TMR 304 : Eraserhead (1977) (Movie Roundtable)

“It is a personal film, and no reviewer, or critic, or viewer has ever given an interpretation that is my interpretation.”—David Lynch For the 15th Movie Roundtable here at TMR we welcome back our good friends Frank Johnson, Antony Rotunno and Mark Campbell for another four-way discussion, this time on David Lynch's cult surrealist "horror" film Eraserhead from 1977. Or is that perhaps not quite right? Each of us in the discussion loves the film Eraserhead (for various reasons), but I don't think any of us finds it exactly horrifying. Certainly, my reaction is more one of bemusement plus amusement, and the feeling that I'm a fly on the wall inside someone else's nightmare. So perhaps it would be better (for me) to call Eraserhead a "cult surrealist dark comedy nightmare film"? Or maybe that's not quite right either. Perhaps: a "cult surrealist nightmare-that-is-somehow-also-dark-comedy-without-ceasing-to-be-a-nightmare film"? That works for me, but I'd be just as happy to say that this film—which seems as strange today as when it first came out back in 1977—simply defies description. Join us as we discuss the film's production, ponder its meaning(s)—or lack thereof (?)—and consider what this "dream of dark and troubling things” might have to "say" to us today. [For show notes please visit https://themindrenewed.com]

Episode Transcript

(00:10):
Hello everybody, Julian Charles hit offtheminds Renewed dot Com coming to you as
usual from the depths of the languishcountryside here in the UK, and welcome
to TMR number three hundred and fourth, or the fifteenth of our cultural round
tables, in which we are discussingfilms or other types of production that have
some kind of relevance to themes exploredon the mind Renewed over the last decade

(00:32):
or so. Although this might bethe first exception to that, the exception
that proves the rule, so tospeak, because I'm not absolutely sure how
our film today fits into the TMRcanon, as it were, other than
to say it's sort of dystopian andwell it feels right to me anyway.
But maybe we'll come up with areason why we're discussing as we go along.
We're going to be discussing the excellent, bizarre early film by US filmmaker

(00:58):
David Lynch called Error is a Headfrom nineteen seventy seven. And to discuss
this particular movie, this cinematic event, we're joined once again by Arstella cultural
critics Frank Johnson in Crazy California,Mark Campbell in Cozy Crayford and Anthony Ratuno
in an undisclosed location in his capacityas fact checker for BBC Verify here in

(01:22):
the UK. Gentlemen, I welcomeback to the TMR frand table. Hello,
thank you. I'm actually going toreveal that I live in Tunbridge.
I just want to tell the world. I'll give you my address later.
Okay, very good, No,why not? I think people have been
wondering, so not that far frommarket now. I've got to keep that
going though, Anthony. Anyway,so great to be speaking to you all

(01:45):
again, So let's do a quickbit of catching up then. So Mark,
I believe, fellow, you aregetting married very soon, am I
I think so? Yes, Wellyou've you've certainly invited me so oh yeah,
that's true. I hope there's somethingto go to as we speaks.
In a week's time, Yes,a week really, okay, it's already

(02:06):
happened by the time, just comesout exactly. It's in the future now
and in the past when you listen. That's true. It will be winter.
Yeah. Yeah, gosh, howbizarre. Yeah, I'll be a
changed man. I'll be a changedman. That's actually quite suitable for our
film today, isn't it. ApparentlyI must have been watching it before and
after. When I first watched it, I had no children watching afterwards.
With children, it's quite a differentreading of the film. Yeah, indeed,

(02:30):
Anthony, how are you doing?Is it his work going well?
Yeah, very well. Only gotthree jobs at the moment. I'm part
of the gig econdomy. I supposejust moved flat within Tunbridge. Apparently it's
the second most stressful thing after divorce. And I've never been married, so
it's possibly the most stressful thing.No, I went very well. Yeah.
Have you ever been divorced? No, I've never been married or divorced

(02:53):
toe, So no, going verywell. Yes, another fairly successful year
in podcast lands, so looking forwardto this as well. Very good.
Frank are you there? You're there? Excellent. You've parked your car at
long last year. You're driving awayfrom me. I have my car.
How is the car you had aYeah, I lost my chiropractor. The

(03:15):
car is seen better days. Hada bit of an auto accident on Tuesday
and it's about four thousand dollars worthof damage at least, So trying to
coordinate getting that fixed quite a bitof drama. Yeah, sorry about that,
but you're okay ish I I thinkyou said you were driving away from
your chiropractice. That suggests perhaps youcan get away with it absolutely lightly.

(03:39):
Yeah, I know you have to. He's got to straighten me out again.
Things are a bit tight and sore, and hopefully we'll be on the
men shortly because it sucks having togo to the chiropractor. Anyway, glad
that you're here now and able totalk with us about this excellent film.
So let's turn to the movie then. I think we're all familiar with this.

(04:00):
I saw it very very many yearsago. I think in the eighties,
probably around the same time as Mark. No doubt you'll tell me.
Mark, you've got your diary withyou. You'll probably say exactly the day
that I saw it. Anyway,it made it, I will, you
will. I'm sure you will.Made a huge impression on me, fitted
with my general interest in modern music, modern art, performance art, and
comedy. Actually, I've always thoughtthis is hilarious. I'm sure some people

(04:20):
think I shouldn't find it hilarious,but I do, in a black sort
of way, find it really reallyfunny. What it really appealed to me
was a combination of the surreal andthe humor and the black and white somehow
big thing about it, and thesoundscape. You know, coming from a
musical background, soundscape is so important. And I really really loved jack nance
since having seen him do this performance. Anyway, at your reactions, gentlemen,

(04:42):
I think i'd seen it twice orthree times. I think I recorded
it off for Telly. I tendedto do that in the early days and
then watch things ad nauseam, butI only watched this two or three times.
I remembered the black and white.I remember Henry and his hair,
and I remembered how weird it was. He actually watched it last Sunday,
and it was kind of effect becauseI came home from work. It's about
four o'clock. I was a bittired, as in that slightly hazy state

(05:05):
getting dark outside, and it justsort of worked perfectly for a Sunday afternoon.
Somehow, I think the good andgreat films, and I don't know
whether i'd call this a great film. Possibly I would if I watched it
a couple more times. They getbetter and they get more interesting, and
I get into a sort of mode, you know, podcast preparation mode.
All the experience seemed to get heightenedsomehow, and it really did have an

(05:27):
effect on me. And true toform with this film, I wasn't quite
sure what the effect was. Ijust knew that it was interesting spending an
hour and a half in this worldbecause it's a very very unique world.
So yeah, I very much enjoyedit. Yeah, I guess everybody has
a different experience, a very personalexperience whilst watching it. I mean,
I agree that when I saw itrecently to analyze it a bit for the

(05:49):
podcast, it was quite a differentexperience from the times i'd seen it before.
It felt so much more tight.I realized that everything was planned,
and everything was very deliberate. Soeven there's very long silences, and they
were intended to be there, andI'd always thought them they're funny, and
they are funny. But you know, and when I first saw I thought
this is rambling. I don't thinkit's rambling at all. I mean,

(06:11):
it's very cleverly put together. Frank, Yeah, I'll say something about it.
I do think you said last timethat you love it. You love
this film. Yeah, I dolove this film. It's one of my
favorites just because it's so weird andout there, and I don't even know
how I came across it. Ithink, you know, growing up,
i'd seen it like in video storesor like i'd see you know, Henry's
face on the cover, and I'dbe like, what is this movie about,

(06:33):
and and like, I've never hadany interest to see it. But
then I worked with this guy wholiked weird movies, and he'd mentioned the
Eraserhead every now and then, andI'm like, well, I got to
see this, and by that time, like it was basically like out of
print everywhere. I can never finda copy. But you know, when
I moved to California, like sixyears ago, one of the libraries here

(06:53):
had it, and so I watchedit. Unfortunately, I didn't have the
chance to watch it before having children, as after I had children. So
but yeah, I watched it sixyears ago and never watched it again,
but always wanted to see it again, and I watched it again for this
show. You know, watch someof the extras, some of his shorts
films, and it's all just veryweird, unique stuff. But I really

(07:14):
like the surrealness of it. Thesound design I'm a big fan of,
like a dark, ambient industrial soundscapesanyways, And just the black and white.
I think this movie is like that. It's in black and white.
It's just so perfect for this movie. So yeah, quite an experience.
It's hard to imagine what it wouldbe like in color. No, Just

