September 28, 2024 • 45 mins
At long last, here is Part Two* of our latest conversation with UK evangelist Vince McCann—host of the Chenzo1969 YouTube channel—on his long-time ministry of speaking with Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons (and others) on the streets of UK towns and cities in the prayerful hope of reaching people for Christ. Drawing upon his extensive experience of such street ministry, Vince shares with us some practical advice that might help us in our own conversations with people caught up in New Religious Movements that claim the Bible as a foundational text. (*I decided, for reasons explained in Part One, to publish this interview in two parts.) [For show notes please visit https://themindrenewed.com]
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hello everybody, Julian Chiles here of theMIND Renewed dot Com,
coming to you from the depths of the Lancashire countryside
here in the UK, and welcome to Tiamar number three
hundred and fifteen, which is the second part of my
conversation with UK evangelist Vince McCann, the first part of
which I posted several weeks ago, and as I said
in part one, we had many connection difficulties throughout this conversation,
(00:33):
which meant that I had to do a lot of
editing to stitch things together to enhance listenability. So of
course it is the same with this second part, and
just like last time, I've decided to leave in one
or two instances of breakdowns of communication to I'm going
to use that word again. It's fun just to add
verisimilitude anyway. Joking aside, Please do listen to part one
(00:58):
of this interview if you haven't heard that already, because
obviously it sets the scene for part two. But on
the assumption that you have indeed heard that first part already,
I shall say I shall delay no further other than
to say I hope you enjoy and find useful this
part too, of my latest conversation with Vince mccatt.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
I mean, some of them are lovely. I mean as people.
I found most of them are really nice to talk to.
And you've just got to go in there with an
attitude that you really are interested in them, that you
really want to show Christian love to them. I mean
that alone can really help. And last time I spoke
to the witnesses, we were talking about this earlier obviously,
you and I Julie and off the interview where I
(01:40):
spoke to the witnesses last time about my testimony. And
I'd just like to encourage people if you don't feel
that you can go into all these doctrinal things with
the witnesses, and I know it's not for everybody, but
be prepared with a few things and then just excuse
yourself and just say, well, you've got to carry on
doing your shopping.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Most of them are in precinct in town centers.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
You can talk about maybe born Again John Free three,
the important of that you can share with them the
scripture and won Timothy two five to six, Jesus being
the mediator, but then you could use your testimony as well.
The last time I spoke to the witnesses. I just
gave them a testimony because I was limited with time.
I had about twenty minutes really before I was going
on somewhere, so I just thought that he led to
(02:20):
just give a testimony, and it really did seem to have.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
A fact he did. I heard it.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Yeah, that's right, Yeah, yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Noticed because it sort of shifted it out of the
sort of theoretical dimension of you know, yeah, like proof
text tennis, you know, or no, it says here, and
then you could say, well, no, it says here, and
they say, well it says here, and I thought, oh,
come on, where where's it going. And then as soon
as you started sharing your testimony, it was like cutting
through ice, you know, it was. It was amazing, and
that they then they then started asking you questions about
well what do you think of this? And what do
(02:47):
you think of that? So it would certainly worked.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Yeah, I mean, it's so much going on when you're
talking to these people, because you know, you don't.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Spiritual battles straight away anyway.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
But I think the very fact that there's two of them,
usually at least two of them at the heart human
nature being what it is, egos are at stake as well.
I've found people don't want to lose face. So if
you're talking to just one individual, like aware colleague, it
was a Jehovah's witness, I'm sure the conversation would run
a lot differently, maybe a lot more openly from the
perspective of the witnesses. But as it is, you got
(03:18):
two of them, there at least two of them, so
they're constantly monitoring each other. And there's like a snitch
mentality as well, where they report each other to their
elders and they can get each other into trouble for
something that someone says that's wrong or not in accordance
with the organization. So they're constantly aware of this. So
there's a fear mentality there as well. There's an ego
(03:38):
thing at stake. All this is going on, So when
you're talking, it might be that they disagree with everything
you say, but it might only be to save face
in front of the other person or people, right.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Could be preference falsification, as the phrase goes. They could
actually be thinking one thing and just think wow, yeah
inside their heads, thinking well, I better not say that,
because yeah, I have no doubt.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
And there's a lot of witnesses who have become Christians
who have said things later on when they've become Christians,
they've said, you know this guy, he's talking to me,
this Christian, and he said this, he said that, and
it did have an effect on me. But I showed
them that through my face that you know, he made
no impact on me whatsoever.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
But he really did.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
And it so the seed which grew into their freedom
from the group and into their salvation in Christ.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
So so yeah, these things can have an effect.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
So what say to people don't be discouraged because a
lot of Christians will say, oh, it's a waste of time,
will never change them. But it doesn't matter. I mean,
nobody's going to say that these guys. It's unlikely they're
going to fall down, convert to your feet and say,
oh yeah, and you think you've said is is right?
Because there's so much going on, there's so much pride,
there's so much indoctrination is watching and listening to what
each other says when you're talking to them in a group.
(04:48):
So it's only in the small, quiet moments where they
reflect later on, and you can pray that they would
remember the things you've said and the devil doesn't take
away the seed that was sown in their hearts. Pray
that it remin aims and that it bears through that
they start to think, well, maybe that guy had a point.
They'll hopefully look up some of the things you've said.
I always try and see to them as well. Please,
(05:08):
you know, I'll look up some of the things you've said.
Can you please look up some of the things I've
said or think on them a bit more?
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Yes, you know, ask them to say that.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
But I'd say to people, be encouraged, even if it
looks like nothing's happening, you know, continue with it, be
faithful in presenting what.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
You absolutely you have that servant's spirit about it, which
you clearly have, which is highly commendable. You know. I
think the temptation we have to want instant results in people,
as you say, following at your feet. I mean, that's
more to do with us than it used to do
with serving God and serving these people, isn't it. You know,
we want results, you know, because it makes you feel good.
(05:43):
But yeah, it's a slow business, and as you say,
have faithful business, keeping going even though things just look
rather bleak. But you don't know that they may well
not be because the spirit will be acting in ways
that we don't see.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Yeah, definitely, could I share another place Julian and another
found which catches them off guard? Again, I've got a
few things, but how much time we've got? But this
is one that I like to use. It's a personal
relationship with Jesus approach. And a lot of Christians will
probably mention this to them and they'll just brush it
off the witnesses and say, oh, yeah, I've got a
(06:19):
relationship with Jesus. And then a lot of Christians don't
really know where to go after that, and the conversation
normally normally ends. But what I would say is ask
them if you've got a relationship with Jesus. Most of
them will say yes they have, And then what I
normally say to them is, well, if you've got a
relationship with Jesus, do you communicate with him?
Speaker 3 (06:40):
And they'll say, well, what do you mean?
Speaker 2 (06:42):
And you'll say, well, do you pray to Jesus? Because
prayer is communication with a person. And then they might say, well,
we pray in his name and you say, well, yeah, that's.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
Fine, we do that as well as Christians.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
But do you pray to him, And you really have
to pin them down and be very specific and maybe
keep pressing them a bit on this, because they'll dance
around a little bit and go right round and try to.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Avoid the actual question.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
If he keeps saying, well, we pray through Jesus, we
pray in his name. Yeah, but do you pray to Jesus,
and they will say, no, we do not pray to Jesus.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Yeah. I've had that experience as well. I've actually had
to drop the word pray because even that can be
interpreted away in different ways kind of. But oh yeah,
just to say do you talk to him, I've found
that cut straight through, and they'll say, oh, no, we
don't talk to Jesus. We talk to the Father exactly. Yeah,
and not.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Then they're like, they'll bring up the lord's prayer to
Jesus taught us to pray this way our father, who
is in heaven hell I would be thy name, et cetera.
And you can say, yeah, we agree with that. We
generally pray to the Father, but the scriptures do show
clear instances where we can pray directly to Jesus as well,
(07:53):
and in fact we need to because John five twenty
three says that almost honor the son even as they
honor the father God.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
But they'd say that's that's honoring though, it's just honoring.
That's not talking to they'd say, wouldn't they.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Oh, yeah, they'll say that. But you can say, well,
honor must include everything. They must include praying to Jesus
in the way same way that we would praise to
the Father, worshiping Jesus in the same day that we
would praise to the Father. So to honor the son
as you would honor the Father must mean that we
pray to him as well. And the fact that the
Visk goes on to say that he who does not
(08:27):
honor the son does not honor the father who sends him.
So we can we can use John five twenty three
somewhere in the conversation, Well, what.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Do they make us something like a book of acts?
You know, where Stephen's being stoned.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
Oh yeah, it's a good point.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
And he does, in fact talk to Jesus kind of
doesn't He says, Lord Jesus received my spirit exactly. Yeah,
I mean, what do they You can't get away from
that one. What do they say to that?
Speaker 2 (08:48):
No, Well, that's One of the main scriptures that I
will bring up in relation to this subject, right, is
that Stephen clearly prayed to Jesus, not just in his name,
not just through him, but to him, Lord Jesus my
spirit and ah, you gone.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
You're gone. How about that God? Oh we're back again.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
Oh we're back again. Okay, it's not right. I'll pick
up when I left off.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Yeah, with Act chapter seven, verses fifteen out of sixty
Stephen's prayer where he says, Lord Jesus received my spirit. Lord,
do not hold this sin against them, and then he died.
I like to cross reference it with Luke twenty four,
thirty four and forty six Jesus's prayer to the Father,
where he says almost exactly the same thing. He says,
(09:32):
farther into your hands, I commit my spirits, Father, do
not hold this sin against them. And Luke wrote the
Gospel of Luke obvishly, and he wrote the Book of
Acts as well, so he obviously wanted us to see
the parallel. Jesus prayed to the Father and Stephen prayed
to Jesus in a similar way that Jesus prayed to
the Father.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Yeah, Yeah, And I think the fact that Luke wrote it,
on the fact that you know, we've got Stephen here,
the account being given off Stephen's saying, is it tell
something about what the early Christians believed exactly this must
have been exactly something that was done. Seems believe fair
to me.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Exactly that they were in the habit of praying to Jesus.
