TMR 312 : The Appointment (1981/2) (TMR Movie Roundtable)

Episode Transcript
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(00:10):
Hello everybody. Julian Charles here oftheMIND Renewed dot Com. Coming to you
as usual from the depths of theLancashire countryside here in the UK, and
welcome to TMR number three hundred andtwelve for the seventeenth incredible but the seventeenth
of our movie rand tables here atthe podcast in which we are discussing films
and other kinds of productions that havesome degree of relevance, however ten years

(00:35):
that might be in some cases,but some degree of relevance to themes explored
on the Mind Renewed over the lasttwelve years. And today we're going to
be discussing the rather obscure, indeedalmost lost forever it seems, the obscure
psychological stroke supernatural British thriller horror filmcalled The Appointment from nineteen eighty one or

(00:59):
nineteen eighty two, whoever you construe, that starring Edward Woodward and directed by
Lindsey C. Vickers. And todiscuss this unusual and obscure but I think
very good movie, we are joinedonce again by our good friends Frank Johnson
in Gender Fluid California, Mark Campbellin Nets Zero Crayford and Anthony Rotuno in

(01:23):
an I five safe house at onehundred and twenty three Trellis Gardens, Tunbridge,
Kent. Gentlemen, welcome back tothe TMR round Table. Thank you,
thank you very bye. Nice tobe back. Hello. I thought
Anthony and I actually reveal your addressbecause last time you said you were going
to tell people where you really live. So there we are, yes,

(01:46):
h yeah, just outside London.Yeah, yeah, okay, So how
are you all doing? I mean, it feels like a long time since
we all joined together in conversation.Obviously, Anthony and I spoke about Dr
Strangelove a few weeks ago, butthere's to a bit of catching up.
So Frank, I hope that youhave fully recovered now from your car accident
that you had you paid your chiropracticeby now, have you. Yeah,

(02:10):
I was going to mention, yeah, the chiropractor is being taken care of
him, still getting treated here andthere for different things. Just getting old,
I guess, But yeah, thechiropractor a bit, and the car
accident's more or less okay, andthen kind of just keeping busy, I
guess. Yeah, And you sentme a couple of weeks ago video of
your cats about it was eating somefood out of a huge bag and you

(02:38):
said that it was I don't know. You said something like it's periodically vicious,
but it didn't look at all viciousto me because he was eating right.
Yeah, so whenever I buy anew bag of food, he will
prefer not to touch the old foodbecause he wants the new food. And
so he'll rub on the new foodand like try to get me to open
it, and when I pour itinto the container, he'll eat it like

(02:59):
the freshest stuff before going to hisball. So he's definitely very competitive with
me too, and a lot ofdifferent ways. Yeah. What sets him
off for his vicious side, Well, pretty much whenever I touch him.
My parents had a cat like that. Actually, yeah, it didn't want
me anywhere near it. It spatat me all the time. It was
most unpleasant. Yeah. Yeah,Okay, he thinks I'm competing with him

(03:23):
male to male, you know,so any time if I'm in his territory,
he doesn't really like it. Soat least it's not it's not a
dog. It's not a black dog, which of course is going to be
a feature of this conversation. Yeah. Good, speak to you again,
Frank Mark. Of course now youare married again, aren't you, which
is extraordinary. I am. Yeah. And your your name has changed,

(03:44):
doesn't it. Well, we changedour names to still Mark, Yes,
still Mark, to Campbell hyphen aHandlan. Sarah's sur name is a Handland.
We sort of you know, that'sthat the wedding back. I don't
think either of us have got aroundto doing anything official about that. Facebook
is the only thing. We've changedthe name because it's all a hassle.
It's expensive in a hassle to change. So I'm still Mark Campbell. You're

(04:06):
still Mark Campbell. Yeah, itsounds very aristocratic, you know, having
double barreled campbello handling. It doessound good, isn't it. It does?
Actually, Yeah, it's kind ofa fit in with Oscar who our
son's name. He was called OscarCampbell Handen from when he was born.
Sounds like he'll end up in Parliamentor something like that with a name like
that, I think, Yeah,he's got a hair like Boris Johnson's.

(04:29):
Lord Anthony's work still going well,Yeah, loads of life coaching clients and
stuff. No, not too many. I've still got still getting little bits
of work. From ever, I'mjust firmly in the gig economy. My
non working life seems to be justdominated by podcasting. I'm still holding three

(04:49):
podcasts, and I keep meaning tostop doing them, and sometimes it is
something that I feel I should bedoing instead. I'm not sure where that
thing is. But you can't giveup an audience, can you? If
you've worked so hard to get anaudience? Yeah? Three audience. There
is a certain sense of responsibility,isn't there for sure? Yes? Yeah,

(05:10):
I've got over the ego thing ofjust people telling me how great I
am. You know, it getsbored after a while, But I just
keep thinking of Yeah, I keepthreatening to quit that. John Lennon one
is crazy because I'm on about I'vedone about one hundred and ten episodes.
Yeah, and I actually only I'veonly there's about three of his albums I've
never reviewed, and he only madeabout six. Is there really that much

(05:32):
to say about? Is there thatmuch to say about one man? Well?
There is, But I kind ofbranch off. So I would do
like John Lennon in nineteen sixty eight, and I'll do a big show all
about ninety sixty eight, right beforeI even bring in John Lennon and the
Beatles. But it's amazing you cankeep these things going. Wow. Three
podcasts, But mention his appearance onDoctor Who. Oh really, no,

(05:53):
do they play some Beatles music?Yeah? They played a track of Beatles
was an episode of Doctor Who,and then subsequently the I think I don't
know it's a BBC program, Andsubsequently they wipe the actual the show where
the Beatles on, So that clipis all that remains. All right,
Oh wow, which doctor was thatat the time? William Hartnell sixties?
William the first one, right ofcourse? Yeah? Yeah, Well year

(06:15):
did dr start? Mark? Isit sixty three three? Eighteen sixty three?
Yeah, eighty sixty three, yeah, so this was sixty five.
I think this episode anyway, Ithink people will be pleased to know that
we're not actually talking about Doctor Whoin great detail here today. Yeah,
so we're talking about this film TheAppointment. Now. I normally ask you

(06:36):
about what our history is with afilm, etcetera. And I know that
Anthony hadn't seen this before, andFrank, I haven't seen this before.
Mark, you had, But no, this is what I've got myself all
ready to say. Now, MarkI'm sure we saw this one at school,
and then I sent you a WhatsAppmessage and you said, no,
no, we didn't know. Andthis is really weird because I really really

(06:56):
thought that we had seen this backin the nineteen eighties sort of been shortly
after it was made, and Ithought I'd seen it on television and that
we discussed it and the weird carcrash. But not the case. Well,
it's possible that you. I neversaw it then, and I don't
have any recollection of hearing about it. But it's possible that you discussed it
and told me about it, andthen I just forgot the conversation because I

(07:18):
never saw it. So then,looking at the history of how this is
unfolded, although it was shown insome sort of festival cinemas, it went
straight to home media. It didn'tgo out on TV and didn't go to
the cinemas either. So there's noway in which I got hold of a
VHS tape or a Beata Max tapeyou professionally made back in those days.

(07:40):
There's absolutely no way. Okay,I thought it did appear on TV sometime,
just like once or something late atnight. It never appeared on Telly,
No, it did. It gotpicked up in the early I think
in the early nineteen nineties by Londonweekend television, so it got broadcast in
a sort of regional sense, andthe director and his wife, Lindsay Vickers,
the director Lindsay Viggers and his wifemissed that particular that they missed that

(08:05):
broadcast, so they never saw iton TV themselves. So I think I
must have seen it in the nineteennineties, perhaps early in the nineteen nineties,
and for some reason, I've gota false memory about that, which
is weird because the film itself isvery much about false memories and weird premonitions
and things interesting. I'm wondering whetherI've been strangely affected by the film itself.
I think that's the only explanation,and it's the explanation. Yeah,

(08:28):
that's right. Yeah. I mean, something I was going to mention later
was just how many films that thisevoked? Was making notes. Yeah,
it seemed weirdly familiar. I'm sureI haven't seen it before, but it's
got a little bit of so manyother films that it felt familiar. Yeah,
I mean I would say, yes, that's what it is, you
know, I feel like I've seenit before, but now I remember some
very specific things about this and actuallyI think it really sticks in my mind

(08:50):
were the three black dogs, andparticularly printed on the side of the lorry
and Edward Woodwood in a red telephonebox phoning his wife. That really stuck
in my mind and I thought,what's that film? You know, I've
been looking for it for years.Surely that's going to come back on TV.
Sometimes I saw that when I was, you know, at school,

(09:11):
but no, no, it musthave been later than that. But yeah,
I think it must have been justshown perhaps once or twice something regional
and perhaps just once actually on regionalTV and that was that. But then
the British Film Institute brought it out, didn't they twenty twenty two. Yeah,
it's a Blu ray with loads ofextras, isn't there even in audio

(09:31):
commentary? That's that's right. Ithink somebody out in the British Film Institute
itself actually found a tape. Ithink it was a one inch tape at
which they could take a master fromand you can actually get the Blu ray
from the British Film Institute details ofthat. So that shot dot BFI dot
org dot UK. So it's aBlu ray and I'm going to say in

(09:52):
passing before we get onto this thatI'm going to say thank you to the
British Film Institute for providing us witha digital screening so that all four of
us can actually I could watch thisfor today's discussion, So thanks very much
for doing that. So, yeah, it was pretty much lost except for
you know a few people who hadthe vhs in their loft and things amazing,
I mean, I guess, yeah, the actual film presumably is lost

(10:13):
in a sense of the raw material, because as you say, it's a
transmission tape, isn't it. Ithink I think so. Yeah, So
it's not quied up to the filmquality that you might expect. It's still
pretty good. It's fine, isn'tit. Actually it is fine? Yes,
yes, I mean I did thinkwhy put it on Blu Ray?
But then again, what they've triedto do, presume, is to optimize
whatever quality they've got. Yeah.Yeah, and of course they've got lots

(10:35):
of extras on here and things,so it is it's good to have all
that as well for the background toit all. Yeah. So yeah,
Frank and Anthony, you've not seenit before at all. Frank, you
must have seen the digital screening.What your initial impressions of this rather strange,
obscure movie from early nineteen eighties inthe UK. Yeah, I had

(10:56):
never seen it. I think Ihad told you privately that this was going
to be the Rick Mayle movie Oneby One? Can I just bring everybody
into the secrets. I'm hoping thatwe might review One by One, which
is a sort of I don't know, a cult Truther movie which Rick Mayle
agreed to be part of. I'veactually not seen it yet, or I've

(11:18):
seen enough clips to know that I'ma little wary of it. Yes,
we shall see. We'll see howProbably it's funny because I was expecting that
tone, like whatever tone that movieis, and then it starts in with
this slow, kind of sinister supernaturalthing, and I am I watching the
right movie, and then okay,well we'll see you see how that goes.

