TMR 303 : Jacob Hornberger : On the JFK Autopsy Fraud

Episode Transcript
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(00:10):
Hello everybody. Julian Charles here ofthe Mind Renewed dot com, coming to
you from the depths of the Lancashirecountryside here in the UK and today on
this the sixtieth anniversary of JFK's assassination. I'm very pleased to welcome back to
the program Jacob Hornberger, who kindlyjoined us earlier this year to talk about
John F. Kennedy's war with theUS National Security State, which was a

(00:33):
conversation about some of the historical andpolitical circumstances in the US and beyond leading
up to that tragic day of thetwenty second and November nineteen sixty three.
And for those of you who didn'tlisten to that conversation, highly recommend that
that was TMR number two hundred andninety eight with Jacob Hornberger. Jacob Hornberger
is founder and president of the Futureof Freedom Foundation in the US. He

(00:55):
has degrees in economics and law andhad a career as a trial attorney for
many years before going full time intothe educational foundation world. He has written
and spoken extensively on the JFK assassination, authoring books such as An Encounter with
Evil, The Abraham Subruda story,the Kennedy autopsy, the Kennedy autopsy to
and regime change, the jffare assassination. His foundation also publishes books by other

(01:19):
researchers and has held JFK conferences withhigh profile speakers such as Oliver Stone,
Ron Paul, Jeffrey Sachs, DouglasHorn, Michael J. Glenn, and
Jefferson Morley and others. Indeed,Jacob, thanks very much for coming back
on the program. It's my pleasure, Julian, thank you for having me
again. It's great to be speakingwith you, and joyed it enormously last

(01:40):
time, and I'm anticipating another wonderfulconversation today. Now. Last time,
as I said, we were discussingsome of that background to JFK's assassination.
But today we're going to be chattingabout JFK's quote unquote autopsy, which of
course is the subject of a coupleof your books. And I'm putting that
word in inverted commas as we saythis side of the pond, because there

(02:00):
continues to be considerable shall I say, controversy to say the least, swirling
around that examination or whatever it was, or was it even one event These
are questions straight away, what isthat going to be talking about here?
What did go on with JFK's bodyafter the assassination? And why isn't this
just a straightforward question here? Imean, surely it should be. If

(02:22):
everything we've been told over the yearsis correct, you know, a loaned
up with a rifle, a commissiongetting to the heart of the crime,
then surely anomalies should be easily answered. But not so, and you make
that clear in your book, TheKennedy Autopsy, which I have to say,
and you haven't asked me to saythis, I'm saying this off my
own bat here. I have tosay. It's a very helpful book and
an essential companion to Douglas Horn's magnumOpus that we talked about last time inside

(02:46):
the Assassination Records Review Board. Soit helped me and will help any reader
to navigate that amazing set of documents. So I highly recommend people to get
a copy of that book. So, in considering this autopsy narrative, let's
begin with what happened to JFK immediatelyafter the shooting, which takes us straight
to Elm Street and that quick driveto Parkland Hospital to try to save the

(03:09):
president's life. And straight away we'vegot some strange events going on. So
where should we start. Do youwant to start with doctor L. Rose?
Do you want to start before thatwith Roy Kellerman and the limousine.
Where would you like to start,Jacob, Well, let's start with what
happened at the hospital and then wecan incorporate Roy Kellerman in that story.

(03:30):
Immediately after the shooting, the limousinedriver greer secret service guy, he starts
driving to Parkland Hospital and they're therewith just a few minutes, and they
take President Kennedy's They take him intothe hospital, try to save his life.
It's a feudal effort, and heexpires about twenty five minutes later,

(03:53):
at about one pm Central time.With that moment, a team of secret
service a GENS immediately goes into action, and it's headed by this man named
Roy Kellerman. And Kellerman announces thathe is operating under orders his team,
he's got a Thompson submachine gun,and that they're going to take President Kennedy's

(04:15):
body back to Washington. Doctor EarlRose is the Dallas County Medical Examiner,
and he places himself in front ofthis huge ornate casket that has been purchased
from a Dallas funeral home and broughtover, and he announces that he's not
going to permit this because he hasto do an autopsy. And the reason

(04:38):
he has to do an autopsy isthat Texas state law requires this. This
was a murder case under Texas lawat that time. It was not a
federal offense to assassinate a president,so the federal government Secret Service did not
have jurisdiction, any jurisdiction at allover this crime. This was just a
straight murder case under Texas state law, which requires an autopsy. Well,

(05:01):
at this point, Kellerman starts screamingand yelling, issuing profanities, ordering Rose
to get out of the way.He says, this is the president of
the United States, and we're takingthis body back to Washington. And Rose
stood his ground, and at thatpoint the other Secret Service agents that were
there pulled their coats back to brandishtheir guns, and one of the obviously

(05:23):
larger ones in this Secret Service teampicks up Rose physically and carts him over
to a wall and wags his fingerin his face as if saying no,
no, no. So they forcedtheir way out of Parkland Hospital. Now
I should mention that Kellerman was inthe limousine in which President Kennedy was writing.

(05:44):
He was in the passenger seat nextto Greer. And so they take
the body in the big, hugeDallas ornate casket they put in the back
of a vehicle there from the funeralhome, and they take it over to
Dallas love Field where the Vice Presidentwho is now the President, Lennon Johnson,
is waiting for it. He hasalready had seats removed from the back

(06:06):
of Air Force one, which hehad now taken over. The Air Force
two was his plan, and itwas still there. So it's clear,
as I argue in my books,that it had to be Johnson that issued
that order to get that body outof there, because he's the guy that
was having the seats removed and waitingfor this casket. Yeah, could we?

(06:26):
So that's yeah, part one ofwhat happened here. Yeah. Yeah,
I'd like to come back to LBJin just a minute. Can I
just ask you something a little bitmore about the secret serviceman Kelluman. So
you say he was in the limousine, so his job was to protect the
president in the case of shooting likethis. But am I right that there
is a shot initially, and thenKellerman just doesn't do anything. Then there

(06:47):
is the fatal shot. So thisis suspicious to start with, isn't it.
It's extremely suspicious, and it bringsup other things. You see,
the job of a Secret Service agentis to save the life of president,
to prevent an assassination. That's theirprimary duty. And every one of them
knows that they are risking their liveshere. If they can't take that chance,

(07:09):
then they shouldn't take the job.So it's the job of a Secret
Service agent if a shot rings outto immediately cover the body of the president
with his body. His job isto take any shots that are intended for
the president. And in fact,that's what one of the Secret Service agents
that came up from behind that wascrawling on the back of the car he
was trying to do. He wastrying to cover the president with his body,

(07:31):
but he was too late. Thatwas Clinton Hill, Was that Clinton
Hill? Clint? That was ClintHill. Yeah, And so you've got
Kellerman sitting there when the first shotrings out that apparently, by all accounts,
is a shot that hits Kennedy inthe neck and it was not necessarily
a fatal wound, and so Kellerman'sjob at that point was to immediately jump

(07:53):
over the seat and cover the President'sbody, and instead he just sits there
like a bumping log, does nothing, just looking at the president. Now,
in my most recent book, andEncounter with Evil, the Abraham's a
Bruder Story, I know this isn'tthe theme of this particular show, but
I think it's important to bring outthat the theme of that book is that

(08:15):
the CIA, on the very weekendof the assassination, produced an altered,
fraudulent copy of the Zubruder film.They commandeered secretly the original film, and
as I detail in that book,they shipped it over to Rochester, New
York, to a top secret filmfacility that was the equivalent of Hollywood.
And the reason they did that isbecause there were like fifty nine witnesses that

(08:39):
said that the car made a completestop or a near stop, which then
enabled the shooters to hit Kennedy inthe head, the fatal headshot that's no
longer in the extent Zubruder film.So you've got Greer over here stopping the
car, You've got Kellerman over therejust staring at the president the fatal shot

(09:00):
hits him in the head. Yeah, this up. And it's pretty clear,
especially once we get to Betheza NationalMedical Center where the military conducted the
autopsy, that Kelderman was part ofwhat was going on here, and so
was Greer. So Kellerman he wasthe guy who was saying, look,
we're taking this body. You arenot doing the normal procedure here. We're
taking this It's a military matter basically, and it's under our control. Yeah.

(09:24):
I mean some people might think,well, this is a bit fanciful
talking about the Zabrudah film, AndI'd love to have a chat with you
about that sometime. And indeed,I saw an interview with I think it
was Doug Horn was speaking to aguy called Dino Bruleioni, who was in
charge of developing the Zubruda film,and it seems that there was another set
of another crew developing the film thatwas unknown to him. And I have

(09:46):
to say that that's all extremely suspicious, and I'd love to talk about that.
And and Dina Brillioni seemed to meto be an incredibly credible individual in
that conversation. Can I just goback to William Greer. So this is
the other chap who was in thelimousine. Is he the same chap who
earlier in this motorcade. There's videoof him throwing his hands up in the

(10:09):
air as if he's trying to dohis job and he's being told something like
no, no, no, thingsare not as usual. He just throws
his hands up in the air andhe doesn't know what's going on. And
I understand that there was to belackser security than usual. The story goes
that Kennedy supposedly said he didn't wantthe normal security. You know, whether
Kennedy said that, I don't know, but this is what I've heard.