And if it was something that shouldn't have been done,
then Stephen fell into a terrible apostasy before he died,
which obviously he didn't. He was a prominent leader in
the early Church. It showed that he was in the
habits of praying to Jesus. And you can also use
some good scriptures in Acts as well, where the believers
(10:28):
are known as those people who called upon the name
of the Lord. Acts nine fourteen to twenty two and
Acts twenty two, verse sixteen, and also one Corinthians one
two the early Christians are known as those who called
upon the name of the Lord.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
And you can go to.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
One Kings eighteen, verses twenty to forty six, the famous
passage where you've got Elijah and the prophets of Ball
and Elijah says, whichever got answers by fire, he is
the true God. Elijah says, you call upon the name
of your God, and I will call upon the name
of my God. And then when you look through the passage,
(11:07):
it shows you I'm clearly calling upon their gods. So
the name, calling upon the name is synonymous with calling
upon the person because the name is intrinsically linked with
the person. In ancient times, you call upon the name
of somebody, you're calling upon that person. So when the
disciples called upon the name of Jesus, then they were
(11:28):
calling on Jesus. They were calling directly to Jesus and
praying to him.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Yeah. Yeah, and in that monotheistic context there I mean
to actually say to Jesus, receive my spirit as well.
I mean, where would your spirit be going to except
back to God, you know. So, yeah, it makes total
sense that that's what was going on.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Yeah, I mean, another good one as well as to
share two Corinthians twelve, verse seven to eight, where Paul's
talking about his thorn in his flesh and he says,
three times I called upon the Lord, asking him to
remove from me, and the context is that he's calling
upon the name of Jesus.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
He calling upon the Lord.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Jesus all upon the name of the Lord to ask
him to remove the thorn in his flesh. So the
apostle Paul clearly spoke about prayer to Jesus as well.
So I say to them, you know, if you've got
a relationship with your wife, your son, and your daughter.
They'll say yeah, of course, and I'll say, well, do
you communicate with them?
Speaker 3 (12:22):
They say yes, And I'll say, well, if you.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Didn't communicate with them, there wouldn't be much of a
relationship with it. How can you claim to have a
relationship with somebody such as Jesus who you refuse to
communicate with. Incidentally, you can use all this with Mormons
as well, because they don't believe interestingly enough about praying
directly to Jesus. You can use exactly the same stuff
with the Mormons. Again, they claim to have a relationship
(12:48):
with Jesus. But if you pin them down on this,
do you pray to Jesus? They'll dance around a little
bit and they will eventually say the same thing that
we do not pray to Jesus.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
So you can use all these scriptures with the Mormons.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
And we need to scuss in Acts chapter seven fifteen
nine to sixty with Stephen's prayer. Just be aware with
both groups moments and Jehovah's witnesses. They might say this
in response, they'll say, oh, but if you look back
at a further Stephen was just seeing a vision of
Jesus at the right hand of God, which he did.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
He did see a vision, and.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
They say, so it was a unique expirit It was
a unique situation.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
He was just responding to the.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Vision and he was talking directly to the vision that
saw in front of him.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
It wasn't a prayer.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
But you can say, well, look at the context, and
a lot of the time the context really had the
answer for a lot of these things. Stephen sees the
vision and then it says the group, the mob that
wanted to put him to death and drag him out
of the city, this is after the vision, and then
that's when they set about stoning him.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
And then that's when he prays to Jesus.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
So the vision was in the city earlier on, it's
presumably passed by. Yeah. Another thing you could throw in
as well is that in the nineteen fifty New Will
translation New Test which was the first New World's translation
to come out in a footnote there of Act seven
fifteen out of sixty, it actually has that this was
(14:10):
a prayer. They actually used the word prayer. Stephen prayed
to Jesus, which is interesting. And the same footnote appears
in the more recent of his nineteen eighties Large Prince
New World's Translation edition. And there's another book that they
like to refer to which the organization has published. It
was by Christadelphian called Benjamin Wilson, but the Society published it.
(14:33):
It's called the Emphatic Diagloss, and it's a Greek intillinnear
of the New Testaments. And in this passage at the footnote,
it also has that it was a prayer, again using
the word specifically prayer to Jesus.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Which does suggest that if you read it without particular
theological spectacles on, you're going to read it straightforwardly that
it was a prayer to Jesus. Yes, exactly. Yeah, and
it becomes embarrassing for you, then you're going to try
and wheeze light of it in some way. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
And it's so important.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
This business of relationship with Jesus is so important because
what he could say to them is in Matthew seven
verse twenty one to twenty three. Jesus turned a large
group of people away and on the last day, and
he says, away from me, I never knew you. There
was no relationship with these people, that he never knew them.
And Paul said in Philippians chapter three, verses eight to ten,
(15:22):
Paul said that he counted all things as rubbish in
view of the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ, Jesus my Lord.
And he said, I want to know him and the
power of his resurrection. And John seventeen three says, now,
this is eternal life that they may know you, the
only True God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sin.
(15:45):
So our eternal life depends on knowing the Father and
knowing Jesus Christ. Now, interestingly, up until recently that Jehovah
Sweertest Bible used to read, and this is eternal life
that they may take in knowledge of you. Yes, the
only True God and Jesus Christ you have sent.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
And they'd often used that verse as an opening to
start one of their book studies with a prospective convert.
But now they've in the more recent edition of the
New World Translation, which is a silver bound book, they've
changed it to be more in line with our bibles,
Protestant Bibles. So even in their Bible now it says
that they may know you the only True God, and
(16:27):
Jesus Christ in you have sins.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
So it's a far cry.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
It's a big difference between taking in knowledge of somebody
and now knowing them. Yes, you could actually mention the
different changes in the two versions as a bit of
an interesting conversation starter, ask them why they changed it,
and say I'm pleased that they've changed it to be
more in line with our bibles. Actually, yes, yeah, and
then you can go into the whole thing about how
(16:51):
important it is to know Jesus because our aternal life
depends on it, and to know them, we need to
communicate with them, to have a relationship with them.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Yes, and I do think this angle of going into
the experiential element of this, you know, the actual relationship
with Jesus is it seems to be more fruitful than
coming in from the other door, which is things like
you know, the sort of technical stuff like you know.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
Well.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
In the New World Translation, it says in the beginning
of John's Gospel, in the beginning was the Word, and
the world was a God and saying oh, well, no,
that's not what it should be, and trying to pick
through the grammar and going to various publications to prove
your point. Yeah, in my experience, that's gone nowhere really,
whereas talking about these kinds.
Speaker 3 (17:28):
Of scriptures, it can go round and around them.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Yes, yes, And if you have a relationship with Jesus,
a personal relationship, then you are opening up the way
towards appreciating that Jesus is God, because yeah, there's nowhere
else to go, is there?
Speaker 3 (17:42):
You know? Interesting as well?
Speaker 2 (17:44):
I think one of the reasons they don't pray to
Jesus is because of their belief that they just believe
that Jesus is.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
A god, as you're say in their New World translation.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
That says the word was a God, where the majority
of reputable translations say that the word was God.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
They don't like that, I'll be so that they.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Believe he's an angel, don't They don't. They ultimately believe
he's the Michael Angel Michael or something that.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Yeah, they believe, they believe he's he was Michael the
archangel in his pre existence, and there he came to
earth Jesus, but just a man. He wasn't divine, wasn't God?
And then at his resurrection he rose as a spirit creature.
You know again as we mentioned, no physical resurrection, that
he rose as Michael again, a spirit creature. So it's
(18:26):
a totally different Jesus. He's a God, he is a
created being. So this is one of the reasons that
they won't pray to him, because.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Absolutely that makes sense within that theology. That makes sense,
doesn't it.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
Yes, of course, maybe praying to a creature.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
This is this is why it opens it up to
realizing that the true nature of Jesus when you point
to the scriptures you've been.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Now, another good approach to take is related to this
is the worship of Jesus, which is another angle I
like to take, which again has been tried and tested
over the years, and with a fact, you know, with
some results, is that you can mention about, you know,
asking them if they were worship Jesus, they'll say no
again because Jesus is a creature in their mind, they
would see it as creature worship. However, up until the
(19:08):
nineteen fifties, the organization has been going since the late
nineteenth century, started buy a man called Charles Tayes Russell, and.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
He was a man with a lot of mixed theology.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
He spent a lot of time with Adventists and got
quite a bit of theology from them, and they broke
off and started up his own movement, the Bible Students,
which eventually became the Jehovah's witness as we know them today.
But since they begin another movement under him, and right
up until the nineteen.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
Fifties, the Jehovah's Witnesses used to worship.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Jesus, that's interesting.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
And then there was a change where they decided for
some reason, articles started to be printed in the nineteen
fifties under jokes over other food the second present, where
it was stating, we don't worship Jesus, We're not to
offer him or worship, and it just started to change,
and it's been the case to this day. So what
you can say to them is, well, why did you
worship Jesus up until the nineteen fifties If you believe then,
(20:04):
even before the nineteen fifties, that he was just a creature,
that he was a creative being a secondary guard. Isn't
that creature worship for the behalf of the organization's history,
they were guilty of idolatry creature worship.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
You can ask them that question.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
That's a really interesting point, and I'm just wondering what
that entailed. You know, obviously they weren't praying to Jesus,
which would be part of worship. What were they doing.
Were they singing hymns to him or something like that?
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Yeah, yeah, Yeah, it's interesting to ask what actually entailed.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Yeah, but.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
When you look at the articles pre nineteen fifties, there's
a lot of statements. Today, again, you can go to
JW dot Facts. They have a lot of good quotations
on this, and yeah, there's a lot of documentation where
they say that we freely worshiped Jesus. There's not much
detail of exactly what that entailed. But then you're in
the fifties. In the nineteen fifties it became very clear
(20:59):
they categorically said we are not to worship Jesus. They
had something called the charter as well, which they amended.
It's the legal charter that they had actually said that
the organization existed for the public worship of Almighty God
and Jesus Christ. So they equate that same kind of
worship on the same lines as worshiping Almighty God as well,
(21:22):
the same kind of worship that is due to the
Almighty was due to Jesus in their charter that's been
tweaked and tampered with a few times. I think it's
totally different now. But yeah, that was the case for
a long time. But then you could say to them,
but obviously Jesus is meant to be worshiped. You can
take them to scriptures Matthew fourteen fourteen, where the disciples
(21:45):
saw Jesus walking on the water and they worshiped them,
And you can use Matthew twenty eight, verses nine and seventeen.
After Jesus' resurrection it says that they held onto his
feet and they worshiped him. The other it says they
worshiped him, but some doubted, which is quite interesting.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
I don't feel like the job's.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Witnesses are the ones that they've fall in to that category,
that they were the ones that doubted, writ right Luke
twenty four to fifty one to fifty two. Now, this
is interesting. It says Jesus is ascension as he parted
from them, they worshiped him. The disciples worshiped him. Now,
I'd never seen this in my Bible, my new New
American Standard version, because it's different. It's in the footnotes
(22:25):
of my Bible, but it's not in the main text
because it's a textual variance. Now, it's interesting that in
the newal translation it's in the main body of the text, right,
so you don't have to get into like talking about
variance and textual criticism and stuff like.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
That with them.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Here in their text, this one Luke twenty four to
fifty one to fifty two. As Jesus parted from them,
they worshiped him. So that's a good scripture to use.
