November 11, 2024 • 59 mins
Are miracles supposed to be a normal part of the Christian life? If you’re not casting out demons or walking on water, does that mean you’re missing out on something crucial in your faith? In this video, we're joined by Pastor Chris Rosebrough to dig into one of the most controversial beliefs in modern Christianity: the idea that every believer should be performing miracles.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the Long for Truth podcast. I'm Robin Long.
Join my husband Dan and I as we explore the
roots of the early Pentecostal and Charismatic movements, and we
shine a light on false doctrines and false teachers in
the modern church. Let's get starting.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
You know, one word every thirty five seconds. No passion,
no excitement, no fire, no holy gohoes, no enthusiasm. And
I'm thinking, does this guy even believe what he's preaching.
There's no move of the spirit, and this standard we
have now is so low in the body of Christ.
And I really believe God is saying it's time to
go back to the place where miracles are normal. Come on,
(00:39):
I'm prophising over somebody, where signs and wonders are normalized again,
where deliverance is normalized again, where it's not abnormal to
heal the sick, it's not an abnormal to drive out demons.
And I really believe right now pastors are afraid of
Jesus coming into their church and messing up their nice
little structure. We've removed the altars, we remove them, miracles,
(01:00):
we've removed the signs, We've removed the wonders.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
I think about the man at the tombs.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Everyone in the city is completely okay with this man
being on drugs, with this man cutting himself, with this
man being demon possessed, as long as he's out on
the corner and not messing up our nice church, as
long as he's out in the corner, not messing up
our nice gatherings, as long as he's out in the corner,
not messing out.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
Our nice strategies.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
The Bible says, not only did Jesus cast the demons
out of him, the man was butt naked, y'all running
around at the tombs. But the man now comes with clothes,
is in his right mind, is normal, and everybody is
now freaked out. Nobody cares that he's in on the
corner on drugs, messed up, addicted. Now that he's healed,
delivered in the church, everybody's freaked out. When he comes
(01:44):
back to the city, and the Bible says something, Mario
to me, the saddest, one of the saddest verses. I
won't say the but one of the saddest verses of
the Bible. It says, and the people gathered and they
begged Jesus to leave their city. Now What was Jesus
doing that caused peace people to beg him to leave.
He was doing miracles and he was driving out demons,
and he was threatening.
Speaker 4 (02:06):
This religious system.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
And I'm telling you right now God is launching missiles
to destroy the works of religion. God is launching missiles
people raising them up that I'm telling you are going
to break the structure, break this religion and going to
confront Now I could just jump out of my chair
right here. Are going to confront the influences of darkness
that have so held the church.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
So everyone, welcome along for truth. My name is Daniel Long.
Have you ever been told that the normal Christian life
is a life of miracles? And if you are not
doing miracles, well then you are hindering God's plan for
your life. You're actually hindering God's plan for his church
(02:49):
because apart from miracles, signs of wonders, well, the Gospel
can't be preached in all of its fullness. Yeah, no
pressure there at all. So we're going to be debunking
that teaching today. And I say we because I've invited
my good friend Pastor Chris rosebro Back on the show
to talk about this. To help me debunk this false teaching.
(03:14):
So joining me is Pastor Chris Roseboro, and Pastor Rosebrow
is the pastor of kongs Finger Lutheran Church in Oslo, Minnesota.
You also know him as the Pirate over at Fighting
for the Faith YouTube channel and podcast. Chris, thank you
so much for taking time out of a busy Saturday
(03:35):
and coming on the program. I really appreciate that.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
My pleasure, Dan. So let's let's get into our topic.
This is gonna be fun.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
So, yeah, this is gonna be really good. So I
was telling you earlier that the reason I wanted to
talk about this is because my friend over at, my
friend Jake Elliot over at the Framework, had some questions
about a particular Bible passage and if Heston's Chapter two
that says that Christ has raised us up and seated
(04:05):
us with him in the heavenly places. And a lot
of charismatics would say that that means that because we
are there, we are raised with Him and seated with
Him in the heavenly places, that we can we kind
of have superpowers, we can kind of do the things
that you know, signs and wonders and all that kind
(04:26):
of stuff. So let me ask you it is signs
and wonders and miracles. Is that part of the normal
Christian life?
Speaker 4 (04:36):
I would say no, at least in the sense that
having people being able to operate in signs and wonders
at will on command, that's a very rare thing in scripture.
I would know very few people in Scripture had that ability.
And it's clear when you read the Book of Acts
that that was almost exclusively but not totally limited to
(05:01):
the apostles themselves. Uh So, for instance, in the story
where a girl a woman by the name of Dorcas,
which by the way, don't ever name your daughter Dorcas. Uh.
In the Book of Acts, her other name is Tabitha.
Speaker 5 (05:17):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
She she was somebody who you know, made different things
for the poor and was really rich in good works.
And she got sick and she died, and it just
so happened that Peter was nearby, and so they sent
for Peter, and Peter ended up coming and raising her
from the dead.
Speaker 5 (05:33):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (05:33):
And nowhere in scripture does Peter scold the ladies that
were working with Tabitha and saying, well, you know, listen,
you have this authority, you have the ability to work
signs and wonders. Why did you even bother me? Why
didn't you stretch out with your faith and do your
thing and stuff? That's that's just not there. And so
you can see that Peter should operate in what the
(05:53):
apostle Paul describes as the signs of the apostles. Uh.
And and so the apostles legit had great power, you know,
to perform signs in wonders that they were able to
operate with and really throughout their entire lifetimes, the apostle Paul,
even in the later part of his ministry, was still
able to operate in these signs and wonders. But you
(06:14):
don't see them as normative among other among other Christians
outside of the Apostles of Christ. That doesn't mean that
there weren't some people who could. It's just that it's
very rare that they did and it was not a
normal part of this.
Speaker 6 (06:28):
So uh.
Speaker 4 (06:29):
You know when somebody uses like Ephesians too saying well,
we've been seated in the heavenly realms with Christ, that
that means that we can operate in signs and wonders.
They're going beyond what the text actually says, right, right.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
So what what do you think, why do you think
these guys say that it's so important for Christians to
operate in signs and wonders? Is it because perhaps they
think that while just being a normal, everyree day Christian
fulfilling your vacation or vocation and and the places where
(07:05):
God has called you to fulfill them, is that just
is that just boring? Is it just too normal? I mean,
what do you think?
Speaker 4 (07:11):
Yeah, I I hate to say this. They've turned signs
and wonders into kind of an idol. And in the
name of the gifts of the Spirit, they they literally
focus in on on just a small number of particular
gifts of the Holy Spirit to the expense of the others. So,
for instance, in the in the charismatic churches and in
(07:32):
the naar uh the their their focuses almost exclusively on
tongues prophecy and uh and and and you know, and
gifts of you know, like miraculous gifts like this. But
they completely ignore the actual fruit of the spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness,
self control, things like this. They practically ignore that. And
(07:54):
everything is is pushed on there and in there in
their christology, they they bore on a heresy called the
kanotic heresy, And in fact, I would note that at
times men like Todd White and Bill Johnson have actually
spoken the kannotic heresies outright statement.
Speaker 7 (08:14):
He said, the son of Man can do nothing of himself.
Speaker 5 (08:20):
Do you know that.
Speaker 7 (08:20):
Jesus so restricted his function on earth that he actually
couldn't heal anyone. He couldn't multiply food, he couldn't cast
out devils, he couldn't do any of that stuff because
he had restricted himself to the life of a human
(08:42):
being that would have to be dependent on the Father
through the Holy Spirit. Now, if he did miracles as God,
I'm still impressed, but I'm reduced to an observer. I
stand back and go, that's amazing, God, That's amazing. But
the New Testament was different. Testament shifted where everyone gets
(09:03):
to be involved and that which God is doing, everyone
gets to be involved. Why because now the Holy Spirit
that wants rested on the prophets of old now dwells
in every believer, and he is the spirit of resurrection.
Speaker 4 (09:18):
When it comes to the miraculous.
Speaker 6 (09:19):
If you don't understand this, then you can't pray for
the sick. Why because that was Jesus. I'm not Jesus. No,
Jesus never healed the sick as God. Jesus healed the
sick as a man in perfect relationship with God.
Speaker 5 (09:35):
Jesus was here.
Speaker 6 (09:37):
The Holy Spirit comes down upon Jesus, rests it upon
him and remained. And when Jesus healed the sick, it
was God through Jesus. Jesus said several times, he said,
you know, if you don't believe me through the things
that I say, at least believe me through the works
that I do, for it's the Father who dwells in me.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
And the Canonic heresy is is this belief that Jesus
emptied himself of his divinity and only did what he
did by virtue of him being a man fully yielded
to God. No scripture actually says that. In fact, that's
a denial of the incarnation of what theologians call the
hypostatic union. Everything that Jesus did he did as the
(10:18):
God man. This is just there's no way around it.
But what they want to do is they really have
like a lust for it. It's an idolatrous desire for
signs and wonders to kind of validate their pentecostal experience
or their theology and stuff like this, and so they've
reworked this, and so their big emphasis is on signs
and wonders. But I would note that if you're paying
(10:40):
attention to this movement, the thing that is noticeably missing
in these signs and wonders churches are like verifiable signs
and wonders, and they're kind of missing the whole point.
The Holy Spirit. God wills for us to be sanctified,
that we may be made holy. And the primary work
of the Holy Spirit is to victus of our sin
(11:01):
and our unbelief and empower us to mortify our sinful flesh,
and and the Holy Spirit sanctifies us. And so you know,
for all their focus in on this this tiny little
spectrum of the gifts of the spirit, they ignore hospitality
and mercy and self control and administration and things like this.
(11:22):
And somehow believe that universally we can all speak in gibberish.
And I'm say it that way because they're not actually
speaking in tongues and then and and operate in signs
and wonders. But this is this is a complete mishandling
of the biblical text, and it's putting the emphasis on
the wrong side lable when it comes to the actual
work of the Holy Spirit in the life of a Christian.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Yeah, and I'm and we're going to get to the
life of the Christian and what the normal Christian life is.
But I like to look at some Bible passages now,
because these are some of the passages that they like
to use to say that Christians should be operating in
signs and wonders. So I'm going to start with Mark
(12:07):
chapter sixteen, verses seventeen through eighteen, where Jesus says and
these signs and wonders will accompany those who believe, and
then he it goes on from there and mentions that
they'll cast out demons, will speak in new tongues, and
things like that. So maybe I'm going to have you
share your screen and then we're gonna just take a
look at that. If that's okay, sure.
Speaker 4 (12:27):
So here's the challenge with this is that when we
look at the long ending of the Gospel of Mark.
I don't have this in my accordance software, but you
could pull it up and log us or in your
copy of the ESV. It notes that the oldest copies
of the Gospel of Mark do not contain this long ending.
And I would note that our best and most reliable
(12:50):
manuscripts of the New Testament don't have this portion of it.
And so this is a portion of scripture that we
would say is written again it's anti legomena. So, for instance,
in the in the Gospel of John, you have the
account of the woman who's caught in the act of adultery.
Here's the problem that that particular text does not appear
(13:12):
in the oldest manuscripts, and we have manuscripts where that
that story moves around.
Speaker 7 (13:18):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (13:18):
You know it. It appeared in the Gospel of Luke
and some manuscripts, and it got moved to the Gospel
of John. Uh. And so there's there's questions as to
the veracity of the account itself. And if if you
pay attention to my preaching ministry, I don't ever teach
on it because I don't have confidence that it's in
the original manuscripts that and so this long ending of
(13:39):
Mark is kind of falls into that same category. It
is problematic. And if somebody and then if they just
go with the KJV, we'll say the majority text says this,
that's kind of a silly way of arguing, and I'll
explain why. So the majority text of the Texas Receptis
was put together, uh you know in the time of
actually Luther and the Reformers, and and I would note
(14:02):
it was Erasmus who put it together. And basically what
he did is he took the best manuscripts that he
had at the time and created a single manuscript from
from these other manuscripts. This became known as the Texas
Receptis or the Received Text. But the issue is there
were already variant readings in the in the different texts
that he was using, and and those getting noted. And
(14:23):
so what happened is is that Erasmus put together what
we now we now use like so that was a
version one of what would later become the Nestli Alan.