(10:30):
But there certainly is that video ofsome security person throwing the hands up in
the air. They don't know what'sgoing on. Have you come across any
of that. Yeah, there's avideo online of that. And that actually
took place at Dallas love Field whenKennedy and Missus Kennedy land there from Fort
Worth. They had spent the nightin Fort Worthy, they'd given a breakfast
talk there and then they flew overto Dallas love Field, which was,

(10:52):
like, I don't know, atwenty minute flight that wasn't Greer, though,
because the standard policy was to havethese Secret Service agents standing on the
footboard of the limousine kind of serveas a guard against somebody trying to assassinate.
The allegation is that this is whatthe Secret Service said, is that
Kennedy said, I don't need those. And it's virtually impossible that Kennedy would

(11:16):
have said that because the standard procedure. Kennedy's mindset was always to defer to
the Secret Service. Whatever they said, that was fine with him. They
were in charge. So you've gotthis film where this guy is going over
there to apparently get onto the limousine, which was standard procedure, and he's
being waved off. He's being tolddon't do that, and that's why he

(11:39):
throws up his hands, like,what the heck is going on? I'm
supposed to be doing this, ButGreer is driving the limousine. So it
couldn't have been Greer. It wasjust some guy that's not part of what's
going on here, raising his handsand saying, Hey, I don't understand
why are we getting called off here? And you're right about the lack of
security. What they should have donewas going to all these buildings and close

(12:01):
the windows in these skyscrapers there andseal the windows and then keep eyes out
on the windows so that if somebodyopens the window, you could immediately radio
to stop the motorcade and get upthere and investigate why somebody's opening the window.
But they didn't do any of that. Dealey Plaza was actually the perfect
place for an ambush. It wasat the end of the parade route.

(12:24):
Relatively few people were there compared tothe downtown street, so that ensured that
there weren't going to be a lotof photographs and movie video being taken film
of the assassination. They moved thepress car way back in the motorcade when
ordinarily it would be in front ofthe presidential vehicle, so that they could
be filming the president he's greeting thecrowds and waving at the crowds. This

(12:48):
time, interestingly enough, they putthe press car several cars back, so
that that ensured that you didn't haveany professional photographs or professional film being taken
of the assassination. So when youadd all this up, there's a lot
of nefarious aspects to what was goingon there in dally Pleasant. Yes,
indeed, I like that. Whenyou add all this up, the sort
of cumulative suspicions are very powerful.Indeed, come, let's go back to

(13:13):
Lyndon B. Johnson. So yousay that it looks in your view and
it looks as if he was givingorders to Kellermann with regard to getting hold
of the body, making sure thatthe local coroner didn't deal with the autopsy.
Give us more about why you thinkJohnson at least knew what was going
on with this. Well, Johnson'srole in this is very revealing, because,

(13:37):
for one, it's clear when kellermansays, I'm operating under orders,
I mean, this is an extraordinarything. You would expect the Secret Service
to cooperate with local law enforcement,local officials because there's going to be a
criminal prosecution, presumably, and ordinarilyyou would expect law enforcement personnel federal and
state to work together to make surethat they get the malif factor the assassin

(14:01):
convicted. And so for a federalofficial to say you're not going to do
your job, now, keep inmind that an autopsy is critically important evidence
in most murder cases. You're goingto call the pathologists to the stand.
The prosecutor is he's going to askhim, did you determine the cause of
death. You have to keep recordsof everything you did. You have to

(14:22):
keep the chain of custody of everything. You have to do everything meticulous because
you're going to have a team ofhigh powered criminal defense lawyers challenging you every
step of the way. So thisis an extraordinary thing. When Kelderman says,
we're not going to let you doyour job. We're taking this body,
and Grows says you can't lose thechain of custody on the body.
You have to do this thing here, and that term chain of custody is

(14:46):
a legal term. And Kelderman says, I'm taking this body away. Well,
Johnson, After the president has hitin deely plasm, Johnson goes to
the hospital. He's in a separatecar, but he goes to the hospital
and waits there for about twenty fivethirty minutes until President Kennedy is declared dead.
And while he's there, he makesa very interesting and very revealing declaration.

(15:11):
He says, to somebody, youknow, this could be the first
stage in a nuclear attack on theUnited States by the Soviet Union. Now
keep in mind that this is aboutone year after the Cuban missile crisis,
when the world came to the veryprecipice of all out nuclear war. So
he's conjuring this up. And it'snot a totally out of space thing.

(15:35):
I mean, it's a reasonable declarationfor him to make. This could be
the first stage. Yeah. Yeah, So you say he's conjuring this up.
But how do we know he's doingthat. Could it not be that
he received, let's say, acommunication from military intelligence to say, look,
we think maybe the Soviets are responsiblefor this. This is a possibility.
The whole thing now needs to becomea military matter. Let's take custody
of the Body for National Security.It would have been too quick for that

(15:58):
to happen. I mean, we'retalking about just twenty twenty five minutes.
They're sitting at Parkland waiting for thepresident to die. But let's defer to
Johnson and assume that he's making thisdeclaration in good faith, because it is
a reasonable thing to assume that,hey, this could be the Soviets attacking
us. So he gets in thecar. As soon as Kennedy's declared dead,

(16:19):
he gets in a car to takehim to Dallas love Field. On
the way he repeats this concern,and he scrunches down in the seat and
he says, we could be comingunder an ambush here. This could be
the Soviets that are going to attackthe United States. And so the idea,
of course, is that you knockout the president, you knock out

(16:41):
the vice president, and then who'sgoing to be having the black bag to
respond with nuclear weapons. So he'sagain expressing this concern Julian on the way
to Dallas love Field. However,when he gets to Dallas love Field,
everything changes, and this is whyit's so revealing his criminal participation in what

(17:03):
was going on here. He getsthe Dallas love Field and all of a
sudden, there's no more concern.He's waiting for the body to come.
He's having seats removed. He decidesthat he needs to be sworn in,
which is buying him more time.He calls the Attorney General, Bobby Kennedy,
the deceased President's brother, and says, do I need to be sworn

(17:25):
in? And Bobby says no,you're automatically the president. But he says,
well, no, I'm going todo this, and he later denies
that Kennedy told him that, buthe's over there lawlagagging for I don't know,
an hour and forty five minutes orso, and then he takes off.
Now, I ask you, ifa man even has a one percent

(17:47):
mentality that there's a chance of anuclear attack here, he is going to
get up in the air immediately.He's not going to lawa gag. He's
not going to wait for the body. He's not going to get sworn in.
His job is to America. Andif there's nuclear bombs coming in,
they're coming in on Dallas, becauseclearly the Soviets would know that both the
President and the Vice President were inDallas. Instead, he just takes his

(18:11):
sweet time there. Now, whyis that so important? Well, it
shows that his expressions of concerns werefalse when he said this could be the
first stage of a nuclear attack,because if he really believed that, he
would have gotten up in the earimmediately. What he's doing is he's conjuring
up and this was one of hisroles. He was conjuring up the prospect

(18:33):
of a nuclear attack on the UnitedStates. And as we go further and
we see what was going on atBethesda and in the aftermath of Bethesda,
where the autopsy was taking place.We see that this was a critically important
thing in the cover up of theassassination, conjuring up what every American feared
the most, and that was thepossibility of nuclear war. It is very

(18:55):
strange, suspicious behavior, and otherthings are strange about this as well.
So do we have any explanation asto why he wanted the luggage removed from
his normal plane, so air Forcetwo onto air Force one. Do we
have any explanation as to why whyis he behaving in this way? Well,
his job, clearly in this thingwas to get the body out of
Dallas and put it in the handsof the military. And your point about

(19:18):
the luggage is very interesting. Yousee, because his plane was air Force
two as the vice president, andair Force two was a duplicate of air
Force one, had all the sameequipment air Force one. That was Missus
Kennedy's plane along with the president.Of course, he should have just gotten
into air Force two and taken off. That to me would have been the
prudent thing. If everything was normal. Let's get up in the air let's

(19:41):
head on back to Washington or there'ssome secret location, and then leave air
Force one. There for miss Kennedyto return to Washington with Secret Service agents
and so forth. Instead, hetakes over, He commandeers air Force one,
and he's actually lying in the bedroomwhen Missus Kennedy, who's got her

(20:02):
blood soaked suit on, walks inand there's this guy, you know,
just lying on her bed. Andit was a kind of an uncomfortable deal,
isn't And he excuses himself and letsher have her room, But then
he says, I'm going to havethe luggage. He orders the luggage to
be moved from air Force two toair Force one, which was ridiculous because

(20:22):
both planes were returning to the sameplace. So what I contend he was
doing, he was just buying timeuntil that body arrived. And it's clear
he's waiting for the body because he'sordered seats to be removed from the back
of Air Force one to make roomfor the casket. Okay, and we
have the strange story that will buildup by what we will say in a

(20:45):
few minutes from now that very possiblyKennedy's body was removed from the ornate casket
that arrived on Air Force one andtransferred to somewhere else. I don't know
whether you think it could have beenAir Force two or a helicopter or something.
So you'll tell me that in aminute. But suspicions arise about this
because of seemingly multiple times the bodyarriving at Bethesda. You'd expect it to

(21:10):
arrive once, which obviously it did, but it looks as if we have
different arrivals, which is very,very strange. Could you tell us about
why there is the suspicion that there'smore than one arrival of a casket at
Bethesda. Yeah. Keep in mindfirst though, that when when the when
the plane, when Air Force onelands at Andrews Air Force Base, Johnson's

(21:33):
plane air Force one with the bigheavy funeral like Dallas casket, Johnson delivers
this casket or the casket is takenoff the plane and put into a Navy
gray ambulance with the purpose of takingthe body to Bethesda National Naval Medical Center,

(21:53):
which is a military facility. Nowwhat's fascinating to me about this is
that all of this is considered normal. I mean, if you look at
the mainstream press back then and eventoday, everybody just considers this to be
a normal thing. Well, it'snot a normal thing. The federal government
had no jurisdiction over this crime whatsoever, much less the military. But by