John nine thirty eight, the healing of the blind man.
After that miracle, the blind men worshiped them. And what
I've said to the witnesses with the gods, to these
(23:00):
ones in the Gospels is that there's a pattern there
with all of those scriptures. In each and every case,
they're walking on the water, healing of the blind man,
the resurrection, the ascension, all divine occurrences after which somebody
worships Jesus, recognizing God.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
It's so powerful.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
That's a very good point because I remember them back
in the day saying, oh, that's a mistranslation. It doesn't
mean worship. It means something more like show respect to
But you know, as you say, if you have dramatic
events right that happening and then you just say, oh,
I think I'll show you some respect for that, it's
a bit absurd, isn't it. It's more like I'm falling
down on my knees and what's happening in front of
(23:39):
my face here? Wow? Quite well, what.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
They do say, They say that the word prosecunita.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
I'm the Greek scholar, and I don't pretend to be,
but I know a few words.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
In the New World translation.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
A lot of the words that are translated that we
were translated worship, but they translate it as obeisance, which
is a kind of respect. But it's the same Greek word,
which is prosgunio. So they try and tweak with it
and change it, but it's the same Greek word. So
they'll translate the word proscunio for worships of the Father
as worship, but when it applies to Jesus sometimes they'll
(24:15):
translate it as abasiment, which is just in respect. Now
they do that in Hebrews one six which where it says,
let all the angels of God worship him oscunnio him.
In their New World translation, the most recent ones, anyway,
the first one nineteenth nineteen fifty one didn't have this.
It used to read like our Bibles, but in their
Bibles currently it says, let all the angels of God
(24:37):
do obeisment to him.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
So that's the way they get rather, but it's the
same Greek word.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
They're just trying to be consistent, aren't they, with the
all it is.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
Yes, it's no way inconsistent.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
But another good thing you can you can mention to
them is in Acts ten twenty five and twenty six,
where you've got piece at Cornelius's house the centurion, and
Cornelius falls down at Peter's feet, and it says he
tries to worship him proscunio him, and Peter says, get up,
(25:08):
I am just a man like you. So the very
worshiped proscunio that the disciples were giving Jesus in the
Gospels is the same that Cornelius tried to give Peter,
but Peter denied it and said, do not do that.
And you can also use the Hebrews one six to
one about the angels worshiping Jesus. Let all the angels
(25:28):
of God Proscinnio him worship him. You can go to
in Revelation chapter nineteen, verse ten, and chapter twenty two
and verses eight to nine. It says that the angel
that was showing John the revelation of these incredible visions
of the revelation, John tried to fall down and worship
(25:50):
at the feat of the angel to Proscinio at the
feat of the angel, and the Angel said, do not
do that. I'm just a fellow servant with you in
the Kingdom of God. Worship God. So the angels recognized
that the worship that John was trying to give them
was not rice, it was not to be received. Yet
in Hebrews one six, the angels are doing that same
(26:11):
worship to Jesus.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
It's obviously sorry, you're no go on.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
If it's another word, yeah, just another one to come
to mind. I've not got it written into my note,
so I think it's started verse ace. Revelation chapter five,
I think it's started verse eight, but it certainly Revelation
chapter five is this glorious scene of all of creation
worship and the lamb, and I often say, the witnesses
using this texts, take them through it. All the heavenly
(26:39):
creatures are singing to the Lamb. They're singing to the Lamb.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
That's really important. Yeah, And that's really important exactly.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
And it says all of creation, which in fact, must
exclude Jesus from being a creation himself, if it's all creation.
But all these heavenly beings are singing songs of pray
and worships of the Lamb. It says that the elders
fell down and worshiped at the end of the passage,
and it says that the singing glory and honor and
praise be to the Lamb. And it's a song of
(27:10):
praise to the Lamb. And I sometimes say to them,
could you envisit yourself singing the songs like this to
Jesus in your kingdom hall?
Speaker 3 (27:20):
And they have to say no.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
But then of course you have to ask the question,
but why not if all of creation, shouldn't we follow
Heaven's example and do the same thing.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
And they do accept that if it's happening, and they
do accept that the Lamb is apocalyptic imagery for Jesus.
They don't try to make that mean something else.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
No, No, they do, you know, they accept the cheaps
is the lamb. Again, these are all things that I've
found over the years they really have much of an
answer to because they're really not prepared because they learn
things sort of mechanically in a very orderly fashion through
the literature. So when you get the course, they really
don't know what to do with it really, so it
can just create maybe a chink in the armor that
(27:59):
gives them bootlso makes them think.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Yes, obviously, being concentrated a lot in what we've been
talking about on the deity of Christia because it's a
real sticking point obviously, But just briefly, they are not
happy with the Holy Spirit as God either, are they?
So they have Holy Spirit with small letters, and they
seem to talk about the Spirit as of some kind
of force the star wars, they talk about it. But
(28:25):
I've never been happy with that because the idea that
some kind of impersonal force lives in me interacts with me. No,
I can't get over the understanding that this is God
himself actually deeply interacting with me. That's the Holy Spirit
and a force electricity.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
That's one of the first go to things that they
will say, they'll they get it from Genesis one too.
What it says in our bibles, most bibles that the
spirits of God was hovering over the waters. But in
their Bible, again a unique translation, it says that God's
active force was hovering over the waters. But the way
(29:09):
the word active force is just not in the Hebrew
at all. It just simply says elohem, which is God's spirit.
So you can say to them, look, the word the
active force is just not in the original languages.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
It's just not there.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
But they're so used to saying it to each other
that they've convinced themselves is really there.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
And none of them really have looked into it. I
don't think no.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
And I seem to remember them not knowing how to
deal with is it? Paul says, do not grieve God's
Holy spirit?
Speaker 3 (29:40):
Thirty right?
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Grieve? Yeah, right, So you're upset. How can you upset
something that's just like electricity, I mean, exactly makes sense.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
You can't. You can't grieve a lump of coal or
an object, or.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
You know, electricity or the wind.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
I've tried.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
So we can't say to the wind on a windy day,
we hate you wind. And the wind gets grieved. It
just doesn't make any friends, does it. To be honest,
I think that's really one of the weakest points because
I mean, anyone can do a Bible study on just
typing in the personhood of the Holy Spirit, and you
find an abundance of scriptures that speak about the Holy
(30:21):
Spirit being a person which goes far above and beyond
him being. Because they'll often say these things are just personifications,
but when you really take them all as a whole,
they go far, far beyond being something like that, you
can only be led to the conclusion that the Holy
Spirit is indeed an intelligent person in his own right. Really, yeah,
(30:44):
something I say to them, you Julian, which again is
one of these things that can catch them off guard,
which they never have an answer for. Just so the listeners,
you could maybe maybe hold onto this with regards to
Holy Spirit, so you can ask them. You can say,
do you believe that God the Father is a spirit
and a person?
Speaker 3 (31:00):
They'll say yes.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
You can say, do you do you think that angels
are spirits and persons? They'll say yes. Do you think
demons are spirits and persons? They'll say yes. You can say,
do you believe that Jesus is a spirit and a person.
Obviously it's a bit different for them. They believe that
Jesus is still a spirit. We believe that he's raised bodily.
You can just go with it, and now just say
do you do you believe that Jesus is a spirit
and a person.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
They'll say yes.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Then you can say to them, yet you do not
believe that the Holy Spirits of God is a spirit
and a person. The Son just just totally inconsistent. Yes, yeah,
that often causes them to think I found when you
say that and use that line of logic with them.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
And again, they are very logical people. They like that
kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Yeah, absolutely, yes, that's true. And of course a lot
of this what we're talking about can seem like it's
all very abstract, and somebody might be thinking, what does
it matter if you believe this and believe the head,
and but of course it does matter. I really get
the sense that what they're doing is kind of cutting
up theology into these these artificial, these contrived compartments. Yeah,
(32:05):
I believe this, but I don't believe that, which of
course is differing from Orthodox Christianity. I mean Orthodox with
a small but those have entailments, don't they. So they
can end up then saying, well, but I'm not born
again and all we have, but Jesus' sacrifice doesn't cover
me fully and etcetera, etcetera, and then find themselves in
very deep theological problems as spiritual problems. So it isn't
(32:26):
it isn't it isn't really just on the level of abstraction,
these these things do have very practical spiritual entailments for people.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Yeah, it's something else I'd like to mention as well
as sure well the taking it from a totally different angle.
It's the fact that recently they've had a lot of
changes that Jehovah's witnesses. A lot of people might not
be so aware of this, but lots of little changes.
I think what's happened is they're trying to update their
image and move of the times. Because I used to
(32:54):
joke sometimes with ones that seemed like.
Speaker 3 (32:56):
They'd be happy to have a bit of a joke,
you know, a little bit of a a fit of
humor in the conversations in the past.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
They've often looked to me with all the suits on
and the way they've been dressed like they've been stuck
in some sort of nineteen fifties time war, because when
I first started talk to these guys, a lot of
them had brown suits.
Speaker 3 (33:19):
Certainly around my area.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
A lot of them had brown suits and greased back hair,
and they really looked like they've seen fifties.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Looking like Gilbert and George do you know the performance artists?
Speaker 3 (33:30):
Yes, gosh, you know, these guys need to get up
to date.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
But because if somebody comes to you with a suit
on't it can be a bit intimidating, and people think,
what are you trying to sell me? Are you a politician?
You know that kind of thing people, It gets the
backs up straight. So when I think the organization has realized.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
This over the years, but only.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Recently have they just allowed male Jovah's witnesses they don't
have to have ties on anymore when they go out
on the ministry standards.
Speaker 3 (34:01):
Wow, yeah, the men don't have to have ties.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
And there was a beard ban as well. I mean,
you and I were joking about with our beards before.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
Before we we were talking properly.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
And yeah, for a long time, the Jehovah's Witnesses had
a beard ban. It was a strange one because it
sort of differed from congregation to congregation and from country
to country, region to region. I mean some kingdom halls
did allow their witnesses to have beards, but you could
never really get people who were in like a position
of of standing, really of authority, they.
Speaker 3 (34:31):
Had a beard, they would allow her to the great. Yeah,
it's a strange one.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
Didn't didn't didn't Charles tays Russell have a beard?
