Trump, Dominionism, and the Quest for a Modern Messiah: A Discussion With Holly Pivec

What is the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) really about? Behind the revivals, “apostles,” and “prophets” is a dangerous teaching called I’m joined by Holly Pivec—author, researcher, and host of a brand-new podcast. We spend a large part of this conversation talking about her new show: why she launched it, what topics she’s covering, and how she’s helping Christians discern the truth about the NAR's Kingdom Now theology. This belief system fuels the 7 Mountains Mandate, the idea that Christians must take control of government, media, education, and more to establish God’s kingdom on earth.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the Long for Truth podcast. I'm Robin Long.
Join my husband Dan and I as we explore the
roots of the early Pentecostal and charismatic movements, and we
shine a light on false doctrines and false teachers in
the modern church. Let's get started.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
I see a vision of President Donald Trump, and I
see the Lord wrapping a new mantle around him even
now Shoku bashi oh sharramash de Brotada. And I see
angels standing to his right and to his left a
ramsh de shar rams Shakata. And the Lord would say,

(00:43):
I have indeed called Donald Trump for such a time
as this, for the nations. We're teetering on the edge
of war here there left right. The Lord says, we
were on the brink of destruction. And the general public says,
Lord had no idea how bad things were. But I

(01:06):
have called him to rise. I have called him to
drop a plumb line of righteousness. I have called him
not because he's perfect, says the Lord. I am perfecting him,
says the Lord. I have not called him because he's
smart or because he's wealthy. I called him, says the Lord,
for because he was willing. He was willing to step in.
He was willing to make the sacrifice for a country

(01:29):
he loves, says the Lord. And although many despise him,
I love him, says the Lord. And I have indeed
called him and mantled him, and I will speak to
him in dreams and visions. So do not worry if
your leader will be led astray, for I will lead him,
says the Lord. Merely pray that he would hear my
voice clearly amid all the chaos and confusion among all

(01:53):
the witches praying against him. Look and see at the
man that I have sent over this nation for such
a time as this, says the Lord.

Speaker 3 (02:04):
And I speak of Donald Trump, says a living God.

Speaker 4 (02:08):
He has prayed, he has spoke to me.

Speaker 3 (02:12):
Yet man have despised him, and they have looked to
indict him, and some who bear my name say, we
cannot choose him. The Spirit of God says, because you
have not been walking with him, you have not heard
his prayers, and you have not known his heart. But I,
the Lord, God knows his heart, and I have anointed

(02:34):
him at this time, So God says, you watch what
I do to shape the earth.

Speaker 4 (02:40):
You watch what I do.

Speaker 3 (02:42):
To scatter the enemy, and I will cause there to
be something new that shall arise at this time, for
I take away the old, that I may establish the new. Therefore,
I will cause your house called White to be known
as a lighthouse, and it shall shine out throughout the
United States, and it'll sign out throughout the earth, and

(03:05):
you will see that I have put my hand upon
this country, and I am honoring the covenants of ancient
times and of the fathers who know before me, and
coming in to themselves.

Speaker 5 (03:18):
To their holly. Thank you so much for coming on today.
This is like video number four. I think we've done.
We've done together, and yeah, yeah.

Speaker 6 (03:28):
Having me back on Daniel, I always enjoy it.

Speaker 5 (03:31):
I always enjoyed it as well. We're gonna be talking
about a number of things. We're gonna talk about your
new podcast. We're gonna talk about, of course, the NAR,
that's why you're coming on here. And we're gonna be
talking about this whole seven Mountain mandate government mandate with Trump,
and there's just a lot of really interesting stuff going

(03:53):
on with the NAR and Trump, wouldn't.

Speaker 6 (03:56):
You think, Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Speaker 5 (03:59):
All right, let's go ahead and talk about your podcast
now before we even get to that. I do have
a question. You've done four books with Doug Givett. Do
you guys have any writing plans in the future. Are
you writing anything new or you.

Speaker 7 (04:15):
Know, talking about We definitely we have some ideas and yeah,
and I'm I'm slowly working on one in the background,
but it's slow because i'm, you know, doing my podcasts
and other things.

Speaker 5 (04:28):
Yeah, okay, all right, Well what about your podcast now?
You I've watched several of your videos and I have
really really enjoyed them, especially the Hearing God series that
you're doing. We'll talk about that in a minute. But
why did you decide to start the podcast that you're
doing now? Because I know you had a YouTube channel.

(04:49):
You had a YouTube channel and you had you you
were taking clips from you know, other videos that you've done.
But why the podcasts?

Speaker 7 (04:57):
Yeah, because I really saw a real need to teach
people how to be more spiritually discerning. There's just a
spiritual discernment is in dangerously low supply, as you know,
and I would have people coming to me all the
time asking questions, and a lot of the questions were similar,

(05:19):
and I just started thinking that it could be really
helpful for people for there to be a podcast to
equip them to answer those questions and to learn to
be more spiritually discerning.

Speaker 5 (05:33):
Good Good, Now, talk about you have what you call
a too pronged approach when it comes to discernment, and
I really like that a lot. But why don't you
tell our guests what that too ProMED approach is? Explain
that to us.

Speaker 6 (05:50):
Great.

Speaker 7 (05:51):
So, a lot of times, you know, when people are
approaching an issue and trying to discern whether tea is
sound or not, whether it's safe or not, spiritually safe
or not, you know a lot of times.

Speaker 6 (06:08):
People will approach it with a first.

Speaker 7 (06:10):
Prong, which is to evaluate that teaching or that teacher,
that book, or whatever by scripture. And that's the first prong.
That's a very important prong when we when we tried
to discern something spiritually that we we evaluate that teaching
by scripture. And so the first prong I talked about

(06:31):
in my podcast is the skillful use of scripture to.

Speaker 6 (06:34):
Evaluate any teaching we encounter.

Speaker 7 (06:37):
The second prong, though, is often overlooked, and that's careful reasoning.
So that's evaluating a teaching to see whether the argumentation
is sound, whether it has evidence to support that teaching,
whether it's it holds logically and so this is often overlooked.

(06:59):
But people, you know, many people in the church maybe
are a little suspicious of using the mind and the
intellect to evaluate teachings because it's often disparaged in Christian circles.

Speaker 6 (07:14):
And but God gave us.

Speaker 7 (07:16):
Our minds and he intended for us to use them,
and scripture itself teaches that, you know, models that we
should be using our mind to evaluate teachings and and
to see if the you know, there's evidence to support
those teachings and if they hold there, if they're logically sound.
And so my podcast aims to help people spot logical

(07:37):
fallacies that are commonly used by false teachers to promote
their teachings and and just to evaluate the the evidence
and see if there's evidence to support teaching. So the
two prongs are the skillful use of scripture and careful reasoning.

Speaker 5 (07:54):
Yeah, yeah, that that is that is uh, that's really good.
Now you're talking about logical fallacies here, so it just
question pops into my mind, of course. So what would
be an example, let's say, of a logical fallacy that
a false teacher might give and you know something that
you would use the second prong, which is the prong

(08:18):
of reason. What would be an example of that.

Speaker 6 (08:21):
Yeah, that's a great question.

Speaker 7 (08:22):
So one common logical fallacy is known as an ad
hominin or that's Latin. But it's about attacking, attacking the man,
attacking the person, or put more simply, it's like name
calling and so many times false teachers instead of when
someone critiques their teachings or you know, challenges them them

(08:45):
on their teachings using argumentation and evidence, and they just
respond and say and.

Speaker 6 (08:52):
Call them a bad name.

Speaker 7 (08:53):
And so I'm sure you're well aware of this, like
our leaders will often talk, you know, respond to arguments
against their teaching by saying, oh, well, that's just because.

Speaker 6 (09:03):
You have a Jezebel spirit.

Speaker 8 (09:05):
So when I look at these comments sections and these
heresy hunters and these bloggers and these Facebook groups, well
I see a demonic influence over that.

Speaker 9 (09:14):
And this is what I'm trying to educate you.

Speaker 8 (09:16):
Some of you need to share this video with multiple
friends right now so we can educate the Body of Christ.

Speaker 9 (09:22):
Let me tell you why I see.

Speaker 8 (09:23):
A demonic influence though, because these are ancient spirits in
new days.

Speaker 9 (09:28):
But they have the same playbook.

Speaker 8 (09:30):
And so just like Jezebel wrote letters against Naboth and
had the nobles write those letters to assassinate his character,
then eventually it turned into a physical assassination. That spirit
of Jezebel and Ahab is still in the earth today
and is still trying to do that.

