October 23, 2024 • 51 mins
This week on The Lawman’s Lounge, I’m hanging out with Abby McCarthy, a school psychologist who knows exactly how to cut through the school system’s red tape. 🎙️ She used to be on the inside, working in public schools, but now she’s helping families privately—because let’s be real, figuring out how to get kids the services they need shouldn’t be this hard.
Abby’s all about making sure parents don’t walk into meetings feeling lost or blindsided by the process. Her passion? Making sure families know their rights, get the right support, and aren’t stuck waiting for answers.
If you’ve ever dealt with the frustration of navigating school plans and services, this episode is a must. Abby brings humor, energy, and straight-up honesty to the conversation. Don’t miss it!
For more information on how to contact Abby and explore available resources, check out her website at https://hhpsych.com/About-us/
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-lawman-s-lounge--4267400/support.
Abby’s all about making sure parents don’t walk into meetings feeling lost or blindsided by the process. Her passion? Making sure families know their rights, get the right support, and aren’t stuck waiting for answers.
If you’ve ever dealt with the frustration of navigating school plans and services, this episode is a must. Abby brings humor, energy, and straight-up honesty to the conversation. Don’t miss it!
For more information on how to contact Abby and explore available resources, check out her website at https://hhpsych.com/About-us/
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-lawman-s-lounge--4267400/support.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Lou, I'm coming in out. You're listening to the law
Man's Lounge, a podcast dedicated to help you take back
control of your life and your business.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Here's your host, Bill the law Man, Umansky.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Hey, it's William Manskin the law Man with another rendition
of The law Man's Lounge. Today. After five and a
half years, we've finally got some self help coming in
and not for me, but for my co host Jeff,
who's not working today.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Yeah, it's all for me.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Yes, So, uh, I'm excited about this speaker. We're starting
to diversify our stuff from uh, you know, lawyers and
business owners that do law work and anything related illegal
and I think much more interesting, I think for people.
And I I want to introduce our guest, Abby McCarthy. Hi, Abbey,
(01:01):
and Abby is a licensed school psychologist who's now in
her own practice.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Yes, yes, yes, So our office is in winter Park
on Lee Road, and a lot of our job revolves
around psycho educational testing. So that's really looking at a
student's cognition, their academic performance as well as their social,
emotional and behavioral performance between home, school, and community environments.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Yeah. So one of the reasons we had her on
is because we have a podcast that's designed for lawyers
all over the country, and you know, some things that
are never addressed. And we have some dear friends, some
have worked with me, who had children who had some
relatively serious disabilities, and even though they were lawyers, they
(01:49):
were frustrated with the school system. Believe it or not.
I know you believe it, but as lawyers, you would
think they would called a school and they would start
getting involved, and they would get dead ends, and they
would get frustrated. And as lawyers, I thought, I'm a lawyer,
I just look up the code, I look up the law,
look up the rule, and ultimately they still ended up
getting more and more frustrated. So that's why I kind
(02:10):
of brought you on to kind of talk about some
of those things and how I mean locally, how you'd help,
but certainly nationally some of the same things happen, obviously,
because for instance, people are on autism spectrum and I
like to talk about that today.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Yeah, of course, I think we hear a lot of
the same stories over and over again from parents who
are very frustrated. And no matter who you are or
what position you have, I think coming to a table
at Really any school can be intimidating because it really
feels like everyone else knows what's going on and the
laws behind education except for you. I think one reason
(02:47):
is that they're constantly changing in education, so to keep
yourself very well informed is really difficult unless you work
in it all day every day.
Speaker 4 (02:55):
Yeah, and let's get back though to Abby and and
like how you started and why you started. Though, I'm
kind of curious on your background, your story.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
I do want to hear her story, but prior to
I just would like you know, I know you're a
school psychologist. Genesis just graduated school. Uh, Jeff never went
to school, and I went to too many schools. So
I like just a one sentence analysis of each of us.
You can be honest, and then we'll go into your background.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
I like it.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
I think I'm gonna have to just observe, and then
at the end I'll do a nice wrap up smart
all right, that's pretty small stop recording before we no.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
No, no, we don't.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
We want the whole.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
We want the whole kitten kaboodle.
Speaker 5 (03:42):
Yeh.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Yeah, you gotta be very honest with Genesis. You certainly
coun be honest with me. It's not going to change anything.
But for Genesis, she might have hope. She's still young, and.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
You have just heard my feelings, and I'll cry to
myself to sleep.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Out there.
Speaker 6 (03:56):
I may need a little help, but not that much,
not as much as our good friend Billy Manski over here.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Okay, Well, anyway, changing the subject, let's talk about how
your background and how you got into all of this
good stuff.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Sure, so I knew going into the field of psychology
that I love working with kids. I love working with
adults too, but I just really found a passion working
for kids when I was in high school in college,
and then I found out I really love statistics. And
one way to marry those two fields of psychology and
statistics is to become a school psychologist. It's really great
(04:30):
because you get to help kids, you get to work
with adults, you get to consult with parents, and you
get to bring them a lot of the tools that
they need to help the gaps that exist in students functioning. So, yeah,
I went to u CF, stayed there for grad school,
and then right out of grad school, I started working
for a public school system. Really loved it, and then
found that I could also work in private practice with
(04:52):
just a little bit more flexibility. That just aligned with
my goals. So that's how I ended up in private practice.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
That's really cool, you know, for our listeners, because a
lot of our listeners are national as well. At University
of Central Florida about to play the University of Florida
this weekend and about to get crushed. Actually I'm not
sure who's going to get crushed. I'll just say about
to get crushed. But that's interesting you say that I
was a psych major abby when I was in college,
(05:17):
and I love statistics, but I and I was you know,
I think I was going to go organizational psych because
I think there's some marriage of that also as well.
And I don't know what happened. I either my therapist
taught me out of it or just away just you
don't need to be involved with trying to help people.
So I became a lawyer. So so tell us a
(05:38):
little bit about like statistics and what that means, and
you know, tell us a little bit about that. That's interesting.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Yeah, So I don't maybe this is not something that
a lot of people realize in the field of school psychology,
but a lot of the instruments or the tests that
we use to work with kids are NORM referenced, and
you have to know the statistics behind NORM referenced assessments.
So when I say NORM referenced, were typically comparing kids
across the entire United States by these scores of comparison,
and you have to know how these scores of comparison
(06:08):
align with kids by their age level and their grade level,
and how those scores are really developed. When you are
breaking a report down for a parent, you have to
be able to talk to the scores and what they mean.
Sometimes you'll get questions of I guess you're telling me
that my student is very low, low in the middle, high,
or very high. How do you know that information? So
(06:28):
that's where the statistics really come into play. And that's
after the point that a parent even gets their evaluation results,
which we feel like is the longest part of our job.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
So I hear that right. It's special needs.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Yes, yes, So we work with students of varying exceptionalities,
so all the way from gifted to intellectually disabled.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
So I want to and there's so many questions that
we have, and obviously you should be able if I'm
not going down the right path. I want to know
what you did as a school psychologist and what you
do now. But before getting there, I just you know,
you talked about gifted children, and I remember I got
thrown out of three schools, and both my boys they
(07:15):
went to n y U and they both were valed Victorians.
But when they were younger, especially my youngest, you know,
they wanted to put them on medicine like myself, and
there was a big push to get them on what
would be today's equivalent of whatever, whatever the today's equivalent
of riddling was, whatever it was, because he had a
hard time sitting, he had a hard time paying attention,
(07:39):
and they made us actually take them for some therapy,
which was interesting because my father in law was a
pediatric prologists. Before he even got to grade school, he
got thrown out of three schools. He said to my wife,
he's like, you know, I know you're a working lawyer.
To my wife's a lawyer, he's like, you might have
to consider staying home. It's not just that he's got
attention deficit disorder. He may not adapt well, he said.
(08:02):
Daycares are not natural things. Anyway, he went to some therapy,
got out of it. And went to school, but they
wanted to push them on some medication. We thankfully stop
that and by the time he was in third fourth
grade and had the right teachers, he grew out of that.
But as a school psychologist, when you're dealing gifted children,
(08:24):
did you ever come across that? Now you can be
an advocate, but before, like what happens in that case,
when you have kids that are gifted, they're board, they're acting.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Out and happens a lot too. I think there's a
lot of misconceptions about what a profile of a gifted
student looks like. There's a lot of students who are
twice exceptional, meaning they have the qualities of a gifted student,
but they also have maybe attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and
it's obviously up to a parent to medicate or not medicate.
(08:57):
But the goal was also to provide some social emotional
strategies executive functioning strategies so a student can overcome and
compensate for some of those. That way, they don't feel
board in class. That way, they don't feel like they
need to get up and run around constantly all day
long or all around the floor or interrupt Some of
those are such developmentally appropriate behaviors, meaning we expect to
(09:18):
see them from kids at a certain age, and then
others it looks so much different than every other student.
So yeah, it's really asking how is this behavior different
in the developmental lens from other kids?
Speaker 1 (09:33):
So when you were a school psychologist, tell me what
you did, Like, I'm just curious, and I have some
questions along with that, but I want to ask, like,
what did you do when you worked for the public
school system?
Speaker 2 (09:43):
So we typically were assigned to schools, so you had
the responsibility of testing, meeting with parents, working with kids,
collaborating with counselors and social workers in order to help kids.
Every single day. I would say that not every day
looked the same. A lot of mornings I would start testing.
Other mornings I would be in meetings reviewing the results
(10:05):
with parents. Other times you were helping kids in crisis.
So if a student is really struggling with their behavior,
like aggression, even self injurious behavior, we were also called
on to help intervene during those crises.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Who's the one that called on you? Was it the
teacher or someone in guidance or the dean of How
did you get involved? Like you're not involved with every
single kid in the school, are you?
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Or is there not? Usually so, it's typically the students
who need to be evaluated or have already been evaluated
and receive services. There are times where there's a student
who has not been evaluated, has not been identified as
having a disability, and they might be having a tantrument class,
or they might be having a little bit of a meltdown,
or might be having struggles with executive functioning skills. And
(10:51):
in that case, the teacher or the front office guidance
an administrator might say, Hey, we really need some help
in this classroom. Can you just stop by and maybe
help d scale so you can you have the umbrella
of working with every kid if you need to.
Speaker 4 (11:06):
And how are the and you mentioned statistics and then
also giving the evaluation reports. Is it different working with
the special needs as far as like statistics? Do you
have those statistics for like more behavioral stats versus like
educational Is there a difference in that? Like I feel
(11:27):
like with special needs you almost have there's a lot
of focus on you know, having to get them to
sit down and stay sitting, and then and then there's
also the education aspect why they're in school to begin with,
is there a difference there or what's the problem or
is or do you give stats for those kind of things?
