December 19, 2023 • 47 mins
Part 2 of the Mat Stats deep dive into participation numbers at the high school level continues, this time focusing on girls high school participation. Joining hosts Jason Bryant, Glenn Gormley and Kevin Hazard is NWCA Deputy Director Dr. Jackie Paquette.
We’ll look at what factors may or may not impact growth numbers, what states are adding and where the growth is mostly impacted.
Full Slideshow: https://www.mattalkonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/Mat-Stats-27.pdf
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About Mat Stats
Welcome to the NWCA’s latest venture to help our favorite sport. Glenn Gormley, Jason Bryant and Kevin Hazard outline their effort to bring statistical analysis to wrestling. Mat Stats is the NWCA’s attempt to bring wrestling up to speed with so many other sports by incorporating stats. It is the same sport, the wrestlers are just older and better.
Mat Stats by the NWCA is a monthly podcast by the National Wrestling Coaches Association
Apple Podcasts | Spotify | iHeartRadio | Podcast Addict | Castbox | RSS
We’ll look at what factors may or may not impact growth numbers, what states are adding and where the growth is mostly impacted.
Full Slideshow: https://www.mattalkonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/Mat-Stats-27.pdf
Sticker Mule wants to make sure your team, program, company or project is set to go with quality graphics and promotional materials. With custom sizes and styles, let Sticker Mule take care of your brand today. Check out this wrestling-friendly business today at https://www.stickermule.com/custom-stickers
About Mat Stats
Welcome to the NWCA’s latest venture to help our favorite sport. Glenn Gormley, Jason Bryant and Kevin Hazard outline their effort to bring statistical analysis to wrestling. Mat Stats is the NWCA’s attempt to bring wrestling up to speed with so many other sports by incorporating stats. It is the same sport, the wrestlers are just older and better.
Mat Stats by the NWCA is a monthly podcast by the National Wrestling Coaches Association
Apple Podcasts | Spotify | iHeartRadio | Podcast Addict | Castbox | RSS
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:03):
Statistics. They can mean many things. It can be a batting average,
a win percentage, correlations, andstandard deviation. But numbers aren't just for
nerds. In life, decisions needdata. In wrestling decisions, projections and
hypotheticals also need data. Here onMatt's Stats we take historical data, theories,
(00:28):
and statistics and apply it to theworld's oldest and greatest sport. Now
to your trio of numerical nerd balls, Glenn Gormley, Kevin Hazzard, and
Jason Bryant, and welcome back toanother edition of the Matt Stats Show.
Along with Kevin Hazzard and Glenn Gormley, I'm Jason Bryant Again. We are
welcomed by the presence of one DeputyDirector of the National Wrestling Coaches Association,
(00:53):
doctor Jackie Paulcat a little bit,a little bit horse from the past weekend's
festivities at Indianapolis at the University ofIndianapolis. You Indy for what has become,
well, it's been this way fora long time, the mecca of
Division two in season wrestling, TheMidwest Classic, the forty fourth edition.
And by the way, your yourvoice is kind of scratchy. Here as
(01:15):
we record on Monday. Must havebeen a pretty good weekend. Must have
been pretty exciting. It was prettyfun, definitely fun. We had the
largest field we've ever had at theMidwest Classic, twenty one of the top
twenty five ranked teams in NCAA Divisiontwo men's wrestling, it was, and
they put on a show. Theyput on an absolute show. Our ow
(01:37):
gave Hickson bab Montevalo. He comesfrom a first year program. Was took
out the number one, the numberfive, and maybe the number eight seven
wrestler along the way to go throughthe tournament. I mean, Lander comes
away with the title. Sort ofwent out there was something to prove,
and they proved it. Just agreat event of Division two wrestling and really
(02:00):
a lot of fun. Almost onethousand matches over two days in Indianapolis here.
Yeah, it's just been a cavalcade. The Monster Tournaments are not just
regarded for the Ironman, the Beastand Reno. Now College had some big
ones of course, keeping eye onthat and the Lander thing is one of
those things where you know they kindof rose quickly to national prominence, picking
(02:21):
up a trophy last year and thenthat number one ranking. You know,
people look at it and be like, is that really it? And they
backed it up this weekend. Theythey've got a lot of tournament points are
seized on a good job down thereat basically creating a wrestling culture. And
I think most wrestling fans, ifyou didn't know where it was, would
have a hard time knowing that Landeris in South Carolina, so a place
where we used to not have awhole lot of wrestling at all, and
(02:43):
now there's some you know, wehad Newberry rise and be prominent when they
were for a relatively new program.Lander carrying the torch down there as well
right now currently, and you knowManavallo down there in Alabama the only scholarship
wrestling program there. There's a DivisionIII school there. Of course we know
three it doesn't offer athletic scholarships.But yeah, really cool storylines coming out
of the Midwest Classic. Yeah.And you know, in addition and talking
(03:07):
about new programs, you know youalso have Grand Valley State came out had
three placers this weekend too, includingthree sorry three all three in the semi
finals, one finalist. So doinga lot of cool things your programs coming
out strong in D two. Italso shows it doesn't take very long in
(03:29):
Division two to become nationally competitive.We've seen it at the ANI in Division
three levels. Then again, youknow, a lot a lot of movement
at the top with in Division twoteams fighting each year in, year out,
year in and year out. Oneof the most competitive tournaments. But
today we get back to talking aboutthe high school side and participation. Glenn,
I'm gonna turn it over to youand let you drive the keys to
part two again. We're gonna goI'm gonna go off screen here just a
(03:51):
little bit. But before I dothat, I'm gonna make sure you've got
the Ramones still up here again forthose of us, yes you do.
Agically I don't think that's a word, but the Ramones were a, if
not the greatest three chord punk bandof all time, with most of their
songs coming in under two minutes.But hopefully we can keep the show under
(04:12):
well, we're not gonna keep theshow under two minutes. But rock and
roll Radio was one of their hits. A couple of things that don't really
play now with the political correctness sideof the world, you know, but
we're just the song titles were fun. They were a fun band. And
I still regularly have them in myrotation. But Glenn rock and Roll Radio,
rock and Roll High School take AwayPart two. Okay, guys,
(04:34):
thanks for everything. I just wantto start out on behalf of match stats
in the NWCA to say, Murray, Christmas, seasy greetings, Happy New
Year's to everybody. We're very luckyto have Doctor j. Priquette on the
show again today. This is acontinuation of the episode we did in November.
Okay, Doctor Priquette, her internsand her staff sent out a survey
(04:58):
to many states. We got responsesfrom thirty nine states and this is going
to analyze what they do so wecan give recommendations or what might be helpful
to grow our sport. Okay,just like we always do. Slide two
says I feel like a number becauseit is a status show. Then,
of course slide three we added AhJenny Jenny back from uh once again back
(05:21):
from me and Hawsard's day too oldfor you and a P Douctor Priquett and
Jason Bryant to understand it, uhto remember it? Let me get it.
The iconic song icon have anything todo with that? Oh yeah,
that's very iconic. Yeah, Iwas. I was just more or less
teasing me and Hazard for being oldand being jealous of you guys are so
(05:44):
young. Okay. The opinions expresson this show do not necessarily reflect any
policies or opinions of the NWCA.And once again, Gormley does a lot
of the the slide shows on thisor sometimes he says Matt stats, opinions,
and Hazard and Jason might not agreewith Gormley. So just so you
know, with all that show,now, one of the things I've realized,
(06:10):
as you can see you're on slidefive, matt status is based on
numbers, stats and that stuff,and then it can lead to opinion.
Okay. I got a great textfrom doctor Bobby Palell, orthopedic surgeon from
Willom and Mary back when we hada team, and it became apparent to
me that I didn't explain this wellenough to people. Okay, this is
(06:30):
a numbers show, okay, andthen we can, like, for example,
on this show, then I canrecommend to doctor Priquette and Mike Moyer
on what maybe they should pursue tohelp grow the sport. Okay, so
it's based on numbers. Now,with that being said, there's a reason
that there's not just Gormley on thisshow. There's a reason we have Jason
(06:54):
and Kevin because they know a hellof a lot more about the sport than
I do, so they can givetheir opinion. And then at time we
have guests on the show, andthis month and last month of course our
doctor Briquette. I wish the wholeworld was about numbers, but it's not.
Okay, Now, let's then startwith this thing. As we do
every week, we put on howmany college teams there are, because the
(07:18):
one thing I get asked more thananything else is how many college teams are
there? And of course some specificslike does this school have a team?
Does that school have a team?Well, now there's five hundred and one
men and women's NAIA and NCAA teams. That is just great news, guys.
(07:39):
That is the most ever. Sowe're very happy about that. Okay,
now let's start going into what thisshow is all about. Now.
We learned on episode twenty six,which was part one, that the biggest
correlation state by state in high schoolwas the population of that state. Okay,
(08:01):
there's nothing we can do here orthe NWCA can do to change population,
right, people move where they move. Uh. Moyer does a lot
of good things, but he can'treally influence population all over the country.
Okay, so give it a try. Oh yeah, he would give it
a trial. Yeah yeah, wonderwhy Yeah, he'd call all of us
(08:26):
up and wonder why we haven't changedit. Okay, So convince me to
move to Lancaster, Pennsylvania one onceupon a time. So he does have
the ability to get people to move. Oh yes, yes, And I
moved up to detail too for awhile, so I agree. Okay.
