Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hudson River Radio dot Com.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Hello out there in podcast land and beyond, Maxine Margot
Rubin along with my co host Malcolm Berman, and this
is the Many Shades of Green, a program that adds
a dash of green into your life as we engage
in conversations that move to inform, educate, activate, and raise
your eco and also social consciousness in these days through culture, politics, music, art, science, gardening,
(00:47):
planting and community, we hope to inspire you to pick
a shade of green and become a stuard of this beautiful, blue, green.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Planet we call Earth.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
So Hi, We're gonna go with Malcolm Mountain La near Burbank.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
As Neil said, Uh we got hi, June. How are you. Uh,
we're we're kind of.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Neighbors in a way, and uh we got Neil back
in studio and so welcome. Considering what the topic is,
I I this song I picked because it has a
meaning to this in a way, and Joni Mitchell.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
Is one of my favorites in the whole world.
Speaker 4 (01:35):
The page perdised put up a park in love with
a pain hotel, a bootique and a swing in hot spot.
Don It always seemed to go that you don't know
what you've got to List one they realized, put up
a park in.
Speaker 5 (02:00):
The fall the.
Speaker 4 (02:01):
Trees, put him in a cream museum, and we charged
the people's a dollar and a halfiest to see you
don't And all we seem to go that you don't
know what you've got to. Li's gone, the pea Favorite
ice up a pocket he I'm a farmer. Put him
(02:27):
with a dead Tina, Jimmy's boughts on apples, blieve in
a bird Eneries day is done, And all we seem
to go that you don't know what you've got to.
Lit's gone, The pea Favor Ice Upper.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Parking Wow, Joni Ah, I love her so much for
so many reasons.
Speaker 5 (02:56):
Uh So.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Jonny Mitchell's Big Yellow Taxi is a commentary on the
way humans are treating Earth Mother Earth. The song critiques
the destructive practices of consumerism and industrialization, such as the
use of DDT and deporestation, and its core message is
warning against the destruction of the natural world and the
consequences of unchecked development.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
The lyrics they pave paradise.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
And put up a parking lot they encapsulate this theme,
highlighting the replacement of natural beauty with concrete and infrastructure.
We are in the twenty fifth year of the twenty
first century, and we are not heating the warnings of
climate change as we continue destroying the land, the air,
and the water with little care and indifference. We overfertilize
(03:44):
and spray pesticides on our property without any forethought as
to how it affects wildlife and pollinators, as well as
our children, our pets, ourselves. How we treat our lawns
is parallel to how we treat the planet.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
So let's think.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
I think the idea of a perfect lawn, that manicured
lawn that looks more like a rug than a lawn.
What if the perfect lawn isn't green, mode and sterile,
but buzzing with life, color and purpose. That big stretch
of turf grass isn't as green environmentally speaking as it looks.
Rethinking our lawns isn't just about esthetics. It's about restoring balance.
(04:23):
When we trade a bit of turf for native plants,
we create space for life to thrive again, and we
become stewards, not just homeowners. Today we're talking about why
it's time to rethink our lawns and how replacing just
a portion of that grass with native plants can lead
to big benefits for you and the planet. The US
(04:44):
is home to over forty million acres of lawn, more
than we devote to any irrigated crop, which is mind blowing.
That's a lot of mowing, watering, and fertilizing. Lawns might
look neat, but they're ecological deserts. They don't provide food
or shelter for wildlife. They goes a water, especially in
places where water is already scarce, and they often need
(05:05):
chemical fertilizers and pesticides that run it often too our
water ways. Plus all that mowing gas powered lawn equipment,
it is a big source of carbon emissions and air pollution.
We want people to join the less lawn, More Life
movement and to talk about this. We have June Boil,
the project lead for the National Less Lawn Moral Life Challenge.
(05:28):
She is President of Circle Consulting, where she specializes in
strategic communication and organizational effectiveness. June's journey into native plant
advocacy began as a participant in the first Less Lawn
Mowreer Life Challenge three years ago, trying to get the
name in as you can tell she started and it
(05:49):
was a desire when she started this to learn and involve.
Evolved into deep involvement. With the campaign's growth from a
small Westchester County competition to a national movement. She strives
to help every day rewilders make meaningful changes in their
own backyards. I'm just going to point out she's a
member of the Newcastle Conservation Board here in Chappaqua, New York,
(06:14):
and she's.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
She you live on a fort.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
She lives on a former horse farm dating back to
seventeen seventy. That alone is insane where or great? It's
great actually where she continues to transform her landscape one
native plant at a time, battling two hundred and fifty
five years of non native plantings in the process. I mean,
we're gonna have to quickly talk about this, so June, welcome, welcome, welcome.
(06:41):
It's so great to have you, and I just will
ask the first question to get it out of the way,
which is a drum roll. What is your shade of
green at the moment?
Speaker 5 (06:54):
Okay, Well, first of all, thank you all for having
me here. I'm excited to talk about all of the
sweet you. My favorite shade of green, I love all
shades of green. I'm sure everybody says that coming onto
the show, but it's always been sage green as one
of my favorites. But sage isn't a native plant right
(07:15):
at least particular area, So I am going with the
same color though, that sort of silvery green color. And
I thought i'd talk about a plant that I'm recently
having a lot of fun with in my yard and
discovering it more and more as I've let the grass
go away. Is a plant called pussy toes or antennaria,
(07:40):
and it's actually a really it's a beautiful silvery color,
and it is actually the host plant for the American
painted lady butterfly, a native butterfly. That butterfly actually looks
a lot like a monarch. They have similar coloring, slightly
different mark mars. But it's a wonderful, low growing groundcover
(08:04):
and spreads easily, and it's a lovely turf substitute. Not
for massive areas, but it peaks up in all sorts
of lovely little places, and it's got a wonderful foliage.
That's my green for today.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
That's a great green, and that's it.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
And you know, in terms of people always just think
in terms of you know grass, you know what grass
am I having? And it's the usual suspects, right, And
in terms of I think the you know, water use, Yes,
lots of water use. And I always think of Palm Springs,
which is near Mountaolm's area that they have put in
(08:40):
all these golf courses and they're using water to the
you know, so much water they they've been were having
problems that it was and it was changing the atmosphere.
I mean literally it was causing I don't know what
it is now, but I remember when I visited there
they were trying to figure out what to do.
Speaker 5 (09:00):
Was just recently there and said she was horrified at
the state of the dry river beds, and it's just
it's a it's a real crisis they're dealing with.
Speaker 6 (09:11):
Just before the show, and I was talking to Max
about you being on, I was talking about it. In
Los Angeles for a long time, they were planting succulents
and they were saying, don't put down lawns, don't put
grass lawns. Put like peples type of thing, and it
looks as beautiful.
Speaker 5 (09:31):
That's a really good point, Malcolm, because I think one
of the things we're trying to get people to do
is rethink the idea of what's beautiful. We've been trained
or socialized to think that the American lawn and traditional
horticultural approaches to landscaping is a thing of beauty, and
in some cases it can be, but it is. We're
(09:54):
trying to get people to rethink that succulents look really
cool and using stone and and interesting uh materials from
your yard that can actually offer really interesting architectural detail
if you want landscape architectural details and h depth and
(10:14):
and all of that also provides habitat. So yeah, I
know Los Angeles has really been focused on that for
some time. Southern California for many years.
Speaker 6 (10:24):
I didn't didn't do not like and I still don't
manicure gardens. I like gardens that whatever grows are there,
grows are there, and it all goes into you know,
one big picture.
Speaker 5 (10:38):
Yeah. Yeah, and you know there are people I think
there's there are there's the spectrum. Right, you can have
something that looks very wild and very beautiful in the
right setting, and then something a little more intentionally designed
can work in communities where that is more appealing, or
you don't really tick off your neighbors too much. So
(11:00):
they are all different ways you can approach native native
plantings and reducing the size of your lawn for all
the reasons Maxine you said, they really are a desert.
They do, they offer no value, They degrade the soil.
They require therefore all these additives, chemical dangerous toxins to
(11:22):
be put into your soil to keep it all going.
And why not go with something that doesn't require all
of that. It just costs less and make you know,
less money, less, water less effort. It takes a little
bit of doing in beginning to get it going on
the native side.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
But okay, before we talk about here in the east,
you know coast, I mean, Malcolm's out west. Is there
a challenge out there? Is I mean, is there anything
that you guys are doing just because we go you know,
all we go around the world, so you know, just
this is not just locally. So what's out there? Anything? Quickly?
Speaker 5 (11:58):
Are you asking Malcolm orre you asking?
Speaker 3 (12:00):
I'm asking you?
