June 10, 2025 • 63 mins
Bestselling author Alina Adams returned to The Locher Room to talk about her brand-new historical novel, Go On Pretending—a powerful multigenerational saga spanning the golden age of 1950s television, the fall of the USSR, and the rise of the Women’s Revolution in Rojava, Syria.
Soap fans will love the story’s deep connection to Guiding Light, as it follows Rose Janowitz, a trailblazing woman navigating the early days of TV soap operas while hiding a taboo romance with Jonas Cain, the African-American star who made Guiding Light a radio sensation. As Rose tries to protect both their secrets and their future, her choices ripple through the lives of her daughter and granddaughter in unexpected, life-altering ways.
Known for her bestselling soap-inspired novels like Oakdale Confidential, Jonathan’s Story, and Soap Opera 451: A Time Capsule of Daytime Drama’s Greatest Moments, Alina brings her lifelong passion for the genre—and her own background as a Soviet immigrant who learned English through soap operas—to this deeply human, emotionally rich story about love, legacy, and liberation.
Don’t miss this special conversation with one of the most original voices in historical fiction and pick-up Go On Pretending where all books are sold.
Soap fans will love the story’s deep connection to Guiding Light, as it follows Rose Janowitz, a trailblazing woman navigating the early days of TV soap operas while hiding a taboo romance with Jonas Cain, the African-American star who made Guiding Light a radio sensation. As Rose tries to protect both their secrets and their future, her choices ripple through the lives of her daughter and granddaughter in unexpected, life-altering ways.
Known for her bestselling soap-inspired novels like Oakdale Confidential, Jonathan’s Story, and Soap Opera 451: A Time Capsule of Daytime Drama’s Greatest Moments, Alina brings her lifelong passion for the genre—and her own background as a Soviet immigrant who learned English through soap operas—to this deeply human, emotionally rich story about love, legacy, and liberation.
Don’t miss this special conversation with one of the most original voices in historical fiction and pick-up Go On Pretending where all books are sold.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
[Music]
(00:07):
Hi everybody, happy to have you here with me this evening in the locker room. I'm Alan Locker.
And I am thrilled to welcome back a true soap lover, mother of three wife and New York times best-selling author and my friend, Alina Adams.
Soap fans know her name well from her as the world turns in guiding light tie-in novels, Oak Del Confidential and Jonathan's story,
(00:30):
to her passionate chronicling of daytime's most iconic moments. Alina is a woman who not only grew up watching soaps but learned English through them and built a career celebrating their storytelling power.
Tonight we're diving into her brand new novel Go On Pretending, which is out today and available where all books are sold.
(00:51):
The story is a sweeping multi-generational story that blends soap opera history, political upheaval and deeply personal journeys across three generations of women.
It's a book that takes us from 1950's television studios to the fall of the USSR and to the front lines of the women's revolution in Syria.
(01:12):
All while pulling us into a world filled with secrets, ambition and legacy. We'll also talk about what it's like to write real-life soap legends like Erna Phillips and Sherita Bauer into fiction.
Why she felt now is the right time to revisit the world of soaps and how her own life inspired much of this remarkable new story.
(01:34):
So sit back, get comfortable and help me welcome the endlessly talented and always entertaining Alina Adams to the locker room.
Hello my friend.
Hello, I'm so excited. Usually I'm watching these now I'm actually a part of it.
Well, it's been a while since you've been here but congratulations, it's released day.
(01:55):
Yes, it is May 1st which we actually picked on purpose. It's May Day which was a major holiday in the Soviet Union so we figured why not let's lean in and do this.
Oh, that's very smart, very smart. Smart to do it on that day. How does it feel to you know have it out in the world?
You know, the thing about writing is you sit alone and you put scribbles on a piece of paper. I once heard a description of reading as people staring at dead trees and hallucinating wildly which I thought was a really interesting way to describe reading.
(02:31):
So you make these scribbles and you tell these stories and you send them out into the world and made two years later suddenly they're tangible but you've been living with them for two years already and you've been doing all this stuff to try to get ready for the launch and promote it.
That when it actually happens, it's almost unreal because this day May 1st, 2025, I've said it over and over and over again that the fact that it's actually here is sort of difficult to completely rock.
(03:00):
Do you actually still with buying? No, no, I actually type I type faster but I write my notes by hand and there's been a lot of cognitive research.
I mean, as you know in my other life, I also write about education so I could actually site you a bunch of studies that say that human beings actually do much better when they take notes by hand that when they take them on a computer.
(03:24):
When you think about it, our lizard brains were not developed for Apple products. Our lizard brains were barely getting the hang of writing.
Writing is still such a new thing for us, glorified apes. So the idea that our brains can take in information to computers is actually very new and people do much better when they take notes by hand.
Not for us writing. I actually have great handwriting but I'm working with young folks who do not write well.
(03:53):
Oh, absolutely not well, my I have three kids to my oldest the 25 year old can read cursive the 18 year old cannot because it's just something that in between, you know, the eight years of schooling.
He's the oldest one still learned handwriting. She didn't she can't read script. I once read something that if you really want to confuse young people is lock them in a room with the rotary phone and instructions on how to use it written in cursive.
(04:17):
They'll never get out of the room. Brilliant. Brilliant. So tell us what had you go back to the world of soap operas from go on pretending and.
Mazel to the fact that this is your 20th book. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Yes. So my last three books were historical fiction and they were Soviet based historical fiction. So in July of 2020 my book The Nesting Dolls came out.
(04:49):
Anyway, if anybody ever says to you, hey, want to release a book in a pandemic go. No, it's not a great idea, but that was already scheduled it with everything was said.
Well, it came out in July of 2020 and it was set during three time periods. It was set during the 1930s in the Soviet Union, which is during Stalin's great terror.
(05:10):
And it was set in the 1970s in the Soviet Union, which was during the Jewish Refusenic movement. And it was set in present day Brighton Beach.
The feedback that I got from readers is the part that they found most interesting was the one in the 1930s because for obvious reasons Western Europe gets the bulk of the press of the 1930s and 1940s.
(05:32):
And people had no idea what was going on in Eastern Europe in the 1930s under Stalin were also millions and millions of people were killed and imprisoned. But people just didn't know that because Western Europe drew most of the attention.
So when I did my second book, the one that came out in November of 2022, my mother's secret a novel of the Jewish Autonomous Region, I set the bulk of it in the Soviet Union during the 1930s and 40s because that is what people found most interesting.
(06:03):
And one of the peripheral things that I had mentioned was the fact that there were Americans who during the 1930s moved to the Soviet Union.
People who literally sold their possessions in the US because you had to pay the Soviet Union for the privilege of moving there and move to the Soviet Union. And people said to me that's impossible, nobody would ever do that.
(06:25):
So well, first of all, they did. So when it came to go on pretending, I decided to focus on who were these Americans who would have picked up and moved to the Soviet Union.
Oh, I set the story a little bit later in the 1950s and I started thinking about who would move to the Soviet Union. And then you know how they say right what you know.
(06:48):
So I sort of looked around my house today, who lives in my house. There's me. And so I was around the Soviet Union, but my husband is an African American.
And we got married in 1990. No. And yes, 1990. And so when we talk about like when we meet interracial couples who are like 20, 30 years older than us, we always say, oh, they got married back when people cared because by the time we got married in 1999, there's still pockets, but really nobody cares.
(07:23):
But in the 1950s, people cared. So I started to think an interracial couple would believe the propaganda that was coming out of the Soviet Union because the Soviet Union was saying we have no racism here.
We've outlawed racism. We've outlawed sexism. We've outlawed anti-Semitism. We've outlawed anything. We are completely equal society. That of course was bull, but that was the propaganda that they were putting out. And who would want to believe that?
(07:52):
An interracial couple would want to believe that that they could have a better life in the Soviet Union than they could have in the United States.
But then, you know, and this is a conversation that I've often had with with soap riders that black is not a personality. Virgin is not a personality. Deaf is not a personality.
People need a larger personality than an immutable characteristic. So other than being an interracial couple, they needed to have lives.
(08:17):
And once again, we're back to what you know. What do I know about? I know about soap operas. And that's when I came up with the scenario. Let's say you have a soap opera on the radio. Let's say it has a name like the guiding light that those important because that's what it did at the time.
Let's say that's a radio soap opera. It certainly did until the 1970s.
(08:40):
Exactly. It's what it plays. It's called the guiding light. And let's say you hire an actor for the guiding light to voice the character. It's the radio. Nobody can see you on the radio.
And let's say you hire an actor. Very clever idea. Very clever idea.
Thank you. Let's say you hire an African American actor. And now the show is transitioning to television. Well, what are you going to do now?
(09:08):
And what if the woman who is a producer on the show is the woman who is dating the black man? What do you do then? And what if you work for a formidable incredible force of nature by the name of Urna Phillips?
And this is where things get very interesting because Urna Phillips was a, I mean, I didn't know her, you didn't know her, but I actually did quite a bit of research both on books that had been written about her documentation that we had back when we were both at PNG.
(09:41):
And Urna is a woman who liked things her way. I mean, there are numerous stories of actors getting it.
That's a nice way of putting it. We'll build. We'll build like this is Monday and we'll build to a Friday.
So, you know, there's multiple stories of actors being fired because they said something rude to Urna.
(10:04):
And then there's one of my favorite stories about Urna is that once the show was already on television, it was a proctored gamble who decided they want to take it to color because it had been in black and white.
And Urna didn't like any ideas that weren't Urna's ideas. So, she was forced to do a test of a color episode, but she wrote the entire episode to be set in an operating room.
(10:32):
So, it was all just white on white. That was Urna's way of saying no, no, no, no, no, you don't decide when my show goes to color. I decide when my show goes to color.
Which is the attitude that I took to. Yes, Urna was willing to hire this African-American actor for the radio because it's the radio and Urna says the show always comes first.
(10:53):
And if he truly was the best candidate for the role, absolutely.
But now it's time to switch to television. Urna actually paid out of her own pocket to shoot the pilot.
Yeah, for the television of Guiding Light because at the time P&GX TV was a fad. It wasn't going to go anywhere because who would want to stay in the same room and have to be able to watch something? No, radio, you can move around the house, you can deliver, you want.
(11:22):
People aren't going to want to sit in front of a device and stare at it. TV is a fad. It's never going to last.
But Urna paid out of her own pocket to shoot a television pilot for Guiding Light and you know for years they shot the radio show and the television show simultaneously.
People would go to the studio, they would shoot the radio episode, then they would shoot the TV episode because Urna was so she was confident about the TV.
(11:49):
But again, she wanted the backup and in fact the sponsors wanted the backup. So for a couple of years it was both. And Urna was not going to risk her television debut.
What she had paid for herself by putting an African American actor on the screens. And here's the thing. I just said all these things that never happened.
(12:11):
That's something that I'm it might have happened for all we know it did happen. It just never ended up in the archives. But here is sort of the crux of writing historical fiction, the main dilemma.
I created real, I didn't create real people. They created themselves. I put them in this story. I have Urna Phillips. I have Shared a Bower who played Burt's.
Burt, I have the O'Guts who played Papa Bower. I have a quick appearance by Agnes Nixon who was one of Urna's Prudeges and would then go on to create you know my children in one life to live and loving.
(12:41):
So I put all these real people in a story that didn't happen. And I gave them opinions and attitudes that I think are accurate based on the research I did. But they never happened.
Yeah, it's a fascinating turn. Did you ever contemplate someone else other than Urna as you know and Rose?
