June 13, 2024 • 53 mins
"I think, as we are forced from the centre—but, even better, as we relinquish the centre, and let go of power among ourselves and in culture, and become more dependent on God—that our spiritual power will, in a sense, return."—Dr Mark Glanville We welcome to the programme Dr Mark Glanville, Associate Professor of Pastoral Theology at Regent College, Vancouver, for a conversation—in words and music—on his recently published book, Improvising Church : Scripture as the Source of Harmony, Rhythm, and Soul (InterVarsity Press, Academic, 2024). "The post-Christian cultural turn is creating the conditions for a crisis of confidence in the church and in pastoral ministry. While such changes can be disruptive and disconcerting, our new cultural reality makes the present moment a uniquely exciting time to reimagine churches that bear witness to Christ. How do we move beyond cookie-cutter approaches (which may have worked in the past) to building the creative, compassionate, and incarnational churches we long for? Biblical scholar and accomplished jazz pianist Mark Glanville plays with a metaphor of improvisation to chart twelve themes as the key "notes" on which Christian communities play as they bear witness to God in the world today. Building on these two dynamic traditions—jazz music and Christian community—Improvising Church unfolds a biblical, practical, and inventive vision for churches seeking to receive and extend the healing of Christ."—(IVPress.com) [For show notes please visit https://themindrenewed.com]
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
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(00:10):
Hello everybody. Julian Charles here oftheMIND Reneude dot com. Coming to you
as usual from the depths of theLancashire countryside here in the UK, and
today after quite a break because ofproblems I've been having at the website,
which many of you know about,I am now at long last, very
pleased to welcome to the program doctorMark Glanville, who is Associate Professor of
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Pastoral Theology at Regent College, Vancouverand an Old Testament scholar who earned his
PhD from the University of Bristol herein the UK and is the author of
numerous articles and books. Previously,he ministered in missional urban communities in both
Canada and Australia and was a professorof congregational theology at the Missional Training Center
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in Phoenix, and added to allthat if that wasn't enough, he is
also a professional jazz pianist, whichskill set much keeps alive in connection with
his teaching and ministry, which we'llhear about in just a moment. I'm
glad to say Dr Grahamville, thankyou very much indeed for joining us on
the program. Thanks so much forhaving me, Julia. Good to know
you. Good to know your people. Well, it's a huge pleasure to
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be speaking with you very much.Enjoyed your book and been looking forward to
this conversation very much. Thanks foragreeing to come on now. Actually,
before we get going with the conversation, I've got a little quote here from
you which I'm eager to ask youabout. So this is from your faculty
page at Regent College. Quote.Mark is an aussy. He likes to
express his masculinity by snapping a crocodile'sneck with two fingers. So I'm wondering
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should I be afraid of you.I've never actually caounded a crocodile, you
know, in honesty, you know, but if I did, if I
did, you know, I feelconfident. So I get to have a
shot. Are you a Paul Hoganfan? By any chance? That was
epic? Hey? When I wasa kid, crocodile Doe came out,
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and then I came to Canada attwenty eleven, you know, while and
truly as an adult with kids,and the one thing everyone knew at the
time anyway about Australia with crocodile Dundee. And so people would say to me,
call that a knife this is aknife. I hadn't seen the movie
for twenty five years, you know, So if I ever do in Cana
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a crocodile, there's the inspiration absolutelyas well. All the best if you
do, I wish you all that, all right. So I want to
have this conversation with you because listenerswill know I've been running a series for
the last couple of years called FollowingChrist in the New Old Normal, and
I've been exploring with various guests howwe might best do church or be church
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in the post COVID world. Sowe've been asking ourselves what have we learned
in the last few years about theworld and perhaps more importantly, about ourselves.
And in so far as we recognizethat there has to be a change
in the church, how can wepresent of what's good and necessary in Christianity
while recognizing that we really do haveto do things differently and indeed be different
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in some sense. So it's outof that context that I was attracted to
your latest book, which we're goingto be talking about today, which is
called Improvising Church Scripture as the sourceof harmony, rhythm and soul. Of
course, there's also a musical connection. I have got a musical background,
so that also appealed to me.Anyway, It was absolutely so that this
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is going to be an interesting dimensionto our conversation. So it wasn't so
much that you were particularly discussing theCOVID times, but it was that you
were addressing this central question of howcan we be church authentically in this increasingly
post Christian Western world? Such animportant question. So I want you to
if you would give us a kindof overview of what you're doing with this
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book, and if I may,can I lead into this question with a
quote you say in your introduction.I have written this book for people who
are seeking a fresh vision for thechurch and who are curious to see if
scripture can resource their imagination. AndI feel your book is all about the
imagination, but not just the imagination. So Gordan, what's this book all
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about? How does that fit withwhat I've just quoted from you? Thank
you so much and thanks thanks forreading it so generously. The background of
it, of course, is acultural turn to post Christian society that's happened
so thoroughly in Vancouver where I live, in Sydney, where I grew up
in the UK. More or lessbut differently, and then in America with
much more variety, with variegation andcontestation. But nonetheless, the post Christian
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turn is clear the direction or thereality of worstern societies post Christian And given
that, I mean, that's atumultuous cultural shift. It's incredible. It's
since Constantine the Church has been moreor less at the center of society.
They're kind of at the values andthe rituals, the cultural symbols have been
closely related to the church. Culturalsims of culture, culturalisms of the church.
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And it's in our lifetime, butthat that has changed. That's an
incredible cultural shift. And you know, we see in the Biblical story itself
that the Gospel is constantly being recontextualized, re indigenized for a new cultural moment.
You see that variety in Scripture itself. So you know, it's our
responsibility to think, how are wegoing to hold out the Word of Life
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at this time, How are wegoing to embody the kingdom as a church
at this time. If there's evera generation that needs to think contextually,
that needs to have fresh imagination forthe church with a Bible in our hands,
it's our generation. It's this generation. I mean, COVID is one
thing, and that should be ajolt for us and that invitation to us,
that little spark for us to startthinking freshly because we suspended things for
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a while. But that's not thedeep impulse. The deep impulse is this
deep need to recontextualize for Christian culture. With the Bible in our hands,
it's a time to think, whatis it that we do as a church,
What is it that we are asa church that's well culturally Christian?
And what is it that the Bibleinvites us into. What's the fresh imagination
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that the spirit's stirring in us aswe read scripture and as we share life
together in the name of Jesus ina particular neighborhood. So that's I mean,
that's not a full answer to yourquestion, but at the beginning of
an answer, that's the impetus.Sure, that's the direction. Yeah,
yeah, there's so much more,of course to pull out of that.
I like the way you keep ontalking about with the Bible in our hand,
because immediately I think people might think, oh, we're talking about resourcing
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the imagination and thinking of fresh ways, and does this mean sort of moving
away from the essence of Christianity here, and of course, having read your
book, and that's not the caseat all, and you're saying that,
no, by the Bible in ourhand, you know, scripture is still
central to our understanding of what's goingon here. But you do call us
to rethink, to reimagine, andI love the way you use the jazz
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analogy in your book. Throughout youstructure the whole book with regard to musical
terms and jazz sensibilities. So couldyou tell us why you use jazz?
Obviously you are a a professional jazzpianist, but why did you use jazz?
What is it that's so fecund aboutdoing jazz that helps us think about
this whole process of imagining with theBible in our hand, right, Yeah,
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I mean the title of the bookis improvising Church. Scripture is a
source of harmony, rhythm, andsoul. And as a jazz musician,
I'd become increasingly aware of the similaritybetween what we do as a jazz musician,
rooted in a tradition as we are, and yet improvising as we do,
and what we do is Christians rootedin our tradition, rooted in our
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teachings in scripture by improvising our partin the biblical story. So to illustrate
Julian as you know as a musicteacher, jazz musicians are deeply rooted in
the tradition. So a professional jazzmusician has spent you know, maybe five
thousand hours tapping the rhythms, learningthe harmonies, getting it in our mind,
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in ours, those rhythms, thoseharmonies. As jazz musicians, we
daily immerse ourselves in the tradition.We learn from the masters. We're listening
to master jazz musicians from across thedecades, and we're learning from listening to
their solos, from listening to theway they play the time, listen to
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the way they structure the harmony.So for example, here would be a
line from the fifties, from thebebop era, let me just play it.
You know, that might be aline that you might hear Pysy Gillespie
or Charlie Parker play. You knowwhat I'm saying. So you're learning that
vocabulary, you're learning the tradition.I mean, I could put it in
reverse. There's a vocabulary to itthat you kind of you become familiar with
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through those all that study, thosethousands of hours of practice, and that's
a tradition. And doesn't that connect, you know, with the Christian story.
You know, we get to knowthe Bible. That's our story,
that's our teaching, that's our wisdom, that's our tradition and to authority,
and we immerse in that story.We get to know it's themes, it's
character as the stories. Maybe werage against scripture, maybe we come to
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resolution, maybe we delight, youknow, maybe disorientation and reorientation, and
we learn that tradition over the thousandsof hours immersing in scripture as God's community.
But then when it comes to jazz, the nature of jazz itself is
to be improvised upon. You know, you can't play a solo that's written
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down. That's not jazz. SoI mean, let me just continue with
that. Let's say that bebop lineI played, I'd kind of improvise on
that. If you're like, howabout there's a beautiful Henry man Cini song,
Days of Wine and Roses? Doyou know that one? I don't
actually know. Oh yeah, I'llplay it anyway. It's a beautiful malady,
and I'll try and use that lineup played a second ago and improvised
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with that. So here's days ofWine and Roses, and I'm illustrating on
being anchored, rooted in the tradition, immersed in the tradition, and then
improvising on the Listen there you go, wow. Yeah, you have a
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number of analogies during the book,don't you. And one that sticks in
my mind is to do with achord that's built up with fourths. Perhaps
you could do it on the piano, So now go up C F B
flat E flat. You don't specify, you say that's right. So you
have that as example. And thenyou say, you know a lot of
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jazz musicians coming in and improvising aroundthat chord. And I was thinking of
the chord being a kind of backbone, the scripture, the tradition, and
then all these voices coming in andhaving their own take on that, but
remaining faithful to that core, thatharmonic field. I'm not sure that was
the actual analogy that you're bringing outat that moment, but that's how I
read what you were saying when Iwas reading it. I appreciate that.
(12:09):
Thanks for saying that. Yeah,just that the cored just holding that structure,
that tradition, and I mean,I think I mean to take this
to scripture very explicitly, because thebook's about about church, about scripture rather
than jazz. Sure it's the natureof the Biblical story to be improvised upon,
yes, And I mean there's manyways to look at this. You
can look at the Book of Accidentalthe improvisation there for sure, that would
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perhaps be a great place to start. But you know, as a bibical
scholar, I'm so aware of theway that the Biblical authors themselves are improvising
on the tradition in very creative ways. So it was an Old Testament scholar,
for example, think of that ah, that altestimate metaphor of a covenant,
which is one of the most importanttheological metaphors in the Old Testament.