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Is there?
Speaker 5 (12:02):
So? The Less Loan War Life Challenge started locally here
in Westchester County in three years ago and started as
a pilot program. And I was about seventy five initial
participants in it. I was one of those participants, and
then the next year they it was like a fun
(12:24):
thing to do and there was some science behind it.
We were having some individuals. I'll get to your question
in a second, but I wanted to.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Give a little background, no, give background on the program.
Speaker 5 (12:33):
So it started here on the East coast in Westchester County,
which is a suburb right outside of New York and
suburb suburban county right outside of New York City. And
so seventy five people got together and we're part of
this pilot program of the Planet Wild team. The Planet
(12:54):
Wild is a local ecological landscaping organization that is the
host of this anual challenge. And they came to my
yard and assessed. They took an inventory basically of all
my native plants and my non native plants, and my
native bugs and insects and pollinators and birds and worms
(13:17):
and whatever they could find. How large I have about
an acre and a half and woo woods in the back,
and it used to be much larger when it was
a horse farm, but it was parceled off as many
of these older properties have been over years. And so
they did a whole assessment, and they came back and
(13:37):
monitored it some more. So it was a very hands
on a pilot program that they did. The next year,
everybody kept saying, let's do it again, Let's do it again,
so they turned it into more They wanted to expand
it to more than the initial seventy five participants, and
(13:58):
so started promoting it much more more locally, you know,
beyond our little county and starting to expand the promotion,
but also making it a little more of doing your
own self assessment, so using the eye Naturalist app and
doing your observations and trying to figure out, you know,
what are your baseline and what was you know, how
(14:18):
much are you going to do and giving you some
goals each week. The interesting thing is we thought it
would stay roughly in our area, but because of social
media and influencers and people who got interested, it spread.
The new spread, so suddenly we had people from around
the country participating. So instead of our target I think
was like two hundred participants for last year, and it
(14:41):
was sixteen hundred across the country before we even knew it.
So this year the goal is to consciously go national,
and our goal is to have ten thousand participants across
the country, and we have representatives from all over ward
almost at seventy five hundred participants. We'd love to get
(15:03):
to that ten thousand mark. But so that was the
long winded way of answering your question. We are in
on the West coast, we are in all parts of
the country. There are pockets that are much more active
in the Midwest. The prairie up Benjamin Vault, I think
(15:23):
is the I don't know if I'm pronouncing his name correctly,
but he's a big driver of the resurgence of native
prairie plants to re establish those in the Midwest. So
there's a really active group there. But we have pockets
all over the country of people who are experienced, people
who are brand new to this, who are mildly curious
(15:45):
and want to learn. That's our focus of the campaign
is to really make it. Our target audience is people
who are curious and want to get involved and start
making this shift and make it easy and simple for them.
But we have plenty of people who are much more experienced,
and it's great because it's a wonderful community of sharing
knowledge and experience.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Yeah, definitely, people need to just quickly give us the
because what we'll do throughout the show.
Speaker 3 (16:10):
What's the.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Website that people can check it? You know, I want
to inter disperse it during the conversation. Where would people
go to just do that?
Speaker 5 (16:19):
Yes, so it is very simple. It is called www.
Less lawnmorelife dot com. And there's a big pink button
that says join the challenge and you can just join
it and you'll instantly get invited, you'll get communications. There's
other information on the website you can find out. So
and it's not too late to start. We're just entering
(16:42):
week five. It's a twelve week challenge, but you can
catch up very quickly and easily. We have lots of
interesting videos and weekly micro challenges to help you along
your journey.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
Yeah, it's really cool. I know you guys. You were
on the Today Show recently. Correct not me, but.
Speaker 5 (17:01):
Our the CEO of Planet Wild who was on there. Yeah,
so Joanna Hall, CEO of Wild and uh Murray Fisher
who is he's our chief naturalist.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
I know Murray Fisher.
Speaker 5 (17:16):
Yes, I had him on before Famous, Yes, he.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Was, he was on. He was head of the Harbor
School and and also work with the It was it
the billion dollar oyster build, the billion oyster project, right.
Speaker 5 (17:30):
The Oster project restoring the oyster beds in the harbor.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
Right, that's huge.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
It's just very it's a very big, big project because
it can very much help.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
I mean, New York is sinking. We're gonna have issues.
I don't know. It's like, I don't know. All these
tall buildings are like starting to go into the ground.
Speaker 6 (17:52):
But so you have all these buildings are building along
the harbor of the coast that are sinking, and that they.
Speaker 5 (18:00):
Have to build on the New Jersey side too.
Speaker 6 (18:03):
From what it's actually, they're artificial islands they build.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (18:08):
Yeah, Now, the thing I had.
Speaker 6 (18:11):
Which I asked Max, she said, I should ask you,
when if we introduce new plants that aren't native to
our area, how long does it take before they acclimate
themselves and become receptive to you know, the soil and
everything in our areas.
Speaker 5 (18:29):
So you're saying introducing non native plants, right, I mean it's.
Speaker 6 (18:33):
A small world now, and people from all over the
world are coming.
Speaker 5 (18:36):
That's part of the reason why.
Speaker 6 (18:37):
And they're bringing their own plants and their whole thing
and and planting because they want to feel at home.
Speaker 5 (18:43):
There are some plants that have become I'm not I'm
not a scientist. The caveat here is I'm an enthusiast,
and I don't have the technical expertise or the scientific
background about this. But from what I understand, there are
certain plants that have become naturalized over the centuries that
(19:03):
you know, think about the colonial settlers who came here
and brought plants hundreds of years ago to the area,
and there's there is always you know, people migrated to
through these areas before then. But the whole idea is
these native plants that we have, and the problem with
bringing these native plants, these non native plants in is
(19:27):
they don't have any sort of natural boundaries or controls,
and they take over and become invasive, and many of
them I've discovered, I have several of them on my
oldish property. Are they actually change the nature of the
soil so that it's inhospitable to other plants that grow
near it. So I have Japanese barbary shrubs that are
(19:51):
probably they were probably put in here in the nineteen
forties or fifties when it was a popular shrub. They're
not many places sell it anymore. They they actually change
the nature of the sun. Nothing grows around them except
what lives underneath them, field mice, the white footed field mouse,
and the ticks that love to hang on those mice.
(20:13):
So if you have Japanese barbery in your yard, get
rid of it. It is it is, and don't introduce
it whatever you do. If it's being sold at your
your home depot, nursery, you know, yeah, not to knock on. Yeah,
I don't want to knock.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
I have Japanese stilt grass which I cannot no matter
how much I pull, how much I pull, how much
I pull, it comes back, it comes back.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
I don't know what to do anymore about it. It's
I don't know what the else how else to get.
Speaker 4 (20:41):
Rid of it?
Speaker 5 (20:42):
There there are a variety of different ways to a
lot of it is just you have to keep at it.
But they're each invasive plant. They each have their own
way of being dealt with. You know, some of them,
if you if you pull, it actually encourages growth. So
it's important to look at some of the healthy yards,
which is a great website has all sorts of ways
(21:03):
of dealing with with invasives, and in fact, this week
we are micro challenge for the week at the Less
lo and More Life website is going to be dealing
with invasives. Doesn't get into the specifics of how to
deal with each, but talks about why. Malcolm, to your question, basically,
(21:25):
if you're going to plant a non native plant, it
makes sure it's not invasive in your region because it
causes all sorts of problems. Birds carry the seeds to it.
May you may think it's contained in your property, but
a bird will carry the seed to a field and
the wind or a forest and take it over. So
so that that's that's the answer there. But I think
(21:47):
our rule of thumb, I think Doug Talomy, the author
or an ecologist, uh, he's sort of the godfather of
all this, you know, reducing your lawn, adding adding more life,
increasing the life that is in it by adding native plants.
His rule, I think he used to be seventy thirty,
so seventy percent native plants thirty percent non native as
(22:08):
your target. And I think he's I even heard someone
say recently he's kind of adjusted that to sixty forty,
but don't quote me on that. And I think the
other thing too is, you know it's okay if you
want to have your grandmother's hydranga in your yard, or
you've got I've got ancient lavender shrubs, lilac shrubs here
(22:30):
and they're lovely and they also some of these plants.
I have a Norway maple, which everybody hates, but it
actually provides habitat so and carbon sy questration. It's an
enormous tree, so taking it down just because it's invasive.