Now, okay, just like Internationalwrestl we have two periods on this first
(08:46):
period happens to be girls. Secondperiod happens to be boys. Okay.
Now. One of the most famousand probably the most watched movie of all
time in American history is The Wizardof Oz and there's a is seen in
there when the good Witch of theNorth Glinda, tells Dorothy it's always best
to start at the beginning, inother words, where the yellow brick road
(09:07):
starts. So where does Gormley thinkit's best to start at? This?
Okay? Is what state sanctioned andwhen? Okay for women's high school wrestling.
Okay, now, One of thethings about this, to use an
old accounting term, you only getone bite of this apple. In other
words, you can only sanction forthe first time one time. Right.
(09:31):
Once you've done that, you can'tkeep resetioning. Now Slide twelve, we
have a list because people have askedme this and I wanted to thank Sally
and her crew wrestle like a girl. I went onto their website and got
this information. It shows you wheneach state was sanctioned, what year,
and you can see, guys,it's a recent phenomenon. It's really just
(09:54):
been going on since twenty eighteen,and it's great for the sport. Like
when I was living right near Moyerin Lancaster County, there was only a
five or six. Now we have, you know, forty five if you
count emerging sports status in a fewstates. Okay, Slide thirteen, state
(10:18):
sanctioning just means more. Okay,what this slide shows you highlighted in red
is the eighth is the number ofstates that were sanctioned and their multiplier compared
to all states. And I doit one year out, two years out,
three years out. Obviously the stateshave sanctioned in twenty three I can
only do one year because it's twentyfour yet. Okay. So what we've
(10:45):
learned here, okay, is thatI'm not going to read you all these
numbers. I'll just give you thetotal summation of this. There's a stats
term called stochastic dominance, okay.And when I first said this to Kevin,
he thought I was saying scholastic dominancemeaning you know, yeah, meaning
(11:07):
like Blair's really good scholastically. That'snot what I meant at all. It's
a statistical term, okay. Andbasically what we're seeing here is the state
sanctioning has a stochastic dominance over thestates that are that are just all states,
so there is some there there wheresanctioning that sport has really helped each
(11:31):
of these states. Okay. Now, I think it's great for all the
people and all the states that gotthis done. I don't want to list
anybody because I might leave somebody out, so I'm just giving a hats off
to everybody that was involved in thatand the importance of it. Okay.
Now, based on the survey thatJackie sent out, and Jackie and Kevin,
(11:56):
if you have anything while I'm talking, I want to slow me down
pipe in, because of course Jackieknows much more about this than I do,
and because of her voice, Imight just have to keep on talking.
Okay, is there a higher growthrate in states that have dual meet
girl state titles versus one that don't? Okay, yes, there is.
(12:18):
Okay, there's a much higher multiplier. It's four point three versus two point
five to four if there's no dualmeat tournament. Okay, Now we did
learn and now this is one ofthe thirty nine states that have the survey
filled out, not all fifty statesand fifty one if you count DC.
(12:39):
Now we learned on episode twenty sixwhere we had to control for a few
things based on population. So whatwe did on this there's three possibility Now
we're talking about states. Excuse me, if a girl can wrestle in a
boy's division. Okay, there's threepossible answers. Yes, if there's no
(13:07):
girls team, Yes, even ifthey have a girls team, and know
if there's a girl's team. Okay. The highest growth rate is yes,
if there's no girls team, theycan wrestle the boys. Then know if
there's a girls team, and thelowest one is if you can wrestle there,
even if there's a girl's team.So what we did for category two,
(13:31):
we controlled for California and Washington becausethey are in the mature line of
this, even though it's recent relativeterms, right, So even when you
control for that, Okay, it'sstill best to let girls wrestle girls.
Okay, Now, if there isno girls team, sure, let them
(13:54):
wrestle boys teams. But if youwant to know what we found statistically,
girls wrestling, girls helped grow thesport. Okay, that's as bluntly as
I can put it. I canI say something there short. My son's
(14:15):
a coach and he's had girls onhis team for the past ten fifteen years,
but one or two at a time. And two years ago he had
five girls on the team. Theyhad their first DAID championship. Last year
they got emergent growth status. Thisyear he had sixteen girls come out,
(14:37):
and he's had five more since then. He's lost a couple, he loses.
He loses kids come out every yearand he loses a certain percentage the
same basically the same percentage of girlsstopped wrestling, but just to just triple
the growth, just because they knewthere was a place to go. For
girls. Well, that's Kevin,that's that's a great explanation. That is
(15:03):
what we're finding is that if girlsknow they can have other girls to wrestle
with in the room, it's makingthem more comfortable. Obviously, representation matters
in a lot of ways. Ifyou see other if you see other girls
doing what you want to do,it's going to make you more comfortable.
And it's going to make those girlsthat maybe not even considered wrestling in the
(15:24):
past think, oh maybe I canwrestle too. That representation never used to
be there. And so Kevin,I think what you're explained with your son's
team is the perfect example of that. Thank you, Kevin. It is
it is one of these things thatit could be on a school by school
(15:45):
basis when you switch to girls justwrestling girls. And I don't have an
answer for that, but I youknow, I obviously know Kevin Son very
well and he's one of the premiercoaches in the country. I mean,
you know, so it's something thatI think shows like this can help out
and say it is best of girls, russell girls, but sometimes there's not
(16:07):
enough girls in the room, right. So what you guys were saying so
let's move on now. You guysjust discussed what I said on the slides
up to you know, up thenumber twenty. There, you guys discuss
it. Well, So let's gipto twenty. Where does the number of
divisions of state have affect the growthrate across the state? Okay? The
answer that is no. Okay.As you see there, there's twenty seven
(16:30):
states with just one division we're talkingto girls, and then twelve states with
one or more. Okay, Andit doesn't really affect a multiplier of the
growth and all that. So that'sjust something that should be left up to
the state and go from there.Okay. Another thing I noticed in the
(16:51):
survey that doctor Priquette and WCA sentme, some states allow more than one
female wrestler from a school in thesame weight class. Okay, does this
affect the growth? No, itdoes it? Okay. However, I
think it's great to have more peoplewith a chance to do it. Just
(17:11):
as a fan, I would loveto see it, but it's not something
that we can say affects the growthof the sport. So I think that
gorms. I think that the thingthere is that also is mirrored in the
college space as well right now,for the growth of the sport. You
know, in the college space,in the NCAA and the NAIA, you
can enter more than one at aweight class heading into the regional or the
(17:37):
conference tournaments for an AIA and thenthe national tournament. And again it's people
may question why that is, especiallybecause they're so used to the men's side
right where you have a wrestler forthe spot. But again, it's about
growing the sport. Let's give moreopportunities so that we can get more people,
more women, especially we can getmore women wrestling. I'm all for
(18:00):
it, Doctor Piquette, I agreetotally with you. You said that much
clearer than I did, even withno voice. Okay, So to summon
up what we do, what wedo in slide twenty two is you know
what I'm saying here, and I'venever been a fan of Big Brother,
you know, looking over anyone soldier. Let the states decide, the school's
(18:21):
decide, you know its states shouldmake a decision based on their own stuff.
James Madison wrote something about this whenhe wrote the Constitution. Now,
the problem with James Madison is notthe person the school. They need two
wrestling teams okay, and I'm allfor them starting those two. Okay.
(18:44):
Now, next, does keeping ateam score at the individual state tournament affect
the growth of the sport compared toteams that don't? Okay, it really
doesn't, although there's only seven statesthat don't keep that, so once again,
it's hard to draw judgment on that. So I don't really think we
(19:07):
could recommend to anybody keeping score becauseof this reason. I'm all for keeping
score because somebody should win, somebodyshould come in second, et cetera.
Okay, So I think that onthis, Glenn, I think that it's
interesting if you think about this inconjunction with what we looked at a little
bit ago with if they're having aduel event. So it's interesting to see
(19:33):
how the team overall team component impacts, right. You know, certainly we
know, and I mean you canthink about that. I know you're a
numbers guy, but we can thinkabout that more from a psychological side of
things sometimes too, in respect tobeing a part of something, supporting a
team, women sort of have alittle bit more of that, right.
(19:53):
They want to be a part ofsomething and they want to you know,
they want to have that relation shipwith other people. Very relationship based women
are and team A team aspect providesthat relationship based piece. So that's why
I was not surprised to see thefact that a gleut the fact that having
(20:14):
a dual championship is good, rightbecause women want to have that aspect where
they have the relationships and being ableto support a team versus just an individual
gives that big piece of relationship building. To me, there was something.
There was something interesting that I sawa couple of weekends ago, track lost
(20:37):
that you know, they lost everythingfor like an hour, yep, And
I was at a boys tournament andit just basically came to a halt.
And then there was a couple oflike memes online or reels the next day
and a couple of girls tournaments.They turned it into an organized dance session.
(21:00):
And it was only at the girlstournament that that happened. But it's
like you just said, they tendto, you know, have a more
unified feeling about things. It wasit was really great to watch. That
is great guys, and you know, to summon up, I'm all for
keeping score and there should be awinner and of course it you know,
(21:22):
individual state tournaments, I mean,if we didn't keep scoring eighty eight and
eighty nine, I couldn't rub itin Moyer's face every year that we Mary
won the tournament. You know,anybody could have said who won it?