Speaker 7 (09:46):
They'll say, you know that you have a demonic spirit,
or that's just because you know you're a deist you
don't really believe that God is active in the world today,
are or they'll say you're a cessationist, or just all
kinds of labels they'll try to put on people rather

(10:07):
than responding to the actual arguments.

Speaker 5 (10:10):
Yeah. Yeah, so these are really nothing more than thought
stopping devices, right, They're they're trying to they're trying to
you know, put up get condition their people not to
listen to, you know, critiques of their arguments or anything
like that. So that kind of borderlines spiritual abuse, I think.

(10:33):
I mean I could be wrong, but that to me
borderline spiritual abuse.

Speaker 6 (10:37):
You know, right, I absolutely agree with you.

Speaker 7 (10:40):
And yeah, and you know there's you know, whether someone
agrees with Cessationianism or not, you know, would not be
the issue when you're talking about something like nar the
issue is are there governing offices of apostle and profit today?

Speaker 6 (10:56):
You know these these teachings and so.

Speaker 7 (10:58):
But often what people and this movement will do is
they'll try to distract the issue and make it about
things it's not really about, like, for example, Cessationianisms.

Speaker 10 (11:09):
And there are many in the Body of Christ who
are cessationists, and cessationist means they believe when the last
apostle died that God doesn't move anymore by a spirit,
there are more miracles, God doesn't speak. I heard someone
say it's the closest to christian you get to atheism.

Speaker 7 (11:23):
So that really could be a red herring too, which
which is a fallacy. It's like to throw people off
the arguments and get them talking about something else that
isn't the main issue.

Speaker 5 (11:36):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, wow. A lot of that, a lot
of spiritual abuse going on, a lot of I see
that all the time, and I get and I know,
you get emails, we get Robin and I get emails
all the time of people who have left the movement
and who have you just been you know, shut down
Whenever they'd bring problems up that they see in the church,
or if they have a question even you know that

(11:58):
maybe they're looking at a passage that the pastor's speaking
from and they look at the context and say, this
doesn't sound like what the Bible says, and they bring
it to the pastor and they get shut down. So
I mean that that's yeah, that that's exactly what what
what I see as well.

Speaker 7 (12:17):
Yeah, so just what I mentioned, I sorry, I just
mentioned about deis. You know, that's a common one I
hear because they'll say, well, if you don't believe that
God is working through these apostles and prophets and giving
these new revelations and that God's not speaking to people
about every single thing matter in their everyday life, every
day normatively, normatively, then that.

Speaker 6 (12:39):
Means that you're a deist.

Speaker 7 (12:40):
That means you just think God is kind of up
there and set the world in motion and he's not
personally involved with his people, you know, he doesn't interact
at all in their lives and that and that's another
you know, that's why I said that's a ad hominin
because it doesn't mean that at all if you question
their beliefs, but they that's one that they often will use.

Speaker 5 (13:03):
Yeah, or they'll say, you say that you know you
you don't believe that the Apostolic sign gifts are still
you know, active today. They'll they'll say, oh, so you
don't believe that in miracles, you don't believe uh and
that the Holy Spirit uh still speaks today or whatever.
When we do believe that the Holy Spirit speaks, we

(13:23):
believe that he speaks through his word, which leads us
into the next UH point. Because you have a series
on your podcast called Hearing the Voice of God, and
you use Pete greg in his book Hearing Hearing God's Voice.
What actually, what's the name of his book? Is it
called Hearing God's Voice?

Speaker 6 (13:44):
It's how how to Hear God as simple guide for
normal people?

Speaker 5 (13:48):
Gotcha? Gotcha?

Speaker 4 (13:49):
Well?

Speaker 5 (13:49):
And you also mentioned you've got some others like Henry
Blackaby and some others you're going to be critiquing as well.
What made you start with Pete Greg?

Speaker 7 (13:58):
Well, so, yes, And just to give a little background
about hearing God's Voice, you know, this is a popular
teaching in the church, a popular set of teachings in
the church that every Christian, every believer is supposed to
be hearing God speak every day, like normably in their
daily lives and outside of scripture and in order to

(14:22):
give believers guidance, direction, comfort, you know, this kind of thing.
And so these are very popular teachings in the church,
and they're promoted across the theological spectrum by many people.
So this could be people a nar this could be
more classical charismatics or Pentecostals, historic charismatics, or classical Pentecostals,

(14:44):
even many evangelicals.

Speaker 6 (14:46):
Promote these teachings.

Speaker 7 (14:48):
And so one thing I tried to be very clear on,
and Doug and I have always been really clear on
when we critique nar is that we're not critiquing his
classical Pentecostal or historic charismatic teachings. That's true of nar Uh,
and that's also true with my series on Hearing God's Voice.
The teachings that I'm critiquing these are not teachings that

(15:10):
have historically been held by Pentecostals or charismatics. They're much
more extreme teachings, but they're becoming mainstreamed in you know,
many churches, Pentecostal, charismatic, even evangelical churches. And so that's
just a point of clarification that I like to make
because many people will say, well, you're just being anti Pentecostal,

(15:32):
You're just being anti charismatic, and I'm saying, no, it's
it's these these teachings are something different. They're not the
historic Pentecostal or charismatic teachings. But the reason I chose
Pete Greg was just simply because he's a very influential
author who promotes teachings about hearing God's voice. He's in

(15:53):
the UK, and many people have thanked me for addressing
him because he hasn't you know. I looked around online
and I just didn't see I couldn't really find a
critical response to his book, How to Hear God, and
so I thought there needed to be one. But he's
very popular, very influential, and many people will often view

(16:13):
him as less extreme because of his influence, because his
book receives endorsements by popular Christian leaders and things like that.
So many people might view Pete Greg as safer than say,
like Bill Johnson or someone like that, like anar apostle.

Speaker 6 (16:31):
But I take some.

Speaker 11 (16:35):
Encouragement from the founder himself of the twenty four to
seventh Prayer Movement, Pete Greg.

Speaker 6 (16:43):
I was reading from this book how to Pray by
Pete Greg who's a great prayer leader.

Speaker 11 (16:48):
You know, we've been in this series called Teach Us
to Pray, and we've been working through a prayer model
from the book how to Pray by Pete Greg.

Speaker 5 (16:58):
Just on Friday. Friend of us, Pete Greg, he heads
up twenty four to seven Prime Movement.

Speaker 6 (17:03):
He contacted us with the prophetic word he had for us.

Speaker 7 (17:07):
And so that's another reason I chose to focus on
him and to show people just how extreme his teachings
are and then to evaluate them with the two prongs
of scripture and careful reasoning.

Speaker 5 (17:20):
Yeah, you know you were. You mentioned that it's not
just in Pentecostal and charismatic churches. I was actually in
a Baptist church and our pastor years ago took us
through experiencing God with Henry Blackaby, and we went through
that like three or four times. I think, you know,
I can't. Yeah, I still remember, just from going through

(17:42):
it so so often. So I was taught the same way,
and I talk about this in another video. I did
an entire video on this. But I left my family
for a year and a half to go into a
ministry that I was never called to because I thought
I was hearing God's war, so I thought God was
speaking to me and telling me. And Robin was like, yeah,

(18:04):
this doesn't match up, this doesn't work, this isn't right.
And I because I thought I was hearing God's voice
and I was the man of the family that I was,
this is what we should be doing. And so when
she didn't go, I left. So that's the danger. This
is why this kind of topic is really my passion
because I I know firsthand how destructive it can be. Now,

(18:27):
we're not saying God can't speak. We all with Robin
and I always say we're not saying God can't speak
outside of scripture. He can do whatever he wants to do.
But the primary way he does, and the way that
we know objectively that it is God speaking, is through scripture.
Instead of weighing through all of this muck in our
heart to find out, you know, let's see what what

(18:48):
what was it?

Speaker 4 (18:50):
God?

Speaker 9 (18:50):
Was it?

Speaker 12 (18:50):
Me?

Speaker 5 (18:51):
Was it the day?

Speaker 13 (18:52):
You know?

Speaker 5 (18:52):
We can just we can just open up scripture and
we can we can do that, but you're right, it's
it's infiltrated. Probably man, so many churches that are outside
the charismatic stream, you know, Yeah.

Speaker 7 (19:05):
Yeah, absolutely, And you know, they're very popular teachings, but
they're seldom questioned.

Speaker 6 (19:13):
You know, it's just kind.

