May 15, 2024 • 40 mins
This week, the gang looks at Michael Cohen's testimony in the Trump Trial and how Nikki Haley is till trolling Trump in the primaries. We also discuss a future episode that simulates the Trump jury deliberations and invite listeners to play on-air jurors. Write us at mpupodcast@gmail.com to volunteer and join us on air!
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Episode Transcript
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(00:16):
Welcome to the More Perfect Union,the podcast that offers real debate without the
hate. I'm Kevin Calton and I'mpleased to share the mic with my friends.
DJ maguire. That's right, someonethe Times, The Times in Sienna
University does not call because ansists threerural voters are more important than I am.
(00:37):
Rebecca Cushmeider. I am sitting hereon tanderhooks watching a school board primary
result come in. So if Iseem distracted, it is because I actually
am in Kensington, Maryland, whereit's primary night. And Greg me Tusak,
your common sense liberal from Cincinnati,Ohio. I have attended two senior
(01:02):
banquets for my oldest child who's graduatingand has been accepted to a college.
I will be sending out my GoFundMepage to pay for her college to all
the listeners and to everyone on thispodcast. So thank you for your support
on that. I've been there,I've done it twice, Greg, and
my sympathies go out to you,not the GoFundMe. I was going to
(01:23):
say, I will put you downon the GoFundMe. That's a commitment.
Everyone's hut down for five bucks.Well, it's a start before we get
into the news this week, wewanted to throw something open to our listeners.
A lot of you have been withus for a while and maybe you
have always dreamed of being on theMore Perfect Union podcast. Well, your
(01:45):
opportunity may be here. We wouldlike to do an episode where we have
a mock jury deliberation of the Trumptrial. This would happen very close to
the end of final summations or afterfinal summation, but before the actual jury
reaches a verdict. We would liketo see how regular people would deliberate the
(02:07):
facts of this case based on whatthey've learned from television and from reading news
accounts about it. And so ifyou are interested in that, write to
us at mpupodcast at gmail dot com. Tell us in a few sentences about
yourself and if we think we canpull this thing together. We've never done
anything like this before. We willhave several, maybe twelve, maybe more,
(02:30):
maybe less of our listeners actually participatein a recording session and see where
it lands us in terms of ajury verdict. I was just about to
say, I don't think anyone's evertried this before, and this could be
the basis for a new judicial systemfor the country podcasting justice. Oh,
(02:51):
I was going to say, amore perfect judicial system. Oh, okay,
I like yours better, but Ilove it. I think it's much
more fair than what's going on inthe Supreme Court right now. I could
see. I could see people like, oh, this is this is true
justice. This is like, thisis like street justice. And if we
do this, I want to beDonald Trump. So you want to sleep
(03:14):
through it. I want to sleepthrough it and make like gross noises sort
of like what I do right nowon the podcast. So cool. So
we have that coming, uh,Like I said, the email address is
MPU podcast at gmail dot com.And by the way, if you just
want to send us a note sayingthat you listen and tell us what you
like or maybe what you'd like moreof or will like less of in the
(03:34):
podcast, please feel free to reachout to us. We would love to
hear from you. MPU podcast atgmail dot com. And with that said,
yes, there is a trial goingon in New York. Someone named
Donald J. Trump is at thedefense table. Jurors have been hearing from
Michael Cohen. He's still on thestand as we record this, and I'm
going to throw it to DJ first, what are your takeaways from what you've
(03:58):
learned about the case so far thisweek and where you think it's going and
how it might impact the election.I think Michael Cohen acquitted himself pretty well.
It does not appear to use thatword to quit. It makes me
nervous him. Well, yeah,I don't think the defense has really helped
(04:21):
itself much. I'm not really surewhat case the defense is going to present
because I'm not really sure what theirargument is. It's something between it didn't
happen, he was being shaken down, Michael Cohen did it on his own
volition, or it's scattershot. SoI am actually thinking there will be a
(04:47):
conviction out of this one from yourlips, from your lips to the jury's
ears. Now, that would bejury tampering, and that's a felony.
We're not allowed to do it.You're not allowed to kiss the ears of
Jewish. Yeah, well, Imean I think I don't know. They're
not supposed to listen to podcasts rightnow. Yeah. I tend to agree
(05:09):
with DJ that it seems like thedefense is trying to say that Michael Cohen
did this on his own, thathe was some kind of rogua agent within
the Trump organization. And what Ifound really amazing today was the lawyers,
you know, trying to make itall out as if Michael Cohen is doing
everything he's doing right now for money, like, oh, you have a
(05:30):
podcast and you make money of that, you sell merch and you make money
off that. The man they aredefending wrote a book called How to Get
Rich. For them to criticize anyonefor wanting to make money strikes me as
patently unfair. All right, I'mgoing to disagree with you all, and
I know, I know, I'mjust feeling really really froggy today, So
(05:53):
I'm going to jump and I wantto say I'm going to say that I
honestly think that right now, weall like, oh, yeah, this
this this case is in the bagbecause only the prosecution has really shown their
side. But when it comes tothe defense, what they're going to do,
and this is my belief, isthey're going to say Donald J.
(06:14):
Trump listened to his lawyer and hislawyer, and like we all would,
your lawyer comes and says, hey, we can make this problem go away.
We've got this. You pay meto do this. This is what
I would do. Sign this paperhere, take care of it. We're
done. I'm a lawyer. Iknow what I'm doing. And that's how
they're going to walk away with this. And they're only going to need one
(06:34):
person because their end of the speechis going to say, if you were
in trouble, wouldn't you trust yourlawyer to give you good advice? And
that's how it's going to be pinnedon Cohen. And even though he's a
bad lawyer, they're going to say, that's enough doubt that maybe maybe Donald
Trump isn't the smartest person in theroom. And the sleeping and the falling
(06:58):
asleep, and the and the wrappinghis pants, that's all helping him.
Hold up, hold up, holdup, hold up, hold up.
You go to your lawyer when youthink you're going to be arrested or when
you think you're going to be sued. You do not go to your lawyer
when you think you're going to beembarrassed or you're going to lose votes in
(07:19):
an election. No you do,Actually, no you don't. I have
been a candidate, I've seen gamingaids. You don't go to a lawyer.
You go to a campaign manager.The other thing I think we can
point to that is not in DonaldTrump's favor, is that this is a
pattern of behavior and that prior instancesof catch and kill operations, David Pucker
(07:45):
footed the bill and this was achange in pattern, and so they had
to come up with this whole financialscheme. And you know, he's the
meetings, the notes on invoices makeit very clear that Trump was aware that
(08:05):
they were trying to hide stories forthe sake of his election, and that
they were doing it using fraudulent businessrecords, like Michael Cohen told him he
was going to start a shell company. Like, you don't start a shell
company when you're on the upcome,at least, I don't. Maybe y'all
(08:26):
do my takeaway of the week.You know, obviously we all we can
hope for a conviction, or wemay think that unlikely. Obviously none of
us knows. But my takeaway inwatching the coverage is a couple of things.
First of all, I'm glad DJthat you use the word attorney.
I am so sick of hearing himcalled a fixer. There's no such thing
(08:48):
as a fixer, and network newsanchors should know better than to use terminology
like that. It's prejudicial, notthat they're in a courtroom, but it
just smacks of like buying into theTrump line. The fixer, the fixer,
what does that even mean. He'san attorney. He was Trump's attorney.
(09:09):
Another thing that I found interesting thisweek is everybody is talking about this
rule of case law, this ruleof criminal law, and I'm not going
to try to pronounce the Latin,but it means essentially lie about one thing.
You can assume they have lied abouteverything. And what the network people
keep hammering that to suggest that thejury doesn't have to believe Michael Cohen because
(09:37):
he lied a lot in the past, or because he was convicted of perjury.
