August 14, 2025 • 9 mins
Aug. 14, 2025- In a Dispatches from Planet Albany excerpt we check in with Blair Horner, senior policy advisor for the New York Public Interest Research Group, to get his take on efforts to do mid-decade redistricting and consider whether good government groups are losing influence in Albany.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
This is WCNIS the Capitol press Room, and we're going
to share an excerpt from an upcoming episode of the
Dispatches for Planet Albany podcast, which considered the effort by
New York Democrats to amend the state constitution in order
to allow for mid decade redistricting of congressional districts in
response to Republicans in red states at the behalt of
President Trump considering drawing their lines prior to the next census.
(00:26):
We spoke to Blair Horner, senior policy advisor for the
New York Public Interest Research Group and a long time
good government fixture here in the halls of Albany about
potentially changing the redistricting process, which was prescribed by a
twenty fourteen state amendment approved by New York voters. How
big of a deal from a good government perspective is
the effort in Albany right now, which seems like it's
(00:49):
in its infancy to basically undermine the constitutional redistricting amendment
from twenty fourteen.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Well, I mean so broadly speaking. Of course, the state
can't do anything about it institution before the twenty twenty
sixth election, and that's what this is supposedly being triggered
by Texas, Missouri, possibly Indiana possibly changing their rules at
the request of the President to basically rig their elections
to help get Republicans elected to the House. And so
(01:16):
Democratic governors to some extent have decided to sort of
make the counter argument, and Governor Hokals made the argument
here in New York that it's political war and that
she wants to change redistricting in New York now, she
can't do it before the twenty twenty sixth elections. So
we opposed the twenty fourteen election constitutional amendment because we
(01:36):
thought it would end up being a mess. Unfortunately, we
were right. And so if the legislature and the governor
want to change the constitution to make redistricting work better,
we're all for that, and they have time to do it.
They should take their time and do it right, not
have a rush to judgment.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Sure, that's not what's on the table though, and I
have to imagine'll.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
See what happens in six months, right, I mean, they
don't have to do anything right away, and if they
haven't from now until June. The governor made the bill
that was in is about allowing them for the resolution
that's in is about allowing them to have mid sensus,
mid ten year changes to redistricting. And then the governor says,
you might want to get rid of the Bipartisan Redistricting Commission.
(02:15):
Now that's not in the resolution, and so maybe the
door is open and they can fix it. That's fine
with us. It's about time to fix it.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
I mean, no offense, but you sound like you have
some misplaced optimism here.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Well, you were asking me for about good government groups. Sure,
and I've been doing it for forty something years. Here's
the reason. Right, Maybe it's misplaced, but I'm an optimist.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
But I have to imagine while you were not on
board with a twenty fourteen amendment, it's probably better than
what we had in the past. Or do you think
that getting rid of the twenty fourteen amendments not that
big of a deal.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Well, changing the twenty fourteen amendment to actually do what
it was advertised to do is what we support the
twenty fourteen amendment. And they wrote it into the constitution
say it's an independent restricting commission, which it is not.
A court of law said that that it is not
an independent redistrict So bipartisan one and it's designed to
have you know, basically gridlock, and that's what we got,
(03:11):
and so that has to be fixed. If there are
circumstances under which a mids ten year period of time
where you know, you would want to change the lines, again,
like mass change in population in one part of the state,
well let's talk about that. But it shouldn't be based
on some other state saying they're going to do redistricting
and that that triggers something in New York, because that
happens all the time.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
So there's the component of the amendment that deals with
the redistricting Commission. But isn't there also language dealing with, say,
a partisan gerrymandering in the constitution now as a result
of that change, I mean, that seems like a meaningful
consequence that we saw actually play out in some of
the court rulings dealing with the congressional maps. And I
(03:52):
have to imagine that if democrats here in Albany are
going to pry open the state constitution, that's going to
be something that gets changed as well.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
It's possible, I mean, it's certainly possible that Democrats are
just disease likely to want to redistrict things in a
way that benefits them, as Republicans would when they're in charge.