So the Nestli Aligned Greek manuscript you know that we
have is based upon all of the different manuscripts that
(14:44):
we have now and we have like this ridiculous wealth
of manuscripts New Testament and just keeps getting better and
better with each year. And you know, archaeological finds, we
got older manuscripts, we got we got stuff that dates back.
And I would know in the last fifteen years, there's
been like a major change in like one of the
readings in the in the Epistle of Oh what is
(15:07):
it Jude? In the Epistle of Jude, where it talks
about God saving the people out of the land of Egypt, Well,
we found earlier manuscripts that actually legitimately say that Christ
save of people out of Egypt, and so the old
so your older readings, your older English translations will say
God saved to people out of Egypt in the Book
of Jude. But the newer ones, based upon the newer
(15:31):
manuscripts that the newer manuscript finds that we have, will
say the best ones we have say that Christ saved
to people out of Egypt. So the idea then is
that the textas receptis was put together by Erasmus, and
it was the first version of kind of a critical
text where you try to harmonize the different the different
(15:52):
texts that you have into one. And then that project continued.
So Erasmus did version one of it. We're up to
version twenty eight now, and so you know, go ahead,
I was.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
Gonna ask really quickly, didn't Erasmus have far fewer manuscripts
to work with than.
Speaker 4 (16:07):
What are Yeah? Exactly. That's the point. He had a
lot less to work with. And in the five hundred
years since he put together his Texas Receptis, we have
found far more manuscripts, you know, for instance Sinaticus, Vaticanus
and others. And here's the issue is our best complete
copies of the New Testament and our best copies of
(16:29):
the Gospel of Mark don't have the long ending. And
so when you read in your if you have when
you read in your Bible, it'll have a say. The
best and oldest manuscripts do not contain this portion. So
we can't push too hard on this because when we
talk about in errancy, we we will. We are very
(16:51):
clear that the Bible is an errant. However, there's kind
of an asterisk it's it's it's in errant in the
original autographs, yep. And so we are not saying that
copies have inerrancy. And so that being the case, there's
a really good compelling argument out there that says there's
(17:11):
a we really can't trust this long ending of Mark
because our oldest copies don't have it. And some of
the newer scholarship on the Gospel of Mark have a
pretty good explanation as to why that's the case. So,
for instance, we know that Mark's gospel is intimately linked
with the preaching ministry of the Apostle Peter. Peter and
(17:32):
Mark kind of go together in that sense. And what's
fascinating is is that there's a flow to the Gospel
of Mark that when you get to the you get
to the end where it where it ends, it ends
so abruptly it's kind of weird. So let me show
you where it normally ends. So it's at the on
(17:55):
the day of the Resurrection of Christ. So you have
the Angel saying to the women who came to the tomb,
do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who
was crucified. He has risen. He's not here see the
place where they laid him. But go tell his disciples
and Peter that he is going before you to Galilee.
There you will see him just as he told you.
(18:16):
And they went out and fled from the tomb, trembling
and astonishment had seized them. And they said nothing to anyone,
for they were afraid. That's where that's where the best
manuscripts of the Gospel of Mark, the oldest ones we have.
That's where they all end. And what a completely unsatisfactory ending.
You end the book with a bunch of women being
afraid and leaving what's going on here. But here's the
(18:38):
thing is that the best scholarship and the most recent
scholarship in the Gospel of Mark kind of put it
together that when Peter would go out and preach and
this was his eye this basically this is his eyewitness
account of the things that he saw. It's at this
point that Peter would give further eyewitness testimony or have
others who were traveling with him, the other witnesses give
(19:00):
eyewitness accounts of their eyewitness that they were eyewitnesses of
the resurrection and things like this. That's the natural flow
of it. But here's the thing. As a manuscript goes,
it's an unsatisfactory ending. And it's later, much later, that
we see kind of creeping in this longer ending. And
there isn't just one long ending of Mark. There's actually two.
(19:21):
And so when we get to the part that we
get here, you have to understand that there's not a
really good compelling reason to believe that this was part
of the original manuscript. So when you get you get
to Mark's version of the Great Commission, go into all
the world, proclaimed the Gospel to the whole creation. Whoever
(19:42):
believes in his baptized will be saved, but whoever does
not believe will be condemned. Already, you've got a little
bit of a challenge here, because it appears that baptism
then becomes the necessary component for salvation, whereas if somebody
is here's the gospel, believes in Jesus but isn't baptized,
it introduces the possibility that person isn't even saved, and
(20:06):
that kind of contradicts other portions of scripture. And then
you have these signs will accompany many who believe in
My name. They will cast out demons, they will speak
in new tongues. They will pick up serpents with their hands,
and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not
hurt them, and they will lay their hands on the sick,
and they will recover. I would note here these signs
(20:27):
and wonders legitimately followed the Apostles, but was not normative
for the rest of the Christian Church. And you can
see this in the Book of Acts. It just wasn't normative.
That being the case, it's very easy to basically see
what happened is that some copyists, some monks somewhere in
a monastery, was very dissatisfied with the Gospel of Mark
(20:49):
ending with afraid women running from the tomb, and came
up with some kind of a some kind of a
conclusion to it that summarized what we see in the
Book of Acts. And I think that's the most plausible
explanation for how we get this long ending of the
Gospel of Mark. And the thing is, you can't push
(21:10):
too hard on this thing because there's there's just an
issue and so, and this is not even universally. These
are not universal signs and wonders that we see all
Christians doing. In the Book of Acts. We see the
apostles doing them for sure, and we do see some
people being given the gift of tongues, but picking up
(21:31):
serpents with their hands, we don't see that. With one exception,
that's the apostle Paul and drinking deadly poison. It will
not hurt them. And I would note that many an
Appalachian Pentecostal church has gotten into snake handling and passing
Strict nine for the purpose of proving that you're truly
a Christian, and many an appalation Pentecostal has ended up
(21:54):
in their grave as a result of this practice.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
Yeah, it's staying on this topic just for another moment.
I did a video last week with Pastor Brian Wolfmueler,
and we talked about baptism and he mentioned what Jesus
said in Mark. Here he who believes and its baptized
will be saved. And of course I never said in
(22:18):
that video that that if you're not baptized, you're not saved.
But I just wanted to make sure that people understand that,
uh that is that is the true. No, no Lutheran
ever says if you're not baptized, you're not saved, even
if you know the long ending of Mark stood.
Speaker 4 (22:38):
Yeah, and I would note that Lutheran practice when it
comes to antilegomana texts is that we never draw, we
never use anti legomana texts, uh for what we would
call the CDs doc trina the seat of a doctrine.
Speaker 7 (22:53):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (22:54):
So, so, for instance, James has written against the Book
of Hebrews is written against. We're not saying that they're
not biblical. We absolutely affirm that both texts are. But
when it comes then to putting together doctrine, we never
go to those texts first, okay. And so I would
note that, since I am convinced the scholarly wise that
(23:16):
the long Ending of Mark is legitimately antilogomena, we shouldn't
use that as our CD's doctrine. And I would note
that when it comes to the doctrine of baptism, the
CDs doc triny that the early Church used was Acts
chapter two, Repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of
your sins. You see it in the nicee in Creed.
We believe in one baptism for the remission of sins.
(23:37):
That's quoting Acts chapter two. And so the early Church,
the core text that they went to was not the
Long Ending of Mark, because I don't think it existed.
The core text that they go to is Acts chapter two,
you know, one baptism for the remission of sins. That's
where they go to. And so the fact that they
(23:58):
did not go to this I see it actually kind
of speaks against the authenticity of the Long Ending of Mark,
because you would think that the words of Jesus this clear.
Anyone who is baptized believes in his baptized will be saved.
I mean that would have been that would have been
the core text that anybody would have gone to. But
the fact they went to Acts two instead of this,
(24:19):
I think further argues that there's that this is probably
some some copyist adding to adding to the lung, adding
to the Gospel of Mark.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
Great point. Great point. Now we want to talk. Now
go to a different text, and that's a John fourteen twelve.
We all know this one, Chris, this is a greater
works text. But before we look h but before we
look at that, I want to show you a clip
of Bill Johnson talking about this, and I'll get your
take on that, and then i'll have you if you
(24:49):
would explain John fourteen twelve and what that text is
actually saying. So here is Bill Johnson talking about greater
works verse twelve.
Speaker 7 (24:58):
Most assuredly, this to you, he who believes in me
the works that I do, he will also do. And
greater works than these will he do. Because I go
to the Father. I hear people say that doesn't mean
greater as in greater, It just it means it means
(25:19):
greater in number. Because we're so many. It's now what
it says, though, and the desire is good. It wants
to protect the beauty, the wonder of the incredible nature
of Jesus' ministry on planet Earth. But you don't protect
his image by denying what he says. He said greater.
(25:45):
They touched Jesus's clothing. They were healed for Paul. They
took his clothing, send it to another location. They were
healed for Peter. They just got in his shadow and
they were healed.
Speaker 4 (25:55):
It's called greater.
Speaker 7 (25:56):
Yeah, it doesn't dishonor Jesus because it couldn't have happened
without Jesus making the decree. Jesus declared it is what
made it possible.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
And he's not the only one. You Christ, you you
this is this is a staple text I think that
they like to go to is where Jesus say is truly.
I say to you, whoever believes in me will also
do the works that I do. In greater works than
these will he do? So can we uh you know,
we I'll have you exeget that text for us. Pastor
Chris sure.
Speaker 4 (26:29):
So it's it's he's putting the emphasis on the wrong side.
Leavel By pointing out greater Okay, uh, the question should
be what is Jesus referring to when he talks about works.
And you'll note in the signs and wonders nar group
they think that this is talking about miracles, but John
(26:50):
uses a different phrase. Let me give you an example.
In the Gospel of John, chapter twenty, John writes, verse thirty,
Jesus did many other say mea signs in the presence
of the disciples, which are not written in this book.
But these are written so that you may believe that
Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that
by believing, you may have life in his name. So
(27:14):
when Jesus says you will do greater works than I do,
he's not talking about miraculous signs and wonders. In fact,
if that's what John meant, he would have said, Jesus
would have said, you will do greater signs than I do.
And so to say that Jesus is talking about miraculous
(27:34):
signs and wonders is silly, because here's the deal. In
the history of humanity, there is nobody who performed more
and greater signs and wonders than Jesus Christ. Period. Okay,
when you'll know there were crowds of sick people, the paralytics,
the lepers, the lame, the death the blind. Jesus healed
(27:54):
them all. He raised how many people from the dead?
Speaker 7 (27:57):
Right?
Speaker 4 (27:58):
And did Peter raised as many people from the dead
as Jesus did. Know, And here's the thing, Jesus not
only raised other people from the dead. In the Gospel
of John, you know, when Jesus is challenged regarding you know,
you know, taking the you know, taking the money changers
and whipping them out of the out of the temple,
they said, by you know, what sign do you know?
You know, by what authority are you doing this? And
(28:20):
Jesus says, tear down this temple and I'll build it
again in three days. They said, it's taking forty six
years to build this temple. You're going to be rebuild
it in three days. And the temple he was talking
about was the temple of his body. So Jesus says,
I will rebuild it. And you'll know that when you
talk about the resurrection of Christ, that's what Jesus was
referring to. John makes it clear he was returning to
the temple of his body. That the resurrection is attributed
(28:43):
to the Father, to the Holy Spirit and to the Son.
And so there was a real sense in which you
can say Jesus raised himself from the dead, because the
Gospel of John says that he would. That being the case,
Peter didn't do that, did he? In fact, neither did so,
neither the apostle Paul. And so in the history of Christianity,
in the history of the scriptures, the history of humanity,
(29:05):
nobody has done greater signs than Jesus. Then that's just
just flat out and sitting there saying, well, Peter, you
people came to walk in his shadow. That's not greater
than Jesus. What Jesus is referring to is actually quite simple.
Jesus is talking about his ministry work. And at the
end of Jesus how long was his ministry? Three years?
(29:28):
At the end of it, how many Christians were there?
One hundred and twenty ish? All right, that's it. And
so here's the thing.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
So Peter's first So that at Peter's first sermon in
Acts chapter two, when there were three thousand added to
the church, right right there, just that one sermon.
Speaker 4 (29:49):
What what failed?
Speaker 3 (29:50):
What Jesus said, right.
Speaker 4 (29:53):
That's much greater. I mean, there are already more Christians
after Peter's sermon at Pentecost than there were Christians before Penn.
