Mockingbird: Demystifying Legal Marketing with Conrad Saam

🎙️ Brand Affinity vs. Brand Awareness with Conrad Saam

In this episode, we dive deep into the difference between brand awareness and brand affinity with marketing expert Conrad Saam. It’s not just about getting your name out there—it’s about making people actually like you.
🔹 Why brand affinity matters more than impressions
🔹 How businesses can build trust beyond ads and billboards
🔹 The power of real-world connections in a digital age
🔹 Why local marketing is evolving beyond link building

If you want to stand out, it’s not enough to be seen—you need to be remembered. Tune in for key insights on building lasting relationships with your audience! 🎧



Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-lawman-s-lounge--4267400/support.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
I'm paying you that I'm coming in.

Speaker 2 (00:07):
Now.

Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to The law Man's Lounge, a podcast dedicated
to help you take back control of your life and
your business. Here's your host, Bill the law Man. You Manski, Hey,
it's Bill your.

Speaker 3 (00:21):
Manskin of law Man, back for another rendition of The
law Man's Lounge Season six six episode. It doesn't matter anyway,
And I thought I was the only host on the
show right now, and we're still.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
Going through a phase of finding a co host.

Speaker 3 (00:36):
Sometimes, as you notice, I'll bring in a co host,
other times not. Sometimes I talk over my co host.
It doesn't matter. I still miss you, Jeff. We'll probably
get you back in once one of these days. But
I'm really excited to talk to my next guest. And
usually I spent lots of time talking to myself. But uh,
this guy was director of marketing for what I call

(00:58):
that was brilliant. But let's be honest. It was Avo,
which was a company they're still around, but them this
brilliant idea and essentially they enslaved me like they enslaved
many other lawyers.

Speaker 2 (01:10):
And this is how they did it, which is back
in the day, but it's really important.

Speaker 3 (01:13):
They needed content, and they knew that if they got content,
they would rise sort of rankings, like just blow up. Essentially,
there's many other reasons that they did that, but essentially
they got content. So where do they get the content from.
Did they hire their own content writers like we do
on our websites.

Speaker 2 (01:28):
No, they didn't do any of that. They have us
write their content to them.

Speaker 3 (01:33):
And how well consumers would ask a question and then
we would race to get that question answered because we
got more points, and then hopefully one out of every
five or ten of those clients would hire. And it
was brilliant. But I always resented AVO, even though I
liked Mark Britten, I like Conrad who's my ex guest,
But I resented them for it, and a lot of.

Speaker 2 (01:53):
My friends resented them for it. The stupid lawyers didn't understand.
They just were in it for the short term.

Speaker 3 (01:58):
But I knew I was putting myself out of business
because what we were doing was we're building so much
content that they became the number one legal directory, right my.

Speaker 4 (02:06):
Next guest on yeah you are you are exactly right?

Speaker 2 (02:10):
Yeah, and we just I just resented it. So then
I was getting cases and they did me a favor.

Speaker 3 (02:15):
They used to give me a top listing, and I
was okay with that because I was answering questions getting
some cases. But as I noticed, over time is less
and less. Then all of a sudden, they did another
brilliant move, which was good for having bad for me.

Speaker 2 (02:28):
They split the top ranking.

Speaker 4 (02:30):
Syst Huh, I remember this.

Speaker 2 (02:32):
That was my fault.

Speaker 3 (02:33):
Yeah, I hate you. That's why I brought you on.
Twelve years later you've already had one drink and you
probably will. Yeah, this arsenic, But anyway, then then it
was over for me. I was done, but I was
I always thought that my next guest, comrade, you as
well come on the show now.

Speaker 2 (02:50):
Since I don't have a co host to mess with, we.

Speaker 5 (02:52):
Can mess with each other. Yeah, you know, we call
that the jiggle. What we found is when we were
doing the analysis, it was static, right, so like you
had the rankings and whoever number one, they were there
for a good while and it wouldn't change, and they
were making bank. I mean it was they were absolutely
building their law firm. And then number two was getting

(03:13):
a little bit, number three was getting something, and then
you know it was just like the search results and
so and if you go way back into search results,
it used to be static as well, really really far
back ten twelve, well even one that fifteen years ago
it was static, and it was called the Google Dance,
one that the results would reshuffle. So we started, We
came up with this idea and when I say we,

(03:35):
I apologize it was me. I was like, we need
to distribute this across more lawyers, and so we called
it the jiggle and we started rotating people around.

Speaker 3 (03:44):
Yeah, the jiggle, and I end up losing like a
ton of business after that, so they can jiggle the.

Speaker 2 (03:50):
Fuck out of here. But anyway, that's when I stopped my.

Speaker 3 (03:52):
Relationship AVO, and I would then mock the salespeople that.

Speaker 2 (03:57):
Would call me for years later. Yeah that meant but
I stopped.

Speaker 4 (04:01):
They're probably still calling you, right.

Speaker 2 (04:02):
No, I don't answer their calls anymore. I don't. I
got out of that.

Speaker 3 (04:05):
I have sea sweet people, and I told them please
don't call them and waste their time, because we don't
want to waste their time. But they do call. But
it was a great, great product, and really it answered
a lot of consumer questions. So but I had seen
you talk at SEBAL conferences and that's what I thought.

Speaker 2 (04:23):
It was brilliant. I and I remember who's their legal counsel.

Speaker 4 (04:28):
You guys all got rich on Josh King. Josh King,
great guy. Yeah, it was Arizona now, Josh King.

Speaker 3 (04:33):
You know, of course if I retired in Scottsdale Golf
something like that.

Speaker 2 (04:37):
Yeah. Yeah. And then where's Mark Burton?

Speaker 4 (04:39):
Mark? Mark is Mark's kind of on quiet. He's on
the board of Cleo.

Speaker 5 (04:43):
He can be found uh helly skiing and cat skiing
in British Columbia every now and then.

Speaker 4 (04:49):
He's gone pretty quiet. Yeah, I mean, yeah, great guy.

Speaker 2 (04:52):
Yeah. I loved his takeaway tips.

Speaker 4 (04:54):
Yeah he was. He was a really really good guy.

Speaker 3 (04:56):
I went great for that for Mark, just for the
TI chips at Yeah, that was the best part.

Speaker 5 (05:02):
So it was I think it was it was like
one minute, right, Yeah, it was twenty things one minute each.

Speaker 4 (05:07):
Yeah, that was it was really good.

Speaker 2 (05:09):
Yeah. They had good conferences, so it was all good.

Speaker 3 (05:13):
But then you left and you've done some other things
like we'll talk what you do now, but tell us
what you what you did after you left, and a
little bit about your experience.

Speaker 5 (05:23):
So I'll get I'll give the real story. I went
and worked in the restaurant industry for a little bit.
It was like those of you who are over forty
will remember Urban Spoon. It was a little thing on
the phone that you could jiggle and it there we go.
Jiggle again. If you shook the phone, it would give
you there you go. We got one more jiggle. If
you shook the phone, it would it would it would

(05:43):
turn off a nearby local restaurant and you.

Speaker 4 (05:46):
The idea was to go and check it out. Anyway.

Speaker 5 (05:49):
I got there the day. The day I got there,
the guy who hired me resigned and I had a
new boss. And what they wanted to do was they
wanted to take on the reservation business of Open Table.
But the problem was that ninety eight percent of the
traffic didn't go to high end restaurants that require reservation.

Speaker 4 (06:10):
It went to the local junkie cheese or whatever it
might be. And so it was.

Speaker 5 (06:14):
It was a bad model. And in what I never
I learned a lot at AVO. I never learned any
emotional intelligence there, which didn't help me early on in
my career. But I think that's actually a better thing now.
I lasted like seven months and I got fired.

Speaker 3 (06:32):
How did that feel when you got fired, especially because
how long you've been with AVO, when you know I
was with AVO.

Speaker 4 (06:38):
For like six years.

Speaker 5 (06:40):
And then I gave a presentation at the end of
a quarter. It was on a Friday, and I went
over all of the marketing tactics that we had tried
to do to take over to compete with Open Table,
and they were all terrible. And I pointed this out
and I had a little stamp on the slide that
said failed.

Speaker 4 (07:00):
I got fired on Monday. But I'll tell you that
the thing so weird talking.

Speaker 2 (07:04):
About being SENTII self sabotage.

Speaker 5 (07:07):
No, because like I genuinely wanted them to succeed, and
if they kept going down the path they were going,
they were going to fail, which is what happened. You
don't do reservations on so so it wasn't self sabotage.

Speaker 4 (07:22):
It was very genuine. But what happened on over that weekend,
I got a call.

Speaker 5 (07:27):
From one of my coworkers who gave me a heads up,
so I was not blindsided. And that was one of
those personal things where you're just like, I hope I'm
as good a person as you are. So no, I
wasn't it wasn't. It wasn't the blind siding, and it
probably shouldn't have been a blindsiding even if I hadn't
been given a heads up. But then I was like, Oh,

(07:51):
what am.

Speaker 4 (07:52):
I gonna do?

Speaker 2 (07:53):
Right?

Speaker 5 (07:53):
What am I gonna do? So I had a couple
of contacts from the legal industry because I did a
lot of talking about how the internet worked and SEO
and I really enjoyed kind of sharing that stuff, and.

Speaker 4 (08:04):
So I got a couple clients.

Speaker 5 (08:07):
I went back and had a couple of clients as
kind of consultants.

Speaker 4 (08:10):
I never intended to create an agency. And that was
you know, thirteen years ago.

Speaker 3 (08:15):
Thirteen years ago, you were getting paid a decent amount
of money from AVO.