That's not what that legal tenant means. What it means is if in
the case you're hearing, you believethe witness lied to you once, then
you can disregard everything that they've said. You know, everybody in the world
(09:58):
has lied in the past. MichaelCohen maybe has lied a little bit more
publicly, but every witness that getson the stand has some history of telling
a fib So the idea that MichaelCohen is immediately disqualified, and this is
what Fox News would have you believe, is immediately disqualified because of his past
(10:18):
missteps, whether they were legal,whether they were public relations, whether he
lied to Congress. If he acceptsthat, acknowledges that, and takes ownership
of that on the witness stand,and then the jury believes that other than
that he testified truthfully, they donot have to disregard his testimony. So
(10:39):
that's another place where I think thecable networks have done a great disservice to
this case and to the viewers whowant to understand our legal system. There
was one thing that struck me todayin Michael Cohen's testimony. He testified that
he did not invoice for actual legalservices he had committed for what's the word
(11:03):
contractive for with Donald Trump, likehe he had given legal advice or done
something legal for the Trump organization,but didn't get paid for it. He
did that out of the goodness ofhis heart. The only time he was
getting paid for stuff is apparently whenhe was doing these more fixer like job.
No offense Kevin for using that firm. I'm offended. I'm offended.
(11:26):
Well, you should call Kevin,you should call for a mistrial, a
miss podcast, this podcast, amiscast. Did they ever establish how much
how Michael Cohen got paid. Wasit like per like felonious or per like
evil deed or was it like likeseriously, was he on the payroll?
(11:46):
Did he get a you know,first, he was on the payroll of
Trump organization. Okay, And forthis particular payout, they took the amount
of money that he paid to StormyDaniels, right, they doubled it for
tax reasons. They added on someother moneies that he had laid out in
Trump's behalf in the past, andthey broke it up into some number of
(12:09):
equal payments of thirty five thousand dollars. Trump wrote a check for each one
of those payments, and it cameout of either the Trump organization. But
yes, he came out of theTrump organization. That's how we got paid.
No, he was. He waspaying out of the Trump Foundation and
then out of his own personal accounts, and he was making monthly installment payments
of thirty five thousand dollars for thecourse of e level. Okay. Well,
(12:33):
Alan Weisseelberg was somehow involved in it. So I thought it was the
Trump organization, but I could bewrong on that. Yeah, No,
I mean it was yeah, itwas it was going through the Trump organization,
but it was because the payments werehappening after the election. I don't
think Donald Trump could write checks fromthe Trump Organization because he had handed over
control of that, so it wascoming out of Trump Family Foundation or something
like that in his personal account.Okay, there were some political celebrities in
(12:58):
the courtroom this week's crazy with thatword celebrity. Let's slept family has has
avoided it, other than Eric Trump, by the way. I think we
will see Milania in courtroom before theend of the case. But that's just
a Oh. I'll put money downthat we won't. Okay, I'll bet
you like a hot fudge Sunday orwell, I'll tell you what. If
you're right, I will double myGoFundMe so excellent. Yeah, but I'm
(13:26):
gonna hold it that hot fudge Sunday. If I'm right, There's there's no
way she if she comes in,it will literally she'll wear a jacket that
says like I don't care, Iknow he's guilty, or I mean it
will say something horrendous. She willwear some fashion statement that will be literally
like it will be like a pictureof Stormy Daniels and a candle. I
(13:48):
mean, there is no way nowit'll be it'll be something like you know,
it said this would be versace ifhe hadn't spent all that money on
Michael Cohen. Well, the peoplethat were there were J. D.
Vance, Mike Johnson, Tommy Tubbervillewho was there earlier in the week,
Rich Scott, and I'm thinking I'mforgetting one or two ram Vivik Ramaswami.
(14:13):
That's the one I was I wassearching for in my mind. So all
of these surrogates were there because theycan say the stuff that the gag order
prevents Trump from saying. Do youthink that they actually help move any voters?
Or were they just such a farsecond to Donald Trump that they're really
just there for their own aggrandizement nothingelse. This is the vice presidential edition,
(14:37):
that's what this is. Yeah.Yeah, well it wasn't for Mike
Johnson. I don't think, ohyes, it was. Oh okay,
really well, he's not going tobe speaker again. But couldn't he go
to Divinity School or something just leaveus all out of his necks? No,
I mean, it's it's it's sadhow apparent these people are JD.
(15:00):
Vance left Ohio, my home state, and flew there, probably on money
that I paid somehow to back him. Just at a pathetic it's so thirsty.
It's so thirsty that he wants tobe vice president that bad that he's
willing to stand in a terrible,dingy courtroom all day and with these other
people who just want to be vicepresident that badly. They want their name
(15:26):
on that news so much. Yeah. Well, I mean, like if
you are a non mag of voterand you know you're seeing Mike Johnson,
the Speaker of the House, youknow, standing outside this courtroom calling this
whole trial a travesty. If Trumpgets convicted, like, is that going
(15:46):
to sour you to the whole party? I think it might. Like if
you're you know, seeing the leadershipof one of the two major parties all
you know, bowing and scraping overthis guy who's just like making shady finance
dealings, it's just gross. It'sso remember that scene in Donnie Brasco where
there's like a bunch of mobsters sittingaround a wood paneled room and one of
(16:08):
them is literally taking a hammer toa parking meter. And that's the level
of crime they're committing, like tryingto break up in a parking met This
was That's what this is starting tofeel like. It's not sexy, cool
godfather mob stuff. It is DonnieBrasco hammer to a parking meter mobs.
Yep. So we recently discussed someof the security concerns and the physical security
(16:33):
of election workers and election sites.The Justice Department announced it's finally taking those
threats seriously. Do you think aconviction in the Trump trial will increase the
danger at the polls in November ormight actually create violence before then? Or
again, do they live in separate, parallel universes. It all kind of
(16:55):
depends. Even if there's a conviction, assuming that he'd be like in some
sort of of a feel process,his name will still be on a ballot,
and I don't know that that wouldcause potential violence at the bulls.
If somehow he is not like ifhe isn't able to go to conventions,
if it seems like he is beingforced out of this election, I think
(17:18):
that causes more of a problem thanjust a straight up conviction. And speaking
of violence, wal campus protests spillover to problems on election day. I
would actually be surprised. Yeah,I mean we've seen the we've seen the
ranking of where actual students' concerns,and we've actually looked at the numbers,
(17:40):
and yes, there are of whatcollege students are concerned about, and and
these protests are relatively small, andwe don't know where we're going to be
in six months. And I knowwe've talked about it. I know I'm
the minority. You guys still thinkthey're going to be college protests in four
or five months. I just don'tsee it, or maybe I'm wrong,
(18:03):
but you know, I think I'mmore concerned about, you know, people
with AK forty seven's or ak ARfifteen excuse me, who are patrolling to
make sure you know, That's whereI'm more concerned about. I'm concerned about
both. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah. I don't think the trial itself for
the conviction will make an impact oneway or the other on election day security.
(18:29):
Yes, I'm using the inverted commaswhen I say that, because you
know, the wackos are going towacko and they're going to be dangerous,
and the fact that the Department ofJustice is looking at it is a good
thing and that they're taking it Seriously, I don't think the protests are going
to have much of an impact because, and I'm going to take this sort
of a from a different angle here, I think the Israeli operation in Gaza
(18:55):
is looking more and more ineffective.Hamas is creeping in its way back into
the north of Gaza, which wassupposedly cleared of all Hamas people. And
as more of this goes on,and this becomes essentially two thousand bomb whackable
instead of an actual attempt to eliminateHamas from Gaza in a systematic manner,
(19:17):
Biden is going to have a lotmore leeway to say Israel self sabotaging and
I cannot sit here and help Israelself sabotage. He will be in a
he will be in have more roomto criticize Israel, the Israeli government's actions,
because there are already people inside Israelwho are criticized to these reel government
actions, including in the IDF.So the protesters, they're going to have
(19:42):
their hardcore of Biden haters. Thoseare always going to be there. But
the the political power that they hadin terms of angry democrats really upset over
Gaza not voting for Joe Biden.I don't think that's going to be happening
in the fall, because of theBiden is going to have to be far
more critical of Israel in September inOctober than he is now, because by
(20:07):
then will become more and more obviousthat what Israel is doing is not working.