Speaker 3 (34:39):
Yeah, that's the fact.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
Now the founder had a beard almost stuff like that,
like for the Christmas is big white beard. But then
a lot of people think that historically will happened. Joseph Rutherford,
the second President, came in and he tried to create
a lot of distance between himself and the Founder, and
he didn't like beards because they reminded them of Charles
tays Russell, the Founder, and people think it was as
(35:00):
simple as that.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
So he had some new light, had some new light
on that matter.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
In books, he was so against beards that he would
either even see crucified Jesus illustrated in in his books
without a beard, and you would you would see him
being baptized by a beardless John the Baptist and a
beardless Jesus would being baptized. So since those days they
had this really really strange beard issue going on, and
(35:27):
it's only recently that they've dropped the ban on that completely.
So now, funny enough, you're seeing a massive amount of
Jehovah's witnesses with beards. Even the leadership, the government embody,
the main men at top to run the organization, some
of them have grown beards, which looks so strange.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
Tomost people that watch.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
There's a release, a release of pressure over the years.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
Now, I often think to myself, where's the divide?
Speaker 2 (35:53):
That I was speaking to an ex witness about this,
an ex witness friend. I was saying, Tom, it's interesting
because the beards and reasonably neatly trimmed at the moment,
But I am wondering how far can they go with this?
You know, could you grow it like two inches? Three inches?
You know, how long could you grow up before the
elders came along and got their arm around you and said,
now listen, brother, beards get a bit too long, we
(36:15):
need to trim it.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
Well, maybe they could find some numbers in the Bible
that might be them the inches.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
And also women were not allowed to wear trousers or
slacks to our American viewers, and they are now allowed
to wear trousers slacks the women, yeah so, and also
the witnesses who are out on their court, they don't
have to publish their or disclose the hours how many
hours they've worked as well now, which they used to
(36:45):
do used to have to fit put in a quota.
They don't have to report them now. I think that
maybe the pioneers or special pioneers which are like the
full timers, do still have to I'm sure on that.
The point is anyway, there's been a lot of changes,
and I found that it's a good way to approach
the witnesses in like a friendly, lighthearted way saying, oh,
(37:06):
I've notised because this is on their websites. They had
announcements where they've had like the governing body members say
that we now allow beards, we now allow sisters to
wear trousers. So you can say, I was on JW
dot org and I noticed that, you know, the governing
body are saying that you've allowed trousers. Oh, and Osis
you were wearing trousers now, and Osius, you haven't got
(37:28):
a tie on Aosis, You've got a beard interesting changes.
A lot of people think that they're preparing the organization
for even bigger changes. There might be some doctrinal changes
coming soon. So but what you can say is you
can talk about the changes, and then you could say
something like, it's quite interesting that you guys used to
going back to the worship of Jesus for example, again,
(37:49):
used to worship Jesus before the nineteen fifties, and now
you don't. What would you do if it was announced
tomorrow that the organization were now permitted to worship Jesus?
Speaker 3 (37:59):
Would you go would that or would you reject it?
Speaker 1 (38:01):
Interesting?
Speaker 3 (38:02):
So you could use that and you could say, you know,
how would you have.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
You used it?
Speaker 3 (38:06):
Oh? Yeah, yeah?
Speaker 1 (38:07):
Have you said that to? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (38:08):
I have.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
I haven't picked up I haven't picked up on any
answers in the videos I've seen, so.
Speaker 3 (38:13):
No, No, they've not really had had responses for it.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
But makes some thing.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
I mean, another good thing you can use with regards
to the changes is you'll probably be aware of this
Julian yourself, but I'm not sure how many others may. Maybe,
but with the group the World Wide Church of God,
I sometimes use this as an opening for changes.
Speaker 3 (38:35):
The group of the world Wide Church of God, better
known as Armstrong Is, which we've started by w Armstrong.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
Yes, I thought it was.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
He actually believes a lot of similar things. So the
witness is mixed in with a bit of say he
breaks roots British and Raelias and kind of yeah British Israel.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
Yeah. I remember when I was in London, they used
to stand around with the Plain Truth magazine.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
Yeah, the plane street fighting.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
I don't know whether they still do. I don't know
whether that still exists.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
But well, the interesting thing with that is that that
whole organizer, I mean, they had a new leadership and
he started to introduce changes. It's similar to what was
seen with the Jove's Witnesses. Changes coming, and they're coming
thick and fast as well. These changes they've only been
like ones to do with, like you know, practical things
(39:23):
at the moments and dress and grooming and things.
Speaker 3 (39:26):
At the moment.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
But they are changes nonetheless, which is significant for the
Witnesses because they're so setting way.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
But it's happened with the Mormons, doesn't it to some
extent as well, they've been trying to at least to
create a public image that is we're just a denomination
with other Christians less combative exactly.
Speaker 3 (39:43):
Yeah, No, it's interesting.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
They're changing as well, and I think a lot of
these groups feel like they need to change with the times,
and that's what happening with the Witnesses. They need to
get up to date, and they're desperately trying to do that,
but they are losing members. I think the Internet has
really killed it a lot because of the free flow
of information.
Speaker 3 (40:00):
Most people these.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Days, they will get on to the Internet and think, oh,
I've just met Joa's witnesses today, or they come to
my door, I've met them in town. Let's google Joba's witnesses. Bang,
and all this stuff comes up and they go, oh, right, all.
Speaker 3 (40:14):
These prophecies, and oh, well, I think I'll give that
I missed where I was. In the past, people couldn't
do that so much, could they.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
But almost everyone's got as to the internet now on
the free flow of information. But yet with the Worldwide
Church of God, the Plain Truth, they had these big
changes introduced by one of the leaders that came and
it was slow changes affairs, but then they eventually made
massive changes and the whole thing just splintered. Now and
(40:41):
there's lots of like little groups that broke off, all
claiming to be the true Armstrong group.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
That's interesting.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
I don't think they're very big anymore because they've been
so devastated by the splinter groups and people that broke away.
But apparently they do still exist, the Worldwide Church of God,
and they are just pretty much like a Christian organization. Now.
They believe in the Daisy of Christ, a person of
the Holy Spirit, of the Trinity, Salvation by faith alone
in Christ. Yeah, all the key doctions the Christians believe
(41:11):
in that they now believe.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
Okay, so they had to go through a very painful
process by the sound of it.
Speaker 3 (41:16):
Oh yeah, Well, a lot of people are wondering, Oh.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
No, happened again, hopefully for the last time. Yeah, it
happened again. You've got cut off, you said, a lot
of people are wondering, and I'm wondering what they were wondering.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
Yeah, a lot of people are wondering whether the same
thing's going to happen with the Watchtower organizations.
Speaker 3 (41:36):
Jovo's witnesses these changes are coming, and.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
They're sort of testing the water to see the organization,
testing to see how the rank and file witnesses will
respond and that they might start to introduce more significant
doctrial changes soon and they'll see what happens. It could
be that if they move too fast, they'll have a
similar situation as to what happened with the World Wide
Church of God. There'll be splinter groups, it will break off.
(42:03):
It's very interesting days. Really, a lot of people was
great interest to see what will happen to them.
Speaker 3 (42:08):
Interesting days.
Speaker 1 (42:09):
Yeah, really, you're quite exciting. I haven't thought of that,
and to I didn't realize that process was taking place.
I don't think we didn't know about the beards and trousers. Well,
there we are, which of course is much more important. No. Anyway,
I think perhaps we should draw to a close now, Vince,
because we've been talking for quite a long time. It's
been fascinating speaking to you again.
Speaker 3 (42:29):
That's been really interesting. Thanks.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're great speaking to you again. And
we've gone on very well when we've spoken in the past,
and I've missed you, yeah, speaking with you really, yeah,
And it is good to talk about these sort of
the technical bits and pieces in this for a loose way,
you know, it's a very unstructured sort of conversation, but
I think we need to remind ourselves and listeners that
the most important thing about today was the relational aspect
(42:52):
to this of the way in which I think getting
alongside people and all this information is good to have
in the back of your head, but that's not fundamentally
what it's about. It is forming relationships with them. And
if you're going to talk about having a relationship with
Jesus Christ and you're not forming some kind of relationship
with the person you're speaking to, then you're on to
a loser straight away. Yeah, right, yeah, I think you know,
you do model that for us, and I think that's
(43:13):
great to have talked about it. And I do encourage
people to go and listen to your your YouTube channel
where you do have some of these conversations, don't you.
Speaker 3 (43:22):
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
Interestingly, it's been a little while myself since I've spoken
to them, so I need to pick it up again.
Actually it's been a few good few weeks really so,
but I feel even just having this conversation with you,
I'm thinking, in the back of my mind, I'm thinking
I need to get out there and go and find
the Jovi's witness.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
You do you do.
Speaker 3 (43:39):
And that's the thing.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
You know, you can pretty much go to any town
center I found, particularly in the morning times, and you
will find them there if you have a little walk
around so you can be prepared in advance. You could
go and pray in the morning home, read up on
a little subject that you want to maybe raised with them.
And as I said, even if it's just to give
your testimony, as long as you treat them with Christian
(44:02):
care to see and respect and love, even that alone
will just do so much because that will throw a
spanner in the mechanism, so to speak. Because they've been
told to expect hostility from Christians exactly. But if you're
showing them love and concern, they're going to be thinking, Wow,
these people, they're not what we've been told. But sadly,
obviously some Christians do treat them with hostility, which is
(44:22):
such a shame.
Speaker 3 (44:23):
Is it just has a counteractive effect?
Speaker 2 (44:25):
Really?
Speaker 3 (44:25):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (44:26):
Yeah, So well, I say, you know, please do go
and listen to those street conversations that you've got some
of them up there on YouTube channel that they're quite
entertaining actually in their own way. I'm not trying to
say that that's what it's for but you know, it's
really interesting and it is entertaining too just to hear
how people you know interact with you and you interact
with them. So that's a chees No. Nineteen sixty nine
(44:47):
on YouTube. And we'll also just mention your Facebook pages
again that's the spirit entity Harassment support group and sharing
evangelistic ideas to reach people for Christ on Facebook, which
both are ongoing. Well, thanks ever so much for joining us. Vince.
It's been a delight to speak to you again. I hope
to speak to you again in the future.
Speaker 3 (45:02):
It's been a joy. I've really enjoyed it. Thank you
so much, Julian, Bye bye.