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And you know, I grew upin the church thinking a covenant was kind
of invented by the Biblical authors bythe inspiration of the spirit. But actually
it was an ancient Near Eastern literaryform or trope or political form. Really,
a covenant was the treatise between thekings, and it was taken by
the Biblical authors to communicate something aboutYahweh now, actually the covenant was quite
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a barbaric literary form. The greatkings of Babylon or New Assyria, they
would conquer or subjugate or threaten asubordinate king and subordinate them by means of
a treaty or a covenant. Andthis covenant had to be kept under threat
of absolute destruction. And the kingsof Israel were subjugated by a covenant to
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New Assyria and Neo Babylon, andso by the inspiration of the spirit.
Rather than inventing the idea of acovenant, the Biblical scribes took that idea
of a covenant, which is thisasonary Eastern political metaphor, and they turned
it on its head, and theysaid, here is a God who makes
a covenant with us. Here isa god, God who gives the land
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instead of taking it. And becauseGod is so generous to us, calls
us to be like that, tobring the weakest among us into the center
of the community, to share it, to be compassionate, to welcome the
refugee. And so this I mentioned, this covenant. The reason I'm talking
this way is to illustrate the waythe Biblical authors themselves were incredible improvisers.
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They had the tradition and they improvisedon it by the inspiration of the spirit.
And that shows me that this storythat we're a part of is to
be known and is to be improvisedupon as we hold out the Word of
Life and embody the Gospel in freshcontext. Yeah, that's interesting, very
interesting, because you know, someof the New Testament writers, and I'm
thinking of the Synoptic Gospels through theMatthew particularly, I think would be quoting
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Old Testaments well, sort of alludingto parts of the Old Testament, but
they wouldn't necessarily be direct quotes,or they wouldn't necessarily be actual foretellings of
Christ, etc. But just asort of an illusion that's picked up that
people would understand, and that wasa kind of foreshadowing those sorts of things
going on. That's quite creative writingas well, isn't it. Yeah,
that's that's really good point. That'sa really great parallel example from the New
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Testament, that's right. Yeah,So I think that when I'm when I
thinking about church, you know,I'm reminded of the incredible creativity in jazz,
and as a jazz musician when I'mplaying beautiful music or hearing beautiful music,
I'm reminded of the beautiful creativity bythe power of the spirit we're invited
into as a church. Yeah,And I was just thinking of doctor Michael
Heizer, who suddenly died I thinkit was last year. He often talked
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about the the polemic in the Bible, so picking up on ancient Near East
ideas and then twisting those to makea point about yeahueh. The Biblical writers
did that in awful Lot as well, didn't they, As you say,
under the inspiration of the spirit.Again, this creativity going on there,
Oh, absolutely, Yeah. TheOld Testament is constantly dialogue and constantly reappropriating
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contemporary literary forms and reshaping it bythe grace the Lordship. That just just
the compassion of Yahweh, always kindof bringing the weakest into the center,
showing the grace of Yahweh, thekindness of Yahweh. Quite incredible, constantly
reappropriated literary forms, right, Yeah, I want to ask you that about
bringing the weak into the center.I'll ask you that in a moment.
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I just want to before we losethis. One of the headings you have
in the book is called the textgrants. So this is in part one,
which is called harmony. The textgrants. Now, what do you
really mean by grant? Doesn't grantyour complete freedom? Does it just to
do any kind of interpretation you like? Yeah, but the text grants.
I mean it's funny just to sayour accents. I mean, OOSI living
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in Canada grants grants, mate,Yes, yes, yes, beautiful grants.
Many of us have complex relationships withscripture, and many of us have
passages that we don't understand, perhapsseem overly harsh or misogynistic, or just
don't fit the way we understand thebig story fitting together of the Bible.
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You know, it's a bit likesomeone was playing piano, you know,
and all of a sudden, thiskind of disjointed thing comes. And there's
many texts in the Bible that canstrike us like that. You know,
that the marsh tones that don't seemto fit with our understanding of God or
understanding the historian, and that thistext grants is my experience that I need
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to journey with the text over time. And Rena Rina Rookie has this beautiful
poem, a sonnet, the Earthgrants. And in this sonnet it's a
farmer who's sows seed, and whetherhe sleeps or wakes, he doesn't know
how, but the seed kind ofcomes to life and brings life. And
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his summary phrase is the earth grants. And for me as a biblical reader,
as a Christian, as a biblicalscholar who studies a text for a
living, my experience is the textgrants if we persevere with it in the
end. And sometimes I get resolution. Often I get resolution when I'm thinking
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about the text in conversation with peoplefrom quite a different culture from mine,
maybe a different life experience, maybea different ethnic culture, maybe a communal
culture for example, or maybe justwhen I just wait for the right scholarship
to come out that has found thatancient nor Eastern texts that this difficult Old
Testament text is dialoguing with but wedidn't realize it, and all of a
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sudden it starts to make sense,and I say, oh, right,
that's the invitation to life in thattext. That's what that text is doing.
But if I tried to close theargument and come to a quick conclusion
when I had the problem, youknow, I mean, yes, absolutely,
yeah, yeah, I've had thatexperience many times. A problem passage
and when I was a young Christian, they used to bother me. It
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give me that sort of pain inthe head, you know. Yeah.
But then a guy called Brian Austin, who run a Christian bookstore I've mentioned
many times on the program, saidto me, well, what he often
did was to kind of mentally putdifficult passages up on the shelf for later
consideration, he said, and veryoften he'd be able to bring those down,
perhaps even years later, and findthat there has been an answer through
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as you say, the experiences thathe's had and the reading that he's done,
et cetera. That's beautiful. You'vehad that experience. An example for
me even yeah, as I wasa pastor, was God's command to Abraham
to sacrifice Isaac. I mean,I don't think as anyone who hasn't been
puzzled by that one, you know, in the Genesis. It took me
years. I just had to sitwith it and trust. And one day
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I noticed the compassion in the narrator'svoice, and that was the beginning of
understanding that he wasn't the narrator's viewthat this was good. Yes, I
read tru you Skoll. The articlecame out that showed how in ancient Near
Eastern treaties that I've already discovered,sometimes a subordinated king would have to promise
pledge the death of his son.Oh, interesting, as a like a
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loyalty O. Now they didn't doit, but it was like a literary
form that it was a way ofindicating loyalty. And that made me think.
It didn't add to all my problems, but it helped me understand what
that literary text was doing. Youknow, it is a text in the
end, and it's a text relatingto other texts, and yes, that's
just an example of journey with thetext. At the time. I'd always
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been important to met, of course, that that sacrifice does not actually happen.
Absolutely. It's a wonderful piece ofwriting, and it goes right to
the tip of the implement, youknow, in a very very dramatic way,
and then doesn't happen because God providesan alternative. But you're leading up,
aren't you, in a step bystep tension growing right up to that
point. And then it's as ifI don't know whether I'm reading it wrongly,
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but I've always read it in thatsense of yes, but God never
intended this at all. It wasa maximum test of Abraham's obedience, and
that's what it's about, perhaps eventhe end spelling the end of human sacrifice
in the world. You know that'sa good lens. Yeah, a lens
exactly. Yeah, sure, yeah. And I think I mean in that
chapter the text grants it's an invitation. The reason I start the whole book
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with it is I do think weneed a fresh am in Yunich. I
think there's four key questions I addressedin that chapter that I think that the
church has to be clear on whatis the gospel, what is the biblical
story, what is the nature ofwitness, and what is biblical ethics?
And you know, we need abig gospel that shows that God in Christ
is recovering the divine purpose of thecreation through the death and resurrection of Jesus.
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But this beautiful, big lens gospel. And then when it comes to
ethics, I think at the centerof biblical ethics, right at the heart
of the Biblical story is what Icall a biblical ethic of kinship, and
the biblical ethic of kinship is bringingthe weakest among us into the center.
And it is this connection between allhumanity as family as we discovery in Genesis
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chapter nine and many other texts.So it's biblical ethic of kinship. We
need to we need to get tothe heart of biblical ethics. So the
text Grants begins the book by saying, no, this story really is beautiful,
and to live into this story isa call to life. You talk
about a lot of reductionisms in thechurch, So you're talking about certain kinds
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of churches which say, oh,I don't know, We've got the Bible's
overall narrative all worked out, thisis it. We've got the as you
say, the Bible's teaching about ethics, this is it. This is the
gospel. It's just this. Itmight not have the wider implications you're arguing
for in the book. What arethese reductionisms specifically? Sure, I'm not
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sure for yourself. Word, Itry not to be too negative in the
book. I try and just createa positive vision. But I don't mind
the question at all. So certainlywe can have an you know, in
some pockets with the church less andless so as another worldly understanding of the
future. So the future if theworld is that the world will burn and
we'll all be kind of taken upinto kind of an other world the existence
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or even more nuanced that the newCreation isn't this world. I think it's
really important to understand that in theBiblical story there a new creation, is
this world renewed. God hasn't givenThere's not a person in the Bible properly
understood that would make us think thatthe future isn't about this world. The
Bible is about this world, andit's about God coming here and renewing these
rivers and these cities and these peoplegroups, even renewing these cities and these
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people groups and these places in lightof the histories that well, we're aware
of and that God's aware. That'sinteresting. None of that's a rays that's
really important because then we really realizethat life in this world matters to God.
Yeah. Absolutely, But you're heretalking about this world being transformed into
an eternal state, are you.You're not talking about the I don't know,
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humans cooperating with God to bring abouta better world that is not an
eternal world. You're not talking alongthose lines. I mean, that's an
interesting phrase. The tonal world.We're sort of minutes a tonal world now
really isn't it in a way?You know, so like, are you
anticipating are you anticipating the resurrection whereour bodies will be resurrected? Oh?
Of course, right, yeah,so certainly we're waiting for Christ to return
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and renew all things. Okay,yeah, absolutely, But there's a continuity.
Would you see a parallel between theresurrection of the believer and the kind
of resurrection of the cosmos into anew state? Would you see a parallel?
There is that helpful? Yeah,certainly. I mean, I think
we're to understand from one Quentin's fifteen, which is the chapter Paul's most significant
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chapter on the resurrection, that theFather rose Christ from the dead as the
first route of this world renewed,which includes new bodies for God's people,
but that in Christ's resurrected body wesee the first example of that material reality
of a renewed world which is sowonderful that we will participate in, and
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that the creation itself will be caughtup in, liberated from its bondage to
decay or something like that, isn'tit Romans eight? Yeah? Yeah,
this is in connection with this,you say that therefore God values what is
happening in this world now, includingof course art. God values esthetics,
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and you say God values my musicsimply because God values esthetics and art making.