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Yeah, I think that when you're working through the lens
of behavior, it's a little bit different because you are
trying to reach a goal for a student. So if
they have a behavior goal of interrupting less or keeping
their hands to themselves, you would measure that in a
little bit of a different way than you measure things
like IQ, which is when the statistics come into play.
(12:05):
So for example, if your IQ score is a one hundred,
you're at the fiftieth percentile, so you you have scored
better than fifty percent of your same age peers, and
then the scales kind of go up and down from
there depending on what your IQ is and your other
gaps like academic gaps and behavioral gaps. You can meet
the eligibility requirements for certain disabilities and then get services
(12:26):
for them on the back end. So that's when we
talk about the statistical likelihood of someone having a disability,
which is kind of the pathway to get services.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
There ever been in situations where it's a sad question,
but where parents kind of gave up too early and
either on one hand, push their kids into disability to
get help that maybe they didn't I know, that's a
weird question they didn't necessarily need, or the opposite, they
(12:57):
were resistant to the help they need.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Yeah, both, for sure, that's something that we experience pretty frequently,
and honestly, both equally. You would think that maybe it
would lean one way or another, But I think there's
a certain point of maybe you imagine your kids to
be a certain way, or perform a certain way, or
to be gifted, and some parents have a very hard
(13:21):
time unless they fit that mold of the expectation. So
when students fall over that expectation or under that expectation,
it can be kind of hard to come to terms with.
Sometimes parents are just looking for an answer. So then
when we provide them with the answers that they've been
looking for for so long, they're super grateful and they're like,
finally we just have an answer of what's going on.
(13:43):
And other parents react with anger. Other parents react with
like a lot of frustration, tears, crying, and you expect
every reaction. So and that's that's totally appropriate to think, Oh, Okay,
they're just having an emotional response to new information. So
that's part of our job too, just knowing and expecting
that we're going to be an advocate for students but
(14:04):
also for parents when they get to the table.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
So you eventually went into private practice. Tell us a
little bit. Was there a motivating factor? Did you get
frustrated with the school system? Was there what motivated you
to get into private practice? Did you consider before that
maybe going to a private school or a university or
something else different, or what was your What were you thinking?
Speaker 5 (14:29):
Abby?
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Yeah, So I really loved the kids and the adults
that I worked with in public schools. I look forward
to going to work every single day because I love
the job that I do. But I did feel frustrated
that I wasn't really able to practice as flexibly as
I really wanted. And I think there were some things
that I wish I could tell parents, wish I could
communicate to parents that I felt like I really couldn't
(14:52):
In public schools, there's no matter what county or state
that you're in, there is just a lot of red
tape that prevents you from speaking up sometimes or saying
the thing that you really want to say in a
meeting and My personality is very yes, outgoing, but I've outspoken.
So I really want to say, hey, if I were
a parent right now, I would want to know this,
(15:13):
But I don't want to get in trouble in my job.
So I felt like I was kind of working for
a system that I didn't necessarily agree with, even though
I loved my kids and I loved the adults in
the schools. So that's what inspired me to kind of
make a shift.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
So let me talk about that, because we have listeners
here who have children, you know that may have kids
either on the spectrum or other disabilities or even gifted,
and so just so that they're listening and processing and
analyzing this because what you say may trigger some thoughts
to them. Even at that you know they may not
(15:46):
have heard it, right, we're thinking it to themselves because
they're smart. So what would be some of the things
that you wanted to say to parents but you felt
you couldn't say because you would get in trouble.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
So the first thing is, I think when you have
a struggle with your student, whether it is academically related
or social emotional behavioral, it doesn't really matter what the
one problem is. But I think a lot of parents think, oh,
I have a meeting stuff with the school, and everyone's
going to be there, so it's great, we're going to
really tackle this problem tomorrow. And what the reality is
(16:17):
is that one meeting is just the start of months
of often hard work that our team and parents have
to do. So for example, in a school system, in
really any school system, we have something called the multi
Tiered System of Support, so you'll hear it as MTSS.
For example, there's three tiers to this, Tier one, Tier two,
tier three, and they just use them as terms to
(16:38):
group students by where they're, where they're at in school,
and what they're doing. So Tier one is whole group instruction,
meaning you're walking into a classroom and you're seeing the
entire class learn with their peers. When a teacher or
provider notices that a student is struggling and reading, math,
or behavior, they at request that they go to a
Tier two intervention group so they receive a little bit
(16:59):
extra help in whatever area that they're struggling in. It
might be reading, math, social emotional skills, behavior, and they
provide these interventions for about six to eight weeks. It
can be in a small group, but Basically, you're just
getting something extra to help close those gaps. They monitor
that student's progress hoping that okay, we can close those
math gaps, we can close those reading gaps, or those
behavior gaps. If there's not enough progress, or if a
(17:21):
student continues to kind of decline in performance, they move
them to the highest level of intervention, which is a
Tier three, for another six to eight weeks. I say
this because, well, Tier three is the most intensive level intervention.
But before you can even get an evaluation for your student,
your student has had to move through all three tiers
of intervention. So it's very disappointing to hear the pattern
(17:44):
of oh, but your student's only in a Tier one
or a Tier two, so you have to come back
here in eight weeks, and eight weeks can feel pretty
devastating to a parent who knows my kidneys up tomorrow,
not in eight weeks. And the whole entire point of
this MTSS tiered system is to make that we're not
evaluating kids too fast or over identifying kids, so it
has a great purpose. However, the timeline can be really
(18:07):
hard because we're not legally allowed to test kids unless
they've been through all through or all through those three tiers.
The norm right, it's we can't do that even if
we know a student needs help, even if we know
as student desperately needs an evaluation. The idea of MTSS
is great because you're saying, ooh, what if this is
(18:28):
not a true disability. What if they missed three weeks
of school due to a hurricane and now they're behind
in math that we can close the gap for remediable basically,
Or what if they had not the best teacher last
year so their behavior is not very reflective who they
truly are. Let's give them six to eight weeks with
some good interventions, and the hope is, okay, we can
(18:49):
we can kind of differentially identify if this is a
true disability or if this is just a small learning
gap that can be closed, you know, within a few
months of time. We had a really big problem in
education years and years ago where we were over identifying
kids with disabilities that didn't actually have disabilities. They just
had small gaps in their performance that could be closed.
So MTSS was the solution to that. But it's very disappointing.
Speaker 4 (19:13):
Who's the clientele.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
There, really the Greater Orlando area we work with both
public and private schools. Any family is able to go
outside of that public school system and get an evaluation,
but typically private practices or private pay so it can
be difficult to navigate. So with a private practice, you
don't have to wait through those three tiers of intervention.
(19:35):
You can say, hey, I have identified that my student
has a learning disability. I'm bringing this comprehensive report to
the school's table, trying to kind of get ahead of that.
But the school will work with all ages. Yes, our
youngest client has been two years old and our oldest
client has been twenty two.
Speaker 4 (19:53):
Wow, okay, Yes, have you ever thought about maybe opening
up your services to law firm business owners? Maybe found
that are I don't know, acting childish way sometimes in
other times, you know, try to like throw out the
man card and be like, you know, I'm I'm trying to,
(20:14):
you know, become a strong, powerful I don't know who
I'm talking about, but.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
Maybe Ford I was emasculated for twenty eight years, changed
quite a bit. Said to me this morning. It's good
that your firm sometimes with me now, and I should
have heard that my first two years of my marriage.
By the way, forget where its Yeah, yes, we'll just
(20:45):
move on anyway. What's great about that passive, aggressive and
often like really crappy way you just talked about me
is that she'll be able to evaluate you as a
result of that.
Speaker 4 (20:57):
Oh, yes, you're on your best behavior.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
No, I'm not on any kind of behavior. And I'm
just trying to have boundaries. I'm turning over a new leaf. Yeah,
and I feel like I feel like your comments to
me were well taken, because I know you're trying to
be direct, but you have an issue with communication. So
even though you were, you were insulting me. I will,
(21:24):
I will, I will take what you're saying. You don't
have to read through and kind of analyze. Maybe you
could help me, I can.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
I can help a little with.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
That, okay, but we'll talk about it later if you
don't like and we can do it, okay, thank you. However,
I would say that the joy of being a child
is is that I never grow old, and that in
botox so it helps in testosterone. But that's too much
information anyway. So, uh, we have another young lady here
(21:56):
who is not a child anymore, who always asks great questions,
and we'd like to turn it over to Miss Jen.
Speaker 6 (22:04):
Hello everyone. So yeah, I feel like my question got
answered earlier. But the question I was going to ask
you was like, what has to happen for a parent
to say, hmm, something's not right and to reach out
to you, Like is it like only bad behavior or
did the teachers have to see something in the student
to contact you? Like what is the first indicator usually
that you get like okay, I need to go check
(22:24):
out this kid now.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Yeah. Usually I would say teachers are the first people
to bring it up. Sometimes parents are the first people
to bring it up if and parents know their students
the best, right, parents know their kids better than teachers. However,
from an academic lens, if a teacher is observing a
student doing reading math, has been through interventions like those
three tiers and their progress is the exact same, that
(22:47):
teacher will come to a meeting with the support staff
and say, hey, we've been working on this for sixteen
weeks and we're at the exact same spot of understanding
and comprehension. I think that there is something deeper going
on here. I've let the parents know, and the parents
are really open to suggestions having a meeting, potentially doing
an evaluation but if it's behavior, we typically observe it
(23:09):
right away. We typically see it in the classrooms and
shared centers and the cafeteria, and that is just it's
pretty quick. The academics take a little bit longer to identify,
just because you have to go through a series of
assessments and wait. But with behavior, I would say it's
pretty fast at school either, I observe it, teachers call.
Some parents will identify it early and say, hey, just
(23:33):
so you know, he struggles with X, Y and Z,
watch out for it. Can you help? And that's a
great heads up. I think transparency in the school system
is something that we take for granted, and the more
transparent a parent is with us, we're so appreciative and
so grateful. Obviously, you can't always anticipate that not all
parents know that their children have behavioral struggles at school,
but we appreciate so much when a parent just gives
(23:55):
us the full story, full open transparency, because then we
can help their kids the best at school. Exactly.
Speaker 6 (24:01):
I can imagine how in denials some parents might because
no parent really wants to hear that their child may
not be what was considered normal per se. But like
I can still definitely see like how you appreciate the
parents that you know are willing to work with you.
And another question, So earlier before you came in, we
joked and they were saying, how like a shrink was here,
But after like hearing what you do now, would you
consider yourself a shrink because you're not a therapist. You're right,
(24:23):
You're a psychology right right right, So it's interesting too
how psychologists can take different roles.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
So, like I specialize in educational psychology. Educational psychology does
involves like reading and math, but it also involves social
emotional regulation and therapy, and we do provide some counseling services.