Cause okay, so, and then here's the thing. How many
years did Peter do his ministry? How many years did
Paul do his ministry? How many Christians were on planet
Earth at the time that the Apostle Paul and the
(30:14):
Apostle Peter were martyred for the Christian faith? Was it
one hundred and twenty? Was it hundreds of thousands? Probably
hundreds of thousands by that time? How many churches did Paul?
Did Paul plant a ton of them? And so the
idea here is that Peter legitimately did greater works than
Christ did. Did he do greater miracles and signs and wonders?
Speaker 7 (30:35):
Not?
Speaker 4 (30:36):
On your life? Did he do greater works? You bet you?
And I would note a faithful past or even today
who has a ministry that you know that is like ten, fifteen,
twenty thirty years, he's even doing greater works than Christ is.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
Yeah, doctor Michael Brown, I'm going to show you a
clip right now, another clip about this. This is this
is one where doctor Michael Brown acknowledges that Jesus that
the disciples didn't do greater works than Jesus, but for
some reason still says that Christians should do greater works.
He doesn't explain how. Let me let me show you
that clip really quick.
Speaker 5 (31:10):
Okay, oh boy, whatever believes in me the works that
I do, will he do. Also doesn't mean again that
every single miracle he wrought that we would do all right.
As I pointed out already, it's not even recorded in
the New Testament, then, any of the Apostles walked down
water aside from Peter, just briefly, right, But nothing recorded
about anyone else walking on water, not recorded that anyone
(31:34):
else still the storm just by speaking, not recorded anywhere
else that anyone turned water into wine. These were miracles
that Jesus wrought. It's not recorded that anyone else wrought
those in the New Testament, the Apostles or anyone else. Yet,
what is recorded in the New Testament is that the
Apostles and people like Philip and Steven who were not apostles,
(31:56):
saw the sick healed miraculously, saw demons leave people miraculously.
There were different ones who spoke in tongues. There were
different ones who prophesied that this was normative in the
New Testament that the outpouring of the spirit was for
all flesh for the last days, for this period from
the death and resurrection of Jesus, really from his beginning
(32:17):
of earth the ministry, through his death and resurrection to
the end of the age. This is now the period
that the New Testament speaks of as the last days.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
And he doesn't, like I said, he doesn't go on
to explain how Christians are doing greater works than Jesus,
but he does at least acknowledge that Peter and Paul
didn't do greater works, but yet we're still surposed to.
Speaker 4 (32:41):
Be doing greater works.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
So I'm not sure how that all, how that all works.
Speaker 4 (32:45):
But uh, I would say that's some that's that's some
slipshod acts of Jesus there, because he's not making the
distinction between signs and wonders and works and what Christ
is referring to. When you understand what Christ is referring to,
he's not it's not talking about signs of wonders. But
being being charismatic and Pentecostal, he has to find a
way to acknowledge that nobody did greater, greater works than
(33:09):
Jesus in the Signs of Wonders department. But that doesn't
mean that signs and Wonders aren't normative. He he's talking
on both sides of his mouth here. Okay. He just
acknowledged that nobody did greater signs and Wonders than Christ did,
full stop. Okay, And I would note you know, I'm
going to keep coming back to this, by the way,
(33:30):
thanks for the work that you do on the history
of Pentecostalism. Uh you know, you know, uh, you know,
I've been recently kind of going back and kind of
fact checking some stuff myself and and Charles Parham. Okay,
after he after he visited Sanford, uh, you know, miraculously
(33:51):
had a gift of tongues you know, come out in
his uh his compound in Topeka, and he legitimately claimed
at the time that it was the restoration of the
gift of tongue and and which means that prior to
that he was a cessationist. Yep. And it's like there's
(34:15):
just no way around this history. Okay. If Michael Brown
says that this is normative, show me all the tongues
speakers that in a consistent line as normative in the
Christian Church for the two millennia after the death of
the Apostles. It doesn't exist. In fact, when when when
(34:35):
you read the history of Pentecostalism, all these things would
claim they claimed they were restored.
Speaker 3 (34:40):
Yeah, there were. There were definitely pockets of people that
you know, I think of Edward Irving and some some
of the others. But it wasn't the norm, and it
wasn't and it was squelched pretty quickly. I mean people,
it just you know, and it was and it was
the same, uh then as it is now. It was gibberish.
Nobody had a real language, you know, even even Agnes Osmond.
(35:04):
She wrote this Chinese looking stuff and they took it
to an actual man who spoke Chinese. He says, I
don't know what this is. This is it's Chinese. Well yeah,
I mean, little tiny pockets in history, but nothing no,
no pentecostal uh, gifts gifts of the spirit like they
claimed that there were. And I would even say that,
(35:27):
you know, those pockets, like I said, those pockets were
proven to be false, you know.
Speaker 4 (35:32):
Yeah, so and not only that, some of these pockets
were like from like clearly heretical groups like the Mormons.
The Mormons, Yeah, they were known for speaking in tongues
before Parham, you.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
Know, absolutely absolutely. It's a lot of crazy history out there.
It's just just and and it's all of the newspapers.
That's the beautiful thing. Anyway, I'm digressing, but yeah, this
is this is what it is. It's we're supposed to
be doing greater works than Jesus. But and we can
see if we look at the charismatics today and you
(36:04):
check them, check their miracles, they're not doing greater works.
There's no you know, it's it's some of the stuff
they do are just down it's just downright ridiculous and silly.
Speaker 4 (36:14):
But let me give you another text real quick because
I want to show you this. Okay, uh, they say, okay,
So here's the question. They said to Jesus, what must
we be? What must we do to be doing the
works of God. It's a pretty good question, right, And
Jesus said, well, you got to walk on water, you
(36:35):
gotta raise the dead, and watch what he says. Jesus answered,
this is the work of God that you believe in him,
whom he has said. And so you'll note that the
work that Jesus does results in people believing in him.
And the work of God is to believe in Christ.
And so Jesus does sit there and go, okay, well,
the works of God are speaking in gibberish, prophesying, lengthening
(36:57):
legs and all this other nonsense. The work of God
is to believe in Him whom he has sent. And
I would note that the story, the story of the
Book of Acts, is not the story of the advancement
of signs and wonders. It's the advancement of the good
news that Christ has bled and died for our sins,
and that people then believe in Jesus. That's that's the
(37:18):
big story of the Book of Acts. And the signs
and wonders they they they were there to attest to
the veracity of the message that the apostles were preaching.
It was not the main point. It was there to
support the main point. And that's the preaching of the
good News of Christ.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
And I'll ask you this, Chris, and in your and
I'm sure you have seen some but in your years
of researching the charismatic movement, how often have you seen
teacher the you know, teachers focus on the gospel itself
over miracles, signs and wonders. They don't I know, no,
(38:00):
I haven't even I haven't either.
Speaker 4 (38:03):
Okay, let me let me pull something else up. Okay,
all right, Matthew, listen to this. Jesus in Matthew twelve says,
and evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but
no sam will be given it. Jesus says that several
times this idea that an evil adulterous generation seeks for signs,
an evil and adulterous generation seeks for signs. Okay, we
(38:25):
are not supposed to be seeking for signs and wonders.
If God wants to work them, that's fine. I've seen
some legitimately miraculous answers to prayer. Am I seeking for
signs and wonders?
Speaker 7 (38:36):
No? But I do.
Speaker 4 (38:37):
I believe that God miraculously heals and does stuff today. Absolutely.
But the thing is, I'm not seeking after these things,
nor do we need them at this point, because all
the important signs and wonders to support the Gospel and
the message we preach, they're all recorded in the Book
of Acts and in the Gospels. So you know, it
(38:57):
reminds me like in the time of Luther, the Roman
Catholic Church, you know, kind of came up with a
clever argument, Luther, what signs and wonders do you provide
to support the gospel that you're preaching? And Luther said,
are you a kidding? It's like the signs and wonders
that support the gospel I preach are in the Bible,
because this is the gospel that's preaching the scriptures. It's
(39:18):
like that, it's all there.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
He would have called anyone who did that enthusiast anyway,
you know, that's right, that's what he would have done.
So yeah, yeah, so let's look at him other text,
can we Matthew ten eight Matthew ten eight, heal the sick,
raise the dead, cleins, lepers, cast out demons. You receive
without paying, give without pay. That is a big, big
(39:42):
one that I hear a lot they say that. See
Jesus says that we are to do this. We're Chris.
This is the normal Christian.
Speaker 8 (39:50):
Jesus Christ is Lord. We have been given authority because
of what he did for us. And this is Luke
nine one to three. When Jesus had called the twelve together,
he gave them and authority to drive out all demons
and to cure diseases. And he sent them out to
preach the Kingdom of God and to heal the sick.
Can I want you to understand this is Christianity one
(40:12):
O one Matthew ten, seven to eight says, the Kingdom
of you. We're supposed to go out heal the sick,
raise the dead, cleansed, lepers, cast out demons from they one.
This is our commission, people, what heal the sick. Notice
he doesn't say pray for the sick, says heal the sick.
(40:37):
I don't ever find a place where Jesus prayed and asked.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
This is the way Christians should be living. They should
heal the sick, raise a dead, cleanse lepers, and cast
out demons.
Speaker 4 (40:49):
Well context, context, context, re, rules of sound, biblic lecture.
Jesus require you to pay attention to this. Matthew ten five.
These twelve Jesus sent out, Which twelve, Well they're listed
right here. Okay, So Matthew ten begins with Jesus calling
his tent his twelve. The names of the twelve apostles
are these Simon who's called Peter, Andrew, his brother James,
(41:10):
the son of Zebedee, John his brother Philip, and Bartholomew
Thomas and Matthew the tax collector, James the son of Alpheus,
and Thaddeus Simon the Zealot, and Judas the scaret who
betrayed him. These twelve, the ones that are just listed,
Jesus sent out instructing them. Go nowhere among the gentiles.
Enter no town of the Samaritans, but go rather to
the lock sheep of the House of Israel, and proclaim
(41:33):
as you go, saying, the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast
out demons you received without paying, Give without pay. Acquire
no gold or silver or copper for your belts, no
bag for your journey or to tunic. So here's the thing.
Everyone in the Pentecostal movements zooms in on these words,
heal the sick, raise the dead, clens the lepers, and
(41:54):
cast out the demons, ignoring the fact that Jesus gave
those instructions to the twelve. But the other part they
completely ignore. Acquire no gold or silver or copper for
your go bag for your journey. Okay they are.
Speaker 9 (42:09):
They're charging ten percent of what you make to do
what they're doing, and they completely they focus on the
casademas out But if this is really for the church,
then we can't pass the plate.
Speaker 3 (42:21):
Oh oh man, good one, very good, very good. So
I want to I want to look at Ephesians chapter two,
four through six and just get the proper interpretation of
that passage, and then let's just talk for a few
minutes before we close out what the normal Christian life
actually looks like. I think that's going to be really
helpful to people.
Speaker 4 (42:42):
Okay, all right, so we're going to focus on this
text first. Notice Ephesians is chapter two versus one through
ten are a unit, and if you read a good commentary,
they will point out that this follows a Hebrew a
Hebraic outline known as a as a kiasm okay, and
a chiasm kind of it. It's not like the normal
(43:05):
outlines that we're used to. A Roman numeral outline. You
begin with Roman numeral number one sub point a and
then number one after that, and it's very linear. A kiasm,
a Hebrew kiasm works with the idea that your beginning
thought is then mirrored in the opposite at the end
of it. So, for instance, you were dead in trespasses
(43:27):
and sins. And then and then watch this we are.
We are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works. Okay,
So the idea here is that the thoughts up here
are mirrored in their opposite down here. And then there's
a middle point to the kiasm, and the middle point
of the kiasm is is that by grace you have
(43:50):
been saved here in verse five. So the idea then
is that when you follow this passage, it'll it tells
you exactly what we're talking about. So it starts off
then first point talking to the Christians in the Church
of Ephesus, describing them prior to them becoming Christians. You
(44:11):
were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you
once walked, and by the way walked here as a
hebraism for how you conduct your life, okay, in which
you once walked following the course of this world, following
the prince of the power of the air, the spirit
that is now at work in the sons of disobedience,
among whom we all once lived in the passions of
(44:31):
our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and
the mind. And we were by nature, children of wrath
like the rest of mankind. Okay, So this then is
the negative portion of it. The negative portion describes us
as dead walking in you know, according to the world
of the Prince of the power of the air, we
were by nature children of wrath like the rest of mankind.