And while that will be bad forIsrael, let alone Gaza, it
will be good for Biden because itmeans that those anti war Democrats for lack
of a better term, will feelmore comfortable voting for him because he will
feel more comfortable criticizing Israel. Okay, And speaking of protests, how about
(20:30):
protests votes? Nicki Haley is runningas we speak in the Maryland primary against
one Donald J. Trump, AndI'm going to throw to Rebecca Kushmeider,
who is our reporter on the field, reporter on the field, on the
ground, on the iPad. AsI am looking at results, we have
four hundred and seventy nine precincts reportingof nineteen hundred and fifty Yeah, nineteen
(20:51):
hundred and fifty seven, And atthe moment, Nicki Haley has twenty one
point forty eight percent of the primaryvote against Donald J. Trump. Now
At the moment, Biden only haseighty eight percent of the Democratic vote.
We've got an eight point two ninepercent going to uncommitted. But that feels
(21:12):
performative. It doesn't feel like peoplewho and I have nothing to base this
on, but it doesn't feel likethese are people who are going to peel
off from Biden in the general.They're just trying to make a point right
now. And I think, asDJ said, the situation is in so
much flux that we can't really predicthow people are going to feel about it
(21:33):
six months down the road. Italso says something in a Democrat This is
obviously Maryland is a very democratic state, but we're looking at a primary where
there are twice as many Democrats votingas there are are Republicans, and Nicki
Haley still has exactly actually that's somegood mouth in their deete, thank you,
(21:55):
And Nicki Haley still has more votesthan uncommitted Democrats. Now that's the
case in a state like Maryland,which is fallover democratic, then in some
of the swing states, that meansthe un That means in some of these
swing states, Donald Trump will bebleeding far many more Republicans than Joe Biden
(22:15):
is bleeding Democrats, even if Iam wrong about what I said ten minutes
ago, and I'm not wrong,So you know, even at its worst,
this is looking very good. Thisthis is a very good sign for
Biden in November. Much better signedthan that horrible New York Times sienapol that
(22:36):
said that the rural vote would betwice what it actually is on election day.
I'm still mad about that. It'salso worth noting that the uncommitted vote
is purposeful. It is it's amessage being sent using a very specific tool
with which to send it. Thepeople voting for Nicki Haley are just voting
for a candidate who's not in therace, like uncommitted is. Basically it's
(22:57):
a vote for the people of Gazaand a plea for mercy on the people
of Gaza, whereas voted for NickyHaley is just a big middle finger to
Donald J. Trump. I'd liketo think, and I've spoken to some
people who have voted for Nicki Haleyeven past and they've all said they actually
(23:18):
believe that this will send a messagethat they hope that one Donald Trump won't
be which is ridiculous. The actualcandidate for the GOP, which that's not
going to happen at this point.And two they still hope that this will
send a message that maybe he willbe a more middle of the road representative
(23:41):
a candidate and he will temper someof this, and this will send a
message which also will not happen wellin policy wise. Nicki Haley is no
more moderate than Donald Trump is.She's just as conservative as the most conservative.
She's not like a middle of theroad normal person. Hold it,
hold it, hold it, holdit. Nicky Haley is a hard right
(24:03):
conservative from twenty fourteen. That's notconsidered hard right conservative anymore. If you
support NATO, if you support ifyou're not an isolationist, and if you're
not a protectionist, apparently you're nota conservative in twenty twenty four So Nicki
Haley and Donald Trump do have somevery serious policy disagreements. Okay, neither
(24:25):
of them would be comfortable in theDemocratic Party obviously, But people who are
voting for Nicky Haley have their reasons, and yes, some of them are
policy reasons. Some of them isa friend of mine who just wanted a
chance to vote against Donald Trump.He's going to do it again November,
but he wanted to do it.He wanted to do it in March,
just to feel good about it,just to see Donald Trump at the ballot
and to pick somebody else. Iget that. I'm cool with that.
(24:48):
There's no guarantee that these voters aregoing to come back to Donald Trump anymore
than there's no guarantee that they're allgoing to go to Joe Biden. In
fact, I'm pretty sure that neitherof those are going to happen. But
they are in play. They arevotes that Biden can get, their votes
that the Democrats can get if theyput up the right candidates and if they
put up the right issues. Andmaybe we'll talk about that later. So
(25:18):
we've been talking about percentages as theypertain to primaries, but there's also polling
data. I'll tell you one thingabout getting to the ultimately to the November
election and beyond it, win forJoe Biden or win for Donald Trump.
What will be wonderful is that nothaving to think in terms of percentages every
(25:38):
time something's on the news. Butwe do still have to think about percentages
in terms of polling. DJ thishas been a craw in your claw.
I don't know what that means thishas been bothering you for weeks and months
now, the way polling institutions arestill polling the American electorate. So I'm
(26:00):
going to throw to you and justgive you a chance to vent one more
time. Okay, So, yes, the New York Times c Ina poll
has long been a stick in mycraw. I believe that's the actual phrase.
It probably is, and it madeup for craw. I don't believe.
I have no idea what a crawis. Acras is something a bird
(26:22):
uses to help digest food. Really, yeah, right, if I'm correct.
But in February when they put outthe pole that said Trump is up
five points nationally, and everyone weren'tran around the chickens with their head with
their heads on fire, chickens withtheir heads cut off. See, I
get my met works, I getmy metaphors confused too. I took a
(26:45):
look at the sampling data. Youcould have a chicken with its head on
fire? Is possible? Yes?Indeed, I looked at this, at
the sample data, and I foundthat they were showing the rural vote to
be thirty five percent of their pollingsample in twenty twenty, the national rural
vote was seventeen percent. In twentytwenty two, which was a slightly better
(27:07):
year for Republicans, it was nineteenpercent. So when this pole came out
saying Donald Trump leads in five outof six swing states, I said,
Okay, let's take a look attheir samples, and when you know it,
each and every single state has ahigher rural sample than you saw in
the twenty twenty two exit poll.Had they used the twenty twenty two exit
(27:32):
poll waiting for the types of neighborhoods, Joe Biden would have been ahead by
six points in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin,and Michigan. He'd be only down four
in Arizona. He'd be only downfive in Georgia. So I'm not saying
that's how we should actually look atthe race with my weird analogous math.
No, no, no. Mypoint is this poll sucks, and this
(27:52):
pole sucks bigger and worse than otherpolls that have sucked, not only because
it got this so bad wrong,but because it's the New York Times and
everybody pays attention to it. Soeveryone is going to react on bad data
because the New York Times can't figureout how to keep the farmers and the
(28:12):
hay seed folks out of their polling. I have two quick points. First,
as I heard a pulling analysis,I think it was after twenty twenty,
and it was talking about the ideaof modeling where polling is no longer
about trying to create an accurate snapshotin time, but about trying to beat
(28:34):
the odds of being wrong. Andyou know, it's become about there it
is more likely that so and sowill win than so and so will win,
but it's not impossible for so andso to win, so that the
pollsters are never wrong. And Ithink that's part of Nate Silver's form of
modeling, where you know, he'snot trying to eliminate possibilities, he's just
(28:59):
trying to quantify. And the otherthing to remember is that whatever polling we're
looking at is far less precise andfar less accurate than whatever internal pulling the
campaigns have. And you know,I remember a quote after twenty sixteen where
somebody commented that Hillary's internal polling hadbeen showing for numbers in free fall,
(29:22):
and they said nobody was less surprisedthan Hillary Clinton lost than Hillary Clinton.
So Donald Trump is not. AndJoe Biden are not making their decisions based
on the New York Times Siena poll. That's just us running around Blake chickens
with our factors cut off or whatevermetaphor Greg was butchering earlier. And you
know, we can, we canstand around and be angry about it.
