August 8, 2025 • 22 mins
August 8, 2025- Gov. Kathy Hochul is promising affordable and reliable energy from new nuclear power plants, but how achievable is her vision? We get a contrarian take from John Howard, the former head of the New York Public Service Commission.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
This is WCNY is the Capital Press Chow, and we're
going to get a bit of a contrarian view on
the energy landscape as opposed to what we've been hearing
from the HOCAL administration recently on the show. And our
guest is John Howard, the former head of the State
Public Service Commission and now an amateur observer here at
Planet Albany. Thanks for making the time, John.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Thanks for having me so.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
One of the things I want to talk about is
the embrace of new nuclear energy by Governor Kathy Hochel,
and we recently had on a representative from the New
York Power Authority, which is being I heard it. We
appreciate listening which has been tasked by the Governor with
developing this new nuclear energy. And one of the things
we asked them about was their history in this space, because,
(00:49):
as listeners may or may not know, NAIPA has a
role in, say, overseeing certain energy projects, most notably hydropower,
and I want to play what we heard from.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
We have a pretty strong history I think of being
given the opportunities and being able to deliver on them.
Many people don't know it. At one point NIPE actually
managed nuclear facilities here in New York. That was, you know,
some time ago, but that is certainly part of our
history and it is something we draw on when we
look towards this new project moving forward.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
What would your sense of that history be and is
that something that the Power Authority should be trumpeting right now?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Well, let's put it this way. At one point in
the Power Authority's history with nuclear power, when they owned
two nuclear plants, they were labeled among the worst operators
of nuclear plants in the nation by the NRC. It's
but it's important to know New York and nuke's going
back sixty five years, we'll start with Governor Rockefeller. Nuclear power,
(01:55):
the new thing of the age. It has had great
promise and what he is idea was to create a entity,
which now is Nicerta, that would build and operate a
nuclear waste reprocessing plant in western New York West Valley.
They did it. They had a contract, I believe Westing
East was the contractor. Guess what a total disaster and
(02:19):
it's still this, the West Valley Demonstration Project it's now called,
and know what it is now a giant waste dump
and clean up project that has cost many many billions.
Even Rockefeller in the late sixties had to admit, Now,
that didn't work out, but we had to try. And
then follow up with that, he became a devotee of
nuclear power on the commercial level or on the state level,
(02:42):
at the assistance an encouragement of then Junior Senator Robert F. Kennedy,
who was part of the Kennedy administration, the New Frontier,
the New Deal, Adams for Peace too Cheap, Demeter, and
his philosophy was the government needs to get into the
this because it will be the kind of resource that
(03:03):
we had like the large dams and the hydropower. This
is going to be good and the government hads to
get into him. He helped persuade the legislature change the
law in the late sixties to allow the power Authority
to get into the nuclear business. And what did they do.
They took over a plant in construction from the Niagramahawk
(03:23):
Power Corporation, the now Fitzpatrick Plant roll that the next governor,
Governor Carrie, what did he do. Well, as we know,
the state was going broke, the city was going broke,
but kan Ed was going broke. So in order to
bail out literally bail out the shareholders of kan ed.
We bought two plants under construction, one of which was
(03:47):
a nuclear plant Indian point three, along with a now
defunct plant conventional power plant in New York City. So
then now the power authority owns two nuclear power plants.
So again, then we rolled to the next governor, Mario Cuomo.
What was his thing fighting the licensing of Shoreham, which
(04:07):
was which was a large nuclear power plant built on
Long Island by the then Long Island Lighting Company that
was never going to be permittable by the State of
New York based on an evacuation plan. No one believed
you could evacuate Long Island safely in the case of
an accident. So what happens, Doctor Catcasinos Then ahead of
(04:29):
the Long is Long Island Lighting Company, Well, we're going
to fire this thing up anyway, and by that time
you'll be contaminated. It'll be just you know, they'll let
have to let us run it. He does it, It
runs it about five percent power for a couple of weeks,
and then he's turned down for his permits, can't get
full operating permits. So what happens The State of New
(04:52):
York buys it. They'd create the Long Island Power Authority,
which buys the nuclear plant brand new to shut it down.