(13:11):
Well, here's what I could have done. And here's what some historical fiction people do is they change a couple of names like there was a movie that came out I believe in the 1970s called I want to say, oh the Greek tycoon.
And here you see if this is a situation that the writers made up. So he was a self-made Greek tycoon who married an American woman whose husband was the president and he had been killed and his brother was the attorney general.
(13:44):
Now clearly this was a completely fictitious situation because can you imagine in real life first what president would make his brother the attorney general nobody would stand for that.
Furthermore, how many presidents have been assassinated whose wives then went on to marry Greek tycoons. Clearly this is a completely fictional story.
And people do that all the time like they'll fictionalize it just a little bit and everybody knows who it's supposed to be.
(14:10):
And I consider doing that I could have made up you know instead of earn a fill-ups you know, earn a fall-ups or something. But I decided in the end what would be the point.
The fact is why do a fake earn a fill-ups when I might as well at least give some credit because here's the thing people need to know that this woman this you know orphan from Chicago invented an entire genre.
(14:37):
The reason they're called soap operas is as you know because they were she did them with conjunction with PNG and PNG sold soap to the point where their studios were called port ivory because ivory soap was paying for everything.
It's amazing when you call someone today still and that they didn't realize that that's the case.
(14:59):
I was going to just say on beyond the gates they keep every scene that Nicole is in she keeps spraying for breeze and people are like what is she doing why she keeps spraying for breeze and then there was a shot of Jacob and Naomi in bed together and there was a big can of tide sort of I don't know about you.
I don't really keep tied in bed with me.
I don't need it but I have not noticed those things but I watch with my eye pan like as I get ready.
(15:27):
Well and then so she's eating him dessert in bed and she spills some chocolate and she's like oh don't worry I have tied and people are like what is this and I'm like children this is a soap opera.
This is what is paying for this to be on the air.
No it's like earn a fill-ups would say hold my beer because this is this is what the shows were created to do they were created to sell products and so I actually find it really funny that people are shocked.
(15:55):
That beyond the gates which is partially also owned by Proctor and you know what is this all over the place.
So yes but that was all earned.
You know to go back to it this is a woman who created an entire genre so if I'm gonna base a character on her I might as well give her credit.
100% and I'm so glad you did.
If you as the writer the reporter the soap lover that you are we're sitting opposite Ms. Urna Phillips what would be the one question you'd love to ask her.
(16:27):
Well probably I'd be so intimidated I just kind of go yes you're right whatever you say you are correct.
Well you know how she used to write her shows is she used to dictate them and she wrote. Yeah to Rose her assistant Rose in a stream of consciousness that and she would play all the characters and she would just dictate like that.
(16:48):
I would actually be curious for her how her process worked because for me I can't dictate.
I have to you know it has to be done through my fingers and I would love to hear sort of what whether she was visualizing the scenes or whether she was acting out the scenes I'd be curious about her process because that's a really interesting way to do it.
(17:09):
I love that I was curious I'm so glad.
Talk about how much of go on pretending is also which you said a little based on your life.
Well here's the thing you know how at the beginning of all books it says no characters represented are related to anyone living or dead so that's my official disclaimer.
(17:33):
So here's the thing my daughter is 18 and when there was a scene that I was writing for later on after Rose and Jonas end up in the Soviet Union and their daughter Emma grows up in the Soviet Union.
But then she comes to the United States and so I asked my daughter I said to her okay I need you to do this I need you to pretend that you're the daughter of a Russian Jew or soap opera writer and an over educated black man and my daughter went I think I can do that.
(18:06):
And then I said to her so if you if that were you and we had actually just gone to Moscow in 2019 so she could actually see what a homogeneous society it is and I asked her if you had grown up in Moscow as the daughter of these people and you came to the United States to New York in particular what would strike you what would you sort of notice on the streets and my daughter she said something that I would have never thought of she said hair.
(18:33):
She said I would have been so blown away by the different types of hair and the different hair styles how you can wear your hair in so many different ways so I a I ended up using that in the book as what Emma observes but to answer your question how much of it is based on my life well none at all.
In my in my first historical fiction the nesting dolls as my oldest son said I don't know why people think the characters of Gideon and Zoe are based on you because Gideon grew up in New York City went to private school and then went to Caltech and dad grew up in New York City went to private school and then went to MIT so it is so obvious that they are completely different people.
(19:22):
I don't know why people keep asking any soap fan picking up this book would fall in love with it immediately because of the urna and the guiding light and rose all of that it really it you you your love of the genre comes off every page.
(19:44):
I hope so I hope so because well you know when you love something you have fun with it and when you critique it because you love it it's actually very hard to genuinely critique something that you don't love so yes I hope that that comes through that yes it's ridiculous the fact is sometimes the dialogue on soaps can be ridiculous sometimes the situations on soaps can be ridiculous but there's always sort of this core of the home I don't know what you're talking about.
(20:13):
Exactly I mean how many people don't know someone who's come back from the dead or let's say their entire family but the fact is is that there's still a genuine emotion underneath how would you react if someone you loved came back from the dead is the situation slightly ridiculous yes but the emotion is real so when I play around with soap tropes and acknowledge that sometimes they can be silly it's because it's because I love it's it's a lot of things.
(20:42):
I'm actually glad so glad that you said that that came through because I hope that that was genuine and then there's also the little Easter eggs that I planted which you picked up on which you picked up.
Yeah the spinoff I don't like makes it makes its way into the book.
You have a book launch party this Saturday May 3rd at 6 p.m. It's in a very sweet little bookstore called my Bibliatica it's in Brooklyn and it's going to be both in person and remote so if people want to join to watch remotely they can there will be a streaming component but the in person component will have Soviet food I'm thinking tiny pickles.
(21:30):
Let's see and so here's the thing I asked people what should I serve it my Soviet book launch and the number one item that people suggested was caviar and I'm like people how much money do you think writers make but but maybe I might get a little jar for effect because that would be kind of cute but definitely I'm thinking little pickles and I'm thinking maybe
(21:52):
Pierski which are like little dumpling things I'm thinking some Russian candy which is like sort of pure sugar so if you come in person Saturday my Bibliatica you can google it go and pretending Alina Adams book launch on May 3rd if you come in person there will be Soviet snacks if you watch remotely I can show you the Soviet snacks but it'll be hard to get.
novella princess says palpatine in star wars star wars came back from the dead and people lost their minds yes they did and they didn't even explain it by something good like they were on an island or they had amnesia in fact the crawl this is how geeky I am the crawl says somehow palpatine has returned from the dead that wouldn't fly out of soap what do you mean somehow give me a really good reason like I don't know what I'm doing.
(22:41):
Like I don't know a villainous family kept them on ice for 30 years yet that's a good reason I believe that they should have said that about.
So you just mentioned and I need to ask taking the family to the Soviet Union in 2019 wasn't the Soviet Union to be fair it was a waste of money.
Russia so yeah sorry yeah good I need a history lesson I mean still what was that like.
(23:08):
It's it's difficult to describe what before that moment in 2019 when was the last time you had been there.
The last time I was there was in 1995 I was working for 1996 yeah thank you 596 I was working for ABC sports in their figure skating department and we went to Moscow and we went to St. Petersburg because we were shooting features with the skaters but here's the interesting part.
(23:37):
So the time I had been there before that was 1988 my mother and I went back in 1988 and because that was right after Gorbachev comes to power and that's when he sort of opens the country which is interesting because in Go on pretending the reason that rose and Jonas go to the Soviet Union in 1957 is they go for the 1957 World Youth Festival which is when yes the Soviet Union through pro-democracy festival.
(24:05):
That's amusing all in its own way but it was because of this.
So that's around the world at the moment.
Yeah but in 1957 the Soviet Union throwing the pro-democracy festival.
Yeah right in 1957 correct.
But it was because Nikita Khrushchev was in power and he had just exposed all of Stalin's crimes and this was right after the 20th party Congress where he explained about Stalin's death camps and the executions and the
(24:34):
executions and everything else.
So Nikita Khrushchev was trying to show the world what no we're the new and we're the better Soviet Union.
We are open we are democratic we have a little bit of free press.
So it was actually a very similar moment in 1957 for the World Youth Festival which is why Rose and Jonas and I'm going to the Soviet Union.
(24:55):
In 1988 my mother and I went to the Soviet Union because Gorbachev had come to power and he was pretty much saying the same thing.
So up until that point we would have never considered going back because we would have been afraid that we couldn't come back to the United States but there was a brief and at the time we thought for all we know this is a very brief window.
(25:16):
Because the Soviet Union tends to operate in windows like in the 1950s there was a brief which they called Khrushchev's fall.
And then when we immigrated in the 1970s there was a very brief window where Jews were allowed to leave the Soviet Union.
So you never know when things are going to open and close.
So my mother and I went in 1988 and at the time because it was still the Soviet Union you'd be walking down the street and then suddenly there would be just huge signs saying glory to the Soviet Union or long live communism.
(25:44):
These huge banners were everywhere. That was 1988. Just a couple of years later when I went there in 1995 I were an alien who landed in Moscow.
I would think that I was in the city of Kitkat in the country of Marlboro because all of the communist banners had been taken down and in their place was advertising everywhere.
(26:07):
It was just like there's this big splash. It's sort of like when we were coming to the United States my parents said they thought that all of America looked like Times Square.
They thought that all of America would you know the big lights and the advertising.
So when I was there in the Soviet Union in the mid 90s suddenly advertising was allowed and it was just everywhere.
(26:29):
By the time we went back in 2019 it had sort of been tapered down and now it's sort of looked pretty much like almost any other it looked like pretty much any other European city.
Moscow is actually based on rings and it's three rings. It's a city that's arranged like that.
My husband said he always felt like he was tilting when he was walking because the whole city is based on circles.
(26:52):
But it was different in the sense that like the reason we went there is because my oldest son was doing an internship there. So we took the younger two kids and we visited.
And one of the things that my son told my husband is he said you know always make sure that you're wearing a nice shirt and a sports jacket because otherwise they might look at you and they might think you're an African immigrant here to steal their jobs and you know what that's problems.
(27:15):
So when we went to the kind of things like when we would go to museums I would go and I would buy the tickets so we wouldn't get charged the foreigner prices.
But by the time we went to Moscow it was not the place. It was not the Soviet Union. Actually to put it very simply it was not the Soviet Union in the sense just that it didn't look like it.
It was a lot like pretty much any other European city but of course all this stuff percolated underneath and that's the interesting because as I said that the reason that rose in Jonas in Go on Pretending End of Moving to the Soviet Union is because they believe what they say about how they've outlawed racism and they've outlined it.
(27:53):
Yeah it wasn't true then it's not true now but it's almost like they're not even pretending. Oh go on pretending. It's not like they're even pretending anymore that that's the case.
Was it difficult letting your son do his internship there? Oh yeah my parents were thrilled I cannot put it into words. So yeah it was.
Your parents your parents shared their thoughts very deeply with you. They did and to say they were thrilled would just be to give a new meaning to the word.
(28:23):
Yes I see Pinocchio out on the street. No it was it was it was hard but the fact is I'm I'm that mom I'm the one who says things yeah try it that'll be exciting that'll be fun.
I mean I give him credit for even doing it I mean that is really something.
Yeah he had actually had done a gap year between high school and college where he actually lived in Moldova which is a former Soviet Republic.
(28:52):
He had lived there for a year and it was actually a program for the United States State Department.
I called it the Junior Spies of America program. They said no no no no it's just for the learning of vital languages.