(44:54):
So what's the topic. Well, this is then going to
talk about conversion. How do you go from being dead
to being alie? Well, you and I couldn't do that, okay.
Speaker 7 (45:05):
You know.
Speaker 4 (45:06):
So for instance, you know, ats of Inger Lutheran Church,
we have we have a cemetery, we have we have
a graveyard, and when people in our church die, we
bury them there. But you're gonna note something, and that
is that we never invite them on a Sunday morning.
We never invite the people in the graveyard in for
like coffee and donuts and things like that. We don't
do any we don't have any fellowship with him because
(45:26):
dead people can't do anything, okay, But the only thing
they can do is decompose, and that's kind of gross,
all right. So the idea then is is that this
describing our state because of mankind's fall into sin. And
so when God said to Adam he says, on the
day you eat of the tree of the knowledge of
good and evil, you will surely die. He was correct.
We died spiritually. Although physically we were alive, we were
(45:47):
spiritually dead. And dead is dead, is dead. So how
do you then go from being dead to being alive?
God has to be the one to raise you. So
the transition begins here with the word, but to begin
to erase the negative stuff that's up above. So God,
and you're gonna note here in the Greek God here
is in the nominative, which means the verbs that follow.
(46:08):
God is doing the doing, not you, not me, but
God is doing so God being rich in mercy because
of the great love with which He loved us, even
when we were dead in our trespasses. Here we go.
He made us alive together with Christ. So this first verb,
God is doing the work, because again God is in
the nominative. And this is kind of a mouthful of
(46:33):
syllables to kind of pronounce out sun aid zopoisin is
your verb there, and it means to be made alive
together with So who made us alive? God made us alive?
Who do he make us alive together with? He made
us alive together with Christ, and then you'll know. Then
you got the turning point. By grace, you have been saved.
(46:54):
And then God continues and raised us up with him.
Sune Guero, here is your verb, so God raised us up,
So made us alive together with Christ, raised us up
with Christ. And then your third verb is seated us
with Christ. Sune Kathidzo. Here is your verb, God seated
us with Christ in the heavenly places. But here's the thing.
(47:16):
It's in this verb and what follows that. The charismatics says, well,
because He's seated us with him in the heavenly places,
therefore we can perform signs and wonders. That's called isa Jesus.
It's true that he has seated us together with Christ,
with Christ in heavenly places, but that it doesn't say
what the therefore is as a result of it. So
(47:38):
if you're going to draw conclusions from it, the text
doesn't say that, and you're going beyond the text, you
can't say, but because I've been seated with Christ in
heavenly places, therefore I can perform signs and wonders. No
text says it. You're inserting that into this passage and
this passage isn't about that. This passage is about we
going from dead to being alive in Christ, God raising
(48:01):
us up, God seeding us with Christ, God making us
alive together with Christ. And I would note that one
of these verbs like only appears twice in all of antiquity,
and the second time it appears, let me show it's
in Colossians chapter two. It's a it's a baptismal reality.
Let me show you how I was.
Speaker 3 (48:18):
Going to ask you that that that raised up really
sounds like that is he's speaking of baptism in that
passage there.
Speaker 4 (48:28):
Uh huh yeah. So here, So watch what's going on
here Colaussians two is your cross reference in him. Also,
you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by
putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision
of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism in
which you were also raised with him. So here you
got Sune guerro again raised with Him through faith in
(48:51):
the powerful working of God. So and then you got
and you who were dead in your trespasses in the
uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with So
here you got that that same word soon SuDS o
poi ao uh. That that's the second time those two verbs.
And you're gonna know that those verbs appear in the
context of baptism. So that means by which then God
(49:15):
raised us with Christ and and and uh and you know,
we were raised from the dead and all that kind
of stuff. So the idea here is is that there's
a baptismal reality that the cross reference is referring to.
And you go then beyond the text by saying, well,
because he is seen us with Christ, er go I
can perform miracles. The text doesn't say that, okay, it
(49:36):
just says that we're seing with Christ. The idea then
is that in our baptisms were buried with Christ, we're
raised with Christ, and then we see a baptismal reality.
We're also seated with Christ. That's a true reality. But
it doesn't then infer that we can somehow do things,
you know, command and control the forces of nature like
that Kerr things that she can or things like that.
(49:57):
That's that's just it's not in the text. The text
doesn't say that, so that why but it says that,
so then completing it so that in the coming ages
that God might show the immeasurable riches of His grace
and kindness towards us in Christ Jesus. And then you
have the section that everybody knows for by grace you
have been saved through faith. This is not your own doing.
It is the gift of God. It's not a result
(50:19):
of works, so that no one may boast, for we
are His God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus. And then
here it is for good works which God prepared beforehand,
that we should walk in them. So the segue then
into the question what does the normal Christian life work
look like? It looks like doing the good works that
God has prepared for us to do, the good works
(50:39):
that Christ has called us to do, so that Christian
life looks like and we can talk to the biblically
what those look like. But questions so far, then, on
what Ephesians two one through ten is talking about.
Speaker 3 (50:52):
Well, I was going to ask, if I'm correct, Paul
wrote Colostions and Ephesians both at the same time, if
I'm correct, and that was when he was in prison,
So it would make sense that the Colossians passage coincides
with the Ephesian.
Speaker 4 (51:08):
Passage exactly, and not only that, he uses those verbs
which in all of antiquity only appear in Ephesians two
and Colossians too.
Speaker 3 (51:18):
Yeah, yeah, a lot of that makes a lot of sense.
So let's talk about the normal Christian life, Chris, because
there are a lot of people that you know, are
being pressured into this idea that if you're not doing
miraculous things, if you're not performing signs and wonders, then
you know, well, no pressure, but you're not really living
(51:41):
the Christian life like you should be living. So you
need to be doing them. So living the normal Christian life,
according to what the Bible says, takes a ton of
pressure off the Christian.
Speaker 4 (51:54):
I think, oh yeah, absolutely. So you'll note here verse ten,
we are Godd's workmanship created in Christ Jesus for what
for good works which God prepared that we should walk
in them. So the normal Christian life looks like us
doing the good works which God has prepared for us. Well,
the question then, is this, what are the good works
that God has prepared for us? Well, here we go. Okay,
(52:19):
the same epistle explains all of this. Okay, so you
don't have to use any imagination at all therefore be
imitators of God as beloved children, walk in love, as
Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as
a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. So note sexual immorality,
all impurity, and covetousness not even be named among you.
(52:39):
Note the emphasis on holiness and the mortification of the flesh.
Let there be no filthiness, or foolish talk, or crude joking,
which are out of place. And said, let there be thanksgiving.
For you may be sure of this that everyone who
is sexually immoral or impure, who is or who is covetous,
that is an idolator, has no inheritance in the kingdom
of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with
empty words, for because of these things, around of God
(53:00):
comes upon the sons of disobedience. So then you'll note, then,
what does the normal Christian life look like, mortifying our
sinful flesh with its sinful passions. Look carefully, then, how
you walk, not as wise but unwise, as wise, being
the best use of the time, for the days are evil.
And then here we go talking about vocations. Wives, submit
to your own husbands as to the Lord, for the
(53:21):
husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ
is the head of the church. These are the good
works we're called to to be being faithful in marriages. Husbands,
love your wives as Christ is loved the Church and
gave himself up for her. That means husbands are to
love their wives sacrificially, the same way Christ has loved
(53:42):
his church. Right, and the text continues and goes on, children,
obey your parents, bond servants, obey your earthly masters. Masters,
do not be harsh with your servants, with your slaves.
So the idea, then, the normal Christian life looks like
you doing the good works that Christ has called you
(54:02):
to in the vocations that you are. Are a husband,
Be a husband who loves your wife sacrificially. Are you
a wife? Submit to your husband as the church submits
to Christ. Are you a child? Obey your parents? Are
you an employer? Are you an employee? Do your work
as a lord? Are you an employer? Will be kind
(54:23):
to the people who work under you, don't be harsh
with them. Right, These are the good works we're called
to you. Are you a mom? Changing a diaper is
a good work? Are you you know that means a dad?
Teaching his son how to play baseball. That's a good work.
Helping your kids with their homework, that's a good work.
You know, helping your neighbor. You're gonna know. You don't
(54:43):
have to travel to the sub Saharan Africa and dig
fresh water wells. Your good works are done in the
vocations that God has put you into. And so this
is exactly why we are created in Christ Jesus for
good works, and the good works are laid out for us,
and we know that they're good works because they're at there.
We are bound to do these things because the scripture
(55:05):
tells us to. These are the good works that crisis
called us to.
Speaker 3 (55:09):
Yeah. I love the Doctor on Vocation. Have you have
you ever read Genevieve's work?
Speaker 4 (55:14):
Uh? Yeah, yeah, oh yeah, I'm on fantastic.
Speaker 3 (55:19):
I had him on a couple of years ago and
we talked about that book, and I tell you it
is one of the most freeing doctrines because being told
that you know, you have to do all these super things,
these great things for God or you're you're not really
fulfilling the Christian life, and then finding out that just
driving a truck is a good work. I love the
(55:41):
section where doctor Veth talked about garbage men and how
important garbage the work of a garbage man is, and
how God just uses ordinary ordinary uh you know, everyday
people to care for uh you know, his his his creation.
Speaker 4 (56:00):
Yep, yeah, that's exactly right. Where would imagine how gross
our streets would be without the trash GUIDs exactly? How
about the guy who works at your local sewer plant. Okay,
you think that fresh water is an important thing, you know,
just have that guy go on strike, you know, and
and tell me how much you like the smell.
Speaker 7 (56:19):
You know.
Speaker 4 (56:20):
It's so. The idea here is is that you don't
have to go do something heroic, and you don't and
this isn't and the good works that we are created
in Christ Jesus for again, good works are defined for
us by scripture. So this is there's nowhere a mandate
for Christians to go out and perform signs and wonders.
And you're not really a Christian. You're not doing the
(56:42):
works that God has called to do unless you can
lengthen legs and speak in gibberish. This is nonsense.
Speaker 3 (56:48):
Yeah, let me ask you one more thing before we
close out. Chris the doctrine of the Two Kingdoms. Does
that fit into the normal Christian life? And and can
you kind of explain that just a lot little bit.
Speaker 4 (57:01):
Sure, So the Doctor of the Two Kingdoms has to
deal with the fact that God has instituted two institutions
in the world. The one is the Church, and the
Church has the commission to make disciples of all nations,
baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son of
the Holy Spirit, teaching all that Christ is commanded. So
that's the mandate of the Church. And then governments are
(57:21):
also created by Christ. All governments, it says, are instituted
by Christ for the purpose of punishing the evil doer.
That that's their primary function. And so you can talk
about doing good works either in the church. You know,
if somebody is doing church vocation, that's completely fine. The
church's vocation is to make disciples. The vocation of the
church has nothing to do with politics, by the way,
(57:43):
because the Church is thriving around the world under all
different kinds of political regimes and governments. But all the
governments have the same mandate from God, whether they be
capitalists or communists, and that is to punish the evil doer.
God will for there to be order in society. And
and that by by curbing evil through the government, uh,
(58:06):
and that that gives kind of a free hand for
the gospel to go forward. That's that those are those
are the two vocations. And so you can talk about
doing godly good works as as a magistrate or a
government official. Uh that you know, by by you know,
putting together laws and things like that to punish evil doers.
Where the government goes wrong is when they punish Christians
(58:27):
and uh and let evil doers run run am UK.
Speaker 3 (58:30):
So yeah, yeah, yeah, Chris, what a privilege and it's
it's just a privilege and honor to have you on
the show. I love doing video. I think this is
what our fourth video we've done, uh at least on
on this on this show. But I really appreciate you
taking your time. It's it's it's a tough job to
be a pastor.
Speaker 7 (58:51):
I I am.
Speaker 3 (58:52):
I appreciate all pastors, you know, and I appreciate the
hard work that you do. You do you still pastor
to churches, I know you pastor commens finger But okay.
Speaker 4 (59:03):
So you've got two services that you got to prepare
for you So that's right.
Speaker 3 (59:07):
Wow, all right, well, thank you very much, Chris. I
so appreciate you coming on the show. And Lord Willin, folks, uh,
this has been a helpful episode to you, and you
can pass this along if you know somebody who is
caught up in the teaching that if you're not doing miracles,
if you're not doing performing signs and wonders, you're not
living the Christian life. So Lord Willin, we will see
(59:31):
you next week. Thank you so much for watching.
