February 10, 2025 • 38 mins
In this engaging conversation, Dr. Dan and Dr. Baruch Halevi explore the transformative journey of men in the second half of life through the lens of the Man Uprising initiative. They discuss the importance of peer groups, the quest for purpose, and the need for emotional intimacy among men. The dialogue emphasizes the significance of accountability, mentorship, and the challenges men face as they navigate midlife questions. Through shared experiences and insights, they highlight the power of community in fostering personal growth and understanding.
Takeaways
Takeaways
- The Man Uprising initiative focuses on helping men find their purpose in the second half of life.
- Peer groups provide a structured environment for men to explore their emotions and accountability.
- Midlife is a critical time for men to reassess their goals and values.
- Emotional intimacy is essential for men's mental health and well-being.
- Men often struggle with vulnerability and need support to navigate their feelings.
- The importance of mentorship and community in personal growth cannot be overstated.
- Anger often masks deeper emotions that need to be addressed.
- Men need to move beyond traditional male bonding activities to foster real connections.
- The second half of life offers an opportunity for self-transcendence and deeper meaning.
- Creating a brave space allows men to be honest and accountable to each other.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Hello, and welcome to the Meeting Project podcast. I'm your host,
doctor daniel A Franz. As always, thank you for this
opportunity to share some meaning, purpose and resilience with you
and bring it to your day. What an awesome day
it is. What an honor to finally pin down my
good friend, former podcast host and business partner, and so
(00:41):
many other endeavors, the good Rabbi himself, doctor baruk Ha Levy.
As you know, he does not go by Rabbi be anymore,
but you know I still get to call him that.
So B is on a new projects, which means I'm
kind of hanging out and doing some different things with
him while I'm working on my projects. You know, hardy
On is keeping me busy, you know, building the Meaning
(01:04):
Project community. And of course I now have a ketamine
assisted therapy in my office. Just hosted our first retreat
a little over a week ago. I was truly amazing.
You know, I should probably bring on some of the
individuals that went to that retreat to share that with you,
But I know they loved talking about it. They wanted
(01:25):
to talk about it even more. We actually had to
end the day, but yeah, they found it quite enjoyable, meaningful,
et cetera.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
But I digress.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
I got to chat with Bee about his projects, about
bringing on his son, the mister Yahuda Halevi, into his work,
and what they've got going on, some of the projects
he and.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
I have coming up.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
So look, you know, if you've been here before, me
and I just have a good time talking about saving
the world and helping people out. So here's my conversation
with my good friend b.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Oh. My goodness, worlds have collided. My audience is so excited,
hopefully yours is to once again the return of the great, amazing,
spectacular the Wizard himself, my good friend, doctor Baruch Lev
b I miss you. No, I don't I see so
much these days. We just don't do this very much anymore.
(02:40):
That's so true. But I can't get enough of you.
I missed my good friend, doctor Dee, and I'm excited
to be on your podcast. I'm excited to have you,
rumor has it. I don't know if I hit you
up for your email or text or smoke signal today,
but good chance I might be heading out there here soon.
We'll see how that goes. You and I will talk
about that. But in the Meanwhile, you've been a busy man.
(03:03):
You want to I want my aunt ys to know
more about what you're doing. And they know all about
what I'm doing, But let's talk about what you're doing.
Man Uprising and the oldest Hellevy boy kind of coming
into his own. That's beautiful to watch.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Yeah, well, it's not what I'm doing, it's what we're doing,
because I'm just continuing Victor Frankel meaning Academy message. You know,
the forum has changed, the mission and the message have not.
And the form for me now is taking a couple
different things, not the least of which is called Man Uprising.
It is for men rising up in the second.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Half of life, which definitely is you, Dan and oh man,
you hurt me already.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
I'm the running man and probably a lot of your listeners.
Because Victor Frankel, as we all know well, centered his philosophy,
his psychology around I think one word why, what's your Why?
What's your purpose? And for men in the second half
(04:06):
of life, it is either a crisis or a continuation
or an opportunity to look at this why. A lot
of guys just keep on their first half of life
their purpose and they just keep doing it. In the
second half of life, some guys go through a crisis,
don't know who they are, what they're doing, and the
other guys say, I want to rise up and use
this as an opportunity to reimagine myself in this next
(04:30):
phase of my life. And so creating a community of
guys to come together to discover their why, articulate their why,
live their why, and specifically to do that through peer groups.
So groups of nine men committed to each other and exploring,
you know, all kinds of aspects of their lives, but
not the least the wishes their why.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Yeah, it's been beautiful so far. I'll never forget back
to that cold November week when I was in Boulder
for practicum. You and your lovely wife had Michelle and
I over for an evening, and we got up nice
and early and took the pup for a walk, and
you said, hey, man, I got this thing going on.
And I said, of course you do, be you always
(05:12):
got a thing going on. He said, no, no, no,
this is a chance for you and I not to
do the work, but to engage in the experience, to
simply be brothers among other men searching for our y,
and that was the easiest yes I think I've ever
shared with you. And you've had a lot of amazing
(05:33):
ideas and some less amazing what you know, full of ideas, right,
but this one was an easy yes, and I jumped
on board and we had our first peer group meeting
just a few weeks ago. And for those of you listening,
a peer group meeting is four hours in a row
in one day, in the middle of it, in the
(05:55):
middle of a day, right like really like you have
to well for you, in the middle of the day.
For me, it was three pm to seven pm, so
it kept off my day really nicely. But it was beautiful.
You would think four hours takes time. It it flew
and I know I left wanting more, and I know
a lot of the gentlemen they're wanted more. Do you
want to take talk a little bit because there's a
(06:16):
difference between Man Uprising and the Man Uprising peer groups.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
Correct, No, Man Uprising is a organization that I started
with two other guys, great guys. They came from the
EO YPO Universe EOS the Entrepreneurs Organization ypo's Young President's Organization.
Those are entrepreneurial business network, you know, things, and they
(06:42):
do over there what's called a forum, and a forum
is a I think it's four hours and it's a
very structured peer group. So for them it's revolves around,
you know, entrepreneurial business type stuff. They love forum experience.
They've just sort of aged out there in their fifties
(07:04):
now and they're not interested in business. They wanted something more. Well,
when I met them a couple of years ago, I
was I am a content creator and I have a
lot of content to share with the world, and I
was looking for a platform to do that. And it
was sort of remember back in the day, Dan of
the peanut butter and chocolate commercial, you dipped your peanut
(07:26):
butter and my chocolate kind of thing, right, And it
was this, Yeah, it was this perfect symbiotic relationship. Their context,
my content bring it together. So infusing those four hours
of a very structured experience, it's not like we just
show up and hey, what do we do? You know,
there's fifteen steps in this peer group process. You go
(07:49):
through each one methodically, and inside of there we drip
this content of meaning and purpose and which your why.
And so that's me an uprising is to bring together.
Peer groups, create peer groups, bring men together. And we've
now just launched our fifth peer group. We're doing it
here in Denver. But as you know, and you're part of,
we launched our first virtual group that.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
You're a part of. Got some great men in the
virtual peer group. You know. Obviously, Sad, I can't be
part of a live peer with you out there in Denver,
but I know even in our virtual group, we plan
on getting together at least once throughout our year together.
And the Man Uprising platform solid, of course it is.
(08:33):
I mean, you've got so much content, a lot of
it with some of the stuff we worked on in
the past for the Meaning Academy, but now not necessarily,
you know, refocus, refocus towards not just everybody and not
just towards meaning, purpose and resilience, but specifically your message.
