Author/sought-after speaker Paolo Gaudiano is my very special guest with “Measuring Inclusion”!

Author/sought-after speaker w/degrees in Applied Mathematics, Aerospace Engineering & Computer Science Paolo Gaudiano talks about his latest release “Measuring Inclusion” offering real world case studies with sample data and step-by-step directions helping you make meaningful & sustainable improvements which discovering a new way of thinking about DEI and how inclusion is the key to organizations that enjoy higher performance and greater employee satisfaction! Paolo is also a former tenured professor turned entrepreneur, chief scientist of Aleria & president of ARC, and explains DEI in an easy-to-understand concept by creating happier employees making more money, plus shares examples of how it’s done! Check out the amazing Paolo Gaudiano and his latest release on all major platforms today! #podmatch #paologaudiano #author #soughtafterspeaker #measuringinclusion #professor #DEI #inclusion #enterpreneur #chiefscientist #aleria #spreaker #iheartradio #spotify #applemusic #youtube #anchorfm #bitchute #rumble #mikewagner #themikewagnershow #mikewagnerpaologaudiano #themikewagnershowpaologaudiano  

Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-mike-wagner-show--3140147/support.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Mike Wagner Show is powered by Sonicweb Studios.

Speaker 2 (00:03):
Hi, This is Mia. Morsons are also known as Mea
No Time for Love. Check out my latest book, Missing,
available on Amazon. The Mike Wagner Show also brought to
you by The Sweet So Much by Serena Wagner, Available
on Amazon. Highlighted up Boget David.

Speaker 3 (00:19):
It's now time for The Mike Wagner Show. Powered by
Sonic Web Studios. Listit online at sonicqueb Studios dot com
for all your needs. The Mike Wagner Show can be
heard on Spreaker, Spotify, iHeartRadio, YouTube, iTunes, Anchor, FM Radio Public,
and The Mike Wagner Show dot Com. Mike brings you
great guests and interesting people from all across the globe.

(00:40):
So sit back, relax, and enjoy another great episode of
The Mike Wagner Show.

Speaker 2 (00:51):
Everybody, It's Mike from The Mike Wagner Show. How are
by Soundweb Studios, Brought you by official sponsor of The
Mike Widner Show. Interation wearing author me and Wilson's here
Missing of we have on Amazon, paperback and ebook coming soon,
Missing too, Double Spence Double a Fund Check it out
on Amazon. Also writes by the Sweet Salmist best Rena
Wagner based the Life of Dave, including Theory, Squizit Pains,
and King David Salm's Amazon dot com keyword Sweet Salmaserena Wagner.

(01:15):
Check out The Mike Widners Show, aut The Mike Wednershow
dot Com, fifty podcast platforms, hid and ten countries. Check
us out on Facebook, SoundCloud, Speakers, Spotify, Iheartrato, Bit, Shoot, Rumble, YouTube,
Apple Music Speaker, and more. We're here with the triffic
gentleman who's an author with degrees in applied mathematics, aerospace
engineering and computerized computational neuroscience. And he's also stutup for

(01:37):
speaker and a former attended professor turned entrepreneurial. Talk about that.
He's the chief scientist of Valeria, president of ARC and
also adjunct at New York Sturn School of Business. And
also he's also part the annual Diversity and Inclusion Research Conference.
We'll talk about that. He explains DEI in easy to

(01:58):
understand concept by creating a happier employees making more manageable
and the book is called Measuring Inclusion. We talk about
that Live Ladies and gentlemen plus dues and beautiful downtown
New York City. The amazing author Degrees and Applied Math,
Aerospace Engineering and Competitional Neuroscience software speaker with the book
Measuring Inclusion. The multi talented Powlow Guardiana, Good morning, get

(02:22):
afternoon Geting. Thanks for joining us today.

Speaker 4 (02:24):
Thank you Mike. It's a real pleasure reading you and
it's quite an honor to be here. Thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (02:28):
What's great to have you on bord. Pow allows here
and author of degrees in Applied Mathematics, Aerospace Engineering, Competitional
Neuroscience or sought off the speaker. You're also a former
turned former tenured professor land entrepreneur. You're chief scientist at Ilaria,
President of ARC and adjuncta at New York School of Business,

(02:48):
and chairman of the annual Diversity and Inclusion Research Conference.
You also explain DEI and easy to understand format and
the book is called Measuring Inclusion Forgetta Polo tell us
time first, Custart.

Speaker 4 (03:02):
Well. I got started in a bit of an odd way,
which is that I always joke with people when I
talk about my work in diversity and inclusion. I describe
myself as the white elephant in the room, because it's
not that common for people like me. You know, I'm
white male, you know, cisgender, heterosexual. I don't have any
permanent disabilities, and so I often knew people often ask
you know, what are you doing in working in the

(03:22):
space of diversity and inclusion. I came into the space
officially as a profession about ten years ago, sorry when
I saw an opportunity to apply work that I've been doing,
first in academia and then as an entrepreneur and consultant.
I thought I could apply that to try to understand
whether it's possible to show a company how much money
they may be able to make by actually treating their

(03:44):
employees better. And I felt that a lot of the
work that was being done at the time in diversity,
equity inclusion was motivated more about issues of fairness and justice.
But I felt that ultimately, if you want to consider
business leader, if you want to consist, you know, tell
the business leader and convince them that they should embrace
some of these ideas, you have to use arguments that
make sense to them. And if you're a business leader,
the one thing that really makes the most sense for

(04:05):
you is how do I make more money? And part
of that is how do I make sure that my
employees are fully engaged and fully productive. And that's really
the angle that I came into it, and that was
ten years ago. And since then, as you mentioned, I've
I've been working with I created a startup called al
Aria where we have developed software that actually helps companies
to measure inclusion. And I can tell you more later

(04:26):
about what that's all about. The book that I wrote
last year called Measuring Inclusion essentially describes the methodology, but
reportedly talks about this idea that there is a lot
of misunderstanding about diversity, acuity, inclusion, and there is a
way of actually embracing that without creating backlash, without upsetting
white people, and in a way that actually directly links
to the well being of companies. So that's my story.

Speaker 2 (04:50):
How do you describe the mess of the DEI It's
like we're some mess that you would debunk.

