In this engaging conversation, Dr. Dan and Lynn McCracken explore the intersection of mental health, purpose, and personality through the lens of the Enneagram and psychedelic therapy. They discuss the importance of being present in the moment, the significance of understanding one's personality type, and the metaphor of tuning a guitar to illustrate the journey of self-discovery and healing. The dialogue emphasizes the need for connection, the value of self-awareness, and the potential for personal growth through understanding one's default behaviors and emotional responses. In this conversation, Dr. Dan explores various themes related to mental health, including the concept of the Default Mode Network, the tyranny of self-imposed expectations, and the Enneagram personality types. He discusses the integration of psychedelic therapy, particularly ketamine, into therapeutic practices and emphasizes the importance of group healing. The conversation also touches on sound healing and the future directions of therapy, highlighting the need for community and connection in the healing process.
To find out more about Lynn and her work, check out:
lynnmccracken – Coach, Psychotherapist, Transformational Speaker, Singer-Songwriter
or
Therapy, Coaching, & Neurofeedback in Plano - InTune Wellness Center
Takeaways
To find out more about Lynn and her work, check out:
lynnmccracken – Coach, Psychotherapist, Transformational Speaker, Singer-Songwriter
or
Therapy, Coaching, & Neurofeedback in Plano - InTune Wellness Center
Takeaways
- Meaning is found in the moment and engagement with others.
- Joy happens only in the present moment.
- The Enneagram serves as a deeper spiritual growth tool.
- Understanding your default personality helps in self-awareness.
- Healing comes from tuning into your essence, not just treating symptoms.
- Connection with others is essential for mental health.
- Therapy should focus on self-discovery rather than just symptom management.
- Psychedelic therapy can aid in accessing inner healing wisdom.
- Awareness of one's personality type can predict emotional responses.
- You can't unsee the insights gained from self-discovery. The Default Mode Network is crucial for understanding self-referential thinking.
- Self-awareness can help mitigate the tyranny of personality.
- The 'tyranny of the shoulds' can be detrimental to mental health.
- Life's changes are opportunities for growth and mentorship.
- Returning to therapy does not mean one is broken; it reflects life's transitions.
- Understanding Enneagram types can enhance self-awareness and personal growth.
- Psychedelic therapy offers new avenues for healing and integration.
- Group therapy can foster a sense of community and shared experience.
- Sound healing can complement traditional therapeutic practices.
- Therapists should embrace ongoing education and adaptation in their practices.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Hello, and welcome to the Meeting Project podcast. I'm your host,
doctor daniel A Franz, and as always, thank you for
this opportunity to bring a little bit of mental health
meeting purpose resilient psychedelic subsement. Thanks for taking the time
to listen today on the show, I have intrepid therapist, singer, songwriter,
(00:39):
amazing person of the world, Lynn McCracken. Lynn and I
met in the Integrated Psychiatry Institute's psychologist a therapy program.
Literally maybe spent a total of thirty minutes together on
screen in different small groups, but had this connection of
different ideas and she shared a story which ironically we
(01:04):
didn't even get to in the podcast because we had
so many other things to talk about. But she shared
a story in small group once that I said, Hey,
we need to get together and share this with my audience,
and we will do that again in the future because,
as you'll hear in today's podcast, a lot of great ideas, enneagram, psychedelia, guitars,
(01:24):
such a cool comedy, and Lynn fits them all together
in a really amazing and therapeutic way. So I hope
you enjoy and check in the show notes to find
out more. About Lynn and her work at limocrackn dot
com or in Tune Wellness Center dot I think that's
Colm or she tells you here, but hey, enjoy well,
(01:51):
good morning, Lynn.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Thank you so much for taking the time to be
on the Meaning Project podcast.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
You know, I was.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
I used to think I was a busy person, and
then I looked at your multiple websites and singer, songwriter, therapist,
psychedelic therapist, author, starter of a movement, like, oh my goodness,
that's awesome, so much cool stuff on your websites. But
(02:24):
I didn't want to start, you know. You and I
talked about the question like where amongst all of this,
where do you find meaning in purpose?
Speaker 3 (02:32):
Mm? You know I me personally? Are you asking me personally?
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Absolutely?
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Yes? Meaning and purpose I find it in. Well, what
I've realized there are lots of my own personal work,
is that it's in the moment, and it's in being
engaged in this moment with whomever you happen to be
(03:06):
sitting with, or if you're in nature or whatever you
find yourself in this space, this is where joy. The
only place that joy happens is in this moment. And
so meaning is really about being engaged with all of
your senses and connected to your own essence and not
(03:29):
being driven crazy by your ego, which is what you know.
I help people to do is to recognize that voice
inside your head that makes you time travel either to
the future with anxiety or even anticipation excitement, which is
the habit of my personality, is to try to escape
(03:51):
pain today by thinking about all the exciting possibilities in
the future. I use enneagram in my work and that's
that's where I finally was able to get in contact
with This is the only way to find meaning is
in this moment right now, even if it contains things
(04:14):
that are painful. Yeah, that's really meaning.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Yeah, that's just you know, beautiful right in the moments,
which many of us struggle with today with all of
our technology and everything else. Being mindful and meaningful in
the moment is really hard. And I love the statement
you made, like it's who you're with right now, right
(04:40):
we are wired for connection and when we get these
conversations going and we kind of feel in the flow
of connection, yeah, it's it really can be meaningful. Yeah, now,
I almost I know as a as a male therapist,
I'm not allowed to ask this question, so I'm not
going to ask how old you are? A I'm going
(05:00):
to ask are you old enough to remember pee Wee's Playhouse?
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Yes? And also I don't mind saying how old I
am because a lot of like my story actually revolves
around these like milestone birthdays and having these like this
is I want to do this before I'm forty, or
I want to do this before I'm fifty. So I've
had a big milestone this in this last year where
I turned fifty and I do remember pee Wee's Playhouse.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Excellent.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Well, congratulations, welcome to the club myself.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
Are you going to do the dance? Are you going
to be? Like?
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Well, here's the thing I remember. What occurred to me
is is the magic word. Every time on Pee Wee's
Playhouse where they all, the magic word will come out
and everybody would just lose their mind.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
And scream.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
On the meaning Project Enneagraham is always the magic word
that I feel like everybody should do well and not
for good reasons, right for me, because so many people
love it. One of my former co hosts, the beloved
Rabbi b is an enneagram guru. Most people love the
enneagram here and I'm a Myers Briggs guy.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Really tough. Yeah, can you tell me why am I
allowed to give you an interview questions? Oh?
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Absolutely absolutely, because I think it was during COVID. I
was like, well, I got nothing better to do, so
I'm gonna sign up for this intensive Myers Briggs training.
And I spent like forty hours in a week on
a zoom screen learn about the NP, and I just
it always resonated with me. It's scientific, you know, it
(06:39):
comes from union archetypes used and you know we started
formulating in World War two for selection. Like, I get
that there's hard science behind it, and when I dive
into the enneagram, I just I can't get it. It
doesn't resonate with me.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
Really.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
You can rattle off E, N TJ is TP right
now and I'm like, okay, yeah, I get that.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
I understand that.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
You say I'm an Enneagram's free and like I literally
have to go grab a book and be like what
that needed?
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Oh yeah, yeah, So.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
I'm an NFP And I also was trained in Myers
Briggs and I'm a geek when it comes to all
of the personality assessments. I also did disc training. And
so the reason I love enneagram as opposed to Myers
Briggs is that it goes deeper. It's a spiritual growth tool.
(07:32):
It was developed two thousand years ago by the Sufis,
and it still holds true. And also when you line
it up, it will line up with the scientific stuff
that they've developed, like like Myers Briggs, so it actually
stands the test of time. And so it's like the
Myers Briggs proved that the enneagram is right when you
actually look at them and compare them and lay them
(07:54):
on top of each other. But the thing I love
about niagram is yeah, so I use my my practice
is called Intune Wellness Center. And when I talk to
my clients about the concept of this is it's like, so,
since you play guitar, I think you'll get this when
(08:18):
so there's two e's right, there's the there's the little
tiny thin E which I line up with emotions. So,
like we're taught as therapists, we really are concerned about
tuning into people's emotions, right and so, and we get
trained on on learning about emotions so and then b
as next. So we learn about people's beliefs and their
(08:41):
thoughts and we help them challenge those thoughts and investigate
them and and and change the ones that that might
be distorted. Right. And then the next one is is
G we help people develop goals. Right, And so I
sort of feel like that's as far as we got trained,
like half of the strength. And then when when I
(09:05):
go to D, I say, that's your default archetype or
your Enneagram number or your Myers brigs, whatever personality typing
system that you are using. If you don't know what
your default type is and what happens when you're under
stress and you go into when you're in stress, you're
(09:29):
your autopilot just kicks on. My dog is trying to
be a part of this.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Excellent.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
It is upstairs right now, barking. So it's okay, well
you welcome dogs on the podcast.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
Yeah, So the D is your default And if you
don't know what your default personality is, what you do
when when you get in stress and you just go
into this like your you're sleepwalking, You're just acting out
of your automatic ways of being. If you don't know
what that is, then how can you actually catch yourself?
So the reason so I'm going to keep going. So
(10:02):
there's D and then what comes next? A hey, right,
So I do archetypal coaching, and so after I help
people learn about what their default archetype is, then we
learn about all of the archetypes that are available to us.
That might be we might have put them off stage
(10:22):
at a young age and we don't have as much
access to it, but we can activate that in our body,
like really activate whatever energy that we need for the
challenge that's in front of us. So if we can
slow down our automatic way of reacting, then we can choose.
(10:44):
We have a whole menu like of all of these
other things. And the reason I don't just use enneagram
for the archetype, which they are all our archetypes, so
and you're into that obviously, is it's easier to remember
the archetypes than it is to remember numbers. Like you said,
I have to go look at you were like, I
have to go look at a book. That's because nobody
(11:05):
remembers numbers, but we remember these characters, right, And so
so then I teach them about that so they know
what choices and then the the big fixed string that
e that's your essence, and your essence is that thing
that we can't describe, right, that's your spirit, that's the
(11:26):
thing that calls to you about your purpose and meaning.
And that's the part we did get disconnected from when
we're listening to the noise of our ego constantly and
we don't even know that we have a choice. And
so people come in and they're they're like, why are
(11:48):
you asking me about what lights you up or what
brings you meaning? And that's that's the the question that
we started with, is you know, what does that have
to do with my anxiety or depression? Has everything to
do with your anxiety depression because you're disconnected from your
essential self. You're that child that before you were conditioned,
(12:10):
before someone told you that you weren't good at singing
or or drawing. You know, when you decided you had
to be a quote unquote grown up and you you
abandon your your dreams. You're the things that that made
you feel like human.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Wow, Like I'm I did not dive this far into
your uh, your intune wellness and that I mean, that's beautiful,
that's amazing.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
For those that aren't familiar with the guitar, right, Okay,
so here's here's my reminder of the of the of
the strings. And I wish I could remember where I
got this from, but it goes Eddie eight dynamite, Good
bye Eddie, right, or Eddie ate dinner, Good boy Eddie.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
But here's the problem. What you just described took me
five years, and a guitar teacher would be like, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
It's from the bottom of the guitar up and not
the top of the guitar down. And most of you
out there, it's not the thick chord to the thin chord.
It's the thin chord up to the thick chord that
you just use. And what a oh my goodness, that's
just it's beautiful, what a model.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
Yeah, it makes me kind of crazy when I think
about how much time I spent even as a therapist,
because we're not taught to really get deeper than that, right,
because we're just taught to look at the look at
the at the science based stuff. And so Western medicine
has really, I think, in a lot of ways, failed
(13:46):
to help people find the type of healing that that
we long for by trying to just numb the symptoms.
