August 11, 2025 • 12 mins
August 11, 2025- New York Attorney General Letitia James is recommending the state narrowly restrict when police can engage in high-speed pursuits. We discuss the risk of police chases with Josh Parker, deputy director of policy for The Policing Project at NYU School of Law.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
This summer, New York State Attorney General Letitia James issued
a report on high speed police chases and is recommending
law enforcement more broadly restrict the use of these pursuits,
which can be extremely dangerous for the public. To discuss
the issue, including the proposed reforms, we're joined on the
Capitol press room by Josh Parker, Deputy Director of Policy
(00:25):
for the Policing Project at NYU School of Law. Welcome
to the show, Josh.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Thank you. We're happy to be here, glad.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
To have you. Well for starters, what actually constitutes a
high speed police pursuit? Because I doubt what I see
on the highway sometimes, say when the state troopers go
in eighty miles an hour to nab a speeder actually counts.
So what is it that we should think of when
we're talking about high speed police pursuits.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
When we're trying to define pursuits in policy or regulation,
we don't distinguish between high speed versus low speed, because
a danger could be posed regardless if someone is fleeing
the police and won't stop even if there's another vehicle
in front of them or there's a bystander on the sidewalk.
So the generally accepted definition of a pursuit is when
(01:14):
the police signal a driver to stop, they put their
emergency lights on, their sirens on, and the driver continues
driving and doesn't stop. And if the police vehicle continues
to follow or chase the vehicle for more than a
few moments, that constitutes a pursuit. Another very commonly term
(01:35):
for a pursuit is it chase, a car chase, a
police chase.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
And from your perspective, when does a police pursuit become dangerous?
Are there circumstances where they are more dangerous than others?
Speaker 2 (01:49):
For example, sure police pursuits are more dangerous. Let's say
if they take place on a crowded highway during rush
hour where there's lots of calls and lots of potential
to collide with other vehicles. Then possibly on a rural
road at night when no one else is on the
road there are on bystanders around. With that said, as
(02:12):
a general rule, police pursuits are dangerous. In twenty twenty three,
the Police Executive Research Forum and the Federal Department of
Justice issued a comprehensive white paper. They basically gathered a
working group of ten police lieutenants in chiefs from across
the country and had an academic expert on police pursuits
(02:34):
as a chair of this working group. And what they
concluded is, because police pursuits so often result in fatalities
and injuries, including to officers, they should be limited to
very limited situations, usually when someone is reasonably suspected of
having committed a violent crime and or is imminently posing
(02:55):
a serious risk of bodily injury, serious bodily injury or
harm to any other person.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Well, yeah, can you expand a bit on the danger
that is posed? I mean, is it primarily to the
people involved? Is it primarily to people on the street?
Where does the risk present itself?
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Unfortunately, the answer is all of the above. The Times
Union did some really thorough reporting in June twenty twenty
four on the data of the dangers of pursuits in
New York and what they found is pursuits in New
York state of surch ins twenty twenty and then about
a third of those who killed have been killed during
(03:38):
police pursuits since twenty twelve in New York were uninvolved bystanders,
Folks who were on the sidewalk or maybe they were
biking on the street or something like that. And then
you know, we know from national data that five percent
police officer line of duty deaths are caused by vehicle pursuits.
(04:02):
Of course, the most common folks to be injured are
folks who are in the vehicle. But remember most folks
who are chased during vehicle pursuits are being chased for
traffic violations, things like having a broken tail light, playing
loud music. And if a police pursuits result in them
or their passengers, you didn't even commit the violation dying.
(04:25):
That seems quite tragic and disproportionate for the offense.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Well, are there standards that are in place, either at
the state level or locally that govern how and when
police should give a pursuit, particularly in maybe a high
speed situation. And subsequently, is their training that specifically is
supposed to prepare law enforcement for these situations, so it's
(04:54):
not necessarily the first time they're driving in a crowded
street is when they're actually doing the real thing.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Unfortunately, in New York, there is no state wide regulation
or no statewide required training for engaging in this really
dangerous police tactic. And New York is in contrast to
states like New Jersey, Washington, d C, which is a
jurisdiction out of state, in Hawaii, which all have comprehensive
(05:23):
state regulation restricting police pursuits and requiring that officers undergo training.