By the way, we still own it. And by the way,
it was the largest takeo of a private asset in
American history.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Well, before we move on, let me reintroduce you for
listeners just joining us. This is the Capital press room,
and we're speaking about the energy landscape in New York,
including the effort to build new nuclear power plants, with
John Howard, the former head of the State Public Service Commission.
So is the takeaway from these decades that nuclear power
(05:30):
is ultimately bad business? Or should the takeaway be that
New York State is not good at launching or running
these projects.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
I was in state government for four decades. There are
certain things we do fabulously, and it turns out certain
things we just don't know beyond our scope, too complicated,
too technically difficult, and clearly nuclear power was the case.
And then we get into the governor for Tacky, who
acknowledges this is not going so good. It was also
the privatezation of all the competitive assets along with the
(06:03):
other conventional power plants, so he decides that we should
sell them. The nuclear power plants owned by the Power Authority,
which was still on an NRC's watch list. They were
still lousily run, as a matter of fact, runs so
badly that there was a point where the NIERCA told
the management of the Power Authority stop running Indian Point.
(06:26):
It didn't run for a year and a half. Was
it hardware issues, was it whatever? No, it was management issues.
So that's the history. So we sell them off. He
sells them off at no profit. We barely cover the
debt service that the Power Authority owned. But what it
did turn out that the new owners, these large fleet owners,
(06:47):
Energy and Constellation, were much better operators. They could run
the plants.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Better, although they do get a lot of subsidies from
the state.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Yes, that they run the better, but that doesn't mean
that they were repetitive. So then comes Governor Andrew Cuomo.
He decides that his two big nuclear issues. One was
closing of Indian Point three, two and three, which again Energy,
the owner said, unless we get some more money, we're
(07:19):
not running. We're gonna have to turn them down anyway.
They also had been out of compliance with our Clean
Water Act enforcement for two decades, and there was a solution.
They could have built two large cooling towers and operated them.
But at that extra capital spate would already take an
already uneconomic asset and make it totally uneconomic. So they
(07:42):
agreed to walk away and decommission again. And then several
years later the Upstate nuclear plants say, hey, look, if
we don't get some money, we're shutting down. But at
that time, when now we're getting to a critical period,
they were our second largest source of zero emission energy,
created lots of jobs and lots of electricity, and there
(08:05):
was nothing on the horizon that was going to replace them.
So he asked the direct to the Public Service Commission
to create a subsidy program in the tune that was
like seven half billion.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Dollars through twenty twenty nine.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Yes, which all New Yorkers pay. By the way, doesn't
matter if you were a customer of the former plants
or whatever. We all pay. So that is the reality.
They only exist with subsidy. So again then we come in,
you know with the Governor Hockel, it sounds the rhetoric
is precisely the same it was in the early sixties.
(08:41):
Did it make it every right now? And did you
even read the history? You know, the glossing over the
history is to me despicable. And then the other thing
that she has, well, we'll have the Public Service Commission
study the rate impacts and see how they went. You
know what, The Public Service Commissions last a thing when
(09:03):
it came to nuclear power develop They allowed both nine
Mile to two and Shoram to be twelve hundred percent
over budget over original cost estimates. The lasts are history.
So again the last time out they did a pretty
crummy job.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Well, moving forward, it seems like we need new energy
sources in New York and if we're going to try
to be at least somewhat environmentally friendly, I think there's
an argument to be made that nuclear is the way
to go. At least that's what proponents would say. They'd
argue it's emissions free, something we're not even going to
(09:41):
get into today. But when it comes to nuclear versus
the alternatives, how do you think it stacks up both
as a reliable source of energy and an affordable one.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
You also have to look at the realities of what
is will it be available in the United States of
America in this short time?
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Yeah, offshore win definitely not available.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Just in a nuclear business.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Oh, yeah, nuclear.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
There's one company, viable company right now, the Westinghouse Hitachi Confab,
who just finished two units in Georgia, again ironically twelve
over cost.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
It's reliable, it's predictable.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
The other major domestic player in this of is the
General Electric Company, and they are pretty far down the
road with their three hundred megawatt design that's which is
about a quarter the size of nine mile two. Okay,
just for perspective.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
So let me get back to the question then, if
not nuclear, if we're going to try to develop new
energy sources in New York to meet growing demand and
an effort to rely less on fossil fuels, what are
the reliable and affordable options?
Speaker 2 (10:56):
So what is the alternative? For instance, we'll go with
Governor Shapiro, he is the first all of the above. Governor.