Here are the vital languages that you learn from this non-Junior Spies of America program. Russian, Korean, Mandarin, Farsi, vital for what?
(29:17):
So my son did the Russian program so he actually lived there for almost a year and studied Russian.
Wow you know I don't even know all of the and I don't even know what the words but you know interracial.
Russia United States you know what do you what are the words that you use to educate your kids about you know Scott and you are somewhat.
(29:52):
From very different places and.
To say where racial interfaith intercultural those are the three things right so you know that it's a lot so like it's like.
You know and you know they look like Scott a lot right.
(30:15):
You know and we we we live in unfortunately a very sad society that doesn't always accept us for what we look like or who we are Jews, Gays, Blacks, all of it.
You know but you have so much history between the two of you it's like I'm just fascinated like how do you.
(30:38):
You know lead them on a path you know and educate them about both of your worlds and how to deal you know sort of what rose and Jonas are dealing with in the book you know you said there's a moment that I referenced earlier a lot of people come to it happen to you I mean those are real.
(30:59):
In fact that's the other thing everything that happens to Rose and Jonas in New York because they are an interracial couple happened to us in one form or another you know I might have changed some details so that's actually all all of its authentic but you know here's the thing you know how young people love the word trauma it's their favorite word.
(31:23):
Very often I will mention something to my kids about my life and they go let's unpack that and I go let's not because basically the the things that are called trauma I call life and I mean to just turn this around a little bit on you Alan I mean I've actually told my kids about your parents I've told about them about your mother being a hidden child I talked about your father wasn't he living with the partisans at 13 years old in the woods.
(31:52):
Yeah he lived in the woods. Yeah yeah and that's the whole thing so everyone I've actually referenced your father when my children think their lives are hard and I explain to them that they are not but I will also tell you that very often I think of the family that hid your mother and that reminds me that there are good people in the world and I will actually even tell you something else so in the nesting dolls as I said there's a 1970s section which is a lot of people who are in the world.
(32:21):
The 90s section which is during the Jewish Refusing Movement in the Soviet Union where Jews were trying to leave the Soviet Union and they weren't allowed and people were fired from their jobs and people were forced to pay what's called a diploma tax where basically before you left the country you had to reimburse the Soviet Union for your education and it was such an obscene amount of money that most people couldn't do it.
(32:43):
And I remember talking to my mother about it at the time and she said when you write about the bad things make sure that you mentioned the good people she said make sure that you mentioned that there were people who helped like she said there were factories that took up collections so that the people could immigrate and play pay the diploma tax.
(33:04):
So when I think about the people who hid your mother I think about what my mother said is she said make sure that when you write about the bad things you also remind that there are always good people and that there are always people who will help add risk to themselves and when you ask what do we tell our kids we tell them about the bad things but we also try to remind them that they're good people too.
(33:29):
That's awesome. I mean I'm glad I asked because you know you do and you know I wish I'd been talking about them a lot longer than I have.
On that sort of subject will you tell folks about the essay you wrote for the Jewish book council called do you find the interracial Jewish family in my novel unbelievable good.
So I may have received some feedback that I will first I was told that I don't know how immigrant families work and then I was told that I don't know how black interracial families work and I remember telling my cousin about it and I told her how people said I don't know how immigrant families work and she laughed and then I said and then I was told that I don't know how interrelation
(34:18):
interracial relationships work and there was this dead silence and then she said I'm sorry I wasted all the laughing on the first one I didn't have anything left for the second one.
Yes I have been advised that when I write about a Soviet Jewish character who then dates or marries an African American one that no Soviet Jewish family would ever accept this.
(34:44):
Full stop never and if I say that that's possible I am wrong.
Just within my own family much less other people that I know and then I've also been told that the black characters that I write they're too educated they're too aridite and here's the main one they have interest outside of being black.
(35:07):
They don't sit around and talk about being black and I will tell you a story from our days at guiding light.
Do you remember when I think it was Rick and Mel Rick and Mel were together for a while they were married for a while and then they had a daughter and we actually did like even a little voting thing on the baby's name of something we did on the website.
Yeah, we have a lot of names they came up with but we came and it was actually my suggestion because I wanted them to just a moment about me.
(35:35):
I wanted them to name the baby Leslie because Rick's mother had been Leslie and she was a character that nobody had ever really remembered after Leslie died by the way one of the characters I think killed off because her nose and about moved that day.
But Leslie and I thought it would be a nice tribute for the fans because they never mentioned Rick's mother and who cares what the baby's name was really but instead it was changed higher up they combined Leslie and Felicia which was Mel's mother's name and came up with Leah but in any way and at the time I remember being told that somebody I will not mention who it was a PNG who actually said this to me that they didn't think the name was black enough.
(36:15):
And I said you know I can't speak for all black people in fact I can't speak for any but I can say that my husband can go I don't know minutes, may hours without thinking about being black.
He has other interests for instance who Palpatine we might spend some time discussing how Palpatine came back he's a big part of the Scott wood.
(36:36):
Yes, you know the big comic book fan we are an incredibly sexy couple and we talk about education policy because he's a teacher and I also write about education so we have many many interests that are outside of us being an interracial couple in fact we don't spend our days discussing it they come up in conversation sometimes but why today.
(36:57):
Well actually though sometimes we will be funny enough sometimes we'll be like be holding hands and he'll look at them in contrast and go wow you're really white.
Because I am I am very very white in fact there was a TV show called Two Broke Girls where one of the characters cat dennings she brought in like there's a black character and the blonde girl said to her oh is this your father.
(37:26):
And she says yes and my mother was a piece of chalk and my oldest son laughed at that so hard that he literally fell off the couch so to this day sometimes I am a piece of chalk that this is absolutely true but it is not a main topic of discussion at our house and the fact that I write about interracial couple who have other interests like in the case of Rose and Jonas in go on pretending.
(37:49):
He's an actor she's a writer they are trying to stage a Marxist version of a fellow which is also kind of funny but that's a separate issue they have interests that are outside of discussing whatever immutable characteristic they may have brought to the relationship.
Yeah I mean you know you think back I mean you know how lucky we are which we'll get to and talk more about beyond the gates but you know we didn't do black well I'm guiding light.
(38:18):
They were moments.
It was well to be fair you know the contract players on guiding light here is their first black cast on the guiding light contract players you have Bility Williams James or Jones.
I know.
So for a while we had well let's put it this way guiding light let go of some excellent talent.
(38:40):
Yes.
I mean Tay Diggs Kevin Manbo Monty Sharp Terrell Tilford Victoria.
Near long.
Near long.
Near long.
Ivana I love to death.
Yeah so we almost had Ivana and Murray Bartlett together in a race.
Oh okay.
(39:01):
Oh this matter remember there was sort of like a blue.
At the end it was that was a Jellory and my idea.
Yeah that's that that's so much pretty as the young people say that.
That would have been overwhelming pretty.
Yeah that would have been too much overwhelming pretty.
But to be fair most of those most of those don't do anything.
(39:24):
Correct.
Anything else that it was certain box well to be fair.
Very very true.
I mean we could talk about gay.
But anyway let's talk about the tie ends Oakdale confidential.
Yes that was the first one.
Yeah it was it was in 2006 it was done as a tie in to the shows 50th anniversary which remember we did a lot of events for that.
(39:51):
And the premise was that this was a book that was sort of like I guess Peyton place ish in the sense that within the story in Oakdale.
A mystery writer had written this tell all book about it was a it was Carly Katie and Maddie.
(40:12):
I remember you doing that photo shoot with the with the three women.
And so it was a big sort of mystery and scandal who wrote this book.
It turned out to actually be Katie but for a while Nancy claimed that she had done it so you had actually mentioned Helen Wagner.
So that was that was part of it and so that came out in conjunction with as the world turns 50th anniversary and it spent two weeks at number three on the New York Times bestseller list for anyone who said then or now that soaps are dead.
(40:48):
Maybe they're not what they were you know at the height of the Luke and Laura days.
But the fact is they could still put a book on the New York Times bestseller list so that was Oakdale.
So was it Mickey or Bill who came how did this idea come do you remember it was we were all talking about what we were going to do for the 50th which was going to be a major year and my suggestion was because so here's the thing.
(41:15):
PNG owned as the world turns but it aired on CBS and the parent company for CBS also own Simon and Schuster so yes I remember yes we had a meeting with Simon and Schuster yes so it was actually I need a drug up here so long time it was almost 20 years ago.
(41:39):
So we went over there we didn't do it with the editor with Maggie Crawford who was the editor and so yes that went through Mickey and then we did that for 2006 and then it did so well after it had you know hit the New York Times bestseller list that that Christmas they released a special Christmas edition.
(42:08):
Which actually because the first one was released under anonymous because since they the whole mystery was who had written it the real world was anonymous the one that came out for Christmas a special edition which had a new prologue and a new epilogue was by Katie Peretti with Alina Adams.
(42:32):
So even though I did all the work I got the second I got the second billing and yet because you know imaginary people they never carry their share of the work because you know Terry Conn is a real pretty is not so that was the first one that one came out and that one was done the second edition was the Christmas of that year because the anniversary as the world turns is in the spring right there's a time when I could do this off the top of my head I could remember the date of as the world turns but it isn't.
(43:01):
The world turns but it is in the spring and then this was for Christmas and then after that the following year we did the guiding light tie and Jonathan story and that one was different because Oakdale confidential took the real sort of like a real story a mystery and then fictionalized it but used real characters like Katie and Carly and Mattie Coleman.
(43:28):
So that was something that had happened in story was the fact that the book was published but the story in the book was not something that happened on the air it had Craig and it had Sierra and it had the character that had been on back in the like in the 80s it had Ariel so it had all sorts of that this was me basically taking my favorite characters and showing them in there.
(43:55):
But Jonathan story was different our concept for Jonathan story was different because Tom Pelfrey had left the show as Jonathan had left the show and taking his and Lizzie's baby Sarah with him and then Tom came back for a short stint I want to say maybe like a six weeks or something like that and so Jonathan story was different because it was the real story of what had happened to Jonathan while he was in the show.
(44:24):
And then that pulled in Alan and Riva and they were part they had committed a murder off screen and the whole premise was that suddenly Alan and Riva left town to look for Jonathan and then these two characters who on and off hated each other came back and suddenly they were the best of pals and that had something to do with Jonathan and that was the mystery so the concept was very important.
(44:53):
But it was very different because it was actually real as opposed to not real it's like we're working at multiple levels of real here and that it's all pretend but Oakdale confidential was a pretend story about a pretend story and Jonathan story was a real story about a pretend story.
And that 10 times and keep track of that. So that that was a very different concept and that also did very well I think that made the top 10 of the New Year times best cell list and then we did one more tie in book we did the man from Oakdale which was again written by Henry Coleman and the link.
(45:29):
I was going to say it was Henry yeah.
It was the man from Oakdale and that was not something that happened for real but it was actually part of Henry's paranoia of what might happen so yeah they were all very different but and that one won the scribe award and the scribe award is they're given for best tie in book so that book won the international scribe award at Comic Con which is super cool we got to go to Comic Con.
(45:57):
It did I'll show you actually I have the little price somewhere here somewhere on my book in my shelf it's like a cute little trophy.
So that was fun. Where we also went to discuss how Palpatine came back to life she see it in the salt.
Well we did earlier we really haven't had a chance to talk about beyond the gates so you know the news broke last year that CBS the double NAACP and our old boss PNG were going back into this soap business.
(46:32):
I know is that it is that the most like did you have that on your bingo card ever?