Speaker 7 (19:14):
Of accepted that, Oh well, of course you would expect
God to if you're going to think about a job
change or a move or marrying someone or something like that.
You know, of course you should expect God to speak
to you personally about that to let you know if
that's his will or not. And so so it's just
a matter of looking at the books and some of

(19:36):
the most popular teachers in their books and evaluating them
and seeing what their arguments are, and looking at their
use of scripture and seeing if the scriptures are pointing
to support their teachings actually have the support of scripture.

Speaker 5 (19:49):
Yeah, you talk about in one of your episodes on
Pete Greg you talk about this kind of genie in
the bottle interpretation of scripture. Don't you walk us through that?

Speaker 6 (20:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (20:03):
So many people, many Christians, have gotten the idea that
you could just ask a question about something like, you know,
should I move, should I switch jobs?

Speaker 6 (20:16):
Should I marry this person?

Speaker 7 (20:18):
And then any question you can think of, and then
you just open up your Bible at random and whatever
verse your from your lands On. You read that verse
and you see if it will answer your question. You
view that as personal divine guidance from God and Pete
Greg I show how Pete Greg actually promotes that kind

(20:39):
of approach to reading scripture in his book How to
Hear God, and I explain how.

Speaker 6 (20:46):
You know, he kind of he he talks.

Speaker 7 (20:49):
Out of really both sides of his mouth because he
says it's really important to read scripture in context and
it's dangerous to take scripture out of context. And I
show how he says that, but then he turns around
and promote it's exactly that kind of approach to scripture,
and it's actually very dangerous because you know, as you
said with how that Hearing God's Voice teaching through UF track,

(21:12):
you know, people can do that and they can think
that they received some kind of divine guidance that way,
but they're just taking verses completely out of context and
God hasn't spoke to them in that way. But then
they can make life decisions, you know. And it's also
just it's very presumptuous when people do that, to assume

(21:33):
that God will speak to them on demand in that way.
It's actually a form of divination, which is explicitly condemned
in scripture, like in Deuteronomy eighteen. It's a form of divination.
And interestingly, there's a term called bibliomancy for this approach.

(21:54):
I actually learned this just yesterday. I stumbled across an
article online where someone was promoting bibliomancy and they weren't
a Christian at all, and they were just promoting taking any.

Speaker 6 (22:05):
Book off of your shelf.

Speaker 7 (22:07):
It could be mobi, dick, you know, it could be
any book you find and just asking a question and
opening it up at random and looking for an answer.

Speaker 6 (22:14):
And so so there are quite a few people that.

Speaker 7 (22:17):
You can find online you aren't even Christian, promoting this practice.
But often they'll say, well, you can use the Bible too,
If that's the book that you know you want to use,
that's a good book to use.

Speaker 6 (22:27):
As well.

Speaker 14 (22:28):
As long as I can remember, I have used books
that I have read for divination purposes. Now I might
be a little behind in the game here, but just
last night I found out that there's an actual word
for that, and that word is biblio bibliomassy. Wait, bibliomancy, Yeah, bibliomancy.

(22:57):
I think that's how you say it, correct me if
I'm wrong. So bibliomancy is actually an ancient art of
divination through divining with books.

Speaker 9 (23:10):
It is.

Speaker 14 (23:11):
And of course before I let you guys go, I'll
just show you quickly how to use a bible for bibliomancy.

Speaker 6 (23:19):
Let me just grab it.

Speaker 14 (23:20):
Real quick, so I have my Bible, and all you
have to do to make this work is if you
have a question in mind or a topic in mind,
simply close your eyes, hold your book, take some deep
cleansing breaths. I like to do that, of course, with

(23:42):
my eyes closed, because I like to just center myself
in mind and body and spirit. After you've taken some
deep breaths, you can also expand your light. I love
doing that every time, and then simply close your eyes,
open the book, take your finger and stop it where

(24:03):
you fit.

Speaker 6 (24:04):
So it really is a form of divination.

Speaker 5 (24:08):
I have never heard that term either. That is really
wild that that you could take. So they're saying like
you could take any book off the shelf, even if
it's non Christian, and use it kind of like like
like you would a Ouiji board, where you're asking it
a question and it's supposed to give you some kind
of Wow, that is really dangerous. And I call it

(24:31):
the eight ball effect. You ever seen those eight balls
you buy? You know, you ask it a question, you
shake it up, and you because I used to, That's
what how I used to do scripture. I look, no joke.
So I would I would pray about like like you
were talking about, like maybe some kind of decision, some
kind of financial decision or something like that. And I
would pray and then I would say, all right, lord,

(24:53):
just just just show me. I mean, no joke, and
I would pop the Bible open and I kind of
laugh about it now. I mean it was very immature.
I was a new Christian, but even after I've been
saved for a few years, I was never taught proper
biblical interpretation, how how to really read the Bible.

Speaker 9 (25:13):
You know.

Speaker 5 (25:13):
It was just yeah, so wow, that's a really interesting
go ahead.

Speaker 7 (25:19):
Yeah, no, I'm sorry to interrupt it, just say, yeah,
you know, many Christians haven't haven't weren't taught how to
properly read the Bible, and so yeah, it's in fact
many you know. I was at Biola University and in
the seminary there Talbot School of Theology, uh, where my
husband went and I can say that that many of

(25:39):
us who went to Bible college and seminary and things
like that, the first time we ever were exposed to hermeneutics,
the principles for proper, you know, sound, proper Biblical interpretation
was when we went to Bible college or university, you know,
Christian university or a seminary. And that's kind of shocking
to me that and then think about many people don't

(26:02):
go to a Christian university or Christian college or seminary,
and so how many people are never taught the principles
of sound Biblical interpretation?

Speaker 6 (26:13):
Startling?

Speaker 5 (26:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, most people. I've never told anybody this really,
but I went to for one semester, I went to
a Bible college in Portsmouth, Virginia. This is probably two
thousand and two, maybe two thousand and three, for one class,
and that was how to interpret the Bible. And it

(26:38):
was it's called Angelos Bible, Angelos Bible College, and this
is how I was taught to interpret the Bible. Look
at the current events, get a concordances. Every single person
asked the class, well, I was in there for I
don't know six weeks or something like that. We were
just taught how to use a concordance and we were

(26:59):
given a sign. It's like, okay, look at the daily
news and then you know, what is the what does
the Bible say about? And I'm like, wow, that's how
I you know, that's how a lot of people are taught.
You know, you're not taught to read the scriptures in context.
You're taught to, you know, just take it, take a
concordance and you know, and open it up or even

(27:20):
like I I did, and you talk about in your
podcast this Genie effect or this Apall effect, that that's
how people are taught, you know.

Speaker 7 (27:28):
So yeah, yeah, And that's a good point that even
just going to a Bible college or something doesn't guarantee
you're being taught properly, you know, how how to read scripture.

Speaker 6 (27:38):
It's you have to be careful with that.

Speaker 7 (27:41):
And and people don't have to go to a Bible
college or a university or something like that to learn hermeneutics.
That's something, honestly that all churches should be teaching their people.
But also if their church isn't teaching them that something people.

Speaker 6 (27:56):
Can learn on their own.

Speaker 7 (27:57):
You know, there are a lot of great resources out
there for learning how to to read the Bible properly
in context.

Speaker 5 (28:04):
Yeah, yeah, all right, we're gonna switch gears now we're
going to talk about the nar and Donald Trump. And
to set the stage, we have to talk about dominionism.
We have to talk about the Seven Mountain Mandate, we
have to talk about the Gospel of the Kingdom. I
think all of those kind of play into this. So

(28:25):
what And I've talked about dominion here. I've had Jake
Elliott on the show with me and we did an
entire episode on dominionism. But we've had you know, it's
still it's it's still important to see how it all
ties into this to what's going on in politics right now.
I mean, cheon running for governor of California. These guys

(28:49):
have a personal agenda, you know, they they they're this
whole seven Mountain mandate teaching the mountain of government that is,
that's huge. So why don't you explain to us what
dominionism is And let's talk about that the seven Mountain mandate,
and we'll use your two pronged effect. We'll do this
by watching a couple of Johnny Enlow clips, well a

(29:10):
few Johnny Enlow clips and because Johnny Enlow is big
in this, he's probably goes a little further than see
Peter Wagner would have gone. I think have you noticed
that at all about Johnny Enlow? He kind of takes
kind of takes some liberties with the scripture more than
see Peter Wagner did, especially with the whole time travel

(29:32):
and all that. You know, But have you noticed about
Johnny Enlow at all any You know, maybe Jennifer Leclair
is a little out there like in Low too, but uh,
she kind of reminds me of him. But have you
noticed that about Johnny and Loow? But yeah, he's definitely
out there.

