TMR 316 : Threads (1984) (Movie Roundtable)

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Hello everybody, Julian Charles here of theMIND renews dot Com,
coming to you from the depths of the Lancashire countryside
here in the UK, and welcome to another of our
TMR round tables, this time on the excellent though very
very disturbing film called Threads from nineteen eighty four, directed
by Mick Jackson. Now, just before I play this conversation,

(00:36):
I thought I should mention the fact that it was
recorded several days ago and therefore doesn't reflect the events
of more recent days. And I'm thinking here, of course
about the and in what I'm about to say. Far
be it from me to criticize my elders and betters
in so called elite circles. But I'm thinking here, of
course about the extremely wise and unimpeachable decisions by our

(01:00):
ostensible leaders in the US and UK to allow Ukraine
to hit targets on Russian soil with nice, gleaming, expensive
attack ems and storm shadows with NATO assistance. Of course,
neither of which gamble as this is being called, is
at all hideously reckless or frankly insane, nor at all

(01:20):
likely to increase the probability of an all out thermonuclear
war because it's just to hinder the Russians and help
the Ukrainians while the West continues to fight Russia down
to the last of them. To recall a phrase. Anyway,
my little rant now being over, as I say, we
don't address any of that because we recorded this several
days ago. But I think the conversation is pretty topical,

(01:43):
hopefully not too topical, and I hope you enjoy it,
if enjoy is the right word. And just one little
word of warning, the film Threads is pretty disturbing, actually,
probably one of the most disturbing films I've seen. So
although I do highly recommend it because I think it's
an important film, please be aware that it's not exactly

(02:04):
easy viewing. So that's all I shall say for now.
So on the latest TMR Roundtable on Threads. Hello everybody,
Julian Charles here of theMIND Renewed dot Com, coming to
you from the depths of the Langshire countryside here in
the UK, and welcome to TMR number three hundred and
sixteen for the eighteenth of our movie round tables, in

(02:26):
which we are discussing films and other types of production
that have some arguable relevance to themes explored on the
mind renewed over the last dozen years or so. And
today we're going to be chatting about the nuclear apocalyptic
drama stroke documentary British TV film from nineteen eighty four
called Threads, though I have to say it's not easy

(02:48):
to categorize it, in no doubt we're going to be
talking about how we might categorize it. Produced by the
BBC here in the UK and connection with Australian TV, etc.
Written by Barry Hines and produced and directed by Mick
Jackson of The Bodyguard fame, and to discuss the perhaps
not too well known but I do think excellent film.

(03:08):
We're again privileged to be joined by our good friends
and talented friends. Frank Johnson in pro Kamala, California, Mark
Campbell in Trump's Skeptical Crawford Hello, and Anthony Rittuino at
a new address known only to himself and Wiki Leaks.
Welcome back to the TMR round Table. Thank you very much.

Speaker 2 (03:30):
I can reveal it if you want to.

Speaker 1 (03:31):
Then well that's it. You told me you changed address
and you said it was very interesting, so go on
reveal it.

Speaker 3 (03:37):
Tell us I've moved to ten Rellington Place, Tunbridge. I've
got a nice flat at the end of a charming.

Speaker 2 (03:46):
While I'm living there. It's Trillington Place.

Speaker 3 (03:49):
Now just google ten Rillington Place if no one knows
what we're talking about.

Speaker 1 (03:55):
Okay, Frank, how about you? Have you have you recovered
from the election mania over there in the States?

Speaker 4 (04:01):
Oh? Yeah, Actually I kind of checked out of it
this year. I don't even think I voted.

Speaker 1 (04:07):
So I thought you're going to say I don't even
know what happened.

Speaker 4 (04:11):
Well, I wasn't really paying much attention to it leading
up to it because I just really didn't care because
I had other, like real things going on in my life.
I'm like, well whatever, you know. You know, I kind
of watched it on election Day and just kind of
saw how the results were coming in, and I was
actually quite surprised that. I was surprised, but also not
surprised that Trump won. I was just surprised that, you know,

(04:33):
there wasn't as many irregularities as like the last election,
So I was expecting.

Speaker 1 (04:40):
I was expecting that to be some irregularities, as you
put it, for sure.

Speaker 4 (04:44):
Yeah, I was kind of expecting that. And then since
it didn't happen. I'm kind of like wondering what the
catch is going to be or you know, what's going
to happen. Yeah, it's like, oh, okay, how are they
going to screw things up in the next seventy five days?

Speaker 1 (04:57):
You know, it's a long way to January, isn't it.
That's good? Yeah? I wonder if they'll even get there somehow,
we shall see.

Speaker 4 (05:05):
You will see.

Speaker 1 (05:06):
Yeah, well, Mark, how things are you? Are you doing
any interesting question? Setting for a Mastermind and things? I've
just finished a couple of sets, yeah, for one for
the finale, which is out till next probably out in
March April twenty twenty five. I'm not allowed to say
any more about that, but it's I was going to
say what it's about, but you're not allowed to be

(05:27):
allowed to say no. All right, you can neither nor
deny yes exactly. Okay, Well, good to be speaking to
you all again. Thanks for coming on. So we're turning
to this film we're going to be talking about today Threads.
Just before we get on with that, just a warning
that this is a very disturbing film. So some of

(05:49):
what we're going to be talking about today will obviously
be rather disturbing in nature at times as well, so
let people know that. So if you or anyone else
listening might be upset by to day's conversation or any
part of our conversation, then please do give it a rest,
give it a miss this time, to be quite honest.
So I'm quite surprised that this film was given a
fifteen certificate here in the UK. I would have expected

(06:10):
it to be an eighteen. But there we go. That's
just a little warning there. So this was totally new
to me. Mark. I first heard of this film from
you because you mentioned it when we were talking about
a raizorhead. I think did you see it way back
when it was it came out in nineteen eighty four?
Did you see it then? Yeah, yeah I did. I'm
surprised you didn't see it at the time, because I

(06:31):
would have thought it would have come up in our conversations,
But yeah, I saw it. It was I think it
was on BBC and there was a week of nuclear
themed programs I believe was part of it. So yeah, yeah,
I saw it when it was on and then I
think it was repeated in two thousand or something. I
saw it again and then obviously recently for this show.

(06:53):
So yeah, it was made a quite impression on me
at the time. Yeah, yes, it's been shown. I've got
the date of the statistics here somewhere. I think it's
four major showings. I think it's been shown six times
actually on British TV. But yeah, not very many times,
and just recently, of course, being forty years since it
was made. Anthony, this is new to you, I believe,
totally new, wasn't it. Yeah?

Speaker 3 (07:12):
Completely, I'm quite amazed actually, how I've gone forty years.
When you said have you seen threads? I got confused
because I was thinking of clothes. I was thinking of suits.
This has completely passed me by. I mean it might
be that i'd heard of it but not remembered hearing
of it, if you know what I mean, but definitely
hadn't seen it.

Speaker 1 (07:32):
Frank, you surely have never encountered it over there in
the US. It has been shown over there.

Speaker 4 (07:36):
But never heard of it until now. And I know
when we were talking about having me watch it, were
you and I were like trying to figure out how
I would see it, and strangely enough to have it
for free on to be here. So I was able
to watch it a couple of times.

Speaker 1 (07:50):
Is that full of adverts?

Speaker 4 (07:51):
Though it was? It was simultaneously a little jarring because
of the ads interrupting, but at the same time it
kind of added to the mundane nous of it because
you know, the first I don't want to get too
far into it yet, but like you know how parts
of its just so every day having the ads interrupted
was just very much part of that. I guess in
a way.

Speaker 1 (08:10):
Yeah, sure, but later on if you've got the tragedy
of nuclear winter and then then you suddenly get cocaine,
really bizarre. Julian and I've got my diary enge. I
know you love hearing my diary entry. Oh yeah, okay, Sunday,
twenty third September. This is bizarre to me because I
remember vividly I went to my aunt Ruth down in

(08:32):
a cottage in Sussex. Then I went to Guildford and
saw my father's aunt, and then in the evening it
says this is when I used to live in Swanage.
Journey back and I swang shortly after. Eight Threads has
got to be the best of its kind ever, made
gruesomely realistic, absolutely abhorrent, disgusting, degrading, extremely disturbing, superb filmmaking.

(08:53):
It's bizarre that I wouldn't have put those two things
going and seeing relatives and watching threads in the same
period of a few hours. Diaries do that amazingly contexturize things, right,
I think before we get into any detail about this production,
I think we need to discuss just a little bit
about what kind of film this actually is. I mean,
it is an expos of an exploration of the devastating

(09:14):
physical and psychological effects of thermonuclear war on individuals and
society and indeed nature itself, and using the UK and
the city of Sheffield, a city in the north of
the UK, here as the stage upon which to present
this example. And it does that look a bit like
a drama, sort of kitchen sink drama, but also a
bit like a documentary, a bit like a public information film.

(09:37):
Really difficult to categorize. So this is my question to
you three, before we get really going onto this, how
would you categorize this beast of a movie? Well, I mean,
it's a drama, but I think I still find it
slightly odd the way it's also got narration by is
it Paul Vaughan. Is that his name, the one he
used to do right, So it's an odd mix. I
think it starts off with narrations. So it's an odd

(09:59):
mix of documentary and drama. And I'm puzzled. I don't
know how else they could do it, to be honest,
because if they didn't have the narration that you'd have
to have lots of characters explaining things to each other
they already know. I suppose I would just say it's
a gritty drama.

Speaker 2 (10:14):
I go with docu drama. But I think I think
I hate that one.

Speaker 1 (10:17):
I hate that one.

Speaker 2 (10:21):
Drama dramama.