I think of these each each everybody's got to make
(22:50):
a different decision depending on that.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
That's something I was, you know, was curious about that because,
as you said, they are habitats as well, and they
do you know, carbon these far You know, I have
a bit of a forest in front of me and
it's it's a carbon sink. We're trying to save a
forest in Chappaquack call Button Hook Forest, which is twenty
plus acres of amazing magical land. And to see, you
(23:16):
know in my brain that this could all go away
and thousands of trees could be cut down when in fact,
climate change and what's going on, I won't go in
this country with now regulations. It's it's a scary preposition
to think that they're going to develop this right now.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
I mean of all the things that you know, so
and where we.
Speaker 5 (23:37):
Have agency, we shouldn't be taking those kinds of actions
because where our agency is getting reduced. So let's the
areas we can protect we should be protecting.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
Right exactly.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
So we we you know, there's there's so much in
terms of you know, you want to have meadow, you know,
kind of a meadow way like property if you can
be because at this point, mine is it's I kind
of just I like to let let it go and
let it grow as my you know, unless it's a
really bad invasive kind of thing. But I see it's
(24:14):
it's rustic is now a term being used more and more. Uh,
And how does that fit in with the challenge? I mean,
is that something you use, you know, let things go,
you know, become more rustic in your property. Uh?
Speaker 3 (24:28):
Just the terminology got me because that's similar to what
I do. We're at the break.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
We'll be back more with June Boil to talk about
less law and more life challenge and more.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
So please stay tuned.
Speaker 7 (24:42):
Hudson River Radio dot com.
Speaker 5 (24:47):
This is Hudson River Radio dot com.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Hudson River Radio dot com.
Speaker 7 (25:00):
This is Hudson River Radio dot com.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
And we are back with Juneboyle to talk more about
less law and more life and planning, native gardens and
meadows and other things, the challenge and wild our scores
and we're all getting get wild. So please subscribe to
our podcast on all major podcast apps and follow us
on Facebook, Instagram at Tmshades of Green. We're also on
(25:45):
Blue Sky, which is at Tmshades of Green dot b
Sky dot social. It's a new platform, and Malcolm presents
dot com, which is an older platform.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Uh do we have a young young guy on that platform.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Anyway, we were we were talking about you know, I
keep saying now I'm in now, I'm in vogue because
my property is rustic and it's always kind of big
because I've kind of let it, let it go and
let it grow. That's my that's my philosophy. So what
what you were talking about, you know, rustic, So so
let's pick up on that.
Speaker 5 (26:24):
What else do you have? Yeah, so, you know, I
don't think the term I've we've heard the term obviously,
but we're not necessarily featuring it as part of the campaign.
Meadows are certainly something that a lot of people do
when they're rewilding or what they think of when they're rewilding.
And you know, for the challenge, you know, if if
(26:46):
you want to do a meadow or if you want
to go with a really rustic look, it's really it's
personal choice. And it's also you have to take into
account your conditions, Uh, what what the soil is like,
what the lighting is like with the shade, you know,
how shady or how much sunlight you get, things along
those lines. So it's really more about picking what's going
to work for your property. And so a meadow might
(27:08):
be better suited to a really sunny location and with
a greater expanse, although I think people do some what
they call little micro meadows. What we're really trying to
do with the challenge is really focus on these sort
of weekly steps. So the first step in the process
is to get your Wilder score, and I'll talk about
(27:32):
the Wilder tool in a minute, but that is really
figuring out what the state of your property is currently,
so you know, how many native plants, if any, do
you have, what kind of trees do you have, all
that sort of stuff kind of what I talked about earlier,
where the team came in. Did that we have a
tool now that can help you assess that.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
That's great.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Yes, I would love to do that because I know
I have some non natives in there, and I know
I have natives in there. I know I have clover
and mossome my lawn. I have a very shady I
have a shady property. I can't get solar panels now
because of that, because the whole front is foresty, and
so I would I would love to use that score.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
I'm gonna have to join this thing now.
Speaker 5 (28:16):
Well join you are still a partner from last year,
if you recalled.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
I'm always happy to be a partner. So I want
to get the word out.
Speaker 5 (28:23):
We would love to have you participate as well. It's
really fun. I'll talk about the Wilder score in a minute,
but I really want to talk about sort of what
the what the five question is and put it back
to your your your question about rustic or meadows. The
idea is you take a five minute assessment of your
property in the beginning week two, and this is where
it's kind of important, is pick your spot. Where are
(28:45):
you going to focus your time rewilding and your efforts
rewilding and it can get very overwhelming if you think
about turning, letting everything go in your property, or you know,
I want to do a meadow. It's a lot to
take on, and you're welcome to do that. But we're
telling participants pick a five by five spot on your property.
(29:07):
It's manageable, but it has ecological impact and you can
start there, and then the following week is you pick
which native plants you're going to want to put in
that spot, and that week three. So each time we
have one of these weekly challenges, there's a little video
that's instructive. We have some of our experts giving you
(29:30):
talking you through this, giving you some advice. It's very clear,
it's very simple. You'll pick your five by five spot,
think about you know, and that breaks down into you know,
twenty how many what are we talking about? Twenty five?
You know spots to place your plants and so by
plugs of any type of native plant for that space
(29:52):
and put it down. We had a wild One's webinar.
Wild Ones is one of our partners or a national
organization with local chapters all throughout the country. Some are
really really active and powerful and others are just starting up.
So they're really fun. We have one in the Lower
Hudson Valley that's relatively new, which I've joined, and I
would encourage people to seek out wild Ones and join up.
(30:16):
It's a great organization. They did a fantastic webinar. It's
on our website and you can watch all the recordings
of these little mini micro challenges and these larger webinars
that we're doing.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
What's the website again.
Speaker 5 (30:29):
Lesslanmorelife dot com.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
There you go.
Speaker 5 (30:33):
Oh, and yeah, I've totally forgot to mention. Week one
was Doug Tallamy, the godfather of the Less Long More
Life movement, kicking it off for us, so his recording
is on our website as well. He took his own
Wilder score and showed everybody how easy it is. So
we're trying to just make this as interactive as possible
(30:55):
and as instructive as possible. I think we learned from
the last two years that people need some very guided
steps along the way, and then one of the things
you do after that is you plant native plants. So
the wild Ones webinar gave you that gave a lot
of really really good advice on what to consider when
(31:16):
you're when you're designing your space and determining what plants
to put in that space. Then the following week was
a plant, a native shrub or a tree, and so
that was just thinking about you know, woody plants are fantastic,
they provide habitat, they're great for pollinators, they feed birds.
(31:36):
We had someone from the Cornell Ornithology Labs to speak
about that in particular.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
Yeah, the Cornill co op is also fabulous.
Speaker 6 (31:45):
Yeah, exactly, the educational courses like through home depot or
you know, some of the large home depots in Los Angeles,
but any of the larger agricultural places that sell plants
to the public, because most of the time I'll go
over to a plant store, yeah, the large and that says, okay,
(32:07):
I want to grow what we'll grow over here.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
Right, question is are they native or not? That's the
big question.
Speaker 5 (32:13):
Yeah, that's the big question. And what we are encouraging
our participants to do is, I mean, there are resources
online you can purchase from, but go to your local nurseries.
You your and some of them do carry native plants,
but some of them don't. The more we go to
our local nurseries and increase the demand for native plants
(32:35):
specific to our regions. That will cause them to start
supplying those to us. So even if that you don't
find what you're looking for at your native plant store,
tell at your at your local nursery, tell them that
you're interested, tell them that you're looking for seeds native
to your region, and they'll start supplying it if more
(32:56):
and more of us continue to do that. There are
some great resources we have them listed on our website
about where you can go to purchase plants and seeds
but that are native. But again you have to make
sure they're native to your region. There are some great
ones out in the Midwest, but not all of those
plants work on the East coast or the West coast
(33:16):
or down south.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
I guess there's online right you can There are on
line can get It's probably the best place to do
it because.
Speaker 5 (33:25):
Yeah, yeah, Ladybird Johnson Wildlife Center they have a great
website for identifying Ladybird Johnson. Lady Bird Johnson the Native
Wildflower Center down in Austin, Texas has a f they're
fantastic resources. They have database where you can search for
plants native to your region and find out more about
(33:46):
whether there's.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
That's pretty So that's awesome.
Speaker 5 (33:50):
She was a big advocate for native native plants. There
you go, and so, and then Week five, which is
going to be coming up, will be on identifying invasives.
So and then we have more coming out each week.
We're purposely not sharing what each one is again because
(34:10):
we're trying to keep this simple and accessible to our
participants so that it's easy for them to accomplish and
reach their goals each week. So and we're really we
seem to be getting a lot of engagement. We have
a Facebook group, Less and More Life on the Facebook group.