But you go further. You goon to say that it's important to
actually do art well within the church. I think you even talk in terms
of having an artist in residence orsomething within your church community. That was
(25:25):
an amazing idea, right, Yeah, I think so. I think beauty
is a glimpse of God. Ironically, in my own journey, even as
an artist theologian, I've been reallyslow to recognize it, even as I
understood this world matters to God andart making matters to God. I could
say it, but honestly, Julian, it's still a personal journey to really
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believe it as a musician and toreally trust, for example, as a
musician that my music is expressing somethingof the beauty of God, of the
glory of the Creator. Yeah.In the chapter on beauty, I'm saying
that we need to attend to beautyin all we do as churches. Certainly
we need to attend to art makingand to artists. But we can learn
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from artists and from our own creativeintuition that we all have to get creative
in everything we do together as achurch. What about being artists, getting
creative in the way we do housing, for example, in gentrified neighborhoods like
mine. What if we get creativein the way that we eat, sourcing
from local farmers. What if weget creative in the way that we worship,
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writing homegrown music that really emerges fromthe story of our community, not
the story from Hillsong, Australia.What relates? Yeah, So to be
artists, to attend to aesthetics andbeauty, and to value that because beauty
is a glimpse of God. AndI think it's very important in post Christian
culture that the Church, for thesake of our witness, attends to this.
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Yeah. Absolutely. I wanted tobring a quote to you that you're
quoting somebody I think who wrote onTwitter, and I thought this is a
very important quote. Let me justread it. Why do people leave a
community? Many reasons, but onethat I've recently gained insight into is that
people leave when they no longer seea vision for or room for their future
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self fascinating it who they want towho they want to be, and are
already becoming. And then this personsaid true for me with cities jobs recently.
Church? Is that a central thingof what you're doing with this book
to provide a possibility of vision forpeople who are feeling like that that church
is becoming increasingly irrelevant to who theywant to be, right, I mean,
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it's fascinating. It's a fascinating quote, isn't it that they don't find
in the church the kind of personthey're becoming. I mean I think,
yes, I quote that quote verypositively in the book. Well more curiously.
I mean, there's obviously a certainWestern kind of individualism there, and
we can name that, and there'sthings that you might want to sit with
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slightly critically, but you know that'snot the point. The point is here's
a good person who are seeking,who are seeking beauty and good and justice
and compassion and I'm assuming the bestin the quote, right, Yeah,
And somehow in the church they findsomething banal, they find something that that
isn't what they're reaching for in termsof love and compassion and community and significance.
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You know, of course that youknow, you could you could somehow
turn that quote to sound you couldread it to be narcissistic, or you
could read it to be self obsessed, but that's not the point. I
think many of my friends are seekingsomething beautiful for their lives, seeking something
compassionate and just connected to place,connected to art. And the thing is
this is all about the Biblical story. All of this that I've just described
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place, art, beauty, justiceis part of the Biblical story. And
sometimes somehow the church can become banal. Absolutely, you know, it can
be like I kind of grew upwith Jehovahjyra, you know, my provider,
you know. I mean, I'mjust kind of thinking off the top
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of my head. You're Julian,but I'm just trying to think, you
know, what is this banalas thatwe can bring to the church, to
the life of the church, whenactually this Biblical story is so rich.
So stay with Jehovah Jira. Imean, I'm just flying. I haven't
played that tune in thirty years,man, but just out of interest,
you know, you know. Andthe point is, you know, where's
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the soul? You know, tothink in musical terms or in Black American
music terms, you know, thesoul as they're in our tradition, you
know, the soul as they're inour savior. You know, we just
have to. We have to behuman with the Bible in our hands,
and we have to you know,we have to reflect the soul, you
know, yes, yes, wehave. Another thing is that we have
to be authentic. We have tobe truly ourselves. That's not of course
(30:23):
making room for sinfulness, but thebest of ourselves, but the whole of
ourselves, the whole of the bestof ourselves, if you see what I
mean. And that particular quote reallyjumped out at me because be no surprise
to listeners, I don't feel thatmany of the churches around me reflect who
(30:44):
I am and who I have become. I still find it very difficult to
go back into churches. This isafter the COVID experience for a whole bunch
of reasons. And one of themain reasons for that is because there are
so many things inside my head thatI cannot discuss in a standard Christian community.
(31:06):
I find that very, very difficult. But what I find really interesting
about your book is that you talkabout conversations, and in your church communities
you have incredibly open conversations involving evenquite controversial things. Now this is news
to my ears. You know,music to my ears, all manner of
things can be discussed, emotionally chargedtopics that threaten to split the community.
(31:32):
Now this is astonishing to me.I yearn for this, the ability to
go into fellowship with people and expressthe concerns that I have about all kinds
of things. How do you manageto do that in your community? Oh,
what a beautiful question you have?Well, I think you know it's
I mean, why quickly is twelve? If anyone has a word. You
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know, the New Testament Church wasmore diological than we imagine the first Christians.
There was often more than one preacher. My understanding is that was sus
standard practice. And you know,speaking the truth in love in Ephesians and
also speaking the truth in love,he's talking about, you know, issues
(32:14):
that really mattered to him. Butthat text is about having conversations and staying
unified. You know, Paul,when he says speaking the truth in love,
who's speaking about jiu gentile conflicts inEphesians four. This is stuff that
really mattered to Paul. He hadvery strong opinions on it. And yet
he's speaking about postures of humility andgentleness, bearing with one another in love
(32:37):
Ephesians four too, nurturing one anotherin Christ. So I think as churches
we need to learn to talk toone another. The Bible's written to all
of us. We need to learnto have conversations. What does that take.
It takes. It takes Christian leaderswith real emotional health, emotional flexibility.
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It takes that kind of growdedness andour identity in Christ as pastors and
as lay leaders, so that wecan name our fears. You know,
some people will fear that something offensivewill be said. Other people will fear
that in the end of the wedgeof a heresy will raise its head.
We could trust one another, andwe have to learn to trust the best
(33:20):
in one another and in post Christiancontexts, which we're in but we're still
learning to be in. I thinkthat flourishing, vibrant churches are going to
be characterized by conversations. I thinkthey're going to have to be because there
are literally millions of people who arefinding themselves on the periphery of I don't
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know what could you call this intellectuallife, where they have very deep questions
about all kinds of things that aregoing on in the world and are not
able even to broach those subjects withinChristian communities. I'm speaking from my experience
very much, So I'm just goingto throw out a lot of subjects that
people would reject me even if Italked about any of them. So we're
(34:06):
Lockdown's right? Our COVID vaccine's reallysafe and effective? Can we really trust
the World Health Organization? Is VladimirPutin really another hitler? Or is there
actually more to understand about geopolitics thanwe're often shown? Is what Israel is
doing in Gazo morally defensible? Canwe question the alarmism of climate science?
(34:29):
Is anyone else worried by a cashlesssociety? Is anybody worried about digital ID
or the threat of a social creditsystem? Now? I could add loads
and loads of other questions. Ican tell you there's not one of those
that I could comfortably bring up inany church that I can think of around
here. And yet I am worriedabout a lot of these things. And
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I know that hundreds of thousands,millions of other people are as well.
And it seems to me that thechurch is locking a lot of people out
by having a kind of self imposedover to the window. You know,
you must not discuss anything other thanniceness. Right, that's just thinking about
the normal mainstream things, right.Anybody outside that is a conspiracy theorist,
(35:10):
you know, which is the kindof meme of social engineering which locks people
out from engaging with or even engagingwith their own thoughts. How would you
could you even have conversations about anyof those things? For example? Yeah,
I mean I think it's it's wherewe start, you know, I
mean our in our church, thechurches where our past. Do we surround
(35:32):
conversations with the Eucharist? Yes,so we remind ourselves to one body in
Christ, and we don't we strivefor like heartedness not rather like mindedness?
Yes? Yes, what does thatspeak about? That? In our books?
That's right? What does that mean? I was intrigued by that?
What does that mean? What isour center? Our center is Jesus.
Our shared commitment is to being toour shared life in our particular neighborhood,
(35:57):
a shared life of compassion and lovefor one another and for our neighbors.
So we're likehearted in Jesus and inextending Jesus love in Jesus' name. Okay,
but that doesn't mean that we agreeon everything, but we can be
committed to one another into having conversations. We can't exhaust one another. There
(36:17):
obviously has to be a tempo toit, There has to be a measuredness
to it. But that willingness tostay together and have hard conversations, trusting
our like heartedness, trusting the bestin one another. I think that's what
trusts me sure, trusting the bestin one another. So to come back
to my question, could questions likethose come up in that context and be
(36:42):
accepted as something worth talking about withoutpeople rolling their eyes and saying under their
breath, you know, conspiracy theoristblah blah blah. Could you have conversations
like that? Oh? Sure,I mean everything and everything could be talked
about. I mean it's good,you know, in our experience to start
with simple things. Might want tostart by having a conversation about the sermon
topic. For example, yes,you know the breach on Sunday. That's
(37:07):
hard enough, right, right,right? Well absolutely, I've a previous
minister actually had a talking table totry and encourage conversation exactly on that,
right, the subject of the sermon, and it didn't work. People didn't
want to talk about even that.So then we are Yeah, I mean,
I don't know that particular context,but in our experience by you know,
(37:27):
it's a different set of skills towhat past us my age learnt in
seminaries. Seminaries and our pastoral trainingwe need to turn to, I believe,
train in those soft skills, thosehigh relational skills of facilitation, conflict
resolution, those skills that build communityand that show that we value relationship.
(37:50):
You know, the way that Iwas trained in seminary was more those kind
of harder skills of vision finances,those more alpha leader kind of skills.
They're important, but we need adifferent the way that I speak about leadership.
For my booking Provicy Churches, Ihave a chapter called leader Full How
can we How can key leaders likepastors and lay leaders be nourishing leader full
communities? Communities where every person bringstheir best gifts, their best creative imagination
(38:15):
to the table and trusts that theirbest gifts will be received and can contribute.
That's a leader full community, andfor that we need those soft skills
of facilitation, working through conflict andso on and so forth. Yes,
you very interestingly talk about leaders asbeing of all kinds, really of having
all kinds of skills. Perhaps evensome people you wouldn't normally think of as
(38:37):
having leadership skills, but actually they'rejust the right skills for a particular ministry
context. And even you talk aboutpeople who might consider themselves not to be
a leader for life, but justfor a short time, that that's right
for them, God calls them,perhaps to a year or two or something
like that. I must have beenI'd not thought in those terms before.
The one thing I had thought about, perhaps slightly like that, was sometimes
(39:00):
I have this idea that, youknow, there's the gifts of the spirit,
and I sometimes think to myself,you know, maybe it's the little
old lady you know at the backof the church has this astonishing gift of
healing, and it's never tapped into, it's never realized. You know,
maybe God gives that gift to themost unlikely quote unquote to people, not
the thirty five year a year oldwith the sneakers on at the front of
(39:20):
that sort of thing, but perhapsthe most demure person may be amazingly gifted
if only we realize that. SoI like that idea of this leader full
approach, that leaders can be throughoutthe community, and we need to recognize
that need to tap into that.That's right. It's a certain posture that
we use as key leaders, passesand lay leaders up the front that communicates
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we're not taking up all the space, given the tone of voice, the
way we kind of posture our bodiesdepending on our height and identity. You
know, I'm a tall white man. I've got to take up less space,
so that it's communicating in the waythat I'm up the front that there's
room for lots of people this roomfor your best ideas and imaginings. That
I'm communic that I'm taking up alittle space here, but everyone's taken up
(40:02):
some space and as welcome to thetable. So it's that posture. Yeap.
