Why Are There So Many Scandals in the Charismatic Movement: A Conversation With Justin Peters

Justin Peters joins me as we discuss decades of scandal and abuse in the Charismatic and Pentecostal Movements.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
It has revealed the hypocrisy that is buried just beneath
the surface in most of us, claiming to be incensed,
even outraged by what we hear, all the while clamoring
for more. Well, let's begin with the two people who
have been at the heart of this story, joining us
live from their home in Palm Springs, California, Jim and
Tammy Baker. Why now, after what has it been ten

(00:22):
weeks of essentially reclusive activity. It came out once and
you chatted briefly with the press, but them it was
more of a photo opportunity. Yes, yes, why are you
willing to talk now?

Speaker 2 (00:31):
Well, we have been quiet for these many, many weeks,
and it's been devastating to us what we've been going through.
And if I could just give you one scripture to
its kind of set the stage for what God has
given to us. And this was a scripture that the
Lord gave me in Psalms thirty eight, verse twelve. Meanwhile,

(00:55):
my enemies are trying to kill me. They plot my
ruin and spend all their wake hours planning treachery. But
I am deaf to all their threats. I am silent
for them as a man who cannot speak. I have
nothing to say for I am waiting for you. Oh Lord,
my God, come.

Speaker 3 (01:12):
And protect me.

Speaker 2 (01:13):
Put an end to their arrogance, those who gloat when
I am cast down. And it's important I believe to
wait upon the Lord. The Bible says say that wait
upon the Lord will renew their strength. And Tammy and
I have gone through a devastating time. Tammy started first
with the pneumonia, and then we went through the Betty

(01:34):
Ford's program, and then this thing came and just crushed
us so deeply, and we didn't want to get in
the fight. It was like a circus. We couldn't believe it.
We wanted to protect our children, We wanted to really
just cling to each other and seek God. But it
won't stop. And we're getting really thousands of letters, and

(01:56):
people said, we want to hear from you, Jim and Tammy.
We want to know what went on, We want to.

Speaker 4 (02:01):
Know where you are, how you feel.

Speaker 2 (02:04):
And we chose to come out today, and we actually
chose your program. We've been had. I guess we had
invitations just about every program to come on, but I
felt that you're not only tough, but I felt that
you would be fair and give us a chance to
share with people all over the country.

Speaker 1 (02:21):
All right, well, I hope I live up to both
your expectations.

Speaker 5 (02:24):
Let's start with the tuck.

Speaker 1 (02:25):
You may consider this to be a tough question as baker.
Is it going to be possible to get through an
interview with both of you without your wrapping yourselves in
the Bible. I don't mean to demean your faith in
the Lord. I don't mean to demean whatever faith you
have in the Bible. But sometimes one gets the sense

(02:45):
in listening to the two of you, whenever you get
into trouble, you wrap yourselves in that holiness which protects you.
Because folks don't like to poke through that too much.
Mis a baker can respond to that, Okay.

Speaker 2 (03:00):
Good, well, all the Bible is a protection. It's a
very real protection.

Speaker 1 (03:05):
It's a comfort. That's I think the biggest reason we
wrap ourselves in the Bible.

Speaker 4 (03:08):
It's so comforting.

Speaker 5 (03:10):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (03:12):
Jesus said, I go away, I'll send a comfort to you,
and he has.

Speaker 4 (03:16):
Justin Peters, thank you so much for taking time out
of your busy Saturday and coming on to my program today.

Speaker 3 (03:24):
Dan, my brother in Christ and fellow Pittsburgh Steelers fans.

Speaker 6 (03:28):
Yeah, yes, absolutely, I was gonna actually wear my Pittsburgh
Steeler hat today and I just said, yeah, you know what,
I'm just not gonna I'm not going to deal with
it with the comments they played a night at eight o'clock.

Speaker 4 (03:39):
I'm not I don't have a lot of confidence. But
we'll see, We'll see what happens. Anyway, justin you yourself, don't
need any real introduction at all, but just in case
there are people watching this video that don't know who
you are, just talk a little bit about yourself and
what you're up to right now.

Speaker 3 (03:56):
Sure, Dan Well, by God's grace, I am in a evangelists,
a full time evangelists. A lot of people think all
I do is YouTube. YouTube is a side gig at best,
it's not even gig. But I travel. I travel all
over the world by God's grace and preach and teach.
One of the things that I'm most known for is

(04:16):
engaging the health and Wealth Prosperity Gospel, the Word of
Faith movement, and offering what I hope to be a
comprehensive biblical refutation of that movement. That's kind of what
I'm known for, you know, Benny hen and Kenneth Copeland
and a lot of the same people that you ably
you and Robin ably deal with on your channel. So

(04:37):
I'm so grateful for that. But yeah, but I'm my
first commitment is to preaching the gospel, expositional preaching, and
what I do on YouTube is just kind of when
I have time to do it. But God has grown
my channel far beyond what I ever what I ever envisioned,

(04:59):
and I'm very grateful for that. And it's a it's
an effective way, as you know, Dan, to to be
able to reach people all around the world. You know,
in countries that that will never have an opportunity to
to go to. So I mean, I do travel internationally,
but there's there's more countries out there than we'll be
able to fit. So absolutely it's a joy to be

(05:21):
able to do it well.

Speaker 4 (05:23):
The topic that we're going to be discussing is why
are there so many scandals in the charismatic movement? And
when I say that you and I were talking, uh
before I press record, we don't we acknowledge that it's
not just in the charismatic movement. There are scandals and
you know, you can look at the the Jerry Folwell
Junior scandal. You can look at the Rav Zacher Rabbi

(05:45):
zach Ryath scandal, the Steve loss And scandal. So we
acknowledge that. But when you when you look at you know, denominations,
branches of Christianity as a whole, it's seems to me,
and I'm gonna get your opinion on this as well,
but it seems to me that the scandals, the most

(06:08):
most of the scandals come out of the charismatic movement.

Speaker 3 (06:12):
Yeah, you know, they they do. Dan, There's no doubt.
As you said, yes, there is sin in our in
my cessationist camp. I'm more so tiriologically reformed God sovereignty
and salvation. But uh, I think you and I both
fit in the in the cessationist camp, and there's certainly

(06:34):
there's certainly sin. As you mentioned Steve Lawson just recently
and tragically, and he was one of the more well
known preachers in my theological circles. I I mean I
knew him, but not well. You and I have talked
far far more than Steve Lawson and I ever talked.

(06:55):
But but at any rate, but here's the difference. When
it happens in our camp we actually deal with it.
You disqualify yourself morally. You commit adultery in our camp.
You're done. It doesn't mean you can never be a
church member again, but it does mean you can never

(07:17):
be behind the pulpit again. You've morally disqualified yourself. You
no longer meet the biblical qualifications to be an elder.
You're no longer above reproach per First Timothy three. And
according to proverb six, I don't have in front of me,
but proverb six thirty two and thirty three, it says
that he who commits adultery with a woman is unwise.

(07:42):
He who would destroy his soul does it. In other words,
if you want to destroy your life, commit adultery. And
it says that. It goes on to say that his
reproach will never be blotted out. The reproach will never
be blotted out. That's not to say you can't be
forgiven judicially, speaking before God, you can be. It's not

(08:05):
the unforgivable sin, but the sin of adultery. Unlike other sins,
it leaves a wound, it leaves a scar, It leaves
a reproach that will never be fully blotted out. So
you're permanently disqualified from being behind the pulpit. But in
the charismatic movement, that's not true. They don't take that

(08:28):
view at all. I mean, in fact, most of the
time in the Charismatic movement, you commit adultery or sexual
sin of some sort and it's exposed. You might come
out of the preaching saddle for a year maybe or
even a few months, and then you're right back in it.

(08:49):
Nine dames out of ten you're right back in it.
And so it's almost like this revolving door of preachers
who disqualify themselves, but they're always quote unquote restored, you know,
Todd Bentley, mydness.

Speaker 4 (09:07):
I mean, we're gonna be talking about We're gonna be
talking about him today. But I want to I want
to ask you so that that's a question I'm sure
people want to know, is why what's the difference between
the they reform the Lutheran camp that that that says
that when when this happens, there is a reproach that

(09:29):
makes it impossible for you to step back into the
pulpit again. What what what's the difference is there? Scripture passages?
The only thing I can think that they might try
to use is the David and Bathsheba passage or David falling,
you know what I mean? But do they what what
what causes them to do that?