(29:47):
But the campaigns are seeing a different, possibly more real reality and making their
decisions off that. Let's move onto foreign affairs, which we haven't really
touched on a whole lot in thelast several Ukraine, the war continues,
there have been some developments there fightingto protect Kharkiv. Did I pronounce that
(30:07):
correctly? You did? And obviouslyIsrael seems to have enough troops perched on
Rafa that they could go in andbegin their offensive there if they so choose
to. With that in mind,DJ, you are our resident foreign affairs
expert, why can't the Democrats justcall their opponents an American for not supporting
(30:33):
Ukraine and parading the Moscow line?Right? This is actually the question that
I threw out because while I dothis out because I know far less about
how democratic campaigns operate than the threeof you, Because I'm far less,
I'm far less experienced with the DemocraticParty than all of you are. If
I were a Republican still and thiswas a this and the Republicans were trying
(30:59):
to get funding for you Craine andthe Democrats were trying to stop it and
parroting Moscow's lines, I know exactlywhat the Republican Party would do. They
would say those people are un American. You cannot be a patriot and vote
for them. At the same timeyou have to do you are either one
or the other. You know,the little bumper stickers. There are Americans
in their Liberals back from the nineteeneighties and nineties, they would be all
(31:22):
over the place, okay, Andin fact they're still doing that kind of
thing over there, even as theyare parroting a foreign tyrants line. I'm
just wondering what is it about theDemocratic Party and the Democratic Party coalition that
they can't find. If not thePresident himself, then at least some senators
some congressmen stand up and say theRepublican Party is no longer acceptable in American
(31:47):
society. You can no longer bea patriot and vote Republican. That should
be part of the campaign. Itwould be part of the campaign if I
were running it, it's not partof the campaign. And as you are
all much more experienced with the DemocraticParty than I am, I would like
to hear from you on why thatisn't happening. Because Democrats are very accepting
(32:07):
on the macro, but very punitiveon the micro. So if somebody is
parroting Russian talking points, we will, you know, we'll give them a
lot of leeway to do that becausewe believe in freedom of beach and freedom
of expression. If they actually were, you know, found to be a
Russian spy, we would most certainlysend them to jail. Whereas Republicans are
(32:29):
the opposite. They're very judgmental onthe macro, but forgiving on the micro.
Like you know, Doutshot, notcommit adultery, God said not to.
But if you're Donald Trump, it'sprobably okay. We can find a
reason to forgive that. So wewill never call anyone not a patriot unless
they have committed some sort of actthat is demonstrably unpatriotic. Okay, Well,
(32:49):
Greg hasn't spoken on this subject yet, but I'm going to disagree with
him. You're saving him so muchtime. All I'm doing is most to
the to the microphone and going andKevin just just helping me out here.
It's just saving me a lot oftime and effort. So I was just
joking, do you have anything tothrow in? Actually, what's really funny
(33:12):
is I was literally just about tosay acceptance. That's what Democrats do.
We accept and as much as theGOP will say like, oh, we
are just you know, Democrats areso judgmental and it's so tough being a
white male in today's society. It'sit's it's that's what's keeping us from doing
that exact same thing, like you'renot part of America? Is that that's
(33:37):
like the liberals big thing is,hey, everybody's part. Everyone's part of
this big crazy experiment here. Well, my observation on this is I actually
think Democrats are doing it. Ijust think that they don't ring bells as
loudly as Republicans do. Every timeI see a congressman or senator address this
(33:57):
issue, they do point out thatit's not American, it's not the policies
of Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush, and certainly not John
Kennedy. Why it's not resonating that'sa different discussion. But I do think
that they're making that case. Itjust hasn't cut. It hasn't broken through,
is what you're saying, Kevin.We need more cow bell on this
(34:19):
issue. We need more cow bell. Cowbell episode title, more cow bell.
And for our last topic, I'mactually gonna throw to you, Rebecca.
You observed something when you were goingthrough Twitter this week that we thought
might make for an interesting topic.Why don't you take this one? Oh?
(34:39):
Yes? Andy Biggs of Arizona tweetedout last night that Americans commit three
felonies a day. He said that, yeah, and it's it's nine to
fifty one. I've committed no feloniestoday. I didn't commit any yesterday.
I'm going to have to commit ninefelonies tomorrow just to catch up. You
know, I'm so far behind forthis week and possibly also my whole life.
(35:01):
And I guess there's an economic principlethat like any you know, businesses
that don't can accidentally commit felonies byfallowing a foul of regulations. It's a
it's a libertarian book saying you knowthat we need to do a regulations because
they're causing felonies. I don't know, but my my question for all of
(35:23):
you is, if you had to, you know, commit a Baker's dozen
felonies this week, how would youreach that quota? Like, how would
you how would you make those kindof numbers? What felonies would you commit?
Greg metus act. You know,I was I saw that on the
rundown and I was thinking, like, so I got it confused. I
(35:43):
felt like sins, like I wouldprobably eat a lot and you know,
that would be my gluttony right there, But that's not really a sin.
There's you know, And as faras felonies, I'm actually the guy who
everyone honks at because I drive thespeed limit. Everyone hates it, and
I don't do it. That's afelony in Texas, let me tell you.
(36:04):
I know. But I don't doit in the left lane. I
do it in the middle lane sopeople can pass me safely, even I'm
very careful about that, and Iuse my turn signal, so it wouldn't
be a driving offense, you know. I I have been accused of like
breaking like the laws of man becauseI like groups like the Beegs, but
(36:25):
gosh, they're really good and Ican defend it to you know, So
I mean I would be really,really hard pressed. I'll have to think
about I'll have to call some ofmy ex girlfriends who have terrible things to
say about me. Ah, Idon't know. Yeah, what about you,
dude, what what felonies would youcommit to get yourself to it three
(36:46):
a day? Well, I'm ina polyamorous marriage, so adultery wherever adultery
is a felony or misdemeanor that practically, by definition is something think that happens.
But is it any in Virginia?Still, it's a misdemeanor in Virginia,
it's a fell o mother states.Well maybe if you do it in
(37:07):
commission of like election interference, right, Okay, But I'm not planning for
doing that. I'm just I'm tryingto help there. There are times where
I have accelerated on an interstate wheremy where my speeding could be in the
reckless category. It's no more thanfive or ten seconds, but that might
(37:29):
be enough. I don't know,I don't I really can't think of anything
else at the moment. What aboutyou, Kevin, would you what would
you do it? Well? Well, I would have to cut down on
my fellow needs to get to threeday. Thank goodness, somebody is overachieving
in this group, you might have, you know, no slacking. Hold
(37:51):
up, he's a resident of Texas. That's illegal in fifteen states. Already.
There you go, There you go. And a couple of things I
want to say on that if.First of all, unfortunately by a conflating
committing felonies and DJ's marriage with theDonald Trump trial, Rebecca, you've put
the image in my head of DJin red satin pjs. Oh, I'm
(38:14):
so sorry. I don't think I'mever gonna get that out of my head.
Yeah, I'm sorry. I shouldn'thave done that. But I've been
thinking about what felonies I would needto commit to get up there, and
I basically I I'm going to haveto go to the zoo and steal all
the penguins and possibly take them acrossstate lines, and if necessary, I
will carry a weapon to the zooso that it's an armed robbery when I'm
(38:36):
stealing the penguins. I don't I'mnot sure what consists of a weapon when
you're in a penguin enclosure, maybelike frozen fish or something. But yeah,
I'm gonna have to start stealing zooanimals. But I don't want scary
zoo animals. I'm going to stickwith like penguins or maybe those little capuchin
monkeys that you could like wear onyour shoulders. Are you serious? Have
you not? Have you not seenthe penguins of Madagascar? Wolski's already got
(39:00):
a plan that you will not survive. Rico is vomiting weapons as we speak.
And why do you think I chosepenguins here? DJ, I'm an
operative, I'm not just a prettyface. Maybe I mean I'm I'm in
league with the penguins. With that, we want to thank everybody for listening.
(39:24):
If you enjoy what we do here, please follow us on Instagram at
MPU fan Club, and don't forgetto share our link on your Facebook timeline
and your Instagram timeline so your friendscan discover us as well. And also,
we have a new substack blog pagecalled MPU Podcast where we occasionally drop
essays. I'm working on a newone for this week. Hopefully I'll get
(39:46):
it out before our next show,and you can see us discuss issues and
sometimes debate with each other in thesubstack between shows and as we head into
our goodbye theme music. We wantto thank Alan Kenny for our theme song,
And I'm going to throw this opento Greg Rebecca DJ. What kind
(40:10):
of nachos will you be eating whenMichael Cohen takes the stand again on cross
examination tomorrow. Probably I was goingto put some sort of oil on them,
because that's what fixers. Ah
Welcome to the More Perfect Union,the podcast that offers real debate without the
hate. I'm Kevin Calton and I'mpleased to share the mic with my friends.