(11:41):
But anyway, yes, it wasn'tthat well, Frank, So go
on, what did you think ofthis one? Yeah? And then you
know, as I realized I was, the movie kind of unfolded and it's
like a really what I would considerthe definition of a slow burn. It's
like just very slow, sinister.He really captures atmosphere and kind of tension
very well, especially with the musicin the shots he's making. I thought

(12:03):
that those few instances where there wasdialogue, especially with the daughter, it
was pretty wooden, which I thinkeveryone agrees with absolutely. Yeah, but
yeah, I thought overall the wholething was really well done. I enjoyed
it. Maybe it's because Edward Woodwardwas in it, but I got a
little bit of vibes of like thewicker Man kind of yes, happens,
happen victim, the fact that theend it's so inevitable. There's something inevitable

(12:28):
about it. That's that's what theis. Yes, Yeah, you got
that right, Very similar in toneor atmosphere to me anyways. But yeah,
I really did enjoy it. Yeah. Yeah, And just before we
go to you, Anthony on Matt, I just wanted to say about the
woodenness of this acting at the beginning. I don't want nobody to be put
off by that, because it is. I think one of the things about

(12:48):
Lindsay Vickers, he's actually less interestedin the dialogue than he is in all
the visual aspect of a film.So not letting him off the hook on
that. But this is a massiveimprovement and a massive stride forward from the
previous film that he made, whereI think he wasn't at all interested in
the dialogue. It was all aboutthe visual aspects. But I think he's

(13:11):
learned a huge amount from that previousfilm, which was called The Lake.
We'll talk about that in a bit. So you know, he's made this
tremendous leap. I know there's alot about this film, but I think's
absolutely fantastic actually, and I'm justthinking it's a shame he didn't make more
films after this, because if hecould leap from The Lake to this one
with so much development in about twoor three years, you know what would

(13:33):
he have become. And I thinkhe could have been a household name.
But that's the way the cookie grumbledanyway. So Anthony, Yes, got
your impressions. Yeah, So whenyou tell me about this film, I
thought just a bit pre reading upwithout you know, finding out too much.
So I knew there was going tobe a lot in it, and
I decided to watch it twice.So I watched it about ten days ago.

(13:54):
I didn't enjoy that much because Icouldn't get past that kind of wooden
acting and everything. Yeah, andthen I watched it again with the kind
of podcast a hat on, andI just really enjoyed it because there's so
many details and symbolism. Yes,the weird thing that crossed my mind was
that funny voiceover that completely disappears.And you know what, I was thinking,
this won't mean much to Frank,but Mark and Julian Crime watch the

(14:16):
UK right, Yes to hold sheused to give me nightmares when I was
a child. It was that policefound the body and the girl was known
to be It was that kind ofthing, that funny voice And then I
was like, what happened to thisvoiceover? Yes? And then I suddenly
the second time I watched it,I thought the wooden acting. I suddenly

(14:37):
thought, no, it's not wooden, it's naturalistic. I kind of gave
it a pass. Okay, Yeah, is just so good at that.
You know, he's not really doingany great deal, is he. He's
just so good at that, youknow, absolutely? Yeah? Good good?
Yeah. Well, well, cometo the individual actors in a few
minutes. Very good. Okay,So I'm going to give a plot summary

(14:58):
here and and as usual, itwon't be short, but I think this
time it's really going to be necessarybecause very few people will have seen this
particular film, and anyway, it'ssensible to give listeners a good idea what
it's about before we launch into ourdiscussion. So here we go. The
film starts with a prologue set threeyears before the main action, in which

(15:20):
we see a twelve year old girlcarrying a violin case walking home from school
through some woods after orchestra practice,accompanied by the monotonous sound ferrari as that
is not for hers of a narratedpolice report in which her strange soon to
transpire abduction is noted. As shewalks along the tree lined pathway, she

(15:43):
hears childish giggles and her name Sandybeing called seemingly from the bushes. Increasingly
scared, she walks on, butis suddenly snatched away into the greenery by
an unseen force at great speed,so fast that her body bends like a
rag doll in the process, leavingonly her crumpled violin on the ground,

(16:06):
which is menacingly pulled into the bushesafter her. Fast forward three years,
we see a rather posh school.We hear an unusually competent school orchestra and
an even more unusually talented violin soloist, who we learn is the teenage Joanne
Fowler played by Samantha Wayson. Wesoon see walking home after orchestra practice along

(16:26):
the very same woodland pathway that openedthe film. Here, Joanne stops to
talk affectionately to something we don't seeon the other side of some iron railings
that we'll put there to stop childrenusing that pathway. After that strange and
disturbing disappearance, presently we meet IanFowler, Joanne's father, played by Edward

(16:48):
Woodwood, who is a successful middleaged company director of an engineering firm who
lives in a leafy, upper middleclass suburb in a large detached house with
his wife, Diana played by JaneMerrow, and their daughter to Joanne.
Ian is in the process of hiringa car, a rather nice one for
nineteen eighty a Ford Grenada. Mygrandfather had one of those, because his
own car is currently at the garagebeing serviced, and he really needs transport

(17:11):
because he's been unexpectedly called away foran emergency meeting at work, which causes
all the trouble because now he won'tbe able to attend Joanne's all important violin
recital at the school concert, verybad news that upsets Joanne inordinately. After
all, she's devoted to her daddy. Daddy must be out her concert.

(17:36):
Indeed, she idolizes him, almostto the point of excluding all other conscious
beings from her life, except perhapsfor her mother and the three rather sinister
rot Vilers that she has formed astrange attachment to in the park and who
increasingly seems to join Joanne in asubsequent supernatural, murderous persecution of her father
for missing that concert. Execution getsunderway with a series of nightmares. Ian

(18:03):
and Diana variously dream about the threerot Vilas entering the house at night,
even though the doors are locked,and variously dream about a remote mountain road
and a fatal car accident in whichIan is involved and in which the dogs
wilso strangely play their part. Butputting these odd nocturnal disturbances aside, Ian
sets off on his journey in themorning. After all, he's a sensible

(18:26):
man. There's the job to bedone, and dreams are just dreams,
aren't they? Or are they?Diana is not so sure, especially when
Ian later phones her from a remotetelephone box in the countryside to report on
his journey so far, and hintsat some of what he had dreamt during
the night. Eerily some of itmatched Diana's dreams, so ever so.

(18:51):
Slightly Embarrassed by the superstition it mightimply, she prepares to share her concerns
with him over the phone. IsIan going to be involved in a car
accident? Was that not just adream? Was that a premonition? But
before she can say her piece,the money runs out, and Ian,
of course, can't get any othercoins into the slot. In the confusion,
Ian drops his watch, a keepsakethat Joanne had lovingly given him sometime

(19:12):
before, a seemingly trivial mishap thatturns out to precipitate a series of fateful
events. Realizing that he's left hiswatch at the phone box, Ian turns
back to fetch it. A lorrythat's been following him and upon which is
painted an image of the three rotVilers meets him at great speed on a
bend in the road in a mountainousregion. Simultaneously, in his mind's eye

(19:37):
or in reality, we don't know, a barking rot Viler appears on his
windscreen and he loses control of thecar, scraping along the rocky verge of
the road, tires blowing out itemsfrom inside the car being ejected through the
windows, until the car itself hitsthe side of the road, and then
mysteriously, so unnaturally lifts slowly,as if pushed upward by an invisible hand,

(20:00):
to purchase upright upon its nose onthe edge of the precipice for several
seconds, only then to be pushedagain invisibly over the edge, with Ian
inside, the car now upside downand caught in the trees below. Ian
tries to extricate himself from his positionof torment, but to no avail as
he releases his strangling seat belt tothe car plunges and the appointment with fate

(20:25):
is complete. Finally we see Joanneperfectly at peace in the park, gently
humming to her three only friends,the rot Vilers of the end, And
then you go to bed and can'tsleep. All right, So I'm just
going to give a few basic thingsabout the film, and then I'll ask
you all a question. So,the director and the writer of the screenplay

(20:48):
and the original story is Lindsay CeVickers, and there are three producers,
Tom Sachs, Claude Hudson and KenJulian. And it turns out there was
some ill feeling amongst the production teamwhich left a bit of a sour taste
in Lindzyvicker's mouth, and that partlyexplains why he didn't go on to make
more films. So that's a shameto know about that. The music was

(21:08):
written by Trevor Jones, who happensto be the composer for the music of
Thirteen Days, which we did alittle while back. Yeah, I don't
think this is quite such a strongscore as it was for Thirteen Days,
but then you know, as muchearlier in his career. I still think
it's very good and I s orchestralwriting that's very plausible for a school orchestra
which fits this. It was producedby First Principal Film Productions Limited, which

(21:30):
was formed by the producers and thedirector, and it was financed, would
you believe, by the National CoalBoard Pension Fund. Amazed to find out
that, and it was to bejust one film of a series of films
that British TV was interested in,and it was going to be called this
series of films TV films is goingto be called a step in the wrong

(21:52):
direction. So this man Ian takesa step in the wrong direction, and
all these films are going to followa similar sort of theme. But it
didn't happen. Unfortunately, there weregoing to be thirteen of these films and
it didn't happen. Say it waslost and then British Film Institute resurrected it
for us. So my question toyou, chaps, I think it might

(22:15):
be helpful to get the discussion goingif we could sort of pin down what
the film is essentially about. Let'sput it this way. It's all what
sort of themes it might be dealingwith. So I don't know if you
want to go first, but thisis the question. So if you had
just a few sentences, just tellsomebody I've never seen this before, what
the essence of the film is.What kinds of things would you say to

(22:37):
them? Yeah, I think itgoes with the sort of the Omen style
of Possessed Child gen Yeah, thedogs just straight out of the Omen,
isn't it really? Yeah? Andalso I suppose fate it turns out that
actually one of the dogs was actuallythe same dog as in the Omen How
about that condor? His name wasatYeah, yeah, yeah, it's very

(23:03):
good. Act Lindsay Vickers wanted adog that could act. Yeah, literally,
I wanted a dog that could act. So it's given the same dog.
I think the weird relationship to thefather and the daughter's worth exploring.
I'm not sure I got the impressionthat she's supposed to be some sort of
not exactly a sabb On but veryhighly strung prodigy. Is it just me?