Speaker 1 (45:07):
Show notes as usual can be found at theMIND Renewded
dot com podcast. Music by the brilliant Anthony Rajakoff, attribution
non commercial share like four point zero International. You have
been listening to me Julian Charles and my guest Vince McCann,
and I very much look forward to speaking to you
again in the near future.
Hello everybody, Julian Chiles here of theMIND Renewed dot Com,
coming to you from the depths of the Lancashire countryside
here in the UK, and welcome to Tiamar number three
hundred and fifteen, which is the second part of my
conversation with UK evangelist Vince McCann, the first part of
which I posted several weeks ago, and as I said
in part one, we had many connection difficulties throughout this conversation,
(00:33):
which meant that I had to do a lot of
editing to stitch things together to enhance listenability. So of
course it is the same with this second part, and
just like last time, I've decided to leave in one
or two instances of breakdowns of communication to I'm going
to use that word again. It's fun just to add
verisimilitude anyway. Joking aside, Please do listen to part one
(00:58):
of this interview if you haven't heard that already, because
obviously it sets the scene for part two. But on
the assumption that you have indeed heard that first part already,
I shall say I shall delay no further other than
to say I hope you enjoy and find useful this
part too, of my latest conversation with Vince mccatt.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
I mean, some of them are lovely. I mean as people.
I found most of them are really nice to talk to.
And you've just got to go in there with an
attitude that you really are interested in them, that you
really want to show Christian love to them. I mean
that alone can really help. And last time I spoke
to the witnesses, we were talking about this earlier obviously,
you and I Julie and off the interview where I
(01:40):
spoke to the witnesses last time about my testimony. And
I'd just like to encourage people if you don't feel
that you can go into all these doctrinal things with
the witnesses, and I know it's not for everybody, but
be prepared with a few things and then just excuse
yourself and just say, well, you've got to carry on
doing your shopping.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
Most of them are in precinct in town centers.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
You can talk about maybe born Again John Free three,
the important of that you can share with them the
scripture and won Timothy two five to six, Jesus being
the mediator, but then you could use your testimony as well.
The last time I spoke to the witnesses. I just
gave them a testimony because I was limited with time.
I had about twenty minutes really before I was going
on somewhere, so I just thought that he led to
(02:20):
just give a testimony, and it really did seem to have.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
A fact he did. I heard it.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Yeah, that's right, Yeah, yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Noticed because it sort of shifted it out of the
sort of theoretical dimension of you know, yeah, like proof
text tennis, you know, or no, it says here, and
then you could say, well, no, it says here, and
they say, well it says here, and I thought, oh,
come on, where where's it going. And then as soon
as you started sharing your testimony, it was like cutting
through ice, you know, it was. It was amazing, and
that they then they then started asking you questions about
well what do you think of this? And what do
(02:47):
you think of that? So it would certainly worked.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Yeah, I mean, it's so much going on when you're
talking to these people, because you know, you don't.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Spiritual battles straight away anyway.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
But I think the very fact that there's two of them,
usually at least two of them at the heart human
nature being what it is, egos are at stake as well.
I've found people don't want to lose face. So if
you're talking to just one individual, like aware colleague, it
was a Jehovah's witness, I'm sure the conversation would run
a lot differently, maybe a lot more openly from the
perspective of the witnesses. But as it is, you got
(03:18):
two of them, there at least two of them, so
they're constantly monitoring each other. And there's like a snitch
mentality as well, where they report each other to their
elders and they can get each other into trouble for
something that someone says that's wrong or not in accordance
with the organization. So they're constantly aware of this. So
there's a fear mentality there as well. There's an ego
(03:38):
thing at stake. All this is going on, So when
you're talking, it might be that they disagree with everything
you say, but it might only be to save face
in front of the other person or people, right.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Could be preference falsification, as the phrase goes. They could
actually be thinking one thing and just think wow, yeah
inside their heads, thinking well, I better not say that,
because yeah, I have no doubt.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
And there's a lot of witnesses who have become Christians
who have said things later on when they've become Christians,
they've said, you know this guy, he's talking to me,
this Christian, and he said this, he said that, and
it did have an effect on me. But I showed
them that through my face that you know, he made
no impact on me whatsoever.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
But he really did.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
And it so the seed which grew into their freedom
from the group and into their salvation in Christ.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
So so yeah, these things can have an effect.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
So what say to people don't be discouraged because a
lot of Christians will say, oh, it's a waste of time,
will never change them. But it doesn't matter. I mean,
nobody's going to say that these guys. It's unlikely they're
going to fall down, convert to your feet and say,
oh yeah, and you think you've said is is right?
Because there's so much going on, there's so much pride,
there's so much indoctrination is watching and listening to what
each other says when you're talking to them in a group.
(04:48):
So it's only in the small, quiet moments where they
reflect later on, and you can pray that they would
remember the things you've said and the devil doesn't take
away the seed that was sown in their hearts. Pray
that it remin aims and that it bears through that
they start to think, well, maybe that guy had a point.
They'll hopefully look up some of the things you've said.
I always try and see to them as well. Please,
(05:08):
you know, I'll look up some of the things you've said.
Can you please look up some of the things I've
said or think on them a bit more?
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Yes, you know, ask them to say that.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
But I'd say to people, be encouraged, even if it
looks like nothing's happening, you know, continue with it, be
faithful in presenting what.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
You absolutely you have that servant's spirit about it, which
you clearly have, which is highly commendable. You know. I
think the temptation we have to want instant results in people,
as you say, following at your feet. I mean, that's
more to do with us than it used to do
with serving God and serving these people, isn't it. You know,
we want results, you know, because it makes you feel good.
(05:43):
But yeah, it's a slow business, and as you say,
have faithful business, keeping going even though things just look
rather bleak. But you don't know that they may well
not be because the spirit will be acting in ways
that we don't see.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Yeah, definitely, could I share another place Julian and another
found which catches them off guard? Again, I've got a
few things, but how much time we've got? But this
is one that I like to use. It's a personal
relationship with Jesus approach. And a lot of Christians will
probably mention this to them and they'll just brush it
off the witnesses and say, oh, yeah, I've got a
(06:19):
relationship with Jesus. And then a lot of Christians don't
really know where to go after that, and the conversation
normally normally ends. But what I would say is ask
them if you've got a relationship with Jesus. Most of
them will say yes they have, And then what I
normally say to them is, well, if you've got a
relationship with Jesus, do you communicate with him?
Speaker 3 (06:40):
And they'll say, well, what do you mean?
Speaker 2 (06:42):
And you'll say, well, do you pray to Jesus? Because
prayer is communication with a person. And then they might say, well,
we pray in his name and you say, well, yeah, that's.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
Fine, we do that as well as Christians.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
But do you pray to him, And you really have
to pin them down and be very specific and maybe
keep pressing them a bit on this, because they'll dance
around a little bit and go right round and try to.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Avoid the actual question.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
If he keeps saying, well, we pray through Jesus, we
pray in his name. Yeah, but do you pray to Jesus,
and they will say, no, we do not pray to Jesus.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Yeah. I've had that experience as well. I've actually had
to drop the word pray because even that can be
interpreted away in different ways kind of. But oh yeah,
just to say do you talk to him, I've found
that cut straight through, and they'll say, oh, no, we
don't talk to Jesus. We talk to the Father exactly. Yeah,
and not.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Then they're like, they'll bring up the lord's prayer to
Jesus taught us to pray this way our father, who
is in heaven hell I would be thy name, et cetera.
And you can say, yeah, we agree with that. We
generally pray to the Father, but the scriptures do show
clear instances where we can pray directly to Jesus as well,
(07:53):
and in fact we need to because John five twenty
three says that almost honor the son even as they
honor the father God.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
But they'd say that's that's honoring though, it's just honoring.
That's not talking to they'd say, wouldn't they.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Oh, yeah, they'll say that. But you can say, well,
honor must include everything. They must include praying to Jesus
in the way same way that we would praise to
the Father, worshiping Jesus in the same day that we
would praise to the Father. So to honor the son
as you would honor the Father must mean that we
pray to him as well. And the fact that the
Visk goes on to say that he who does not
(08:27):
honor the son does not honor the father who sends him.
So we can we can use John five twenty three
somewhere in the conversation, Well, what.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
Do they make us something like a book of acts?
You know, where Stephen's being stoned.
Speaker 3 (08:38):
Oh yeah, it's a good point.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
And he does, in fact talk to Jesus kind of
doesn't He says, Lord Jesus received my spirit exactly. Yeah,
I mean, what do they You can't get away from
that one. What do they say to that?
Speaker 2 (08:48):
No, Well, that's One of the main scriptures that I
will bring up in relation to this subject, right, is
that Stephen clearly prayed to Jesus, not just in his name,
not just through him, but to him, Lord Jesus my
spirit and ah, you gone.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
You're gone. How about that God? Oh we're back again.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
Oh we're back again. Okay, it's not right. I'll pick
up when I left off.
Speaker 2 (09:11):
Yeah, with Act chapter seven, verses fifteen out of sixty
Stephen's prayer where he says, Lord Jesus received my spirit. Lord,
do not hold this sin against them, and then he died.
I like to cross reference it with Luke twenty four,
thirty four and forty six Jesus's prayer to the Father,
where he says almost exactly the same thing. He says,
(09:32):
farther into your hands, I commit my spirits, Father, do
not hold this sin against them. And Luke wrote the
Gospel of Luke obvishly, and he wrote the Book of
Acts as well, so he obviously wanted us to see
the parallel. Jesus prayed to the Father and Stephen prayed
to Jesus in a similar way that Jesus prayed to
the Father.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Yeah, Yeah, And I think the fact that Luke wrote it,
on the fact that you know, we've got Stephen here,
the account being given off Stephen's saying, is it tell
something about what the early Christians believed exactly this must
have been exactly something that was done. Seems believe fair
to me.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Exactly that they were in the habit of praying to Jesus.
And if it was something that shouldn't have been done,
then Stephen fell into a terrible apostasy before he died,
which obviously he didn't. He was a prominent leader in
the early Church. It showed that he was in the
habits of praying to Jesus. And you can also use
some good scriptures in Acts as well, where the believers
(10:28):
are known as those people who called upon the name
of the Lord. Acts nine fourteen to twenty two and
Acts twenty two, verse sixteen, and also one Corinthians one
two the early Christians are known as those who called
upon the name of the Lord.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
And you can go to.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
One Kings eighteen, verses twenty to forty six, the famous
passage where you've got Elijah and the prophets of Ball
and Elijah says, whichever got answers by fire, he is
the true God. Elijah says, you call upon the name
of your God, and I will call upon the name
of my God. And then when you look through the passage,
(11:07):
it shows you I'm clearly calling upon their gods. So
the name, calling upon the name is synonymous with calling
upon the person because the name is intrinsically linked with
the person. In ancient times, you call upon the name
of somebody, you're calling upon that person. So when the
disciples called upon the name of Jesus, then they were
(11:28):
calling on Jesus. They were calling directly to Jesus and
praying to him.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Yeah. Yeah, and in that monotheistic context there I mean
to actually say to Jesus, receive my spirit as well.