DJ maguire. That's right, someonethe Times, The Times in Sienna
University does not call because ansists threerural voters are more important than I am.
(00:37):
Rebecca Cushmeider. I am sitting hereon tanderhooks watching a school board primary
result come in. So if Iseem distracted, it is because I actually
am in Kensington, Maryland, whereit's primary night. And Greg me Tusak,
your common sense liberal from Cincinnati,Ohio. I have attended two senior
(01:02):
banquets for my oldest child who's graduatingand has been accepted to a college.
I will be sending out my GoFundMepage to pay for her college to all
the listeners and to everyone on thispodcast. So thank you for your support
on that. I've been there,I've done it twice, Greg, and
my sympathies go out to you,not the GoFundMe. I was going to
(01:23):
say, I will put you downon the GoFundMe. That's a commitment.
Everyone's hut down for five bucks.Well, it's a start before we get
into the news this week, wewanted to throw something open to our listeners.
A lot of you have been withus for a while and maybe you
have always dreamed of being on theMore Perfect Union podcast. Well, your
(01:45):
opportunity may be here. We wouldlike to do an episode where we have
a mock jury deliberation of the Trumptrial. This would happen very close to
the end of final summations or afterfinal summation, but before the actual jury
reaches a verdict. We would liketo see how regular people would deliberate the
(02:07):
facts of this case based on whatthey've learned from television and from reading news
accounts about it. And so ifyou are interested in that, write to
us at mpupodcast at gmail dot com. Tell us in a few sentences about
yourself and if we think we canpull this thing together. We've never done
anything like this before. We willhave several, maybe twelve, maybe more,
(02:30):
maybe less of our listeners actually participatein a recording session and see where
it lands us in terms of ajury verdict. I was just about to
say, I don't think anyone's evertried this before, and this could be
the basis for a new judicial systemfor the country podcasting justice. Oh,
(02:51):
I was going to say, amore perfect judicial system. Oh, okay,
I like yours better, but Ilove it. I think it's much
more fair than what's going on inthe Supreme Court right now. I could
see. I could see people like, oh, this is this is true
justice. This is like, thisis like street justice. And if we
do this, I want to beDonald Trump. So you want to sleep
(03:14):
through it. I want to sleepthrough it and make like gross noises sort
of like what I do right nowon the podcast. So cool. So
we have that coming, uh,Like I said, the email address is
MPU podcast at gmail dot com.And by the way, if you just
want to send us a note sayingthat you listen and tell us what you
like or maybe what you'd like moreof or will like less of in the
(03:34):
podcast, please feel free to reachout to us. We would love to
hear from you. MPU podcast atgmail dot com. And with that said,
yes, there is a trial goingon in New York. Someone named
Donald J. Trump is at thedefense table. Jurors have been hearing from
Michael Cohen. He's still on thestand as we record this, and I'm
going to throw it to DJ first, what are your takeaways from what you've
(03:58):
learned about the case so far thisweek and where you think it's going and
how it might impact the election.I think Michael Cohen acquitted himself pretty well.
It does not appear to use thatword to quit. It makes me
nervous him. Well, yeah,I don't think the defense has really helped
(04:21):
itself much. I'm not really surewhat case the defense is going to present
because I'm not really sure what theirargument is. It's something between it didn't
happen, he was being shaken down, Michael Cohen did it on his own
volition, or it's scattershot. SoI am actually thinking there will be a
(04:47):
conviction out of this one from yourlips, from your lips to the jury's
ears. Now, that would bejury tampering, and that's a felony.
We're not allowed to do it.You're not allowed to kiss the ears of
Jewish. Yeah, well, Imean I think I don't know. They're
not supposed to listen to podcasts rightnow. Yeah. I tend to agree
(05:09):
with DJ that it seems like thedefense is trying to say that Michael Cohen
did this on his own, thathe was some kind of rogua agent within
the Trump organization. And what Ifound really amazing today was the lawyers,
you know, trying to make itall out as if Michael Cohen is doing
everything he's doing right now for money, like, oh, you have a
(05:30):
podcast and you make money of that, you sell merch and you make money
off that. The man they aredefending wrote a book called How to Get
Rich. For them to criticize anyonefor wanting to make money strikes me as
patently unfair. All right, I'mgoing to disagree with you all, and
I know, I know, I'mjust feeling really really froggy today, So
(05:53):
I'm going to jump and I wantto say I'm going to say that I
honestly think that right now, weall like, oh, yeah, this
this this case is in the bagbecause only the prosecution has really shown their
side. But when it comes tothe defense, what they're going to do,
and this is my belief, isthey're going to say Donald J.
(06:14):
Trump listened to his lawyer and hislawyer, and like we all would,
your lawyer comes and says, hey, we can make this problem go away.
We've got this. You pay meto do this. This is what
I would do. Sign this paperhere, take care of it. We're
done. I'm a lawyer. Iknow what I'm doing. And that's how
they're going to walk away with this. And they're only going to need one
(06:34):
person because their end of the speechis going to say, if you were
in trouble, wouldn't you trust yourlawyer to give you good advice? And
that's how it's going to be pinnedon Cohen. And even though he's a
bad lawyer, they're going to say, that's enough doubt that maybe maybe Donald
Trump isn't the smartest person in theroom. And the sleeping and the falling
(06:58):
asleep, and the and the wrappinghis pants, that's all helping him.
Hold up, hold up, holdup, hold up, hold up.
You go to your lawyer when youthink you're going to be arrested or when
you think you're going to be sued. You do not go to your lawyer
when you think you're going to beembarrassed or you're going to lose votes in
(07:19):
an election. No you do,Actually, no you don't. I have
been a candidate, I've seen gamingaids. You don't go to a lawyer.
You go to a campaign manager.The other thing I think we can
point to that is not in DonaldTrump's favor, is that this is a
pattern of behavior and that prior instancesof catch and kill operations, David Pucker
(07:45):
footed the bill and this was achange in pattern, and so they had
to come up with this whole financialscheme. And you know, he's the
meetings, the notes on invoices makeit very clear that Trump was aware that
(08:05):
they were trying to hide stories forthe sake of his election, and that
they were doing it using fraudulent businessrecords, like Michael Cohen told him he
was going to start a shell company. Like, you don't start a shell
company when you're on the upcome,at least, I don't. Maybe y'all
(08:26):
do my takeaway of the week.You know, obviously we all we can
hope for a conviction, or wemay think that unlikely. Obviously none of
us knows. But my takeaway inwatching the coverage is a couple of things.
First of all, I'm glad DJthat you use the word attorney.
I am so sick of hearing himcalled a fixer. There's no such thing
(08:48):
as a fixer, and network newsanchors should know better than to use terminology
like that. It's prejudicial, notthat they're in a courtroom, but it
just smacks of like buying into theTrump line. The fixer, the fixer,
what does that even mean. He'san attorney. He was Trump's attorney.
(09:09):
Another thing that I found interesting thisweek is everybody is talking about this
rule of case law, this ruleof criminal law, and I'm not going
to try to pronounce the Latin,but it means essentially lie about one thing.
You can assume they have lied abouteverything. And what the network people
keep hammering that to suggest that thejury doesn't have to believe Michael Cohen because
(09:37):
he lied a lot in the past, or because he was convicted of perjury.