And so that's when I when I use the guitar
also as a metaphor or just tell clients like, you're
not broke broken, you're just out of tune. So we
have to figure out which string, or maybe all the
(14:08):
strings they're just a little bit out of tune and
they just need a little bit of adjustment. It might
just be a tiny bit, but if just one string
is out of tune, then the chord sounds like crap.
And so it doesn't mean you're broke. But our western
medicine system basically treats us like you have a symptom.
So let me give you a diagnosis, which is saying
(14:30):
you're broken or that symptom is something that's going wrong,
and let me give you medicine to numb out that
symptom that you're having. And I say, how about slow
down and listen to what and be curious about what
is that symptom showing up for. What is it telling
you that maybe needs just a little bit of an adjustment.
(14:54):
And it usually starts pretty quiet, it whispers to you,
and that's you know, your essence. Is that interhaling wisdom
that we learned about in our psychedelic assisted therapy program,
is this interhaling wisdom really has so like it wants
(15:18):
us to flourish and to grow and to bear fruit,
and so that we can share it with others because
we need one another, and we you know, the indigenous
people knew and the Sufis knew so much more. Then
this is why I don't. This is why I have
(15:39):
become more interested in the older stuff that might not
be quote unquote science based, because I feel like that
perennial wisdom that keeps showing up in cultures throughout time
has so much to show us, especially here in Western culture.
Because of the way that we approach things, I feel
(15:59):
like it's only those those bottom strengths. What are you know,
what emotions are you having? What you know disturbances, what
symptoms are you having? And you know it must be
it's something that's wrong with you. Instead of teaching people
to go like, maybe there's something wrong with my routine.
(16:23):
Maybe my body needs more sleep, maybe I need to
move my body. Maybe I am isolating and not connecting
with the people that love me, and I'm stuck in
my head and I'm in the dangerous neighborhood that I
shouldn't go to alone in my head and I'm spinning,
And so anyway, I think I just look look at
(16:45):
things a lot differently than I did in the beginning
when I first became a therapist and I was trying
so hard to do you know what. We were taught
to look at symptoms and diagnoses and and help heal people.
But really people have the ability to heal within themselves,
(17:05):
but they don't even know they can tune into this
deeper part of them that has wisdom and knows what
they need.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
I look when longtime listeners of the podcast are sitting there, going, oh,
my goodness, these two have obviously worked together every day
for the past year, right, because like so much of
what you say is resonating with my practice, my work,
how I help people, and what I've said here for years.
(17:35):
And it's ironic, like literally, you and I what spent
thirty minutes together, spread across two different small groups, right,
But there was something in those conversations like, Okay, we
totally need to talk and share this with people. So
many things you said, like a yeah, I've been saying
this a lot, especially this year. It really has occurred
to me our not just Western medicine, but our way
(17:58):
of training therapists really is just those three strings, right,
help people identify emotions because, according to Western therapist training,
other humans are not as resourceful or intelligent enough to
know their own emotions, and so we have to help
them identify them and then fix them and do that
all in eight to twelve sessions or less, where insurance
(18:19):
will say no. And then this is the word that
I don't know if you learned this word in grad school,
but you know they taught us what happens when you're
done seeing a client after eight to twelve sessions, Well,
then you terminate them.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
You terminate the relationship.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
And it's just like, oh my god, that twenty five
years ago that didn't resonate, but today it's like, I
love that model you're sharing.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
Like you're not broken, you're out of tune. And even
if we use the guitar and metaphor again, even if
one of your strings is broken, we have all kinds
of other ones that we can replace it with. We
have great resources. We can put you back into tune.
You can tune.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
Yourself and oh, I'm going to take this metaphor farther
land and you can use this if you need to.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Right like.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
When when we're we can we can teach you so
many more strings. And eventually, if when you practice this,
like I started, I had a guitar tuner on my phone,
and then I had like one of the clip on ones.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
And now I've learned over time and practice, I can
do it myself with my yeah, just listening and people
right not you know, we've learned this. In our psychedelic
training logo Therapy, Victor Frankel talks about this. We don't
become broken, right, our spirits become clouded, right, we lose
touch with ourselves and with others. But eventually, when we
(19:37):
practice these things, we can put ourselves back into tune.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
Right, and you can catch it really early, really quickly,
before you feel like it's you're just completely discombobulated. Like
I have friends that are playing on stage and they'll
be in the middle of a song, and I can't
do this as a as a musician, but I am
(20:01):
always in awe, like they'll be literally performing a song. Da.
I don't know if you've ever seen this happen before,
but no one even knows they're playing. They're they're continuing
to play, and they just reach up and they in
the middle of a song. They keep going and I'm like,
I feel like that that would be amazing. That's my goal,
and that's my goal is to teach people how to notice,
(20:23):
like in the moment with another human if they're having
a moment where their ego takes over and it's super predictable.
Because that's the other thing I love about enneagram is
that it tells you exactly. I mean, it's it dictates
everything you think, feel, and do, and it's the motivation
of everything you think, feel and do. And when you're
(20:44):
in that place where where your ego takes over, which
happens when we're in stress, that's just that's kind of amazing.
It just it takes over for us. So thanks autopilot.
But then our gifts become are you know, kryptom night
when we continue down that path, but we feel really
(21:05):
self justified in it, and so we continue down that path.
And I always I warn my clients before we even
go down the path. I say, do you like you're
coming to me because you have something going on in
your life right now? You're in pain, and then you
want the pain to go away. That's why people come
to counseling, right something is really difficult, And so that
(21:30):
tells me already you're in that auto pilot violot place,
and I say, do you I want to give you
a tool that you can use long after our time together,
those age of twelve sessions that you're talking about. I
don't want to terminate you. I want to give you
a tool that you can use to help notice when
you're out of tune. And also I want to warn
(21:54):
you that once you see it, you can't unsee it.
So if I if we go to on this path
where you're learning about this default and you learn and
this is this is really the bottom line of what
I tell my clients about what I love about Anagram
compared to Myers Briggs, and I specifically will say it.
So I'm sorry if I'm contradicting you, but I say,
(22:15):
the thing I love about Aneagram over all the other
types is it really shows you, verbatim what your crazy
looks like. And the whole all nine all nine of
those in the unhealthiest version is the whole DSM. And
(22:39):
so that's what made me go, are you kidding me? Like, uh,
all of these diagnoses are just if you know what
your default personality type is, then you actually know what
in your most unhealthy state, what diagnoses you are prone
to developing. It's so predictable, like it's ridiculis sleep predictable
(23:01):
And so if you know what you're crazy, looks like,
sounds like, acts like all of that. Once you know that,
you can't unsee it and then feel self justified it
anymore because you okay, you're like, oh crap, there goes
my personality again taking over. Like I'm a seven on
the enneagram. So what sevens do? And it sounds really shallow,
(23:22):
especially for a therapist, So it's embarrassing sharing this, but
seven's the motivation of a seven is to have fun
and avoid pain. Seven superpower is reframing things that are
painful and thoughts that that are that hurt, reframing it
(23:43):
to the positive. So of course when I learned CBT,
I mean that's my superpower. I can reframe something before
any pain even gets close to me. I can reframe it,
I can go My difficult childhood was such a benefit
to me. It makes me better therapist because I know
what it's like to go through all sorts of toxic things.
(24:04):
I'm so grateful I grew up in a really toxic
alcoholic family system, and I can stay it with a
smile on my face and also believe it because even
like just do that, like pain's coming my way, I
can like boom, I'm just going to reframe that.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Yeah, and that's that I mean is totally what we're
taught in cognitive behavioral therapy, right, like just reframing everything,
like doing the Jedi mind trick, Like no, no, these
are not the thoughts you're looking for, like change them
to different thoughts.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
Great tool to have, but your only tool. It's you're
going to come crashing down, Like it's it's gonna take
you down, because your feelings will get stored in your
body and then you know, become an autoimmune disease or something,
and it will be like listen to me, listen to me,
listen to me. You actually need to tend to this.
(24:56):
And so with anygram, what you have, uh, it's the
feeling and doing are the centers of intelligence. And each
of the types have a dominant one and a repressed one,
and so this determines the goals once you know what
someone's enneagram type is. So I'll use me, for example,
thinking dominant. So it's like three legs to the school.
(25:19):
It's like overgrown the thinking. So I'm thinking and doing
and thinking and doing and thinking and doing constantly to
avoid feeling, which is repressed at a young age. And
so the goal, if I was working with me, would
be catch yourself in the thinking when you get into
that hyperactive thinking, especially about the future and all the
(25:41):
exciting possibilities, because that means your personality is taken over
to help you avoid something painful. And so first you
have to recognize that slow down, and then you have
to go what is the painful thing I'm trying to
avoid so that you can grow what's pressed. But you
have to consciously go. And so my songwriting, I thought
(26:05):
it was about expressing my feelings. I really thought that
before I learned Enneagram and what I learned through doing
this work, and really, I mean there's a lot of
contemplative practice involved where you have to really slow down
and check in consciously every day. What I learned is
(26:25):
is that during this time, I got a phone call
that a friend of mine passed away in a car accident,
and I watched myself. I observed myself do this on
the phone. When I'm getting this news, I'm like, my God,
what are you thinking? God? What are you thinking? Like,
I'm just like and then I hung up the phone
and I immediately started writing a song. My god, what
(26:49):
are you thinking? It seems like the ship is sinking
and I don't know if I can float. So that
started coming into my head, and so then I pick
up my guitar and I'm like, my god, what are
you thinking? And I'm like, I'm writing. And then I go, oh,
my god, I know I know what I'm doing right now.
(27:12):
This is not expressing my feelings. This was the fastest
way for me to shift into thinking and doing by
coming up with the line, then looking for rhyming words
and other lines, and then picking up my guitar so
that I could do something that I that I love
(27:32):
that lights me up. And then I have completely avoided
because now I've shifted. I'm writing words that have to
do with feelings, but I am thinking and doing. I'm
not feeling anymore. And so then I had to make
myself because this is this is the thing. I go, oh,
you can't unsee it, and then you have to actually
(27:53):
pay attention to it. You can't use it anymore, like
you're blanky to cope in that way, And so I
was like, I got to go lay with my dog
and cry because I lost my friend, and it's okay
in this moment. I won't be held down in pain forever.
That's Seven's biggest fear. If I allow the pain, if
(28:17):
I really allow the pain, then I might be held
down in pay forever and not make it back to
the light. Is the lie of the Seven's personality.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
I know this was not the intention of today's conversation,
but I'm sould land. All right, where do I go?
What do I read?
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Because I know if what.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
I've read talk to you about your Enneagram number, we'll
we'll have to do another podcast later.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
Oh no, we're gonna I've already got it into mind.
We're gonna get there. We're going to see right again.
All the long time listeners are like, oh, I can't
wait to hear what she has to say about that
crazy personality. So so many things against so many things, resonating.
That's one of my favorite things to tell clients when
they're like, oh my god, but what if I go
back to the way things once more? And I'm like,
you can't. We've completely ruined that right. Once the genie's
(29:06):
out of the bottle. Once Pandora's box is open, you
can't go back to the same way of functioning. So
it's like, what skills can you use, here's the whole
set of them, Which ones are gonna work for you?
What tools and the toolbox are going to help you
so that you don't go back? And I love how
you've described Oh my goodness, this is gonna blow people's minds, right,
Like I like how you use the enneagram to kind
(29:29):
of describe that and what those tools are and how
you made that happen. It's going back to that idea,
right of whether it's whether you've come to understand yourself
with the anagram or the Meyers Briggs or any other assessment.
When we are stressed, when we struggle, we go back
to our strengths and sometimes they express themselves really negatively.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
And I can.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Imagine how my anagram does that. And as you said,
you called that the default a lot, and that's a
lot of what we talked about in psychedelic school is
how do we shut down that default mode.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Network right and learn?