Speaker 4 (04:55):
Well. I think that the diversity, equity, inclusion has been
turned into this political hot potato, especially right now, which
I think is very unfortunately because what I'm hearing is
that people from if I want to think of it
as both sides, right there are the people that really
think that die is a terrible thing and the people
that think that DEI is a wonderful thing. I honestly
hear a lot of mistaken arguments from both sides. And

(05:16):
let me start by the mistakes that I see on
the pro DII side. My biggest concern, and I wrote
about this actually as early as twenty eighteen, so seven
years ago. I wrote an article in Forms in which
I said, if we continue to focus on diversity alone
as the target of our initiatives and as the measurements
that we use, it's going to lead to backlash. And
I quite literally said, it's going to get white men

(05:37):
to complain about reverse discrimination, and it's going to spread
to other parts of society. And lo and behold, that's exactly
what happened. And the problem is that diversity in and
of itself. I'd like to use an analogy. If you
walk into your house in the winter and it feels
really cold, you look at the thermostat, it reads fifty
degrees fahrenheit. I know how to fix it. I'll light
a match on to the thermostat and look, now it
reads seventy eighty ninety degrees. But Meanwhile, the windows are

(05:58):
open and the front door is the roof is leaking,
and it may actually burn the house down, and that's
exactly what happened. The diversity of a company is a
snapshot in time. It's like your balance sheet of how
your people are inside the organization, and it reflects everything
that happens. The fact that your diversity may not be
as good as you would like it to be is
not really the issue. It's the outcome. It's the result

(06:21):
of the fact that there are some groups of people
in your organization that are treated better or worse than
other groups. One outcome of that is that the people
that are not treated as well are going to be
likely to leave, which means that you're can have fewer
of them, so you have less diversity. But just hiring
more of those people is a big mistake because it
means that you're potentially bringing people into an environment when

(06:41):
they're not welcome. So instead, my argument, which then when
I go to the other side of the fence, when
I talk to business leaders and say, look, don't think
about DII as corporate social responsibility or an act of charity.
Here's the way that you can think about it. If
you have let's say two groups of people. Let's say
you have men and women in your company. And let's
say that women, for whatever reason, you're creating an environment

(07:02):
where they're less welcome than men. They're less able to
perform their work. That's what happens. They're less satisfied, which
means that they will produce less. And we know it's
a very well documented the fact that satisfaction is linked
to your productivity and the quality of your work. So
you're immediately losing money because a group of your people,
in this case, women are producing less than they could

(07:23):
if they were treated the same way as men. But secondly,
these women are much more likely to leave. And we
know that that's also true that people that are less
satisfied they will leave. And we know that replacing employees
is a very very costly, disruptive, time consuming process. So
if you have a condition in your company in which
some of your employees, whether because of their gender, or

(07:44):
because of their sexual orientation, or because of their ethnicity,
whatever the case might be, if they're treated less well,
if they have different experiences that have nothing to do
with their skills, they have only to do with their identity,
you're shooting yourself in the foot because you're losing money
through lower productivity and lower retention rate, which also manifest
themselves the diversity. So you see, the point is, you know,
I'm trying to bring everybody together and say, look, we

(08:06):
all want the same thing. We all want to be
able to get a job for which we're qualified, regardless
of what we look like. And if we're working in
that company and we're doing well, we want to be
able to succeed and get compensated properly and get promoted
and do all these other wonderful things. That's what everybody wants.
But then we get tied up in these arguments about
diversity and meritocracy and fairness and justice and reverse discrimination,

(08:30):
and we confuse things in a way that is completely unecessary.
And my book and my work really makes it blindingly
clear that we really all want the same thing, and
we just have to come up with the right metrics,
the right definitions, and a way of linking the behaviors
and experiences of the people to the ri of the company.
And that's essentially what to do.

Speaker 2 (08:49):
You imagined something about was meritrocity.

Speaker 4 (08:51):
What is that meritocracy? So meritocracy. It's a very interesting
term because people today in business talk about meritocracy as
sort of an idealistic situation in which people advance in
an organization because of their merit, because of their performance,
not because they're black, or because they're women, or because

(09:12):
of the disability, or because they're white, or whatever the
case might be. Now, what's interesting, So the idea is
that a meritocracy means, you know, it's basically a hierarchical
system in which people advance based on their merit. The
problem is that as much as people tout meritocracy as
being a wonderful thing, and they say, oh, diversity ecreated
inclusion destroys meritocracies because now we've got to hire these

(09:34):
people that are less qualified, which is a whole different
argument that is also very deeply flawed. But even if
it was true, the problem is, unless you define what
a meritocracy actually is, and you quantify it and you
show me that it actually makes your business work better,
then it's just an ideology. And so right now, what's
happening today is that we have these people that are
talking about this ideology of meritocracy, and by the way,

(09:56):
a need listener that has ever said I think meritocracy
is great. I would challenge to the following find me
one company one where somebody has actually taken the time
to define meritocracy in a way that is clear and measurable,
and that they've actually measured the impact of meritocracy over
time and shown that their definition of meritocracy actually leads

(10:19):
to greater results. If you can find one company that
has ever done that, please please let me know, because
I've never seen that people talk about meritocracy but they
don't actually do anything about it. And so my encouragement is,
let's recognize that it's an ideology that we all aspire to.
But the thing is that we want meritocracy for everyone,

(10:42):
which is better for people that have been excluded from
the meritocracy, and it's better for companies that will make
more money by having an environment in which more people
are contributing, more people are generating more revenues, more people
are going to stick around instead of leaving your company
and going to your competitors.

Speaker 2 (11:00):
Groups and ethnicity and also gender and other factors have
been greatly affective by the mactronosity. I'm having trouble with
that word.

Speaker 4 (11:09):
I'm sorry it's meritocracy. No, it's Mary. So it's like
rock merit. You know, there's like right democracy and then
merit ocracy. Right, it's kind of like the same concept, right,
So so they what's happened? I think, And there's a
lot of data that shows that when companies tout the
idea that they're a meritocracy where you know, you advance

(11:30):
based on your merit and on your identity, Unfortunately, ones
that are happening, you know, very often is that there
is a question which is that, well, how do you
define merit? And very often what iss up happening is
that the people that are already in the leadership role
will say, well, I think that this person deserves the job.
Why Well, because they went to the same school that
I do. It did they have the same degree that

(11:51):
I do, They follow the same path that I did,
they did similar internships, and therefore I am comfortable that
they're likely to succeed because I succeeded. But when you
do that, unfortunately, it tends to create a very homogeneous
kind of environment, so that if you come from a
different background, and it could be ethnically different, but really
could be a matter of where you grew up. It
could be a matter of the language that you speak,

(12:13):
it could be a matter of how you look. You know,
maybe you like to you know, where weird things, you know,
whatever peers knows, or whatever the case might be. And
people will assume that because of that, you are not
likely to succeed. And so a meritocracy, unfortunately, has very
often been kind of an excuse to continue to promote

(12:33):
people that you feel, without a really quantitative handle on it,
that you feel are going to be successful in the organization.
But that's where all these biases come in, because hey,
we all, you know, it's a very human thing. We
get along with people that look like us, that sound
like us, that share backgrounds with us. And it's a
little bit counterintuitive to get outside of the comfort zone

(12:54):
and the meritocracy unless you define it and measure it properly,
which is what I'm suggesting that we do. The meritocracy
ends up being a way of making like an old
boys club where we all get along, we all like
drinking together, we all like playing golf, and then pretty
soon lo and behold. You tend to have a lot
of one group of people and not a lot of
another group of people.