Never in a million years what what your reaction? Not only I mean PNG a soap opera a black soap opera all combination with CBS the NAACP and PNG what were your thoughts?
(46:54):
What my first thoughts I think we're like everybody else this is never going to happen this is just I mean how many times have we had just how many times have we heard that all my children is coming back as a series of TV movies or we're going to do this spin off and it never happened so I think my first thought was okay look another development deal I'm happy a writer has a development deal Michelle Valjean is a fabulous writer I'm so happy she has a development deal but no way is this ever going to happen.
(47:20):
And then it happens and then tomorrow Carly and Daphne yeah and not to mention the incredible Susan Dan's be who we both know from as the world turns the street editor there so that that that is a stacked that is a stacked deck also if I may people
Danielle Paige I mean yes yes a ton of people have been stressing the fact that this is the first all let's not all black soap opera.
(47:49):
It's not all black soap opera it's majority black soap opera but here's something that I think really got lost in the shuffle this is the first show to be executive produced and had written by a woman in forever because all four shows up in the air days of our lives just replace their writing team so they now have women writing but for the last almost decade we have had soaps.
(48:13):
I would like to go on the record is saying a women's medium there's a lot of men who are so fans my own husband grew up watching all my children perfectly fine but it was a women's medium was a woman created for women by women for a decade we mostly had male executive producers and male headwriters so I think I'd like to throw into the mix first and for must about beyond the gates is that it's phenomenal that you have women who are both head writer and executive producing and I covered they are the most important thing for me.
(48:42):
I covered they did a red carpet premiere of the beyond the gates at the payley center in New York and I covered that and they put a the executive producer from PNG in front of me their choice.
And so I being me and as you can all tell I'm very shy and retiring and don't like to talk they put her in front of me and I had a microphone and well that was just asking for it.
(49:09):
I said so if this show is a success can we see as the world turns in guiding light back and another world to know throw that in there why not.
It's a very political dancing around an answer but I did ask so for the record I did ask and it's just.
I mean did you watch the week leading up to be on the game with the mistake.
(49:36):
Oh yes.
About you know the longest running show and they showed as the world turns or said as the world turns.
Yes and they could have just qualified it with you know today view on TV or there's ways I mean it should have never made it to air as a mistake coming from CBS and PNG.
(49:58):
Many years for the daytime Emmys as a researcher for the daytime Emmys so you can always make anything sound unique.
You know to the point where this is the first actor with brown eyes wearing a blue suit who has won this award you can always narrow something but what they went with was just so wrong.
That's the word we're looking for wrong but yes I did I did watch that lead up to it and I have been watching beyond the gates but see here's the thing it's beyond the gates is more than beyond the gates.
(50:27):
This show in and of itself is almost the smallest piece of it the biggest part of it is what this means is this going to bring the genre back to life is this going to prove I mean the fact is all the shows have always had a very large black audience.
I just proportionately black audience to the to the population so because here's the thing it's not money and I don't have a problem with that money is a great way to keep score if it's something makes money.
(50:55):
It's going to be on the air no matter how somebody feels about it personally which is beautiful because you can be horribly horribly racist but if you're running a network and a black show is making you money you're going to put a black show on the air like God intended so I'm actually perfectly fine with that so this show it almost like is too much on its shoulders.
(51:16):
Because the problem is if this show doesn't do well people are going to say oh a woman run show don't do well or a black show won't do well when that's not what it means it's not like when a Marvel movie fails at the box office people go well you know moving produced by a white guy we shouldn't make any more of those because those don't make money that doesn't happen so that's beyond the gates is carrying so much on its shoulders that in a way it's terrifying but it's also exciting.
(51:44):
Are you enjoying it? I'm enjoying aspects of it I will be completely honest but I have never watched any show where I have loved every single story.
I think tomorrow is always great. Carla Mosley is actually I think really showing what she can I was she was always fine on other shows she was never bad and you know her stand on the bone the beautiful was certainly very interesting but they're really sort of letting her shine.
(52:12):
You know Daphne I think is finally being able to show what she can do where again she was fine or other shows but again the role she played on passions no one can pull off that role I mean that was.
She's you know I think some of the young cast are really they're getting there because you know Alan you remember we were especially as the world turns went through a period where they hired a lot of young very attractive people of different levels of acting ability but they all work.
(52:41):
Super hard and they improved from episode to episode to episode and there are definitely some young people on beyond the gates where I think like when we see them a year from now they're going to be phenomenal because they are literally improving from episode to episode to episode.
Yeah I agree I mean I I I'm enjoying it Carla I mean tomorrow I mean thank God somebody you know I mean underused on as the world turns for so long I mean it was you well.
(53:16):
But you know this is one of the things I asked her because she was also in that red carpet premier that I covered is that you know the thing with Jessica on as the world turns and with so many minority characters and minority that can work for race and sexuality and religion and everything else they they're putting a box because they have to be good and they have to be perfect and they have to represent because.
(53:40):
Anytime you go a little bit to the side go well that's a very negative connotation you can show a character like that that way so the fact is one of the things I asked tomorrow is you know what brought you back to daytime because you know she's been doing really well I mean what she's on lawn order and she's was in like the feature films with can or even some alpuchino or the devil devil's advocate.
(54:01):
No she's been really great so I asked her what brought you back to daytime and she said it was this part and it was the opportunity for these characters to finally be messy that was the word that was sort of used a lot that night is that they no longer have to be the model minority no matter what minority they are so that is very exciting and that when it's a whole cast then you're going to have good people and bad people just like you doing real life did you know that people of different ethnicities really.
(54:30):
And ethnicities races religion sexuality gender some of them are terrible and some of them are wonderful and most of them are a little bit of both.
Yeah it's it's been fun to watch it really has and you know every soap six months the first six months they're just figure out who they are and this is actually a classic example when you know when I mentioned one of the things that my husband and I talk about sometimes he gets lectures on the history of soap whether he asks for them or not.
(54:59):
And one of the things that I was telling him is okay loving loving premieres in the early 1980s I believe created by Agnes Nixon the woman who created all my children and one life to live in Doug Marland the man who won Emmys for guiding light and as the world turns and all the things so these two phenomenal experience powerhouse soap creators create loveings loving and the first six months are.
(55:27):
If you look at the first six months of loving they had no idea what was going to work half the cast was replaced in the first six months entire characters and story arcs were written out and this is Agnes Nixon and Doug Marland here's another example also lecture I gave my husband when the cold bees premiered as you know love the covees I love the cold but here's the thing so the cold bees premieres created by.
(55:55):
Karen spelling if anybody knows how to make television is there a spelling and Richard and Esther Shapiro who also know what they're doing and they create this show and they cast Charlton Heston and Barbara Stanley and Catherine Ross and this British unknown nobody has ever heard of called Stephanie Beachham and within the first hour of the show Stephanie Beachham the least known member of the cast by the end of that hour is a fan favorite.
(56:23):
And they set up this triangle where Jason Colby Charlton has been married to sayble Colby Stephanie Beachham for an unknown number of years because it's so soon you can never figure out why people are only 10 years younger than the people playing their children and issue beyond the gates needs to work on side note but they claim that Charlton has been in love with Catherine Ross his sister in law the whole time.
(56:47):
And Aaron spelling and Richard and Esther Shapiro make the gamble that because Catherine Ross is familiar to audiences from which Cassidy and the Sundance kid and the graduate people are going to root for Jason to get together with Frankie not realizing what they have on screen with Stephanie Beachham who wins over the fans even though she's the bad person and they play that story out for a year.
(57:15):
As if they believe Jason and Frankie are the rooting couple when they're not and this is Aaron spelling my point being not just that I get passionate about these things but that even incredibly experienced people never know how their stories are going to play until they hit the air and even then they sometimes stubbornly stick to what they think the viewers should want when it's so obvious that the viewers want something else.
(57:38):
Amen to that tell me do you watch other shows currently well I do because I actually I work for soap up which is a site that covers all the shows so I watch the young and the restless and I watch days of our lives and I write about them and I tune into general hospital periodly the only one I do not watch is the bold and the beautiful my apologies to all the people who love the bold and the beautiful I have never been able to get into the bowl in the beautiful I was also a little petty because it replaced capital which I really did like and I was in high school.
(58:07):
And I was in high school at the time and you know when you get when high school you get I really did like capital as well to be honest so yeah bold and beautiful replaced it but that's the only one that I'm aware of what's going on and I certainly know the cast but that's not one that I watch right now what are you liking on what you're watching.
I really put me on the spot there huh let's see the young and the restless is very pretty it has a very nice lighting.
(58:37):
No I actually here's the thing I on the young and the restless I really liked Adam and Sally Mark Rosman and Courtney Hope I really liked that couple I thought guiding light had finally struck gold and they decided to break them up.
You mean young and the restless yeah sorry young the restless yeah sorry they all merge in my head after well yes on the young and the restless young we're so excited to break them up so I don't get it but then I'm not just.
(59:02):
And let's see days days of our lives I can genuinely say the guy who plays EJ I'm not going to try to pronounce his last name Dan for angle that how you pronounce it you think someone was made in a city very not ski would be more respectful of people with.
Names but I think he's fabulous I was just saying to someone the other day he should get all the prizes the guy can do anything he can play drama he can play comedy he can play scenes where he's evil he can play scenes where he's romantic he can play scenes where he loves his mother he can play scenes where he's you know hoping his son will forgive him he's even good with the child actors who plays Rachel he is amazing give him all the awards I have to look him up I have to look him up.
(59:44):
Did you like Colleen and Ray wise together that was fun that was fun and you know I was actually chatting with Colleen on on Facebook messenger and she was saying how after she did her first scene Eric Braggen said to her oh they sent me a pro and I'm like yes Colleen is a pro you know we get we spend time with her and ask the world
(01:00:06):
to put any script in front of her Colleen will make it work yeah I they they they they they did gangbusters with that that was fun and it was fun actually that they did it as a limited run to because with characters like that you can't really let them run too long but it was perfect it was just the right length it wasn't too long it wasn't too short and of course and Ray wise talk about another pro it's actually been fun I think was it a couple of years ago that the Emmys for guest starring performers was one by Ray wise and Donna
(01:00:36):
Mills and I thought how perfect that was because you know Donna Mills did incredible work on not landing during a time period where I mean still true this was a soap ghetto nobody was going to give her a prime time and even though the work she was doing at multiple layers so I think it's soap that she did a guest run on general hospital and wins the Emmy because she deserves a million percent for being Donna Mills.
(01:01:00):
100% 100% before I let you go are you writing the next one well I'm always writing something but right now I'm actually trying something a little bit different because as I mentioned I do I also write a lot about education so my age actually shopping around is an NYC schools murder mystery because you know how I remember the college scandal of a couple of years ago
(01:01:27):
and I'm just going to work that in there but the kind of stuff people do to get their kids to get into college believe it or not in New York City they do that to get their kids into kindergarten and so I love that that's phenomenal that it's a comedic novel about what the New York City school scene is like so that's actually what my agent is currently shopping around so if anybody out there would like to publish a book on that topic.
(01:01:56):
Come to me. I love that well you'll have to come back and we'll have to actually get real moms to join.
Oh that would be actually that would be really fun to get.
It really it really good.
But for now is it's a Lena Adams dot com right?
Yes it's a Lena Adams dot com the book is go on pretending it's available anywhere if your bookstore doesn't have it make the mortar it and if your public library doesn't have it make the mortar it because that's good for me too.