I'm going to fire up one of the three mile
Island units. That's great, and I'm also going to build, simultaneously,
it's under construction now a conventional power plant system in
Homer City, Pennsylvania, which will be four and a half
(11:17):
gigawatts bigger than all our nukes plus one thousand megawatts combined,
and that will be up and running. In By twenty
twenty six, the cost of even moving to a fossil
based plants is exploded beyond belief. The unit you could
have bought from General Electric two and a half years
(11:38):
ago is now more than double the price that it
was at that time. Their demand is very, very high,
and the waiting list is long, so we're behind the curve.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
And after a quick break, we'll continue our conversation about
the evolving energy landscape in New York with John Howard,
the former head of the New York State Public Service Commission,
And when we get back, we'll talk about energy conservation efforts,
the idea of an all in approach on energy, and
whether New York legislators should consider rolling back the goals
(12:11):
in New York's Climate Leadership and Community Protection Act from
twenty nineteen. If you're enjoying the Capitol Pressroom, please consider
making a recurring contribution to help make our journalism possible.
To show your support, visit Capitolpressroom dot org slash donate.
(12:33):
This is wcny's the Capitol Pressroom and we're continuing our
conversation about the evolving energy landscape in New York with
John Howard, the former head of the New York State
Public Service Commission. Well, it seems like anything we're going
to do then to increase power generation is going to
be exorbitantly expensive. So is it possible we can avoid
developing any new energy sources for now? Or does it
(12:56):
require us the growing demand and the likelihood of even
higher costs in the future. Does it require us to
make some sort of investment now, even if it does
cost a lot of money.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
That is an argument that has been used over the decades.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
I get the pass. But what I'm saying is, what
do we need to do anything right now? Can we
just sit on our hands?
Speaker 2 (13:18):
What we do need is a new plan. It could
be an all of the above plan, but it has
to be realistic.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
But it sounds like everything is expensive. Oh yeah, so
it is no free lunch, right, So what's the best option?
What's the least expensive option?
Speaker 2 (13:32):
The least expensive option is enhance conservation. That's by far
and away the least expensive.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
How far can we get with that, though?
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Oh quite a bit. You know. I could take you
two blocks from here where the housing stock is so
miserably bad that their power bills are probably twice mine,
And I have a bigger house, you know, So that's
that also that puts real people to work short term
right now, you know. Is it glorious No? Does it
hire three thousand steam fitters at one site? No? But
(14:04):
does it help yes?
Speaker 1 (14:05):
And I think what you're talking about there too speaks
to the politics that might drive some of these power
generation sites. You talk about union jobs, you talk about
something that's big and sexy, which might be why someone
leads into one announcement versus By.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
The way, Ontario government is straight upfront about this, their
move to nuclear power is as much about their industrial
policy as it is power generation, meaning that this is
jobs for Canadians. They have lots of domestic content rule
(14:39):
they will whatever they're building with General Actor, I guarantee
most of that will be assembled in some way in Canada.
So they also struck a deal with the French. It
is part of a broader industrial policy that they are
unabashedly We don't have that, but as a matter of fact,
we did used to have. That was another reason why
(14:59):
we like nine to and shore them so much, because
guess where the turbine gen sets. We're going to build
right down the road and connected in New York thousands,
tens of thousands of man hours were devoted to that. Remember,
all these new things that we're buying, we don't build
any of them here, We just put them up.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Well, let's say we do our best to stretch our
energy further than we're going with it right now. Will
that still leave in your mind a deficiency a gap
between what we're producing?
Speaker 2 (15:31):
I think it absolutely is true, a little conventional power
in the right spot, and well fossil fuel power, which,
by the way, the newest plants that you could build
and are being built today are light years cleaner than
our biggest old emitters in this state. And now that
the Wocal administration has acquiesced, if nothing else to new
(15:56):
interstate pipeline capacity to come to New York Long Island
and being in a good example, there's a plant way
to go. It's already been engineered and approved everything that
could be the beneficiary of this new gas supply, which
would greatly enhance the route reliability. But again it's going
to be dicey for a while because we lost time.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Do you think there is a future for offshore wind
if there's changes in the White House or Okay? And
do you think though that this is going to be
an issue where you've got to only advance these projects
if there's a Democrat in the White House, or do
you think in the future a Republican president might approach
(16:37):
it differently.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
That is a big question.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
I mean, it's a big Bethis and these players have
to make you know if you're making a tenure.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Funny that the two other big offshore programs that are
going on right now are in North Carolina and Virginia.