Speaker 2 (30:14):
And like now you're connecting that with like, yeah, you
just you know, have academene experience or eat a few
mushrooms and have a sitter integrate that with you, and
then all of a sudden, your default mode networks off
and you can learn so many things going into this
conversation that just work so well. Yeah, you've put it
(30:34):
all together in a guitar metaphor, which I love.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
Sorry, That's what made me so excited about when I
first started learning about the research about psychedelics and about
how they actually identified that part of the brain, that
self referential part of the brain and your and they
called it your default mode network, and I went, oh, wow,
I've already known this. This is the work I've been
(30:57):
doing with clients. I'm like work trying to become aware
of that that default way of thinking that takes over.
I call it like the tyranny of of your of
your personality, Like when that part of you takes over
and it tells you those really familiar stories and it's
(31:19):
driven by that really familiar fear that is actually unfounded.
If you are able to slow down and observe it
and go, oh, that's sweet of you, personality, like you're
trying to protect me. Thanks, thank you. Also, it's okay
for me to cry. I'm not going to be held
down in pain forever. Sorry, like I'm really not so awesome.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
And when you know, when you said tyranny, that really
reminded me. I can't maybe remember whose theory this is
or who came up with this, but that idea, the
tyranny of the shoulds. Right, how often we engage and
that like I should be this, I should do that,
I should have done this, And it's like no, no, no, a.
Where do all these shoulds come from?
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Right?
Speaker 2 (31:59):
Who voice is that in your head?
Speaker 1 (32:01):
And be you?
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Just you can stop shooting all over yourself whenever you want.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
My clients always, uh you know when they a lot
of times when they end up coming back after you know,
they fix their problem and then they have another issue
and then they they call and they go I still
hear your voice in my head every time I say
should do myself about about myself or about someone else,
I just hear you in my head going like, oh
there you go. You're shooting on yourself again or you're
(32:28):
shooting on others. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
I've had to apologize that for many times with that quote,
like what if I go back and like, I'm sorry,
we have ruined that.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
And if you start to slip. You are going to
see this bald head and hear this voice and it's
it's over. And they're like, thought a book. Oh my goodness,
you're right, it does happen. So but that's that's also
a beautiful thing too, which goes against Western therapists training
that idea of when people come back.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
I love equating that with the Hero's Journey. It doesn't
mean you're broken or your guitar string is broken, or
you're out of tune again. It means life's changed. You know,
the only constant in life has changed, and you know,
different transitions in life, going from high school to college,
to marriage, to employment, to old age to all these things. Right, Like,
(33:15):
each step has an opportunity to seek a mentor, as
as Joseph Campbell tells us in The Hero's Journey, right like,
every good hero has a mentor. It's okay if that
mentor is a therapist and you come back, they're like, no, no,
you're shooting again.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
It's okay to.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Stop or whatever.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
That guidance might be so different than the medical model
of okay, you get eight sessions, you're fixed, hallelujah, and
get out and don't come back. No, it's good to
have somebody that you can connect with and continue to
go back.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
Yes, all right, so.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
You wanna you wanna, Let's let's go ahead and put
this on display. I have heard now this is going
to be confusing again to some people have listened for
a while because a former occasional co host said I
was an eight. But then now he has changed that
because I think he saw a little bit of himself
and me too much and was maybe over identifying. We'll
(34:09):
have to come back to that because for a long time,
most of the most of my peers and therapists around
me said, I'm a one.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Really, Oh oh okay, that's a scary reaction.
Speaker 3 (34:22):
No, I'm I'm just a lot of times eight or
misidentified sixes and eights are misidentified as each other. So
that was my like ones and eights. I mean, I
can see it. So do you know the motivation of
each of those or do you know the name? So
(34:42):
the boss is eight, and the motivation of evan eight.
It seems to others as if an eight wants to
be in control, but actually the motivation is to not
be controlled by others. Ones want they're the prof afectionists,
so they want to do the right thing, and it
(35:04):
feels like so seven's go to one in stress. So
I know what it feels like to go to one.
And I can't even imagine living in that place always
because that inner critic is so loud and mean, and
if anything is imperfect at all, the one's motivation is
(35:28):
to be perfect, so to perfect themselves, and it's and
also if that's not enough, because that's a full time job,
right for us to perfect ourselves, but also to perfect
everything else around them that's not perfect, and so that
that critical voice inside is just like constantly like telling
(35:50):
them what to do. But you know if you are
a one, because you're doing a lot of this, so
it seems like maybe it sounds familiar. So here's a test.
They say that this is a lot of my a
lot of my clients and also some of the Enneagram people.
I keep hearing this over and over again. So you
(36:12):
tell me if this is true, and I can maybe,
like you could go get your daughter or your wife
and we could ask her. When you go on vacation,
are you like the life of the party. You have
so much fun, You're a completely different person. You're not
making your to do list because you can't do it
because you're not at home.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
No, I'm usually to doing I'm making sure everybody's having it.
Maybe there's a combo there. I'm making sure every's having
a good time. We have plenty of things to do,
and we're going to go see amazing things.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
You're still to doing it. Oh yeah, we need to.
We need to have more conversations about this because ones
have a hard time letting loose. M.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
So here's the interesting thing. It depends on who I'm with. Uh,
you know, when we go with other couples, there's there's
a few good friends who even do more planning than
I do.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
And I'm just like sweet to just kind of follow along.
And if it's with my family, if it's with the girls,
my wife or the dog. Like I'm putting together lists
months ahead of time. I'm like, all right, what would
you guys like to do? Let's go, you know, plan
this that day. Oh, totally planning the hell out of it.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
So I would encourage you one, I'd encourage you to
take the test. I don't even want to make guesses,
but I heard I have a third guest theory of
what number you are just based on people that are
closest to me that that are you like just described
at all. And it's so right. Ones are very black
(37:42):
and white too, so it's hard for me to think
that you doing what you do with this like really
deep work the meaning. I'm not saying ones can't be deep,
by the way, but I think that you're so drawn
to this the idea of meaning, which which is a
very non dualistic way of thinking, and ones are are
(38:06):
very black and white, and so they can be drawn
to things that are. And maybe that explains why you
like the Myers Briggs more than Enneagraham. I don't know,
could be, but I I think that kind of the
(38:26):
more esoteric stuff usually is not something that a one
would be as drawn to because you want to like
like ones, want to fit it in into like right
or wrong categor So.
Speaker 1 (38:40):
Okay, So this is one of my arguments with the
enneagram is well, it might be this might be that
like to observe yourself.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
I can't. So that's the all right, fair enough, fair enough,
I say to my clients, Look, here's the deal. Those
tests are only to narrow it down to your top three.
That's why it gives you extensive and information on your
top three. And here's what I tell my clients. Look,
number one, we know you're in your stress number right
now because you're coming to counseling. So your stress number
(39:10):
because you go to a different number and stress, and that.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
Reminds me like it does come in threes, right, there's
kind of a related priangle.
Speaker 3 (39:16):
Okay, So I'm like, your stress number is going to
probably show up in your top three. That doesn't mean
it's the motivation of your whole personality. So one would
show up in my top three if I'm going to counseling,
but that's not what motivates my personality. That's where I
go in stress, and so I go to a complete opposite.
And that's what's so amazing about it too, because I
(39:38):
actually need to go to one so I can make
lists and get stuff done. So we need our stress number,
but we need to go to the optimal range, the
healthy side of our stress number. And if we don't
know better, then when we're in an autopilot, we automatically
tend towards the unhealthy side of that number. And so
(39:58):
that's when the self critical voice starts, you know, going
like if you're not perfect, when you're performing, then you
should just stop. Are you doing this?
Speaker 1 (40:07):
Like?
Speaker 3 (40:07):
Yeah? Okay?
Speaker 1 (40:09):
So where for the listeners interested out there as well
as for myself, where would be a good place to
Where's a good accurate version of the test.
Speaker 3 (40:16):
So the Enneagram Institute is the number one. There's lots
of free tests out there. The reason I like the
Enneagram Institute is they they they do really incredible testing
and education of people, and there's lots of information and
(40:38):
they also have a they have the variance. I don't Yeah,
I don't want to get like it's it's super complicated
when I start talking about but there's two different tests
that you can take. It gives you a like a
more clear picture too, because you know, just like there's
lots of different shades of every color. One, you know,
(40:58):
person who's the one is going to look different than
a different person that's one, and a lot of that
has to do with that, the variance and stuff like that.
So the Anagram Institute dot org is really great for that.
And I also I like the Anya app. That app
has a lot of really good information. If you're wanting
(41:19):
something held in your hand so that you can refer
to it because you have a hard time, you know,
keeping track of it. That's really good. And then there's
a book called ah well, there's several different books. But
and why am I blinking out on the Wisdom of
the Anagram is what it's called. Also Richard anything like
(41:42):
Richard Rhor also writes a lot about the anagram, and
I love Richard Rhor. The Wisdom of the Aneagram gives
a lot of diagrams about kind of I like. I
like diagrams and kind of like shows kind of what's
under the surface and what you see on top of
free each of the types and how it develops in
(42:02):
childhood and gives you a lot more information.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
Well, then now that IPI, you know, our psychedelic school
is over, I'm always looking for something new to study,
so I'm feeling it'll.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
Be going way.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
Yeah, so let's let's there's a clunky transition there. Let's
transition into a little bit about Well, I'm kind of curious.
It's not a transition, it's related. How does psychedelic work
coincide with all this, interact with all this? I mean,
what have you taken out of our time together at IPI.
Speaker 3 (42:31):
Yeah. The thing that I love about it is because
this medicine, whether it be the ketamine or psilocybin in
Texas that I can only I'm I do ketamine assist
a psychotherapy because that's all.
Speaker 1 (42:47):
Still hear the rumor, has it you guys, have I
have a gain on the docket? Is that correct?
Speaker 3 (42:54):
I have not heard that yet. Okay, But also I
don't I know very little about IVY game, just what
we learned in our in our study. I haven't personally
experienced IVY game. It feels a little bit, have you.
I have not, but it feels a little scary to me. Honestly,
I'm like, oh, like the stuff that we did learn
(43:16):
feels well, I'm a seven, so it feels like a
lot of suffering. It feels like, oh, like the depths
like you we learned from the Veterans program, Like right,
it feels.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
Like, wow that there's a part of me that I'm like,
I don't know if I'm going to be when they
talk about a what was it seven or eight hour journey?
Speaker 1 (43:41):
Yeah, a psilocybin was it? Now?
Speaker 2 (43:44):
I love everybody. I love my psilocybin journey. I loved
everything about it. I love the preparation, the integration. I
just got off the call with my my sitter in Greece. Right,
He's like everything about it was lucky my group. We
all stay in touch. I don't know if I want to.
Speaker 3 (44:04):
I have my sitch day.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
Oh because for your doing licensure, right.
Speaker 3 (44:09):
I'm going to get licensed in Colorado so I can
do retreats there.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
That's awesome. Oh see, we need to have another conversation
with that. You're not gonna chatting a bit, it seems.
Speaker 3 (44:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:20):
So when it comes at like I've even heard IV
again is on the docket for Indiana as well, we're
looking at psilocybin reform in our state for therapeutic use.
I don't know if I would because again what we've
heard is it's intense, it's very therapeutic. I just don't
know if you want to go there now. On the
other hand, the other part of what we heard about
with IB again is its use with d MT and
(44:45):
dimethyl triplene.
Speaker 3 (44:46):
Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (44:46):
I get that one right, very good distilled from poison toad,
poison skin slime.
Speaker 3 (44:55):
Right, Like have to make sure that you ask if
if they were treated you Mainly they're milked.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
I was like milk milking toads in the American Southwest.