But we kept scoring, we won. Okay. So now we're skipping on
to the second period like they're doingin US wrestling. It's it's boys,
(21:44):
okay. And the same thing thatdoctor Purkett sent out surveys on many other
shows, we talk about how theinclusion of women and women's teams and colleges
have in mind mind saved men's wrestling. Okay. So one of the things
I did then here is did sanctionDid the sanctioning revolution and girls spill over
(22:11):
to the boys? Okay? Sowe have this done in a couple periods,
twenty thirteen to seventeen and then twentyeighteen to twenty three. Some people
might say, well, there's onemore year in the second group. Yeah,
but we had COVID, so it'sreally the same amount. Okay,
boys wrestling was in high school wasdecreasing from thirteen to seventeen, then from
(22:34):
eighteen, as we saw in aprevious slide, that's when the sanctioning of
girls high school wrestling started to explodefrom eighteen to twenty three. Boys wrestling
is now growing again, and youcan see there's a much larger increase in
NCAA men's teams. Because what's goingto happen now that we have more girls
(22:57):
high school Russell's, There's going tobe more college wrestlers because these girls are
not going to stay young all thetime, right, and thereby there's going
to be more men's So women orgirls with everyone to say, sanctioning high
school sports now or a couple ofyears from now will lead to more men's
(23:22):
college teams. Okay. I thinkthat's an important factor for everyone my generation
and male to realize how important itis. Okay, Now, on the
next slide there, I have acouple quotes because I've been saying for a
while how women have helped men,and a lot of guys my age just
(23:45):
don't believe me on it. MarkTwain once said it's easier to fool people
than to convince them they have beenfooled. Okay, and guys, I'm
going to say this bluntly my generation, guys, you've been fooled. Okay,
Hi, period, women are helpingus. Title nine is not the
(24:07):
reason that we lost wrestling. Thereason is because we didn't react. Well,
Okay, there's no fool like anold fool, right, Okay.
Slide twenty eight. Having a dualmeat state tournament has no statistical effect on
the boys' high school growth rate.Okay. Once again, do I think
it's a good idea to have one? Heck yes, okay, But I'm
(24:32):
saying that so people can get thechance to wrestle and somebody can win a
tournament and brag about it and allthat stuff. And it's not messing mainly
for the growth of the tournament.It's for the good of it. Okay.
Now, there's a few states boysstates that do not keep score in
(24:56):
Inanville State tournament. Okay, we'vealready reviewed that in the girls. Why
we keep it? I could repeatthe same reason, but I don't want
to pick on Mike. Okay,So there's not really much of a difference.
But there's so few states, onlysix that don't keep score, so
we really can't judge anything from that. Okay. It's just one of these
(25:21):
things that we're not really sure.And two of these states, Illinois and
Maryland, Okay, didn't have anywrestling in twenty twenty one because of COVID
and stuff like that. So there'sreally some moving parts to make it hard
to say to anything different in that. Okay, does it matter if the
(25:42):
duel meet is before or after?We really don't know. Okay, because
so few states haven't after that,we don't know. That's once again go
back to James Madison, the politiciannot to college. Let the states decide,
you know, let everyone decide what'sbest for them. Does it matter
(26:03):
for growth for boys high school ifthe competition limit is team or individual?
No, it doesn't. It doesn'tmatter for the growth of that of the
high school boys. Okay, differentstates have different reasons. The next show,
we're going to get into how manymatches people wrestling college now compared to
(26:26):
the old days. Okay, Slidethirty three. Does the number days the
individual state tournament have an effect onthe boys high school growth rates? No?
Okay, My guess is only twostates have a four day tournament Iowa,
Missouri, and then and even amounthave a two or three day tournament.
(26:49):
My guess is they have it longerbecause people come out to Iowa eighty
thousand people in twenty twenty two.Okay, by producing revenue, I think
it's a revenue thing. I'm ascapitalist as it gets, so I'm all
for it. Okay. Now we'regonna sum this up on a white paper
(27:15):
one page, or that happens tobe two pages, whatever you want to
call it. One for girls,one for boys. I said in an
earlier slide show that we have otherpeople on the show that know more about
the sport than I do. Ijust happen to be good with numbers.
Okay, I'm gonna let you guysdiscuss this slide. But first, before
(27:37):
we do this, we're going toskip to slide thirty six and then come
back to thirty five. Okay.Jason Curry Regner, one of the great
people at NWCA, sent me somestuff this morning. He thought it was
going to be good for the show. Thank you for getting it to me,
Curry, big, big help.Okay. From twenty seventeen through now,
(28:03):
there are thirty two different states thathave had an NWCA Leadership Academy.
Okay, I'm gonna let you afterI discuss the numbers, Jackie talk about
that. I did help the NWCout without that with that, but Jackie
knows it much better than me.Okay, there's eighteen states that have not.
(28:25):
Now, the states that have hadit tend to be the larger states
boys wrestling. This is just withboys, because girls wrestling, of course,
we know, was correlated so muchwith state sanctioning. We don't know
if they're having it geographically, likefor example, Moyer's offices in PA.
You know, Pennsylvania's in PA.Two. Okay, So, but the
(28:51):
bottom line to this, eighty percentof the growth in boys high school wrestling
from two thousand and seven to todaytwenty twenty three are from states that have
had leadership academies. Okay, I'mgoing to repeat that, guys, eighty
(29:11):
percent of the growth comes from thosestates. Okay. Now, I can't
say for sure, Chicken her egg. Like you know, I've said this
so many times, correlation doesn't provecausality, right. However, here it
looks like there's something there. Andwhat makes it more special that the states
happen to be the bigger states.They're usually a mature business where the growth
(29:33):
states the ones that haven't had it, would probably grow at a faster percentage.
So let's look at that the oneswith the leadership academy are growing at
sixteen percent, the ones without thirteenand a half. Okay, so there's
really no reason not to do this. I think it's a great thing.
(29:53):
At your disposal. Now we're goingto go back, please, Jason,
to thirty five, and I'm goingto let you guys, three of you
guys talk about what you think mightbe helping this the growth of boys and
girls wrestling that you cannot definitely puta number on, Kevin, why don't
you start us out, buddy,Okay that there are a couple of things
(30:14):
I thought of and I and Iwent and checked and Virginia has one hundred
and forty sanctioned clubs across the acrossthe state. And I think that and
that's been in growth, and Ithink that's and that's led to more participation.
It keeps the kids interested longer.You know, a lot of times
(30:38):
you get kids, you know,they've got a youth club, but then
there's not much for them between thatand high school. Now they have a
summer program, and again it's onehundred and forty across the state, and
it's and it's done a really goodjob. And I also think just you
know, there's probably no statistical wayto do this, but but tradition probably
(31:02):
has a lot to do. Astate that has a really strong tradition,
you know, it's probably coming backstronger now. But but I think one
thing I was thinking about when youwere talking, we were talking about growth
and the and the duel meet.I wonder, but I think dual meets
mean more for attendance than they dofor growth. I can remember when,
(31:29):
when, when, when when therewas real district when when there was fifteen
twenty matches a year, there weren'tfifty, and they'd have these duel meets,
and we had three four thousand peopleat a duel meet. When it
got to where then now the kidswere going to all day sit in a
you know, a gym all dayinstead of just having a match on Wednesday
(31:52):
night. People don't want to gosit in gym for twelve hours, Kevin.
I think one thing when it comesto the duel meets, and we're
looking at the growth from the boysand girls side of things, is access
points. With the growth of women'swrestling, you know, look at the
(32:15):
top attendance team in NCAA Division onewrestling for the last decade and a half
and probably historically has been the Universityof Iowa in those eras where Gable was
building those monster teams. A lotof those championships were also held on campus.
The opportunity to get up close andpersonal at to that you're as soon
to be heroes was built on campusand at dual meets and at places where
(32:38):
there was something to see and somethingto root for. The men always had
that. Now, when you takeyour daughter to Carver Hawkeye, unless they're
a wrestling junkie, it's not thesame until eighty two oh seven or I
believe that was the number right jackie. Until you've got something they want to
see, that's something that's like them. Okay, you know you'll have like
(33:00):
you know, I'm taught teaching mydaughters about various sports. We were watching
the women's volleyball Championship yesterday, orwe've you know, had had my oldest
daughter, you know, root forhell and an Adeline, so you know,
in getting him into hockey and gettinghim take him to the same Cloud
State women's games as well as themen's games. But when you have a
sporting event, that's the girls arethe center stage. And now college women
(33:23):
and Olympic level women professional women's athletesin their sport are performing, and they
have access to them in a dualmeat situation where they can see them up
close, they can watch Like Ialways use Brent Metcalf as an example on
the boy side, Like there arekids that grew up going to Carver that
wanted to be like Brent Metcalf becausethey saw him wrestle live. That opportunity
(33:45):
in a dual meet affords itself alot better than am I going to miss
Brent Metcalf because he's pinning a kidin fifteen seconds over on Matt a Ab
in the South annex of Mega Tournamentthree. So I believe the duel meets
and with its growth level and women'swrestling is still new, so the opportunity
for the growth points from a dualmeet on the women's side is still great.