Speaker 2 (13:14):
And I'm thinking about the groups as well too that
you talk about the meritocracy and whatever else. Now you
talked about some of the applicants, like say you need
some of this, and of that, some of that. What
if the qualified appan pool is in bounce, I say
you don't have enough of this, you don't have enough
of that, or I have too much of that, It's

(13:34):
like what happens?

Speaker 4 (13:36):
Well, so I have to say something, which is something
that I diverge from a lot of people in the
space of diversity, equity, inclusion, which is that, first of all,
focusing on hiring is a big mistake because again if
you look at the numbers, you find that the biggest
problem is with retention. It's once you get inside the door,
what is happening to your people? Now, admittedly, you have

(13:57):
to be mindful about tapping as much of a talent
pool as possible. So if you're excluding yourself, like if
you only go and recruit let's say, from Ivy League schools, well,
you think I'm getting the best students, but you're competing
with some really, really really big competitors, and so it's
not necessarily you may get somebody that maybe is a
lower tier from an IVY League final ivyleg school, and

(14:18):
you're missing out on all of the other millions of students,
many of whom are actually equally talented, if not more
talented then a lot of the IVY League students simply
because you're going to that one thing. So, yes, hiring
to some extent is important, but what's more important is
get away from this idea of focusing on, oh, I
need more of this group, I need more of this group,
because ultimately my question would be why you know? And

(14:40):
this is not a very easy thing to answer. People say, oh,
you know, you need diversity of thoughts, so the you
have greater innovation. Well, how many people in a typical
company are focused on innovation and how often do they
do that? And guess what? There is research that shows that, yes,
if you're trying to come up with an innovative idea,
a more diverse team, more diverse viewpoints, whether it's cognitive diversity,

(15:01):
physiological whatever, you know, gender diversity, whatever kind of diversity.
It is true that that can contribute to finding better solutions.
But it's also true that when you have to implement something,
it's been proven over and over again that homogeneous teams
work much better. And so just saying, oh, diversity is
good for innovation, I'm sorry, but it's like unless you're

(15:22):
innovating one hundred percent of the time and doing nothing else.
But most companies don't do that. Most companies are actually
concerned with implementing things. So to me, the idea that
homogeneity is good, it's not so much that homogeneity is good.
It's just that you have to make sure that people
are all treated the same. So it's so much more
important to create an environment where if it so happens
that a member of the team maybe speaks with an accent,

(15:44):
or comes from a different country, or has a different
kind of degree than yours, or happens to be racially
or ethnically different, or happens to be you know, gay
or lesbian or transgender, you know, great, you should make
sure that those people can contribute their ideas just as
much as anybody else, and they can contribute to the
team for implementation just as much as anybody else. Because

(16:05):
I have.

Speaker 2 (16:05):
Different thought or I have a different thought process as
well to or.

Speaker 4 (16:08):
Exactly right, exactly, I mean, you know, you and I
I would say, sort of, we we both identify as
white men, and I suspect we're somewhat cool. You know,
I'm older than you, but you know we're both not
exactly gen zers, right, But I would imagine baby boomers.

Speaker 2 (16:24):
I think baby bomers are on the verge of being discriminate.

Speaker 4 (16:27):
I hate to say this, so well, I'm you know,
I'm actually on the tail end of the baby boomer
myself and I you know, and I kind of feel like,
in spite of that, I know a lot of baby
boomers who are wide and male, who think very differently
from me. I mean, witness the fact that I'm working
in diversity, equity inclusion, right. So to me, the idea
that we start with an identity first and try to

(16:48):
solve problems and address concerns based on identity is a
huge mistake because you're immediately creating a sense of otherness.
You're saying, well, oh, you want more women, that means
you have to have fewer men. You want more more
people of call it immediate, have to have fewer white people.
And that kind of mindset is very damaging. And I
believe it's actually one of the reasons, not the only reason,

(17:08):
And there's certainly some more nefarious reasons behind it. But
one of the reasons for the backlash is that by
focusing soo much on representation, on diversity, on identity, we
have inadvertently created this backlash where people get frustrated about it,
and then other people can take advantage of that frustration
to start to go and politicize it and turn it

(17:29):
into a wedge to divide people, which is a terrible,
terrible thing that is happening in our country right now.
And we need to learn to get beyond the rhetoric
and to get beyond these you know, people screaming about
diversity and fairness and inclusion and belonging on the one hand,
and meritocracy and lowering the bar and you know whatever
on the other hand, and realize that, look, let's all

(17:51):
focus on what we really need. We need better companies
with happier employees that are making more money.

Speaker 2 (17:58):
And plus to also, generals could be involved as well too,
you not being baby boomers, also gen X, gen Y,
gen Z millennials. We'll talk about that with Powell A.
Gaudiano and the book Measuring Inclusion, But first listen to
the Mike Widners Show at the Mic Winners Show dot
Com powered by Sound Crab Studios. Visit online at sound
crab studios dot com. Probably needs looking at a professional

(18:19):
website without breaking and budget. Soundcrab Studios is the answer.
Soundaquab Studios offers fast, affordable, customer wet designs that blow
the competition away. Called today one one hundred three oh
three three nine six zero. It's twenty one hundred three
oh three three nine six zero. Email to support at
soundcrab studios dot com. Mentioned Mike Widners Show, Get twenty
percent off your first project Soundoqrab Studios take your image

(18:39):
at next level. Also time give official shoutout to official
sponsor to the Mic Weadner's show, International Worrying author Me
and Mulson's The If you love fast paced mysteries, you
love Missing by MEA Mulsons. The available on Amazon paperback
in your book. Missing is fast pacing and intriguing with
an unfavorable twist. Takes place in four countries, two strangers,
one target, where truth is illusion and those will be
the first go messing. It's availed on Amazon and paperback

(19:01):
in your book Missing by Me and Wilson's z has
gone great views and Evil Lovan and George by Howard
celebrities including Juanna, Cassie forst Riley and many oists. So
grab your copy today Forgoes Missing by Me and Wilson's
The available on Amazon, coming soon Missing to Double Spence,
Double the Fun. Check it out on Amazon. Also brit
to buy The Sweet Salmist by Serena Wagner, based on
a Life of Dave including Theory, Squizz of Pains and

(19:22):
King David Psalms. The Sweet Salmas gives new perspective Dad
from Sums you wrote as the Thomas Spherd started and
complicate your turbo relationship with King Saul Is starf love, betrayal, repentance,
hope and more. Check out The Sweet Salmis by Serena
wearing Amazon keyword Sweet Thomas Serena Water. Also check out
the Mike Winners show out the Mic Wadner Shows dot Com,
fifty podcast platforms heard one hundred and ten countries, tickets

(19:43):
with you on any mobile device, follow us on Facebook,
sound Cloud, Speakers, Spotify, iHeartRadio, also on Anchor FM, Apple
Music and more. And for great gift ideas, t shirts, popsuckers,
throw pillows, tope bagswooties, Amazon dot Com. Check out the
Mike Wadner Show podcast and for Mark Great f Ideas,
Got Amazon dot Com, slash Me and Wilson's The Great Books, Merchandise,

(20:04):
More and Sports, Micrownder's show on a GRAFM, PayPal and
the micro Whinnershow dot Com. We had the multi time
author sought after speaker with Greers of applient Mathematics, aerospace engineering,
computational Neuroscience Polo al Gaudiola here on the micro in
your show and tell us about your background with applied math,
aerospace engineering, competational neuroscience and how'd you, Firse get inspired

(20:26):
by that.