Speaker 3 (10:24):
No, it's interesting because it's I wrote down in my
notes it's a kitchen sink.

Speaker 2 (10:27):
Drama for about twenty minutes.

Speaker 3 (10:29):
They even nearly got the actors from Coronation Street, didn't they,
which tells you silly.

Speaker 2 (10:34):
The writer wrote Kestel for a.

Speaker 3 (10:35):
Knave, which was made into Cares, which is a fantastic film.

Speaker 2 (10:39):
But yeah, it's a kitchen sink drama.

Speaker 3 (10:40):
Becomes like a part public information film, part documentary.

Speaker 2 (10:45):
Yeah, I think it's trying to throw you off a
little bit.

Speaker 1 (10:47):
Actually, because Stinsdale was a sort of a sitcom actor
primarily wasn't he Yeah Home to Roost? I remember it's
the sort of sitcom, But actually that came afterwards. But
we'll talk about the cast actually in a bit. Frank,
how would you categorize it?

Speaker 4 (11:03):
It really did feel like it was a documentary type
of thing. It's like a pseudo documentary, is how I
would say. I don't really recall there being narration in
the version I watched, though, So we had cards come
up that explained what happened, like such and such time,
you know this happened, But I don't recall any man's
voice in there. It is just all like straight up

(11:24):
like I was watching a documentary that effect. Yeah, I
had black cards show up with white Texic kind of
explaining what happens during nuclear winner and stuff. So maybe
I just was like so captured by the movie that
I didn't notice right right.

Speaker 1 (11:39):
Well, it's interesting that I think we all agree that
it worked. But it is interesting that the writer, Barry
Hines apparently did complain about this because obviously he'd written
a drama and in his mind it was all about
developing the characters, et cetera. And yet Mick Jackson wanted
this sort of scientific angle to come in with explaining
things with the narrator and the information being typed across

(11:59):
the screen and all that, and he was not happy
about it. And Mick Jackson's attitude to it was, well,
you know, if nobody can categorize what this thing is,
does it matter? Because it kind of works and sticks
in people's minds. You know, people think, what was that
peculiar thing I've just watched? I can't say what that was,
but wow, did that affect me? And so, you know,
I think he's got a point there. It doesn't really

(12:20):
matter if you can't put it into a box and
stick a label on it.

Speaker 3 (12:23):
Yeah, it's almost like it's a drama. But then once
the nuclear winter sets in, everyone is so kind of dead,
either dead or dead in the sense of like they've
got nothing, They've got no life in them, right, the
human drama, there's still a human drama because people are
trying to get foods. Then, but you know, like the
everyday drama suddenly stops because it all goes out the window,

(12:46):
you know what I mean, you know exactly.

Speaker 1 (12:49):
That's really interesting. You said that because I wasn't convinced
by the all Vorn narration when I was watching it
at the beginning because I thought, this is so much
like a drama, and then you've got this documentary voice
comes over. This is working the text that goes across
the screen. That's okay, because often in films you get
a bit of explanation where something's taking place and that
sort of thing. That was okay. But to get this

(13:09):
sort of incongruous voice just doesn't work. But then later on,
I suppose I got used to it. But also, as
you say, it's less like a drama by the end,
because it's also dead and disturbing. Maybe it does just
feel more like a documentary the more and more through
you go. I think you're right.

Speaker 3 (13:27):
Maybe it's also like the sense of humanity goes out
the window as well, doesn't it. It does, And maybe
like the voice saver and that is all, it's got
a mechanical quality.

Speaker 2 (13:36):
I'm just thinking off the top of my head.

Speaker 3 (13:37):
I didn't think of all this before, but yeah, maybe
it's hard to do with that.

Speaker 1 (13:41):
Yeah, okay, I'm going to push on. I'm going to
give a quick plot summary here because I think majority
people won't have seen this. Here we go a brief
plot summary. The story follows two young people, Jimmy Kemp
and Ruth Beckett. Jimmy from a working class background, Ruth
from a middle class background, both of whom live in Sheffield,
a city in South Yorkshire in the north of England.

(14:04):
They decide to marry after Ruth's unplanned pregnancy is announced,
and before long they start to decorate their newly acquired flat.
This against the backdrop of a brewing international crisis involving
the Soviet Union and the United States. The US has
back to coup in Iran and the USSR has sent
its troops in by way of response. Quickly, the situation deteriorates,

(14:26):
fighting breaks out between the superpowers, and the British government
starts to implement its civil defense and continuity of government
programs in anticipation of Thermo nuclear war. Predictably enough, normally
ordered society does not survive long. It starts to give
way to panic buying, looting, strikes, mass demonstrations, and heavy

(14:47):
handed crackdowns on anti war protesters. Before long, the Soviets
do indeed strike, hitting communications and military targets in NATO countries,
and Sheffield itself receives a fatal blow in the utter
devastation that follows. Pretty much all the characters we've been
following die either straight away or in the aftermath blast burns, radiation, poisoning,

(15:11):
and even murder, or we just never see them again,
lost as they might be in the crowds of injured
masses at overwhelmed hospitals, except Ruth, who manages somehow to
escape to the countryside and who eventually gives birth to
her baby daughter Jane, alone in an empty farm building.
A decade passes, yet Britain remains unrecognizably barren. The population,

(15:34):
reduced to perhaps as few as four million or no
more than eleven million, struggles to exist in its post
nuclear winter world, subsisting on poorly yielding crops cultivated by
hand with simple tools, and contending with the ongoing medical, psychological,
and societal after effects of the devastating onslaughd prematurely aged,

(15:54):
Ruth dies, and then as pockets of industry are gradually
beginning to pick up again, though the population remains in
abject poverty. The young Jane by and by herself becomes pregnant,
though in her case through a quote unquote crude intercourse,
such that months later she gives birth to her child,
a child that is silent still and covered in a

(16:18):
bloodstained sheet. Wow, so bleak, so utterly Okay. So, as
I said, this is ninety eighty four BBC production with
Nine Network in Australia and some company called Western World
Television Inc. I can't find anything about directed in proluced
by Mick Jackson, famously directed The Bodyguard nineteen ninety.

Speaker 2 (16:39):
Two and the very British Coup and the very British.

Speaker 1 (16:43):
Absolutely, I didn't know that.

Speaker 3 (16:45):
That's a complete coincidence. Step, isn't it very British coud
to the Bodyguard? Yes, say how versatile he is?

Speaker 2 (16:53):
It's strange.

Speaker 1 (16:54):
Yeah, indeed. And you also did The Ascent of Man,
which was a big BBC TV in the seventies with
Jacob Bronovsky. Yeah. And he did James Burke's Connections in
the seventies as well. Such a good series.

Speaker 2 (17:07):
I like that. I watched a few.

Speaker 1 (17:09):
I used to have that on DVD. It's brilliant, absolutely brilliant.
Because you spoke to James per didn't you. Yeah, Yeah,
an interview, Yes, a lovely guy. Really interesting. So a
big science interest here for Mick Jackson. He was an
electronics graduate from Southamptain University, so that's you know, there's
a background there and threads came out of. Obviously, he

(17:29):
was concerned about nuclear war growing up, you know, through
the Missile crisis and all that sort of thing, the
Cold War, but also a scientific background, so that's why
he wanted to concentrate so much upon the scientific detail
of nuclear war in this film. We'll come back to that.
He's prior of this movie than anything else he's ever done. Okay, now,
Barry Hines, you mentioned him, haven't you. Anthony was did

(17:50):
you say he was? He wrote the book that became Kez.

Speaker 2 (17:54):
Yeah, brilliant, I mean the book and the film.

Speaker 3 (17:56):
Fantastic. Yeah, that would big class Kitchen Scenk suppose as well.

Speaker 1 (18:01):
Yeah, and he's done a lot of stuff with Ken
Loach and Mick Jackson. Wanted somebody who could write everyday people,
particularly sort of working class people story for the drama.
I think it's a great script, actually a very good screenplay.

Speaker 2 (18:15):
Well, definitely, he knows it's stuff. He knows that that's right.
This kind of thing.

Speaker 1 (18:19):
It's deceptively simple, isn't it. As you say, it starts
off quite domestic with this boy and a girl from
sort of different sides of the class system, if you are,
and the boys made the girl pregnant, and parents meet,
it's all very awkward and then which is sort of,
you know, as you'd expect drama be. And then suddenly,
as you've said, it changes completely. But it's very straightforwardly presented,
which makes it the more disturbing. And you've got all

(18:41):
the people in the bunker underneath, the officials who are
just trying to get things done, and they're trapped underneath
the ruins of the town hall and they can't do
anything and speak to anyone. Actually, you mentioned then, Mark
about the meeting between the parents, and that the two
young lovers, what was the name of the really young
chap ye Jimmy. So Jimmy and his parents come to

(19:02):
visit Ruth and her parents, and it's that scene where
they just come into the front door. I love that scene.
I think it's brilliant the way it's done. It's filmed
from the back of the hallway, and yet they're silhouetted
against the glass front door, and it's just so naturalistic.
It's come in, Hello, how do you do? Shaking has
also awkward, you know, socially awkward in one sense, it

(19:23):
wasn't necessary to have that, but he includes it for
the realism of it. Somehow, I feel like the realism
of that kind of thing makes the tragedy of it
seems so much great. Yeah, it's you, it's us, isn't it. Oh? Definitely?

Speaker 4 (19:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:36):
Yeah. I mean that's rule one I one of Jarman writing.
Isn't it as quickly as possible to get people to
sympathize or empathize with the characters and then take them
through whatever you want to take them through. Yeah, And
I have to say it's very much that sort of
thing that I didn't feel was happening in the day
after the American production, which we'll talk about in a bit. Think.