(34:08):
I think we've hit that kind ofthat. You know, we know
where that's going to be on themen's side, But the girls and the
women's side of things, when weget more women's programs and we get better
draws, we can see those highschool I think that's going to affect the
growth in the states that have collegewomen's teams, especially at the bigger schools,
once maybe the P five's and theivy start saying, Okay, we're
(34:29):
going to do this more. We'renot going to sit here and throw all
our money at nil and and proyou know, you know, basically professional
college football. So I think thedual meat growth potential at the college level
to impact the dual meet growth potentialat the high school level is kind of
trickled down, and I think that'sgoing to make an impact. And I
think, you know, again,people talk about going it's not just college,
(34:50):
let's go my high school duel meet'sgrowing up. Like oh man,
I remember going to the Coston Duelsand we had to play sold out and
yeah, like like you know Kevinsaying in those duel meets, the girls
are getting there, and I thinkwe still have big DULs. Kids want
to be around successful programs, theydon't they want to compete in a sport
where they're again to the point aboutbeing part of a team, being part
of a community, and a packedgym will impact that with girls wrestling,
(35:13):
I believe, just like it diddecades ago with the boys. So I
just don't I don't think we're thereyet. I think those numbers are yet
to be realized because it's still newin a lot of places. And once
we get those that, I thinkeight years four to eight years is where
we're really going to see these gymsget packed more and more and more.
And to another point is the powerprograms. Once the power programs in these
(35:34):
high school states get behind it,then all of a sudden, where's your
excuse? Well? Easton doesn't doit, so we don't need to do
it. Nazareth doesn't. You know. Oh wait a minute, Blair Academy
they do it, Sat Edward,you know, well I think that's an
all boy school. That's a badexample. But like when we look at
the schools that, oh, thesetraditional programs now have girls wrestling teams,
I think those little programs that mighthave been detracting a little bit have no
(35:57):
excuse and that will also help.So those are my two little so boxes
of where I think the girl's growthcan come from, the dual meat in
the small town atmosphere. Thank you, Jason. I think I think building
off of what Jason said a littlebit, and also what Kevin said,
representation matters, like I said previously, right, and that's what Jason alluded
(36:20):
to with Carver Hawk i Arena.Right, never before has a young girl
been able to walk into Carver HawkArena and see someone like her wrestling on
the mat. I think it's assimple as that, right, And we
know that we know what wrestling meansto Iowa. Okay, So when wrestling
is coming through these other states andthese other programs where you know, we
(36:44):
have these these amazing women's programs,right, we have Colorado Masa and Colorado.
We have King down in Tennessee,Campbellsville down in Kentucky. You know,
we have these programs building something andhave been building something for years.
You know, look at what JoeNorton's doing up in at North Central in
Illinois. He has fifty women onhis team, you know, like being
(37:07):
able and is winning in one Anational championship last year. You know that
we have young girls that are ableto see this now, Like I want
to go wrestle for Joe Norton upat North Central, and I'm I'm thirty
eight years old, like a littlegirl who sees Yolena out there, or
you know all of his other stars, They're gonna want to be like them.
(37:30):
And I think that we're We haveplatforms now that are allowing us to
showcase that as well. And Ithink that's why I think the growth for
girls in women wrestling can be differentbecause of something you have on the screen
here and flow in social media.It's more accessible very simply put, right,
it's more accessible. You used tohave to take your family out to
(37:52):
Carver Hawkeye Arena to actually watch thatduel. You don't necessarily have to do
that now. And you know,a fan in the middle of nowhere in
Wyoming could watch the Trailblazer duels thatwe were out at Iowa. So there's
just there's just more reach now.And then the second point that I want
(38:13):
to make is simply the social socialacceptability. It's social. It's much more
socially acceptable now for a girl towrestle it than it ever has been in
the history of especially our country.Right, our country for a long time
had ideals as to what a womanshould look like. And you know,
back in the aia W days ofwomen's sports, there was you could play
(38:35):
tennis, you could golf, youcould swim, you could do things that
were considered more gentle. Right,wrestling was never in consideration for a woman
back then. Now we're we welive in a we live in a time,
thankfully, where it's much more sociallyacceptable for women to do the same
things as men. And I thinkthat that's a big piece of this too.
(38:57):
You know, I have a nineyear old little nephew who wrestles,
and he has They've got probably almostas many little girls out there wrestling when
my brother sends me pictures from hispractices as they do little boys, and
I think that's I think that's amazing. I'm pretty fired up. I actually
get to go speak at their practicenext week, and I'm excited because I
(39:20):
know there's gonna be little girls outthere, and I know I get to
stand up in front of them asa woman who works full time in the
sport of wrestling. And that's notlost on me. That's something I think
is important in there. There aren'tvery many women that get to do that,
and I'm very cognizant of that aswell. And like I said,
I'm really excited to be able tostand up in front of these little little
(39:42):
girls in the club, in thisclub in the middle of nowhere in Illinois,
frankly, and show them that womencan be a part of this sport
at all levels and in all ways, and I think that that's something that
is very different now as well.Jackie, thank you for that input.
Thank you for that. Guys,Guys, I appreciate that input there.
(40:05):
I needed that help with this.Now we're gonna skip here to something.
The next slide. It's just somethinginteresting since we're a stats show. Okay,
we did many shows. It'll beslide thirty eight, Jason, we
did many shows on team scoring andhow it could change and stuff like that.
For the first time ever, ESPNtelevised a dual meet live. Okay,
(40:30):
as I'm sure you're all aware,the Hawk guys beat the Cyclones eighteen
fourteen. If they use mad Statsmargin of victory scoring, Iowa State would
have beaten iye on. Okay,Now, that doesn't happen real often,
as we said on the shows,but there's going to be some mis has
happened, and this is one ofthem. And I will say this,
(40:51):
being the stats guy, the chancesof Kevin Dresser liking my scoring system is
much better than brands liking it basedon that result. At least at least
that match correct. Okay. Now, next news is a little news here,
and of course this show does havea big Virginia bias, since Kevin
(41:12):
I are Willim and Mary Lomon,Jason Bryant, you know as a Precoca
guy and an old Dominion guy anothertimer five. Yes, yes, Jason,
Enough about Glenn's old bar. We'llget back to the real stuff here.
I'm exactly Jason was part of ourteam. Basically, I saw him
so often. So Janey is yeah, yeah, Surry Cheney isn't being inducted
(41:42):
to the e I w a Hallof Fame this March at Bucknell during the
tournament. I'm already all over everyWillym and Mary guy to make that tournament.
Hope to see all you guys.How good was Terry Cheney. He
was so good He made me andPink has looked like we knew what we
were talking about, okay, whichwe clearly don't. Then we got a
(42:02):
picture here. I asked Torry tosend me a picture, and this is
a Terry in a nutshell. Hewanted his whole team to be around him.
That's when we won the nineteen eightyeight Virginia state title, and then
our list all the William and MaryEastern Champs ever real quick, Sweezy Aragona,
Cheney, McLachlan, that's Mart McLaughlan, Buzzwin, Jesske Larrymore, Cheney
(42:25):
again, and Cheney was ow bothtimes. So hots off, Turry,
great friend. He means a lotto me as a human being, and
I'll be happy to be there watchinghim getting inducted. And that's pretty much
to say, Hey, good jobfor the York guy too, because they
were arrival at high school. Grantedhe was a little bit before my time,
(42:47):
but he's also a product of thePeninsul Wrestling Association, the wrestling club
that yours true also came out of. Even though I didn't, I did
trace amount of wrestling compared to Terrycoming through. So yeah, yeah,
you've helped to sport out a lotof other ways, Jason, but I
just wanted to that's Sally. That'sprobably going to be our last thing ever
(43:09):
in the IWA. But we're goingto go out in a good note.
Now, Kevin, here's your partof the show now where you're going to
read us episode twenty seven. Matchstats notes one for girls and then notes
two for boys. Take it away, Kevin. Okay, the largest factor
that's under Our control for girls wrestlinggrowth is state sanctioning. Number two,
(43:34):
high school girls should have a statedual meet tournament to help growth. Three,
girls should wrestle on girls things ifit's at all possible, If the
girls team, If the girls schoolhas a girls tend to help the growth.
Four. If the high school doesn'thave a girls team, let the
girls wrestle on the boys team,but encourage them to start a girls team,
(44:00):
And of course that goes with coachesand a lot of other things.
There's some hurdles there, but ittrust me, it's coming. Five.
The number of divisions in a stateand allowing more than one entry per weight
class per school has no effect onthe growth rate of girls participation, So
just make your decisions based on what'sgood for the wrestlers. Number six.
(44:25):
On the boy's side, the adventof girls wrestling has coincided with the renewed
growth of high school boys wrestling.We saw right before the girls took off,
the boys were still on that steadydown term. As soon as the
girls took off, the boys startedback out. Having a dual meet tournament,
keeping score at the individual attorney andcompetition limits have no effect on growth.
(44:50):
Rates for boys high school wrestling.Eight. The number of days for
the individual state attorney and if itis this last event have no provable effect
on the boys high school growth rate. Nine, like the state individual tournaments,
is most likely based on revenue potential. And we saw when we watched
that one slide four day tournament inIowa. Yes, because they had eighty
(45:15):
thousand participants. And we learned thenthat Glenn is a capitalist. That of
course we all do that. Ten. There are factors determine the growth in
high school boys in certain state thatare nearly impossible to systemically prove. That's
why we need the NWCA on theNWCA weight class in states. The NWCA
(45:38):
is focused on growth and growing thesport through its core competencies and part of
that and it's will make it tena go to local NWCA leadership Academy.
It's a great thing for your team. Thank you very much, Kevin.