(07:34):
one very quick thing. I alwayslove when I find out that something that
looks random has been crafted. Ithink it's really attractive about that, or
something very impressive. I mean,this is not similar, but the music
of Frank Zeppa. I've become areal Zeppa fan, and I'm not comparing
it to raise the head, butit seems silly and everything. But then

(07:55):
you realize there's an intellectual mind behindit. And I don't know where that's
cool Lynch and intellectuals suppose maybe,But it's great when something that seems off
the cuff isn't. I like thatfor some reason. Yeah, I mean
the music in this I'm thinking ofthe Fats Waller organ music seems random.
Yes, it seems kind of appropriatein its inappropriateness, if that makes any

(08:18):
sense. Why are you playing thissort of sickly joyful music from another era
in this context? What sense doesthat make? And it seems perfect to
me though, so it's obviously deliberatelychosen, and yeah, it seems so
random, so well, just getthis in, just get this in there,
very very quickly. It made methink of the Shining because you know

(08:39):
there's those Ray Noble songs, youknow, mid Night and it's something about
jaunty music in a disturbing setting thatmakes the setting five times more disturbing.
You know. That's the contrast.Yes, the irony, I suppose.
Yeah, indeed, the position,the juxtaposition. Yeah, yeah, that's
come up many times in our conversations. Yeah, go on, and Mark,

(09:01):
you're going to tell me exactly thedate that I saw it. Yeah,
well, if you saw it live, you would have watched it on
Friday, the twenty fifth of Januarynineteen eighty five. Wow, could well
have been. I think you hada video recorder then, so you might
have recorded it. Might have beenboth. Yeah, it was on Channel
four and in my direct says aboutto watch a rais ahead, so I'll

(09:24):
break off back again. Quite weirdfilm, but extremely boring. Exclamation mark.
That's a good thing. Already abreak and nothing's happened, superb.
So I was really keen on boredom. And then the next day I say,
thought about the excellence of a raiserhead a film which gets better the

(09:45):
more I think about it, Soi'd really know that the boringness was a
really good thing. It was areal compliment. Yes, you're right,
because the boredom is a feature,isn't it. Yes, that's the thing,
totally. It's like those long silenceswhere people are sat in a lounge
and they're not talking into each other. Yes, that's boring, but it's
the guts to do that. Itwas astonishing as a filmmaker, oh totally.

(10:05):
And in terms of editing the wayyou know, you'll get a shot
of an urban landscape for about twoseconds, then Henry will walk into view
and walk across the screen and walkoff, and then there'll be two seconds
afterwards. Now, most people wouldcut cut the two seconds outside, but
literally deliberately keeping the pace monumentally slow, which is brilliant. And talking about

(10:26):
the black and white, I watchedit on a little black and white Telly
and I didn't know it was blackand white. So yeah, so I
think I had a conversation with youor someone else and they say, oh,
no, it is a black andwhite film, okay, because I
thought I was missing something, butobviously it's perfect. I can't imagine it
with color, No, absolutely not. And do you think with some of
those scenes where he carries on whereit would otherwise be cut was said by

(10:50):
another filmmaker, is that the painterin him lingering on a bit of scene
that could in fact a standalone asare still life kind of thing. Quite
a mom of shots feel like thatto me. Yeah, there's one particular
one later on with the lady andthe radiator has been seeing and the weird
thing where his head's on the floor, and I'll come to it later,
but that all seems like a stilllife to me, And I just wonder
what that sensibility is there throughout thefilm. Yeah, I mean, if

(11:13):
we're going to talk about the dreamnight quality, it's just a weird playing
around with time almost. You know, when you have a very vivid dream,
you might fall asleep and you're asleepfor ten minutes and you wake up
and you've had a very vivid dreamwith a proper story and people you've met,
places you've been to, etc.And you think, how could that
happen in ten minutes? And thefilm almost does a similar thing. Yes,
with the passage of time in there, you're kind of following this person,

(11:35):
you're following it, and the sortof the film is over. You
think it feels like a story,it feels like a narrative, but you
can't grasp it. Yes, youknow, Yes, I think you're absolutely
right. Well do we not findthat later on in mul Holland Drive.
It makes absolutely He really goes bigon that sort of Oh yeah, and
you cannot make sense of it.As you said, characters are swatted and

(11:56):
scenes are interconnected with other scenes.This is a narrative, but no it's
not. Oh it's what was anunimportant bit of the narrative is now the
main bit that makes sense to talkjust like a dream. Yeah, so
the beginning of that was happening herefor sure. Yeah. I mean I
have a very vivid dream life.Actually, just as Mark's been keeping a
diary, I've been writing my dreamsfor about twenty years or so. Oh

(12:18):
wow, right, and I getthat a lot. I get two different
time periods in the same dream.So I'll often get a kind of Christmas
Carol style one where I'm back atmy old school, but I know that
I'm Anthony from twenty twenty three,Tway two or whatever it is, So
I'm not uncomfortable with that in afilm. And maybe this is a reflection
of film, because if you thinkabout it, film has a sense of

(12:39):
reality, but there's all kinds ofillusions going on under the surface. Yeah,
and it's very clear that Lynch doesdescribe this as a very dark dream
or something like that, so itvery clearly is a dream. And it's
there's got to be an autobiographical elementto this as well, which we'll talk
about in a bit. I'm surewhen we talk about interpretations meanings of it,
at least that much is clear.So but what other I've mentioned Mulholland

(13:03):
Drive, which is another one I'veseen, so that's two thousand and one.
I've seen The Straight Story from nineteenninety nineteen. I've seen Dune and
Blue Velvet a long long time ago. Oh, the Elephant Man. Anybody
seen any other things by him?Lost? I've seen Dune, all right.
Yeah. My dad wants me towatch twin Peaks and it's on my
list because it's David Lynch, butI haven't got around to it yet,

(13:26):
nor I I haven't seen any ofthe TV series of Twin Peaks at all
one frame of it. Yeah.Has anybody seen Twin Peaks the TV series?
Yeah? Yeah, you have,probably about ten years ago. Now.
I had a box set because Ithink I'd given up on it when
it was on Tenny because it's almostwilfully surreal, you know, almost like
he's saying to people, I'm goingto make this so obscure you you're not
going to understand it at all.And I got a bit okay, I've

(13:48):
found a bit tricksy. I supposeis it cleverly surreal like Mullholland Drive or
is it just sort of all overthe place. It's a bit odd.
It's a bit I mean, he'sin it, plays a character in it,
and some of them, but heis so cheesy you just think,
this is what's he doing here withthis comedy? It's so well, it's
a weird mix of deeply disturbing andcomedic. And does it work. I

(14:09):
don't know. It might be thetelevision format just it doesn't quite. It's
really interesting. It's worth watching,but I'm not sure. And I think
also, I can't remember there wassomething where he came away from it after
about fifteen episodes or that. Itfeels like the story finishes and then it
carries on for another eight episodes orso. It's a very strange beast the
TV series. Do you think there'san element of it to create so much

(14:33):
material that it likes its quality?Quite? I think it felt like he
was either he was burnt out,or he was replaced, or I think
a committee came and said, well, what is going on here? His
vision was sort of watered down abit in perhaps the last third, and
then he come I think he comesback at the end, and it ends
rather extraordinarily nightmarishly. There's a lotin it. There's a lot in it.

(14:54):
Elephant Man's one of my probably alltime favorite films. It's quite Yeah,
I don't think you necessarily guess itwas a Lynch film, but then
when you know you get the industrialsettings there. It's quite commercial for one
of his films, isn't it?Or quite accessible we're talking about, Yeah,
much more coherent Than's Head. Yeah, yeah, thank goodness for mel

(15:18):
Brooks. Absolutely, I didn't.I hadn't realized that he was behind the
success of Elephant Man. Yeah,Yes, he really liked the script,
and in fact, he didn't knowanything about David Lynch, so he wanted
to watch a Rais Ahead, andI think he really liked Aras Ahead and
that helped to persuade him to backit. Yeah, yeah, Okay,
Well, I think for probably alarge proportion of the audience don't know this

(15:41):
film, I need to give somesort of indication of what it's about.
So I'm going to give a plotsummary here, which I'm going to admit
that I took the basis of fromWikipedia because I thought it was well written.
I thought I'll cut it down,make it shorter, and then I
kept on putting more things in becauseI thought he could to explain. This
could explain. So it's actually longerthan the piece in with Fedia anyway,

(16:03):
So here we go. So thefilm starts with Henry Spencer, a young
man with extremely tall hair and apermanent expression of melancholy, amusement and resignation,
having his face superimposed over the imageof a dark and barren planet.
Henry opens his mouth and something likea huge spermatozoon comes out. We see
a diseased looking man inside that planet, straining to pull three libs, and