But Dominion and Duke Power clearly have the ear of
the president where they're equinor and ASERTA did not. Again,
it is all possible, but again, each delay makes our
(17:09):
mandates impossible to meet. One of the interesting things you
should follow as it goes along is this case in
Ulster County Supreme brought by the environmental movement, just saying
you're not meeting No, the mandates are the mandates in
the CLCPA. You have to meet them.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Yeah. And the legal challenge where the judge recently heard
first arguments has to do with the role out of
a so called cap ANDed invest program.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
That same judicial district had ruled in a plant when
to do a new conventional power plant and a plant
a damn scammer a place in Orange County. Those permits
were rejected based because they were not conforming to the CLCPA.
I think the first thing is we may have to
amend that. We will not it may have to amend
(17:56):
the CLCPA at least to calm the waters, stop the
litigatory run around.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
You envisioned this democratic state legislature rolling back the language
and the Climate Leadership Community Protection Act.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Well, either that or they embrace these lawsuits and make
us invest in things. You know, remember this what next
year's budget's going to be about. By the way, it's
hard choices.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
And I think though, you make a good point when
you say budget, because I could see that language being
tucked into oh the budget.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
I'm not abandoning it, just kicking the can. Change the dates,
not something that this legislature that doesn't have a history
of doing over and over and over again. And how
do we deal with affordability? By the way, I think,
in many respects politically and certainly demographically, more important to
people than the climate.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
Yeah, oh yeah, Well, sticking with that idea of affordability.
Before leaving Albany, state lawmakers approved legislation dealing with the
so called one hundred foot rule, dealing with who pays
the cost of that hookup to natural gas within one
hundred feet, something currently now subsidized by the ratepayers of
(19:10):
the utility. Do you think that's going to matter at
all if the governor signed it?
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Depends on where you are. Okay, we'll just take Westchester
County for example, right where the average home the median
price of a home is one point one million dollars,
and the median price of a brand new home is
higher than that. So this one hundred foot connection is
a deminimus.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
Cost or whatever you're pay it yourself.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Well, it's not a big number compared to your fancy kitchen.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
So that second island correct.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
So there's that The electrification is going to be every
building has to be all electric line. But what we
don't have necessarily, and I think this is a centator
Helming's argument because particularly represents the water Town area. Ye
some large housing projects that want to get built, but
(20:04):
the host utility in this case, National Grid says sorry,
we just don't have the capacity to serve it. So
you push on a balloon on this side, it's going
to pop out on the other side. So many of
the things that were very well intentioned and were probably
the right things to do just didn't work out, and
I think everyone is shocked about the price tag.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Well, finally, is there anything that the Trump administration or
the GOP led Congress is doing that you think will
ultimately be beneficial to New York's energy landscape either in
terms of well.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
They've traded large subsidies for renewables for large subsidies for
nuke and conventional power. That's what they've done. Okay, they
made it cheaper to build through subsidy nuclear plants and
conventional power plants also through subsidy, and the great the
new Reconciliation Bill is just filled with credits and stuff
(20:59):
to new operators.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Well, then, coming back to our start of our conversation,
if the federal government is incentivizing nuclear energy, doesn't it
make sense for New York to lean into that at
least for now?
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Yeah, we'll see. Also, they're supposed to help underwrite that
ZECH payment that was in the Biden administration. This is
a zero mission credit, correct that we all paid that
seven and a half billion dollars that was going to
go down because the federal government created a new operating
subsidy for existing nuclear plans, so that has continued. So
(21:31):
we will just to see how much that balance is out.
And that's for what we got. It's unclear on what
the benefit is for what we haven't got yet.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Well, we've been speaking with John Howard. He is the
former head of the State Public Service Commission and has
a lot of opinions about the energy landscape today. John,
thank you so much for making the time. I really
appreciate it great.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Thank you so much. You know, before we go, history
is important, so we don't do bad things.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Twice I think you're gonna say, history always repeats itself.
Here a planet opening that too. Support for the Capitol
press room was provided by New York State United Teachers,
a statewide union of nearly seven hundred thousand professionals in
education and healthcare.