What did you mean by coherence?You mentioned that your mother was a
therapist and that she talked a lotabout coherence. News say, I think
that the idea of coherence is animportant lens for speaking about Jesus. What
is that coherence? I presume youdon't just mean making sense when you speak
(40:25):
something it's right, having a goodcase like apologetics. You didn't mean that,
did you. Yeah, that's right. I speak about what I grew
up calling evangelism and what does givingwords to Jesus in our conversations with those
who don't know him look like inpost Christian society? And so I have
a chapter to voter to that,and I use a therapeutic concept of coherence.
(40:45):
So coherence for a therapist, mymother's a therapist, as you mentioned,
means an alignment of what's going onin my heart and what I say.
What's going on therefore, even onmy face, my facial expressions,
and what I say, that I'mfully aligned, fully aligned with the person,
but even more importantly, fully alignedwith myself, so that what I'm
(41:06):
saying comes from a deep and alignedand authentic place as a therapist, and
that's where the healing is. Itis similar to music in a way.
If I may as a musician,I can be coherent and incoherent, and
in any performance I'll usually kind ofmove in and out of both. So,
for example, a coherence means thatthere is that unity between what's going
(41:28):
on in my heart, my mind, and in the sound I'm producing.
You know, it's not, forexample, hyper rational thought out but not
in the heart, but there's thatcoherence. So a coherence will kind of
we'll bring that soul, you know, so when it comes to speaking about
(41:50):
Jesus, it's quite the same thing. I think that when I say something
about Jesus my Savior, that it'snot like a door knocking exercise that I
grew up with, where I knowthat there's these things and I'm trying to
get to say I'm trying to getalmost permission in the conversation to blurt something
out about Jesus. That's how Igrew up in the doorknocky exercises I used
to leave as a young adult.We all did those of a certain age
(42:14):
like that. One is that Igave up smoking. Oh well, because
of the explosion. What was thatwhen Christ came into my heart? Yeah?
Right right, absolutely, Sorry cringe, but Okayherence means I'm genuinely with
the person, and what I sayis, you know, there's an alignment
between what's in my mind what's inmy heart, and then I'm integrated with
(42:37):
who I really am, and soI can speak about Jesus simply as my
Lord or whoever Jesus is to methat day is my Savior. And my
mother. I mentioned my mother becauseshe was amazing at this. My mother
would talk about Jesus. The samewith someone who was a fellow Christian and
someone who wasn't. She would justtalk about Jesus because she was journeying with
(42:58):
Jesus and aware of jesus presence everyday. So in heather she talked about
Jesus, which she did often.It was effortless, It was like breathing,
and it was received that way becauseit was so coherent. There was
no disjunction between her heart and faithor her face her words wow, and
what was going on between the heartsof her and the person she was speaking
with. I think that's a reallyhelpful I find that a very helpful lens.
(43:22):
Yes, yeah, a great placeto be. And you say the
early church kind of helps us withthis because you don't see so much of
them exhorting each other all the timeto go out and evangelize. It just
sort of happens they do that,Adam. What you see more is of
them living authentic lives together in thespirit, with excellent teaching, of course,
but people see how they are andwho they are. Yeah, have
(43:45):
I got you right there? That'swhat you mean. Absolutely. There was
talking about the very earliest church thereas well. Are you talking about the
Book of Acts for example. Yeah, I think the first few Christian centries,
there's a spiritual it was characterized byspiritual power. Yes, that was
shown in this contrast if way ofattending to the weakest, both in the
church and outside of the church,of generosity, of if there was a
(44:06):
plague and everyone fled the city,the Christians would stay. And that was
the spiritual power, of power inmartyrdom, spiritual power in healings. So,
for example, the only First Christianslived in Roman culture tenement buildings like
apartment blocks today. You know,they lived life very approximate to their neighbors.
If a neighbor was sick, perhapsdying, someone in the first Christian
(44:27):
community might say, well, Iknow a healer, and someone from the
church who was gifted in healing wouldcome and pray for the person, and
perhaps that person would recover from theirinfirmity and they would come to know the
Lord Jesus, you know, Andthere was this kind of a spiritual power
in their life that was compelling.Yes, And you feel that it's the
same with compelling music. Yeah.You say in the book that you think
(44:49):
because of this post Christian turn andas the church declines in one sense that
actually God is going to do morepowerful things in the future. Why do
you have that confidence that God isgoing to do that with us? Yeah,
I think as we are forced fromthe center, but even better,
as we relinquish the center, Ilet go of power among ourselves and in
(45:10):
culture and become more dependent on God, that our spiritual power will in a
sense return. You know, maybeeven the miracles will return. You know
that those miracles that characterize the firstChristian center, is it still characterized the
church today, especially in other nonWestern parts of the world. I think
that as we become more marginal andmore dependent, I think that I'm excited.
(45:35):
I'm excited as an old person,as an old man, which I
will be soon enough at age fifteenhour no see the church that our children
will be leading and our grandchildren willbe leading. I'm excited for that church.
Well, that's a fantastic position tohave, because there's so much negativity.
When people are talking about the declinein numbers, etcetera, etcetera.
It can be all very depressing.But if you are that God is in
(46:00):
fact going to do something special inthis new context, that is very very
exciting. Indeed, this is oneof the things, of course, that
I've been praying for in my ownexperience. I'm still looking for some new
expression of church. I still don'tknow what that's going to be. I'm
dipping in and out of the churchcommunity I belong to, but it's still
(46:21):
not right. There's still something notright about it which listeners will know about.
I'm still waiting for that thing,but I still believe God is going
to do. I don't know whatit's going to be. Yeah, thank
you for sharing. One thing youdo talk about quite a bit is colonialism
in the church. But is thisreflecting the situation that you're in particularly right?
(46:42):
Yep, So thank you. There'sa chapter called the Sins of Our
que and I think that for thechurch to be healthy, for the church
to heal, for the church toreceive what Christ wants to give us,
I think we need to fess upto the stories of people's life and that
are part of our story as Westernersand are part of the Church's story,
(47:07):
certainly in the countries that I've livedAustralia, in Canada, there's a colonial
story of displacement. In America,a colonial story of displacement of First Nations
people and enslavement of Black American people, and also the story of the beauty
of the world, your First Nationspeoples and their way of life, and
(47:27):
the resilience and genius of Black Americanpeople who birthed jazz and blues for goodness
sake, and we need to weneed to learn the histories of people and
land in our particular place and shapeour lives appropriately, and shape our liturgy
appropriately in that light, and fosterrelationships that are shaped by repentance and are
(47:51):
conscious of harm that's been caused andthe harm that could be caused. This
is very important for the witness ofGod's people. Yes, and I like
the way that you discussed this inthe book, because you know, so
often we hear about a sort ofsurface repentance, virtue signaling kind of repent.
You know, people taking the kneeas if taking the knee is the
(48:12):
be all and end all, andyou've proved you're not a racist by doing
that, and these large statements aboutapologizing for the past, etc. But
you seem to be concentrating on goingforward, that the learning, becoming involved
with people of different backgrounds, ratherthan concentrating on the past and trying to
look good, etc. That seemsto be a very important way of considering
this. Sure. I mean it'syeah, we're learning, you know,
(48:36):
And I think that's that's the firstposture to humbly learn from particularly people who
have been on the marginalized side ofthe colonial story, to shut up,
you know, and learn and toconfess and then to live well in the
land. You know. There's aFirst Nation's phrase in North America to walk
in a good way on the land. And I think we have a lot
to learn from First Nations communities inNorth America about walking in a good way
(49:00):
way on the land. So Ihaven't lived in the UK, Julia.
The cloudial story obviously in Europe andthe UK was held there as a center
of power for centuries, and I'mcurious about how the church can hold that
story. Yeah, I don't hearvery much about it, you know.
I hear about people apologizing for thepast, the sins of the past,
(49:21):
and I think to myself, well, I can't really apologize for since of
the past. What I can dois learn about them, and learn about
other people and value other people.Those are things that I can do.
It seems to be the most valuableway forward. It's interesting, yeah,
I mean it's certain. I thinkbeyond what we know as Westerns, there's
a lot about generational sin in theOld Testament, you know, so near
my ten and Daniel, these prayersof confession for generational sin. I think,
(49:46):
as Western as we can disenchant theworld and forget that the sins of
our kin, as I call thatchapter, are our sins. I think
that neuroscience is actually a way intothat, the way the generational trauma passes
down, and that could be forthe people on the top of the pile
or the bottom of the pile,and the colonial story. So I think
(50:07):
the colonial story is our story.And I really believe that the trauma we've
experienced and the trauma we've caused impactswho the church is today. Concretely,
it's only about by giving attention tothose stories that we're going to heal if
we say the church isn't as beautifulas it should be, if we show
that, say the church doesn't reflectthe tenderness of Jesus. In my opinion,
(50:29):
in ways, I don't understand thatproblem is rooted in the colonial story
in part, and I want tolearn more about how it is and how
I'm living into that script too today. Right, Yeah, Well, your
book did challenge me in a numberof ways, and that's one of the
ways in which it did, forsure, And it connects again with that
trap Brian Austin, who had agreat influence upon me and right, and
(50:50):
one of the things he's said was, you know, people are not going
to listen to us unless we admitthe faults that have happened in Christianity in
the past. We have to justadmit those, you know, and then
people will open to listen to whatwe have to say. So I think
that is very important, really veryinteresting book. There's so much more we
could talk about. Have a lunitytime. Of course, it got me
thinking a lot about how to doand be church in different ways and ways
(51:14):
that I wouldn't even have thought aboutit actually, And I think I found
the analogical dimension of the book itselfreally really helpful, you know that Jazz
analogy, because it's such a powerfulimage. It invites me to kind of
keep improvising in my own head whileI read your book. Do you know
what I mean about how things couldbe different and yet still the same,
(51:34):
still fundamentally the same, but witha different tune, a different flavor,
because things do have to change.And when you say in the book in
which we're not going back, there'sno way we're going back. There are
difficulties ahead and we have to learnto be the same but different, really
useful image. So, as Isay, quite challenging in some ways.
And I did find myself disagreeing attimes, which is fine. You say
you like disagreements anything. I likedisagreement, but sometimes modifying my position slightly
(52:00):
as I carried on reading. SoI do recommend it. Listeners, please
do read this, especially if you'reit says here in the book, a
passionate pastor, a pastor student,or a lay leader, or anybody else
really, any believer. I doread it. So that is improvising Church
Scripture as the source of harmony,rhythm and Soul by Mark Glanville. And
it's available at Intervarsity Press, whichwe'll find at ibpress dot com. So
(52:22):
thanks very much for your time.Mark, It's been a wonderful conversation,
pleasure speaking to you. Thank you, Julian, And let me say,
as an author, I'm so gratefulthat you read the book with such a
full heart and so closely thank youfor that gift. Oh, thank you
for saying so. Yeah, Ireally enjoyed it. Yes, thank you,
thank you. Good to be withyou. Show Notes for this program
can be found at the Mind RenewedtheMIND Renewed dot com podcast. Music by
(52:45):
the brilliant Anthony rajeacop attribution non commercialshare like poor point Zert International. You
have been listening to me, JulianCharles and my guest Dr Mark Glanville,
and I very much look forward tospeaking to you again in the near future.