Speaker 4 (20:28):
It's a It's a really interesting question. And when I
look back on my career, you know, I like the joke.
So I'm sixty three years old now, and I started
working in DII when I was fifty three, and I
told myself, I finally figured out what I want to
do when I grow up. So it took me fifty
three years to figure that out. But in retrospect, when
I look at what I did, I was always very
interested in learning as much as I could about as

(20:49):
many fields as I could. I was. I was a
very curious person and as a kid, I loved working
on mechanical things. I would, you know, I was the
kind of kid that, like, at ten years old, I
would like tear apart my parents vacuum cleaner and put
it back together just to figure out how I worked.
So I always really liked that, and so I wanted
to study engineering. I learned to use computers like early, early,
early on when I was in high school. Actually, when

(21:09):
I first came to the States, I was at mylast
year of high school. I lived with the family. It
was an exchange student, if you will, and we bought
one of those very very first Apple two E's right,
we're talking about in the in the.

Speaker 2 (21:20):
Lake, wow, like those big ones like the Lisa, the
Mac and all that almost.

Speaker 4 (21:25):
Exactly exactly and so and so I was fascinated with stuff,
and so when I started to study I was I
loved mathematics too, but I saw that I was interested
in the applications of mathematics, and so I was able
to get into a degree program and applied mathematics, which
was a great excuse to learn a lot of math
but also learn a lot of engineering. So I was
taking engineering courses from any different departments, and towards the

(21:45):
end of my undergraduate, I was involved with some projects
that had to do with aerospace. There was a group
of students that was going to send up a project
up on the Space Shuttle, and unfortunately, later the Space
Shuttle blew up, so that that experiment never really took
off to the ground quite literally, but we ended up
being involved with that. And I also took a course
on how the brain works from an engineering perspective, and

(22:06):
I thought, oh my god, this is the most amazing
thing that I've ever learned, and so I wanted to
study that. And there was a professor at the time
who was in Aerospace Engineering department that was studying what
was called neural networks, which today we called AI. And
so he invited me. He said, do you want to
be you know, work on me on a master's degree.
So I had a master's degree in which I learned
about neuroscience. I learned how the brain works. But at

(22:26):
the same time I learned everything about computational fluid dynamics
and you know whatever, orbital dynamics and all kinds of
things about aerospace engineering. And I went to NASA for
some projects and so it was kind of two degrees
for one and then I was able to get a
PhD in computational neuroscience, where I literally brought together my
background in mathematics, psychology, cognitive science, physiology to understand essentially

(22:49):
how the brain works. So it was really kind of
like AI, but different because we really cared about how
the brain works. All of that taught me one very
very important thing. And I know this sounds like a
crazy connection to where I'm today, but I was fascinated
by how neurons in your brain, which individually are very
they're very noisy, they're not very accurate. If you look

(23:10):
at a thousand neurons in your brain, they're all different
from each other. Imagine making a camera where all of
the photo sensors are all completely different from each other,
like it would never work. Somehow, the brain magically creates
the circuits that make it possible for you to do
things like see and speak and move your hands, which
US Italians do a lot more. And so that's what
I was studying, and what it taught me was a

(23:31):
way of quantifying the link between an individual and the collective.
So whether it's a neuron inside your right now or
inside your brain, and later I applied that to people
inside an organization, or drivers on a highway, or users
on a computer network, or a lot of the work
that it did also was, for example, looking at marketing,

(23:52):
understanding how people behave in the context of let's say
a marketplace where they're buying and selling things. And so
I spent first ten years as a professor. I got tenured.
Then I got tired of being a professor. Well, I
got tired of the academic lifestyle, and I decided I
wanted to be an entrepreneur. And then I spent about
fifteen years in a company where we use these computer
simulations to solve really complex problems that had to do

(24:14):
with managing people. And then I was personally interested in DEI.
And then in twenty fifteen, ten years ago, I had
this light bulb moment where I was sitting on a
session about DII, and as I was hearing people talk
about the experiences that they had and struggling to find solutions,
I thought, well, maybe I can take my work and
use it to quantify the impact of diversity equity inclusion.

(24:37):
I got super excited about it. I dropped everything else
I was doing. I spent about a year doing my
own research. I built those computer simulations and that's how
I got into it. So in a way, my background,
you know, my mathematical background really helped me to think
very logically about things. My engineering background makes me appreciate
building things. Then the fact that I was a teacher
is one thing that I love to do is I

(24:57):
love to do public speaking, whether it's podcast or presentations.
I mean, I literally do, I've done, this is going
to be this is today is my fortieth presentation since
the beginning.

Speaker 2 (25:06):
Of my goodness Wow, yeah no.

Speaker 4 (25:09):
And I love taking complex ideas and making them simple
for people. And then that's the teacher to me. And
then eventually the diversity ecred inclusion kind of brought together
all the pieces of my background, my business experience, my
entrepreneurial experience, my scientific experience, my experience understanding people, and
my passion for ultimately trying to make the world a
better place. Not because I believe in like again uniforms

(25:32):
and fairies, but because so often I see people wasting
their time and energy hating on each other and fighting
each other instead of saying, can we find the common
ground that we can all agree on? So then instead
of pushing in different directions, we're all pushing forward because
I think that when you do that, you make better progress.
And so really my entire career, all aspects of it,

(25:53):
have really led me to do the work that I'm
doing right now. And every morning when I rea c up,
I am just so grateful that I'm doing my work
that I'm doing because it's so meaningful to me. Now.
Since the middle of January, when all of these executive
orders have come out basically trying to destroy the field
of DII, things have been tricky, but luckily for me
because my work is so dramatically different. Because I don't

(26:14):
talk about the controversial aspects of DI I've actually been
able to do okay. And as I mentioned, people are
inviting me left right at center like I Literally every
week I will get two or three emails saying can
you come speak at this conference? Can you do a podcast?
Can you teach a lecture for my students? And so
I feel very much that even though it's a difficult time,
I feel that I am doing something truly amazing that

(26:36):
has a chance to get us beyond all of this
turmoil and what I hope will be a significantly brighter
condition for everyone.