Speaker 2 (08:19):
You go to take this job. What was your financial
security at that point?

Speaker 4 (08:22):
Well, it got really bad because of the way equity works.

Speaker 5 (08:25):
I had to buy out and then pay taxes on
all this paper money from AVO. So I had a
massive tax bill and I had I mean, I have
an amazing spouse, but she was I had to convince
her that this was the right thing, and actually she
was not convinced.

Speaker 4 (08:43):
So, like we I would turn out really well.

Speaker 2 (08:47):
It worked out.

Speaker 4 (08:48):
It was a great, bet, I'm glad I made it, but.

Speaker 5 (08:50):
Like from a pure cash flow perspective, the amount of
money that I needed to come up with in order
to pay taxes on it for something that was really
just paper at the time, Yeah, that was a problem.

Speaker 4 (09:00):
It was a very real problem.

Speaker 3 (09:01):
So you got this problem going on, you are looking
around in the legal field. The question that I have
really is, do you remember, like how you the first
two clients you got in that space and when you
didn't want to have an agency, Yeah, how'd you go
with pricing for that? I'm curious about that because there's
different people that do different things, and I'm curious about

(09:23):
how you came up with your pricing for those two
people when you were just like, I want to consult.

Speaker 5 (09:28):
Yeah, I think it was a thumb in the wind.

Speaker 4 (09:32):
Two hundred and fifty dollars an hour sounds about right,
and that's what we're gonna do.

Speaker 5 (09:36):
And we never got into value pricing and we never
got into kind of retainer stuff. But it was really
just a thumb in the wind hourly rate. I was
very lucky in the interim. I was very lucky to
work for Vanessa Fox. Vanessa Fox, no one will know
who she is, but she creates.

Speaker 4 (09:53):
She was an ex Googler who created a company called
nine by Blue after she left Google.

Speaker 5 (09:59):
She had said up what is now called Google Search Console,
which was called Google Webmaster Chills beforehand. That was what
she built at Google. She's brilliant and she she let
me work on some of her clients, and she was
really the bridge that got me through when I really
didn't have two things. I had no money and I

(10:22):
had no idea how to do SEO work, like as
a consultant, and that's what she was doing. So she
let me work on some really really massive projects.

Speaker 4 (10:32):
And I owe her.

Speaker 5 (10:33):
I haven't seen her in years, but I owe her
the biggest debt of gratitude because she was running this
agency doing amazing.

Speaker 4 (10:39):
Work, very very technical work.

Speaker 5 (10:40):
She was a really deep technical mind and she taught
me everything she knew.

Speaker 3 (10:45):
You know, you already know the answer to this question
is why haven't you reached back out to her?

Speaker 2 (10:50):
And when are you going to reach back out?

Speaker 5 (10:52):
She's disappeared, So it's funny I find people disappear. She
had an amazing house overlooking the bluffs in Seattle, and
then she's disappeared. I sent her a birthday note, but
I never hear back from you. I don't have her
cell phone.

Speaker 4 (11:07):
I don't have her Maybe I do. That's a fair question.
I should I.

Speaker 2 (11:11):
Should go back and find It's a random question. That
producer was looking at me.

Speaker 4 (11:18):
Like what happened?

Speaker 5 (11:19):
Yeah, she was a really big name and in the sea,
I mean one. So you have Matt Cutts, Danny, Rand
and Vanessa, Like, those are the four Matt cut biggest
names in SEO. Interesting and she's I mean, Rand hasn't disappeared.
Matt Cutts has disappeared. He was working for the government

(11:41):
and uh now I don't know what he's doing.

Speaker 2 (11:42):
It's interesting.

Speaker 4 (11:43):
He might be looking for a job. I wonder if
he would like to work him Mockingbird for the line.

Speaker 3 (11:46):
You should get him to speak. I would love to
get made to speak. Bring them all back.

Speaker 2 (11:51):
You should find.

Speaker 5 (11:52):
Fox Fox, Matt Cutts and Danny and that would be amazing.

Speaker 4 (11:55):
Ring and Rand. Yeah, that's cool.

Speaker 3 (11:59):
So so when did when did it become an agency?

Speaker 4 (12:03):
It became so the real answer that I got.

Speaker 3 (12:06):
To enter enter my producers. Now, this is the generation
is taking selfies of ourselves. Yeah, our stories. Yeah, yeah,
so we're gonna take a martial break for about ten seconds.

Speaker 2 (12:19):
One dude, you have nothing to do with me. Yeah, anyway,
I was a podcast.

Speaker 3 (12:28):
Now I'm trying to listen and I got distracted by
your own selfies.

Speaker 4 (12:32):
Her name is Genesis fix It.

Speaker 2 (12:35):
In post so going by tom So.

Speaker 5 (12:39):
You said, when did it become an agency? I think,
and I think this probably happens with law firms too.
It became an agency when I made my first hire.
That was terrifying, Right, you are now responsible for someone
else's livelihood.

Speaker 2 (12:52):
Who was your first time?

Speaker 4 (12:53):
My first time was a guy named John Landman. I
got him from a directory business in Seattle, sales on
no no.

Speaker 5 (13:02):
I mean we didn't need sales like it was Conrad's network.

Speaker 4 (13:07):
We didn't really know what I was building websites right Like,
this was very very shoestring kind of thing. He was
moving for go out, A great guy.

Speaker 5 (13:17):
He decided that he didn't want to do SEO and
technology anymore, became a nutritionist and he's now a nutritionist
in somewhere.

Speaker 4 (13:24):
I didn't want to see.

Speaker 2 (13:25):
Denver, so what was he? What was he doing for you?

Speaker 5 (13:27):
Though we did se I mean so initially I was
I never thought of this as an agency, but it
was an SEO thing. So I was super lucky because
at AVO, that's how I met Matt Kuttz and Vanessa
and a whole bunch of people in the industry. This
goes way back, and they all helped me. It was
this very egalitarian we're going to help people win. And

(13:47):
most of these people had made their mark by selling
Viagra out of Canada on Google.

Speaker 2 (13:53):
All right, so you were selling by Agra.

Speaker 5 (13:55):
So all these people learn made a fortune selling pharmaceuticals
out of.

Speaker 4 (14:01):
And that was kind of the game. It was corner pills, right,
that was or poker.

Speaker 5 (14:04):
Porn pills and poker were like the three ways to
make a ton of money back in the day.

Speaker 4 (14:08):
And I got to learn legal from all these people.
It was very very cool. Joe knew anything.

Speaker 2 (14:14):
Yeah, So do you ever remember a company called Stompernet.

Speaker 4 (14:17):
I don't know Stompernet, oh.

Speaker 2 (14:18):
Man, so Stoppernet. I went out to one of the
conferences there.

Speaker 3 (14:22):
I don't know where they are now, and we went
to a conference and they the purpose of the conference, Yeah, it.

Speaker 2 (14:30):
Was three days I think or two three days was.

Speaker 3 (14:33):
To show you how to develop an SEO agency, and
we learned way before it became a dealble to hire
virtual assistance in Mexico to build link wheels and.

Speaker 2 (14:46):
That was the strategy. And basically they came in and go,
this is what I do.

Speaker 3 (14:50):
I have eighty guys in Mexico and we build link
link wheels from guys from India and then we just sell, sell,
sell to law firms and other companies. We inflayed our
price and that's how you do it. And that was
how I got introduced to SEO, which was like, oh,
so I was like, I was like, it was really
like it was a really eye opening So my first client,

(15:13):
I will not name him.

Speaker 5 (15:14):
He's still around, he is not to I will not
name him as a courtesy. When I started with him,
he had one, one and twelve websites and they all
linked to each other and he could manipulate the links
and he was winning it. He was killing it on
the East coast personal injury on the East coast. This

(15:35):
was the number one guy an SEO along.

Speaker 4 (15:38):
The East Coast for personal injury.

Speaker 5 (15:40):
Right, and then all this traffic got torched and that
and coincident, luckily for me, that happened at the same
time that I got the red flag from Urban Spoon
and he and.

Speaker 4 (15:52):
He was in a world of hurts.

Speaker 5 (15:53):
So I spent like two years turning one hundred and
twelve sites into four.

Speaker 2 (16:01):
That's interesting.

Speaker 4 (16:03):
It was crazy.

Speaker 2 (16:04):
Do you remember Bloomenthal?

Speaker 4 (16:05):
Yeah, so, yeah, he's fantastic man.

Speaker 3 (16:09):
Yeah, I talked to him once. I was gonna thought
about hiring as a consultant. But you mentioned the three
the three was it the three p's. Yeah, so I
had I had my website done I think it was
by Thompson back then or Fine Law. Yeah, that was
back when I first started. Then I jumped and hired
someone in house, and then we had our own in

(16:30):
house agency for ourselves, and then they left. I'm still
friends with them. They're it doesn't matter. I'm with a
Blue Shark now. But and they're all good guys, the guys.

Speaker 2 (16:38):
That used to work with us, and they have their
own company now.

Speaker 3 (16:40):
But what's funny is is that we couldn't get Bloomenthal, so.

Speaker 2 (16:44):
I hired a guy from the porn space. The point
is what we did was we took.

Speaker 3 (16:49):
Fine Law and we rented a room I remember using
using the points in New York.

Speaker 2 (16:54):
It was a really nice hotel and I got like
a huge suite.

Speaker 4 (16:57):
I'm not when.

Speaker 3 (17:00):
He's not everybody, and he came from that world and
he was brilliant.

Speaker 2 (17:05):
Yeah, Like I'm not going to say he was on adderall.