The one in Karai
Hello everybody. Julian Charles here oftheMIND Reneude dot com. Coming to you
as usual from the depths of theLancashire countryside here in the UK, and
today after quite a break because ofproblems I've been having at the website,
which many of you know about,I am now at long last, very
pleased to welcome to the program doctorMark Glanville, who is Associate Professor of
(00:31):
Pastoral Theology at Regent College, Vancouverand an Old Testament scholar who earned his
PhD from the University of Bristol herein the UK and is the author of
numerous articles and books. Previously,he ministered in missional urban communities in both
Canada and Australia and was a professorof congregational theology at the Missional Training Center
(00:53):
in Phoenix, and added to allthat if that wasn't enough, he is
also a professional jazz pianist, whichskill set much keeps alive in connection with
his teaching and ministry, which we'llhear about in just a moment. I'm
glad to say Dr Grahamville, thankyou very much indeed for joining us on
the program. Thanks so much forhaving me, Julia. Good to know
you. Good to know your people. Well, it's a huge pleasure to
(01:14):
be speaking with you very much.Enjoyed your book and been looking forward to
this conversation very much. Thanks foragreeing to come on now. Actually,
before we get going with the conversation, I've got a little quote here from
you which I'm eager to ask youabout. So this is from your faculty
page at Regent College. Quote.Mark is an aussy. He likes to
express his masculinity by snapping a crocodile'sneck with two fingers. So I'm wondering
(01:40):
should I be afraid of you.I've never actually caounded a crocodile, you
know, in honesty, you know, but if I did, if I
did, you know, I feelconfident. So I get to have a
shot. Are you a Paul Hoganfan? By any chance? That was
epic? Hey? When I wasa kid, crocodile Doe came out,
(02:00):
and then I came to Canada attwenty eleven, you know, while and
truly as an adult with kids,and the one thing everyone knew at the
time anyway about Australia with crocodile Dundee. And so people would say to me,
call that a knife this is aknife. I hadn't seen the movie
for twenty five years, you know, So if I ever do in Cana
(02:21):
a crocodile, there's the inspiration absolutelyas well. All the best if you
do, I wish you all that, all right. So I want to
have this conversation with you because listenerswill know I've been running a series for
the last couple of years called FollowingChrist in the New Old Normal, and
I've been exploring with various guests howwe might best do church or be church
(02:43):
in the post COVID world. Sowe've been asking ourselves what have we learned
in the last few years about theworld and perhaps more importantly, about ourselves.
And in so far as we recognizethat there has to be a change
in the church, how can wepresent of what's good and necessary in Christianity
while recognizing that we really do haveto do things differently and indeed be different
(03:07):
in some sense. So it's outof that context that I was attracted to
your latest book, which we're goingto be talking about today, which is
called Improvising Church Scripture as the sourceof harmony, rhythm and soul. Of
course, there's also a musical connection. I have got a musical background,
so that also appealed to me.Anyway, It was absolutely so that this
(03:30):
is going to be an interesting dimensionto our conversation. So it wasn't so
much that you were particularly discussing theCOVID times, but it was that you
were addressing this central question of howcan we be church authentically in this increasingly
post Christian Western world? Such animportant question. So I want you to
if you would give us a kindof overview of what you're doing with this
(03:52):
book, and if I may,can I lead into this question with a
quote you say in your introduction.I have written this book for people who
are seeking a fresh vision for thechurch and who are curious to see if
scripture can resource their imagination. AndI feel your book is all about the
imagination, but not just the imagination. So Gordan, what's this book all
(04:15):
about? How does that fit withwhat I've just quoted from you? Thank
you so much and thanks thanks forreading it so generously. The background of
it, of course, is acultural turn to post Christian society that's happened
so thoroughly in Vancouver where I live, in Sydney, where I grew up
in the UK. More or lessbut differently, and then in America with
much more variety, with variegation andcontestation. But nonetheless, the post Christian
(04:41):
turn is clear the direction or thereality of worstern societies post Christian And given
that, I mean, that's atumultuous cultural shift. It's incredible. It's
since Constantine the Church has been moreor less at the center of society.
They're kind of at the values andthe rituals, the cultural symbols have been
closely related to the church. Culturalsims of culture, culturalisms of the church.
(05:05):
And it's in our lifetime, butthat that has changed. That's an
incredible cultural shift. And you know, we see in the Biblical story itself
that the Gospel is constantly being recontextualized, re indigenized for a new cultural moment.
You see that variety in Scripture itself. So you know, it's our
responsibility to think, how are wegoing to hold out the Word of Life
(05:28):
at this time, How are wegoing to embody the kingdom as a church
at this time. If there's evera generation that needs to think contextually,
that needs to have fresh imagination forthe church with a Bible in our hands,
it's our generation. It's this generation. I mean, COVID is one
thing, and that should be ajolt for us and that invitation to us,
that little spark for us to startthinking freshly because we suspended things for
(05:53):
a while. But that's not thedeep impulse. The deep impulse is this
deep need to recontextualize for Christian culture. With the Bible in our hands,
it's a time to think, whatis it that we do as a church,
What is it that we are asa church that's well culturally Christian?
And what is it that the Bibleinvites us into. What's the fresh imagination
(06:13):
that the spirit's stirring in us aswe read scripture and as we share life
together in the name of Jesus ina particular neighborhood. So that's I mean,
that's not a full answer to yourquestion, but at the beginning of
an answer, that's the impetus.Sure, that's the direction. Yeah,
yeah, there's so much more,of course to pull out of that.
I like the way you keep ontalking about with the Bible in our hand,
because immediately I think people might think, oh, we're talking about resourcing
(06:34):
the imagination and thinking of fresh ways, and does this mean sort of moving
away from the essence of Christianity here, and of course, having read your
book, and that's not the caseat all, and you're saying that,
no, by the Bible in ourhand, you know, scripture is still
central to our understanding of what's goingon here. But you do call us
to rethink, to reimagine, andI love the way you use the jazz
(06:54):
analogy in your book. Throughout youstructure the whole book with regard to musical
terms and jazz sensibilities. So couldyou tell us why you use jazz?
Obviously you are a a professional jazzpianist, but why did you use jazz?
What is it that's so fecund aboutdoing jazz that helps us think about
this whole process of imagining with theBible in our hand, right, Yeah,
(07:16):
I mean the title of the bookis improvising Church. Scripture is a
source of harmony, rhythm, andsoul. And as a jazz musician,
I'd become increasingly aware of the similaritybetween what we do as a jazz musician,
rooted in a tradition as we are, and yet improvising as we do,
and what we do is Christians rootedin our tradition, rooted in our
(07:39):
teachings in scripture by improvising our partin the biblical story. So to illustrate
Julian as you know as a musicteacher, jazz musicians are deeply rooted in
the tradition. So a professional jazzmusician has spent you know, maybe five
thousand hours tapping the rhythms, learningthe harmonies, getting it in our mind,
(07:59):
in ours, those rhythms, thoseharmonies. As jazz musicians, we
daily immerse ourselves in the tradition.We learn from the masters. We're listening
to master jazz musicians from across thedecades, and we're learning from listening to
their solos, from listening to theway they play the time, listen to
(08:20):
the way they structure the harmony.So for example, here would be a
line from the fifties, from thebebop era, let me just play it.
You know, that might be aline that you might hear Pysy Gillespie
or Charlie Parker play. You knowwhat I'm saying. So you're learning that
vocabulary, you're learning the tradition.I mean, I could put it in
reverse. There's a vocabulary to itthat you kind of you become familiar with
(08:46):
through those all that study, thosethousands of hours of practice, and that's
a tradition. And doesn't that connect, you know, with the Christian story.
You know, we get to knowthe Bible. That's our story,
that's our teaching, that's our wisdom, that's our tradition and to authority,
and we immerse in that story.We get to know it's themes, it's
character as the stories. Maybe werage against scripture, maybe we come to
(09:07):
resolution, maybe we delight, youknow, maybe disorientation and reorientation, and
we learn that tradition over the thousandsof hours immersing in scripture as God's community.
But then when it comes to jazz, the nature of jazz itself is
to be improvised upon. You know, you can't play a solo that's written
(09:28):
down. That's not jazz. SoI mean, let me just continue with
that. Let's say that bebop lineI played, I'd kind of improvise on
that. If you're like, howabout there's a beautiful Henry man Cini song,
Days of Wine and Roses? Doyou know that one? I don't
actually know. Oh yeah, I'llplay it anyway. It's a beautiful malady,
and I'll try and use that lineup played a second ago and improvised
(09:52):
with that. So here's days ofWine and Roses, and I'm illustrating on
being anchored, rooted in the tradition, immersed in the tradition, and then
improvising on the Listen there you go, wow. Yeah, you have a
(11:26):
number of analogies during the book,don't you. And one that sticks in
my mind is to do with achord that's built up with fourths. Perhaps
you could do it on the piano, So now go up C F B
flat E flat. You don't specify, you say that's right. So you
have that as example. And thenyou say, you know a lot of
(11:48):
jazz musicians coming in and improvising aroundthat chord. And I was thinking of
the chord being a kind of backbone, the scripture, the tradition, and
then all these voices coming in andhaving their own take on that, but
remaining faithful to that core, thatharmonic field. I'm not sure that was
the actual analogy that you're bringing outat that moment, but that's how I
read what you were saying when Iwas reading it. I appreciate that.
(12:09):
Thanks for saying that. Yeah,just that the cored just holding that structure,
that tradition, and I mean,I think I mean to take this
to scripture very explicitly, because thebook's about about church, about scripture rather
than jazz. Sure it's the natureof the Biblical story to be improvised upon,
yes, And I mean there's manyways to look at this. You
can look at the Book of Accidentalthe improvisation there for sure, that would
(12:31):
perhaps be a great place to start. But you know, as a bibical
scholar, I'm so aware of theway that the Biblical authors themselves are improvising
on the tradition in very creative ways. So it was an Old Testament scholar,
for example, think of that ah, that altestimate metaphor of a covenant,
which is one of the most importanttheological metaphors in the Old Testament.
(12:52):
And you know, I grew upin the church thinking a covenant was kind
of invented by the Biblical authors bythe inspiration of the spirit. But actually
it was an ancient Near Eastern literaryform or trope or political form. Really,
a covenant was the treatise between thekings, and it was taken by
the Biblical authors to communicate something aboutYahweh now, actually the covenant was quite
(13:16):
a barbaric literary form. The greatkings of Babylon or New Assyria, they
would conquer or subjugate or threaten asubordinate king and subordinate them by means of
a treaty or a covenant. Andthis covenant had to be kept under threat
of absolute destruction. And the kingsof Israel were subjugated by a covenant to
(13:39):
New Assyria and Neo Babylon, andso by the inspiration of the spirit.