Your your goal is to bring this to men of
a certain age.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
Okay, i'd say north to forty. That's sort of defined
by Sigmund Not so right now, Carl, you who says
that you know, the forty is sort of a demarcation,
and I think we intuite that as a society.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
There's jokes about.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
Forty, but north of forty. You know, most of the
guys are forty five to sixty five. But that's a
bell curve and there for a reason, because again they're
at this crossroads. You know, Yilden talks about the morning
of life in the afternoon of life, and they're just
two different stages. And as he says in a famous quote,
(09:27):
they have you know, I'm paraphrasing, they have different sets
of goals and rules, and what works in the morning
not only doesn't work in the afternoon but can really
fail us. And so looking at the afternoon again, the
second half of life as what are the goals, what
are the rules? What are the ways I want to
and need to show up? How's the game changed? Do
(09:49):
I want to keep playing the same game? And so
having a community of frankly brothers to support you and
asking and answering those those questions we can't answer for
each other, but I can stand by and support you
and ask you questions and help you find your way
by you know, just showing up and being in a
(10:09):
committed group. That's what we do.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
I love that question, do I want to continue to
play the same game? It reminds me of a statement
and one of my last training experiences last practicum was
one of the participants, through a weekend of work, came
to the idea that, man, I can do hard things,
but do I want to? Right? And I think so
often we were like, yeah, I know I could do
(10:35):
hard things and I should push through and do that.
But at some point it's like, I can do hard things,
do I want to do I need to? Should I
keep going? Or what does the next phase of life
old for me? And that's what I love about so far.
The one peer group that we've had has been a
great discussion about well, what is that, why and how
do you continue to live it and move forward?
Speaker 3 (10:54):
Man, it's built on It's built on Frankels. You know
famous statement that this is the last of human freedoms
to choose one's attitude and any given circumstance, to choose
one's own way. And you get to this point midlife
usually where you start to ask why am I fill
in the blank doing this job, married to this person,
(11:16):
living this particular way. Whatever your thing is, It doesn't
mean you don't continue down the path. But I do
believe second half of life is an opportunity to ask
the question why am I and do I choose to
and make the choice. I think that's a really strong point.
Too often, I think you know, in the work you
and I do, we find men asking why and coming
(11:40):
quickly to the answer how the hell do I get
out of it?
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Instead of why? And what should I do to continue
to strengthen it? Whether it's the work that you're doing
or the marriage that you're in. We see that. I
see that crumble too often under that question without the
accountability of others and the fortitude to say, hey, I'm
here for a reason. I've been here for twenty or
(12:05):
thirty years at this point, there's a reason that I
should continue to work at it because you know, the
fruits are still yet to come.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
And part of what a peer group can provide is
a I don't like the I hate the term safe space.
It's been sort of ruined for me, but so really
why it's a brave space, and it's an accountable space
where I'll say the thing that I'm looking at, reevaluating,
and I have eight other brothers to really hold me
(12:36):
accountable to the truth, because so often we can bs ourselves.
Notice I said bs, because I know you don't like
this work this is meant for children, and they get
to really ask me the tough questions that I might
not ask myself because we tend to rationalize, you know,
we come up with the answer, and then we back
(12:56):
into it with, you know, all the reasons why this
is the right answer. A couple times in my peer
group because I'm in another one here in Denver, and
they'll really hold me accountable to hey, b is that true?
Because I've heard you say before this and it's just
it's a mature process and it's also next level for
guys to share with other men these things that make
(13:19):
us feel vulnerable and exposed and to be able to
receive the feedback, it's just amazing.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Well, I know I've shared this before with you and
with the audience in general. It's difficult for a therapist
to find a therapist, especially when you are of a
particular age, and it puts some years in a lot
of young therapists out there, and that's great, and I've
mentored some of them, but it's hard to go back
and receive mentorship or even therapeutic guidance from somebody you've
already taught or mentored. And I know, for me, that's
(13:48):
certainly what this provides is that mentorship, that accountability. I
do want to point out, I thank you. It got
a little last peer first peer group, last peer group.
It got a little too heavy into the uh well,
uh well that's right because I didn't change my signature.
(14:09):
I couldn't. I was too lazy to change my signature,
so it still said doctor Dan. And so all the
questions were, what do you think, doctor Dan? And before
I could even stand up for myself and then ask
for some accountability, thank you, my brother, you stepped in
and said, no, no, Dan is just here to be Dan.
I was like, yes, that's what I need for four
hours once a month to meet. It's just to be me.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
I think, I said, Dan's just another schmuck like the
rest of us. But yeah, you did play some good
Yiddish into that thank you. Yeah that's very true. You know,
like that's we all at some point have to take
off the card again.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Not today, man, that's award just for you, brother. You
know I was here for you. But this is the danger.
Like when I was a rabbi, this was even more
of a danger to start believing your own bs, to
start believing you're the mast, you're the title, you're everything
you say up there on the be on the stage
and the pulpit, and you lose yourself. I see so
many clergy lose themselves. I think these so many therapists
(15:07):
lose themselves because they start creating an echo chamber and
budget yes man, and you start believing your own bs.
That is the pathway to hell. Yeah, and that's just
not rabbis or pastors or therapists. That's us dudes. Right again,
At a certain age we start to we've cultivated friendships,
but we've also sometimes cultivated echo chambers and yes people
(15:30):
around us. You know, if we run a business, or
we operate a business, or we're at a certain point
in a business, you put people around me and say, oh, sure,
whatever you want and it's good, it's healthy on flipt
according to either the MBTI or the enneagram that like,
we need that conflict. We need somebody to say, as
you pointed out, hold up, man, you sure about that?
Because you know last time you said something different, and
(15:53):
now you're saying this, who are you and who do
you want to be? In? What direction do you go? Well?
Speaker 3 (15:57):
I know this isn't necessarily a Franco conver But it's
new on dynamics, right. It's scessary tension where growth, where
meaning is discovered.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
We had that.
Speaker 3 (16:10):
And by the way, you know, the good peer group
is that sort of dance between you know. I was
told my job becoming a rabbi is to comfort the
afflicted and afflict the comfortable, and it's that healthy tension
of both nurturing and challenge in those spaces.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
I gotta tell you what I'm I'm having such a
delightful time assuming that I am peering into your past
life with a Netflix show. Nobody wants this. I refuse it,
Oh brother, young rabbi and love arding all of that.
You know, who am I and who should I be?
(16:49):
I'm like, that's that's just a young bee with far
more hair. You know, I had far more hair. I
can't watch it PTSD, I just I can't do it. Heither,
it's true. I hear that's true. Yes, Ma, So man uprising,
go out there, men, especially men of a certain age.
(17:11):
Now there is a younger men's component, because we know
some young men out there. In my experience, a good
percentage of young men are out there struggling. Right, You'll
still post COVID. But I think in the current atmosphere
in the world, as doctor Frankel told us fifty or
sixty years ago, traditions and norms are breaking down. And
(17:33):
I think we've only seen that more in the past
ten or twenty years, and that's leaving a lot of
young men questioning their roles in the world, where they go,
what they do, and how to get there. What what
do you? I know what you're offering there, and I
love watching. If I'll let you brag on a little
bit what's going on there, well, I would.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
Start with man uprising the afternoon of life. If we
can look statistically, if you want your kid to not smoke,
don't smoke. If you want your kid to go to college,
go to college. If you want your kid to figure
out how to navigate this world, figure out how to
navigate this world. So I think one of the things
we're offering what we call the morning of life guys, right,
(18:14):
the first half of life guys, whatever you want to
frame it, twenty thirty something, is by helping their dads
or the men who are you know this further down
the road to help them.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Figure it out.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
And so that to me is a gift and a
way to help the next generation. That said you know
where you're going is more explicitly. We haven't rolled it
out yet, but we do want to offer them the
morning of life version of what we're doing for the
afternoon of life guys. And so my son Yehuda, who's
graduating UC Boulder, is really focused on this stuff that
(18:55):
I'm you know, the content that I've been creating. He's
very interested in Victor Frankel, He's interested in the Enneagram
and a lot of other things. And he's also in
that age of life that he can address his peers.