(46:01):
And before we have going away thingsnext month's show January okay, once again
we have Santa there and then Smokeydress to Santa. Okay, we're going
to go through the number of matches. Now. We don't have enough yet
on women because women's wrestling has beenaround the college long enough. It's not
that we're forgetting about them. There'sa reason the number of matches the top
(46:24):
male wrestlers have wrestled through the years. We want to see what trends this
is, showing how it compares withother sports, et cetera. So that's
going to be January seventeenth, twentytwenty four, three pm. Jason,
Jackie, Kevin, anything else tosay, Merry Christmas, Mary Festivals for
(46:47):
those two you know, you know, those those Stanzas out there, they
love their festivals. Just thank you, thank you for the research, thank
you for the opportunity, and thankyou to everyone for wanting to grow the
sport. Agreed, Thank you guys, and on behalf of Matt Stats.
Jason Bryant, Kevin Hazard, ourspecial guest doctor Jackie Piquette, Murray,
(47:09):
Christmas, Happy New Year, Sametime next month, guys,
Statistics. They can mean many things. It can be a batting average,
a win percentage, correlations, andstandard deviation. But numbers aren't just for
nerds. In life, decisions needdata. In wrestling decisions, projections and
hypotheticals also need data. Here onMatt's Stats we take historical data, theories,
(00:28):
and statistics and apply it to theworld's oldest and greatest sport. Now
to your trio of numerical nerd balls, Glenn Gormley, Kevin Hazzard, and
Jason Bryant, and welcome back toanother edition of the Matt Stats Show.
Along with Kevin Hazzard and Glenn Gormley, I'm Jason Bryant Again. We are
welcomed by the presence of one DeputyDirector of the National Wrestling Coaches Association,
(00:53):
doctor Jackie Paulcat a little bit,a little bit horse from the past weekend's
festivities at Indianapolis at the University ofIndianapolis. You Indy for what has become,
well, it's been this way fora long time, the mecca of
Division two in season wrestling, TheMidwest Classic, the forty fourth edition.
And by the way, your yourvoice is kind of scratchy. Here as
(01:15):
we record on Monday. Must havebeen a pretty good weekend. Must have
been pretty exciting. It was prettyfun, definitely fun. We had the
largest field we've ever had at theMidwest Classic, twenty one of the top
twenty five ranked teams in NCAA Divisiontwo men's wrestling, it was, and
they put on a show. Theyput on an absolute show. Our ow
(01:37):
gave Hickson bab Montevalo. He comesfrom a first year program. Was took
out the number one, the numberfive, and maybe the number eight seven
wrestler along the way to go throughthe tournament. I mean, Lander comes
away with the title. Sort ofwent out there was something to prove,
and they proved it. Just agreat event of Division two wrestling and really
(02:00):
a lot of fun. Almost onethousand matches over two days in Indianapolis here.
Yeah, it's just been a cavalcade. The Monster Tournaments are not just
regarded for the Ironman, the Beastand Reno. Now College had some big
ones of course, keeping eye onthat and the Lander thing is one of
those things where you know they kindof rose quickly to national prominence, picking
(02:21):
up a trophy last year and thenthat number one ranking. You know,
people look at it and be like, is that really it? And they
backed it up this weekend. Theythey've got a lot of tournament points are
seized on a good job down thereat basically creating a wrestling culture. And
I think most wrestling fans, ifyou didn't know where it was, would
have a hard time knowing that Landeris in South Carolina, so a place
where we used to not have awhole lot of wrestling at all, and
(02:43):
now there's some you know, wehad Newberry rise and be prominent when they
were for a relatively new program.Lander carrying the torch down there as well
right now currently, and you knowManavallo down there in Alabama the only scholarship
wrestling program there. There's a DivisionIII school there. Of course we know
three it doesn't offer athletic scholarships.But yeah, really cool storylines coming out
of the Midwest Classic. Yeah.And you know, in addition and talking
(03:07):
about new programs, you know youalso have Grand Valley State came out had
three placers this weekend too, includingthree sorry three all three in the semi
finals, one finalist. So doinga lot of cool things your programs coming
out strong in D two. Italso shows it doesn't take very long in
(03:29):
Division two to become nationally competitive.We've seen it at the ANI in Division
three levels. Then again, youknow, a lot a lot of movement
at the top with in Division twoteams fighting each year in, year out,
year in and year out. Oneof the most competitive tournaments. But
today we get back to talking aboutthe high school side and participation. Glenn,
I'm gonna turn it over to youand let you drive the keys to
part two again. We're gonna goI'm gonna go off screen here just a
(03:51):
little bit. But before I dothat, I'm gonna make sure you've got
the Ramones still up here again forthose of us, yes you do.
Agically I don't think that's a word, but the Ramones were a, if
not the greatest three chord punk bandof all time, with most of their
songs coming in under two minutes.But hopefully we can keep the show under
(04:12):
well, we're not gonna keep theshow under two minutes. But rock and
roll Radio was one of their hits. A couple of things that don't really
play now with the political correctness sideof the world, you know, but
we're just the song titles were fun. They were a fun band. And
I still regularly have them in myrotation. But Glenn rock and Roll Radio,
rock and Roll High School take AwayPart two. Okay, guys,
(04:34):
thanks for everything. I just wantto start out on behalf of match stats
in the NWCA to say, Murray, Christmas, seasy greetings, Happy New
Year's to everybody. We're very luckyto have Doctor j. Priquette on the
show again today. This is acontinuation of the episode we did in November.
Okay, Doctor Priquette, her internsand her staff sent out a survey
(04:58):
to many states. We got responsesfrom thirty nine states and this is going
to analyze what they do so wecan give recommendations or what might be helpful
to grow our sport. Okay,just like we always do. Slide two
says I feel like a number becauseit is a status show. Then,
of course slide three we added AhJenny Jenny back from uh once again back
(05:21):
from me and Hawsard's day too oldfor you and a P Douctor Priquett and
Jason Bryant to understand it, uhto remember it? Let me get it.
The iconic song icon have anything todo with that? Oh yeah,
that's very iconic. Yeah, Iwas. I was just more or less
teasing me and Hazard for being oldand being jealous of you guys are so
(05:44):
young. Okay. The opinions expresson this show do not necessarily reflect any
policies or opinions of the NWCA.And once again, Gormley does a lot
of the the slide shows on thisor sometimes he says Matt stats, opinions,
and Hazard and Jason might not agreewith Gormley. So just so you
know, with all that show,now, one of the things I've realized,
(06:10):
as you can see you're on slidefive, matt status is based on
numbers, stats and that stuff,and then it can lead to opinion.
Okay. I got a great textfrom doctor Bobby Palell, orthopedic surgeon from
Willom and Mary back when we hada team, and it became apparent to
me that I didn't explain this wellenough to people. Okay, this is
(06:30):
a numbers show, okay, andthen we can, like, for example,
on this show, then I canrecommend to doctor Priquette and Mike Moyer
on what maybe they should pursue tohelp grow the sport. Okay, so
it's based on numbers. Now,with that being said, there's a reason
that there's not just Gormley on thisshow. There's a reason we have Jason
(06:54):
and Kevin because they know a hellof a lot more about the sport than
I do, so they can givetheir opinion. And then at time we
have guests on the show, andthis month and last month of course our
doctor Briquette. I wish the wholeworld was about numbers, but it's not.
Okay, Now, let's then startwith this thing. As we do
every week, we put on howmany college teams there are, because the
(07:18):
one thing I get asked more thananything else is how many college teams are
there? And of course some specificslike does this school have a team?
Does that school have a team?Well, now there's five hundred and one
men and women's NAIA and NCAA teams. That is just great news, guys.
(07:39):
That is the most ever. Sowe're very happy about that. Okay,
now let's start going into what thisshow is all about. Now.
We learned on episode twenty six,which was part one, that the biggest
correlation state by state in high schoolwas the population of that state. Okay,
(08:01):
there's nothing we can do here orthe NWCA can do to change population,
right, people move where they move. Uh. Moyer does a lot
of good things, but he can'treally influence population all over the country.
Okay, so give it a try. Oh yeah, he would give it
a trial. Yeah yeah, wonderwhy Yeah, he'd call all of us
(08:26):
up and wonder why we haven't changedit. Okay, So convince me to
move to Lancaster, Pennsylvania one onceupon a time. So he does have
the ability to get people to move. Oh yes, yes, And I
moved up to detail too for awhile, so I agree. Okay.
Now, okay, just like Internationalwrestl we have two periods on this first
(08:46):
period happens to be girls. Secondperiod happens to be boys. Okay.
Now. One of the most famousand probably the most watched movie of all
time in American history is The Wizardof Oz and there's a is seen in
there when the good Witch of theNorth Glinda, tells Dorothy it's always best
to start at the beginning, inother words, where the yellow brick road
(09:07):
starts. So where does Gormley thinkit's best to start at? This?
Okay? Is what state sanctioned andwhen? Okay for women's high school wrestling.
Okay, now, One of thethings about this, to use an
old accounting term, you only getone bite of this apple. In other
words, you can only sanction forthe first time one time. Right.