If you search for it, it's a private group. It's
(34:31):
for participants. You can join, but it's better to go
through our website joined first. There that's where you get
all your emails and instructions and videos sent to you directly.
But the Facebook group is a great place to share
knowledge and ask questions and getticks.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
You know, so people go online and do that. Wats
this wild r score. I'm very curious about this myself.
Speaker 5 (34:55):
Yeah, well the Wilder score. This is actually what intrigued
about becoming a participant three years ago was that the
planet while team has a science. They're an ecological landscaping service,
but they have a science team that is part of
their business, and so the business model it really really
intrigued me. And that's my organizational you know, experience as
(35:20):
a consultant working there, that part of my brain. But
it was that they wanted to assess the property and
collect data so that they could demonstrate that if you
make these changes, if you reduce your lawn and you
make your change these changes to your property by introducing
more native plant species and woody shrubs and trees, that
(35:44):
you will see more life return to your yard. You
will increase the biodiversity in your yard. And they went
demonstrable data to show that. And so they've been working
on this tool development for some time now. This year
is the year we actually turned it into a really accessible, fun,
(36:06):
almost a New York Times style personality quiz in terms
of how you take it. It's a five minute almost
a personality what's the personality of your yard? And so
you go ahead and you take that. It looks fun,
it is fun, but there's a lot of science and
a lot of thought that goes on behind the scenes
(36:28):
and developing this tool, and eventually they are going to
link it to by naturalists. So any observations you're taking
in your yard will contribute to your score. So you
take that score at the beginning that first week where
we all dug and everybody else took his score. At
the end of the challenge, you're going to get another
(36:50):
score to track your progress. So it's a great engagement
tool to get everybody motivated and learning and you know,
getting excited about it. But it is also a way
for us to you know, take advantage of citizen science
and collect all these yards that are participating, collect their
data and demonstrate that doing this actually has an impact.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
That's important.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
And I know people there's a you know, birdings become
more popular, yes, and it's I think people need to
get back you know, like they have the Japanese forest bathing.
You need to get back to nature because if you
keep your head into in the headlines, you will literally
go insane. And at this point walking walking through forest, walk,
(37:37):
you know, go to a botanical garden, go to a park,
do something.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
If you near a beach, go to the water. I
mean I grew up near the beach.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
Should in Malcolm in Brooklyn and Brighton, Uh you know,
I miss I missed that as a kid, I was
there all the time.
Speaker 3 (37:53):
And now I have you know, the.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Foresty areas, which is fantastic, and uh so this all is,
this is all wonderful, you know.
Speaker 3 (38:01):
Planet We had like a two.
Speaker 6 (38:03):
Miles stretch of beach from where I lived by Seagate
all the way up through Manhattan Beach past Brighton Beach
and you could walk on the beach. Yeah, this whole
strip is probably like about three miles and we took it.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
I mean the fact I would not give that up
for anything my childhood. There no way, I mean, I
was just you went to the beach, that was your camp.
I didn't understand why people went to camp when we
had the Atlantic Ocean right there, and it just didn't
make sense.
Speaker 5 (38:34):
I grew up in what eventually became a suburb of
New Jersey, but it was we were one of the
first homes there and camp was our woods and it
was an old sheep farm that was slow, you know,
eventually it got developed, but we had these old stone
walls and woods and I brought in all I saved
(38:55):
all sorts of animals. I had little cardboard you know.
It was amazing how creative I got created habitat for
them in our garage with ponds and everything. My mother
didn't love that idea, but she loved it as long
as it was outside. Yeah, So we just I think
when I moved here to Westchester, it reminded me of that.
And and this property where I lived had the old
(39:15):
stone walls the same time. Yeah, and that is that
is those stone walls are habitat too, and so it
is is just a really And I don't think it's
a it's a coincidence. I don't think it's is it
a I don't think it's a coincidence that this this
movement has really taken off in the last few years
(39:38):
because I think a lot of us during the pandemic,
we're home, we were getting outside and reconnecting with nature
and seeing the importance of it and getting excited that
there were birds in our yards or being able to
hear insects in our yards rather than you know, a
leaf blower because those guys couldn't come to our yard,
right because they weren't allowed to work for initially. So
(39:59):
so it was one of the these things that I
think it's gaining momentum and because people are appreciating it,
and I think we just need to keep building on
that momentum and educating and engaging people and meeting people
where they are. I think that's one of the things
you have to be really careful about. Not everybody's going
to be at the same level of understanding or or
(40:20):
knowledge about it, or experience or have the same you know,
some people can turn their rewile their whole properties and
afford to be able to do that and pay someone
to maintain it for them. Others have to start very small.
Speaker 3 (40:33):
And also now it's in the middle.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
Quick just I know we're going to probably near the
end and near the wrap, but just wanted to quickly
mention the Of course we spoke briefly about like people
who are in areas where the homeowners associations and they
can't do this without permission or because you have to
have a certain height of grass you have to do this.
Speaker 3 (40:56):
How would you deal with someone who has that issue
and want to do this.
Speaker 5 (41:01):
I think you run into that issue. Not hoas are
a really hard nut to crack. I should finish that sentence,
but but I think it's happened. There are municipalities that
haven't really adjusted to the growing interest in doing this
(41:22):
sort of thing in your land.
Speaker 3 (41:23):
So people have been fighting back a bit.
Speaker 5 (41:25):
They have been have been fighting back. I think there
was a there was a case down in it was
either North Carolina. I think it was in North Carolina
in an hoa where the individual residents UH fought for
it and had had some adjustments made to the rules
and regulations in their hoa. And there are town codes
(41:49):
being adjusted in municipalities all across the country. But it means,
as citizens and residents of those communities, you need to
go to your town board, you need to request, you
need to work with your conservation boards and your sustainability
boards and whatever other organizations are in an advocate. Just
(42:09):
advocate for yourself and I think that is a huge
way to make a difference and make some of these
necessary changes.
Speaker 3 (42:15):
Any final closing thoughts before we have to wrap.
Speaker 5 (42:22):
Join the challenge. It's so much fun. I had a blast.
That's the only reason I ended up offering to work
with them, because I got so excited being a participant.
It was just it's really really a fun, fun thing
to do in a great community of people, and we're
all learning from each other and helping the environment, and
we have agency over that and you feel it gives
(42:42):
you a little hope at a time when a lot
of us are feeling rather discouraged about the environment and
actions being taken away, actions that are taking away some
of the resources that we've counted on for some time.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
Yeah, a lot of the environmental organizations and you know,
we have Earth Justice fighting for us, and it's just
so important to keep them going and working to stop
some of these regulations from from leaving you know, I mean, yeah, exactly.
I mean you don't want clean air and clean land
(43:19):
and clean water. You know, your head turns in a circle, like.
Speaker 4 (43:22):
What do you what are you thinking?
Speaker 3 (43:24):
But anyway, this is.
Speaker 5 (43:26):
A way that individually we can make a difference. Okay,
so you think about the forty four million acres of
lawn across America. We can reduce some of it. And
that's huge. That's bigger than our national parks. That's bigger,
as you say, it's the biggest.
Speaker 3 (43:40):
Yeah, it's mind boggling when you think of that. Right,
we have to make a difference.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
So everyone go out and take the challenge. Go to
uh less lawnmore life dot com. Uh check out uh
planet Wild, which is p L A n I T.
Speaker 3 (43:58):
W I l D dot com.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
People think it's planet like the planet, but it's a
it's a little play on words.
Speaker 3 (44:04):
It's a play on words.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
And we'll have all that stuff online as well. And
I thank you so much for taking time out to
talk to us and give us this great information.
Speaker 3 (44:14):
We'll we'll have to do well, we'll.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
Have to do follow up and see where where where
it goes, like a little quick follow up on a
show somehow, and uh see, we'll see how the challenge
uh finished. And uh again, thank you for being on
and uh thank you for joining us for the Many
Shades of Green. For more info and shows, go to
Hudson River Radio dot com, Malcolm Presents dot com in
(44:38):
the Many Shades of Green dot com. H send us
your thoughts at Team shaedes a Green on Instagram and Facebook. Uh,
subscribe to our podcast it's on all major apps. Shout
out to Neil back there, who I couldn't do any
of this without him, like just doing keep keeping a
check on me.
Speaker 5 (44:57):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
And and to Brian and Malcolm for their help as well.
Remember we too picochetted of green and raise your ego
and social consciousness these days. I'm MAXI Margart Rubin, and
we'll see you again next time.
Speaker 7 (45:28):
This is Hudson River Radio dot com.