That's not what that legal tenant means. What it means is if in
the case you're hearing, you believethe witness lied to you once, then
you can disregard everything that they've said. You know, everybody in the world
(09:58):
has lied in the past. MichaelCohen maybe has lied a little bit more
publicly, but every witness that getson the stand has some history of telling
a fib So the idea that MichaelCohen is immediately disqualified, and this is
what Fox News would have you believe, is immediately disqualified because of his past
(10:18):
missteps, whether they were legal,whether they were public relations, whether he
lied to Congress. If he acceptsthat, acknowledges that, and takes ownership
of that on the witness stand,and then the jury believes that other than
that he testified truthfully, they donot have to disregard his testimony. So
(10:39):
that's another place where I think thecable networks have done a great disservice to
this case and to the viewers whowant to understand our legal system. There
was one thing that struck me todayin Michael Cohen's testimony. He testified that
he did not invoice for actual legalservices he had committed for what's the word
(11:03):
contractive for with Donald Trump, likehe he had given legal advice or done
something legal for the Trump organization,but didn't get paid for it. He
did that out of the goodness ofhis heart. The only time he was
getting paid for stuff is apparently whenhe was doing these more fixer like job.
No offense Kevin for using that firm. I'm offended. I'm offended.
(11:26):
Well, you should call Kevin,you should call for a mistrial, a
miss podcast, this podcast, amiscast. Did they ever establish how much
how Michael Cohen got paid. Wasit like per like felonious or per like
evil deed or was it like likeseriously, was he on the payroll?
(11:46):
Did he get a you know,first, he was on the payroll of
Trump organization. Okay, And forthis particular payout, they took the amount
of money that he paid to StormyDaniels, right, they doubled it for
tax reasons. They added on someother moneies that he had laid out in
Trump's behalf in the past, andthey broke it up into some number of
(12:09):
equal payments of thirty five thousand dollars. Trump wrote a check for each one
of those payments, and it cameout of either the Trump organization. But
yes, he came out of theTrump organization. That's how we got paid.
No, he was. He waspaying out of the Trump Foundation and
then out of his own personal accounts, and he was making monthly installment payments
of thirty five thousand dollars for thecourse of e level. Okay. Well,
(12:33):
Alan Weisseelberg was somehow involved in it. So I thought it was the
Trump organization, but I could bewrong on that. Yeah, No,
I mean it was yeah, itwas it was going through the Trump organization,
but it was because the payments werehappening after the election. I don't
think Donald Trump could write checks fromthe Trump Organization because he had handed over
control of that, so it wascoming out of Trump Family Foundation or something
like that in his personal account.Okay, there were some political celebrities in
(12:58):
the courtroom this week's crazy with thatword celebrity. Let's slept family has has
avoided it, other than Eric Trump, by the way. I think we
will see Milania in courtroom before theend of the case. But that's just
a Oh. I'll put money downthat we won't. Okay, I'll bet
you like a hot fudge Sunday orwell, I'll tell you what. If
you're right, I will double myGoFundMe so excellent. Yeah, but I'm
(13:26):
gonna hold it that hot fudge Sunday. If I'm right, There's there's no
way she if she comes in,it will literally she'll wear a jacket that
says like I don't care, Iknow he's guilty, or I mean it
will say something horrendous. She willwear some fashion statement that will be literally
like it will be like a pictureof Stormy Daniels and a candle. I
(13:48):
mean, there is no way nowit'll be it'll be something like you know,
it said this would be versace ifhe hadn't spent all that money on
Michael Cohen. Well, the peoplethat were there were J. D.
Vance, Mike Johnson, Tommy Tubbervillewho was there earlier in the week,
Rich Scott, and I'm thinking I'mforgetting one or two ram Vivik Ramaswami.
(14:13):
That's the one I was I wassearching for in my mind. So all
of these surrogates were there because theycan say the stuff that the gag order
prevents Trump from saying. Do youthink that they actually help move any voters?
Or were they just such a farsecond to Donald Trump that they're really
just there for their own aggrandizement nothingelse. This is the vice presidential edition,
(14:37):
that's what this is. Yeah.Yeah, well it wasn't for Mike
Johnson. I don't think, ohyes, it was. Oh okay,
really well, he's not going tobe speaker again. But couldn't he go
to Divinity School or something just leaveus all out of his necks? No,
I mean, it's it's it's sadhow apparent these people are JD.
(15:00):
Vance left Ohio, my home state, and flew there, probably on money
that I paid somehow to back him. Just at a pathetic it's so thirsty.
It's so thirsty that he wants tobe vice president that bad that he's
willing to stand in a terrible,dingy courtroom all day and with these other
people who just want to be vicepresident that badly. They want their name
(15:26):
on that news so much. Yeah. Well, I mean, like if
you are a non mag of voterand you know you're seeing Mike Johnson,
the Speaker of the House, youknow, standing outside this courtroom calling this
whole trial a travesty. If Trumpgets convicted, like, is that going
(15:46):
to sour you to the whole party? I think it might. Like if
you're you know, seeing the leadershipof one of the two major parties all
you know, bowing and scraping overthis guy who's just like making shady finance
dealings, it's just gross. It'sso remember that scene in Donnie Brasco where
there's like a bunch of mobsters sittingaround a wood paneled room and one of
(16:08):
them is literally taking a hammer toa parking meter. And that's the level
of crime they're committing, like tryingto break up in a parking met This
was That's what this is starting tofeel like. It's not sexy, cool
godfather mob stuff. It is DonnieBrasco hammer to a parking meter mobs.
Yep. So we recently discussed someof the security concerns and the physical security
(16:33):
of election workers and election sites.The Justice Department announced it's finally taking those
threats seriously. Do you think aconviction in the Trump trial will increase the
danger at the polls in November ormight actually create violence before then? Or
again, do they live in separate, parallel universes. It all kind of
(16:55):
depends. Even if there's a conviction, assuming that he'd be like in some
sort of of a feel process,his name will still be on a ballot,
and I don't know that that wouldcause potential violence at the bulls.
If somehow he is not like ifhe isn't able to go to conventions,
if it seems like he is beingforced out of this election, I think
(17:18):
that causes more of a problem thanjust a straight up conviction. And speaking
of violence, wal campus protests spillover to problems on election day. I
would actually be surprised. Yeah,I mean we've seen the we've seen the
ranking of where actual students' concerns,and we've actually looked at the numbers,
(17:40):
and yes, there are of whatcollege students are concerned about, and and
these protests are relatively small, andwe don't know where we're going to be
in six months. And I knowwe've talked about it. I know I'm
the minority. You guys still thinkthey're going to be college protests in four
or five months. I just don'tsee it, or maybe I'm wrong,
(18:03):
but you know, I think I'mmore concerned about, you know, people
with AK forty seven's or ak ARfifteen excuse me, who are patrolling to
make sure you know, That's whereI'm more concerned about. I'm concerned about
both. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah. I don't think the trial itself for
the conviction will make an impact oneway or the other on election day security.
(18:29):
Yes, I'm using the inverted commaswhen I say that, because you
know, the wackos are going towacko and they're going to be dangerous,
and the fact that the Department ofJustice is looking at it is a good
thing and that they're taking it Seriously, I don't think the protests are going
to have much of an impact because, and I'm going to take this sort
of a from a different angle here, I think the Israeli operation in Gaza
(18:55):
is looking more and more ineffective.Hamas is creeping in its way back into
the north of Gaza, which wassupposedly cleared of all Hamas people. And
as more of this goes on,and this becomes essentially two thousand bomb whackable
instead of an actual attempt to eliminateHamas from Gaza in a systematic manner,
(19:17):
Biden is going to have a lotmore leeway to say Israel self sabotaging and
I cannot sit here and help Israelself sabotage. He will be in a
he will be in have more roomto criticize Israel, the Israeli government's actions,
because there are already people inside Israelwho are criticized to these reel government
actions, including in the IDF.So the protesters, they're going to have
(19:42):
their hardcore of Biden haters. Thoseare always going to be there. But
the the political power that they hadin terms of angry democrats really upset over
Gaza not voting for Joe Biden.I don't think that's going to be happening
in the fall, because of theBiden is going to have to be far
more critical of Israel in September inOctober than he is now, because by
(20:07):
then will become more and more obviousthat what Israel is doing is not working.