(09:31):
Once you've done that, you can'tkeep resetioning. Now Slide twelve, we
have a list because people have askedme this and I wanted to thank Sally
and her crew wrestle like a girl. I went onto their website and got
this information. It shows you wheneach state was sanctioned, what year,
and you can see, guys,it's a recent phenomenon. It's really just
(09:54):
been going on since twenty eighteen,and it's great for the sport. Like
when I was living right near Moyerin Lancaster County, there was only a
five or six. Now we have, you know, forty five if you
count emerging sports status in a fewstates. Okay, Slide thirteen, state
(10:18):
sanctioning just means more. Okay,what this slide shows you highlighted in red
is the eighth is the number ofstates that were sanctioned and their multiplier compared
to all states. And I doit one year out, two years out,
three years out. Obviously the stateshave sanctioned in twenty three I can
only do one year because it's twentyfour yet. Okay. So what we've
(10:45):
learned here, okay, is thatI'm not going to read you all these
numbers. I'll just give you thetotal summation of this. There's a stats
term called stochastic dominance, okay.And when I first said this to Kevin,
he thought I was saying scholastic dominancemeaning you know, yeah, meaning
(11:07):
like Blair's really good scholastically. That'snot what I meant at all. It's
a statistical term, okay. Andbasically what we're seeing here is the state
sanctioning has a stochastic dominance over thestates that are that are just all states,
so there is some there there wheresanctioning that sport has really helped each
(11:31):
of these states. Okay. Now, I think it's great for all the
people and all the states that gotthis done. I don't want to list
anybody because I might leave somebody out, so I'm just giving a hats off
to everybody that was involved in thatand the importance of it. Okay.
Now, based on the survey thatJackie sent out, and Jackie and Kevin,
(11:56):
if you have anything while I'm talking, I want to slow me down
pipe in, because of course Jackieknows much more about this than I do,
and because of her voice, Imight just have to keep on talking.
Okay, is there a higher growthrate in states that have dual meet
girl state titles versus one that don't? Okay, yes, there is.
(12:18):
Okay, there's a much higher multiplier. It's four point three versus two point
five to four if there's no dualmeat tournament. Okay, Now we did
learn and now this is one ofthe thirty nine states that have the survey
filled out, not all fifty statesand fifty one if you count DC.
(12:39):
Now we learned on episode twenty sixwhere we had to control for a few
things based on population. So whatwe did on this there's three possibility Now
we're talking about states. Excuse me, if a girl can wrestle in a
boy's division. Okay, there's threepossible answers. Yes, if there's no
(13:07):
girls team, Yes, even ifthey have a girls team, and know
if there's a girl's team. Okay. The highest growth rate is yes,
if there's no girls team, theycan wrestle the boys. Then know if
there's a girls team, and thelowest one is if you can wrestle there,
even if there's a girl's team.So what we did for category two,
(13:31):
we controlled for California and Washington becausethey are in the mature line of
this, even though it's recent relativeterms, right, So even when you
control for that, Okay, it'sstill best to let girls wrestle girls.
Okay, Now, if there isno girls team, sure, let them
(13:54):
wrestle boys teams. But if youwant to know what we found statistically,
girls wrestling, girls helped grow thesport. Okay, that's as bluntly as
I can put it. I canI say something there short. My son's
(14:15):
a coach and he's had girls onhis team for the past ten fifteen years,
but one or two at a time. And two years ago he had
five girls on the team. Theyhad their first DAID championship. Last year
they got emergent growth status. Thisyear he had sixteen girls come out,
(14:37):
and he's had five more since then. He's lost a couple, he loses.
He loses kids come out every yearand he loses a certain percentage the
same basically the same percentage of girlsstopped wrestling, but just to just triple
the growth, just because they knewthere was a place to go. For
girls. Well, that's Kevin,that's that's a great explanation. That is
(15:03):
what we're finding is that if girlsknow they can have other girls to wrestle
with in the room, it's makingthem more comfortable. Obviously, representation matters
in a lot of ways. Ifyou see other if you see other girls
doing what you want to do,it's going to make you more comfortable.
And it's going to make those girlsthat maybe not even considered wrestling in the
(15:24):
past think, oh maybe I canwrestle too. That representation never used to
be there. And so Kevin,I think what you're explained with your son's
team is the perfect example of that. Thank you, Kevin. It is
it is one of these things thatit could be on a school by school
(15:45):
basis when you switch to girls justwrestling girls. And I don't have an
answer for that, but I youknow, I obviously know Kevin Son very
well and he's one of the premiercoaches in the country. I mean,
you know, so it's something thatI think shows like this can help out
and say it is best of girls, russell girls, but sometimes there's not
(16:07):
enough girls in the room, right. So what you guys were saying so
let's move on now. You guysjust discussed what I said on the slides
up to you know, up thenumber twenty. There, you guys discuss
it. Well, So let's gipto twenty. Where does the number of
divisions of state have affect the growthrate across the state? Okay? The
answer that is no. Okay.As you see there, there's twenty seven
(16:30):
states with just one division we're talkingto girls, and then twelve states with
one or more. Okay, Andit doesn't really affect a multiplier of the
growth and all that. So that'sjust something that should be left up to
the state and go from there.Okay. Another thing I noticed in the
(16:51):
survey that doctor Priquette and WCA sentme, some states allow more than one
female wrestler from a school in thesame weight class. Okay, does this
affect the growth? No, itdoes it? Okay. However, I
think it's great to have more peoplewith a chance to do it. Just
(17:11):
as a fan, I would loveto see it, but it's not something
that we can say affects the growthof the sport. So I think that
gorms. I think that the thingthere is that also is mirrored in the
college space as well right now,for the growth of the sport. You
know, in the college space,in the NCAA and the NAIA, you
can enter more than one at aweight class heading into the regional or the
(17:37):
conference tournaments for an AIA and thenthe national tournament. And again it's people
may question why that is, especiallybecause they're so used to the men's side
right where you have a wrestler forthe spot. But again, it's about
growing the sport. Let's give moreopportunities so that we can get more people,
more women, especially we can getmore women wrestling. I'm all for
(18:00):
it, Doctor Piquette, I agreetotally with you. You said that much
clearer than I did, even withno voice. Okay, So to summon
up what we do, what wedo in slide twenty two is you know
what I'm saying here, and I'venever been a fan of Big Brother,
you know, looking over anyone soldier. Let the states decide, the school's
(18:21):
decide, you know its states shouldmake a decision based on their own stuff.
James Madison wrote something about this whenhe wrote the Constitution. Now,
the problem with James Madison is notthe person the school. They need two
wrestling teams okay, and I'm allfor them starting those two. Okay.
(18:44):
Now, next, does keeping ateam score at the individual state tournament affect
the growth of the sport compared toteams that don't? Okay, it really
doesn't, although there's only seven statesthat don't keep that, so once again,
it's hard to draw judgment on that. So I don't really think we
(19:07):
could recommend to anybody keeping score becauseof this reason. I'm all for keeping
score because somebody should win, somebodyshould come in second, et cetera.
Okay, So I think that onthis, Glenn, I think that it's
interesting if you think about this inconjunction with what we looked at a little
bit ago with if they're having aduel event. So it's interesting to see
(19:33):
how the team overall team component impacts, right. You know, certainly we
know, and I mean you canthink about that. I know you're a
numbers guy, but we can thinkabout that more from a psychological side of
things sometimes too, in respect tobeing a part of something, supporting a
team, women sort of have alittle bit more of that, right.
(19:53):
They want to be a part ofsomething and they want to you know,
they want to have that relation shipwith other people. Very relationship based women
are and team A team aspect providesthat relationship based piece. So that's why
I was not surprised to see thefact that a gleut the fact that having
(20:14):
a dual championship is good, rightbecause women want to have that aspect where
they have the relationships and being ableto support a team versus just an individual
gives that big piece of relationship building. To me, there was something.
There was something interesting that I sawa couple of weekends ago, track lost
(20:37):
that you know, they lost everythingfor like an hour, yep, And
I was at a boys tournament andit just basically came to a halt.
And then there was a couple oflike memes online or reels the next day
and a couple of girls tournaments.They turned it into an organized dance session.
(21:00):
And it was only at the girlstournament that that happened. But it's
like you just said, they tendto, you know, have a more
unified feeling about things. It wasit was really great to watch. That
is great guys, and you know, to summon up, I'm all for
keeping score and there should be awinner and of course it you know,
(21:22):
individual state tournaments, I mean,if we didn't keep scoring eighty eight and
eighty nine, I couldn't rub itin Moyer's face every year that we Mary
won the tournament. You know,anybody could have said who won it?
But we kept scoring, we won. Okay. So now we're skipping on
to the second period like they're doingin US wrestling. It's it's boys,
(21:44):
okay. And the same thing thatdoctor Purkett sent out surveys on many other
shows, we talk about how theinclusion of women and women's teams and colleges
have in mind mind saved men's wrestling. Okay. So one of the things
I did then here is did sanctionDid the sanctioning revolution and girls spill over
(22:11):
to the boys? Okay? Sowe have this done in a couple periods,
twenty thirteen to seventeen and then twentyeighteen to twenty three. Some people
might say, well, there's onemore year in the second group. Yeah,
but we had COVID, so it'sreally the same amount. Okay,
boys wrestling was in high school wasdecreasing from thirteen to seventeen, then from
(22:34):
eighteen, as we saw in aprevious slide, that's when the sanctioning of
girls high school wrestling started to explodefrom eighteen to twenty three. Boys wrestling
is now growing again, and youcan see there's a much larger increase in
NCAA men's teams. Because what's goingto happen now that we have more girls
(22:57):
high school Russell's, There's going tobe more college wrestlers because these girls are
not going to stay young all thetime, right, and thereby there's going
to be more men's So women orgirls with everyone to say, sanctioning high
school sports now or a couple ofyears from now will lead to more men's
(23:22):
college teams. Okay. I thinkthat's an important factor for everyone my generation
and male to realize how important itis. Okay, Now, on the
next slide there, I have acouple quotes because I've been saying for a
while how women have helped men,and a lot of guys my age just
(23:45):
don't believe me on it. MarkTwain once said it's easier to fool people
than to convince them they have beenfooled. Okay, and guys, I'm
going to say this bluntly my generation, guys, you've been fooled. Okay,
Hi, period, women are helpingus. Title nine is not the
(24:07):
reason that we lost wrestling. Thereason is because we didn't react. Well,
Okay, there's no fool like anold fool, right, Okay.