(01:02:25):
And if you enjoy it please write a review on either good reads or on Amazon or wherever you do it and my social media is on Instagram is I am a Lena Adams and you can actually find me on Facebook as a Lena Severinocky with them if that's too hard to spell there's also a Lena Adams media so I'm.
Patrick Irwin said a Lena should be ahead of daytime for one of the networks lots of ideas.
(01:02:53):
Patrick thank you thank you so much Patrick thank you for coming and thank you everybody who who tuned into night I really appreciate this has been super fun I haven't talked so upset anyone but my husband for a long time so it's nice to get to.
Say hello to your husband and thank you for doing this and keep up the great work.
Alina so good to see you my friend.
Thank you so much thank you for having me.
(01:03:15):
Thanks everybody for tuning in thank you to author Alina Adams for spending the hour her brand new historical novel go on pretending is available where all books are sold.
If you haven't yet subscribed to my YouTube channel you can do so down below if you like today's episode please click the like button it always helps and if you like to stream audio versions just search the locker room on your favorite podcast app.
(01:03:39):
[Music]
[Music]
[Music]
(00:07):
Hi everybody, happy to have you here with me this evening in the locker room. I'm Alan Locker.
And I am thrilled to welcome back a true soap lover, mother of three wife and New York times best-selling author and my friend, Alina Adams.
Soap fans know her name well from her as the world turns in guiding light tie-in novels, Oak Del Confidential and Jonathan's story,
(00:30):
to her passionate chronicling of daytime's most iconic moments. Alina is a woman who not only grew up watching soaps but learned English through them and built a career celebrating their storytelling power.
Tonight we're diving into her brand new novel Go On Pretending, which is out today and available where all books are sold.
(00:51):
The story is a sweeping multi-generational story that blends soap opera history, political upheaval and deeply personal journeys across three generations of women.
It's a book that takes us from 1950's television studios to the fall of the USSR and to the front lines of the women's revolution in Syria.
(01:12):
All while pulling us into a world filled with secrets, ambition and legacy. We'll also talk about what it's like to write real-life soap legends like Erna Phillips and Sherita Bauer into fiction.
Why she felt now is the right time to revisit the world of soaps and how her own life inspired much of this remarkable new story.
(01:34):
So sit back, get comfortable and help me welcome the endlessly talented and always entertaining Alina Adams to the locker room.
Hello my friend.
Hello, I'm so excited. Usually I'm watching these now I'm actually a part of it.
Well, it's been a while since you've been here but congratulations, it's released day.
(01:55):
Yes, it is May 1st which we actually picked on purpose. It's May Day which was a major holiday in the Soviet Union so we figured why not let's lean in and do this.
Oh, that's very smart, very smart. Smart to do it on that day. How does it feel to you know have it out in the world?
You know, the thing about writing is you sit alone and you put scribbles on a piece of paper. I once heard a description of reading as people staring at dead trees and hallucinating wildly which I thought was a really interesting way to describe reading.
(02:31):
So you make these scribbles and you tell these stories and you send them out into the world and made two years later suddenly they're tangible but you've been living with them for two years already and you've been doing all this stuff to try to get ready for the launch and promote it.
That when it actually happens, it's almost unreal because this day May 1st, 2025, I've said it over and over and over again that the fact that it's actually here is sort of difficult to completely rock.
(03:00):
Do you actually still with buying? No, no, I actually type I type faster but I write my notes by hand and there's been a lot of cognitive research.
I mean, as you know in my other life, I also write about education so I could actually site you a bunch of studies that say that human beings actually do much better when they take notes by hand that when they take them on a computer.
(03:24):
When you think about it, our lizard brains were not developed for Apple products. Our lizard brains were barely getting the hang of writing.
Writing is still such a new thing for us, glorified apes. So the idea that our brains can take in information to computers is actually very new and people do much better when they take notes by hand.
Not for us writing. I actually have great handwriting but I'm working with young folks who do not write well.
(03:53):
Oh, absolutely not well, my I have three kids to my oldest the 25 year old can read cursive the 18 year old cannot because it's just something that in between, you know, the eight years of schooling.
He's the oldest one still learned handwriting. She didn't she can't read script. I once read something that if you really want to confuse young people is lock them in a room with the rotary phone and instructions on how to use it written in cursive.
(04:17):
They'll never get out of the room. Brilliant. Brilliant. So tell us what had you go back to the world of soap operas from go on pretending and.
Mazel to the fact that this is your 20th book. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Yes. So my last three books were historical fiction and they were Soviet based historical fiction. So in July of 2020 my book The Nesting Dolls came out.
(04:49):
Anyway, if anybody ever says to you, hey, want to release a book in a pandemic go. No, it's not a great idea, but that was already scheduled it with everything was said.
Well, it came out in July of 2020 and it was set during three time periods. It was set during the 1930s in the Soviet Union, which is during Stalin's great terror.
(05:10):
And it was set in the 1970s in the Soviet Union, which was during the Jewish Refusenic movement. And it was set in present day Brighton Beach.
The feedback that I got from readers is the part that they found most interesting was the one in the 1930s because for obvious reasons Western Europe gets the bulk of the press of the 1930s and 1940s.
(05:32):
And people had no idea what was going on in Eastern Europe in the 1930s under Stalin were also millions and millions of people were killed and imprisoned. But people just didn't know that because Western Europe drew most of the attention.
So when I did my second book, the one that came out in November of 2022, my mother's secret a novel of the Jewish Autonomous Region, I set the bulk of it in the Soviet Union during the 1930s and 40s because that is what people found most interesting.
(06:03):
And one of the peripheral things that I had mentioned was the fact that there were Americans who during the 1930s moved to the Soviet Union.
People who literally sold their possessions in the US because you had to pay the Soviet Union for the privilege of moving there and move to the Soviet Union. And people said to me that's impossible, nobody would ever do that.
(06:25):
So well, first of all, they did. So when it came to go on pretending, I decided to focus on who were these Americans who would have picked up and moved to the Soviet Union.
Oh, I set the story a little bit later in the 1950s and I started thinking about who would move to the Soviet Union. And then you know how they say right what you know.
(06:48):
So I sort of looked around my house today, who lives in my house. There's me. And so I was around the Soviet Union, but my husband is an African American.
And we got married in 1990. No. And yes, 1990. And so when we talk about like when we meet interracial couples who are like 20, 30 years older than us, we always say, oh, they got married back when people cared because by the time we got married in 1999, there's still pockets, but really nobody cares.
(07:23):
But in the 1950s, people cared. So I started to think an interracial couple would believe the propaganda that was coming out of the Soviet Union because the Soviet Union was saying we have no racism here.
We've outlawed racism. We've outlawed sexism. We've outlawed anti-Semitism. We've outlawed anything. We are completely equal society. That of course was bull, but that was the propaganda that they were putting out. And who would want to believe that?
(07:52):
An interracial couple would want to believe that that they could have a better life in the Soviet Union than they could have in the United States.
But then, you know, and this is a conversation that I've often had with with soap riders that black is not a personality. Virgin is not a personality. Deaf is not a personality.
People need a larger personality than an immutable characteristic. So other than being an interracial couple, they needed to have lives.
(08:17):
And once again, we're back to what you know. What do I know about? I know about soap operas. And that's when I came up with the scenario. Let's say you have a soap opera on the radio. Let's say it has a name like the guiding light that those important because that's what it did at the time.
Let's say that's a radio soap opera. It certainly did until the 1970s.
(08:40):
Exactly. It's what it plays. It's called the guiding light. And let's say you hire an actor for the guiding light to voice the character. It's the radio. Nobody can see you on the radio.
And let's say you hire an actor. Very clever idea. Very clever idea.
Thank you. Let's say you hire an African American actor. And now the show is transitioning to television. Well, what are you going to do now?
(09:08):
And what if the woman who is a producer on the show is the woman who is dating the black man? What do you do then? And what if you work for a formidable incredible force of nature by the name of Urna Phillips?
And this is where things get very interesting because Urna Phillips was a, I mean, I didn't know her, you didn't know her, but I actually did quite a bit of research both on books that had been written about her documentation that we had back when we were both at PNG.
(09:41):
And Urna is a woman who liked things her way. I mean, there are numerous stories of actors getting it.
That's a nice way of putting it. We'll build. We'll build like this is Monday and we'll build to a Friday.
So, you know, there's multiple stories of actors being fired because they said something rude to Urna.
(10:04):
And then there's one of my favorite stories about Urna is that once the show was already on television, it was a proctored gamble who decided they want to take it to color because it had been in black and white.
And Urna didn't like any ideas that weren't Urna's ideas. So, she was forced to do a test of a color episode, but she wrote the entire episode to be set in an operating room.
(10:32):
So, it was all just white on white. That was Urna's way of saying no, no, no, no, no, you don't decide when my show goes to color. I decide when my show goes to color.
Which is the attitude that I took to. Yes, Urna was willing to hire this African-American actor for the radio because it's the radio and Urna says the show always comes first.
(10:53):
And if he truly was the best candidate for the role, absolutely.
But now it's time to switch to television. Urna actually paid out of her own pocket to shoot the pilot.
Yeah, for the television of Guiding Light because at the time P&GX TV was a fad. It wasn't going to go anywhere because who would want to stay in the same room and have to be able to watch something? No, radio, you can move around the house, you can deliver, you want.
(11:22):
People aren't going to want to sit in front of a device and stare at it. TV is a fad. It's never going to last.
But Urna paid out of her own pocket to shoot a television pilot for Guiding Light and you know for years they shot the radio show and the television show simultaneously.
People would go to the studio, they would shoot the radio episode, then they would shoot the TV episode because Urna was so she was confident about the TV.
(11:49):
But again, she wanted the backup and in fact the sponsors wanted the backup. So for a couple of years it was both. And Urna was not going to risk her television debut.
What she had paid for herself by putting an African American actor on the screens. And here's the thing. I just said all these things that never happened.
(12:11):
That's something that I'm it might have happened for all we know it did happen. It just never ended up in the archives. But here is sort of the crux of writing historical fiction, the main dilemma.
I created real, I didn't create real people. They created themselves. I put them in this story. I have Urna Phillips. I have Shared a Bower who played Burt's.
Burt, I have the O'Guts who played Papa Bower. I have a quick appearance by Agnes Nixon who was one of Urna's Prudeges and would then go on to create you know my children in one life to live and loving.
(12:41):
So I put all these real people in a story that didn't happen. And I gave them opinions and attitudes that I think are accurate based on the research I did. But they never happened.
Yeah, it's a fascinating turn. Did you ever contemplate someone else other than Urna as you know and Rose?
(13:11):
Well, here's what I could have done. And here's what some historical fiction people do is they change a couple of names like there was a movie that came out I believe in the 1970s called I want to say, oh the Greek tycoon.
And here you see if this is a situation that the writers made up. So he was a self-made Greek tycoon who married an American woman whose husband was the president and he had been killed and his brother was the attorney general.
(13:44):
Now clearly this was a completely fictitious situation because can you imagine in real life first what president would make his brother the attorney general nobody would stand for that.
Furthermore, how many presidents have been assassinated whose wives then went on to marry Greek tycoons. Clearly this is a completely fictional story.
And people do that all the time like they'll fictionalize it just a little bit and everybody knows who it's supposed to be.
(14:10):
And I consider doing that I could have made up you know instead of earn a fill-ups you know, earn a fall-ups or something. But I decided in the end what would be the point.
The fact is why do a fake earn a fill-ups when I might as well at least give some credit because here's the thing people need to know that this woman this you know orphan from Chicago invented an entire genre.