Speaker 6 (29:52):
He's definitely way out there. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (29:55):
Yeah, Well, let's watch the first clip. This is him explaining, well,
he's talking about dominionism. So I'll get you to check
this out and then we'll use your two pronged effect
on this clip. So here we go.

Speaker 11 (30:08):
So we understand that in the garden they lost their position.
And I ask you something that may seem obvious, but
do you believe Adam and Eve are in heaven? Yes,
So Adam and Eve did not lose salvation by being
cast out of the garden. What they lost was authority,

(30:31):
this privileged position of let man have dominion over everything.
The initial plan, the original plan of God, is that
he would make that the family of Heaven would be
in unity with the family on earth, and out of
this union and communion there would be order and they
would have dominion over all things.

Speaker 4 (30:49):
Here in society.

Speaker 11 (30:51):
And yet the moment they felt the right to eat
of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil,
and that was the agreement says just don't eat that
one treat, the fruit of that one treat, they were
cast out. From that moment forward, we lost authority, authority
specifically these seven areas, these seven mountains of society that

(31:12):
we're talking about.

Speaker 5 (31:13):
All right, So Adam lost authority. He was given authority,
and you know, some of these words of faith guys
would even say he had the status of a little God.
But I don't. I don't know if Johnny Andelow teaches
that or not. But he did lose his authority. So
what are your thoughts on that clip?

Speaker 7 (31:32):
Yeah, So in Nor, it's it's a very common teaching
that that Adam lost his dominion. You know, when when
he and evesend in the garden and in Nor that
they they view that dominion as uh uh governing you know,

(31:55):
like you mentioned uh, I think the seven mountains right there,
that it was a minion that God gave to Adam
to govern society, and and that what they'll say is
that Adam lost that. But then when Christ Christ work
on the cross, what it accomplished in addition to the

(32:18):
ability to have sin forgiven what it what it accomplished,
what was most significant really was that it gave the
church the ability to take back that dominion. And so
innar they would say, it's the task of the church
now to to take dominion of the earth. And so really, uh,

(32:39):
you know, in in Low teaches that it's a dominion
over society, so it's not you know, many would say, well,
there was a dominion over nature and animals that was
given there, but in now they go beyond that and
they say it's it's like a socio political control and
societal dominion. And then in Low also teaches is that

(33:01):
the dominion extends over the demonic realm as well. I
saw that elsewhere where. He he promotes that particular teaching
or suggests that, and so he says, like the dominion
over every creeping thing or something like that would would
include demons. It would seem like he says, So that's
an example of how you said. His teachings are just

(33:21):
way out there, right.

Speaker 5 (33:22):
They take a lot of liberty, really has a lot
of liberty, don't they. It's just like you're just going, wow,
it's nowhere in scripture. Does this even come close to
what they're talking about some of the things. Anyway, go ahead,
I'm sorry I interrupted you.

Speaker 7 (33:39):
Yeah, So, I just want to say so dominionism, there's
really two varieties of dominionism. There's the reconstructionists, where the
more it's the more reformed variety of dominionism, and they
teach that it's the job of the church to take
dominion of the earth or socio political control, but the
way they believe that will be done is like through
education and politics. And and then there's the kingdom now

(34:01):
variety of dominionism, which is what our leaders are and
like what inlo Is and that's the idea that the
way to take dominion of the earth is under the
authority of the nar apostles and prophets who are giving
the new revelations the strategies that have the miraculous powers
to work the signs and wonders that are needed to
bring God's kingdom to earth. So they're avirant teachings. But

(34:25):
those are the two different varieties of it.

Speaker 5 (34:28):
So in this next clip, we're going to be looking
at him talking about these seven mountain mandates mandate and
what he is going to claim. We're talking about him
taking liberty with scripture and his teaching being out there.
He talks about the seven mountains actually being in heaven.

(34:49):
So check this out.

Speaker 11 (34:50):
Believe there are seven foundations of power. I believe from
that time forward there was legal right and legal authority
for Satan to distort the face of God. We want
to understand that these seven areas of society, these seven mountains,
the seven sectors of society, are things that exist in heaven.
They're not just things that exist here. When we talk

(35:12):
of government, there is government in heaven. You all understand
that he's still king up there. He's benevolent, he runs
it right. But government is good when it's run right,
and there is provision in heaven. He continues to amaze
us with his provision in heaven.

Speaker 9 (35:27):
That would be the.

Speaker 11 (35:27):
Mountain of economy. There is great creativity. We will continue
to see creativity in heaven the mountain of celebration, arts
and entertainment. There is good news. There's continual giving of
testimonies and singing and good news reports in heaven taking place.
It's an important aspect of how Heaven is run.

Speaker 5 (35:47):
So seven mountains are in heaven and it actually kind
of sounds a lot like Bill Johnson and his bringing
Heaven to Earth. You got to bring down you know
what's in heaven, what is it from the Lord prayer
on I will be done on Earth as it is
in Heaven and bringing Heaven to Earth. That's kind of
what it sounds like, am I right?

Speaker 13 (36:08):
Yeah?

Speaker 6 (36:08):
Absolutely?

Speaker 7 (36:09):
I mean Bill Johnson and Bethel leaders talk about pulling
that you have to pull Heaven down to Earth and
that that apostles are receiving blueprints. They're looking into heaven
and seeing what's in heaven, the structure of heaven, and
then they're they're bringing that down and then you know,

(36:29):
recreating that building that on Earth. So that's very much
sounds like Bethel and Bill Johnson teaching.

Speaker 5 (36:36):
Yeah, and he he was he was talking about, uh,
the seven mountains in heaven. Did did see Peter Wagner
or any of these others other than Bill Johnson did
did they mention anything like that or is that just
a kind of a a Johnny Enloath thing. Have you
ever heard that before?

Speaker 6 (36:56):
The doctrine?

Speaker 7 (36:57):
You know, the theology has evolved since Peter p Peter
Wagner was around, and so you know there's these these
new spins and ways they say it.

Speaker 6 (37:06):
But you know, it's very the idea that.

Speaker 7 (37:09):
The seven Mountains are in heaven and all all of
what he described going on in heaven is it doesn't
it's unbiblical, it doesn't have the support of scripture, and
you know, it's very confused. I mean, he seems to
be confusing. You know, heaven is the temporary abode of
deceased believers while they're awaiting the resurrection of their bodies,

(37:31):
and so he seems to be confusing. You know, this heaven,
this temporary abode of deceased believers with the eternal state.
You know, we talked about this my recent guest on
my podcast, Alan Gomes. Doctor Ellen Gomes wrote a book
called Forty Questions about Heaven and Hell, and I just
interviewed him and he you know, he was he talks

(37:52):
and he'll be talking in future episodes as well, because
it's a multi part series. I did an interview with
him that's multipart. But he he talks about this very
confused notion that many Christians really kind of confuse heaven
with the eternal stay, and that just there's just a
lot of mistaken thinking on the subject, but particularly innr

(38:13):
you know, they really mess that up.

Speaker 5 (38:16):
Yeah, that's good, good episode there. So this next clip,
this is the one that he talks about a legal document.
So John is having his vision in Revelation and he's
seeing the Angel in Revelation chapter five, and there's this
legal document that the angel has and so listen, listen

(38:39):
to what he says here and you can comment on
that as well. Here we go in.

Speaker 11 (38:44):
Verse one of chapter five, and I saw in the
right hand of him who sat on the throne, a
scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals.
Then I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice,
who who is worthy to open the scroll and to
loose it seals?

Speaker 4 (39:04):
And no one in heaven or on the.

Speaker 11 (39:06):
Earth or under the earth was able to open the
scroll or to look at it.

Speaker 4 (39:12):
So John sees this thing.

Speaker 11 (39:14):
He goes he's in heaven and there's all this incredible
stuff taking place and action, lights, camera and color, sounds, smells, everything.

Speaker 4 (39:22):
But Papa is sitting.

Speaker 11 (39:24):
On a throne and in his hand he has held
out this scroll and this scroll is a legal document,
and there is a loud angel, not just an angel,
by the way, we have this situation in the midst
of all this other there is an angel with a.

Speaker 4 (39:39):
Loud voice saying, who.