I mean, where would your spirit be going to except
back to God, you know. So, yeah, it makes total
sense that that's what was going on.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Yeah, I mean, another good one as well as to
share two Corinthians twelve, verse seven to eight, where Paul's
talking about his thorn in his flesh and he says,
three times I called upon the Lord, asking him to
remove from me, and the context is that he's calling
upon the name of Jesus.
Speaker 3 (12:02):
He calling upon the Lord.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Jesus all upon the name of the Lord to ask
him to remove the thorn in his flesh. So the
apostle Paul clearly spoke about prayer to Jesus as well.
So I say to them, you know, if you've got
a relationship with your wife, your son, and your daughter.
They'll say yeah, of course, and I'll say, well, do
you communicate with them?
Speaker 3 (12:22):
They say yes, And I'll say, well, if you.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
Didn't communicate with them, there wouldn't be much of a
relationship with it. How can you claim to have a
relationship with somebody such as Jesus who you refuse to
communicate with. Incidentally, you can use all this with Mormons
as well, because they don't believe interestingly enough about praying
directly to Jesus. You can use exactly the same stuff
with the Mormons. Again, they claim to have a relationship
(12:48):
with Jesus. But if you pin them down on this,
do you pray to Jesus? They'll dance around a little
bit and they will eventually say the same thing that
we do not pray to Jesus.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
So you can use all these scriptures with the Mormons.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
And we need to scuss in Acts chapter seven fifteen
nine to sixty with Stephen's prayer. Just be aware with
both groups moments and Jehovah's witnesses. They might say this
in response, they'll say, oh, but if you look back
at a further Stephen was just seeing a vision of
Jesus at the right hand of God, which he did.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
He did see a vision, and.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
They say, so it was a unique expirit It was
a unique situation.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
He was just responding to the.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Vision and he was talking directly to the vision that
saw in front of him.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
It wasn't a prayer.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
But you can say, well, look at the context, and
a lot of the time the context really had the
answer for a lot of these things. Stephen sees the
vision and then it says the group, the mob that
wanted to put him to death and drag him out
of the city, this is after the vision, and then
that's when they set about stoning him.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
And then that's when he prays to Jesus.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
So the vision was in the city earlier on, it's
presumably passed by. Yeah. Another thing you could throw in
as well is that in the nineteen fifty New Will
translation New Test which was the first New World's translation
to come out in a footnote there of Act seven
fifteen out of sixty, it actually has that this was
(14:10):
a prayer. They actually used the word prayer. Stephen prayed
to Jesus, which is interesting. And the same footnote appears
in the more recent of his nineteen eighties Large Prince
New World's Translation edition. And there's another book that they
like to refer to which the organization has published. It
was by Christadelphian called Benjamin Wilson, but the Society published it.
(14:33):
It's called the Emphatic Diagloss, and it's a Greek intillinnear
of the New Testaments. And in this passage at the footnote,
it also has that it was a prayer, again using
the word specifically prayer to Jesus.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Which does suggest that if you read it without particular
theological spectacles on, you're going to read it straightforwardly that
it was a prayer to Jesus. Yes, exactly. Yeah, and
it becomes embarrassing for you, then you're going to try
and wheeze light of it in some way. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
And it's so important.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
This business of relationship with Jesus is so important because
what he could say to them is in Matthew seven
verse twenty one to twenty three. Jesus turned a large
group of people away and on the last day, and
he says, away from me, I never knew you. There
was no relationship with these people, that he never knew them.
And Paul said in Philippians chapter three, verses eight to ten,
(15:22):
Paul said that he counted all things as rubbish in
view of the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ, Jesus my Lord.
And he said, I want to know him and the
power of his resurrection. And John seventeen three says, now,
this is eternal life that they may know you, the
only True God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sin.
(15:45):
So our eternal life depends on knowing the Father and
knowing Jesus Christ. Now, interestingly, up until recently that Jehovah
Sweertest Bible used to read, and this is eternal life
that they may take in knowledge of you. Yes, the
only True God and Jesus Christ you have sent.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
And they'd often used that verse as an opening to
start one of their book studies with a prospective convert.
But now they've in the more recent edition of the
New World Translation, which is a silver bound book, they've
changed it to be more in line with our bibles,
Protestant Bibles. So even in their Bible now it says
that they may know you the only True God, and
(16:27):
Jesus Christ in you have sins.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
So it's a far cry.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
It's a big difference between taking in knowledge of somebody
and now knowing them. Yes, you could actually mention the
different changes in the two versions as a bit of
an interesting conversation starter, ask them why they changed it,
and say I'm pleased that they've changed it to be
more in line with our bibles. Actually, yes, yeah, and
then you can go into the whole thing about how
(16:51):
important it is to know Jesus because our aternal life
depends on it, and to know them, we need to
communicate with them, to have a relationship with them.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Yes, and I do think this angle of going into
the experiential element of this, you know, the actual relationship
with Jesus is it seems to be more fruitful than
coming in from the other door, which is things like
you know, the sort of technical stuff like you know.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
Well.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
In the New World Translation, it says in the beginning
of John's Gospel, in the beginning was the Word, and
the world was a God and saying oh, well, no,
that's not what it should be, and trying to pick
through the grammar and going to various publications to prove
your point. Yeah, in my experience, that's gone nowhere really,
whereas talking about these kinds.
Speaker 3 (17:28):
Of scriptures, it can go round and around them.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Yes, yes, And if you have a relationship with Jesus,
a personal relationship, then you are opening up the way
towards appreciating that Jesus is God, because yeah, there's nowhere
else to go, is there?
Speaker 3 (17:42):
You know? Interesting as well?
Speaker 2 (17:44):
I think one of the reasons they don't pray to
Jesus is because of their belief that they just believe
that Jesus is.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
A god, as you're say in their New World translation.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
That says the word was a God, where the majority
of reputable translations say that the word was God.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
They don't like that, I'll be so that they.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
Believe he's an angel, don't They don't. They ultimately believe
he's the Michael Angel Michael or something that.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Yeah, they believe, they believe he's he was Michael the
archangel in his pre existence, and there he came to
earth Jesus, but just a man. He wasn't divine, wasn't God?
And then at his resurrection he rose as a spirit creature.
You know again as we mentioned, no physical resurrection, that
he rose as Michael again, a spirit creature. So it's
(18:26):
a totally different Jesus. He's a God, he is a
created being. So this is one of the reasons that
they won't pray to him, because.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Absolutely that makes sense within that theology. That makes sense,
doesn't it.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
Yes, of course, maybe praying to a creature.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
This is this is why it opens it up to
realizing that the true nature of Jesus when you point
to the scriptures you've been.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Now, another good approach to take is related to this
is the worship of Jesus, which is another angle I
like to take, which again has been tried and tested
over the years, and with a fact, you know, with
some results, is that you can mention about, you know,
asking them if they were worship Jesus, they'll say no
again because Jesus is a creature in their mind, they
would see it as creature worship. However, up until the
(19:08):
nineteen fifties, the organization has been going since the late
nineteenth century, started buy a man called Charles Tayes Russell, and.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
He was a man with a lot of mixed theology.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
He spent a lot of time with Adventists and got
quite a bit of theology from them, and they broke
off and started up his own movement, the Bible Students,
which eventually became the Jehovah's witness as we know them today.
But since they begin another movement under him, and right
up until the nineteen.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
Fifties, the Jehovah's Witnesses used to worship.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Jesus, that's interesting.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
And then there was a change where they decided for
some reason, articles started to be printed in the nineteen
fifties under jokes over other food the second present, where
it was stating, we don't worship Jesus, We're not to
offer him or worship, and it just started to change,
and it's been the case to this day. So what
you can say to them is, well, why did you
worship Jesus up until the nineteen fifties If you believe then,
(20:04):
even before the nineteen fifties, that he was just a creature,
that he was a creative being a secondary guard. Isn't
that creature worship for the behalf of the organization's history,
they were guilty of idolatry creature worship.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
You can ask them that question.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
That's a really interesting point, and I'm just wondering what
that entailed. You know, obviously they weren't praying to Jesus,
which would be part of worship. What were they doing.
Were they singing hymns to him or something like that?
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Yeah, yeah, Yeah, it's interesting to ask what actually entailed.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Yeah, but.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
When you look at the articles pre nineteen fifties, there's
a lot of statements. Today, again, you can go to
JW dot Facts. They have a lot of good quotations
on this, and yeah, there's a lot of documentation where
they say that we freely worshiped Jesus. There's not much
detail of exactly what that entailed. But then you're in
the fifties. In the nineteen fifties it became very clear
(20:59):
they categorically said we are not to worship Jesus. They
had something called the charter as well, which they amended.
It's the legal charter that they had actually said that
the organization existed for the public worship of Almighty God
and Jesus Christ. So they equate that same kind of
worship on the same lines as worshiping Almighty God as well,
(21:22):
the same kind of worship that is due to the
Almighty was due to Jesus in their charter that's been
tweaked and tampered with a few times. I think it's
totally different now. But yeah, that was the case for
a long time. But then you could say to them,
but obviously Jesus is meant to be worshiped. You can
take them to scriptures Matthew fourteen fourteen, where the disciples
(21:45):
saw Jesus walking on the water and they worshiped them,
And you can use Matthew twenty eight, verses nine and seventeen.
After Jesus' resurrection it says that they held onto his
feet and they worshiped him. The other it says they
worshiped him, but some doubted, which is quite interesting.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
I don't feel like the job's.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Witnesses are the ones that they've fall in to that category,
that they were the ones that doubted, writ right Luke
twenty four to fifty one to fifty two. Now, this
is interesting. It says Jesus is ascension as he parted
from them, they worshiped him. The disciples worshiped him. Now,
I'd never seen this in my Bible, my new New
American Standard version, because it's different. It's in the footnotes
(22:25):
of my Bible, but it's not in the main text
because it's a textual variance. Now, it's interesting that in
the newal translation it's in the main body of the text, right,
so you don't have to get into like talking about
variance and textual criticism and stuff like.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
That with them.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Here in their text, this one Luke twenty four to
fifty one to fifty two. As Jesus parted from them,
they worshiped him. So that's a good scripture to use.