This is WCNY is the Capital Press Chow, and we're
going to get a bit of a contrarian view on
the energy landscape as opposed to what we've been hearing
from the HOCAL administration recently on the show. And our
guest is John Howard, the former head of the State
Public Service Commission and now an amateur observer here at
Planet Albany. Thanks for making the time, John.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Thanks for having me so.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
One of the things I want to talk about is
the embrace of new nuclear energy by Governor Kathy Hochel,
and we recently had on a representative from the New
York Power Authority, which is being I heard it. We
appreciate listening which has been tasked by the Governor with
developing this new nuclear energy. And one of the things
we asked them about was their history in this space, because,
(00:49):
as listeners may or may not know, NAIPA has a
role in, say, overseeing certain energy projects, most notably hydropower,
and I want to play what we heard from.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
We have a pretty strong history I think of being
given the opportunities and being able to deliver on them.
Many people don't know it. At one point NIPE actually
managed nuclear facilities here in New York. That was, you know,
some time ago, but that is certainly part of our
history and it is something we draw on when we
look towards this new project moving forward.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
What would your sense of that history be and is
that something that the Power Authority should be trumpeting right now?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Well, let's put it this way. At one point in
the Power Authority's history with nuclear power, when they owned
two nuclear plants, they were labeled among the worst operators
of nuclear plants in the nation by the NRC. It's
but it's important to know New York and nuke's going
back sixty five years, we'll start with Governor Rockefeller. Nuclear power,
(01:55):
the new thing of the age. It has had great
promise and what he is idea was to create a entity,
which now is Nicerta, that would build and operate a
nuclear waste reprocessing plant in western New York West Valley.
They did it. They had a contract, I believe Westing
East was the contractor. Guess what a total disaster and
(02:19):
it's still this, the West Valley Demonstration Project it's now called,
and know what it is now a giant waste dump
and clean up project that has cost many many billions.
Even Rockefeller in the late sixties had to admit, Now,
that didn't work out, but we had to try. And
then follow up with that, he became a devotee of
nuclear power on the commercial level or on the state level,
(02:42):
at the assistance an encouragement of then Junior Senator Robert F. Kennedy,
who was part of the Kennedy administration, the New Frontier,
the New Deal, Adams for Peace too Cheap, Demeter, and
his philosophy was the government needs to get into the
this because it will be the kind of resource that
(03:03):
we had like the large dams and the hydropower. This
is going to be good and the government hads to
get into him. He helped persuade the legislature change the
law in the late sixties to allow the power Authority
to get into the nuclear business. And what did they do.
They took over a plant in construction from the Niagramahawk
(03:23):
Power Corporation, the now Fitzpatrick Plant roll that the next governor,
Governor Carrie, what did he do. Well, as we know,
the state was going broke, the city was going broke,
but kan Ed was going broke. So in order to
bail out literally bail out the shareholders of kan ed.
We bought two plants under construction, one of which was
(03:47):
a nuclear plant Indian point three, along with a now
defunct plant conventional power plant in New York City. So
then now the power authority owns two nuclear power plants.
So again, then we rolled to the next governor, Mario Cuomo.
What was his thing fighting the licensing of Shoreham, which
(04:07):
was which was a large nuclear power plant built on
Long Island by the then Long Island Lighting Company that
was never going to be permittable by the State of
New York based on an evacuation plan. No one believed
you could evacuate Long Island safely in the case of
an accident. So what happens, Doctor Catcasinos Then ahead of
(04:29):
the Long is Long Island Lighting Company, Well, we're going
to fire this thing up anyway, and by that time
you'll be contaminated. It'll be just you know, they'll let
have to let us run it. He does it, It
runs it about five percent power for a couple of weeks,
and then he's turned down for his permits, can't get
full operating permits. So what happens The State of New
(04:52):
York buys it. They'd create the Long Island Power Authority,
which buys the nuclear plant brand new to shut it down.
By the way, we still own it. And by the way,
it was the largest takeo of a private asset in
American history.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Well, before we move on, let me reintroduce you for
listeners just joining us. This is the Capital press room,
and we're speaking about the energy landscape in New York,
including the effort to build new nuclear power plants, with
John Howard, the former head of the State Public Service Commission.