I can't run a peer group for twenty somethings because
I'm not there peer, but he is in that demographic
and we're exploring opportunities for them.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Well. And I know I got to reside in young
Yehudah's room for an evening, so I appreciate that, but
I feel I owe him, So you know, you give
him my information and I will bring him over to
the dark side of the MBT I and you can
leave that niagraam nonsense behind because right I think I
(19:37):
think the young twenties need, they need to understand themselves
in multiple ways, So the aneagram and the NBT I
would be great for them. But I love the idea
first of all, a young man with just a little
bit of your novel, maybe even a little bit more
of your knowledge, helping you know his peers. It's a
beautiful thing his. I believe I've seen him you and
him somewhere in my streams and st somewhere like that.
(20:01):
He's definitely getting the good word out there. So surely
you must be a pretty proud of them.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
Yeah. I mean he's started his podcast called Shells and
Shadows or Shadows and Shells about you know, the sort
of the darker aspects of human nature and how we
shine lighted to it. And so I went on his podcast.
But that's you know, you can find him at Shells
and Shadows or vice versa. And I think he's doing
some good work. And I won't let you get near
(20:27):
him with your apostasy.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Of well be he's you know, if the world works
in mysterious ways, he's already found me, man, he just
befriended me on the socials, So work my dark magics.
He's going to try and convert you back to you
if you haven't done yet. Nobody can't. That was one
of the fun parts about the peer group though, is
(20:51):
again having so many men of different stations in life
recognizing that they could benefit from each other's company, and
some knowing what their numbers were and some not and
looking forward to that journey.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
Well, you know that's I guess related to this for
sure is people have said why not women's groups? And
first of all, I can't have a peer group if
I'm you know, not a peer in that sense. Tier
to me is you're in the same place, same station,
and you can really fully relate. But the other thing
is is women have plenty of outlets. I have seen
(21:27):
this over and over again. Women are more likely to
you know, attend ure or synagogue. They're more likely to
join book clubs or social organizations. They're more likely to
have friends who they confide in or small groups of friends.
You get to the second half of life, and I
hear over and over again when you start stripping away
(21:48):
the externals, you know, the golf buddies, the poker buddies,
all the sort of the business networking things. How many
guys have confidants who they can really truly confide in.
Certainly not more than one or two people on there.
You know, we need we need a community of men,
and at this stage in life, men need it to
(22:09):
be provided toward them.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Agreed. I see it far too often. It's heartbreaking every
time I feel blessed to know you and have this
peer group, you know, my good buddy, the running man
in that peer group that I've cultivated throughout life, the
people I can go to and be like, man, I
really got something going on. I have my own mentors
and and you know people I go to as well.
But in my office I run across this far too often,
and it's heartbreaking. Men of many ages, but especially at
(22:35):
our age, some your age, a little older, struggling right
Like when I asked them, Hey, who do you go to?
I want you to go out Thursday night and just
you know, go relax and have a conversation with with
the with the buddy, and they'll look at me like
I have anybody? Like Literally, I don't have anybody. No
(22:57):
no friends they cultivated from kids, sports, No high school buddies,
college buddies, anything like that. Literally. Part of my work
is like, Okay, let's which one of these groups appeal
to you. Let's go find a group. Unfortunately, too often
many of men's groups. And I think you were the
one that shared this story with me, or maybe I
shared another one. Right, many of these groups are arranged
(23:20):
in traditional male ways. Women have outlets because women drink
tea and knit. Man, I'm gonna get in trouble for
that stakement, O day old. I can't believe that fell
out of my mouth. I'm gonna have to print some retraction.
But no, Historically, right, women met in these circles because
they faced each other and they had eyed eye contact
(23:43):
and made conversations, and they've carried that out through history.
Men would go to a pub or a bar, and
we would sit at a bar and stare at a
screen and talk about something beside each other. And now
it's hard to have that great word you coined in
our peer group, or even prior to it, maybe was
it you or camp that came up with the word instimacy. Damn,
(24:07):
we need that. Men need intimacy. We need instimacy, and
we can't do that facing a screen at a wings joint.
Speaker 3 (24:16):
Let's can we riff on this idea? You brought it up,
so of course we can't. It's it's our wiring. It's
not just you know, people say it's like it's it's society.
It's partially true, but it's also partially wiring. I've been
writing a lot about the male psyche, and I mean,
just think about even before we arrive, you know, think
of the sperms swimming. They're all competing, they're all side
(24:40):
by side with single focus to be the one to
get to the egg, right, and that just starts carrying
through the rest of our life. Of that intensity, that company.
I see that lick on your face, like how did
we go down this?
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Well? I know someone that have not quite evolved past
that stage, but go cut.
Speaker 3 (24:57):
If they're just still sperms.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Just still trying to get to that egg.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
That's the morning of life, right, That's that piss and
vinegar and competition and zero some game get mine, you
don't get yours, or you get yours and I don't
get mine. And then you get to the second half
of life and it's like, why are we swimming? Like
I've already been there, I've already done this. I don't
want to swim anymore. I don't want to be goal focused.
You know, men they hunt facing forward, they play golf
(25:26):
facing forward, and a teacher of mine, Parker Palmer, says,
it's a third thing. We need to place our attention
on a third thing, the golf ball, the cubs, whatever
you want to focus on, because we're not comfortable with
intimacy of just talking about ourselves each other, not having
that third thing. So in a group, we remove the
(25:47):
third thing. We sit in the circle, so to speak,
and that is like a revolution for men.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Yeah, I did that in a I ran a ketamine
assisted psychotherapy group last week and to sit in a
cert I've always loved group. I was trained in group
early on in my career, found how good it was.
And many psychotherapists are fear it right, avoid it because
that's a lot of personalities to deal with. And you know,
(26:18):
I kind of had a baptism of fire and that's
the environment I worked, and I had to and I
had to get used to it. But man, the way
those peer groups are run is beautiful. And every time
I come to a well run group, it is just
you have people that again instimacy, You form bonds over
tough questions, over accountability, over being real and not just
(26:39):
watching the cubs, which is so damn depressing. I don't
know why you'd want to do that anyway, or whatever
sports team it might be, right, Yeah, comeing face to
face and dealing with where you're at in life and
where you want to be and how to get there,
and having other men hold you count to them. It's
truly beautiful.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
And it's amazing our defense mechanisms. You know, especially early
on in the pure group, you'll see it or you've
seen it, and we use humor to deflect, We use sarcasm.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
We use.
Speaker 3 (27:10):
All kinds of defense mechanisms because we're just used to
as guys, even with our buddies all throughout our life.
Like I have buddies from high school, college.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
They don't know me.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
I don't know them because I've never dropped that guard
in that relationship. And and then in the peer group,
it's like we call each other out on it. We
have to drop the armor of the facade because it's
just a way to keep out vulnerability.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Absolutely well. I've called out quite a few men recently
about lack of friendships and needing instimacy. You know who
you are out there listening to this hop on these group.
