NYC author now living in Seattle Claudia Rowe talks about her latest release “Wards of the State: The Long Shadow of American Foster Care” about a woman who’d been arrested for murder at 16, lived in & out of foster & adoptive homes at 10, has ran away, been trafficked & assaulted while painting a visceral survival narrative showing how the system channels children into locked cells and paves a road to reform by exposing a broken system and the searing realities faced by kids in school! Claudia has been writing about the hallways where kids and government clash for 30+ years including racially skewed school discipline that changed the education laws in Washington State, nominated for the Pulitzer Prize for her coverage of Latino gangs, and wrote for the NY Times, Mother Jones, Amazon Original Stories, plus explains the 3 ways to improve foster care! Check out the amazing Claudia Rowe and her latest on all major platforms and www.claudiarowejournalist.com today! #claudiarowe #author #NYC #seattle #wardsofthesate #americanfostercare #fosterhome #school #education #washingtonstate #government #schooldiscipline #pulitzerprize #nytimes #motherjones #spreaker #iheartradio #spotify #applemusic #youtube #anchorfm #bitchute #rumble #mikewagner #themikewagnershow #mikewagnerclaudiarowe #themikewagnershowclaudiarowe
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 5 (01:18):
Heard in a hundred countries.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
We're hearing an amazing lady who's a New York City
author now living in Seattle. Wrote for The New York Times,
Mother Jones, Amazon Original Stories and more. Also about the
hallways where kids and government had class for thirty years.
She's been nominated for a Pelis Surprize on coverage of
the Latino Gangs and also racially skewed a school discipline,
(01:40):
change in educational laws in Washington, and more, covering the
whole education system in the Washington State. New book is
about a girl who's been arrested for murdra at sixteen,
foster Home, Adopted Homes at ten, and more. The book
is called Wards of the State, The Long Shadow of
American Foster Care, Live Lace and Jentlemen, The Plus Duds
(02:02):
and Beatiful Downtown Seattle. The amazing author who wrote for
New York Times, Mother Jones and Moore and talking about
wards of the state, the Long Shove, American foster care,
the multi talent Claudia Role Claudia, good morning, good that flu,
good evening.
Speaker 5 (02:15):
Thanks for joining us today.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Thanks so much for having me, Mike, I'm glad to
be here.
Speaker 5 (02:19):
What's great to have you on board. Clauia Siri are
in New York City.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Authory now in Seattle, wrote for New York Times, Mother Jones,
Amazon original stories about the hallways where kids in government
fought for thirty years, not physicus or anything like that,
the course systems, the school laws, more like that. You
have annam Fan Pieltzer Prize on the coverage of Latino
gangs and also racy skewed school discipline and this led
(02:43):
to a change in educational laws in Washington. You also
received the Washington State Award from true crime memoir The
Spider the Fly and also member of the editor board
for Seattle Times. And you have a new book about
Marianne who had been arrested for murder sixteen in Foster
adopted homes at ten ran away and also trafficked and
assaulted and paints a rather yeah grim survival narrative showing
(03:08):
how the system has been flawed as well. The book
is called Wards of the State, The Long Shadow of
American Foster Care.
Speaker 5 (03:15):
For getting Eli, tell us how I first got started?
Speaker 2 (03:18):
How I first got started?
Speaker 5 (03:20):
Yeah, way back machine, way back.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Are you talking about in journalism?
Speaker 1 (03:24):
No?
Speaker 5 (03:24):
No, no, just way back in general.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
It's like way back Sherman hopping on a time machine.
Or if you're into doctor, who into into tarisk?
Speaker 5 (03:31):
Good doctor?
Speaker 2 (03:33):
But yes, but when started? When started from birth?
Speaker 5 (03:36):
Way back? Way back? Yes? Yeah, birth, way back birth.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Okay, I was born. I grew up in New York City.
I moved to Seattle twenty two years ago and have
not looked back.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
Okay, and tell us about your journey going from New
York to Seattle. What what moment of influencing to going
to Seattle.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
I think I needed a change. I think sometimes we
all need to sort of throw off the ghosts of
the past. And I thought it was time for me
to see the West and make some changes.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
And I think it made some amazing change as well too.
And you'll tell us how I got started, especially in journalism.
That's been your law as well.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Yeah, absolutely, since I was a little kid. I've been
really fascinated by motivation, what drives a person to make
the decisions that they make. I think that's what drew
me to journalism, a way of getting deep and understanding,
trying to get into people's heads and really understand what
is driving anyone. I mean, even people who make really
(04:44):
really destructive or questionable decisions have an idea in their
mind about what they're doing. And I am really interested
in trying to understand that and where those ideas come from,
how people are formed and shaped.
Speaker 5 (04:57):
And so that.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Early editor said, if you want to understand why people
do things, you should be looking in the schools. And
so I started pretty early as an education reporter, and
that led, perhaps not surprisingly, to a lot of juvenile
justice reporting and then some reporting on the child welfare system.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
And here we are, Oh wow, what first got you
interested in the child warfare system and also the foster
care and everything like that?
Speaker 5 (05:26):
What actually got you interested?
Speaker 2 (05:29):
I honestly, you know, when I landed in Seattle, that
was it was part of my beat. I was working
at the Seattle Post Intelligencer. I was covering social issues.
For me, social issues meant sort of race and class issues,
and as part of that, I was covering the state
(05:50):
child welfare agency, and that is really what pointed me
towards foster care. I had done a lot of work
writing about juven like I said, juvenile and youth crime.
It wasn't until I sort of stumbled into the case
of mary Anne Atkins, the teenager who's sort of the
opening character of this book, which follows six kids. It's
(06:12):
not just about mary Anne, but Marianne sort of brought
me into it, and I thought I was watching a
murder sentencing. She was being tried for a murder that
she committed at sixteen. I thought I was going to
be hearing that. Unexpectedly, the sentencing, which should have been
(06:34):
like a two hour quick two hour proceeding, ended up
stretching over three days. By the end of that three days,
I realized, Oh wow, this is not just, you know,
a crime story. This is tied to something much bigger,
and it's the foster care system. And that's how I
sort of started looking really deep at it and what.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
Is specifically wrong with the foster care system. Yeah, how
do you know it was broken? And how broken is it?
Speaker 5 (06:59):
Would you say?
Speaker 2 (07:00):
So? Mari Anne's lawyers, her defense team was attempting to
say that their argument was that the foster care system
bore some blame for mary Anne's crime, that what had
happened to her in the system had shaped her behavior.
That argument, obviously was not terror was not really successful
(07:23):
with the judge who sentenced her to nineteen years. And
you know, she had been a teenager when she committed
this crime, so she got a hefty sentence. It was murder,
of course, so understandable. But the argument of the system
is causing this, you know, the government foster care system
(07:46):
is sort of pushing kids toward these this kind of
behavior or this kind of condition that would enable this behavior.
That was really intriguing to me. So the first thing
I wanted to do was figure out is mary Anne unusual?
It was her path through foster care strange in some way?
It was not at all. It was totally typical. It
(08:08):
was completely typical. Obviously, not every kid in foster care
is gonna do what she did and shoot someone in
the head, but many, many kids in foster care run
from their placements as mary Anne had done. She was
on the run from her quote unquote on the run.
They're not really running, but they're not where they're supposed
to be when she committed this crime. Also, her path
(08:32):
up to that point was really typical. She had been
in about five foster homes. She had been adopted from
foster care, and then returned to foster care by her
adoptive family. This is surprisingly common. Marianne herself had no
idea was possible to be unadopted. I didn't even know
when I started all this, but it is possible. It
(08:54):
happens a lot, and it happens a lot with kids
adopted from the foster care system because they're adopted. Families
are not prepared for the kind of needs that they
have and the kind of intense behaviors that they often
bring because they are not accustomed to growing up in
a sort of traditional family. For Marianne, it was really
(09:16):
really awkward. Sitting at family dinners was felt very strange
to her. She wasn't used to sort of that kind
of traditional family setup. Her path was really typical, about
five foster homes, adoption back to foster care, running from
foster care, all this stuff really standard. And then I
(09:37):
just really wanted to understand, you know, to try to
get in her head, and Marianne said, fine, great do
my story. She wanted to be understood, she wanted to
be known, but I needed help in sort of interpreting
her life, and the book went from there. It was
(09:58):
an effort to understand her led me to all the
other stuff in the book.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
And would you say some of her life was like it.
She's been five foster homes, she ran away. She's also
been assaulted, which seems to happen foster homes. Sexual abuse,
physical abuse, bullying and everything like that were some of
the things that Marianne had went through.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Yeah, none of those things. Actually, she was not abused
in foster care. And the book is not saying that
kids are abused in foster care. That is not what
I'm saying. I'm saying that the system itself, the act
of moving a kid from home to home to home
and undercutting any chance that they have to bond with
(10:37):
anyone in any kind of ongoing stable manner. This is
the damage of the foster care system. It has really
serious effects on kid's brain development, on neurology, on brain chemistry.
That's what I'm saying. Marianne in fact, loved the last
foster mom that she was living with. This was her
(10:59):
favorite foster and she was yet chronically on the run,
even though that was the place she liked the best,
because by that point her her behavior, like that of
many many kids in foster care, is kind of a
fight or flight, very sort of reflex kind of behavior.