So I think when people think of like a stereotypical
shrink or psychologist, they think of like a couch and this,
and like there's definitely a place for that.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
I'm about to ask some serious questions. Yeah, so tell
me about your childhood.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
I'll just play down.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
It is allowed. Is there any fault daddy issues? I
mean we're already here right now. I mean we have
whiskey burb. Don't turn off the light please, Genesis. Okay,
so we can avoid those questions.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
But yes, it's definitely something that I think maybe people
hear the word psychologists and they think, oh, you do
the same job as every other psychologist in the world.
But to be when you do psychology, you really pick
what you want to specialize in. And I love kids
so much. I just found my strength in psychology. So
I get to do, you know, all the things that
(25:45):
I like to do every single day.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
So I'm gonna I'm gonna dovetail or add Genesis asked
you a good question and then follow up. But here's
the third part of that question. So that's when you're
a school psychologist. Like, so you've explained what that first
trick is when you're working as a school psychologist. And
the second question she asked you, you know, joking around
about shrink, you know, what is a school psychologist? What
(26:08):
does school psychologists do? But the third question is not
you're in private practice and you know, parents may not
know that you exist. It may not even know that
there's a private school psychologist, right any parent educated not educated?
So so how does I mean, how does that come about?
(26:29):
How do you get your name out there? How do
you educate people? And how do parents understand that you
have your own private practice? And what you can do
for them.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
It is kind of hard to get the word out
and less parents know you or you have a word
of mouth, or a parent can say, hey, I worked
with this clinic and they did a really great job,
or they had really great social skills rapport with my kid.
I would say the main way that we get, you know,
our practice out is by word of mouth. But we've
also been going to clinics like No More because that's
(27:01):
where a lot of things start. While a lot of
issues do begin in the classroom in a school setting,
other issues begin from a medical lens where parents are
taking their children to doctor's offices and saying, hey, I
don't know what's going on, but my kid's behavior looks
like X, Y, and Z, and I think my kid
may be on the autism spectrum. So also connecting with
(27:21):
places like Numors and just little different children's hospitals and
private schools, going there, telling them about our services, sending
them messages, meeting with them, and explaining the value that
we bring to the table has been helpful because then
other places in the Greater Orlando area have been referring
to us, you know, for parents, so.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
I want to know more like in your role now
as a private school psychologist. Take us through some of
the things that you do. I don't want to presume,
like the word advocate sometimes comes to mind. You're not
a lawyer, but the but you're an advocate that may
be more more needed than a lawyer and that particular situation.
So tell us, like what you do for people that
(28:04):
are going to hire you for their children or their situation,
or their school or whatever else that I may be missing.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Yeah, I would think the most important thing is to
collect background information and presenting problem. That way we know
what's already been done and what needs to be done.
So if a parent is working through a school system,
one of my first questions would be what has been
going on lately for how long? And then have you
already received an evaluation from the school, Because if you've
(28:30):
already received an evaluation from the school, then our conversation
is a lot different. Most of the conversations that I
have with parents are I think my kid needs an evaluation.
The wait list at almost every other place is six
to eight months long, and I don't have six to
eight months to wait. So then that tells me, Okay,
I can tell you about our services. I can tell
(28:51):
you that I can look at your student's IQ, your
overall cognitive ability see if there's a gap that exists
in that student's cognitive ability. We also look at their
ability to see if there's a gap in their academics
that really aligns or matches up with a gap in
their cognition. We'd also look at all their academics like reading, math,
orthographic processing, writing, photological processing to see if there's a
(29:13):
deficit there, and their social emotional skills. So like externalizing behaviors,
internalizing behaviors things related to ADHD. Some parents don't know
what's going on, so they're like, just evaluate them comprehensively
and help me figure out what I can do next
steps of schools. Other parents are like, hey, I really
think my kid has ADHD or clinical anxiety or depression
(29:36):
or our fit which is avoidant restrictive food and take disorder.
So just a couple of things that we're hearing right now.
Or it's like hot topics. Dyslexia is a really big
hot topic right now, So we can evaluate for those
things if a parent suspects them.
Speaker 6 (29:52):
Is the art What was the second to last one
is that like food not food disorder, but eating disorder
type it.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
It kind of falls in that our FIT is avoidant
restrictive food intake disorder. So instead of not wanting to
eat well, you do not want to eat when you
have ur FID. It's almost like a repulsion to food,
like I don't like the texture of this food and
picking it up and smelling it makes me gag.
Speaker 6 (30:15):
I just recently saw TikTok videos about that, Like this
dude just gagging over a pickle.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Yeah, wero, like literally a pickle.
Speaker 6 (30:21):
He was about to throw up in everything.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
That was crazy. Yes, Usually kids and adults with our
FID have nutritional deficiencies as a result of the ARTFIT
because they only eat like two to three different kinds
of food based on their texture, appearance, size, smell things
like that, and it causes them to not be able
to function as well in everyday life, like they're constantly fatigued,
or they have bad blood work for example come back,
(30:44):
or they lose a lot of weight and at lunchtime
you won't see them eating any of the foods that
are offered, and they end up skipping a lot of
meals and you offer them new things, fun things, colorful things,
treats and it's just totally repulsive to them.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Do you provide the therapy for.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
So for specifically to Arfid, we would refer them to
a food therapist, but for other things we can do
them in house.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
So, Jeff, you know, with my I think with my eldest,
you know, and they don't usually have any textra issues.
I remember, you know us, you know, having a psych
degree in nine years of therapy, I thought, well, we'll
just take our kid for sushi and we and you know,
he was like five or six, and he's like, I'm
(31:28):
not eating that, and like his mom and I like,
of course, you're gonna eat it. We just paid for it,
You're gonna eat it. So he jammed down some like,
oh it's caviar actually one boy.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
Yes, that's a tricky one.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
And you know how he got us back. He up
chucked on someone that was just asking his person to
be married on his shoulder. Yes, and my son likes
caviar now though, So I think my therapy helped. I
don't know if we really needed.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
To kill here's a tricky one too. I mean that's
kind of a hard I mean mentally also, I mean
when you find out okay, Yeah, you're can to eat
fish eggs. That's kind of hard for kids to for process. Yeah,
and the texture can be kind of funny.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
Tomatoes seems to be a big texture issue.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
For kids, and yeah, that can be sure.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Yeah, so that's kind of cool. I it's just interesting
to me because I'm thinking of all my friends that
their child was diagnosed, for example, on the spectrum, and
they never talked about a school psychologist. They always talked
about getting therapy for their kid. They're having frustration, and
I'm just wondering, Like, I have a friend now. I
(32:35):
grabbed my phone to take a note. I don't want
to mention his name on the areas an attorney and
he you know, I gave him some resources. Definitely give
me your name. But like I think his kid is young,
four or five, like so he hasn't really entered. I
hold you when you go to kindergarten. Jed, you just
got out of kindergarten.
Speaker 6 (32:55):
Like I was just yesterday.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
I don't know. I think you're like, what like three
or four kindergarten? It's five oh five, yes, five six?
Speaker 4 (33:04):
You just.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Kindergarten.
Speaker 6 (33:07):
I met like second grade.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
I think stop ringing. I think the phone not you understands,
but I think like he his child hasn't started kindergarten,
so and I think they did do testing. So where
would you come in that situation?
Speaker 2 (33:24):
So if a student has already been tested, I would
ask for the evaluation report, just with the.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Permission of the kindergarten.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Oh yeah yeah. And so someone just says, hey, I
really noticed my student is struggling. We did a pre
K evaluation. I would look at that evaluation report just
to see what instruments they used, what kind of test batteries,
and really what they looked for. Sometimes we're looking for
a developmental delay. Sometimes we're looking just at autism, which
is pretty comprehensive. Other times we're looking at speech and
language evaluations. So i'd really review that comprehensive report just
(33:54):
to see if they made an eligibility determination, like did
they diagnose, you know, say that he met that eligibility
for a certain developmental delay. From there, I would ask
questions like are you interested in receiving regular therapy or
counseling services or even behavior therapy for your student? Where
is just going to go for kindergarten? Are we looking
at public or private options, because all of those things
(34:17):
really influence how your student gets services. In private schools,
they're not bound to deliver services to your students no
matter what type of disability they have, whereas public schools
are legally bound to give their students services if they
have an IEP or an individualized education plan. There's also
(34:38):
a lot of students with disabilities in public and private
schools who don't ever need an IEP or individualized education plan.
They don't ever need interventions, they don't need services because
they can function successfully academically, socially, emotionally in the school
every single day. So it's not to say that every
single student with a disability needs a formal plan, just
(34:59):
that when you you should be aware of where you
can access those services. That way, you're not doing like
a back and forth of oh, well, we had them
in this school and then we didn't have the right
services at the school, so we put them in another school,
and then we homeschooled them and then we That can
just cause a lot of change and disruption.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
You know, you mentioned one piece of advocacy, which was
the MTS, the multi tiered services. Are there any other
areas where you are called upon to be more of
an advocate, for example, than a therapist. But you're not
therapists a psychologists because you're doing the testing and as
a result, you end up becoming an advocate. Yes, so
those situations be like so for example, like if my
(35:39):
child was not gifted, which they were, I'm just saying
if they weren't and I was egomaniac, which I'm not.
But my wife is tiger mom, so like, why am
my kids I'm just kidding with the gifted. But like
I'm just joking around, my kid is gifted. I'm going
to take them and get them independently tested and show
you he's gifted. But I'm not talking about that scenario
that that be surprising me. But like other areas where
(36:02):
you actually are an advocate.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
Yes, it can be kind of tricky because there are
certain lines that you don't want to cross. Since a
lot of the people in public education are one just
doing their jobs and doing the absolute best that they can,
so we never want to go in saying or pointing
fingers saying you're doing something so wrong. But there are
certain situations where parents don't know a lot of information
(36:25):
about what to say or what to do or what
questions to ask? So in that situation, I would love
to ask those questions, Like for those parents thinking, oh,
if I had a student in this situation and this
was my child, here are the questions that I would
want to personally ask. So that's kind of the lens
that I'm coming from, rather than someone's doing something wrong
and you need to rectify it. A really good example
(36:46):
is when we do identify that a student has a
disability and they're not performing very well in school. It
can be so frustrating for the parents and for the student, Like,
we don't love to hear that your kid is crying
every single line at the table doing home work. It's
really sad. It creates this negative association with school. We
know that the student needs services, but the curriculum is
(37:06):
often too hard for students. So then what is the solution.