With that said, there are significant jurisdictions and municipalities in
New York that have adopted restricted pursuit standards and trained
their officers on their standards. Just recently, just this summer,
(05:45):
the NYPD, with the support of the biggest police union
in the country, the New York City Police Benevolent Association,
adopted a restrictive pursuit policy requiring that their officers not
pursue anyone unless someone in the vehicle was suspected of
committing a violent crime. Buffalo similarly has ban pursuits for
(06:08):
traffic violations, misdemeanors, or non violent felonies. In Old Westbury
on Long Island also has restricted pursuits and instead does
kind of uses technology like GPS tagging to track cars
rather than high speed chases. But unfortunately, there is no
state wide standard in New York and there's really a
(06:29):
desperate need for legislation because, as the Times Union reporting shows,
year after year, many New Yorkers are getting killed and
seriously injured from these dangerous pursuits.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Well, let's talk about some of the reforms that are
being proposed by the State Attorney General's office. But first
let me reintroduce you for listeners just joining us. This
is the Capitol press room and we're speaking with Josh Parker,
the Deputy director of Policy for the Policing Project at
NYU School of Law. So there's two components to what
the A's Office is pushing, the first being legislation dealing
(07:04):
with increased transparency and the second being broad restrictions on
high speed police pursuits with narrow exceptions. Can you unpack
what Attorney General Tiss James is envisioning here.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
So, in terms of transparency, New York when it comes
to anything about traffic stop data, not just police pursuits,
is lagging half the country. New York doesn't require any
of its agencies to collect or publish very basic traffic
stop data like what folks are stopped for, what are
(07:40):
the demographics the restrender of the people who were stopped,
And in that way, New York is behind states like Alabama, Texas,
and of course you know New Jersey, Connecticut, etc. And
they also don't require any collection of data on vehicle pursuits,
so unpacking you know, what does it mean to collect
(08:02):
meaningful data on vehicle pursuits? You know, at the Policing
Project we have a model state statute that has data
collection provisions, and some of the important data points you
collect are what was the offense that the person was
suspected of, where they suspected just of a minor traffic violation,
where they was there reasonable suspicion that they committed a crime,
(08:24):
Where did the pursuit occur, What were the weather conditions,
how long did the pursuit go, what were the highest
speeds reached during the pursuits? And then what were the
outcomes where folks injured, were folks killed, were there folks
who were apprehended or arrested? And that data should be
published by all agencies. And what the Attorney General says,
(08:45):
and this is a good recommendation, is that there should
be a central state agency in New York that's likely
the Division of Criminal Justice Services DCJS that would kind
of set forth a standard for reporting the data and
would organize the data and the data gets reported up
to them. But for that to happen there needs to
(09:06):
be legislation, So the New York legislature really needs to
step up to the plate.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
And what about the other component banning high speed police
pursuits with few exceptions.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Yeah, so what the New York Attorney General recommended in
their report was to prohibit police pursuits again, high speed
or not, because they all can be dangerous unless someone
in the vehicle is reasonably suspected or there's probable cause
(09:39):
that they have committed a violent or serious crime, which
would be defined in the statute. And this standard is
exactly what the Police Executive Research Form in Federal Department
of Justice recommended in their comprehensive reported in twenty twenty three.
It's what has been implemented into law in New Jersey
(10:01):
and Hawaii and Washington, DC. And if you look at
kind of major cities across the country, you see them
adopting quite a similar standard.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
What do you think about creating a personal liability for
the police officers who might be involved in police pursuits.
Do you think something like that might also deter any
sort of reckless behavior in the future.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Yes, with the hedge that officers absolutely need to be
trained on new pursuit laws and policies and be given
notice before any liability goes into effect in order to
protect their due process rights. But absolutely, just like a
police pursuit is very similar to a use of force.
(10:50):
I think most New Yorkers would agree if an officer
unlawfully uses a choke hold or shoot someone with a
taser when and that violates the constitution or state law,
they should be held liable. Right and a police pursuit
if there is a law in the books that says, hey,
you can't chase someone for just having a broken tail light,
(11:13):
and they chase anyway and they injure them or they
injure a bystander, yes, just like a use of force,
the officer should be liable. But that you know, there
needs to be more enforcement mechanisms than that, because often
you know, law enforcement officers are indemnified or they might
not have deep pockets. So generally, agencies and agency chiefs
(11:35):
should be tasked with ensuring their officers or following the
policies and municipalities potentially, and agencies themselves should be held liable,
especially if they're officers have a pattern of engaging in
dangerous and lawful pursuits.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Well Unfortunately, we're gonna have to leave things there. We've
been speaking with Josh Parker. They're the deputy director of
Policy for the Policing Project at NYU School of Law. Josh,
thank you so much for making the time. I really
appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
If you're enjoying the Capitol Pressroom, please consider making a
recurring contribution to help make our journalism possible. To show
your support, visit Capitolpressroom dot org, slash donate
This summer, New York State Attorney General Letitia James issued
a report on high speed police chases and is recommending
law enforcement more broadly restrict the use of these pursuits,
which can be extremely dangerous for the public. To discuss
the issue, including the proposed reforms, we're joined on the
Capitol press room by Josh Parker, Deputy Director of Policy
(00:25):
for the Policing Project at NYU School of Law. Welcome
to the show, Josh.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Thank you. We're happy to be here, glad.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
To have you. Well for starters, what actually constitutes a
high speed police pursuit? Because I doubt what I see
on the highway sometimes, say when the state troopers go
in eighty miles an hour to nab a speeder actually counts.