Speaker 3 (19:56):
Yeah, on going to ask a question though, talking about that,
you're absolutely right, yeah, that we we side with this
young couple and everything. At what point did you stop
following their drama because you care about these characters? But
then this thing is so huge. You know, they're just
a few people. It's weird, isn't it. It's like a
showing you little life. We all have little lives, you know,
in the grand scheme of things, and then.

Speaker 1 (20:18):
Those lives are crushed, aren't they? Exactly? I would say
that I left off the drama of those two and
the connected families when they were in their flat, their
new flat, and they were beginning to decorate it, and
I think they had the TV on and the emergency
were starting and the BBC was showing its obligatory warnings
to everybody. I think all the other TV channels actually

(20:39):
had to hook into the BBC broadcast at that point,
and it was I think it was is it Protect
and Survive was on the TV and you had the
official advice coming through and that that jaunty little jingle
on a synthesizer, if everything's all right in the world,
you'll be talking about. I think it was just after
that I lost connection with those people. Although they were

(21:02):
still there running around and going from one house to another,
et cetera. Is everything else that was going on, the
bigness of it took over And for me, yeah, I.

Speaker 3 (21:11):
Like the fact that they were in the pub discussing
the baby with the TV on in the background. So,
like I said, you've got their little life with their
little drama, and then you've got like the big bad world.

Speaker 2 (21:21):
You know, she's going on and we don't.

Speaker 3 (21:23):
Really have any control over that, and you know, we
just need assurance from oh, don't worry, everything's fine, as
she said, you know.

Speaker 2 (21:30):
Yeah, well, yeah, it's clever they did that.

Speaker 1 (21:32):
Yeah, yeah, it is. There are lots of messages, weren't
the official government messages who're saying, you know, go home,
don't worry things, you know it's going to blow over
and all this incredible. Yeah, it was a good technique
actually throughout this where they were using TV and radio
and newspaper headlines, et cetera, just to sort of carry
on the geopolitical narrative at the same time they like

(21:52):
to see. It's good. You reminded me. There's a very
good bit where they're in the back of a car,
how should we say, getting to know each other, and
then at night and then from home, yes, yes, and
then suddenly you get these you don't see anything, but
you just see the reflections of lights after lights after lights,
and the rolling of heavy trucks or tanks going past,

(22:13):
and they look up and there's this huge army presence.
Military presence. I thought that was particularly chilling. Yeah, but
should it have been a bit more and probably a
bit crass, but should it have been a bit more
disaster fill me where there is perhaps six or seven
or eight characters that you followed and then you sort
of saw them, because obviously all the officials and stuff,

(22:34):
you never saw them before they were introduced together in
the office. Would it have been better to have had
different people, eight, perhaps nine people, rather than just followed
the two. I'm going to say no. And I'm going
to say that because I saw The Day After No,
which does actually follow the disaster movie tackle with this,
and it has many more characters and different families, and

(22:57):
as a consequence of that, I felt those characterizations were
more shallow and they didn't seem to have much point
to them. They were like, oh, this kind of person
and that kind of person. But with this, it's very
much the two of this central relationship, and they have
this class division as well, don't they have the class contrast?
And then the families are connected that the mother and
the father and the grandmother, etcetera. Are connected to those two,

(23:21):
and then everybody else in it has some sort of
official function, you know, like being a counsel or a
fireman or a policeman or whatever it is. Whereas I
felt like in the day after, As you say, you know,
it was it was more characters that we were being
encouraged to connect with. But I thought they were relatively shallow,
and so then when they got killed, and I'll discuss

(23:41):
the way in which they got killed in a moment,
I didn't really care. I hadn't attached myself emotionally to
these people much at all, to be honest, I.

Speaker 3 (23:52):
Think in threats, obviously you've got the Ruth characters goes
all the way through it. But I find myself just
caring about humans in general, you know, these two in particular,
these couple of people in particular. I was just thinking, oh,
you know, I care about all these horrible things I
havn't to everyone. That's what I think about it. I
think it was quite admirable how non commercial it was.
It didn't he didn't they didn't introduce any kind of glamor.

Speaker 1 (24:15):
All, which they did in the In the day after.

Speaker 2 (24:21):
Did you hear.

Speaker 1 (24:23):
Jason Robards and Tom Crouse on a bit too early
Steve Gutenberg Instead Mick Jackson's comment on the day after, Yeah,
there was a crane shot that apparently was a homage
to Gone with the Wind, and he was like, what
you're doing putting homages in a nuclear holocaut clear nuclear

(24:46):
war disaster. Actually that there's a big story about this
because when he was working in pre production on Threads,
Mick heard about the fact that ABC was doing this
TV production, big budget, I mean, seven million dollars production
of the Day After, and he thought, oh, no, my
thunder has been stolen here. I'm prepared to just give

(25:09):
up on this unless they blow it, he said, And
then when it came out, he thought, yeah, they blew it.
So they did it exactly the way that he didn't
intend to do it, you know, and I think they
were under commercial pressure to make it less hard hitting
than they would have liked. And at the end of
the Day After it does, in fact say it could
be much worse in reality than this. So I think
they admitted that although, you know, to give it some credit,

(25:30):
it did have an effect on people. You know, it
was effective. But it was something that Mick Jackson thought,
I'm going to do it differently. I'm going to do
it in a more gritty way. And I think they
got it wrong. In the way they did it. It
was too Hollywood. It was not really realistic enough. Frankly,
and of course he had much less money outer. I'm
not sure that he had two hundred and fifty pounds
or four hundred thousand pounds instead, whether he rea Wikipedia

(25:52):
or listened to his interviews.

Speaker 3 (25:54):
Yeah, in the commentary he said it was four hundred grand,
so somewhere between those two figures.

Speaker 2 (25:58):
Yeah, quite a bit less.

Speaker 1 (26:00):
And I've going to plow into the day after again
because you know, they had all that money, because they
therefore did all these special effects, and they showed a
lot more blowings up and mushroom clouds and people being
vaporized and stuff, and I thought they overdid it. It's
almost like they could play with all this. So they
thought they'd go to town on it. And I thought
at one point, I thought, you're seeing so many people

(26:20):
getting vaporized and you can see their skeletons against the
lit up background, and it was like they had to
find every single combination of person they could. You know,
it was one person, and then it was a couple,
and then it was a couple with a child, and
then it was a group of people at the university,
and it almost became funny, you know, in a strange
kind of way. I think they overdid it. But just
to complete that thought, I will say that I think

(26:41):
they handled the fallout at the end very well. It
was it became very disturbing, particularly disturbing towards the end
when people were suffering from radiation poisoning. So it did
have its strengths. I used to get a magazine called
Sin Effects, quite a leash, little magazine landscape size rather
than portrait size, and it would just go to special
effects of the films. And I do remember there was

(27:02):
an issue just all about the day after. So I
haven't seen it, but you're talking about all the images
of people being vaporized. I remember them going into a
lot of detail about how they did the effects of that.
So that does sort of, you know, rather back up
what you were saying that it was and it effects
heavy film enough to justify a long article in a
magazine or about the effect just the effects. Yeah, but

(27:23):
I haven't seen it, so it sounds a bit terminatory
or terminated too. Anyway. Well, I think Terminated two was
a better film, but that's another better Yeah, Oh no,
sure did. Yeah, Well I've not been down completely down
on the day after. It is supposed well, according to
the Wikipedia article. Anyway, it is supposed to have had
an effect on Reagan and Gorpa Jeff, and it's supposed
to have you in others and to have helped in

(27:43):
the reduction agreements on nuclear weapons. So you know, it
certainly created an awareness that wasn't so much there before,
so credit to it for that. I just think Threads
was a better job. So of course, interesting to me
was it was set in Sheffield because my wife and
I lived in Sheffield for a few years back in

(28:03):
the nineteen nineties and we actually walked past the city
Council buildings that are featured in Threads, which sort of
looked like an egg box, and it was known as
the egg Box at the time. It doesn't exist anymore,
it was there between seventy seven and two thousand and two.
All been taken down now, but it seemed very weird
to actually see that building and then see it being

(28:25):
blown up by a hydrogen bomb as well. It was
very odd.

Speaker 2 (28:29):
I think they found some buildings that were due to
be demolished anyway, I think that's right, as you mentioned
in the commentary, right, well.

Speaker 1 (28:35):
It's very clever what they did with that, I thought,
because they obviously didn't blow up real buildings in case
of the egg box and things like that, and they
spliced't didn't. They've they edited in very very quickly whatever
building it was, and then some other building blowing up
to make it look like that particular building had suddenly
been demolished by the BOS. And it is obvious what
they were doing, but it was really good, I think,

(28:57):
on that type budget to do something like that effective.
The I mean they used to do a photographic blow up,
so they take a photo of the building, produce it
perhaps three or four feet across, and just literally cut
out the holes for windows and then just blow up
the photograph. They've done that. They did, and they and
if you do it for a split frame, one frame,
you only need to you to start the frame from

(29:18):
the moment the explosion starts as you say. The effect
is perfectly fine. Two D is fine. Wow. It's amazing
what you can get away with, isn't it?

Speaker 5 (29:26):
If you yeah, yeah, okay, Well this was inspired by
The War Game, which was by Peter Watkins, which was
back in nineteen sixty six, and it hadn't been shown
at the time because the BBC thought it was too
disturbing and reading between the lines.

Speaker 1 (29:43):
I think they thought it was too disturbing because the
government didn't like it too much and wanted them to
think it's a bit too disturbing to broadcast. Maybe we'll
get into that in the moment. But isn't it any
of you seen the War Game? Yeah, yeah, yeah, just
last week.