Speaker 1 (45:08):
That's well.
Speaker 2 (45:10):
And I brought this up a few times. I used
to work in adolescent substance abuse twenty twenty five years ago,
and that was one of the things back in the
early two thousands, all these kids were like part of
the treatment was they had to come up with their
drug list and it almost became like a badgecuragon, like, oh, yeah,
I've done DMT, And back then I really didn't know
what DMT was. Now that I've heard about it today.
Speaker 1 (45:27):
I'm like, oh, you are so full of it. There
is no way you had access to DMT back then.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
But you know, DMT is available in other sources. That
is the primary way we're getting it. But you know,
they call it the God molecule because it taps into
something inherent in our spirituality and it's brief, intense.
Speaker 3 (45:49):
I'm very interested in that.
Speaker 1 (45:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (45:51):
See, as a seven, even my personality determines which drugs
I like. I became that sounds suffering the God molecule
and you gets to an experience right with God instantly.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
Yes, you're high five in the Holy Spirit for fifteen
minutes and you're back to normal, right, and you feel
much better about life. So it will be it will
be interesting to see if that comes around. But oh
my goodness, we went to oh yeah because of our
last bit of training was all about ivy gains, where
so you're bringing ketamine into your uh.
Speaker 3 (46:29):
Intune therapy in session with clients now through Journey Clinical,
so they are the fiber Oh yep, yeah, And I'm
really after our experience with IPI, I just keep hearing
over and over again the reminder that that healing happens
(46:53):
in community, and I so am on fire about doing
this in groups that I've been kind of obsessed for
the last month looking for spaces that would be conducive
to recreating my whole business plan around offering groups because
(47:18):
I see these really powerful things happening one on one
with my clients and I so I've been feeling this
way though for probably ten years, like if I could
just introduce my three o'clock to my one o'clock, both
of their lives would be so much better. But I can't.
So if I could do more groups, and we should
(47:39):
also talk more about this offline, about just the idea
of kind of how to structure it, but the way
that Journey clinical does it. They send you to you
know this, but I'm saying this for your audience. They
send you to sessions worth of medicine. And so my
idea is, Okay, we'll do those verse two one on
(48:01):
one so you can get comfortable and we know how
you react. But then after that we're going to go
to a group, because that's where healing happens. Even if
it's something that you feel like, oh no, I don't
want I don't want to be imperfect or a mess
around other people, right, which is what often would hold
(48:22):
us back.
Speaker 1 (48:23):
Yeah, but that's that's the beauty of the group. Yep,
that's the beauty of the group.
Speaker 3 (48:27):
Not alone, everybody mess. And that's the other thing about
enneagram is that it's a great equalizer because all of
us are all of us are crazy. It's just what
kind of crazy? What what brando crazy? Are you? And
if you don't even know, how can you take it?
You turn back to being healthy and so in a
group you can you can actually see that and connect
(48:50):
with your humanity and realize that you're not alone in
feeling like you're a mess, and that we're all making
it up as we go along. No one has their
shit together.
Speaker 2 (49:01):
Yep, that's again because of the powerful healing of the kedemy.
I'm still in touch with the group. I went to
Colorado with we still and when I got back from Colorado,
I did my my Kedmaine retreat back in November. November,
that sounds about right. I came back so on fire
with the power of that helium. I'm like, I got
to share this, and I just shared with the therapist
I'm in touch with, and by January we had six
(49:23):
people ready to go. We did a beautiful group in
this local environment that had beautiful outside scenier and everything,
and we did lunch together and then some integration. It
was so awesome. Now, I find it interesting that you
would go journey. I work with wonderful woman Julie Attis,
(49:46):
who's been on the podcast before, with a group called
Ketamine is Hope here in my area, and she she
comes in and does dosing for me. She does I
Am Right, which works beautifully because you know, she comes
in and she does Wait. It's fast acting and people
go into their journeys really rapidly. Have you done much
work with with journeys medicine.
Speaker 3 (50:07):
Yet with journey clinical Uh huh? Oh, yes, with the
with the lingual yes.
Speaker 1 (50:14):
Can you imagine now when it's one on one in
my office right, there's a lot of swishing and spitting,
and I have to dispose it like I'm not sure
how I feel about doing swishing and spitting and throwing
away a dozen.
Speaker 3 (50:26):
Oh so we did. So I've done two groups really yeah,
with another Journey clinical therapist that's your local and we
actually met on the Journey Clinical portal doing the peer
to peer thing, and I, because we're in Texas, people
are tend to be more conservative here, and so I
was very on fire about wanting to I'm a supervisor,
(50:49):
wanting to teach therapists and give them an actual experience
with Kennymine so that they can when their clients are
asking them about it, they will be informed and having
an experience and know how to talk to them about
it instead of going, oh no, that's you know. One
of the things I heard early on when I started
looking into psychedelic therapy and I had some reservations too,
(51:14):
was you know, if if as a therapist you're concerned
about doing medication assisted therapy, how many of your clients
are on psychotropic medications? You are already doing medicationist is
a therapy, except the medication is doing the opposite. It's
tamping down the symptoms and numbing them out, and this
(51:35):
medicine brings out what you need to work on. And
so so that's what I'm trying to do with this
other therapist in providing groups and an experience to educate
other therapists about this. So we did it twice, and
you know, they had their own cups. We have you know,
(51:58):
I have a system. They have their own cups and
with clean X in it, and so they you know,
we time it and they spit in their own cups
and then I bring a trash can around and they
can throw that away and I give them at like
grape flavored usually because it's kind of a stronger flavored
gatorade to swish in their mouth afterwards to get that
taste out. And then they just throw those away and
(52:20):
then lay down on their mats and have a wonderful journey.
And then we do the integration and creativity and lunch,
and we do the sound bass and yoga and stuff
like that ahead of time for preparation.
Speaker 2 (52:34):
What kind of sound bath I just did one last week?
Speaker 1 (52:37):
What do you do.
Speaker 3 (52:38):
So Luckily my cotherapist is she's she has the big gongs.
And then we actually also hired an intern to come
in who does the crystal sound bowls, so we had both.
We had the gongs on one side of the room
and the crystal sound balls on the other side, and
(52:59):
so we had a little bit of both, which was
amazing awesome.
Speaker 2 (53:03):
I just found a place last week that had the
crystal chakra bowls and I put it on our family
calendar and my wife's like, what in the sand? What
are you doing? I'm like, oh, yeah, this is It's
like that is such a hippie woo thing. She uses
other language. And my daughter's like, oh dad, yeah, let's go.
I'm going to bring my co worker and bring yeah,
(53:25):
bring the woo woo to me.
Speaker 1 (53:26):
And uh yeah. We had we had a blast.
Speaker 2 (53:28):
It was a great time and we'll go back and like,
there's a part of me that wants to drop a
couple thousand dollars on crystal bowls, but I think this
training is enough right now. So that's I love the
sound healing stuff with. Now the enneagram, I think that's
the next area of study for me. Where is it
where are you located in Texas where you're doing this
(53:48):
amazing work.
Speaker 3 (53:49):
I am in Plano, Texas, which is a suburb of Dallas.
So it's just it's about fifteen minutes from when there's
no traffic at Dallas, but you know there's traffic.
Speaker 2 (54:02):
I've been to quite a few conferences in Dallas or
we have a conference that's in Addison very often.
Speaker 3 (54:06):
Oh yeah, it's really close to Addison, is it? Okay? Yeah,
as are right butt up against each other.
Speaker 1 (54:13):
Oh o kid, okay, So yeah.
Speaker 2 (54:15):
There have been times it's taken me fifteen minutes from
the airport. There's times it's taken me two hours for
the airport. So love Texas traffic. I'm sure you've got
sessions coming up. I know I do. How can people
we're going to get back together and continue this conversation
that was way too much in too short a time.
But where can people find out more about your amazing work?
Speaker 3 (54:37):
Well? I have, you know, like you checked out, I do.
I have two different websites. My lynnmaccracken dot com is
more geared towards my music, and that one is under
construction right now, but it's in Tune Wellness Center dot
com and so that's I N t U N e
(54:58):
W E l l n an e SS center dot com.
Speaker 2 (55:04):
Make sure that is included in the show notes so
people can just click on the link instead of spell it.
That's so much easier though.
Speaker 3 (55:10):
Way, yes, it's really long. Yeah, I think I'm I'm
actually going to replace that one with the lynnmccracken dot
com just to make it easier and more memorable and
less typing. So, uh, but you know, technology, now that
this program's over, I have time to work on.
Speaker 2 (55:31):
That was I was actually just talking to the gentleman
at Sapho me and so that's the same thing we're
talking about now that the program is over. I don't
know about you. I still have twelve more hours of
supplemental information and then two hundred question tests.
Speaker 3 (55:42):
I did all of the quizzes. I was so excited
because I wanted to be finished that day. I wanted
to feel like I graduated. And then I was like,
where's the final. I don't know where we can take
the final because I want to go take the final.
Speaker 2 (55:55):
Now you haven't taken the somebody in my group's got
their little certificate and everything, so the finals they're somewhere
I think, yeah, you might want to ask our good
friends over at IPS.
Speaker 3 (56:07):
I put it. I put it on the community question board,
like where is it? Where's the final? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (56:14):
Well I still had twelve more hours to go. I
was listening to the what was it the Sustainable Care
of Psilocybin Handling or something like that. That was fascinating,
really fascinating. Yeah, sorry, all right, onward decession to do
all that good work and help people, We're gonna have you.
But I'm going to go take the enneagram quiz and
(56:36):
I will allow you to dissect me live on air
for the.
Speaker 3 (56:40):
Oh that would be so incredible. Okay, So after you
take it, though, here's what you have to do. It's
not necessarily the top one. It's going to give information
about all three and you have to then highlight the
ones that really resonate, but then observe. You'll usually be
able to eliminate one of the three immediately, and then
(57:01):
there will be two and then you're going Then you
have to observe yourself throughout the day, like in the
moment when you feel compelled to act in a certain way,
to react to do something. That's when you go, oh wait,
is this the motivator or is this the motivator between
the two?
Speaker 1 (57:16):
Okay, all right, I'm in I will give it a try.
Speaker 3 (57:20):
Well, you paying attention and observing non judgmentally, just observing yourself.
Speaker 2 (57:25):
That the particle internal voice does not do non judgment
very well on the inside.
Speaker 3 (57:29):
Yeah, you've got to observe yourself. And that's what's different
about It's very hard. If we could test your motivation
and accurately, we wouldn't need our legal system. Right.
Speaker 1 (57:39):
So, such a good point.
Speaker 3 (57:41):
Right, So you have to observe what's motivating me in
order for you to answer the question about what number
you are?
Speaker 2 (57:49):
Okay, and anybody else that wants to join along in
the Shenanigans, check out an institute dot org and you
can play along at home. Is in a future episode
when I sex my personality, I can't using the anagram,
I can't wait.
Speaker 3 (58:04):
I am excited too.
Speaker 1 (58:05):
Yeah all right, Lynn, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (58:07):
It was a pleasure. I can't wait to chat again.
Speaker 3 (58:10):
Yes, absolutely, all right? Bye? Bye?
Speaker 1 (58:14):
Oh well, oh okay, how much fun was that? So
many cool ideas there. I if you couldn't tell from
my enthusiasm, I absolutely love her guitar metaphor probably because
I have guitar lessons later today, or I've been really
(58:34):
working hard on a couple songs. But that was just
I could I could feel the therapeutic value there. So,
and for those of you that are just picking yourself
up off the floor after me here, after hearing me
say I was going to check out the enneagram yet again,
why don't you hop on with me anagram Institute dot org.