And while that will be bad forIsrael, let alone Gaza, it
will be good for Biden because itmeans that those anti war Democrats for lack
of a better term, will feelmore comfortable voting for him because he will
feel more comfortable criticizing Israel. Okay, And speaking of protests, how about
(20:30):
protests votes? Nicki Haley is runningas we speak in the Maryland primary against
one Donald J. Trump, AndI'm going to throw to Rebecca Kushmeider,
who is our reporter on the field, reporter on the field, on the
ground, on the iPad. AsI am looking at results, we have
four hundred and seventy nine precincts reportingof nineteen hundred and fifty Yeah, nineteen
(20:51):
hundred and fifty seven, And atthe moment, Nicki Haley has twenty one
point forty eight percent of the primaryvote against Donald J. Trump. Now
At the moment, Biden only haseighty eight percent of the Democratic vote.
We've got an eight point two ninepercent going to uncommitted. But that feels
(21:12):
performative. It doesn't feel like peoplewho and I have nothing to base this
on, but it doesn't feel likethese are people who are going to peel
off from Biden in the general.They're just trying to make a point right
now. And I think, asDJ said, the situation is in so
much flux that we can't really predicthow people are going to feel about it
(21:33):
six months down the road. Italso says something in a Democrat This is
obviously Maryland is a very democratic state, but we're looking at a primary where
there are twice as many Democrats votingas there are are Republicans, and Nicki
Haley still has exactly actually that's somegood mouth in their deete, thank you,
(21:55):
And Nicki Haley still has more votesthan uncommitted Democrats. Now that's the
case in a state like Maryland,which is fallover democratic, then in some
of the swing states, that meansthe un That means in some of these
swing states, Donald Trump will bebleeding far many more Republicans than Joe Biden
(22:15):
is bleeding Democrats, even if Iam wrong about what I said ten minutes
ago, and I'm not wrong,So you know, even at its worst,
this is looking very good. Thisthis is a very good sign for
Biden in November. Much better signedthan that horrible New York Times sienapol that
(22:36):
said that the rural vote would betwice what it actually is on election day.
I'm still mad about that. It'salso worth noting that the uncommitted vote
is purposeful. It is it's amessage being sent using a very specific tool
with which to send it. Thepeople voting for Nicki Haley are just voting
for a candidate who's not in therace, like uncommitted is. Basically it's
(22:57):
a vote for the people of Gazaand a plea for mercy on the people
of Gaza, whereas voted for NickyHaley is just a big middle finger to
Donald J. Trump. I'd liketo think, and I've spoken to some
people who have voted for Nicki Haleyeven past and they've all said they actually
(23:18):
believe that this will send a messagethat they hope that one Donald Trump won't
be which is ridiculous. The actualcandidate for the GOP, which that's not
going to happen at this point.And two they still hope that this will
send a message that maybe he willbe a more middle of the road representative
(23:41):
a candidate and he will temper someof this, and this will send a
message which also will not happen wellin policy wise. Nicki Haley is no
more moderate than Donald Trump is.She's just as conservative as the most conservative.
She's not like a middle of theroad normal person. Hold it,
hold it, hold it, holdit. Nicky Haley is a hard right
(24:03):
conservative from twenty fourteen. That's notconsidered hard right conservative anymore. If you
support NATO, if you support ifyou're not an isolationist, and if you're
not a protectionist, apparently you're nota conservative in twenty twenty four So Nicki
Haley and Donald Trump do have somevery serious policy disagreements. Okay, neither
(24:25):
of them would be comfortable in theDemocratic Party obviously, But people who are
voting for Nicky Haley have their reasons, and yes, some of them are
policy reasons. Some of them isa friend of mine who just wanted a
chance to vote against Donald Trump.He's going to do it again November,
but he wanted to do it.He wanted to do it in March,
just to feel good about it,just to see Donald Trump at the ballot
and to pick somebody else. Iget that. I'm cool with that.
(24:48):
There's no guarantee that these voters aregoing to come back to Donald Trump anymore
than there's no guarantee that they're allgoing to go to Joe Biden. In
fact, I'm pretty sure that neitherof those are going to happen. But
they are in play. They arevotes that Biden can get, their votes
that the Democrats can get if theyput up the right candidates and if they
put up the right issues. Andmaybe we'll talk about that later. So
(25:18):
we've been talking about percentages as theypertain to primaries, but there's also polling
data. I'll tell you one thingabout getting to the ultimately to the November
election and beyond it, win forJoe Biden or win for Donald Trump.
What will be wonderful is that nothaving to think in terms of percentages every
(25:38):
time something's on the news. Butwe do still have to think about percentages
in terms of polling. DJ thishas been a craw in your claw.
I don't know what that means thishas been bothering you for weeks and months
now, the way polling institutions arestill polling the American electorate. So I'm
(26:00):
going to throw to you and justgive you a chance to vent one more
time. Okay, So, yes, the New York Times c Ina poll
has long been a stick in mycraw. I believe that's the actual phrase.
It probably is, and it madeup for craw. I don't believe.
I have no idea what a crawis. Acras is something a bird
(26:22):
uses to help digest food. Really, yeah, right, if I'm correct.
But in February when they put outthe pole that said Trump is up
five points nationally, and everyone weren'tran around the chickens with their head with
their heads on fire, chickens withtheir heads cut off. See, I
get my met works, I getmy metaphors confused too. I took a
(26:45):
look at the sampling data. Youcould have a chicken with its head on
fire? Is possible? Yes?Indeed, I looked at this, at
the sample data, and I foundthat they were showing the rural vote to
be thirty five percent of their pollingsample in twenty twenty, the national rural
vote was seventeen percent. In twentytwenty two, which was a slightly better
(27:07):
year for Republicans, it was nineteenpercent. So when this pole came out
saying Donald Trump leads in five outof six swing states, I said,
Okay, let's take a look attheir samples, and when you know it,
each and every single state has ahigher rural sample than you saw in
the twenty twenty two exit poll.Had they used the twenty twenty two exit
(27:32):
poll waiting for the types of neighborhoods, Joe Biden would have been ahead by
six points in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin,and Michigan. He'd be only down four
in Arizona. He'd be only downfive in Georgia. So I'm not saying
that's how we should actually look atthe race with my weird analogous math.
No, no, no. Mypoint is this poll sucks, and this
(27:52):
pole sucks bigger and worse than otherpolls that have sucked, not only because
it got this so bad wrong,but because it's the New York Times and
everybody pays attention to it. Soeveryone is going to react on bad data
because the New York Times can't figureout how to keep the farmers and the
(28:12):
hay seed folks out of their polling. I have two quick points. First,
as I heard a pulling analysis,I think it was after twenty twenty,
and it was talking about the ideaof modeling where polling is no longer
about trying to create an accurate snapshotin time, but about trying to beat
(28:34):
the odds of being wrong. Andyou know, it's become about there it
is more likely that so and sowill win than so and so will win,
but it's not impossible for so andso to win, so that the
pollsters are never wrong. And Ithink that's part of Nate Silver's form of
modeling, where you know, he'snot trying to eliminate possibilities, he's just
(28:59):
trying to quantify. And the otherthing to remember is that whatever polling we're
looking at is far less precise andfar less accurate than whatever internal pulling the
campaigns have. And you know,I remember a quote after twenty sixteen where
somebody commented that Hillary's internal polling hadbeen showing for numbers in free fall,
(29:22):
and they said nobody was less surprisedthan Hillary Clinton lost than Hillary Clinton.
So Donald Trump is not. AndJoe Biden are not making their decisions based
on the New York Times Siena poll. That's just us running around Blake chickens
with our factors cut off or whatevermetaphor Greg was butchering earlier. And you
know, we can, we canstand around and be angry about it.