So that's what I am not saying that foster care
(11:22):
is rife with abusers.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Okay, it is, right, Yeah, we're double checking app because
there have been some cases of foster kids getting abused, bullying,
everything like that, So I just wanted to double check.
And then this fight for flight thing that they seem
to associate, do you think that could be ruined their system?
Like it could be a possible abandonment, something could happen
to them or I'm just thinking about this, what's like
(11:45):
the exact root cause for fight for flight?
Speaker 5 (11:47):
You know, going from Fossholme to foster home like these kids,
you know, it's like am I gonna run stay or
anything like that.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
I think often when kids run from a placement, really
what they're doing often is trying to find It's not
like as much running from something, but trying to find something,
and they often are trying to find their biological parent.
Got it, Okay, they're trying to find their parent, or
(12:15):
they're trying to find like other kids who understand them.
So often it's other kids on the street, other kids
in foster care who have also run. They're looking for
some kind of in fact connection. Okay, at the system
itself is constantly undercutting connection.
Speaker 5 (12:34):
Right, Yeah, And of course what can we do to
improve the foster system.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
We could. We could realign it to encourage connection, which
would mean not moving kids around so much. It would
mean allowing or even encouraging foster parents to bond with
the foster kid. A lot of foster parents don't because
they know the child. If they're not going to adopt,
(13:00):
they know that kid is likely going to be moving on,
so they'll sort of shield off their hearts to a degree. Yes,
they're providing food and shelter for the child, but like
mary Anne's foster mom at the end had told all
the kids that lived in her home, do not call
(13:20):
me mom, call me Auntie, she could no longer deal
with the sort of bonding and then ripping of the
bond and feeling attached to a kid and the kid leaves.
So foster care could improve things, I think by encouraging bonds.
So like there's kinship care where where the state will
(13:43):
give the child to a relative if their biological parent
can can't handle them, can't parent them, the state will
sometimes more and more give the child to a relative
or a close family friend. These things used to be
really discouraged, like if you're from a problematic home, that
should be like obliterated from your life. So no relatives,
(14:07):
no family friends. We're going to give you like a
new life. And that is totally unrealistic. That's not how
kids work. That's why kids are constantly on the run
trying to find their parent, even if it's a parent
who hurt them. Bonds are just they're there. You know,
they're imprinted. They don't necessarily just go away if you
remove the kid from that environment. So or all, that's
(14:33):
what I would think if the system were aligned to
encourage or to acknowledge the importance of attachment and bonding
for brain development, not because it's nice, but because it
actually has chemical effects in all humans' brains, yours and mine.
And if it doesn't happen right, you see that in
(14:54):
really problematic behavior.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
And also that there's ways of fixing it. But to
be involved in terms of fixing the system, everybody.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
I mean anybody. I don't mean that to sound flippant.
I mean, you know, federal and state officials can do
things such as approving government support for kin for relatives
who take in children through foster care. So it used
to be as very common like grandma might take you know,
(15:25):
her grandchildren in if their parent, grandma's daughters say, can't
parent the children, so grandma takes the grandchildren. That's really typical, right,
But normally, you know, she's not getting any money for that.
She's draining her retirement savings two parent children at age
seventy five that she never intended to be you know,
(15:46):
dealing with when she's a senior citizen. Now in some
state and increasingly state government is allowing foster care licensing
for just that kid and just that relative, So you
could get some government support to care for the child
so that you're not draining your retirement funds if you're
(16:07):
there relative. So that's one way that a state government
and federal as well could help. I think I think
more generally, some of this stuff that that is brain
development and brain science shows up in school, like with
really poor attention or go really poor, it affects sleep patterns, right,
(16:32):
So if.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
You're too much I've seen read about that, you know,
you know development like that, if you're like going from
home to home abuse, or you never know where your
next meal is going to come from, next bed, that
can also affect it disrupt parents are crazy exactly.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
So I guess I would say that when when all
of us see kids who seem kind of difficult or impossible,
they're not paying attention, they're not going to sleep when
they're supposed to do, they're not waking up when they're
supposed to, they're not managing their emotions emotions as we
would like. I just think it sort of behooves all
of us to step back and try, and I'm not
(17:08):
saying it's easy, but to try and look a little closer,
try to understand what is really going on with a
kid because they are not because you feel sorry for them,
but because you want to understand. And if you can
understand what is driving behavior, sometimes your response to it
might be different, and.
Speaker 5 (17:26):
Certainly is as well too.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
And we'll talk about Mara, Marianne and plus one of
our six children in the book Words of State, The
Long Shadow of American Foster Care or Claudia Row. But
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Owners Show dot Com. You're here then, amazing multi talent author.
We used to live in New York City now in
seatle for New York Times, Mother Jones and Moore, Claudia
row here on The Mike Wedner's Show with words of
the State, The Long Shallow American Foster Care before you
get back to that you want you on taking in
some recognition, nominated for Pulitzer Prize on coverage of the
(19:58):
Tino Game as well. And the racely skewed school discipline
which led to change in education laws in Washington.
Speaker 5 (20:06):
Two of the big moments that you can share with us.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
You want me to talk about those stories?
Speaker 5 (20:13):
Sure? Those?
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Okay? At the time that I was looking at it,
which was in sort of the around twenty fifteen with
I was looking at school discipline, and it was really
clear that, you know, in areas that are subjective, like defiance, right,
different teachers might define defiance in different ways. So that's
(20:39):
what we were looking at, sort of, you know, some
things are really clear cut, and but what we were
looking at is in areas where a teacher can make
a subjective judgment, it seemed like children of color, particularly
black kids, were getting expelled and or suspended long term,
(21:00):
suspended from school at rates far higher than white kids
for the same problem, right, so called defiance. So we
were able to do some really good data analysis we
showed this, and then Washington State changed laws really for
the very youngest children, not high school students, but they
(21:21):
were saying that you can't suspend like a second grader,
but teachers were and they still even even younger. And
this happens everywhere. It wasn't just a Seattle or a
Washington State thing. It happens everywhere, and it is really
surprising that children, you know, five, six, seven, could be
(21:43):
suspended from school for you know, many days, and that
of course affects learning and if you're if you miss school,
you're going to be behind and your behavior is probably
going to be worse when you come back. So we
laid all this out, we did the data analysis, and
the state lifelegislature made some adjustments to laws. I don't
know if it's actually really helping, but yes, they did
(22:06):
do that.
Speaker 5 (22:07):
I did talk to some people about that. It's been
the same pattern.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
It's like the more you suspend a kid, the further
behind they get, and the more intense the anger at
guests or they get more frightened and everything. And that
seemed to be having a very very adverse effect on
it as well too. And your wright's getting me more
of a yeah, really problem mag though.
Speaker 5 (22:26):
I'll tell you sure.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
The other story I think you asked about was Latino
Youth Gangs. Yeah, what can I tell you about that?
At the time, which was around two thousand and six
or so, six seven eight in there, maybe two thousand
and eight or nine. Yeah, that series ran in two
(22:50):
thousand and eight, and Seattle was having a pretty significant
gang problem at that point. It's very cyclical and had
sort of happened before and it was happening again. It's
multi generational, so at that point in two thousand and
eight was just sort of the latest generation, but a
lot of teenagers, a lot of kids were getting killed.
It's definitely happening again. And at the time I was
(23:14):
looking really closely at it. Again, similar to foster Care,
I really wanted to understand with foster care, what does
it feel like to be a kid on the street.
And with the gangs, I really wanted to understand, you're
fourteen years old, You're in a gang. What exactly does
that mean?
Speaker 3 (23:30):
Like?
Speaker 2 (23:30):
What do you do? What are their dues? Are their jobs?
Like what really does it mean? So that was what
prompted that series. I really wanted to understand what is
that life?
Speaker 5 (23:41):
Right?
Speaker 3 (23:41):
And also too in your latest book as well too,
it paints a picture of you know, Mary Anne, who
had been arrested for murder.
Speaker 5 (23:48):
We did talk about that in and out.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
Foster adoptive homes at ten ran away and also trafficked
as well too and assaulted, and that's going to be
like a really problematic thing too, you know, foster children,
traffic and everything else, human trafficking, that's gonna be pretty huge, right.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
So one of the things about the book early on
was I knew some data, and you know, the data
is the numbers are pretty shocking. There's a really reputable
study out of the Midwest that found fifty nine percent
of kids in foster care when they age out of
the system at eighteen, fifty nine percent will have been
(24:27):
locked up by the age of twenty six. That could
have been during foster care, like in juvie. Like if
you run away, this is what you're talking about, Like
if you run away from a placement. Kids run, they
get hungry, right, they get hungry. They have no money,
so they shoplift, and sometimes they are trafficked, or they
trade sex for money or shelter whatever, that's trafficking. So
(24:52):
if you run from a placement, the cops are going
to pick you up eventually for shoplifting or for you know,
any number of things. You're going to juvenile detention. There
you go, You just got locked up, right, So that
one reason is that that number fifty nine percent is
so high, and that is so high. Meanwhile, you know,
(25:13):
fewer than five percent of kids who ate out of
foster care ever earn for your college degree. So fifty
nine percent lock up fewer than five percent college degree.