(14:37):
The reason they're called soap operas is as you know because they were she did them with conjunction with PNG and PNG sold soap to the point where their studios were called port ivory because ivory soap was paying for everything.
It's amazing when you call someone today still and that they didn't realize that that's the case.
(14:59):
I was going to just say on beyond the gates they keep every scene that Nicole is in she keeps spraying for breeze and people are like what is she doing why she keeps spraying for breeze and then there was a shot of Jacob and Naomi in bed together and there was a big can of tide sort of I don't know about you.
I don't really keep tied in bed with me.
I don't need it but I have not noticed those things but I watch with my eye pan like as I get ready.
(15:27):
Well and then so she's eating him dessert in bed and she spills some chocolate and she's like oh don't worry I have tied and people are like what is this and I'm like children this is a soap opera.
This is what is paying for this to be on the air.
No it's like earn a fill-ups would say hold my beer because this is this is what the shows were created to do they were created to sell products and so I actually find it really funny that people are shocked.
(15:55):
That beyond the gates which is partially also owned by Proctor and you know what is this all over the place.
So yes but that was all earned.
You know to go back to it this is a woman who created an entire genre so if I'm gonna base a character on her I might as well give her credit.
100% and I'm so glad you did.
If you as the writer the reporter the soap lover that you are we're sitting opposite Ms. Urna Phillips what would be the one question you'd love to ask her.
(16:27):
Well probably I'd be so intimidated I just kind of go yes you're right whatever you say you are correct.
Well you know how she used to write her shows is she used to dictate them and she wrote. Yeah to Rose her assistant Rose in a stream of consciousness that and she would play all the characters and she would just dictate like that.
(16:48):
I would actually be curious for her how her process worked because for me I can't dictate.
I have to you know it has to be done through my fingers and I would love to hear sort of what whether she was visualizing the scenes or whether she was acting out the scenes I'd be curious about her process because that's a really interesting way to do it.
(17:09):
I love that I was curious I'm so glad.
Talk about how much of go on pretending is also which you said a little based on your life.
Well here's the thing you know how at the beginning of all books it says no characters represented are related to anyone living or dead so that's my official disclaimer.
(17:33):
So here's the thing my daughter is 18 and when there was a scene that I was writing for later on after Rose and Jonas end up in the Soviet Union and their daughter Emma grows up in the Soviet Union.
But then she comes to the United States and so I asked my daughter I said to her okay I need you to do this I need you to pretend that you're the daughter of a Russian Jew or soap opera writer and an over educated black man and my daughter went I think I can do that.
(18:06):
And then I said to her so if you if that were you and we had actually just gone to Moscow in 2019 so she could actually see what a homogeneous society it is and I asked her if you had grown up in Moscow as the daughter of these people and you came to the United States to New York in particular what would strike you what would you sort of notice on the streets and my daughter she said something that I would have never thought of she said hair.
(18:33):
She said I would have been so blown away by the different types of hair and the different hair styles how you can wear your hair in so many different ways so I a I ended up using that in the book as what Emma observes but to answer your question how much of it is based on my life well none at all.
In my in my first historical fiction the nesting dolls as my oldest son said I don't know why people think the characters of Gideon and Zoe are based on you because Gideon grew up in New York City went to private school and then went to Caltech and dad grew up in New York City went to private school and then went to MIT so it is so obvious that they are completely different people.
(19:22):
I don't know why people keep asking any soap fan picking up this book would fall in love with it immediately because of the urna and the guiding light and rose all of that it really it you you your love of the genre comes off every page.
(19:44):
I hope so I hope so because well you know when you love something you have fun with it and when you critique it because you love it it's actually very hard to genuinely critique something that you don't love so yes I hope that that comes through that yes it's ridiculous the fact is sometimes the dialogue on soaps can be ridiculous sometimes the situations on soaps can be ridiculous but there's always sort of this core of the home I don't know what you're talking about.
(20:13):
Exactly I mean how many people don't know someone who's come back from the dead or let's say their entire family but the fact is is that there's still a genuine emotion underneath how would you react if someone you loved came back from the dead is the situation slightly ridiculous yes but the emotion is real so when I play around with soap tropes and acknowledge that sometimes they can be silly it's because it's because I love it's it's a lot of things.
(20:42):
I'm actually glad so glad that you said that that came through because I hope that that was genuine and then there's also the little Easter eggs that I planted which you picked up on which you picked up.
Yeah the spinoff I don't like makes it makes its way into the book.
You have a book launch party this Saturday May 3rd at 6 p.m. It's in a very sweet little bookstore called my Bibliatica it's in Brooklyn and it's going to be both in person and remote so if people want to join to watch remotely they can there will be a streaming component but the in person component will have Soviet food I'm thinking tiny pickles.
(21:30):
Let's see and so here's the thing I asked people what should I serve it my Soviet book launch and the number one item that people suggested was caviar and I'm like people how much money do you think writers make but but maybe I might get a little jar for effect because that would be kind of cute but definitely I'm thinking little pickles and I'm thinking maybe
(21:52):
Pierski which are like little dumpling things I'm thinking some Russian candy which is like sort of pure sugar so if you come in person Saturday my Bibliatica you can google it go and pretending Alina Adams book launch on May 3rd if you come in person there will be Soviet snacks if you watch remotely I can show you the Soviet snacks but it'll be hard to get.
novella princess says palpatine in star wars star wars came back from the dead and people lost their minds yes they did and they didn't even explain it by something good like they were on an island or they had amnesia in fact the crawl this is how geeky I am the crawl says somehow palpatine has returned from the dead that wouldn't fly out of soap what do you mean somehow give me a really good reason like I don't know what I'm doing.
(22:41):
Like I don't know a villainous family kept them on ice for 30 years yet that's a good reason I believe that they should have said that about.
So you just mentioned and I need to ask taking the family to the Soviet Union in 2019 wasn't the Soviet Union to be fair it was a waste of money.
Russia so yeah sorry yeah good I need a history lesson I mean still what was that like.
(23:08):
It's it's difficult to describe what before that moment in 2019 when was the last time you had been there.
The last time I was there was in 1995 I was working for 1996 yeah thank you 596 I was working for ABC sports in their figure skating department and we went to Moscow and we went to St. Petersburg because we were shooting features with the skaters but here's the interesting part.
(23:37):
So the time I had been there before that was 1988 my mother and I went back in 1988 and because that was right after Gorbachev comes to power and that's when he sort of opens the country which is interesting because in Go on pretending the reason that rose and Jonas go to the Soviet Union in 1957 is they go for the 1957 World Youth Festival which is when yes the Soviet Union through pro-democracy festival.
(24:05):
That's amusing all in its own way but it was because of this.
So that's around the world at the moment.
Yeah but in 1957 the Soviet Union throwing the pro-democracy festival.
Yeah right in 1957 correct.
But it was because Nikita Khrushchev was in power and he had just exposed all of Stalin's crimes and this was right after the 20th party Congress where he explained about Stalin's death camps and the executions and the
(24:34):
executions and everything else.
So Nikita Khrushchev was trying to show the world what no we're the new and we're the better Soviet Union.
We are open we are democratic we have a little bit of free press.
So it was actually a very similar moment in 1957 for the World Youth Festival which is why Rose and Jonas and I'm going to the Soviet Union.
(24:55):
In 1988 my mother and I went to the Soviet Union because Gorbachev had come to power and he was pretty much saying the same thing.
So up until that point we would have never considered going back because we would have been afraid that we couldn't come back to the United States but there was a brief and at the time we thought for all we know this is a very brief window.
(25:16):
Because the Soviet Union tends to operate in windows like in the 1950s there was a brief which they called Khrushchev's fall.
And then when we immigrated in the 1970s there was a very brief window where Jews were allowed to leave the Soviet Union.
So you never know when things are going to open and close.
So my mother and I went in 1988 and at the time because it was still the Soviet Union you'd be walking down the street and then suddenly there would be just huge signs saying glory to the Soviet Union or long live communism.
(25:44):
These huge banners were everywhere. That was 1988. Just a couple of years later when I went there in 1995 I were an alien who landed in Moscow.
I would think that I was in the city of Kitkat in the country of Marlboro because all of the communist banners had been taken down and in their place was advertising everywhere.
(26:07):
It was just like there's this big splash. It's sort of like when we were coming to the United States my parents said they thought that all of America looked like Times Square.
They thought that all of America would you know the big lights and the advertising.
So when I was there in the Soviet Union in the mid 90s suddenly advertising was allowed and it was just everywhere.
(26:29):
By the time we went back in 2019 it had sort of been tapered down and now it's sort of looked pretty much like almost any other it looked like pretty much any other European city.
Moscow is actually based on rings and it's three rings. It's a city that's arranged like that.
My husband said he always felt like he was tilting when he was walking because the whole city is based on circles.
(26:52):
But it was different in the sense that like the reason we went there is because my oldest son was doing an internship there. So we took the younger two kids and we visited.
And one of the things that my son told my husband is he said you know always make sure that you're wearing a nice shirt and a sports jacket because otherwise they might look at you and they might think you're an African immigrant here to steal their jobs and you know what that's problems.
(27:15):
So when we went to the kind of things like when we would go to museums I would go and I would buy the tickets so we wouldn't get charged the foreigner prices.
But by the time we went to Moscow it was not the place. It was not the Soviet Union. Actually to put it very simply it was not the Soviet Union in the sense just that it didn't look like it.
It was a lot like pretty much any other European city but of course all this stuff percolated underneath and that's the interesting because as I said that the reason that rose in Jonas in Go on Pretending End of Moving to the Soviet Union is because they believe what they say about how they've outlawed racism and they've outlined it.
(27:53):
Yeah it wasn't true then it's not true now but it's almost like they're not even pretending. Oh go on pretending. It's not like they're even pretending anymore that that's the case.
Was it difficult letting your son do his internship there? Oh yeah my parents were thrilled I cannot put it into words. So yeah it was.
Your parents your parents shared their thoughts very deeply with you. They did and to say they were thrilled would just be to give a new meaning to the word.
(28:23):
Yes I see Pinocchio out on the street. No it was it was it was hard but the fact is I'm I'm that mom I'm the one who says things yeah try it that'll be exciting that'll be fun.
I mean I give him credit for even doing it I mean that is really something.
Yeah he had actually had done a gap year between high school and college where he actually lived in Moldova which is a former Soviet Republic.
(28:52):
He had lived there for a year and it was actually a program for the United States State Department.
I called it the Junior Spies of America program. They said no no no no it's just for the learning of vital languages.
Here are the vital languages that you learn from this non-Junior Spies of America program. Russian, Korean, Mandarin, Farsi, vital for what?
(29:17):
So my son did the Russian program so he actually lived there for almost a year and studied Russian.
Wow you know I don't even know all of the and I don't even know what the words but you know interracial.
Russia United States you know what do you what are the words that you use to educate your kids about you know Scott and you are somewhat.
(29:52):
From very different places and.
To say where racial interfaith intercultural those are the three things right so you know that it's a lot so like it's like.
You know and you know they look like Scott a lot right.
(30:15):
You know and we we we live in unfortunately a very sad society that doesn't always accept us for what we look like or who we are Jews, Gays, Blacks, all of it.
You know but you have so much history between the two of you it's like I'm just fascinated like how do you.
(30:38):
You know lead them on a path you know and educate them about both of your worlds and how to deal you know sort of what rose and Jonas are dealing with in the book you know you said there's a moment that I referenced earlier a lot of people come to it happen to you I mean those are real.