So is the takeaway from these decades that nuclear power
(05:30):
is ultimately bad business? Or should the takeaway be that
New York State is not good at launching or running
these projects.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
I was in state government for four decades. There are
certain things we do fabulously, and it turns out certain
things we just don't know beyond our scope, too complicated,
too technically difficult, and clearly nuclear power was the case.
And then we get into the governor for Tacky, who
acknowledges this is not going so good. It was also
the privatezation of all the competitive assets along with the
(06:03):
other conventional power plants, so he decides that we should
sell them. The nuclear power plants owned by the Power Authority,
which was still on an NRC's watch list. They were
still lousily run, as a matter of fact, runs so
badly that there was a point where the NIERCA told
the management of the Power Authority stop running Indian Point.
(06:26):
It didn't run for a year and a half. Was
it hardware issues, was it whatever? No, it was management issues.
So that's the history. So we sell them off. He
sells them off at no profit. We barely cover the
debt service that the Power Authority owned. But what it
did turn out that the new owners, these large fleet owners,
(06:47):
Energy and Constellation, were much better operators. They could run
the plants.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Better, although they do get a lot of subsidies from
the state.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Yes, that they run the better, but that doesn't mean
that they were repetitive. So then comes Governor Andrew Cuomo.
He decides that his two big nuclear issues. One was
closing of Indian Point three, two and three, which again Energy,
the owner said, unless we get some more money, we're
(07:19):
not running. We're gonna have to turn them down anyway.
They also had been out of compliance with our Clean
Water Act enforcement for two decades, and there was a solution.
They could have built two large cooling towers and operated them.
But at that extra capital spate would already take an
already uneconomic asset and make it totally uneconomic. So they
(07:42):
agreed to walk away and decommission again. And then several
years later the Upstate nuclear plants say, hey, look, if
we don't get some money, we're shutting down. But at
that time, when now we're getting to a critical period,
they were our second largest source of zero emission energy,
created lots of jobs and lots of electricity, and there
(08:05):
was nothing on the horizon that was going to replace them.
So he asked the direct to the Public Service Commission
to create a subsidy program in the tune that was
like seven half billion.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Dollars through twenty twenty nine.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Yes, which all New Yorkers pay. By the way, doesn't
matter if you were a customer of the former plants
or whatever. We all pay. So that is the reality.
They only exist with subsidy. So again then we come in,
you know with the Governor Hockel, it sounds the rhetoric
is precisely the same it was in the early sixties.
(08:41):
Did it make it every right now? And did you
even read the history? You know, the glossing over the
history is to me despicable. And then the other thing
that she has, well, we'll have the Public Service Commission
study the rate impacts and see how they went. You
know what, The Public Service Commissions last a thing when
(09:03):
it came to nuclear power develop They allowed both nine
Mile to two and Shoram to be twelve hundred percent
over budget over original cost estimates. The lasts are history.
So again the last time out they did a pretty
crummy job.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Well, moving forward, it seems like we need new energy
sources in New York and if we're going to try
to be at least somewhat environmentally friendly, I think there's
an argument to be made that nuclear is the way
to go. At least that's what proponents would say. They'd
argue it's emissions free, something we're not even going to
(09:41):
get into today. But when it comes to nuclear versus
the alternatives, how do you think it stacks up both
as a reliable source of energy and an affordable one.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
You also have to look at the realities of what
is will it be available in the United States of
America in this short time?
Speaker 1 (10:00):
Yeah, offshore win definitely not available.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Just in a nuclear business.
Speaker 1 (10:03):
Oh, yeah, nuclear.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
There's one company, viable company right now, the Westinghouse Hitachi Confab,
who just finished two units in Georgia, again ironically twelve
over cost.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
It's reliable, it's predictable.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
The other major domestic player in this of is the
General Electric Company, and they are pretty far down the
road with their three hundred megawatt design that's which is
about a quarter the size of nine mile two. Okay,
just for perspective.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
So let me get back to the question then, if
not nuclear, if we're going to try to develop new
energy sources in New York to meet growing demand and
an effort to rely less on fossil fuels, what are
the reliable and affordable options?
Speaker 2 (10:56):
So what is the alternative? For instance, we'll go with
Governor Shapiro, he is the first all of the above. Governor.