So that those numbers sort of blew my mind. And
what was so incredible about it is. It wasn't like
a recent spike or you know, a newer trend or something.
(25:35):
This has been the case forever. So I wanted to
find out what are the things that lead to those numbers?
What Why so much lock up? Why so much incarceration?
So running away is one reason. Also failed adoptions or
broke in adoptions. This is what happened with Marianne. When
(25:57):
kids are adopted out of foster care and then there's
a problem with that placement or with that adoptive family,
and the family sends them back. That rejection even if
the kid didn't like that adoption, didn't like that home,
the rejection is profound and it has a real effect
on behavior. So that's another one really common to kids
(26:18):
who end up either homeless or locked up after foster care.
The third one was group homes. If you are not
adopted by the time you're like twelve or thirteen, you're
very likely to end up in a group home. And
again it's a lot of fighting in group homes. Kids
fight one another, they assault staff, the police come. You
just got locked up again. That's another way toward lock up.
(26:41):
And the fourth thing is aging out at eighteen, usually
without support. So, like fifty percent of kids in foster
care never get a high school diploma. They drop out
of high school. So you're eighteen years old, at best
you have a high school diploma, but a very spotty
education because you've moved around so much, different schools, different districts. Right,
(27:05):
and you're eighteen, you might not even have a high
school diploma. You have no family that can support you,
you have no job skills, like you know, like, how
are you going to support yourself? Right? And the state goes,
thanks very much, goodbye. It's when you look at that,
it's not so surprising that the numbers of kids leaving
(27:25):
foster care to live on the street, homeless or in lockup,
like because they commit a crime. It's not that surprising
when you look at how common these these experiences are
for foster kids. And meanwhile, the US is spending thirty
billion dollars every year for those outcomes, thirty billion dollars
(27:49):
a year for fifty nine percent of kids getting locked up,
in fewer than five percent getting a college degree, and
for that we spend thirty billion a year. So that
just seemed crazy to me. And I found all that data,
and I did all that research. Then I needed to
show it through the stories of young people, and it
showed me how this happens.
Speaker 5 (28:11):
We already know about mary Anne and what she went through.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
You've also mentioned about six other children as well too,
and maybe you can talk about you know, a couple
as well too. Similar Marianne's a little bit different, different outcomes,
and everything's not mary Anne.
Speaker 5 (28:25):
It's just some of the other six children. Book. Sure.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
So when I was trying to understand, I told you,
I was trying to understand is she typical or is
she some kind of aberration? And I was talking with
somebody who had been incarcerated, just you know, a guy
who had been incarcerated. I was explaining, you know, this
project to him and he said, oh, you got to
talk to my friend Art Longworth. And Art Longworth also
(28:51):
was in foster care, and very shortly after he was
ejected from the system decades ago. This is in the
nineteen eighties, he committed a murder. He got a life sentence,
and in prison, as a middle aged man, he was
sort of realizing the same thing I was on the outside.
(29:12):
He was like, Wow, everyone around me is a guy
I knew growing up in foster Care in the group homes. Wow,
it's either them or now it's their kids. So he,
in you know, a maximum security prison with a life sentence,
was seeing all these other guys also from foster care,
and Art goes, wait a minute, this, we need to
(29:36):
quantify this, we need to show this, we need to
do something. So Art convened a group of inmates to
talk about this exact thing, this foster care prison overlap.
So that's when I reached out to him. I heard
from this guy, Oh, you got to talk to Art Longworth.
So I emailed him in prison initially to sort of understand,
(30:00):
to hear what he was seeing in prison, and for him,
I thought maybe he could help me understand Marianne because
he also had been a kid on the street and
he also had committed murder, and I wanted to understand this.
Art eventually becomes a character in the story because one
thing about Art is a really good writer. Art became
a writer while locked up, and he was a really
(30:22):
good writer, and he was able to write about his
experience of being a teenager in a way that I
had not seen articulated before. So I needed Art to
explain this experience. So he became another character in the book.
I could go on there are a million of them.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
Oh, absolutely, yeah. I like to hear about maybe a
couple more as well too.
Speaker 5 (30:48):
This is rather interesting.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
Okay, well, I want to say that not every person
in this book is locked up or is even in
tru There are some people who have been incredibly successful
despite a very rough start in foster care. There are
some folks in this book who have become lawyers, and
(31:11):
one of them became a powerful activist. His name is
Sixto Cancel, which is a very cool and interesting name.
Sixto was in foster care in Bridgeport, Connecticut. He's much
younger than Art. He's now in his thirties. He also
had a terrible adoption experience, adopted out of foster care,
(31:34):
terrible adoption experience, begged his social worker to be removed
from the adoptive home and to go back into foster care.
So he asked to go back into foster care. But
he was miserable, was really really miserable and determined very
young as a teenager. In you know, Bridgeport is a
(31:55):
tough town. It is a tough city, and Sixto just
you know, he told me the story about being at
the bus station and crying. This is like a sixteen
year old boy, and he's a big kid, you know,
crying at a bus station, praying to God that all
this pain would someday mean something. And that is what
(32:18):
he did. He made himself an activist and he became
a regular at the White House and worked has worked
with three administrations.
Speaker 5 (32:28):
Nice.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
He's not even thirty five yet, really really young and
came from foster care, attempted to go to college, didn't
finish college, and instead went into this sort of world
of activism to change foster care. That's that's the activism.
So that's another one.
Speaker 5 (32:47):
And there's three ways to improve it. And what are they?
We'll find what I met with them? Claudi role of
Words of the State.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
He listened to the Mic Wedders Show at the Mic
Weadshow dot compowered by Star Cub Studios. Write to by
official sponsor Mike Waders Show Interash Warwrick, author Mea Mulson
sa Missing the Sweet Thomas by Serena Wagon based on
life of David King, David Psalms, three Squizz of Pangs,
Amazon dot Com, keywork Sweet Samas Serena Wagner would be
a back multitl author Claudia Row of Words of the
State after this time.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
The Mike Wagner Show is powered by Sonicweb Studios. If
you're looking to start or upgrade your online presence, visit
www dot Sonicwebstudios dot com for all of your online needs.
Call one eight hundred three oh three three nine six
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(33:36):
com to get started today, Mention The Mike Wagner Show
and get twenty percent off your project. Sonicweb Studios take
your image to the next level.
Speaker 6 (33:45):
Hey there, Dana Laxa here, American news anchor. Hey, let
me ask you something real quick.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Why do you read a book.
Speaker 6 (33:51):
You're buying a story, a thought, a message, and a
good book entertains and inspires. And that's exactly what missing
by award winning author me on that Zia does. I
have his book right here, and it's based on real
events with relatable characters that hook you from start to finish.
I personally love this book. It's super powerful and meaningful
(34:13):
through you can actually get it on Amazon right now.
Speaker 3 (34:15):
The Mike Wagner Show is brought to you by Serena
Wagner's book, The Sweet Sawmist now availbon amsoon. This book
includes thirty exquisite pintings by well known and unknown painters
and King David Soalms. The Sweet Salmist gives us a
new perspective on his life in this book through the
songs he wrote. His time as a shepherd in the
field is where the book starts, and it goes on
to describe his complicated and turbulent relationship with King Saul,
(34:36):
as well as other events. It's a story of love, betrayal, repentance,
and more. It also offers advice on approaching God and
living a life that pleases him. Check out the book
The Sweet Sawmist by Serena Wagner, now available on Amazon
keywords Sweet Saalmist Serena Wagner. Hey, Hey, this is Ray
Powers and boy, are you in luck?
Speaker 5 (34:55):
Right place, right time?
Speaker 3 (34:57):
Tuned into the Mike Wagner Show.
Speaker 4 (35:00):
You heard me.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
We're back to author Claudia Rowe of Wars of State,
The Long Shadow of American Foster Care here on the
Mike wad In your show, and we talked about some
of the stories about foster care, talk about Marianne and
a couple ers who've been through foster care system, and
there's three ways to improve foster care.
Speaker 5 (35:19):
And what are those three ways are Claudia, Well, I.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Would you know, Look, first of all, I would say
there are a lot of people who have correctly pointed
out that we for a long time have had too
many kids in foster care. The numbers are beginning to
go down, but it is still true that a lot
of kids are brought into foster care essentially for poverty.
(35:46):
I'll just tell you straight up, there's like no middle
class kids in foster care, certainly no affluent kids or just.
Speaker 5 (35:52):
No middle class period. That's the sad part. No middle class.
You look poor or wrench. There's no mile anymore.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
But I will say that you know, in affluent families
there is addiction, abuse, neglect, for sure, those kids are
taken into foster care. The kids that are brought into
foster care are always kids in low income or poor families.
And you know, you're not technically supposed to take a
kid into foster care because they have housing instability or
(36:24):
not enough food. Really, what you should be doing is
helping that family have food. You're not supposed to be
taking kids into foster care for extreme poverty. But it
happens all the time, and it used to happen a lot.