Speaker 3 (09:50):
Do what scripture?

Speaker 4 (09:51):
Do they have to just restore some fallen leader like
that right back in and not just not just you know,
sometimes the leaders away for a little while, but a
lot of times it's less than a year and that
leader pastor whatever is right back in the pulpit again,
right back in front of the cameras again.

Speaker 3 (10:13):
So what do you think, Yeah, yeah, no doubt, Yeah,
I think they would. In fact, I've heard them refer
to David and Bathsheba and that sin. You know, David
committed this egregious sin and yet he was a man
after God's own heart and blah blah blah blah blah,
you know, and it Charismatics they're so conveniently selective, you know,

(10:33):
depending upon which Testament they will appeal to, whether it's
New or old. They can't find anything in the New
Testament to afford that kind of return to the pulpit.
So they've got to go to an old covenant example
in scripture and take that out of context and build

(10:54):
a case around it. So Yeah, they're very conveniently selective, Dan,
But yeah, it's it reflects it reflects a low view
of the pulpit. It reflects a low view of preaching.
Preachers are held to a higher standard. And James three
to one says that let not many of you desire

(11:14):
to become teachers, my brethren, knowing that we will encour
a stricter judgment. So now let me say I don't
want people to be confused. This is not to say
if you commit some kind of sexual sin or adultery
before your conversion, that that permanently disqualifies you. No, once

(11:35):
you are converted in Christ, all things passed away, all
things made new. You know, you're basically dealing with a
clean slate. But we're talking about men who after their conversion,
after they're in ministry, they commit adultery. Then they should
be permanently disqualified from being in the pulpit, not from
being a church member, but from being behind the pulpit.

(11:57):
But that's just not the case in the Cares movement,
as you said, they're they're back in the saddle usually
in no time at all. They could he split. Yeah,
they have a lower view of preaching.

Speaker 4 (12:11):
Yeah, they do. They absolutely do. You're talking about how
they like to use passages of scripture from the Old Covenant.
I think I was just thinking, like you said, you say, yeah,
they always they always quote the you know, you're the head,
not the tail.

Speaker 7 (12:23):
That's that's cone it as well. So yeah, I know,
it's it's kind of a habit. Eh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
I tell you, I tell you. So let's, uh, let's
talk about the history of some of these scandals. Let's
let's take a look at how far back these scandals go.
And the first person that pops into mind is John
Alexander Dowie. And a lot of charismatics know who he is.

(12:45):
Some may not, but he really was the prototype of
faith healers. He was around in what let's see, early
twentieth century, so right around he started getting famous in
about eighteen nineties when he when he built his Christian
Catholic church and then started having healing homes, and then
from there he went to building a utopian society called

(13:09):
Zion you know, Zion City, which by the way, is
still in existence at Zion City, Illinois today. And and
a lot of people don't know that it was John
Alexander Dowie that that started that whole thing, that built
that whole thing. But he had financial improprieties responsible for
several deaths in his healing healing homes. I've got newspaper

(13:29):
articles of just disaster after disaster with those healing homes.
And then later he was accused of sexual immorality when
he when he was exposed.

Speaker 4 (13:41):
But that's just one, you know. Then you have Charles
Parhum accused of sexual misconduct, you have John G. Lake,
and I could just go on and on, Amy Simple McPherson,
and we could just go, you know, on and on
and on, and that's just the early twentieth century.

Speaker 8 (13:55):
You know.

Speaker 3 (13:56):
And Dan, these are the as you know, these are
the These are the men and women that Charismatics today
referred to as God's generals.

Speaker 4 (14:04):
Yes, they do.

Speaker 3 (14:05):
These are God's generals. These are the great men and
women of the faith, you know, the pioneers of the
Pentecostal and Charismatic movement. And yet you look at God's
generals and every single one of them was a theological heretic,
a prolific false prophet, provably so they were con artists.

(14:30):
I mean, you mentioned, you mentioned Charles Parum, you know,
he had this scam of claimed he had the location
of the Arc of the Covenant, you know, all right,
I mean he was a complete con artist. And John G.
Lake was a complete con artist disguised himself as an

(14:51):
Arabistic if memory serves, he called himself been abdul Shinindar
or something.

Speaker 4 (14:57):
Yes, yes, that's exactly.

Speaker 3 (15:02):
It's just like it's like comical, you know that there
there really is con artists.

Speaker 4 (15:09):
Yeah, it really is.

Speaker 3 (15:11):
Charles Parum, I mean that guy, he is of of
all of God's generals, he's one of the one of
the higher ranking ones because he's the father of the
American Pentecostal movement.

Speaker 4 (15:24):
He is, he is, And there's so much there are
so many articles that I've got saved of Charles, of
Charles Parum. And then he had of course he had that,
uh that that incident where he was arrested for sexual
immorality with a young boy and his So it just yeah, yeah,

(15:47):
it's just that there's a lot of that.

Speaker 3 (15:48):
And then it's your program and I don't want to
please they're just a little bit because Pentecostals they would say, oh,
well he was falsely accused. Those those charges were never proven.
But but when you read the newspaper articles of that event,
he never actually denied these charges. He actually said something

(16:13):
to the fact of you know, well, I was asleep,
you know, like sleepwalking or something. You had some bizarre,
like even believable excuse for Yeah.

Speaker 4 (16:24):
Yeah, he said that he was forced into writing out
that confession, like he like the the the detectives or
police officers or whatever. They they literally forced him to
write out the confession. That's another story that that he had.
But there were people that knew him, and they said

(16:46):
that he had uh problems in the you know, in
that area more than just one time. There were there
were other issues as well, you know. So yeah, yeah,
and the just the scams that he ran. Of course,
you've got the the head of the you know, this
is like you were saying, this is Charles param the

(17:07):
founder of the Pentecostal movement. He gets in with a
guy who claims to be an alchemist and can turn
rocks into gold, and param says, Param says, well, you know,
I had no idea that he you know, he was
a con artist. He said, he came to my prayer
meeting and he said he wanted to help me financially,
and he had a way to do it, and I

(17:28):
just went along with it. So, you know, and even
if that was true, it just shows you how naive
can you be. You're supposed to be this this guy
who has brought the you know, Pentecost had brought the
return of Pentecost to the church, you know, and you're
naive enough to believe a guy who comes to your

(17:48):
meeting and says he can turn rocks into gold. I mean,
this is the kind of stuff that that the God's
generals are accused of.

Speaker 3 (17:57):
Yeah, that's right, that's right, it says. I mean, Jesus
himself said a good tree cannot bear bad fruit, right,
you know, bad tree cannot bear good fruit. And these
were all bad trees. John Alexander Dowi, Charles param John G. Lake,
you know, Amy simple mean feers and these are bad creed.

Speaker 4 (18:20):
Yeah. And then on top of that, you've got the
mid twentieth century guys like AA Allen, who was unfortunately
found in a hotel room died of alcohol. You know
what did? He arrested for drunk driving, later found dead
in a hotel room surrounded by alcohol and pills. You know,
it just tragic stuff like that. But this is the

(18:42):
kind of stuff that and this is the bad thing
about it, justin, this is what the world sees. This
is what the world sees, and they equate this kind
of stuff to Christianity. So moving forward, we got Jim Baker,
we got Jimmy Swagger, we got Robert Tilton, Benny Hen,
Paul Crouch. All of these are scandals that were part

(19:03):
of that, that were coming out of, I should say,
the charismatic movement. Jim Baker. I watched justin. I watched
up just a documentary today I found on YouTube just
just you know, as I'm preparing, and the Jim Baker
story is just crazy. And now Jim Baker, what do

(19:23):
we see? Right back at it again, just like we
were talking about, you.

Speaker 3 (19:27):
Know, doing the same thing.

Speaker 1 (19:29):
You know.

Speaker 3 (19:29):
Danny he wrote when he was arrested and he spent
I can't remember exactly how long he spent in prison,
but while he was in prison, he wrote this book
called I Was Wrong. You know, where he supposedly had
kind of came to his senses like, Okay, the stuff
I was preaching, the stuff I was doing, it was wrong.
So he wrote this book I was wrong, and now

(19:49):
he's right back, and has been for a number of years.
But he's back doing the same thing that he was
doing before. So now I guess he needs to write
a book I was wrong about being wrong.