Hudson River Radio dot Com.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Hello out there in podcast land and beyond, Maxine Margot
Rubin along with my co host Malcolm Berman, and this
is the Many Shades of Green, a program that adds
a dash of green into your life as we engage
in conversations that move to inform, educate, activate, and raise
your eco and also social consciousness in these days through culture, politics, music, art, science, gardening,
(00:47):
planting and community, we hope to inspire you to pick
a shade of green and become a stuard of this beautiful, blue, green.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
Planet we call Earth.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
So Hi, We're gonna go with Malcolm Mountain La near Burbank.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
As Neil said, Uh we got hi, June. How are you. Uh,
we're we're kind of.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Neighbors in a way, and uh we got Neil back
in studio and so welcome. Considering what the topic is,
I I this song I picked because it has a
meaning to this in a way, and Joni Mitchell.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
Is one of my favorites in the whole world.
Speaker 4 (01:35):
The page perdised put up a park in love with
a pain hotel, a bootique and a swing in hot spot.
Don It always seemed to go that you don't know
what you've got to List one they realized, put up
a park in.
Speaker 5 (02:00):
The fall the.
Speaker 4 (02:01):
Trees, put him in a cream museum, and we charged
the people's a dollar and a halfiest to see you
don't And all we seem to go that you don't
know what you've got to. Li's gone, the pea Favorite
ice up a pocket he I'm a farmer. Put him
(02:27):
with a dead Tina, Jimmy's boughts on apples, blieve in
a bird Eneries day is done, And all we seem
to go that you don't know what you've got to.
Lit's gone, The pea Favor Ice Upper.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Parking Wow, Joni Ah, I love her so much for
so many reasons.
Speaker 5 (02:56):
Uh So.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Jonny Mitchell's Big Yellow Taxi is a commentary on the
way humans are treating Earth Mother Earth. The song critiques
the destructive practices of consumerism and industrialization, such as the
use of DDT and deporestation, and its core message is
warning against the destruction of the natural world and the
consequences of unchecked development.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
The lyrics they pave paradise.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
And put up a parking lot they encapsulate this theme,
highlighting the replacement of natural beauty with concrete and infrastructure.
We are in the twenty fifth year of the twenty
first century, and we are not heating the warnings of
climate change as we continue destroying the land, the air,
and the water with little care and indifference. We overfertilize
(03:44):
and spray pesticides on our property without any forethought as
to how it affects wildlife and pollinators, as well as
our children, our pets, ourselves. How we treat our lawns
is parallel to how we treat the planet.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
So let's think.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
I think the idea of a perfect lawn, that manicured
lawn that looks more like a rug than a lawn.
What if the perfect lawn isn't green, mode and sterile,
but buzzing with life, color and purpose. That big stretch
of turf grass isn't as green environmentally speaking as it looks.
Rethinking our lawns isn't just about esthetics. It's about restoring balance.
(04:23):
When we trade a bit of turf for native plants,
we create space for life to thrive again, and we
become stewards, not just homeowners. Today we're talking about why
it's time to rethink our lawns and how replacing just
a portion of that grass with native plants can lead
to big benefits for you and the planet. The US
(04:44):
is home to over forty million acres of lawn, more
than we devote to any irrigated crop, which is mind blowing.
That's a lot of mowing, watering, and fertilizing. Lawns might
look neat, but they're ecological deserts. They don't provide food
or shelter for wildlife. They goes a water, especially in
places where water is already scarce, and they often need
(05:05):
chemical fertilizers and pesticides that run it often too our
water ways. Plus all that mowing gas powered lawn equipment,
it is a big source of carbon emissions and air pollution.
We want people to join the less lawn, More Life
movement and to talk about this. We have June Boil,
the project lead for the National Less Lawn Moral Life Challenge.
(05:28):
She is President of Circle Consulting, where she specializes in
strategic communication and organizational effectiveness. June's journey into native plant
advocacy began as a participant in the first Less Lawn
Mowreer Life Challenge three years ago, trying to get the
name in as you can tell she started and it
(05:49):
was a desire when she started this to learn and involve.
Evolved into deep involvement. With the campaign's growth from a
small Westchester County competition to a national movement. She strives
to help every day rewilders make meaningful changes in their
own backyards. I'm just going to point out she's a
member of the Newcastle Conservation Board here in Chappaqua, New York,
(06:14):
and she's.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
She you live on a fort.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
She lives on a former horse farm dating back to
seventeen seventy. That alone is insane where or great? It's
great actually where she continues to transform her landscape one
native plant at a time, battling two hundred and fifty
five years of non native plantings in the process. I mean,
we're gonna have to quickly talk about this, so June, welcome, welcome, welcome.
(06:41):
It's so great to have you, and I just will
ask the first question to get it out of the way,
which is a drum roll. What is your shade of
green at the moment?
Speaker 5 (06:54):
Okay, Well, first of all, thank you all for having
me here. I'm excited to talk about all of the
sweet you. My favorite shade of green, I love all
shades of green. I'm sure everybody says that coming onto
the show, but it's always been sage green as one
of my favorites. But sage isn't a native plant right
(07:15):
at least particular area, So I am going with the
same color though, that sort of silvery green color. And
I thought i'd talk about a plant that I'm recently
having a lot of fun with in my yard and
discovering it more and more as I've let the grass
go away. Is a plant called pussy toes or antennaria,
(07:40):
and it's actually a really it's a beautiful silvery color,
and it is actually the host plant for the American
painted lady butterfly, a native butterfly. That butterfly actually looks
a lot like a monarch. They have similar coloring, slightly
different mark mars. But it's a wonderful, low growing groundcover
(08:04):
and spreads easily, and it's a lovely turf substitute. Not
for massive areas, but it peaks up in all sorts
of lovely little places, and it's got a wonderful foliage.
That's my green for today.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
That's a great green, and that's it.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
And you know, in terms of people always just think
in terms of you know grass, you know what grass
am I having? And it's the usual suspects, right, And
in terms of I think the you know, water use, Yes,
lots of water use. And I always think of Palm Springs,
which is near Mountaolm's area that they have put in
(08:40):
all these golf courses and they're using water to the
you know, so much water they they've been were having
problems that it was and it was changing the atmosphere.
I mean literally it was causing I don't know what
it is now, but I remember when I visited there
they were trying to figure out what to do.
Speaker 5 (09:00):
Was just recently there and said she was horrified at
the state of the dry river beds, and it's just
it's a it's a real crisis they're dealing with.
Speaker 6 (09:11):
Just before the show, and I was talking to Max
about you being on, I was talking about it. In
Los Angeles for a long time, they were planting succulents
and they were saying, don't put down lawns, don't put
grass lawns. Put like peples type of thing, and it
looks as beautiful.
Speaker 5 (09:31):
That's a really good point, Malcolm, because I think one
of the things we're trying to get people to do
is rethink the idea of what's beautiful. We've been trained
or socialized to think that the American lawn and traditional
horticultural approaches to landscaping is a thing of beauty, and
in some cases it can be, but it is. We're
(09:54):
trying to get people to rethink that succulents look really
cool and using stone and and interesting uh materials from
your yard that can actually offer really interesting architectural detail
if you want landscape architectural details and h depth and
(10:14):
and all of that also provides habitat. So yeah, I
know Los Angeles has really been focused on that for
some time. Southern California for many years.
Speaker 6 (10:24):
I didn't didn't do not like and I still don't
manicure gardens. I like gardens that whatever grows are there,
grows are there, and it all goes into you know,
one big picture.
Speaker 5 (10:38):
Yeah. Yeah, and you know there are people I think
there's there are there's the spectrum. Right, you can have
something that looks very wild and very beautiful in the
right setting, and then something a little more intentionally designed
can work in communities where that is more appealing, or
you don't really tick off your neighbors too much. So
(11:00):
they are all different ways you can approach native native
plantings and reducing the size of your lawn for all
the reasons Maxine you said, they really are a desert.
They do, they offer no value, They degrade the soil.
They require therefore all these additives, chemical dangerous toxins to
(11:22):
be put into your soil to keep it all going.
And why not go with something that doesn't require all
of that. It just costs less and make you know,
less money, less, water less effort. It takes a little
bit of doing in beginning to get it going on
the native side.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
But okay, before we talk about here in the east,
you know coast, I mean, Malcolm's out west. Is there
a challenge out there? Is I mean, is there anything
that you guys are doing just because we go you know,
all we go around the world, so you know, just
this is not just locally. So what's out there? Anything? Quickly?
Speaker 5 (11:58):
Are you asking Malcolm orre you asking?
Speaker 3 (12:00):
I'm asking you?
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Is there?