And so people who say there are too many children
in foster care, that's what they're looking at. Families that
were separated primarily because of extreme poverty, sometimes substance abuse
(36:48):
as well. But you know, there are a lot of
middle class or rich homes where there are you know,
there's all kinds of substance abuse going on, those kids
are not removed. So I'm just saying, all right, you
asked about improving foster care. First of all, yes, it
is true that there are too many kids brought into
(37:08):
foster care. It is also true that there are some
kids who cannot be safe at home, who cannot be
safe at their biological home. So number one, focus foster
care just on them. Number Two, foster care is really
more of a more of a holding system than a
(37:28):
healing system, and it really needs to be sort of
retooled to focus on healing these kids, because we now
all acknowledge there's trauma that's brought them into the system.
The system itself is traumatic just being in the system,
even if there's no abuse, just being moved around you're
(37:51):
always the new kid at school. Everyone says, you know,
where are you from? What do your parents do? I mean,
this is just a constant experience for kids in foster
care because they're always moving around. This is not good
for kids, especially when they don't really want to talk
about who their parents are, where they came from necessarily.
So I would say, first shrink the system, then make
(38:16):
it less of a holding system or a way station,
and more geared toward actually helping these kids, actually healing them.
And what heals them and helps them is bonds connection,
stable connection to a trusting, trustworthy adult. This is actually
(38:37):
rather hard to find in foster care. I mean, it
sounds so easy and obvious, but it's not so easy
and obvious.
Speaker 3 (38:43):
And I think that's a really good point as well too,
that there's also some talk that, you know, raising the
limit to eighteen staff kick them out eighteen.
Speaker 5 (38:53):
Some are talking about moving up to.
Speaker 3 (38:55):
Twenty five, you know, just gives the more time to
really really guess Davis as well.
Speaker 5 (39:00):
From eighteen to twenty five.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
Well, what there is is extended foster care, and that
can cover a kid up to twenty one. Often there
are conditions for that. You have to be in school
or employed or something, and typically foster. When foster kids
get the chance to get out of the system, they're
so tired of the government in every corner of their
(39:23):
life since they've been a child. Many of them are like, well,
I'm not down with your conditions and your requirements for
this extended foster care. I need to get out. So
a lot of kids who are eligible for extended foster
care do not opt for it. I think what you're
talking about with twenty five might be something that Marianne experienced,
(39:45):
which is called juvenile rehabilitation to twenty five, which is
an effort in Washington State and a couple of other states.
It's like less than it's like half a dozen. It's
very small. This is an effort to handle youth crime
a slightly different way. And what it is in Washington
State is a law, a law passed pretty recently about
(40:07):
seven years ago, that says, if you are charged, if
you are a minor, like Marianne was charged as an adult,
because of the seriousness of your crime, generally we will
let you stay in a youth facility, a youth prison,
I should say, it's a youth lock up until age
(40:29):
twenty five, and the thinking of so you're no longer
a minor, but we're The thinking behind that is again
brain science, and it's saying, you know, broadly and sort
of the US, we now accept that kids' brains are
still developing. You know, no one's going to say an
eighteen year old is a fully mature adult.
Speaker 3 (40:49):
Right, It's given me more common sense at this point.
Speaker 5 (40:52):
Old they'll still you don't think.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
So much, right, they do incredibly dumb things. So so
the thinking is, if you know, kids brain are still
molding and shaping into their mid twenties, and if you
put them in a hardcore prison, adult prison, they're gonna
mold in shape to that environment. And if you put
them in a youth facility with more emphasis on education
(41:14):
and counseling and training, job training, you know, a more
of a healing or therapeutic environment, the thinking is, well,
then their brains will shape and shift to that. That
will be the influence. So it's like a reasonable idea.
In practice, it's had a lot of problems. I'll be honest.
(41:34):
For Marianne, it did a lot of good things. Okay,
I think it did a lot of what it did,
I'll just say it's not that the jr. To twenty
five was so great. It's not so great. It's not
like great therapy or great education. It's not. It could be,
but it's not what But she did change in a
(41:56):
positive way, and I think what that shows really is,
in fact, for her, prison was like almost the first
real stability she had known she was going to be
fed every day, no one was going to jump her,
you know, she was not going to be on the street.
She was going to have the same adult working with her,
(42:17):
her case manager all the time. Stability. So what that
showed and she did change, and what that showed really
was more about foster care and the instability of foster
care and its effects on behavior, because as soon as
there was more stability, she really changed.
Speaker 3 (42:36):
And I think that was really important as well. I
think it hit the nail on the head. Claudia, And
where can when you find your book in the meantime,
and what's your website?
Speaker 2 (42:45):
My website is claudiaojournalist dot com. And you can find
the book on Amazon or Barnes and Noble or bookshop
dot org or your local independence store where anywhere you
buy books, all right.
Speaker 3 (43:00):
Or certainly check that out here at the multitowner Claudia
Roa of Words of the State, The Long Shadow of
American foster Care. Here the Mike Wader shows us a
few more things. What else can we expect from you
twenty twenty five and beyond?
Speaker 2 (43:11):
Oh man, I am I am thinking about some stuff,
but it's still just sort of gelling. It takes me
a while to come up with ideas. I do want
to leave your listeners with one point. So I've talked
about a lot here about the connection between foster care
and criminal and crime, right, criminal behavior. So there are victims.
(43:36):
I mean people say, oh, the foster kids are victims. Yes,
but they've victimized people, they have hurt people. Right, there
are victims here, and it's important to recognize that and
acknowledge that. And what I would say to anyone who
raises that question, because any thinking person would, is look, whatever,
(43:57):
there are some tough stories in this book, But what
ever choices these kids may made, whatever their sort of
twisted paths may have been. Every single person in this book,
including you know, people who committed murder everything, everyone talked
to me because they wanted to make foster care better
(44:18):
for the kids. Coming up behind them, and we talk
about lack of empathy, and we talk about sociopaths and irredeemable. No,
every one of these people, despite some of their questionable decisions,
wanted to make things better for the kids coming up
behind them. And I think that that is really, I
(44:39):
don't know, kind of hopeful in a way.
Speaker 3 (44:41):
Okay, we're certainly looking forward to that. And who do
you consider biggest influence in a career.
Speaker 2 (44:46):
Biggest influence in my career?
Speaker 5 (44:48):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (44:49):
Wow, there are a million writers. That is a hard one.
Biggest influence in my career. I have sort of piloted
my own ship lot. I like, there are writers that
I like, I don't know lately I'm reading, you know,
Barbara King Sliver had a fantastic book Demon Copperhead, which
(45:12):
is fiction, but it is partly about foster care and
it really charged me up. So I would say that
writers are are are what inspire me and have probably
influenced my career.
Speaker 3 (45:28):
Okay, that's really amazing as well. What's the best advice
you can give to a boy at this point?
Speaker 2 (45:33):
The best advice I can give to somebody who wants
to be a writer, or just anybody just in general. Okay,
this is my advice. Look closer. You see something that
repulses you, frightens you, repels you, makes you go h.
I would say, instead of doing that, instead of pulling away,
(45:53):
look closer, try to understand. Try to see inside that
person and understand and why they're doing what they're doing.
It will change the way you feel about yourself, about
the world, the way you understand things. Book closer, and.
Speaker 5 (46:09):
I think that's really good advice as well too from
our journalists.
Speaker 3 (46:12):
We're here at the amazing Claudia Row of Words of
the State, The Long Shadow of American Foster Care here
on the Mike Winners Show.
Speaker 5 (46:18):
Claudia, very big, thanks for timing. You've been absolute fantastic.
Speaker 3 (46:20):
Learned a lot looking for hid soon keeps up today,
keep in touch and what's your website?
Speaker 5 (46:25):
How do people contact you? Boring people purchase or check
out your book? Thank you?
Speaker 2 (46:30):
Anybody can come see me at claudiaojournalist dot com. I'm
also on Twitter or x at Row Report and they
can buy the book get Amazon or Barnes and Noble
or bookshop dot org or your local independent bookstore.
Speaker 5 (46:46):
We will certainly check that out as well. Once day
and clad very big. Thanks you time.
Speaker 3 (46:49):
You've been absolute fantastic looking forehand soon keeps up today,
keep in touch, live at you back.
Speaker 5 (46:54):
We wish I'll best in Claudia. You definitely have a
great future. Hey you, thank you.
Speaker 1 (46:58):
The Mike Wagner Show is powered by Sonicweb Studios. If
you're looking to start or upgrade your online presence, visit
www dot Sonicwebstudios dot com for all of your online needs.
Call one eight hundred three oh three three nine six
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(47:19):
com to get started Today, mention The Mike Wagner Show
and get twenty percent off your project. Sonicweb Studios take
your image to the next level.
Speaker 6 (47:28):
Hey there, Dana Laxa here, American news anchor. Hey, let
me ask you something real quick.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
Why do you read a book.
Speaker 6 (47:34):
You're buying a story, a thought, a message, and a
good book entertains and inspires. And that's exactly what a
Missing By award winning author me On the Zia does.
I have his book right here, and it's based on
real events with relatable characters that hook you from start
to finish. I personally love this book. It's super powerful
(47:55):
and meaningful through You can actually get it on Amazon
right now.