Oh my goodness, it's so stuck on my computer. I
forget to eat where you can go to it, or
for the.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
Women to send their men, because well, men come back
as better versions of themselves. I've had so many women, wives, daughters, sisters, whatever,
thanked me for the man in their life who's in
a peer group, who's now starting to access that piece
that she's been asking him to access for a very
(28:18):
long time.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
You know, it's funny. The follow up session, the integration
session to that retreat last week, held that Monday, and
you know it was voluntary, but it's healthy, right, you
want to integrate after a psychedelic experience like that. And
we had a good mix at the retreat. You know
who showed up all the women.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
It's the eighty twenty rule. It's amazing.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
And some of the men had good reason, good excuses.
But I did think it was ironic and we did
talk about that somewhat. You know, I joke all the
time I had to go to school for an extra
two years just to understand emotions, right, And that's true.
If I would have gone into counseling, I still would
have gotten ever well and continue that education. But as
men's that's why I have.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
This emotion wheel right in front of me, because I
just need more access to more nuance.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Right. Yeah, it's funny. There's a book somewhere back here
somebody gave me literally twenty five years ago and one
of my first jobs, and this was before self publishing,
but some gentlemen just listed two hundred emotions and described
with them because we need that we're not good at.
It's sad, mad, glad, and maybe angry for men.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
True, and so you start good getting underneath the layers.
You know, for me, anger is my go to is
an anyagrammyate the challenger. It's just I'm comfortable with anger.
And I realize, you know, through my own work through
the men's group, that anger just as a mask for sadness.
And when I can start to get underneath that, and
(29:50):
then I can have guys around me who support and
challenge me and saying, you know you're really angry about
this issue or are you sure it's anger? Do you
want to look at that, underneath that, what's underneath that?
And just to have people who can hold you accountable
to going deeper, transformative.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
I've learned to say in my office, anger is a
cover for an emotion much deeper than that how do
we get to that deeper emotion? And that was great
to pontificate and theorize about of my office, but then,
oh no, I had to start living that at one
point too. And that's hard, right, because men, you know,
we're allowed to be angry, because that's what society teaches us,
that's what pop culture teaches us. When we get beneath that,
(30:31):
the anger dissipate, people like to be around us more,
and you know, we become better men.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
Well, I would argue that it's not yes, it's society,
it's culture, whatever, but it's also our wiring, you know,
it's it's fifty thousand years of survival tactics and men are,
you know, historically more physical. We have to go out
and hunt the wooly mammoth, and so anger is a
(30:58):
bodily experience. I would argue, it's not even an emotion.
I've come to really believe it's masking emotion. The emotion
is underneath it. It's a physicality. It comes from my
body that I got to move into action. And again
it serves the purpose if it's to keep the saber
tooth tiger out of the cave. But now I'm just
(31:18):
carrying so much of that that more often than not,
there's no saber tooth tiger. There's no cave.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
And I'm still in that mode, right, yes, And we
just see everything as a saber tooth tiger, whether it's
our children, or our spouses or partners, or some you know,
or other individual that drives by us at the wrong
speed and turns at the wrong time. Right that anger
comes out. Everything's a saber tooth tiger. And while we
(31:44):
can start to realize not everything's a saber tooth tiger,
life gets a lot better, and it takes other men
to hold you accountable because obviously we haven't been that
great at doing it for well a few decades, maybe
a few thousand years.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
And then you start to feel like, for the first
time in my life, there's a thousand reasons. I think
it's I think it's physiological, biological, I think there's testosterone dropping,
you know, all these reasons that if you have this
new set of rules in the second half of life,
it's beautiful. If you're still trying to live like the
first half of life, it's pathetic, right, because it's a descent.
(32:21):
But now for me, it's an assent. The more hair
I lose, right, the less physicality I can define myself by,
I have to go deeper. That's how I justify being
involved and nobody I truly, I truly believe. Now it's
forced me to stop leaning on this and now I
got to cultivate this my point in my heart for
(32:43):
those listening, and so to me, that's the invitation to
get into something deeper. And I watch these men start
to access their heart, access their feelings open up in
a way that they've never had before.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
It's beautiful. I will know you've gone deep enough when
you put your hand on your heart and there's a
card again underneath it. That is when you have gone
deep in.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
Dude, I'm I can get soft without that soft.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
That's awesome.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
You know.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
It's the first thing you said about, you know, the
begin What works in the beginning of life doesn't work
in the middle. And I'm always reminded of what our
good friend Jordan Peterson says, you never want to be
the thirty year old guy at the frat party, right,
And that's just like I'll never forget him saying that, going,
oh yeah, that just sounds really uncomfortable. Who wants that?
(33:34):
And so to learn those. If you still feel like
you're the thirty year old guy at the frat party
or the fifty year old guy at the frat part
like they want to do something.
Speaker 3 (33:43):
A little different, well you've got to get new rules
new you know, what does it mean to be successful?
Speaker 2 (33:49):
What does it mean?
Speaker 3 (33:51):
This is Victor Frankel I believe of like moving from
self to self transcendence. That's a shift in the afternoon
of life where success to me is all about self
transcendence to whom you know?
Speaker 2 (34:04):
Do I? Who am I serving? Right? What is this for?
Speaker 3 (34:08):
It's got to be something bigger than me. So just
coming up with all these new rules and goals and
ways of being in the world is how you is
how you uh you know, get away from the frat
party as a thirty year old.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Yeah, you can still have fun. That just can't be
at a frat party anymore. Definitely, not, by the way.
I've gone to frat parties and I'm will beyond thirty
because my son's in one. And frankly, if you're still
going to frat parties, you're in hell because these things
are terrible, that bad. Oh that is not like we
remember up all right, brother. Where can people find out
(34:43):
more about man Uprising and join one of these peer groups.
Speaker 3 (34:48):
Man Uprising dot org, man Uprising dot org, or you
can always find me at Defiance Spirit dot org, which
is my sort of go to. It's my uh, it's
my main address. I am either one of those places.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Reach out to me, and I'd love to connect with
you absolutely. Well. Hey man, I'm so glad you came
on today. I know it's trying to get your time
as you're getting all these peer groups going and supporting
my peer group, our peer group, as well as other things.
You know, I appreciate you, and you know I love
spending time with you. I can't wait to get back
out there to Denver and just hang out and see
where things go.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
Thanks for having me back on the show, and let's
do it again, all.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
Right, man? Take care really, thank care.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
What a beautiful, beautiful man. I love that guy, love
spending time with him, love working with him, love the
projects we were shaping together. A good chance I go
out and do some work with him sometime here in
the next couple couple months, it seems like, so to
find out more about that project, and guys, please go
(35:52):
check out man uprising. Look at the different tools he has.
Join a peer group. The peer groups I think less
than one hundred bucks a month something like that. I
paid for the year up front to commit to the
peer groups, but the you know, I was skeptical. I'll
be honest, four hours is a long time, but the
(36:15):
way they run that four hours is so beneficial and
it's like pretty much getting a week of you know,
four hours of therapy all into a week, and it's
better than therapy in some ways. There's accountability, there's the
group sense. It really is beautiful. So I definitely definitely
recommend taking a look and maybe joining in a peer group,
and hopefully I'll see you out there on the man
(36:37):
uprising community platform. So that's man uprising dot org. You
can find me at defiant spirit dot com, and of
course you can find me at Daniel Afrans dot com.
D A n I E L A F R A
n z dot com. Hey, check it out. The new
ketamine assisted therapy dtiales are now up on the website.