(23:26):
Always there a subtext of incest there. I mean one of the dreams
when he's waiting, but when he'swaiting outside, the door goes on for
a long time. He sort ofdoes he go in, and she's lying
on the bed sort of wanting himto come in. I don't quite know
where that was going. It goeson for a long time time, doesn't
it does. Actually, that's oneof my favorite scenes actually, but just
because of the way it's handled.But oh sure, and you don't know,

(23:47):
it's kind of this weird, slightlysexual, slightly menacing as well.
There's sort of electricity in the airalmost in that scene. Absolutely, and
nobody's doing anything apart from just acting. The socks off. Yeah, it
is extraordinary. Does to mention thedream where it's well is kind of caressing
his neck and it turns into thedaughter. Oh yeah, yeah, that's
my favorite of this. Actually thatmakes the hairs on the back of my

(24:07):
next fane, and then that onedoes. I don't know, there's something
about that, but it's really effective, hugely effective. I got the impression
it was about control. She wascontrolling him, toying with him. Essentially,
he was sort of a control She'sat the center of everything of the
family, and you know, shehas this power over these dogs somehow,
and it's just kind of like ateenage if you believe in the idea of

(24:29):
teenagers having sometimes latent psychicabilities whatever.It's just oh, sure what to do
with it? But it's controlling otherpeople. But it also is true with
the powers you've got in some waysthat the father is partly responsible for this,
isn't he, Because he's very muchI mean, he's a control freek
as well. He's got everything sortedand he wants her to he wants her
to remain the girl. He doesn'trecognize the fact that she's growing up and

(24:49):
she's a good little girl. Dooas you're told, and you know she
has to perform to be successful.You know, you're doing very well at
school and all this, and hekind of doesn't relate to her as she
is. He relates to her ashe wants her to be, and she
resents that. And I think maybethe clearly sexual fantasy that she sort of
imposes upon him in her adolescence.Yeah, in the way that he treats

(25:11):
her and doesn't understand that triggers whateverpsychic power or connection that she has is
triggered by that disappointment. I think. So it's not like it's she's a
nasty piece of work. I thinkLizzibecker says she's a nasty piece of work.
But it's not like it's just her. He's partly responsible for bringing this
about it, I think. Yeah, I wonder if they could have made
more of, perhaps some the rivalrybetween the wife and the daughter, because

(25:33):
it didn't really get that sense.No, that's true. That would be
an interesting thing, wouldn't it,because they're both sort of vying for his
affection in a way. Yeah,the way you have that in families.
You know, there's always jealousy andenvy, and families you're right, Yeah,
absolutely there was. There was verylittle evidence of any relationship between those
two in the film, was there. There wasn't really much tension between the
daughter and the mother. I thinkthey could have done could have put a

(25:56):
bit of that in. Yes,yeah, I interesting. Do you think
the woodedness of the acting was almostintentional? Because I think even Edward Woodwood
he's a great actor, but theway he delivers his lines are a bit
wooden as well. I think that'sintentional. I think so, I think
because that's all part of his easeand uptight sort of individual, isn't he.

(26:17):
I think it went to the dreamlikequality of the movie a little bit,
like in part to Yeah, whenyou're dreaming, like, people don't
always talk normal, you know,that always is different or weird, you
know, And like I think it'sone of the ways you can convey like
this other worldliness that you know,kind of a suggestive of a dream.
Yeah, maybe, because there aresome points in the movie where you don't

(26:38):
know whether it's a dream or not, do you which which is quite interesting.
Okay, let's talk about the individualactors then. So we said a
little bit about Edward wood Wood,somebody we so, I know, Mark,
we used to talk about Edward woodWard because we used to see how
many Woods we could get into asentence. Edward Woodward would, I'm sure
who would do this part? EdwardWoodward would, I'm sure he would do

(26:59):
this part. So the English actorand singer actually have his album of songs,
Mark, I do. It's inthe man cave next to me here
as I'm talking to you. Yes, is it actually called Edward wood Would
sing? It's called the Edward woodWould Album. Yes, So it's Edward
Woodwood And there's a whole list ofsongs he sings. And let's be honest,

(27:22):
I think he's a better actor thana singer. Right. He's not
a bad singer, though, ishe's not? He sings more thing.
It's broken win mills of your mind. That's good. It's kind of like
very sort of you know, middleof their oad Radio two kind of stuff.
It's okay. He could see right, Yeah, he could see an
who knows how much training he hadto sing those songs? Yeah he can

(27:42):
sing. Yeah, he could bein an operatic society. Couldn't he be
a good principal part in operatic society? Yeah? Sure, It's interesting you
described him as uptight the character,because that's what in The Wickerman, this
really good thing where if you rememberthat film, his police uniform is too
tight. They gave got polic filmthat's too small, oh did they?

(28:02):
Yeah, a couple of sizes toosmall because it would look tight on him,
which would make him look more uptight. Yeah. Well, I know
him from The Wicked Man, andI know him in Hot Fuzz because that
was based on The Wicked Man,that comedy film. It was nice that
he was in that. That wasbrilliant. And I think I saw some
of the Equal Liizer series back inthe eighties or something, but that's pretty
much all I know him from.Anybody seen anything more? No, I

(28:23):
haven't. He's so familiar though,hasn't he. I've probably seen The Widow
Man, but twenty times Yess.That's really one of my big favorites.
So yeah, have you seen anythingelse? Mark Frank? Yeah, there
was a series called nineteen ninety whichcame out in nineteen seventy seven. I
never saw at the time, butI did have it on DVD for a

(28:44):
while, and he's in that andit's sort of a futuristic political drama TV
series in which he basically plays ashe plays in his other films, written
fairly up to sort of a spiderworking for two different sides. And I
did watch the first series, andit's just one of those things that you
just everyone talks as they do inthe seventy and clipped sort of phrases that
nobody ever talks like real people.And after sort of a whole seriously,
I thought, I'm just bored withit basically, but he carried that for

(29:07):
two series. He was very youknow, he was good in it,
a good character actors in it andKllen he was in Kllen as well as
an a TV series. Have slightmemories, yes, memories of that.
Yes, yes, he seems likehe's one of those actors who is a
sort of sure pair of hands,isn't He does a really good professional job.
You know, if you want,let's ask him, he'll do it,
and he'll take save that sort ofthing. Yeah, but I felt

(29:30):
that he was yeah, yeah,that's right. I felt like he was
the only member of the cast whobreathed sort of believability into the parts.
Really, because I suspect, youknow, all these like his little facial
expressions and the timing, you know, where he would hesitate within a sentence
and stutter slightly and all this sortof thing. I suspect that was his,
you know, that's the way hedid it to bring life to the

(29:51):
script. I mean, you cannever say, can you, but I
suspect so, because he's shone inthat sense. I thought he brought a
realism to it and wasn't the necessarilywith the other characters. One of the
analysis I read compared the way hetaught the same way that Jack Torrance talks
in the Signing at the beginning.If he watched the signing when he's being

(30:12):
interviewed, Jack Nicholson's doing wooden aswell. He's saying everything in a slightly
wooden way. The emotion. Thatwas interesting. Yeah, and this is
only a year after the Shining,wasn't it. Well, this was after
the Shining, all right, Yes, just after a year. There are
a number of similarities, actually,aren't there. Yeah? Definitely. I

(30:33):
like the way that Woodward actually dida lot of the filming, you know,
with the car sequence as well.Yeah, not all of it.
There was a stump man, buthe did as much as he could.
Although he apparently wasn't too well atthe time, but you know, he's
hanging upside down and that sort ofthing. Yeah, so good for him
being a good sport to do that. Do we think this is a film
that basically is leading up to thesequence of the car? And without the

(30:56):
sequence of the car, we wouldn'tbe talking about this film? Is it
film primarily of build up to oneamazing sequence plus the beginning, plus the
beginning as well, okay, plusthe beginning, I agreed. Can I
answer that question? Can I answerthat? Yeah, that's exactly what I
thought. I thought this is allabout leading up to that weird car perched
on its nose on the edge ofthe cliff. I thought, yeah,

(31:18):
it's all leading up to that.And then then I listened to the interview.
It is amazing listen to that interviewwith Lindsay Vickers and he explicitly denies
that. He says, no way, that's not what it would No.
He says, if you pay attentionto this is a bit of a challenge
to me, you know, ifyou pay attention to all the detail that
I put in, all the slowworking up to that point, it's not

(31:40):
just about that there's so much nuancein there to pay attention to. You
need to slow down in your perceptionof the movie throughout. And I thought,
well, the next time I goto watch this, I will do
that. I'll slow down and tryand pick up as many clues as I
could. And then I perceived thewhole movie more like putting into place of
a jigsaw piece by piece, eventuallyyou get to the end. And that