(16:26):
then the spermater zone swims off.We next see Henry in industrial wasteland,
walking home with a bag of shopping. When he reaches the door of his
bedsit, he's interrupted by the beautifulgirl across the hall. That's her name,
The beautiful girl across the hall whoseems to be his neighbour, but
they each behave as if they've neverseen each other before. She tells him

(16:47):
that his girlfriend Mary is expecting himfor dinner at her parents' house, so
later on he goes there. Whenhe gets there, the conversation is extremely
uncomfortable, long silences, awkward questions, very people having fits, puppies noisily
suckling, Mary's father complaining about hisknees, and grinning fixedly. And to

(17:07):
top it all, the chicken dinnerseems still to be alive even though it's
cooked, and Mary's mother, afterinexplicably trying to kiss Henry, informs him
that Mary has had a baby andthat they now need to get married,
although Mary seems to be unsure thatit actually is a baby. Thus presumably
married, the happy couple, atleast for a few seconds, move into

(17:30):
Henry's bedsit and start looking after thequote unquote baby, or is it it
has a kind of reptilian face,a bit reminiscent of that spermaterzo on We're
a very ugly Yes, absolutely,yes, yes it is. Yes,
it's wrapped in swaddling bands up tothe neck and cries incessantly, refusing to

(17:52):
eat, all of which is toomuch for Mary, who goes back to
her parents, leaving Henry to carefor this quote unquote baby, which instantly
becomes ill and covered in spots andsaws. And maybe it's too much for
Henry as well, because he startsto dream or is it a dream?
It's not clear about a lady livinginside his radiator who coyly dances to fat
swaller organ music while treading on moreof those sperm and azoa, and who

(18:15):
sings a weird song about heaven,and he dreams or well, no,
is it a dream? What's abit real? Is it? Or is
it a dream? Don't know?About having an affair with this beautiful girl
across the hall, and about hishead being replaced by this baby's head,
and a child finding his head inthe road and selling it to make a
raise of tips for pencils. Butfortunately he snaps out of it. Unfortunately,

(18:37):
though, he sees the beautiful girlacross the hall with another much older
man, so he's very disappointed,and he starts cutting the bandages from the
baby's body with scissors, which,it turns out, as in all proper
nightmares, was the very worst thingto do. The baby has no skin,
and so the innerds starts oozing out, and so he's panicked and confused,
and he attacks the inner organs ofthe baby with the scissors and all

(18:59):
hell breaks the baby fluids leak outall over the place, light fitting spark,
and the baby's head grows massively insize. Eventually, the lights burnout
and the baby's head sort of becomesthat barren planet we saw earlier, and
Henry appears haloed by a bright cloudof erazor shavings. Than the planet bursts
open, and the man inside theplanet strains to pull those levers back into

(19:21):
their original positions, and the ladyand the radiator embraces Henry in a scene
of transcendence and bright light. Thenthere's black silence. Then there are the
credits, plus more fat swallow music. Again. That's it now, if
anybody can make any sense out ofthat I will be able to sup impressed.
I think even just bright white lightfollowed by dark that tells you something

(19:44):
I don't know what, very bright, very dark. You know, when
you sit in front of about ninetyminutes of it, it seems less less
not crazy, exactly, less immediatelybizarre in your face as that did,
totally incomprehensible. Least you can getsome sense of what's going on when you've
actually got time to watch it.But yeah, pretty difficult to interpret it

(20:06):
and maybe uninterpretable. We will getonto that anyway. Let's have some basic
things here to start our discussion ofit. It was directed by David Lynch,
produced by David Lynch, It waswritten by David Lynch. It was
edited by David Lynch, with songlyrics to that song in Heaven by David

(20:26):
Lynch, and the music was byDavid Lynch, but also Fats Waller and
Peter Ivers. But yeah, socertainly did a lot to this with only
joking. There are lots of otherpeople involved with this of course as well.
It seems like the soundscape was absolutelycentral to the whole of this,
and a guy called Alan Split sounddesigner, did a huge amount of work

(20:51):
on this. One thing I noticedwas that that relentless that what do you
call it, like not a hissingnoise, but that sort of Yeah,
it's actually exactly the same as thenoise in two thousand and one Space obviously
with the lunar module, and ofcourse that section of that film when they're
going to Jupiter is all about lonelinessand isolation, so it kind of evoked

(21:12):
it in me. They said ittook a year. I don't know if
that's a year of relentless work.Maybe it was just stretched over a period
of time. But again, youthink it's so simple, you know,
the industrial noises, but clearly itisn't. I don't know. So it's
just fantastic that took a year whatto collect all those noises and to collect
them all and yeah, the soundeffects, that's what I read. Anyway.

(21:34):
There's a very interesting sort of extraon the DVD that's brilliant because it's
exactly the same length as the filmand it's Lynch talking, so it's sort
of a commentary, but it's notbecause he doesn't address any of the themes.
He does talk very interestingly about themaking of the film, and there's
one bit I took from that.I thought that sort of opens it up
for me. The film is,he says, talking about the sound design

(21:56):
and talking about I think Philadelphia,that's where he grew up. He says,
you can be in a room andfeel the exterior. Oh I missed
that, which I just think isso brilliant. That seems key to me,
that you know, wherever you arein these tiny, small, enclosed
rooms, there is the noise andthe atmosphere of this big industrial machine around
you. Yeah, and I thinkthat's right, It's exactly right. It's

(22:18):
the nerd on the head that there'sclaustrophobia, but also there's this idea that
you're in this massive, great worldeven though you really don't see many people
at all in it, and he'sonly a few characters in the whole film.
I'd watch that same commentary and hesaid that, Yeah, the city
of Philadelphia was like very inspiration onhow he made this movie. Like he
said, like that city to himhad this character where, yeah, you

(22:38):
could feel the city inside, andyou could feel all the people who lived
around even though you don't see themover you know. He said it wasn't
about Philadelphia, but it was likethe city was just such a huge inspiration
on how he made this film.He said, yeah, that's right,
very interesting, weird because he didn'thave a good word to say about Philadelphia
except that it was hugely important forhim. But it's all negative. Isn't

(22:59):
it a dreadful place? It wasfull of crime and crime, And that's
where he was when he was atcollege, wasn't it at art college?
It seems bad to say that ifyou live in a poor area, it's
somehow romantic. But I suppose ifhe didn't think he was going to be
living there forever, you know,he was almost passing through. Perhaps I
don't know how long he lived therefor you could see a kind of poeticism

(23:21):
in it, couldn't you. Imean I think so. I guess.
The other thing he said was thatwhen he was painting, he would imagine
sounds to go with his paintings.I think that was That's interesting. Maybe
it wasn't I can't remember. Yeah. Yeah, some videos on the Criterion
DVD actually that are basically paintings,like their animations, but their paintings more
or less a move, and alot of them have like very weird sound

(23:42):
designs on them. A couple ofthem are live action, but yeah,
they are all like short films.I watched a few of them and just
very strange sounds in them and thenstrange visuals. But yeah, it's sort
of like what you're describing there,just paintings with weird sounds in them.
It's almost odd watching it again.I haven't seen it for quite a long

(24:02):
time, so I've rewatched it justbefore we're doing this, and it's almost
when people talk. It's almost asurprise that people talk, because so much
of it is in silence, andthe whole film could work in silence,
really, so when actually characters saythings to each other, usually completely bizarre
and inconsequential things, for me,it's a bit of a surprise. It's
sort of naturalistic thing when this filmthat's so unnatural. So much of it

(24:25):
it's done with looks and gestures andlong moments of yes. I mean.
The word I was thinking of watchingthis film is awkwardness. Absolutely, there's
an awkwardness to everybody, yes,to the central character, and it's a
kind of weird awkwardness that I havein some of my dreams. Almost where
you wake up you've been in aweird situation where you don't know how to
react, like a social faux pa, and people look at you and you're

(24:47):
not sure how to behave and youwake up, Thank goodness, it was
just a dream. There's this kindof weird awkwardness to everybody that and the
music. There's a dislocating feel toit, Isn't there when you watch it?
Yes, there is. You don'tknow what the cause of that awkwardness
is in the case of each characters. Going through my mind, there was
one particular scene where the girl acrossthe hall speaks to Henry and says,

(25:07):
oh, and I've had this phonecall and you know, Mary's invited you
to go to her parents withinner,and then he reacts by just sort of
staring and then goes, oh yeah, oh yeah, you know, like,
oh yeah, that's so strange.Yeah, very odd. I think
the other thing that grabs you ishow robotic the delivery is as well.
Particularly I think it's his girlfriend's mother. I think it's deliberately delivered in that