(37:03):
Or if you are a subscriber to doctor Dan's Monday
Morning Meaningful, Monday Meaningful Monday Morning Update, and there's a
lot of m's there. If you subscribe to my weekly email,
you'll be seeing that one sheet and all the details
about that, so take a look and if you're interested,
(37:23):
there are monthly education sessions sponsored by my third party provider,
Journey Clinical or as always, you're welcome to connect with
me through the website, through the socials, etc. As always,
thank you for this opportunity to bring a little bit
of meaning, purpose and resilience to your day.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
Take care,
Hello, and welcome to the Meeting Project podcast. I'm your host,
doctor daniel A Franz. As always, thank you for this
opportunity to share some meaning, purpose and resilience with you
and bring it to your day. What an awesome day
it is. What an honor to finally pin down my
good friend, former podcast host and business partner, and so
(00:41):
many other endeavors, the good Rabbi himself, doctor baruk Ha Levy.
As you know, he does not go by Rabbi be anymore,
but you know I still get to call him that.
So B is on a new projects, which means I'm
kind of hanging out and doing some different things with
him while I'm working on my projects. You know, hardy
On is keeping me busy, you know, building the Meaning
(01:04):
Project community. And of course I now have a ketamine
assisted therapy in my office. Just hosted our first retreat
a little over a week ago. I was truly amazing.
You know, I should probably bring on some of the
individuals that went to that retreat to share that with you,
But I know they loved talking about it. They wanted
(01:25):
to talk about it even more. We actually had to
end the day, but yeah, they found it quite enjoyable, meaningful,
et cetera.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
But I digress.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
I got to chat with Bee about his projects, about
bringing on his son, the mister Yahuda Halevi, into his work,
and what they've got going on, some of the projects
he and.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
I have coming up.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
So look, you know, if you've been here before, me
and I just have a good time talking about saving
the world and helping people out. So here's my conversation
with my good friend b.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Oh. My goodness, worlds have collided. My audience is so excited,
hopefully yours is to once again the return of the great, amazing,
spectacular the Wizard himself, my good friend, doctor Baruch Lev
b I miss you. No, I don't I see so
much these days. We just don't do this very much anymore.
(02:40):
That's so true. But I can't get enough of you.
I missed my good friend, doctor Dee, and I'm excited
to be on your podcast. I'm excited to have you,
rumor has it. I don't know if I hit you
up for your email or text or smoke signal today,
but good chance I might be heading out there here soon.
We'll see how that goes. You and I will talk
about that. But in the Meanwhile, you've been a busy man.
(03:03):
You want to I want my aunt ys to know
more about what you're doing. And they know all about
what I'm doing, But let's talk about what you're doing.
Man Uprising and the oldest Hellevy boy kind of coming
into his own. That's beautiful to watch.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Yeah, well, it's not what I'm doing, it's what we're doing,
because I'm just continuing Victor Frankel meaning Academy message. You know,
the forum has changed, the mission and the message have not.
And the form for me now is taking a couple
different things, not the least of which is called Man Uprising.
It is for men rising up in the second.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Half of life, which definitely is you, Dan and oh man,
you hurt me already.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
I'm the running man and probably a lot of your listeners.
Because Victor Frankel, as we all know well, centered his philosophy,
his psychology around I think one word why, what's your Why?
What's your purpose? And for men in the second half
(04:06):
of life, it is either a crisis or a continuation
or an opportunity to look at this why. A lot
of guys just keep on their first half of life
their purpose and they just keep doing it. In the
second half of life, some guys go through a crisis,
don't know who they are, what they're doing, and the
other guys say, I want to rise up and use
this as an opportunity to reimagine myself in this next
(04:30):
phase of my life. And so creating a community of
guys to come together to discover their why, articulate their why,
live their why, and specifically to do that through peer groups.
So groups of nine men committed to each other and exploring,
you know, all kinds of aspects of their lives, but
not the least the wishes their why.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Yeah, it's been beautiful so far. I'll never forget back
to that cold November week when I was in Boulder
for practicum. You and your lovely wife had Michelle and
I over for an evening, and we got up nice
and early and took the pup for a walk, and
you said, hey, man, I got this thing going on.
And I said, of course you do, be you always
(05:12):
got a thing going on. He said, no, no, no,
this is a chance for you and I not to
do the work, but to engage in the experience, to
simply be brothers among other men searching for our y,
and that was the easiest yes I think I've ever
shared with you. And you've had a lot of amazing
(05:33):
ideas and some less amazing what you know, full of ideas, right,
but this one was an easy yes, and I jumped
on board and we had our first peer group meeting
just a few weeks ago. And for those of you listening,
a peer group meeting is four hours in a row
in one day, in the middle of it, in the
(05:55):
middle of a day, right like really like you have
to well for you, in the middle of the day.
For me, it was three pm to seven pm, so
it kept off my day really nicely. But it was beautiful.
You would think four hours takes time. It it flew
and I know I left wanting more, and I know
a lot of the gentlemen they're wanted more. Do you
want to take talk a little bit because there's a
(06:16):
difference between Man Uprising and the Man Uprising peer groups.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
Correct, No, Man Uprising is a organization that I started
with two other guys, great guys. They came from the
EO YPO Universe EOS the Entrepreneurs Organization ypo's Young President's Organization.
Those are entrepreneurial business network, you know, things, and they
(06:42):
do over there what's called a forum, and a forum
is a I think it's four hours and it's a
very structured peer group. So for them it's revolves around,
you know, entrepreneurial business type stuff. They love forum experience.
They've just sort of aged out there in their fifties
(07:04):
now and they're not interested in business. They wanted something more. Well,
when I met them a couple of years ago, I
was I am a content creator and I have a
lot of content to share with the world, and I
was looking for a platform to do that. And it
was sort of remember back in the day, Dan of
the peanut butter and chocolate commercial, you dipped your peanut
(07:26):
butter and my chocolate kind of thing, right, And it
was this, Yeah, it was this perfect symbiotic relationship. Their context,
my content bring it together. So infusing those four hours
of a very structured experience, it's not like we just
show up and hey, what do we do? You know,
there's fifteen steps in this peer group process. You go
(07:49):
through each one methodically, and inside of there we drip
this content of meaning and purpose and which your why.
And so that's me an uprising is to bring together.
Peer groups, create peer groups, bring men together. And we've
now just launched our fifth peer group. We're doing it
here in Denver. But as you know, and you're part of,
we launched our first virtual group that.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
You're a part of. Got some great men in the
virtual peer group. You know. Obviously, Sad, I can't be
part of a live peer with you out there in Denver,
but I know even in our virtual group, we plan
on getting together at least once throughout our year together.
And the Man Uprising platform solid, of course it is.
(08:33):
I mean, you've got so much content, a lot of
it with some of the stuff we worked on in
the past for the Meaning Academy, but now not necessarily,
you know, refocus, refocus towards not just everybody and not
just towards meaning, purpose and resilience, but specifically your message.