(32:00):
actually made sense. I agree withhim. I think he hasn't just thought,
oh, I've got this idea forthe end, how can I sort
of pad it out leading up tothat point? So I think I don't
think it is that it's the mostdramatic point is what sticks in your memory.
But actually the huge amount of detailbefore that, and the beginning,
which was this strange thing of adifferent girl, a different violinist, walking

(32:22):
through the woods and she gets weirdlyabducted in a very dramatic sudden ways.
She's pulled away from the pathway insuch a way that she becomes like a
rag doll. It's very disturbing.This girl, you know, she's got
nothing to do do with it,and she happens to be the previous lead
in the orchestra at the school threeyears earlier, and she's she's missing,

(32:43):
She's gone because of this weird abduction, supernatural abduction. This had this had
nothing to do with the original ideaof the film. They realized that they
were going to get this into theparticularly the American TV market, they needed
to have something for the first setof adverts to get people's attention, hope

(33:04):
exactly. So Vickers said, well, let's just do something off the cuff.
So they just had this one prettymuch unscripted, and so it doesn't
really fit with the rest of thefilm. I didn't realize though you're saying
she was the lead violinist. Ithink so. So the daughter has now
got her job. Now that suddenlymakes some sense, doesn't it. Well,
now that I think that's the case, that's how it makes sense to

(33:24):
me. But I must admit thatVickers didn't say that in the interview.
But that's what makes sense to me. That quite three years earlier, she's
her jealousy, her supernatural jealousy,gets rid of her competition so that she
can shine. I don't know,but that's how it makes sense to me.
As regards all the stuff that leadsup to the accident. I think
I would feel like that if Icould make sense of everything that happened,

(33:45):
but I can't. Do You rememberthe bit where he gets a coffee and
he's reading the paper. Yeah,I still can't even remember it properly.
Is there some roadworks going on?It's really loud, that's right. What
is that? Are we supposed towork there? It's service station, is
not on the motorway or something.Yeah, but he picks up the noise
very loud, doesn't he Yeah,it's because so much of this film has

(34:07):
to do with you, you knowthat, not just the imagery, but
also the sound as well. Sohe had dreamt that he was going to
have an accident, or well,he didn't know it was going to be
an accident, but he dreamt aboutan accident that he was involved in.
And the sounds that are in thatdream, which was involves the squealing of
the tires on the road. Hehears that he's sitting down, he's reading

(34:28):
the Guardian, ready to have hiscoffee, walk to the table and he
hears this sort of sound of thetires. Anything I dreamt that, I
dreamt that? And then he looksout the window and he sees these workmen
cutting the curbstones and he thinks,ah ah, that's what that's all that
was. You know, you cansee he's you see, he's not he's
not fully satisfied. You can tellwhat I think is so good about his

(34:51):
acting. You can tell that he'snot actually satisfied. He's still his eyes
are still going yeah, but thisis still not quite the answer. But
it's still not quite the right sound. And how come it fits more a
dream? And it's like he's beinggaslighted by this weird spiritual force that's playing
with him. You know, Ilove that scene. Actually he looks bewildered,
doesn't he for about the last halfan hour. That's his main expression.

(35:13):
What stops? Yeah? His watchstops as well, doesn't it?
And the watch has got inscription?Yeah, he goes that watch that he
loses, He goes back, doesn'tHe does he go back for his watch?
He does? He goes back forit. Yeah. Does the accident
happen And when he's on the wayback to the phone box, I think
so? I think because that wouldmean that that would make a connection,

(35:36):
Yeah, because maybe it wouldn't havehappened if he's carried on. Yes,
maybe yes, the phone box,and then he remembered it and then he's
like, oh, I got togo back and get it, and then
that's when he crashed. But Isuppose you could think that. But also
his car was anyways, because youknow the oil cap had you would have
still crashed if he kept going,maybe depending on how far it was,

(35:57):
but maybe, well, whatever happens, he's going to have a crash.
That's one of the things about thisfilm. It's very fatalistic, isn't he.
You know, there's nothing he cando to escape this one way or
other. He's going over the edgeof that man and that's that. So
the piece fell off the car,didn't it during the night. Yeah,
that the oil pan did. Andthen what I didn't understand they showed his

(36:17):
mechanic like also losing another oil plugfrom another car, and then later on
he gets sucked up into the engineand killed by the car. I don't
understand that. I thought he foundthat piece and it was supposed to be
the piece from the car because whenEdward Woodward is uh turning, it's igniting
that car, isn't it. Yes, that's it. But then yeah,

(36:40):
it's an interesting connection when he startshis car and then the guy in the
motor vehicle place he gets killed bythat car. He's working out, so
it gets sucked into the car.Yeah. If he died when Edward was
starting his car, that's really freaky. Yeah. I think people will pick
up. You know, people havenot seen the film, which the majority

(37:00):
of people will certainly pick up.There's a huge amount of detail and lots
of little question how does that makesense? How does that fit in?
It is fascinating. Actually, youknow, if you see it time and
again, you do pick up moreof these little details and more of these
little questions. So it is it'sa film worth seeing repeatedly for sure.
Just what do we think about?Yeah? Sorry, I just talked about

(37:20):
the mechanic. Did you recognize himbecause he was in Scum? No?
I didn't recognize him. Yeah.Have you ever seen Scum? There was
a TV version and then a filmversion about a bar stool with Ray Winston.
He was the chief screw. Hewas a recognizable face. What about
Jane Merrow, who played the wifeDiana Fowler? Was she a recognizable face?
She seems to have been in alot of things she did a lot

(37:43):
of TV and a few films.I looked at her on Wikipedia on her
filmography. Yeah, she's done alot. I mean I recognize the things
like Danger Man, The Saint,The Prisoner, UFO, The Avengers,
Randall and Hopkirk Deceased and Mission Impossible, six Million Dollar Man, Incredible Hulk.
But presumably she would have been insome of those episodes. Yeah,
loads of stuff, but not reallyfamiliar with her. I think she did

(38:06):
an okay job. Yeah, I'mnot sure if she was intentionally wooden,
then fair enough she came across thewooden as well. She did a bit.
Yeah, it's an underwritten part,isn't it underwritten? Underwritten? Yeah,
I probably. I mean I thinkVickers was in love in a way
with Edward Woods performance, and Ithink everything else was just a little bit,
you know, not quite so importantly. Wod was She sets a function?

(38:28):
Doesn't she? But I mean itcould have been a more more interest
in her character. I think,Yeah, there is a scene, isn't
there in the kitchen where there's abit of development of the relationship. There
doesn't spend a great deal of timeon it, does he They seemed like
a kind of polite couple, don'tthey. Oh yeah, sure, they're
supposed to be a fairly partial Ithink. I think so middle class,
suburban successful. He's a businessman,isn't he middle class? Yeah? Yeah,

(38:52):
there was a sort of politeness totheir relationship. Sure, some affection,
you know, but I thought,I don't know. Sometimes in horror
films, if you call this ahorrble, I think so, if you
call this a horror film, it'sa horror film, but it's not all
about the blood and gore, isit. It's not very much about at
all. Actually, it's more psychologicalhorror film. Yeah. Yeah, But
you often get in those films,you often get quite wooden acting because in

(39:14):
a way, the characters are supposedto be blank slates, that everything things
happened to them. And I didget a bit of that sense, which
wasn't bad that they were all kindof blank slates because they never really got
you know, it wasn't too bad. I got so much out of it
the second time. I really wouldrecommend if anyone seeing this only wants to

(39:36):
go back, you know, you'llget And I would say there is I
agree, there is a weakness interms of the actually as I said before
the dialogue itself, and it wasmassively improved from its previous production. But
there is a weakness in the inthe script, characterization, and perhaps the
direction as well of the actors.I think there is a weakness there.

(39:58):
But when you compare that with strengthof the visual aspect of the film,
the atmospheric aspect of the film,I can forgive him that. You know,
that is where he absolutely shines,and it's worth watching it just for
that. And you don't know.If it turns out that the acting is
more like a blank slate in orderto develop all the atmosphere, well,

(40:20):
then so be it. You know, it's still worth watching for that reason.
I think, Yeah, at themoment when she steps out on the
photo, that was pretty unnerving.Oh the folk she looks at the camera,
I think, or something she justmoves, isn't she Yeah, it's
a picture frame, that's right,and it's daddy and she isn't it?
And then suddenly she just turns herhead. And I don't know how they
do that, because it's like onelong shot, isn't it tracking into the

(40:40):
picture? And then if the picturejust moves, it's really really well done.
It's such a small effect, butit's totally oh gosh, if that
happened. There are loads of thingsin this film where if it happens,
you would absolutely freak you out.And they're tiny little things, aren't they.
Very often it's like, here's normality, here's a completely normal thing,
and suddenly just a tiny little twistand you're freaked out. And they be

(41:06):
yes, and as they fall theymake the same sound as the dog's pause,
which is really strange. The dogswho invade the house quietly in the
middle of the night, well dothey It was it a dream and we
don't know these weird dogs that she'smade friends with. Did she communicate with
the dogs at any point until theend scene, Well, it's implied,
isn't it. Earlier on? Rightat the beginning of the film, she's

(41:28):
speaking to something through this fence blackrailing, which we think has been put
there to stop children going through thatright because of this weird supernatural abduction that
took place that nobody's got an answerto, so they put a fence there.
Was she's because she's weird. Shegoes there and she's talking to something

(41:49):
in a very loving way, wherewe later find it's the dog. So
it must be the case that shewas sort of wooing these three rock vilers
as you do, you know,early in the film, So this has
been going on for some time.She's become in a weirdly one with these
rock violence. They almost become herfamiliars, don't they. Well, that's
what happens in the Omen. Damienmakes eye contact with the dogs and that's