(22:18):
this time in America, the militaryhad a sank or sank role in American
life. This was the height ofthe Cold War. So the national security
establishment, which includes the CIA andthe Pentagon, the vast military establishment,
were playing center roles in American life. So nobody questions this, I mean,
really is extraordinary. What businesses doesthe military have conducting an autopsy on

(22:44):
a crime that's committed in Texas.There was pathologists there in Maryland, in
Washington, d C. In Virginia. In fact, probably they have the
best pathologists in the country per population. But Johnson doesn't call one of these
pathologists, says I've got the president'sbody. No, he delivers it into
the hands of the military. Sothe Dallas casket is then placed in the

(23:07):
back of this limousine and it startsproceeding with Missus Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy and
Roy Kellermann, who we've already beendiscussing. It starts proceeding slowly over to
the front of the Bethesda facility,which is about, oh, i'd say
about a twenty five minute ride,thirty minute ride but in the nineteen nineties

(23:30):
you had an agency, an independentagency that operated under the President be informed
by Congress, called the Assassination RecordsReview Board, and it came into existence
to enforce what was called a JFKRecords Act. What happened was that Oliver
Stone had come out with his movieJFK, which posited that the assassination was

(23:51):
actually the result of a regime changeoperation on the part of the National security
establishment and rejected the official, lownut theory of the assassination. And at
the end of that movie, Stonehad include a blurb that they were still
keeping many of their assassination related recordsecret, the Pentagon, the CIA,
the Secret Service, the FBI,And there was such an outcry over this
that public opinion pressured Congress into enactingthe JFK Records Act, which mandated that

(24:18):
these federal agencies had to release theirrecords relating to the assassination. So the
Assassination Records Review Board is brought intoexistence to enforce this. Well, the
AARRB discovered the existence of a guynamed Roger Boygen, and Eugen had been
a Marine sergeant on the weekend ofthe assassination. His team was to provide

(24:41):
security, make sure no unauthorized peoplecame into where the autopsy was being conducted.
And he told the ARRB that hehad saved a copy of his after
action report that he had submitted hissuperiors immediately after that weekend, and so
he sent them a copy of it. And that report said we carried the

(25:03):
president's body into the morgue at sixthirty five pm. Well, that creates
immediate problems because the official story isthat the president's body was brought into the
morgue by an honor guard consisting ofvarious members of the armed forces, headed

(25:25):
by an Army lieutenant named Sam Bird, was brought in at eight pm.
Now you have Bird saying APM,which is the honor guard, and you've
got Boygen saying we brought the bodyin at six thirty five pm, although
Boigen doesn't actually say it was thebody. Does He said that they bring
in a casket, they bring inthe cast at six thirty five, But

(25:45):
he doesn't actually six thirty five pm. Yes, at six thirty five pm,
But I believe from his after actionreport he doesn't actually say that he
saw the president's body inside that particularcasket. Is that right? That's correct,
that's correct. You're absolutely right.But there were other enlisted men that
had come forward even prior to this, and they came forward before the a

(26:07):
RB that corroborated the fact that thepresident's body was in this casket, and
they said that what they did wasthey met a black horse outside the morgue
that had a shipping casket. Notthe big Dallas ornate heavy casket, but
just like a regular shipping casket thatone uses to transport bodies across the country.

(26:30):
It was a common thing in theVietnam War, which of course was
going on at this time. Absolutelyis a guy called Dennis David. They
said that exactly what you've just said. They this is his quote. A
simple gray shipping casket such as hefrequently saw. This is Horne actually reporting
on what David said, such ashe frequently saw used later during the Vietnam
War. So an aluminium sort ofcheap thing. Yeah, it's just a

(26:53):
lightweight shipping casket. And so hereyou have Dennis David the same brought in
the shipping casket. You have RogerBoygen saying the casket was brought in at
six thirty five PM. So they'recorroborating each other, and then there were
other enlisted men that were corroborating withDennis. David said, and then they

(27:14):
were saying also that inside the morgue, when the casket was opened, the
president's body was in a body bag, a rubberized body bag. Well,
in Dallas, the nurses did notput President Kennedy's body in a body bag
before they put him in the big, heavy ornate Dallas casket. They wrapped
his body and his head with whitesheets. So suddenly somebody has succeeded in

(27:40):
putting the president's body in a bodybag in this shipping casket. So here
you have two yeah, go ahead, yeah yeah. Indeed, as you
say, there are a number ofother people who talk about this as well.
And in my researchers around this,I found a documentary called The Fifth
Estate, which I'll put links toin the show notes. Of course,
there's a guy called Paul O'Connor whoI think was a Navy corsman. He

(28:03):
was a medical technician involved in theautopsy. He told I believe it was
the House Committee assassinations back in theseventies. He also told David Lifton,
the researcher that it was this cheapmetal casket involving a zipper. Now,
the exact quote I think is veryimportant because he claims actually to have seen
the president's body in the context ofthis cheap casket and this zipped bag.

(28:27):
And this is one of the sortof missing links I was looking for,
because you know, did they actuallysee the body? But he claims to
let me quote exactly what he saidhere, because I think it is important.
Quote. He says, it wasa plane casket. And when I
say plane. Now, this isoverdubbed by the narrator, which is a
bit irritating, but he continuously speaks, and then you can hear his voice
again it so it says, andwhen I say plane dot dot dot,

(28:48):
there was nothing fancy about it asfar as being bronze. It wasn't bronze.
We opened the whole casket up andthere was a gray body bag zip
shut. We unzipped the body bag, and the president's body was lifted out
of the body bag. It's completelynaked except for a sheet wrapped around his
head, a bloody sheet. Andthen he says, at some point we

(29:11):
got the last part of the sheetoff. There was a gasp in the
room and I looked down and Isaid to myself, my god, there's
no brain. It's all gone.So he claims actly to have seen the
president in the context of this cheapcasket. Do you know was he part
Do you know whose team he waspart of? As a mutch of interest,
he's part of the autopsy team.I forget what exactly his title is,

(29:32):
but he was one of the autopsyassistants. But I forget what he
actually did, you know, interms of assisting the pathologists during the autopsy.
No, the reason why I askedabout he was part of that team.
Sure. The reason why I askedthat is because Dennis David talks about
his team and Boygen talks about histeam. I know the question could be,
well, are these different teams oreither The most consilient thing to say

(29:56):
is they're all the same team.But I just can't find that. Well,
I could be mistaken because there aremany many moving parts here. And
yes, Paul O'Connor I think waspart of the autopsy team, but I'm
not positive. He may be inpart of the security teams. But what
we're dealing with here is at leasttwo sets. You got essentially three teams.

(30:18):
You've got the team that is carryingthe shipping casket in at six thirty
five pm, and that's important.Then you've got Sam Bird's team that's carrying
the Dallas casket in with the President'sbody at eight pm. And then you've
got the autopsy team of assistance tothe peednologists. Yeah. All very very
strange. Yeah, cries out forwhat's the answer to this. There's just

(30:41):
one more thing that I would liketo run by you. That's odd about
Roger Boygen's report here because he saysthat the members of the of his detail
were posted at various places throughout thecorridors and Morgue entrances, and then he
says the remainder of the night wasrelatively quiet, except for a few minor

(31:02):
encounters with newsmen. So I findthat odd because if the casket came in
at eight o'clock, why is thereno mention of that in his report.
If he's got all these men standingon doors making sure that nothing goes in
or out without them seeing it,all they're reporting as well, we had
interaction with newsmen and that was it. That's a bit odd, isn't it?

(31:22):
Well it is, but it couldbe that he was primarily reporting on
what he participated in. I don'tknow. By the time the ARRB found
him, he could not remember verymuch of what had happened and said essentially
deferred to his report. But there'svirtually no question about the fact that Bird's

(31:44):
team carried in the Dallas casket.There's people on that team that were corroborating
this. There's a guy named HughClark that wrote a book called Betrayal at
JFK. Honor Guard Speaks, wherehe detailed what had happened, and everybody
understood that it was Bird's team thatcarried in. That was their job.
That's what they were called the honorGuard. It was their job to carry

(32:06):
the president's body into the morgue.And so the fact that it wasn't included
in Boygen's report, I think isprobably just because he wasn't part of that.
That's the only thing I can assume. Yeah, that was Bird's job,
and that was in birds report.Yes, I suppose it could have
been just taken as read that thathappened, but that wasn't part of his
you know, it wasn't within hispurview. That's possible. We have been

(32:30):
just going about the body bag.But clearly was some sort of body bag
involved with this. And some peoplecall it clear plastic, other people say
it's black, other people say it'sgray. But there does seem to have
been a body bag involved. Andyou wouldn't have assumed that to be in
connection with the ornate casket, wouldyou. Well, no, it was
clearly not part of the orna casketsituation, because the Dallas nurses established that

(32:53):
they just wrapped the entire body inwhite sheets, put it into the casket,
turned over the top, and sothe body bag is something completely different.
Now, now let me point outthat no one's ever been able to
establish when this switch took place,but clearly, based on the evidence here,
it's somewhere along the way from Parkland. This body was taken out of

(33:17):
the Dallas casket, just taken outand then later put in this shipping casket.
That's the hunch. And it wouldhave been logical for them to do
this at Parkland Hospital, for example, when they first got there or when
Johnson was getting sworn in, Andthey would add a perfect excuse to justify
this because the deputy sheriffs could havebeen rushing to love field right then to

(33:43):
take control over the body because againTexas law required this. So once they
learned that what had happened to EarlRose, so the idea would be,
let's take the body out, throwit into this luggage storage area, and
then if the sheriffs come up,we just give them the empty Dallas casket.
They're not going to open it up. They're gonna think the body's in
there, and then they take offwith the body. But nobody really knows

(34:07):
this. But then when it getsto Bethesda, the idea is that this
body has flown to the Bethesda Morgueand a helicopter and there were helicopters there
that night, and then placed inthe shipping casket, put into the black
Horse, which these enlisted men saidwas filled with men with suits. We
don't know who those men with suitswere. Yeah, drives two or three

(34:29):
minutes to the Bethesda Morgue where it'sthen offloaded at six thirty five pm.
Indeed, we don't actually know whathappened, but something must have happened to
make that switch. Indeed, canI just go I've got to just include
it. As we're in this partof the conversation, there is another piece
of evidence from a guy called Johnvan Hersen. Now he was an Embama.