For some students with lower IQs or lower abilities, they
can have what's called a modified curriculum. So it's a
kind of a it's a curriculum that lets you access
the standards in a public education environment, but they're just
at a lower expectation. They're they're very well defined, but
(37:28):
the catch is that you have to have a certain
IQ under a certain number. So there are students who
end up being too high technically for that modified curriculum,
but their cognition doesn't allow them to be successful in school.
So there's a lot of legal problems that we have
that are saying, well, your kid could have benefited from
(37:50):
this modified curriculum, but their IQ is not low enough
to really get that, which it just sounds kind of
silly to say we can't give you that modified curriculum
because that their IQ is two points too high. But
then what's the alternative, right, The alternative is that they
have to meet the demands and the expectations of the
public school curriculum, which is too high. So we have
(38:12):
something way up here and then like way down there,
and some students fall in the middle of that, and
we tell parents, but they won't get their their interventions
and their services. But then it's like, but that's not
enough sometimes. So that's right now, I think the biggest
thing that I've been thinking about and talking to parents about.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
So this has been great. I think a lot of
good topics. I think I'm just I keep thinking about
my friends that are in you know, I'm just like,
how how do we get again. We have a national podcast,
so we'll ask about how you get in touch with
you in a second. But like, how do people like
(38:54):
find you like and you know like or find a
person like you no matter what state they're in, Because
I think it is surprising to me. Obviously the more
educated you are, you have more access to resources, but
and with a lack of education, you don't. Although may
be the opposite, sometimes people are in the bubble, right, So.
Speaker 4 (39:15):
You said the oldest person that you.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
Twenty two, twenty two, not thirty eight like yourself. With
thirty nine, you can't get you can't get therapy from her.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
Stay back Tony too. But we can't evaluate anyone up
to fifty years old. He's in the clear.
Speaker 4 (39:39):
Okay, good, all right, Hey you can that's great.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
Yeah, So, like how would people whatever state they're in,
you know, like, how would they find out about you
or find out about someone like your services?
Speaker 2 (39:53):
So I would say that if your child attends a
public school, there will be a school psychologist assigned to
that school. There will always be a school psychologist that
can be a resource to you. But I think knowing
that information that we just talked about today, like with
that MTSS those three tiers. Know that your student will
probably have to go through those three tiers of intervention,
which takes six to eight weeks per tier before you
(40:15):
even get to that point. So that would be my
first just point. And then there's a lot of private
school psychologists in every city in every state that we
just don't know about. Another really cool option is that
school psychologists who are working in the private sector are
starting tele assessments. That's something that we are starting as
(40:36):
well at our practice. The owner of our clinic, Abby Hartman,
she just started doing tele assessments globally, which is really
really cool. We started partnering with an international company called
Linden Global and basically it allows us to work with
and test and evaluate students internationally. So just online assessments
(40:58):
are a thing now, and that's something that's so important
to note because it's new. But yes, you can. You
can access the school psychologists publicly, privately or remotely.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
Now, I got an idea for Abby, and I got
a great idea. Well, I don't know. I don't want
to get her in trouble, but it should just be
Abby's idea and Abby's probably not one.
Speaker 3 (41:21):
Yeah, you might want to sit down for this one.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
Usually Bill, No, it's not it's a good idea. No,
this is a professional in front of you. Yeah, but
I would start a school psychologist public and private, a
happy hour for them with an award given to either
quarterly or yearly to the school psychologists of the year
that you give and and it would be a happy hour.
(41:47):
It doesn't have to be a happy hour, but like
you give an award every every quarter and get them
somehow to submit stuff you create either an organization or
it's your thing, and then there'd be good referral sources, right,
especially if they're in certain neighborhoods for you or no,
and they're overwhelmed. They're not threatened by you, and they
really they just need to get it off their plate.
Like it's almost like I keep thinking about the public defender.
(42:10):
There's a lot of people that public defenders are people
attorneys for indigen people. But there's a lot of people
that they're not indigen They need the services, but they
can afford a private lawyer. Some public defenders are like,
come on, get out of here, you know, just moving
so they're not threatened by you, that you're a better attorney.
They just want you off the plate because they know
(42:31):
that you don't really qualify for services. You're taking up
their time. You want something for free. But that's probably
not a good client to have. But I'm just saying,
have you reached out to them and maybe made an
effort to do it in one setting or two settings,
so it's not as much ownersome owner's work to hit
one therapist hit another therapist.
Speaker 2 (42:51):
Yeah, we do connect with some public school psychologists, but
we also connect with private therapists in the area because
a lot of times therapists connect us and give referrals
to us and vice versa. So we partner with a
couple therapists right off of Lee Road, and we've actually
met together and done like a coffee like a breakfast
to hob or where we talk about, Okay, here's what
I need and here's what you need, and how can
(43:12):
we come together and kind of like share clients, but
like in a way where we can I can say, ooh,
your specialty is this, So I know that I tested
a client and they have X, Y, and Z, I
know that you can serve them, And then therapists might say, ooh,
you know we were talking on coffee the other morning,
and you said you had a really big need for this,
And I have a client who really does need this evaluation.
(43:34):
Can I put you into contact with them? So I
would say that's a really good example of networking. But
doing something with collective school psychologist would be a really
good idea too. That way, we're all like meeting and
chatting and talking about what we're doing and why. I
think everybody practices a little bit differently too, so learning
how different people practice is really interesting.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
I'm just thinking, what about parents, And there's people I
know this is not what you do, but has some
overlap where they're getting their ready their kids for university
and they've noticed that the kid doesn't have a learning
disability but has a block. My father, and he's still alive,
but I call him out any time I want. I
was always bad at math because when I would sit down,
(44:16):
my father used to yell at me. Yeah, they were
like four plus four right.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
And still I'm not a victim.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
Yeah, crying at the kitchen table doing math.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
Sure, yeah, involved on Yeah, Now I take responsibility. I'm
not a victim, and I just my father. Yes, may
have abused me over math equations, but Ultimately it's still
my responsiblity to figure it out. But there are kids
with blocks. So yeah, blocks with the SAT, blocks with
other stuff. Do you get involved with any of that.
Speaker 2 (44:43):
We do, yes, And we have a lot of students
who are entering college who request an evaluation from us,
and so we will evaluate for things like processing speed,
working memory, things that we talk about blocks with that,
those are the answers to the blocks. Oh, we might
have a tricky ability to storm information in our working memory.
So when we recall on our working memory when it
comes to take a test, we go my mind went blank. Yes,
(45:06):
So we identify those gaps and when we if we
can identify those gaps, we can ask for certain accommodations
during those types of tests. I think the good thing
to point out is you basically only get accommodations if
we can identify a challenge. So if your profile, I thought.
Speaker 1 (45:22):
They were gaming the system, I was thinking about.
Speaker 4 (45:26):
Does the bar does that have do they have any
like anything.
Speaker 2 (45:31):
For sure about that? I know you might have to
look into that.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
You have to look into that. That's a money maker
right there. They just got rid of the logic games
on the L side. Yes, Oh, you're in that. Yeah,
they got rid of it, and I scored perfect score
except the logic game twenty five questions got seventeen wrong. Wow,
and I scored still pretty high on my L side.
If that was out, I don't have a perfect score
(45:57):
on my OL side. They got rid of the games.
Speaker 6 (46:00):
Talking about this college stuff kind of makes me think
because I was in college too, and like not speaking
for myself per se, but like classmates of mine, I know,
like if they had trouble retaining information or things like that,
like they will always go and like pick up adderall,
get adderall right? Do you know what someone has?
Speaker 5 (46:14):
Adderall? Do you know?
Speaker 1 (46:15):
Do you know?
Speaker 5 (46:15):
Do you know?
Speaker 2 (46:16):
So it's like it's a huge problem or a solution.
I'm just like I just yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean
technically it is a solution. But that's exactly what we're
talking about. It is, Oh, you know that you need
to compensate for something, and people will find a way
around it no matter what. So the direct way to
do it is to just identify your own strengths and weaknesses.
That way we can actually recommend something that will help
(46:37):
you rather than just put a band aid over it. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
Yeah, I wish you around. A long time ago, they
had the adderall police. I feel like I didn't take
adderall and I got discriminated against because I couldn't perform
as well as if I just got an adderall.
Speaker 2 (46:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:52):
It does help.
Speaker 2 (46:52):
Yeah, I mean is great for some people.
Speaker 1 (46:55):
Just I'm bummed out about it. Will it help me
play poker better? Maybe?
Speaker 2 (46:59):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (46:59):
Well sure, I'm serious.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
It'll help you sustain attention, memory recall. You'll be laser
focused on that game.
Speaker 6 (47:06):
Oh yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
If you need it. I do need it, suggesting you
have it without needing it.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
Poker.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
I don't play poker, but you.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
But you obviously have people come to you for adderall prescriptions.
Can I get a script.
Speaker 2 (47:18):
From I can't get prescriptions?
Speaker 1 (47:20):
I know, just teasing anyway, I I I any other?
Speaker 5 (47:25):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (47:25):
You got any you got some?
Speaker 5 (47:26):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (47:27):
You got another follow up?
Speaker 6 (47:29):
That was my main too.
Speaker 1 (47:31):
Okay, that's great anyway.
Speaker 4 (47:33):
Jeff, Yeah, great having you on the show.
Speaker 6 (47:40):
Abby.
Speaker 3 (47:40):
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (47:41):
Good information to our guests and listeners where if they
want to reach out to you, they want to just
learn more. Maybe they have a child or children of
their own that they just want to give some information
on how can they get a hold of you. What's
the best way to contact you.
Speaker 2 (47:57):
Yes, so I can give my information and we can
put a link to our website too. But our website
is called hhpsych dot com, so you can go on
to hhsych dot com and get some information. Otherwise, my
name is Abby McCarthy. You can also email me directly
from there. It's a McCarthy at hhpsych dot com. So
if any if you have any questions or concerns, I
(48:18):
will consult with you for the phone and we can
take it from there, or if you want to add.
Speaker 1 (48:22):
All not that, can we get off the recording now
so you have a real conversation.
Speaker 3 (48:32):
Well, thanks for listening.
Speaker 5 (48:33):
The Lawman wants to hear from you, so if you
have any questions, give him a shout out. Follow him
on Instagram at Bill's Lawman. You can also visit the
website at www dot Thelawman dot net and on YouTube
at Bill the Lawman umanski and there'll be placed there
where you can ask questions. And if you have any
questions about your business or anything, just hit them up
and we'll try to get an answer to you. We
(48:55):
try to bring the best advice that we possibly can
and if you thought it was good, talk to your
friends and we'll.
Speaker 3 (50:42):
Well, thanks for listening.