I'm going to fire up one of the three mile
Island units. That's great, and I'm also going to build, simultaneously,
it's under construction now a conventional power plant system in
Homer City, Pennsylvania, which will be four and a half
(11:17):
gigawatts bigger than all our nukes plus one thousand megawatts combined,
and that will be up and running. In By twenty
twenty six, the cost of even moving to a fossil
based plants is exploded beyond belief. The unit you could
have bought from General Electric two and a half years
(11:38):
ago is now more than double the price that it
was at that time. Their demand is very, very high,
and the waiting list is long, so we're behind the curve.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
And after a quick break, we'll continue our conversation about
the evolving energy landscape in New York with John Howard,
the former head of the New York State Public Service Commission,
And when we get back, we'll talk about energy conservation efforts,
the idea of an all in approach on energy, and
whether New York legislators should consider rolling back the goals
(12:11):
in New York's Climate Leadership and Community Protection Act from
twenty nineteen. If you're enjoying the Capitol Pressroom, please consider
making a recurring contribution to help make our journalism possible.
To show your support, visit Capitolpressroom dot org slash donate.
(12:33):
This is wcny's the Capitol Pressroom and we're continuing our
conversation about the evolving energy landscape in New York with
John Howard, the former head of the New York State
Public Service Commission. Well, it seems like anything we're going
to do then to increase power generation is going to
be exorbitantly expensive. So is it possible we can avoid
developing any new energy sources for now? Or does it
(12:56):
require us the growing demand and the likelihood of even
higher costs in the future. Does it require us to
make some sort of investment now, even if it does
cost a lot of money.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
That is an argument that has been used over the decades.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
I get the pass. But what I'm saying is, what
do we need to do anything right now? Can we
just sit on our hands?
Speaker 2 (13:18):
What we do need is a new plan. It could
be an all of the above plan, but it has
to be realistic.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
But it sounds like everything is expensive. Oh yeah, so
it is no free lunch, right, So what's the best option?
What's the least expensive option?
Speaker 2 (13:32):
The least expensive option is enhance conservation. That's by far
and away the least expensive.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
How far can we get with that, though?
Speaker 2 (13:41):
Oh quite a bit. You know. I could take you
two blocks from here where the housing stock is so
miserably bad that their power bills are probably twice mine,
And I have a bigger house, you know, So that's
that also that puts real people to work short term
right now, you know. Is it glorious No? Does it
hire three thousand steam fitters at one site? No? But
(14:04):
does it help yes?
Speaker 1 (14:05):
And I think what you're talking about there too speaks
to the politics that might drive some of these power
generation sites. You talk about union jobs, you talk about
something that's big and sexy, which might be why someone
leads into one announcement versus By.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
The way, Ontario government is straight upfront about this, their
move to nuclear power is as much about their industrial
policy as it is power generation, meaning that this is
jobs for Canadians. They have lots of domestic content rule
(14:39):
they will whatever they're building with General Actor, I guarantee
most of that will be assembled in some way in Canada.
So they also struck a deal with the French. It
is part of a broader industrial policy that they are
unabashedly We don't have that, but as a matter of fact,
we did used to have. That was another reason why
(14:59):
we like nine to and shore them so much, because
guess where the turbine gen sets. We're going to build
right down the road and connected in New York thousands,
tens of thousands of man hours were devoted to that. Remember,
all these new things that we're buying, we don't build
any of them here, We just put them up.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Well, let's say we do our best to stretch our
energy further than we're going with it right now. Will
that still leave in your mind a deficiency a gap
between what we're producing?
Speaker 2 (15:31):
I think it absolutely is true, a little conventional power
in the right spot, and well fossil fuel power, which,
by the way, the newest plants that you could build
and are being built today are light years cleaner than
our biggest old emitters in this state. And now that
the Wocal administration has acquiesced, if nothing else to new
(15:56):
interstate pipeline capacity to come to New York Long Island
and being in a good example, there's a plant way
to go. It's already been engineered and approved everything that
could be the beneficiary of this new gas supply, which
would greatly enhance the route reliability. But again it's going
to be dicey for a while because we lost time.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
Do you think there is a future for offshore wind
if there's changes in the White House or Okay? And
do you think though that this is going to be
an issue where you've got to only advance these projects
if there's a Democrat in the White House, or do
you think in the future a Republican president might approach
(16:37):
it differently.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
That is a big question.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
I mean, it's a big Bethis and these players have
to make you know if you're making a tenure.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Funny that the two other big offshore programs that are
going on right now are in North Carolina and Virginia.