Speaker 5 (12:02):
So? The Less Loan War Life Challenge started locally here
in Westchester County in three years ago and started as
a pilot program. And I was about seventy five initial
participants in it. I was one of those participants, and
then the next year they it was like a fun
(12:24):
thing to do and there was some science behind it.
We were having some individuals. I'll get to your question
in a second, but I wanted to.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Give a little background, no, give background on the program.
Speaker 5 (12:33):
So it started here on the East coast in Westchester County,
which is a suburb right outside of New York and
suburb suburban county right outside of New York City. And
so seventy five people got together and we're part of
this pilot program of the Planet Wild team. The Planet
(12:54):
Wild is a local ecological landscaping organization that is the
host of this anual challenge. And they came to my
yard and assessed. They took an inventory basically of all
my native plants and my non native plants, and my
native bugs and insects and pollinators and birds and worms
(13:17):
and whatever they could find. How large I have about
an acre and a half and woo woods in the back,
and it used to be much larger when it was
a horse farm, but it was parceled off as many
of these older properties have been over years. And so
they did a whole assessment, and they came back and
(13:37):
monitored it some more. So it was a very hands
on a pilot program that they did. The next year,
everybody kept saying, let's do it again, Let's do it again,
so they turned it into more They wanted to expand
it to more than the initial seventy five participants, and
(13:58):
so started promoting it much more more locally, you know,
beyond our little county and starting to expand the promotion,
but also making it a little more of doing your
own self assessment, so using the eye Naturalist app and
doing your observations and trying to figure out, you know,
what are your baseline and what was you know, how
(14:18):
much are you going to do and giving you some
goals each week. The interesting thing is we thought it
would stay roughly in our area, but because of social
media and influencers and people who got interested, it spread.
The new spread, so suddenly we had people from around
the country participating. So instead of our target I think
was like two hundred participants for last year, and it
(14:41):
was sixteen hundred across the country before we even knew it.
So this year the goal is to consciously go national,
and our goal is to have ten thousand participants across
the country, and we have representatives from all over ward
almost at seventy five hundred participants. We'd love to get
(15:03):
to that ten thousand mark. But so that was the
long winded way of answering your question. We are in
on the West coast, we are in all parts of
the country. There are pockets that are much more active
in the Midwest. The prairie up Benjamin Vault, I think
(15:23):
is the I don't know if I'm pronouncing his name correctly,
but he's a big driver of the resurgence of native
prairie plants to re establish those in the Midwest. So
there's a really active group there. But we have pockets
all over the country of people who are experienced, people
who are brand new to this, who are mildly curious
(15:45):
and want to learn. That's our focus of the campaign
is to really make it. Our target audience is people
who are curious and want to get involved and start
making this shift and make it easy and simple for them.
But we have plenty of people who are much more experienced,
and it's great because it's a wonderful community of sharing
knowledge and experience.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Yeah, definitely, people need to just quickly give us the
because what we'll do throughout the show.
Speaker 3 (16:10):
What's the.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Website that people can check it? You know, I want
to inter disperse it during the conversation. Where would people
go to just do that?
Speaker 5 (16:19):
Yes, so it is very simple. It is called www.
Less lawnmorelife dot com. And there's a big pink button
that says join the challenge and you can just join
it and you'll instantly get invited, you'll get communications. There's
other information on the website you can find out. So
and it's not too late to start. We're just entering
(16:42):
week five. It's a twelve week challenge, but you can
catch up very quickly and easily. We have lots of
interesting videos and weekly micro challenges to help you along
your journey.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
Yeah, it's really cool. I know you guys. You were
on the Today Show recently. Correct not me, but.
Speaker 5 (17:01):
Our the CEO of Planet Wild who was on there. Yeah,
so Joanna Hall, CEO of Wild and uh Murray Fisher
who is he's our chief naturalist.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
I know Murray Fisher.
Speaker 5 (17:16):
Yes, I had him on before Famous, Yes, he.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Was, he was on. He was head of the Harbor
School and and also work with the It was it
the billion dollar oyster build, the billion oyster project, right.
Speaker 5 (17:30):
The Oster project restoring the oyster beds in the harbor.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
Right, that's huge.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
It's just very it's a very big, big project because
it can very much help.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
I mean, New York is sinking. We're gonna have issues.
I don't know. It's like, I don't know. All these
tall buildings are like starting to go into the ground.
Speaker 6 (17:52):
But so you have all these buildings are building along
the harbor of the coast that are sinking, and that they.
Speaker 5 (18:00):
Have to build on the New Jersey side too.
Speaker 6 (18:03):
From what it's actually, they're artificial islands they build.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (18:08):
Yeah, Now, the thing I had.
Speaker 6 (18:11):
Which I asked Max, she said, I should ask you,
when if we introduce new plants that aren't native to
our area, how long does it take before they acclimate
themselves and become receptive to you know, the soil and
everything in our areas.
Speaker 5 (18:29):
So you're saying introducing non native plants, right, I mean it's.
Speaker 6 (18:33):
A small world now, and people from all over the
world are coming.
Speaker 5 (18:36):
That's part of the reason why.
Speaker 6 (18:37):
And they're bringing their own plants and their whole thing
and and planting because they want to feel at home.
Speaker 5 (18:43):
There are some plants that have become I'm not I'm
not a scientist. The caveat here is I'm an enthusiast,
and I don't have the technical expertise or the scientific
background about this. But from what I understand, there are
certain plants that have become naturalized over the centuries that
(19:03):
you know, think about the colonial settlers who came here
and brought plants hundreds of years ago to the area,
and there's there is always you know, people migrated to
through these areas before then. But the whole idea is
these native plants that we have, and the problem with
bringing these native plants, these non native plants in is
(19:27):
they don't have any sort of natural boundaries or controls,
and they take over and become invasive, and many of
them I've discovered, I have several of them on my
oldish property. Are they actually change the nature of the
soil so that it's inhospitable to other plants that grow
near it. So I have Japanese barbary shrubs that are
(19:51):
probably they were probably put in here in the nineteen
forties or fifties when it was a popular shrub. They're
not many places sell it anymore. They they actually change
the nature of the sun. Nothing grows around them except
what lives underneath them, field mice, the white footed field mouse,
and the ticks that love to hang on those mice.
(20:13):
So if you have Japanese barbery in your yard, get
rid of it. It is it is, and don't introduce
it whatever you do. If it's being sold at your
your home depot, nursery, you know, yeah, not to knock on. Yeah,
I don't want to knock.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
I have Japanese stilt grass which I cannot no matter
how much I pull, how much I pull, how much
I pull, it comes back, it comes back.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
I don't know what to do anymore about it. It's
I don't know what the else how else to get.
Speaker 4 (20:41):
Rid of it?
Speaker 5 (20:42):
There there are a variety of different ways to a
lot of it is just you have to keep at it.
But they're each invasive plant. They each have their own
way of being dealt with. You know, some of them,
if you if you pull, it actually encourages growth. So
it's important to look at some of the healthy yards,
which is a great website has all sorts of ways
(21:03):
of dealing with with invasives, and in fact, this week
we are micro challenge for the week at the Less
lo and More Life website is going to be dealing
with invasives. Doesn't get into the specifics of how to
deal with each, but talks about why. Malcolm, to your question, basically,
(21:25):
if you're going to plant a non native plant, it
makes sure it's not invasive in your region because it
causes all sorts of problems. Birds carry the seeds to it.
May you may think it's contained in your property, but
a bird will carry the seed to a field and
the wind or a forest and take it over. So
so that that's that's the answer there. But I think
(21:47):
our rule of thumb, I think Doug Talomy, the author
or an ecologist, uh, he's sort of the godfather of
all this, you know, reducing your lawn, adding adding more life,
increasing the life that is in it by adding native plants.
His rule, I think he used to be seventy thirty,
so seventy percent native plants thirty percent non native as
(22:08):
your target. And I think he's I even heard someone
say recently he's kind of adjusted that to sixty forty,
but don't quote me on that. And I think the
other thing too is, you know it's okay if you
want to have your grandmother's hydranga in your yard, or
you've got I've got ancient lavender shrubs, lilac shrubs here
(22:30):
and they're lovely and they also some of these plants.
I have a Norway maple, which everybody hates, but it
actually provides habitat so and carbon sy questration. It's an
enormous tree, so taking it down just because it's invasive.