John nine thirty eight, the healing of the blind man.
After that miracle, the blind men worshiped them. And what
I've said to the witnesses with the gods, to these
(23:00):
ones in the Gospels is that there's a pattern there
with all of those scriptures. In each and every case,
they're walking on the water, healing of the blind man,
the resurrection, the ascension, all divine occurrences after which somebody
worships Jesus, recognizing God.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
It's so powerful.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
That's a very good point because I remember them back
in the day saying, oh, that's a mistranslation. It doesn't
mean worship. It means something more like show respect to
But you know, as you say, if you have dramatic
events right that happening and then you just say, oh,
I think I'll show you some respect for that, it's
a bit absurd, isn't it. It's more like I'm falling
down on my knees and what's happening in front of
(23:39):
my face here? Wow? Quite well, what.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
They do say, They say that the word prosecunita.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
I'm the Greek scholar, and I don't pretend to be,
but I know a few words.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
In the New World translation.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
A lot of the words that are translated that we
were translated worship, but they translate it as obeisance, which
is a kind of respect. But it's the same Greek word,
which is prosgunio. So they try and tweak with it
and change it, but it's the same Greek word. So
they'll translate the word proscunio for worships of the Father
as worship, but when it applies to Jesus sometimes they'll
(24:15):
translate it as abasiment, which is just in respect. Now
they do that in Hebrews one six which where it says,
let all the angels of God worship him oscunnio him.
In their New World translation, the most recent ones, anyway,
the first one nineteenth nineteen fifty one didn't have this.
It used to read like our Bibles, but in their
Bibles currently it says, let all the angels of God
(24:37):
do obeisment to him.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
So that's the way they get rather, but it's the
same Greek word.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
They're just trying to be consistent, aren't they, with the
all it is.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
Yes, it's no way inconsistent.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
But another good thing you can you can mention to
them is in Acts ten twenty five and twenty six,
where you've got piece at Cornelius's house the centurion, and
Cornelius falls down at Peter's feet, and it says he
tries to worship him proscunio him, and Peter says, get up,
(25:08):
I am just a man like you. So the very
worshiped proscunio that the disciples were giving Jesus in the
Gospels is the same that Cornelius tried to give Peter,
but Peter denied it and said, do not do that.
And you can also use the Hebrews one six to
one about the angels worshiping Jesus. Let all the angels
(25:28):
of God Proscinnio him worship him. You can go to
in Revelation chapter nineteen, verse ten, and chapter twenty two
and verses eight to nine. It says that the angel
that was showing John the revelation of these incredible visions
of the revelation, John tried to fall down and worship
(25:50):
at the feat of the angel to Proscinio at the
feat of the angel, and the Angel said, do not
do that. I'm just a fellow servant with you in
the Kingdom of God. Worship God. So the angels recognized
that the worship that John was trying to give them
was not rice, it was not to be received. Yet
in Hebrews one six, the angels are doing that same
(26:11):
worship to Jesus.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
It's obviously sorry, you're no go on.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
If it's another word, yeah, just another one to come
to mind. I've not got it written into my note,
so I think it's started verse ace. Revelation chapter five,
I think it's started verse eight, but it certainly Revelation
chapter five is this glorious scene of all of creation
worship and the lamb, and I often say, the witnesses
using this texts, take them through it. All the heavenly
(26:39):
creatures are singing to the Lamb. They're singing to the Lamb.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
That's really important. Yeah, And that's really important exactly.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
And it says all of creation, which in fact, must
exclude Jesus from being a creation himself, if it's all creation.
But all these heavenly beings are singing songs of pray
and worships of the Lamb. It says that the elders
fell down and worshiped at the end of the passage,
and it says that the singing glory and honor and
praise be to the Lamb. And it's a song of
(27:10):
praise to the Lamb. And I sometimes say to them,
could you envisit yourself singing the songs like this to
Jesus in your kingdom hall?
Speaker 3 (27:20):
And they have to say no.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
But then of course you have to ask the question,
but why not if all of creation, shouldn't we follow
Heaven's example and do the same thing.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
And they do accept that if it's happening, and they
do accept that the Lamb is apocalyptic imagery for Jesus.
They don't try to make that mean something else.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
No, No, they do, you know, they accept the cheaps
is the lamb. Again, these are all things that I've
found over the years they really have much of an
answer to because they're really not prepared because they learn
things sort of mechanically in a very orderly fashion through
the literature. So when you get the course, they really
don't know what to do with it really, so it
can just create maybe a chink in the armor that
(27:59):
gives them bootlso makes them think.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Yes, obviously, being concentrated a lot in what we've been
talking about on the deity of Christia because it's a
real sticking point obviously, But just briefly, they are not
happy with the Holy Spirit as God either, are they?
So they have Holy Spirit with small letters, and they
seem to talk about the Spirit as of some kind
of force the star wars, they talk about it. But
(28:25):
I've never been happy with that because the idea that
some kind of impersonal force lives in me interacts with me. No,
I can't get over the understanding that this is God
himself actually deeply interacting with me. That's the Holy Spirit
and a force electricity.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
That's one of the first go to things that they
will say, they'll they get it from Genesis one too.
What it says in our bibles, most bibles that the
spirits of God was hovering over the waters. But in
their Bible, again a unique translation, it says that God's
active force was hovering over the waters. But the way
(29:09):
the word active force is just not in the Hebrew
at all. It just simply says elohem, which is God's spirit.
So you can say to them, look, the word the
active force is just not in the original languages.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
It's just not there.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
But they're so used to saying it to each other
that they've convinced themselves is really there.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
And none of them really have looked into it. I
don't think no.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
And I seem to remember them not knowing how to
deal with is it? Paul says, do not grieve God's
Holy spirit?
Speaker 3 (29:40):
Thirty right?
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Grieve? Yeah, right, So you're upset. How can you upset
something that's just like electricity, I mean, exactly makes sense.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
You can't. You can't grieve a lump of coal or
an object, or.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
You know, electricity or the wind.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
I've tried.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
So we can't say to the wind on a windy day,
we hate you wind. And the wind gets grieved. It
just doesn't make any friends, does it. To be honest,
I think that's really one of the weakest points because
I mean, anyone can do a Bible study on just
typing in the personhood of the Holy Spirit, and you
find an abundance of scriptures that speak about the Holy
(30:21):
Spirit being a person which goes far above and beyond
him being. Because they'll often say these things are just personifications,
but when you really take them all as a whole,
they go far, far beyond being something like that, you
can only be led to the conclusion that the Holy
Spirit is indeed an intelligent person in his own right. Really, yeah,
(30:44):
something I say to them, you Julian, which again is
one of these things that can catch them off guard,
which they never have an answer for. Just so the listeners,
you could maybe maybe hold onto this with regards to
Holy Spirit, so you can ask them. You can say,
do you believe that God the Father is a spirit
and a person?
Speaker 3 (31:00):
They'll say yes.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
You can say, do you do you think that angels
are spirits and persons? They'll say yes. Do you think
demons are spirits and persons? They'll say yes. You can say,
do you believe that Jesus is a spirit and a person.
Obviously it's a bit different for them. They believe that
Jesus is still a spirit. We believe that he's raised bodily.
You can just go with it, and now just say
do you do you believe that Jesus is a spirit
and a person.
Speaker 3 (31:22):
They'll say yes.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
Then you can say to them, yet you do not
believe that the Holy Spirits of God is a spirit
and a person. The Son just just totally inconsistent. Yes, yeah,
that often causes them to think I found when you
say that and use that line of logic with them.
Speaker 3 (31:42):
And again, they are very logical people. They like that
kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
Yeah, absolutely, yes, that's true. And of course a lot
of this what we're talking about can seem like it's
all very abstract, and somebody might be thinking, what does
it matter if you believe this and believe the head,
and but of course it does matter. I really get
the sense that what they're doing is kind of cutting
up theology into these these artificial, these contrived compartments. Yeah,
(32:05):
I believe this, but I don't believe that, which of
course is differing from Orthodox Christianity. I mean Orthodox with
a small but those have entailments, don't they. So they
can end up then saying, well, but I'm not born
again and all we have, but Jesus' sacrifice doesn't cover
me fully and etcetera, etcetera, and then find themselves in
very deep theological problems as spiritual problems. So it isn't
(32:26):
it isn't it isn't really just on the level of abstraction,
these these things do have very practical spiritual entailments for people.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Yeah, it's something else I'd like to mention as well
as sure well the taking it from a totally different angle.
It's the fact that recently they've had a lot of
changes that Jehovah's witnesses. A lot of people might not
be so aware of this, but lots of little changes.
I think what's happened is they're trying to update their
image and move of the times. Because I used to
(32:54):
joke sometimes with ones that seemed like.
Speaker 3 (32:56):
They'd be happy to have a bit of a joke,
you know, a little bit of a a fit of
humor in the conversations in the past.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
They've often looked to me with all the suits on
and the way they've been dressed like they've been stuck
in some sort of nineteen fifties time war, because when
I first started talk to these guys, a lot of
them had brown suits.
Speaker 3 (33:19):
Certainly around my area.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
A lot of them had brown suits and greased back hair,
and they really looked like they've seen fifties.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Looking like Gilbert and George do you know the performance artists?
Speaker 3 (33:30):
Yes, gosh, you know, these guys need to get up
to date.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
But because if somebody comes to you with a suit
on't it can be a bit intimidating, and people think,
what are you trying to sell me? Are you a politician?
You know that kind of thing people, It gets the
backs up straight. So when I think the organization has realized.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
This over the years, but only.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Recently have they just allowed male Jovah's witnesses they don't
have to have ties on anymore when they go out
on the ministry standards.
Speaker 3 (34:01):
Wow, yeah, the men don't have to have ties.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
And there was a beard ban as well. I mean,
you and I were joking about with our beards before.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
Before we we were talking properly.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
And yeah, for a long time, the Jehovah's Witnesses had
a beard ban. It was a strange one because it
sort of differed from congregation to congregation and from country
to country, region to region. I mean some kingdom halls
did allow their witnesses to have beards, but you could
never really get people who were in like a position
of of standing, really of authority, they.
Speaker 3 (34:31):
Had a beard, they would allow her to the great. Yeah,
it's a strange one.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
Didn't didn't didn't Charles tays Russell have a beard?