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(20:45):
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Speaker 4 (20:51):
He's doing it seems I know, I know, I know,
it's it's it's just mind boggling to me. I just
want to read if I can, and the people I've
got here on this twentieth century. So let's start with
Jim Baker. Jim Baker was convicted of fraud and imprisoned
for over for over selling lifetime partnerships to his Heritage

(21:13):
USA resort. He also faced accusations of sexual misconduct. Then
we got Jimmy Swaggert, Yeah yeah, And Jimmy Swaggert was
caught in two separate sexual scandals involving prostitutes. He publicly
confessed but was defraud by the Assemblies of God. Robert
Tilton faced investigations for fraudulent fundraising practices, including discarding Prairie

(21:34):
Quest while keeping monetary donations. And the Trinity, the guys
from the Trinity Foundation, they're the ones that just blew
that out of They opened that up and exposed that.
Of course, our favorite Benny Hen accusations of false healing,
financial misconduct, controversial theology, Paul Crouch, allegations of homosexual affair,

(21:56):
and misuse of donor funds to settle a office suit.
And this is just that's just the twentieth century.

Speaker 3 (22:03):
Oh Dan, It's on and on and on, and I yeah,
Robert Tilton, I mean my goodness. You talk about a
huckster and Paul Kroutch was a drunk, he was a
lush amongst other things. You know, credible accusations of sexual
misconduct and of homosexual nature. Yeah, and yeah, I've talked

(22:30):
to people very close to that situation and that those
were credible.

Speaker 4 (22:35):
I'm sorry you're talking about how and that doesn't even
mention the Ted Haggard situation. You know, the whole story
with Ted Haggard and what happened with him, and you know,
the male escort that he was involved in, and then
later on the young guy that was in his church
that he was involved in, and this, like I said, yeah,
there is We talked about this. Yeah, there is scandal

(22:56):
in other branches or other denominations and other branches the Christianity.
Like I said, you've got the Robbie Zacharias thing, and
you've got the Jerry Fowllell Junior thing. But it just
happens over and over and over again in the charismatic movement.

Speaker 3 (23:14):
Anybody who would say, anybody who would say, oh, well,
it happens in your movement too, it's no different. It's
no different in the cessations camp than it is the
charismatic camp. Anybody who would say that is is being
I would have to say that they're they're they're being
intentionally intellectually dishonest, because yes, on occasion, it does happen

(23:36):
in our camp. But in the chars but as I said,
we deal with it. You're disqualified permanently. But in the
charismatic camp it is rampant, rampant, It's like it's it's
baked into the charismatic cake, if you will. It's I
am surprised. I am genuinely This is not hyperbole, Dan,

(24:00):
I am genuinely surprised when I see a prominent, popular, famous,
charismatic preacher who is not involved in some way with
some kind of scandal. That's that's the aberration. Yeah, then,
orm all these people that we've been talking about, like unlike,

(24:20):
unlike people in our camp, unlike you, unlike me, unlike
John MacArthur, unlike whoever. You know. I don't. I don't
claim God is speaking to me in any way other
than scripture. But with the in the charismatic camp. That's
that's why I said earliest, it's like baked into the cake.
Their their theology, the very premise of their theological position

(24:41):
that God is speaking outside of scripture in dreams and
visions and still small voices and maybe even trips to
heaven and all that kind of stuff. And you know,
so you claim that that God is speaking to me,
you claim to be able to hear the voice of God.
So clearly, you know, God gives you prophecies and words

(25:01):
of knowledge and all this. So people are listening to
this and they and they believe it. That's kind of
their background. They believe it, and they're taught to trust
the Man of God or the Woman of God. And
even though I'm convinced that a lot of a lot
of the charismatics use that term generally who follow these individuals,

(25:22):
I think they probably do have some questions in the
back of their mind, but they dare not voice those
questions or doubts because if you question the Man of God,
it's tantamount to questioning God himself, because he hears directly
from God. This is God's spokesperson, so you know, touch

(25:44):
not the Lord's anointed, And that's taken out a context
of course as usual. So people are afraid to question
the man or woman of God because that's tantamount to
questioning God himself, and so they just kind of suppress
those doubts, express those questions.

Speaker 8 (26:01):
Go.

Speaker 3 (26:01):
I cannot tell you how many people I've talked to
over the years who used to be in this movement,
and that's exactly what they've told me. Yeah, I had
some doubts, I had some questions, I saw some things,
but I was I was afraid to ask.

Speaker 4 (26:13):
Yeah. Yeah, there's dangers not just by fuck with following
the leader, but just practicing that yourself. Trying to hear
from God, you know, in your heart or wherever outside
of the Bible can lead you into a big mess.
I know for a fact, because I ended up in

(26:34):
a big mess before Robin and I left a certain
church that we were in. It what happened to us
almost destroyed our our marriage. And that was because I
thought I heard from God. And you know, that's another
story for another day, but I know, and that's one
of the reasons why I am so passionate about the

(26:55):
sufficiency of scripture, because it almost destroyed my It literally
almost destroyed my life trying, you know, and I wasn't
even a charismatic. I went to a Baptist church and
the past Yeah, and and and we went through the
experiencing God thing with Henry Blackabee probably three times at least.

(27:19):
I bet I went through that thing at least three times,
but always and looking and looking for signs, you know,
God wants me to move. Oh look, I saw a
license plate. Maybe that's where God wants me to go.
That kind of that kind of stuff is is is
a result of not being taught that God has spoken

(27:40):
already and that Scripture is sufficient, and you already have
everything you need to know right there in the Bible.
And in the sense that you know it, it is
sufficient to equip us for every good work.

Speaker 3 (28:00):
Absolutely, then that is exactly what it comes down to.
Harp on this all the time. I say, you know,
the theoretically, anyway, the battle over in Errancy. Theoretically, those
battles were won back in the eighties. But where the
real battle today is being fought is over sufficiency. Is
God's words sufficient? And that battle, unfortunately is being lost

(28:24):
on a number of fronts, social justice front, even the
Roman Catholic front, and the charismatic front. It's an abandonment
of the sufficiency of scripture. I'm so glad you mentioned
experiencing God Dan, because when you did, man, I just
had like theological PTSD because I was raised Southern Baptist
and I went through experiencing God. I even taught it

(28:46):
to my own shame, back before I knew any better.
And you're exactly right, even something like experiencing God that
seems so benign, but yet it introduced charismatic theology into
at least theoretically non charismatic churches, which Southern Baptists would
be theoretically non charismatic. But yeah, I mean it sends

(29:11):
you on this like mystical treasure hunt of trying to
divine the will of God. I'll tell on myself a
little bit. Back before I knew any better, and as
a young man getting ready to graduate from college, I
knew I was going to seminary, but I wasn't sure
if I should go to. I lived in Mississippi at

(29:34):
the time, and so my two best options were New
Orleans and Fort Worth, New Orleans Seminary and then the
seminary Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, and I
couldn't decide which one to go to. And I was
just out of a fresh out of teaching. Actually experiencing God.
And I'm listening to the radio and this Michael W.

(29:56):
Smith song comes on and one of the lyrics and
one of the lines in the song is as uh
go west, young man.

Speaker 4 (30:02):
I remember that song.

Speaker 3 (30:03):
You remember that? So I'm like, oh, that's that's God
speaking to me, like west, Okay, Southwestern due west of Vicksburg, Mississippi.
That's how I ended up going to Southwestern Seminary. It's
because of Michael W. Smith song. And I thought, God,
that's how God was talking to me.

Speaker 4 (30:21):
Well, yeah, and I can I can relate. I I
I was thinking that God wanted Robin and I to
move to South Carolina and uh, and just wasn't sure
if that's what he wanted us to do or not.
And I was I was sitting at a stoplight and praying.
I'd been praying about it, Lord, you know, just let
me just show me, let me let me know. And
it's this car comes right up. I wasn't praying like

(30:42):
I'd been praying earlier that day. This car comes right
up in front of me, had South Carolina license plate.
There you go that that that's it. That's uh. There
was a so so yeah. I mean I I've done that.
I've I've been there, done that. I treat it. I
used to treat scripture like a yet you ever seen
one of those eight balls that you you shake up
and have the and you have the answer inside of

(31:02):
the that's that, Yeah, And that's a perfect illustration, perfect
because that's how I used to I used to say, Okay, God,
what do you want me?

Speaker 10 (31:12):
Lord?