Slide twenty eight. Having a dualmeat state tournament has no statistical effect on
the boys' high school growth rate.Okay. Once again, do I think
it's a good idea to have one? Heck yes, okay, But I'm
(24:32):
saying that so people can get thechance to wrestle and somebody can win a
tournament and brag about it and allthat stuff. And it's not messing mainly
for the growth of the tournament.It's for the good of it. Okay.
Now, there's a few states boysstates that do not keep score in
(24:56):
Inanville State tournament. Okay, we'vealready reviewed that in the girls. Why
we keep it? I could repeatthe same reason, but I don't want
to pick on Mike. Okay,So there's not really much of a difference.
But there's so few states, onlysix that don't keep score, so
we really can't judge anything from that. Okay. It's just one of these
(25:21):
things that we're not really sure.And two of these states, Illinois and
Maryland, Okay, didn't have anywrestling in twenty twenty one because of COVID
and stuff like that. So there'sreally some moving parts to make it hard
to say to anything different in that. Okay, does it matter if the
(25:42):
duel meet is before or after?We really don't know. Okay, because
so few states haven't after that,we don't know. That's once again go
back to James Madison, the politiciannot to college. Let the states decide,
you know, let everyone decide what'sbest for them. Does it matter
(26:03):
for growth for boys high school ifthe competition limit is team or individual?
No, it doesn't. It doesn'tmatter for the growth of that of the
high school boys. Okay, differentstates have different reasons. The next show,
we're going to get into how manymatches people wrestling college now compared to
(26:26):
the old days. Okay, Slidethirty three. Does the number days the
individual state tournament have an effect onthe boys high school growth rates? No?
Okay, My guess is only twostates have a four day tournament Iowa,
Missouri, and then and even amounthave a two or three day tournament.
(26:49):
My guess is they have it longerbecause people come out to Iowa eighty
thousand people in twenty twenty two.Okay, by producing revenue, I think
it's a revenue thing. I'm ascapitalist as it gets, so I'm all
for it. Okay. Now we'regonna sum this up on a white paper
(27:15):
one page, or that happens tobe two pages, whatever you want to
call it. One for girls,one for boys. I said in an
earlier slide show that we have otherpeople on the show that know more about
the sport than I do. Ijust happen to be good with numbers.
Okay, I'm gonna let you guysdiscuss this slide. But first, before
(27:37):
we do this, we're going toskip to slide thirty six and then come
back to thirty five. Okay.Jason Curry Regner, one of the great
people at NWCA, sent me somestuff this morning. He thought it was
going to be good for the show. Thank you for getting it to me,
Curry, big, big help.Okay. From twenty seventeen through now,
(28:03):
there are thirty two different states thathave had an NWCA Leadership Academy.
Okay, I'm gonna let you afterI discuss the numbers, Jackie talk about
that. I did help the NWCout without that with that, but Jackie
knows it much better than me.Okay, there's eighteen states that have not.
(28:25):
Now, the states that have hadit tend to be the larger states
boys wrestling. This is just withboys, because girls wrestling, of course,
we know, was correlated so muchwith state sanctioning. We don't know
if they're having it geographically, likefor example, Moyer's offices in PA.
You know, Pennsylvania's in PA.Two. Okay, So, but the
(28:51):
bottom line to this, eighty percentof the growth in boys high school wrestling
from two thousand and seven to todaytwenty twenty three are from states that have
had leadership academies. Okay, I'mgoing to repeat that, guys, eighty
(29:11):
percent of the growth comes from thosestates. Okay. Now, I can't
say for sure, Chicken her egg. Like you know, I've said this
so many times, correlation doesn't provecausality, right. However, here it
looks like there's something there. Andwhat makes it more special that the states
happen to be the bigger states.They're usually a mature business where the growth
(29:33):
states the ones that haven't had it, would probably grow at a faster percentage.
So let's look at that the oneswith the leadership academy are growing at
sixteen percent, the ones without thirteenand a half. Okay, so there's
really no reason not to do this. I think it's a great thing.
(29:53):
At your disposal. Now we're goingto go back, please, Jason,
to thirty five, and I'm goingto let you guys, three of you
guys talk about what you think mightbe helping this the growth of boys and
girls wrestling that you cannot definitely puta number on, Kevin, why don't
you start us out, buddy,Okay that there are a couple of things
(30:14):
I thought of and I and Iwent and checked and Virginia has one hundred
and forty sanctioned clubs across the acrossthe state. And I think that and
that's been in growth, and Ithink that's and that's led to more participation.
It keeps the kids interested longer.You know, a lot of times
(30:38):
you get kids, you know,they've got a youth club, but then
there's not much for them between thatand high school. Now they have a
summer program, and again it's onehundred and forty across the state, and
it's and it's done a really goodjob. And I also think just you
know, there's probably no statistical wayto do this, but but tradition probably
(31:02):
has a lot to do. Astate that has a really strong tradition,
you know, it's probably coming backstronger now. But but I think one
thing I was thinking about when youwere talking, we were talking about growth
and the and the duel meet.I wonder, but I think dual meets
mean more for attendance than they dofor growth. I can remember when,
(31:29):
when, when, when when therewas real district when when there was fifteen
twenty matches a year, there weren'tfifty, and they'd have these duel meets,
and we had three four thousand peopleat a duel meet. When it
got to where then now the kidswere going to all day sit in a
you know, a gym all dayinstead of just having a match on Wednesday
(31:52):
night. People don't want to gosit in gym for twelve hours, Kevin.
I think one thing when it comesto the duel meets, and we're
looking at the growth from the boysand girls side of things, is access
points. With the growth of women'swrestling, you know, look at the
(32:15):
top attendance team in NCAA Division onewrestling for the last decade and a half
and probably historically has been the Universityof Iowa in those eras where Gable was
building those monster teams. A lotof those championships were also held on campus.
The opportunity to get up close andpersonal at to that you're as soon
to be heroes was built on campusand at dual meets and at places where
(32:38):
there was something to see and somethingto root for. The men always had
that. Now, when you takeyour daughter to Carver Hawkeye, unless they're
a wrestling junkie, it's not thesame until eighty two oh seven or I
believe that was the number right jackie. Until you've got something they want to
see, that's something that's like them. Okay, you know you'll have like
(33:00):
you know, I'm taught teaching mydaughters about various sports. We were watching
the women's volleyball Championship yesterday, orwe've you know, had had my oldest
daughter, you know, root forhell and an Adeline, so you know,
in getting him into hockey and gettinghim take him to the same Cloud
State women's games as well as themen's games. But when you have a
sporting event, that's the girls arethe center stage. And now college women
(33:23):
and Olympic level women professional women's athletesin their sport are performing, and they
have access to them in a dualmeat situation where they can see them up
close, they can watch Like Ialways use Brent Metcalf as an example on
the boy side, Like there arekids that grew up going to Carver that
wanted to be like Brent Metcalf becausethey saw him wrestle live. That opportunity
(33:45):
in a dual meet affords itself alot better than am I going to miss
Brent Metcalf because he's pinning a kidin fifteen seconds over on Matt a Ab
in the South annex of Mega Tournamentthree. So I believe the duel meets
and with its growth level and women'swrestling is still new, so the opportunity
for the growth points from a dualmeet on the women's side is still great.
(34:08):
I think we've hit that kind ofthat. You know, we know
where that's going to be on themen's side, But the girls and the
women's side of things, when weget more women's programs and we get better
draws, we can see those highschool I think that's going to affect the
growth in the states that have collegewomen's teams, especially at the bigger schools,
once maybe the P five's and theivy start saying, Okay, we're
(34:29):
going to do this more. We'renot going to sit here and throw all
our money at nil and and proyou know, you know, basically professional
college football. So I think thedual meat growth potential at the college level
to impact the dual meet growth potentialat the high school level is kind of
trickled down, and I think that'sgoing to make an impact. And I
think, you know, again,people talk about going it's not just college,
(34:50):
let's go my high school duel meet'sgrowing up. Like oh man,
I remember going to the Coston Duelsand we had to play sold out and
yeah, like like you know Kevinsaying in those duel meets, the girls
are getting there, and I thinkwe still have big DULs. Kids want
to be around successful programs, theydon't they want to compete in a sport
where they're again to the point aboutbeing part of a team, being part
of a community, and a packedgym will impact that with girls wrestling,
(35:13):
I believe, just like it diddecades ago with the boys. So I
just don't I don't think we're thereyet. I think those numbers are yet
to be realized because it's still newin a lot of places. And once
we get those that, I thinkeight years four to eight years is where
we're really going to see these gymsget packed more and more and more.
And to another point is the powerprograms. Once the power programs in these
(35:34):
high school states get behind it,then all of a sudden, where's your
excuse? Well? Easton doesn't doit, so we don't need to do
it. Nazareth doesn't. You know. Oh wait a minute, Blair Academy
they do it, Sat Edward,you know, well I think that's an
all boy school. That's a badexample. But like when we look at
the schools that, oh, thesetraditional programs now have girls wrestling teams,
I think those little programs that mighthave been detracting a little bit have no
(35:57):
excuse and that will also help.So those are my two little so boxes
of where I think the girl's growthcan come from, the dual meat in
the small town atmosphere. Thank you, Jason. I think I think building
off of what Jason said a littlebit, and also what Kevin said,
representation matters, like I said previously, right, and that's what Jason alluded
(36:20):
to with Carver Hawk i Arena.Right, never before has a young girl
been able to walk into Carver HawkArena and see someone like her wrestling on
the mat. I think it's assimple as that, right, And we
know that we know what wrestling meansto Iowa. Okay, So when wrestling
is coming through these other states andthese other programs where you know, we
(36:44):
have these these amazing women's programs,right, we have Colorado Masa and Colorado.
We have King down in Tennessee,Campbellsville down in Kentucky. You know,
we have these programs building something andhave been building something for years.
You know, look at what JoeNorton's doing up in at North Central in
Illinois. He has fifty women onhis team, you know, like being
(37:07):
able and is winning in one Anational championship last year. You know that
we have young girls that are ableto see this now, Like I want
to go wrestle for Joe Norton upat North Central, and I'm I'm thirty
eight years old, like a littlegirl who sees Yolena out there, or
you know all of his other stars, They're gonna want to be like them.
(37:30):
And I think that we're We haveplatforms now that are allowing us to
showcase that as well. And Ithink that's why I think the growth for
girls in women wrestling can be differentbecause of something you have on the screen
here and flow in social media.It's more accessible very simply put, right,
it's more accessible. You used tohave to take your family out to
(37:52):
Carver Hawkeye Arena to actually watch thatduel. You don't necessarily have to do
that now. And you know,a fan in the middle of nowhere in
Wyoming could watch the Trailblazer duels thatwe were out at Iowa. So there's
just there's just more reach now.And then the second point that I want
(38:13):
to make is simply the social socialacceptability. It's social. It's much more
socially acceptable now for a girl towrestle it than it ever has been in
the history of especially our country.Right, our country for a long time
had ideals as to what a womanshould look like. And you know,
back in the aia W days ofwomen's sports, there was you could play
(38:35):
tennis, you could golf, youcould swim, you could do things that
were considered more gentle. Right,wrestling was never in consideration for a woman
back then. Now we're we welive in a we live in a time,
thankfully, where it's much more sociallyacceptable for women to do the same
things as men. And I thinkthat that's a big piece of this too.
(38:57):
You know, I have a nineyear old little nephew who wrestles,
and he has They've got probably almostas many little girls out there wrestling when
my brother sends me pictures from hispractices as they do little boys, and
I think that's I think that's amazing. I'm pretty fired up. I actually
get to go speak at their practicenext week, and I'm excited because I
(39:20):
know there's gonna be little girls outthere, and I know I get to
stand up in front of them asa woman who works full time in the
sport of wrestling. And that's notlost on me. That's something I think
is important in there. There aren'tvery many women that get to do that,
and I'm very cognizant of that aswell. And like I said,
I'm really excited to be able tostand up in front of these little little
(39:42):
girls in the club, in thisclub in the middle of nowhere in Illinois,
frankly, and show them that womencan be a part of this sport
at all levels and in all ways, and I think that that's something that
is very different now as well.Jackie, thank you for that input.
Thank you for that. Guys,Guys, I appreciate that input there.
(40:05):
I needed that help with this.Now we're gonna skip here to something.
The next slide. It's just somethinginteresting since we're a stats show. Okay,
we did many shows. It'll beslide thirty eight, Jason, we
did many shows on team scoring andhow it could change and stuff like that.
For the first time ever, ESPNtelevised a dual meet live. Okay,
(40:30):
as I'm sure you're all aware,the Hawk guys beat the Cyclones eighteen
fourteen. If they use mad Statsmargin of victory scoring, Iowa State would
have beaten iye on. Okay,Now, that doesn't happen real often,
as we said on the shows,but there's going to be some mis has
happened, and this is one ofthem. And I will say this,
(40:51):
being the stats guy, the chancesof Kevin Dresser liking my scoring system is
much better than brands liking it basedon that result. At least at least
that match correct. Okay. Now, next news is a little news here,
and of course this show does havea big Virginia bias, since Kevin
(41:12):
I are Willim and Mary Lomon,Jason Bryant, you know as a Precoca
guy and an old Dominion guy anothertimer five. Yes, yes, Jason,
Enough about Glenn's old bar. We'llget back to the real stuff here.
I'm exactly Jason was part of ourteam. Basically, I saw him
so often. So Janey is yeah, yeah, Surry Cheney isn't being inducted
(41:42):
to the e I w a Hallof Fame this March at Bucknell during the
tournament. I'm already all over everyWillym and Mary guy to make that tournament.
Hope to see all you guys.How good was Terry Cheney. He
was so good He made me andPink has looked like we knew what we
were talking about, okay, whichwe clearly don't. Then we got a
(42:02):
picture here. I asked Torry tosend me a picture, and this is
a Terry in a nutshell. Hewanted his whole team to be around him.
That's when we won the nineteen eightyeight Virginia state title, and then
our list all the William and MaryEastern Champs ever real quick, Sweezy Aragona,
Cheney, McLachlan, that's Mart McLaughlan, Buzzwin, Jesske Larrymore, Cheney
(42:25):
again, and Cheney was ow bothtimes. So hots off, Turry,
great friend. He means a lotto me as a human being, and
I'll be happy to be there watchinghim getting inducted. And that's pretty much
to say, Hey, good jobfor the York guy too, because they
were arrival at high school. Grantedhe was a little bit before my time,
(42:47):
but he's also a product of thePeninsul Wrestling Association, the wrestling club
that yours true also came out of. Even though I didn't, I did
trace amount of wrestling compared to Terrycoming through. So yeah, yeah,
you've helped to sport out a lotof other ways, Jason, but I
just wanted to that's Sally. That'sprobably going to be our last thing ever
(43:09):
in the IWA. But we're goingto go out in a good note.
Now, Kevin, here's your partof the show now where you're going to
read us episode twenty seven. Matchstats notes one for girls and then notes
two for boys. Take it away, Kevin. Okay, the largest factor
that's under Our control for girls wrestlinggrowth is state sanctioning. Number two,
(43:34):
high school girls should have a statedual meet tournament to help growth. Three,
girls should wrestle on girls things ifit's at all possible, If the
girls team, If the girls schoolhas a girls tend to help the growth.
Four. If the high school doesn'thave a girls team, let the
girls wrestle on the boys team,but encourage them to start a girls team,
(44:00):
And of course that goes with coachesand a lot of other things.
There's some hurdles there, but ittrust me, it's coming. Five.
The number of divisions in a stateand allowing more than one entry per weight
class per school has no effect onthe growth rate of girls participation, So
just make your decisions based on what'sgood for the wrestlers. Number six.
(44:25):
On the boy's side, the adventof girls wrestling has coincided with the renewed
growth of high school boys wrestling.We saw right before the girls took off,
the boys were still on that steadydown term. As soon as the
girls took off, the boys startedback out. Having a dual meet tournament,
keeping score at the individual attorney andcompetition limits have no effect on growth.
(44:50):
Rates for boys high school wrestling.Eight. The number of days for
the individual state attorney and if itis this last event have no provable effect
on the boys high school growth rate. Nine, like the state individual tournaments,
is most likely based on revenue potential. And we saw when we watched
that one slide four day tournament inIowa. Yes, because they had eighty
(45:15):
thousand participants. And we learned thenthat Glenn is a capitalist. That of
course we all do that. Ten. There are factors determine the growth in
high school boys in certain state thatare nearly impossible to systemically prove. That's
why we need the NWCA on theNWCA weight class in states. The NWCA
(45:38):
is focused on growth and growing thesport through its core competencies and part of
that and it's will make it tena go to local NWCA leadership Academy.
It's a great thing for your team. Thank you very much, Kevin.
(46:01):
And before we have going away thingsnext month's show January okay, once again
we have Santa there and then Smokeydress to Santa. Okay, we're going
to go through the number of matches. Now. We don't have enough yet
on women because women's wrestling has beenaround the college long enough. It's not
that we're forgetting about them. There'sa reason the number of matches the top
(46:24):
male wrestlers have wrestled through the years. We want to see what trends this
is, showing how it compares withother sports, et cetera. So that's
going to be January seventeenth, twentytwenty four, three pm. Jason,
Jackie, Kevin, anything else tosay, Merry Christmas, Mary Festivals for
(46:47):
those two you know, you know, those those Stanzas out there, they
love their festivals. Just thank you, thank you for the research, thank
you for the opportunity, and thankyou to everyone for wanting to grow the
sport. Agreed, Thank you guys, and on behalf of Matt Stats.
Jason Bryant, Kevin Hazard, ourspecial guest doctor Jackie Piquette, Murray,
(47:09):
Christmas, Happy New Year, Sametime next month, guys,
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