(58:55):
You can check out more about Lynn at her work
and lynnmaccracken dot com or in Tune Wellness Center dot
com linkser in the show notes, I'm gonna go see
some clients and then i am going to once again
take the Enneagram assessment to see what it has to say,
and Lynn and I will get together in the future
(59:16):
to die sac dissect the inner workings of doctor Dan.
I hope you will join us then. Meanwhile, to find
out more about what I'm doing, check out Daniel A
Franz dot com. That's d A n I E l
A f r a n z dot com. Upcoming this
year later on, we will be having another ketamine assisted
(59:42):
psychotherapy retreat here in north central Indiana.
Speaker 2 (59:47):
That is information. There's avail on the website if you'd
like to participate, and coming up in the same month
of September this year, I just learned of the Victor
Frankel Institute of Logo Therapy will be hosting I believe
this is the twenty fifth Annual Logo Therapy Congress this
(01:00:08):
year in Chicago, Illinois, So if you want to participate
in that, take a look. I'll have information to available on
the website. Meanwhile, as always, thank you once again for
this opportunity to bring a little bit of meaning, purpose
and resilience to your day.
Speaker 1 (01:00:22):
Take care,
Hello, and welcome to the Meeting Project podcast. I'm your host,
doctor daniel A Franz, and as always, thank you for
this opportunity to bring a little bit of mental health
meeting purpose resilient psychedelic subsement. Thanks for taking the time
to listen today on the show, I have intrepid therapist, singer, songwriter,
(00:39):
amazing person of the world, Lynn McCracken. Lynn and I
met in the Integrated Psychiatry Institute's psychologist a therapy program.
Literally maybe spent a total of thirty minutes together on
screen in different small groups, but had this connection of
different ideas and she shared a story which ironically we
(01:04):
didn't even get to in the podcast because we had
so many other things to talk about. But she shared
a story in small group once that I said, Hey,
we need to get together and share this with my audience,
and we will do that again in the future because,
as you'll hear in today's podcast, a lot of great ideas, enneagram, psychedelia, guitars,
(01:24):
such a cool comedy, and Lynn fits them all together
in a really amazing and therapeutic way. So I hope
you enjoy and check in the show notes to find
out more. About Lynn and her work at limocrackn dot
com or in Tune Wellness Center dot I think that's
Colm or she tells you here, but hey, enjoy well,
(01:51):
good morning, Lynn.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Thank you so much for taking the time to be
on the Meaning Project podcast.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
You know, I was.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
I used to think I was a busy person, and
then I looked at your multiple websites and singer, songwriter, therapist,
psychedelic therapist, author, starter of a movement, like, oh my goodness,
that's awesome, so much cool stuff on your websites. But
(02:24):
I didn't want to start, you know. You and I
talked about the question like where amongst all of this,
where do you find meaning in purpose?
Speaker 3 (02:32):
Mm? You know I me personally? Are you asking me personally?
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Absolutely?
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Yes? Meaning and purpose I find it in. Well, what
I've realized there are lots of my own personal work,
is that it's in the moment, and it's in being
engaged in this moment with whomever you happen to be
(03:06):
sitting with, or if you're in nature or whatever you
find yourself in this space, this is where joy. The
only place that joy happens is in this moment. And
so meaning is really about being engaged with all of
your senses and connected to your own essence and not
(03:29):
being driven crazy by your ego, which is what you know.
I help people to do is to recognize that voice
inside your head that makes you time travel either to
the future with anxiety or even anticipation excitement, which is
the habit of my personality, is to try to escape
(03:51):
pain today by thinking about all the exciting possibilities in
the future. I use enneagram in my work and that's
that's where I finally was able to get in contact
with This is the only way to find meaning is
in this moment right now, even if it contains things
(04:14):
that are painful. Yeah, that's really meaning.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Yeah, that's just you know, beautiful right in the moments,
which many of us struggle with today with all of
our technology and everything else. Being mindful and meaningful in
the moment is really hard. And I love the statement
you made, like it's who you're with right now, right
(04:40):
we are wired for connection and when we get these
conversations going and we kind of feel in the flow
of connection, yeah, it's it really can be meaningful. Yeah, now,
I almost I know as a as a male therapist,
I'm not allowed to ask this question, so I'm not
going to ask how old you are? A I'm going
(05:00):
to ask are you old enough to remember pee Wee's Playhouse?
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Yes? And also I don't mind saying how old I
am because a lot of like my story actually revolves
around these like milestone birthdays and having these like this
is I want to do this before I'm forty, or
I want to do this before I'm fifty. So I've
had a big milestone this in this last year where
I turned fifty and I do remember pee Wee's Playhouse.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
Excellent.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
Well, congratulations, welcome to the club myself.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
Are you going to do the dance? Are you going
to be? Like?
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Well, here's the thing I remember. What occurred to me
is is the magic word. Every time on Pee Wee's
Playhouse where they all, the magic word will come out
and everybody would just lose their mind.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
And scream.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
On the meaning Project Enneagraham is always the magic word
that I feel like everybody should do well and not
for good reasons, right for me, because so many people
love it. One of my former co hosts, the beloved
Rabbi b is an enneagram guru. Most people love the
enneagram here and I'm a Myers Briggs guy.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
Really tough. Yeah, can you tell me why am I
allowed to give you an interview questions? Oh?
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Absolutely absolutely, because I think it was during COVID. I
was like, well, I got nothing better to do, so
I'm gonna sign up for this intensive Myers Briggs training.
And I spent like forty hours in a week on
a zoom screen learn about the NP, and I just
it always resonated with me. It's scientific, you know, it
(06:39):
comes from union archetypes used and you know we started
formulating in World War two for selection. Like, I get
that there's hard science behind it, and when I dive
into the enneagram, I just I can't get it. It
doesn't resonate with me.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
Really.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
You can rattle off E, N TJ is TP right
now and I'm like, okay, yeah, I get that.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
I understand that.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
You say I'm an Enneagram's free and like I literally
have to go grab a book and be like what
that needed?
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Oh yeah, yeah, So.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
I'm an NFP And I also was trained in Myers
Briggs and I'm a geek when it comes to all
of the personality assessments. I also did disc training. And
so the reason I love enneagram as opposed to Myers
Briggs is that it goes deeper. It's a spiritual growth tool.
(07:32):
It was developed two thousand years ago by the Sufis,
and it still holds true. And also when you line
it up, it will line up with the scientific stuff
that they've developed, like like Myers Briggs, so it actually
stands the test of time. And so it's like the
Myers Briggs proved that the enneagram is right when you
actually look at them and compare them and lay them
(07:54):
on top of each other. But the thing I love
about niagram is yeah, so I use my my practice
is called Intune Wellness Center. And when I talk to
my clients about the concept of this is it's like, so,
since you play guitar, I think you'll get this when
(08:18):
so there's two e's right, there's the there's the little
tiny thin E which I line up with emotions. So,
like we're taught as therapists, we really are concerned about
tuning into people's emotions, right and so, and we get
trained on on learning about emotions so and then b
as next. So we learn about people's beliefs and their
(08:41):
thoughts and we help them challenge those thoughts and investigate
them and and and change the ones that that might
be distorted. Right. And then the next one is is
G we help people develop goals. Right, And so I
sort of feel like that's as far as we got trained,
like half of the strength. And then when when I
(09:05):
go to D, I say, that's your default archetype or
your Enneagram number or your Myers brigs, whatever personality typing
system that you are using. If you don't know what
your default type is and what happens when you're under
stress and you go into when you're in stress, you're
(09:29):
your autopilot just kicks on. My dog is trying to
be a part of this.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
Excellent.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
It is upstairs right now, barking. So it's okay, well
you welcome dogs on the podcast.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
Yeah, So the D is your default And if you
don't know what your default personality is, what you do
when when you get in stress and you just go
into this like your you're sleepwalking, You're just acting out
of your automatic ways of being. If you don't know
what that is, then how can you actually catch yourself?
So the reason so I'm going to keep going. So
(10:02):
there's D and then what comes next? A hey, right,
So I do archetypal coaching, and so after I help
people learn about what their default archetype is, then we
learn about all of the archetypes that are available to us.
That might be we might have put them off stage
(10:22):
at a young age and we don't have as much
access to it, but we can activate that in our body,
like really activate whatever energy that we need for the
challenge that's in front of us. So if we can
slow down our automatic way of reacting, then we can choose.
(10:44):
We have a whole menu like of all of these
other things. And the reason I don't just use enneagram
for the archetype, which they are all our archetypes, so
and you're into that obviously, is it's easier to remember
the archetypes than it is to remember numbers. Like you said,
I have to go look at you were like, I
have to go look at a book. That's because nobody
(11:05):
remembers numbers, but we remember these characters, right, And so
so then I teach them about that so they know
what choices and then the the big fixed string that
e that's your essence, and your essence is that thing
that we can't describe, right, that's your spirit, that's the
(11:26):
thing that calls to you about your purpose and meaning.
And that's the part we did get disconnected from when
we're listening to the noise of our ego constantly and
we don't even know that we have a choice. And
so people come in and they're they're like, why are
(11:48):
you asking me about what lights you up or what
brings you meaning? And that's that's the the question that
we started with, is you know, what does that have
to do with my anxiety or depression? Has everything to
do with your anxiety depression because you're disconnected from your
essential self. You're that child that before you were conditioned,
(12:10):
before someone told you that you weren't good at singing
or or drawing. You know, when you decided you had
to be a quote unquote grown up and you you
abandon your your dreams. You're the things that that made
you feel like human.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Wow, Like I'm I did not dive this far into
your uh, your intune wellness and that I mean, that's beautiful,
that's amazing.
Speaker 1 (12:43):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
For those that aren't familiar with the guitar, right, Okay,
so here's here's my reminder of the of the of
the strings. And I wish I could remember where I
got this from, but it goes Eddie eight dynamite, Good
bye Eddie, right, or Eddie ate dinner, Good boy Eddie.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
But here's the problem. What you just described took me
five years, and a guitar teacher would be like, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
It's from the bottom of the guitar up and not
the top of the guitar down. And most of you
out there, it's not the thick chord to the thin chord.
It's the thin chord up to the thick chord that
you just use. And what a oh my goodness, that's
just it's beautiful, what a model.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
Yeah, it makes me kind of crazy when I think
about how much time I spent even as a therapist,
because we're not taught to really get deeper than that, right,
because we're just taught to look at the look at
the at the science based stuff. And so Western medicine
has really, I think, in a lot of ways, failed
(13:46):
to help people find the type of healing that that
we long for by trying to just numb the symptoms.
And so that's when I when I use the guitar
also as a metaphor or just tell clients like, you're
not broke broken, you're just out of tune. So we
have to figure out which string, or maybe all the
(14:08):
strings they're just a little bit out of tune and
they just need a little bit of adjustment. It might
just be a tiny bit, but if just one string
is out of tune, then the chord sounds like crap.
And so it doesn't mean you're broke. But our western
medicine system basically treats us like you have a symptom.
So let me give you a diagnosis, which is saying
(14:30):
you're broken or that symptom is something that's going wrong,
and let me give you medicine to numb out that
symptom that you're having. And I say, how about slow
down and listen to what and be curious about what
is that symptom showing up for. What is it telling
you that maybe needs just a little bit of an adjustment.
(14:54):
And it usually starts pretty quiet, it whispers to you,
and that's you know, your essence. Is that interhaling wisdom
that we learned about in our psychedelic assisted therapy program,
is this interhaling wisdom really has so like it wants
(15:18):
us to flourish and to grow and to bear fruit,
and so that we can share it with others because
we need one another, and we you know, the indigenous
people knew and the Sufis knew so much more. Then
this is why I don't. This is why I have
(15:39):
become more interested in the older stuff that might not
be quote unquote science based, because I feel like that
perennial wisdom that keeps showing up in cultures throughout time
has so much to show us, especially here in Western culture.