Speaker 2 (26:44):
I think that sounds amazing as well too. When you
talk about protons and neutrons and all that, I think
of the third one which is called morons, which some
people to think of it too, protons, neurons and morons.

Speaker 4 (26:57):
You should have a T shirt made up that says
that protons neurons and you know it's.

Speaker 2 (27:01):
It's actually all over Facebook too, and the memes and
whatever else I think that was like, and what bugs
bunny or something like that. You'll learn a lot about
bugs Bunny, I'll tell you. So he'll have been part
of it too, is you know, he's a rabbit. He's
a smart ass, and he could qualify for DEI too.
And you know, speaking of that to being president of Alera,
you have you know a lot of people in there,

(27:22):
maybe give some of the background, some mere key employees,
like you know, diverse backgrounds, race, gender, creed, everything like that.

Speaker 4 (27:31):
Maybe, you know. So, so here's the thing I've worked
so right now. Our company is actually very small. We're
down to only about three people because because of the
fact that well we were a startup and so you know,
we're not that old. And really the startup we found
it a few years ago and it's been kind of
an interesting I have altogether probably about a dozen people
that help with various things, but in terms of actually
the people that are actively involved, there is three of us,

(27:52):
and I'm the only white man. There's a there's a
woman who happens to be from China. There's another woman
who happens to be from Italy. I've we've worked with
people when I collaborate with people, going to do a
lot of collaborations right now. For example, I'm starting to
write a second book that's going to be kind of
a sequel that really talks about this issue of meritocracy.
And my co author is a black woman who's absolutely brilliant,
and we have some of the most amazing conversations. But

(28:14):
one of the things that I that I've always emphasized
is that focusing on identity is the wrong thing to do. Don't.
I didn't hire a woman to be my partner, you know,
in my business because she's a woman. I did that
because she was the best person that had the qualifications
that I needed. Now, in some cases, if you are
trying to sell let's say, golf clubs to white men,

(28:37):
then you probably want a white guy who knows how
to play golf right, Well, if you're trying to sell
the verses you're Tiger would so well unless you put
it right. But what I'm saying is that you there
is certainly a truth that you need to be mindful.
You need to be able to understand the audience that
you're targeting. Now, I don't buy this notion that, wow,
you need to have thirteen percent of these and eight

(28:57):
percent of those five percent of those. I think, to me,
it's more important that you need to have an environment
in which if I find it advantageous to hire a
black person because I need to be able to understand
the community better, I want to make sure that that
black person is going to be able to contribute meaningfully,
because if I hire somebody and then I treat them
like crap and they climb up and they don't contribute,

(29:20):
and you know that I'm sitting there and I'm not
learning anything, and I'm wasting my money and their time.
So I am much less concerned about like I get
frustrated with companies like, oh, but you know, look, we've
increased this by one point three percent. That it's like,
so what you've increased it by one point three percent
and it's so doing you've pissed off half of your
company who now claim that they're being discriminated against because

(29:42):
they're white male. And that's a really stupid thing to do,
because if you're just saying you know, and you're also
not only that, by the way, you're diminishing those people
that you hire. Do you know how many times I
hear complaints by let me tell you something. So the
way that we collect data, the way that we measure inclusion,
is that we ask people to share experiences of simply,
we don't say of things that made you feel like

(30:03):
to me. We just say, tell us about things that
have interfered with your ability to be successful at work,
and then we ask them to categorize and do a
certain thing. So we try to be very We just
want to know what happened, not how you feel about it,
what happened and the comments that we hear, the complaints
about DA But here's what happens. A lot of women,
a lot of people of color. They will say things
that basically say, because my company is pushing DII blindly

(30:27):
just by focusing on targets. Now people accuse me of
only being here because I'm a woman, because I'm black,
because I'm gay, because of a disability, and it's a terrible,
terrible thing to do. We saw it during the elections.
Right people were saying that Kamala Harris was the DII
candidate as an insult, as if to say, the only
reason you got nominated as a candidate was because you're

(30:48):
a black woman, which is incredibly insulting. It's incredibly insulting,
and unfortunately we created inadvertently that kind of an environment.
But it's an absolute shame because the reality is that
we need to be able to recognize people for the
contributions that they make. Being color blind is actually a
stupid idea. People are like, oh, we need to be

(31:09):
color blind meritocracy. You need to recognize that people come
from different backgrounds from you. You need to recognize that
they will have different kinds of experiences, different kinds of attitudes,
different kinds of things that they could contribute, and pretending
that you're blind that everybody looks exactly the same is stupid.
You should instead embrace the fact that people are bringing
you diverse perspectives, whether it's because of the race or

(31:31):
simply because they grew up in a different place. From you.
And so I always tell people, please, please, please don't
lead with identity. Do not lead with questions of you know, oh,
do you have enough of these? Do you have enough
of those? Well, do you have enough queer black women
who were raised in the United States with parents from
the Caribbean who actually emigrated from you know, It's like

(31:53):
it's a rabbit hole that you simply simply cannot get
out of it.

Speaker 2 (31:56):
So let's say, it just gets really nippicky. That's the thing, too,
just really nippicky. It's almost like really impossible. It's like
asking what, like, you know, fifty or one hundred senators
what they want on their pizza.

Speaker 4 (32:07):
You can't do it, you can you can't do it.
And this is, by the way, this is another thing
that I find very interesting about people in the diversity space.
And I think I understand why we do that, right,
But you get these two things that people say that
they want. One, I want to be able to bring
my whole self to work. I want to be able
to be my genuine, true me. I want to be
able to be me and being recognized for me as

(32:28):
a unique individual. At the same time, we say I
want the company to recognize that people like me are disadvantaged.
They're discriminated against the problems. Now here's the problem. Okay,
those are both valuable aspirations, but when you put them together,
they contradict one another, because if you truly want to

(32:48):
understand your experience, then it needs to be just you.
Because you may identify as a white males is gender
heterosexual person, but that does not mean that you're exactly
the same as every other white malesist gender headosexual person,
and the same thing with every identity. So where do
you draw the line? How big should the bucket space?
Should we look at the experiences of all black people? Well,
but what about black people that did not come from

(33:08):
the United States? What about somebody who grew up in
Nigeria to a very wealthy family, got a degree from
a top school in the UK, and then came to
work in the United States. Is that the same thing
as somebody who grew up in the Deep South from
people that were children or grandchildren or sharecroppers, who was
the first person to ever go to college. You know,

(33:29):
they're both black, right, So we need to again, focusing
on diversity first is a huge mistake. And I know
why people do it. I believe that they do it
because back in the nineteen sixties we had the convergence
of two things. We had civil rights movements, but we
also have women gaining more rights, and all of a
sudden you had more women, more people of color than

(33:51):
there was the ada, So there were people with disabilities.
There were all of these laws that made it more
likely for people who were not white men to make
it to the workforce. They joined companies and they're not
treated well, they're treated like crap. They don't get invited
to meetings, they get oh, it's like we forgot. Oh
we're going out drinking with the bodies, and we don't
feel comfortable having you around because you're a woman with