Welcome to the Long for Truth podcast. I'm Robin Long.
Join my husband Dan and I as we explore the
roots of the early Pentecostal and Charismatic movements, and we
shine a light on false doctrines and false teachers in
the modern church. Let's get starting.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
You know, one word every thirty five seconds. No passion,
no excitement, no fire, no holy gohoes, no enthusiasm. And
I'm thinking, does this guy even believe what he's preaching.
There's no move of the spirit, and this standard we
have now is so low in the body of Christ.
And I really believe God is saying it's time to
go back to the place where miracles are normal. Come on,
(00:39):
I'm prophising over somebody, where signs and wonders are normalized again,
where deliverance is normalized again, where it's not abnormal to
heal the sick, it's not an abnormal to drive out demons.
And I really believe right now pastors are afraid of
Jesus coming into their church and messing up their nice
little structure. We've removed the altars, we remove them, miracles,
(01:00):
we've removed the signs, We've removed the wonders.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
I think about the man at the tombs.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Everyone in the city is completely okay with this man
being on drugs, with this man cutting himself, with this
man being demon possessed, as long as he's out on
the corner and not messing up our nice church, as
long as he's out in the corner, not messing up
our nice gatherings, as long as he's out in the corner,
not messing out.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
Our nice strategies.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
The Bible says, not only did Jesus cast the demons
out of him, the man was butt naked, y'all running
around at the tombs. But the man now comes with clothes,
is in his right mind, is normal, and everybody is
now freaked out. Nobody cares that he's in on the
corner on drugs, messed up, addicted. Now that he's healed,
delivered in the church, everybody's freaked out. When he comes
(01:44):
back to the city, and the Bible says something, Mario
to me, the saddest, one of the saddest verses. I
won't say the but one of the saddest verses of
the Bible. It says, and the people gathered and they
begged Jesus to leave their city. Now What was Jesus
doing that caused peace people to beg him to leave.
He was doing miracles and he was driving out demons,
and he was threatening.
Speaker 4 (02:06):
This religious system.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
And I'm telling you right now God is launching missiles
to destroy the works of religion. God is launching missiles
people raising them up that I'm telling you are going
to break the structure, break this religion and going to
confront Now I could just jump out of my chair
right here. Are going to confront the influences of darkness
that have so held the church.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
So everyone, welcome along for truth. My name is Daniel Long.
Have you ever been told that the normal Christian life
is a life of miracles? And if you are not
doing miracles, well then you are hindering God's plan for
your life. You're actually hindering God's plan for his church
(02:49):
because apart from miracles, signs of wonders, well, the Gospel
can't be preached in all of its fullness. Yeah, no
pressure there at all. So we're going to be debunking
that teaching today. And I say we because I've invited
my good friend Pastor Chris rosebro Back on the show
to talk about this. To help me debunk this false teaching.
(03:14):
So joining me is Pastor Chris Roseboro, and Pastor Rosebrow
is the pastor of kongs Finger Lutheran Church in Oslo, Minnesota.
You also know him as the Pirate over at Fighting
for the Faith YouTube channel and podcast. Chris, thank you
so much for taking time out of a busy Saturday
(03:35):
and coming on the program. I really appreciate that.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
My pleasure, Dan. So let's let's get into our topic.
This is gonna be fun.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
So, yeah, this is gonna be really good. So I
was telling you earlier that the reason I wanted to
talk about this is because my friend over at, my
friend Jake Elliot over at the Framework, had some questions
about a particular Bible passage and if Heston's Chapter two
that says that Christ has raised us up and seated
(04:05):
us with him in the heavenly places. And a lot
of charismatics would say that that means that because we
are there, we are raised with Him and seated with
Him in the heavenly places, that we can we kind
of have superpowers, we can kind of do the things
that you know, signs and wonders and all that kind
(04:26):
of stuff. So let me ask you it is signs
and wonders and miracles. Is that part of the normal
Christian life?
Speaker 4 (04:36):
I would say no, at least in the sense that
having people being able to operate in signs and wonders
at will on command, that's a very rare thing in scripture.
I would know very few people in Scripture had that ability.
And it's clear when you read the Book of Acts
that that was almost exclusively but not totally limited to
(05:01):
the apostles themselves. Uh So, for instance, in the story
where a girl a woman by the name of Dorcas,
which by the way, don't ever name your daughter Dorcas. Uh.
In the Book of Acts, her other name is Tabitha.
Speaker 5 (05:17):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
She she was somebody who you know, made different things
for the poor and was really rich in good works.
And she got sick and she died, and it just
so happened that Peter was nearby, and so they sent
for Peter, and Peter ended up coming and raising her
from the dead.
Speaker 5 (05:33):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (05:33):
And nowhere in scripture does Peter scold the ladies that
were working with Tabitha and saying, well, you know, listen,
you have this authority, you have the ability to work
signs and wonders. Why did you even bother me? Why
didn't you stretch out with your faith and do your
thing and stuff? That's that's just not there. And so
you can see that Peter should operate in what the
(05:53):
apostle Paul describes as the signs of the apostles. Uh.
And and so the apostles legit had great power, you know,
to perform signs in wonders that they were able to
operate with and really throughout their entire lifetimes, the apostle Paul,
even in the later part of his ministry, was still
able to operate in these signs and wonders. But you
(06:14):
don't see them as normative among other among other Christians
outside of the Apostles of Christ. That doesn't mean that
there weren't some people who could. It's just that it's
very rare that they did and it was not a
normal part of this.
Speaker 6 (06:28):
So uh.
Speaker 4 (06:29):
You know when somebody uses like Ephesians too saying well,
we've been seated in the heavenly realms with Christ, that
that means that we can operate in signs and wonders.
They're going beyond what the text actually says, right, right.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
So what what do you think, why do you think
these guys say that it's so important for Christians to
operate in signs and wonders? Is it because perhaps they
think that while just being a normal, everyree day Christian
fulfilling your vacation or vocation and and the places where
(07:05):
God has called you to fulfill them, is that just
is that just boring? Is it just too normal? I mean,
what do you think?
Speaker 4 (07:11):
Yeah, I I hate to say this. They've turned signs
and wonders into kind of an idol. And in the
name of the gifts of the Spirit, they they literally
focus in on on just a small number of particular
gifts of the Holy Spirit to the expense of the others. So,
for instance, in the in the charismatic churches and in
(07:32):
the naar uh the their their focuses almost exclusively on
tongues prophecy and uh and and and you know, and
gifts of you know, like miraculous gifts like this. But
they completely ignore the actual fruit of the spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness,
self control, things like this. They practically ignore that. And
(07:54):
everything is is pushed on there and in there in
their christology, they they bore on a heresy called the
kanotic heresy, And in fact, I would note that at
times men like Todd White and Bill Johnson have actually
spoken the kannotic heresies outright statement.
Speaker 7 (08:14):
He said, the son of Man can do nothing of himself.
Speaker 5 (08:20):
Do you know that.
Speaker 7 (08:20):
Jesus so restricted his function on earth that he actually
couldn't heal anyone. He couldn't multiply food, he couldn't cast
out devils, he couldn't do any of that stuff because
he had restricted himself to the life of a human
(08:42):
being that would have to be dependent on the Father
through the Holy Spirit. Now, if he did miracles as God,
I'm still impressed, but I'm reduced to an observer. I
stand back and go, that's amazing, God, That's amazing. But
the New Testament was different. Testament shifted where everyone gets
(09:03):
to be involved and that which God is doing, everyone
gets to be involved. Why because now the Holy Spirit
that wants rested on the prophets of old now dwells
in every believer, and he is the spirit of resurrection.
Speaker 4 (09:18):
When it comes to the miraculous.
Speaker 6 (09:19):
If you don't understand this, then you can't pray for
the sick. Why because that was Jesus. I'm not Jesus. No,
Jesus never healed the sick as God. Jesus healed the
sick as a man in perfect relationship with God.
Speaker 5 (09:35):
Jesus was here.
Speaker 6 (09:37):
The Holy Spirit comes down upon Jesus, rests it upon
him and remained. And when Jesus healed the sick, it
was God through Jesus. Jesus said several times, he said,
you know, if you don't believe me through the things
that I say, at least believe me through the works
that I do, for it's the Father who dwells in me.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
And the Canonic heresy is is this belief that Jesus
emptied himself of his divinity and only did what he
did by virtue of him being a man fully yielded
to God. No scripture actually says that. In fact, that's
a denial of the incarnation of what theologians call the
hypostatic union. Everything that Jesus did he did as the
(10:18):
God man. This is just there's no way around it.
But what they want to do is they really have
like a lust for it. It's an idolatrous desire for
signs and wonders to kind of validate their pentecostal experience
or their theology and stuff like this, and so they've
reworked this, and so their big emphasis is on signs
and wonders. But I would note that if you're paying
(10:40):
attention to this movement, the thing that is noticeably missing
in these signs and wonders churches are like verifiable signs
and wonders, and they're kind of missing the whole point.
The Holy Spirit. God wills for us to be sanctified,
that we may be made holy. And the primary work
of the Holy Spirit is to victus of our sin
(11:01):
and our unbelief and empower us to mortify our sinful flesh,
and and the Holy Spirit sanctifies us. And so you know,
for all their focus in on this this tiny little
spectrum of the gifts of the spirit, they ignore hospitality
and mercy and self control and administration and things like this.
(11:22):
And somehow believe that universally we can all speak in gibberish.
And I'm say it that way because they're not actually
speaking in tongues and then and and operate in signs
and wonders. But this is this is a complete mishandling
of the biblical text, and it's putting the emphasis on
the wrong side lable when it comes to the actual
work of the Holy Spirit in the life of a Christian.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Yeah, and I'm and we're going to get to the
life of the Christian and what the normal Christian life is.
But I like to look at some Bible passages now,
because these are some of the passages that they like
to use to say that Christians should be operating in
signs and wonders. So I'm going to start with Mark
(12:07):
chapter sixteen, verses seventeen through eighteen, where Jesus says and
these signs and wonders will accompany those who believe, and
then he it goes on from there and mentions that
they'll cast out demons, will speak in new tongues, and
things like that. So maybe I'm going to have you
share your screen and then we're gonna just take a
look at that. If that's okay, sure.
Speaker 4 (12:27):
So here's the challenge with this is that when we
look at the long ending of the Gospel of Mark.
I don't have this in my accordance software, but you
could pull it up and log us or in your
copy of the ESV. It notes that the oldest copies
of the Gospel of Mark do not contain this long ending.
And I would note that our best and most reliable
(12:50):
manuscripts of the New Testament don't have this portion of it.
And so this is a portion of scripture that we
would say is written again it's anti legomena. So, for instance,
in the in the Gospel of John, you have the
account of the woman who's caught in the act of adultery.
Here's the problem that that particular text does not appear
(13:12):
in the oldest manuscripts, and we have manuscripts where that
that story moves around.
Speaker 7 (13:18):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (13:18):
You know it. It appeared in the Gospel of Luke
and some manuscripts, and it got moved to the Gospel
of John. Uh. And so there's there's questions as to
the veracity of the account itself. And if if you
pay attention to my preaching ministry, I don't ever teach
on it because I don't have confidence that it's in
the original manuscripts that and so this long ending of
(13:39):
Mark is kind of falls into that same category. It
is problematic. And if somebody and then if they just
go with the KJV, we'll say the majority text says this,
that's kind of a silly way of arguing, and I'll
explain why. So the majority text of the Texas Receptis
was put together, uh you know in the time of
actually Luther and the Reformers, and and I would note
(14:02):
it was Erasmus who put it together. And basically what
he did is he took the best manuscripts that he
had at the time and created a single manuscript from
from these other manuscripts. This became known as the Texas
Receptis or the Received Text. But the issue is there
were already variant readings in the in the different texts
that he was using, and and those getting noted. And
(14:23):
so what happened is is that Erasmus put together what
we now we now use like so that was a
version one of what would later become the Nestli Alan.
So the Nestli Aligned Greek manuscript you know that we
have is based upon all of the different manuscripts that
(14:44):
we have now and we have like this ridiculous wealth
of manuscripts New Testament and just keeps getting better and
better with each year. And you know, archaeological finds, we
got older manuscripts, we got we got stuff that dates back.