Speaker 3 (17:08):
Twenty four to seven h but he would literally work
from like six in the morning to like the next morning.

Speaker 4 (17:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (17:14):
For like, and he went over our site, like I
don't know how were on the TV. I remember he
did the back and it went over everything, dissected it
and I realized at that time, like, I think it's
time to leave my CEO company. But I remember so
he used to. He was the one that kind of
helped me find talent to hire in house. That's so,

(17:36):
I mean that when was this give me a year.

Speaker 2 (17:38):
I'm so old, man, I just don't remember.

Speaker 5 (17:41):
So back in the day, back in two thousand and
six and seven, it was.

Speaker 4 (17:46):
Me and I and I just got there because I
got introductions through the financers of AVO. So it started with.

Speaker 5 (17:54):
Vanessa Fox, but it was a whole bunch of people
who were really really good and Tim Stanley at Justia
he's still there. And outside of the two of us,
there was no one Chris Silversmith, was it fine for
a while.

Speaker 4 (18:06):
He's a really smart guy. But like, so there was
three of us that was it. No one, no one
knew anything.

Speaker 5 (18:11):
And so I was able to take off of them,
not because I'm specifically brilliant, but because I had access.

Speaker 4 (18:18):
To those really good people. And the early adopters they
killed it.

Speaker 2 (18:23):
Yeah, they killed it.

Speaker 4 (18:24):
Yeah, and it was easy to kill it, right.

Speaker 3 (18:26):
I remember, do you remember a seminar back in that
it almost promoted black hat stuff.

Speaker 4 (18:38):
I mean, there's plenty of plenty of centers.

Speaker 2 (18:40):
It was a big one. It was a big one though.
It was a big one for lawyers.

Speaker 4 (18:44):
For lawyers.

Speaker 3 (18:45):
Yeah, maybe it wasn't for lawyers, No it wasn't. But
basically just imagine like it was. Maybe it was being
called the black Hat Conference.

Speaker 2 (18:53):
I don't remember.

Speaker 3 (18:54):
But anyway, back to those early adopters, you know, it's fine.
The thing is I couldn't execute, so I thought about
opening s CEO company. I did bring it in house,
but I got like, I just remember those days.

Speaker 2 (19:06):
Those guys were like it was like it was like
the same guys in mass Torts who were early adopters
just made a shipload of money.

Speaker 4 (19:12):
Yep.

Speaker 3 (19:12):
And before it really like before Google really regulated. Maybe
like the crushing of the link wheels was the start
of them really starting to well watch their behavior and.

Speaker 5 (19:24):
Stuff and finally got slammed, so like like they started
coming down on people. But you know at this point
in time that that used to be a blue ocean
and now it's just it's it is a it's a fight.

Speaker 2 (19:39):
It's a brtal fight. There's gotta be other ye know.

Speaker 3 (19:41):
We'll talk about that in a second, about other channels,
but I will before. It's funny because I remember the
final low days.

Speaker 2 (19:47):
I was like, how do I stand out at Fine Law?

Speaker 3 (19:49):
When it was a blue ocean? And I would fly
out to Egan that's where they're off. Okay, you've been there.

Speaker 4 (19:54):
I've driven past Egan many times. And I'll tell you
this every night I wrote it. I wrote an article
called escape Fine Law. This is a decade.

Speaker 5 (20:02):
Yeah, so I wrote Escape Fine Law. I read them
and my site blew up. This is when you could
watch real time traffic. My site blew up in ian Minnesota.

Speaker 2 (20:10):
Was it more than ten? It was more than ten.

Speaker 4 (20:12):
It was probably around ten years ago. I was nervous
to publish that.

Speaker 2 (20:15):
That's so funny. That was a great article.

Speaker 4 (20:17):
But they know that if they come after me, Like it.

Speaker 2 (20:19):
Was all true. It's so funny.

Speaker 3 (20:21):
I used to take the team out for drinks and partying.

Speaker 4 (20:25):
With the team.

Speaker 2 (20:26):
I'd read.

Speaker 3 (20:27):
Yeah, and then I became friends with the CEOs and
I realized at the time the CEOs would rotate so quick.

Speaker 4 (20:32):
Oh really, yeah, it's.

Speaker 3 (20:33):
Like I'm not out there. I don't know, like so I
just left them years ago. But in the beginning I
had a good experience with them. But I think it
was easy, not just for them, but with the blue Ocean.

Speaker 2 (20:43):
Yeah, and that's funny.

Speaker 3 (20:46):
So tell us like mocking Bird, Like how did you
like what's the name? Everyone asked this question, but I
don't think I ever asked you it, But like, how'd
you go with mocking Bird?

Speaker 5 (20:56):
And started with Atticus adis Finch? I am a deep
leaning heart and that was like it just it was
so obvious that I should call it Aticust. And this
is when I had just intended on I'm getting a job,
do it like this was a just for tax purposes.
And there's a company in Florida. I think they're based

(21:16):
in Florida called Atticust Consulting or something along there, and
I knew, I knew it was funny. I knew about
them when I named it Atticus, and I didn't really care.
And then you know, twenty four months down the road,
I got a fucking letter from them and they were
completely in the right.

Speaker 4 (21:34):
And then so like.

Speaker 5 (21:36):
I like Mockingberg, I don't I love Atticus Ankus sounds
like someone who's gonna come in like clean.

Speaker 2 (21:41):
House, like Marcus Aurel. Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

Speaker 5 (21:44):
And now my name is Jeff right, So I don't
love Mockingberg. But that's and I will never ever change
it again.

Speaker 3 (21:50):
Well, if I had my co host here, Jeff probably
like Jeff, Jeff isn't here, Jeff sounds yeah, It's not
like Marcus market right, right, Bill's not like that either.

Speaker 2 (22:02):
Conrad can me.

Speaker 3 (22:04):
Yeah, and you got a cool name, and you got
like the name of like a Roman legioneer.

Speaker 5 (22:09):
Yeah but lesioneer, legioneer.

Speaker 2 (22:12):
Yeah, I didn't want to call you a venarial disease.
It's like legioneer.

Speaker 3 (22:16):
I think we're good, Okay, Conrad Sam like that is
a badass name.

Speaker 2 (22:21):
But that's interesting.

Speaker 3 (22:23):
And so Mockingbird, I really want to actually talk to
you about your personal interest.

Speaker 2 (22:29):
But we need.

Speaker 3 (22:30):
I don't want to digress, but yeah, let's digress for
a little bit. Sure, So, like, what do I know
like some of the stuff that you like to do
because you like to put your priorities about like having
fun and doing stuff and work.

Speaker 2 (22:40):
But tell us like the stuff that you like doing.

Speaker 5 (22:42):
So my, because you open the door, I'll walk through it.
My My winters are my vacation. And it's not because
I go off for a long period of time, but
I spend the winters probably two to three days a
weekend Friday, Saturday, Sunday.

Speaker 4 (22:59):
I'm up in the mountain. I volunteered to ski patroller.

Speaker 5 (23:02):
And when you're doing that, you can't think about work,
like it just pushes work.

Speaker 4 (23:08):
Outside of your brain. So I find it like we did.

Speaker 5 (23:11):
We did a boat trip last year, and I found
it like like work kept kind of.

Speaker 4 (23:16):
You're still in there.

Speaker 2 (23:16):
Where was the boat trip?

Speaker 4 (23:18):
Us are in islands?

Speaker 5 (23:19):
Fantastic sailboat trip, amazing, recommend it, But like like I.

Speaker 4 (23:24):
Couldn't, I couldn't disconnect. You're up in the mountains right
and I.

Speaker 5 (23:28):
Patrol it a pretty brutal place. We've got avalanches to
take care of, and you're taking care of people. Where
is this It's just outside of Seattle. It's an hour
ten outside of Seattle, and it's closer to me even
we have a place up there. But that's I love
it and I found it. I didn't know any about medicine.

(23:48):
But like, so I had to go back to school, right,
you take this intensive training class, and so I have
to learn how to learn all over again.

Speaker 3 (23:55):
I think the difference is is that you aren't you
when you went skiing, when you went sailing, you weren't selling,
were you.

Speaker 5 (24:01):
I wasn't sound, But it was one of those things
where like you like I like to be the hands
on guy right.

Speaker 2 (24:06):
When I know was sailing.

Speaker 3 (24:07):
Yeah, I was thinking about work because I wasn't sailing right,
So like if your hands on, like I know, skiing
is I used to ski a lot, and I was
never a really good skater, but I would go down diamonds.

Speaker 2 (24:17):
I couldn't do the shoots. I tried once. But like
you you make a wrong move, you're a cel your knee.

Speaker 4 (24:23):
You're dumb. So I have to be in the moment.

Speaker 2 (24:25):
You have to in the moment. That is interesting.

Speaker 5 (24:27):
So that's my that's like my vacation it's it's it's
it's just it's it's like we're in the middle of a.

Speaker 4 (24:31):
Period of my year where I'm at a lot, a
lot better place just because I really check.

Speaker 2 (24:38):
Out and what else do you kind of like doing? Well?

Speaker 5 (24:40):
Then I have kids, so I've work ski and kids.
I've got three kids.

Speaker 4 (24:44):
How old are them?

Speaker 5 (24:45):
I've got three teenagers, So fourteen through nineteen, you're married.

Speaker 2 (24:49):
Married. So mocking Burton now, tell us about mocking Vernon now.

Speaker 4 (24:53):
So I mean it was again, it was unintentional.

Speaker 5 (24:56):
But if you look, if you look at the way
the search engine result.

Speaker 4 (25:03):
Page has evolved, that we followed that.