So I'm not saying that everything in the state Constitution
that was put in twenty fourteen is bad, but there's
no priorities setting for what matters most when you're doing it.
And the fact that the courts had to step in
(04:21):
and essentially do the redistricting themselves, I think underscores the
fact that the Constitution as it's written is a mess.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
So I want to play a clip from earlier in
August with the governor talking about redistricting, and here's how
she sort of defended the attacks that she knows she's
going to get and is getting from good government groups
niperg Aside, with.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
All due respect to the good government groups, politics is
a political process.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
What does that mean to you? I mean, to me,
it sounds like she's saying drawing the lions is separate
from governing, and this is about politics, and therefore all's
fair in love and war.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
So pipe down, well, I mean, it's you know, we'll
get into this. I assume a little bit more when
we talk about the power of good government groups. But
they love us when we're with them, and they hate
us when we're not. And in this particular case, I
totally disagree with the governor's analysis. It's not about politics.
It's supposed to be about where people live and keeping
(05:27):
communities of interest together and representing and making sure that
you have one person, one vote. It's not about politics.
It's not supposed to be, well, how do we rid
the system to benefit one political party over another. There
are lots of people in America, the vast majority of
whom do not care one way or the other with
Democrats or Republicans are thinking about, and why shouldn't their
(05:48):
interests be the most important? And in New York, the blanks,
the people who are not registered in any political party,
outnumber Republicans, and yet they have no seat at the
table in redistricting. So the system should be about the
publics best interest, not the political party's best interests. And
so that means we disagree with the governor on her analysis.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
So one view on what the New York Democrats are
trying to do is that Democrats need to fight back,
that they need to take a majority in Congress because
this is about saving democracy, and that's not necessarily a
partisan take. That's kind of what common cause. Another Good
Government group has argued in their case for not intervening
(06:29):
or making a hissy fit about what California is doing.
The alternative view from a good government group, Reinvent Albany,
was cited Inspector News saying, we fundamentally don't think that
New York is going to save American democracy by jerry mandering.
Where do you come down on this.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Well, again, I think the redistricting process in New York
needs to be overhauled. So that's they should do that.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
With a lens toward helping one party or another.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
The lens toward representing the interests of the twenty million
people live here, and that's the most important thing. So
there's that if you want to try to And they're
talking about the twenty twenty six election cycle, so when
nothing that changes in the constitution is going to impact
the twenty twenty six election cycle. So if you really
want to meaningfully do something and use if the governor
want to use their bully pulpit to do this, let's
(07:18):
make the New York Republican members of Congress, the House
members say they're not gonna stand for this, because after all,
it is also if the Democrats have their way, it
will be their next on the chopping block, and certainly
from the perspective, they should stand up for democracy. So
I would argue to push the New York Republicans members
(07:38):
of the House to tell the President and the Speaker
Johnson that if this that they should pull back, and
if they don't, they're willing to hold up the federal
budget in order to save democracy. That is actually something meaningful,
that is actually something that could happen given them razors
and the majority of the House, and that's something that
should be the priority of if you want to stop
(07:58):
what's happening, Nash, the race to the bottom isn't the answer.
We need to appeal to people's better motives or even
their basic political motives in New York and to argue
to stop what's going on in the country. And they
can do it. There are seven members of the House
in New York. The razor thin majority in the House
means they need every single one of those votes in
(08:19):
order to pull off the continuing Resolution at the end
of September, and they should use their leverage instead of
you know, we've heard from some members of Congress the Republicans, Oh,
look what Democrats doing New York. That's you know, that's
you know, don't blame me, blame the guy behind the tree.
You have to do something now, and doing something now
(08:41):
means standing up to the president, showing some political courage
that they want to stop what's going on.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
And for the rest of our conversation with Blair Horner,
the senior policy advisor for the New York Public Interest
Research Group, where we talk about the waxing and waning
power of good government groups here in the Halls of Albany.
Check out our dispatches from Planet Albany podcast, which you
can find at Capitol Pressroom dot org or wherever you
download your favorite podcasts. Support for the Capital Press Room
(09:41):
is provided by New York State United Teachers, a statewide
union of nearly seven hundred thousand professionals in education and healthcare.