Because of the way that we approach things, I feel
(15:59):
like it's only those those bottom strengths. What are you know,
what emotions are you having? What you know disturbances, what
symptoms are you having? And you know it must be
it's something that's wrong with you. Instead of teaching people
to go like, maybe there's something wrong with my routine.
(16:23):
Maybe my body needs more sleep, maybe I need to
move my body. Maybe I am isolating and not connecting
with the people that love me, and I'm stuck in
my head and I'm in the dangerous neighborhood that I
shouldn't go to alone in my head and I'm spinning,
And so anyway, I think I just look look at
(16:45):
things a lot differently than I did in the beginning
when I first became a therapist and I was trying
so hard to do you know what. We were taught
to look at symptoms and diagnoses and and help heal people.
But really people have the ability to heal within themselves,
(17:05):
but they don't even know they can tune into this
deeper part of them that has wisdom and knows what
they need.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
I look when longtime listeners of the podcast are sitting there, going, oh,
my goodness, these two have obviously worked together every day
for the past year, right, because like so much of
what you say is resonating with my practice, my work,
how I help people, and what I've said here for years.
(17:35):
And it's ironic, like literally, you and I what spent
thirty minutes together, spread across two different small groups, right,
But there was something in those conversations like, Okay, we
totally need to talk and share this with people. So
many things you said, like a yeah, I've been saying
this a lot, especially this year. It really has occurred
to me our not just Western medicine, but our way
(17:58):
of training therapists really is just those three strings, right,
help people identify emotions because, according to Western therapist training,
other humans are not as resourceful or intelligent enough to
know their own emotions, and so we have to help
them identify them and then fix them and do that
all in eight to twelve sessions or less, where insurance
(18:19):
will say no. And then this is the word that
I don't know if you learned this word in grad school,
but you know they taught us what happens when you're
done seeing a client after eight to twelve sessions, Well,
then you terminate them.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
You terminate the relationship.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
And it's just like, oh my god, that twenty five
years ago that didn't resonate, but today it's like, I
love that model you're sharing.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
Like you're not broken, you're out of tune. And even
if we use the guitar and metaphor again, even if
one of your strings is broken, we have all kinds
of other ones that we can replace it with. We
have great resources. We can put you back into tune.
You can tune.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
Yourself and oh, I'm going to take this metaphor farther
land and you can use this if you need to.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Right like.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
When when we're we can we can teach you so
many more strings. And eventually, if when you practice this,
like I started, I had a guitar tuner on my phone,
and then I had like one of the clip on ones.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
And now I've learned over time and practice, I can
do it myself with my yeah, just listening and people
right not you know, we've learned this. In our psychedelic
training logo Therapy, Victor Frankel talks about this. We don't
become broken, right, our spirits become clouded, right, we lose
touch with ourselves and with others. But eventually, when we
(19:37):
practice these things, we can put ourselves back into tune.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
Right, and you can catch it really early, really quickly,
before you feel like it's you're just completely discombobulated. Like
I have friends that are playing on stage and they'll
be in the middle of a song, and I can't
do this as a as a musician, but I am
(20:01):
always in awe, like they'll be literally performing a song. Da.
I don't know if you've ever seen this happen before,
but no one even knows they're playing. They're they're continuing
to play, and they just reach up and they in
the middle of a song. They keep going and I'm like,
I feel like that that would be amazing. That's my goal,
and that's my goal is to teach people how to notice,
(20:23):
like in the moment with another human if they're having
a moment where their ego takes over and it's super predictable.
Because that's the other thing I love about enneagram is
that it tells you exactly. I mean, it's it dictates
everything you think, feel, and do, and it's the motivation
of everything you think, feel and do. And when you're
(20:44):
in that place where where your ego takes over, which
happens when we're in stress, that's just that's kind of amazing.
It just it takes over for us. So thanks autopilot.
But then our gifts become are you know, kryptom night
when we continue down that path, but we feel really
(21:05):
self justified in it, and so we continue down that path.
And I always I warn my clients before we even
go down the path. I say, do you like you're
coming to me because you have something going on in
your life right now? You're in pain, and then you
want the pain to go away. That's why people come
to counseling, right something is really difficult, And so that
(21:30):
tells me already you're in that auto pilot violot place,
and I say, do you I want to give you
a tool that you can use long after our time together,
those age of twelve sessions that you're talking about. I
don't want to terminate you. I want to give you
a tool that you can use to help notice when
you're out of tune. And also I want to warn
(21:54):
you that once you see it, you can't unsee it.
So if I if we go to on this path
where you're learning about this default and you learn and
this is this is really the bottom line of what
I tell my clients about what I love about Anagram
compared to Myers Briggs, and I specifically will say it.
So I'm sorry if I'm contradicting you, but I say,
(22:15):
the thing I love about Aneagram over all the other
types is it really shows you, verbatim what your crazy
looks like. And the whole all nine all nine of
those in the unhealthiest version is the whole DSM. And
(22:39):
so that's what made me go, are you kidding me? Like, uh,
all of these diagnoses are just if you know what
your default personality type is, then you actually know what
in your most unhealthy state, what diagnoses you are prone
to developing. It's so predictable, like it's ridiculis sleep predictable
(23:01):
And so if you know what you're crazy, looks like,
sounds like, acts like all of that. Once you know that,
you can't unsee it and then feel self justified it
anymore because you okay, you're like, oh crap, there goes
my personality again taking over. Like I'm a seven on
the enneagram. So what sevens do? And it sounds really shallow,
(23:22):
especially for a therapist, So it's embarrassing sharing this, but
seven's the motivation of a seven is to have fun
and avoid pain. Seven superpower is reframing things that are
painful and thoughts that that are that hurt, reframing it
(23:43):
to the positive. So of course when I learned CBT,
I mean that's my superpower. I can reframe something before
any pain even gets close to me. I can reframe it,
I can go My difficult childhood was such a benefit
to me. It makes me better therapist because I know
what it's like to go through all sorts of toxic things.
(24:04):
I'm so grateful I grew up in a really toxic
alcoholic family system, and I can stay it with a
smile on my face and also believe it because even
like just do that, like pain's coming my way, I
can like boom, I'm just going to reframe that.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Yeah, and that's that I mean is totally what we're
taught in cognitive behavioral therapy, right, like just reframing everything,
like doing the Jedi mind trick, Like no, no, these
are not the thoughts you're looking for, like change them
to different thoughts.
Speaker 3 (24:33):
Great tool to have, but your only tool. It's you're
going to come crashing down, Like it's it's gonna take
you down, because your feelings will get stored in your
body and then you know, become an autoimmune disease or something,
and it will be like listen to me, listen to me,
listen to me. You actually need to tend to this.
(24:56):
And so with anygram, what you have, uh, it's the
feeling and doing are the centers of intelligence. And each
of the types have a dominant one and a repressed one,
and so this determines the goals once you know what
someone's enneagram type is. So I'll use me, for example,
thinking dominant. So it's like three legs to the school.
(25:19):
It's like overgrown the thinking. So I'm thinking and doing
and thinking and doing and thinking and doing constantly to
avoid feeling, which is repressed at a young age. And
so the goal, if I was working with me, would
be catch yourself in the thinking when you get into
that hyperactive thinking, especially about the future and all the
(25:41):
exciting possibilities, because that means your personality is taken over
to help you avoid something painful. And so first you
have to recognize that slow down, and then you have
to go what is the painful thing I'm trying to
avoid so that you can grow what's pressed. But you
have to consciously go. And so my songwriting, I thought
(26:05):
it was about expressing my feelings. I really thought that
before I learned Enneagram and what I learned through doing
this work, and really, I mean there's a lot of
contemplative practice involved where you have to really slow down
and check in consciously every day. What I learned is
(26:25):
is that during this time, I got a phone call
that a friend of mine passed away in a car accident,
and I watched myself. I observed myself do this on
the phone. When I'm getting this news, I'm like, my God,
what are you thinking? God? What are you thinking? Like,
I'm just like and then I hung up the phone
and I immediately started writing a song. My god, what
(26:49):
are you thinking? It seems like the ship is sinking
and I don't know if I can float. So that
started coming into my head, and so then I pick
up my guitar and I'm like, my god, what are
you thinking? And I'm like, I'm writing. And then I go, oh,
my god, I know I know what I'm doing right now.
(27:12):
This is not expressing my feelings. This was the fastest
way for me to shift into thinking and doing by
coming up with the line, then looking for rhyming words
and other lines, and then picking up my guitar so
that I could do something that I that I love
(27:32):
that lights me up. And then I have completely avoided
because now I've shifted. I'm writing words that have to
do with feelings, but I am thinking and doing. I'm
not feeling anymore. And so then I had to make
myself because this is this is the thing. I go, oh,
you can't unsee it, and then you have to actually
(27:53):
pay attention to it. You can't use it anymore, like
you're blanky to cope in that way, And so I
was like, I got to go lay with my dog
and cry because I lost my friend, and it's okay
in this moment. I won't be held down in pain forever.
That's Seven's biggest fear. If I allow the pain, if
(28:17):
I really allow the pain, then I might be held
down in pay forever and not make it back to
the light. Is the lie of the Seven's personality.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
I know this was not the intention of today's conversation,
but I'm sould land. All right, where do I go?
What do I read?
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Because I know if what.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
I've read talk to you about your Enneagram number, we'll
we'll have to do another podcast later.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
Oh no, we're gonna I've already got it into mind.
We're gonna get there. We're going to see right again.
All the long time listeners are like, oh, I can't
wait to hear what she has to say about that
crazy personality. So so many things against so many things, resonating.
That's one of my favorite things to tell clients when
they're like, oh my god, but what if I go
back to the way things once more? And I'm like,
you can't. We've completely ruined that right. Once the genie's
(29:06):
out of the bottle. Once Pandora's box is open, you
can't go back to the same way of functioning. So
it's like, what skills can you use, here's the whole
set of them, Which ones are gonna work for you?
What tools and the toolbox are going to help you
so that you don't go back? And I love how
you've described Oh my goodness, this is gonna blow people's minds, right,
Like I like how you use the enneagram to kind
(29:29):
of describe that and what those tools are and how
you made that happen. It's going back to that idea,
right of whether it's whether you've come to understand yourself
with the anagram or the Meyers Briggs or any other assessment.
When we are stressed, when we struggle, we go back
to our strengths and sometimes they express themselves really negatively.
Speaker 1 (29:55):
And I can.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Imagine how my anagram does that. And as you said,
you called that the default a lot, and that's a
lot of what we talked about in psychedelic school is
how do we shut down that default mode.
Speaker 1 (30:10):
Network right and learn?
Speaker 2 (30:14):
And like now you're connecting that with like, yeah, you
just you know, have academene experience or eat a few
mushrooms and have a sitter integrate that with you, and
then all of a sudden, your default mode networks off
and you can learn so many things going into this
conversation that just work so well. Yeah, you've put it
(30:34):
all together in a guitar metaphor, which I love.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
Sorry, That's what made me so excited about when I
first started learning about the research about psychedelics and about
how they actually identified that part of the brain, that
self referential part of the brain and your and they
called it your default mode network, and I went, oh, wow,
I've already known this. This is the work I've been
(30:57):
doing with clients. I'm like work trying to become aware
of that that default way of thinking that takes over.
I call it like the tyranny of of your of
your personality, Like when that part of you takes over
and it tells you those really familiar stories and it's
(31:19):
driven by that really familiar fear that is actually unfounded.
If you are able to slow down and observe it
and go, oh, that's sweet of you, personality, like you're
trying to protect me. Thanks, thank you. Also, it's okay
for me to cry. I'm not going to be held
down in pain forever. Sorry, like I'm really not so awesome.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
And when you know, when you said tyranny, that really
reminded me. I can't maybe remember whose theory this is
or who came up with this, but that idea, the
tyranny of the shoulds. Right, how often we engage and
that like I should be this, I should do that,
I should have done this, And it's like no, no, no, a.