Speaker 4 (31:12):
What do you want me to do? And I'd look
at scripture and I'd try to figure it out like that,
and I just I just was never taught any different.
And it's not I can't blame all of my teachers
or anything like that, but because you know, I had
to take my own I have to take responsibility for
my own actions. But that's how I viewed how the

(31:34):
God speaks to you through scripture for a long time.
Just pop the Bible open, think about it, pray about
it all right, Lord, show me boom. And sometimes it would
actually open up to exactly and I'm like, whoah, you know,
But but other times it didn't. Other times it was
coming up with these weird verses, you know, and I'm like,
oh wait, let me try that again.

Speaker 3 (31:57):
Works, Yeah, you do that, you're uh eating a word
from the Lord and say, okay, Lord, I'm gonna I
need a word. You close your eyes and you have
your bio open up at random, and you point and
you look and said Judas went out and hung himself. Yeah, yeah,
go and do that likewise.

Speaker 4 (32:15):
You know, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, and that and but
that's really how I, you know, I that is one
of the ways I you know, and and I'm gonna
I've got Robin Iron plan on talking about this in
another video. But that's one of the ways where how
my marriage was almost destroyed through thinking God spoke to
me like that, you know, and that kind of thing.

(32:36):
But so, uh let's go ahead, let me, let me,
let me finish reading this list, justin if I can,
just to stay. Uh So we got Eddie Long was
accused of sexual misconduct by multiple men young men, resulting
in and out of court settlements. Todd Bentley, which is
we're going to discuss a little bit if if we
have time. We've been at this. Wow, We've been at
this already for thirty minutes.

Speaker 1 (32:57):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (32:57):
Todd Bentley faced allegations of adultry, financial and priority in
twenty eight and twenty nineteen. He was accused of sexual
misconduct involving his ministry staff. And then of course you
got the whole Mike Pickle Eye Hop scandal. We don't
need to go down that trail because that's that's been
beat to death. Karl Lentz fired for marital infidel a
little bit of infidelity. His scandal exposed broader issues of

(33:20):
leadership abuse and financial misconduct within Hills Song Church. Globally,
of course, the Brian Houston thing. Kreflo Dollar arrested for
allegedly assaulting his daughter. Kenneth Copeland, he's this guy. You're
the Kenneth Copeland expert. If anybody's a Kenneth Copeland expert,
I'd say you're the Kenneth Copeland expert. Criticism for lavish,
his lavish lifestyle, you know, funded by donations, including private jets,

(33:45):
you know, that sort of thing. But there are some
common themes when you look at these these scandal justin
I just I just wrote down, got down, put down
some common themes here, common themes that I see when
when you put all these things together, and and this
isn't all of them, this is just it's just a handful, right,
but the common themes and all these financial improprieties, sexual

(34:08):
misconduct even homosexual misconduct or homosexuality, power and control abuses,
deception and fraud, lavish lifestyles, hypocrisy, weak accountability structures like
we were talking about before. There just isn't any accountability
for a lot of these pastors and leaders, and emotional

(34:29):
and spiritual manipulation. And we see that all the time
as well. So anyway, just a just a few common
themes that I see running through there, and anything you
want to add to that.

Speaker 3 (34:40):
Yeah, a couple of things. For one, all of these
names that we just mentioned here recently, well, with the
exception of Eddie Long, he's dead. But Todd Bentley, what
do we see with Todd Bentley? He's back in the ministry.
He's now inexplicably being played formed by Rick Joyner, who

(35:01):
has restored him, you know, more times than there are
stars in the sky, so inexplicably, Rick Joyner is platforming
Todd Bentley. So he's back in the ministry. Carl Lyntz
is back in the ministry. He's with Michael Todd at
Transformation Church in Tulsa, so he's back. Brian Houston's back,

(35:22):
He's back in the ministry. He's wanting to start a church.
I don't maybe he's already begun it here somewhere here
in the United States. So he's back, cryfflo dollars back
in the ministry. Kenneth Copeland never left the ministry. So
what do we say. They're all back. They're all back,
and that's exactly what we're talking about. They're all back.
And Benny hen still in the ministry. Robert Tilton's still

(35:42):
doing whatever in much smaller scale. Jimmy Swagger, he's he's
he's been back in the ministry for.

Speaker 4 (35:49):
I had no idea he's back. He's he's still, he's
still doing his thing.

Speaker 3 (35:52):
I had some broadcasting son, he's got his television channel,
sun Life Broadcasting. So yeah, he's back. Jim Yeah. Benny
hen All Crouch is dead so he can't come back.
But they're all back. It's exactly what we're talking about.
They're all back, they're still doing ministry.

Speaker 8 (36:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (36:12):
So that's that's one thing. And the other commonality Dan
that I would say that all of these people meet
and a lot of people aren't going to like this,
but I stand by it. They're not saved. I agree,
they're not saved. A false prophet, a false teacher, by definition,

(36:36):
is unregenerate. So given that, and they meet every biblical criterion,
every biblical criterion, two Peter two says, but false prophets
also arose among the people, just as there will be
false teachers among you. Notice kind of the equivalents. They
are false prophets and false teachers who will secretly introduce

(36:59):
to destructive heresies, even denying the master who bought them,
bringing swift and I could talk about each one of
these phrases, but bringing swift destruction upon themselves. Many will
follow their what their sensuality because of them, the way
of truth will be maligned, the Gospel will be maligned,

(37:21):
reproach will be brought upon the Gospel and the name
of Christ. And in their greed, they will exploit you
with false words.

Speaker 4 (37:30):
And they're greed that that is a perfect picture of
the Word of faith, prosperity, and and and and these
guys that are these false prophets, and Jeremiah Johnson's and
the the the Chris Vallentin's and I mean, that's just
a perfect description of these guys. It's just incredible.

Speaker 3 (37:54):
And so definitionally. With a false teacher slash false prophet.
You're dealing with someone who is unregenerate. Therefore that means
they do not have the end dwelling of the Holy
Spirit of God. Therefore that means there is no restraint
on their flesh other than what any you know, Joe blow,

(38:19):
lost person out there on the street can muster up.
I mean, everybody can muster it up at some level,
even in the lost condition. But you don't have the
end dwelling of the Holy Spirit to help you to
aid in your There's no sanctification going on because they're
not even regenerate yet, so there's no growth in holiness,
there's no growth in Christ. You don't have the Holy

(38:43):
Spirit aiding you and putting to death the deeds of
the body. So there's no restraint on your flesh other
than what any lost person can muster up. And that
is why, that is exactly why we see over and
over and over and over and over and over and
over again in the charismatic movement, these popular preachers whose

(39:04):
lives are riddled with scandal. That's why. Because you're.

Speaker 4 (39:09):
Yeah, which which really gives me a huge amount of
respect for somebody like down Hill who came out and
admitted that she was a false prophet, wrote articles for
Charisma magazine all of that, and she came out and

(39:29):
publicly repented for being a false prophet. And now she
speaks out against it. She's been on the show, uh
a couple you know a few times. But that when
when that takes a lot of guts, and it's just
you know, that shows me right there that uh, these guys,
you know, it's not it's not like these it's hopeless

(39:51):
for these guys. We want you and I both, we
want these these people to repent and come to Christ
and to be for given, because even false prophecy can
be forgiven. You know, that's not the unpardonable sin. But
you know you don't. It's very rare that you see that,
it really is.

Speaker 3 (40:13):
It is it is. It is very rare. But you're right,
God is bringing people out of this movement. I get
emails and even physical letters, you know, almost on a
daily basis from people that God has delivered out of
this movement. That but that Dan, that is the real
work of the Holy Spirit of God is when he's

(40:33):
when the Holy Spirit draws you out of deception. That
that's what the Holy Spirit does. He's not making angel
feathers and gold dust appear out of the sky. And that,
by the way, is another thing with Bethel Church. Just
not even a year ago, they're publicly claiming angel feathers
falling out in their in their services. And I did

(40:53):
a video like public challenge, let's see one of these
angel feathers. Let's sleep. You've got you they say, it
happens dozens of times. Surely you didn't throw these things away.
I mean, they're angel feathers after all, so let's have them,
you know, let's happen. You didn't throw them away with
the used Dixie cups?

Speaker 4 (41:10):
Yeah, right, right, right? Why would you do something like that?

Speaker 3 (41:14):
Right, you know, I mean you know, uh, like I
haven't tested you know, but no, but to see this
is coming from the Bethel staff. They are lying to people,
I mean, bald faced, lying, looking their people in the eye,
Dan and lying to them. Yeah, that's not what a

(41:36):
Christian does.