This is WCNIS the Capitol press Room, and we're going
to share an excerpt from an upcoming episode of the
Dispatches for Planet Albany podcast, which considered the effort by
New York Democrats to amend the state constitution in order
to allow for mid decade redistricting of congressional districts in
response to Republicans in red states at the behalt of
President Trump considering drawing their lines prior to the next census.
(00:26):
We spoke to Blair Horner, senior policy advisor for the
New York Public Interest Research Group and a long time
good government fixture here in the halls of Albany about
potentially changing the redistricting process, which was prescribed by a
twenty fourteen state amendment approved by New York voters. How
big of a deal from a good government perspective is
the effort in Albany right now, which seems like it's
(00:49):
in its infancy to basically undermine the constitutional redistricting amendment
from twenty fourteen.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Well, I mean so broadly speaking. Of course, the state
can't do anything about it institution before the twenty twenty
sixth election, and that's what this is supposedly being triggered
by Texas, Missouri, possibly Indiana possibly changing their rules at
the request of the President to basically rig their elections
to help get Republicans elected to the House. And so
(01:16):
Democratic governors to some extent have decided to sort of
make the counter argument, and Governor Hokals made the argument
here in New York that it's political war and that
she wants to change redistricting in New York now, she
can't do it before the twenty twenty sixth elections. So
we opposed the twenty fourteen election constitutional amendment because we
(01:36):
thought it would end up being a mess. Unfortunately, we
were right. And so if the legislature and the governor
want to change the constitution to make redistricting work better,
we're all for that, and they have time to do it.
They should take their time and do it right, not
have a rush to judgment.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Sure, that's not what's on the table though, and I
have to imagine'll.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
See what happens in six months, right, I mean, they
don't have to do anything right away, and if they
haven't from now until June. The governor made the bill
that was in is about allowing them for the resolution
that's in is about allowing them to have mid sensus,
mid ten year changes to redistricting. And then the governor says,
you might want to get rid of the Bipartisan Redistricting Commission.
(02:15):
Now that's not in the resolution, and so maybe the
door is open and they can fix it. That's fine
with us. It's about time to fix it.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
I mean, no offense, but you sound like you have
some misplaced optimism here.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Well, you were asking me for about good government groups. Sure,
and I've been doing it for forty something years. Here's
the reason. Right, Maybe it's misplaced, but I'm an optimist.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
But I have to imagine while you were not on
board with a twenty fourteen amendment, it's probably better than
what we had in the past. Or do you think
that getting rid of the twenty fourteen amendments not that
big of a deal.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Well, changing the twenty fourteen amendment to actually do what
it was advertised to do is what we support the
twenty fourteen amendment. And they wrote it into the constitution
say it's an independent restricting commission, which it is not.
A court of law said that that it is not
an independent redistrict So bipartisan one and it's designed to
have you know, basically gridlock, and that's what we got,
(03:11):
and so that has to be fixed. If there are
circumstances under which a mids ten year period of time
where you know, you would want to change the lines, again,
like mass change in population in one part of the state,
well let's talk about that. But it shouldn't be based
on some other state saying they're going to do redistricting
and that that triggers something in New York, because that
happens all the time.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
So there's the component of the amendment that deals with
the redistricting Commission. But isn't there also language dealing with, say,
a partisan gerrymandering in the constitution now as a result
of that change, I mean, that seems like a meaningful
consequence that we saw actually play out in some of
the court rulings dealing with the congressional maps. And I
(03:52):
have to imagine that if democrats here in Albany are
going to pry open the state constitution, that's going to
be something that gets changed as well.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
It's possible, I mean, it's certainly possible that Democrats are
just disease likely to want to redistrict things in a
way that benefits them, as Republicans would when they're in charge.
So I'm not saying that everything in the state Constitution
that was put in twenty fourteen is bad, but there's
no priorities setting for what matters most when you're doing it.