Rather than inventing the idea of acovenant, the Biblical scribes took that idea
of a covenant, which is thisasonary Eastern political metaphor, and they turned
it on its head, and theysaid, here is a God who makes
a covenant with us. Here isa god, God who gives the land
(14:01):
instead of taking it. And becauseGod is so generous to us, calls
us to be like that, tobring the weakest among us into the center
of the community, to share it, to be compassionate, to welcome the
refugee. And so this I mentioned, this covenant. The reason I'm talking
this way is to illustrate the waythe Biblical authors themselves were incredible improvisers.
(14:22):
They had the tradition and they improvisedon it by the inspiration of the spirit.
And that shows me that this storythat we're a part of is to
be known and is to be improvisedupon as we hold out the Word of
Life and embody the Gospel in freshcontext. Yeah, that's interesting, very
interesting, because you know, someof the New Testament writers, and I'm
thinking of the Synoptic Gospels through theMatthew particularly, I think would be quoting
(14:46):
Old Testaments well, sort of alludingto parts of the Old Testament, but
they wouldn't necessarily be direct quotes,or they wouldn't necessarily be actual foretellings of
Christ, etc. But just asort of an illusion that's picked up that
people would understand, and that wasa kind of foreshadowing those sorts of things
going on. That's quite creative writingas well, isn't it. Yeah,
that's that's really good point. That'sa really great parallel example from the New
(15:07):
Testament, that's right. Yeah,So I think that when I'm when I
thinking about church, you know,I'm reminded of the incredible creativity in jazz,
and as a jazz musician when I'mplaying beautiful music or hearing beautiful music,
I'm reminded of the beautiful creativity bythe power of the spirit we're invited
into as a church. Yeah,And I was just thinking of doctor Michael
Heizer, who suddenly died I thinkit was last year. He often talked
(15:31):
about the the polemic in the Bible, so picking up on ancient Near East
ideas and then twisting those to makea point about yeahueh. The Biblical writers
did that in awful Lot as well, didn't they, As you say,
under the inspiration of the spirit.Again, this creativity going on there,
Oh, absolutely, Yeah. TheOld Testament is constantly dialogue and constantly reappropriating
(15:52):
contemporary literary forms and reshaping it bythe grace the Lordship. That just just
the compassion of Yahweh, always kindof bringing the weakest into the center,
showing the grace of Yahweh, thekindness of Yahweh. Quite incredible, constantly
reappropriated literary forms, right, Yeah, I want to ask you that about
bringing the weak into the center.I'll ask you that in a moment.
(16:15):
I just want to before we losethis. One of the headings you have
in the book is called the textgrants. So this is in part one,
which is called harmony. The textgrants. Now, what do you
really mean by grant? Doesn't grantyour complete freedom? Does it just to
do any kind of interpretation you like? Yeah, but the text grants.
I mean it's funny just to sayour accents. I mean, OOSI living
(16:37):
in Canada grants grants, mate,Yes, yes, yes, beautiful grants.
Many of us have complex relationships withscripture, and many of us have
passages that we don't understand, perhapsseem overly harsh or misogynistic, or just
don't fit the way we understand thebig story fitting together of the Bible.
(17:00):
You know, it's a bit likesomeone was playing piano, you know,
and all of a sudden, thiskind of disjointed thing comes. And there's
many texts in the Bible that canstrike us like that. You know,
that the marsh tones that don't seemto fit with our understanding of God or
understanding the historian, and that thistext grants is my experience that I need
(17:23):
to journey with the text over time. And Rena Rina Rookie has this beautiful
poem, a sonnet, the Earthgrants. And in this sonnet it's a
farmer who's sows seed, and whetherhe sleeps or wakes, he doesn't know
how, but the seed kind ofcomes to life and brings life. And
(17:45):
his summary phrase is the earth grants. And for me as a biblical reader,
as a Christian, as a biblicalscholar who studies a text for a
living, my experience is the textgrants if we persevere with it in the
end. And sometimes I get resolution. Often I get resolution when I'm thinking
(18:06):
about the text in conversation with peoplefrom quite a different culture from mine,
maybe a different life experience, maybea different ethnic culture, maybe a communal
culture for example, or maybe justwhen I just wait for the right scholarship
to come out that has found thatancient nor Eastern texts that this difficult Old
Testament text is dialoguing with but wedidn't realize it, and all of a
(18:29):
sudden it starts to make sense,and I say, oh, right,
that's the invitation to life in thattext. That's what that text is doing.
But if I tried to close theargument and come to a quick conclusion
when I had the problem, youknow, I mean, yes, absolutely,
yeah, yeah, I've had thatexperience many times. A problem passage
and when I was a young Christian, they used to bother me. It
(18:51):
give me that sort of pain inthe head, you know. Yeah.
But then a guy called Brian Austin, who run a Christian bookstore I've mentioned
many times on the program, saidto me, well, what he often
did was to kind of mentally putdifficult passages up on the shelf for later
consideration, he said, and veryoften he'd be able to bring those down,
perhaps even years later, and findthat there has been an answer through
(19:12):
as you say, the experiences thathe's had and the reading that he's done,
et cetera. That's beautiful. You'vehad that experience. An example for
me even yeah, as I wasa pastor, was God's command to Abraham
to sacrifice Isaac. I mean,I don't think as anyone who hasn't been
puzzled by that one, you know, in the Genesis. It took me
years. I just had to sitwith it and trust. And one day
(19:33):
I noticed the compassion in the narrator'svoice, and that was the beginning of
understanding that he wasn't the narrator's viewthat this was good. Yes, I
read tru you Skoll. The articlecame out that showed how in ancient Near
Eastern treaties that I've already discovered,sometimes a subordinated king would have to promise
pledge the death of his son.Oh, interesting, as a like a
(19:56):
loyalty O. Now they didn't doit, but it was like a literary
form that it was a way ofindicating loyalty. And that made me think.
It didn't add to all my problems, but it helped me understand what
that literary text was doing. Youknow, it is a text in the
end, and it's a text relatingto other texts, and yes, that's
just an example of journey with thetext. At the time. I'd always
(20:17):
been important to met, of course, that that sacrifice does not actually happen.
Absolutely. It's a wonderful piece ofwriting, and it goes right to
the tip of the implement, youknow, in a very very dramatic way,
and then doesn't happen because God providesan alternative. But you're leading up,
aren't you, in a step bystep tension growing right up to that
point. And then it's as ifI don't know whether I'm reading it wrongly,
(20:38):
but I've always read it in thatsense of yes, but God never
intended this at all. It wasa maximum test of Abraham's obedience, and
that's what it's about, perhaps eventhe end spelling the end of human sacrifice
in the world. You know that'sa good lens. Yeah, a lens
exactly. Yeah, sure, yeah. And I think I mean in that
chapter the text grants it's an invitation. The reason I start the whole book
(21:02):
with it is I do think weneed a fresh am in Yunich. I
think there's four key questions I addressedin that chapter that I think that the
church has to be clear on whatis the gospel, what is the biblical
story, what is the nature ofwitness, and what is biblical ethics?
And you know, we need abig gospel that shows that God in Christ
is recovering the divine purpose of thecreation through the death and resurrection of Jesus.
(21:22):
But this beautiful, big lens gospel. And then when it comes to
ethics, I think at the centerof biblical ethics, right at the heart
of the Biblical story is what Icall a biblical ethic of kinship, and
the biblical ethic of kinship is bringingthe weakest among us into the center.
And it is this connection between allhumanity as family as we discovery in Genesis
(21:42):
chapter nine and many other texts.So it's biblical ethic of kinship. We
need to we need to get tothe heart of biblical ethics. So the
text Grants begins the book by saying, no, this story really is beautiful,
and to live into this story isa call to life. You talk
about a lot of reductionisms in thechurch, So you're talking about certain kinds
(22:07):
of churches which say, oh,I don't know, We've got the Bible's
overall narrative all worked out, thisis it. We've got the as you
say, the Bible's teaching about ethics, this is it. This is the
gospel. It's just this. Itmight not have the wider implications you're arguing
for in the book. What arethese reductionisms specifically? Sure, I'm not
(22:27):
sure for yourself. Word, Itry not to be too negative in the
book. I try and just createa positive vision. But I don't mind
the question at all. So certainlywe can have an you know, in
some pockets with the church less andless so as another worldly understanding of the
future. So the future if theworld is that the world will burn and
we'll all be kind of taken upinto kind of an other world the existence
(22:51):
or even more nuanced that the newCreation isn't this world. I think it's
really important to understand that in theBiblical story there a new creation, is
this world renewed. God hasn't givenThere's not a person in the Bible properly
understood that would make us think thatthe future isn't about this world. The
Bible is about this world, andit's about God coming here and renewing these
rivers and these cities and these peoplegroups, even renewing these cities and these
(23:17):
people groups and these places in lightof the histories that well, we're aware
of and that God's aware. That'sinteresting. None of that's a rays that's
really important because then we really realizethat life in this world matters to God.
Yeah. Absolutely, But you're heretalking about this world being transformed into
an eternal state, are you.You're not talking about the I don't know,
(23:38):
humans cooperating with God to bring abouta better world that is not an
eternal world. You're not talking alongthose lines. I mean, that's an
interesting phrase. The tonal world.We're sort of minutes a tonal world now
really isn't it in a way?You know, so like, are you
anticipating are you anticipating the resurrection whereour bodies will be resurrected? Oh?
Of course, right, yeah,so certainly we're waiting for Christ to return
(24:00):
and renew all things. Okay,yeah, absolutely, But there's a continuity.
Would you see a parallel between theresurrection of the believer and the kind
of resurrection of the cosmos into anew state? Would you see a parallel?
There is that helpful? Yeah,certainly. I mean, I think
we're to understand from one Quentin's fifteen, which is the chapter Paul's most significant
(24:22):
chapter on the resurrection, that theFather rose Christ from the dead as the
first route of this world renewed,which includes new bodies for God's people,
but that in Christ's resurrected body wesee the first example of that material reality
of a renewed world which is sowonderful that we will participate in, and
(24:42):
that the creation itself will be caughtup in, liberated from its bondage to
decay or something like that, isn'tit Romans eight? Yeah? Yeah,
this is in connection with this,you say that therefore God values what is
happening in this world now, includingof course art. God values esthetics,
(25:03):
and you say God values my musicsimply because God values esthetics and art making.
But you go further. You goon to say that it's important to
actually do art well within the church. I think you even talk in terms
of having an artist in residence orsomething within your church community. That was
(25:25):
an amazing idea, right, Yeah, I think so. I think beauty
is a glimpse of God. Ironically, in my own journey, even as
an artist theologian, I've been reallyslow to recognize it, even as I
understood this world matters to God andart making matters to God. I could
say it, but honestly, Julian, it's still a personal journey to really
(25:45):
believe it as a musician and toreally trust, for example, as a
musician that my music is expressing somethingof the beauty of God, of the
glory of the Creator. Yeah.In the chapter on beauty, I'm saying
that we need to attend to beautyin all we do as churches. Certainly
we need to attend to art makingand to artists. But we can learn
(26:10):
from artists and from our own creativeintuition that we all have to get creative
in everything we do together as achurch. What about being artists, getting
creative in the way we do housing, for example, in gentrified neighborhoods like
mine. What if we get creativein the way that we eat, sourcing
from local farmers. What if weget creative in the way that we worship,
(26:33):
writing homegrown music that really emerges fromthe story of our community, not
the story from Hillsong, Australia.What relates? Yeah, So to be
artists, to attend to aesthetics andbeauty, and to value that because beauty
is a glimpse of God. AndI think it's very important in post Christian
culture that the Church, for thesake of our witness, attends to this.