But Dominion and Duke Power clearly have the ear of
the president where they're equinor and ASERTA did not. Again,
it is all possible, but again, each delay makes our
(17:09):
mandates impossible to meet. One of the interesting things you
should follow as it goes along is this case in
Ulster County Supreme brought by the environmental movement, just saying
you're not meeting No, the mandates are the mandates in
the CLCPA. You have to meet them.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
Yeah. And the legal challenge where the judge recently heard
first arguments has to do with the role out of
a so called cap ANDed invest program.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
That same judicial district had ruled in a plant when
to do a new conventional power plant and a plant
a damn scammer a place in Orange County. Those permits
were rejected based because they were not conforming to the CLCPA.
I think the first thing is we may have to
amend that. We will not it may have to amend
(17:56):
the CLCPA at least to calm the waters, stop the
litigatory run around.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
You envisioned this democratic state legislature rolling back the language
and the Climate Leadership Community Protection Act.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Well, either that or they embrace these lawsuits and make
us invest in things. You know, remember this what next
year's budget's going to be about. By the way, it's
hard choices.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
And I think though, you make a good point when
you say budget, because I could see that language being
tucked into oh the budget.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
I'm not abandoning it, just kicking the can. Change the dates,
not something that this legislature that doesn't have a history
of doing over and over and over again. And how
do we deal with affordability? By the way, I think,
in many respects politically and certainly demographically, more important to
people than the climate.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
Yeah, oh yeah, Well, sticking with that idea of affordability.
Before leaving Albany, state lawmakers approved legislation dealing with the
so called one hundred foot rule, dealing with who pays
the cost of that hookup to natural gas within one
hundred feet, something currently now subsidized by the ratepayers of
(19:10):
the utility. Do you think that's going to matter at
all if the governor signed it?
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Depends on where you are. Okay, we'll just take Westchester
County for example, right where the average home the median
price of a home is one point one million dollars,
and the median price of a brand new home is
higher than that. So this one hundred foot connection is
a deminimus.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
Cost or whatever you're pay it yourself.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Well, it's not a big number compared to your fancy kitchen.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
So that second island correct.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
So there's that The electrification is going to be every
building has to be all electric line. But what we
don't have necessarily, and I think this is a centator
Helming's argument because particularly represents the water Town area. Ye
some large housing projects that want to get built, but
(20:04):
the host utility in this case, National Grid says sorry,
we just don't have the capacity to serve it. So
you push on a balloon on this side, it's going
to pop out on the other side. So many of
the things that were very well intentioned and were probably
the right things to do just didn't work out, and
I think everyone is shocked about the price tag.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Well, finally, is there anything that the Trump administration or
the GOP led Congress is doing that you think will
ultimately be beneficial to New York's energy landscape either in
terms of well.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
They've traded large subsidies for renewables for large subsidies for
nuke and conventional power. That's what they've done. Okay, they
made it cheaper to build through subsidy nuclear plants and
conventional power plants also through subsidy, and the great the
new Reconciliation Bill is just filled with credits and stuff
(20:59):
to new operators.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Well, then, coming back to our start of our conversation,
if the federal government is incentivizing nuclear energy, doesn't it
make sense for New York to lean into that at
least for now?
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Yeah, we'll see. Also, they're supposed to help underwrite that
ZECH payment that was in the Biden administration. This is
a zero mission credit, correct that we all paid that
seven and a half billion dollars that was going to
go down because the federal government created a new operating
subsidy for existing nuclear plans, so that has continued. So
(21:31):
we will just to see how much that balance is out.
And that's for what we got. It's unclear on what
the benefit is for what we haven't got yet.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Well, we've been speaking with John Howard. He is the
former head of the State Public Service Commission and has
a lot of opinions about the energy landscape today. John,
thank you so much for making the time. I really
appreciate it great.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Thank you so much. You know, before we go, history
is important, so we don't do bad things.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Twice I think you're gonna say, history always repeats itself.
Here a planet opening that too. Support for the Capitol
press room was provided by New York State United Teachers,
a statewide union of nearly seven hundred thousand professionals in
education and healthcare.
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