(34:50):
Is that right with Gaula's funeral home. There is a memo for Gaula's
funeral home which puts this in blackand white. It says name President Kennedy,
Place of death Dallas, address,White House, sent by Colonel Miller,
Date twenty second and November ninety sixtythree. Autopsy, Yes, Bethesda,
Morgue convens US Navy Ambulance in Bama. John van Herzen remarks, Now

(35:14):
listen to these remarks. Body removedfrom metal shipping casket at us NH at
Bethesda. Now my question to youwould be, would you write shipping casket
if you'd remove the body from anornate casket. There's no possibility that you
confuse these two things. When we'retalking about the Dallas casket, we're talking

(35:37):
about the kind of casket that's usedat funerals, huge heavy thing or nate.
It was their most expensive casket,enormously huge and heavy. There's no
way you could one just a fewpeople could pick this thing up. You
needed like six or seven People's thatheavy. A shipping casket is very lightweight.
That was why it was used fortransporting things. And the membo that

(36:00):
you refer to from the Gawller's FuneralHome is very, very important because Galler's
Funeral Home was the most prestigious funeralhome in Washington, d C. At
this time. Missus Kennedy had chosenthem to conduct the funeral, so they
were conducting the funeral, but theywere also doing the embalming. After the
autopsy and the AARRB discovers the existenceof this memo, and the memo had

(36:24):
been kept secret for thirty years alongwith Roger Boygen's report. Keep in mind
that the military was required to turnover to the ARRB all its assassination related
records, it did not turn over. Borgen's report still has it to this
day, and the Gawler's funeral homememo had just stayed secret all this time.

(36:45):
And I'm not really sure how theARRB found it, but clearly the
Gallers representative who identified it was surprisedthat the ARRB had uncovered this thing.
But there it is shipping casket bodyunloaded from the shipping casket, which is
totally different again from the Dallas casket, so more cooperation that the body was

(37:07):
brought in early in the shipping casketand then later introduced again in the Dallas
casket. So we still have theproblem of how do you get the body
back into that Dallas casket so thatit can then be brought in officially at
APM. Now how do we knowit was brought in at APM, because
that's Sambird's report. He had anafter action report that said, my team

(37:31):
and I carry this thing in attwenty hundred hours eight pm. So that's
how we know that there's another introductionof the body into the morgue at eight
pm Sambird's report. Yeah. Wow. Obviously this is a whistle stop tour
about all this information, and I'mwanting to move on now, of course,
to what happened next. So we'llhave to skim over things a little.

(37:53):
And of course people can read yourbook and indeed Doug Horn's book to
get much more information about this.But it's good to have an introduction to
these questions that are there. Soyou're talking about eight PM. Now,
I understand that a guy called ColonelFink, who was a forensic pathologist,
got a call a phone call ateight pm to say, look, we've

(38:14):
got the president's body here at Bethesda. We need you to come and help
with the autopsy please. I believehe said this at the clay Shaw's trial.
So he got this phone call ateight pm and he was told that
they already had X rays of JFK'shead. Now, how is this?
This doesn't make any sense to me. What's your explanation for this? Well,

(38:35):
it all fits in with what we'retalking about. Indeed, the two
principal pathologists were James Humes and Boswell. I forget Boswell's first name, Jay
Thornton Boswell. That's what Boswell's firstname was. So you got Humes in
Boswell. They're Navy pathologists, butthey're not forensics pathologists. They're just regular
pathologists. So Humes decides to callColonel Pier Fink Army because he's a forensics

(39:00):
pathologist, and he calls him ateight pm and says, would you come
and help us with the autopsy?And Fink says yeah. Well, Fink,
as you point out, testifies ina criminal prosecution in New Orleans in
the late nineteen sixties, as wellas he points us out in a report

(39:21):
that he gave it's called a Bloombergreport to his commanding officer that says,
when I got this call at eightpm, I was told by Humes that
they already had X rays of thepresident's head. Well, if Sam Bird's
team, the honor guard is bringingthe body in at APM, which they
did, Okay, there's no questionabout that. How could they already have

(39:44):
X rays when the president's body isbeing brought in at the exact same time
that Humes is calling Fank and saying, we have X rays of the president's
head. Well, could it becould it be that the X rays were
taken at Parkland? Oh, haveyou got any evidence to suggest that?
No, because everybody agrees. Nobodydisputes the fact that there were no X
rays whatsoever taken at Parkland. Theywere trying to save the president's life.

(40:07):
They didn't have time to do Xrays, and the president died within twenty
twenty five minutes, so there wouldhave been no point in doing X rays
after his dead. Of course,so there's no question that's indisputable. Nobody's
ever raised that as a possibility.So that means that's further cooperative evidence.
In fact, it's almost dispositive,corroborative evidence that the body was in there

(40:30):
before Sam Bird's team brought it intothe Dallas casket, which means that the
body was brought in at six thirtyfive pm. During that period of time,
X rays were taken to the President'shead, which then enabled Humes to
make this statement. Not clearly,this is an admission against interest. I
mean, this is very incriminating here. Uh huh, okay, all right,

(40:52):
So that's the idea that you're sayingsomething that you inadvertently say that goes
against your best interests, and thatis in itself very strong evidential criteria.
That's right. The law recognizes thisin criminal cases that when you make an
admission against interest, it is powerfulevidence because it's aching to a confession.

(41:15):
It's not a real confession. Youknow. The law recognized when you confess
to a crime, that's pretty powerfulevidence of guilt. An admission to against
interest is aching to that. Okay, because it's not in your interest to
make this kind of declaration. SoHume screws up when he says we've already
got X rays because he's effectively admittingthe body is already there before Sam Bird's

(41:37):
team brings in at eight pm.All right, So this is the business
where it's so difficult to control allthe information that's inside your head and you
let something slip and you don't realizewhat the future consequences will be of that
when somebody's trying to piece together thenarrative. So that's what's going on here.
Yeah, you know, when you'remaking up a story, there's a
lot of moving parts. If it'sa complex story, it's hard to keep

(42:00):
it all straight. It's hard tokeep it straight with other people. And
you see, this is why Ihave long argued Julian and this was the
power of Doug Horn's book. It'sa five volume book called Inside the Assassination
Records Review Board. Doug Horn servedon the staff of the Assassination Records Review
Board in the nineteen nineties. Hewas a chief analyst for military records and

(42:22):
he ends up writing this five volumebook based on his experience there and primarily
focusing on the autopsy that I hadread many books about the assassination, and
I gradually became convinced that it wasa regime change operation, but not beyond
a reasonable doubt, which is theburden of proof in a criminal case.

(42:44):
I practiced law as a criminal andcivil trial attorney for twelve years. So
that's the way I think. Idon't think in terms of conspiracy theories.
I think in terms of evidence.That's the way I was trained to think.
And so as I read these books, I thought, Okay, they
gradually convinced me that this had happened, but not beyond a reasonable doubt.

(43:05):
When I discovered Doug Horn's book,I crossed that line into beyond a reasonable
doubt. Not because of what happenedin Daley Plaza, because I don't think
anybody can prove that the military orthe CIA assassinated Kennedy beyond a reasonable doubt
in Dalely plasm But once Horne establishedbeyond a reasonable doubt that there had been

(43:27):
a fraudulent autopsy Shenanigan's here, that'swhen it dawned on me that a fraudulent
autopsy has no innocent explanation. Whenthey're sneaking the body in early you know
that this they're up to no goodhere. And once that's established, then
that's what establishes beyond a reasonable doubtthat they orchestrated the assassination, because there's

(43:52):
no innocent explanation for this. Whoelse would they be covering? Up for
especially since Roy Kellerman effectively law she'sinto motion this fraudulent and autopsy immediately on
the president's death, because there's noway to explain Kellerman's actions at Parkland except
that it was already pre planned asto what was going to go on at

(44:13):
bes A Morgue. Well, Ihave to say that the strongest evidence for
this, in my view, iswith regard to the injury in the back
of the President's head, which we'llget onto in just a moment. I
just wanted to come back to thinkand the fact that he also testified to
having been told about these X rays. This was at the House Committee on
Assassinations, House Select Committee on Assassinationsin the nineteen seventies, so he was

(44:37):
before a forensic pathology panel. Ithink it was seventy eight. His quote,
I remember that on the phone,doctor Humes told me he had good
X rays of the head that Iremember. Now. My question here is,
okay, he says he remembers thatthere is a possibility that he doesn't
remember, that it's a false memory. He's made a mistake there. Why
couldn't we not say that it's notactually Hume's letting something slip, but actually

(45:00):
think just didn't remember it correctly.Well, of course that's always possible,
but that's an important thing. Andthe fact that he repeats it. He
repeated it in his Bloomberg Report,which was submitted I think soon after the
events here, when his memory wouldpresumably be very sound, and then in
New Orleans he's under oath, onewould be very careful about what he remembers

(45:22):
and what he doesn't remember when whenhe's testifying under oath. And so the
fact that he states is at leasttwice. Now, you said that he
also stated it before when he testifiedbefore the House Select Committee. I didn't.
I don't recall that. I thinkso. I may have got that
wrong. There's so much information herethat I as possible. I think so