Speaker 5 (50:43):
The Lawman wants to hear from you, so if you
have any questions, give a shout out.
Speaker 3 (50:47):
Follow him on Instagram at Bill's a Lawman.
Speaker 5 (50:49):
You can also visit the website at www dot Thelawman
dot net and on YouTube at Bill the Lawman umanski
and there every place there where you can ask questions.
If you have any questions about your business or anything,
just hit them up and we'll try to get an
answer to you. We try to bring the best advice
that we possibly can. And if you thought it was good,
talk to your friends and we'll see you next week
Lou, I'm coming in out. You're listening to the law
Man's Lounge, a podcast dedicated to help you take back
control of your life and your business.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Here's your host, Bill the law Man, Umansky.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Hey, it's William Manskin the law Man with another rendition
of The law Man's Lounge. Today. After five and a
half years, we've finally got some self help coming in
and not for me, but for my co host Jeff,
who's not working today.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Yeah, it's all for me.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Yes, So, uh, I'm excited about this speaker. We're starting
to diversify our stuff from uh, you know, lawyers and
business owners that do law work and anything related illegal
and I think much more interesting, I think for people.
And I I want to introduce our guest, Abby McCarthy. Hi, Abbey,
(01:01):
and Abby is a licensed school psychologist who's now in
her own practice.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Yes, yes, yes, So our office is in winter Park
on Lee Road, and a lot of our job revolves
around psycho educational testing. So that's really looking at a
student's cognition, their academic performance as well as their social,
emotional and behavioral performance between home, school, and community environments.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Yeah. So one of the reasons we had her on
is because we have a podcast that's designed for lawyers
all over the country, and you know, some things that
are never addressed. And we have some dear friends, some
have worked with me, who had children who had some
relatively serious disabilities, and even though they were lawyers, they
(01:49):
were frustrated with the school system. Believe it or not.
I know you believe it, but as lawyers, you would
think they would called a school and they would start
getting involved, and they would get dead ends, and they
would get frustrated. And as lawyers, I thought, I'm a lawyer,
I just look up the code, I look up the law,
look up the rule, and ultimately they still ended up
getting more and more frustrated. So that's why I kind
(02:10):
of brought you on to kind of talk about some
of those things and how I mean locally, how you'd help,
but certainly nationally some of the same things happen, obviously,
because for instance, people are on autism spectrum and I
like to talk about that today.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Yeah, of course, I think we hear a lot of
the same stories over and over again from parents who
are very frustrated. And no matter who you are or
what position you have, I think coming to a table
at Really any school can be intimidating because it really
feels like everyone else knows what's going on and the
laws behind education except for you. I think one reason
(02:47):
is that they're constantly changing in education, so to keep
yourself very well informed is really difficult unless you work
in it all day every day.
Speaker 4 (02:55):
Yeah, and let's get back though to Abby and and
like how you started and why you started. Though, I'm
kind of curious on your background, your story.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
I do want to hear her story, but prior to
I just would like you know, I know you're a
school psychologist. Genesis just graduated school. Uh, Jeff never went
to school, and I went to too many schools. So
I like just a one sentence analysis of each of us.
You can be honest, and then we'll go into your background.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
I like it.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
I think I'm gonna have to just observe, and then
at the end I'll do a nice wrap up smart
all right, that's pretty small stop recording before we no.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
No, no, we don't.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
We want the whole.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
We want the whole kitten kaboodle.
Speaker 5 (03:42):
Yeh.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Yeah, you gotta be very honest with Genesis. You certainly
coun be honest with me. It's not going to change anything.
But for Genesis, she might have hope. She's still young, and.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
You have just heard my feelings, and I'll cry to
myself to sleep.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
Out there.
Speaker 6 (03:56):
I may need a little help, but not that much,
not as much as our good friend Billy Manski over here.
Speaker 1 (04:01):
Okay, Well, anyway, changing the subject, let's talk about how
your background and how you got into all of this
good stuff.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Sure, so I knew going into the field of psychology
that I love working with kids. I love working with
adults too, but I just really found a passion working
for kids when I was in high school in college,
and then I found out I really love statistics. And
one way to marry those two fields of psychology and
statistics is to become a school psychologist. It's really great
(04:30):
because you get to help kids, you get to work
with adults, you get to consult with parents, and you
get to bring them a lot of the tools that
they need to help the gaps that exist in students functioning. So, yeah,
I went to u CF, stayed there for grad school,
and then right out of grad school, I started working
for a public school system. Really loved it, and then
found that I could also work in private practice with
(04:52):
just a little bit more flexibility. That just aligned with
my goals. So that's how I ended up in private practice.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
That's really cool, you know, for our listeners, because a
lot of our listeners are national as well. At University
of Central Florida about to play the University of Florida
this weekend and about to get crushed. Actually I'm not
sure who's going to get crushed. I'll just say about
to get crushed. But that's interesting you say that I
was a psych major abby when I was in college,
(05:17):
and I love statistics, but I and I was you know,
I think I was going to go organizational psych because
I think there's some marriage of that also as well.
And I don't know what happened. I either my therapist
taught me out of it or just away just you
don't need to be involved with trying to help people.
So I became a lawyer. So so tell us a
(05:38):
little bit about like statistics and what that means, and
you know, tell us a little bit about that. That's interesting.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Yeah, So I don't maybe this is not something that
a lot of people realize in the field of school psychology,
but a lot of the instruments or the tests that
we use to work with kids are NORM referenced, and
you have to know the statistics behind NORM referenced assessments.
So when I say NORM referenced, were typically comparing kids
across the entire United States by these scores of comparison,
and you have to know how these scores of comparison
(06:08):
align with kids by their age level and their grade level,
and how those scores are really developed. When you are
breaking a report down for a parent, you have to
be able to talk to the scores and what they mean.
Sometimes you'll get questions of I guess you're telling me
that my student is very low, low in the middle, high,
or very high. How do you know that information? So
(06:28):
that's where the statistics really come into play. And that's
after the point that a parent even gets their evaluation results,
which we feel like is the longest part of our job.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
So I hear that right. It's special needs.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Yes, yes, So we work with students of varying exceptionalities,
so all the way from gifted to intellectually disabled.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
So I want to and there's so many questions that
we have, and obviously you should be able if I'm
not going down the right path. I want to know
what you did as a school psychologist and what you
do now. But before getting there, I just you know,
you talked about gifted children, and I remember I got
thrown out of three schools, and both my boys they
(07:15):
went to n y U and they both were valed Victorians.
But when they were younger, especially my youngest, you know,
they wanted to put them on medicine like myself, and
there was a big push to get them on what
would be today's equivalent of whatever, whatever the today's equivalent
of riddling was, whatever it was, because he had a
hard time sitting, he had a hard time paying attention,
(07:39):
and they made us actually take them for some therapy,
which was interesting because my father in law was a
pediatric prologists. Before he even got to grade school, he
got thrown out of three schools. He said to my wife,
he's like, you know, I know you're a working lawyer.
To my wife's a lawyer, he's like, you might have
to consider staying home. It's not just that he's got
attention deficit disorder. He may not adapt well, he said.
(08:02):
Daycares are not natural things. Anyway, he went to some therapy,
got out of it. And went to school, but they
wanted to push them on some medication. We thankfully stop
that and by the time he was in third fourth
grade and had the right teachers, he grew out of that.
But as a school psychologist, when you're dealing gifted children,
(08:24):
did you ever come across that? Now you can be
an advocate, but before, like what happens in that case,
when you have kids that are gifted, they're board, they're acting.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Out and happens a lot too. I think there's a
lot of misconceptions about what a profile of a gifted
student looks like. There's a lot of students who are
twice exceptional, meaning they have the qualities of a gifted student,
but they also have maybe attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, and
it's obviously up to a parent to medicate or not medicate.
(08:57):
But the goal was also to provide some social emotional
strategies executive functioning strategies so a student can overcome and
compensate for some of those. That way, they don't feel
board in class. That way, they don't feel like they
need to get up and run around constantly all day
long or all around the floor or interrupt Some of
those are such developmentally appropriate behaviors, meaning we expect to
(09:18):
see them from kids at a certain age, and then
others it looks so much different than every other student.
So yeah, it's really asking how is this behavior different
in the developmental lens from other kids?
Speaker 1 (09:33):
So when you were a school psychologist, tell me what
you did, Like, I'm just curious, and I have some
questions along with that, but I want to ask, like,
what did you do when you worked for the public
school system?
Speaker 2 (09:43):
So we typically were assigned to schools, so you had
the responsibility of testing, meeting with parents, working with kids,
collaborating with counselors and social workers in order to help kids.
Every single day. I would say that not every day
looked the same. A lot of mornings I would start testing.
Other mornings I would be in meetings reviewing the results
(10:05):
with parents. Other times you were helping kids in crisis.
So if a student is really struggling with their behavior,
like aggression, even self injurious behavior, we were also called
on to help intervene during those crises.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Who's the one that called on you? Was it the
teacher or someone in guidance or the dean of How
did you get involved? Like you're not involved with every
single kid in the school, are you?
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Or is there not? Usually so, it's typically the students
who need to be evaluated or have already been evaluated
and receive services. There are times where there's a student
who has not been evaluated, has not been identified as
having a disability, and they might be having a tantrument class,
or they might be having a little bit of a meltdown,
or might be having struggles with executive functioning skills. And
(10:51):
in that case, the teacher or the front office guidance
an administrator might say, Hey, we really need some help
in this classroom. Can you just stop by and maybe
help d scale so you can you have the umbrella
of working with every kid if you need to.
Speaker 4 (11:06):
And how are the and you mentioned statistics and then
also giving the evaluation reports. Is it different working with
the special needs as far as like statistics? Do you
have those statistics for like more behavioral stats versus like
educational Is there a difference in that? Like I feel
(11:27):
like with special needs you almost have there's a lot
of focus on you know, having to get them to
sit down and stay sitting, and then and then there's
also the education aspect why they're in school to begin with,
is there a difference there or what's the problem or
is or do you give stats for those kind of things?
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Yeah, I think that when you're working through the lens
of behavior, it's a little bit different because you are
trying to reach a goal for a student. So if
they have a behavior goal of interrupting less or keeping
their hands to themselves, you would measure that in a
little bit of a different way than you measure things
like IQ, which is when the statistics come into play.