(42:13):
when they attack people. So they'veobviously taken a bit from that. Definitely.
Yeah. Yeah, As I saidbefore, he doesn't sort of keep
track of what his influences are,but yeah, he doesn't note that the
Omen was a was a general kindof influence and other things as well.
And it's the same dog, whichis great. Yeah. Yeah. Has
anyone seen any of the Dario Argentathe Jarlov films. Suspiria is probably the

(42:36):
most. Yeah, yeah, theseventies. Yeah, if you watch those
Jarlo films, it's a sort ofseries of films, they often look quite
amateurish, not saying this one lookedamateurish, but you know what I mean,
in part because some of the someof the blood in the Argenta films
looks very kind of fake. Butit seems to be almost but they're quite

(42:57):
disturbing at the same time. Andthen the other one really was. The
other one was Jewel. You know, have you ever seen the Steven Spielberg
film. Oh, yes, absolutely, any time, just seeing him on
the road. And the weird thingis that there's even a scene in Jewel
where he's in a phone box callinghis wife and the truck into the phone
box, which is almost what happenedhere was. I really thought of that

(43:21):
film as well. I kind offelt the same way that it reminded me
of that movie. Never cared tome. Yeah, yes, And you
never see whoever it is is drivingthat lorry in this film. You never
see them, just like in Duelyou never really see the person in that.
No, you only ever see achanging gear or you know, you
see his boots or you know.And in this film, you don't even

(43:43):
see that there's anybody driving it atall. And I always get the feeling
like it's the three dogs or somehowanimating this lorry. Yeah. Yeah.
And the only other one was don'tlook now if you've seen that Donald Sutherland
film, Donald Sutherland, he justdied. It didn't mean to be topical.
I just died, but yeah,dnd other than Julie Christy as a
fantastic film came out the same yearas I Don't Wish I'd been around?

(44:06):
Because it was a double bill?Can you imagine that? Oh? I
say, was it really? Oh? Goodness? In nineteen seventy three Don't
Look Now? Talking about Don't LookNow again? There are so many weird
moments in that Don't Look Now inand of themselves are nothing, but added
together cumulatively, they give you asense of great unease, don't they?
Yeah, sort of sort of anythingcould happen. The rules of cause and

(44:30):
effect are somehow breaking down. Justwe'll just say a little bit more about
the girl who played Joanne Fowler.So this is Samantha Waison. I thought
she was very wooden in her dialogue. However, I did think if you
put that aside, her actual playingof the part visually was very good.

(44:51):
She does a lot of blank staring, clearly upset staring, daggers at him,
and she does all of that reallywell. Such a shame that not
more time was spent coaching her inhow to deliver the lines in a more
believable way. But you know that'sthat's the way it is. Quite she
was. It doesn't bother me,I know what you mean, but I

(45:14):
think it adds to that weird effect. I can almost believe that she's putting
on this sort of performance, youknow, and she's talking in this stilted
way because she's acting, and she'sshowing them that she's acting. I mean,
well, yeah, there is that. I mean, I might be
overthinking it, but didn't bother metoo much. So I agree, it
doesn't bother me. But you know, as we're analyzing, it's one of

(45:35):
the things that I did think wasa relative weakness, you know. But
then I think British child British Britishchild actors, I just think, I
just think they're real bug better,They're just a real weakness in a lot
of films. Somehow. American childactors they seem fine, they seem naturalistic
a lot of them, but Britishones, like they've come out of performing
school, and the very few ofthem I can think of her naturalistic.

(45:58):
She did come out of a dramaschool, apparently, when around trying to
find from the drama schools, Yeah, well there we go. That's what
I mean. It's sort of there'sa kind of performance and this was.
She not done much before this,so she was very greed. She done
some Enid Blyton stuff. Was thisthe only role she's ever played? Because
I thought I had read when Iwas looking in this movie up that this
was her only role. She didn'ttake anything after this either, That could

(46:20):
be wrong. She did a littlebit, okay, she'd done something in
TV TV series of the Famous Fiveor something. I don't know what she
did. She did something in that, and then she did this, So
she not had much practical experience,you know, professional practice experience before this,
and then later you wait for this, Frank, wait for this.
She was in Superman four. Ohyeah, Okay, isn't the weakest of

(46:44):
the four Superman movies? Yeah?Four was by far the worst regarded one.
Yeah. Yeah, films in MiltonKings. Wasn't it any film that
Milton Kings trying to be New York? Oh? Good lord. She was
in an episode of Shrinks or somethingin nineteen ninety one, and so something
else with their life. So that'sthe way it is. First delivery.

(47:04):
Wasn't that different from the Twins andShining? You know, come and blame
me that Stanny. You know,I'm wondering whether part the intentional. I
just don't know. Yeah, well, there's other shows I've seen where sort
of like wooden dialogue delivery. Idon't know if any of you all have
watched Twin Peaks ever, but there'scertain times in that TV show where there's

(47:27):
delivery like that the movie fire Walkwith Me, which is sort of a
prequel, like just the first liketwenty minutes of the movie, there's just
some very weird delivery of dialogue andit's just like first time I watched,
like what the heck is? Likewhat the heck? But then I've watched
it a couple of times and it'slike, oh yeah, it actually feels
more natural. So I'm wondering ifthat's just a way that they try to
convey certain things. All I cansay is that people are going to have

(47:52):
to watch it for themselves to makethat judgment. Yeah, we're really giving
her a part, so we reallyare. Yeah, But I must admit
I wouldn't be well out of themovie because I do think, you know,
as I say, visually, Ithink she was really really good and
spooking. There was a certain seatsI'll talk about my favorite scenes in a

(48:12):
minute and anyway, But you hada question about these apples, Anthony,
what's that all about? Yeah,that's what on you to tell me?
Was it a biblical thing? That'swhat I was wondering, all right,
go on, No, I don'tknow that. I read something about the
apples and they were talking. Idon't know whether it was one of them
suspended. I can't remember what itwas. But yeah, okay, well
all right, so let's take that'sit. So he buys some apples,
doesn't he he's at this service station. Is that where he buys the apples?

(48:36):
I think it is. He muncheson the apples as he goes along,
and obviously it's a pack of apples, so he sticks them in the
glove compartment area. And then lateron when he has the accident, of
course, all these apples are goingall over the place and getting smashed things,
which we'll talk about in a bit. At the end of the film,
the cars upside down and one ofthe apples drops and it drops through

(48:57):
a hole in the windscreen. Sothat's when you know he's upside down.
Up to that point, you thinkhe's okay, but that gives away the
fact that he's upset on anything.Oh no, you're still in mortal danger
here. So the whole point ofhaving the apples, Lindsay wrote that in
in order to make that possible.So I don't think it's got any symbolic
value whatsoever. Actually, it's justfunctional. And I might also add that

(49:20):
when you go to the Book ofGenesis you will find that it's not an
apple in the garden of Eden anyway. It's the fruit of the knowledge of
good and evil. So yes,I don't know where this apple idea came
from, but that's one of thethings is in the culture, isn't it.
What's that, Frank, the wholeapple idea, the apple idea,
I think it must have come fromRanastance, right from painting. Probably,

(49:44):
wasn't it. You've got to portrayit as something. Yeah. The other
thing was the idea of the carbeing suspended, almost as if some divine
intervention was keeping that car up fora certain amount of time. Yes,
but then what made it crashing?That's the question. It's in interesting you
say that, because I'm going tocome to that at the end when we
think about themes and things. No, no, no, because you're talking

(50:06):
about perhaps divine intervention. I seeit completely the other way around, because
when that car is suspended at thetop on its nose, that's not divine
intervention stopping that happened. That seemsto me to be kind of invisible evil
hand playing with, toying with him, and like he's walking the plank then
say no, no, now,I'm going to execute you. You know,
it's completely malevolent. And I interpretit exactly the same way. When

(50:29):
it hits the trees there and youthink he's okay, he's also again being
played with. I'm allowing you tolinger here in your torment because of course
he's got the seat belt on himas well. As I see, I
don't thin there's any divine. Infact, I don't know there's anything divine
in this film at all, whichis a point that I want to make
in a bit. I thought itwas interesting as well that the wife dreamt

(50:51):
exactly what happened, Yes, whichnormally does it happen dreams? Does it?
She dreamt it was his bloody turnedtrying to get a seat belt off,
and as soon as he released seatbelt, Yes, he crashed in
her dream, Yeah, that's right, And she wants to tell him that
because he's on the road and hephones her from that telephone box and she
really wants to get that information across, which is a bit embarrassed. Yeah.
I don't think I'm strange when Itell you this, but I had

(51:13):
this dream and that's the exact momentwhere the money runs out, of course,
isn't it, and you can't getthe next coin. Well, yeah,
I was a kid in the earlyeighties. Yeah, we used to
talk about the pips, didn't we. Yes, you put the phone box
the pips are going. It's true. It's so true. That was a
bit of a yes, And therewere boxes like that where you couldn't get

(51:35):
that money in. Do you rememberthose so irritating? Yeah, memories,
not that I have a carried abox around with me. They carried that
telephone box around with them, apparentlybecause they couldn't guarantee the find one where
they wanted it, so they plantedthat one in the middle of the countryside.
They often do. Actually, mostfilms that have somebody in a phone
box they do because yeah, theywant it exactly where they want it,
with a good background, and sothey bring it easier to bring it along

(52:00):
fake. Isn't it funny how hemakes that telephone box into something really sinister?
You know, later on in thejourney, where he's getting near to
the accident site and he's thinking aboutthese weird dreams he's had, and he
looks back, doesn't he, Andhe sees the jacket in the back of
the car, and he sees thebriefcase in the back of the car,
and he see and I've seen thesethings before in my dreams. This is
weird. And then he goes aflashback about the telephone box, which is

(52:22):
just this upright bright red thing inthe countryside, and that is sinister.
And it's just it's just a telephonebox. And do we get the idea
that the car, the car isobviously being played with by these evil forces.
He gets a puncture, doesn't he, And it seems towards the end
the car is just falling apart,yeah, bit by bit, Yeah,