I think of these each each everybody's got to make
(22:50):
a different decision depending on that.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
That's something I was, you know, was curious about that because,
as you said, they are habitats as well, and they
do you know, carbon these far You know, I have
a bit of a forest in front of me and
it's it's a carbon sink. We're trying to save a
forest in Chappaquack call Button Hook Forest, which is twenty
plus acres of amazing magical land. And to see, you
(23:16):
know in my brain that this could all go away
and thousands of trees could be cut down when in fact,
climate change and what's going on, I won't go in
this country with now regulations. It's it's a scary preposition
to think that they're going to develop this right now.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
I mean of all the things that you know, so
and where we.
Speaker 5 (23:37):
Have agency, we shouldn't be taking those kinds of actions
because where our agency is getting reduced. So let's the
areas we can protect we should be protecting.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
Right exactly.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
So we we you know, there's there's so much in
terms of you know, you want to have meadow, you know,
kind of a meadow way like property if you can
be because at this point, mine is it's I kind
of just I like to let let it go and
let it grow as my you know, unless it's a
really bad invasive kind of thing. But I see it's
(24:14):
it's rustic is now a term being used more and more. Uh,
And how does that fit in with the challenge? I mean,
is that something you use, you know, let things go,
you know, become more rustic in your property. Uh?
Speaker 3 (24:28):
Just the terminology got me because that's similar to what
I do. We're at the break.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
We'll be back more with June Boil to talk about
less law and more life challenge and more.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
So please stay tuned.
Speaker 7 (24:42):
Hudson River Radio dot com.
Speaker 5 (24:47):
This is Hudson River Radio dot com.
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Hudson River Radio dot com.
Speaker 7 (25:00):
This is Hudson River Radio dot com.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
And we are back with Juneboyle to talk more about
less law and more life and planning, native gardens and
meadows and other things, the challenge and wild our scores
and we're all getting get wild. So please subscribe to
our podcast on all major podcast apps and follow us
on Facebook, Instagram at Tmshades of Green. We're also on
(25:45):
Blue Sky, which is at Tmshades of Green dot b
Sky dot social. It's a new platform, and Malcolm presents
dot com, which is an older platform.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Uh do we have a young young guy on that platform.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Anyway, we were we were talking about you know, I
keep saying now I'm in now, I'm in vogue because
my property is rustic and it's always kind of big
because I've kind of let it, let it go and
let it grow. That's my that's my philosophy. So what
what you were talking about, you know, rustic, So so
let's pick up on that.
Speaker 5 (26:24):
What else do you have? Yeah, so, you know, I
don't think the term I've we've heard the term obviously,
but we're not necessarily featuring it as part of the campaign.
Meadows are certainly something that a lot of people do
when they're rewilding or what they think of when they're rewilding.
And you know, for the challenge, you know, if if
(26:46):
you want to do a meadow or if you want
to go with a really rustic look, it's really it's
personal choice. And it's also you have to take into
account your conditions, Uh, what what the soil is like,
what the lighting is like with the shade, you know,
how shady or how much sunlight you get, things along
those lines. So it's really more about picking what's going
to work for your property. And so a meadow might
(27:08):
be better suited to a really sunny location and with
a greater expanse, although I think people do some what
they call little micro meadows. What we're really trying to
do with the challenge is really focus on these sort
of weekly steps. So the first step in the process
is to get your Wilder score, and I'll talk about
(27:32):
the Wilder tool in a minute, but that is really
figuring out what the state of your property is currently,
so you know, how many native plants, if any, do
you have, what kind of trees do you have, all
that sort of stuff kind of what I talked about earlier,
where the team came in. Did that we have a
tool now that can help you assess that.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
That's great.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Yes, I would love to do that because I know
I have some non natives in there, and I know
I have natives in there. I know I have clover
and mossome my lawn. I have a very shady I
have a shady property. I can't get solar panels now
because of that, because the whole front is foresty, and
so I would I would love to use that score.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
I'm gonna have to join this thing now.
Speaker 5 (28:16):
Well join you are still a partner from last year,
if you recalled.
Speaker 3 (28:19):
I'm always happy to be a partner. So I want
to get the word out.
Speaker 5 (28:23):
We would love to have you participate as well. It's
really fun. I'll talk about the Wilder score in a minute,
but I really want to talk about sort of what
the what the five question is and put it back
to your your your question about rustic or meadows. The
idea is you take a five minute assessment of your
property in the beginning week two, and this is where
it's kind of important, is pick your spot. Where are
(28:45):
you going to focus your time rewilding and your efforts
rewilding and it can get very overwhelming if you think
about turning, letting everything go in your property, or you know,
I want to do a meadow. It's a lot to
take on, and you're welcome to do that. But we're
telling participants pick a five by five spot on your property.
(29:07):
It's manageable, but it has ecological impact and you can
start there, and then the following week is you pick
which native plants you're going to want to put in
that spot, and that week three. So each time we
have one of these weekly challenges, there's a little video
that's instructive. We have some of our experts giving you
(29:30):
talking you through this, giving you some advice. It's very clear,
it's very simple. You'll pick your five by five spot,
think about you know, and that breaks down into you know,
twenty how many what are we talking about? Twenty five?
You know spots to place your plants and so by
plugs of any type of native plant for that space
(29:52):
and put it down. We had a wild One's webinar.
Wild Ones is one of our partners or a national
organization with local chapters all throughout the country. Some are
really really active and powerful and others are just starting up.
So they're really fun. We have one in the Lower
Hudson Valley that's relatively new, which I've joined, and I
would encourage people to seek out wild Ones and join up.
(30:16):
It's a great organization. They did a fantastic webinar. It's
on our website and you can watch all the recordings
of these little mini micro challenges and these larger webinars
that we're doing.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
What's the website again.
Speaker 5 (30:29):
Lesslanmorelife dot com.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
There you go.
Speaker 5 (30:33):
Oh, and yeah, I've totally forgot to mention. Week one
was Doug Tallamy, the godfather of the Less Long More
Life movement, kicking it off for us, so his recording
is on our website as well. He took his own
Wilder score and showed everybody how easy it is. So
we're trying to just make this as interactive as possible
(30:55):
and as instructive as possible. I think we learned from
the last two years that people need some very guided
steps along the way, and then one of the things
you do after that is you plant native plants. So
the wild Ones webinar gave you that gave a lot
of really really good advice on what to consider when
(31:16):
you're when you're designing your space and determining what plants
to put in that space. Then the following week was
a plant, a native shrub or a tree, and so
that was just thinking about you know, woody plants are fantastic,
they provide habitat, they're great for pollinators, they feed birds.
(31:36):
We had someone from the Cornell Ornithology Labs to speak
about that in particular.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
Yeah, the Cornill co op is also fabulous.
Speaker 6 (31:45):
Yeah, exactly, the educational courses like through home depot or
you know, some of the large home depots in Los Angeles,
but any of the larger agricultural places that sell plants
to the public, because most of the time I'll go
over to a plant store, yeah, the large and that says, okay,
(32:07):
I want to grow what we'll grow over here.
Speaker 3 (32:11):
Right, question is are they native or not? That's the
big question.
Speaker 5 (32:13):
Yeah, that's the big question. And what we are encouraging
our participants to do is, I mean, there are resources
online you can purchase from, but go to your local nurseries.
You your and some of them do carry native plants,
but some of them don't. The more we go to
our local nurseries and increase the demand for native plants
(32:35):
specific to our regions. That will cause them to start
supplying those to us. So even if that you don't
find what you're looking for at your native plant store,
tell at your at your local nursery, tell them that
you're interested, tell them that you're looking for seeds native
to your region, and they'll start supplying it if more
(32:56):
and more of us continue to do that. There are
some great resources we have them listed on our website
about where you can go to purchase plants and seeds
but that are native. But again you have to make
sure they're native to your region. There are some great
ones out in the Midwest, but not all of those
plants work on the East coast or the West coast
(33:16):
or down south.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
I guess there's online right you can There are on
line can get It's probably the best place to do
it because.
Speaker 5 (33:25):
Yeah, yeah, Ladybird Johnson Wildlife Center they have a great
website for identifying Ladybird Johnson. Lady Bird Johnson the Native
Wildflower Center down in Austin, Texas has a f they're
fantastic resources. They have database where you can search for
plants native to your region and find out more about
(33:46):
whether there's.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
That's pretty So that's awesome.
Speaker 5 (33:50):
She was a big advocate for native native plants. There
you go, and so, and then Week five, which is
going to be coming up, will be on identifying invasives.
So and then we have more coming out each week.
We're purposely not sharing what each one is again because
(34:10):
we're trying to keep this simple and accessible to our
participants so that it's easy for them to accomplish and
reach their goals each week. So and we're really we
seem to be getting a lot of engagement. We have
a Facebook group, Less and More Life on the Facebook group.