Speaker 4 (41:37):
That's that's right, that's right. And you see this like
like you're talking about, we see this over and over again.
Now now we can we can kind of transition here.
You've been following the day Star scan, do I take it.

Speaker 3 (41:50):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 (41:51):
And if you look at the history of day Star itself,
you know it was found in a ninety seven two
thousand and five, it became like the second biggest Christian
television network out there. But since you know, I don't

(42:11):
want to say since its inception, but kind of since
its inception, it's had its number of scandals in and
of itself. Twenty ten, Marcus Lamb publicly admits to an affair,
revealing it during a live broadcast alongside his wife. Do
you remember that I do?

Speaker 3 (42:30):
Yep, yep.

Speaker 4 (42:31):
See, God as supposed to have spoken to Marcus Land
Lamb on top of the was it the Mount of
Olives or something like that, and told him I want
you to start a television network or something like that.
You know, hear the audible voice of God telling him
to start day Star. And then in twenty eleven you
had the three former day Star employees file a lawsuit

(42:53):
that they were accusing the network of fraud and financial mismanagement.
Twenty fourteen, Federal Communications FCC launches and investstigation and a
d Star for failure to properly report public file requirements
related to sponsoring disclosures. Twenty fifteen, day Star settles a
lawsuit alleging the misuse of donor funds for their personal luxuries,

(43:15):
including vacation homes and a jet. Twenty twenty one, Pro
Publica investigates day Star's financial practices, revealing large scale purchases
such as a private jet funded by donations. I mean,
we could go on and on here twenty twenty one,
twenty two, twenty twenty three. There's just all kinds of
and then of course we have the whole, uh, you know,

(43:37):
Doug Weiss's Joni Lamb honeymoon where they spent over one
hundred thousand dollars of you know, of the Ministry's money
to finance their honeymoon and live in luxury for the
however long that honeymoon was. So you know, we could
go on and on there. But this is the kind

(43:57):
of stuff that you're seeing in It's.

Speaker 9 (43:59):
Like it's like.

Speaker 4 (44:03):
There's like you said, there is no restraint. There's just
absolutely no restraint. It's just it's all about the flesh.
It's all about fulfilling your and and they'll say, hey,
correct me if I'm wrong, but they'll say, oh, you know,
prosperity isn't all about money, and it's not all about
you know, it's it's it's about you know, we want
to receive finances so that we can bless other people.

(44:26):
And you know, you see that all the time too.
But this is the kind of stuff. And then of
course what's going on right now in Day Star with
the whole Jonathan and Susie lamb Uh situation and the
abuse of their daughter. It's a mess. I mean, it
is a huge mess. And the problem is it is
in front of the entire world. This is what the

(44:50):
world sees and believes. They think this is Christianity.

Speaker 3 (44:55):
You know, Dan, I cannot tell you, brother. You know,
by God's grace, I've been able to preach all over
the world. I've been in I think thirty five different
countries now in the most of those multiple times, or
a lot of those anyway, multiple times, and I can
tell you that what much of the world believes about

(45:17):
Christianity it gets from Christian television. When I was the
first time I went to Uganda, well, I guess the
only time to go. But anyway, I went to Uganda
in twenty thirteen and I'm staying in this potent, little
ramshackle hotel quote unquote hotel, and I'm in there and

(45:40):
I have a friend of mine who's helping me kind
of get my stuff undone or unpacked or whatever. And
so we sit to eat a little meal, and there's
a little black and white TV in this ramshackle hotel room,
and just out of curiosity, we just turned on. I

(46:00):
kid you not. The first thing that came on that
little black and white TV screen when it warmed up
was TBN. And the first person I see on it
is Jen Crouch with her pink hair. Of course, black
and white TV, you couldn't tell it's pink necessarily, but
I'd seen her in the in the States and color
TV side it. But that's the first thing that showed up,

(46:21):
was Jan Crouch and you Ganda. And so so you
have preachers loose use of that term, who watch American television,
who watched TBN, who watched day Star, and they learned
the tricks of the trade by watching American TV, and

(46:41):
they they they ape it, they mimic it, and they
start exploiting their own people. And some of the wealthiest
people in Africa are prosperity preachers. The wealthiest person and
you've gone at least at the time when I was
there was a word of faith, prosperity, preacher, wealthiest person.

(47:04):
So Anne, it is the United States of America has
created this theological poison and we have exported it to
the rest of the world through TBN and through day Star.
And I say this without any personal animosity, because none
of these people have done me personal wrong. But I
genuinely hope and pray Day Star comes crashing down. I

(47:27):
genuinely hope and pray TBN will come crashing down, because yeah,
there's a handful of programs on there that are not
Word of faith, but the bread and butter of TBN
and Day Star and Christian television is this word of faith, prosperity,
gospel poison. And I want it to come down.

Speaker 4 (47:49):
And that was where I was going to go next.
If you go over to day Star Television's website and
you look at the teachers. Now there have been some
that pulled out what the do Jesse plants Jesse to plants,
you know, and uh, I think, uh, who else do
you do you remember who else? There's a couple of
other ones. I can't remember them off my head. Yeah,
they they've decided because the whole scandal to leave day Star.

Speaker 3 (48:12):
Uh there it was Justice Jack Graham, Preston Wood Baptist Church.
They've withdrawn, but they didn't really give a reason. They
just kind of quiet lee withdrew and so don't get
me started on that. But yeah, so and there's been
is it Joyce Meyer, that's the big one, Joyce Meyer?
Just as of yesterday.

Speaker 4 (48:32):
Wow, I didn't know that.

Speaker 3 (48:33):
And that's kind of like, what's the right word flagship programs,
you know, that's she's one of the most popular ones
she with.

Speaker 4 (48:42):
Yeah, yeah, it's like I used to work out. I
used to run a little dairy queen at Chesapeake Square
them all years ago. And uh, if there was a
rarely did it snow there in Virginia. But when it
did snow in Virginia, we we we would wait to
see if one of the flag stores, one of the
big stores like Montgomery Ward or Sears or one of

(49:05):
the big anchor stores, we're gonna shut down. And if
they shut down, we were gonna We're gonna, you know,
we're gonna shut down ourselves. And that's kind of yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So Joyce Myers, is that anchor store there at day Star,
I guess, but uh, but there's still you got Jensen Franklin,
you got Kreflow Dollar, you got Bill Winston, you got

(49:25):
Kenneth Copeland. You got all of these. And I don't
know if you saw the yes sid Roth, Yeah, I
don't know if you saw the video that I did
that where I highlighted the uh stuff from that. You
had your your videos, some of the clips like Kenneth
Copeland's worst uh some of his worst teachings and stuff
like that, just showing that the big problem. Yeah, yeah,
it is. It is a horrible thing what happened there,

(49:48):
the the spiritual abuse and the physical abuse and all
that that took place there. That's horrible and that should
be discussed. But the reason this kind of stuff happens
is because of and you can correct me if I'm wrong,
it's because of, you know, the teaching and so as

(50:09):
you were talking about, as you were talking about earlier
false teachers, especially heretical false teachers, they're not that you know,
they don't have anything restraining the flesh there, you know, So.

Speaker 3 (50:21):
That's exactly right, that's exactly right, Dan. It's the you know,
what exactly happened with Jonathan and Susie Lamb's Little Girl.
I don't know. I think the very fact that so
many programs are pulling off a day Star I think
there there. I think there is seems to me there's
something there. And I take a back seat to nobody

(50:41):
in that. I mean, as far as I'm concerned, you
do something to a kid in that way, capital punishment,
As far as I'm concerned, capital punishment. But at any rate,
this is all of this. Even if this had not happened,
you know, this latest scandal with day Star, Even if
it had not happened, I would still be just as

(51:02):
adamant about the need for day Star and TBN to
shut down because they're exporting poison, theological poison. They're giving
a different Jesus and a different Gospel to the world.
They're bringing untold reproach on the name of Christ. A
lot of their pro especially sid Roth, is just sheer lunacy.

Speaker 10 (51:25):
I mean.

Speaker 4 (51:28):
Some of the some of the stuff you see, Oh
where where? What where do you begin with that? With
that guy?

Speaker 3 (51:37):
Man, you would have to be walking in the wall
stupid to believe practically anything on the sid Roth program.
And and the world is laughing at it there. The
world is mocking this stuff, rightly so. But the problem
is is that's what the world thinks Christianity is. And

(51:59):
you've got these little voices like you and me and
some others like no, no, no, this is this is
not Christianity, this is not Christianity.