Speaker 5 (25:06):
So I thought we were never going to be an
agency and we'd beaim an agency. And then I thought
we were only gonna do SEO. But then I found
all these websites were charrible. So we add on website
development because websites were so good technology and the website
was so fundamental to being successful in SEO. And then
Google Ads started picking up right and taking over some
of the real estate. So then we became a Google

(25:28):
Premiere partner for a while. We got kicked out from
that because we stopped accepting all of their recommendations because
it wasn't good for our clients. So we got kicked
out of the Google Premiere partnership, which I'm frankly proud of.
So we started doing that and then as what's really
happened now is this kind of community engagement involvement which

(25:53):
ties back to localized link building building.

Speaker 4 (25:56):
What I think about is brand affinity, not just brand awareness.
We're like ble like you.

Speaker 5 (26:01):
They don't just know who you are, but they actually
like you. They don't even know what type of way
you do. But like I like Bill, right, it's whatever
problem I have, That's who I'm going to go to
because I hate lawyers in general. That builds a good
guy because he supports that stuff is really fascinating to me.
And so that's like the next phase.

Speaker 3 (26:16):
And so it's funny how that's almost come full circle
because that's it was that with the Internet, and you
know a lot of people are making investments in I
introduce you to a Carmelion to business Veld, yeah, you know,
and they work with marketing because they can they if
obviously we get the local links is very very important.

(26:37):
Local was important for a long time ago, but now
it's not just about link building, it's also about getting
stuff outside of it. Meaning you can do an event
back in the day and they were like, let's get
the link, but now you.

Speaker 2 (26:49):
Got to you gotta really work the event. You got
to work the event, get to know other people and
continue this.

Speaker 3 (26:56):
I like what you call it like is a brand affinity.

Speaker 4 (27:00):
To me, it's brand affinity.

Speaker 1 (27:01):
Now.

Speaker 5 (27:01):
I think people are so focused on brand impressions, like
in my world.

Speaker 4 (27:05):
How many impressions did you buy?

Speaker 5 (27:07):
How many people heard the radio ad or drove by
the billboard?

Speaker 4 (27:11):
But that doesn't mean they like you.

Speaker 3 (27:13):
No, it doesn't mean you know, it's just like the
same as social media metrics.

Speaker 2 (27:17):
There's a guy here who he's a local coach, and
you know.

Speaker 3 (27:26):
He coaches everyone on Instagram and social media and a
lot of other stuff like mainly much more implementation, a
lot of data stuff. That's his real sweet spot. If
you look at his social media, you know it's five
or eight lights a day. But like all five or
eight of those guys are people probably better invested in

(27:46):
his company and don't care that he's not doing so
well on Instagram because even though he coaches it, he's
not really getting his business off a Norsey. He's just
doing it because it's a presence and it makes his
clients out. But what I'm saying is is that he's
not into the metrics like I am.

Speaker 2 (28:04):
About like likes and engagement, but his might be actually
people that actually buy his product.

Speaker 5 (28:12):
I'm not coaching yet, and so that becomes one of
the things where volume can be very misleading. Like I
grew number of followers back like and they're all the
needs back and stand and you pay ten dollars.

Speaker 4 (28:25):
For that, right who cares?

Speaker 3 (28:26):
Right or even at their local and they're entertained. It's
what you're putting out there. The other thing, too, is
LinkedIn's another place.

Speaker 2 (28:33):
You know. It's funny.

Speaker 3 (28:35):
There are a lot of successful people on LinkedIn and
a lot of followers, a lot of engagement. They do
fairly well. But I know plenty of them that are
on LinkedIn and don't put up a post. They don't
have tremendous followers, and they are uberwealthy, and it's just
a place, a place for them to give you their
resume what the reality is, and you know they don't.

Speaker 2 (28:55):
Care, and they don't even care what the person who
is trying to.

Speaker 3 (28:59):
Buy from them or engage in a hedge fund or
whatever it is because they know, right thing's important. But
it's almost important for the hunters, and these guys have
already been there and they're not hunting in the.

Speaker 2 (29:09):
Same way anymore.

Speaker 4 (29:10):
It's a vetting process.

Speaker 5 (29:11):
It's name search right rights, It's where people go to
check you out, and that's now evolving intoos right, So,
like I want to learn about you, I can have
a I write me a description about you, and I
can learn about you.

Speaker 4 (29:25):
So like that's happening.

Speaker 5 (29:27):
So like now this it's like this next phase of
how do we influence that You're right.

Speaker 3 (29:32):
I didn't have a bio on you because I'm not
sure you gave it me, so I had AI do on.

Speaker 2 (29:37):
And I was surprised to know that.

Speaker 3 (29:39):
You owned a a sexual manufacturing company that manufactures sex
toys for giraffes in Australia chot shot x y d
d d d d l m n X product.

Speaker 2 (29:54):
Is that true? It is?

Speaker 5 (29:56):
It is sadly true. You know, I've got a corner
on the draft sex market.

Speaker 2 (30:01):
But I was surprised. But you know what's funny is
that you know a lot.

Speaker 3 (30:04):
Of people are just lawyers, are having a hard time
with AI. There are early adopters taking it, but I
love it. Like my lawyer here, my magicing in terms
of great travealers, and they're like, they sent me a
text going look for having this lawyer used AI and
he and then submitted a brief to a federal judge.

Speaker 2 (30:21):
Judges are like, that's no playing around.

Speaker 3 (30:24):
He's not in trouble right because the sites were big suns, right.

Speaker 2 (30:28):
But I said to her, I go, well, what did
he use? Well, chat CHIVT. I go, well, that's the problem.

Speaker 3 (30:32):
He didn't use a closed loop system of people that
developed like Lexus or Weslo or other case text or
other products out there that maybe even better have a
closed loop.

Speaker 2 (30:41):
So they're just like, oh, I see that bad example.
I don't want anyone to do with AI.

Speaker 5 (30:46):
So and I mean the most common example is that
extra thinkers, right, or the or the or the lawyer
who showed up with the cat head on.

Speaker 2 (30:53):
Oh yeah, I love the fantastic.

Speaker 5 (30:55):
I'm not a cat, but I think they're really fascinating.
Part of this is like people are starting to use that.
We know it's we know it's fallible, but they're starting
to use it. Right, and and so you know, even
things I would think about what in your name?

Speaker 4 (31:13):
What does what? What does a I think about you
as your.

Speaker 5 (31:16):
Name like and and and you about to old that
CEO problems right, So like if your name is Tom
Brady and you happen to be an attorney instead of
a quarterback, you have a problem.

Speaker 4 (31:25):
Right what what shows up?

Speaker 2 (31:28):
Right? Is it?

Speaker 5 (31:28):
Is it accurate? Is it about you individually? Those saying,
you know, I have a very unusual name. So like
when people look for me, it's me you you actually
have a confused name because there's someone else with the
exact same name.

Speaker 2 (31:40):
Surgeon in California.

Speaker 3 (31:42):
That's right, But I so I need to start getting
onto what is it called Gemini?

Speaker 2 (31:47):
Yeah? And uh, what's the other one? The well that one,
but no, there's another one.

Speaker 3 (31:58):
When I when I talked to Chat, because I've put
my name in there many times, I have a love
affair with Chat. So when my wife doesn't talk to me,
I'll go and talk to Chat all day long.

Speaker 2 (32:08):
And I'm filled with confidence of Chat. And I actually
believe that.

Speaker 3 (32:11):
That's why when you put in William Ymanski, lawyer, Chat
says I'm one of the most dominant lawyers of some
of this stuff because I talk nicely to Chat. I
actually thank Chad. I could flatitude to Chat. I just
I actually have a love affair with Chat and actually
my wife ever leaves me.

Speaker 4 (32:27):
You've got Chat.

Speaker 2 (32:28):
I have Chat.

Speaker 5 (32:28):
Well, So I mean this is where like it sounds crazy,
but do you remember the movie Her?

Speaker 4 (32:32):
Oh yeah, we're there, we are there. Yeah, that's crazy.

Speaker 2 (32:38):
I have theories.

Speaker 3 (32:39):
Yeah, Like I don't want to get into political discussion,
but I will share this with you.

Speaker 2 (32:43):
I like the matrix. We're not there yet, but we
will be with Laural Link coming and think about this. Neo.

Speaker 3 (32:52):
I used to actually relate to Donald Trump as being
the and this is not pro or anti Donald Trump,
but definitely Neo was the protagonist and matrix who ripped
everything apart so that we could see what was going on.
So I made the argument that Trump a couple of
years ago was the Maybe it wasn't as good as Neo,

(33:14):
so I called him the anti protagonist, which I don't
remember it was, but he did the same thing Neo did.
He ripped away to a point where we started questioning
whether our courts are sacred, what is the legislature's sacred
and that could be dangerous, by the way, but he
did rip away the band aids. Here's what's behind everything.
And so what I'm saying going back about Trump, going

(33:36):
back to the matrix and that her, is that we're
there and that's all we are.

Speaker 5 (33:41):
We are So the I did this talk with Tim
Stanley the other day. This is not used commercially, but
the technology is there where I can get a image
of your face and I can know everything about you,
and I can have Ai.

Speaker 2 (33:58):
Wright me.

Speaker 5 (34:00):
How to how to flatter Bill, how to try and
pick up Bill at a bar, how to try and
do a business deal with They'll based on your background,
on what you have done it and it just requires
your face.

Speaker 4 (34:10):
That is he that is here.

Speaker 2 (34:12):
Now.

Speaker 4 (34:12):
It is not widespread from a consumer perspective, but like absolutely.

Speaker 5 (34:15):
Chinese government's using it like so and then I'm like,
well and it just gets weird.