(45:43):
possible. I always thought that hehad done it twice, but it's very
possibly do it three times. Buteven if he does it twice, that
would indicate to me very persuasive evidencethat this is not a memory lapse,
that that it actually happened that way. I think so sorry, I think
it is just twice. I didn'tintend to give the impression that it was
three times. To me, that'svery powerful evidence the fact that he would

(46:05):
put it in a written report andthat then he would testify under oath on
it. So yeah, you know, anything's possible, but I would argue
that that's very persuasive evidence that hedid remember that and that it stuck with
him. Okay, So at theclay Shaw trial, I believe, and
then at the House Select commits yourassassinations those two I think that's right,
the Bloomberg or the Bloomberg report.Okay, yeah, I think it's worth

(46:30):
mentioning also that when Fink did testifythere at the clay Shaw trial, I
think he was in sixty eight orsixty nine, that he was asked,
why didn't you dissect the neck wound? Because that standard procedure you dissect a
wound to see the bullet trajectory,see exactly where the bullet entered, where

(46:52):
it came out. And Fink startedhemming and hind when the prosecutor asked was
asking him about this neck wound,why didn't you dissect it? And he
was filibustering, but it was asharp prosecutor. He was not going to
get finagled by this guy. Andso after he'd give this long winded answer
that didn't answer the question. Theprosecutor just stuck with him and said,

(47:15):
Okay, that's all fine and good, but why didn't you dissect that neck
wound? And Fink goes off intothis song and dance again, and finally
the prosecutor turns to the judge andsays, your honor, would you order
him to answer the question directly?And the judge says, Colonel Fink,
answer the question directly. And thenit comes out. It's clear what he
was trying to hide. He says, I was ordered not to touch the

(47:37):
neck wound. Well, this isextraordinary, Julian. The pathologists are supposed
to be in charge of the autopsy. And when the prosecutor asked him who
issued that order, he said,I don't remember. Well, one are
the chances that somebody's not going toremember an order of that nature. And
so you know that what's so revealingabout this is that somebody is managing this

(48:00):
autopsy. Somebody higher, somebody's overthere getting that black herst to bring the
shipping casket over. Somebody's managing theautopsy that is not the pathologist. They're
there to take orders. That tome was a fascinating revelation. When fake
was clearly trying to hide the factthat he had been ordered this, and
then I think spoke falsely when hesaid he didn't remember who did it.

(48:24):
Yes, indeed, with the DrPerry at Parkland, I believe we have
evidence that he was told to changehis testimony. So we do seem to
have these shadowy figures in the backgroundtelling people they ought to say such and
search and to change what they havesaid. And maybe we'll come to that
in a bit. What come tothis business about the back of the head,

(48:44):
which I think for me anyway,it seems to be the strongest indication
that things were messed about with onthis day. So we have the large
hole in the occipital region that's theback of the head, A little towards
the right is where a lot ofpeople said that Parkland, a lot of
the professionals there and others. Butas far as the official story has it,

(49:07):
it's more towards the top and theright. So that doesn't really,
that doesn't fit. Could you giveus some idea of who the people are
who said this, what kind ofpositions they had, Who are these people
who give a different story. Yeah, this is one of the most revealing
aspects of what was going on here. That when Kennedy is hit in Dealey

(49:29):
Plaza, the shot that many ofus contend happened came in from the front.
If there was at least one shot, there's evidence that may been two
shots that hit him in the head. But when a bullet enters a person's
body, it enters with the sizeof the bullet. It's just a very
small entry room. But because it'spushing mass in front of it, it

(49:51):
blows out the other side if itdoes exit. So Kennedy, according to
the witnesses, and I'll detail thosewitnesses in a minute, had a huge
blowout wound in the back of hishead, like two inches diameter, three
inches in diameter. It just ishuge. They described it as like an
orange size hole in the back ofthe head, in the back of the

(50:12):
head in what was called the occipitalregion of the head. Now, the
occipital region is like if you're lyingin a bathtub and you put your head,
there's a little bump, there's squarelyin the back. So what happened
was doctor Robert McClelland that I wouldinvite your listeners to just google. I
mean this guy was one of themost became one of the most renowned surgeons

(50:34):
in Texas. Very impressive guy.He was in his thirties at this point.
But keep in mind that Parkland Hospitalwas a hospital that specialized in trauma
cases. I mean, if you'regoing to get shot, you'd be hard
pressed to find a better hospital tobe taken to than Parkland. This is
what they specialized gunshot wounds, knifewounds, and it was a training hospital.
This is where they trained physicians whowould be specialized in these kind of

(50:58):
wounds. So these guys knew exactlywhat they were doing. So McClellan walks
into trauma Room one and there's alreadysome physicians there that we're trying to figure
out what was going on. Theywere conducting a tracheotomy on President Kennedy's neck
where the neck wound was in thefront of the neck, and that means
they put a thin slice and theyput a rubber tube there to enable the

(51:22):
president to breathe or plastic tube.Not sure. So McClellan comes to the
head of the gurney where the president'shead was, and he sees this massive
wound and he realizes immediately this isa fatal wound. I mean, nobody
can survive a wound like this.He knew this guy is, for all

(51:43):
practical purposes dead, and so hesays to the other physicians, have you
all seen this? And they saidseen what we just got in here a
few moments before you did. Andhe says, you need to come and
see this. And the reason hesaid that is because there was no point
in trying to save his life.You could not save this man's life,
and so all you could do isjust try to make him as comfortable as

(52:05):
possible before he expired. So theDallas physicians said he had this massive exercise
wound. Well, they were notthe only ones. The nurses said the
same thing. Audrey Bell, shewas one of them. Diana Bowron,
she was another one. Massive exercisedhole. Clint Hill, who we mentioned
earlier, the secret service agent thatjumped on the back of the limousine before

(52:29):
it headed to Parkland. He wascovering President Kennedy's body all the way to
Parkland. He was staring at thishole and he later testified, this massive
exercise hole. You've got Frank StampsI think his name was, or Roy
Stamps. Roy Stamps was a newsmanthat happened to be at Parkland. He
saw it. So you've got allthese witnesses that established this massive hole.

(52:51):
Now here's another interesting aspect of thiscontroversy. The AARRB in the nineteen nineties,
this is more than thirty years afterthe assassination, they discovered the existence
of a woman named Sundra Spencer.Now, Sra Spencer's a fascinating figure in
this too, because she was aNavy petty officer that worked at the laboratory

(53:14):
that developed photographs for the military therein Washington, DC. Very competent woman.
I mean, Sundra Spencer's like aplus when it comes to competence.
Is a military officer, and sheworked closely with the White House, mostly
on the development of social photography,pictures of Kennedy playing with his children and
stuff. So she tells the ARRBa remarkable story. She says that on

(53:39):
the weekend of the assassination, shewas asked to develop the official autopsy photographs
on a classified basis. So shehad kept her secret for thirty years.
I mean, we all know whatclassified means. You take it to the
grave with you. But THERB releasesher from her vow of secrecy, And
so they show her the official autopsyphotographs in the record, which do not

(54:02):
show an exercise hole there. There'sone photograph there that shows the back of
the head to be fully intact,and that was the official version that came
out that there was no exercise holethere, that these Dallas doctors must have
just imagined it. Well, shesays, no, that's not the photograph
that I developed on the weekend ofthe assassination. The photograph I developed showed

(54:25):
a big hole there. I thinkit was like an inch or inch and
a half. I think she hadtold Doug Horn in the telephone interview two
inches. And so she negated thevalidity of this autopsy photograph. So what
she's doing is corroborating what the Dallasphysician said thirty years before. And so

(54:49):
that leaves us with a choice.Either all these people are speaking incorrectly or
falsely, and the military photograph isgenuine, or the they are all speaking
truthfully and correctly, and the militaryhas conducted a fraudulent photograph here, falsely
depicting the back of President Kennedy's head. And that's the choice here. Now,
if you go and look at interviewsthat McClellan did for the rest of

(55:13):
his life. This guy is animpressive guy. He went on. He
became professor emeritus at Southwestern Medical Centerin Dallas, which is this renowned medical
institution. Even today you can findnumerous interviews with McLellan saying, Therry's no
question he had that massive exercise hole. Charles Crenshaw, another physician there,
he wrote a book saying the samething. So that's how we know that

(55:37):
there's fraud in this autopsy, becauseall of these people are so persuasive in
establishing that back of the head holethat is belied by the military's photograph.
Yes, indeed, and what shesays, a blown out chunk about two
to two and a half inches wide, located in about the center of the
back of the president's head. Andyou talked about Clint Hill, So this

(55:59):
was speaking to you, l inspector. So I presume this was the Warren
Commission. He says, the rightrear portion of his head was missing.
It was lying in the rear ofthe seat of the car. His brain
was exposed. I mean, didmister Hill's testimony there get covered in the
Warren Commission report itself? Well,no, because people really didn't pay much

(56:19):
attention to what was going on here. As these people were saying this,
it was just sort of, oh, well, they're just describing the wounds.
They weren't seeing the significance of whatwas going on here. That there
were two separate pictures of what wastaking place, one at Parkland and one
at Bethesda. Now, what wasinteresting is that when the Warren Commission report

(56:40):
came out and then the House SelectCommittee later in the seventies, the notion
was that all the people at Bethesdasaid there was no massive exercise hole in
the back of the head. Well, as it turned out once the documents
got revealed by therb there were peopleat Bethesda that said he had this hole

(57:00):
in the back of his head,and so that was a false statement that
they alleged. So you actually havewitnesses in both places establishing this. But
the official version is with this backof the head photograph that shows the back
of the head to be intact,no massive exercise hole and referring to JFK