(34:11):
children or whatever they or because you're black, and you know,
whatever the case might be. So these people realize that
they were not welcome in the workplace. But the problem
is that how do you measure that. Well, the only
thing they could measure was diversity, because diversity is easy.
You go in a room and you count how many
of these, how many of those? How many of those?
And so diversity became the torch that was carried because
it was the only thing that people knew how to measure,

(34:32):
and still today, with the exception of my book, I
believe that most people all they measure is diversity. The
only exception is that now people measure feelings of inclusion,
which to me is useless because knowing that you feel
excluded is like going to the doctor and the doctor
asking you how healthy do you feel today? Oh, on
a scale of one to ten, you feel five. Okay,
take to aspirin and call me in the morning. It's

(34:53):
not enough to know that people feel excluded, that they
feel that they don't belong. You need to know what
is happening to you, that is, and then you need
to see are things happening to you that are not
happening to other people? Can I fix that? If you're
being excluded from meetings? Can I create a policy that
every manager has to keep track of everybody who's invited
to meetings, and that have to immediately notify anybody who

(35:14):
was excluded inadvertently and let them know what happened in
the meeting. Right, So, instead of focusing on diversity, let's
focus on inclusion. And by inclusion I mean companies that
make it possible for everyone to have the same kinds
of experiences and to contribute meaningfully to the company, regardless
of what they look like. And when you start to

(35:35):
think of it that way, I think it just makes
it makes it a lot easier for everyone. You know,
you've avoid all these conflicts and controversies I have.

Speaker 2 (35:41):
About the generational thing. We are going to cover as
well too.

Speaker 4 (35:44):
For a time out.

Speaker 2 (35:45):
You know, baby boomers, gen X, gen Y, gen Z, millennials.
Now you got the was that the alpha generation? Then
you got upcoming beta? So it's like, how do you
manage the generational thing involving DEI.

Speaker 4 (35:58):
Yeah, it's so it's the same thing. You know, we're
creating labels, we're slapping labels on people, and we're assuming
that because you are gen Z, this is how you behave,
this is your attitude. I know a lot of gen zs.
You know, I have two kids who are millennials, and
I have two step children who are not gen zs.

(36:19):
Whatever the next one is. But you know, but it's like, yeah,
all different. No, honestly, I apologize, I forget after like millennial,
maybe maybe gen Z but anyway, at that point, being
again the rather than focusing on the fact that, oh
you're a gen Z. How do I talk to you?
You should be the kind of person that says, I
recognize that you bring something into the workplace that is

(36:42):
different from what I bring into the workplace. I would
respect that. Now, if you suck and you don't shop
for work, and you have a terrible attitude and you
assume that you know you're entitled to everything and you
don't feel like you need to work more than four
hours a day, is I'm going to fire your ass.
Not because you're a gen Z, because you're not contributed
to my company.

Speaker 2 (36:59):
Right, I know, Generation race or anything.

Speaker 4 (37:01):
It's just no, no, So it's really more. It's really
more about be prepared, learn how a to measure as
a company, measure when there may be some things that
are not working properly because they're causing problems for some
groups of people. And as an individual, just learn to
be a bit more open minded. But more importantly, I

(37:22):
think that ultimately we cannot put the burden individuals like
people that are like, oh, we need to do one.
If only people were not racist and prejudiced, if only
if everybody knew how to treat everybody else, if only
everybody you know, It's like, look, you cannot blame individuals.
We're biased. I go to a party, I find somebody Italian,
and I start speaking Italian to them. I like them
because we share a lot of things in common. Right,

(37:44):
we share a lot of things. We are a lot
of things in common. But the point is that as
an individual, if you give me guidelines, as a company,
you create policies that say, okay, here's how you organize meetings,
here's how you make sure that you're assigning projects fairly.
Because if I like the Italian guy when or the
Italian woman when I'm talking to them at lunch and
we sit in the corner speaking Italian, that's okay. But

(38:06):
if when the time comes to assigned clients, I give
that person the best clients because I like them, that's
the problem. Because all of a sudden, all the Italians
in the company are getting all the best projects. And
then guess what when performance review comes around, Oh yeah
they're great. Look they got all these great clients, they
sold more stuff, and it's not because they're better, it's
because they're Italian. That would be wrong, and this is
the mistake that we're making. And so the best way

(38:28):
to do that is not to say stop liking Italians.
That's bullshit. You can't do that. I like Italians and
I'm always gonna like Italians, right, And it's the same
thing whether it's political religious. Of course, if you happen
to be a very spiritual person, you're gonna be more
likely to have a meaningful conversation with somebody who's also
a spiritual person. If you're an atheist, you're gonna be
more comfortable speaking with another atheist. That's not the problem.

(38:49):
Don't fix that, don't try to break those unconscious biases.
Create policies, processes, and systems that minimize the negative impact
on people that may result from those biases. Your meeting
schedules should be very structured. Your performance evaluation should be structured.
Who gets mentoring should be structured, who gets promoted, how
much people get paid, all of that should be structured

(39:11):
in a very clear way that strips out subjective ideals.
And when you do that as a company, you will
have created a meritocracy. You will have created an environment
in which people are promoted, advanced, compensated because of the
work that they do, not because of what they look like.
And doesn't that sound appealing and easy? Instead of oh,

(39:34):
you're a bad person because you you know, when you
see black people, you get scared and you think that
there might be criminals. That kind of stuff is decades,
decades of being bombarded by the media, by an entertainment
industry that.

Speaker 2 (39:47):
Can say social media too, and social media and social media,
those kinds of those kinds of built in reactions are unavoidable.

Speaker 4 (39:56):
But what you can do, you can learn to recognize
them and you can all so be given guidelines that say,
here's what you need to do in the context of
a corporation. This is what we expect of you, this
is how you should behave, These are the policies that
you should follow. And if you can do that, life
is going to be a lot easier. You're not going
to be said. You know, it's not about oh, now
you need to go hire a person like this because

(40:16):
we don't have enough of them, because well, maybe you
go hire a person like that and then they're not qualified,
and then it makes everybody else look terrible, and it
makes you frustrated because now you hired somebody in your
team that is incapable. When people talk about you know,
I don't want to lower the bar amen to that
but but show me to the bar, show me that
you've created a bar that is measurable, and show me

(40:39):
that you've actually tracked the effectiveness of your bar in
choosing candidates. If you can't do that, then shut the
hell up, because you're just making up discriminatory ideas of
where you think is the bar. And so every time
I hear these kinds of arguments, you know, meritocracy, lowering
the bar higher in the best put numbers behind you
the bhind. That's what it did with my first book,

(41:01):
you Know, we Measured Inclusion, and my second book that
I'm working on, which talks about this idea of the
intersection of meritocracy and inclusion and basically builds. So this
was really about measuring something that we've never measured before,
which is the experiences of people in the workplace and
how that impacts the finances of the organization. The next
book really looks at the next level up, which is
that how do you then create an environment where you

(41:23):
can by measuring the right things, you can actually ensure
that your processes are maximizing the probability of success of
all your employees, not just the ones that are privileged.