Your your goal is to bring this to men of
a certain age.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
Okay, i'd say north to forty. That's sort of defined
by Sigmund Not so right now, Carl, you who says
that you know, the forty is sort of a demarcation,
and I think we intuite that as a society.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
There's jokes about.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
Forty, but north of forty. You know, most of the
guys are forty five to sixty five. But that's a
bell curve and there for a reason, because again they're
at this crossroads. You know, Yilden talks about the morning
of life in the afternoon of life, and they're just
two different stages. And as he says in a famous quote,
(09:27):
they have you know, I'm paraphrasing, they have different sets
of goals and rules, and what works in the morning
not only doesn't work in the afternoon but can really
fail us. And so looking at the afternoon again, the
second half of life as what are the goals, what
are the rules? What are the ways I want to
and need to show up? How's the game changed? Do
(09:49):
I want to keep playing the same game? And so
having a community of frankly brothers to support you and
asking and answering those those questions we can't answer for
each other, but I can stand by and support you
and ask you questions and help you find your way
by you know, just showing up and being in a
(10:09):
committed group. That's what we do.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
I love that question, do I want to continue to
play the same game? It reminds me of a statement
and one of my last training experiences last practicum was
one of the participants, through a weekend of work, came
to the idea that, man, I can do hard things,
but do I want to? Right? And I think so
often we were like, yeah, I know I could do
(10:35):
hard things and I should push through and do that.
But at some point it's like, I can do hard things,
do I want to do I need to? Should I
keep going? Or what does the next phase of life
old for me? And that's what I love about so far.
The one peer group that we've had has been a
great discussion about well, what is that, why and how
do you continue to live it and move forward?
Speaker 3 (10:54):
Man, it's built on It's built on Frankels. You know
famous statement that this is the last of human freedoms
to choose one's attitude and any given circumstance, to choose
one's own way. And you get to this point midlife
usually where you start to ask why am I fill
in the blank doing this job, married to this person,
(11:16):
living this particular way. Whatever your thing is, It doesn't
mean you don't continue down the path. But I do
believe second half of life is an opportunity to ask
the question why am I and do I choose to
and make the choice. I think that's a really strong point.
Too often, I think you know, in the work you
and I do, we find men asking why and coming
(11:40):
quickly to the answer how the hell do I get
out of it?
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Instead of why? And what should I do to continue
to strengthen it? Whether it's the work that you're doing
or the marriage that you're in. We see that. I
see that crumble too often under that question without the
accountability of others and the fortitude to say, hey, I'm
here for a reason. I've been here for twenty or
(12:05):
thirty years at this point, there's a reason that I
should continue to work at it because you know, the
fruits are still yet to come.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
And part of what a peer group can provide is
a I don't like the I hate the term safe space.
It's been sort of ruined for me, but so really
why it's a brave space, and it's an accountable space
where I'll say the thing that I'm looking at, reevaluating,
and I have eight other brothers to really hold me
(12:36):
accountable to the truth, because so often we can bs ourselves.
Notice I said bs, because I know you don't like
this work this is meant for children, and they get
to really ask me the tough questions that I might
not ask myself because we tend to rationalize, you know,
we come up with the answer, and then we back
(12:56):
into it with, you know, all the reasons why this
is the right answer. A couple times in my peer
group because I'm in another one here in Denver, and
they'll really hold me accountable to hey, b is that true?
Because I've heard you say before this and it's just
it's a mature process and it's also next level for
guys to share with other men these things that make
(13:19):
us feel vulnerable and exposed and to be able to
receive the feedback, it's just amazing.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Well, I know I've shared this before with you and
with the audience in general. It's difficult for a therapist
to find a therapist, especially when you are of a
particular age, and it puts some years in a lot
of young therapists out there, and that's great, and I've
mentored some of them, but it's hard to go back
and receive mentorship or even therapeutic guidance from somebody you've
already taught or mentored. And I know, for me, that's
(13:48):
certainly what this provides is that mentorship, that accountability. I
do want to point out, I thank you. It got
a little last peer first peer group, last peer group.
It got a little too heavy into the uh well,
uh well that's right because I didn't change my signature.
(14:09):
I couldn't. I was too lazy to change my signature,
so it still said doctor Dan. And so all the
questions were, what do you think, doctor Dan? And before
I could even stand up for myself and then ask
for some accountability, thank you, my brother, you stepped in
and said, no, no, Dan is just here to be Dan.
I was like, yes, that's what I need for four
hours once a month to meet. It's just to be me.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
I think, I said, Dan's just another schmuck like the
rest of us. But yeah, you did play some good
Yiddish into that thank you. Yeah that's very true. You know,
like that's we all at some point have to take
off the card again.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Not today, man, that's award just for you, brother. You
know I was here for you. But this is the danger.
Like when I was a rabbi, this was even more
of a danger to start believing your own bs, to
start believing you're the mast, you're the title, you're everything
you say up there on the be on the stage
and the pulpit, and you lose yourself. I see so
many clergy lose themselves. I think these so many therapists
(15:07):
lose themselves because they start creating an echo chamber and
budget yes man, and you start believing your own bs.
That is the pathway to hell. Yeah, and that's just
not rabbis or pastors or therapists. That's us dudes. Right again,
At a certain age we start to we've cultivated friendships,
but we've also sometimes cultivated echo chambers and yes people
(15:30):
around us. You know, if we run a business, or
we operate a business, or we're at a certain point
in a business, you put people around me and say, oh, sure,
whatever you want and it's good, it's healthy on flipt
according to either the MBTI or the enneagram that like,
we need that conflict. We need somebody to say, as
you pointed out, hold up, man, you sure about that?
Because you know last time you said something different, and
(15:53):
now you're saying this, who are you and who do
you want to be? In? What direction do you go? Well?
Speaker 3 (15:57):
I know this isn't necessarily a Franco conver But it's
new on dynamics, right. It's scessary tension where growth, where
meaning is discovered.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
We had that.
Speaker 3 (16:10):
And by the way, you know, the good peer group
is that sort of dance between you know. I was
told my job becoming a rabbi is to comfort the
afflicted and afflict the comfortable, and it's that healthy tension
of both nurturing and challenge in those spaces.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
I gotta tell you what I'm I'm having such a
delightful time assuming that I am peering into your past
life with a Netflix show. Nobody wants this. I refuse it,
Oh brother, young rabbi and love arding all of that.
You know, who am I and who should I be?
(16:49):
I'm like, that's that's just a young bee with far
more hair. You know, I had far more hair. I
can't watch it PTSD, I just I can't do it. Heither,
it's true. I hear that's true. Yes, Ma, So man uprising,
go out there, men, especially men of a certain age.
(17:11):
Now there is a younger men's component, because we know
some young men out there. In my experience, a good
percentage of young men are out there struggling. Right, You'll
still post COVID. But I think in the current atmosphere
in the world, as doctor Frankel told us fifty or
sixty years ago, traditions and norms are breaking down. And
(17:33):
I think we've only seen that more in the past
ten or twenty years, and that's leaving a lot of
young men questioning their roles in the world, where they go,
what they do, and how to get there. What what
do you? I know what you're offering there, and I
love watching. If I'll let you brag on a little
bit what's going on there, well, I would.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
Start with man uprising the afternoon of life. If we
can look statistically, if you want your kid to not smoke,
don't smoke. If you want your kid to go to college,
go to college. If you want your kid to figure
out how to navigate this world, figure out how to
navigate this world. So I think one of the things
we're offering what we call the morning of life guys, right,
(18:14):
the first half of life guys, whatever you want to
frame it, twenty thirty something, is by helping their dads
or the men who are you know this further down
the road to help them.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Figure it out.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
And so that to me is a gift and a
way to help the next generation. That said you know
where you're going is more explicitly. We haven't rolled it
out yet, but we do want to offer them the
morning of life version of what we're doing for the
afternoon of life guys. And so my son Yehuda, who's
graduating UC Boulder, is really focused on this stuff that
(18:55):
I'm you know, the content that I've been creating. He's
very interested in Victor Frankel, He's interested in the Enneagram
and a lot of other things. And he's also in
that age of life that he can address his peers.