(25:33):
kind of jaded way. You're livingin this bleak surrounding. The spirit's got
out of them, but in away it's like when you're in a sort
of dream where you feel like you'recontrolling it. If you're waking up with
the wedding, you can go backperhaps half an hour and just drift in
and out of dreams. There's asense almost that they are delivering lines in
a play, that you're in aplay, and you know you're in a
play, and they're delivering lines ofa play, and you all feel quite

(25:56):
comfortable with that. So I feelthat's part the dream landscape really, that
they're saying these lines. Lucid dreamingmean yeah, Luid, Yeah, lucid
dreaming. Yeah. It's certainly clearthat dreaming is very, very important for
Lynch. I that certainly came outwhen I saw that documentary called Lynch Oz.
I wasn't hugely impressed by it,as Mark knows, but I did

(26:19):
get a few things from it,and the key thing that I thought was
it is clear that the Wonderful Wizardof Oz has a big influence upon Lynch's
I mean, he says that there'snot a day that goes by when I
don't think about the Wizard of Oz. That's a quote from him. You
know. Some of the themes thatare in that are clearly in his work
and the dream that, of courseDorothy has when there's that big storm,

(26:41):
you know, and then that wholedream transports it to Oz, either in
reality or in her dream. That'sthe open question, isn't it. In
the Wizard involved, that whole dreamingexperience seems obviously important for Lynch. You
know, there are some things broughtout in that documentary that I thought were
illuminating. One was the the presenceof wind sounds in the Wizard of Oz

(27:03):
where you've got that big storm,all these hissing noises and wind noises,
and an analogue to that, ofcourse, is all the steam that you
get and the smoke that's in araise ahead. And indeed, in other
productions curtains. We have the curtainsbehind which of course the Wizard of Oz
is, you know, the manbehind the curtain. Well, there are
curtains in this, aren't there Withthe lady in the radiator on that little

(27:25):
stage with curtains. Mulholland Drive isabsolutely full of curtains. So there are
these definite connections to the Wizard ofOurs. I think twas twins, Yeah,
Twin Peaks is full of curtains.Yeah, hasn't it also got red
little red shoes in as well.I think I can't remember in The Elephant
Man, when he's in the TravelingFrig Show he emerges from Brida curtain or
they pull the curtain to reveal ithe does. Yeah, that's right.

(27:48):
Yeah, it's funny. I've neverthought of curtains as being sinister, but
when I watched the documentary back,I suppose they are certainly in Lynch as
well, don't they, because youdon't know what behind them? No,
exactly. That's I think that's whatit is. It's the sort of the
shift, isn't it, between realityand unreal, the familiar and the unfamiliar,
the natural and the supernatural. Andthe curtain divides that, as does
the smoke, and as do thesounds that are the analog of curtains.

(28:12):
And I think all of that isthat transportation between one and the superimposing of
images over each other's. I otherthink he does a lot of which also
happens in the Wizard of Ours.You know, well, I wonder if
the film's getting more and more relevant, because if you think about the online
world and AI and everything. Someoneposted on Twitter. All they wrote was
it's getting harder and harder to knowwhat's real anymore, what's true? You

(28:34):
know? Yeah, you feel likemaybe this film will grow in relevance.
Puss people will increasingly come to thinkthat a raiserhead is real. I distinguish
it from reality. I wanted togive a special mention to Catherine Coulson because
she was the assistant to the directorand she seemed to do an awful lot
of work. She doesn't appear onscreen. She was recorded for some scene

(28:57):
or other, but it got cutout because Lynch cut scenes out, didn't
he After the first official showing hewasn't satisfied it was a bit too long
or something. He cut twenty minutesout and I think that went out on
the cutting room floor. But shedid all kinds of stuff to assist the
director. She's working as a waitressat the time. She was an actress,
but she was holding the camera,doing lighting, holding the mic,

(29:19):
taking photographs, doing her husband's haireach day because that was jack Nance who
was playing Henry. She was doinga load of stuff, and she was
also donating money from her waitress jobto help finance the film. So just
I think she did an awful lot. It has this definite sense of a
communal activity. Doesn't it be communalproject, student y kind of project?

(29:41):
Yeah, certainly looking at the extras, looking at the documentary, yes,
that comes over that they years ittook to make this thing, but they
all seem to have a really goodtime because I guess they were all working
as completely independent people. They hadnobody above them telling them, well,
Lynch should geared up this fantastic teamto do the show. So they was
like a sort of hippie it's abit late for hippies, suppose, you
know. And then they were almostpicked up for Can. Weren't they almost?

(30:04):
He told a story about that.Yeah, Yeah, I didn't make
it in the DVD. I certainlytalked about how like he was talking with
some guys who were going to bringit to Can. In the day he
brought it over, the guys hadalready left, like tours days before.
He said it played to an emptyroom, which appropriate for the film.
Yes, I think he might havebeen exaggerating on that. I think he
might have meant the people who mighthave given it the go ahead just weren't

(30:27):
there, and it turned out tobe the people who gave it the thumbs
down. Yeah, I mean,the whole atmosphere of the situation where they
were I think was wonderful. Youknow, they were in the place called
the stables, weren't they It wasnot just stables. It was garages and
greenhouse and maids quarters and all kindsof stuff, unused buildings that were on
the property of a place called GreystoneMansion which was used by the American Film

(30:52):
Institute at the time. They'd leasedit really cheaply, and they were doing
a course there. I think theycalled it the Center for Advanced Film Studies.
And Lynch had got a place onthat course, but he wasn't really
satisfied by that course, and thenhe said he wanted to do a raise
ahead, and they said okay.Then at least I think the dean of
the center sort of championed his cause, didn't he, and allowed him to

(31:15):
do. Itty liked the script,but he thought students should be if they've
talented, they should be allowed todo what they want to do. And
so they allowed them to get onwith this. And he sort of took
over this unused set of buildings onthe campus somewhere, and they've just left
them alone to get on with it. Sorry, he actually lived in the
building too, Like when they weren'tfilming and he was running it in the

(31:37):
garden, knew and they had anunderstanding. He actually slept in Henry's room.
I think. Wasn't that they thoughtit was going to be a short
film because the script was so short, didn't they? That's right? Well,
actually it's about an hour and ahalf. It's such an art form,
isn't it to have those silences,just to cut back to that?

(32:00):
Because when I was watching it,and I didn't get bored at all,
I think I've been a bit conditioned. The same with music as well.
It all seems terribly deliberate, doesn'tit. There are these long pauses,
but they don't seem self indulgent inthe way that some directors do. You
think they'll just get on with it. This all seems very he knows exactly
what he's doing, which he obviouslydoes. It'd be fascinating. Unfortunately can't

(32:21):
because I think the footage doesn't exist. But to see what the footage was
cut out and seeing what a differencethat makes, and when there are these
long silences, it he very oftenseems to end up that silence with something
that relieves the tension, often humorously, darkly humorously, with a comment that
you're not expecting or inappropriate answer toa question or something that was asked fifteen

(32:43):
seconds before or something like that.So what he's asked, what are you
doing now? I'm on a vocation? It's brilliant. What do you do?
What do you do? I'm onvacation vocation? And he's a printer,
isn't he? Is that relevant?I think so because so David Lynch
worked as a printer of engravings fora short while, so I think there's

(33:05):
another key to the autobiographical element ofit, right. And his hair goes
up like Lynch's as well, Sothere we go. There is a thing
about it though, with is itHenry? Is that the character of the
act? That's a character in them? Yeah, that's the character the idea
that other than his hair, whichis obviously quite memorable, he's supposed to
be very bland, like the clothesis wearing and everything. And I've seen

(33:27):
him describe either as an every manor a blank slate, and maybe he's
a bit both. Right, Likeyou said, he looks amused all the
time, and it's like he's justallowing things to happen to him. I've
got a bit of a theory aboutthat one. Anthony, Well, well,
I reckon might be wrong, butyou know, is there any significance
to the fact that he's called Henry? And I think it fits in with
what you just said, because thereis a character in The Wizard of Oz

(33:49):
called Uncle Henry. And there's aguy called Evan Schwartz who wrote a book
called Finding Oz, and in thatbook he says that Uncle Henry. So
this is in L. Frank Baum'schildren's stories, The Wonderful Wizard of Ours.
Okay, so Uncle Henry was basedon Frank Baum's father in law,
Henry Gage, who was here wego. This is a quote about him.