Speaker 3 (29:58):
Oh gosh, that one seemed more obviously a pseudo documentary.
I think the genre that one was a bit clearer.
But yeah, I thought for its time, it was equally
as shocking as this.

Speaker 1 (30:10):
Actually I found it more shocking.

Speaker 2 (30:12):
Yeah, I.

Speaker 1 (30:14):
Mean partly because of this is all this is something
that was made in the sixties. The fact that it's
black and white makes it difference. And it was just
so incredibly violent, people being violent to other people and
about you know, the breakdown of society and people shooting
each other. And yes, oh it was the summary executions that, yeah,

(30:36):
firing squads and things. Yes, there is a touch of
bat in threads, isn't there? But it's very much turned down.
I think there's one little scene where you think, oh gosh,
what happened there? Whereas in the War Game it's like
even the minister comes and says the Lord's prayer with
the man who's about to be shot by the firing
squad for whatever summary execution, it's very disturbing. Yeah, yeah,

(30:57):
really really, I thought, Wow, you thought Threads was tough.
I thought this was tougher. To be honest, Yeah, I thought.
I suppose that it's the breakdown of society into another
version of society that I found disturbing. I can get
the breakdown of society and everyone living like well, the
Survivors that if you ever had that TV series in
America Survivors host Plague series, that's one thing. But somehow

(31:19):
the society becoming this awful totalitarian state thing very very
quickly because they have to. I thought that was really
quite believable and therefore quite disturbing. Was going, well, I

(31:39):
was going to say that because we're talking about the
war game just for a second here, and officially it
was the BBC decision not to show it. An official
statement here. The BBC has decided that it will not
broadcast The Wargame, a film on the effects of nuclear
war in Britain, produced by Peter Watkins. This is the
BBC's own decision. They say it has been taken after
a good deal of thought and discussion, but not as

(32:01):
a result of outside pressure of any kind. How if
you go to a really well researched book by a
lady called Julia McDowell, it's Attack Warning Read How Britain
Prepared for Nuclear War was only published last year. It's opposed.
The book very well researched and very well written. She

(32:21):
says that here it is after government officials previewed the
war game in theater two of East Tower at Television Center.
It included the Cabinet Secretary, the head of the Home
Office and Ministry of Defense representatives. Lord Norman Brooke, who
was then Chairman of the Board of Governors at the BBC,

(32:41):
said quote, it is clear that Whitehall will be relieved
if we do not show it. So I think it's
pretty clear that there was some kind of pressure there,
clear indication the effects it might have on people, but
also the questions people might ask about war policy, nuclear
in particular.

Speaker 4 (33:01):
It's funny reading between the lines that the BBC said
it's their own decision, that you can kind of just
pick up that there was some pressure there. I mean,
that's kind of sad we've had come to that point
in society where yeah, they release a statement and you
don't believe it.

Speaker 1 (33:16):
It's very much like go home, there's nothing to worry about.

Speaker 3 (33:18):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get to mention, yes, minister once reviewed,
and I never believe anything until it's officially denied. And
that's the early eighties. The citicism was already there. Yeah,
you're right.

Speaker 1 (33:34):
Oh, a little bit of information here. You know, the
iconic traffic warden character. He appears on the publicity material.
He's got a bandaged face cover of the Radio Times. Right, okay, Well,
he apparently was well unknown in Invertikov was unknown to
producers and the like for forty years, and it was
only recently he was tracked down by some filmmakers who

(33:57):
were trying to make a film with out Threads or something,
and that he's an eighty four year old retired traffic
warden and a film extra called Michael Beecroft, who said
that it was just to day's work for him and
he was completely unaware that his image was so famous
and had such an effect. There we go. So I
put a link in the show notes to that article. Yeah,
oh yes, Before Threads, Mick Jackson also made something called

(34:21):
a Guide to Armageddon, which was another BBC production, I
think the first production of its kind since The War Game,
which was Peter Watkins. Of course, so he was treading
on difficult territory here by doing something like this, but
he thought that his very scientific attitude towards it, rather
than dramatic take on it, would allow him to sort

(34:44):
of have a well, allow the BBC to have a
sort of get out of jail card free with regard
to this, you know. So he made that first, so
he had that documentary experience, a massive information as well
as the background to making Threads, and so he'd already
made that. But then because you've got the whole psychological
and dramatic aspect that he then brought in when he

(35:05):
did Threads with Barry Hines. Afterwards, I thought that I
remember seeing that. I've seen that a couple of times.
I thought it was Horizon. It's a qed yeah, yeah,
and I think I've seen it. It must have been
on YouTube. I saw and seen it in the last
few years. And that's a very similar vibe without the drama,

(35:25):
but with people playing themselves if you like it, and
what they would actually do trying to keep government going.
And it's so it's non actors a bit like Cares.
I suppose it's a lot of non actors improvising and
playing themselves. But thematically it's very very similar and quite
disturbing because it's there's no drama, there's no people acting.
It's just a documentary style. But again it shows you

(35:47):
that it doesn't work. Yes, it's the defense planning, isn't
it that they explore that, and how people can dig
shelters and put doors in their living room with sandbags
on and all this thing. They go through, all this
advice and it doesn't do anything generally speaking. There's lots
of statistics, isn't there and scientific information in there, which

(36:07):
is really disturbing.

Speaker 3 (36:08):
Actually, his original title was a consumers guy to amaged
and which is going to drop drop the consumer? But yeah,
I thought that's a good title.

Speaker 2 (36:19):
I like that.

Speaker 1 (36:23):
Hello, we've got a visitor.

Speaker 2 (36:24):
We're going to get oscars. Take on that. Don't watch Threads, Oscar.

Speaker 1 (36:34):
Please headphones on you. I was going to say, Oscar,
what did you think of Threads?

Speaker 2 (36:40):
But I don't watch Curious.

Speaker 1 (36:48):
It's all about bombs, big big bombs. Mind you.

Speaker 6 (36:56):
Know, different car bomb in Minecraft because when you're let
it some string or something who set it off. There's
a different kind of t n.

Speaker 2 (37:08):
T I'm going to get.

Speaker 1 (37:10):
You can say goodbye then from America, goodbye again, thank you. Yeah,
they speak, they can hinen through the headphones. You know,
it's all about tn T. Sorry, carry on, no problem. Yeah,

(37:36):
we did actually mention something about people who were in it,
not very well known actors. I like that about it.
And as you say, I think you said, Mark, somebody
said anyway that I think they were going to choose
people off Coronation Street, which of course is a soap
opera here, long run soap opera here in the UK,
and he decided, no, I'm not going to do that.
They might have had a bit part in Coronations Street

(37:57):
or something, but I'm just going to choose relatively actors
from me, you know, in the North, a lot of
people from Yorkshire. I think that was great actually to
do that. The only person you've mentioned Rhys Dinsdale, Mark,
But the only person I knew was a lady called
Rita May, who plays Jimmy's mom as missus Ke and
she was Jeane in Early Doors, that comedy series. She

(38:21):
was the mom have you seen that one Scottish Scottish.

Speaker 2 (38:28):
No, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (38:29):
I haven't seen it though she's born in Sheffield, and yeah,
well I recognized her and I thought, yeah, she did
a good job, as she always does. She's been in
everything basically, but I know her from that particular show.

Speaker 4 (38:41):
I'd say that having this thing full of unknown people
was great because I mean, it just sold it as
more real.

Speaker 1 (38:50):
Absolutely, I thought somebody that Mark would know. I thought
you'd pick up on the name David Brierly.

Speaker 2 (38:55):
I was.

Speaker 1 (38:56):
I wasn't going to make it all about doctor who
then go and give us the factoid. Well he played
dav Ross and Destiny of the Dance. Yeah, Tom Baker
filmed in Swanage, filmed in I Say Good, filmed in
Windspit Quarry that. But he also didn't he also play

(39:19):
the voice of Can nine, the robot dog. Oh yeah, okay,
can scrub Can we just scrub that? Because I got
that wrong? Can we scrub delete that? No? Go back,
because I got the name right, So ask me again. Okay,
do you know the name David Brierley? Mark? Actually I do.
I didn't want to bring doctor into everything, but he

(39:41):
was the voice of Can nine. I'm definitely including all
of that. I'm thinking. I'm thinking of David Goodison. He
was in another actor Okay, he was in it for
one series and he didn't do a regular impression of
CA nine because John Leason normally did it. So they

(40:01):
said the dog has laryngitis. That's how they got away.
That's true, dear.

Speaker 3 (40:10):
What was the significance of Sheffield, Engin what's the reason
that that was picked?

Speaker 1 (40:16):
Well, obviously it was it's a big city. I think
at the time it was the fourth most populous in
the country. It was certainly had a big steel industry,
chemical industry, and it had an RAF based nearby as well,
so it was applausible and it wasn't London.

Speaker 2 (40:32):
Had a nuclear free zone policy as well.

Speaker 1 (40:34):
Absolutely, and so the population would be on side with
a lot. A lot of the extras apparently was CND
campaign people.

Speaker 3 (40:43):
That's right, Yeah, Oh yeah, because you've got the protest
angle as well, because you've also got the population angry
at the authorities.

Speaker 1 (40:51):
Yeah, because there was this guy wasn't there. He was
union guy and he was trying to call a general strike.
Loads of people there. But it was interesting how the
police so quickly broke that up under emergency powers, and
I think it was implied that there was an ajuent
provocateur I was in Skinhead that started causing trouble, and
he thought, where did this guy come from? As almost

(41:13):
as if the police knew this guy was going to
be there, and it was used an excuse to clim
down on it almost straight away. Really, I don't know
that's the correct interpretation, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Speaker 3 (41:23):
But did a lot of research for this, didn't they?
Jacksonnern Hines, I think ye, he said spoke to Carl
Sagan at one point, didn't he.