(12:05):
So for example, if your IQ score is a one hundred,
you're at the fiftieth percentile, so you you have scored
better than fifty percent of your same age peers, and
then the scales kind of go up and down from
there depending on what your IQ is and your other
gaps like academic gaps and behavioral gaps. You can meet
the eligibility requirements for certain disabilities and then get services
(12:26):
for them on the back end. So that's when we
talk about the statistical likelihood of someone having a disability,
which is kind of the pathway to get services.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
There ever been in situations where it's a sad question,
but where parents kind of gave up too early and
either on one hand, push their kids into disability to
get help that maybe they didn't I know, that's a
weird question they didn't necessarily need, or the opposite, they
(12:57):
were resistant to the help they need.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Yeah, both, for sure, that's something that we experience pretty frequently,
and honestly, both equally. You would think that maybe it
would lean one way or another, But I think there's
a certain point of maybe you imagine your kids to
be a certain way, or perform a certain way, or
to be gifted, and some parents have a very hard
(13:21):
time unless they fit that mold of the expectation. So
when students fall over that expectation or under that expectation,
it can be kind of hard to come to terms with.
Sometimes parents are just looking for an answer. So then
when we provide them with the answers that they've been
looking for for so long, they're super grateful and they're like,
finally we just have an answer of what's going on.
(13:43):
And other parents react with anger. Other parents react with
like a lot of frustration, tears, crying, and you expect
every reaction. So and that's that's totally appropriate to think, Oh, Okay,
they're just having an emotional response to new information. So
that's part of our job too, just knowing and expecting
that we're going to be an advocate for students but
(14:04):
also for parents when they get to the table.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
So you eventually went into private practice. Tell us a
little bit. Was there a motivating factor? Did you get
frustrated with the school system? Was there what motivated you
to get into private practice? Did you consider before that
maybe going to a private school or a university or
something else different, or what was your What were you thinking?
Speaker 5 (14:29):
Abby?
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Yeah, So I really loved the kids and the adults
that I worked with in public schools. I look forward
to going to work every single day because I love
the job that I do. But I did feel frustrated
that I wasn't really able to practice as flexibly as
I really wanted. And I think there were some things
that I wish I could tell parents, wish I could
communicate to parents that I felt like I really couldn't
(14:52):
In public schools, there's no matter what county or state
that you're in, there is just a lot of red
tape that prevents you from speaking up sometimes or saying
the thing that you really want to say in a
meeting and My personality is very yes, outgoing, but I've outspoken.
So I really want to say, hey, if I were
a parent right now, I would want to know this,
(15:13):
But I don't want to get in trouble in my job.
So I felt like I was kind of working for
a system that I didn't necessarily agree with, even though
I loved my kids and I loved the adults in
the schools. So that's what inspired me to kind of
make a shift.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
So let me talk about that, because we have listeners
here who have children, you know that may have kids
either on the spectrum or other disabilities or even gifted,
and so just so that they're listening and processing and
analyzing this because what you say may trigger some thoughts
to them. Even at that you know they may not
(15:46):
have heard it, right, we're thinking it to themselves because
they're smart. So what would be some of the things
that you wanted to say to parents but you felt
you couldn't say because you would get in trouble.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
So the first thing is, I think when you have
a struggle with your student, whether it is academically related
or social emotional behavioral, it doesn't really matter what the
one problem is. But I think a lot of parents think, oh,
I have a meeting stuff with the school, and everyone's
going to be there, so it's great, we're going to
really tackle this problem tomorrow. And what the reality is
(16:17):
is that one meeting is just the start of months
of often hard work that our team and parents have
to do. So for example, in a school system, in
really any school system, we have something called the multi
Tiered System of Support, so you'll hear it as MTSS.
For example, there's three tiers to this, Tier one, Tier two,
tier three, and they just use them as terms to
(16:38):
group students by where they're, where they're at in school,
and what they're doing. So Tier one is whole group instruction,
meaning you're walking into a classroom and you're seeing the
entire class learn with their peers. When a teacher or
provider notices that a student is struggling and reading, math,
or behavior, they at request that they go to a
Tier two intervention group so they receive a little bit
(16:59):
extra help in whatever area that they're struggling in. It
might be reading, math, social emotional skills, behavior, and they
provide these interventions for about six to eight weeks. It
can be in a small group, but Basically, you're just
getting something extra to help close those gaps. They monitor
that student's progress hoping that okay, we can close those
math gaps, we can close those reading gaps, or those
behavior gaps. If there's not enough progress, or if a
(17:21):
student continues to kind of decline in performance, they move
them to the highest level of intervention, which is a
Tier three, for another six to eight weeks. I say
this because, well, Tier three is the most intensive level intervention.
But before you can even get an evaluation for your student,
your student has had to move through all three tiers
of intervention. So it's very disappointing to hear the pattern
(17:44):
of oh, but your student's only in a Tier one
or a Tier two, so you have to come back
here in eight weeks, and eight weeks can feel pretty
devastating to a parent who knows my kidneys up tomorrow,
not in eight weeks. And the whole entire point of
this MTSS tiered system is to make that we're not
evaluating kids too fast or over identifying kids, so it
has a great purpose. However, the timeline can be really
(18:07):
hard because we're not legally allowed to test kids unless
they've been through all through or all through those three tiers.
The norm right, it's we can't do that even if
we know a student needs help, even if we know
as student desperately needs an evaluation. The idea of MTSS
is great because you're saying, ooh, what if this is
(18:28):
not a true disability. What if they missed three weeks
of school due to a hurricane and now they're behind
in math that we can close the gap for remediable basically,
Or what if they had not the best teacher last
year so their behavior is not very reflective who they
truly are. Let's give them six to eight weeks with
some good interventions, and the hope is, okay, we can
(18:49):
we can kind of differentially identify if this is a
true disability or if this is just a small learning
gap that can be closed, you know, within a few
months of time. We had a really big problem in
education years and years ago where we were over identifying
kids with disabilities that didn't actually have disabilities. They just
had small gaps in their performance that could be closed.
So MTSS was the solution to that. But it's very disappointing.
Speaker 4 (19:13):
Who's the clientele.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
There, really the Greater Orlando area we work with both
public and private schools. Any family is able to go
outside of that public school system and get an evaluation,
but typically private practices or private pay so it can
be difficult to navigate. So with a private practice, you
don't have to wait through those three tiers of intervention.
(19:35):
You can say, hey, I have identified that my student
has a learning disability. I'm bringing this comprehensive report to
the school's table, trying to kind of get ahead of that.
But the school will work with all ages. Yes, our
youngest client has been two years old and our oldest
client has been twenty two.
Speaker 4 (19:53):
Wow, okay, Yes, have you ever thought about maybe opening
up your services to law firm business owners? Maybe found
that are I don't know, acting childish way sometimes in
other times, you know, try to like throw out the
man card and be like, you know, I'm I'm trying to,
(20:14):
you know, become a strong, powerful I don't know who
I'm talking about, but.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
Maybe Ford I was emasculated for twenty eight years, changed
quite a bit. Said to me this morning. It's good
that your firm sometimes with me now, and I should
have heard that my first two years of my marriage.
By the way, forget where its Yeah, yes, we'll just
(20:45):
move on anyway. What's great about that passive, aggressive and
often like really crappy way you just talked about me
is that she'll be able to evaluate you as a
result of that.
Speaker 4 (20:57):
Oh, yes, you're on your best behavior.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
No, I'm not on any kind of behavior. And I'm
just trying to have boundaries. I'm turning over a new leaf. Yeah,
and I feel like I feel like your comments to
me were well taken, because I know you're trying to
be direct, but you have an issue with communication. So
even though you were, you were insulting me. I will,
(21:24):
I will, I will take what you're saying. You don't
have to read through and kind of analyze. Maybe you
could help me, I can.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
I can help a little with.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
That, okay, but we'll talk about it later if you
don't like and we can do it, okay, thank you. However,
I would say that the joy of being a child
is is that I never grow old, and that in
botox so it helps in testosterone. But that's too much
information anyway. So, uh, we have another young lady here
(21:56):
who is not a child anymore, who always asks great questions,
and we'd like to turn it over to Miss Jen.
Speaker 6 (22:04):
Hello everyone. So yeah, I feel like my question got
answered earlier. But the question I was going to ask
you was like, what has to happen for a parent
to say, hmm, something's not right and to reach out
to you, Like is it like only bad behavior or
did the teachers have to see something in the student
to contact you? Like what is the first indicator usually
that you get like okay, I need to go check
(22:24):
out this kid now.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Yeah. Usually I would say teachers are the first people
to bring it up. Sometimes parents are the first people
to bring it up if and parents know their students
the best, right, parents know their kids better than teachers. However,
from an academic lens, if a teacher is observing a
student doing reading math, has been through interventions like those
three tiers and their progress is the exact same, that
(22:47):
teacher will come to a meeting with the support staff
and say, hey, we've been working on this for sixteen
weeks and we're at the exact same spot of understanding
and comprehension. I think that there is something deeper going
on here. I've let the parents know, and the parents
are really open to suggestions having a meeting, potentially doing
an evaluation but if it's behavior, we typically observe it
(23:09):
right away. We typically see it in the classrooms and
shared centers and the cafeteria, and that is just it's
pretty quick. The academics take a little bit longer to identify,
just because you have to go through a series of
assessments and wait. But with behavior, I would say it's
pretty fast at school either, I observe it, teachers call.
Some parents will identify it early and say, hey, just
(23:33):
so you know, he struggles with X, Y and Z,
watch out for it. Can you help? And that's a
great heads up. I think transparency in the school system
is something that we take for granted, and the more
transparent a parent is with us, we're so appreciative and
so grateful. Obviously, you can't always anticipate that not all
parents know that their children have behavioral struggles at school,
but we appreciate so much when a parent just gives
(23:55):
us the full story, full open transparency, because then we
can help their kids the best at school. Exactly.
Speaker 6 (24:01):
I can imagine how in denials some parents might because
no parent really wants to hear that their child may
not be what was considered normal per se. But like
I can still definitely see like how you appreciate the
parents that you know are willing to work with you.
And another question, So earlier before you came in, we
joked and they were saying, how like a shrink was here,
But after like hearing what you do now, would you
consider yourself a shrink because you're not a therapist. You're right,
(24:23):
You're a psychology right right right, So it's interesting too
how psychologists can take different roles.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
So, like I specialize in educational psychology. Educational psychology does
involves like reading and math, but it also involves social
emotional regulation and therapy, and we do provide some counseling services.
So I think when people think of like a stereotypical
shrink or psychologist, they think of like a couch and this,
and like there's definitely a place for that.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
I'm about to ask some serious questions. Yeah, so tell
me about your childhood.
Speaker 2 (24:59):
I'll just play down.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
It is allowed. Is there any fault daddy issues? I
mean we're already here right now. I mean we have
whiskey burb. Don't turn off the light please, Genesis. Okay,
so we can avoid those questions.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
But yes, it's definitely something that I think maybe people
hear the word psychologists and they think, oh, you do
the same job as every other psychologist in the world.