So what is it that we should think of when
we're talking about high speed police pursuits.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
When we're trying to define pursuits in policy or regulation,
we don't distinguish between high speed versus low speed, because
a danger could be posed regardless if someone is fleeing
the police and won't stop even if there's another vehicle
in front of them or there's a bystander on the sidewalk.
So the generally accepted definition of a pursuit is when
(01:14):
the police signal a driver to stop, they put their
emergency lights on, their sirens on, and the driver continues
driving and doesn't stop. And if the police vehicle continues
to follow or chase the vehicle for more than a
few moments, that constitutes a pursuit. Another very commonly term
(01:35):
for a pursuit is it chase, a car chase, a
police chase.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
And from your perspective, when does a police pursuit become dangerous?
Are there circumstances where they are more dangerous than others?
Speaker 2 (01:49):
For example, sure police pursuits are more dangerous. Let's say
if they take place on a crowded highway during rush
hour where there's lots of calls and lots of potential
to collide with other vehicles. Then possibly on a rural
road at night when no one else is on the
road there are on bystanders around. With that said, as
(02:12):
a general rule, police pursuits are dangerous. In twenty twenty three,
the Police Executive Research Forum and the Federal Department of
Justice issued a comprehensive white paper. They basically gathered a
working group of ten police lieutenants in chiefs from across
the country and had an academic expert on police pursuits
(02:34):
as a chair of this working group. And what they
concluded is, because police pursuits so often result in fatalities
and injuries, including to officers, they should be limited to
very limited situations, usually when someone is reasonably suspected of
having committed a violent crime and or is imminently posing
(02:55):
a serious risk of bodily injury, serious bodily injury or
harm to any other person.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Well, yeah, can you expand a bit on the danger
that is posed? I mean, is it primarily to the
people involved? Is it primarily to people on the street?
Where does the risk present itself?
Speaker 2 (03:17):
Unfortunately, the answer is all of the above. The Times
Union did some really thorough reporting in June twenty twenty
four on the data of the dangers of pursuits in
New York and what they found is pursuits in New
York state of surch ins twenty twenty and then about
a third of those who killed have been killed during
(03:38):
police pursuits since twenty twelve in New York were uninvolved bystanders,
Folks who were on the sidewalk or maybe they were
biking on the street or something like that. And then
you know, we know from national data that five percent
police officer line of duty deaths are caused by vehicle pursuits.
(04:02):
Of course, the most common folks to be injured are
folks who are in the vehicle. But remember most folks
who are chased during vehicle pursuits are being chased for
traffic violations, things like having a broken tail light, playing
loud music. And if a police pursuits result in them
or their passengers, you didn't even commit the violation dying.
(04:25):
That seems quite tragic and disproportionate for the offense.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Well, are there standards that are in place, either at
the state level or locally that govern how and when
police should give a pursuit, particularly in maybe a high
speed situation. And subsequently, is their training that specifically is
supposed to prepare law enforcement for these situations, so it's
(04:54):
not necessarily the first time they're driving in a crowded
street is when they're actually doing the real thing.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Unfortunately, in New York, there is no state wide regulation
or no statewide required training for engaging in this really
dangerous police tactic. And New York is in contrast to
states like New Jersey, Washington, d C, which is a
jurisdiction out of state, in Hawaii, which all have comprehensive
(05:23):
state regulation restricting police pursuits and requiring that officers undergo training.