(52:42):
just before it goes off the edge. Nothing you can do to escape from
this appointment with death. Presumably itis the idea, isn't it. And
the second time I watched it,knowing the end, rather than it's spoiling
it for me, it improved everythingthat went before, because there was a
sense, yes, it was moreunsett on the second time, even though
what was going to happen, whichis strange. But yeah, yeah,

(53:02):
I don't think there's any danger indoing a spoiler here because it's not that
kind of film, is it.You know you could see it time and
again. Yeah, sure, sure, that's right. Yeah, yeah,
well yeah, I wanted to mentionsomething about the man himself from the interviews
because I think it's quite interesting toget a little bit of background. I
thought he came over very well asa very pleasant manner. I don't know

(53:23):
whether he did you mark see anyof the interviews at all on the disc?
Yeah, no, I watched allthe actras yeah, and the commentary
as well. Yeah yeah. Didyou warm to him as well? I
think there's a lot of history thatthere isn't there, which he does talk
about. Yes, clearly he didn'tget on or there was tensions, yes,
within the film, which I thinkhe admitted that that's why he hadn't

(53:44):
made any more films. Yes,I mean, who knows exactly because this
was from his point of view,wasn't it. But I got the impression
from what he said that there wasthere was a difficulty within the production team.
Yeah, the relationships soured in someway. I found a man perhaps
a little bit bitter. Something hashappened a very long time ago. And
funny enough, I just had atext from a friend who saw him at

(54:05):
the BFI being interviewed when they thinkthey showed the lake and apparently she said,
oh, he was very crumpy.So I think he's probably very frustrated
by the fact that he obviously knowsthis is a very good film and he
wanted to do more and for whateverreason, right, nothing has happened since.
I think that's a great shame,isn't it. Yes, you know,
he's got over it to a certainstone, hasn't he, because he's
carried on with life, you know. But I think he's rightly upset obviously.

(54:30):
You know, when you own aninterview, it brings it all back
to you, doesn't it. Youknow. But there're some interesting things about
his life. I think that maybehelp us to understand where he's coming from.
And he said that as a child, when he's about five or six
years old, some family member orother shut him repeatedly under the stairs in
a cupboard of an old Victorian housefor extended periods of time, no apparent

(54:51):
reason. It was sort of bullyingthing going on, which he's had had
a huge impact on him, andhe said it opened my eyes to all
kinds of things. He didn't specifywhat that was. And he says that
he's an anxious person. He says, my life is anxiety plus, So
you know, I think he sortof conditioned. I think to you know,
have a sort of view of perhapsbeing unsettled, to be unsettled that

(55:13):
things are against you in some unknownway. And he also said that he
has admitted this is very hard toarticulate, but he's been fascinated throughout his
life with everyday objects having a sortof history to them, or like a
personal history, so you know,like picture frames, clocks, ornaments,
they've been put there by somebody,and he's fascinated by the fact that they
were put there by somebody, doesn'tnecessarily know what that backstory is at all,

(55:37):
but then feels that those objects havesome kind of negative influence upon him,
which is strange. He can't quitearticulate it, but that very much
fits with what's going on in themovie, doesn't it. There are all
kinds of everyday objects and having thisstrange negative influence on their characters. And
he also says he's a fatalist.There's a quote from him. There are

(55:58):
things in contry for all of youthat you know nothing about, and it's
probably just as well you don't,he says. So he has that definite
sense of being controlled by fake Yeah. Well, I tend to say no,
really watching this, what a surprise. He's had a hard time in
two ways. Yeah. Did hewrite the script or collaborate on the script?

(56:19):
I think he wrote the story andwrote the script right, Yeah,
and obviously spent a great deal moretime on the dialogue aspect of the script
than he did in so before inhis previous film, which he must have
learned a huge amount from, becauseI think it's a good script. Actually,
can I tell you my supernatural story? Yes? Do? This is
very weird. This has not hauntedme, but this has baffled me for

(56:42):
years. So. I used tolive in London and I was in a
shared flat and I was studying becauseI went to drama school. I was
actually studying Stanislavski. It's a famousacting the method, and it's like an
acting bible. The method yeah,and everyone else was out of the house.
I swear everyone else was at thehouse. There was only three of
us showing this flat anyway, AndI had my books all over the place,

(57:07):
and I went to the toilet,came back a few minutes later,
and my books were stacked. Fouror five of my books were stacked neatly
in a pile. And I swearon my life, as far as I
know, unless I don't think Iwas dreaming, I cannot. You know,
there's no answer to this. I'mnot looking for any explanation. But
did you say you're on your ownin the flat? I'm almost I mean,

(57:28):
yeah, unless someone just popped inwhile I was in the toilet and
popped out again, which I can't. Yeah, I'm sure because it was
I think it was even like aFriday night or a Saturday night, and
they were out and I was staggingin for whatever reason. Wow. Yeah,
that reminded me of the opening scenein Ghostbusters, where they're you know,
in the library and those stacks ofbooks everywhere, and Peter Bankers like
Youah, no human would stack books. But yeah, that's kind of creepy.

(57:53):
It's weird. Yeah, it iscreepy. Yeah. I had lots
of djav as well, definitely strongdajava. Oh yeah, yeah, there
glitters in the matrix. I lovethat. I love that concept of the
matrix. Brilliant. Yeah yeah,spooky, very spooky. Shall I share
tell you? Well, actually I'mshare a different one, but share.

(58:15):
You're going to laugh at this becauseit is stupid, but it really freaked
me out as a child. Thisis not the one I was going to
share it, but I'll share thisone instead. So this must have been
about eleven ten eleven something like that. Middle of the night. I was
sort of coming to you know,sometimes you're half awake. Anyway, there
was this massive sound of a raspberryright outside my right outside my bedroom door.

(58:40):
Literally, I'm not kidding, Iam not kidding, and I went
absolutely stiff and terrified. I don'tknow why I just did. I thought
I've got to check. I've gotto check. So I got out of
bed, I went and opened thedoor. Nothing there, And of course
I felt even worse then because therewas nothing there. There was nothing to
explain it. Most bizarre experience,Milligan. Well, I must admit I

(59:06):
had been watching I had been watchingThe Phantom Raspbee blurer of Great London Town.
So maybe I had maybe it wasa dream. It was so real
it was. Yeah, maybe itwas half away, so maybe it was
a dream. But really it wasso real that it freaked me out.
We sometimes we think, Sarah andI think that our house might have some

(59:27):
kind of spooky presence. I mean, lots of things go missing and appear
in odd places. But I mean, you know, we have got four
year old child who could be him. Maybe things around, But I know
that I was I was upstairs oncereading stories Oscar and I you know,
at this corner of your eye,I thought I saw Sarah come past the
door, come upstairs, and shewas still downstairs. So it's only a

(59:51):
tiny little thing. And then apparentlyI've been out. Sarah was in the
kitchen and heard me call her,and I was in London. So little
things like that, it's funny ina way. They don't scare me.
I feel they should, but theyjust there's nothing along with that. There's
no funny, you know, horriblepresence or anything. It's just odd things,
right, Yeah, that you can'texplain. Yeah, because the only

(01:00:13):
reason why these odd things work inthe film is because there is a spooky
context to it, isn't it sothat it reminds me of things in the
film, But because of that malevolentbackstory going on here this narrative, yeah,
it takes on that horrible Have younotice, though, wouldn't you agree
that our society doesn't like things theycan't explain? But let's say in the

(01:00:34):
media, for example, so theyalways laugh at them or really ridicule them,
or just write them off and sayit must be a good explanation.
But my mind is pretty open tounseen force. People seem to fall into
two camps. They're either yeah,there's just a load of nonsense, or
you know, total credulity. Watchingall these programs about ghost hunters on TV
all the time, things it seemsto be you're either one or the other.

(01:00:58):
Sorry, sometimes sometimes same person.I'll have both of your points.
Yeah, I won't go into detailabout it, but I did have a
very unpleasant experience once where I wasactually directly affected by something that I believe
was an evil spirit. It wasabsolutely terrifying, absolutely terrifying, and I

(01:01:19):
just the only thing I was ableto do at the time was to pray
very loudly, and the friend Iwas with was a bit spooked up by
the fact that I suddenly started speakingvery loudly, But yeah, I was
terrified, but I think I wasdelivered from delivered from that situation by Christ
through that prayer. Wow, yeah, it was horrible. Well, I've

(01:01:39):
got one more. About twenty yearsago, my parents went on holiday to
one of the Greek islands. Duringthe flight, they experienced extreme turbulence.
You know, they thought they mightdie, it was that scary, and
they said that the crew seemed tolose their heads almost it was honest,
if the whole flight lost their heads. And then they told me afterwards when

(01:01:59):
they got the fact that, whenthey told one of my sisters, who
happens to be a very pragmatic person, she's one of the last people who
believe in probably believe in unseen forces. Apparently, when they told us they
were going to the Greek islands,before she had a chance to think,
she said, don't go like that. Apparently, right, they said that
afterwards, and I'm sure they weren'tlying. So yeah, my mind's pretty

(01:02:20):
open to this kind of thing.To be honest, I think it's a
shame that we feel like, notus, but our society feels like it
has to write it off somehow,try to handle the fact, you know,
well, yeah, it's a bitbizarre that we think we know everything.
I mean, ridiculous is that itis it is, And I do
have my own perspective here, youknow, in the churches and that there

(01:02:42):
are a lot of people who justwould dismiss all this. And you know,
you look at the New Testament andthat worldview clearly includes evil spirits.
They're all over the place, butnevertheless they're there. So the idea that
you'd tell nothing like that could everhappen, is, to my mind anyway,
is a nonsense. You're not takingthat world view seriously. I have
maybe a few I could share,but I think I just would summarize my

(01:03:02):
own experience as just I had probablystruggled with sleep paralysis quite a bit,
especially when I was an adult,and I think there was some sort of
attachment or something to my family too, because I remember having like terrors when
I was like really young, likethree four years old, and then when
we moved to a house after that, my sisters claimed they saw things.