Where do all these shoulds come from?
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Right?
Speaker 2 (31:59):
Who voice is that in your head?
Speaker 1 (32:01):
And be you?
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Just you can stop shooting all over yourself whenever you want.
Speaker 3 (32:06):
My clients always, uh you know when they a lot
of times when they end up coming back after you know,
they fix their problem and then they have another issue
and then they they call and they go I still
hear your voice in my head every time I say
should do myself about about myself or about someone else,
I just hear you in my head going like, oh
there you go. You're shooting on yourself again or you're
(32:28):
shooting on others. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
I've had to apologize that for many times with that quote,
like what if I go back and like, I'm sorry,
we have ruined that.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
And if you start to slip. You are going to
see this bald head and hear this voice and it's
it's over. And they're like, thought a book. Oh my goodness,
you're right, it does happen. So but that's that's also
a beautiful thing too, which goes against Western therapists training
that idea of when people come back.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
I love equating that with the Hero's Journey. It doesn't
mean you're broken or your guitar string is broken, or
you're out of tune again. It means life's changed. You know,
the only constant in life has changed, and you know,
different transitions in life, going from high school to college,
to marriage, to employment, to old age to all these things. Right, Like,
(33:15):
each step has an opportunity to seek a mentor, as
as Joseph Campbell tells us in The Hero's Journey, right like,
every good hero has a mentor. It's okay if that
mentor is a therapist and you come back, they're like, no, no,
you're shooting again.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
It's okay to.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Stop or whatever.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
That guidance might be so different than the medical model
of okay, you get eight sessions, you're fixed, hallelujah, and
get out and don't come back. No, it's good to
have somebody that you can connect with and continue to
go back.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
Yes, all right, so.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
You wanna you wanna, Let's let's go ahead and put
this on display. I have heard now this is going
to be confusing again to some people have listened for
a while because a former occasional co host said I
was an eight. But then now he has changed that
because I think he saw a little bit of himself
and me too much and was maybe over identifying. We'll
(34:09):
have to come back to that because for a long time,
most of the most of my peers and therapists around
me said, I'm a one.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
Really, Oh oh okay, that's a scary reaction.
Speaker 3 (34:22):
No, I'm I'm just a lot of times eight or
misidentified sixes and eights are misidentified as each other. So
that was my like ones and eights. I mean, I
can see it. So do you know the motivation of
each of those or do you know the name? So
(34:42):
the boss is eight, and the motivation of evan eight.
It seems to others as if an eight wants to
be in control, but actually the motivation is to not
be controlled by others. Ones want they're the prof afectionists,
so they want to do the right thing, and it
(35:04):
feels like so seven's go to one in stress. So
I know what it feels like to go to one.
And I can't even imagine living in that place always
because that inner critic is so loud and mean, and
if anything is imperfect at all, the one's motivation is
(35:28):
to be perfect, so to perfect themselves, and it's and
also if that's not enough, because that's a full time job,
right for us to perfect ourselves, but also to perfect
everything else around them that's not perfect, and so that
that critical voice inside is just like constantly like telling
(35:50):
them what to do. But you know if you are
a one, because you're doing a lot of this, so
it seems like maybe it sounds familiar. So here's a test.
They say that this is a lot of my a
lot of my clients and also some of the Enneagram people.
I keep hearing this over and over again. So you
(36:12):
tell me if this is true, and I can maybe,
like you could go get your daughter or your wife
and we could ask her. When you go on vacation,
are you like the life of the party. You have
so much fun, You're a completely different person. You're not
making your to do list because you can't do it
because you're not at home.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
No, I'm usually to doing I'm making sure everybody's having it.
Maybe there's a combo there. I'm making sure every's having
a good time. We have plenty of things to do,
and we're going to go see amazing things.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
You're still to doing it. Oh yeah, we need to.
We need to have more conversations about this because ones
have a hard time letting loose. M.
Speaker 2 (36:52):
So here's the interesting thing. It depends on who I'm with. Uh,
you know, when we go with other couples, there's there's
a few good friends who even do more planning than
I do.
Speaker 1 (37:01):
And I'm just like sweet to just kind of follow along.
And if it's with my family, if it's with the girls,
my wife or the dog. Like I'm putting together lists
months ahead of time. I'm like, all right, what would
you guys like to do? Let's go, you know, plan
this that day. Oh, totally planning the hell out of it.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
So I would encourage you one, I'd encourage you to
take the test. I don't even want to make guesses,
but I heard I have a third guest theory of
what number you are just based on people that are
closest to me that that are you like just described
at all. And it's so right. Ones are very black
(37:42):
and white too, so it's hard for me to think
that you doing what you do with this like really
deep work the meaning. I'm not saying ones can't be deep,
by the way, but I think that you're so drawn
to this the idea of meaning, which which is a
very non dualistic way of thinking, and ones are are
(38:06):
very black and white, and so they can be drawn
to things that are. And maybe that explains why you
like the Myers Briggs more than Enneagraham. I don't know,
could be, but I I think that kind of the
(38:26):
more esoteric stuff usually is not something that a one
would be as drawn to because you want to like
like ones, want to fit it in into like right
or wrong categor So.
Speaker 1 (38:40):
Okay, So this is one of my arguments with the
enneagram is well, it might be this might be that
like to observe yourself.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
I can't. So that's the all right, fair enough, fair enough,
I say to my clients, Look, here's the deal. Those
tests are only to narrow it down to your top three.
That's why it gives you extensive and information on your
top three. And here's what I tell my clients. Look,
number one, we know you're in your stress number right
now because you're coming to counseling. So your stress number
(39:10):
because you go to a different number and stress, and that.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
Reminds me like it does come in threes, right, there's
kind of a related priangle.
Speaker 3 (39:16):
Okay, So I'm like, your stress number is going to
probably show up in your top three. That doesn't mean
it's the motivation of your whole personality. So one would
show up in my top three if I'm going to counseling,
but that's not what motivates my personality. That's where I
go in stress, and so I go to a complete opposite.
And that's what's so amazing about it too, because I
(39:38):
actually need to go to one so I can make
lists and get stuff done. So we need our stress number,
but we need to go to the optimal range, the
healthy side of our stress number. And if we don't
know better, then when we're in an autopilot, we automatically
tend towards the unhealthy side of that number. And so
(39:58):
that's when the self critical voice starts, you know, going
like if you're not perfect, when you're performing, then you
should just stop. Are you doing this?
Speaker 1 (40:07):
Like?
Speaker 3 (40:07):
Yeah? Okay?
Speaker 1 (40:09):
So where for the listeners interested out there as well
as for myself, where would be a good place to
Where's a good accurate version of the test.
Speaker 3 (40:16):
So the Enneagram Institute is the number one. There's lots
of free tests out there. The reason I like the
Enneagram Institute is they they they do really incredible testing
and education of people, and there's lots of information and
(40:38):
they also have a they have the variance. I don't Yeah,
I don't want to get like it's it's super complicated
when I start talking about but there's two different tests
that you can take. It gives you a like a
more clear picture too, because you know, just like there's
lots of different shades of every color. One, you know,
(40:58):
person who's the one is going to look different than
a different person that's one, and a lot of that
has to do with that, the variance and stuff like that.
So the Anagram Institute dot org is really great for that.
And I also I like the Anya app. That app
has a lot of really good information. If you're wanting
(41:19):
something held in your hand so that you can refer
to it because you have a hard time, you know,
keeping track of it. That's really good. And then there's
a book called ah well, there's several different books. But
and why am I blinking out on the Wisdom of
the Anagram is what it's called. Also Richard anything like
(41:42):
Richard Rhor also writes a lot about the anagram, and
I love Richard Rhor. The Wisdom of the Aneagram gives
a lot of diagrams about kind of I like. I
like diagrams and kind of like shows kind of what's
under the surface and what you see on top of
free each of the types and how it develops in
(42:02):
childhood and gives you a lot more information.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
Well, then now that IPI, you know, our psychedelic school
is over, I'm always looking for something new to study,
so I'm feeling it'll.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
Be going way.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
Yeah, so let's let's there's a clunky transition there. Let's
transition into a little bit about Well, I'm kind of curious.
It's not a transition, it's related. How does psychedelic work
coincide with all this, interact with all this? I mean,
what have you taken out of our time together at IPI.
Speaker 3 (42:31):
Yeah. The thing that I love about it is because
this medicine, whether it be the ketamine or psilocybin in
Texas that I can only I'm I do ketamine assist
a psychotherapy because that's all.
Speaker 1 (42:47):
Still hear the rumor, has it you guys, have I
have a gain on the docket? Is that correct?
Speaker 3 (42:54):
I have not heard that yet. Okay, But also I
don't I know very little about IVY game, just what
we learned in our in our study. I haven't personally
experienced IVY game. It feels a little bit, have you.
I have not, but it feels a little scary to me. Honestly,
I'm like, oh, like the stuff that we did learn
(43:16):
feels well, I'm a seven, so it feels like a
lot of suffering. It feels like, oh, like the depths
like you we learned from the Veterans program, Like right,
it feels.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
Like, wow that there's a part of me that I'm like,
I don't know if I'm going to be when they
talk about a what was it seven or eight hour journey?
Speaker 1 (43:41):
Yeah, a psilocybin was it? Now?
Speaker 2 (43:44):
I love everybody. I love my psilocybin journey. I loved
everything about it. I love the preparation, the integration. I
just got off the call with my my sitter in Greece. Right,
He's like everything about it was lucky my group. We
all stay in touch. I don't know if I want to.
Speaker 3 (44:04):
I have my sitch day.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
Oh because for your doing licensure, right.
Speaker 3 (44:09):
I'm going to get licensed in Colorado so I can
do retreats there.
Speaker 2 (44:13):
That's awesome. Oh see, we need to have another conversation
with that. You're not gonna chatting a bit, it seems.
Speaker 3 (44:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:20):
So when it comes at like I've even heard IV
again is on the docket for Indiana as well, we're
looking at psilocybin reform in our state for therapeutic use.
I don't know if I would because again what we've
heard is it's intense, it's very therapeutic. I just don't
know if you want to go there now. On the
other hand, the other part of what we heard about
with IB again is its use with d MT and
(44:45):
dimethyl triplene.
Speaker 3 (44:46):
Is that correct?
Speaker 2 (44:46):
I get that one right, very good distilled from poison toad,
poison skin slime.
Speaker 3 (44:55):
Right, Like have to make sure that you ask if
if they were treated you Mainly they're milked.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
I was like milk milking toads in the American Southwest.
Speaker 1 (45:08):
That's well.
Speaker 2 (45:10):
And I brought this up a few times. I used
to work in adolescent substance abuse twenty twenty five years ago,
and that was one of the things back in the
early two thousands, all these kids were like part of
the treatment was they had to come up with their
drug list and it almost became like a badgecuragon, like, oh, yeah,
I've done DMT, And back then I really didn't know
what DMT was. Now that I've heard about it today.
Speaker 1 (45:27):
I'm like, oh, you are so full of it. There
is no way you had access to DMT back then.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
But you know, DMT is available in other sources. That
is the primary way we're getting it. But you know,
they call it the God molecule because it taps into
something inherent in our spirituality and it's brief, intense.
Speaker 3 (45:49):
I'm very interested in that.
Speaker 1 (45:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (45:51):
See, as a seven, even my personality determines which drugs
I like. I became that sounds suffering the God molecule
and you gets to an experience right with God instantly.