Speaker 11 (39:41):
Is worthy to get us back to the authority that
was lost on earth?

Speaker 4 (39:49):
That's what's being said there.

Speaker 5 (39:51):
So I mean that Papa's there and he's got it su.

Speaker 1 (40:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (40:00):
I caught him say Papa too. That's actually common in Nar.
It's common for naro oh okay, yeah.

Speaker 6 (40:06):
To refer to God as Papa.

Speaker 7 (40:08):
So that's kind of a something that that might be
a clue that someone is nor if they're using that
kind of I think over familiar you know language, uh yeah,
with God.

Speaker 9 (40:19):
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (40:20):
So but he's got this, he's got this legal The
angel's got this legal document and he's reading in the scripture.
Because it doesn't say who will take back authority? I mean,
it's who's worthy to open the scroll? You know and
but but he he he slips that right in there.
Do you have any thoughts about that?

Speaker 6 (40:41):
Yeah, Well, that's what they do is there's not scripture
to support the teachings that you know that Adam lost
dominion or that you know that there's the whole dominionism
teaching that there's just not scriptures to support that. So
what they do is they cherry pick versus throughout the
Bible that they use that they'll point to to, you know,

(41:03):
to use and support of those teachings. But the whole idea.

Speaker 7 (41:06):
That God somehow, you know, lost control of the universe
because of you know, Adam's fall and all of that,
these teachings, these dominion is teachings really lower God. They
lower God's power and they they elevate humankind's power because
they're essentially saying that God needs the Church now to

(41:29):
reclaim this dominion and set up his kingdom on earth,
and he's waiting for the Church to do that so
that he can return. So there there are a lot
of dangers with these teachings.

Speaker 5 (41:40):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I've got a bonus clip here that
I may throw in later. I won't bring you the
pain of watching this. This but he's he's talking about
time travel, and that John went through time too, and
that's that's why he was weeping. If you remember in Revelation,
in chapter five, John was weeping because there was nobody

(42:02):
worthy to open the scroll. And the reason he was
weeping is because he was using time travel. He was
going back to time and seeing biblical characters like David
and Adam and every everybody else. And then he even
went into the future.

Speaker 6 (42:17):
It was quite smart. I watched it. It was quite bizarre.

Speaker 11 (42:23):
And so John says that he looks and he looks,
and he's in his time travel. He's been taken back
to the garden and after the garden, and that no
one in heaven or on the earth or under the
earth was able to open the scroll.

Speaker 4 (42:40):
He's going through time travel.

Speaker 11 (42:42):
And he began seeing these men of God, whether it's
Moses or Abraham, Joseph, and these are incredible men of God,
you know, Moses, the meekest man on earth. And he's like,
he's hoping this guy can do it, he can pull
it off, he can pay the price so that authority
can be regained.

Speaker 4 (43:01):
That he can't be. They all their sin and every
one of their lives.

Speaker 11 (43:03):
He keeps moving forward in history gets you know, David
the man after God's heart, but we know David had
some problems and issues. His blood was not righteous enough
to pay the price. And so it just keeps moving on.
It goes through the prophets.

Speaker 4 (43:16):
You know, there's.

Speaker 11 (43:17):
Neemiah, n there's Elijah, and there's Elisha. In these Isaiah
and he's just man and man after God after man
after God, and nobody is worthy. You know, John's seeing
all this in his time travel when it says and
he looked under the earth, I believe he was able
to go all the way to the future and to
see everybody who was ever going to be born, and like,

(43:39):
no one is ever gonna be worthy. There's a reason
he's devastated. John is in heaven and he said, not
just a tear, come down my cheek.

Speaker 4 (43:47):
I wept much, he wept.

Speaker 11 (43:49):
He he is like, oh my goodness, Papa is gonna
be holding that thing out forever and ever, and there's
gonna be an angel around. You're reminding us all all
the time that we've lost authority on Earth.

Speaker 5 (44:02):
I want to transition out and I want to talk
about Donald Trump, because this sets everything up the mountain
of government. How essential is this to the other mountains.
So if I believe in Low says that this is
the most important mountain, I was listening to one of
his videos, and I believe he says this is the

(44:23):
most important of all of the seven mountains. And you
mentioned that dominion, according to them, is taking over society
as a whole, really just controlling society. So that would
seem to me that the government Mountain is the most
important mountain. And if that's the case, then it's important

(44:45):
for these leaders to be involved in politics and to
be you know, and to see Trump Donald Trump as
a I don't know, a cyrus, a j Hugh they say,
a even a almost like a savior. It's almost like
they there's almost like a lot of like Trump worship

(45:06):
going on in this this whole movement. But what are
your thoughts on the government Mountain and Trump?

Speaker 7 (45:12):
Yeah, yeah, I recall that in Low teaches that the
government mountain is the most important mountain, and specifically he
said the US government, as I recall, is the biggest price,
uh for for people for the apostles in nar to
ascend on top of the United States Government Mountain, because
in low would say, well, that's the most you know,
the US government is most powerful in the world, so that's.

Speaker 6 (45:34):
Why it's so essential.

Speaker 7 (45:35):
So I think that's why many in our leaders, you know,
they see they see President Trump as someone to help
them rise to the top of the United States you know,
government and the government mountain. And so yeah, that's uh,
that's definitely the most important mountain that usually in NR.

Speaker 5 (45:58):
So the government mountain, and would be what that would
be the mountain where they are basically conro controlling society.
That's the one that what would would by taking over
the government Mountain? Would that mean that it would be
much easier than for all the other mountains? And if
you want to name the mountains for folks who may

(46:19):
not know what we're talking about, you can do that.
But the other mountains, would it be much easier for
them to kind of fall into place if if, if
the government Mountain is conquered, because I know spiritual warfare
plays a big part in all of these mountains too,
you know, going in conquering these demons that are supposedly
in control over these mountains. So yeah, did did Does

(46:44):
that mean that the other mountains are going to more
easily fall into place.

Speaker 7 (46:48):
Yeah, I would it seems I'm sure that they would
think that that if they had control, you know, the
government mountain, then yeah, they could definitely affect the other mounts.
So just so people people don't know this of an
mountain mandate, many narfs have claimed God gave a revelation
to them that the way for the Church to take
dominion of the earth is to take control of the majors,

(47:08):
the seven major societal institutions. And I always during an interview,
it's always hard for me to name all seven off
the top of my head quickly. So I actually asked
Ai to help me come up with a numonic aid yesterday,
and I was like, dumonic aid because I always forget
one of them right, And so it's funny.

Speaker 6 (47:28):
It gave me for every.

Speaker 7 (47:30):
Big rainbow, mini angels gather. For every big rainbow mini
angels gather. So family, education, business, religion, media, arts, and government.
Those are the seven major societal institutions that that they've identified.
And yeah, they would say that apostles alone have the

(47:51):
authority from God to rise to the top of those
institutions and the cast out the high ranking demonic territorial spirits.
They believe rule over those institutions, and then when they
rise to the top, then they can then you know,
bring God's Kingdom to earth through those institutions. So interestingly,
people like Johnny Inlo will say, you know, well, we
don't believe that dominion is over people.

Speaker 6 (48:14):
You know, I've seen I've seen it say that multiple times.
But then they turn.

Speaker 7 (48:18):
Around and say, but it is over society and talk
about the Seven Mountain mandates. So it's not clear to
me how it's not over people if it's over society.
It seems like they're just talking out of both sides
of their mouth because they've come under such heavy criticism.

Speaker 5 (48:33):
Yeah, it's it's kind of like the Gospel of the Kingdom.
They say, well, you know, salvation of souls is really
good and all, but we're really supposed to be discipling nations.
How are you going to disciple nations that aren't Christians?
You know, you have to you have to. I mean,
there are people in nations. You can't separate people from nations.

(48:55):
I mean that is so so when they say the
Gospel of the Kingdom, that's what they mean. I believe,
if if I'm correct, that it's this idea of discipling nations.
What was it they said, Jesus said, go into all
what how do they put it? The the Great Commission.

Speaker 7 (49:14):
It's a commission, they say, all nations, not just individuals.

Speaker 5 (49:18):
Yes, yeah, but it's yeah, yeah, But I was thinking
of that other verse that says Jesus came to say
that which was lost. See Peter Wagner says that that
which was lost is the nations? Right, and so I
believe am i am I correct on that?

Speaker 13 (49:35):
Yeah?