Speaker 3 (47:58):
The Mike Wagner Show is held. You buy Serena Wagner's
book The Sweet Sawmist now availve on Emson. This book
includes thirty exquisite pinions by well known and unknown painters
and King David songs. The sweets Amist gives us a
new perspective ans life in this book through the songs
he wrote. His time as a shepherd in the field
is will. The book starts, and it goes on to
describe his complicated and turbulent relationship with King Saul, as
(48:19):
well as other events. It's a story of love, betrayal, repentance,
and more. It also offers advice on approaching God and
living a life that pleases him. Check out the book
The sweets Homist by Serena Wagner, now available on Amazon.
Keywords Sweet Sawmis Sorena Wagner.
Speaker 4 (48:36):
Thanks for listening to The Mike Wagner Show powered by
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(48:59):
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Speaker 2 (00:03):
Hi. This is Mia. Morsons are also known as Mea
No Time for Love. Check out my latest book Missing,
available on Amazon.
Speaker 3 (00:10):
The Mike Wagner Show also brought to by The Sweet
So Much by Serena Wagner, Available on Amazon. Highlighted up
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It's now time for The Mike Wagner Show. Powered by
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So sit back, relax, and enjoy another great episode of
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Speaker 3 (00:51):
Ever btes Mike for the Mike Wagner Show, power by
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(01:12):
com keywords Sweet Samas, Serena Wagner, and check out the
Mike Henners Show, Mike Winnershow dot Com, forty podcast platforms.
Speaker 5 (01:18):
Heard in a hundred countries.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
We're hearing an amazing lady who's a New York City
author now living in Seattle. Wrote for The New York Times,
Mother Jones, Amazon Original Stories and more. Also about the
hallways where kids and government had class for thirty years.
She's been nominated for a Pelis Surprize on coverage of
the Latino Gangs and also racially skewed a school discipline,
(01:40):
change in educational laws in Washington, and more, covering the
whole education system in the Washington State. New book is
about a girl who's been arrested for murdra at sixteen,
foster Home, Adopted Homes at ten, and more. The book
is called Wards of the State, The Long Shadow of
American Foster Care, Live Lace and Jentlemen, The Plus Duds
(02:02):
and Beatiful Downtown Seattle. The amazing author who wrote for
New York Times, Mother Jones and Moore and talking about
wards of the state, the Long Shove, American foster care,
the multi talent Claudia Role Claudia, good morning, good that flu,
good evening.
Speaker 5 (02:15):
Thanks for joining us today.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Thanks so much for having me, Mike, I'm glad to
be here.
Speaker 5 (02:19):
What's great to have you on board. Clauia Siri are
in New York City.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Authory now in Seattle, wrote for New York Times, Mother Jones,
Amazon original stories about the hallways where kids in government
fought for thirty years, not physicus or anything like that,
the course systems, the school laws, more like that. You
have annam Fan Pieltzer Prize on the coverage of Latino
gangs and also racy skewed school discipline and this led
(02:43):
to a change in educational laws in Washington. You also
received the Washington State Award from true crime memoir The
Spider the Fly and also member of the editor board
for Seattle Times. And you have a new book about
Marianne who had been arrested for murder sixteen in Foster
adopted homes at ten ran away and also trafficked and
assaulted and paints a rather yeah grim survival narrative showing
(03:08):
how the system has been flawed as well. The book
is called Wards of the State, The Long Shadow of
American Foster Care.
Speaker 5 (03:15):
For getting Eli, tell us how I first got started?
Speaker 2 (03:18):
How I first got started?
Speaker 5 (03:20):
Yeah, way back machine, way back.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Are you talking about in journalism?
Speaker 1 (03:24):
No?
Speaker 5 (03:24):
No, no, just way back in general.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
It's like way back Sherman hopping on a time machine.
Or if you're into doctor, who into into tarisk?
Speaker 5 (03:31):
Good doctor?
Speaker 2 (03:33):
But yes, but when started? When started from birth?
Speaker 5 (03:36):
Way back? Way back? Yes? Yeah, birth, way back birth.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Okay, I was born. I grew up in New York City.
I moved to Seattle twenty two years ago and have
not looked back.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
Okay, and tell us about your journey going from New
York to Seattle. What what moment of influencing to going
to Seattle.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
I think I needed a change. I think sometimes we
all need to sort of throw off the ghosts of
the past. And I thought it was time for me
to see the West and make some changes.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
And I think it made some amazing change as well too.
And you'll tell us how I got started, especially in journalism.
That's been your law as well.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Yeah, absolutely, since I was a little kid. I've been
really fascinated by motivation, what drives a person to make
the decisions that they make. I think that's what drew
me to journalism, a way of getting deep and understanding,
trying to get into people's heads and really understand what
is driving anyone. I mean, even people who make really
(04:44):
really destructive or questionable decisions have an idea in their
mind about what they're doing. And I am really interested
in trying to understand that and where those ideas come from,
how people are formed and shaped.
Speaker 5 (04:57):
And so that.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
Early editor said, if you want to understand why people
do things, you should be looking in the schools. And
so I started pretty early as an education reporter, and
that led, perhaps not surprisingly, to a lot of juvenile
justice reporting and then some reporting on the child welfare system.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
And here we are, Oh wow, what first got you
interested in the child warfare system and also the foster
care and everything like that?
Speaker 5 (05:26):
What actually got you interested?
Speaker 2 (05:29):
I honestly, you know, when I landed in Seattle, that
was it was part of my beat. I was working
at the Seattle Post Intelligencer. I was covering social issues.
For me, social issues meant sort of race and class issues,
and as part of that, I was covering the state
(05:50):
child welfare agency, and that is really what pointed me
towards foster care. I had done a lot of work
writing about juven like I said, juvenile and youth crime.
It wasn't until I sort of stumbled into the case
of mary Anne Atkins, the teenager who's sort of the
opening character of this book, which follows six kids. It's
(06:12):
not just about mary Anne, but Marianne sort of brought
me into it, and I thought I was watching a
murder sentencing. She was being tried for a murder that
she committed at sixteen. I thought I was going to
be hearing that. Unexpectedly, the sentencing, which should have been
(06:34):
like a two hour quick two hour proceeding, ended up
stretching over three days. By the end of that three days,
I realized, Oh wow, this is not just, you know,
a crime story. This is tied to something much bigger,
and it's the foster care system. And that's how I
sort of started looking really deep at it and what.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
Is specifically wrong with the foster care system. Yeah, how
do you know it was broken? And how broken is it?
Speaker 5 (06:59):
Would you say?
Speaker 2 (07:00):
So? Mari Anne's lawyers, her defense team was attempting to
say that their argument was that the foster care system
bore some blame for mary Anne's crime, that what had
happened to her in the system had shaped her behavior.
That argument, obviously was not terror was not really successful
(07:23):
with the judge who sentenced her to nineteen years. And
you know, she had been a teenager when she committed
this crime, so she got a hefty sentence. It was murder,
of course, so understandable. But the argument of the system
is causing this, you know, the government foster care system
(07:46):
is sort of pushing kids toward these this kind of
behavior or this kind of condition that would enable this behavior.
That was really intriguing to me. So the first thing
I wanted to do was figure out is mary Anne unusual?
It was her path through foster care strange in some way?
It was not at all. It was totally typical. It
(08:08):
was completely typical. Obviously, not every kid in foster care
is gonna do what she did and shoot someone in
the head, but many, many kids in foster care run
from their placements as mary Anne had done. She was
on the run from her quote unquote on the run.
They're not really running, but they're not where they're supposed
to be when she committed this crime. Also, her path
(08:32):
up to that point was really typical. She had been
in about five foster homes. She had been adopted from
foster care, and then returned to foster care by her
adoptive family. This is surprisingly common. Marianne herself had no
idea was possible to be unadopted. I didn't even know
when I started all this, but it is possible. It
(08:54):
happens a lot, and it happens a lot with kids
adopted from the foster care system because they're adopted. Families
are not prepared for the kind of needs that they
have and the kind of intense behaviors that they often
bring because they are not accustomed to growing up in
a sort of traditional family. For Marianne, it was really
(09:16):
really awkward. Sitting at family dinners was felt very strange
to her. She wasn't used to sort of that kind
of traditional family setup. Her path was really typical, about
five foster homes, adoption back to foster care, running from
foster care, all this stuff really standard. And then I
(09:37):
just really wanted to understand, you know, to try to
get in her head, and Marianne said, fine, great do
my story. She wanted to be understood, she wanted to
be known, but I needed help in sort of interpreting
her life, and the book went from there. It was
(09:58):
an effort to understand her led me to all the
other stuff in the book.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
And would you say some of her life was like it.
She's been five foster homes, she ran away. She's also
been assaulted, which seems to happen foster homes. Sexual abuse,
physical abuse, bullying and everything like that were some of
the things that Marianne had went through.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Yeah, none of those things. Actually, she was not abused
in foster care. And the book is not saying that
kids are abused in foster care. That is not what
I'm saying. I'm saying that the system itself, the act
of moving a kid from home to home to home
and undercutting any chance that they have to bond with
(10:37):
anyone in any kind of ongoing stable manner. This is
the damage of the foster care system. It has really
serious effects on kid's brain development, on neurology, on brain chemistry.