Speaker 1 (41:31):
That's right, he's credited at the end thanks to Carl Sagan.
Absolutely wow. I think that was based on a book though,
wasn't it or something?

Speaker 2 (41:38):
It wasn't.

Speaker 1 (41:39):
I don't think he had any direct involvement. Oh interesting, Okay,
I don't know whether they did or not.

Speaker 3 (41:44):
As an article, sorry, right, A Nuclear Winter Global Consequences
of multiple nuclear explosions.

Speaker 2 (41:51):
Carl Sagan? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (41:53):
I think he also may have taught to psychologists as
well to talk about what might be the psychological impact.

Speaker 1 (41:58):
I lifted Robert jon Again, I don't know, really talk
to him or it was just written work, but was
also credited at the end psychologists very much interested in
war psychology and researched Hiroshima. Yeah, so Jackson said he
became a bit of an expert on all this because
he did so much work on it. So he says himself,

(42:20):
I got a head.

Speaker 2 (42:20):
Jackson and Hein spent a week at the Home Office
Training Center for Official Survivors, which, according to Heines, showed
just how disorganized post war reconstruction the.

Speaker 1 (42:30):
Nuclear free zones. Sheffield. I don't know where it is now,
but it certainly was. And when the Protect and Survive
booklets and film came out, places like Sheffield, Manchester other
places created their own booklets as a sort of protest.
So instead of being all kind of upbeat and this
is what you can do to protect yourself, they had
a rather different take on it. South Yorkshire produced a

(42:52):
booklet that was the same colours and he had things
like this in it. I'm just going to read from this.
We can get my light around here, thought was rather
darkly amusing. John is on his shift in a Sheffield
engineering works when the bomb explodes in seconds, the works
are totally devastated, by the blast and intense heated explosion.
His wife, Katie and their children are at home in Burnngreave.

(43:13):
They too are killed instantly. The whole area is unrecognizable.
Roads and railways are obliterated, cars melt, and the River
Don and River Sheaf boil dry. Eight of Sheffield's hospitals
are destroyed. No help can be provided sorry for the
few survivors, and they are left to die. So that's
rather different take on protect and survive, isn't it, But

(43:34):
more truthful.

Speaker 4 (43:36):
Yeah, at least no illusions that you're going to be
all right after that.

Speaker 1 (43:39):
Yeah, exactly, Frank, Because this is the I think the
big thing with this is that you can make all
these preparations and if you happen to be far enough out, yeah,
you might survive for a while if you don't get
radiation poisoning out of the fallout. But then even if
you do survive, the world has become so desolate that
the chances of you or your descendants having any kind

(44:01):
of life worth living is pretty small, isn't it. It's
absolutely devastating.

Speaker 4 (44:07):
Not like that movie The Road if I don't remember
when that came out. Have you guys seen.

Speaker 1 (44:12):
That what's that? Which one the road?

Speaker 4 (44:15):
It's based on a book by Cormick McCarthy had Vigo
Martinsen in it, and basically him and his son are
like this survivor from some sort of event. We don't
find out what the event was, but basically all food
has been wiped out and most of humanity is like
roving bands of cannibals, and so he's trying to go
with his son from like a cold area to a
warmer area, and just it's like a constant survival. And

(44:37):
it's like, probably the only movie I've seen that's probably
more bleak than this one. But you know, this is
right up there with it, I think.

Speaker 1 (44:45):
But no, I've not seen that. Why sure, why make
films like this? You know?

Speaker 4 (44:51):
Is it? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (44:52):
But I think it's very important to do so because
surely the purpose of it really is not to just
shock people, but to make peop people think, Look, is
there any way in which we can avoid this? Can
we make political decisions, you know, in the way we
vote and the way we protest or whatever it is,
in order to steer things in the right direction, you know,

(45:13):
So you're going to vote against war, and you're going
to protest against the periferation of weapons of mass destruction,
because I mean, I do think it's true that. You know,
when I was growing up in the nineteen eighties, people
talked about this a lot, the danger of nuclear weapons
and CND was big news, and it was Greedham Common
and all this, and it was constantly on the news,

(45:33):
wasn't it, you know, and coming up in question Time
and on Newsnight and all these big programs, et cetera.
But you know, in recent decades it's been forgotten about.
I think it's only been in recent a couple of
last couple of years. I think because what's been going
on in Ukraine that people have been talking about it
more that oh heavens, these nuclear weapons are still there,
and I think now the doomsday clock is closer than

(45:54):
it's ever been. So I think it's it is really
important for all of us to be reminded of this
stock reality that's danger, so that you know, hopefully we
can make whatever decisions we can away from tensions. You know, Yeah,
I know we're relatively powerless, but you know, we're not
completely powerless. We do make some decisions in life collective.

Speaker 4 (46:16):
This whole topic has been coming up with Russell Brand
a lot. I don't I don't listen to him a time,
but he's had a few videos I checked in on recently,
and he was before the US election. He was talking about,
you know, will people vote for the party who wants
to have peace and negotiator, will they just vote for
more of the same kind of deep state stuff that's
going to push us to nuclear war, And like he

(46:36):
made mention that he didn't want his kids to grow
up in a world that's been destroyed like this, you know,
and if the people here in America, not to make
this about the stupid election here, but like if people
here knew which of the parties was like pushing for
nuclear war with what's going on in Ukraine, or you know,
pushing towards escalating tensions, you know, they maybe won't vote
the way they did. I think he was pushing towards

(46:58):
that the Harris administration would base continue to escalate matters
and rather than finding a way for peace. And so
that's my.

Speaker 1 (47:07):
I tend to think he's right.

Speaker 4 (47:09):
Yeah, I kind of agree with him too, And he
you know, he was basically getting to the point where
like people are going to vote for her because they
think that she has the feel good policies and whatever,
but without taking into account that, hey, this could get
us into nuclear devastation. You know. So I think this
movie is very I think it should be required viewing
pretty much, you know, and then also with like a

(47:30):
warning label, Hey, which politicians are like moving us in
this direction?

Speaker 1 (47:35):
Yeah, required viewing for anybody who is over fifteen or
perhaps over eighty if you can stomach it.

Speaker 2 (47:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (47:45):
Were there any other scenes that you wanted to highlight?
I know we've talked about somebody. I've got loads here.

Speaker 2 (47:51):
Do anything else as well?

Speaker 1 (47:52):
Yeah? Go on, Anthony.

Speaker 3 (47:54):
I think the woman with the staring eyes, who's still
holding a burned baby. I'm not easily shocked, but I
mean that was just.

Speaker 1 (48:04):
So simple, so effective.

Speaker 2 (48:06):
And the hospital scene.

Speaker 3 (48:08):
I haven't seen The Day Day After as an American one,
but apparently there's a hospital scene in that that's completely different.
But this is more likely what I've heard about Gaza.
You know what's been happening in Gaza with no anesthetic?
And I think running water. Yeah, I think the director
was saying that in this scene, people are having you know,

(48:29):
limbs amputated without that aesthetic. You made a jobt The
didn't even have any whiskey to you know, to use. Yeah,
that was that one. And then I thought the use
of rats, because they're always very effective, aren't they. And
obviously the scene where so I was being very naive.

Speaker 2 (48:47):
I didn't realize she was selling her body for some rats.
Is that right? Apparently I had to do it all right.

Speaker 1 (48:52):
I didn't think, Okay, they were standing in front of
that billboard, weren't they. That's the scene, isn't it Standard
life for all your life? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (49:00):
I was wondering whether they were going to use humor
and whether they're going to use it approxriately.

Speaker 2 (49:04):
And the thing about the billboard, it's completely pristine.

Speaker 3 (49:06):
I think, isn't it picture a very healthy toddler, standard
life for all your life?

Speaker 1 (49:13):
Yeah? I thought, yeah, So she buys however she buys it.
She buys these dead rats that he's selling. This is
Ruth the young lady, and she puts them in a
gateway supermarket back. It's got the line on it good for.

Speaker 2 (49:27):
You, amazing.

Speaker 3 (49:31):
And then when she gets gives birth of course, so
I'm stealing all the scenes from all of you. But
gives birth, of course, and you've just got that dog
that's tied up and growling.

Speaker 2 (49:40):
I don't know what the connection was, but that was effective.

Speaker 1 (49:43):
It was, I wondered. Yeah, yeah, oh definitely, because we
get the stable, you get a tableau, don't when it
says twenty Sunday, the twenty fifth of December over the
screen and you get a Nativity? Of course, Yeah, it's
a kind of Nativity grotesque because you get all these
assorted characters on a stand, someone kneeling around a glowing campfire.
You've got the baby crying unlike in a way in

(50:05):
a manger, you know, little Lord Jesus no crying he makes, Yeah,
crying he makes. And the people are you know, they're
not joyful or contented. They're shivering and silent and joyless faces.
It's horrid. I didn't get that. It's obvious, isn't it
when you say it right? Well, the fact it says
Sunday the twenty fifth of December should have been the giveaway.

(50:25):
But perhaps you turned away that mark.

Speaker 3 (50:28):
Yeah, I was turning away a bit towards the end. Well,
tough the second time is a tough watch. It was
actually worse because I knew what was coming. Yeah, couldn't
take anymore.

Speaker 1 (50:38):
No, But as we said, these grotesque ironies that are
throughout the production, they do work really well, don't they
if you notice them, which I did, sorry make.