(30:59):
In fact that's the other thing everything that happens to Rose and Jonas in New York because they are an interracial couple happened to us in one form or another you know I might have changed some details so that's actually all all of its authentic but you know here's the thing you know how young people love the word trauma it's their favorite word.
(31:23):
Very often I will mention something to my kids about my life and they go let's unpack that and I go let's not because basically the the things that are called trauma I call life and I mean to just turn this around a little bit on you Alan I mean I've actually told my kids about your parents I've told about them about your mother being a hidden child I talked about your father wasn't he living with the partisans at 13 years old in the woods.
(31:52):
Yeah he lived in the woods. Yeah yeah and that's the whole thing so everyone I've actually referenced your father when my children think their lives are hard and I explain to them that they are not but I will also tell you that very often I think of the family that hid your mother and that reminds me that there are good people in the world and I will actually even tell you something else so in the nesting dolls as I said there's a 1970s section which is a lot of people who are in the world.
(32:21):
The 90s section which is during the Jewish Refusing Movement in the Soviet Union where Jews were trying to leave the Soviet Union and they weren't allowed and people were fired from their jobs and people were forced to pay what's called a diploma tax where basically before you left the country you had to reimburse the Soviet Union for your education and it was such an obscene amount of money that most people couldn't do it.
(32:43):
And I remember talking to my mother about it at the time and she said when you write about the bad things make sure that you mentioned the good people she said make sure that you mentioned that there were people who helped like she said there were factories that took up collections so that the people could immigrate and play pay the diploma tax.
(33:04):
So when I think about the people who hid your mother I think about what my mother said is she said make sure that when you write about the bad things you also remind that there are always good people and that there are always people who will help add risk to themselves and when you ask what do we tell our kids we tell them about the bad things but we also try to remind them that they're good people too.
(33:29):
That's awesome. I mean I'm glad I asked because you know you do and you know I wish I'd been talking about them a lot longer than I have.
On that sort of subject will you tell folks about the essay you wrote for the Jewish book council called do you find the interracial Jewish family in my novel unbelievable good.
So I may have received some feedback that I will first I was told that I don't know how immigrant families work and then I was told that I don't know how black interracial families work and I remember telling my cousin about it and I told her how people said I don't know how immigrant families work and she laughed and then I said and then I was told that I don't know how interrelation
(34:18):
interracial relationships work and there was this dead silence and then she said I'm sorry I wasted all the laughing on the first one I didn't have anything left for the second one.
Yes I have been advised that when I write about a Soviet Jewish character who then dates or marries an African American one that no Soviet Jewish family would ever accept this.
(34:44):
Full stop never and if I say that that's possible I am wrong.
Just within my own family much less other people that I know and then I've also been told that the black characters that I write they're too educated they're too aridite and here's the main one they have interest outside of being black.
(35:07):
They don't sit around and talk about being black and I will tell you a story from our days at guiding light.
Do you remember when I think it was Rick and Mel Rick and Mel were together for a while they were married for a while and then they had a daughter and we actually did like even a little voting thing on the baby's name of something we did on the website.
Yeah, we have a lot of names they came up with but we came and it was actually my suggestion because I wanted them to just a moment about me.
(35:35):
I wanted them to name the baby Leslie because Rick's mother had been Leslie and she was a character that nobody had ever really remembered after Leslie died by the way one of the characters I think killed off because her nose and about moved that day.
But Leslie and I thought it would be a nice tribute for the fans because they never mentioned Rick's mother and who cares what the baby's name was really but instead it was changed higher up they combined Leslie and Felicia which was Mel's mother's name and came up with Leah but in any way and at the time I remember being told that somebody I will not mention who it was a PNG who actually said this to me that they didn't think the name was black enough.
(36:15):
And I said you know I can't speak for all black people in fact I can't speak for any but I can say that my husband can go I don't know minutes, may hours without thinking about being black.
He has other interests for instance who Palpatine we might spend some time discussing how Palpatine came back he's a big part of the Scott wood.
(36:36):
Yes, you know the big comic book fan we are an incredibly sexy couple and we talk about education policy because he's a teacher and I also write about education so we have many many interests that are outside of us being an interracial couple in fact we don't spend our days discussing it they come up in conversation sometimes but why today.
(36:57):
Well actually though sometimes we will be funny enough sometimes we'll be like be holding hands and he'll look at them in contrast and go wow you're really white.
Because I am I am very very white in fact there was a TV show called Two Broke Girls where one of the characters cat dennings she brought in like there's a black character and the blonde girl said to her oh is this your father.
(37:26):
And she says yes and my mother was a piece of chalk and my oldest son laughed at that so hard that he literally fell off the couch so to this day sometimes I am a piece of chalk that this is absolutely true but it is not a main topic of discussion at our house and the fact that I write about interracial couple who have other interests like in the case of Rose and Jonas in go on pretending.
(37:49):
He's an actor she's a writer they are trying to stage a Marxist version of a fellow which is also kind of funny but that's a separate issue they have interests that are outside of discussing whatever immutable characteristic they may have brought to the relationship.
Yeah I mean you know you think back I mean you know how lucky we are which we'll get to and talk more about beyond the gates but you know we didn't do black well I'm guiding light.
(38:18):
They were moments.
It was well to be fair you know the contract players on guiding light here is their first black cast on the guiding light contract players you have Bility Williams James or Jones.
I know.
So for a while we had well let's put it this way guiding light let go of some excellent talent.
(38:40):
Yes.
I mean Tay Diggs Kevin Manbo Monty Sharp Terrell Tilford Victoria.
Near long.
Near long.
Near long.
Ivana I love to death.
Yeah so we almost had Ivana and Murray Bartlett together in a race.
Oh okay.
(39:01):
Oh this matter remember there was sort of like a blue.
At the end it was that was a Jellory and my idea.
Yeah that's that that's so much pretty as the young people say that.
That would have been overwhelming pretty.
Yeah that would have been too much overwhelming pretty.
But to be fair most of those most of those don't do anything.
(39:24):
Correct.
Anything else that it was certain box well to be fair.
Very very true.
I mean we could talk about gay.
But anyway let's talk about the tie ends Oakdale confidential.
Yes that was the first one.
Yeah it was it was in 2006 it was done as a tie in to the shows 50th anniversary which remember we did a lot of events for that.
(39:51):
And the premise was that this was a book that was sort of like I guess Peyton place ish in the sense that within the story in Oakdale.
A mystery writer had written this tell all book about it was a it was Carly Katie and Maddie.
(40:12):
I remember you doing that photo shoot with the with the three women.
And so it was a big sort of mystery and scandal who wrote this book.
It turned out to actually be Katie but for a while Nancy claimed that she had done it so you had actually mentioned Helen Wagner.
So that was that was part of it and so that came out in conjunction with as the world turns 50th anniversary and it spent two weeks at number three on the New York Times bestseller list for anyone who said then or now that soaps are dead.
(40:48):
Maybe they're not what they were you know at the height of the Luke and Laura days.
But the fact is they could still put a book on the New York Times bestseller list so that was Oakdale.
So was it Mickey or Bill who came how did this idea come do you remember it was we were all talking about what we were going to do for the 50th which was going to be a major year and my suggestion was because so here's the thing.
(41:15):
PNG owned as the world turns but it aired on CBS and the parent company for CBS also own Simon and Schuster so yes I remember yes we had a meeting with Simon and Schuster yes so it was actually I need a drug up here so long time it was almost 20 years ago.
(41:39):
So we went over there we didn't do it with the editor with Maggie Crawford who was the editor and so yes that went through Mickey and then we did that for 2006 and then it did so well after it had you know hit the New York Times bestseller list that that Christmas they released a special Christmas edition.
(42:08):
Which actually because the first one was released under anonymous because since they the whole mystery was who had written it the real world was anonymous the one that came out for Christmas a special edition which had a new prologue and a new epilogue was by Katie Peretti with Alina Adams.
(42:32):
So even though I did all the work I got the second I got the second billing and yet because you know imaginary people they never carry their share of the work because you know Terry Conn is a real pretty is not so that was the first one that one came out and that one was done the second edition was the Christmas of that year because the anniversary as the world turns is in the spring right there's a time when I could do this off the top of my head I could remember the date of as the world turns but it isn't.
(43:01):
The world turns but it is in the spring and then this was for Christmas and then after that the following year we did the guiding light tie and Jonathan story and that one was different because Oakdale confidential took the real sort of like a real story a mystery and then fictionalized it but used real characters like Katie and Carly and Mattie Coleman.
(43:28):
So that was something that had happened in story was the fact that the book was published but the story in the book was not something that happened on the air it had Craig and it had Sierra and it had the character that had been on back in the like in the 80s it had Ariel so it had all sorts of that this was me basically taking my favorite characters and showing them in there.
(43:55):
But Jonathan story was different our concept for Jonathan story was different because Tom Pelfrey had left the show as Jonathan had left the show and taking his and Lizzie's baby Sarah with him and then Tom came back for a short stint I want to say maybe like a six weeks or something like that and so Jonathan story was different because it was the real story of what had happened to Jonathan while he was in the show.
(44:24):
And then that pulled in Alan and Riva and they were part they had committed a murder off screen and the whole premise was that suddenly Alan and Riva left town to look for Jonathan and then these two characters who on and off hated each other came back and suddenly they were the best of pals and that had something to do with Jonathan and that was the mystery so the concept was very important.
(44:53):
But it was very different because it was actually real as opposed to not real it's like we're working at multiple levels of real here and that it's all pretend but Oakdale confidential was a pretend story about a pretend story and Jonathan story was a real story about a pretend story.
And that 10 times and keep track of that. So that that was a very different concept and that also did very well I think that made the top 10 of the New Year times best cell list and then we did one more tie in book we did the man from Oakdale which was again written by Henry Coleman and the link.
(45:29):
I was going to say it was Henry yeah.
It was the man from Oakdale and that was not something that happened for real but it was actually part of Henry's paranoia of what might happen so yeah they were all very different but and that one won the scribe award and the scribe award is they're given for best tie in book so that book won the international scribe award at Comic Con which is super cool we got to go to Comic Con.
(45:57):
It did I'll show you actually I have the little price somewhere here somewhere on my book in my shelf it's like a cute little trophy.
So that was fun. Where we also went to discuss how Palpatine came back to life she see it in the salt.
Well we did earlier we really haven't had a chance to talk about beyond the gates so you know the news broke last year that CBS the double NAACP and our old boss PNG were going back into this soap business.
(46:32):
I know is that it is that the most like did you have that on your bingo card ever?
Never in a million years what what your reaction? Not only I mean PNG a soap opera a black soap opera all combination with CBS the NAACP and PNG what were your thoughts?
(46:54):
What my first thoughts I think we're like everybody else this is never going to happen this is just I mean how many times have we had just how many times have we heard that all my children is coming back as a series of TV movies or we're going to do this spin off and it never happened so I think my first thought was okay look another development deal I'm happy a writer has a development deal Michelle Valjean is a fabulous writer I'm so happy she has a development deal but no way is this ever going to happen.
(47:20):
And then it happens and then tomorrow Carly and Daphne yeah and not to mention the incredible Susan Dan's be who we both know from as the world turns the street editor there so that that that is a stacked that is a stacked deck also if I may people
Danielle Paige I mean yes yes a ton of people have been stressing the fact that this is the first all let's not all black soap opera.
(47:49):
It's not all black soap opera it's majority black soap opera but here's something that I think really got lost in the shuffle this is the first show to be executive produced and had written by a woman in forever because all four shows up in the air days of our lives just replace their writing team so they now have women writing but for the last almost decade we have had soaps.