Speaker 2 (34:21):
You have.

Speaker 5 (34:22):
You know, you know there's a there's a genderine balance
in China, right, and you have a bunch of men
who like have a relationship with a computer. Right, we're here.
It's not like fancyful crazy and Her.

Speaker 3 (34:36):
Is not an old movie, no, And it goes even
beyond that without getting.

Speaker 2 (34:40):
Into all that.

Speaker 3 (34:40):
Like I don't own this, but remember Howard Stern was
playing around with that thing on his head. I don't okay,
well it was put it on his head, okay, and
he said, you never have to leave your house again,
and you don't.

Speaker 2 (34:52):
Even need a date anyone. That's here.

Speaker 4 (34:56):
It's here.

Speaker 3 (34:56):
I don't know if people talk about it, but it's
like they're talking about I wrote, which you're like, I
don't even.

Speaker 2 (35:01):
Need to leave my room or my house.

Speaker 3 (35:02):
Well, so that's scary because you can't actually literally go
beyond and have a relationship, not just a relationship where
you're talking in your mind, the synapses, the nerves and everything.

Speaker 2 (35:13):
It's like, why leave your house?

Speaker 4 (35:15):
We are so, we are here, so in so what
do we do about it? Well, this is sick. I've
been thinking about this. So we started this. I mean
talking about coming full circle back to porn. I hate
to do that.

Speaker 5 (35:27):
Like right now, there are porn starts using their image,
creating virtual avatars that are basically indistinguishable from real life,
and you can program what you want from them. Okay,
so that exists. That is a thing that is happening.
How does that apply law. Well, we spent a ton
of time with our clients building video content, and.

Speaker 4 (35:48):
I've been working really hard on this.

Speaker 5 (35:49):
So like I want you to talk about all of
your favorite restaurants in Chicago or all the important holidays
that are coming up. So I want a sixty second
clip of you talking about why Presidents Day is important
or what you're supporting in Orlando or whatever it might be.
That took a long time, It was a lot of work,

(36:10):
it was efforts we had to do post production. I
can create that now with two hours of video content
from you virtually. Yeah, I can do that now. Crazy crazy.
So like again I started with learning how to do
SEO from people or who are doing porn, tilt and poker,
and now we're going to think about how do we

(36:30):
run AI from people who done the same thing.

Speaker 4 (36:33):
Like that's exactly where it is.

Speaker 3 (36:34):
And what's interesting is you know already on social media
and data that's been mined, that has been mined so much.

Speaker 2 (36:40):
By Zuckerberg and you know all the social platforms that
can you know, I know guys that they know what
the behavior is based on.

Speaker 3 (36:48):
Your search patterns, not because you just search hoorn, poker,
or pharmaceuticals, right, But they can tell by your search patterns,
so you can scale that exponentially using AI. That's pretty
frightening well, because like you just said, it's like it's
it's zeroed in, honed in on you.

Speaker 4 (37:02):
It's totally honed in.

Speaker 5 (37:03):
And so the real tactical thing for law firms on this,
and I think most law firms miss this is if.

Speaker 4 (37:09):
You assuming you have enough data on this.

Speaker 5 (37:13):
So a lot of the times Google analytics, the Google
conversion is typically a phone call form fill text chat.
It's not the real conversion happens over the phone, right,
It's an offline conversion, and so Google Analytics is not
built to grab that data. But you can feed that
real conversion data, that offline conversion data back into Google

(37:33):
and they can start looking for those patterns. And that's
where your pay per click can start improving by eight
twelve percent just by feeding that data back in.

Speaker 3 (37:41):
Which is crazy because pay per click was dying, really
dying on the line, and only very few people know
how to do it, and then we're giving it. If
that happens, pay per click will do as I would
call legitimate resurgence, because like right now, a lot of
people doing pay per click there are ay suck but
they do it almost a branding tool, which is ridiculous,
not a conversion.

Speaker 5 (38:01):
Tool like it's so it's volume because I don't know
what the number is, but a good portion of business
goes through there. But if you're doing paper click, you
need to be able to a handle the volume and
be a volume minded sure company.

Speaker 4 (38:15):
Sure, and some some firms aren't.

Speaker 2 (38:17):
Right.

Speaker 4 (38:18):
But the other thing you talk about the brand inside
of this.

Speaker 3 (38:20):
But you still have to make a three to four
to one URI, which is not ideal compared to SEO.

Speaker 2 (38:24):
Still that's what high volume is.

Speaker 3 (38:26):
But but there's people doing it out there for two
to one r OI just to have high volume.

Speaker 2 (38:31):
So that feeds into more clients, right, you know.

Speaker 4 (38:34):
Which is which is low ROI right? But volume?

Speaker 3 (38:37):
But but I think that if AI right, I think
if they can do a better targeting so and retargeting also.

Speaker 5 (38:44):
By the way, well so funny you mentioned this. So
on the pay per click side of things, my perspective
is you need to be an absolute machine and you
need to have all of the dials tuned perfectly, and
one of those doals that needs to be tuned perfectly.
Is those offline conversions coming back in? Otherwise you're going
to be stuck at a very very high cost per client.

Speaker 4 (39:06):
What did you just say that I was retarding retargeting?

Speaker 5 (39:10):
So if you have the volume, every single firm should
be doing retargeting. It is, it is, and retargeting basically mean,
well you guys think.

Speaker 2 (39:17):
What retargeting is.

Speaker 5 (39:17):
If you don't, you should not be listening to the pod.
Retarding basically says if I look at the you know,
the Scotch Glass on on Scotch Glass dot com, I
will get ads for that across social media, et cetera.
The deal here is it's based off of your website traffic,
which is much smaller than Orlando as a whole. And
so while the cost per impression is very very high,

(39:41):
your volume is very very low, and the potential for
that to actually trying to a client is amazingly high.
It's it's the best money you're advertising can spend to
bring people back who didn't decide to check out.

Speaker 3 (39:52):
Yeah, it's true, and I feel like a lot of
people don't notice that and see it. Also, you know,
well I I want to ask some open ending questions,
so you know, that CEO is really tough.

Speaker 2 (40:03):
Obviously, it's not the Blue Ocean.

Speaker 3 (40:05):
It is you're talking about local and local links and
brand affinity. Have you have you have your clients or
you have talked about what other distribution channels you know? Uh,
I'm not talking about radio and bill Board and TV, although,
believe it or not, they just.

Speaker 5 (40:21):
Don't seem to die, right Gary Sarner, Gary seeing Garrett
Smart Radio.

Speaker 2 (40:27):
Yeah, he asked you things are going to Miami, telling
my I can't. He texted me to go.

Speaker 3 (40:30):
I see you in Miami, and I'm not going. But
I didn't tell him that, so you could tell. All right,
But what other channels are out there that you think
are effective?

Speaker 4 (40:40):
So I so the word effective is nuanced.

Speaker 5 (40:45):
There's cost effectiveness right, Increasingly the cost effectiveness is going away.

Speaker 4 (40:49):
So I'm gonna like there, you need to put a
lot of money into growing your firm at this point
in time, you just you just have to. It is
so competitive. I also believe in this portfolio there.

Speaker 5 (41:00):
You don't want to be a company that's grown an
SEO like a lot of the worst example recently was LSAs.

Speaker 4 (41:05):
People jumped on LSA's in the same way that you
jumped on Ali. I was an early adopter.

Speaker 5 (41:09):
The early adopters of LSAs grew their firms really quickly,
and then Google pulled the rug out of there, out
from underneath them, and they're now the sitting with a bunch.

Speaker 4 (41:15):
Of headcount that they can't feed.

Speaker 2 (41:17):
That's true. That totally happened.

Speaker 4 (41:18):
That was really really problematic.

Speaker 2 (41:20):
I got in.

Speaker 3 (41:21):
I got in there like we were doing a good
job with LSA criminal but we hired so many different
people that.

Speaker 2 (41:27):
Was supposedly knew what they were doing, and then we
did in the.

Speaker 3 (41:29):
House and we were draining bleeding money on the LSA's
for PI. Yeah, Like I was all in, and then
people are telling you we got to do it for
a year. I'm like, how many months can I keep losing.

Speaker 2 (41:42):
Forty fifty thousand dollars a month and get like one case?

Speaker 3 (41:45):
No. I went three months and I pulled it. Maybe
if I was younger, I would have done it all
the year. And I lost five hundred thousand dollars.

Speaker 2 (41:51):
Like I'm not doing that.

Speaker 3 (41:52):
Actually more than that, right, fifty times twelve six hundred
grund And I pulled it. But I remember saying to myself, like, man,
thank God, that's why our portfolio is like spread SEO
digital form of client form a client form a client
community events, events, which is always the one that takes
the longest to bear fruit. Usually been a bears fruit,

(42:13):
it's good. And then relationships, which is the hardest because
you're always hustling.

Speaker 5 (42:17):
So you have to always be hustling. I think the
more channels you have, their driving business to you. So
let's all that's how your business is.

Speaker 4 (42:24):
Period.

Speaker 5 (42:25):
And I mean we saw over the weekend. I don't
know if you saw this too, but like review started
to disappear. Yeah, everyone's we got hit.

Speaker 2 (42:32):
We got hit. Of the one hundred reviews lost, we
got sixty backs.

Speaker 4 (42:35):
So what does that mean? Like how do we handle it?

Speaker 5 (42:37):
Like if you were depending on what so and Google
Fox up all the time. So so I really believe
in having a wide spread. I also think there is
value in having multiple channels that reinforce each other. The
data shows that if you have a pay per click
ad and organic listing and a local listening, you you

(43:00):
will do better on each of those than if you
just have one of them.