That's what I'm saying. Marianne in fact, loved the last
foster mom that she was living with. This was her
(10:59):
favorite foster and she was yet chronically on the run,
even though that was the place she liked the best,
because by that point her her behavior, like that of
many many kids in foster care, is kind of a
fight or flight, very sort of reflex kind of behavior.
So that's what I am not saying that foster care
(11:22):
is rife with abusers.
Speaker 3 (11:24):
Okay, it is, right, Yeah, we're double checking app because
there have been some cases of foster kids getting abused, bullying,
everything like that, So I just wanted to double check.
And then this fight for flight thing that they seem
to associate, do you think that could be ruined their system?
Like it could be a possible abandonment, something could happen
to them or I'm just thinking about this, what's like
(11:45):
the exact root cause for fight for flight?
Speaker 5 (11:47):
You know, going from Fossholme to foster home like these kids,
you know, it's like am I gonna run stay or
anything like that.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
I think often when kids run from a placement, really
what they're doing often is trying to find It's not
like as much running from something, but trying to find something,
and they often are trying to find their biological parent.
Got it, Okay, they're trying to find their parent, or
(12:15):
they're trying to find like other kids who understand them.
So often it's other kids on the street, other kids
in foster care who have also run. They're looking for
some kind of in fact connection. Okay, at the system
itself is constantly undercutting connection.
Speaker 5 (12:34):
Right, Yeah, And of course what can we do to
improve the foster system.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
We could. We could realign it to encourage connection, which
would mean not moving kids around so much. It would
mean allowing or even encouraging foster parents to bond with
the foster kid. A lot of foster parents don't because
they know the child. If they're not going to adopt,
(13:00):
they know that kid is likely going to be moving on,
so they'll sort of shield off their hearts to a degree. Yes,
they're providing food and shelter for the child, but like
mary Anne's foster mom at the end had told all
the kids that lived in her home, do not call
(13:20):
me mom, call me Auntie, she could no longer deal
with the sort of bonding and then ripping of the
bond and feeling attached to a kid and the kid leaves.
So foster care could improve things, I think by encouraging bonds.
So like there's kinship care where where the state will
(13:43):
give the child to a relative if their biological parent
can can't handle them, can't parent them, the state will
sometimes more and more give the child to a relative
or a close family friend. These things used to be
really discouraged, like if you're from a problematic home, that
should be like obliterated from your life. So no relatives,
(14:07):
no family friends. We're going to give you like a
new life. And that is totally unrealistic. That's not how
kids work. That's why kids are constantly on the run
trying to find their parent, even if it's a parent
who hurt them. Bonds are just they're there. You know,
they're imprinted. They don't necessarily just go away if you
remove the kid from that environment. So or all, that's
(14:33):
what I would think if the system were aligned to
encourage or to acknowledge the importance of attachment and bonding
for brain development, not because it's nice, but because it
actually has chemical effects in all humans' brains, yours and mine.
And if it doesn't happen right, you see that in
(14:54):
really problematic behavior.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
And also that there's ways of fixing it. But to
be involved in terms of fixing the system, everybody.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
I mean anybody. I don't mean that to sound flippant.
I mean, you know, federal and state officials can do
things such as approving government support for kin for relatives
who take in children through foster care. So it used
to be as very common like grandma might take you know,
(15:25):
her grandchildren in if their parent, grandma's daughters say, can't
parent the children, so grandma takes the grandchildren. That's really typical, right,
But normally, you know, she's not getting any money for that.
She's draining her retirement savings two parent children at age
seventy five that she never intended to be you know,
(15:46):
dealing with when she's a senior citizen. Now in some
state and increasingly state government is allowing foster care licensing
for just that kid and just that relative, So you
could get some government support to care for the child
so that you're not draining your retirement funds if you're
(16:07):
there relative. So that's one way that a state government
and federal as well could help. I think I think
more generally, some of this stuff that that is brain
development and brain science shows up in school, like with
really poor attention or go really poor, it affects sleep patterns, right,
(16:32):
So if.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
You're too much I've seen read about that, you know,
you know development like that, if you're like going from
home to home abuse, or you never know where your
next meal is going to come from, next bed, that
can also affect it disrupt parents are crazy exactly.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
So I guess I would say that when when all
of us see kids who seem kind of difficult or impossible,
they're not paying attention, they're not going to sleep when
they're supposed to do, they're not waking up when they're
supposed to, they're not managing their emotions emotions as we
would like. I just think it sort of behooves all
of us to step back and try, and I'm not
(17:08):
saying it's easy, but to try and look a little closer,
try to understand what is really going on with a
kid because they are not because you feel sorry for them,
but because you want to understand. And if you can
understand what is driving behavior, sometimes your response to it
might be different, and.
Speaker 5 (17:26):
Certainly is as well too.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
And we'll talk about Mara, Marianne and plus one of
our six children in the book Words of State, The
Long Shadow of American Foster Care or Claudia Row. But
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Owners Show dot Com. You're here then, amazing multi talent author.
We used to live in New York City now in
seatle for New York Times, Mother Jones and Moore, Claudia
row here on The Mike Wedner's Show with words of
the State, The Long Shallow American Foster Care before you
get back to that you want you on taking in
some recognition, nominated for Pulitzer Prize on coverage of the
(19:58):
Tino Game as well. And the racely skewed school discipline
which led to change in education laws in Washington.
Speaker 5 (20:06):
Two of the big moments that you can share with us.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
You want me to talk about those stories?
Speaker 5 (20:13):
Sure? Those?
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Okay? At the time that I was looking at it,
which was in sort of the around twenty fifteen with
I was looking at school discipline, and it was really
clear that, you know, in areas that are subjective, like defiance, right,
different teachers might define defiance in different ways. So that's
(20:39):
what we were looking at, sort of, you know, some
things are really clear cut, and but what we were
looking at is in areas where a teacher can make
a subjective judgment, it seemed like children of color, particularly
black kids, were getting expelled and or suspended long term,
(21:00):
suspended from school at rates far higher than white kids
for the same problem, right, so called defiance. So we
were able to do some really good data analysis we
showed this, and then Washington State changed laws really for
the very youngest children, not high school students, but they
(21:21):
were saying that you can't suspend like a second grader,
but teachers were and they still even even younger. And
this happens everywhere. It wasn't just a Seattle or a
Washington State thing. It happens everywhere, and it is really
surprising that children, you know, five, six, seven, could be
(21:43):
suspended from school for you know, many days, and that
of course affects learning and if you're if you miss school,
you're going to be behind and your behavior is probably
going to be worse when you come back. So we
laid all this out, we did the data analysis, and
the state lifelegislature made some adjustments to laws. I don't
know if it's actually really helping, but yes, they did
(22:06):
do that.
Speaker 5 (22:07):
I did talk to some people about that. It's been
the same pattern.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
It's like the more you suspend a kid, the further
behind they get, and the more intense the anger at
guests or they get more frightened and everything. And that
seemed to be having a very very adverse effect on
it as well too. And your wright's getting me more
of a yeah, really problem mag though.
Speaker 5 (22:26):
I'll tell you sure.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
The other story I think you asked about was Latino
Youth Gangs. Yeah, what can I tell you about that?
At the time, which was around two thousand and six
or so, six seven eight in there, maybe two thousand
and eight or nine. Yeah, that series ran in two
(22:50):
thousand and eight, and Seattle was having a pretty significant
gang problem at that point. It's very cyclical and had
sort of happened before and it was happening again. It's
multi generational, so at that point in two thousand and
eight was just sort of the latest generation, but a
lot of teenagers, a lot of kids were getting killed.
It's definitely happening again. And at the time I was
(23:14):
looking really closely at it. Again, similar to foster Care,
I really wanted to understand with foster care, what does
it feel like to be a kid on the street.
And with the gangs, I really wanted to understand, you're
fourteen years old, You're in a gang. What exactly does
that mean?
Speaker 3 (23:30):
Like?
Speaker 2 (23:30):
What do you do? What are their dues? Are their jobs?
Like what really does it mean? So that was what
prompted that series. I really wanted to understand what is
that life?
Speaker 5 (23:41):
Right?
Speaker 3 (23:41):
And also too in your latest book as well too,
it paints a picture of you know, Mary Anne, who
had been arrested for murder.
Speaker 5 (23:48):
We did talk about that in and out.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
Foster adoptive homes at ten ran away and also trafficked
as well too and assaulted, and that's going to be
like a really problematic thing too, you know, foster children,
traffic and everything else, human trafficking, that's gonna be pretty huge, right.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
So one of the things about the book early on
was I knew some data, and you know, the data
is the numbers are pretty shocking. There's a really reputable
study out of the Midwest that found fifty nine percent
of kids in foster care when they age out of
the system at eighteen, fifty nine percent will have been
(24:27):
locked up by the age of twenty six. That could
have been during foster care, like in juvie. Like if
you run away, this is what you're talking about, Like
if you run away from a placement. Kids run, they
get hungry, right, they get hungry. They have no money,
so they shoplift, and sometimes they are trafficked, or they
trade sex for money or shelter whatever, that's trafficking. So
(24:52):
if you run from a placement, the cops are going
to pick you up eventually for shoplifting or for you know,
any number of things. You're going to juvenile detention. There
you go, You just got locked up, right, So that
one reason is that that number fifty nine percent is
so high, and that is so high. Meanwhile, you know,
(25:13):
fewer than five percent of kids who ate out of
foster care ever earn for your college degree. So fifty
nine percent lock up fewer than five percent college degree.