(26:56):
Yeah. Absolutely. I wanted tobring a quote to you that you're
quoting somebody I think who wrote onTwitter, and I thought this is a
very important quote. Let me justread it. Why do people leave a
community? Many reasons, but onethat I've recently gained insight into is that
people leave when they no longer seea vision for or room for their future
(27:18):
self fascinating it who they want towho they want to be, and are
already becoming. And then this personsaid true for me with cities jobs recently.
Church? Is that a central thingof what you're doing with this book
to provide a possibility of vision forpeople who are feeling like that that church
is becoming increasingly irrelevant to who theywant to be, right, I mean,
(27:42):
it's fascinating. It's a fascinating quote, isn't it that they don't find
in the church the kind of personthey're becoming. I mean I think,
yes, I quote that quote verypositively in the book. Well more curiously.
I mean, there's obviously a certainWestern kind of individualism there, and
we can name that, and there'sthings that you might want to sit with
(28:03):
slightly critically, but you know that'snot the point. The point is here's
a good person who are seeking,who are seeking beauty and good and justice
and compassion and I'm assuming the bestin the quote, right, Yeah,
And somehow in the church they findsomething banal, they find something that that
isn't what they're reaching for in termsof love and compassion and community and significance.
(28:26):
You know, of course that youknow, you could you could somehow
turn that quote to sound you couldread it to be narcissistic, or you
could read it to be self obsessed, but that's not the point. I
think many of my friends are seekingsomething beautiful for their lives, seeking something
compassionate and just connected to place,connected to art. And the thing is
this is all about the Biblical story. All of this that I've just described
(28:49):
place, art, beauty, justiceis part of the Biblical story. And
sometimes somehow the church can become banal. Absolutely, you know, it can
be like I kind of grew upwith Jehovahjyra, you know, my provider,
you know. I mean, I'mjust kind of thinking off the top
(29:11):
of my head. You're Julian,but I'm just trying to think, you
know, what is this banalas thatwe can bring to the church, to
the life of the church, whenactually this Biblical story is so rich.
So stay with Jehovah Jira. Imean, I'm just flying. I haven't
played that tune in thirty years,man, but just out of interest,
you know, you know. Andthe point is, you know, where's
(29:59):
the soul? You know, tothink in musical terms or in Black American
music terms, you know, thesoul as they're in our tradition, you
know, the soul as they're inour savior. You know, we just
have to. We have to behuman with the Bible in our hands,
and we have to you know,we have to reflect the soul, you
know, yes, yes, wehave. Another thing is that we have
to be authentic. We have tobe truly ourselves. That's not of course
(30:23):
making room for sinfulness, but thebest of ourselves, but the whole of
ourselves, the whole of the bestof ourselves, if you see what I
mean. And that particular quote reallyjumped out at me because be no surprise
to listeners, I don't feel thatmany of the churches around me reflect who
(30:44):
I am and who I have become. I still find it very difficult to
go back into churches. This isafter the COVID experience for a whole bunch
of reasons. And one of themain reasons for that is because there are
so many things inside my head thatI cannot discuss in a standard Christian community.
(31:06):
I find that very, very difficult. But what I find really interesting
about your book is that you talkabout conversations, and in your church communities
you have incredibly open conversations involving evenquite controversial things. Now this is news
to my ears. You know,music to my ears, all manner of
things can be discussed, emotionally chargedtopics that threaten to split the community.
(31:32):
Now this is astonishing to me.I yearn for this, the ability to
go into fellowship with people and expressthe concerns that I have about all kinds
of things. How do you manageto do that in your community? Oh,
what a beautiful question you have?Well, I think you know it's
I mean, why quickly is twelve? If anyone has a word. You
(31:53):
know, the New Testament Church wasmore diological than we imagine the first Christians.
There was often more than one preacher. My understanding is that was sus
standard practice. And you know,speaking the truth in love in Ephesians and
also speaking the truth in love,he's talking about, you know, issues
(32:14):
that really mattered to him. Butthat text is about having conversations and staying
unified. You know, Paul,when he says speaking the truth in love,
who's speaking about jiu gentile conflicts inEphesians four. This is stuff that
really mattered to Paul. He hadvery strong opinions on it. And yet
he's speaking about postures of humility andgentleness, bearing with one another in love
(32:37):
Ephesians four too, nurturing one anotherin Christ. So I think as churches
we need to learn to talk toone another. The Bible's written to all
of us. We need to learnto have conversations. What does that take.
It takes. It takes Christian leaderswith real emotional health, emotional flexibility.
(32:58):
It takes that kind of growdedness andour identity in Christ as pastors and
as lay leaders, so that wecan name our fears. You know,
some people will fear that something offensivewill be said. Other people will fear
that in the end of the wedgeof a heresy will raise its head.
We could trust one another, andwe have to learn to trust the best
(33:20):
in one another and in post Christiancontexts, which we're in but we're still
learning to be in. I thinkthat flourishing, vibrant churches are going to
be characterized by conversations. I thinkthey're going to have to be because there
are literally millions of people who arefinding themselves on the periphery of I don't
(33:43):
know what could you call this intellectuallife, where they have very deep questions
about all kinds of things that aregoing on in the world and are not
able even to broach those subjects withinChristian communities. I'm speaking from my experience
very much, So I'm just goingto throw out a lot of subjects that
people would reject me even if Italked about any of them. So we're
(34:06):
Lockdown's right? Our COVID vaccine's reallysafe and effective? Can we really trust
the World Health Organization? Is VladimirPutin really another hitler? Or is there
actually more to understand about geopolitics thanwe're often shown? Is what Israel is
doing in Gazo morally defensible? Canwe question the alarmism of climate science?
(34:29):
Is anyone else worried by a cashlesssociety? Is anybody worried about digital ID
or the threat of a social creditsystem? Now? I could add loads
and loads of other questions. Ican tell you there's not one of those
that I could comfortably bring up inany church that I can think of around
here. And yet I am worriedabout a lot of these things. And
(34:50):
I know that hundreds of thousands,millions of other people are as well.
And it seems to me that thechurch is locking a lot of people out
by having a kind of self imposedover to the window. You know,
you must not discuss anything other thanniceness. Right, that's just thinking about
the normal mainstream things, right.Anybody outside that is a conspiracy theorist,
(35:10):
you know, which is the kindof meme of social engineering which locks people
out from engaging with or even engagingwith their own thoughts. How would you
could you even have conversations about anyof those things? For example? Yeah,
I mean I think it's it's wherewe start, you know, I
mean our in our church, thechurches where our past. Do we surround
(35:32):
conversations with the Eucharist? Yes,so we remind ourselves to one body in
Christ, and we don't we strivefor like heartedness not rather like mindedness?
Yes? Yes, what does thatspeak about? That? In our books?
That's right? What does that mean? I was intrigued by that?
What does that mean? What isour center? Our center is Jesus.
Our shared commitment is to being toour shared life in our particular neighborhood,
(35:57):
a shared life of compassion and lovefor one another and for our neighbors.
So we're likehearted in Jesus and inextending Jesus love in Jesus' name. Okay,
but that doesn't mean that we agreeon everything, but we can be
committed to one another into having conversations. We can't exhaust one another. There
(36:17):
obviously has to be a tempo toit, There has to be a measuredness
to it. But that willingness tostay together and have hard conversations, trusting
our like heartedness, trusting the bestin one another. I think that's what
trusts me sure, trusting the bestin one another. So to come back
to my question, could questions likethose come up in that context and be
(36:42):
accepted as something worth talking about withoutpeople rolling their eyes and saying under their
breath, you know, conspiracy theoristblah blah blah. Could you have conversations
like that? Oh? Sure,I mean everything and everything could be talked
about. I mean it's good,you know, in our experience to start
with simple things. Might want tostart by having a conversation about the sermon
topic. For example, yes,you know the breach on Sunday. That's
(37:07):
hard enough, right, right,right? Well absolutely, I've a previous
minister actually had a talking table totry and encourage conversation exactly on that,
right, the subject of the sermon, and it didn't work. People didn't
want to talk about even that.So then we are Yeah, I mean,
I don't know that particular context,but in our experience by you know,
(37:27):
it's a different set of skills towhat past us my age learnt in
seminaries. Seminaries and our pastoral trainingwe need to turn to, I believe,
train in those soft skills, thosehigh relational skills of facilitation, conflict
resolution, those skills that build communityand that show that we value relationship.
(37:50):
You know, the way that Iwas trained in seminary was more those kind
of harder skills of vision finances,those more alpha leader kind of skills.
They're important, but we need adifferent the way that I speak about leadership.
For my booking Provicy Churches, Ihave a chapter called leader Full How
can we How can key leaders likepastors and lay leaders be nourishing leader full
communities? Communities where every person bringstheir best gifts, their best creative imagination
(38:15):
to the table and trusts that theirbest gifts will be received and can contribute.
That's a leader full community, andfor that we need those soft skills
of facilitation, working through conflict andso on and so forth. Yes,
you very interestingly talk about leaders asbeing of all kinds, really of having
all kinds of skills. Perhaps evensome people you wouldn't normally think of as
(38:37):
having leadership skills, but actually they'rejust the right skills for a particular ministry
context. And even you talk aboutpeople who might consider themselves not to be
a leader for life, but justfor a short time, that that's right
for them, God calls them,perhaps to a year or two or something
like that. I must have beenI'd not thought in those terms before.
The one thing I had thought about, perhaps slightly like that, was sometimes
(39:00):
I have this idea that, youknow, there's the gifts of the spirit,
and I sometimes think to myself,you know, maybe it's the little
old lady you know at the backof the church has this astonishing gift of
healing, and it's never tapped into, it's never realized. You know,
maybe God gives that gift to themost unlikely quote unquote to people, not
the thirty five year a year oldwith the sneakers on at the front of
(39:20):
that sort of thing, but perhapsthe most demure person may be amazingly gifted
if only we realize that. SoI like that idea of this leader full
approach, that leaders can be throughoutthe community, and we need to recognize
that need to tap into that.That's right. It's a certain posture that
we use as key leaders, passesand lay leaders up the front that communicates
(39:40):
we're not taking up all the space, given the tone of voice, the
way we kind of posture our bodiesdepending on our height and identity. You
know, I'm a tall white man. I've got to take up less space,
so that it's communicating in the waythat I'm up the front that there's
room for lots of people this roomfor your best ideas and imaginings. That
I'm communic that I'm taking up alittle space here, but everyone's taken up
(40:02):
some space and as welcome to thetable. So it's that posture. Yeap.