(34:13):
He was bossed around by his wife. A passive but hard working man
who looked stern and solemn and rarelyspoke. And I think there's some connection
there with the Henry. You know, it's pretty passive, maybe hard working
when he does work, certainly looksa bit so Solomon doesn't speak very much,
So it kind of makes sense.So I just wondered if you know
that that all hangs together there.And I wondered also if that connects to

(34:37):
Mary I don't know his partner becauseas aunt em in although it's spelled e
m, but you know when youhear it is aunt em. Just just
the thought that's that's a bit tenuous. But I responded, I mean,
Henry is a very ordinary name,isn't it. Henry. He's a very
sort of like old fashioned quiet.It's not not an I'm sorry to all

(35:00):
the Henry's out there, but it'snot. It's possibly not chosen for its
exciting connotation. Now the people aregetting offended. I'm sorry people called Henry
who chose their name Henry. It'sa royal name, isn't it. So
it's just an old royal name.Probably why he goes by Indiana Jones and

(35:22):
not Henry Jones. Yeah about HenrySkywalker. That wouldn't work. Henry Bikele
chose. I think Henry Potter wouldhave worked. Actually, actually that would
have. I think Harry isn't Henry? Isn't he? Should we say something

(35:46):
about the cast? Then? Gone? Gone? Mark yet No, I
was going to ask a question aboutthe comedy in it. I mean,
there's some comedy in it that Ijust wonder whether it's deliberate comedy or whether
it's just absurd stuff. There's abit where Mary is leaving Henry and she
goes to the bed and she's sortof yanking and yanking something underneath the bed.
You don't see what it is.It goes on for ages and then

(36:06):
finally falls out the suitcase. Whatwas that? You know? It is
funny. It's funny. It's aparallel to what happens in the rubber factory.
Do you know where that guy keepson pressing the bell to get the
attention of his boss. Totally gratuitous. Yeah, there's no point for that
at all. It must be funny. He comes back, doesn't he He's

(36:28):
not allowed into the room with hisboss. He comes back and he presses
something gives himself an electric shock orsomething at the end of the scene.
Yes, I know, think aboutthe humor here. I've said this sort
of thing on the podcast before manytimes. But I know a lot of
people do think of humor as beingnot art, and humor as being because
it's not serious, therefore it's notgood in the same way that art is,

(36:50):
you know, and I totally disagreewith that. I think that comedy
is an art form in its ownright. I think that's true in here
if you end up laughing within thissort of horrific film in many ways,
you know, if you end uplaughing at it, that's completely acceptable,
and if that's what the artist intends, then it's worked. Yeah, I
mean, going back to two thousandand one quickly, there's only one joke

(37:14):
in the whole film, and it'sbrilliant. You know, the toilet joke
is just great. So oh yeah, I think anyway, so again,
Kobi wrote out all those instructions.Yeah, it's a toilet zero gravity,
and yeah, he's sort pondering,hmm, how do I do this?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it'sa very good joke. I was just

(37:35):
thinking of my favorite composer, gilgyLigerty wrote this piece for orchestra with the
three vocal soloists and it's called Aventureand they sing but they don't sing any
words. They just sing noises allthe time, what sort of thing,
And you can't help but laugh,and I know he did it, and
the audience is trying not to laugh, and that makes it even funnier,

(37:57):
and the whole thing was intended thatway, and it's not rubbish. You
can tell that. It's very carefullycrafted, but it's funny, So I
know, I totally think this isacceptable art. You know, essentially humor
it's a sign of intelligence, right, absolutely, you know, absolutely,
So what does that say about alack of a sense of humor? Deep?
I think we all know. Ithink we all know what it says.

(38:20):
I think, so, you know, I've just got a few things
that may have influenced this film,and then things that it did influence.
And I'm sure it's influenced a lotof things. But the two that I
read about were Metamorphosis, the Kafka, Oh yeah, wakes up, He's
a cockroach. And then there's oneI hadn't heard of, a story by
Goggle called The Nose. This isa one line summary the story of a

(38:43):
Saint Petersburg official whose nose develops alife of its own and attains a higher
rank than him. Which, right, I've got a couple of my own.
I don't know if you've ever seenany films I loved or absolutely lar
The only one I've actually ever seenis in Sheann and Alou, which is
a short film Andalucian. I thinkthe similarities that he's got these very The

(39:07):
famous one is the razor blade inthe eye. Yes, it's got real
nonsensical stuff, but these really evocativeimages. But the other one that really
hit me was have you seen theTrial the Orson Welles film. Oh,
that's a great movie. I lovethat one. This is similarity because it's

(39:27):
very very idea, it's very echoey, and there's a connection because that's based
on a Kafka novel. And it'sa guy who waits accused of a crime
and he's never told he's never toldwhat the crime is, but he suddenly
starts to feel guilty or something,and it's Anthony Well. He gets gas
lit by the court system basically,and I'm like, yes, we go

(39:51):
through all this bureaucratic nonsense typical ofKafka, and he, you know,
to try to prove his innocent,he goes and meets with an attorney,
and there's in that story there's quitea few nonsensical things. There's like three
guys whipping somebody in a closet andthen they're He goes and meets with a
lawyer and the lawyer is like comicallyan apt or something or but he comes

(40:12):
off as though he's not and he'sgiving him advice, but it's not practical
in any way, is it.Yeah? I thought was once. It
was a perfect adaptation of that novel, very very strange and surreal. Yeah,
I'm glad you brought it up becauseit does remind me of this movie
quite a bit. Yeah. Imean it's black and white. You see
you see clerks going through these officeswhere everybody's just typing away, but you

(40:36):
just get this relentless typing noise.But they're all in perfectly symmetrical desks,
and it's got that sterility, youknow, it's got. It's got lots
of echo. So I think ifpeople like The Raise Ahead, I think
they should maybe seek out that film. I share your recommendation for sure,
Anthony. I did wonder whether BunwellStuff, Large Door or movies by Johan

(40:58):
Cocteau had any kind of influence uponthen, you know that sort of thing.
But there was a quote somewhere Ican't reference it, but he's something
like, before he did a RaiseAhead, he didn't know about those movies,
So I don't know that's interesting.I suppose he had this influence of
some real art and abstract expressionism anyway, So maybe that's how those films would
be if you just did them anyway. You know, a couple of Kubrick

(41:20):
things. I mean, Kubrick ismy favorite director two thousand and one.
I think a lot of directors havesaid it gave you permission to have long
stretches without dialogue in a film thatwas going to go into the mainstream.
But then conversely, Kubrick apparently notsure if I believe this, but Kubrick
apparently said that The Raizorhead was hisfavorite film of all time, maybe just
after he'd seen it or something,and he played it for the cast and

(41:44):
crew of The Shining to get themin the mood all this disturbing stuff.
That's a cool quote. Wow.Interesting. And the only other one was
Barton think that Coen Brothers really reallygood film. I think they apparently took
a lot from this, So youknow, it's what the thing isn't it.
You take bits from other people andthen you influence future generations. Yeah,
it's great. I've got a copyof that, but I've never seen

(42:06):
it, so I'll look at thatwith interest now. Yeah, it's very
good. Yeah, it's about aguy you try to write a novel and
he's got writer's blocking reference once again. See it all connects. Yeah,
I wanted to. I'm talking aboutinfluences ahead, no, no, no,
go ahead, Frank. There's anotherfilm I saw that's kind of since
we're talking surreal, dreamlike movies,I don't know if it was influenced by

(42:28):
this movie or not, but there'sa French film called The City of Lost
Children by and Yeah Jean Pierre's youknow and yeah, yes, yes,
the same guy did Amali and ChokoLot. I think it was. Yeah,
a lot of weird Yeah, Delicatessen, Yep, that's the one.
Yeah, Yeah, that movie isvery surreal and has a lot of weird
dream like stuff like this, anda lot of silences. I would wonder

(42:52):
if there's some inspiration for that moviehere too. Did anyone calibrate their televisions?
No? On the DVD I did. Did you make any difference?
Well, I didn't watch it whenit wasn't calibrated, I don't know.
Essentially, it's turning the brightness waydown and the contrast way down. And
I'm sure that was written by him. There's instructions about how television sector always

(43:15):
set up too high, the contrasttoo high, because they're counteracting the lights
in the showroom. You've got toturn it right down, et cetera.
So it goes through. It's quitea part of it. It's quite amusing
in its own way because you think, well, this is probably David Lynch
doing this, and you're sort offollowing these instructions. Can I ask you
then in the question, Yeah,Lynch said was his most spiritual film,