So that those numbers sort of blew my mind. And
what was so incredible about it is. It wasn't like
a recent spike or you know, a newer trend or something.
(25:35):
This has been the case forever. So I wanted to
find out what are the things that lead to those numbers?
What Why so much lock up? Why so much incarceration?
So running away is one reason. Also failed adoptions or
broke in adoptions. This is what happened with Marianne. When
(25:57):
kids are adopted out of foster care and then there's
a problem with that placement or with that adoptive family,
and the family sends them back. That rejection even if
the kid didn't like that adoption, didn't like that home,
the rejection is profound and it has a real effect
on behavior. So that's another one really common to kids
(26:18):
who end up either homeless or locked up after foster care.
The third one was group homes. If you are not
adopted by the time you're like twelve or thirteen, you're
very likely to end up in a group home. And
again it's a lot of fighting in group homes. Kids
fight one another, they assault staff, the police come. You
just got locked up again. That's another way toward lock up.
(26:41):
And the fourth thing is aging out at eighteen, usually
without support. So, like fifty percent of kids in foster
care never get a high school diploma. They drop out
of high school. So you're eighteen years old, at best
you have a high school diploma, but a very spotty
education because you've moved around so much, different schools, different districts. Right,
(27:05):
and you're eighteen, you might not even have a high
school diploma. You have no family that can support you,
you have no job skills, like you know, like, how
are you going to support yourself? Right? And the state goes,
thanks very much, goodbye. It's when you look at that,
it's not so surprising that the numbers of kids leaving
(27:25):
foster care to live on the street, homeless or in lockup,
like because they commit a crime. It's not that surprising
when you look at how common these these experiences are
for foster kids. And meanwhile, the US is spending thirty
billion dollars every year for those outcomes, thirty billion dollars
(27:49):
a year for fifty nine percent of kids getting locked up,
in fewer than five percent getting a college degree, and
for that we spend thirty billion a year. So that
just seemed crazy to me. And I found all that data,
and I did all that research. Then I needed to
show it through the stories of young people, and it
showed me how this happens.
Speaker 5 (28:11):
We already know about mary Anne and what she went through.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
You've also mentioned about six other children as well too,
and maybe you can talk about you know, a couple
as well too. Similar Marianne's a little bit different, different outcomes,
and everything's not mary Anne.
Speaker 5 (28:25):
It's just some of the other six children. Book. Sure.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
So when I was trying to understand, I told you,
I was trying to understand is she typical or is
she some kind of aberration? And I was talking with
somebody who had been incarcerated, just you know, a guy
who had been incarcerated. I was explaining, you know, this
project to him and he said, oh, you got to
talk to my friend Art Longworth. And Art Longworth also
(28:51):
was in foster care, and very shortly after he was
ejected from the system decades ago. This is in the
nineteen eighties, he committed a murder. He got a life sentence,
and in prison, as a middle aged man, he was
sort of realizing the same thing I was on the outside.
(29:12):
He was like, Wow, everyone around me is a guy
I knew growing up in foster Care in the group homes. Wow,
it's either them or now it's their kids. So he,
in you know, a maximum security prison with a life sentence,
was seeing all these other guys also from foster care,
and Art goes, wait a minute, this, we need to
(29:36):
quantify this, we need to show this, we need to
do something. So Art convened a group of inmates to
talk about this exact thing, this foster care prison overlap.
So that's when I reached out to him. I heard
from this guy, Oh, you got to talk to Art Longworth.
So I emailed him in prison initially to sort of understand,
(30:00):
to hear what he was seeing in prison, and for him,
I thought maybe he could help me understand Marianne because
he also had been a kid on the street and
he also had committed murder, and I wanted to understand this.
Art eventually becomes a character in the story because one
thing about Art is a really good writer. Art became
a writer while locked up, and he was a really
(30:22):
good writer, and he was able to write about his
experience of being a teenager in a way that I
had not seen articulated before. So I needed Art to
explain this experience. So he became another character in the book.
I could go on there are a million of them.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
Oh, absolutely, yeah. I like to hear about maybe a
couple more as well too.
Speaker 5 (30:48):
This is rather interesting.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
Okay, well, I want to say that not every person
in this book is locked up or is even in
tru There are some people who have been incredibly successful
despite a very rough start in foster care. There are
some folks in this book who have become lawyers, and
(31:11):
one of them became a powerful activist. His name is
Sixto Cancel, which is a very cool and interesting name.
Sixto was in foster care in Bridgeport, Connecticut. He's much
younger than Art. He's now in his thirties. He also
had a terrible adoption experience, adopted out of foster care,
(31:34):
terrible adoption experience, begged his social worker to be removed
from the adoptive home and to go back into foster care.
So he asked to go back into foster care. But
he was miserable, was really really miserable and determined very
young as a teenager. In you know, Bridgeport is a
(31:55):
tough town. It is a tough city, and Sixto just
you know, he told me the story about being at
the bus station and crying. This is like a sixteen
year old boy, and he's a big kid, you know,
crying at a bus station, praying to God that all
this pain would someday mean something. And that is what
(32:18):
he did. He made himself an activist and he became
a regular at the White House and worked has worked
with three administrations.
Speaker 5 (32:28):
Nice.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
He's not even thirty five yet, really really young and
came from foster care, attempted to go to college, didn't
finish college, and instead went into this sort of world
of activism to change foster care. That's that's the activism.
So that's another one.
Speaker 5 (32:47):
And there's three ways to improve it. And what are they?
We'll find what I met with them? Claudi role of
Words of the State.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
He listened to the Mic Wedders Show at the Mic
Weadshow dot compowered by Star Cub Studios. Write to by
official sponsor Mike Waders Show Interash Warwrick, author Mea Mulson
sa Missing the Sweet Thomas by Serena Wagon based on
life of David King, David Psalms, three Squizz of Pangs,
Amazon dot Com, keywork Sweet Samas Serena Wagner would be
a back multitl author Claudia Row of Words of the
State after this time.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
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(33:36):
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Speaker 6 (33:45):
Hey there, Dana Laxa here, American news anchor. Hey, let
me ask you something real quick.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Why do you read a book.
Speaker 6 (33:51):
You're buying a story, a thought, a message, and a
good book entertains and inspires. And that's exactly what missing
by award winning author me on that Zia does. I
have his book right here, and it's based on real
events with relatable characters that hook you from start to finish.
I personally love this book. It's super powerful and meaningful
(34:13):
through you can actually get it on Amazon right now.
Speaker 3 (34:15):
The Mike Wagner Show is brought to you by Serena
Wagner's book, The Sweet Sawmist now availbon amsoon. This book
includes thirty exquisite pintings by well known and unknown painters
and King David Soalms. The Sweet Salmist gives us a
new perspective on his life in this book through the
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(34:36):
as well as other events. It's a story of love, betrayal, repentance,
and more. It also offers advice on approaching God and
living a life that pleases him. Check out the book
The Sweet Sawmist by Serena Wagner, now available on Amazon
keywords Sweet Saalmist Serena Wagner. Hey, Hey, this is Ray
Powers and boy, are you in luck?
Speaker 5 (34:55):
Right place, right time?
Speaker 3 (34:57):
Tuned into the Mike Wagner Show.
Speaker 4 (35:00):
You heard me.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
We're back to author Claudia Rowe of Wars of State,
The Long Shadow of American Foster Care here on the
Mike wad In your show, and we talked about some
of the stories about foster care, talk about Marianne and
a couple ers who've been through foster care system, and
there's three ways to improve foster care.
Speaker 5 (35:19):
And what are those three ways are Claudia, Well, I.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Would you know, Look, first of all, I would say
there are a lot of people who have correctly pointed
out that we for a long time have had too
many kids in foster care. The numbers are beginning to
go down, but it is still true that a lot
of kids are brought into foster care essentially for poverty.
(35:46):
I'll just tell you straight up, there's like no middle
class kids in foster care, certainly no affluent kids or just.
Speaker 5 (35:52):
No middle class period. That's the sad part. No middle class.
You look poor or wrench. There's no mile anymore.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
But I will say that you know, in affluent families
there is addiction, abuse, neglect, for sure, those kids are
taken into foster care. The kids that are brought into
foster care are always kids in low income or poor families.
And you know, you're not technically supposed to take a
kid into foster care because they have housing instability or
(36:24):
not enough food. Really, what you should be doing is
helping that family have food. You're not supposed to be
taking kids into foster care for extreme poverty. But it
happens all the time, and it used to happen a lot.