But to be when you do psychology, you really pick
what you want to specialize in. And I love kids
so much. I just found my strength in psychology. So
I get to do, you know, all the things that
(25:45):
I like to do every single day.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
So I'm gonna I'm gonna dovetail or add Genesis asked
you a good question and then follow up. But here's
the third part of that question. So that's when you're
a school psychologist. Like, so you've explained what that first
trick is when you're working as a school psychologist. And
the second question she asked you, you know, joking around
about shrink, you know, what is a school psychologist? What
(26:08):
does school psychologists do? But the third question is not
you're in private practice and you know, parents may not
know that you exist. It may not even know that
there's a private school psychologist, right any parent educated not educated?
So so how does I mean, how does that come about?
(26:29):
How do you get your name out there? How do
you educate people? And how do parents understand that you
have your own private practice? And what you can do
for them.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
It is kind of hard to get the word out
and less parents know you or you have a word
of mouth, or a parent can say, hey, I worked
with this clinic and they did a really great job,
or they had really great social skills rapport with my kid.
I would say the main way that we get, you know,
our practice out is by word of mouth. But we've
also been going to clinics like No More because that's
(27:01):
where a lot of things start. While a lot of
issues do begin in the classroom in a school setting,
other issues begin from a medical lens where parents are
taking their children to doctor's offices and saying, hey, I
don't know what's going on, but my kid's behavior looks
like X, Y, and Z, and I think my kid
may be on the autism spectrum. So also connecting with
(27:21):
places like Numors and just little different children's hospitals and
private schools, going there, telling them about our services, sending
them messages, meeting with them, and explaining the value that
we bring to the table has been helpful because then
other places in the Greater Orlando area have been referring
to us, you know, for parents, so.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
I want to know more like in your role now
as a private school psychologist. Take us through some of
the things that you do. I don't want to presume,
like the word advocate sometimes comes to mind. You're not
a lawyer, but the but you're an advocate that may
be more more needed than a lawyer and that particular situation.
So tell us, like what you do for people that
(28:04):
are going to hire you for their children or their situation,
or their school or whatever else that I may be missing.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Yeah, I would think the most important thing is to
collect background information and presenting problem. That way we know
what's already been done and what needs to be done.
So if a parent is working through a school system,
one of my first questions would be what has been
going on lately for how long? And then have you
already received an evaluation from the school, Because if you've
(28:30):
already received an evaluation from the school, then our conversation
is a lot different. Most of the conversations that I
have with parents are I think my kid needs an evaluation.
The wait list at almost every other place is six
to eight months long, and I don't have six to
eight months to wait. So then that tells me, Okay,
I can tell you about our services. I can tell
(28:51):
you that I can look at your student's IQ, your
overall cognitive ability see if there's a gap that exists
in that student's cognitive ability. We also look at their
ability to see if there's a gap in their academics
that really aligns or matches up with a gap in
their cognition. We'd also look at all their academics like reading, math,
orthographic processing, writing, photological processing to see if there's a
(29:13):
deficit there, and their social emotional skills. So like externalizing behaviors,
internalizing behaviors things related to ADHD. Some parents don't know
what's going on, so they're like, just evaluate them comprehensively
and help me figure out what I can do next
steps of schools. Other parents are like, hey, I really
think my kid has ADHD or clinical anxiety or depression
(29:36):
or our fit which is avoidant restrictive food and take disorder.
So just a couple of things that we're hearing right now.
Or it's like hot topics. Dyslexia is a really big
hot topic right now, So we can evaluate for those
things if a parent suspects them.
Speaker 6 (29:52):
Is the art What was the second to last one
is that like food not food disorder, but eating disorder
type it.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
It kind of falls in that our FIT is avoidant
restrictive food intake disorder. So instead of not wanting to
eat well, you do not want to eat when you
have ur FID. It's almost like a repulsion to food,
like I don't like the texture of this food and
picking it up and smelling it makes me gag.
Speaker 6 (30:15):
I just recently saw TikTok videos about that, Like this
dude just gagging over a pickle.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Yeah, wero, like literally a pickle.
Speaker 6 (30:21):
He was about to throw up in everything.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
That was crazy. Yes, Usually kids and adults with our
FID have nutritional deficiencies as a result of the ARTFIT
because they only eat like two to three different kinds
of food based on their texture, appearance, size, smell things
like that, and it causes them to not be able
to function as well in everyday life, like they're constantly fatigued,
or they have bad blood work for example come back,
(30:44):
or they lose a lot of weight and at lunchtime
you won't see them eating any of the foods that
are offered, and they end up skipping a lot of
meals and you offer them new things, fun things, colorful things,
treats and it's just totally repulsive to them.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Do you provide the therapy for.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
So for specifically to Arfid, we would refer them to
a food therapist, but for other things we can do
them in house.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
So, Jeff, you know, with my I think with my eldest,
you know, and they don't usually have any textra issues.
I remember, you know us, you know, having a psych
degree in nine years of therapy, I thought, well, we'll
just take our kid for sushi and we and you know,
he was like five or six, and he's like, I'm
(31:28):
not eating that, and like his mom and I like,
of course, you're gonna eat it. We just paid for it,
You're gonna eat it. So he jammed down some like,
oh it's caviar actually one boy.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
Yes, that's a tricky one.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
And you know how he got us back. He up
chucked on someone that was just asking his person to
be married on his shoulder. Yes, and my son likes
caviar now though, So I think my therapy helped. I
don't know if we really needed.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
To kill here's a tricky one too. I mean that's
kind of a hard I mean mentally also, I mean
when you find out okay, Yeah, you're can to eat
fish eggs. That's kind of hard for kids to for process. Yeah,
and the texture can be kind of funny.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
Tomatoes seems to be a big texture issue.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
For kids, and yeah, that can be sure.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Yeah, so that's kind of cool. I it's just interesting
to me because I'm thinking of all my friends that
their child was diagnosed, for example, on the spectrum, and
they never talked about a school psychologist. They always talked
about getting therapy for their kid. They're having frustration, and
I'm just wondering, Like, I have a friend now. I
(32:35):
grabbed my phone to take a note. I don't want
to mention his name on the areas an attorney and
he you know, I gave him some resources. Definitely give
me your name. But like I think his kid is young,
four or five, like so he hasn't really entered. I
hold you when you go to kindergarten. Jed, you just
got out of kindergarten.
Speaker 6 (32:55):
Like I was just yesterday.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
I don't know. I think you're like, what like three
or four kindergarten? It's five oh five, yes, five six?
Speaker 4 (33:04):
You just.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Kindergarten.
Speaker 6 (33:07):
I met like second grade.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
I think stop ringing. I think the phone not you understands,
but I think like he his child hasn't started kindergarten,
so and I think they did do testing. So where
would you come in that situation?
Speaker 2 (33:24):
So if a student has already been tested, I would
ask for the evaluation report, just with the.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Permission of the kindergarten.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Oh yeah yeah. And so someone just says, hey, I
really noticed my student is struggling. We did a pre
K evaluation. I would look at that evaluation report just
to see what instruments they used, what kind of test batteries,
and really what they looked for. Sometimes we're looking for
a developmental delay. Sometimes we're looking just at autism, which
is pretty comprehensive. Other times we're looking at speech and
language evaluations. So i'd really review that comprehensive report just
(33:54):
to see if they made an eligibility determination, like did
they diagnose, you know, say that he met that eligibility
for a certain developmental delay. From there, I would ask
questions like are you interested in receiving regular therapy or
counseling services or even behavior therapy for your student? Where
is just going to go for kindergarten? Are we looking
at public or private options, because all of those things
(34:17):
really influence how your student gets services. In private schools,
they're not bound to deliver services to your students no
matter what type of disability they have, whereas public schools
are legally bound to give their students services if they
have an IEP or an individualized education plan. There's also
(34:38):
a lot of students with disabilities in public and private
schools who don't ever need an IEP or individualized education plan.
They don't ever need interventions, they don't need services because
they can function successfully academically, socially, emotionally in the school
every single day. So it's not to say that every
single student with a disability needs a formal plan, just
(34:59):
that when you you should be aware of where you
can access those services. That way, you're not doing like
a back and forth of oh, well, we had them
in this school and then we didn't have the right
services at the school, so we put them in another school,
and then we homeschooled them and then we That can
just cause a lot of change and disruption.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
You know, you mentioned one piece of advocacy, which was
the MTS, the multi tiered services. Are there any other
areas where you are called upon to be more of
an advocate, for example, than a therapist. But you're not
therapists a psychologists because you're doing the testing and as
a result, you end up becoming an advocate. Yes, so
those situations be like so for example, like if my
(35:39):
child was not gifted, which they were, I'm just saying
if they weren't and I was egomaniac, which I'm not.
But my wife is tiger mom, so like, why am
my kids I'm just kidding with the gifted. But like
I'm just joking around, my kid is gifted. I'm going
to take them and get them independently tested and show
you he's gifted. But I'm not talking about that scenario
that that be surprising me. But like other areas where
(36:02):
you actually are an advocate.
Speaker 2 (36:05):
Yes, it can be kind of tricky because there are
certain lines that you don't want to cross. Since a
lot of the people in public education are one just
doing their jobs and doing the absolute best that they can,
so we never want to go in saying or pointing
fingers saying you're doing something so wrong. But there are
certain situations where parents don't know a lot of information
(36:25):
about what to say or what to do or what
questions to ask? So in that situation, I would love
to ask those questions, Like for those parents thinking, oh,
if I had a student in this situation and this
was my child, here are the questions that I would
want to personally ask. So that's kind of the lens
that I'm coming from, rather than someone's doing something wrong
and you need to rectify it. A really good example
(36:46):
is when we do identify that a student has a
disability and they're not performing very well in school. It
can be so frustrating for the parents and for the student, Like,
we don't love to hear that your kid is crying
every single line at the table doing home work. It's
really sad. It creates this negative association with school. We
know that the student needs services, but the curriculum is
(37:06):
often too hard for students. So then what is the solution.
For some students with lower IQs or lower abilities, they
can have what's called a modified curriculum. So it's a
kind of a it's a curriculum that lets you access
the standards in a public education environment, but they're just
at a lower expectation. They're they're very well defined, but
(37:28):
the catch is that you have to have a certain
IQ under a certain number. So there are students who
end up being too high technically for that modified curriculum,
but their cognition doesn't allow them to be successful in school.