Speaker 3 (50:52):
And the opening scene of course with despider Society, everything connects.

Speaker 2 (50:58):
Yeah, that's good, good beginning.

Speaker 1 (50:59):
Yeah, do you know it's really weird. But the first
time I've seen it twice. The first time I didn't
pick up on the fact that it was a thread,
that the spider was spinning, spinning a web, but I
didn't think of it as a thread. And you do
see that clearly, that thread, don't you, with the droplets
of moisture on it. Very odd, but I didn't see that. Yeah,
our lives are woven together in a fabric.

Speaker 3 (51:20):
When they're all watching that kid's TV program towards it.
That was weird, wasn't it strange?

Speaker 1 (51:26):
Yeah, that was a great scene. Actually, Yeah, that's very
similar to scene in Terminator where they're watching it's exactly
the same setup. After they're watching and flickering images on
this television and then the camera sort of pans around
and it's just some flames. They're just burning some stuff
inside a television set and they're watching the flames. Yeah, yeah,

(51:46):
it's a brilliant image. I think you've got a group
of Oh it's words and pictures. It's a schools production.
I looked it up and yeah I remember it. Yeah,
it's for five to seven year olds and it was
made for about it made since the nineteen seventies for
about thirty odd years. But when all the children in
that particular scene are older than five to seven and

(52:09):
they're watching this on a TV in some public hall
that's working on a generator or something, they've got an
old VHS video of it, haven't they clearly, And it
has all this upbeat music and you know, upbeat presenter style.
And then they're not mouthing the words, are they they're
just watching. But there's an older lady at the back
who can remember how to speak, and she's mouthing the

(52:30):
words kind of like a child. It's also amazingly upside down.

Speaker 2 (52:34):
Yeah. Yeah, she's memorized it, I think, right right.

Speaker 1 (52:38):
I thought I got the idea that they just endlessly
watched this and she's memorized it.

Speaker 2 (52:42):
That's what mean.

Speaker 1 (52:42):
Yeah, ye see, they don't know how to speak. They
perhaps know some words, but it's alien to them to
communicate in such a articulate way. That's really disturbing. Did
everybody pick up on the plug and socket in that scene.

Speaker 2 (52:57):
The second time that point?

Speaker 1 (52:59):
To be honest, I think I turned around again. Sorry,
I'm looking to live that one down now. No, it
was just that you see these kids watching this TV
in this old school hall or whatever it is, and
you hear a drip from the ceiling with a broken light,
water dripping down, and then yeah, yeah, what you just
see how they've hooked up the TV to the electricity,

(53:21):
and you see a socket hanging down from the ceiling
and the plug from the TV joined and it's in
the middle of the screen. And I thought, that's just
one little thread connected up again from the old world,
just one tiny thread, And how much work it was
to reconnect just one thread. I don't know what you
meant that. That's what it said to me at that moment. Hmm.

Speaker 4 (53:42):
I was kind of surprised that young boys game from
the beginning of the movie was still working after that.

Speaker 1 (53:51):
Or whatever.

Speaker 4 (53:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (53:52):
Yeah, I must admit I was engaging in a bit
of nostalgia because I was born in seventy five, so
I sort of grew up in the eighties, Leslie Jardin
all that.

Speaker 1 (54:00):
Yes, she was on the news, wasn't she news presenter?

Speaker 3 (54:04):
Yeah, all the you know, the very period everything, you know,
computer games, TV everything.

Speaker 1 (54:09):
Yeah, because of course they weren't allowed to use that
for a long, long long time. They weren't allowed to
use current news presenters in drama series in case people thought,
oh my goodness, this is real. So they either had
former newsreaders or people who were pretending to be newsreaders.
That went on for a long long time. I think
it's finally changing a bit now and we're giving people

(54:29):
a bit more intelligence perhaps, But yeah, there was a
dictator and certainly know the BBC that they weren't allowed
to use current newsreaders. Hence Leslie Jada the War of
the World thing.

Speaker 3 (54:38):
I was just going to say, yeah, I think Meg
Jackson mentioned that.

Speaker 1 (54:43):
He meant, well, just in case people cheered in and think,
oh no, aged I better get some tins in.

Speaker 3 (54:51):
The Other thing was they realized at some point that
money had no value. Just happened to have a famous
saying here, when the last tree has been cut down,
the last fish caught, the last river poisoned. Only then
when we realize that you cannot eat money.

Speaker 2 (55:05):
So there you go.

Speaker 1 (55:07):
They didn't actually do that, did they. I'm glad they
didn't do that, like somebody trying to give money for something.

Speaker 3 (55:12):
Is no good here, sir, Yes, do something like that.
What about when they're eating they cut out the sheep
as well?

Speaker 4 (55:20):
Oh yeah, that was one that stuck with me for sure. Yeah.
They find the sheep and then they're like, did it
die from cold or radiation?

Speaker 2 (55:32):
Take?

Speaker 3 (55:32):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (55:33):
Yeah, but the denial as well, because I think he says, oh,
but you'd be able to taste it. Wouldn't you able
to taste radiation? It's so hungry? He makes excuses, you
know you would. I think, Yeah, you've got to die
of starvation first, haven't you. My favorite scene, my absolute
favorite scene in the whole thing rescuing artworks. Did you
see that. There's some gallery or something and there are

(55:55):
these two guys and they're very quietly and serenely taking
artworks I think, off the wall and putting them into
storage ready for nuclear holocaust. And there's something darkly ironic
about that, as if no matter how deep you store
these things, whether anybody would ever know where they are,
care or about them, whether they have any value in

(56:16):
the new world that have been stripped of all artistic sensibility.
It's like it doesn't matter, you know. That's what would happen.
These artworks would be saved, but there'd be no world
for them to be enjoyed in thereafter. I think that
was a nice touch. None of that needed to be said.
You just saw them rescuing these art Yeah, it's interesting.
At what point do all the rules go out the window.

(56:36):
It's almost like you know, on the Titanic, every man
for himself. Suddenly it ceases to matter because it's just survival.

Speaker 4 (56:44):
Yeah, we have a here in America that reminds me,
you know, after storying these artworks we have. You guys
probably know about it. But deep in some mountain in
like Colorado or whatever, they have like a huge vault
where they have stored all of these movies that are
historically significant. They started there in case there's like ever
a nuclear things, so they're preserved so called forever, you know.

(57:06):
So like they do have such a thing like that
already so they won't have to do it last minute.

Speaker 1 (57:10):
I guess is that what Charlton Heston finds in planets
of the apes at the end of the film copies
something you find some old artifacts, the v h VHS
copies of weekend of Bernie's.

Speaker 3 (57:34):
There any other dark humor in it? Or was it
just that billboard and maybe the gateway you've got.

Speaker 1 (57:39):
E T of course the ET moment, that's right, remember, yes,
I do. Yes, Well, it's when the bomb drops and
you get lots of these very quick shots of unidentifiable
things burning, and then there's a shot that looks at
first like a person a child burning, and it's actually
the plastic dummy of ET, which is absolutely massive at

(58:01):
the time eighty three eighty four. So I think that's
a comment on consumerism, if ever there was one. But
it's only on for about half a second, so you think, oh,
you know, well, I remember, I think it was controversial.
There was I remember reading about it because people sort
of not offensive, but sort of almost more disturbing than
the person wire. And then later on I think there

(58:21):
are some scenes I'd forgotten where you see and you
can't it's so dark, literally the scenes after the bomb,
isn't it, And it's you can't tell quite what you're
looking at. Sometimes you're just looking at rubble and then
suddenly through the rubber you see, Oh my goodness, there's
a there's a body just there, just sort of, you know,
just lying there, and you think, oh, is that a face.

(58:41):
Oh gosh, it just suddenly appears, doesn't it. Yeah, well,
it's just there. You're sort of watching so slap moving around,
and then oh, okay they haven't they haven't noticed it,
but I've just seen there's you know, there's a body
just there, burnt or hands sticking up on the yeah,
after coming off the fingers and things like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually,
that whole bomb drop sequence I thought was incredibly well handled.

(59:04):
Actually that's where you get that scene where the woman
is urinating in the road, which is you know, if
you didn't know, oh that's a humorous moment, it's not
at all. It just brings it home to you. The
you know, the sheer, absolute fear. You get the bright light,
of course, first of all, and then you get these

(59:25):
blasts of wind. Now when you get that bright light
or is it the heat, I'm not sure. Anyway, you
get no sound, and there's ye she's calling for Michael,
her child, Michael, Michael. And then suddenly there's this bright
light and they turn the sound off, and I thought
that was a brilliant moment because that was my moment plied.

(59:46):
It implies obviously lights, but also heat as well. And
then they turn the sound back on for the blast. Wow,
is that a moment? You know that that was really
well handled. That was my standout moment I think, was it? Yeah? Well,
I think anything she screams, doesn't she, And you don't
hear the scream because it all goes silent. But you

(01:00:06):
never get silence on television, except, you know, so rarely.
I mean complete silence. You might get characters not talking,
but you're gett an ambient noise, but just to go
completely silent and then what you're seeing on screen is
terrible and then not having anything to go with it.

Speaker 2 (01:00:22):
I think when you.

Speaker 3 (01:00:22):
See someone screaming and there's no noise, Yeah, effective, isn't it.
They've got a certain look on their face. It's almost
affective than the sound.

Speaker 2 (01:00:31):
Of a screen.