Speaker 3 (34:39):
Yeah, that's the fact.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
Now the founder had a beard almost stuff like that,
like for the Christmas is big white beard. But then
a lot of people think that historically will happened. Joseph Rutherford,
the second President, came in and he tried to create
a lot of distance between himself and the Founder, and
he didn't like beards because they reminded them of Charles
tays Russell, the Founder, and people think it was as
(35:00):
simple as that.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
So he had some new light, had some new light
on that matter.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
In books, he was so against beards that he would
either even see crucified Jesus illustrated in in his books
without a beard, and you would you would see him
being baptized by a beardless John the Baptist and a
beardless Jesus would being baptized. So since those days they
had this really really strange beard issue going on, and
(35:27):
it's only recently that they've dropped the ban on that completely.
So now, funny enough, you're seeing a massive amount of
Jehovah's witnesses with beards. Even the leadership, the government embody,
the main men at top to run the organization, some
of them have grown beards, which looks so strange.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
Tomost people that watch.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
There's a release, a release of pressure over the years.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
Now, I often think to myself, where's the divide?
Speaker 2 (35:53):
That I was speaking to an ex witness about this,
an ex witness friend. I was saying, Tom, it's interesting
because the beards and reasonably neatly trimmed at the moment,
But I am wondering how far can they go with this?
You know, could you grow it like two inches? Three inches?
You know, how long could you grow up before the
elders came along and got their arm around you and said,
now listen, brother, beards get a bit too long, we
(36:15):
need to trim it.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
Well, maybe they could find some numbers in the Bible
that might be them the inches.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
And also women were not allowed to wear trousers or
slacks to our American viewers, and they are now allowed
to wear trousers slacks the women, yeah so, and also
the witnesses who are out on their court, they don't
have to publish their or disclose the hours how many
hours they've worked as well now, which they used to
(36:45):
do used to have to fit put in a quota.
They don't have to report them now. I think that
maybe the pioneers or special pioneers which are like the
full timers, do still have to I'm sure on that.
The point is anyway, there's been a lot of changes,
and I found that it's a good way to approach
the witnesses in like a friendly, lighthearted way saying, oh,
(37:06):
I've notised because this is on their websites. They had
announcements where they've had like the governing body members say
that we now allow beards, we now allow sisters to
wear trousers. So you can say, I was on JW
dot org and I noticed that, you know, the governing
body are saying that you've allowed trousers. Oh, and Osis
you were wearing trousers now, and Osius, you haven't got
(37:28):
a tie on Aosis, You've got a beard interesting changes.
A lot of people think that they're preparing the organization
for even bigger changes. There might be some doctrinal changes
coming soon. So but what you can say is you
can talk about the changes, and then you could say
something like, it's quite interesting that you guys used to
going back to the worship of Jesus for example, again,
(37:49):
used to worship Jesus before the nineteen fifties, and now
you don't. What would you do if it was announced
tomorrow that the organization were now permitted to worship Jesus?
Speaker 3 (37:59):
Would you go would that or would you reject it?
Speaker 1 (38:01):
Interesting?
Speaker 3 (38:02):
So you could use that and you could say, you know,
how would you have.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
You used it?
Speaker 3 (38:06):
Oh? Yeah, yeah?
Speaker 1 (38:07):
Have you said that to? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (38:08):
I have.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
I haven't picked up I haven't picked up on any
answers in the videos I've seen, so.
Speaker 3 (38:13):
No, No, they've not really had had responses for it.
Speaker 1 (38:17):
But makes some thing.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
I mean, another good thing you can use with regards
to the changes is you'll probably be aware of this
Julian yourself, but I'm not sure how many others may. Maybe,
but with the group the World Wide Church of God,
I sometimes use this as an opening for changes.
Speaker 3 (38:35):
The group of the world Wide Church of God, better
known as Armstrong Is, which we've started by w Armstrong.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
Yes, I thought it was.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
He actually believes a lot of similar things. So the
witness is mixed in with a bit of say he
breaks roots British and Raelias and kind of yeah British Israel.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
Yeah. I remember when I was in London, they used
to stand around with the Plain Truth magazine.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
Yeah, the plane street fighting.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
I don't know whether they still do. I don't know
whether that still exists.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
But well, the interesting thing with that is that that
whole organizer, I mean, they had a new leadership and
he started to introduce changes. It's similar to what was
seen with the Jove's Witnesses. Changes coming, and they're coming
thick and fast as well. These changes they've only been
like ones to do with, like you know, practical things
(39:23):
at the moments and dress and grooming and things.
Speaker 3 (39:26):
At the moment.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
But they are changes nonetheless, which is significant for the
Witnesses because they're so setting way.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
But it's happened with the Mormons, doesn't it to some
extent as well, they've been trying to at least to
create a public image that is we're just a denomination
with other Christians less combative exactly.
Speaker 3 (39:43):
Yeah, No, it's interesting.
Speaker 2 (39:44):
They're changing as well, and I think a lot of
these groups feel like they need to change with the times,
and that's what happening with the Witnesses. They need to
get up to date, and they're desperately trying to do that,
but they are losing members. I think the Internet has
really killed it a lot because of the free flow
of information.
Speaker 3 (40:00):
Most people these.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Days, they will get on to the Internet and think, oh,
I've just met Joa's witnesses today, or they come to
my door, I've met them in town. Let's google Joba's witnesses. Bang,
and all this stuff comes up and they go, oh, right, all.
Speaker 3 (40:14):
These prophecies, and oh, well, I think I'll give that
I missed where I was. In the past, people couldn't
do that so much, could they.
Speaker 2 (40:20):
But almost everyone's got as to the internet now on
the free flow of information. But yet with the Worldwide
Church of God, the Plain Truth, they had these big
changes introduced by one of the leaders that came and
it was slow changes affairs, but then they eventually made
massive changes and the whole thing just splintered. Now and
(40:41):
there's lots of like little groups that broke off, all
claiming to be the true Armstrong group.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
That's interesting.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
I don't think they're very big anymore because they've been
so devastated by the splinter groups and people that broke away.
But apparently they do still exist, the Worldwide Church of God,
and they are just pretty much like a Christian organization. Now.
They believe in the Daisy of Christ, a person of
the Holy Spirit, of the Trinity, Salvation by faith alone
in Christ. Yeah, all the key doctions the Christians believe
(41:11):
in that they now believe.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
Okay, so they had to go through a very painful
process by the sound of it.
Speaker 3 (41:16):
Oh yeah, Well, a lot of people are wondering, Oh.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
No, happened again, hopefully for the last time. Yeah, it
happened again. You've got cut off, you said, a lot
of people are wondering, and I'm wondering what they were wondering.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
Yeah, a lot of people are wondering whether the same
thing's going to happen with the Watchtower organizations.
Speaker 3 (41:36):
Jovo's witnesses these changes are coming, and.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
They're sort of testing the water to see the organization,
testing to see how the rank and file witnesses will
respond and that they might start to introduce more significant
doctrial changes soon and they'll see what happens. It could
be that if they move too fast, they'll have a
similar situation as to what happened with the World Wide
Church of God. There'll be splinter groups, it will break off.
(42:03):
It's very interesting days. Really, a lot of people was
great interest to see what will happen to them.
Speaker 3 (42:08):
Interesting days.
Speaker 1 (42:09):
Yeah, really, you're quite exciting. I haven't thought of that,
and to I didn't realize that process was taking place.
I don't think we didn't know about the beards and trousers. Well,
there we are, which of course is much more important. No. Anyway,
I think perhaps we should draw to a close now, Vince,
because we've been talking for quite a long time. It's
been fascinating speaking to you again.
Speaker 3 (42:29):
That's been really interesting. Thanks.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're great speaking to you again. And
we've gone on very well when we've spoken in the past,
and I've missed you, yeah, speaking with you really, yeah,
And it is good to talk about these sort of
the technical bits and pieces in this for a loose way,
you know, it's a very unstructured sort of conversation, but
I think we need to remind ourselves and listeners that
the most important thing about today was the relational aspect
(42:52):
to this of the way in which I think getting
alongside people and all this information is good to have
in the back of your head, but that's not fundamentally
what it's about. It is forming relationships with them. And
if you're going to talk about having a relationship with
Jesus Christ and you're not forming some kind of relationship
with the person you're speaking to, then you're on to
a loser straight away. Yeah, right, yeah, I think you know,
you do model that for us, and I think that's
(43:13):
great to have talked about it. And I do encourage
people to go and listen to your your YouTube channel
where you do have some of these conversations, don't you.
Speaker 3 (43:22):
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
Interestingly, it's been a little while myself since I've spoken
to them, so I need to pick it up again.
Actually it's been a few good few weeks really so,
but I feel even just having this conversation with you,
I'm thinking, in the back of my mind, I'm thinking
I need to get out there and go and find
the Jovi's witness.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
You do you do.
Speaker 3 (43:39):
And that's the thing.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
You know, you can pretty much go to any town
center I found, particularly in the morning times, and you
will find them there if you have a little walk
around so you can be prepared in advance. You could
go and pray in the morning home, read up on
a little subject that you want to maybe raised with them.
And as I said, even if it's just to give
your testimony, as long as you treat them with Christian
(44:02):
care to see and respect and love, even that alone
will just do so much because that will throw a
spanner in the mechanism, so to speak. Because they've been
told to expect hostility from Christians exactly. But if you're
showing them love and concern, they're going to be thinking, Wow,
these people, they're not what we've been told. But sadly,
obviously some Christians do treat them with hostility, which is
(44:22):
such a shame.
Speaker 3 (44:23):
Is it just has a counteractive effect?
Speaker 2 (44:25):
Really?
Speaker 3 (44:25):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (44:26):
Yeah, So well, I say, you know, please do go
and listen to those street conversations that you've got some
of them up there on YouTube channel that they're quite
entertaining actually in their own way. I'm not trying to
say that that's what it's for but you know, it's
really interesting and it is entertaining too just to hear
how people you know interact with you and you interact
with them. So that's a chees No. Nineteen sixty nine
(44:47):
on YouTube. And we'll also just mention your Facebook pages
again that's the spirit entity Harassment support group and sharing
evangelistic ideas to reach people for Christ on Facebook, which
both are ongoing. Well, thanks ever so much for joining us. Vince.
It's been a delight to speak to you again. I hope
to speak to you again in the future.
Speaker 3 (45:02):
It's been a joy. I've really enjoyed it. Thank you
so much, Julian, Bye bye.
Speaker 1 (45:07):
Show notes as usual can be found at theMIND Renewded
dot com podcast. Music by the brilliant Anthony Rajakoff, attribution
non commercial share like four point zero International. You have
been listening to me Julian Charles and my guest Vince McCann,
and I very much look forward to speaking to you
again in the near future.
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