I can't run a peer group for twenty somethings because
I'm not there peer, but he is in that demographic
and we're exploring opportunities for them.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Well. And I know I got to reside in young
Yehudah's room for an evening, so I appreciate that, but
I feel I owe him, So you know, you give
him my information and I will bring him over to
the dark side of the MBT I and you can
leave that niagraam nonsense behind because right I think I
(19:37):
think the young twenties need, they need to understand themselves
in multiple ways, So the aneagram and the NBT I
would be great for them. But I love the idea
first of all, a young man with just a little
bit of your novel, maybe even a little bit more
of your knowledge, helping you know his peers. It's a
beautiful thing his. I believe I've seen him you and
him somewhere in my streams and st somewhere like that.
(20:01):
He's definitely getting the good word out there. So surely
you must be a pretty proud of them.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
Yeah. I mean he's started his podcast called Shells and
Shadows or Shadows and Shells about you know, the sort
of the darker aspects of human nature and how we
shine lighted to it. And so I went on his podcast.
But that's you know, you can find him at Shells
and Shadows or vice versa. And I think he's doing
some good work. And I won't let you get near
(20:27):
him with your apostasy.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
Of well be he's you know, if the world works
in mysterious ways, he's already found me, man, he just
befriended me on the socials, So work my dark magics.
He's going to try and convert you back to you
if you haven't done yet. Nobody can't. That was one
of the fun parts about the peer group though, is
(20:51):
again having so many men of different stations in life
recognizing that they could benefit from each other's company, and
some knowing what their numbers were and some not and
looking forward to that journey.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
Well, you know that's I guess related to this for
sure is people have said why not women's groups? And
first of all, I can't have a peer group if
I'm you know, not a peer in that sense. Tier
to me is you're in the same place, same station,
and you can really fully relate. But the other thing
is is women have plenty of outlets. I have seen
(21:27):
this over and over again. Women are more likely to
you know, attend ure or synagogue. They're more likely to
join book clubs or social organizations. They're more likely to
have friends who they confide in or small groups of friends.
You get to the second half of life, and I
hear over and over again when you start stripping away
(21:48):
the externals, you know, the golf buddies, the poker buddies,
all the sort of the business networking things. How many
guys have confidants who they can really truly confide in.
Certainly not more than one or two people on there.
You know, we need we need a community of men,
and at this stage in life, men need it to
(22:09):
be provided toward them.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Agreed. I see it far too often. It's heartbreaking every
time I feel blessed to know you and have this
peer group, you know, my good buddy, the running man
in that peer group that I've cultivated throughout life, the
people I can go to and be like, man, I
really got something going on. I have my own mentors
and and you know people I go to as well.
But in my office I run across this far too often,
and it's heartbreaking. Men of many ages, but especially at
(22:35):
our age, some your age, a little older, struggling right
Like when I asked them, Hey, who do you go to?
I want you to go out Thursday night and just
you know, go relax and have a conversation with with
the with the buddy, and they'll look at me like
I have anybody? Like Literally, I don't have anybody. No
(22:57):
no friends they cultivated from kids, sports, No high school buddies,
college buddies, anything like that. Literally. Part of my work
is like, Okay, let's which one of these groups appeal
to you. Let's go find a group. Unfortunately, too often
many of men's groups. And I think you were the
one that shared this story with me, or maybe I
shared another one. Right, many of these groups are arranged
(23:20):
in traditional male ways. Women have outlets because women drink
tea and knit. Man, I'm gonna get in trouble for
that stakement, O day old. I can't believe that fell
out of my mouth. I'm gonna have to print some retraction.
But no, Historically, right, women met in these circles because
they faced each other and they had eyed eye contact
(23:43):
and made conversations, and they've carried that out through history.
Men would go to a pub or a bar, and
we would sit at a bar and stare at a
screen and talk about something beside each other. And now
it's hard to have that great word you coined in
our peer group, or even prior to it, maybe was
it you or camp that came up with the word instimacy. Damn,
(24:07):
we need that. Men need intimacy. We need instimacy, and
we can't do that facing a screen at a wings joint.
Speaker 3 (24:16):
Let's can we riff on this idea? You brought it up,
so of course we can't. It's it's our wiring. It's
not just you know, people say it's like it's it's society.
It's partially true, but it's also partially wiring. I've been
writing a lot about the male psyche, and I mean,
just think about even before we arrive, you know, think
of the sperms swimming. They're all competing, they're all side
(24:40):
by side with single focus to be the one to
get to the egg, right, and that just starts carrying
through the rest of our life. Of that intensity, that company.
I see that lick on your face, like how did
we go down this?
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Well? I know someone that have not quite evolved past
that stage, but go cut.
Speaker 3 (24:57):
If they're just still sperms.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Just still trying to get to that egg.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
That's the morning of life, right, That's that piss and
vinegar and competition and zero some game get mine, you
don't get yours, or you get yours and I don't
get mine. And then you get to the second half
of life and it's like, why are we swimming? Like
I've already been there, I've already done this. I don't
want to swim anymore. I don't want to be goal focused.
You know, men they hunt facing forward, they play golf
(25:26):
facing forward, and a teacher of mine, Parker Palmer, says,
it's a third thing. We need to place our attention
on a third thing, the golf ball, the cubs, whatever
you want to focus on, because we're not comfortable with
intimacy of just talking about ourselves each other, not having
that third thing. So in a group, we remove the
(25:47):
third thing. We sit in the circle, so to speak,
and that is like a revolution for men.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Yeah, I did that in a I ran a ketamine
assisted psychotherapy group last week and to sit in a
cert I've always loved group. I was trained in group
early on in my career, found how good it was.
And many psychotherapists are fear it right, avoid it because
that's a lot of personalities to deal with. And you know,
(26:18):
I kind of had a baptism of fire and that's
the environment I worked, and I had to and I
had to get used to it. But man, the way
those peer groups are run is beautiful. And every time
I come to a well run group, it is just
you have people that again instimacy, You form bonds over
tough questions, over accountability, over being real and not just
(26:39):
watching the cubs, which is so damn depressing. I don't
know why you'd want to do that anyway, or whatever
sports team it might be, right, Yeah, comeing face to
face and dealing with where you're at in life and
where you want to be and how to get there,
and having other men hold you count to them. It's
truly beautiful.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
And it's amazing our defense mechanisms. You know, especially early
on in the pure group, you'll see it or you've
seen it, and we use humor to deflect, We use sarcasm.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
We use.
Speaker 3 (27:10):
All kinds of defense mechanisms because we're just used to
as guys, even with our buddies all throughout our life.
Like I have buddies from high school, college.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
They don't know me.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
I don't know them because I've never dropped that guard
in that relationship. And and then in the peer group,
it's like we call each other out on it. We
have to drop the armor of the facade because it's
just a way to keep out vulnerability.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Absolutely well. I've called out quite a few men recently
about lack of friendships and needing instimacy. You know who
you are out there listening to this hop on these group.
Oh my goodness, it's so stuck on my computer. I
forget to eat where you can go to it, or
for the.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
Women to send their men, because well, men come back
as better versions of themselves. I've had so many women, wives, daughters, sisters, whatever,
thanked me for the man in their life who's in
a peer group, who's now starting to access that piece
that she's been asking him to access for a very
(28:18):
long time.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
You know, it's funny. The follow up session, the integration
session to that retreat last week, held that Monday, and
you know it was voluntary, but it's healthy, right, you
want to integrate after a psychedelic experience like that. And
we had a good mix at the retreat. You know
who showed up all the women.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
It's the eighty twenty rule. It's amazing.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
And some of the men had good reason, good excuses.