Speaker 2 (43:04):
It makes sense, like you do you got to do TV,
billboard and radio.

Speaker 5 (43:08):
And they're they're reinforcing it and so and I think
this is sad. Go back to my early days of AVO.
AVO built some law firms because they were early adopters.
They were really smart. They tried to new technology and
they were killing it, and we sent tons of business
to some law firms.

Speaker 4 (43:24):
We built some law firms. Look at today, it's completely different.

Speaker 5 (43:28):
But what are the things that you can do that
our early adopter opportunities, the people who jumped in on
the lsays really really early absolutely worked the local engagement. Honestly,
if I'm a law firm right now and I'm an
aggressive growth mind, and I and I have a long
term horizon, a ten year horizon, I'm getting super local

(43:51):
and I'm getting really involved in my community.

Speaker 4 (43:54):
And not just like we.

Speaker 5 (43:55):
Sponsored the Little League team where this, but like we
created content about why parents shouldn't like harass the umpire
at Little League games, and.

Speaker 4 (44:04):
We're using that to distribute out to We're using that over.

Speaker 5 (44:07):
Social media to target people who are parents who have
Little League's kids and they will care about this.

Speaker 2 (44:13):
That's interesting.

Speaker 3 (44:13):
You're talking about on social media, not your website though
it's all of these elements. Well, I'm asking though, like,
like would you and this is a question for us,
Like we do some local stuff, but would you spend
a lot of energy and content. So Orlando's a big
metro area and I live in Avalon Park and we
have a lot of layers that live in winn of Gordon.

(44:34):
I said, you know what's funny is that I never
totally mind Avalon Park the way I used to because
I was a stop So Avlon Park is an upper
middle class neighborhood or middle class.

Speaker 2 (44:42):
Neighborhood, and I spent twenty years trying to.

Speaker 3 (44:45):
Get out of there, right even though we made a
lot of friends for one reason, not because I's bougie,
but bougie about food.

Speaker 2 (44:53):
So I just resented them.

Speaker 3 (44:54):
Meanwhile, the owner loved me, gave my son a scholarship
as president of Rodary Club. And it's just now that
my kids have left, we decided to stay, and I
fell in love with the neighborhood again.

Speaker 2 (45:04):
And so we're now sponsoring everything. But we're doing so
much more, which what's your point is, We're getting engaged.

Speaker 3 (45:11):
We're doing a lot of stuff, but now doing some
social media pop up podcasts with businesses. The thing that
I would ask though, is does it make sense instead
of just saying d U I restident in Orlando, a
car accident and Avalon Park. You know, we're involved in
the social channels there. We have people that are influenced there,
and there's an accident at the point to us. But

(45:31):
do you believe that you should do web content just
based upon nothing related to law or related to and say, listen,
you know the roundabout Avalon Park is a disaster of
people have been an accident.

Speaker 2 (45:44):
That's an easy one. But really support the schools and well.

Speaker 4 (45:47):
Let's let's say the best Italian restaurant.

Speaker 2 (45:50):
That's the Italian restaurant.

Speaker 4 (45:51):
Yea website. There's nothing the practice of law.

Speaker 2 (45:54):
Right, that's good, you made it.

Speaker 5 (45:56):
Let me give you, let me give you a new
There are nuances to this, and there are ways to
do this the right way, and there are ways to
completely fuck it up. Client in not a client law
firm in New York did not turn into a client.
They had done this approach and they were getting a
ton of traffic for Brooklyn Style pizza okay because they

(46:18):
someone had written a post about Brooklyn Style pizza.

Speaker 4 (46:22):
No one looking for Brooklyn South Pizza is going to hire.

Speaker 5 (46:24):
This PI firm, right, They're just not It's completely completely
valueless traffic.

Speaker 4 (46:31):
It's completely unhelpful.

Speaker 2 (46:33):
What if you retarget them though with PI ads?

Speaker 5 (46:36):
Okay, so if you're looking for Brooklyn South Pizza, you
probably aren't even necessarily in near in this addressable market.
You're ninety percent of the employments out of my ass.
But like ninety percent of the traffic to the site
wasn't in.

Speaker 4 (46:47):
Brooklyn or wherever they were.

Speaker 5 (46:49):
They were in Australia researching what the hell is Brooklyn
South Pizza? Right, So like most of this traffic is garbage,
And we have this perspective like if you get a
bunch of traffic, it's super valuable. That is a complete
lie that we like to tell you guys because you
guys like getting content, you like seeing up into the right.

Speaker 4 (47:06):
But if they're not going to.

Speaker 2 (47:07):
Ever buy from you, who cares your instrument? Does it matter?
Doesn't matter?

Speaker 4 (47:14):
But I also believe in legal there's a way to
do this.

Speaker 5 (47:19):
I call this anchor content. If you can drive links
to your thing about Brooklyn Pizza or the Italian restaurant
right where you have a you do a whole bunch
of reviews of restaurants in Avalon Park and people start
linking to that. Now you're getting localized links. That's so
hard to get, and if you win those, you start

(47:40):
winning the SEO game. It's really hard. So the way
I like to think about this, and there are some
some firms who have done this really well, is what
content can I create that lives only on my site? Right,
it only lives on my site that people locally are
going to link to?

Speaker 4 (47:58):
How do you play that game? So let me give
you an example. There was I just recorded on this.

Speaker 2 (48:04):
I had a great question before it could go ahead.

Speaker 5 (48:06):
Okay, remember the college scholarships we still have that they
became useless because what you.

Speaker 4 (48:12):
Do is you'd create a thousand all the scholarships.

Speaker 5 (48:14):
You'd put it on a page with ten thousand other
websites that had fifty five hundred different college scholarships, all
pointing links. Google actually penalized it a manual penalty back
in twenty twenty one for a firm that had done
this right. So they clearly devaluating that devaluing that. What
if you did the Bill Yumanski college.

Speaker 2 (48:35):
Scholarship I have called second Chance scholarship?

Speaker 4 (48:37):
Okay, so that should live on your website.

Speaker 2 (48:40):
We haven't lived on the website.

Speaker 4 (48:42):
That should have links from all the local high schools.
We don't have that, because people should be You should
put in the application. The application is as.

Speaker 5 (48:50):
On our website, right, or you do something like Mary
who won the won the thing we're gonna get and
we're exploiting children.

Speaker 4 (48:58):
Now, So maybe this is a bad example, but you
can at.

Speaker 5 (49:00):
My point in general, Mary won the scholarship, and we're
going to introduce you to Mary about what she's doing,
and just a yippi skippy happy story about Mary that
other people are.

Speaker 4 (49:10):
Going to link to, and that only lives on your site.
I would do this all day long. Yeah, all day long.

Speaker 5 (49:15):
Another really simple way to cut this and I started,
sorry it's so tactical, but like, okay, these are all
the charities that we support. This is the Yumansky you know,
local local charities that were supporting.

Speaker 4 (49:28):
That lives on my site.

Speaker 5 (49:30):
And I only choose And this is where it becomes
a ventraconian. I only work with charities. They're going to
link back to my charity page, right, and those types
of things getting deeply involved generating content really being there
and having the SEO mindset that I want this to
actually reinforce what I'm doing from an organic search perspective,

(49:53):
from a local search perspective, all day long.

Speaker 3 (49:56):
So it's we have our foundation linked in our site,
the application on the site. I don't think we've done
a good enough job having other people linked to the site.
And that's something that I'll bring up. Although I think
it was a project, it's not that they didn't think
about it. I don't know whether we execute it or not.
I do think what's and I lost it. I want
to tell you something I did ten years ago and

(50:19):
I think I need to bring it back, and it
never got executed. I created.

Speaker 2 (50:24):
This is my fault.

Speaker 3 (50:26):
We just never spent the time with the money to
execute my in house team. I have a page in
the site that talks about second chances. It's different than
the foundation, and it's a tree with a big I
don't even know if it still exists. I know it's
on there somewhere with a big branch, a big, big trunk.
So what's cool about it is our resource page almost

(50:47):
and it will have branches and it'll say psychologists, and
so then we would have the psychologist that we wanted
to use link back to our site, so it's hyper local.
And then we had I think we still have it,
like some doctors treating our patients, we'd have them link
to our site.

Speaker 2 (51:04):
For some reason, I stopped doing that. I don't know why.

Speaker 3 (51:07):
Which I did this ten years ago, because the idea was,
if you want a resource, check out our page.

Speaker 2 (51:12):
It was a tree. If you want a doctor's a dentist,
if you want a therapist, whatever was right there for you.
And they linked back to us. So there's a link exchange.
But it was like inbound links, local and links right,
they were all day long. If I stopped doing it,
I don't remember what if.

Speaker 5 (51:28):
I believe if you win the local inbound links game,
you win local search and you win organic search with
local intent, which is.

Speaker 4 (51:34):
Almost all of of of.

Speaker 5 (51:37):
Transactional legal terms. There was a I'm blanking on the city.
I believe this was in Minnesota, but I'm not getting
it right. Who was the man who was killed by
the police kneeling on his chest for Floyd?

Speaker 4 (51:51):
Where was that?

Speaker 2 (51:52):
It was in Minnesota?

Speaker 4 (51:53):
It was in Minnesota, right, Okay? I worked with them.

Speaker 5 (51:59):
I didn't even do work with her, but like she
and I spent a bunch of time talking about SEO.
And after that happened, she built a directory of black
owned businesses in Minneapolis and she put that on her site.
And her whole perspective is, I'm going to support this community,
right And in many cases that was their only online presence,

(52:20):
right And in doing so.