(43:35):
Right, what does that mean?Well, now what does that mean?
That's right? Well, that lookswell. That leads us on to what
does any of this mean? Imean, I know you can go to
all kinds of blogs all over theinternet and find different interpretations of this.
Yeah, Lynch himself refuses to saywhat it's about. It clearly has its
own interpretation because he says that nobodyelse's interpretation is his interpretation. So what

(44:00):
do you reckon? Have you gotany ideas that might, in your view,
get close to what's inside his head? Well? I think in terms
of spiritual, I think he probablymeant pure. Perhaps it was his essence
in some way. I mean,there was a one line summary of the
film, Horrific Tale of Unplanned Parenthood. Yes, another man who's left to

(44:20):
care for his grossly deformed child ina desolate industrial landscape. And I think
Lynch, doesn't it come from whenhe became a father. I mean,
obviously I'm not saying it was asgrossome as this. I'm not saying that.
But I think his daughter was bornwith club feet. Someone mentioned fear
of fatherhood. I mean, thisis all quite speculative's yeah, I had
seen that interpretation somewhere. I thinkthat's got a lot going for it,

(44:44):
and I was a bit skeptical ofit until I found a particular quote by
his daughter, Jennifer. So thisis from an article in The Independent in
two thousand and nine. So whoever'swriting this wrote, let me just quote
this. Jennifer Lynch, an unplannedchild was born with club feet. As
an infant, she was placed ina cast from the waist down. And

(45:05):
I thought, oh, that's alittle bit like the child in this thing,
unable to crawl. Unable to crawl, she would pull herself along,
encumbered by a metal bar between herankles. She eventually underwent surgery, and
of course, in the film HenryCuts Open the Baby, she underwent a
surgery at four and wore orthopedic shoesuntil she was twelve, and then she
recalls making her mother Peggy a birthdaypresent by piling mud onto the dining room

(45:29):
table, and of course there arethese piles of mud on the chest of
drawers and on the bedside cabinet,very strangely with a dead tree stuck in
it. And then this is anactual quote here from Jennifer. She says,
we packed this is the mud.We packed it tightly and dug little
holes and made little clay figures withlong arms, and we stuck them in
the openings. And that thing stayedthere for years. We hat somewhere else.

(45:52):
My mom came home and she waslike, I love it, and
that was normal to me. Itnever occurred to me that people weren't doing
this for each other. You know, there's so many little insights there,
and I think it's clear that thereis an autobiographical element to that. Yeah.
I found the stuff with the forcalling it a baby. I found
that really poignant. I found thatquite tear jerking just watching it there wailing,

(46:15):
And you know, that was themost emotional part for me. I
didn't really find the rest of itparticularly emotional. Didn't you find it also
off putting that it was obviously nota human baby. Yeah, yeah,
it was a reptilian. Why isit an alien? Yeah, this is
only this is only one interpretation.But the interpretation of alien is something that

(46:37):
doesn't seem part of you. Somaybe I think the bits where the mother
couldn't stand the crying, I don'tknow. I have to tread carefully because
I've never had children. I know, I think all three of you have,
So I don't know. You justsense in the character. Perhaps it's
a bit of resentment. I don'tknow. Oh, the quest for sleep

(46:59):
when you got to say yes,goes above and beyond everything. They drives
you. Yeah, well something soI can relate slightly. It's an odd
film in the because I kind ofit seems to me that's on the surface
is kind of an obvious thing forresponsibility, the fear of responsibility of looking

(47:19):
after a child on your own,especially an unwanted one. But it's odd.
It seems odd to me, Imean deliberate. I guess. There's
no sense that she was ever pregnant. There's no sense that you see her
in the hospital. There's no senseof the baby coming back. It's just
there. It's mentioned sort of inpassing, and then and then the mother
comes on to him. I've forgottenthat it starts kissing him. It's very

(47:40):
odd. And then the next bitthat, oh, there's the baby,
sort of which is again sort ofdream logic. You know, you think
of something and it's it's happening.It's happened, you know, you just
go go with it. It isvery dream like in that sense. Yeah.
She asks him, you know,have you had sexual relations with Mary,
And because he doesn't want to answerno, then you know, revealed

(48:00):
that Mary has had this baby,this thing which it doesn't seem clear that
it is a baby. And thenI noticed that Henry says, oh,
no, but it's too soon,you know, as if it couldn't possibly
have disappeared. It's just appeared outof no where exactly. He actually says
that it was too soon or somethinglike that, and that's what makes it
all the more dream like. Youknow, these things happened too quickly.
And then he tries to impose somelogic on it, and then it snaps

(48:21):
back and defies it. You know, it's just like, hey, it's
too soon to have a baby,and then suddenly the baby's there anyway.
Yeah, that's the message to theaudience to say, not to make sense
of it. Yeah, I havegot another reading of it well before.
We won't come to that. It'sjust it's just that I noticed that his
first wife, Peggy, said thatthey were both reluctant parents. He was

(48:45):
loving, but definitely reluctant. Thisis the quote that Lynch definitely was a
reluctant father, but a very lovingone. Hey, I was pregnant when
we got married. We were bothreluctant, you know, So there's yeah.
I mean in his case, youknow, there's going to be this
wanting to get on with the art, and yet you've got the pressures here
of parenthood and the pressures of havinga disabled child as well. So it

(49:06):
kind of makes sense really, Andyou might dream or a disturbing dream like
that under such circumstances, might you. I think the alien thing, I
think is just an extension of somethingthat he might have been feeling. That's
what you're doing, isn't it.He takes something that's authentic and maybe just
exaggerate it or n Yeah, foreffect, that's what it's done. And
I don't know about you, chaps, but you do sometimes dream some things

(49:29):
that there's no way you would dothat in real life or even want to
do that in real life. Butsome of your unconscious is coming up and
saying, look, do this andwhat no, no, what? What?
What? You know? There's nothingto do with me as a as
a rational person here. But yeah, so I can imagine that happening in
a dream like sense. And I'veread some sort of analysis saying it's not
my reading, but he deliberately killsthe baby at the end. I didn't.

(49:49):
I don't see that. I seehim as essentially being inquisitive what's going
on? I've got to uncover what'sgoing on? And very carefully I thought
cutting what he thinks is the swaddling, which in a weird way is somehow
connected to the baby, And rightat the end with the scissors, I
suppose, yes, there's nothing elseto do. Then is the child no
exactly what you know, out ofits misery beyond care? Then isn't it

(50:13):
hell? But initially he could havejust plunged those are straight in without bothering
to cut open. So yeah,with you, do you want to hear
my different reading of the film?Do have you got one? Yeah?
It is plausible Oh, of course. Has anybody's seen The Bed Sitting Room,
which is this terrible post apocalyptic nineteensixty nine comedy directed by Richard Leicester.

(50:35):
It's got Arthur Lowe, Roy Kinnear, Spike Milligan, Peter Cook,
et cetera. No, I've heardof that, and I like Richard Leicester.
Yeah, basically it's a post nuclearwar setup. And I think this
is only because he's got a photographon the wall of a nuclear bomb,
a nuclear explosion. Yes, youcould read this as some kind of weird
post apocalyptic world in which people arejust getting on with things, even though

(51:00):
the baby is dying of radiation isa mutant. The person who's pulling the
levers at the beginning of the film, it's all sort of it's got stuff
on his face. It looks likeradiation. It's scars, scars all over
his face, but with a tree, you know, radiation causing the trees
to So they're just trying to geton with life in this post apocalyptic nightmare

(51:20):
world. That's a possible reading itis. It's got something going for it.
Why is there a photograph of anuclear explosion on what there's no other
pictures? Quite why exactly, yes, And why is the environment around so
desolate and so few people around?Yeah? Yeah, people becoming explicably ill.
It's Philadelphia. Yeah, what's onthe radiator lady's face as well as

(51:46):
that supposed to? I don't knowwhat those weird cheeks that she's got,
no idea. It's obviously a deformitything that he carried. Yeah, it's
very Cronenberg, isn't it, Becausehe's really into deformity and body horror.
And this is really at the heartof the film to me, is that

(52:07):
body horror of being scared of yourown something that's come out of your own
loins, essentially, and being scaredof it, not knowing what to do.
And there's a bit where he's okay, it's a weird bit where he
puts his thermometer in the baby's mouthand pulls it out. It said,
you've got six These are the numberson it, six eight and then one
hundred. It seems to jump fromsix eight and then one hundred, and
the line is on the hundred,and then he turns back to it,

(52:30):
and of course it's suddenly got allthese horrible postures. He says, oh,
oh, you are sick. Yes, again a dream jumper, absolutely
jump in just narrative that you getin dreams, absolutely cuts out the time
of reality there and suddenly moves tothe next thing. Yeah, exactly right,
Yeah, absolutely, It's one ofmy favorite scenes that actually because it's

(52:51):
hilarious, absolutely hilarious. It's deliveryis funny, it's hilarious. So he
delires that horrible information so hilariously.Yeah. I'm not just sick, I'm
as sick as I possibly could beinstantly. Yeah, because that's why you
need to be in the narrative ofthe dream. You know, there's no

(53:12):
point, you know where you needto be. Bob, You're right,
you're there, Yes, you know. Promingburg some of his early films from
Black and White and none of theStudent films are full of disturbing imagery,
and obviously all the most of hisother films are full of disturbing imagery.
So whether he's influenced by Lynch orI guess they were making films about the
same time, weren't they. Well, I just remembered in the in the
Fly, she has a dream whereshe gives birth to kind of Grubb.