Speaker 4 (52:07):
That's exactly right, that's exactly right. So, uh, one of
our one of our conversations that you and I have
had before we press record and then I talked to
you on the phone earlier this week was about Todd
Bentley and you actually confronted Todd Bentley years ago. Will

(52:28):
you just indulge us, tell us the story, just give
us a little bit of background. I actually have a little,
uh you know, a little knowledge about it, but I
want the I want I want the listeners to hear
what happened.

Speaker 3 (52:40):
If you don't mind, no, I don't mind, I don't mind.
So this was back in twenty fourteen at the time
Kathy and I were living was it thirty, maybe it
was third I think it was fourteen. At the time,
Kathy and I were living in Edmund, Oklahoma, and I
was at home, we were watching TV and I see this
thing from Todd Bentley on Christian television and he's doing

(53:04):
this crusade in Tusa, which is about two hours down
the road. And he mentioned that they're live streaming the services.
And I heard him say there are people in seventy
eight or whatever countries around the world watching these services.
And it dawned only like, oh, he's just down the

(53:24):
road and TUSA live streaming it. What a great opportunity
for me to confront him when they can't do anything
about it, like it's not recorded, they can't edit it
out because it's live. And so I called up my
buddy who actually went with me to gone to Mike Miller,
he's a pastor also in Oklahoma, and said, hey, man,

(53:46):
this is what I'm thinking about doing. I want to
meet me there. So we met went to the church,
the Goat Farm that this was being held at. And
so I'm up on the front front row. My friend
Mike Miller's on the other side of the room. I'm
on the front row way over to the left, sitting
by myself. And this service goes on and on and on,

(54:10):
and Todd Bentley's, you know, just up doing his thing,
you know, yammering on about whatever, and uh, and I'm
and he was down on the floor and not up
on the platform, which I was grateful for because I
couldn't climb the steps obviously, but he's down on the floor,
and uh, I dan. I almost talked myself out of it.
I thought, Okay, am I really going to do this?
Am I? I just about chickened out, but I was like,

(54:34):
all right, here I go. So I stood up on
my crutches and I walked up to Todd Bentley and
at the time, initially he had his back to me,
he was facing a different direction, but so walked up.
He you know, since I was there, he turned around
and and he saw me standing there on my crutches,
and he said, well, I'm going to pray for you,

(54:56):
because he thinks I'm up there because I'm crip pulled
up there to be prayed for it to be here world.
And he said, well, I'm going to pray for you later,
you know, later in the service. And I said, I
have a word. And of course, in the charismatic world,
you know, when you say I have a word, people think, oh,

(55:17):
you know, what did God tell you? And so I
now picture this, I'm oh, my crutches, crutch in each hand.
And he's the only one that's got the microphone. When
I said I have a word, he said, is it
a good word? And that I'll never forget it as

(55:37):
long as I live. Is it a good word? And
then the dummy sticks the microphone in front of my face.
Now picture this, Dan, I'm in a room for about
four hundred charismatics, all of whom claim God speaks to them,
Todd Bentley chief among them. God is always giving Todd

(56:00):
Bentley a word of knowledge about this and that and that.
You know, God talks Todd Bentley all the time. But
God somehow forgot to give Todd Bentley a heads up
about what I was about to do to him. So
he puts the microphone in front of my face. Is
it a good word? Gives me the mic or it
gives points in my face? And I said, and I
quoted Matthew seven twenty one through twenty three. Many will

(56:24):
say to me on that day, Lord Lord, do we
not prophesy in your name and your name, cast out
demons and perform many miracles. And then I will declare
to them, I never knew you. Depart from me, you
workers of iniquity. And then I said, this man is
a worker of iniquity, and he said which man? And

(56:44):
I said, you name and Jesus will look at them.

Speaker 11 (56:48):
And he said, well, I never knew you. Depart from me,
you workers of iniquity. This man is a worker of iniquity.
Which fam he preaches them?

Speaker 4 (57:01):
Oh, God bless you.

Speaker 8 (57:02):
This is a true promise, though, yeah.

Speaker 3 (57:06):
And then he turned around and said something weird like
a oh, you know, I can't give you anything because
I got nothing to give, or God bless you. I
got can't give you anything because I got nothing to give,
and just kind of walked off and and you know,
by this time people were some of his the goon
squad was around me. Wow, and they're they're pulling on

(57:30):
my arm to get me to leave. Now I'm standing
on my crutches. If you pull on my arm, that's
like pulling on my leg. I mean you you take
my arm away and down goes frasier because I'm standing
on my crutches. And oh, one little part I forgot
Todd Bentley. At one point he kind of reached out

(57:51):
to to touch me. And you can't see this on
the camera, but I instinctively raised my arm kind of
up just like this. And you can hear Todd Bentley
on the tape. He says, Oh, don't hit me with
your crutch. Oh like, oh God, bless you.

Speaker 8 (58:09):
This is a true promise though, this is a truth.
Don't tell you with your crutch. I'm just trying to
bless you.

Speaker 3 (58:17):
I'm not hitting you. I'm like, I don't want you
to touch me because you're creepy. Yeah yeah, I mean,
this guy's dark, Dan, This guy I really believe, without
any hyperbole, I genuinely believe Todd Bentley is demon possessed
and he was so wicked. There's a palpable sense of

(58:41):
just you know how when you take two magnets and
you try to put the same pole together and they repel.

Speaker 4 (58:47):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what.

Speaker 3 (58:49):
I felt like. He is so dark. It was all
I could do to just stand there next to him.
He is so dark. And but anyway, they and then
later some website wrote an article about it, like saying
that I tried to hit him with my crutch. I
was I was not going to hit him. I was like,

(59:10):
I don't touch me. I don't want you to touch me.
That's what that was. Anyway, So they Todd Bentley walked off,
and they're escorting me down out of the sanctuary, and
I said, as I'm walking out, I'm preaching as loudly
as I can without a microphone, saying, the gospel is

(59:32):
not about health and wealth. This is not the true gospel.
The gospel about being forgiveness, sins, repent of sins, trust Christ.

Speaker 8 (59:39):
And well, thank you sir. I'm not giving you my
annoying because I have help them.

Speaker 9 (59:42):
Begin about thank you.

Speaker 4 (59:45):
The gospel is not about.

Speaker 8 (59:46):
Just a lesson in this prey and how to do yet.

Speaker 3 (59:49):
So anyways, if.

Speaker 8 (59:51):
You would like to text sixty seven zero seventy six
and just send a message get ignited, you can be
on that list.

Speaker 3 (01:00:00):
And walk out, get into the foyer of the church.
And there's a man in a wheelchair. I can see
him in my mind's eye right now, horrifically disabled, like
drooling on himself, disabled, wearing a bib literally and uh,
I pointed my crutch at him. To the people who

(01:00:20):
are walking me out, I pointed my crutch that said,
where's that man's miracle? And and then was left and
then the cops showed up. They actually called the cops
on me what I.

Speaker 4 (01:00:33):
Tell you, It takes a lot of courage to do
something like that, to stand up and to confront somebody
like that. So you're you're to be commended for that
justin I tell you that it takes a lot of courage, sir,
It really does, really does.

Speaker 3 (01:00:45):
Almost talk myself out of it.

Speaker 7 (01:00:47):
But you didn't.

Speaker 4 (01:00:48):
That's the good thing. And now there's video, so now
so which which okay, so if we continue this whole
thing that we're talking about scandal here we go to
Morning Star now and uh, of course Morning Star is
run by Rick Joyner, and uh Rick Joyner is you know,

(01:01:10):
there have been and I've got a list here I'm
not gonna read. I'll just tell you that there have
been a history of scandals within that organization. The most
recent has been, uh the whole Chris Reid debacle there.
You remember what happened there, and and and again. It
always seems to it's it always seems to be you know, like, uh,

(01:01:31):
sexual impropriety, financial, It's just it that seems to be
the main thing. But uh Rick Joyner has a habit
of restoring leaders. He He claims that he is responsible
for restoring Jim Baker back to ministry and uh. He

(01:01:55):
He claims that he had a dream and and in
the dream, God said to him, are you going to
his son had fallen into a well and so and
that's in the dream, his son fell into a well,
and he heard the audible voice of God in the
dream saying are you going to help my son? And

(01:02:15):
his son was referring to Jim Baker.