(57:21):
revisited by Oliver Stone. That documentarywas brought out a few years ago.
We have a video clip of DrPerry, who was one of those at
Parkland trying to save JFK's life,and he and doctor Kemp Clark gave a
famous press conference shortly after that.Well, there's a surviving video clip of
Dr Perry in this JFK revisited sayingthat there was a large wound to JFK's

(57:45):
head. There was a large woundto his head in the right posterior area,
which is consistent with what he'd initiallysaid about the entrance wound in the
neck. That it was it lookedlike the bullet was coming at him,
he said at this press conference.But later on he seems to have changed
his mind about that. I mean, JFK revisited. It's heavily suggested that

(58:07):
this was because of secret service pressurethat was put upon him to change his
mind. Do you have any viewabout that. It's that your understanding as
well. Yeah, that's an interestingthing that happens, because it's important that
you place yourself in the shoes ofthese physicians at this time. Yes,
at this point in time, therewas overarching faith in the government and the

(58:29):
federal government. It's nothing like itis today and has been ever since the
Kennedy assassination, where people just don'ttrust the federal government. I mean,
you have to assume they're always lying. But at this time, everybody had
faith in the federal government. Imean, it was protecting us from the
communist threat, and people had faithin the military and the CIA. So

(58:50):
Perry and Kemp Clark, who isI think, head of neurology there,
they have a press conference. They'reboth in Trauma one one, and they
have a press conference about an hourand a half after the assassination, and
Perry repeats three times that there's anentry wound in the neck, bullet sized
little hole there, and it's actuallybeing filmed. But lo and behold,

(59:14):
they lose the film. Whoever itis is filming is lost, But somehow
or another, the transcript was preserved. So that's how we know that that
was their opinion that the neck onewas an entry wound. Well, that
night, Perry's assistant says that hecame in and told her. The following
morning, he says, I didn'tget a wink of sleep because they were

(59:37):
calling me all night trying to pressureme in this saying that that was not
an entry wound and this was someFBI agent. So by the time he's
being summoned and to testify for theWarrant Commission. The official version. You
know, everybody's saying, oh thatthe shooters from the rear, Well,

(59:58):
this is enormous pressure on these guys. I mean they have to be put
in a position. Do I wantto say that these pathologists are crooked,
that military pathologists are crooked, thatthey've come up with a fraudulent deal here.
What physician who is starting out hiscareer wants to be put in that
position? And yet that was sortof the position that they were in because

(01:00:19):
the military pathologists, they brought downa copy of the autopsy report an FBI
agent to the Dallas physician saying,this is the official autopsy report and this
is the finding. Well, whatare these Dallas doctors to do? They're
not pathologists, and so they thetendency would be, well, they're the
pathologists. But clearly there's a disconnecthere because they know what they saw.

(01:00:43):
So when Perry is called to testify, what's named spector Arlen Spector creates this
convoluted hypothetical question that is so weirdthat Perry says, well, yeah,
I guess that is possible. Theway you construct the question and then they
took that to mean old Perry's changinghis position on it, when really,
if you look at how ridiculous andconvoluted the question is, he really wasn't

(01:01:07):
changing anything, right, But youcan understand why doctors could be manipulated into
changing or modifying what they said atthe very nine of the assassination immediately they
after, which I say, ismuch more credible as to what a doctor
says immediately after the event, thenseveral months later after he's being pressured to

(01:01:27):
change his mind. Yes, Andwe don't know what the nature of that
pressure was. It might be,as you suggested, a sort of gaslighting
thing going on there, or itcould have been a direct threat, and
that can be very powerful. Imean, it's one of the it's one
of the memes we have going onthis podcast, is you know the phrase,
well don't forget, we know whereyour children are, that kind of
thing. I mean, just somethinglike that, and you, you know,
the best of us are going tochange our minds. Let me let

(01:01:49):
me, if you permit me,let me say something else that these Dallas
doctors testified that or have stated thatthere was Sarah Bellum coming out of this
whole and the reason that's so importantis the cerebellum is that part of the
brain that is in the lower backof the head. And so the only
way that cerebellum could be leaking outis if there is a hole in the

(01:02:13):
occipital region, which as we said, is in the back of the skull.
So that's further corroberative evidence that There'salso what's called the Harper fragment,
and this is a fragment of bone, skull bone that was found the day
after the assassination by a medical studentnamed Billy Harper and lo and behold,
his uncle happened to be a pathologistat Methodist Hospital in Dallas. So he

(01:02:37):
takes this skull bone to his uncle, and his uncle pulls together a team
of pathologists and they study this andthey conclude that this is definitely occipital bone,
which corroborates the fact that there wasthis hole in the back of the
head in the occipital region. Andso they ship the occipable bone to the

(01:02:59):
Harper fragment to Washington and where itis lost forever. Didn't they also conclude
they took pictures of it, didn'tThey also conclude that it wasn't occipital bone
absolutely losing it forever? They hadto because they said there's no hold back
there. They said, oh no, they just made a mistake. But
then they lose the bone, right, and so the facts are fitted around

(01:03:19):
the policy. Again. Yeah,I suppose another This is I'm just being
facetious here, but couldn't it bepossible that somebody else was walking by that
day and just happened to lose theback of their head. Maybe anything's possible.
I was wondering. I just wantedto throw them because I think it's
so priceless. Again, people willknow if they've seen JFK re visited.
And that was a testimony from afriend of Dr Perry who were talking about

(01:03:42):
a minute ago, a certain doctorDonald Miller, who said that he had
a conversation with Perry many many yearslater. Perry was always very reluctant to
talk about the neck wound, butthere was one case where they were just
in the surgeon's lounge and it wasa friendly conversation, and eventually Perry did
say it was an entrance wound,unquestionably entrance wound. He dropped his guard
at that moment, so he camefull circle back to what he originally said

(01:04:04):
in the first place, or thoughtthat was rather nice and importance to mention.
I totally agree. And Miller iscomes across a very credible man.
Yes, And you can understand whyPerry would be reluctant to talk about this
because of his career. He's gota family presumably and so forth. And

(01:04:25):
I mean, look what they didto Crenshaw when Crenshaw came out with his
book. They did everything they couldto destroy him. Now, at this
point, Crenshaw was at the endof his career and so he didn't care.
But imagine in your thirties taking onthe government. They're going to come
after you with everything. And sothere was this huge reticence that Perry had.
But then in this moment he's goodfriends with Miller, who was a

(01:04:47):
physician too, they were cophysicians.He lets his guard down and says,
Yep, it was an interest tohim, There's no question about it.
Yeah, very revealing indeed. Okay, Well, the anomalies don't stop there,
do they, Because we've got thebrain exam. Sorry, the anomalies
don't end there, do they.We've got the brain exam. Now,

(01:05:08):
let me see where do we gowith this? Was there just one brain
exam? Two separate brain exams.We've got a guy called John Stringer,
who I believe was officially the photographerfor this, and yet we've got another
man, another named man who wasclaimed to be a certain Robert Knudsen was
the photographer, but they weren't boththe photographer, and the whole thing is

(01:05:30):
very confusing. Can you explain tous what went on with this supposed brain
exam or brain exams? Okay,Well, if your listeners are not convinced
that there were shenanigans by now,I am almost certain that they will become
so convinced when they hear about thetwo brain examinations, because this really is
this positive And this is when Hornset forth this part in his book.

(01:05:54):
I mean, for me, itwas like, this is beyond a reasonable
doubt that there was a fraudulent autopsy, and therefore they carried out and orchestrated
this assassination. So you I comein it the back way, instead of
establishing guilt by what happened in DealeyPlaza, beyond reasonable doubt, I come
at it. And this is theway Horne does too, that once you
establish a fraudulent autopsy that took placeafter the assassination. You have established that

(01:06:19):
they orchestrated and carried out the assassination. Again, because there's no innocent explanation
for this and the two brain exams, it's just as positive of what happened
here with Shenanigan's with this autopsy.Okay, So this is not to do
with what happened to the brain becausethere's a controversy over that. Isn't that
you're talking about it the exam itself. Yeah, that's really a distraction when

(01:06:42):
people say what happened to the president'sbrain, that really is a distraction that
it's rather irrelevant as to what happenedwith the brain. That there's different explanations.
To me, the most likely oneis that it got interred with the
president's body there at the funeral onMonday. Okay, but it's irrelevant as
to what happened to it. Relevantis that there were two separate brain exams

(01:07:02):
prove it. Now. You mightthink, well, what's unusual about two
separate brain exams, Well, whathappened was and Horn details this again in
his five volume board Inside the AssassinationRecords Review Board, he worked under the
general counsel for ther Be, alawyer named Jeremy Gunn. He would assist
gun in preparation for depositions of thewitnesses and research and so forth. And

(01:07:27):
one day gun calls Horn in andsays, I want you to do a
timeline on the brain exam, becausethe official story is there's one brain exam,
which is standard. Now that thebrain exam is conducted several days after
the autopsy because they need to soakit in a fluid called formulin that firms
it up so that they can cutit like a loaf of bread. That's

(01:07:49):
what I meant earlier about dissecting,so that they can see what the trajectories
of the bullets are and find bulletfragments and so forth. So it can't
be done on the very nine ofthe autopsy. So the official story is
there's one brain exam, which isstandard. You don't have to study the
brain twice. So gun says toHorne, I need you to do a
timeline when it took place, whowas there, etc. Well, Horn

(01:08:13):
is meticulous. I mean, I'venever met more of a perfectionist than Doug
Horn. And we've become French sincethen, and so Horn takes all the
evidence, does his timeline, andhe comes back to Gun's office, and
he's quite concerned because he doesn't knowhow Horn's going to react to what he's
about to say, but tells gunn, I have concluded that there were actually