With that said, there are significant jurisdictions and municipalities in
New York that have adopted restricted pursuit standards and trained
their officers on their standards. Just recently, just this summer,
(05:45):
the NYPD, with the support of the biggest police union
in the country, the New York City Police Benevolent Association,
adopted a restrictive pursuit policy requiring that their officers not
pursue anyone unless someone in the vehicle was suspected of
committing a violent crime. Buffalo similarly has ban pursuits for
(06:08):
traffic violations, misdemeanors, or non violent felonies. In Old Westbury
on Long Island also has restricted pursuits and instead does
kind of uses technology like GPS tagging to track cars
rather than high speed chases. But unfortunately, there is no
state wide standard in New York and there's really a
(06:29):
desperate need for legislation because, as the Times Union reporting shows,
year after year, many New Yorkers are getting killed and
seriously injured from these dangerous pursuits.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Well, let's talk about some of the reforms that are
being proposed by the State Attorney General's office. But first
let me reintroduce you for listeners just joining us. This
is the Capitol press room and we're speaking with Josh Parker,
the Deputy director of Policy for the Policing Project at
NYU School of Law. So there's two components to what
the A's Office is pushing, the first being legislation dealing
(07:04):
with increased transparency and the second being broad restrictions on
high speed police pursuits with narrow exceptions. Can you unpack
what Attorney General Tiss James is envisioning here.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
So, in terms of transparency, New York when it comes
to anything about traffic stop data, not just police pursuits,
is lagging half the country. New York doesn't require any
of its agencies to collect or publish very basic traffic
stop data like what folks are stopped for, what are
(07:40):
the demographics the restrender of the people who were stopped,
And in that way, New York is behind states like Alabama, Texas,
and of course you know New Jersey, Connecticut, etc. And
they also don't require any collection of data on vehicle pursuits,
so unpacking you know, what does it mean to collect
(08:02):
meaningful data on vehicle pursuits? You know, at the Policing
Project we have a model state statute that has data
collection provisions, and some of the important data points you
collect are what was the offense that the person was
suspected of, where they suspected just of a minor traffic violation,
where they was there reasonable suspicion that they committed a crime,
(08:24):
Where did the pursuit occur, What were the weather conditions,
how long did the pursuit go, what were the highest
speeds reached during the pursuits? And then what were the
outcomes where folks injured, were folks killed, were there folks
who were apprehended or arrested? And that data should be
published by all agencies. And what the Attorney General says,
(08:45):
and this is a good recommendation, is that there should
be a central state agency in New York that's likely
the Division of Criminal Justice Services DCJS that would kind
of set forth a standard for reporting the data and
would organize the data and the data gets reported up
to them. But for that to happen there needs to
(09:06):
be legislation, So the New York legislature really needs to
step up to the plate.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
And what about the other component banning high speed police
pursuits with few exceptions.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Yeah, so what the New York Attorney General recommended in
their report was to prohibit police pursuits again, high speed
or not, because they all can be dangerous unless someone
in the vehicle is reasonably suspected or there's probable cause
(09:39):
that they have committed a violent or serious crime, which
would be defined in the statute. And this standard is
exactly what the Police Executive Research Form in Federal Department
of Justice recommended in their comprehensive reported in twenty twenty three.
It's what has been implemented into law in New Jersey
(10:01):
and Hawaii and Washington, DC. And if you look at
kind of major cities across the country, you see them
adopting quite a similar standard.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
What do you think about creating a personal liability for
the police officers who might be involved in police pursuits.
Do you think something like that might also deter any
sort of reckless behavior in the future.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Yes, with the hedge that officers absolutely need to be
trained on new pursuit laws and policies and be given
notice before any liability goes into effect in order to
protect their due process rights. But absolutely, just like a
police pursuit is very similar to a use of force.
(10:50):
I think most New Yorkers would agree if an officer
unlawfully uses a choke hold or shoot someone with a
taser when and that violates the constitution or state law,
they should be held liable. Right and a police pursuit
if there is a law in the books that says, hey,
you can't chase someone for just having a broken tail light,
(11:13):
and they chase anyway and they injure them or they
injure a bystander, yes, just like a use of force,
the officer should be liable. But that you know, there
needs to be more enforcement mechanisms than that, because often
you know, law enforcement officers are indemnified or they might
not have deep pockets. So generally, agencies and agency chiefs
(11:35):
should be tasked with ensuring their officers or following the
policies and municipalities potentially, and agencies themselves should be held liable,
especially if they're officers have a pattern of engaging in
dangerous and lawful pursuits.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Well Unfortunately, we're gonna have to leave things there. We've
been speaking with Josh Parker. They're the deputy director of
Policy for the Policing Project at NYU School of Law. Josh,
thank you so much for making the time. I really
appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
If you're enjoying the Capitol Pressroom, please consider making a
recurring contribution to help make our journalism possible. To show
your support, visit Capitolpressroom dot org, slash donate
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