Speaker 7 (49:35):
I think I maybe saw in Low say something like
that too, yeah, in in his book. But yeah, that
which that which was lost is not referring to people,
they would say, it's like referring to the dominion that
was lost. And so the Gospel of the Kingdom they
and now they talk about how there are like two
gospels being taught today.

Speaker 6 (49:53):
There's the Gospel of Salvation.

Speaker 7 (49:56):
Uh. You know, Peter Wagner talked about this, many and
our leaders talked about this, that Gospel of Salvation, which
is that Christ's work on the cross. You know what
it accomplished in order for people to have their sins
forgiven and to be reconciled to God and to have
the hope of eternal life. And they would say that's
an incomplete gospel, that the complete gospels, the Gospel of
the Kingdom, which is that.

Speaker 6 (50:17):
His work on the cross also made it possible.

Speaker 7 (50:19):
For the church to retake the dominion that Adam allegedly
lost during the fall. And so they would say that really,
what we're supposed to be teaching is the Gospel of
the Kingdom. And they would say the Great Commission really
is not a commission to go into all the world
and to preach the Gospel of Salvation, but it's to
go into all the world and preach the Gospel of

(50:41):
the Kingdom, and that it's a great commission for the
Church to actually take dominion.

Speaker 6 (50:46):
Of the earth.

Speaker 5 (50:47):
Yeah, they make distinctions between the Gospel of the Kingdom
and the Gospel of Salvation, which is just when you
look in the gospels, when you look at Jesus talking
and he's talking about they're one and the same, you know.
But the Gospel of the Kingdom is the Gospel of Salvation.
Just just just boggles of mind. So President Trump is

(51:08):
very it is a very key leader to these guys,
I mean, because he's look, this is not just so
folks know, this is not an anti Trump, you know
discussion we're going to be having here. This is you know,
I am not anti Trump or anything like that. I'm
glad he's getting things done. But the point is is
that I'm not in ar either, neither of you. And

(51:31):
these guys are seeing Trump as some kind of savior
that's going to save America that they call a Christian nation,
and Trump's going to be like a like a almost
like a Messiah figure, and that's really really strange. I
want to play a clip now from Lance Wall. Now,
he's probably the biggest supporter and advocate of this whole

(51:56):
thing than anybody I've ever seen. But this is him
on the seven hundred Club when Pat Robinson Robertson was
still alive, and he's being interviewed talking about Trump as
the Cyrus or uh he called him forty five because

(52:17):
Isaiah forty five talks about cyrus. So so check this
clip out.

Speaker 15 (52:21):
I went to hear Donald Trump in twenty fifteen, uh huh,
And when I came home, I distinctly heard and I'm
not one of those people that's always hearing God's voice,
so it stuck out to me. I heard the Lord
say Isaiah forty five will be the forty fifth president.

Speaker 6 (52:37):
Wow.

Speaker 15 (52:38):
And I, you know, Bible says try the Spirit.

Speaker 5 (52:40):
So I didn't go to the Bible.

Speaker 4 (52:41):
I went to Google. I wanted to see it it's
the next I'm sure Google knows more than the Bible. Yeah, sure.

Speaker 15 (52:47):
So I wanted to know it's the next president forty
five because I can fix this right away.

Speaker 9 (52:50):
But it is okay.

Speaker 15 (52:52):
Barack Obama's forty four. And I said, well, wait, a
second elected twice. Uh huh, Well he keeps the same jerseys,
so he's still forty four. And then I said, oh
my gosh, the next president is forty fifth. Then I
flipped it open. Thus says the Lord to Cyrus, whom
I've anointed. And I'm reading it to break open the
two lead gates of Babylon. But I had just met Trump.
And I'll be honest with you, we have a lot

(53:13):
of great conservatives at that time running and Christians exactly,
and we would like to see.

Speaker 4 (53:17):
Christians and conservatives.

Speaker 15 (53:19):
And I wasn't so sure that Donald Trump was an evangelical.
He's saying he's a Christian, but I'm saying, I don't know.
With a bunch of preachers. We're checking this.

Speaker 5 (53:26):
Out, often married casino operator.

Speaker 15 (53:29):
The art of the deal amazing, unbelievable. See, I didn't know,
but then I read on in this forty fifth chapter
it says Isaiah says, though you have not known me,
I have anointed you for Israel's sake.

Speaker 4 (53:44):
And when I saw that though you have.

Speaker 15 (53:45):
Not known me, I circled it and I said, my God,
this is crazy theology. God's bringing in a heathen ruler
with his anointing who doesn't yet know him, but God's
hand is on him. And then I read on verily,
thou art a God that hides thyself, And I said,
Dear God, you have hidden this, You have hidden your
hand and this unusual man. From that moment on, I said,

(54:07):
this guy's going to go the distance. He'll beat all fifteen,
he'll go all the way to the White House.

Speaker 5 (54:11):
So do you know what I noticed there right away? Holly?
With him talking about that, it reminds me of our
conversation earlier here where we talked about the genie and
the bottle kind of thing or the eight ball kind
of thing or whatever, where you're taking a passage of
scripture that doesn't have anything to do with with the situation.
And you're you're kind of you're you're popping it open.

(54:32):
You're you're listening to some kind of voice in your
head or whatever. I mean, you can however you do it.
You know I've done it that way too. You know,
you think you hear the voice of God telling you
to open a certain passage and that kind of thing.
But that's what that sounds like to me.

Speaker 7 (54:47):
Well, and you know, Lance wall now postures himself as
a prophet too, so you know, he may you know,
claim or insinuate that he's able to see new understandings
of scripture that no one has seen before, because no
o prophets will do that. They'll say that God kind

(55:08):
of turns on the light bulb for our profits and apostles,
and they can see new understandings of scripture of things
that you know, hidden meanings and no one has ever
seen before.

Speaker 6 (55:19):
But but the thing.

Speaker 7 (55:20):
Is, Lance Wallow has not demonstrated that he's a prophet,
and so why should we believe what he says? Why
should we believe that he's had some kind of you know,
revelation of a meaning of scripture that no one's ever
seen before.

Speaker 5 (55:35):
Yeah, yeah, exactly exactly. When I think about real profit,
the real profits in the profits in scripture, genuine prophets.
When you think about the apostles and the prophets like Elijaheneral,
actually they they had signs to back it up. They
when they did miracles, they were real miracles and they
were they could back up their prophecy with that, and

(55:57):
their prophecies came to pass. You know, just because Trump
won the election doesn't mean that that was a prophecy
given to Lance by God and that it's it's all
of a sudden you know that that he's actually hearing
the voice of God. Let's talk a little bit about
decreeing and declaring, because I think that's really important when

(56:17):
it comes to who goes into politics or whatever kind
of answer to prayer God's going to give. If you're
praying Trump and well, you you can't just ask God
to bring, you know, have Trump be the next president.
You've got to decree and declare that that's going to happen,
because that's the only way that God works. And I've

(56:38):
heard and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but
I've heard Cheyan and other videos say that that's how
Jesus taught us to pray, to decree and to declare.
There was no there there was no better way to
pray than to speak, you know, what you want to
happen in you know, into the air and say, I
decree that God do this, right, I decree that this

(57:01):
is going to happen. Have you heard that before?

Speaker 7 (57:03):
Well, yeah, so it's a very common teaching. And are
that the most powerful form of prayer is declaration declared, a.

Speaker 6 (57:10):
Prayer or decree and declaring.

Speaker 7 (57:12):
They would say that petitioning, that's you know, asking God, God,
if it's your will, will you please do this or
will you please do that? That's the biblical former prayer.
That's the way Jesus prayed. That's the way Christians have
historically prayed. They would say that that former prayer is weak,
and that the powerful former prayer that really gets things

(57:35):
done is when you decree or you declare. They believe
that believer God has given believers the authority through their
spoken words to make declarations that create reality.

Speaker 13 (57:47):
That's the whole thing about decree.

Speaker 4 (57:48):
I don't believe.

Speaker 13 (57:48):
And I said, well, listen, that's what Jesus did.

Speaker 9 (57:51):
All he did was to create is.

Speaker 4 (57:52):
He didn't pray.

Speaker 13 (57:53):
He didn't tell the man whose lame father, I pray
you hear him from his lame. No, he said, take
up your madam, walk. He said, to the storm be muscled, Lazareth,
come forth.

Speaker 4 (58:01):
It was all decrease.

Speaker 13 (58:02):
And he says, whatever you bind on earth would be
bound in heaven. Whatever you lose on earth will be
loose in heaven. By the way, that's not only in
Matthew sixteen. The nineteen is so important, he repeats in
Matthew eighteen versus eighteen.