Speaker 10 (01:02:20):
You know, when I was well many years ago, I
had a dream in which one of my children had
fallen into the sewage ditch and couldn't get up, and
a large crowd gathered around my child and started scorning them,
laughing at them, and my child just kept struggling trying
to get could not get up. It was the most

(01:02:40):
terrible thing I may have ever experienced in a dream.
War awake, you know, you just can't imagine the anguish
of a father to see this happening.

Speaker 3 (01:02:49):
To their child.

Speaker 10 (01:02:50):
And in my dream, this man came up and helped
my child up. He got them cleaned up and on
their way. In that dream, thinking I will give everything
I owned to this person. There's nothing I would not
do for this person. Then I heard the audible voice
of the Little Lords say Jim Baker is my kid

(01:03:11):
when you help him up.

Speaker 4 (01:03:12):
Yeah, so so of course he he and then he
he bought like bought Jim Baker's hotel for like a
million dollars or something like. He's bragging about that. But anyway,
Jim Baker, Bob Jones is somebody that he helped restore
when Bob Jones, you know, was caught it with his
I won't go there, but help me for Bob Jones.

(01:03:36):
And then of course Todd Bentley. So Todd Bentley falls
in what was it the Lakeland Revival, and then he's restored,
and then he falls again in twenty nineteen. I do
remember that. And then you got Rick Joyner once again.
There is a video of Todd Bentley sitting down with
Bill Johnson and Rick Joyner because Bill Johnson, like you said,

(01:03:57):
you know, was was right there with Rick Johner wanting
to restore Todd Bentley to ministry, which just boggles the mind.
But uh, but then and and now just last week
I believe it was we have Rick Joyner at this
conference boosting up Todd Bentley again. So backstory, you remember

(01:04:20):
about a month or so ago, Todd Bentley was really
sick and in the hospital. Do you remember the pictures
and that? Yeah, so so he he actually talks about that.
Let me let me play this clip for you and
then we'll we'll talk about this. But he actually talks
about that right here. So watch this clip.

Speaker 5 (01:04:41):
Okay, come on up here, Todd Todd Bentley. His wife
Jessa is here also, and we love this guy. I
hadn't seen enough of him lately, kind of disappeared. No,
whatever you want.

Speaker 8 (01:04:58):
To do, I don't think I can sit, so I
got to stand. But I'm here on an assignment, and
I've been hearing the testimonies all night long and I
jumping out of my seat with the yes and the amen.
But I don't know that Rick fully knows how morning
Star was instrumental, and not just here but in the

(01:05:21):
falls in this testimony that I want to share really
quickly of how God totally transformed me in the last month.
And I had what I call a near death experience
just a month ago where it was on a Saturday,
and I was here in the Carolinas in my house

(01:05:44):
in my office about five o'clock, five point thirty at night,
and my wife had gone into the kitchen for just
two minutes left me in my man cave office and
I fell unconscious and she thought I had a stroke
or heart attack, maybe an epileptic seizure, and she couldn't

(01:06:06):
rouse me. I was totally gone. My kids were in
the room. What's happened to Dad? And it was within
two minutes. And I don't remember the moment that I
fell unconscious. One minute, I remember I was doing whatever
I was doing. In the next moment, I woke up
at three three three Sunday morning in the hospital. And

(01:06:31):
when I woke up, I was tied down to the
hospital bed in absolute panic because I remember nothing but
at five point thirty being in my house and now
ten hours later, I'm in this hospital room with tubes.
They incubated me because they said I stopped breathing.

Speaker 4 (01:06:52):
All right, So that's his story. I just wanted to
play that first. I got another clip where he's he
because something really miraculous justin happened to Todd while he
was out. It's just an amazing story. And of course,
like you said, Todd, hears from God all the time.
Doesn't matter what kind of lifestyle you live, doesn't matter

(01:07:14):
whether you've you were, you know, in in in moral relationship.
And again, uh, you know, you know, abusive relationship doesn't
matter if you're doing that, you're being spiritually abusive or immoral.
God still God still talks to him because Todd has
the anointing. And I think that's that's the issue. There's
this anointing that has hit that was given to Todd,

(01:07:36):
which is why we had the whole Lakeland Revival. And
then that anointing, according to you know, according to charismatics,
that annoying, you know, it stays right there with you.
And so you know, there you go. You got to
you gotta be lifted right back up into ministry again.

Speaker 3 (01:07:51):
So that's right.

Speaker 4 (01:07:53):
So let's uh, let's take a look at Oh go ahead, No,
go ahead, you were going to say something.

Speaker 3 (01:07:57):
Okay, I thought you were going to play another clip,
but yeah, I don't know if you know this. Then
I actually went to that Lakeland Revival myself, back in
the day two thousand and eight. I went to a
couple of those services in Lakeland. So I was I
was there for the for the meteoric rise of Todd
Bentley and there one of the there was a man

(01:08:19):
there that I saw with my own eyes I saw this.
He kicked a man in his stomach who had stage
four colon cancer.

Speaker 4 (01:08:29):
Kick Todd Bentley kicked the man in the gut. Oh yeah,
so so you witnessed that. I'd heard about him kicking
a putting his boot into a lady's face too.

Speaker 3 (01:08:42):
There's any story he tells that story. He claims that
God told him to kick an elderly woman in the
face with his biker boot. And when I first heard
that claim, awe, he's just making that he didn't act.
I don't think he actually kicked the woman in the face.
But but then I actually but then I saw with
my own eyes him kick a man in the stomach

(01:09:03):
with colon cancer. Wow, the man went to the ground.
Long story short, I'm there on my scooter. I actually
find the guy afterwards who's leaving the leaving the church
when the when the clown show is over and I'm
talking with him. He was there. If memory serves, it
was his nephew that was helping him out. And I

(01:09:26):
told him, Hey, I'm my name's Justin Peters. I'm doing
some research on healing and stuff like that. And I said,
can I can I get your phone number? Name and
phone number follow up with you, and they were very
nice and he did, and so I got there was
like eight different people that claimed to have been healed
by Todd Bentley on this particular night. Eight people that

(01:09:47):
I was able to find later and get their contact information.
And so about one month later I called all eight
of them. I was able to make contact with seven. Uh,
none of the seven were better, four of them were worse.
And the man that Todd Bentley kicked.

Speaker 4 (01:10:10):
Dead, Wow, that is so sad man.

Speaker 3 (01:10:14):
But Todd Bentley claimed to be it's dead.

Speaker 4 (01:10:18):
These wicked men have a lot to answer for unless
they repent.

Speaker 3 (01:10:24):
Man.

Speaker 4 (01:10:24):
I tell you, if Todd Bentley would have died that
during that time, he would have gone straight to hell.
I mean that that is just an awful.

Speaker 3 (01:10:33):
That's where he's at it right now. For her to
die right now, it's where he would go. So would
Rick join her?

Speaker 4 (01:10:39):
Well, I don't you know. I don't know, because it
just hit me. Todd Bentley has been given the keys
to death. So Todd actually, Todd actually may be able
to escape that. So let me show you what he
says in this. In this next clip, watch of.

Speaker 8 (01:10:55):
This my spirit traveled to the valley of the shadow
of Death. You know that scripture and Song's twenty three,
verse four. Though you walk to the valley of the
Shadow of Death, I am with you, my rod and
my staff. The Lord was with me, and I've never

(01:11:15):
seen the Lord like this, but he was a ball,
like an orb of light. Stood over my left shoulder
behind me, and it was Jesus, and he said, look
at your right hand. And I'm standing and looking at
the gates of Hades. I've been to the gates of Heaven.

(01:11:35):
I've had heaven the experiences. I love the open heaven,
But I've never been to the gates of eighties. And
I'm glad I wasn't there for discipline. I wasn't there
for like some great rebuke. I was there to get authority,
because the mantle of authority is what the church needs,
because we've got to stop giving permission to things that

(01:11:56):
we have the authority to shut down the gates of heady.
And that's why we had the key, and the Lord
had the key there. He said, this key is what
I gave to Peter when I told him that he
was to shut down the gates of Hell, that the
Church had the authority. And then I could hear groaning,

(01:12:17):
prisoners groaning. I could hear the shrieks and the screams
of people that were in the worst, deepest darkest And
there was a prison on the other side. There's a
bottomless pit, and there was an angel of Death on
the other side of that. He wasn't an angel, It was

(01:12:38):
a fallen angel death on the other side of the gate,
and number two giant watchtowers and there were demons in
those watchtowers. And I thought, I am right here, is
this a grim Reaper type experience?