And so people who say there are too many children
in foster care, that's what they're looking at. Families that
were separated primarily because of extreme poverty, sometimes substance abuse
(36:48):
as well. But you know, there are a lot of
middle class or rich homes where there are you know,
there's all kinds of substance abuse going on, those kids
are not removed. So I'm just saying, all right, you
asked about improving foster care. First of all, yes, it
is true that there are too many kids brought into
(37:08):
foster care. It is also true that there are some
kids who cannot be safe at home, who cannot be
safe at their biological home. So number one, focus foster
care just on them. Number Two, foster care is really
more of a more of a holding system than a
(37:28):
healing system, and it really needs to be sort of
retooled to focus on healing these kids, because we now
all acknowledge there's trauma that's brought them into the system.
The system itself is traumatic just being in the system,
even if there's no abuse, just being moved around you're
(37:51):
always the new kid at school. Everyone says, you know,
where are you from? What do your parents do? I mean,
this is just a constant experience for kids in foster
care because they're always moving around. This is not good
for kids, especially when they don't really want to talk
about who their parents are, where they came from necessarily.
So I would say, first shrink the system, then make
(38:16):
it less of a holding system or a way station,
and more geared toward actually helping these kids, actually healing them.
And what heals them and helps them is bonds connection,
stable connection to a trusting, trustworthy adult. This is actually
(38:37):
rather hard to find in foster care. I mean, it
sounds so easy and obvious, but it's not so easy
and obvious.
Speaker 3 (38:43):
And I think that's a really good point as well too,
that there's also some talk that, you know, raising the
limit to eighteen staff kick them out eighteen.
Speaker 5 (38:53):
Some are talking about moving up to.
Speaker 3 (38:55):
Twenty five, you know, just gives the more time to
really really guess Davis as well.
Speaker 5 (39:00):
From eighteen to twenty five.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
Well, what there is is extended foster care, and that
can cover a kid up to twenty one. Often there
are conditions for that. You have to be in school
or employed or something, and typically foster. When foster kids
get the chance to get out of the system, they're
so tired of the government in every corner of their
(39:23):
life since they've been a child. Many of them are like, well,
I'm not down with your conditions and your requirements for
this extended foster care. I need to get out. So
a lot of kids who are eligible for extended foster
care do not opt for it. I think what you're
talking about with twenty five might be something that Marianne experienced,
(39:45):
which is called juvenile rehabilitation to twenty five, which is
an effort in Washington State and a couple of other states.
It's like less than it's like half a dozen. It's
very small. This is an effort to handle youth crime
a slightly different way. And what it is in Washington
State is a law, a law passed pretty recently about
(40:07):
seven years ago, that says, if you are charged, if
you are a minor, like Marianne was charged as an adult,
because of the seriousness of your crime, generally we will
let you stay in a youth facility, a youth prison,
I should say, it's a youth lock up until age
(40:29):
twenty five, and the thinking of so you're no longer
a minor, but we're The thinking behind that is again
brain science, and it's saying, you know, broadly and sort
of the US, we now accept that kids' brains are
still developing. You know, no one's going to say an
eighteen year old is a fully mature adult.
Speaker 3 (40:49):
Right, It's given me more common sense at this point.
Speaker 5 (40:52):
Old they'll still you don't think.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
So much, right, they do incredibly dumb things. So so
the thinking is, if you know, kids brain are still
molding and shaping into their mid twenties, and if you
put them in a hardcore prison, adult prison, they're gonna
mold in shape to that environment. And if you put
them in a youth facility with more emphasis on education
(41:14):
and counseling and training, job training, you know, a more
of a healing or therapeutic environment, the thinking is, well,
then their brains will shape and shift to that. That
will be the influence. So it's like a reasonable idea.
In practice, it's had a lot of problems. I'll be honest.
(41:34):
For Marianne, it did a lot of good things. Okay,
I think it did a lot of what it did,
I'll just say it's not that the jr. To twenty
five was so great. It's not so great. It's not
like great therapy or great education. It's not. It could be,
but it's not what But she did change in a
(41:56):
positive way, and I think what that shows really is,
in fact, for her, prison was like almost the first
real stability she had known she was going to be
fed every day, no one was going to jump her,
you know, she was not going to be on the street.
She was going to have the same adult working with her,
(42:17):
her case manager all the time. Stability. So what that
showed and she did change, and what that showed really
was more about foster care and the instability of foster
care and its effects on behavior, because as soon as
there was more stability, she really changed.
Speaker 3 (42:36):
And I think that was really important as well. I
think it hit the nail on the head. Claudia, And
where can when you find your book in the meantime,
and what's your website?
Speaker 2 (42:45):
My website is claudiaojournalist dot com. And you can find
the book on Amazon or Barnes and Noble or bookshop
dot org or your local independence store where anywhere you
buy books, all right.
Speaker 3 (43:00):
Or certainly check that out here at the multitowner Claudia
Roa of Words of the State, The Long Shadow of
American foster Care. Here the Mike Wader shows us a
few more things. What else can we expect from you
twenty twenty five and beyond?
Speaker 2 (43:11):
Oh man, I am I am thinking about some stuff,
but it's still just sort of gelling. It takes me
a while to come up with ideas. I do want
to leave your listeners with one point. So I've talked
about a lot here about the connection between foster care
and criminal and crime, right, criminal behavior. So there are victims.
(43:36):
I mean people say, oh, the foster kids are victims. Yes,
but they've victimized people, they have hurt people. Right, there
are victims here, and it's important to recognize that and
acknowledge that. And what I would say to anyone who
raises that question, because any thinking person would, is look, whatever,
(43:57):
there are some tough stories in this book, But what
ever choices these kids may made, whatever their sort of
twisted paths may have been. Every single person in this book,
including you know, people who committed murder everything, everyone talked
to me because they wanted to make foster care better
(44:18):
for the kids. Coming up behind them, and we talk
about lack of empathy, and we talk about sociopaths and irredeemable. No,
every one of these people, despite some of their questionable decisions,
wanted to make things better for the kids coming up
behind them. And I think that that is really, I
(44:39):
don't know, kind of hopeful in a way.
Speaker 3 (44:41):
Okay, we're certainly looking forward to that. And who do
you consider biggest influence in a career.
Speaker 2 (44:46):
Biggest influence in my career?
Speaker 5 (44:48):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (44:49):
Wow, there are a million writers. That is a hard one.
Biggest influence in my career. I have sort of piloted
my own ship lot. I like, there are writers that
I like, I don't know lately I'm reading, you know,
Barbara King Sliver had a fantastic book Demon Copperhead, which
(45:12):
is fiction, but it is partly about foster care and
it really charged me up. So I would say that
writers are are are what inspire me and have probably
influenced my career.
Speaker 3 (45:28):
Okay, that's really amazing as well. What's the best advice
you can give to a boy at this point?
Speaker 2 (45:33):
The best advice I can give to somebody who wants
to be a writer, or just anybody just in general. Okay,
this is my advice. Look closer. You see something that
repulses you, frightens you, repels you, makes you go h.
I would say, instead of doing that, instead of pulling away,
(45:53):
look closer, try to understand. Try to see inside that
person and understand and why they're doing what they're doing.
It will change the way you feel about yourself, about
the world, the way you understand things. Book closer, and.
Speaker 5 (46:09):
I think that's really good advice as well too from
our journalists.
Speaker 3 (46:12):
We're here at the amazing Claudia Row of Words of
the State, The Long Shadow of American Foster Care here
on the Mike Winners Show.
Speaker 5 (46:18):
Claudia, very big, thanks for timing. You've been absolute fantastic.
Speaker 3 (46:20):
Learned a lot looking for hid soon keeps up today,
keep in touch and what's your website?
Speaker 5 (46:25):
How do people contact you? Boring people purchase or check
out your book? Thank you?
Speaker 2 (46:30):
Anybody can come see me at claudiaojournalist dot com. I'm
also on Twitter or x at Row Report and they
can buy the book get Amazon or Barnes and Noble
or bookshop dot org or your local independent bookstore.
Speaker 5 (46:46):
We will certainly check that out as well. Once day
and clad very big. Thanks you time.
Speaker 3 (46:49):
You've been absolute fantastic looking forehand soon keeps up today,
keep in touch, live at you back.
Speaker 5 (46:54):
We wish I'll best in Claudia. You definitely have a
great future. Hey you, thank you.
Speaker 1 (46:58):
The Mike Wagner Show is powered by Sonicweb Studios. If
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(47:19):
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Speaker 6 (47:28):
Hey there, Dana Laxa here, American news anchor. Hey, let
me ask you something real quick.
Speaker 2 (47:33):
Why do you read a book.
Speaker 6 (47:34):
You're buying a story, a thought, a message, and a
good book entertains and inspires. And that's exactly what a
Missing By award winning author me On the Zia does.
I have his book right here, and it's based on
real events with relatable characters that hook you from start
to finish. I personally love this book. It's super powerful
(47:55):
and meaningful through You can actually get it on Amazon
right now.
Speaker 3 (47:58):
The Mike Wagner Show is held. You buy Serena Wagner's
book The Sweet Sawmist now availve on Emson. This book
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Speaker 4 (48:36):
Thanks for listening to The Mike Wagner Show powered by
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(48:59):
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