(01:08:38):
two separate brain exams after studying thisevidence. And he's a little nervous about
this, and Gun responds, well, that was the conclusion I reached,
but I wanted to see if youwere going to reach the same conclusion independently.
Now, there's another thing you shouldknow about the ARRB that when Congress
passed the JFK Records Act, theysaid, your job will be to secure

(01:09:01):
the release of records, but youcannot investigate any aspect of the Kennedy assassination.
They actually prohibited him from doing this, and the board of Trustees for
the RB strictly enforced this prohibition onthe staff. So when they uncovered this
thing of two brain examinations, theycouldn't investigate. They couldn't recall witnesses and

(01:09:23):
say, hey, we want toget to the bottom of this. They
were prohibited. So this is whathappened. Stringer is the official photographer for
the autopsy. There's no question aboutthat. Everybody acknowledges that. Now you
mentioned Robert Knutson, and that's aseparate matter. We'll set that aside for
now, because that's another big historyhere. But Stringer was there at the

(01:09:45):
autopsy conducting the photographs. Very renowneda photographer, official Navy photographer, big
credentials. He taught medical photography thereat the Bethesda Naval Medical School. So
he's also some to take the picturesof the brain during the brain inspection,
which is normal that he would bethere. So he says that he was

(01:10:09):
there and he took pictures of thebrain, which almost certainly were of President
Kennedy's brain, within just two orthree days after the autopsy. And he
says that Humes and Boswell were there, the three of them, and he
said, I use this kind offilm. I took these kind of angles
of the brain and so forth.So they show him the official photographs therb

(01:10:31):
days of the brain and he says, no, those are not the photographs
I took. He says, Ididn't take those angles. I didn't use
that kind of film. And hesays, oh it the brain exam that
I took pictures of they sectioned thebrain like they cut it like a loaf
of bread, which they're supposed todo. But the pictures that he was

(01:10:53):
shown that are in the official recordtoday show a brain that's not sectioned.
It's not cut like a loaf ofbread. Now, once you cut a
brain like a loaf of bread,you cannot put it back together. And
so this would strongly indicate that thephotograph that they have with the brain is
of a separate brain that doesn't belongto President Kennedy. Now, what they

(01:11:14):
also figured out was that Fink said, I was at the brain exam.
I remember Fink was the army colonelthat humans summoned over he became the third
pathologist. He says, I wasat the brain exam. Well, Stringer
says Fink was not there at thatbrain exam. Fink says Stringer was not
there at the brain exam. Finksays it was another photographer, an unidentified

(01:11:38):
photographer. So with the second brainexam, you've got Fink, Humes,
and the unidentified photographer. And that'show they figured out a gun and horn
that we're dealing with two separate brainexams here, and the second brain exam
cannot be President Kennedy's brains because it'snot sectioned like it was the first one.

(01:12:00):
It's a damaged brain, but it'snot a section to brain, and
it's a brain that is consistent withshots having been fired from the rear,
which is what the official story is. Now, where would they have gotten
the sepstitute brain. Well, theyhad a medical school there at Bethesda.
They have brain specimens at medical schools, as you know, they have specimens
of everything there so medical students canpractice on them. So it would have

(01:12:23):
been no, not difficult at allto get a second one. And sure,
finally, let me make this lastpoint. Fink says that the brain
exam took place like six or sevendays later. Yeah, not two or
three days later. So when youadd all this up, Julian, you're
looking at two separate brain exams.Yes, I tend to agree. The
only thing is I would say thatthese statements by Stringer and Fink don't seem

(01:12:46):
quite as strong as you indicated.Let me just check this. So John
Stringer said two or three days afterthe assassination, Dr James Humes was there.
Dr j Thornton Boswell was there.No. He says that he's not
sure about Dr Pierre Fink. Soon the phone, Horn says, was
doctor Fink present at the brain exam? Stringer says, I don't think I

(01:13:06):
remember him. I'm not sure,which highly suggests the think wasn't there,
but it's not absolute statement. Andthen with Dr Pierre Fink, he says,
five or six days after the assassination, says yes, indeed, Dr
James Humes was there, Doctor jThornton Boswell was there, But as regards

(01:13:27):
John Stringer, yeah, I thinkhe just says that he's yeah. So
the gun asks him, do yourecall whether there were any photographers present at
the supplementary brain exam? And Finksays, I don't. I don't recall.
So in both cases they're not actuallysaying that the other was not there,
but they just couldn't recall. Theyweren't sure. Okay, I stand
corrected. I'm not trying to pickyou up. I'm just just no,

(01:13:48):
it's good good I couldn't find themin each case definitely saying that the other
was not there. But I meanit's highly suggestive because you know, in
such circumstances you're pretty much going throughan I think who was there, and
who wasn't there? Isn't there somethingabout the brain also being the wrong weight
that you would expect it to belighter because of the damage that it sustained,

(01:14:11):
and yet it's supposedly look a bitheavier than usual. Yeah, that's
another fascinating aspect. Everybody agrees thatKennedy had was shot in the head.
I mean, that's undisputed. There'sdifferences as to where the bullet came in
and where an exited, but there'sno question that he had a huge amount
of his brain blasted out by thatshot. I forget exactly what the numbers

(01:14:34):
are. You might have him infront of you, that the average person's
brain weighs a certain amount. Whenthey weighed this brain, and this is
in the autoch report, the officialbrain that was at the second brain exam,
it actually weighs more than the averageperson's brain. That's impossible, I
mean, because the everybody agrees itwas like at least twenty percent, some

(01:14:58):
people said thirty percent. There isno way that it could have weighed more
than the average person's fully intact brain. That's how you asked on the assumption
Shenangan's going on here, and didwasn't there also somebody who examined the photographs
of this brain and said that there'san indication in the coloration of the brain
that he doesn't match the timescale ofwhat was described with that brain. Isn't

(01:15:21):
there something along those lines as well? I don't recall that. Very possible,
but I don't recall that point.That's an interesting point. Fair enough,
there's so much there's so much informationhere. Can you say something about
the case of Robert Knudsen, becausehe was it was claimed in his a
couple of bar a couple of ohdear, what's the word when you die?

(01:15:45):
Dear obituary? I'm so sorry.I had a couple of obituaries in
papers that he had been the photographerfor the autopsy. I think he'd said
in a magazine Popular Photography magazine thathe was the only photographer to record the
autopsy. Do we know what hephotographed? Do we know what his role
was in this? He seems astrange figure. Really, this is one

(01:16:10):
of the most mysterious aspects of thisentire case. It's just absolutely fascinating.
According to Doug Horn that the nameis pronounced Knutson. Oh, just just
you know, point that out.But that's why I'm going to pronounce it
differently from that you were pronouncing it. But Knutson was the social photographer for

(01:16:30):
the White House, and this guy'sreputation was impeccable. Everybody apparently loved Knutsen.
He was the guy that would takethe photographs of President Kennedy playing with
his kids, the photographs that SaundraSpencer would then be charged with developing over
at the photography lab. He workedfor many presidents. I think he was
working for Eisenhower and then after Kennedy, Johnson and then Nixon. This guy's

(01:16:57):
reputation was just impeccable professionalism. Buthe was a social photographer. He wasn't
like an autopsy photographer like Stringer was. Right. So, by the time
the Assassination Records Review Board is calledinto existence in the nineteen nineties, Canutson
has passed away. I think hepassed away in nineteen eighty nine or thereabouts.

(01:17:17):
But his wife was still alive andhis children were still alive, and
so they were interviewed by the AssassinationRecords Review Board and they told this remarkable
story that on the weekend of theassassination on Friday of the assassination, Canutson
is summoned to come out to Andrew'sAir Force Base, presumably to help with

(01:17:38):
the autopsy. And he's gone thewhole weekend and he comes back after the
weekend and he tells his wife,I cannot tell you the details of what
I did, but it's the hardestthing I ever did. I was the
photographer for the autopsy, and itwas just very very painful because he obviously
was very close to Kennedy. Imean, he had been taking all these

(01:17:59):
social photographs and so forth, andhe didn't give her any details. As
a digression, I should mention thateverybody that was most everybody that was involved
in the autopsy were required to signsecrecy oaths. All the people we've talked
about, the helpers and so forth, they were sworn to secrecy, told
this was highly classified and they couldnever talk about what they had seen or

(01:18:20):
heard. And this is the wayCanuson was operating, that he could not
detail what had happened. Well later, he was summoned to go and examine
the photographs of the autopsy. Iforget when that was, but I think
it was during the House Select Committeeon assassinations thereabouts in the nineteen seventies that

(01:18:40):
had reopened the investigation in the Kinneyassassination. And after he did that,
he came home and he told hiswife. According to his wife, he
says, I want you to knowsomething. I can't go into details,
but there are shenanigans going on withthese photographs and this autopsy, and I
want you to know that if thisever blows up, I would not part
of it. Because he was veryconcerned that his wife and kids might think

(01:19:03):
that he was involved in some shenaniganshere. But he clearly said there were
shenanigans based on the photographs that hehad seen. Well, then he gives
us interview I think it was innineteen seventy seven to this popular magazine photography
magazine, National Magazine, where hesays, you know, I can't talk
about the details, but I wasthe photographer for the autopsy. Well,

(01:19:25):
if he was lying, if hewas making this story up, he would
have been uncovered. I mean,people would have come forward immediately saying you're
a liar. You weren't there.But Stringer was the official photographer. And
there's no question but that Stringer wasthe official photographer for the autoi. There's
also no question but that Canusan wasnot there during the autopsy. That's undisputed.