And I would know in the last fifteen years, there's
been like a major change in like one of the
readings in the in the Epistle of Oh what is
(15:07):
it Jude? In the Epistle of Jude, where it talks
about God saving the people out of the land of Egypt, Well,
we found earlier manuscripts that actually legitimately say that Christ
save of people out of Egypt, and so the old
so your older readings, your older English translations will say
God saved to people out of Egypt in the Book
of Jude. But the newer ones, based upon the newer
(15:31):
manuscripts that the newer manuscript finds that we have, will
say the best ones we have say that Christ saved
to people out of Egypt. So the idea then is
that the textas receptis was put together by Erasmus, and
it was the first version of kind of a critical
text where you try to harmonize the different the different
(15:52):
texts that you have into one. And then that project continued.
So Erasmus did version one of it. We're up to
version twenty eight now, and so you know, go ahead,
I was.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
Gonna ask really quickly, didn't Erasmus have far fewer manuscripts
to work with than.
Speaker 4 (16:07):
What are Yeah? Exactly. That's the point. He had a
lot less to work with. And in the five hundred
years since he put together his Texas Receptis, we have
found far more manuscripts, you know, for instance Sinaticus, Vaticanus
and others. And here's the issue is our best complete
copies of the New Testament and our best copies of
(16:29):
the Gospel of Mark don't have the long ending. And
so when you read in your if you have when
you read in your Bible, it'll have a say. The
best and oldest manuscripts do not contain this portion. So
we can't push too hard on this because when we
talk about in errancy, we we will. We are very
(16:51):
clear that the Bible is an errant. However, there's kind
of an asterisk it's it's it's in errant in the
original autographs, yep. And so we are not saying that
copies have inerrancy. And so that being the case, there's
a really good compelling argument out there that says there's
(17:11):
a we really can't trust this long ending of Mark
because our oldest copies don't have it. And some of
the newer scholarship on the Gospel of Mark have a
pretty good explanation as to why that's the case. So,
for instance, we know that Mark's gospel is intimately linked
with the preaching ministry of the Apostle Peter. Peter and
(17:32):
Mark kind of go together in that sense. And what's
fascinating is is that there's a flow to the Gospel
of Mark that when you get to the you get
to the end where it where it ends, it ends
so abruptly it's kind of weird. So let me show
you where it normally ends. So it's at the on
(17:55):
the day of the Resurrection of Christ. So you have
the Angel saying to the women who came to the tomb,
do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who
was crucified. He has risen. He's not here see the
place where they laid him. But go tell his disciples
and Peter that he is going before you to Galilee.
There you will see him just as he told you.
(18:16):
And they went out and fled from the tomb, trembling
and astonishment had seized them. And they said nothing to anyone,
for they were afraid. That's where that's where the best
manuscripts of the Gospel of Mark, the oldest ones we have.
That's where they all end. And what a completely unsatisfactory ending.
You end the book with a bunch of women being
afraid and leaving what's going on here. But here's the
(18:38):
thing is that the best scholarship and the most recent
scholarship in the Gospel of Mark kind of put it
together that when Peter would go out and preach and
this was his eye this basically this is his eyewitness
account of the things that he saw. It's at this
point that Peter would give further eyewitness testimony or have
others who were traveling with him, the other witnesses give
(19:00):
eyewitness accounts of their eyewitness that they were eyewitnesses of
the resurrection and things like this. That's the natural flow
of it. But here's the thing. As a manuscript goes,
it's an unsatisfactory ending. And it's later, much later, that
we see kind of creeping in this longer ending. And
there isn't just one long ending of Mark. There's actually two.
(19:21):
And so when we get to the part that we
get here, you have to understand that there's not a
really good compelling reason to believe that this was part
of the original manuscript. So when you get you get
to Mark's version of the Great Commission, go into all
the world, proclaimed the Gospel to the whole creation. Whoever
(19:42):
believes in his baptized will be saved, but whoever does
not believe will be condemned. Already, you've got a little
bit of a challenge here, because it appears that baptism
then becomes the necessary component for salvation, whereas if somebody
is here's the gospel, believes in Jesus but isn't baptized,
it introduces the possibility that person isn't even saved, and
(20:06):
that kind of contradicts other portions of scripture. And then
you have these signs will accompany many who believe in
My name. They will cast out demons, they will speak
in new tongues. They will pick up serpents with their hands,
and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not
hurt them, and they will lay their hands on the sick,
and they will recover. I would note here these signs
(20:27):
and wonders legitimately followed the Apostles, but was not normative
for the rest of the Christian Church. And you can
see this in the Book of Acts. It just wasn't normative.
That being the case, it's very easy to basically see
what happened is that some copyists, some monks somewhere in
a monastery, was very dissatisfied with the Gospel of Mark
(20:49):
ending with afraid women running from the tomb, and came
up with some kind of a some kind of a
conclusion to it that summarized what we see in the
Book of Acts. And I think that's the most plausible
explanation for how we get this long ending of the
Gospel of Mark. And the thing is, you can't push
(21:10):
too hard on this thing because there's there's just an
issue and so, and this is not even universally. These
are not universal signs and wonders that we see all
Christians doing. In the Book of Acts. We see the
apostles doing them for sure, and we do see some
people being given the gift of tongues, but picking up
(21:31):
serpents with their hands, we don't see that. With one exception,
that's the apostle Paul and drinking deadly poison. It will
not hurt them. And I would note that many an
Appalachian Pentecostal church has gotten into snake handling and passing
Strict nine for the purpose of proving that you're truly
a Christian, and many an appalation Pentecostal has ended up
(21:54):
in their grave as a result of this practice.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
Yeah, it's staying on this topic just for another moment.
I did a video last week with Pastor Brian Wolfmueler,
and we talked about baptism and he mentioned what Jesus
said in Mark. Here he who believes and its baptized
will be saved. And of course I never said in
(22:18):
that video that that if you're not baptized, you're not saved.
But I just wanted to make sure that people understand that,
uh that is that is the true. No, no Lutheran
ever says if you're not baptized, you're not saved, even
if you know the long ending of Mark stood.
Speaker 4 (22:38):
Yeah, and I would note that Lutheran practice when it
comes to antilegomana texts is that we never draw, we
never use anti legomana texts, uh for what we would
call the CDs doc trina the seat of a doctrine.
Speaker 7 (22:53):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (22:54):
So, so, for instance, James has written against the Book
of Hebrews is written against. We're not saying that they're
not biblical. We absolutely affirm that both texts are. But
when it comes then to putting together doctrine, we never
go to those texts first, okay. And so I would
note that, since I am convinced the scholarly wise that
(23:16):
the long Ending of Mark is legitimately antilogomena, we shouldn't
use that as our CD's doctrine. And I would note
that when it comes to the doctrine of baptism, the
CDs doc triny that the early Church used was Acts
chapter two, Repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of
your sins. You see it in the nicee in Creed.
We believe in one baptism for the remission of sins.
(23:37):
That's quoting Acts chapter two. And so the early Church,
the core text that they went to was not the
Long Ending of Mark, because I don't think it existed.
The core text that they go to is Acts chapter two,
you know, one baptism for the remission of sins. That's
where they go to. And so the fact that they
(23:58):
did not go to this I see it actually kind
of speaks against the authenticity of the Long Ending of Mark,
because you would think that the words of Jesus this clear.
Anyone who is baptized believes in his baptized will be saved.
I mean that would have been that would have been
the core text that anybody would have gone to. But
the fact they went to Acts two instead of this,
(24:19):
I think further argues that there's that this is probably
some some copyist adding to adding to the lung, adding
to the Gospel of Mark.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
Great point. Great point. Now we want to talk. Now
go to a different text, and that's a John fourteen twelve.
We all know this one, Chris, this is a greater
works text. But before we look h but before we
look at that, I want to show you a clip
of Bill Johnson talking about this, and I'll get your
take on that, and then i'll have you if you
(24:49):
would explain John fourteen twelve and what that text is
actually saying. So here is Bill Johnson talking about greater
works verse twelve.
Speaker 7 (24:58):
Most assuredly, this to you, he who believes in me
the works that I do, he will also do. And
greater works than these will he do. Because I go
to the Father. I hear people say that doesn't mean
greater as in greater, It just it means it means
(25:19):
greater in number. Because we're so many. It's now what
it says, though, and the desire is good. It wants
to protect the beauty, the wonder of the incredible nature
of Jesus' ministry on planet Earth. But you don't protect
his image by denying what he says. He said greater.
(25:45):
They touched Jesus's clothing. They were healed for Paul. They
took his clothing, send it to another location. They were
healed for Peter. They just got in his shadow and
they were healed.
Speaker 4 (25:55):
It's called greater.
Speaker 7 (25:56):
Yeah, it doesn't dishonor Jesus because it couldn't have happened
without Jesus making the decree. Jesus declared it is what
made it possible.
Speaker 3 (26:09):
And he's not the only one. You Christ, you you
this is this is a staple text I think that
they like to go to is where Jesus say is truly.
I say to you, whoever believes in me will also
do the works that I do. In greater works than
these will he do? So can we uh you know,
we I'll have you exeget that text for us. Pastor
Chris sure.
Speaker 4 (26:29):
So it's it's he's putting the emphasis on the wrong side.
Leavel By pointing out greater Okay, uh, the question should
be what is Jesus referring to when he talks about works.
And you'll note in the signs and wonders nar group
they think that this is talking about miracles, but John
(26:50):
uses a different phrase. Let me give you an example.
In the Gospel of John, chapter twenty, John writes, verse thirty,
Jesus did many other say mea signs in the presence
of the disciples, which are not written in this book.
But these are written so that you may believe that
Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that
by believing, you may have life in his name. So
(27:14):
when Jesus says you will do greater works than I do,
he's not talking about miraculous signs and wonders. In fact,
if that's what John meant, he would have said, Jesus
would have said, you will do greater signs than I do.
And so to say that Jesus is talking about miraculous
(27:34):
signs and wonders is silly, because here's the deal. In
the history of humanity, there is nobody who performed more
and greater signs and wonders than Jesus Christ. Period. Okay,
when you'll know there were crowds of sick people, the paralytics,
the lepers, the lame, the death the blind. Jesus healed
(27:54):
them all. He raised how many people from the dead?
Speaker 7 (27:57):
Right?
Speaker 4 (27:58):
And did Peter raised as many people from the dead
as Jesus did. Know, And here's the thing, Jesus not
only raised other people from the dead. In the Gospel
of John, you know, when Jesus is challenged regarding you know,
you know, taking the you know, taking the money changers
and whipping them out of the out of the temple,
they said, by you know, what sign do you know?
You know, by what authority are you doing this? And
(28:20):
Jesus says, tear down this temple and I'll build it
again in three days. They said, it's taking forty six
years to build this temple. You're going to be rebuild
it in three days. And the temple he was talking
about was the temple of his body. So Jesus says,
I will rebuild it. And you'll know that when you
talk about the resurrection of Christ, that's what Jesus was
referring to. John makes it clear he was returning to
the temple of his body. That the resurrection is attributed
(28:43):
to the Father, to the Holy Spirit and to the Son.
And so there was a real sense in which you
can say Jesus raised himself from the dead, because the
Gospel of John says that he would. That being the case,
Peter didn't do that, did he? In fact, neither did so,
neither the apostle Paul. And so in the history of Christianity,
in the history of the scriptures, the history of humanity,
(29:05):
nobody has done greater signs than Jesus. Then that's just
just flat out and sitting there saying, well, Peter, you
people came to walk in his shadow. That's not greater
than Jesus. What Jesus is referring to is actually quite simple.
Jesus is talking about his ministry work. And at the
end of Jesus how long was his ministry? Three years?
(29:28):
At the end of it, how many Christians were there?
One hundred and twenty ish? All right, that's it. And
so here's the thing.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
So Peter's first So that at Peter's first sermon in
Acts chapter two, when there were three thousand added to
the church, right right there, just that one sermon.
Speaker 4 (29:49):
What what failed?
Speaker 3 (29:50):
What Jesus said, right.
Speaker 4 (29:53):
That's much greater. I mean, there are already more Christians
after Peter's sermon at Pentecost than there were Christians before Penn.
Cause okay, so, and then here's the thing. How many
years did Peter do his ministry? How many years did
Paul do his ministry? How many Christians were on planet
Earth at the time that the Apostle Paul and the
(30:14):
Apostle Peter were martyred for the Christian faith? Was it
one hundred and twenty? Was it hundreds of thousands? Probably
hundreds of thousands by that time? How many churches did Paul?