Speaker 2 (52:23):
One way linked out or was it due links in?

Speaker 4 (52:26):
It was so do what what she was really doing
was creating a bunch of content.

Speaker 5 (52:31):
It was very adjacent to her, but from a positioning perspective,
it was really important to her.

Speaker 4 (52:36):
She was supporting the black community in the Innneapolis after
the George Floyd death George Flood.

Speaker 5 (52:42):
Right, that's right, yes, And and it took off right
because people were so interested in it, and that generates
inbound links and it generates affinity among the right audiences
she was trying to reach.

Speaker 4 (52:54):
It was brilliant.

Speaker 5 (52:55):
I want to see more of that among the legal community.
Like it doesn't matter what you care about, right, Like
I don't care if you care about puppies, pick a ball,
pick a ball, whatever, we've got a client.

Speaker 2 (53:04):
I don't care about pickle. I don't just know someone
that created picking that blog is blowing up.

Speaker 5 (53:08):
But like, if your pickleball blog can blow up and
you're really into pickleball for whatever reason, if you're a
middle aged person who isn't to.

Speaker 4 (53:16):
Pickle ball, I'm not, but neither of you.

Speaker 2 (53:19):
But like, let that be a part of Like that
can be a part of your.

Speaker 5 (53:23):
Positioning, and it can also be a part of your
back like strategy, and I really believe this, But but
just creating. So on the flip side, you have the
Brooklyn Pizza example, just creating content.

Speaker 4 (53:34):
It doesn't have any links going to it, it's not
related to the law.

Speaker 2 (53:38):
So I think creating a strategy that can be actually
door to door.

Speaker 3 (53:45):
So you're not going and sending an email to a
webmaster anymore, but you're sending a person into whatever business
or whatever thing that.

Speaker 2 (53:53):
You want, and you're having that conversation. So I'm saying
you're doing an old school right there.

Speaker 3 (53:59):
You're out, there's a salesperson essentially, and you're going into
another business. Let's say, uh, a local, smaller charity kind
of a huge one, but a local charity that gets
trafficked to this site. And you're like, look, we do
these second chance scholarships. We want you to come we
want to highlight your charity and do a blog. Really

(54:20):
want you to link back to our second Chance page
where we can offer your people's stuff.

Speaker 4 (54:26):
So and like this is the people who are getting
this are going to.

Speaker 2 (54:31):
Any any search terms related to car accident of criminal defense.
Is nothing to do it.

Speaker 4 (54:35):
But it's a localized link which is super super valuable.
And so take your chair.

Speaker 3 (54:41):
Easier to do that manually, maybe because you have a
live person sell it for right, Well no, but what
I mean is have the person go and talk to them,
not just randomly the person.

Speaker 2 (54:54):
And talk to them.

Speaker 5 (54:55):
Let me this is how I would do this. You're
going to identify one hundred charities in the Orlando area.
Play this out of the air.

Speaker 4 (55:02):
You've got the second Chance Scholarship.

Speaker 5 (55:04):
That you would like to give to their gift give
to them, right, they need to know about that. You
would like them to be able to apply to this.
And in conjunction, what you want to do is you're
going to send someone out to talk about your charity.

Speaker 4 (55:18):
I am just going to cover one hundred charities.

Speaker 5 (55:21):
In Orlando over the next two years, right, and that
is part of what we're going to do as a business.
I'm going to cover all these charities. And then let's
say you do the you know, don't kick puppies charity
and the I don't know, Save the Whales charity. You
can then take that content. So two things happen after this. A.
The people who are interested in save the whales who

(55:43):
don't kick puppies are going to see this organically. But
B you can also expand that to people like who
in Orlando likes puppies? Right, and you can actually do
targeting to so augment that with advertising. You start doing that,
now people like you. Now you're building brand affinity for
you because you care about what they care apart and
there's link building in this. There's dark social in this,

(56:03):
there is affinity building in this. Like this is the
future of law firms being really really successful.

Speaker 2 (56:10):
That's interesting.

Speaker 3 (56:11):
It's a lot of effort, but like a lot can
see is going to like a local charity that deals
with students to give a four year scholarships, say, look,
we like to help supplement your scholarships, and we like
to do a story on your website to our page
and we'll just dedicate that page to your charity and
what you like and whatever it is. So then you know,
and here's the scholarship where your students can do that.

(56:33):
We can either create a separate page for them or
just link you to our scholarship page and.

Speaker 4 (56:37):
They could apply and it lives on our site.

Speaker 2 (56:40):
The link goes back to our site.

Speaker 3 (56:42):
We also have a separate blog article that references their site,
and then we do some social on that website exactly right.

Speaker 2 (56:49):
And then we make sure they share it. And if
they don't share it, just make sure they know that
we're being posted to give them awareness. I think I'm
still missing a piece though, the advertisement targeting peace so here.

Speaker 5 (57:02):
So let's let's say you have the school right the
Montgomery High School in North Orlando playing outside of the air,
but you can find people who go to Montgomery High
School and target them.

Speaker 4 (57:13):
So high schools we've got. Now we're targeting children.

Speaker 5 (57:15):
But you get my point, who like Montgomery High School
we're involved in that, who live in that area. You
can get more exposure because you're never gonna get organic
enough organic exposure to do that right, but you can
buy exposure. And now you're introducing your firm as someone
who's supporting their local high school. You know what, like
all these teachers who are buying their their kids, their

(57:36):
their their pupils books and books and pencils and eraser that.

Speaker 4 (57:40):
Yeah, like that's terrible. You can step in and be
a good a good voice for that.

Speaker 3 (57:46):
Well, you could also actually use the web page even
though you've already worked it out where they're sending agreement back,
to actually get into the schools and start working a
group or something or a college. The same thing I
could get in front of group just can say look
at us site, well support you guys.

Speaker 5 (58:02):
And we put an article out and we're here and
we're just I want everyone to learn about what great
job Montgomery High School in North Orlanta was doing, or
or that don't kick the puppies, you know, I.

Speaker 2 (58:14):
Kind of like it don't kick the Puppies campaign.

Speaker 5 (58:16):
Well, there are always work well, but there are just
some things that like, everyone likes small businesses, right, everyone
likes small businesses.

Speaker 4 (58:25):
That's a part of the American dream. Everyone likes puppies.
And if you don't, well then.

Speaker 2 (58:30):
You run for office.

Speaker 4 (58:31):
But that's a different conversation.

Speaker 5 (58:34):
As long as you're not a cat person, right, But like,
there are just some things that like you can't hate
on right. If you're like, everyone likes the local sports team, right,
Like you want to just enfranchise everyone in Ohio because
you love Michigan.

Speaker 4 (58:48):
You're gonna wear that on your sleeve, and you happen
to do law the practice law in Michigan. Game on
all day long. Right, everyone likes the local sports team,
everyone likes these local success stories.

Speaker 5 (58:58):
Like the Dark Social Consent basically said, I'm going to
do all this engagement and for me to actually decide
that this person turned into a client because I sponsored
this thing or I did that.

Speaker 4 (59:11):
It doesn't work like that.

Speaker 5 (59:13):
The attribution becomes impossible and so thus dark and so
dark Social sounds kind of nefarious, but it really basically
means I can't pin down that this. I can't pin
down attribution to this specific thing. It's not like director
response people are billboard. It's billboards, and these things are
all self reinforcing, and so it's important to engage across

(59:35):
a variety of these things and understand and accept. So
it used to be if you can't measure it, why
would you bother doing it? The reality is most marketing
right now is multi touch. Most of the reasons that
people contact your firm, right, now isn't because of an
individual thing. It it's because of a panoply of things.

(59:55):
And to try and model what that looks like is
an exercise and stupid. Right as an understand that this
is a rising tide that he's going to lift those books,
and you're.

Speaker 3 (01:00:06):
Saying that, I was thinking, I got to hook you
up with a guy that was recently is on my show.
His name is Justin Friischett and he runs a hedge fund,
real estate fund. He's raising capital, but he's got a
side hustle, which was his main hustle when those businesses
are quiet. And it's very interesting, you know how there's
a lot of people on social media that by followers or.

Speaker 2 (01:00:26):
Do all that he doesn't do any of that. His
channeling though of he's able to get.

Speaker 3 (01:00:32):
It's not rocket science, but like if you were a
coach or an SEO person, he could put you in
inboxes of all these lawyers.

Speaker 2 (01:00:40):
Looking for SEO.

Speaker 3 (01:00:42):
And not on LinkedIn, on Instagram, and he has channels
that he's able to push you out among influencers.

Speaker 2 (01:00:50):
A legitimate and I really love that idea is like
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:00:54):
If it works necessarily necessarily for criminal lawyers and p
I lawyers. But it would definitely work for coaching service
vendors like yourself.

Speaker 2 (01:01:03):
And I had show. Its fascinating, like I might go
for it when I get to coaching. It works.

Speaker 3 (01:01:08):
It's different than LinkedIn, But what's great is it's also
involving the engagement.

Speaker 2 (01:01:13):
That's the hard part of it, which is engaging with
those people that are interesting.

Speaker 3 (01:01:17):
So you had your first conference which was really cool
down at the Speedway down.

Speaker 2 (01:01:24):
Yeah, you forgot.

Speaker 4 (01:01:25):
I was like, which conferences? Yeah, no, that was actually
that was bedlum five.

Speaker 2 (01:01:30):
But that wasn't your first. No, in fact, in person,
I don't know. No, we've done a bunch in person.
It's kind of evolved. But I like that.

Speaker 4 (01:01:42):
I like high end cars.