(48:13):
I would like to go on the record is saying a women's medium there's a lot of men who are so fans my own husband grew up watching all my children perfectly fine but it was a women's medium was a woman created for women by women for a decade we mostly had male executive producers and male headwriters so I think I'd like to throw into the mix first and for must about beyond the gates is that it's phenomenal that you have women who are both head writer and executive producing and I covered they are the most important thing for me.
(48:42):
I covered they did a red carpet premiere of the beyond the gates at the payley center in New York and I covered that and they put a the executive producer from PNG in front of me their choice.
And so I being me and as you can all tell I'm very shy and retiring and don't like to talk they put her in front of me and I had a microphone and well that was just asking for it.
(49:09):
I said so if this show is a success can we see as the world turns in guiding light back and another world to know throw that in there why not.
It's a very political dancing around an answer but I did ask so for the record I did ask and it's just.
I mean did you watch the week leading up to be on the game with the mistake.
(49:36):
Oh yes.
About you know the longest running show and they showed as the world turns or said as the world turns.
Yes and they could have just qualified it with you know today view on TV or there's ways I mean it should have never made it to air as a mistake coming from CBS and PNG.
(49:58):
Many years for the daytime Emmys as a researcher for the daytime Emmys so you can always make anything sound unique.
You know to the point where this is the first actor with brown eyes wearing a blue suit who has won this award you can always narrow something but what they went with was just so wrong.
That's the word we're looking for wrong but yes I did I did watch that lead up to it and I have been watching beyond the gates but see here's the thing it's beyond the gates is more than beyond the gates.
(50:27):
This show in and of itself is almost the smallest piece of it the biggest part of it is what this means is this going to bring the genre back to life is this going to prove I mean the fact is all the shows have always had a very large black audience.
I just proportionately black audience to the to the population so because here's the thing it's not money and I don't have a problem with that money is a great way to keep score if it's something makes money.
(50:55):
It's going to be on the air no matter how somebody feels about it personally which is beautiful because you can be horribly horribly racist but if you're running a network and a black show is making you money you're going to put a black show on the air like God intended so I'm actually perfectly fine with that so this show it almost like is too much on its shoulders.
(51:16):
Because the problem is if this show doesn't do well people are going to say oh a woman run show don't do well or a black show won't do well when that's not what it means it's not like when a Marvel movie fails at the box office people go well you know moving produced by a white guy we shouldn't make any more of those because those don't make money that doesn't happen so that's beyond the gates is carrying so much on its shoulders that in a way it's terrifying but it's also exciting.
(51:44):
Are you enjoying it? I'm enjoying aspects of it I will be completely honest but I have never watched any show where I have loved every single story.
I think tomorrow is always great. Carla Mosley is actually I think really showing what she can I was she was always fine on other shows she was never bad and you know her stand on the bone the beautiful was certainly very interesting but they're really sort of letting her shine.
(52:12):
You know Daphne I think is finally being able to show what she can do where again she was fine or other shows but again the role she played on passions no one can pull off that role I mean that was.
She's you know I think some of the young cast are really they're getting there because you know Alan you remember we were especially as the world turns went through a period where they hired a lot of young very attractive people of different levels of acting ability but they all work.
(52:41):
Super hard and they improved from episode to episode to episode and there are definitely some young people on beyond the gates where I think like when we see them a year from now they're going to be phenomenal because they are literally improving from episode to episode to episode.
Yeah I agree I mean I I I'm enjoying it Carla I mean tomorrow I mean thank God somebody you know I mean underused on as the world turns for so long I mean it was you well.
(53:16):
But you know this is one of the things I asked her because she was also in that red carpet premier that I covered is that you know the thing with Jessica on as the world turns and with so many minority characters and minority that can work for race and sexuality and religion and everything else they they're putting a box because they have to be good and they have to be perfect and they have to represent because.
(53:40):
Anytime you go a little bit to the side go well that's a very negative connotation you can show a character like that that way so the fact is one of the things I asked tomorrow is you know what brought you back to daytime because you know she's been doing really well I mean what she's on lawn order and she's was in like the feature films with can or even some alpuchino or the devil devil's advocate.
(54:01):
No she's been really great so I asked her what brought you back to daytime and she said it was this part and it was the opportunity for these characters to finally be messy that was the word that was sort of used a lot that night is that they no longer have to be the model minority no matter what minority they are so that is very exciting and that when it's a whole cast then you're going to have good people and bad people just like you doing real life did you know that people of different ethnicities really.
(54:30):
And ethnicities races religion sexuality gender some of them are terrible and some of them are wonderful and most of them are a little bit of both.
Yeah it's it's been fun to watch it really has and you know every soap six months the first six months they're just figure out who they are and this is actually a classic example when you know when I mentioned one of the things that my husband and I talk about sometimes he gets lectures on the history of soap whether he asks for them or not.
(54:59):
And one of the things that I was telling him is okay loving loving premieres in the early 1980s I believe created by Agnes Nixon the woman who created all my children and one life to live in Doug Marland the man who won Emmys for guiding light and as the world turns and all the things so these two phenomenal experience powerhouse soap creators create loveings loving and the first six months are.
(55:27):
If you look at the first six months of loving they had no idea what was going to work half the cast was replaced in the first six months entire characters and story arcs were written out and this is Agnes Nixon and Doug Marland here's another example also lecture I gave my husband when the cold bees premiered as you know love the covees I love the cold but here's the thing so the cold bees premieres created by.
(55:55):
Karen spelling if anybody knows how to make television is there a spelling and Richard and Esther Shapiro who also know what they're doing and they create this show and they cast Charlton Heston and Barbara Stanley and Catherine Ross and this British unknown nobody has ever heard of called Stephanie Beachham and within the first hour of the show Stephanie Beachham the least known member of the cast by the end of that hour is a fan favorite.
(56:23):
And they set up this triangle where Jason Colby Charlton has been married to sayble Colby Stephanie Beachham for an unknown number of years because it's so soon you can never figure out why people are only 10 years younger than the people playing their children and issue beyond the gates needs to work on side note but they claim that Charlton has been in love with Catherine Ross his sister in law the whole time.
(56:47):
And Aaron spelling and Richard and Esther Shapiro make the gamble that because Catherine Ross is familiar to audiences from which Cassidy and the Sundance kid and the graduate people are going to root for Jason to get together with Frankie not realizing what they have on screen with Stephanie Beachham who wins over the fans even though she's the bad person and they play that story out for a year.
(57:15):
As if they believe Jason and Frankie are the rooting couple when they're not and this is Aaron spelling my point being not just that I get passionate about these things but that even incredibly experienced people never know how their stories are going to play until they hit the air and even then they sometimes stubbornly stick to what they think the viewers should want when it's so obvious that the viewers want something else.
(57:38):
Amen to that tell me do you watch other shows currently well I do because I actually I work for soap up which is a site that covers all the shows so I watch the young and the restless and I watch days of our lives and I write about them and I tune into general hospital periodly the only one I do not watch is the bold and the beautiful my apologies to all the people who love the bold and the beautiful I have never been able to get into the bowl in the beautiful I was also a little petty because it replaced capital which I really did like and I was in high school.
(58:07):
And I was in high school at the time and you know when you get when high school you get I really did like capital as well to be honest so yeah bold and beautiful replaced it but that's the only one that I'm aware of what's going on and I certainly know the cast but that's not one that I watch right now what are you liking on what you're watching.
I really put me on the spot there huh let's see the young and the restless is very pretty it has a very nice lighting.
(58:37):
No I actually here's the thing I on the young and the restless I really liked Adam and Sally Mark Rosman and Courtney Hope I really liked that couple I thought guiding light had finally struck gold and they decided to break them up.
You mean young and the restless yeah sorry young the restless yeah sorry they all merge in my head after well yes on the young and the restless young we're so excited to break them up so I don't get it but then I'm not just.
(59:02):
And let's see days days of our lives I can genuinely say the guy who plays EJ I'm not going to try to pronounce his last name Dan for angle that how you pronounce it you think someone was made in a city very not ski would be more respectful of people with.
Names but I think he's fabulous I was just saying to someone the other day he should get all the prizes the guy can do anything he can play drama he can play comedy he can play scenes where he's evil he can play scenes where he's romantic he can play scenes where he loves his mother he can play scenes where he's you know hoping his son will forgive him he's even good with the child actors who plays Rachel he is amazing give him all the awards I have to look him up I have to look him up.
(59:44):
Did you like Colleen and Ray wise together that was fun that was fun and you know I was actually chatting with Colleen on on Facebook messenger and she was saying how after she did her first scene Eric Braggen said to her oh they sent me a pro and I'm like yes Colleen is a pro you know we get we spend time with her and ask the world
(01:00:06):
to put any script in front of her Colleen will make it work yeah I they they they they they did gangbusters with that that was fun and it was fun actually that they did it as a limited run to because with characters like that you can't really let them run too long but it was perfect it was just the right length it wasn't too long it wasn't too short and of course and Ray wise talk about another pro it's actually been fun I think was it a couple of years ago that the Emmys for guest starring performers was one by Ray wise and Donna
(01:00:36):
Mills and I thought how perfect that was because you know Donna Mills did incredible work on not landing during a time period where I mean still true this was a soap ghetto nobody was going to give her a prime time and even though the work she was doing at multiple layers so I think it's soap that she did a guest run on general hospital and wins the Emmy because she deserves a million percent for being Donna Mills.
(01:01:00):
100% 100% before I let you go are you writing the next one well I'm always writing something but right now I'm actually trying something a little bit different because as I mentioned I do I also write a lot about education so my age actually shopping around is an NYC schools murder mystery because you know how I remember the college scandal of a couple of years ago
(01:01:27):
and I'm just going to work that in there but the kind of stuff people do to get their kids to get into college believe it or not in New York City they do that to get their kids into kindergarten and so I love that that's phenomenal that it's a comedic novel about what the New York City school scene is like so that's actually what my agent is currently shopping around so if anybody out there would like to publish a book on that topic.
(01:01:56):
Come to me. I love that well you'll have to come back and we'll have to actually get real moms to join.
Oh that would be actually that would be really fun to get.
It really it really good.
But for now is it's a Lena Adams dot com right?
Yes it's a Lena Adams dot com the book is go on pretending it's available anywhere if your bookstore doesn't have it make the mortar it and if your public library doesn't have it make the mortar it because that's good for me too.
(01:02:25):
And if you enjoy it please write a review on either good reads or on Amazon or wherever you do it and my social media is on Instagram is I am a Lena Adams and you can actually find me on Facebook as a Lena Severinocky with them if that's too hard to spell there's also a Lena Adams media so I'm.
Patrick Irwin said a Lena should be ahead of daytime for one of the networks lots of ideas.
(01:02:53):
Patrick thank you thank you so much Patrick thank you for coming and thank you everybody who who tuned into night I really appreciate this has been super fun I haven't talked so upset anyone but my husband for a long time so it's nice to get to.
Say hello to your husband and thank you for doing this and keep up the great work.
Alina so good to see you my friend.
Thank you so much thank you for having me.
(01:03:15):
Thanks everybody for tuning in thank you to author Alina Adams for spending the hour her brand new historical novel go on pretending is available where all books are sold.
If you haven't yet subscribed to my YouTube channel you can do so down below if you like today's episode please click the like button it always helps and if you like to stream audio versions just search the locker room on your favorite podcast app.
(01:03:39):
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