Speaker 4 (58:15):
So whenever Jesus.

Speaker 13 (58:15):
Says something twice, you better pay attention. This is the
key to prayer. And the way it reading the Greek,
is that you bind what he wants you to bind.
In other words, it begins with God. He speaks it
to you, and then you speak what he wants you
to speak, and you decree what he wants.

Speaker 5 (58:30):
That's the key to prayer.

Speaker 13 (58:31):
That's why he says in John fifteen, verse seven, if
you abide in him, that practicing his presence, hearing his voice,
loving on him, being in his word. And then it says,
and my Rayma, my words abide in you. You look
that up in the grief. It's the rama, it's the
prophetic word. Then you can ask according to that whatever

(58:53):
you wish pleasure, it would be aligned with the Father's
heart and it will be given to you. That's the
key to prayer.

Speaker 5 (58:58):
So here is a an example of that, Holly, this
is Cheyon decreeing that Trump is going to be president.
Watch now.

Speaker 13 (59:06):
I just wanted to come back to September one of
this year because I had a zum I had a
zoom call with Lou on September the second, and he
asked me what I wanted to do on the day
of prayer. I said, Lou, I'm really sensing dealing with
Jezebel for the past forty years in California. I mean

(59:27):
to know, Jezebel is a stronghold, is under istard, and
she resides in San Francisco. San Francisco has given us Newsom, Pelosi,
Diane Feinstein, and Kamala Harris.

Speaker 10 (59:41):
And I've been.

Speaker 13 (59:41):
Dealing with this, and I've been dealing with it in
different ways because I've from the Lord to sue Governor
Newsom to deal with Jezebel manifested in Newsom, and by
God's grace, we went all the way to the Supreme Court,
and we won, and we won six' three and their
churches were.

Speaker 4 (01:00:00):
You no longer locked.

Speaker 13 (01:00:01):
Down and because of, that it was a national.

Speaker 4 (01:00:03):
Thing it wasn't Just.

Speaker 13 (01:00:04):
California all the churches could open. Up can we Give
jesus all the praise and all the? GLORY i felt
LIKE i was just say, prelude was my, lion my, bear.

Speaker 4 (01:00:15):
And today Is goliath going?

Speaker 13 (01:00:17):
Down BECAUSE i then heard That istar was going down
From Jonathan. Conn he Says he's going down On october,
twelfth on the day Of. Atonement and WHEN i heard,
THAT i knew That i'm to make a, decree a napisolar,
decree AND i want all the apostles as a prophet
doesn't stand behind, me BECAUSE i want to make a

(01:00:37):
decree And i'm decreeing this by. FAITH i believe When
Jonathan conn says That trump is a type Of jayhu
And Kamala harris is a type Of. Jezebel and as you,
Know jayhu cast Out. JEZEBEL i took one of the
stones AND i went over the edge AND i threw
that stone.

Speaker 4 (01:00:58):
Into the trash.

Speaker 13 (01:00:59):
Can it's a prophetic act for me Because i'm ready
to make this. Decree SO i decree And Jesus mighty,
name AND i decreate by faith That trump will win
On november the. Fifth he will be our forty seventh.
President At, Commas harris will be cast out as she
will lose In, jesus now give him a shout off

(01:01:21):
for her. Faith come, on let's declare.

Speaker 5 (01:01:22):
This so that's a really good example of decreeing and
declaring there that it's not you, Know, lord will you
please Petitioning god to to bring to Have, trump you,
know win the. Election it's it's decreeing and. Declaring so
any thoughts on, That, well one THING.

Speaker 7 (01:01:43):
I would say is that if If President trump hadn't,
won then what cheon could just, say as, well enough
people didn't, join you, know in making the declaration or
making the, decree and so they always have an out
with uh with these type of. Things they can take
credit if if it does happen, that, well that was

(01:02:04):
because of my aposholic. Decree and if it doesn't, happen
It i'll say it's other people's fault because enough, people
you know didn't join in and making that.

Speaker 5 (01:02:12):
Decree, yeah, yeah you're absolutely right about. That i've noticed
that as. Well so what do you think About shayan
and him becoming or trying to actually he, is he
is running for. Governor what do you think of that
governor Of? California what are your thoughts on?

Speaker 6 (01:02:32):
That, yeah, yeah that's very.

Speaker 7 (01:02:34):
INTERESTING I i, think you, KNOW i don't think he
has a realistic chance to become governor Of. California I'M
i don't live In california, anymore BUT i live there
for a long time And i'm very you, know familiar
with what the politics are like. There BUT i do
think that a danger of him running for governor is

(01:02:59):
that that this will extend nar. Influence and SO i
think that there are many, conservatives Conservative christians who might you,
know be drawn to to throw in their support with
someone Like cheon just because, they you, know they see

(01:03:20):
him as as someone that could push back on the
liberal you know politics In california and that that type of. Thing,
so you, KNOW i don't know if he thinks he
seriously has a chance to win or. NOT i, mean
he they're definitely you, know he's definitely a trying to
fulfill the Seven mountain mandate and you, know rise to

(01:03:43):
the top of government there and so that's definitely a,
goal and maybe he thinks he actually has a chance at,
That but either, WAY i think That christians need to
be aware that he's part OF nar and of his
very dangerous and average and. Beliefs and you, KNOW i
Know Richard moore recently did a video where he talked

(01:04:06):
about you, Know, CHEON i Guess chian has been recently
gave some kind of speech where he was very overt
that he's part OF. Nar apparently he said that he
Viewed Bill johnson as his apostle even and so he's
not trying to hide HIS nar, beliefs which is very.
Interesting so that makes you, wonder like what really is
his purpose for running? Here at the very least it

(01:04:28):
may be to EXTEND nar influence among THE.

Speaker 5 (01:04:31):
Gop, yeah AND i have a clip of. That he's
actually got a YouTube chan a new YouTube channel dedicated
to HIS, uh to his run for governor Of. California
and so this he did a conference that's THAT'S i
believe that's the one you're talking. About Richard moore's coverage
Of CHEON'S uh first speech or whatever running for. Governor and,

(01:04:55):
yeah he Had Bill johnson up. There he Called Bill
johnson his. Apostle but let me just Play i'm going
to play a clip of that and you AND. I
the REASON i took this clip is because he actually
in this, clip you're going to hear him say that
he is called to be an apostle to the. Nation
so it backs up everything that you just. Said watch

(01:05:16):
she began.

Speaker 12 (01:05:16):
With a prophetic, word because on the two thousand and Eight,
july The lord woke me up and told me to
sell my. Stocks Not apple, stocks they're going. WILD i
was prospering so much by the INVESTMENT i, made AND
i Called Peter, roselli my financial. Manager he was also
vice President Morgan stanley In New york And Wall, street
AND i made a network of, churches and we have

(01:05:38):
around eight hundred churches In america and again in seventy three.
Nations So i'm not just a local church. PASTOR i
Believe i'm called to be an apostle to oversee these
churches around the.

Speaker 5 (01:05:52):
World, YEAH i mean he says it right. There he's
called to Be he's not just a. Pastor and he's
doing that in front of his. Church that was all
right there in front of his church, there and you
Saw Bill johnson up there on the on the, stage
he was right. There but, yeah he's called to be
an apostle to these churches across the. Nation so that
that's just he, says.

Speaker 6 (01:06:11):
An apostle to the.

Speaker 7 (01:06:12):
Nations and yet you, know when you when we CRITIQUE,
nar when we warn people about what our leaders, teach
our leaders will, say, well we just we don't we
don't believe we have any extraordinary. Authority we just believe
we're like a, pastor you, know or a church planner
or something like. That but then you can see right
There cheon With Bill johnson sitting right there, SAYING i

(01:06:34):
Believe i'm a call to be an apostle to the.

Speaker 6 (01:06:36):
NATIONS i mean the.

Speaker 7 (01:06:39):
Type of authority that that would, take you, know is.
Extraordinary yet they'll, say we don't claim to have any extraordinary.

Speaker 6 (01:06:46):
Authority. No, Actually cheon is more Open cheon in his
Book Modern Day.

Speaker 7 (01:06:51):
Apostles you, know he's quite open about the, beliefs the
the these in our, beliefs and he actually doesn't try
to hide. Them but many and our leaders who endorsed
that book and who work closely With chean do try
to hide and downplay those.