If you search for it, it's a private group. It's
(34:31):
for participants. You can join, but it's better to go
through our website joined first. There that's where you get
all your emails and instructions and videos sent to you directly.
But the Facebook group is a great place to share
knowledge and ask questions and getticks.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
You know, so people go online and do that. Wats
this wild r score. I'm very curious about this myself.
Speaker 5 (34:55):
Yeah, well the Wilder score. This is actually what intrigued
about becoming a participant three years ago was that the
planet while team has a science. They're an ecological landscaping service,
but they have a science team that is part of
their business, and so the business model it really really
intrigued me. And that's my organizational you know, experience as
(35:20):
a consultant working there, that part of my brain. But
it was that they wanted to assess the property and
collect data so that they could demonstrate that if you
make these changes, if you reduce your lawn and you
make your change these changes to your property by introducing
more native plant species and woody shrubs and trees, that
(35:44):
you will see more life return to your yard. You
will increase the biodiversity in your yard. And they went
demonstrable data to show that. And so they've been working
on this tool development for some time now. This year
is the year we actually turned it into a really accessible, fun,
(36:06):
almost a New York Times style personality quiz in terms
of how you take it. It's a five minute almost
a personality what's the personality of your yard? And so
you go ahead and you take that. It looks fun,
it is fun, but there's a lot of science and
a lot of thought that goes on behind the scenes
(36:28):
and developing this tool, and eventually they are going to
link it to by naturalists. So any observations you're taking
in your yard will contribute to your score. So you
take that score at the beginning that first week where
we all dug and everybody else took his score. At
the end of the challenge, you're going to get another
(36:50):
score to track your progress. So it's a great engagement
tool to get everybody motivated and learning and you know,
getting excited about it. But it is also a way
for us to you know, take advantage of citizen science
and collect all these yards that are participating, collect their
data and demonstrate that doing this actually has an impact.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
That's important.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
And I know people there's a you know, birdings become
more popular, yes, and it's I think people need to
get back you know, like they have the Japanese forest bathing.
You need to get back to nature because if you
keep your head into in the headlines, you will literally
go insane. And at this point walking walking through forest, walk,
(37:37):
you know, go to a botanical garden, go to a park,
do something.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
If you near a beach, go to the water. I
mean I grew up near the beach.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
Should in Malcolm in Brooklyn and Brighton, Uh you know,
I miss I missed that as a kid, I was
there all the time.
Speaker 3 (37:53):
And now I have you know, the.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
Foresty areas, which is fantastic, and uh so this all is,
this is all wonderful, you know.
Speaker 3 (38:01):
Planet We had like a two.
Speaker 6 (38:03):
Miles stretch of beach from where I lived by Seagate
all the way up through Manhattan Beach past Brighton Beach
and you could walk on the beach. Yeah, this whole
strip is probably like about three miles and we took it.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
I mean the fact I would not give that up
for anything my childhood. There no way, I mean, I
was just you went to the beach, that was your camp.
I didn't understand why people went to camp when we
had the Atlantic Ocean right there, and it just didn't
make sense.
Speaker 5 (38:34):
I grew up in what eventually became a suburb of
New Jersey, but it was we were one of the
first homes there and camp was our woods and it
was an old sheep farm that was slow, you know,
eventually it got developed, but we had these old stone
walls and woods and I brought in all I saved
(38:55):
all sorts of animals. I had little cardboard you know.
It was amazing how creative I got created habitat for
them in our garage with ponds and everything. My mother
didn't love that idea, but she loved it as long
as it was outside. Yeah, So we just I think
when I moved here to Westchester, it reminded me of that.
And and this property where I lived had the old
(39:15):
stone walls the same time. Yeah, and that is that
is those stone walls are habitat too, and so it
is is just a really And I don't think it's
a it's a coincidence. I don't think it's is it
a I don't think it's a coincidence that this this
movement has really taken off in the last few years
(39:38):
because I think a lot of us during the pandemic,
we're home, we were getting outside and reconnecting with nature
and seeing the importance of it and getting excited that
there were birds in our yards or being able to
hear insects in our yards rather than you know, a
leaf blower because those guys couldn't come to our yard,
right because they weren't allowed to work for initially. So
(39:59):
so it was one of the these things that I
think it's gaining momentum and because people are appreciating it,
and I think we just need to keep building on
that momentum and educating and engaging people and meeting people
where they are. I think that's one of the things
you have to be really careful about. Not everybody's going
to be at the same level of understanding or or
(40:20):
knowledge about it, or experience or have the same you know,
some people can turn their rewile their whole properties and
afford to be able to do that and pay someone
to maintain it for them. Others have to start very small.
Speaker 3 (40:33):
And also now it's in the middle.
Speaker 2 (40:35):
Quick just I know we're going to probably near the
end and near the wrap, but just wanted to quickly
mention the Of course we spoke briefly about like people
who are in areas where the homeowners associations and they
can't do this without permission or because you have to
have a certain height of grass you have to do this.
Speaker 3 (40:56):
How would you deal with someone who has that issue
and want to do this.
Speaker 5 (41:01):
I think you run into that issue. Not hoas are
a really hard nut to crack. I should finish that sentence,
but but I think it's happened. There are municipalities that
haven't really adjusted to the growing interest in doing this
(41:22):
sort of thing in your land.
Speaker 3 (41:23):
So people have been fighting back a bit.
Speaker 5 (41:25):
They have been have been fighting back. I think there
was a there was a case down in it was
either North Carolina. I think it was in North Carolina
in an hoa where the individual residents UH fought for
it and had had some adjustments made to the rules
and regulations in their hoa. And there are town codes
(41:49):
being adjusted in municipalities all across the country. But it means,
as citizens and residents of those communities, you need to
go to your town board, you need to request, you
need to work with your conservation boards and your sustainability
boards and whatever other organizations are in an advocate. Just
(42:09):
advocate for yourself and I think that is a huge
way to make a difference and make some of these
necessary changes.
Speaker 3 (42:15):
Any final closing thoughts before we have to wrap.
Speaker 5 (42:22):
Join the challenge. It's so much fun. I had a blast.
That's the only reason I ended up offering to work
with them, because I got so excited being a participant.
It was just it's really really a fun, fun thing
to do in a great community of people, and we're
all learning from each other and helping the environment, and
we have agency over that and you feel it gives
(42:42):
you a little hope at a time when a lot
of us are feeling rather discouraged about the environment and
actions being taken away, actions that are taking away some
of the resources that we've counted on for some time.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
Yeah, a lot of the environmental organizations and you know,
we have Earth Justice fighting for us, and it's just
so important to keep them going and working to stop
some of these regulations from from leaving you know, I mean, yeah, exactly.
I mean you don't want clean air and clean land
(43:19):
and clean water. You know, your head turns in a circle, like.
Speaker 4 (43:22):
What do you what are you thinking?
Speaker 3 (43:24):
But anyway, this is.
Speaker 5 (43:26):
A way that individually we can make a difference. Okay,
so you think about the forty four million acres of
lawn across America. We can reduce some of it. And
that's huge. That's bigger than our national parks. That's bigger,
as you say, it's the biggest.
Speaker 3 (43:40):
Yeah, it's mind boggling when you think of that. Right,
we have to make a difference.
Speaker 2 (43:45):
So everyone go out and take the challenge. Go to
uh less lawnmore life dot com. Uh check out uh
planet Wild, which is p L A n I T.
Speaker 3 (43:58):
W I l D dot com.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
People think it's planet like the planet, but it's a
it's a little play on words.
Speaker 3 (44:04):
It's a play on words.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
And we'll have all that stuff online as well. And
I thank you so much for taking time out to
talk to us and give us this great information.
Speaker 3 (44:14):
We'll we'll have to do well, we'll.
Speaker 2 (44:18):
Have to do follow up and see where where where
it goes, like a little quick follow up on a
show somehow, and uh see, we'll see how the challenge
uh finished. And uh again, thank you for being on
and uh thank you for joining us for the Many
Shades of Green. For more info and shows, go to
Hudson River Radio dot com, Malcolm Presents dot com in
(44:38):
the Many Shades of Green dot com. H send us
your thoughts at Team shaedes a Green on Instagram and Facebook. Uh,
subscribe to our podcast it's on all major apps. Shout
out to Neil back there, who I couldn't do any
of this without him, like just doing keep keeping a
check on me.
Speaker 5 (44:57):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
And and to Brian and Malcolm for their help as well.
Remember we too picochetted of green and raise your ego
and social consciousness these days. I'm MAXI Margart Rubin, and
we'll see you again next time.
Speaker 7 (45:28):
This is Hudson River Radio dot com.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.