So there's a lot of legal problems that we have
that are saying, well, your kid could have benefited from
(37:50):
this modified curriculum, but their IQ is not low enough
to really get that, which it just sounds kind of
silly to say we can't give you that modified curriculum
because that their IQ is two points too high. But
then what's the alternative, right, The alternative is that they
have to meet the demands and the expectations of the
public school curriculum, which is too high. So we have
(38:12):
something way up here and then like way down there,
and some students fall in the middle of that, and
we tell parents, but they won't get their their interventions
and their services. But then it's like, but that's not
enough sometimes. So that's right now, I think the biggest
thing that I've been thinking about and talking to parents about.
Speaker 1 (38:31):
So this has been great. I think a lot of
good topics. I think I'm just I keep thinking about
my friends that are in you know, I'm just like,
how how do we get again. We have a national podcast,
so we'll ask about how you get in touch with
you in a second. But like, how do people like
(38:54):
find you like and you know like or find a
person like you no matter what state they're in, Because
I think it is surprising to me. Obviously the more
educated you are, you have more access to resources, but
and with a lack of education, you don't. Although may
be the opposite, sometimes people are in the bubble, right, So.
Speaker 4 (39:15):
You said the oldest person that you.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
Twenty two, twenty two, not thirty eight like yourself. With
thirty nine, you can't get you can't get therapy from her.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
Stay back Tony too. But we can't evaluate anyone up
to fifty years old. He's in the clear.
Speaker 4 (39:39):
Okay, good, all right, Hey you can that's great.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
Yeah, So, like how would people whatever state they're in,
you know, like, how would they find out about you
or find out about someone like your services?
Speaker 2 (39:53):
So I would say that if your child attends a
public school, there will be a school psychologist assigned to
that school. There will always be a school psychologist that
can be a resource to you. But I think knowing
that information that we just talked about today, like with
that MTSS those three tiers. Know that your student will
probably have to go through those three tiers of intervention,
which takes six to eight weeks per tier before you
(40:15):
even get to that point. So that would be my
first just point. And then there's a lot of private
school psychologists in every city in every state that we
just don't know about. Another really cool option is that
school psychologists who are working in the private sector are
starting tele assessments. That's something that we are starting as
(40:36):
well at our practice. The owner of our clinic, Abby Hartman,
she just started doing tele assessments globally, which is really
really cool. We started partnering with an international company called
Linden Global and basically it allows us to work with
and test and evaluate students internationally. So just online assessments
(40:58):
are a thing now, and that's something that's so important
to note because it's new. But yes, you can. You
can access the school psychologists publicly, privately or remotely.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
Now, I got an idea for Abby, and I got
a great idea. Well, I don't know. I don't want
to get her in trouble, but it should just be
Abby's idea and Abby's probably not one.
Speaker 3 (41:21):
Yeah, you might want to sit down for this one.
Speaker 1 (41:23):
Usually Bill, No, it's not it's a good idea. No,
this is a professional in front of you. Yeah, but
I would start a school psychologist public and private, a
happy hour for them with an award given to either
quarterly or yearly to the school psychologists of the year
that you give and and it would be a happy hour.
(41:47):
It doesn't have to be a happy hour, but like
you give an award every every quarter and get them
somehow to submit stuff you create either an organization or
it's your thing, and then there'd be good referral sources, right,
especially if they're in certain neighborhoods for you or no,
and they're overwhelmed. They're not threatened by you, and they
really they just need to get it off their plate.
Like it's almost like I keep thinking about the public defender.
(42:10):
There's a lot of people that public defenders are people
attorneys for indigen people. But there's a lot of people
that they're not indigen They need the services, but they
can afford a private lawyer. Some public defenders are like,
come on, get out of here, you know, just moving
so they're not threatened by you, that you're a better attorney.
They just want you off the plate because they know
(42:31):
that you don't really qualify for services. You're taking up
their time. You want something for free. But that's probably
not a good client to have. But I'm just saying,
have you reached out to them and maybe made an
effort to do it in one setting or two settings,
so it's not as much ownersome owner's work to hit
one therapist hit another therapist.
Speaker 2 (42:51):
Yeah, we do connect with some public school psychologists, but
we also connect with private therapists in the area because
a lot of times therapists connect us and give referrals
to us and vice versa. So we partner with a
couple therapists right off of Lee Road, and we've actually
met together and done like a coffee like a breakfast
to hob or where we talk about, Okay, here's what
I need and here's what you need, and how can
(43:12):
we come together and kind of like share clients, but
like in a way where we can I can say, ooh,
your specialty is this, So I know that I tested
a client and they have X, Y, and Z, I
know that you can serve them, And then therapists might say, ooh,
you know we were talking on coffee the other morning,
and you said you had a really big need for this,
And I have a client who really does need this evaluation.
(43:34):
Can I put you into contact with them? So I
would say that's a really good example of networking. But
doing something with collective school psychologist would be a really
good idea too. That way, we're all like meeting and
chatting and talking about what we're doing and why. I
think everybody practices a little bit differently too, so learning
how different people practice is really interesting.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
I'm just thinking, what about parents, And there's people I
know this is not what you do, but has some
overlap where they're getting their ready their kids for university
and they've noticed that the kid doesn't have a learning
disability but has a block. My father, and he's still alive,
but I call him out any time I want. I
was always bad at math because when I would sit down,
(44:16):
my father used to yell at me. Yeah, they were
like four plus four right.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
And still I'm not a victim.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
Yeah, crying at the kitchen table doing math.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
Sure, yeah, involved on Yeah, Now I take responsibility. I'm
not a victim, and I just my father. Yes, may
have abused me over math equations, but Ultimately it's still
my responsiblity to figure it out. But there are kids
with blocks. So yeah, blocks with the SAT, blocks with
other stuff. Do you get involved with any of that.
Speaker 2 (44:43):
We do, yes, And we have a lot of students
who are entering college who request an evaluation from us,
and so we will evaluate for things like processing speed,
working memory, things that we talk about blocks with that,
those are the answers to the blocks. Oh, we might
have a tricky ability to storm information in our working memory.
So when we recall on our working memory when it
comes to take a test, we go my mind went blank. Yes,
(45:06):
So we identify those gaps and when we if we
can identify those gaps, we can ask for certain accommodations
during those types of tests. I think the good thing
to point out is you basically only get accommodations if
we can identify a challenge. So if your profile, I thought.
Speaker 1 (45:22):
They were gaming the system, I was thinking about.
Speaker 4 (45:26):
Does the bar does that have do they have any
like anything.
Speaker 2 (45:31):
For sure about that? I know you might have to
look into that.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
You have to look into that. That's a money maker
right there. They just got rid of the logic games
on the L side. Yes, Oh, you're in that. Yeah,
they got rid of it, and I scored perfect score
except the logic game twenty five questions got seventeen wrong. Wow,
and I scored still pretty high on my L side.
If that was out, I don't have a perfect score
(45:57):
on my OL side. They got rid of the games.
Speaker 6 (46:00):
Talking about this college stuff kind of makes me think
because I was in college too, and like not speaking
for myself per se, but like classmates of mine, I know,
like if they had trouble retaining information or things like that,
like they will always go and like pick up adderall,
get adderall right? Do you know what someone has?
Speaker 5 (46:14):
Adderall? Do you know?
Speaker 1 (46:15):
Do you know?
Speaker 5 (46:15):
Do you know?
Speaker 2 (46:16):
So it's like it's a huge problem or a solution.
I'm just like I just yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean
technically it is a solution. But that's exactly what we're
talking about. It is, Oh, you know that you need
to compensate for something, and people will find a way
around it no matter what. So the direct way to
do it is to just identify your own strengths and weaknesses.
That way we can actually recommend something that will help
(46:37):
you rather than just put a band aid over it. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:40):
Yeah, I wish you around. A long time ago, they
had the adderall police. I feel like I didn't take
adderall and I got discriminated against because I couldn't perform
as well as if I just got an adderall.
Speaker 2 (46:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:52):
It does help.
Speaker 2 (46:52):
Yeah, I mean is great for some people.
Speaker 1 (46:55):
Just I'm bummed out about it. Will it help me
play poker better? Maybe?
Speaker 2 (46:59):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (46:59):
Well sure, I'm serious.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
It'll help you sustain attention, memory recall. You'll be laser
focused on that game.
Speaker 6 (47:06):
Oh yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (47:07):
If you need it. I do need it, suggesting you
have it without needing it.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
Poker.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
I don't play poker, but you.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
But you obviously have people come to you for adderall prescriptions.
Can I get a script.
Speaker 2 (47:18):
From I can't get prescriptions?
Speaker 1 (47:20):
I know, just teasing anyway, I I I any other?
Speaker 5 (47:25):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (47:25):
You got any you got some?
Speaker 5 (47:26):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (47:27):
You got another follow up?
Speaker 6 (47:29):
That was my main too.
Speaker 1 (47:31):
Okay, that's great anyway.
Speaker 4 (47:33):
Jeff, Yeah, great having you on the show.
Speaker 6 (47:40):
Abby.
Speaker 3 (47:40):
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (47:41):
Good information to our guests and listeners where if they
want to reach out to you, they want to just
learn more. Maybe they have a child or children of
their own that they just want to give some information
on how can they get a hold of you. What's
the best way to contact you.
Speaker 2 (47:57):
Yes, so I can give my information and we can
put a link to our website too. But our website
is called hhpsych dot com, so you can go on
to hhsych dot com and get some information. Otherwise, my
name is Abby McCarthy. You can also email me directly
from there. It's a McCarthy at hhpsych dot com. So
if any if you have any questions or concerns, I
(48:18):
will consult with you for the phone and we can
take it from there, or if you want to add.
Speaker 1 (48:22):
All not that, can we get off the recording now
so you have a real conversation.
Speaker 3 (48:32):
Well, thanks for listening.
Speaker 5 (48:33):
The Lawman wants to hear from you, so if you
have any questions, give him a shout out. Follow him
on Instagram at Bill's Lawman. You can also visit the
website at www dot Thelawman dot net and on YouTube
at Bill the Lawman umanski and there'll be placed there
where you can ask questions. And if you have any
questions about your business or anything, just hit them up
and we'll try to get an answer to you. We
(48:55):
try to bring the best advice that we possibly can
and if you thought it was good, talk to your
friends and we'll.
Speaker 3 (50:42):
Well, thanks for listening.
Speaker 5 (50:43):
The Lawman wants to hear from you, so if you
have any questions, give a shout out.
Speaker 3 (50:47):
Follow him on Instagram at Bill's a Lawman.
Speaker 5 (50:49):
You can also visit the website at www dot Thelawman
dot net and on YouTube at Bill the Lawman umanski
and there every place there where you can ask questions.
If you have any questions about your business or anything,
just hit them up and we'll try to get an
answer to you. We try to bring the best advice
that we possibly can. And if you thought it was good,
talk to your friends and we'll see you next week
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