Speaker 4 (01:12:52):
And I wasn't.

Speaker 8 (01:12:53):
Permitted to go through the gate, but I looked up
at the gate and Lord said, there's something in your
right hand.

Speaker 4 (01:13:02):
He's got the key to He's got this key. And
now justin what he does, he does Rick Joyner allows
him to do a healing service and so he he
he he does. You know, he does that and so
he is back.

Speaker 11 (01:13:16):
Now.

Speaker 4 (01:13:17):
He did get a lot of flak. Rick Joyner, I
should say, got a lot of flak for this. And
Julie Royce reported on on the you know, she's got
a whole article about that, and it's you know, it
just happened. I think the article just came out I
want to say, two or three days ago, but uh, yeah,
it's uh, it's just I don't know how Rick Joyner

(01:13:40):
is going to live this one down, because there are
a lot of people up in arms about this.

Speaker 3 (01:13:44):
Yeah, you know, And I mean, okay, we're talking about
Todd Bentley. If you can't tell Todd Bentley is a
false teacher, if you can't tell that there is something
unhinged about Todd Bentley, then you should be allowed outside
of your own home without adult supervision. I mean this

(01:14:04):
is a and yet Rick Joinder platforms again. I mean,
how many times do you have to be burned by
this guy? So, you know, Rick Joyner, with all these claims, Dan,
there's there's only two possibilities here. With all these dreams

(01:14:26):
and visions and all these experiences, you know, going to
heaven and going to hell and all this kind of stuff,
there's only two possibilities. You're either you're either intentionally lying
to people, just making it up out a whole cloth,
or if you really are having these experiences, then you
are up to your eyeballs in demonic deception. And neither

(01:14:47):
one of those is a good possibility, is a good option,
and I'd say ninety nine point nine percent of them.
They're just flat out lying. Todd Bentley is flat out lying.
Rick Joyner is flammed outline.

Speaker 4 (01:15:03):
So I think so, And I do you know, sometimes
this is an area where I go back and forth
on because I have listened to I used to. I
don't know if you've ever heard. I don't even know
if it's called Gnostic Teachings dot org anymore.

Speaker 5 (01:15:20):
I don't.

Speaker 4 (01:15:20):
They might have changed their website name, but I think
that the U r L is still the same. But
for a long time I was listening to a lot
of Gnostic lectures and things like that, just to just
to see if I could find some commonalities between UH
Gnosticism and what I was researching in the UH, in
the charismatic movement and in this you know, and and

(01:15:43):
you know, mysticism and all that, and some of these
some of these people have have seen legit visions and
have had legit experiences where you know, they have talked
to their their their their inner God and their or
their the you know, they they've seen these these visions
and other things. And so sometimes I wonder, you know,

(01:16:07):
Satan certainly is deceiving them why would he not deceive
some within the charismatic movement. So I think you're absolutely
absolutely right, But I think a majority of I'm like,
there's just no way. Like Jesse do Planis and Todd
Bentley are both cut from the same cloth. There's just
absolutely no way these guys are telling the truth. And

(01:16:28):
Bob Jones, he's another one, and you know, just yeah, yeah,
But but I wouldn't put it past that some of
them might actually be seeing and having actual visitations, you.

Speaker 3 (01:16:41):
Know, some of them, some of them probably are. I
wouldn't doubt that either. Paul makes an interesting statement Dan
and tewod Timoty three, verse thirteen. He's talking. He says,
I think it's beginning. Verse twelve, he says evil men
and impostors will grow from bad to worse to seeing
and being deceived, deceiving and being deceived. Both of those

(01:17:06):
dynamics can be at work in the same person. You
can actively deceive people with intention, and yet you can
be deceived yourself, and you can have those both of
those dynamics in the same person. And I think now,
I think with some of them, like Robert Tilton and
Don Stewart, I understand there may be another Don Stewart,

(01:17:29):
but like the old Robert Tilton kind of Don Stewart.
These guys are Peter Popoff. These are the bottom feeders
of the Word faith movement. They're the bottom feeders. They're
so bad. TVN won't even put them on, So that's bad.
So some of them there's not an ounce of sincerity
in them. But some of these people they are I

(01:17:49):
believe they they are deceiving and being deceived. I think
Benny hen is a is a perfect example. He intentionally
deceives people. And I know that because I've studied him.
I wrote my master's thesis on him. I've been to
eighteen of his crusades. He intentionally deceives people. And yet
I think there's a part of Benny hen at some

(01:18:09):
level that thinks he's doing the Lord's work. So he
is deceiving and being deceived.

Speaker 4 (01:18:20):
It you know when you talk about non you know,
even non Christians having visions. I remember it's been it's
probably been a couple of years ago. I heard this story.
Is doctor James White tells the story when he was
he was reaching, he was evangelizing Mormons, or he was
ministering to Mormons, was he was in a home of

(01:18:43):
a Mormon family and I'm hoping I'm getting the story right.
But he was talking to them, he was sharing the
Gospel with him and a little girl. Their daughter, I
guess had overheard the conversation, was, you know, near the
upstairs or something. And she came down and she said
to James White, she said, I know what I saw

(01:19:06):
when I was being baptized. I saw the light people
above me, and I saw them, you know, and I
felt the peace and all this. So I know that
this faith is that a Mormon faith is right. And
just you know, so I really believe that Satan really does,
really does do that. I mean, it's just so I
wouldn't doubt it. I wouldn't doubt it at all.

Speaker 3 (01:19:27):
And then one of the things I've said this before,
and I think it's this is a great video to
include this. One of the great ironies in this entire
debate is that charismatic Pentecostal word of faith. Granted, not
all charismatics, you know, fall into the word faith's stuff,
but at any rate, it's most do One of the

(01:19:49):
great ironies is that Pentecostals and Charismatics and in ar
and all this. They would look at people like us,
They would look at you and me and John MacArthur,
and you know, cessationists in general, and they I cannot
tell you how many times I've heard this. They would say, oh,
you don't believe in the Holy Spirit, you don't believe

(01:20:09):
in the power of the Holy Spirit. And I say,
on contraire, as a cessationiist, I seed no ground in
my neumatology and my doctrine of the Holy Spirit to
the charismatics none because as a cessationiist my view of
the Holy Spirit is far too high to believe that

(01:20:32):
the third person of the triangune God can then dwell
a manifestly obvious heretic, theological heretic, proven false prophet, huckster Schkainer.
You know all this kind of stuff. You cannot be
in dwelt by the Holy Spirit, and continue to do
these things year after year after year after year, decade

(01:20:54):
after decade, even after having been called out on it,
and you continue to do it, continue to teach these things.
You continue to exploit the poor and the sick and
the desperate widows for your own personal financial gain unabated.
There's no prick of conscience with these people at all.
They keep doing it. And so that's why I say

(01:21:17):
these people aren't Christians, because if they were truly in
Dwelt and by the Holy Spirit of God, the Holy
Spirit would be dropping them to their knees under such
heavy conviction, and yet there is none. So it is
not we who have a low view of the Holy Spirit.
It's they who have a low view of the Holy
Spirit of God. And that's the great irony. Here is

(01:21:38):
the very people who would say you, don't you have
a low view of the Holy Spirit. No, no, no, no,
It is not we who have a low view of
the Holy Spirit. They do. They're the ones with the
low view of the Holy Spirit of God. My view
of the Holy Spirit is far too high to allow
for this. Amen.

Speaker 4 (01:21:54):
Amen, well said, Well said. Justin thank you once again
for taking time out. You are You're extremely busy. I
mean I text I remember was a couple of weeks ago.
I texted you about doing a video. Oh brother, I'm
getting ready to go. Where were you going to Taiwan?
Was it Taiwan?

Speaker 3 (01:22:13):
Thailand? Yeah?

Speaker 4 (01:22:14):
Thailand? Thailand. Yeah. Oh I'm at an airport, you know, so, uh, yeah,
you're very busy. And your work is just just awesome.
So many people have been helped by your ministry and
I am so thankful for the Lord for what you do.
So thank you, brother, thank you for coming on the show.
I appreciate that.

Speaker 3 (01:22:34):
Too, My absolute pleasure. Dan, Thank you brother, thank you
for what you and Robin do. I'm mutually appreciative of
your work as well.

Speaker 4 (01:22:43):
Amen. Well, folks, hopefully this video has been helpful. If
it has been helpful, I would ask you to please
pass it along. Folks, thanks for watching.