Speaker 2 (01:01:43):
That was fun. I didn't you know, I had to
get out of there.

Speaker 4 (01:01:47):
Did you get to drive?

Speaker 3 (01:01:48):
I didn't because, yeah, we'll have to do it again. Yeah,
I wanted to, Okay, But the thing for me was
I was down in Miami.

Speaker 2 (01:01:57):
I have friends. I was like, I don't want to
get out and go party, but I should have done it.

Speaker 3 (01:02:01):
It was great and I wanted to bring them down,
but I didn't feel like, you know, to bring them
into the race.

Speaker 2 (01:02:06):
I want to bother you of the ISTRA people, but
I thought it was great.

Speaker 3 (01:02:09):
I think everyone that stayed and raced I talked to
settle of them and enjoyed it great.

Speaker 5 (01:02:16):
So serious question, do you think I should I want
to do another conference a different location.

Speaker 4 (01:02:21):
Different location, but the location was garbage.

Speaker 2 (01:02:24):
No, I don't mean that it was cool.

Speaker 3 (01:02:26):
But they needed too far because yeah, but the venue
was worth I think it was hard to get a
hotel there.

Speaker 2 (01:02:32):
Yes, but it was a hotel. But it was still
good because of the experience.

Speaker 4 (01:02:37):
So do you think I should repeat the car experience
or do you think I should do something?

Speaker 2 (01:02:41):
Also, I think you just needed well I think I
just needed to do something different again.

Speaker 3 (01:02:47):
Okay, you can always revisit cars if you revisit cars,
or revisit a different location, but I.

Speaker 2 (01:02:52):
Would probably do something different.

Speaker 5 (01:02:54):
Okay, So the next I'm not kidding that the the
this is built out of our mastermind.

Speaker 4 (01:03:00):
The consensus is they want and this is completely off
brand for me.

Speaker 5 (01:03:05):
They want to go to Vegas and shoot machine guns
out of the helicopter.

Speaker 2 (01:03:09):
I've done that. I would absolutely say it's a great idea. Fuck,
this is it's kind of it's well, so okay, I did.

Speaker 4 (01:03:20):
They're just convinced me.

Speaker 2 (01:03:21):
No, No, it's on the wild side of that.

Speaker 3 (01:03:28):
I mean, it's not gonna be as good as paying
some x masad guy in Arizona without any filter and
shooting some ship up because the helicopter one is very controlled.
So that's probably why it's out of my vertical. But however,
I didn't raise cars, so I could be full of shit,
but I did enjoy the helicopter and the shooting.

Speaker 2 (01:03:49):
I think that that would be fun, okay, and you could,
so here's where I'm like geeky.

Speaker 3 (01:03:54):
You could also pair it with like windsurfing on the
oh bikes that I'm really bad head, but anyone who's
athletic will enjoy. I forget how they do it. We
went out there and you're on these like things that
look like.

Speaker 2 (01:04:06):
Tricycles and not tricycles because you're laid back and you
can put some speed up, and that's really fun. But
I do think that I think you're if the people
at the was it massive people said that.

Speaker 4 (01:04:17):
Like it's it's a master of my group of between
ten and twenty months.

Speaker 3 (01:04:22):
Yeah, I would suggest I would say yes, but I
think you got to pair it up with something else
because that's just the one time experience. You know, it
might be cool. Maybe if it's going to be the
theory is gonna be about guns. You do that and
then you go to like some range. But you go
to a range that's cool. They may have a combat
range there, so you're gonna have to build that price in.

Speaker 2 (01:04:42):
Okay. Yeah, is like I'm.

Speaker 5 (01:04:46):
Waiting hard Seattle Liberal. I haven't tried out of a
you know, like a sling show.

Speaker 3 (01:04:53):
You don't need to just the machine un is fun.
You just get That's why that's it's controlled. So you
may you may want to avoid the rain things and
that it gets hurt.

Speaker 2 (01:05:01):
I don't know people get hurt. I just like to
know it's just off the brand.

Speaker 4 (01:05:05):
I mean depends how hurt. But it's off guns are
off brand for me.

Speaker 2 (01:05:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:05:10):
But and race cars are like I tracked cars as
a hobby.

Speaker 2 (01:05:13):
I think the machine what do you think about the
machine gun thing?

Speaker 3 (01:05:15):
For a bunch of guys that don't want to go
we women too, sorry, but it's predominantly men that go
to these conferences.

Speaker 2 (01:05:21):
No, not a good idea guy, she doesn't like sports.
You or so I don't do sports.

Speaker 4 (01:05:25):
Probably guns were like sports, what next to a gun?

Speaker 3 (01:05:31):
But I think if you just do that, you got
to do a gun range at least, okay, and you
got to do the machine you gotta do it because
if it's a machine gun thing, that's just another Vegas thing.

Speaker 2 (01:05:42):
But I think if you do it, but the cost
though is very expensive, i'd imagine to do that.

Speaker 5 (01:05:47):
Well. I mean and lamboats was not It was okay,
it was not all that cheap, but like, but the space,
the space was great. The space, Yeah, that was part
of the thing that made it interesting is like we
could do it in a really cool space.

Speaker 3 (01:06:04):
You could You couldn't go all out, but and figure
out a space in Vegas. That's there may be other
places that do the machine gun thing, maybe in Arizona
or someone. You can get a space that's cooler, that's
tied to like I'm not saying cooler because the last
space is cool. What do you can just do the
opposite thing and do something crazy and do something in

(01:06:27):
Colombia managine bad lamb and medicine. I think you could
probably get a lot of people. That was the last
we heard of my bird.

Speaker 6 (01:06:36):
Marketing bad lamb hits medagine. I would suggest highly I
need to join your mastermind. And like Conrad doesn't like guns.

Speaker 2 (01:06:47):
They all they love.

Speaker 7 (01:06:49):
Everyone's excited about this except me. I think it's well,
this is a good lesson for you. It's not about
it's not about me. It's about your clients, right, all right, tomorrow.
You can't use the word I until we get to
the stories that you you so I would.

Speaker 2 (01:07:03):
I'm not part of that. I should join your mass wine.
But I do think that's a great idea.

Speaker 4 (01:07:07):
Okay, right, helicopter gunship.

Speaker 3 (01:07:09):
Yeah, I can work some of the angles out with you,
like ideas, because I think you need to kind of
like you won't have time for more than one or
two events.

Speaker 2 (01:07:17):
Yeah, I think they should be related somehow. And the
guys at the machine guns may have some kind of thing.
By the way, that would be really really cool. You
got to get Cuban drivers in Vegas. Now, this is
not racist. This is true.

Speaker 3 (01:07:35):
Because the average driver out there charges one hundred to
one hundred and fifty dollars for the black SUVs.

Speaker 2 (01:07:41):
Cuban guys that I know, I work deals out with them.

Speaker 3 (01:07:43):
I got two guys and they can probably get some
other guys and it's fifty bucks an hour, so it's
cheap for use.

Speaker 2 (01:07:49):
You go from whatever conference center.

Speaker 3 (01:07:51):
You put them up in the freaking big jacks SUVs,
and then the Cuban drivers both Lazaro and what's his name,
he's got the big ring. You fucking put the ship
in the car with like alcohol and you and and
also gummies are legal out there.

Speaker 2 (01:08:07):
Alcohol and guns go great, toe bill great. But you
go on the way there with none of that. But
they drive out there, they're gonna feel cool. Everyone's gonna
feel cool being in there. They go out there, they're excited.
You get them amped up. They go into the helicopter.

Speaker 3 (01:08:20):
They then on the way back break open the drinks
and the gummies and it's a good time. It's legal,
so it's nothing against you. And like, you can even
make mockingbird gummies. They'll probably be packaging them. Listen, you're
gonna be a mocking bird.

Speaker 2 (01:08:37):
I was using it. I sent you a picture. You
never responded.

Speaker 3 (01:08:40):
Yeah, when I was sick, I was using your mocking
bird cup to drink tea all day long.

Speaker 2 (01:08:45):
It was great.

Speaker 3 (01:08:46):
Honestly, for three days straight, four day straight, I was sick.
For a month, but I used it for five days
to save my voice. But anyway, so we're looking forward
to Vegas. We're gonna go to bedlamb. We're gonna shoot
some gums, come to shoot some guns, and we're gonna
eat some guns.

Speaker 2 (01:09:03):
Whatever that means. But so anyway, how do we get
in touch with you? How clients get in touch with you?

Speaker 5 (01:09:09):
A good thing for me is I have a really
unusual name. If you can google me, s am am.
When I do that, I'm not doing my job.

Speaker 2 (01:09:18):
Yeah, as mocking Bird right yep. Is there a website.

Speaker 4 (01:09:21):
Binbird Marketing dot com.

Speaker 3 (01:09:23):
Yep, yeah, but just look up Conrad Sam. You got
any questions and I'm gonna go next year, so you
got to give me the list.

Speaker 2 (01:09:29):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:09:30):
In fact, I may want to speak. Let's see how
my speech goes tomorrow. Actually okay, it'd be cool. So
but it was really fun having you on.

Speaker 8 (01:09:41):
Well, thanks for listening. The Lawman wants to hear from you.
So if you have any questions, going a shout out
follow them on Instagram at Bill's a Lawman. You can
also visit the website at www dot Thelawman dot net
on YouTube at Bill the lawman Umanski, and there'll be
placed there where you can ask questions, and if you
have any question about your business or anything, just hit
them up and we'll try to get an answer to you.

(01:10:04):
We try to bring the best advice that we possibly can.
And if you thought it was good, talk to your
friends and we'll see you next week