Did Paul plant a ton of them? And so the
idea here is that Peter legitimately did greater works than
Christ did. Did he do greater miracles and signs and wonders?
Speaker 7 (30:35):
Not?
Speaker 4 (30:36):
On your life? Did he do greater works? You bet you?
And I would note a faithful past or even today
who has a ministry that you know that is like ten, fifteen,
twenty thirty years, he's even doing greater works than Christ is.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
Yeah, doctor Michael Brown, I'm going to show you a
clip right now, another clip about this. This is this
is one where doctor Michael Brown acknowledges that Jesus that
the disciples didn't do greater works than Jesus, but for
some reason still says that Christians should do greater works.
He doesn't explain how. Let me let me show you
that clip really quick.
Speaker 5 (31:10):
Okay, oh boy, whatever believes in me the works that
I do, will he do. Also doesn't mean again that
every single miracle he wrought that we would do all right.
As I pointed out already, it's not even recorded in
the New Testament, then, any of the Apostles walked down
water aside from Peter, just briefly, right, But nothing recorded
about anyone else walking on water, not recorded that anyone
(31:34):
else still the storm just by speaking, not recorded anywhere
else that anyone turned water into wine. These were miracles
that Jesus wrought. It's not recorded that anyone else wrought
those in the New Testament, the Apostles or anyone else. Yet,
what is recorded in the New Testament is that the
Apostles and people like Philip and Steven who were not apostles,
(31:56):
saw the sick healed miraculously, saw demons leave people miraculously.
There were different ones who spoke in tongues. There were
different ones who prophesied that this was normative in the
New Testament that the outpouring of the spirit was for
all flesh for the last days, for this period from
the death and resurrection of Jesus, really from his beginning
(32:17):
of earth the ministry, through his death and resurrection to
the end of the age. This is now the period
that the New Testament speaks of as the last days.
Speaker 3 (32:26):
And he doesn't, like I said, he doesn't go on
to explain how Christians are doing greater works than Jesus,
but he does at least acknowledge that Peter and Paul
didn't do greater works, but yet we're still surposed to.
Speaker 4 (32:41):
Be doing greater works.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
So I'm not sure how that all, how that all works.
Speaker 4 (32:45):
But uh, I would say that's some that's that's some
slipshod acts of Jesus there, because he's not making the
distinction between signs and wonders and works and what Christ
is referring to. When you understand what Christ is referring to,
he's not it's not talking about signs of wonders. But
being being charismatic and Pentecostal, he has to find a
way to acknowledge that nobody did greater, greater works than
(33:09):
Jesus in the Signs of Wonders department. But that doesn't
mean that signs and Wonders aren't normative. He he's talking
on both sides of his mouth here. Okay. He just
acknowledged that nobody did greater signs and Wonders than Christ did,
full stop. Okay, And I would note you know, I'm
going to keep coming back to this, by the way,
(33:30):
thanks for the work that you do on the history
of Pentecostalism. Uh you know, you know, uh, you know,
I've been recently kind of going back and kind of
fact checking some stuff myself and and Charles Parham. Okay,
after he after he visited Sanford, uh, you know, miraculously
(33:51):
had a gift of tongues you know, come out in
his uh his compound in Topeka, and he legitimately claimed
at the time that it was the restoration of the
gift of tongue and and which means that prior to
that he was a cessationist. Yep. And it's like there's
(34:15):
just no way around this history. Okay. If Michael Brown
says that this is normative, show me all the tongues
speakers that in a consistent line as normative in the
Christian Church for the two millennia after the death of
the Apostles. It doesn't exist. In fact, when when when
(34:35):
you read the history of Pentecostalism, all these things would
claim they claimed they were restored.
Speaker 3 (34:40):
Yeah, there were. There were definitely pockets of people that
you know, I think of Edward Irving and some some
of the others. But it wasn't the norm, and it
wasn't and it was squelched pretty quickly. I mean people,
it just you know, and it was and it was
the same, uh then as it is now. It was gibberish.
Nobody had a real language, you know, even even Agnes Osmond.
(35:04):
She wrote this Chinese looking stuff and they took it
to an actual man who spoke Chinese. He says, I
don't know what this is. This is it's Chinese. Well yeah,
I mean, little tiny pockets in history, but nothing no,
no pentecostal uh, gifts gifts of the spirit like they
claimed that there were. And I would even say that,
(35:27):
you know, those pockets, like I said, those pockets were
proven to be false, you know.
Speaker 4 (35:32):
Yeah, so and not only that, some of these pockets
were like from like clearly heretical groups like the Mormons.
The Mormons, Yeah, they were known for speaking in tongues
before Parham, you.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
Know, absolutely absolutely. It's a lot of crazy history out there.
It's just just and and it's all of the newspapers.
That's the beautiful thing. Anyway, I'm digressing, but yeah, this
is this is what it is. It's we're supposed to
be doing greater works than Jesus. But and we can
see if we look at the charismatics today and you
(36:04):
check them, check their miracles, they're not doing greater works.
There's no you know, it's it's some of the stuff
they do are just down it's just downright ridiculous and silly.
Speaker 4 (36:14):
But let me give you another text real quick because
I want to show you this. Okay, uh, they say, okay,
So here's the question. They said to Jesus, what must
we be? What must we do to be doing the
works of God. It's a pretty good question, right, And
Jesus said, well, you got to walk on water, you
(36:35):
gotta raise the dead, and watch what he says. Jesus answered,
this is the work of God that you believe in him,
whom he has said. And so you'll note that the
work that Jesus does results in people believing in him.
And the work of God is to believe in Christ.
And so Jesus does sit there and go, okay, well,
the works of God are speaking in gibberish, prophesying, lengthening
(36:57):
legs and all this other nonsense. The work of God
is to believe in Him whom he has sent. And
I would note that the story, the story of the
Book of Acts, is not the story of the advancement
of signs and wonders. It's the advancement of the good
news that Christ has bled and died for our sins,
and that people then believe in Jesus. That's that's the
(37:18):
big story of the Book of Acts. And the signs
and wonders they they they were there to attest to
the veracity of the message that the apostles were preaching.
It was not the main point. It was there to
support the main point. And that's the preaching of the
good News of Christ.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
And I'll ask you this, Chris, and in your and
I'm sure you have seen some but in your years
of researching the charismatic movement, how often have you seen
teacher the you know, teachers focus on the gospel itself
over miracles, signs and wonders. They don't I know, no,
(38:00):
I haven't even I haven't either.
Speaker 4 (38:03):
Okay, let me let me pull something else up. Okay,
all right, Matthew, listen to this. Jesus in Matthew twelve says,
and evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but
no sam will be given it. Jesus says that several
times this idea that an evil adulterous generation seeks for signs,
an evil and adulterous generation seeks for signs. Okay, we
(38:25):
are not supposed to be seeking for signs and wonders.
If God wants to work them, that's fine. I've seen
some legitimately miraculous answers to prayer. Am I seeking for
signs and wonders?
Speaker 7 (38:36):
No? But I do.
Speaker 4 (38:37):
I believe that God miraculously heals and does stuff today. Absolutely.
But the thing is, I'm not seeking after these things,
nor do we need them at this point, because all
the important signs and wonders to support the Gospel and
the message we preach, they're all recorded in the Book
of Acts and in the Gospels. So you know, it
(38:57):
reminds me like in the time of Luther, the Roman
Catholic Church, you know, kind of came up with a
clever argument, Luther, what signs and wonders do you provide
to support the gospel that you're preaching? And Luther said,
are you a kidding? It's like the signs and wonders
that support the gospel I preach are in the Bible,
because this is the gospel that's preaching the scriptures. It's
(39:18):
like that, it's all there.
Speaker 3 (39:20):
He would have called anyone who did that enthusiast anyway,
you know, that's right, that's what he would have done.
So yeah, yeah, so let's look at him other text,
can we Matthew ten eight Matthew ten eight, heal the sick,
raise the dead, cleins, lepers, cast out demons. You receive
without paying, give without pay. That is a big, big
(39:42):
one that I hear a lot they say that. See
Jesus says that we are to do this. We're Chris.
This is the normal Christian.
Speaker 8 (39:50):
Jesus Christ is Lord. We have been given authority because
of what he did for us. And this is Luke
nine one to three. When Jesus had called the twelve together,
he gave them and authority to drive out all demons
and to cure diseases. And he sent them out to
preach the Kingdom of God and to heal the sick.
Can I want you to understand this is Christianity one
(40:12):
O one Matthew ten, seven to eight says, the Kingdom
of you. We're supposed to go out heal the sick,
raise the dead, cleansed, lepers, cast out demons from they one.
This is our commission, people, what heal the sick. Notice
he doesn't say pray for the sick, says heal the sick.
(40:37):
I don't ever find a place where Jesus prayed and asked.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
This is the way Christians should be living. They should
heal the sick, raise a dead, cleanse lepers, and cast
out demons.
Speaker 4 (40:49):
Well context, context, context, re, rules of sound, biblic lecture.
Jesus require you to pay attention to this. Matthew ten five.
These twelve Jesus sent out, Which twelve, Well they're listed
right here. Okay, So Matthew ten begins with Jesus calling
his tent his twelve. The names of the twelve apostles
are these Simon who's called Peter, Andrew, his brother James,
(41:10):
the son of Zebedee, John his brother Philip, and Bartholomew
Thomas and Matthew the tax collector, James the son of Alpheus,
and Thaddeus Simon the Zealot, and Judas the scaret who
betrayed him. These twelve, the ones that are just listed,
Jesus sent out instructing them. Go nowhere among the gentiles.
Enter no town of the Samaritans, but go rather to
the lock sheep of the House of Israel, and proclaim
(41:33):
as you go, saying, the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast
out demons you received without paying, Give without pay. Acquire
no gold or silver or copper for your belts, no
bag for your journey or to tunic. So here's the thing.
Everyone in the Pentecostal movements zooms in on these words,
heal the sick, raise the dead, clens the lepers, and
(41:54):
cast out the demons, ignoring the fact that Jesus gave
those instructions to the twelve. But the other part they
completely ignore. Acquire no gold or silver or copper for
your go bag for your journey. Okay they are.
Speaker 9 (42:09):
They're charging ten percent of what you make to do
what they're doing, and they completely they focus on the
casademas out But if this is really for the church,
then we can't pass the plate.
Speaker 3 (42:21):
Oh oh man, good one, very good, very good. So
I want to I want to look at Ephesians chapter two,
four through six and just get the proper interpretation of
that passage, and then let's just talk for a few
minutes before we close out what the normal Christian life
actually looks like. I think that's going to be really
helpful to people.
Speaker 4 (42:42):
Okay, all right, so we're going to focus on this
text first. Notice Ephesians is chapter two versus one through
ten are a unit, and if you read a good commentary,
they will point out that this follows a Hebrew a
Hebraic outline known as a as a kiasm okay, and
a chiasm kind of it. It's not like the normal
(43:05):
outlines that we're used to. A Roman numeral outline. You
begin with Roman numeral number one sub point a and
then number one after that, and it's very linear. A kiasm,
a Hebrew kiasm works with the idea that your beginning
thought is then mirrored in the opposite at the end
of it. So, for instance, you were dead in trespasses
(43:27):
and sins. And then and then watch this we are.
We are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works. Okay,
So the idea here is that the thoughts up here
are mirrored in their opposite down here. And then there's
a middle point to the kiasm, and the middle point
of the kiasm is is that by grace you have
(43:50):
been saved here in verse five. So the idea then
is that when you follow this passage, it'll it tells
you exactly what we're talking about. So it starts off
then first point talking to the Christians in the Church
of Ephesus, describing them prior to them becoming Christians. You
(44:11):
were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you
once walked, and by the way walked here as a
hebraism for how you conduct your life, okay, in which
you once walked following the course of this world, following
the prince of the power of the air, the spirit
that is now at work in the sons of disobedience,
among whom we all once lived in the passions of
(44:31):
our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and
the mind. And we were by nature, children of wrath
like the rest of mankind. Okay, So this then is
the negative portion of it. The negative portion describes us
as dead walking in you know, according to the world
of the Prince of the power of the air, we
were by nature children of wrath like the rest of mankind.
(44:54):
So what's the topic. Well, this is then going to
talk about conversion. How do you go from being dead
to being alie? Well, you and I couldn't do that, okay.