And the fact that the courts had to step in
(04:21):
and essentially do the redistricting themselves, I think underscores the
fact that the Constitution as it's written is a mess.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
So I want to play a clip from earlier in
August with the governor talking about redistricting, and here's how
she sort of defended the attacks that she knows she's
going to get and is getting from good government groups
niperg Aside, with.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
All due respect to the good government groups, politics is
a political process.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
What does that mean to you? I mean, to me,
it sounds like she's saying drawing the lions is separate
from governing, and this is about politics, and therefore all's
fair in love and war.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
So pipe down, well, I mean, it's you know, we'll
get into this. I assume a little bit more when
we talk about the power of good government groups. But
they love us when we're with them, and they hate
us when we're not. And in this particular case, I
totally disagree with the governor's analysis. It's not about politics.
It's supposed to be about where people live and keeping
(05:27):
communities of interest together and representing and making sure that
you have one person, one vote. It's not about politics.
It's not supposed to be, well, how do we rid
the system to benefit one political party over another. There
are lots of people in America, the vast majority of
whom do not care one way or the other with
Democrats or Republicans are thinking about, and why shouldn't their
(05:48):
interests be the most important? And in New York, the blanks,
the people who are not registered in any political party,
outnumber Republicans, and yet they have no seat at the
table in redistricting. So the system should be about the
publics best interest, not the political party's best interests. And
so that means we disagree with the governor on her analysis.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
So one view on what the New York Democrats are
trying to do is that Democrats need to fight back,
that they need to take a majority in Congress because
this is about saving democracy, and that's not necessarily a
partisan take. That's kind of what common cause. Another Good
Government group has argued in their case for not intervening
(06:29):
or making a hissy fit about what California is doing.
The alternative view from a good government group, Reinvent Albany,
was cited Inspector News saying, we fundamentally don't think that
New York is going to save American democracy by jerry mandering.
Where do you come down on this.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
Well, again, I think the redistricting process in New York
needs to be overhauled. So that's they should do that.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
With a lens toward helping one party or another.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
The lens toward representing the interests of the twenty million
people live here, and that's the most important thing. So
there's that if you want to try to And they're
talking about the twenty twenty six election cycle, so when
nothing that changes in the constitution is going to impact
the twenty twenty six election cycle. So if you really
want to meaningfully do something and use if the governor
want to use their bully pulpit to do this, let's
(07:18):
make the New York Republican members of Congress, the House
members say they're not gonna stand for this, because after all,
it is also if the Democrats have their way, it
will be their next on the chopping block, and certainly
from the perspective, they should stand up for democracy. So
I would argue to push the New York Republicans members
(07:38):
of the House to tell the President and the Speaker
Johnson that if this that they should pull back, and
if they don't, they're willing to hold up the federal
budget in order to save democracy. That is actually something meaningful,
that is actually something that could happen given them razors
and the majority of the House, and that's something that
should be the priority of if you want to stop
(07:58):
what's happening, Nash, the race to the bottom isn't the answer.
We need to appeal to people's better motives or even
their basic political motives in New York and to argue
to stop what's going on in the country. And they
can do it. There are seven members of the House
in New York. The razor thin majority in the House
means they need every single one of those votes in
(08:19):
order to pull off the continuing Resolution at the end
of September, and they should use their leverage instead of
you know, we've heard from some members of Congress the Republicans, Oh,
look what Democrats doing New York. That's you know, that's
you know, don't blame me, blame the guy behind the tree.
You have to do something now, and doing something now
(08:41):
means standing up to the president, showing some political courage
that they want to stop what's going on.
Speaker 1 (08:47):
And for the rest of our conversation with Blair Horner,
the senior policy advisor for the New York Public Interest
Research Group, where we talk about the waxing and waning
power of good government groups here in the Halls of Albany.
Check out our dispatches from Planet Albany podcast, which you
can find at Capitol Pressroom dot org or wherever you
download your favorite podcasts. Support for the Capital Press Room
(09:41):
is provided by New York State United Teachers, a statewide
union of nearly seven hundred thousand professionals in education and healthcare.
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