Speaker 2 (41:35):
And I think that and I think maybe great for
bonus time and everything else is what we need and
more on the book Measure Inclusion with Power Allow Guardian.
In a minute, you'll listen to The Mike Wadner Show
at the Mike Wednershow dot Com powered by Cyberquab Studios,
brought to buy official sponsor to the Mike Wader's Show
Internet worrying out there me and Muslims and missing the
Sweet Salbums prest Reino Wagner based on Life of Dave,
including thirty Squils, the Pains and Candid but Psalms Amazon

(41:57):
dot com keywords sweet sums, Raina Wagner. We'ld be back
with the multi touted Howillow Guardiato of Measured Inclusion after
this time.

Speaker 1 (42:05):
The Mike Wagner Show is powered by Sonicweb Studios. If
you're looking to start or upgrade your online presence, visit
www dot sonicwebstudios dot com for all of your online needs.
Call one eight hundred three oh three three nine six
zero or visit us online at www dot sonicwebstudios dot

(42:25):
com to get started today. Mention The Mike Wagner Show
and get twenty percent off your project Sonicweb Studios take
your image to the next level.

Speaker 5 (42:34):
Hey there, Dana Laksa here, American news anchor. Hey, let
me ask you something real quick. Why do you read
a book. You're buying a story, a thought, a message,
and a good book entertains and inspires. And that's exactly
what A Missing By Award winning author me On Zia does.
I have his book right here, and it's based on
real events with relatable characters that hook you from start

(42:58):
to finish. I personally love this book. It's super powerful
and meaningful. You can actually get it on Amazon right now.

Speaker 2 (43:05):
The Mike Wagner Show is brought to you by Serena
Wagner's book The Sweet Sawmist, now availed on Amazon. This
book includes thirty exquisite paintings by well known and unknown
painters and King David Psalms. The Sweet Salmist gives us
a new perspective on his life in this book through
the songs he wrote. His time as a shepherd in
the field is where the book starts, and it goes
on to describe his complicated and turbulent relationship with King Saul,

(43:25):
as well as other events. It's a story of love, betrayal, repentance,
and more. It also offers advice on approaching God and
living a life that pleases him. Check out the book
The Sweet Salmist by Serena Wagner, now available on Amazon
keywords Sweet Palmist, Serena Wagner. Hey, Hey, this is Ray
Powers and boy are you in luck right place?

Speaker 4 (43:45):
Right time?

Speaker 2 (43:46):
Tuned into the Mike Wagner Show.

Speaker 4 (43:49):
You heard me.

Speaker 2 (43:54):
Went back with how Law Gaudiano of measured inclusion here
on the Mike Waiter's Show, and holla, you just really
broke down in a great central way. And any final
thoughts are what can people learn from this?

Speaker 4 (44:07):
The only thing that I would say is that, unfortunately,
there are economic and political forces that benefit from creating
division in our country, that benefit from creating hatred between
groups of people because it makes it easy to polarize
people and then pull them into your camp and get
their votes, get their money, get their support for your laws,

(44:28):
and things of that sort. That division is harmful, That
division is not healthy. It's very easy to follow into that.
So my appeal to people is, let's recognize that, with
very very few exceptions with the very very very most
extreme people, a lot of people in the middle of
a reasonable and we all want the same thing. We
all want to be able to get jobs that were

(44:49):
qualified for regardless of what we look like. We want
to be able to get promoted based on the work
that we did, not based on our identity. So my
appeal to people is if you're tempted to say, oh
that DII is bi and it's horrible and it's reverse discrimination,
just ask yourself, is that really true or is that
just what you hear from the bubble that you're in.
And likely likewise in DEI, the word meritocracy has been

(45:13):
a very bad word like people ind I think that
meritocracy is basically a dog whistle for you know, racism
and discrimination and prejudice and homogeneous companies and white supremacy
and all this stuff. And I would ask to be
only DII stop that, start realizing that the people that
you think you know, the views they hear from the
other side are very very extreme views that are not
representative of the most people want. And I really firmly

(45:35):
believe that if we just like let go of the
hatred and recognize that there are these politicized, polarized arguments
that are really flawed and come back to what we
truly all want. I believe it will be a much
better society, and I will believe. I believe that it
will make companies that make a lot more money and
employees that will be a lot happier, you know, which
is why the title of my book it's higher profits

(45:57):
and happier people. That's what I want. That's what I
want for my clients, that's what I want for my friends,
that's what I'm for people in my family. And I
hope that a lot of your listeners will appreciate that
as well.

Speaker 2 (46:06):
And certainly as well too. You're really putting a nutshell
pow allow. Where can we find your boock? Measuring Inclusion?

Speaker 4 (46:10):
That so pretty much any bookseller if you go, by
the way, right now, if you go to Amazon dot
com and you look up Measuring Inclusion, it's the only
book with the title. My publisher we actually have won
now three awards with this book. And celebrate that my
publisher has dropped the price on the Kindle version to
only ninety nine cents. And one thing that I would

(46:31):
like to encourage people to do is, Okay, great, I
can buy a book for ninety nine cents. But here's
another thing. You can do with Amazon. You can buy
multiple copies and you get individual redemption codes that never expire.
So if you spend twenty bucks and you buy twenty
copies of the book, you can give nineteen of them
a way to your colleagues, your friends. Make it a
Christmas gift because these things never expire, and so I

(46:52):
would highly encourage listeners take advantage of this amazing opportunity.
Buy multiple copies of my kindle book, give it away
to people, or buy one, read it, and if you
like it, then go back and buy a bunch more.
The sale is going to go on through the summer.
But I'm really hoping to get the word out. You know,
I get whatever. I might make twenty cents every time
somebody buys a kindle book. I'm not going to get rich.
Even if I sell ten thousand copies, that'll be what,

(47:14):
you know, whatever, two hundred dollars, right, I mean it's
two thousand dollars. Yeah, maybe, but still but the point
the point being, you know, I really hope that people
go out and read the book and help me to
get the word out because I think it's a it's
a very very dark time right now, and I think
that we can make things much.

Speaker 2 (47:33):
Better, and that's a great idea. What you're doing, Pollau
And what's your website?

Speaker 4 (47:38):
My website is Alaria dot tech and that's spelled A
L E r I A dot t e c H.
We acknowledge the fact that we are a technology company
that's focused on di I. But at heart we have software,
we have you know, the platform, we have a dashboard
and all these other things. So Alaria dot tech is
my company. And then of course you can find me
on LinkedIn. There are not a lot of power Galdiano's

(48:01):
on LinkedIn not pretty much the only one, but I
would say Alaria dot Tech. And then Amazon for the
book Measuring Inclusion.