But I did think it was ironic and we did
talk about that somewhat. You know, I joke all the
time I had to go to school for an extra
two years just to understand emotions, right, And that's true.
If I would have gone into counseling, I still would
have gotten ever well and continue that education. But as
men's that's why I have.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
This emotion wheel right in front of me, because I
just need more access to more nuance.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Right. Yeah, it's funny. There's a book somewhere back here
somebody gave me literally twenty five years ago and one
of my first jobs, and this was before self publishing,
but some gentlemen just listed two hundred emotions and described
with them because we need that we're not good at.
It's sad, mad, glad, and maybe angry for men.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
True, and so you start good getting underneath the layers.
You know, for me, anger is my go to is
an anyagrammyate the challenger. It's just I'm comfortable with anger.
And I realize, you know, through my own work through
the men's group, that anger just as a mask for sadness.
And when I can start to get underneath that, and
(29:50):
then I can have guys around me who support and
challenge me and saying, you know you're really angry about
this issue or are you sure it's anger? Do you
want to look at that, underneath that, what's underneath that?
And just to have people who can hold you accountable
to going deeper, transformative.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
I've learned to say in my office, anger is a
cover for an emotion much deeper than that how do
we get to that deeper emotion? And that was great
to pontificate and theorize about of my office, but then,
oh no, I had to start living that at one
point too. And that's hard, right, because men, you know,
we're allowed to be angry, because that's what society teaches us,
that's what pop culture teaches us. When we get beneath that,
(30:31):
the anger dissipate, people like to be around us more,
and you know, we become better men.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
Well, I would argue that it's not yes, it's society,
it's culture, whatever, but it's also our wiring, you know,
it's it's fifty thousand years of survival tactics and men are,
you know, historically more physical. We have to go out
and hunt the wooly mammoth, and so anger is a
(30:58):
bodily experience. I would argue, it's not even an emotion.
I've come to really believe it's masking emotion. The emotion
is underneath it. It's a physicality. It comes from my
body that I got to move into action. And again
it serves the purpose if it's to keep the saber
tooth tiger out of the cave. But now I'm just
(31:18):
carrying so much of that that more often than not,
there's no saber tooth tiger. There's no cave.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
And I'm still in that mode, right, yes, And we
just see everything as a saber tooth tiger, whether it's
our children, or our spouses or partners, or some you know,
or other individual that drives by us at the wrong
speed and turns at the wrong time. Right that anger
comes out. Everything's a saber tooth tiger. And while we
(31:44):
can start to realize not everything's a saber tooth tiger,
life gets a lot better, and it takes other men
to hold you accountable because obviously we haven't been that
great at doing it for well a few decades, maybe
a few thousand years.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
And then you start to feel like, for the first
time in my life, there's a thousand reasons. I think
it's I think it's physiological, biological, I think there's testosterone dropping,
you know, all these reasons that if you have this
new set of rules in the second half of life,
it's beautiful. If you're still trying to live like the
first half of life, it's pathetic, right, because it's a descent.
(32:21):
But now for me, it's an assent. The more hair
I lose, right, the less physicality I can define myself by,
I have to go deeper. That's how I justify being
involved and nobody I truly, I truly believe. Now it's
forced me to stop leaning on this and now I
got to cultivate this my point in my heart for
(32:43):
those listening, and so to me, that's the invitation to
get into something deeper. And I watch these men start
to access their heart, access their feelings open up in
a way that they've never had before.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
It's beautiful. I will know you've gone deep enough when
you put your hand on your heart and there's a
card again underneath it. That is when you have gone
deep in.
Speaker 3 (33:06):
Dude, I'm I can get soft without that soft.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
That's awesome.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
You know.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
It's the first thing you said about, you know, the
begin What works in the beginning of life doesn't work
in the middle. And I'm always reminded of what our
good friend Jordan Peterson says, you never want to be
the thirty year old guy at the frat party, right,
And that's just like I'll never forget him saying that, going,
oh yeah, that just sounds really uncomfortable. Who wants that?
(33:34):
And so to learn those. If you still feel like
you're the thirty year old guy at the frat party
or the fifty year old guy at the frat part
like they want to do something.
Speaker 3 (33:43):
A little different, well you've got to get new rules
new you know, what does it mean to be successful?
Speaker 2 (33:49):
What does it mean?
Speaker 3 (33:51):
This is Victor Frankel I believe of like moving from
self to self transcendence. That's a shift in the afternoon
of life where success to me is all about self
transcendence to whom you know?
Speaker 2 (34:04):
Do I? Who am I serving? Right? What is this for?
Speaker 3 (34:08):
It's got to be something bigger than me. So just
coming up with all these new rules and goals and
ways of being in the world is how you is
how you uh you know, get away from the frat
party as a thirty year old.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Yeah, you can still have fun. That just can't be
at a frat party anymore. Definitely, not, by the way.
I've gone to frat parties and I'm will beyond thirty
because my son's in one. And frankly, if you're still
going to frat parties, you're in hell because these things
are terrible, that bad. Oh that is not like we
remember up all right, brother. Where can people find out
(34:43):
more about man Uprising and join one of these peer groups.
Speaker 3 (34:48):
Man Uprising dot org, man Uprising dot org, or you
can always find me at Defiance Spirit dot org, which
is my sort of go to. It's my uh, it's
my main address. I am either one of those places.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
Reach out to me, and I'd love to connect with
you absolutely. Well. Hey man, I'm so glad you came
on today. I know it's trying to get your time
as you're getting all these peer groups going and supporting
my peer group, our peer group, as well as other things.
You know, I appreciate you, and you know I love
spending time with you. I can't wait to get back
out there to Denver and just hang out and see
where things go.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
Thanks for having me back on the show, and let's
do it again, all.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
Right, man? Take care really, thank care.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
What a beautiful, beautiful man. I love that guy, love
spending time with him, love working with him, love the
projects we were shaping together. A good chance I go
out and do some work with him sometime here in
the next couple couple months, it seems like, so to
find out more about that project, and guys, please go
(35:52):
check out man uprising. Look at the different tools he has.
Join a peer group. The peer groups I think less
than one hundred bucks a month something like that. I
paid for the year up front to commit to the
peer groups, but the you know, I was skeptical. I'll
be honest, four hours is a long time, but the
(36:15):
way they run that four hours is so beneficial and
it's like pretty much getting a week of you know,
four hours of therapy all into a week, and it's
better than therapy in some ways. There's accountability, there's the
group sense. It really is beautiful. So I definitely definitely
recommend taking a look and maybe joining in a peer group,
and hopefully I'll see you out there on the man
(36:37):
uprising community platform. So that's man uprising dot org. You
can find me at defiant spirit dot com, and of
course you can find me at Daniel Afrans dot com.
D A n I E L A F R A
n z dot com. Hey, check it out. The new
ketamine assisted therapy dtiales are now up on the website.
(37:03):
Or if you are a subscriber to doctor Dan's Monday
Morning Meaningful, Monday Meaningful Monday Morning Update, and there's a
lot of m's there. If you subscribe to my weekly email,
you'll be seeing that one sheet and all the details
about that, so take a look and if you're interested,
(37:23):
there are monthly education sessions sponsored by my third party provider,
Journey Clinical or as always, you're welcome to connect with
me through the website, through the socials, etc. As always,
thank you for this opportunity to bring a little bit
of meaning, purpose and resilience to your day.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
Take care,
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