(01:19:45):
But here's a man saying I'm theofficial photographer for the autopsy. In
the magazine, he says he wasthe only photographer to record the autopsy.
Yeah, so that's very clear.Yeah. Now, there's no possibility in
any reasonable sense that he's making thisup because he would be called out on
it immediately. You know, ifhe's making up a story like that on

(01:20:06):
something this important, he would havebeen canned. There's no way he would
have continued working there. And sothen when he dies, there's obituaries in
the Washington Post New York Times thatsays he was the photographer for the autopsy.
Now, undoubtedly his family gave thatto the newspapers, but the fact
that the newspapers published it is veryfascinating because there's no question but that he

(01:20:30):
was not the photographer for the autopsy. So what's going on here, Well,
clearly he is photographing some process regardingthis body that he is made to
believe is the autopsy. Right,that's either before during that period of time
of six thirty five to eight PMthat we talked about the body being sneaked

(01:20:51):
in there, and they're clearly shenanigan'staking place with the body. There's no
other reason why they would bring thebody in early like that. So he's
either photographing parts of that process there, or I think more likely he's making
photographs of post mortem after the autopsyphotographs, maybe after the embalming. Maybe

(01:21:13):
that's what he's doing. We don'treally know what he was photographing that evening.
All we know is that he isconvinced that he was photographing the autopsy,
and therefore he was photographing something,some process in here, which is
to me so powerful evidence that thereare shenanigans going on here. Yes,
it does seem to fit with whatwe said before. So under I suppose,

(01:21:38):
under a doctrine of compartmentalization, hedoesn't know what's happened before. He's
just doing his little bit in thewhole process, and as far as he's
concerned, it's all legitimate and aboveboard. He just doesn't know what else
anybody else is doing exactly. Hehas no role in the autopsy itself.
He thinks that whatever he's doing isthe autopsy, and they lead him to

(01:21:59):
believe that, and he didn't knowany better. He's a so social photographer.
He didn't know what an autopsy isinvolved in that it takes two or
three hours. And this man isclearly his integrity is beyond reproach. And
so yeah, it's a highly compartmentalizedoperation taking place here, all top secret.
You see, this is the fascinatingpart of this thing. But this

(01:22:20):
was always their achilles heel, Julian, The autopsy was always their achilles heel
because they had to depend on peoplethat were not part of the assassination in
What they had to hope for isthat they could maintain secrecy long enough where
people would lose interest and to alargest and it was successful because here in
the nineteen nineties, when this evidenceis getting revealed Saundra Spencer and so forth,

(01:22:43):
the mainstream press is yawning, oh, well, yeah, no big
deal, but this is massive,incriminating evidence. But the secrecy works for
some thirty years, so by thetime the stuff starts coming out, there's
relative indifference of the part of themain strea press. Like on the two
brain examinations, they actually got reportedby the Associated Press and by the Washington

(01:23:06):
Post. It's one of the fewtimes that the mainstream press report is and
you can find that online, thosetwo articles. But do you think that
anybody, any investigative reporter, followedup on this and said, you know,
this is something really worth investigating.I'm an investigative reporter. I'm going
to get to the bottom of this. The ARRB can't investigated, but I

(01:23:27):
can. And here it is inthe Washington Post, the Associated Press.
I'm going to follow up on this. There is no indication that any investigative
reporter in the country followed up onthat. Yeah, so that's where the
secrecy was successful, right. Indeed, so these are links that were in
your book, actually, because I'vegot the kindle version of that and it
links through to these two archived articles. So yes, okay, so we've

(01:23:47):
got the Washington Post archived photos notof JFK's brain concludes aid to Review Board.
That's nineteen ninety eight, and thenthe other one from the Associated Press
here nineteen ninety eight. Newly releasedJAFF documents raise questions about medical evidence.
Very good articles. So presumably onewould think that these articles have been debunked,

(01:24:09):
somebody's looked into it. No,you're saying nobody's bothered to follow up
on this at all. That's right, Yes, exactly right, and they
beg for that type of thing.Any investigative reporter would say, I can
make big headway on my career bygetting to the bottom of what's going on
here. But there's no indication thatany such investigation took place. And again,
let me emphasize that a RRB staffcould not investigate this, which is

(01:24:32):
really bizarre, Julian. Why wouldsomebody slip a provision in the law that
says, if you uncover the fraud, you are prohibited from investigating that fraud.
Yeah, well I can think ofreasons why. But yes, well
reasons why that suggests foul play inthemselves. Indeed, Yeah, what the
RB Board of Trustees really should havedone was ask Congress for an expansion of

(01:24:57):
their authority to investigate these things.Now that's really what should have happened here.
Well, I have my dads thatthey would have been given that authority
anyway, Yeah, perhaps they shouldhave done that, I suppose. The
last thing I'd like to say isthat you brought up the Zabruda film earlier
on in the conversation, and Ithink a lot of people would say,
when you look at that film,you do, in fact have evidence in

(01:25:19):
front of your eyes that there couldn'thave been a massive wound in the back
of President Kennedy's head. We seeit more towards the top and the right
and the front. It was veryclear blood comes out there at the back.
It seems to be intact. Soit kind of defeats everything that you
said here today. But as indeedyou indicated earlier on, we do have

(01:25:41):
reason to believe that the Zabruda filmitself, as we've seen it, has
been messed about with. Now,obviously we can't go into that at all
today, there isn't time to dothat. Would you be prepared at some
point to discuss that with us?Absolutely would love to, because that's really
dispositive. They are topsyed is dispositiveon the military's role in this regime change

(01:26:03):
operation. The Zebruder film is dispositiveof the CIA's role in this because,
as I point out in my book, the CIA, unbeknownst to anyone except
obviously the insiders, took possession ofthat film on the day after the assassination.

(01:26:23):
And so I would love to discussThat's the subject of my book and
Encounter with Evil, the Abraham's aBreeder story. And you mentioned earlier Dino
Brugioni, who was a CIA official, top notch guy. I mean,
this guy is a renowned photo analyst. He participated in the Cuban missile crisis
photographs. He worked for the CIA, and people can google Dino Brugioni and

(01:26:45):
see this guy is renowned. Heplayed a very critical role in revealing what
happened on that assassination and people canfind that interview online with Doug Horn and
an author named Peter Janney. ButI detail all this in my book,
An Encounter with Evil, and Iwould love to come back and discuss it
with you. That would be wonderful. I'll get a copy of your book
and look into that in more detail. But you know, I suppose you

(01:27:09):
know, without hearing that conversation,which hopefully we will have, or looking
at that information online, you couldthink, well, this is such a
massive operation, this is such anextravagant conspiracy theory. How could they possibly
have controlled so much? You know, you've got to control the autopsy,
you've got to control the film,you've got to control everything what people say,
and does it not strike you onthe surface that this is too difficult

(01:27:31):
to believe. No, because thefact is that the military can keep secrets,
and so especially the CIA. Imean, when you read my book
and Encounter with Evil, you cansee how they kept secret their control over
the Zebruder film for forty years untilBrugioni finally reveals what happened in Brugioni worked

(01:27:53):
for the CIA, and I thinkBrugioni by all accounts, was violating his
oath to keep it secret, buthe did anyway. But when you look
at these secrecy oaths that they requiredeverybody to take, it is a massive
operation. But they succeeded in thatsecrecy. Like Saundra Spencer, she's an
unwitting participant in this developing these photographs. She keeps her secret for thirty years,

(01:28:17):
not because she thinks, I needto cover this up, but because
that's just the culture of the military. Now we can see why they felt
it imperative to put the autopsy inthe hands of the military, because they
can just classify everything, They canmake everybody take vows of secrecy. They
can threaten them with court martial,with criminal prosecution, which is what they

(01:28:38):
did when they made them sign thesesecrecy oths. So the National Curity Establishment
is a customer of these kind ofmassive operations. We can compare them to
like their regime change operation in Guatemala, Iran, Chile in the seventies.
The first two took place before theKennedy assassination. The assassination plots against Fidel
Castro they kept secret for many years. Yeah, they they are able to

(01:29:00):
keep secrets, but not obviously forever. While that's coming out. Yeah,
so this idea somebody would have talked, somebody would have talked, we're told,
but there are mechanisms to prevent peoplefrom talking, and even when they
do talk, to make them lookinsane, or to get them to change
their story. That all kinds ofthings, all kinds of pressures that can
be brought to bear. It's alsoworth mentioning that that their cover up is

(01:29:21):
continuing. Notice how that there's stillsome thousands of records left that they say
they can't reveal because of national securityconcerns. That's just laughable. Yeah,
I mean the United States is goingto fall into the ocean, yeahn't.
I can't think what that could beexcept to undermine people's trust in the establishment,
which well, perhaps there shouldn't bethat level of trust. It's ludicrous,

(01:29:45):
it is, it is. Well, thank you ever so much,
Jacob for this second conversation. Wonderfulto have this conversation with you, with
all this detail, which I feellike we have just scratched the surface.
There is so much more to lookinto, and I do recommend that people
read your book, as I've saidbefore, and if they can bring themselves
to actually get hold of Doug Quorn'sfive volume magnum Opus, I recommend that

(01:30:06):
as well, particularly with your book. Yeah, I feel like there were
still things that we I'd like tohave talked about, but it's just not
possible. We've got to close anyminute now, So again, thank you
ever so much, and also foragreeing to speak about the Zabruda film because
that is a fascinating subject to talkabout that directly connects with this. So
I look forward to that conversation perhapsat some point in the new year,

(01:30:27):
if that's okay with you, that'dbe great. Thank you very much,
thank your listeners, and I appreciateyou having me on to discuss this.
It's still an important topic, itabsolutely is. Thank you ever so much.
Wonderful conversation. Are you welcome?Show Notes for this program can be
found at the mind renewdthmind renewed dotcom podcast. Music by the brilliant Anthony

(01:30:48):
Rajakov, attribution on commercial share likefour point zero International. You have been
listening to me, Julian Charles andmy guest Jacob Hornberger, and I very
much look forward to speaking to youagain in the near future. Karaam

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