(01:03:22):
Yeah I don't know exactly, butlike just kind of scary, creepy stuff.
But it wasn't until my twenties whenI realized and became a Christian that
you know that that's what it was, is demonic stuff. And then I
don't know if any of you allremember Chris White, but he had the
stop sleep paralysis stuffy. Yeah,when I started reading through that stuff,
like I'm praying some of the stuffhe suggests in there, that then like

(01:03:45):
some of the manifestations really got worsewith the sleep paralysis, and then like
praying through Christ and getting what helpedme get rid of it. So yeah,
I was gonna mention Chris White.Yeah, yeah, my final episode
of it of any sort of thing, because like when I started like praying
and following some of the guidelines heput out, you know, it was
like I would have these weird dreamsand there would be like this sort of

(01:04:05):
sinister presence in my dream sometimes.And like the very last time I had
anything happen, I woke up inthe middle of the night like screaming because
I thought I had seen something inmy room right where like this pile of
clothes was. It's just really strange. Like my ex wife, you know,
she told me stop screaming. Everything'sokay, really weird. But like

(01:04:26):
following all that stuff in his stopsoleteparalysis stuff, if anyone is having those
problems, that really helped me outa lot. Yeah, yeah, I
had. Chris was looking into thata great deal and teaching about that.
I've not experienced that. Yeah,that's very horrible. Other things right,
okay, yeah, Well, beforewe leave this, I just wanted to
ask if there are any favorite scenesthat anybody wants to mention. I think

(01:04:50):
I've already talked about a couple ofmine. I'll start off then a little
bit more about this. I lovethis one with Ian and his his wife
was sitting outside talking. She's justtalking to him and fiddling with his ear
or something. And then the camerapans around slightly, so we just see
Diane that his wife's arm, andthen it pans back again, and so

(01:05:12):
now the arm belongs to Joanne,and Joanne has this red dress and the
lipstick and the eyeline. It's allvery sexualized, and just at that moment
you're beginning to sort of get,oh, no, what's happened. It's
hers, it's the wrong person.You get this dog barking in your face
right off. It's really really welldone. I think. I think that's
the idea of psychological horror, isn'tit that you don't need blood and things,

(01:05:34):
and that it can be things likethat which with good camera work and
everything's unnerving. Yes it is.Yeah. We talked about the bedroom one
of the landing, didn't we Wherethe daughter is in the in her bedroom
and he's outside of the landing andhe decided shall I go in and talk
to her or not? And yetthe other side of the door, she's

(01:05:55):
absolutely staring straight through that door.Knows that he's not making any noise,
but she he's there. That's alsopretty spooky as well. And that goes
on forever. It's not half afilm, is it. It works,
and it's just it's just like thebit in in the Wicker Man, is
it not? When he's one sideof the door, I can't remember her
name dancing right, she's dancing verysourceily, shall we say, with not

(01:06:18):
much on. All the clothes havefallen off. And again that goes on
for ages, and he stays theother side of the door, but you
kind of sense, oh, he'sfinding it very difficult not to go through
the door and see what's going on. That seemed to be a very sort
of obvious homage. Maybe you like, yes, it's deglar, doesn't it.
She's singing a song. Yeah,you're right. So if you're putting

(01:06:39):
that aside, which yeah, okay, may well be, but just a
sheer study in how to create tensionwith minimal resources, like virtually nothing going
on, and yeah, it holdsyour attention for a minute after minute after
they're just there an at the doorknob. Yeah, I was pretty impressed by
that. Actually, it was reallywell shot. Yeah, my favorite scene

(01:07:00):
is when they're all sleeping, youknow, they are being troubled by the
various dreams. That that that wascool. But then I mean when you
have the three dogs like sniffing aroundoutside his house and like, you know,
what are they doing? Are theyare they manifesting some evil forces?
Or doing something making his plug file? You know what? It's just like
how much of that is symbolic andhow much is that? You know?
Are they physical? Are they spiritual? Yeah? That's that that was like

(01:07:23):
really interesting that scene. It is, isn't it. It's not quite clear
what the dogs are because they seemto be It's like she's one with those
dogs and yet they seem to bea manifestation of spiritual evil. It's like,
I don't know, none of itreally makes much sense, I suppose,
but yeah, but it was interesting. It's very interesting. It certainly
is, Yeah, because they popup in one of his dreams as well.

(01:07:45):
They do. They're on his car, aren't they, I think?
In the dream. Yeah, he'sjust about have the accident, isn't he,
And the dogs appear on the windscreen, Oh yeah, barking at him.
I think the difference to the Omenis that in this film they don't
actually attack, do they. No, No, they just bark. They're
really only doing anything aggressive in thedream. And then like out of the

(01:08:09):
dream, they're just kind of wanderingaround in the darkness, but symbolically on
the truck, you know, Yeah, that's right there. I think they're
out there most sinister when they're well, it's in the dream, isn't it.
But they enter the house. Theycan't enter the house, really can
they, because all the doors arelocked, But somehow they managed to get
through in the dream, and they'removing extra slow. They slowed down the

(01:08:30):
because dogs can't walk that slow,so they slowed it down, and you
hear the poor plods and it's that'sso slow and so non threatening in a
way, but yet it's incredibly threatening. Is moving definitely, Yeah, as
if they're planning every single movement.Yeah. Remember that scene in the Picnic

(01:08:54):
it Hanging Rock. Have you seenthat film where these girls going past.
It's if you're in a crevice ofa rock looking out and these schoolgirls are
walking past at normal speed, andI think then the last one just walks
past very it's been slowed down,and it's such a weird effect to slow

(01:09:14):
something down like that. Yes,unnatural, that's great. I've only ever
seen that film. Yeah, butthere's a bit of that in this as
well. Again. Yeah, it'sreally hard to think, like what you're
saying, Julie, to put yourfinger on what exactly it is. But
there's an atmosphere that pervades the film. Is there not there? Certainly is?
I guess they do. They dothe POV thing with the camera as
well, don't they. What's thatthat you can see that the camera represents

(01:09:35):
somebody, some force. Yeah.Absolutely, he does that a lot in
the Lake as well. It's likethe camera is another character. Yes,
it represents the evil force, likethe evil eye. And you as the
audience, you're looking through that andseeing what evil is seeing. That's a
technique he uses a lot. Yeah, they call it POV shots and the

(01:09:56):
point of view, right, yeah, okay, Yeah, My favorite off
Frank, No, it's just gonnaso I'm gonna be boring. And my
favorite scene as the car crash atthe end. I think it's well,
yes, I mean it's I thinkit probably is for all of us,
isn't it. Well, yeah,it's just as a piece of cinema.
This is what cinema is. It'sthe editing, all those individual shots edited
together, and the way that itplays with time slows it down, and

(01:10:20):
the car goes up and up andup, and then it just somehow well
they explain how in the making off, but it just stands there, doesn't
it. For like a minute onthe edge of this, it feels like
it. It's just it's almost notlaughable. That's the wrong word. It's
almost ridiculous. But it's the wayit plays with time and space, and
it sounds pretentious, but it's slowingthis whole thing down and just shot by

(01:10:42):
shot by shot, building it andbuilding I mean, I don't know how
long they took to shoot that,or so, I seem to remember two
weeks. That's a week, twoweeks. I mean, that is a
film in itself. It is.Yeah, Yeah, it's funny mentioned the
word ridiculous because I keep going backto this thing of like this film twice
and the first time I just thoughtit was ridiculous. The second time that

(01:11:03):
seemed to be a strength absolutely,because I've heard people say this is the
most ridiculous car crash. You know, it's nonsense, it's laughable. And
yeah, that's the point, andpeople not understood what's going on there.
The whole point is that when itgets to that point where it's just about
to perch on the edge of themountainside, it's lifted up in a completely

(01:11:24):
unnatural way. There's no way that'sthe momentum of the car. The whole
point is there's an unseen and unseenforce that's lifting that car into position and
holding it there and tormenting ian.That's the whole point. And then it's
pushed over like being pushed off theplank, you know. And also the
fact that it's done physically, it'sphysically happening. There's no special effects.

(01:11:44):
It's all physical. It's the realcar. It's on a special thing,
but it's and also some of theshots the car is quite a long way
away from it. It's like you'rewatching a documentary about it. It's like
they fixed some cameras around then theyjust decided to put the car there,
and they've just filmed what's happened.It's in a way less dramatic than say
something scene from duel. It's moresort of almost measured scientific, do you

(01:12:06):
know what I mean? And itbuilds it up and builds it up,
but you think, where the heckis this going? Oh my goodness,
Yeah, there's an awful lot ofdetail, isn't there. As it crashes,
you get the apple hitting the rearview mirror, you get the tires
exploding one by one and then twoat the front, and the briefcase goes
out the window, the kid's glassescome off, petrol gushes out the bag,

(01:12:28):
and the jacket go out the windows. Almost laughable in a way,
isn't it. But each individual thingis tremendous detail, Like you say,
almost like, well, it's inslow motion, isn't it? A lot
of them? Yeah? Doesn't thecar coming out? Yes, that's right,
Petrol Frank was really crazy. I'mlike, what did I hack?
Just from blowing out a couple oftimes. I mean that tells you right

(01:12:48):
there, it is ridiculous, butlike that's kind of your clue that,
yeah, this is something unnatural happening. Exactly right, I was saying earlier.
It feels like the car just basicallyfalls apart. His force is just
propelling him. And what is theresignificance to the fact that is as he
releases the seat belt. Isn't thatthe point where the car falls? It's

(01:13:08):
just like in her Drea it is, yeah, fing inside and then like
you can see the scene where hislike he would snap his neck or something
when he hits the and I kindof winked at that part. And then
like he when he hits the rippedin the car falls. You know,
Yes, there's awful shot of hisfoot there in the in the foot is
and it is kind of bent thewrong way. That's horrible. Yeah,