Speaker 5 (01:07:07):
Beliefs, YEAH i want to play one more. Clip and
this is a clip it was it was taken this
prayer we're gonna it's a clip of SEVERAL nar leaders
praying Over President. Trump and this is right before the

(01:07:28):
race that he went, against when he went Against biden and.
Lost but you're going to see SEVERAL noar leaders. HERE
i want to get your take on this and uh
what they say here as they. Pray, okay so let
me just let me just play this clip for.

Speaker 16 (01:07:43):
Him this is one of the greatest men and before
we start, out we'd like to pray over.

Speaker 17 (01:07:48):
Him so send your power in your presence to touch this,
president show him who you, are show him your, love
show him the love of the, people and or do
something so great in him and in this nation that
the pundance ON tv and the news anchors will be
amazed at how Great america, is Because god is great In. America,

(01:08:14):
again In jesus', name we, Pray, Amen.

Speaker 18 (01:08:19):
Father let your kingdom. Come let you will be done
on earth as it is in heaven or And, father
we give you the praise and. Honor and we ask, You,
father that he can be The cyrus to bring, reformation
to bring change into this. Nation and all the nations
of the earth will will Say america is the greatest

(01:08:39):
nation of the. Earth, FATHER i thank you use him this,
time release his. POWER i release The Holy spirit upon his,
life for The holy spirits to strengthen, him his, spirits solemn,
body And, FATHER i release wisdom from, heaven AND i
Declare god that you use them to change the spiritual

(01:09:00):
must fear of this.

Speaker 13 (01:09:01):
Nation.

Speaker 16 (01:09:03):
Amen and now as we stretch our, hands we secure your,
Purpose we secure your.

Speaker 9 (01:09:07):
Calling give him.

Speaker 16 (01:09:08):
Victory after, victory victory after. Victory we declared that no
weapon formed against them will be able to, prosper and
every demonic aulture that has been erected against them.

Speaker 9 (01:09:17):
Will be torn.

Speaker 16 (01:09:18):
Down we declared that who will rise high and he
is seated in heavenly, places surround him with people of,
prayer and let him walk out the will Of god
In jesus, name and everybody shout.

Speaker 5 (01:09:29):
It what are your thoughts when listening to that?

Speaker 7 (01:09:32):
Prayer, well there was so much in our, language you,
know so many in our terms buzzwords that you could
pick up on there if you know the. Terminology of,
course Declare we've already talked about. Declaring, uh you know
they kept, saying you, know we're declaring.

Speaker 6 (01:09:49):
This or that.

Speaker 7 (01:09:51):
Release and talk to one of them talked about Releasing god's.
Power that's in our, buzzword you, know the idea that
that you, know they have the authority just to through
their spoken word to release, things power or, whatever The Holy.
Spirit and then spiritual atmosphere was ANOTHER nar term THAT

(01:10:13):
i picked up on. There they often talked about a spiritual.
Atmosphere it's like kind of an atmosphere that either demons
or angels rule over and they think that they can
change the atmosphere through their. Declarations so and there were you,
know there there was OTHER nar terminology in. THERE i
probably am, forgetting but there was quite a bit of.

Speaker 6 (01:10:34):
It.

Speaker 5 (01:10:36):
Yeah. Yeah hankoneman actually when he was prophesying this is
BEFORE i, think Before trump won his first, term said
that the phrase Make america great again came From god. Himself.

Speaker 3 (01:10:57):
America this it's my, saying says The.

Speaker 12 (01:11:04):
Lord.

Speaker 4 (01:11:05):
This it's not it's just a saying that some have.
Uttered it is my.

Speaker 5 (01:11:13):
Saint so it's just there's just so much craziness with
this whole you, know mountain of government. Stuff and then,
uh and then they you, know you have them kind
of criticizing people like us for critiquing it like we
were talking about earlier and saying that The New Apostolic

(01:11:33):
reformation doesn't even. Exist we have no, Idea Bill, JOHNSON
i have no idea what that?

Speaker 9 (01:11:36):
Is what is? That you? Know what is?

Speaker 5 (01:11:38):
It, So, holly Four christians that you know watching that
are watching this, episode who have been drawn in by
these nar, teachings what's the first biblical step they can
take to get out of this? Movement?

Speaker 7 (01:11:59):
All the great important thing AND i think that's come
through in this interview. Today this this discussion we've been
having is that people need to learn how to properly
read and interpret scripture so that they can detect when
our leaders and are so called apostles and profits are misusing.
Scripture and so it's important like if an if an our,

(01:12:23):
leader they if they side a, verse then to be
able to look up that verse and to see if
it says what they're actually claiming that it. Says and
so that is very important for people to learn. Scripture
h and not just to not just settle if a
leader quotes, scripture but to know if they are using

(01:12:45):
it in context and are using it properly if it
actually supports their the thing they say it.

Speaker 5 (01:12:50):
Supports, yeah and that would go for even for pastors as.
WELL i know that they're you, know there are a
lot of, pastors and they're really good, pastors well meaning,
pastors but they don't know this stuff even. Exists and
so it's easy for things Like bethel music and other you,
know elevation music to slip into the churches And i'm

(01:13:12):
not even thinking twice about, it and, that, yeah ARE
nar language and all of that, too you, Know, yeah and.

Speaker 7 (01:13:17):
They don't know the, buzzwords and so you have otherwise
biblically sound churches that are singing songs WITH nar buzzwords
like spiritual awakening or you, know change the, atmosphere these
these different, things and they don't know what they're singing
because they're just they're thinking of it through their biblically,

(01:13:39):
sound you, know, mindset and not realizing that they're having
their church literally SEEING nar theology every.

Speaker 5 (01:13:47):
Week, yeah, yeah. Exactly it's unless the pastors really start
looking into this and, learning like you, said the, buzzwords
it's going to be difficult to detect that really. Is
so where can people go to learn more about the
nar and how to guard themselves against the. Influence.

Speaker 6 (01:14:06):
Yeah, well as far as our, books you know you
mentioned we've read four, BOOKS i WOULD i would recommend
they start With Counterfeit, Kingdom The dangers Of New, Revelation New,
profits And New Age practices in The.

Speaker 7 (01:14:18):
Church that's this book. HERE i was making SURE i
had the subtitle. Right you can confused, sometimes but that's
a really good. Place it's just it really explains the
teaching simply and, clearly and it provides documentations so people
can see that what we're saying the, people the leaders

(01:14:41):
in this movement teach that they actually do teach those
things because they can go look up the original sources
for themselves to make sure that we're representing their teachings
in context.

Speaker 5 (01:14:50):
Accurately, yeah and your channel as, well because not only
do you have your your teachings on, there as far
as your your your actual podcast where you go through you,
know things like Hearing God's, voice but you also have
snippets a bunch of snippets from interviews and things like
that on there that you, know they're not very, long

(01:15:11):
eight ten, minutes twelve minutes sometimes and they're just from
different people that have had you. On you And doug
and you guys are just explaining WHAT nar is and
all of. That so there's there's plenty of. That so
your podcast is another really good. Resource and So i'll
be making sure THAT i put a link to your

(01:15:33):
YouTube channel in the. Description and, folks if you have
not subscribed To holly or you, don't you've never seen your,
channel head over, there support or subscribe to her and
and you, know help, her because really subscribing and liking
the videos people. DON'T i NEVER i don't say that.
ANYMORE i used to put a big subscribe. BUTTON i
don't even do that. Anymore but it really. Does it

(01:15:54):
really truly. Does if YOU i have way more people
watching my channel or subscribe to. It if you subscribe
to the channels and you hit the like, button that's
going to push these videos out to more. People it really.
Will the algorithm will do. That you.

Speaker 6 (01:16:11):
Know, yeah that's absolutely.

Speaker 5 (01:16:12):
True all, Right. Holly we should do this again on
a regular. Base we should do it on a regular,
basis but we we really should do this again. SOON
i really appreciate you all your, work all that you
And doug have, done AND i really do hope you
guys do another book and that you do another writing
project because it's always just so important and helpful to

(01:16:34):
the body Of. Christ you guys do such a great.

Speaker 7 (01:16:36):
Job, well thank, you thank you so, much AND i
JUST i thoroughly enjoy every TIME i talk with.

Speaker 6 (01:16:42):
You it's. Great so love to do it, again.

Speaker 5 (01:16:45):
Absolutely, absolutely, folks thanks for, Watching Lord will and we'll
see you next.

Speaker 9 (01:16:49):
Week eight