Speaker 2 (48:08):
Well, certainly check out We're here the amazing multi time
Pala Guardiano of Measuring Inclusion here on Mike Wedner's show.
Just a few more things, but judge your upcoming book.
What else are we expecting twenty twenty five and beyond
even going in a twenty twenty six Two things.

Speaker 4 (48:22):
One of them is with my very dear friend and
colleague Cynthia Overton, we are now starting to write a
second book which is going to be talking about this
idea of the intersection between meritocracy and inclusion, and we
take head on this idea that you know, look, ultimately, meritocracy,
if it's done properly, it's actually a very good idea,
but it needs to be done in a way that
it's quantified and measurable. And we build on the work

(48:44):
from the first book to show how you can expand
it to turn a company to true meritocracy. So I
would ask people to do that. And then the second
thing that I would suggest is I organized I met
you mentioned at the opening. I organized a conference which
we used to call it the Diversity Inclusion Research Conference
or DIRK. We started in two thousand. It's been running
for eight years straight. This year in the recognition of
the fact that literally we've had professors and speakers that

(49:07):
have said, I cannot come to your conference because it
has the word diversity in it. So this year we're
calling it simply DIRK, without saying what it stands for.
We're calling it DIRK twenty five merit plus inclusion, and
a lot of the conversations will be about that. If
you go to the website DIRK spelled DRC dot info,
you will find information about the conference. It's a virtual

(49:28):
event on October thirtieth of this year. It's only a
half day packed with the great information anyone who's interested.
We bring in corporate, academic, government, philanthropy, students. It's a
very very mixed audience and the goal is let's talk
about how research can help to create organizations that are
more inclusive, that are more of a meritocracy, and how

(49:50):
the collaborations between academia, corporate, etc. Can lead to finding
solutions for these very vexing problems that we face.

Speaker 2 (49:58):
That's certainly amazing as well too. We love what you got.
Who do you can serve biggest influence in your career?

Speaker 4 (50:05):
You know, if I had to drop off, say off
the top of my head, possibly the biggest one was
this author whose name is Ijomo Luo. She's written a
couple of books. The first book that she wrote was
called So You Want to Talk About Race? And then
she wrote a second book called Mediocre and these are
they're kind of a punch in the god that you know.
She really she's a black woman. She's an amazing, amazing

(50:26):
writer and she writes his books in which she basically
points out some of the problems as from the point
of view of a black person, but the way that
she does it is so analytical and so powerful. So
those really influenced me profoundly when I first got into
the space, and there have been a number of other people.
Alan pau is another person who's written some books that
have been great. You know this woman meet Amalley coming
there and it's interesting because it's really funny. But actually

(50:48):
find that the people, most of the people that I
truly respect and appreciate tend to be women, not all
of them. They're actually let's say, there is a guy,
Randall Pinkett who's written a book about but also it's
a long the idea of using data for diversity, equity
and inclusion. Lily Jang is actually a very very well

(51:09):
known DII proponent who has written a couple of books.
Their books are actually really really well received because they
combine sort of the motivational side and the pragmatic side,
but so phenomenal people that have done excellent work before me.
I would say Igyomo Lua was kind of the first
one that really sort of opened my eyes in a
way that hadn't been done before.

Speaker 2 (51:26):
That is fantastic, It's amazing. What's the best advice you
can give to aim by at.

Speaker 4 (51:30):
This point, Uh, stop listening to the media and actually,
you know, do some reading and try to avoid the negative.
Whenever you hear somebody saying something negative and critical about
somebody else, to shut it down, turn it off, and
try to find something positive to say about people.

Speaker 2 (51:46):
And I think that's a great idea as well too.
We all need that here. As the multi talent author
of the book Measure Inclusion, Paolow, Guardiana Herold, Mike Winners
show POLLA very big thank you for your time, deepen
abs amazing, learned a lot looking forward him soon, keep
up today, keeping touch Levavy back and watch your website.
How do people contact you, bring people purchase or check.

Speaker 4 (52:06):
Out your book? Thank you so much, Mike, it's been
a real pleasure. You've asked some phenomenal questions and I'm
delighted to have had the pleasure of being on your podcast.

Speaker 2 (52:13):
Thank you and your website again.

Speaker 4 (52:16):
It's so sorry. It's Ali Aria dot tech A L
E R I A dot T e c H and
then d I r C dot info for the conference
and then Measuring Inclusion on Amazon or any bookseller.

Speaker 2 (52:28):
We will certainly check that out once again pile out
very big thanks for John, You've been absent, fantastic looking forward,
having soon keeps update, keeping touch, loveavy back. We wish
our best and polout you definitely have a great fit
you Hey.

Speaker 4 (52:39):
Thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (52:40):
The Mike Wagner Show is powered by Sonicweb Studios. If
you're looking to start or upgrade your online presence, visit
www dot Sonicwebstudios dot com for all of your online needs.
Call one eight hundred three oh three three nine six
zero or visit us online at www dot sonicwebs studios

(53:00):
dot com To get started today, Mention The Mike Wagner
Show and get twenty percent off your project. Sonic Web
Studios take your image to the next level.

Speaker 5 (53:10):
Hey there, Dana Laxa here, American news anchor. Hey, let
me ask you something real quick. Why do you read
a book. You're buying a story, a thought, a message,
and a good book entertains and inspires. And that's exactly
what a Missing by award winning author me On the
Zia does. I have his book right here, and it's
based on real events with relatable characters that hook you

(53:33):
from start to finish. I personally love this book. It's
super powerful and meaningful through You can actually get it
on Amazon right now.

Speaker 2 (53:40):
The Mike Wagner Show is brought to you by Serena
Wagner's book The Sweet Sawmist, now a velve on Emsom.
This book includes thirty exquisite pintings by well known and
unknown painters and King David SOMs. The Sweet Sawmist gives
us a new perspective on his life in this book
through the songs he wrote. His time as a shepherd
in the field is where the book starts, and it
goes on to describe a complicated and turbulent relationship shop
with King Saul, as well as other events. It's a

(54:02):
story of love, betrayal, repentance, and more. It also offers
advice on approaching God and living a life that pleases him.
Check out the book The Sweet Sarmers by Serena Wagner,
now available on Amazon keywords Sweet Salamis Sorena Wager.

Speaker 3 (54:18):
Thanks for listening to The Mike Wagner Show powered by
Sonicweb Studios. Lisit online at Sonicwebstudios dot com for all
your needs. Mike Wagner Show can be heard on Spreaker, Spotify, iHeartRadio, iTunes,
YouTube Anchor, FM Radio Public, and The Mike Wagner Show
dot Com. Please port our program with your donations at
the Mike Wagner Show dot com. Join us again next

(54:40):
time for another great episode of The Mike Wagner Show