Speaker 2 (46:07):
Yes, you're high five in the Holy Spirit for fifteen
minutes and you're back to normal, right, and you feel
much better about life. So it will be it will
be interesting to see if that comes around. But oh
my goodness, we went to oh yeah because of our
last bit of training was all about ivy gains, where
so you're bringing ketamine into your uh.
Speaker 3 (46:29):
Intune therapy in session with clients now through Journey Clinical,
so they are the fiber Oh yep, yeah, And I'm
really after our experience with IPI, I just keep hearing
over and over again the reminder that that healing happens
(46:53):
in community, and I so am on fire about doing
this in groups that I've been kind of obsessed for
the last month looking for spaces that would be conducive
to recreating my whole business plan around offering groups because
(47:18):
I see these really powerful things happening one on one
with my clients and I so I've been feeling this
way though for probably ten years, like if I could
just introduce my three o'clock to my one o'clock, both
of their lives would be so much better. But I can't.
So if I could do more groups, and we should
(47:39):
also talk more about this offline, about just the idea
of kind of how to structure it, but the way
that Journey clinical does it. They send you to you
know this, but I'm saying this for your audience. They
send you to sessions worth of medicine. And so my
idea is, Okay, we'll do those verse two one on
(48:01):
one so you can get comfortable and we know how
you react. But then after that we're going to go
to a group, because that's where healing happens. Even if
it's something that you feel like, oh no, I don't
want I don't want to be imperfect or a mess
around other people, right, which is what often would hold
(48:22):
us back.
Speaker 1 (48:23):
Yeah, but that's that's the beauty of the group. Yep,
that's the beauty of the group.
Speaker 3 (48:27):
Not alone, everybody mess. And that's the other thing about
enneagram is that it's a great equalizer because all of
us are all of us are crazy. It's just what
kind of crazy? What what brando crazy? Are you? And
if you don't even know, how can you take it?
You turn back to being healthy and so in a
group you can you can actually see that and connect
(48:50):
with your humanity and realize that you're not alone in
feeling like you're a mess, and that we're all making
it up as we go along. No one has their
shit together.
Speaker 2 (49:01):
Yep, that's again because of the powerful healing of the kedemy.
I'm still in touch with the group. I went to
Colorado with we still and when I got back from Colorado,
I did my my Kedmaine retreat back in November. November,
that sounds about right. I came back so on fire
with the power of that helium. I'm like, I got
to share this, and I just shared with the therapist
I'm in touch with, and by January we had six
(49:23):
people ready to go. We did a beautiful group in
this local environment that had beautiful outside scenier and everything,
and we did lunch together and then some integration. It
was so awesome. Now, I find it interesting that you
would go journey. I work with wonderful woman Julie Attis,
(49:46):
who's been on the podcast before, with a group called
Ketamine is Hope here in my area, and she she
comes in and does dosing for me. She does I
Am Right, which works beautifully because you know, she comes
in and she does Wait. It's fast acting and people
go into their journeys really rapidly. Have you done much
work with with journeys medicine.
Speaker 3 (50:07):
Yet with journey clinical Uh huh? Oh, yes, with the
with the lingual yes.
Speaker 1 (50:14):
Can you imagine now when it's one on one in
my office right, there's a lot of swishing and spitting,
and I have to dispose it like I'm not sure
how I feel about doing swishing and spitting and throwing
away a dozen.
Speaker 3 (50:26):
Oh so we did. So I've done two groups really yeah,
with another Journey clinical therapist that's your local and we
actually met on the Journey Clinical portal doing the peer
to peer thing, and I, because we're in Texas, people
are tend to be more conservative here, and so I
was very on fire about wanting to I'm a supervisor,
(50:49):
wanting to teach therapists and give them an actual experience
with Kennymine so that they can when their clients are
asking them about it, they will be informed and having
an experience and know how to talk to them about
it instead of going, oh no, that's you know. One
of the things I heard early on when I started
looking into psychedelic therapy and I had some reservations too,
(51:14):
was you know, if if as a therapist you're concerned
about doing medication assisted therapy, how many of your clients
are on psychotropic medications? You are already doing medicationist is
a therapy, except the medication is doing the opposite. It's
tamping down the symptoms and numbing them out, and this
(51:35):
medicine brings out what you need to work on. And
so so that's what I'm trying to do with this
other therapist in providing groups and an experience to educate
other therapists about this. So we did it twice, and
you know, they had their own cups. We have you know,
(51:58):
I have a system. They have their own cups and
with clean X in it, and so they you know,
we time it and they spit in their own cups
and then I bring a trash can around and they
can throw that away and I give them at like
grape flavored usually because it's kind of a stronger flavored
gatorade to swish in their mouth afterwards to get that
taste out. And then they just throw those away and
(52:20):
then lay down on their mats and have a wonderful journey.
And then we do the integration and creativity and lunch,
and we do the sound bass and yoga and stuff
like that ahead of time for preparation.
Speaker 2 (52:34):
What kind of sound bath I just did one last week?
Speaker 1 (52:37):
What do you do.
Speaker 3 (52:38):
So Luckily my cotherapist is she's she has the big gongs.
And then we actually also hired an intern to come
in who does the crystal sound bowls, so we had both.
We had the gongs on one side of the room
and the crystal sound balls on the other side, and
(52:59):
so we had a little bit of both, which was
amazing awesome.
Speaker 2 (53:03):
I just found a place last week that had the
crystal chakra bowls and I put it on our family
calendar and my wife's like, what in the sand? What
are you doing? I'm like, oh, yeah, this is It's
like that is such a hippie woo thing. She uses
other language. And my daughter's like, oh dad, yeah, let's go.
I'm going to bring my co worker and bring yeah,
(53:25):
bring the woo woo to me.
Speaker 1 (53:26):
And uh yeah. We had we had a blast.
Speaker 2 (53:28):
It was a great time and we'll go back and like,
there's a part of me that wants to drop a
couple thousand dollars on crystal bowls, but I think this
training is enough right now. So that's I love the
sound healing stuff with. Now the enneagram, I think that's
the next area of study for me. Where is it
where are you located in Texas where you're doing this
(53:48):
amazing work.
Speaker 3 (53:49):
I am in Plano, Texas, which is a suburb of Dallas.
So it's just it's about fifteen minutes from when there's
no traffic at Dallas, but you know there's traffic.
Speaker 2 (54:02):
I've been to quite a few conferences in Dallas or
we have a conference that's in Addison very often.
Speaker 3 (54:06):
Oh yeah, it's really close to Addison, is it? Okay? Yeah,
as are right butt up against each other.
Speaker 1 (54:13):
Oh o kid, okay, So yeah.
Speaker 2 (54:15):
There have been times it's taken me fifteen minutes from
the airport. There's times it's taken me two hours for
the airport. So love Texas traffic. I'm sure you've got
sessions coming up. I know I do. How can people
we're going to get back together and continue this conversation
that was way too much in too short a time.
But where can people find out more about your amazing work?
Speaker 3 (54:37):
Well? I have, you know, like you checked out, I do.
I have two different websites. My lynnmaccracken dot com is
more geared towards my music, and that one is under
construction right now, but it's in Tune Wellness Center dot
com and so that's I N t U N e
(54:58):
W E l l n an e SS center dot com.
Speaker 2 (55:04):
Make sure that is included in the show notes so
people can just click on the link instead of spell it.
That's so much easier though.
Speaker 3 (55:10):
Way, yes, it's really long. Yeah, I think I'm I'm
actually going to replace that one with the lynnmccracken dot
com just to make it easier and more memorable and
less typing. So, uh, but you know, technology, now that
this program's over, I have time to work on.
Speaker 2 (55:31):
That was I was actually just talking to the gentleman
at Sapho me and so that's the same thing we're
talking about now that the program is over. I don't
know about you. I still have twelve more hours of
supplemental information and then two hundred question tests.
Speaker 3 (55:42):
I did all of the quizzes. I was so excited
because I wanted to be finished that day. I wanted
to feel like I graduated. And then I was like,
where's the final. I don't know where we can take
the final because I want to go take the final.
Speaker 2 (55:55):
Now you haven't taken the somebody in my group's got
their little certificate and everything, so the finals they're somewhere
I think, yeah, you might want to ask our good
friends over at IPS.
Speaker 3 (56:07):
I put it. I put it on the community question board,
like where is it? Where's the final? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (56:14):
Well I still had twelve more hours to go. I
was listening to the what was it the Sustainable Care
of Psilocybin Handling or something like that. That was fascinating,
really fascinating. Yeah, sorry, all right, onward decession to do
all that good work and help people, We're gonna have you.
But I'm going to go take the enneagram quiz and
(56:36):
I will allow you to dissect me live on air
for the.
Speaker 3 (56:40):
Oh that would be so incredible. Okay, So after you
take it, though, here's what you have to do. It's
not necessarily the top one. It's going to give information
about all three and you have to then highlight the
ones that really resonate, but then observe. You'll usually be
able to eliminate one of the three immediately, and then
(57:01):
there will be two and then you're going Then you
have to observe yourself throughout the day, like in the
moment when you feel compelled to act in a certain way,
to react to do something. That's when you go, oh wait,
is this the motivator or is this the motivator between
the two?
Speaker 1 (57:16):
Okay, all right, I'm in I will give it a try.
Speaker 3 (57:20):
Well, you paying attention and observing non judgmentally, just observing yourself.
Speaker 2 (57:25):
That the particle internal voice does not do non judgment
very well on the inside.
Speaker 3 (57:29):
Yeah, you've got to observe yourself. And that's what's different
about It's very hard. If we could test your motivation
and accurately, we wouldn't need our legal system. Right.
Speaker 1 (57:39):
So, such a good point.
Speaker 3 (57:41):
Right, So you have to observe what's motivating me in
order for you to answer the question about what number
you are?
Speaker 2 (57:49):
Okay, and anybody else that wants to join along in
the Shenanigans, check out an institute dot org and you
can play along at home. Is in a future episode
when I sex my personality, I can't using the anagram,
I can't wait.
Speaker 3 (58:04):
I am excited too.
Speaker 1 (58:05):
Yeah all right, Lynn, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (58:07):
It was a pleasure. I can't wait to chat again.
Speaker 3 (58:10):
Yes, absolutely, all right? Bye? Bye?
Speaker 1 (58:14):
Oh well, oh okay, how much fun was that? So
many cool ideas there. I if you couldn't tell from
my enthusiasm, I absolutely love her guitar metaphor probably because
I have guitar lessons later today, or I've been really
(58:34):
working hard on a couple songs. But that was just
I could I could feel the therapeutic value there. So,
and for those of you that are just picking yourself
up off the floor after me here, after hearing me
say I was going to check out the enneagram yet again,
why don't you hop on with me anagram Institute dot org.
(58:55):
You can check out more about Lynn at her work
and lynnmaccracken dot com or in Tune Wellness Center dot
com linkser in the show notes, I'm gonna go see
some clients and then i am going to once again
take the Enneagram assessment to see what it has to say,
and Lynn and I will get together in the future
(59:16):
to die sac dissect the inner workings of doctor Dan.
I hope you will join us then. Meanwhile, to find
out more about what I'm doing, check out Daniel A
Franz dot com. That's d A n I E l
A f r a n z dot com. Upcoming this
year later on, we will be having another ketamine assisted
(59:42):
psychotherapy retreat here in north central Indiana.
Speaker 2 (59:47):
That is information. There's avail on the website if you'd
like to participate, and coming up in the same month
of September this year, I just learned of the Victor
Frankel Institute of Logo Therapy will be hosting I believe
this is the twenty fifth Annual Logo Therapy Congress this
(01:00:08):
year in Chicago, Illinois, So if you want to participate
in that, take a look. I'll have information to available on
the website. Meanwhile, as always, thank you once again for
this opportunity to bring a little bit of meaning, purpose
and resilience to your day.
Speaker 1 (01:00:22):
Take care,
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