Speaker 1 (01:00:32):
Yeah, you see her for a split second, but then
she bleaches out because of the light, doesn't she? And
then I can only assume it's a kind of psychological
silence in the sense that there would have been sound,
but anybody around at that moment, wouldn't have been paying
any attention to the sound because of the light and
the heat, you know what I mean, wouldn't you out
all your other senses. But presumably it would be so

(01:00:53):
loud or so violent if it causes windows to break,
your ear drummers might just you know, so like you know,
I quite like dramas when a bomb has gone off
and you get this sort of high pitched wine on
the soundtrack, that's just your ears, you know. Then after
a fash as the bomb, I guess it's similar to that,
we're just blowing your ear drums for a few seconds.
You would have not heard anything until your eyes melted.

Speaker 2 (01:01:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:01:19):
Is there a similar moment in the war game? When
the bomb drops? You certainly get a very bright light.
Does it go quiet? Does it go silent? Then? I
did see it, but I don't remember once.

Speaker 2 (01:01:28):
I'm not sure.

Speaker 3 (01:01:30):
I think they made a decision to have that kind
of wind, you know, of the Nuclear Winter. It's pretty
much on the soundtrack I think for most of the
rest of the film. Yeah, I think they said that.
And obviously there's no there was music at the beginning.
There was like even music in the pub and stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:01:46):
That's right. They start off with some music that you know,
there's this thing of diegesis, isn't there. That's the that's right.
So you hear that. They hear that, the characters inside
the movie, you actually hear that. Yeah. But at the
only moment they didn't do that, as you say, was
at the beginning when they played a little bit of
Richard Strauss's Alpine Symphony, which of course is all about

(01:02:07):
nature connecting with the spider's web, and of course from
nature is a big part of this. It's nature that
gets vastly disturbed as well, not just human life. But yeah,
but then the rest of it, it's all this diagetic stuff,
isn't it.

Speaker 2 (01:02:19):
It's I've got a I've got a question.

Speaker 3 (01:02:21):
Actually, is there any particular reason why they play Johnny
b Good? Three times they play it, they play at
the end that the somewhere near the end.

Speaker 1 (01:02:32):
Yes, she's going off to the hospital, and it just
somebody's playing some chuck Berry in the background.

Speaker 2 (01:02:36):
Why chuck Berry?

Speaker 4 (01:02:37):
What?

Speaker 2 (01:02:38):
I don't they have any significance a part of it
being sort of classic.

Speaker 4 (01:02:41):
I think maybe it's because it's like such a universally
known song. You know, like just about everybody probably knows that,
and then maybe that's like you hear that, you definitely
know it's from the old world before the bomb, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:02:54):
Yeah, a care free world.

Speaker 4 (01:02:56):
Yeah, a care free world.

Speaker 1 (01:02:58):
Definitely.

Speaker 3 (01:02:58):
I wonder whether they didn't have some contemporary hit there,
you know, like an eighties hit there everyone would.

Speaker 4 (01:03:03):
Know, probably cost too much money.

Speaker 7 (01:03:05):
Yeah, yeah, what did you make of the I quite
liked it, But what did you make of the So
you've got the Kemp family, the working class family, and
the next door neighbors are packing their car to go
off to the countryside.

Speaker 1 (01:03:21):
I think it's to Lincolnshire, whereas the camps of deciding
to stay put. And I think the next door neighbors say,
you know, it's a better chance of surviving in the country,
isn't it? Something like that? Mister Kemp the expression of
his face is kind of maybe they're right, But I
don't know. The milk bottles have been delivered and I'm
going to pick them up off off the doorstep, you know,
everything's still working kind of thing. But later on, I'm

(01:03:41):
not sure is it Later on he does he say
something like or I wish I'd gone to the countryside
or something. I don't know. I'm not sure about that I.

Speaker 3 (01:03:50):
Remember, but yeah, it's an interesting thing because some people
want to take action and some people think it's better
to stay where you are somehow seems easier in a way. Yeah,
and it's that clinging on to normal life, like you know,
the milk bottles and everything. Yeah, it's really interesting, very effective,
which melt in the Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:04:11):
Yeah, you also had the government telling people to shelter
in place, I think too, so like you know, sort
of the everything will be okay kind of thing, and
you're like, yeah, it's really bad. Then they'd tell us
to leave, you know, so I guess, you know, let's
let's wait it out.

Speaker 1 (01:04:25):
You know. Well, the police tell them that they get
onto the motorway and then the motorways are shut down
under emergency powers, which apparently the kind of thing would
happen those those roads. The motorways would be used for
official vehicles and you'd be pushed onto minor roads, which
of course would all be blocked anyway, that the police
caught up with these neighbors and said, you know, I
can tell you how to get onto a minor road,
but you'd be better off going home, sir. And of

(01:04:48):
course I suppose the vibe one gets from this is
the question of, well, would it really be better in
the countryside, because even if you'd survived the blast, then
you've got all the tragedy to cope with afterwards.

Speaker 3 (01:04:59):
Yeah, I see why people would want to stay with
what they know almost Yeah, no one quite knows what's
going on. They nice something awfuls happening, but they're still
relying on information from the you know, the authorities. How
serious is this? It looks serious? But you know, can
you tell us to stay at home? You know, we
need that reassurance.

Speaker 4 (01:05:17):
Well, I mean you sort of did see some of
this during like twenty twenty, you know, when everybody was
locked down, and you kind of see people kind of
like still staying in place and trying to still live normally,
but still trying to follow the guidelines to like not
go out and whatever, and so yeah, watching doorknobs and stuff.

(01:05:38):
So so, I mean you kind of see that this
would be something that would happen.

Speaker 2 (01:05:42):
You know, I was thinking about COVID when I was
watching this.

Speaker 4 (01:05:44):
Yeah, it's not quite a parallel, but there was definitely
some things that were similar. So here we are in
a crisis, you know, Okay, everybody shelter in place, and
then like, thankfully it wasn't worse during COVID, you know,
but like you know, in hindsight, we're like, oh, did
any of this evening?

Speaker 1 (01:06:01):
That's so no. No, like you're saying, in times of crisis,
I suppose you'd stay behind or go, and I suppose
you just think, well, I'll just stay in the place
that I know in love and as you know, hope
for the best because I don't know what's going to happen. Yeah,
did it cross your mind thinking well, what would I
actually do in the place where I live to try
and protect us? Did it cross your mind? It did mine.

(01:06:23):
I reached the conclusion that there was nothing pretty much.

Speaker 2 (01:06:25):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:06:28):
I think if you don't have a basement, then that's it.
There's no point thinking about it if you've got a basement. Possibly,
but then you emerge into a world that's unlivable in yeah. Yeah, yeah,
And I think it's true to say that the government
was not I was not honest with people. Were no
way back there was I'm just going to say there
was a committee call distract committee in the mid nineteen fifties,

(01:06:51):
and they came up with the report in nineteen fifty five,
and they considered a scenario of what they called limited
strikes of ten hydrogen bombs on you case, cities, and
that they concluded, and this is you know, this is
all in secret at that time. They concluded utter devastation,
twelve million deaths, four million further casualties, overwhelming medical services,

(01:07:12):
half of industry gone, supply chains, broken food and water contaminated.
The forty million remaining people would be living in siege
conditions thereafter. But you know, they produced all these sort
of civil defense books and things giving people hope. And
I can understand why and why they didn't want people
to know about the reality of it. But then again,

(01:07:34):
if you don't tell people the reality of it, then
there's not going to be the kind of opposition we
need to the very policy of having these nuclear weapons
in the first place, you know, and certainly stockpiling them,
massing them. I think honesty is the best policy.

Speaker 3 (01:07:48):
Really, were the officials in the bunker was that supposed
to be the local council?

Speaker 1 (01:07:54):
I think so I got the impression they were underneath
the eggbox.

Speaker 4 (01:07:57):
I think they worry because there had been some announcement
earlier in the movie that your local county or city
governments would have instructions on what to do in the
event of any emergency. And then they I took it
as them sort of like being the local officials.

Speaker 1 (01:08:12):
He was some kind of counselor wasn't he. He became the Controller,
which apparently is the official title of such a person
who then becomes in charge of an area South Yorkshire
I suppose in that case, and it was it they
who received the telephone call that said attack warning red.
It was yeah, he was actually I think it was

(01:08:34):
a good act. He was really good played it just right,
very believable.

Speaker 2 (01:08:39):
Was there much mentioned to the national authorities?

Speaker 3 (01:08:42):
Not really feel I suppose they could have had an
actor playing the Prime Minister and then.

Speaker 1 (01:08:52):
Denzil Washington.

Speaker 4 (01:08:58):
Only on Netflix.

Speaker 1 (01:09:01):
Well, I think the normal government becomes irrelevant because there
was this thing called Python was a code name for
a continuity of government plan following this Strats report, and
they had an underground facility in Wiltshire which would be
effectively the government in that situation. And then when there
were lots of intercontinental ballistic missiles and the Cuban missile

(01:09:23):
crisis that they realized they couldn't just have one central
government headquarters. They'd have to disperse these, so they dispersed
them around the country to Cornwall, Dorset, Scotland, Wales, so
it was a sort of distributed underground government, a continuity
of government. And they would then have kicked the UK
Supply Agency into action for food supply and that sort

(01:09:45):
of thing. It's really interesting that this attack Warning red
because it sounds so you know, you'd lift up the
phone and somebody would actually say attack Warning red. It
sounds like, you know, comes out of thunderbirds or something.
That's right. Apparently that's exactly what they would have said,
and it was the UK Warning Monitoring Organization which had
all these monitoring posts around the country. Yeah, they'd have

(01:10:06):
they'd have picked up on what was happening, and they'd
have given the attack Warning red and the four minute
warning them would have been given to everybody off the
sirens would go. BBC would make their announcements thousands of
warning posts across the country, village, pubs, churches, that all
these sirens will go off and people would have four
minutes to say, oh what what, what do I have
to do with this, protect and survive. I have to
build what basically, because you're not going to prepare for

(01:10:29):
it before are you could take your doors off, big
trenches and all the rest of it.