(29:47):
But the campaigns are seeing a different, possibly more real reality and making their
decisions off that. Let's move onto foreign affairs, which we haven't really
touched on a whole lot in thelast several Ukraine, the war continues,
there have been some developments there fightingto protect Kharkiv. Did I pronounce that
(30:07):
correctly? You did? And obviouslyIsrael seems to have enough troops perched on
Rafa that they could go in andbegin their offensive there if they so choose
to. With that in mind,DJ, you are our resident foreign affairs
expert, why can't the Democrats justcall their opponents an American for not supporting
(30:33):
Ukraine and parading the Moscow line?Right? This is actually the question that
I threw out because while I dothis out because I know far less about
how democratic campaigns operate than the threeof you, Because I'm far less,
I'm far less experienced with the DemocraticParty than all of you are. If
I were a Republican still and thiswas a this and the Republicans were trying
(30:59):
to get funding for you Craine andthe Democrats were trying to stop it and
parroting Moscow's lines, I know exactlywhat the Republican Party would do. They
would say those people are un American. You cannot be a patriot and vote
for them. At the same timeyou have to do you are either one
or the other. You know,the little bumper stickers. There are Americans
in their Liberals back from the nineteeneighties and nineties, they would be all
(31:22):
over the place, okay, Andin fact they're still doing that kind of
thing over there, even as theyare parroting a foreign tyrants line. I'm
just wondering what is it about theDemocratic Party and the Democratic Party coalition that
they can't find. If not thePresident himself, then at least some senators
some congressmen stand up and say theRepublican Party is no longer acceptable in American
(31:47):
society. You can no longer bea patriot and vote Republican. That should
be part of the campaign. Itwould be part of the campaign if I
were running it, it's not partof the campaign. And as you are
all much more experienced with the DemocraticParty than I am, I would like
to hear from you on why thatisn't happening. Because Democrats are very accepting
(32:07):
on the macro, but very punitiveon the micro. So if somebody is
parroting Russian talking points, we will, you know, we'll give them a
lot of leeway to do that becausewe believe in freedom of beach and freedom
of expression. If they actually were, you know, found to be a
Russian spy, we would most certainlysend them to jail. Whereas Republicans are
(32:29):
the opposite. They're very judgmental onthe macro, but forgiving on the micro.
Like you know, Doutshot, notcommit adultery, God said not to.
But if you're Donald Trump, it'sprobably okay. We can find a
reason to forgive that. So wewill never call anyone not a patriot unless
they have committed some sort of actthat is demonstrably unpatriotic. Okay, Well,
(32:49):
Greg hasn't spoken on this subject yet, but I'm going to disagree with
him. You're saving him so muchtime. All I'm doing is most to
the to the microphone and going andKevin just just helping me out here.
It's just saving me a lot oftime and effort. So I was just
joking, do you have anything tothrow in? Actually, what's really funny
(33:12):
is I was literally just about tosay acceptance. That's what Democrats do.
We accept and as much as theGOP will say like, oh, we
are just you know, Democrats areso judgmental and it's so tough being a
white male in today's society. It'sit's it's that's what's keeping us from doing
that exact same thing, like you'renot part of America? Is that that's
(33:37):
like the liberals big thing is,hey, everybody's part. Everyone's part of
this big crazy experiment here. Well, my observation on this is I actually
think Democrats are doing it. Ijust think that they don't ring bells as
loudly as Republicans do. Every timeI see a congressman or senator address this
(33:57):
issue, they do point out thatit's not American, it's not the policies
of Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush, and certainly not John
Kennedy. Why it's not resonating that'sa different discussion. But I do think
that they're making that case. Itjust hasn't cut. It hasn't broken through,
is what you're saying, Kevin.We need more cow bell on this
(34:19):
issue. We need more cow bell. Cowbell episode title, more cow bell.
And for our last topic, I'mactually gonna throw to you, Rebecca.
You observed something when you were goingthrough Twitter this week that we thought
might make for an interesting topic.Why don't you take this one? Oh?
(34:39):
Yes? Andy Biggs of Arizona tweetedout last night that Americans commit three
felonies a day. He said that, yeah, and it's it's nine to
fifty one. I've committed no feloniestoday. I didn't commit any yesterday.
I'm going to have to commit ninefelonies tomorrow just to catch up. You
know, I'm so far behind forthis week and possibly also my whole life.
(35:01):
And I guess there's an economic principlethat like any you know, businesses
that don't can accidentally commit felonies byfallowing a foul of regulations. It's a
it's a libertarian book saying you knowthat we need to do a regulations because
they're causing felonies. I don't know, but my my question for all of
(35:23):
you is, if you had to, you know, commit a Baker's dozen
felonies this week, how would youreach that quota? Like, how would
you how would you make those kindof numbers? What felonies would you commit?
Greg metus act. You know,I was I saw that on the
rundown and I was thinking, like, so I got it confused. I
(35:43):
felt like sins, like I wouldprobably eat a lot and you know,
that would be my gluttony right there, But that's not really a sin.
There's you know, And as faras felonies, I'm actually the guy who
everyone honks at because I drive thespeed limit. Everyone hates it, and
I don't do it. That's afelony in Texas, let me tell you.
(36:04):
I know. But I don't doit in the left lane. I
do it in the middle lane sopeople can pass me safely, even I'm
very careful about that, and Iuse my turn signal, so it wouldn't
be a driving offense, you know. I I have been accused of like
breaking like the laws of man becauseI like groups like the Beegs, but
(36:25):
gosh, they're really good and Ican defend it to you know, So
I mean I would be really,really hard pressed. I'll have to think
about I'll have to call some ofmy ex girlfriends who have terrible things to
say about me. Ah, Idon't know. Yeah, what about you,
dude, what what felonies would youcommit to get yourself to it three
(36:46):
a day? Well, I'm ina polyamorous marriage, so adultery wherever adultery
is a felony or misdemeanor that practically, by definition is something think that happens.
But is it any in Virginia?Still, it's a misdemeanor in Virginia,
it's a fell o mother states.Well maybe if you do it in
(37:07):
commission of like election interference, right, Okay, But I'm not planning for
doing that. I'm just I'm tryingto help there. There are times where
I have accelerated on an interstate wheremy where my speeding could be in the
reckless category. It's no more thanfive or ten seconds, but that might
(37:29):
be enough. I don't know,I don't I really can't think of anything
else at the moment. What aboutyou, Kevin, would you what would
you do it? Well? Well, I would have to cut down on
my fellow needs to get to threeday. Thank goodness, somebody is overachieving
in this group, you might have, you know, no slacking. Hold
(37:51):
up, he's a resident of Texas. That's illegal in fifteen states. Already.
There you go, There you go. And a couple of things I
want to say on that if.First of all, unfortunately by a conflating
committing felonies and DJ's marriage with theDonald Trump trial, Rebecca, you've put
the image in my head of DJin red satin pjs. Oh, I'm
(38:14):
so sorry. I don't think I'mever gonna get that out of my head.
Yeah, I'm sorry. I shouldn'thave done that. But I've been
thinking about what felonies I would needto commit to get up there, and
I basically I I'm going to haveto go to the zoo and steal all
the penguins and possibly take them acrossstate lines, and if necessary, I
will carry a weapon to the zooso that it's an armed robbery when I'm
(38:36):
stealing the penguins. I don't I'mnot sure what consists of a weapon when
you're in a penguin enclosure, maybelike frozen fish or something. But yeah,
I'm gonna have to start stealing zooanimals. But I don't want scary
zoo animals. I'm going to stickwith like penguins or maybe those little capuchin
monkeys that you could like wear onyour shoulders. Are you serious? Have
you not? Have you not seenthe penguins of Madagascar? Wolski's already got
(39:00):
a plan that you will not survive. Rico is vomiting weapons as we speak.
And why do you think I chosepenguins here? DJ, I'm an
operative, I'm not just a prettyface. Maybe I mean I'm I'm in
league with the penguins. With that, we want to thank everybody for listening.
(39:24):
If you enjoy what we do here, please follow us on Instagram at
MPU fan Club, and don't forgetto share our link on your Facebook timeline
and your Instagram timeline so your friendscan discover us as well. And also,
we have a new substack blog pagecalled MPU Podcast where we occasionally drop
essays. I'm working on a newone for this week. Hopefully I'll get
(39:46):
it out before our next show,and you can see us discuss issues and
sometimes debate with each other in thesubstack between shows and as we head into
our goodbye theme music. We wantto thank Alan Kenny for our theme song,
And I'm going to throw this opento Greg Rebecca DJ. What kind
(40:10):
of nachos will you be eating whenMichael Cohen takes the stand again on cross
examination tomorrow. Probably I was goingto put some sort of oil on them,
because that's what fixers. Ah
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