Debate Nachos Gone Sour (Episode 389)

This week's podcast looks at the fallout from the presidential debate and how Democrats should respond. 

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Episode Transcript

(00:13):
Welcome to the More Perfect Union,the podcast that offers real debate without the
hate. I'm your host, RebeccaKushmeider, and as always, I am
joined by Kevin Kelton. This week, I'm a handwringing bed wedding Democrat from
Texas. Greg Matuzach, your commonsense liberal from Cincinnati. It's it's been

(00:33):
a rough week and I'm hoping thiswill be in lieu of therapy. I'll
be able to exercise some some feelingsthis week. So strap in everybody and
DJ maguire, you know, listeningto the two of you, I had
no idea you were so worried aboutthe faith. The British Tories are going

(00:54):
to suffer on Thursday. Something else? Oh, Dj, you always underestimate
the money my care for the Britishdoogany the BBC viewing. Well, before
we get started today, I'd liketo establish the format for this discussion.
I will ask a series of questions. Each of you will be given two
minutes to say anything you want.At no point should you answer the question

(01:15):
as asked. If you have timeleft over, Jake Tapper will appear and
plaintively repeat the question, and youshould then refrain from answering it, you
will get a one minute rebuttal.If somebody says something you don't like,
you should not address what they said. At the end, America will need
to do shots. Are we allagreed? I've been doing shots since Thursday

(01:38):
night, so I don't know howmuch more I can do. All right,
Well, I'm going to start withbefore we get into really the substance
of discussing the debate, I'm goingto ask the classic question that we would
see in a typical campaign year,who do you think one this debate?
And I'm going to start with you, Greg, because you're the nicest,

(02:02):
so so I'll usually I say likeeverybody won, I think, but I'll
go participation trophies for everyone, includingDana Bash. There were no true winners,
I think, And this is thisis really tough. I think.
You know, Biden obviously did nothave his best night, but neither did

(02:24):
Trump, and neither did Jake Tapper. No one did well that night,
and neither did America. Neither didthe viewers. Nobody came away from that
feeling like this was great. Thereare certain groups that came away feeling like
the other team did worse or poorer. But that's not a win, and

(02:45):
I think we have to think aboutexpectations. But there was nobody who came
away with like a solid victory.Kevin, do you have a take on
who won the debate? I thinkDonald Trump won and I think he won
handily. And look, I acknowledgethat I don't know whether two straight words
of truth came out of his mouthduring that debate. He did say he

(03:07):
golfs. Yeah, well there yougo. Okay, so he did tell
one truth. Oh gosh, Ihave so much to say about that golf
section. But I watched. Youknow, we're evaluating both of them,
and we're going to be talking about, obviously the president's performance. But Donald

(03:27):
Trump turned in his best debate performanceever. Now we can say that's a
low bar, but he looked good. He was sharper than I expected him
to be, and I want toelaborate on that a little bit as the
show goes on. His answers were, especially in the first part of the

(03:49):
debate. For the most part focused. He scored points against Joe Biden.
Now we may not like the points. We might be able to counter his
points more effectively than the current presidentof the United States did, but if
we're being fair and we're taking awaythe oh that's Donald Trump and everything about

(04:12):
him is evil stuff. He hada great night, and that's one of
the problems that I think we needto address. I don't. I mean,
I thought the whole event was losinga losing enterprise. Joe Biden sounded
like a kid who had over preparedfor a presentation and was determined to rattle
off every fact he'd memorized in nological order, simply because he'd memorized them.

(04:35):
Donald Trump sounded like a kid whohad not prepared at all and was
trying to talk around everything because hedidn't actually know the answer. You know,
if you're grading on substance, JoeBiden won. He did no facts.
He did understand the context in history, he just was unable in two
minute fights to articulate it. