March 31, 2025 • 30 mins
In this episode of the Meaning Project Podcast, Dr. Dan interviews good friend and partner in Ketamine work, Julie Addis, a leading figure in ketamine-assisted psychotherapy. They discuss the evolution of ketamine treatment, its mechanisms, and the profound effects it has on patients suffering from treatment-resistant depression and other mental health issues. Julie shares inspiring success stories from her clinic, emphasizing the importance of realistic expectations and the role of therapy in conjunction with ketamine treatment. The conversation also addresses the safety of ketamine and its potential future in mental health care.
Takeaways
Takeaways
- Ketamine has been used for over 50 years as an anesthetic.
- The antidepressant effects of ketamine have been studied for about 20 years.
- Many patients experience treatment-resistant depression and struggle with multiple medications.
- Ketamine increases neuroplasticity in the brain, aiding recovery.
- Patients need to engage in therapy alongside ketamine treatment for best results.
- Ketamine is not a one-time cure; it requires ongoing work and integration.
- The safety profile of ketamine is outstanding when used correctly.
- Realistic expectations are crucial for patients undergoing ketamine therapy.
- Support systems can impact the effectiveness of treatment.
- The future of ketamine treatment looks promising with ongoing research.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Hello, everyone, Welcome to the Meeting Project podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
I am your host, doctor daniel A Franz, and as always,
thank you for this opportunity to bring a little bit
of mental health and meaning to your day today. I
am honored, blessed and excited to share with you my
friend and partner in ketamine assisted psychotherapy, Julie Addis. Julie
is the owner, operator, and lead magician with Ketamine is Hope,
(00:47):
the clinic here in my local area Ketamine is Hope
dot com. Julie has as you'll hear, Julie has been
engaged in ketamine therapy for quite a while now, and
as soon as I started taking my class with the
Integrative Psychiatry Institute, I looked around found Julie and I said,
please can I come up to your clinic and just
(01:07):
chat and talk?
Speaker 1 (01:08):
And that has.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Sparked a pretty good friendship and working relationship. Julie hosted
the Clinicians Retreat earlier this year with me, and she
will be the co host of our upcoming Fall Ketamine
Retreat in beautiful Foliage covered Donaldson, Indiana. So more details
(01:32):
to come there, but so I just figured it'd be
fun to have a good chat with Julie. It's always
fun to have a good chat with Julie. Love talking
to her about I figured i'd go ahead and record
this one and share with you.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
So enjoy.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Right, Julie, thank you so much for taking the time
to spend some time with me on the podcast. So
excited to talk about even more. Talk about kenemine. What
let's just start at the beginning. What How long have
you been doing ketemine treatment? What got you involved with it?
Speaker 3 (02:08):
We opened our clinic here in South Bend, Indiana Kedemene's
whole October of twenty twenty three, and that time was probably,
if I backtrack it, probably a year and a half
before that was when I really got the bug to
open up the clinic. And I think I got it,
you know, from just hearing some people's stories about struggling
(02:31):
with various medications without any progress, and actually seeing patients
that I take care of in the indthesual world on
multiple multiple medications. When you'd ask them if they felt better,
they really didn't. So, you know, ketymine has been around
for so long. I've used it in the operating room
and things like that, and they really started within the
(02:52):
last ten years or so looking into the antidepressant effects
of it. So that was when I thought, well about
I try it? Why not? What do I got to lose? Right? Only?
I only lose if I don't try. That was my
thought was. So I opened up the clinic here in
South Bend and yeah, we've had just so many rewarding
(03:13):
stories and on a success.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
I love. I've been part of some of those stories.
I've you know, shared with other therapists some of those stories.
It's been so fun to hear some of them. But
I'm curious. I recall one of my first clients engaging
in clinical trials, right, she you know, had to go
all the way out.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
To Kansas and all this.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
But because of your experience in your day job, you
were familiar with ketymine already because we've been using it
as an anna's not anesthetic anestes.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
Yeah, anesthetic huh.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Yep, yeah for what twenty thirty years now?
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Oh gosh, I mean the drug's been around for fifty
plus yeah plus?
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Okay, okay, So yeah, it was just the depressant of
the antidepressant effects. We started studying in the early two thousands.
How did you kind of make the leap from okay
ketamine as anesthetic to ketymine as.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Mental health treatment, just from.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Kind of researching it myself, you know, kind of diving
in seeing, yeah, googling, like patients who are treatment resistant
you know, what can they do?
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Right? That was that was kind of the big deal.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Is the TRD the treatment resistant depress Gosh yah?
Speaker 3 (04:34):
I mean, like they say, after trying the second antidepressant,
your chance of the chance of success with a third
is like solo ten, ten, fifteen percent. But patients are
on multitude of medicines and you're just really not seeing
the the good benefits from it.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
So yeah, and from your perspective.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
Medicines, Yeah, if the medicines work, why aren't the medicines working?
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Right? That's what I was going to ask.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Why do you know, with your medical background, why do
you think that is what is? First of all, I
agree with you. So many clients come in, you know,
on their third, fourth, fifth antidepressant, and we know the
success rates just go down, or the ones that have
been on the same one for fifteen years, and we
don't even know if they're clinically effective anymore. Why do
(05:21):
you think we have such an issues with medication as
far as it not working well, as far as so
many people on it in.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
It not working.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
No, I don't you know. I always kind of wanted to.
I was starting to think too, since we're getting so
many younger patients. When I say younger, not even twenty.
The list of medicines that they've tried is so long.
You know, have we started to medicate children too young
and then there's not a good coping skills to move
(05:54):
them forward? You know, there's a lot more kids on
even add medicines. I mean, is that official?
Speaker 2 (06:01):
You know?
Speaker 3 (06:02):
There's a great psychiatrist out of California that's actually been
doing I am ketd of mean since two thousand in
his office and he said, certainly there are children that
need that require medication, but his thought is that these
kids' brains now are developing with the medicine in it. Yeah,
(06:23):
and could that be see? Yeah, what are we seeing
results wise?
Speaker 2 (06:28):
You know?
Speaker 3 (06:28):
And our society is so geared towards instant gratification.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Too, right, So we've many people have heard me talk
about that idea that you know, starting kids out too
early rather than just letting him mature in or out
of whatever you're experiencing right sometimes, especially with you know,
young men, little boys. Our education system isn't always meant
for fidgety little gentlemen to sit, you know, and young
(06:58):
ladies as well, right, you know, sid, stay, raise your hand,
be quiet, and all that kind of stuff doesn't quite
work as well anymore these days. And then when we
see them start to fidget right away that you know, well,
let's get them medicated. And what does that do over
the course of ten or twenty years. Yeah, So you
(07:18):
are are so in touch right with with ketamine research,
and I know you go to t Keemy conferences and
you know you've been very involved.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
What what are you seeing or hearing? What are what
are some.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Of the becoming things with ketamine or what are you
hearing in your conferences and the work you do?
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Well, what I'm hearing? I mean, first of all, there's
the excitements there, and I think that I think we're
kind of almost at the tip of the iceberg, so
to speak. I think we've had these discussions before, just
the two of us, right, I mean, so many more
things are coming out, you know, or really you know, dementia,
early Alzheimer's. You forwarded that to me about that all scrosis.
(08:02):
I think I told you I did a patient who
had had long COVID. She had great results. So I
think that we are now the World Health Organization has
classified kenemine as an essential drug, so it's not something
that I think is going to go way. I think
we're just going to keep We're just going to continue
to see all of these very positive effects of ketamine
(08:23):
moving forward. You know, kind of started off right with
treatment resistant depression anxiety PEST, but now it's it's really
just kind of opened up a lot more experiences.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Yeah, it's kind of funny.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
That's what we're That's what we're always chasing, right, how
do we do better with depression, anxiety and PTSD. Those
are always the new medications, the new, the new, the
new treatment modalities E M, d R, things like that.
But you're right, we are seeing so much and in
some of our stories with dementia. I had a story
from my practical experience for somebody with chronic pain woke
up the next day pain free and was just an
(09:00):
amazed by that. What is it about ketamine?
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Why?
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Well, I mean we've only studied it as an anesthetic
and now in the past twenty years we've started to
recognize its antidepressant effects. But maybe if you can, right,
since you are so more knowledgeable about the science, what
is it about the science of ketamine that it has
all of these powerful positive effects.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
Well, a ketamine itself causing you know, an increase in
neuroplasticity in the brain, the brain drive neurotropic factor that
comes into place.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
It's just like kind of like I haven't hooldoge believe
I haven't used that phrase before.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
I haven't used that phrase before. What was that brain right?
Speaker 3 (09:42):
Neurotropic factor BDNF. It releases DDNF. So that's what causes
dan the neuroplasticity.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
And see you have not had had that in training.
It that's the difference between therapist training and medical ture.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
D d n F.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Tell me again, brain direct.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
Bribe neurotropic factor. So, like we've talked about this too,
probably just with not using that terminology, the you know,
the neuronal growth in the brain mm hmm, like budding
le butting leaves on a tree. You know, after a while,
some of these chronic stress situations, there's just some synapses
that have kind of died off. And also then the
(10:23):
kennamine blocks that n MDA receptor, so it releases glutamate,
which is a neurotransmitter you're never gonna get in an
oral medication. Why is that all of these combined, because
it's just the glutamate is not like the neurotransmitter that
you can take orally that that's that comes from the
blockade of the receptor and your brain that will release
(10:45):
that like addicts too, you know, with the addicts with
the synaptic defects. You know, because nobody really wants to
wake up in the morning and say, boy, I really
want to be an addict again today. You brain changes
over time.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Yeah, And that is one thing we talk about a lot,
is the idea that when you engage in repetitive behavior
like addiction or or you know, let's make it even simpler,
like negative self talk that leads to depression, when you
engage in the same behavior over and over, you grow, true,
your brain grows in that direction, and so you develop
(11:27):
these neural pathways that then make it easier to repeat
that behavior. And so then if we are growing neurons
like literally you and I have talked about the beautiful
pictures of like neurons budding, new new dendrites, new tentacles.
We're doing that to the entire brain and so making
(11:47):
it easier to change those neural pathways.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
M okay, if the work from the patient needs to
yeh needs to needs to come into play too.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
What does that mean the work from the patient.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
Well, I think that patients need to understand that ketamine
isn't a pure it's part of a treatment plan. It's
part of your treatment. So we're just being encouraged all
the patients to stay in therapy or if you're not
in therapy, to get into some sort of talk therapy
or even an integration group something, Yeah, to really help
with that, because we don't want patients to feel like
(12:24):
this is the this is the one and done. I'm
going to be I'm cured. You know, there's still a process.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Going back to what you said, we do live in
a time and a culture and a society that wants
the quick fix. And you know that's how we came
to you know, throwing ssries and anti antidepressants, benzo diazepines,
anti anxiety, throwing those around so much and now we're
seeing some potential negative effects. Right, we don't want the
ketamine is not like you said, want and done. But
(12:57):
I tell you what, after you do it, you sure
feel good. It can kind of lead to that idea
of well I'm cured, but no, afterwards, that's when you
do the integration. That's when you do the therapy and
then you know a little bit of maintenance. Now your
recommendation is see your protocol, you do six sessions over
two or three weeks, right.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
Right, So we follow the We follow really the most
current research showing six treatments within a three week period
of time. That's our basis. We have patients who, you know,
they kind of get to the fifth or six and
they're like, yeah, not quite there. So we have done
patients on what we call an induction series, so kind
of that kind of analogy of the stack treatments. We
(13:40):
have done people eight treatments in four weeks. We've had
good results from that too, you know, because like we've
talked Dan, I mean, these patients didn't just it come
to pressed last week. I mean these are patients who
have this is a complex problem here. This has been
ten fifteen years in therapy, and so we're not going
(14:00):
to cure it all. You know, Sometimes patients take are
slower to respond, So you know.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
That's such a good point. By the time they reach
your offices, it may have been ten, fifteen, twenty or
even more years of dealing with it, dealing with different
medications before they before they give this a try. And
that's interesting because that is now what you do strictly
IV in your office, right. Yeah, and so for me
(14:31):
with lozenges that is the recommended course of treatment is eight.
So it's interesting if it's comparable with the different research
is versus IV, I AM and then oral. So maybe
what's this will be fun? I don't think we've ever
talked about this. We've talked about so many, so many stories.
(14:54):
What is your favorite success story? Are a couple of
your favorite success stories?
Speaker 3 (15:00):
Oh boy, huh? Well, I think the one that was
that really stands out in my mind is a woman
who came into us, and I believe it was it
was before Christmas time, and she had a long history
of trauma and suicidal behavior addiction, and she actually got
(15:24):
to infusion number five and she just said, you know,
this isn't working. I said, well, that's you know, that's fine,
and need you're not mandated to come back for your six.
If you don't think it's working, you know, how about
we just you know, to take a break and we
can resume some other time. So I hadn't heard from her,
and I touched base with her therapist, and then her
(15:46):
therapist emailed me on the same day that the patient
called the office, and honestly, she didn't even she didn't
even sound like the same woman. She said that the
effects of it were probably a couple of weeks after
she finished up, but she had a complete enlightenment on
life supposed spiritual, and she had dealt with the addiction
(16:11):
and that was gone. The suicidal thoughts were gone. So
when she came back in for a booster, we honestly
almost didn't even recognize her. She just came bounding in.
She was dressed, nice hair done. Yeah, it was That
was very, very rewarding because we've had a lot. But
(16:34):
another one was somebody really struggling with PTSD from the past,
knowing that things have happened, but weren't able to totally
put it into play, And the ketamine really opened it
up to not totally reliving it. Because that is what
I tell patients too. You know, sometimes things that you
walked away might come up, but that's your psyche saying
(16:57):
it's a safe, safe time for it to come up.
But he was really able to deal with it and
cope with it a lot better because he, you know,
he felt like it was impeding him from leading a positive,
productive life. So the ketemine really helped open that up.
Because like we've talked about that too, like patients are
in therapy for ten fifteen years, like what are you
(17:20):
talking about for them? But the kenemine finally opens it
up enough to okay, this is what it is, let's
deal with it and most forward from here.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Well, and I think it's that combination right of the ketamine,
and you know, yeah, if you're in therapy for ten
or fifteen years, you probably should be finding it a
new therapist. Unless now I do have clients that come
back occasionally after ten or fifteen years, but you know,
it's not it's not like I'm seeing them weekly or twice.
You know, maybe it's a six month or a year
(17:50):
long break. But that idea that you have the kedemy
that kind of opens your brain up to these ideas,
opens your memory up to it. But then also you
have a therapist that you've been working with that you
can then uncork these things and talk about them and
talk through them in a safe environment in a safe way.
(18:11):
That's a lot of what we do for PTSD treatment
is is go through it, but in a safe way,
in a safe setting, in a safe environment, and the
combination of ketamine and good therapy certainly does that. I
wanted that first story he told. Did I happen to
get an email from that therapist as well?
Speaker 3 (18:30):
M h yeah, he said, what did he what did
he say? Like in thirty years, he's never seen something
like this.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Never seen anything like that, Like, yeah, I mean the client, yeah,
walked into his office, Like I didn't even.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
Her no when she called in. I mean, me and
my nurse were literally on the phone and nurse like,
that's not that's actually her. IM like, yeah, that's her.
I her voice was different. She was yeah, engaged, she
was happy, she was It was incredible.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
I'll never forget And I've told this story so many times,
dozens of times by now and hopefully by the end
of my career, hundreds of times, because this is my favorite,
one of my favorite stories, walking into your office that
one of the first clients I sent you on a
Tuesday or Wednesday in my office and just in bad Shait.
I could see it on his face. I could just
(19:23):
feel it in his presence, and he said, you know,
I don't know what to do. I said, I want
you to call Julie. I want you to get set
up with this treatment and we're going to see if
this helps you. And he said all right, and he
got an appointment with you the next week. I was
going to meet him up there, and then he called
me or texted me later that day. He said, man,
I don't dann, I don't think I want to make it.
He was so profoundly suicidal and just wanted to take
(19:46):
his own life. I said, call Julie if you can
get up there, and you got him in the next day.
I couldn't make it.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
You got him in.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
And then when I came back to meet him the
following tuesday, I'm coming in, he had already been there
and was getting and I just heard giggling. I heard
him chatting with your nurse in such a positive way,
like surely that is.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Not my client.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
I just said here last week, and I walk in
and he just looked totally different after treatment. It sold me,
right there and the continued work we've been able to
do together and the people we've been on the help
has been amazing.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
What about any any situation?
Speaker 2 (20:28):
What are maybe some story non I don't know if
you call them non success stories, there are stories that
ongoing or maybe it didn't work so well, you know, I.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
Think I think of the patients who have kind of
didn't really work that well, and then looking back on
fw of them, I started to think that maybe they
just didn't have met as many realistic expectations. Maybe their
expectations were too high because like their family members would say,
(21:00):
oh yeah, I notice a difference, but they know they don't.
So those are the ones that I think are kind
of in that gray area.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Yeah, and I think you and I have talked as well.
One of the concerns always is a person's environment. They
do ketymine treatment with you, they do therapy with me
or another therapist, but we haven't quite involved their environment,
their family system, whatever it is, and they go back
into very similar stressful situations. Well, yeah, nothing's going to
(21:32):
work at that point.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
Yeah, because there wasn't actually an interesting discussion at one
of our conferences about the support person and you know,
the support person. Right, They're used to somebody depressed, depressed, depressed, depressed,
and all of a sudden, now they have all this
life and they're happy. There's not always going to be
(21:59):
like a great connection. There can be some animosity from this,
you know, it just within the situation because you're used
to being a caregiver. So I thought that was like
very interesting because I think about it. I mean, somebody
support people could be like, Okay, well, why now are
you happy? Why couldn't you been happy before?
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Yeah? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (22:23):
Years?
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Yeah, you know that's interesting. That is right out of
the addictions model, right. The codependent enabler lives with the
addiction for so they become used to it and in
some unhealthy ways support it. And then the attict gets
healthy and the other person's like why now, why are
you better? What am I supposed to do?
Speaker 3 (22:45):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Oh that's interesting. Mm.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
Even like with some of the couple's research with PTSD
that's coming home spouse basically as PTSD secondary.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Yeah, so I was just intellucture last week actually talking
about m d m A. The research was MDMA for
couples where one has PTSD but they both received the
treatment because as the partner of somebody with PTSD.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Well, you're kind of.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Being traumatized in some ways as well. Yes, yeah, well too,
we've we've we've covered a lot already. Any what what
are the top one or two things you want people
to know about kenemine treatment.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
Well, kendemy treatment is safe when I give it a
very sub anesthetic dose, and you know there's good and
bad to the incident with Matthew Perry, I think it's
it's kind of I think as providers we should take
that almost in a positive way to be able to
educate the public more. His case was an extreme because
(23:55):
when it initially came out in the news, it came
out that he had received to kenemiine IV treatment a
week and a half prior to his death. Well, Ketymine
IV clear's your system in four and a half hours,
So a week and a half later, that's not the
cause of his death. Then it was found to be
in his stomach, and that is I think as time
(24:16):
went on, they were realizing that the amount of ketymine
he was getting. I think he had four injections that
day alone. I am injections. So if you were to
look at somebody's ketymine level. If we were to draw
your blood work after a kenemine IV session here at
the clinic, the ketemine in your system would be between
(24:38):
seventy eight to one to fifty nilograms per m l.
To operate on somebody in the operating room under a
general anesthetic, it would be two thousand nilograms per mL.
Matthew Pirie's was overtreight thousand. So do you see like
the extreme of that. Okay, So I like to educate
(25:00):
people like, this is a sub anesthetic dose. This is
very low dose. Now, are there some patients that we
don't want in here? Absolutely? We don't want somebody actively
actively using a legal substance. We don't want you know,
schizophrenic patients aren't a good candidate. They're in a psychotic
event and a bipolar we have uncontrolled hypertension. I mean,
(25:23):
there's really not a lot of outliers. I mean, kettymine
is so safe. That's why it's been around forever as
an anesthetic. We can give it patients who are very
unstable in the appring room, so it doesn't agreet for
respirations and things.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Yeah, we hear about that all the time, that the
safety profile is just outstanding. And that's I think, that's
what you just said is so helpful. So after a
session with you between seventy and one hundred on the
operating table, you're getting two thousand, and Matthew Perry was
around three thousand. So that's the idea that seventy to
(26:02):
one hundred compared to what you would get if you're
having a knee replacement or something like that, but seventy
two hundred and with such powerful positive effects.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
I mean, look, you and I work in this.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Pretty much every day, and so you know, we are
obviously believers. And sometimes it may I know when I
talk sometimes about it may sound like I'm touting this
miracle drug or something like that. But in some ways,
my goodness, it does. When you think about the idea
that it impacts glutamate and we cannot give you glutamate orally,
and what a powerful neural transmitter it is, and it
(26:41):
just increased neuroplasticity.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
It is some pretty magical stuff.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
Uh huh. It is great. People don't need to be
suffering for so long. Yeah, there's always time to rewrite
your story, so to speak.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Right, you're so right, and that's what I say, like
at the very least, because it is so safe because
you're getting such a low dose, and if you've been
suffering that long, why not?
Speaker 3 (27:09):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (27:11):
Awesome. Well, once again, Julie, thank you so much for
taking time on one of your very rare days off.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
I really appreciate that. I know how rarely you do
take time away. How can people find out more about you.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
And your clinic and what you're doing?
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Sure?
Speaker 3 (27:26):
Well, first, thanks thank you Dan for all of all
you've done. I really appreciate our friendship. And we have
so much more to do, don't we. But it's exciting.
I mean, it's so exciting.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
I think we almost need to do this podcast every
time we have coffee, just so people get to hear
the ideas that we're coming up with, because we come up.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Yes, hey, check out, we're together, Julie. Let's go ahead
and announce we've got a retreat we're planning.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
Yes, we are.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
You know, we're so in the early stages. I forgot
the day September twenty sixth, is that right? Yeah, September twenty.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Six beautiful Donaldson, Indiana. You get to see all the
fall foliage. The room we have opens up to this
beautiful garden in Lake It's going to be you know,
it's the similar to what we did back in January February,
but ideally September twenty six will be far less cold and.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Far more pretty to look at. So very exciting to
find out more about Julie and what she's doing.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Check out ketamine ishope dot com. And you know, if
you're interested, you can contact either one of us and
we will get you to the right person. So Julie,
I on our friendship as well as you said, I'm
so excited for the work we have ahead of us.
Thank you for taking time and have a lovely Friday
and a beautiful weekend you too, Thanks Dan, And there
(29:00):
you go.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
The lovely Julia.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Addas of Ketamine is Hope Ketamine is Hope dot com.
September twenty six, twenty twenty five, we'll be hosting a
one day Ketamine retreat and lovely Donaldson, Indiana. You can
find out more at Danielafrans dot com. That's d A
(29:22):
n I E L A f R A n z
dot com, or you can connect with me on the socials.
Primarily these days, I'm using LinkedIn, a little bit of
Instagram and some Facebook.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
I gotta get better at that.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Maybe one of these days, I know Julie's talking about
a social media market or.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Maybe I'll do that too.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
But until then, you know, check back on the website.
I know you can subscribe to the daniel A. Frans
Monday Morning Mental Health and Meaning Update. So hey, as always,
thank you for this opportunity to bring some meaning, purpose
and resilience to your day.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
Take care, S.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
S S S S S
Hello, everyone, Welcome to the Meeting Project podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
I am your host, doctor daniel A Franz, and as always,
thank you for this opportunity to bring a little bit
of mental health and meaning to your day today. I
am honored, blessed and excited to share with you my
friend and partner in ketamine assisted psychotherapy, Julie Addis. Julie
is the owner, operator, and lead magician with Ketamine is Hope,
(00:47):
the clinic here in my local area Ketamine is Hope
dot com. Julie has as you'll hear, Julie has been
engaged in ketamine therapy for quite a while now, and
as soon as I started taking my class with the
Integrative Psychiatry Institute, I looked around found Julie and I said,
please can I come up to your clinic and just
(01:07):
chat and talk?
Speaker 1 (01:08):
And that has.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Sparked a pretty good friendship and working relationship. Julie hosted
the Clinicians Retreat earlier this year with me, and she
will be the co host of our upcoming Fall Ketamine
Retreat in beautiful Foliage covered Donaldson, Indiana. So more details
(01:32):
to come there, but so I just figured it'd be
fun to have a good chat with Julie. It's always
fun to have a good chat with Julie. Love talking
to her about I figured i'd go ahead and record
this one and share with you.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
So enjoy.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Right, Julie, thank you so much for taking the time
to spend some time with me on the podcast. So
excited to talk about even more. Talk about kenemine. What
let's just start at the beginning. What How long have
you been doing ketemine treatment? What got you involved with it?
Speaker 3 (02:08):
We opened our clinic here in South Bend, Indiana Kedemene's
whole October of twenty twenty three, and that time was probably,
if I backtrack it, probably a year and a half
before that was when I really got the bug to
open up the clinic. And I think I got it,
you know, from just hearing some people's stories about struggling
(02:31):
with various medications without any progress, and actually seeing patients
that I take care of in the indthesual world on
multiple multiple medications. When you'd ask them if they felt better,
they really didn't. So, you know, ketymine has been around
for so long. I've used it in the operating room
and things like that, and they really started within the
(02:52):
last ten years or so looking into the antidepressant effects
of it. So that was when I thought, well about
I try it? Why not? What do I got to lose? Right? Only?
I only lose if I don't try. That was my
thought was. So I opened up the clinic here in
South Bend and yeah, we've had just so many rewarding
(03:13):
stories and on a success.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
I love. I've been part of some of those stories.
I've you know, shared with other therapists some of those stories.
It's been so fun to hear some of them. But
I'm curious. I recall one of my first clients engaging
in clinical trials, right, she you know, had to go
all the way out.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
To Kansas and all this.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
But because of your experience in your day job, you
were familiar with ketymine already because we've been using it
as an anna's not anesthetic anestes.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
Yeah, anesthetic huh.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Yep, yeah for what twenty thirty years now?
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Oh gosh, I mean the drug's been around for fifty
plus yeah plus?
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Okay, okay, So yeah, it was just the depressant of
the antidepressant effects. We started studying in the early two thousands.
How did you kind of make the leap from okay
ketamine as anesthetic to ketymine as.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Mental health treatment, just from.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Kind of researching it myself, you know, kind of diving
in seeing, yeah, googling, like patients who are treatment resistant
you know, what can they do?
Speaker 1 (04:29):
Right? That was that was kind of the big deal.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Is the TRD the treatment resistant depress Gosh yah?
Speaker 3 (04:34):
I mean, like they say, after trying the second antidepressant,
your chance of the chance of success with a third
is like solo ten, ten, fifteen percent. But patients are
on multitude of medicines and you're just really not seeing
the the good benefits from it.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
So yeah, and from your perspective.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
Medicines, Yeah, if the medicines work, why aren't the medicines working?
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Right? That's what I was going to ask.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Why do you know, with your medical background, why do
you think that is what is? First of all, I
agree with you. So many clients come in, you know,
on their third, fourth, fifth antidepressant, and we know the
success rates just go down, or the ones that have
been on the same one for fifteen years, and we
don't even know if they're clinically effective anymore. Why do
(05:21):
you think we have such an issues with medication as
far as it not working well, as far as so
many people on it in.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
It not working.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
No, I don't you know. I always kind of wanted to.
I was starting to think too, since we're getting so
many younger patients. When I say younger, not even twenty.
The list of medicines that they've tried is so long.
You know, have we started to medicate children too young
and then there's not a good coping skills to move
(05:54):
them forward? You know, there's a lot more kids on
even add medicines. I mean, is that official?
Speaker 2 (06:01):
You know?
Speaker 3 (06:02):
There's a great psychiatrist out of California that's actually been
doing I am ketd of mean since two thousand in
his office and he said, certainly there are children that
need that require medication, but his thought is that these
kids' brains now are developing with the medicine in it. Yeah,
(06:23):
and could that be see? Yeah, what are we seeing
results wise?
Speaker 2 (06:28):
You know?
Speaker 3 (06:28):
And our society is so geared towards instant gratification.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Too, right, So we've many people have heard me talk
about that idea that you know, starting kids out too
early rather than just letting him mature in or out
of whatever you're experiencing right sometimes, especially with you know,
young men, little boys. Our education system isn't always meant
for fidgety little gentlemen to sit, you know, and young
(06:58):
ladies as well, right, you know, sid, stay, raise your hand,
be quiet, and all that kind of stuff doesn't quite
work as well anymore these days. And then when we
see them start to fidget right away that you know, well,
let's get them medicated. And what does that do over
the course of ten or twenty years. Yeah, So you
(07:18):
are are so in touch right with with ketamine research,
and I know you go to t Keemy conferences and
you know you've been very involved.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
What what are you seeing or hearing? What are what
are some.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Of the becoming things with ketamine or what are you
hearing in your conferences and the work you do?
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Well, what I'm hearing? I mean, first of all, there's
the excitements there, and I think that I think we're
kind of almost at the tip of the iceberg, so
to speak. I think we've had these discussions before, just
the two of us, right, I mean, so many more
things are coming out, you know, or really you know, dementia,
early Alzheimer's. You forwarded that to me about that all scrosis.
(08:02):
I think I told you I did a patient who
had had long COVID. She had great results. So I
think that we are now the World Health Organization has
classified kenemine as an essential drug, so it's not something
that I think is going to go way. I think
we're just going to keep We're just going to continue
to see all of these very positive effects of ketamine
(08:23):
moving forward. You know, kind of started off right with
treatment resistant depression anxiety PEST, but now it's it's really
just kind of opened up a lot more experiences.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Yeah, it's kind of funny.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
That's what we're That's what we're always chasing, right, how
do we do better with depression, anxiety and PTSD. Those
are always the new medications, the new, the new, the
new treatment modalities E M, d R, things like that.
But you're right, we are seeing so much and in
some of our stories with dementia. I had a story
from my practical experience for somebody with chronic pain woke
up the next day pain free and was just an
(09:00):
amazed by that. What is it about ketamine?
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Why?
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Well, I mean we've only studied it as an anesthetic
and now in the past twenty years we've started to
recognize its antidepressant effects. But maybe if you can, right,
since you are so more knowledgeable about the science, what
is it about the science of ketamine that it has
all of these powerful positive effects.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
Well, a ketamine itself causing you know, an increase in
neuroplasticity in the brain, the brain drive neurotropic factor that
comes into place.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
It's just like kind of like I haven't hooldoge believe
I haven't used that phrase before.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
I haven't used that phrase before. What was that brain right?
Speaker 3 (09:42):
Neurotropic factor BDNF. It releases DDNF. So that's what causes
dan the neuroplasticity.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
And see you have not had had that in training.
It that's the difference between therapist training and medical ture.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
D d n F.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Tell me again, brain direct.
Speaker 3 (10:00):
Bribe neurotropic factor. So, like we've talked about this too,
probably just with not using that terminology, the you know,
the neuronal growth in the brain mm hmm, like budding
le butting leaves on a tree. You know, after a while,
some of these chronic stress situations, there's just some synapses
that have kind of died off. And also then the
(10:23):
kennamine blocks that n MDA receptor, so it releases glutamate,
which is a neurotransmitter you're never gonna get in an
oral medication. Why is that all of these combined, because
it's just the glutamate is not like the neurotransmitter that
you can take orally that that's that comes from the
blockade of the receptor and your brain that will release
(10:45):
that like addicts too, you know, with the addicts with
the synaptic defects. You know, because nobody really wants to
wake up in the morning and say, boy, I really
want to be an addict again today. You brain changes
over time.
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Yeah, And that is one thing we talk about a lot,
is the idea that when you engage in repetitive behavior
like addiction or or you know, let's make it even simpler,
like negative self talk that leads to depression, when you
engage in the same behavior over and over, you grow, true,
your brain grows in that direction, and so you develop
(11:27):
these neural pathways that then make it easier to repeat
that behavior. And so then if we are growing neurons
like literally you and I have talked about the beautiful
pictures of like neurons budding, new new dendrites, new tentacles.
We're doing that to the entire brain and so making
(11:47):
it easier to change those neural pathways.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
M okay, if the work from the patient needs to
yeh needs to needs to come into play too.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
What does that mean the work from the patient.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
Well, I think that patients need to understand that ketamine
isn't a pure it's part of a treatment plan. It's
part of your treatment. So we're just being encouraged all
the patients to stay in therapy or if you're not
in therapy, to get into some sort of talk therapy
or even an integration group something, Yeah, to really help
with that, because we don't want patients to feel like
(12:24):
this is the this is the one and done. I'm
going to be I'm cured. You know, there's still a process.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Going back to what you said, we do live in
a time and a culture and a society that wants
the quick fix. And you know that's how we came
to you know, throwing ssries and anti antidepressants, benzo diazepines,
anti anxiety, throwing those around so much and now we're
seeing some potential negative effects. Right, we don't want the
ketamine is not like you said, want and done. But
(12:57):
I tell you what, after you do it, you sure
feel good. It can kind of lead to that idea
of well I'm cured, but no, afterwards, that's when you
do the integration. That's when you do the therapy and
then you know a little bit of maintenance. Now your
recommendation is see your protocol, you do six sessions over
two or three weeks, right.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
Right, So we follow the We follow really the most
current research showing six treatments within a three week period
of time. That's our basis. We have patients who, you know,
they kind of get to the fifth or six and
they're like, yeah, not quite there. So we have done
patients on what we call an induction series, so kind
of that kind of analogy of the stack treatments. We
(13:40):
have done people eight treatments in four weeks. We've had
good results from that too, you know, because like we've
talked Dan, I mean, these patients didn't just it come
to pressed last week. I mean these are patients who
have this is a complex problem here. This has been
ten fifteen years in therapy, and so we're not going
(14:00):
to cure it all. You know, Sometimes patients take are
slower to respond, So you know.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
That's such a good point. By the time they reach
your offices, it may have been ten, fifteen, twenty or
even more years of dealing with it, dealing with different
medications before they before they give this a try. And
that's interesting because that is now what you do strictly
IV in your office, right. Yeah, and so for me
(14:31):
with lozenges that is the recommended course of treatment is eight.
So it's interesting if it's comparable with the different research
is versus IV, I AM and then oral. So maybe
what's this will be fun? I don't think we've ever
talked about this. We've talked about so many, so many stories.
(14:54):
What is your favorite success story? Are a couple of
your favorite success stories?
Speaker 3 (15:00):
Oh boy, huh? Well, I think the one that was
that really stands out in my mind is a woman
who came into us, and I believe it was it
was before Christmas time, and she had a long history
of trauma and suicidal behavior addiction, and she actually got
(15:24):
to infusion number five and she just said, you know,
this isn't working. I said, well, that's you know, that's fine,
and need you're not mandated to come back for your six.
If you don't think it's working, you know, how about
we just you know, to take a break and we
can resume some other time. So I hadn't heard from her,
and I touched base with her therapist, and then her
(15:46):
therapist emailed me on the same day that the patient
called the office, and honestly, she didn't even she didn't
even sound like the same woman. She said that the
effects of it were probably a couple of weeks after
she finished up, but she had a complete enlightenment on
life supposed spiritual, and she had dealt with the addiction
(16:11):
and that was gone. The suicidal thoughts were gone. So
when she came back in for a booster, we honestly
almost didn't even recognize her. She just came bounding in.
She was dressed, nice hair done. Yeah, it was That
was very, very rewarding because we've had a lot. But
(16:34):
another one was somebody really struggling with PTSD from the past,
knowing that things have happened, but weren't able to totally
put it into play, And the ketamine really opened it
up to not totally reliving it. Because that is what
I tell patients too. You know, sometimes things that you
walked away might come up, but that's your psyche saying
(16:57):
it's a safe, safe time for it to come up.
But he was really able to deal with it and
cope with it a lot better because he, you know,
he felt like it was impeding him from leading a positive,
productive life. So the ketemine really helped open that up.
Because like we've talked about that too, like patients are
in therapy for ten fifteen years, like what are you
(17:20):
talking about for them? But the kenemine finally opens it
up enough to okay, this is what it is, let's
deal with it and most forward from here.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Well, and I think it's that combination right of the ketamine,
and you know, yeah, if you're in therapy for ten
or fifteen years, you probably should be finding it a
new therapist. Unless now I do have clients that come
back occasionally after ten or fifteen years, but you know,
it's not it's not like I'm seeing them weekly or twice.
You know, maybe it's a six month or a year
(17:50):
long break. But that idea that you have the kedemy
that kind of opens your brain up to these ideas,
opens your memory up to it. But then also you
have a therapist that you've been working with that you
can then uncork these things and talk about them and
talk through them in a safe environment in a safe way.
(18:11):
That's a lot of what we do for PTSD treatment
is is go through it, but in a safe way,
in a safe setting, in a safe environment, and the
combination of ketamine and good therapy certainly does that. I
wanted that first story he told. Did I happen to
get an email from that therapist as well?
Speaker 3 (18:30):
M h yeah, he said, what did he what did
he say? Like in thirty years, he's never seen something
like this.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
Never seen anything like that, Like, yeah, I mean the client, yeah,
walked into his office, Like I didn't even.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
Her no when she called in. I mean, me and
my nurse were literally on the phone and nurse like,
that's not that's actually her. IM like, yeah, that's her.
I her voice was different. She was yeah, engaged, she
was happy, she was It was incredible.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
I'll never forget And I've told this story so many times,
dozens of times by now and hopefully by the end
of my career, hundreds of times, because this is my favorite,
one of my favorite stories, walking into your office that
one of the first clients I sent you on a
Tuesday or Wednesday in my office and just in bad Shait.
I could see it on his face. I could just
(19:23):
feel it in his presence, and he said, you know,
I don't know what to do. I said, I want
you to call Julie. I want you to get set
up with this treatment and we're going to see if
this helps you. And he said all right, and he
got an appointment with you the next week. I was
going to meet him up there, and then he called
me or texted me later that day. He said, man,
I don't dann, I don't think I want to make it.
He was so profoundly suicidal and just wanted to take
(19:46):
his own life. I said, call Julie if you can
get up there, and you got him in the next day.
I couldn't make it.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
You got him in.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
And then when I came back to meet him the
following tuesday, I'm coming in, he had already been there
and was getting and I just heard giggling. I heard
him chatting with your nurse in such a positive way,
like surely that is.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Not my client.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
I just said here last week, and I walk in
and he just looked totally different after treatment. It sold me,
right there and the continued work we've been able to
do together and the people we've been on the help
has been amazing.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
What about any any situation?
Speaker 2 (20:28):
What are maybe some story non I don't know if
you call them non success stories, there are stories that
ongoing or maybe it didn't work so well, you know, I.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
Think I think of the patients who have kind of
didn't really work that well, and then looking back on
fw of them, I started to think that maybe they
just didn't have met as many realistic expectations. Maybe their
expectations were too high because like their family members would say,
(21:00):
oh yeah, I notice a difference, but they know they don't.
So those are the ones that I think are kind
of in that gray area.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Yeah, and I think you and I have talked as well.
One of the concerns always is a person's environment. They
do ketymine treatment with you, they do therapy with me
or another therapist, but we haven't quite involved their environment,
their family system, whatever it is, and they go back
into very similar stressful situations. Well, yeah, nothing's going to
(21:32):
work at that point.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
Yeah, because there wasn't actually an interesting discussion at one
of our conferences about the support person and you know,
the support person. Right, They're used to somebody depressed, depressed, depressed, depressed,
and all of a sudden, now they have all this
life and they're happy. There's not always going to be
(21:59):
like a great connection. There can be some animosity from this,
you know, it just within the situation because you're used
to being a caregiver. So I thought that was like
very interesting because I think about it. I mean, somebody
support people could be like, Okay, well, why now are
you happy? Why couldn't you been happy before?
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Yeah? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (22:23):
Years?
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Yeah, you know that's interesting. That is right out of
the addictions model, right. The codependent enabler lives with the
addiction for so they become used to it and in
some unhealthy ways support it. And then the attict gets
healthy and the other person's like why now, why are
you better? What am I supposed to do?
Speaker 3 (22:45):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (22:46):
Oh that's interesting. Mm.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
Even like with some of the couple's research with PTSD
that's coming home spouse basically as PTSD secondary.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Yeah, so I was just intellucture last week actually talking
about m d m A. The research was MDMA for
couples where one has PTSD but they both received the
treatment because as the partner of somebody with PTSD.
Speaker 1 (23:14):
Well, you're kind of.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Being traumatized in some ways as well. Yes, yeah, well too,
we've we've we've covered a lot already. Any what what
are the top one or two things you want people
to know about kenemine treatment.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
Well, kendemy treatment is safe when I give it a
very sub anesthetic dose, and you know there's good and
bad to the incident with Matthew Perry, I think it's
it's kind of I think as providers we should take
that almost in a positive way to be able to
educate the public more. His case was an extreme because
(23:55):
when it initially came out in the news, it came
out that he had received to kenemiine IV treatment a
week and a half prior to his death. Well, Ketymine
IV clear's your system in four and a half hours,
So a week and a half later, that's not the
cause of his death. Then it was found to be
in his stomach, and that is I think as time
(24:16):
went on, they were realizing that the amount of ketymine
he was getting. I think he had four injections that
day alone. I am injections. So if you were to
look at somebody's ketymine level. If we were to draw
your blood work after a kenemine IV session here at
the clinic, the ketemine in your system would be between
(24:38):
seventy eight to one to fifty nilograms per m l.
To operate on somebody in the operating room under a
general anesthetic, it would be two thousand nilograms per mL.
Matthew Pirie's was overtreight thousand. So do you see like
the extreme of that. Okay, So I like to educate
(25:00):
people like, this is a sub anesthetic dose. This is
very low dose. Now, are there some patients that we
don't want in here? Absolutely? We don't want somebody actively
actively using a legal substance. We don't want you know,
schizophrenic patients aren't a good candidate. They're in a psychotic
event and a bipolar we have uncontrolled hypertension. I mean,
(25:23):
there's really not a lot of outliers. I mean, kettymine
is so safe. That's why it's been around forever as
an anesthetic. We can give it patients who are very
unstable in the appring room, so it doesn't agreet for
respirations and things.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Yeah, we hear about that all the time, that the
safety profile is just outstanding. And that's I think, that's
what you just said is so helpful. So after a
session with you between seventy and one hundred on the
operating table, you're getting two thousand, and Matthew Perry was
around three thousand. So that's the idea that seventy to
(26:02):
one hundred compared to what you would get if you're
having a knee replacement or something like that, but seventy
two hundred and with such powerful positive effects.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
I mean, look, you and I work in this.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Pretty much every day, and so you know, we are
obviously believers. And sometimes it may I know when I
talk sometimes about it may sound like I'm touting this
miracle drug or something like that. But in some ways,
my goodness, it does. When you think about the idea
that it impacts glutamate and we cannot give you glutamate orally,
and what a powerful neural transmitter it is, and it
(26:41):
just increased neuroplasticity.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
It is some pretty magical stuff.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
Uh huh. It is great. People don't need to be
suffering for so long. Yeah, there's always time to rewrite
your story, so to speak.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Right, you're so right, and that's what I say, like
at the very least, because it is so safe because
you're getting such a low dose, and if you've been
suffering that long, why not?
Speaker 3 (27:09):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (27:11):
Awesome. Well, once again, Julie, thank you so much for
taking time on one of your very rare days off.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
I really appreciate that. I know how rarely you do
take time away. How can people find out more about you.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
And your clinic and what you're doing?
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Sure?
Speaker 3 (27:26):
Well, first, thanks thank you Dan for all of all
you've done. I really appreciate our friendship. And we have
so much more to do, don't we. But it's exciting.
I mean, it's so exciting.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
I think we almost need to do this podcast every
time we have coffee, just so people get to hear
the ideas that we're coming up with, because we come up.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Yes, hey, check out, we're together, Julie. Let's go ahead
and announce we've got a retreat we're planning.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
Yes, we are.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
You know, we're so in the early stages. I forgot
the day September twenty sixth, is that right? Yeah, September twenty.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Six beautiful Donaldson, Indiana. You get to see all the
fall foliage. The room we have opens up to this
beautiful garden in Lake It's going to be you know,
it's the similar to what we did back in January February,
but ideally September twenty six will be far less cold and.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Far more pretty to look at. So very exciting to
find out more about Julie and what she's doing.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
Check out ketamine ishope dot com. And you know, if
you're interested, you can contact either one of us and
we will get you to the right person. So Julie,
I on our friendship as well as you said, I'm
so excited for the work we have ahead of us.
Thank you for taking time and have a lovely Friday
and a beautiful weekend you too, Thanks Dan, And there
(29:00):
you go.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
The lovely Julia.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Addas of Ketamine is Hope Ketamine is Hope dot com.
September twenty six, twenty twenty five, we'll be hosting a
one day Ketamine retreat and lovely Donaldson, Indiana. You can
find out more at Danielafrans dot com. That's d A
(29:22):
n I E L A f R A n z
dot com, or you can connect with me on the socials.
Primarily these days, I'm using LinkedIn, a little bit of
Instagram and some Facebook.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
I gotta get better at that.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Maybe one of these days, I know Julie's talking about
a social media market or.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Maybe I'll do that too.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
But until then, you know, check back on the website.
I know you can subscribe to the daniel A. Frans
Monday Morning Mental Health and Meaning Update. So hey, as always,
thank you for this opportunity to bring some meaning, purpose
and resilience to your day.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
Take care, S.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
S S S S S
Popular Podcasts
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com