Speaker 4 (01:10:33):
So duck and cover.

Speaker 1 (01:10:35):
Yeah that's right, dear. Well we've just got a few
minutes left, chaps. So is there any lessons you you
take away from this reflections upon the whole thing?

Speaker 3 (01:10:46):
I just think people need to watch it. I will
highly recommend it, to be honest.

Speaker 1 (01:10:51):
Yeah, I just looked on a map. I live twelve
miles away from Saint Paul's Cathedral. If they're going to
drop bombs in London, they're going to be dropping them
around there, aren't they. So that's probably I've been about
two seconds of night to do anything. I did look up.
I did look up the statistics for you, Mark, Oh,
thank you very much. It's very kind. How long I chose? Well,
I chose a point eight megaton Russian bomb. The top

(01:11:13):
of it a S S twenty five. Apparently it's currently
in their arsenal and it hits Westminster. Okay, London? Yeah,
and you are your Crayford, aren't you?

Speaker 2 (01:11:26):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:11:26):
Well you should be all right then, you reckon. You
probably have lots of broken windows and things, but you're
saying you're right. Okay, Oh okay, that's good. Light blast damage,
windows break everywhere. That's eighteen point five kilometers radius, so
as far as Sidcup, Bexley Heath and fields in the north.

Speaker 4 (01:11:43):
Okay, thanks, Just dig a trench.

Speaker 1 (01:11:46):
Yeah, we've got a concrete garden. There's no earth, so
I might know what yeah, oh dear No. On a
serious note, take away from it on first viewing, the
hopelessness of anything, the helplessness, if you like. But like
you're saying, although we're not decision makers ourselves, I suppose
we are in a sense of voting and it would

(01:12:06):
be a good idea to look at the track record
of people you're voting for and willingness to avert or
start wars. I suppose, yes, I think so. Yeah. But
do you think this is because I just think it
won't ever happen. It just won't happen. I mean, do
you guys think this might happen? It just seems crazy,
the whole idea. Well, I think it might happen. I

(01:12:28):
think that's why I feel like this is made. I
sincerely hope it doesn't happen. I mean I think it might.

Speaker 4 (01:12:34):
Well, it might.

Speaker 1 (01:12:34):
Anything might happen. I mean how likely. Well, according to
the doomsday clock ninety seconds to midnight or whatever it is.
I don't know how to trust that, but.

Speaker 4 (01:12:45):
I just feel that's kind of an arbitrary measurement.

Speaker 1 (01:12:47):
But yeah, true it is. As a kid, I used
to think that was a real thing, and then until
the crowd about the wedding bite. No, it's just people
experts in their field. But it's just people looking at
the general consensus and making a decision. It doesn't actually
mean anything. Well, it means something. It means that concerned

(01:13:08):
enough to push it a little closer. Yeah, you'd be
okay because you're out in the wilds of Lancashire. Yeah
quite Yeah, that's right until the food runs out and yeah,
the radiation poisoning kicks in. Sure. Yeah. I mean what
I took from it, I mean, initially I had the
same kind of reaction. This is just absolutely appalling, But

(01:13:30):
after a while my thinking changed on it, and I
think I mentioned this to Anthony in text messaging. It
was what came over with me was the sense of
just how incredible everything is. Now you know, a sense
of appreciation for what we've got. And I don't mean
that in a sort of crass, you know, count your
blessing sort of trite way, you know. I mean, you know,
in the film, pretty much everything is taken away. It's okay,

(01:13:52):
you've got the effects of the blasts and the radiation,
and you've got a lots of modern technology takes humanity
back to pre industrial time. So that's all bad enough.
But then even beyond that, you've got the loss of
social structureds, family, friends, communities, and then the loss of
psychological health. Even the ability to use language is lost
in children, and learning is lost. You know, pretty much

(01:14:12):
everything is lost. And the fertility in the natural world,
I mean, the sun is blocked out, crops don't grow.
Ecological disruption. You can't leave anything worse. But is the
extent of that loss that made me realize how incredible
everything is that we actually have now, you know, even
the most mundane thing is a massive gift. We have
clean water, clean air, things grow, you've got warmth and sunshine,

(01:14:32):
and a piece of bread is incredibly difficult to make
from scratch, but we've got it, you know, And that
reciprocity between people, goodwill, law, order, clothing, My plate isn't broken,
I can write with a pen, I've got paper, and
all these things we totally take for granted the richness
and complexity we actually have, even the poorest. I mean,
the one thing I thought is what about somebody who's homeless. Well, actually, no,

(01:14:53):
they have a richness as well, because somebody might buy
them a cup of coffee, they might give them a sandwich,
they might give them shelter, all of that. You don't
have any of that had that? Wow, even the most
the tiniest thing is an amazing gift that we've got,
and we have to somehow we have to protect that.
You know, we have these threads, threads of our own
lives and the threads of nature in which we're nestled.

(01:15:15):
Are you saying, are you saying carpe DM seize the day?
Is that what you're sort of saying, seize every live
in the present, living.

Speaker 2 (01:15:24):
Also detached from things that aren't important.

Speaker 3 (01:15:28):
Family, health, friends all important, but nothing else, in my opinion,
is very important at all. I mean, I've been on
a kind of mission of almost like decluttering.

Speaker 2 (01:15:39):
I was like mental.

Speaker 3 (01:15:40):
Decluttering and actual decluttering and simplifying things down, and I
just think it's the best way to live. It's got
a few important things and then just detach from everything else.

Speaker 1 (01:15:50):
Holding things lightly. I did a sermon that you did
way back, and yeah, that's right, and that sense of
caring for everything and caring for people and loving people
intensely and all that sort of thing, but holding everything
likely nevertheless and holding early on to God and ultimately
what we have. Yeah, so it fits very much with

(01:16:11):
that message. So I actually came out of this. In fact,
I was worrying about some things, and it made me think, Oh,
while we're worrying about you know, I've got so much
you know. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:16:20):
I think that's why.

Speaker 3 (01:16:21):
Even if you don't directly experience things, because I like
history and things like that, you read about all these
dark things that happen, and there is something good about
reading about it because it just gives you a different perspective.
You know, if you're completely sheltered, those are the people
that wouldn't be as good in this situation. You need
to know about the dark realities of life. Yes, that's true,

(01:16:43):
and I think just knowing about them is beneficial because
you appreciate what you've got it. She said, yeah, absolutely,
and it is completely miraculous really how society keeps go amazing.

Speaker 2 (01:16:54):
We just got everything on tap pretty much.

Speaker 1 (01:16:58):
The milk gets delivered on the doorst the milk bottles
don't melt. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:17:03):
I had a similar feeling with that movie The Road.
There's one scene where he's walking with his boy through
a city and they find an old coke machine and
there's one can of coke in there, And like, that
movie and that scene in particular made me feel what
you're describing here, Julian, like just so much of these
modern conveniences and luxuries we have are just so fragile,
you know, absolutely, like a thread.

Speaker 1 (01:17:26):
Vast complexity of society has gone into the creation of
these things we totally take for granted as just being there.
And absolutely James Corban did something recently called is it
ice Sandwich or something? It was it was it was reporting.
I think it was reporting on somebody who had gone
back to basics and tried to make a sandwich from
scratch and it took them six months. You get all

(01:17:50):
the ingredients and the process is necessary just to make
a sandwich. I think that's so there you go and
we just go, I'll have a sandwich please. You know,
it's just like all of life is just there. Yeah,
we must preserve it. Yeah, appropriate decisions as we can,
you know, offinitude to make whatever influences we can in
this world. Anyway, thank you ever so much. Chats for

(01:18:10):
discussing this. I know we've got to close sharply now.
Very disturbing film has been picked up. I'm sure why
everybody listening to this very well made, very necessary to
watch film if you can, be warned, of course, but
be encouraged and do encourage others as well to watch
it if you can stomach it, and I do hope
you can, and hopefully does remind us all of the
wonderful world in which we live and the fact that

(01:18:32):
we do have influenced to some extent and hopefully we
can make some kind of difference. So thank you very much.
Threads is I believe still available for several months via
BBC iPlayer here in the UK. Now outside of the UK,
I don't know what you would do. Presumably get a
DVD or something, but no, Frank, you said it was
on a streaming service.

Speaker 4 (01:18:52):
Somewhere on it's on the streaming service to be t
Ubi either. It's free with adverts, but I was able
to watch it it. I highly recommend any listeners in
the US hop on to b and watch it. It
was a very good Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:19:07):
Okay, you could always watch the war Game as well,
couldn't you? First almost and maybe both of them is
a bit too much on the same day. But yeah,
I would say perhaps don't watch it in a in
a vulnerable state, you know, because it is pretty disturbing.

Speaker 1 (01:19:21):
Yeah, don't watch it on a first date for somebody.

Speaker 2 (01:19:26):
Yeah, I've got a lovely double bill darling.

Speaker 4 (01:19:28):
Yeah, that's at least third date material.

Speaker 1 (01:19:32):
Yeah, cubs. Okay, thanks ver so much, Thank you very much,
great speaking, long break, Yeah see you. Show notes for
this program can be found at the mind renewde theMIND
renude dot com podcast. Music by the brilliant Anthony Rajakoff
attribution non commercial shower like four point zero International. You

(01:19:55):
have been listening to me, Julian Charles and my guests
Anthony Ratuno, Frank Johnson and Ark Campbell, and I very
much look forward to speaking to you again in the
near future.

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