(53:36):
Yeah, yeah, forgotten about that. Yeah, And of course I'm thinking
there's no scene of giving birth orpregnancy, but there's that awful scene of
where he goes to his girlfriend's housewith the parents and they presented him with
this was it? They called itStranger's damn chicken man made? Oh yeah,
the man laid chicken. That's right, little quail. Aren't they the
size of quail? And he hasto cut one and then of course it

(53:59):
all just bubbles up and stuff.Yeah, yeah, very strange. We'll
come to that in just a second, because I want to talk about some
of the favorite scenes and things.I just want with one more interpretation that
I Initially I thought, oh,this could be great, you know,
I think this could be the keyto it, And as I read it,
I wasn't convinced. It was theidea of this being a spiritual film
in the sense of a gnostic film, So the idea that the world is

(54:22):
all sort of irredeemably bad and theonly way of getting out from the world
is to realize you're sort of innerlight, you know, that kind of
thing, and I just didn't workfor me. The main reason is because
this person who wrote this article wedropped it in the show notes, said
that the man in the planet waslike the demiurge, the sort of evil

(54:44):
lower god who created the physical world. And then the lady in the radiator
presents the light that comes from thetop god, you know, the sort
of thing. But the idea thatthe man in the planet is like this
evil demiurge, I thought, hedoesn't strike me as being particularly powerful,
like a creator at all. It'salmost like he's I mean, when he
pulls the levers, he sort oftwitches into action, like something's controlling him,

(55:05):
if he's pulling the levers of faterather than be a creator, I
thought, I read him more likeFate dishing out these unfortunate events to poor
old Henry who's reacting psychologically to it. But so I just didn't quite go
for that theory. It's more psychological, isn't it, than than metaphysical?
I think. Hmm. I justsaid a quick question. What about the
child growing? What's it all about? Is that a growing problem? This

(55:30):
is where it gets a bit,isn't it's a problem that's growing and growing
or something. At the very end, Yeah, at the very end,
I mean, that's weird, andit's like the head is this vast quite
badly made head that you only seefor a few seconds, don't you sort
of flash frames flashing? And isit a happy ending? Is it a

(55:51):
happy ending or an unhappy ending?Hopeful? While it depends on which theory
you go with, doesn't probably,Henry, I think it's deliberately unanalyzable,
isn't it. Yeah, I thinkfear may be just at the heart of
the whole thing. Pereps you getsumming up in one word, perhaps it's
all about fear. I think that'swhat I got from it. Maybe coming

(56:13):
to terms of it, like Iget this sense at the end of the
movie that like whatever is causing thefear or the kind of heaviness of the
film, Like, you know,I won't say it's a happy ending,
but I feel like it's a relief. You know. It's like, oh
it's I can breathe, you know. I was like, I feel better
after when it's ending, you know, not that I love the movie,
but like it's just you feel likeI breathe a sigh of relief when it

(56:36):
finishes, you know. Yeah,I get the feeling. It goes either
way. You get white lights,don't you as if it's like in heaven
like the song says in heaven andthen instantly it cuts to black. So
you could say, well, thisis either this has been relieved or oh,
it's just as dark and realistic asI thought it was to start with.
I don't know. I don't thinkthere's any real resolute I didn't feel
any resolution to it. Really,no, not really thinks as a viewer,

(57:00):
although I enjoyed it, you dofeel a bit relieved to get out
of this bleak world? Yeah,yeah, yeah, the way you look
at the world if you watch toomuch of this. Well, I think
that's one of the things I getfrom this film is it tells me,
you know, life isn't as badas that. I mean, maybe it's
for some people, which which istragic, but you know, I complained
about my own life. Sometimes Ithink look at a film like this and

(57:21):
think, oh, I actually thinkI've got things really good compared with that.
You know, well, I thinkthat in terms of interpretation, you
know, there are some key thingsthat we can pin down. I think
a lot of the things that wehave said are obvious, particularly the autobiographical
things. They must apply surely,But in terms of an overall interpretation,
I get the impression that he wantsus to have our own overall interpretations,

(57:44):
and there isn't a right answer.And I get that from a quote at
the end of that eighty five minuteinterview from the DVD, which you say,
Mark is co extensive with the film. Yeah, he spends the whole
time deliberately avoiding what it's about.And then right at the end this is
obviously deliberately crafted because the last sentence, I believe he says it is a

(58:05):
personal film and no reviewer or criticor viewer has ever given an interpretation that
is my interpretation since the you know, twenty five years or so, but
it's been out. And I thoughtthat's actually cleverly worded, because he could
have said, no one has everworked out to my interpretation. He could
have said no one has ever comeclose to my interpretation, but he said,

(58:28):
no one has ever given an interpretationthat is my interpretation. And maybe
that's the point, you know,I mean to say that we've each got
our own interpretations, and by definition, nobody can ever give my interpretation because
it is my interpretation, just asyours is yours. I reckon that's the
key to what he means with it. Well, there's two things that artists
always say when I say artists couldbe filmmakers musicians. Number One, once

(58:52):
it's out in public, anyone's interpretationis as well as anyone else, since
you know, it belongs to thepublic. If you like the other thing,
I think we're presuming that he knowswhat it's about. Maybe he doesn't.
I mean, maybe he just Well, if you think about the creative
brain, sometimes maybe it runs awaywith you. He probably does have an
interpretation. I'm just saying what hesays he has. Yeah, I suppose

(59:13):
he says he has, But I'mjust saying that sometimes I think the artist
may not actually know what things areabout, but they put it out there
anyway. But you're right, inthis case, he has said yeah,
yeah, I agree that he probablydoesn't have an answer to any question about
every detail inside it, especially ifit's very dreamlike in conception. Perhaps his
interpretation is he doesn't have an interpretation. I'm sure he's playing with us.

(59:35):
But you yeah, it seems likea bit of a trickster to me in
a kind of sly way. Youknow. Yes, it was with a
humor and everything. Yeah, yeah, good. Can I just ask you
about the sound effects. How didit make you feel? And how do
you think they made them? Whatwas going on? Like? When can
I just look at my notes fora second. Well, while you find
that, I will say that whileI was watching it again, we had

(59:58):
a box of vegetable that have beendelivered and inside it there was a mouse
eating, chomping away at the vegetles, and I didn't know what that sound
was. I was looking at thescreen. I put this box down on
the table. I was looking atthe screen. I could hear this,
and at that moment in the film, I thought, what a strange noise
to have. But that works,doesn't it? And then I realized,

(01:00:20):
Hey, just a minute, thatnoise is coming from inside the room.
And then I found it was amouse. So there you go. How
strange was that? She sounds somethingto have a raizorhead? Yes, what
do you do with the mouse?I rescued it and put it outside?
Good. Yes, I still can'tfind it. Does someone like rubbed their
cheek or something like that? Therewas a really bizarre noise. Can't find

(01:00:42):
it? Oh yeah, that wasactually rubbed their eye? Oh yes,
yes, it's horrible, disturbing noiseand that's the kid as well. Very
disturbing. Yeah, on my rewatch, I found it much more disturbing that
I remember when I first saw it. First saw it, I was almost
chuckling away at it, think youknow, what a strange film is this?

(01:01:06):
And then forty years later or so, I think, oh gosh,
actually it's quite disturbing on a quitea deep level. You feel like you
want to shake it off after itand go off and do something jolly well.
I think this became a kind ofquote midnight movie, didn't it.
Yeah, cinema, and I thinkthat would make a huge difference. I
think if you watch this in thelight on midday or something, you might
find it funny. But then ifyou watch the same thing at midnight.