Speaker 7 (45:05):
You know.
Speaker 4 (45:06):
So for instance, you know, ats of Inger Lutheran Church,
we have we have a cemetery, we have we have
a graveyard, and when people in our church die, we
bury them there. But you're gonna note something, and that
is that we never invite them on a Sunday morning.
We never invite the people in the graveyard in for
like coffee and donuts and things like that. We don't
do any we don't have any fellowship with him because
(45:26):
dead people can't do anything, okay, But the only thing
they can do is decompose, and that's kind of gross,
all right. So the idea then is is that this
describing our state because of mankind's fall into sin. And
so when God said to Adam he says, on the
day you eat of the tree of the knowledge of
good and evil, you will surely die. He was correct.
We died spiritually. Although physically we were alive, we were
(45:47):
spiritually dead. And dead is dead, is dead. So how
do you then go from being dead to being alive?
God has to be the one to raise you. So
the transition begins here with the word, but to begin
to erase the negative stuff that's up above. So God,
and you're gonna note here in the Greek God here
is in the nominative, which means the verbs that follow.
(46:08):
God is doing the doing, not you, not me, but
God is doing so God being rich in mercy because
of the great love with which He loved us, even
when we were dead in our trespasses. Here we go.
He made us alive together with Christ. So this first verb,
God is doing the work, because again God is in
the nominative. And this is kind of a mouthful of
(46:33):
syllables to kind of pronounce out sun aid zopoisin is
your verb there, and it means to be made alive
together with So who made us alive? God made us alive?
Who do he make us alive together with? He made
us alive together with Christ, and then you'll know. Then
you got the turning point. By grace, you have been saved.
(46:54):
And then God continues and raised us up with him.
Sune Guero, here is your verb, so God raised us up,
So made us alive together with Christ, raised us up
with Christ. And then your third verb is seated us
with Christ. Sune Kathidzo. Here is your verb, God seated
us with Christ in the heavenly places. But here's the thing.
(47:16):
It's in this verb and what follows that. The charismatics says, well,
because He's seated us with him in the heavenly places,
therefore we can perform signs and wonders. That's called isa Jesus.
It's true that he has seated us together with Christ,
with Christ in heavenly places, but that it doesn't say
what the therefore is as a result of it. So
(47:38):
if you're going to draw conclusions from it, the text
doesn't say that, and you're going beyond the text, you
can't say, but because I've been seated with Christ in
heavenly places, therefore I can perform signs and wonders. No
text says it. You're inserting that into this passage and
this passage isn't about that. This passage is about we
going from dead to being alive in Christ, God raising
(48:01):
us up, God seeding us with Christ, God making us
alive together with Christ. And I would note that one
of these verbs like only appears twice in all of antiquity,
and the second time it appears, let me show it's
in Colossians chapter two. It's a it's a baptismal reality.
Let me show you how I was.
Speaker 3 (48:18):
Going to ask you that that that raised up really
sounds like that is he's speaking of baptism in that
passage there.
Speaker 4 (48:28):
Uh huh yeah. So here, So watch what's going on
here Colaussians two is your cross reference in him. Also,
you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by
putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision
of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism in
which you were also raised with him. So here you
got Sune guerro again raised with Him through faith in
(48:51):
the powerful working of God. So and then you got
and you who were dead in your trespasses in the
uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with So
here you got that that same word soon SuDS o
poi ao uh. That that's the second time those two verbs.
And you're gonna know that those verbs appear in the
context of baptism. So that means by which then God
(49:15):
raised us with Christ and and and uh and you know,
we were raised from the dead and all that kind
of stuff. So the idea here is is that there's
a baptismal reality that the cross reference is referring to.
And you go then beyond the text by saying, well,
because he is seen us with Christ, er go I
can perform miracles. The text doesn't say that, okay, it
(49:36):
just says that we're seing with Christ. The idea then
is that in our baptisms were buried with Christ, we're
raised with Christ, and then we see a baptismal reality.
We're also seated with Christ. That's a true reality. But
it doesn't then infer that we can somehow do things,
you know, command and control the forces of nature like
that Kerr things that she can or things like that.
(49:57):
That's that's just it's not in the text. The text
doesn't say that, so that why but it says that,
so then completing it so that in the coming ages
that God might show the immeasurable riches of His grace
and kindness towards us in Christ Jesus. And then you
have the section that everybody knows for by grace you
have been saved through faith. This is not your own doing.
It is the gift of God. It's not a result
(50:19):
of works, so that no one may boast, for we
are His God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus. And then
here it is for good works which God prepared beforehand,
that we should walk in them. So the segue then
into the question what does the normal Christian life work
look like? It looks like doing the good works that
God has prepared for us to do, the good works
(50:39):
that Christ has called us to do, so that Christian
life looks like and we can talk to the biblically
what those look like. But questions so far, then, on
what Ephesians two one through ten is talking about.
Speaker 3 (50:52):
Well, I was going to ask, if I'm correct, Paul
wrote Colostions and Ephesians both at the same time, if
I'm correct, and that was when he was in prison,
So it would make sense that the Colossians passage coincides
with the Ephesian.
Speaker 4 (51:08):
Passage exactly, and not only that, he uses those verbs
which in all of antiquity only appear in Ephesians two
and Colossians too.
Speaker 3 (51:18):
Yeah, yeah, a lot of that makes a lot of sense.
So let's talk about the normal Christian life, Chris, because
there are a lot of people that you know, are
being pressured into this idea that if you're not doing
miraculous things, if you're not performing signs and wonders, then
you know, well, no pressure, but you're not really living
(51:41):
the Christian life like you should be living. So you
need to be doing them. So living the normal Christian life,
according to what the Bible says, takes a ton of
pressure off the Christian.
Speaker 4 (51:54):
I think, oh yeah, absolutely. So you'll note here verse ten,
we are Godd's workmanship created in Christ Jesus for what
for good works which God prepared that we should walk
in them. So the normal Christian life looks like us
doing the good works which God has prepared for us. Well,
the question then, is this, what are the good works
that God has prepared for us? Well, here we go. Okay,
(52:19):
the same epistle explains all of this. Okay, so you
don't have to use any imagination at all therefore be
imitators of God as beloved children, walk in love, as
Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as
a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God. So note sexual immorality,
all impurity, and covetousness not even be named among you.
(52:39):
Note the emphasis on holiness and the mortification of the flesh.
Let there be no filthiness, or foolish talk, or crude joking,
which are out of place. And said, let there be thanksgiving.
For you may be sure of this that everyone who
is sexually immoral or impure, who is or who is covetous,
that is an idolator, has no inheritance in the kingdom
of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with
empty words, for because of these things, around of God
(53:00):
comes upon the sons of disobedience. So then you'll note, then,
what does the normal Christian life look like, mortifying our
sinful flesh with its sinful passions. Look carefully, then, how
you walk, not as wise but unwise, as wise, being
the best use of the time, for the days are evil.
And then here we go talking about vocations. Wives, submit
to your own husbands as to the Lord, for the
(53:21):
husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ
is the head of the church. These are the good
works we're called to to be being faithful in marriages. Husbands,
love your wives as Christ is loved the Church and
gave himself up for her. That means husbands are to
love their wives sacrificially, the same way Christ has loved
(53:42):
his church. Right, and the text continues and goes on, children,
obey your parents, bond servants, obey your earthly masters. Masters,
do not be harsh with your servants, with your slaves.
So the idea, then, the normal Christian life looks like
you doing the good works that Christ has called you
(54:02):
to in the vocations that you are. Are a husband,
Be a husband who loves your wife sacrificially. Are you
a wife? Submit to your husband as the church submits
to Christ. Are you a child? Obey your parents? Are
you an employer? Are you an employee? Do your work
as a lord? Are you an employer? Will be kind
(54:23):
to the people who work under you, don't be harsh
with them. Right, These are the good works we're called
to you. Are you a mom? Changing a diaper is
a good work? Are you you know that means a dad?
Teaching his son how to play baseball. That's a good work.
Helping your kids with their homework, that's a good work.
You know, helping your neighbor. You're gonna know. You don't
(54:43):
have to travel to the sub Saharan Africa and dig
fresh water wells. Your good works are done in the
vocations that God has put you into. And so this
is exactly why we are created in Christ Jesus for
good works, and the good works are laid out for us,
and we know that they're good works because they're at there.
We are bound to do these things because the scripture
(55:05):
tells us to. These are the good works that crisis
called us to.
Speaker 3 (55:09):
Yeah. I love the Doctor on Vocation. Have you have
you ever read Genevieve's work?
Speaker 4 (55:14):
Uh? Yeah, yeah, oh yeah, I'm on fantastic.
Speaker 3 (55:19):
I had him on a couple of years ago and
we talked about that book, and I tell you it
is one of the most freeing doctrines because being told
that you know, you have to do all these super things,
these great things for God or you're you're not really
fulfilling the Christian life, and then finding out that just
driving a truck is a good work. I love the
(55:41):
section where doctor Veth talked about garbage men and how
important garbage the work of a garbage man is, and
how God just uses ordinary ordinary uh you know, everyday
people to care for uh you know, his his his creation.
Speaker 4 (56:00):
Yep, yeah, that's exactly right. Where would imagine how gross
our streets would be without the trash GUIDs exactly? How
about the guy who works at your local sewer plant. Okay,
you think that fresh water is an important thing, you know,
just have that guy go on strike, you know, and
and tell me how much you like the smell.
Speaker 7 (56:19):
You know.
Speaker 4 (56:20):
It's so. The idea here is is that you don't
have to go do something heroic, and you don't and
this isn't and the good works that we are created
in Christ Jesus for again, good works are defined for
us by scripture. So this is there's nowhere a mandate
for Christians to go out and perform signs and wonders.
And you're not really a Christian. You're not doing the
(56:42):
works that God has called to do unless you can
lengthen legs and speak in gibberish. This is nonsense.
Speaker 3 (56:48):
Yeah, let me ask you one more thing before we
close out. Chris the doctrine of the Two Kingdoms. Does
that fit into the normal Christian life? And and can
you kind of explain that just a lot little bit.
Speaker 4 (57:01):
Sure, So the Doctor of the Two Kingdoms has to
deal with the fact that God has instituted two institutions
in the world. The one is the Church, and the
Church has the commission to make disciples of all nations,
baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son of
the Holy Spirit, teaching all that Christ is commanded. So
that's the mandate of the Church. And then governments are
(57:21):
also created by Christ. All governments, it says, are instituted
by Christ for the purpose of punishing the evil doer.
That that's their primary function. And so you can talk
about doing good works either in the church. You know,
if somebody is doing church vocation, that's completely fine. The
church's vocation is to make disciples. The vocation of the
church has nothing to do with politics, by the way,
(57:43):
because the Church is thriving around the world under all
different kinds of political regimes and governments. But all the
governments have the same mandate from God, whether they be
capitalists or communists, and that is to punish the evil doer.
God will for there to be order in society. And
and that by by curbing evil through the government, uh,
(58:06):
and that that gives kind of a free hand for
the gospel to go forward. That's that those are those
are the two vocations. And so you can talk about
doing godly good works as as a magistrate or a
government official. Uh that you know, by by you know,
putting together laws and things like that to punish evil doers.
Where the government goes wrong is when they punish Christians
(58:27):
and uh and let evil doers run run am UK.
Speaker 3 (58:30):
So yeah, yeah, yeah, Chris, what a privilege and it's
it's just a privilege and honor to have you on
the show. I love doing video. I think this is
what our fourth video we've done, uh at least on
on this on this show. But I really appreciate you
taking your time. It's it's it's a tough job to
be a pastor.
Speaker 7 (58:51):
I I am.
Speaker 3 (58:52):
I appreciate all pastors, you know, and I appreciate the
hard work that you do. You do you still pastor
to churches, I know you pastor commens finger But okay.
Speaker 4 (59:03):
So you've got two services that you got to prepare
for you So that's right.
Speaker 3 (59:07):
Wow, all right, well, thank you very much, Chris. I
so appreciate you coming on the show. And Lord Willin, folks, uh,
this has been a helpful episode to you, and you
can pass this along if you know somebody who is
caught up in the teaching that if you're not doing miracles,
if you're not doing performing signs and wonders, you're not
living the Christian life. So Lord Willin, we will see
(59:31):
you next week. Thank you so much for watching.
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