(01:13:30):
as you say, if he'd stayedthere, well, I mean, how
could somebody have rescued him? ButI mean if any had stayed there,
you know, he might have lastedlonger. He doesn't know which ways up,
which is a bit older. There'sa there's a guy above, isn't
there who shouts to him, youknow, yeah, something like don't do
anything or something, I'm gonna goand get help, don't do anything.
Rush. That's right. He wasthe stunt driver. He was actually the
stunt driver. So how weird isthat? But yeah, as you say,

(01:13:55):
he doesn't just do nothing. Hetries to get out of the situation.
And that's trying still to be incontrol. I suppose this is downfall,
although I get the impression there's nothingyou can do anyway, because it's
also fatalistic. Yeah, which bringsthe last thing, of course, his
meanings. And I think that's oneof the clear themes, the fatalism,
the sense that there's nothing you cando, you can't change the future,

(01:14:16):
And of course I personally reject thatworldview. I think that you can well
may not change the future because thefuture has not happened yet, but you
know, you can influence what's goingto happen. You can select a different
possible future by what you do.You know, I don't believe in fate
any If you believe in fate likethat, I believe in some sort of

(01:14:38):
fate I don't know why would itbe him anyway. He's not a bad
guy, is he? So whyI mean, I believe that. You
know, somebody could say some objectis cursed and then you think, oh,
it must be cursed. It's goingto affect me somehow, and then
you kind of subconsciously yes, youknow, yes, I've been given a
prophecy and you believe it. Youknow, don't go in a cliff or
something, and you I don't know, there's a self fulfilling I see,

(01:15:00):
sometimes making something happen that you've beentold will happen, so you sort of
subconsciously make it happen, right,right, Yeah, I believe Yeah,
sure, yeah, I suppose.What I'm saying I'm trying to say,
I suppose is I agree with youactually, but what the film presents,
it seems to me, is hopelessnessin that sense, there's no chink of
light, and you know, there'sthere's no there's no exorcism, there's no

(01:15:24):
possibility of freedom. It's going tohappen to him and that's it. And
that view of the universe I reject. I don't think the universe is like
that. Although people can be influencedby things and feel there's no choice,
et cetera. And in many cases, I suppose people do have lives such
that there is no choice, ButI don't think that characterizes the universe.
And I think this is what we'represented with here, a very fatalistic universe

(01:15:45):
in which there's nothing you can doto change anything because it's set. Came
across to me, that's where thehorror comes from, isn't it. You
know, Yeah, that's where thehorror. Yes, yeah, you almost
saying fatalism is in people's heads.If you just have such a strong belief
that you know your life's not goingto turn out, well, you're almost
saying that. I Well, Ithink so character is fate. I mean,

(01:16:06):
I really do think that is atruth. Then if you think you're
always going to do things wrong,you will end up probably doing things wrong
because you're sort of you know,you haven't broken out of the box.
You need to faith that you willdo something right, or indeed faith in
God, because there was no mentionof that in this film. But then
it's horror film, so okay.I mean, actually I thought that evil

(01:16:28):
seemed to have the upper hand throughoutthis. I felt that evil was almost
godlike in this film, you know, because these Joanne stroke Dog's evil force
were almost omnipresent. They were everywhere, you know, and they were almost
omniscient. They knew everything, Theyknew where he was going to be.
They were inside his head, theywere in his house. They were controlling
his car, they were controlling othervehicles on the road and even pushing the

(01:16:50):
vehicle with an invisible hand, etcetera. This is almost god like stopping
his watch, I suppose, aswell, stopping his watch, controlling time,
et cetera. And I suppose oneof the things that is kind of
cathartic about watching this is to realize, actually, that's not true. You
know, there is evil, there'snatural evil, there's there's there's human evil,
there's there is supernatural evil. Butyou know, it is not the

(01:17:12):
case that we live in that kindof universe. The evils do exist,
the evils are permitted, but ultimatelyit is the good God who is on
the present and omnising, etcetera.But of course the film can't present that
because that's not what it's doing.But there is a Catharsis, isn't now.
I think you said in the past, Mark when you watch a horror
film, sometimes part of the functionof that is to say, oh,

(01:17:33):
life isn't really like that. Yeah, totally roller coaster ride. Oh that's
good, I'm plan, I'm fine. I'm fine. Now let's move on.
I would never do that, bythe way, I would never do
it. That's just me. Idid one in Disneyland a few weeks ago,
so I know, and it's like, but as a film for any

(01:17:56):
Julians, as a film or forany explanation for why this evil force is
targeted him, it doesn't really,does it Only the daughter's disappointment and the
shattering of her fantasies about her father. It should be called the Disappointment.
Although I do think it is aclever title, isn't it, you know,
because it's the appointment with death andit's the I don't like the title.

(01:18:19):
I do because he has an appointment. He's got to go to this
appointment with work. He also missesher appointment for the concert. Yeah,
but it's such a meaningless title inthat. If you saw that in you
think I don't want that. I'mnot going to watch that. No,
I actually don't like the title.Going to come out and say that.
Oh I do, I do?There we go. If you don't agree

(01:18:41):
with me, Mark, you're notcoming on again. Who's on my side?
Who thinks it's a good title?Yeah? Thanks? What was actually
the work commitment that he was goingto I've forgotten what that was. I've
forgotten. There was some accident,wasn't there a coworker. His coworker was

(01:19:02):
having a baby, and so hehis coworker unexpectedly had to take the time
off to be with his wife,and so they asked Edward Woodward to Edward
Woodward would help. He definitely wouldlike taking up his friend's duty to go
to whatever this meeting was. Yeah, he's not an accident investigator making that

(01:19:23):
up. I think he was.He had to go investigate something. Yeah,
and I forget exactly what it was, but I think you're along the
right lines. I think it hassomething to do with an accident. Yes,
he was supposed to, like amining accident. I think it was
for an insurance company, something alongthose lines. Yeah, that's what I
thought it was. Yeah, asyou say, Mark, rather ironic that

(01:19:45):
he ends up with an accident himselfat the end. What she investigates the
whole thing with him missing the concertis so anticlimacic, that, isn't it
the way they do, Dad needsto come to my concert. And then
it's like okay. The mother saysshe's probably forgotten about it. That's what's
quite strange about this. The onlybit of plot is completely anti cloth.

(01:20:06):
The daughter does overreact, you know, good heavens, it's only missing her
concept to kill your father over there. But there is more to it,
isn't there. Obviously there's a dysfunctionalrelationship here that's been going on for some
time. And I mean, that'sanother thing I get from this is,
you know, to pay attention toyour children properly and treat them as real
people. Yea. Otherwise don't drivein a car on your own around some

(01:20:28):
mountain roads. Yeah, that's onebit I really liked when he said to
the daughter, you're only a child. Just try and relax and enjoy it
more. Yeah, because I wishsomeone had told me that when I was
a teenager. So I didn't relaxand enjoy it at all. I was
always thinking too far ahead or thinkingback to the past. I was never
you know, I wish someone hassaid and enjoy it access to Yeah,

(01:20:55):
I kind of like that. Thatwas a good line. I enjoyed that.
Anthony. You never had any rottenas friends, did you when you're
a child? Check? No,I did. I did, used to
have diet and my parents can wakeme up though for a while. Further
than that. Okay, that's allyou're getting. Sorry, Okay, Oh

(01:21:16):
well, I think we've we've probablyreached the end of this. I said
before, there's a lot of subtledetail in this film, and I do
think it's worth watching several times.Speaking to the audience of you know,
if you do get a copy ofthis from British Film, since you recommend
you do that. I don't knowif it's playable in the States. This
is certainly blu ray that plays inthis country, maybe European countries. Not

(01:21:39):
not sure what its scope is orwhether it's region free. Don't know anyway,
I think the negative reactions that I'veseen and read from people, I
think is I get the impression it'sbased on people's short attention span. You
know, you have to like slownessto watch this, you know, it
gives you that opportunity for attention todetails. So I'm going to sit here,
I'm actually going to I'm not gonnabe put off by this. I'm

(01:22:00):
going to watch the detail and everytime I've seen it, there's more,
more and more in there. It'sa whole different way of watching movies,
isn't it. You know? Andthe last thing I want to repeat really
is I wonder what Vickers would havedone if he'd carried on. I do
wonder whether he would have been,you know, one of the greats,
because it seems to me that there'sgreatness in this and I just wish there'd
been more to enjoy. But that'sthe way it goes. So thanks very

(01:22:26):
much, Chaps for you are comingon and talking about this. I've enjoyed
it very much. Well, Iwant to say thanks to all of you
as well for this discussion, becausethis has been fantastic. This is what
I as a guest, I waskind of hoping for this. I knew
I had stuff to offer that,like, you've all helped make sense of
a lot of it. Good,so good. So you can explain it
to me now listening back to thisrecording and making sense to me. Yeah,

(01:22:51):
and then watching it yet again totry and make sense of it.
Okay, So everybody, that's theappointment. It's available the BFI shop.
The British Film is to shop dotBFI dot org dot UK. It's part
of the flip side collection there andI'll quote what that is. BFI.
Flip Side is dedicated to rediscovering themargins of British and Irish film, reclaiming

(01:23:12):
a space for forgotten movies and filmmakerswho would otherwise be in danger of disappearing
from our screens forever. So I'mvery glad they've they've saved this one,
So go and watch it. Thanksagain, chaps, great discussion, Thank
you, hooru. And we cango to bed here and Frank can get
on with the rest of his day. Brilliant. Thanks ever so much seriously

(01:23:33):
for staying up this late to doit. I appreciate it. No worries,
Thank you, Thanks a lot.Don't have any bad dreams like this
stand up please do sleep. ShowNotes for this program can be found at

(01:23:57):
the Mind reneudet theMIND at renewd dotcom. Podcast music by the brilliant Anthony
Rachekoff. Attribution non commercial share likefour point zero International. You have been
listening to me Julian Charles and myguests, Frank Johnson, Anthony Rattuno,
and Mark Campbell, and I verymuch look forward to speaking to you again
in the near future.

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