(01:01:29):
I remember watching a film at Glastonbury. I watched Blair Witch Project at one
o'clock in the morning in the cinemaoutside at Glastonbury and it was really disturbing.
Yeah, that makes a difference definitely. Actually, Okay, what about
favorite scenes? Has anybody got afavorite scene? Yeah? I can't really
think of everything. I think ofit just more as just the overall experience.

(01:01:51):
Yeah, let me start it offthen with the well basically the scenes,
the collection of scenes where he goesto visit Mary's mom and dad.
I just love that. It's fantastic. There's just so many aspects of that.
It's so uncomfortable. Everybody's so unfriendly. Well, I suppose mister X's
is overly friendly. Missus X isnot friendly at all. All those silences,
the weird subtling sounds of these puppiesdon't know what it is to start

(01:02:15):
with, do you? And youeventually sourbed see them there in the corner,
and then that weird conversation about whatdo you do? And I'm on
vacation and all that, and theweird fits that people have for no apparent
reason. It's all so odd.And then you get this business, as
you say, with the chicken fordinner, which are too small to carve,
but Bill says, you know,mister X says, why don't you

(01:02:36):
carve it? And he agrees tocarve it, and then they're still alive,
and that the blood comes out,and that weird scene in the kitchen
with the grandma character. Oh yeah, she's obviously a senile, really far
gone, and yet missus X givesher a bowl of food to mix.
She's totally in capable of doing itherself, so she holds her hands,
gives her the spoons and does itfor her. She's totally unaware of this,

(01:02:59):
and then she likes us gre outfor her afterwards. I mean,
that's just so odd. But thatwhole collection of scenes there I thought was
hilarious and odd at the same time. Lovely just was staring at the screen,
So how does this make any sense? What's going on? What's going
on? And then laughing at thesame time. Yeah, I think,
I think, and I sort ofagree with that in in a sense that
it's such a homogeneous unit and it'skind of hard to pick out a favorite

(01:03:21):
scene. But I suppose if therewas a scene in there that for me
encapsulated the film, it would beon that little sort of strange theater set
behind the radiator where he's going andstanding almost behind a witness box or something.
Yes, he's putting his hands onthe bars, and then his head
pops up, a thing shoots outfrom his neck. It's the baby,

(01:03:42):
isn't it. Then the little babysort of rolls on the floor. Then
the camera sort of then you geta shot of all the components of the
woman there, the little strange thingsshe stepped on the floor, you know,
that checkerboard floor, the curtains,and him standing there, and it's
just whoa this is? It's justwhat human being could put all these images
together in the same shot. Buthim, salvad Or Darley is the answer

(01:04:05):
to that. That's what it is. I mean, it was like a
tableau, wasn't it, of adarly painting man point. I thought that
was beautiful. I love that.Yeah. If you looked at that without
knowing the film, you would thinkthese things were totally disconnected. But with
the narrative of the film, itkind of makes sense, but doesn't make
sense, you know why they're allthere? Yeah? That you know that
mound that's next to the bed onthe psie cabinet's got the twig sticking out

(01:04:29):
that appears in that scene. Doesn'tit comes on on wheels? Yes,
it comes onto stage on wheels.Yeah. Especially a big favorite film school,
surely it must be. You couldspend manse analyzing it, couldn't you.
Yeah, you think I think youcould, and then everybody would say
everybody's interpretation is correct. Well towhen with it, I don't know what
I can learn from it except whatI said before, just as a cathartic

(01:04:54):
thing, that life isn't as badas that. I always used to be
very much a acted to surreal thingswhen I thought that the world was totally
incoherent and I had no faith.But although I'm still attracted to surreal things,
I don't see that in the sameway. I don't see it as
realistic and negative as I did before. And I don't know where where Lynch

(01:05:15):
is coming from in that respect.He doesn't strike me as realistic. He's
very interested in TM. He's beeninto TM for very, very many years.
He's got a foundation where he wantsto help people, you know,
So I get the impression it's notcoming from that all the universe is completely
irrational sort of angle. It's ajob to know what the message of it

(01:05:35):
is. Really. If there isa message, I think that a viewer
can just take from it. Ithink it is a universal message. But
just going back to dreams, Imean, I often wake up from dreams,
pretty vivid ones. This sounds reallycorny, but I get a kind
of a life lesson from them sometimesand often I've had very dark dreams and

(01:05:55):
as soon as I wake up forthem before I've had any chance to think,
I almost a message for my subconscioussaying, be happy, you know,
realize how lucky you are, youknow, and I think just to
get political for set, if youlook at what's happening in Gaza, I
mean, just be happy you're notthere. And maybe it's just you know,
I think we should always try andget something positive from anything, you

(01:06:18):
know, because the world's but it'sgratitude. That's interesting because I've heard that
as a justification for horror. Filmmakerstend to say that the reason we love
horror is because it's sort of makingoh, thank goodness, we don't have
to go through that. Thank goodness, there isn't a monster outside. It's
cathartic. It makes you value yourlife. And in a way this is

(01:06:38):
is it a horror film? Imean you could read it as that could
do you know, there's elements soin that sense that sort of makes sense
that you've watched this and go,oh gosh, and probably lynch himself.
Thank goodness, my life didn't turnout like that, or you know,
it could have done. And thereare elements in it, as you say,
that are autobiographical. I don't reallysee any link between him and the

(01:06:59):
central character to any in terms oftheir personality. But you know, you
could go down that one route,which is the raisorhead route, and I
think it's just to sort of say, well, that's not your life,
so be happy as you say.That's quite a thing, really, yeah,
yes, no, I think gratitudeis so important, you know.
I think that's right. You know, why not take something life affirming from

(01:07:19):
it? You know, yes,very true, Frank, unfair to give
you the last word on this one. We've used up all the ideas.
Do you have anything anything to addor not? Really? No, I
mean I can't really think of afavorite scene or anything, you know.
I like marks one where his headpops off and the baby's underneath. But

(01:07:43):
if I had to pick any specificpart, I would say because it seems
the most out of place to therest of the film is the machine that's
making the erasers and you know,the pencils and stuff. I'm not really
understanding how that fits into the restof the story. Yeah, I mean,
I don't know. That part tome stands out the most. It's
odd that Lynch himself says he doesn'tknow where he got the title from or

(01:08:06):
the idea from. Yeah, butobviously that is part of the idea,
isn't it that the head and theeraser go together there? But yeah,
where he got it from? Heclaims not to remember. Yeah. I
mean one interpretation that I think istoo on the nose is something about erasing
the responsibility. But I don't know. It might be one of those things
where it just came to him andhe went through it. We've all had

(01:08:28):
moments where we had dreams where youwake up. I would never have thought
of that in a million years conscious, but dreaming you put all these bits
together. It's true. I wellsecond that. Yeah. I had a
dream once where I was like atthe cafe inside of a bookstore, and
there was some black lady there nearbyat a table, like standing doing something,
and then she looks up at meand tells me, you know,

(01:08:50):
you need more hydrogen in your day. I'm like, what the heck is
that even mean? What does thatmean? You know? And it's like
just totally not That's something I wouldhave ever thought of in waking life.
Ever, And it's highly possible thata lot of these ideas came from Lynch's
own dreams, and those are partof that interpretation that he's not going to

(01:09:11):
tell anybody else because they're deeply personalto him. And enough. Wow,
Well, thank you very much gentlemenfor coming to discuss this extremely odd film.
As you said, Anthony, Ithink earlier on we've gone talking about
this forever. We've said a lot, and I think we've made as much
sense of it as as we can. I still can't directly connect it to

(01:09:32):
everything else at TMR. As Isaid before, maybe the dystopian aspect of
it, maybe just my own interestin the surreal It's a film that I
wanted to talk about, and Iknow it appealed to each of you.
So thanks very much for coming onand having this conversation. It's been like
the film's mind expanding this conversation.Oh yeah, the ideal Christmas movie.

(01:09:59):
That's right. Yes, well,I do recommend people to go and look
at it. You've got a copy, but not don't watch it late at
night. What's you doing the dayas a comedy and watch your later night
as R film, watch it onChristmas morning? How about that? Well,
thanks very much, chat for talkingabout this very old film. Thank
you very much enjoyed it. Welcomeyou next time. Thank you, tak

(01:10:20):
Care. Show notes for this programcan be found at the Mind Renewed theMIND
at reneude dot com. Podcast musicby the brilliant Anthony Rachekoff, attribution non
commercial share like four point zero International. You have been listening to me Julian
Charles and my guests Frank Johnson,Anthony Ratuno and Mark Campbell, and I
very much look forward to speaking toyou again in the near future.