What did you mean by coherence?You mentioned that your mother was a
therapist and that she talked a lotabout coherence. News say, I think
that the idea of coherence is animportant lens for speaking about Jesus. What
is that coherence? I presume youdon't just mean making sense when you speak
(40:25):
something it's right, having a goodcase like apologetics. You didn't mean that,
did you. Yeah, that's right. I speak about what I grew
up calling evangelism and what does givingwords to Jesus in our conversations with those
who don't know him look like inpost Christian society? And so I have
a chapter to voter to that,and I use a therapeutic concept of coherence.
(40:45):
So coherence for a therapist, mymother's a therapist, as you mentioned,
means an alignment of what's going onin my heart and what I say.
What's going on therefore, even onmy face, my facial expressions,
and what I say, that I'mfully aligned, fully aligned with the person,
but even more importantly, fully alignedwith myself, so that what I'm
(41:06):
saying comes from a deep and alignedand authentic place as a therapist, and
that's where the healing is. Itis similar to music in a way.
If I may as a musician,I can be coherent and incoherent, and
in any performance I'll usually kind ofmove in and out of both. So,
for example, a coherence means thatthere is that unity between what's going
(41:28):
on in my heart, my mind, and in the sound I'm producing.
You know, it's not, forexample, hyper rational thought out but not
in the heart, but there's thatcoherence. So a coherence will kind of
we'll bring that soul, you know, so when it comes to speaking about
(41:50):
Jesus, it's quite the same thing. I think that when I say something
about Jesus my Savior, that it'snot like a door knocking exercise that I
grew up with, where I knowthat there's these things and I'm trying to
get to say I'm trying to getalmost permission in the conversation to blurt something
out about Jesus. That's how Igrew up in the doorknocky exercises I used
to leave as a young adult.We all did those of a certain age
(42:14):
like that. One is that Igave up smoking. Oh well, because
of the explosion. What was thatwhen Christ came into my heart? Yeah?
Right right, absolutely, Sorry cringe, but Okayherence means I'm genuinely with
the person, and what I sayis, you know, there's an alignment
between what's in my mind what's inmy heart, and then I'm integrated with
(42:37):
who I really am, and soI can speak about Jesus simply as my
Lord or whoever Jesus is to methat day is my Savior. And my
mother. I mentioned my mother becauseshe was amazing at this. My mother
would talk about Jesus. The samewith someone who was a fellow Christian and
someone who wasn't. She would justtalk about Jesus because she was journeying with
(42:58):
Jesus and aware of jesus presence everyday. So in heather she talked about
Jesus, which she did often.It was effortless, It was like breathing,
and it was received that way becauseit was so coherent. There was
no disjunction between her heart and faithor her face her words wow, and
what was going on between the heartsof her and the person she was speaking
with. I think that's a reallyhelpful I find that a very helpful lens.
(43:22):
Yes, yeah, a great placeto be. And you say the
early church kind of helps us withthis because you don't see so much of
them exhorting each other all the timeto go out and evangelize. It just
sort of happens they do that,Adam. What you see more is of
them living authentic lives together in thespirit, with excellent teaching, of course,
but people see how they are andwho they are. Yeah, have
(43:45):
I got you right there? That'swhat you mean. Absolutely. There was
talking about the very earliest church thereas well. Are you talking about the
Book of Acts for example. Yeah, I think the first few Christian centries,
there's a spiritual it was characterized byspiritual power. Yes, that was
shown in this contrast if way ofattending to the weakest, both in the
church and outside of the church,of generosity, of if there was a
(44:06):
plague and everyone fled the city,the Christians would stay. And that was
the spiritual power, of power inmartyrdom, spiritual power in healings. So,
for example, the only First Christianslived in Roman culture tenement buildings like
apartment blocks today. You know,they lived life very approximate to their neighbors.
If a neighbor was sick, perhapsdying, someone in the first Christian
(44:27):
community might say, well, Iknow a healer, and someone from the
church who was gifted in healing wouldcome and pray for the person, and
perhaps that person would recover from theirinfirmity and they would come to know the
Lord Jesus, you know, Andthere was this kind of a spiritual power
in their life that was compelling.Yes, And you feel that it's the
same with compelling music. Yeah.You say in the book that you think
(44:49):
because of this post Christian turn andas the church declines in one sense that
actually God is going to do morepowerful things in the future. Why do
you have that confidence that God isgoing to do that with us? Yeah,
I think as we are forced fromthe center, but even better,
as we relinquish the center, Ilet go of power among ourselves and in
(45:10):
culture and become more dependent on God, that our spiritual power will in a
sense return. You know, maybeeven the miracles will return. You know
that those miracles that characterize the firstChristian center, is it still characterized the
church today, especially in other nonWestern parts of the world. I think
that as we become more marginal andmore dependent, I think that I'm excited.
(45:35):
I'm excited as an old person,as an old man, which I
will be soon enough at age fifteenhour no see the church that our children
will be leading and our grandchildren willbe leading. I'm excited for that church.
Well, that's a fantastic position tohave, because there's so much negativity.
When people are talking about the declinein numbers, etcetera, etcetera.
It can be all very depressing.But if you are that God is in
(46:00):
fact going to do something special inthis new context, that is very very
exciting. Indeed, this is oneof the things, of course, that
I've been praying for in my ownexperience. I'm still looking for some new
expression of church. I still don'tknow what that's going to be. I'm
dipping in and out of the churchcommunity I belong to, but it's still
(46:21):
not right. There's still something notright about it which listeners will know about.
I'm still waiting for that thing,but I still believe God is going
to do. I don't know whatit's going to be. Yeah, thank
you for sharing. One thing youdo talk about quite a bit is colonialism
in the church. But is thisreflecting the situation that you're in particularly right?
(46:42):
Yep, So thank you. There'sa chapter called the Sins of Our
que and I think that for thechurch to be healthy, for the church
to heal, for the church toreceive what Christ wants to give us,
I think we need to fess upto the stories of people's life and that
are part of our story as Westernersand are part of the Church's story,
(47:07):
certainly in the countries that I've livedAustralia, in Canada, there's a colonial
story of displacement. In America,a colonial story of displacement of First Nations
people and enslavement of Black American people, and also the story of the beauty
of the world, your First Nationspeoples and their way of life, and
(47:27):
the resilience and genius of Black Americanpeople who birthed jazz and blues for goodness
sake, and we need to weneed to learn the histories of people and
land in our particular place and shapeour lives appropriately, and shape our liturgy
appropriately in that light, and fosterrelationships that are shaped by repentance and are
(47:51):
conscious of harm that's been caused andthe harm that could be caused. This
is very important for the witness ofGod's people. Yes, and I like
the way that you discussed this inthe book, because you know, so
often we hear about a sort ofsurface repentance, virtue signaling kind of repent.
You know, people taking the kneeas if taking the knee is the
(48:12):
be all and end all, andyou've proved you're not a racist by doing
that, and these large statements aboutapologizing for the past, etc. But
you seem to be concentrating on goingforward, that the learning, becoming involved
with people of different backgrounds, ratherthan concentrating on the past and trying to
look good, etc. That seemsto be a very important way of considering
this. Sure. I mean it'syeah, we're learning, you know,
(48:36):
And I think that's that's the firstposture to humbly learn from particularly people who
have been on the marginalized side ofthe colonial story, to shut up,
you know, and learn and toconfess and then to live well in the
land. You know. There's aFirst Nation's phrase in North America to walk
in a good way on the land. And I think we have a lot
to learn from First Nations communities inNorth America about walking in a good way
(49:00):
way on the land. So Ihaven't lived in the UK, Julia.
The cloudial story obviously in Europe andthe UK was held there as a center
of power for centuries, and I'mcurious about how the church can hold that
story. Yeah, I don't hearvery much about it, you know.
I hear about people apologizing for thepast, the sins of the past,
(49:21):
and I think to myself, well, I can't really apologize for since of
the past. What I can dois learn about them, and learn about
other people and value other people.Those are things that I can do.
It seems to be the most valuableway forward. It's interesting, yeah,
I mean it's certain. I thinkbeyond what we know as Westerns, there's
a lot about generational sin in theOld Testament, you know, so near
my ten and Daniel, these prayersof confession for generational sin. I think,
(49:46):
as Western as we can disenchant theworld and forget that the sins of
our kin, as I call thatchapter, are our sins. I think
that neuroscience is actually a way intothat, the way the generational trauma passes
down, and that could be forthe people on the top of the pile
or the bottom of the pile,and the colonial story. So I think
(50:07):
the colonial story is our story.And I really believe that the trauma we've
experienced and the trauma we've caused impactswho the church is today. Concretely,
it's only about by giving attention tothose stories that we're going to heal if
we say the church isn't as beautifulas it should be, if we show
that, say the church doesn't reflectthe tenderness of Jesus. In my opinion,
(50:29):
in ways, I don't understand thatproblem is rooted in the colonial story
in part, and I want tolearn more about how it is and how
I'm living into that script too today. Right, Yeah, Well, your
book did challenge me in a numberof ways, and that's one of the
ways in which it did, forsure, And it connects again with that
trap Brian Austin, who had agreat influence upon me and right, and
(50:50):
one of the things he's said was, you know, people are not going
to listen to us unless we admitthe faults that have happened in Christianity in
the past. We have to justadmit those, you know, and then
people will open to listen to whatwe have to say. So I think
that is very important, really veryinteresting book. There's so much more we
could talk about. Have a lunitytime. Of course, it got me
thinking a lot about how to doand be church in different ways and ways
(51:14):
that I wouldn't even have thought aboutit actually, And I think I found
the analogical dimension of the book itselfreally really helpful, you know that Jazz
analogy, because it's such a powerfulimage. It invites me to kind of
keep improvising in my own head whileI read your book. Do you know
what I mean about how things couldbe different and yet still the same,
(51:34):
still fundamentally the same, but witha different tune, a different flavor,
because things do have to change.And when you say in the book in
which we're not going back, there'sno way we're going back. There are
difficulties ahead and we have to learnto be the same but different, really
useful image. So, as Isay, quite challenging in some ways.
And I did find myself disagreeing attimes, which is fine. You say
you like disagreements anything. I likedisagreement, but sometimes modifying my position slightly
(52:00):
as I carried on reading. SoI do recommend it. Listeners, please
do read this, especially if you'reit says here in the book, a
passionate pastor, a pastor student,or a lay leader, or anybody else
really, any believer. I doread it. So that is improvising Church
Scripture as the source of harmony,rhythm and Soul by Mark Glanville. And
it's available at Intervarsity Press, whichwe'll find at ibpress dot com. So
(52:22):
thanks very much for your time.Mark, It's been a wonderful conversation,
pleasure speaking to you. Thank you, Julian, And let me say,
as an author, I'm so gratefulthat you read the book with such a
full heart and so closely thank youfor that gift. Oh, thank you
for saying so. Yeah, Ireally enjoyed it. Yes, thank you,
thank you. Good to be withyou. Show Notes for this program
can be found at the Mind RenewedtheMIND Renewed dot com podcast. Music by
(52:45):
the brilliant Anthony rajeacop attribution non commercialshare like poor point Zert International. You
have been listening to me, JulianCharles and my guest Dr Mark Glanville,
and I very much look forward tospeaking to you again in the near future.
The one in Karai
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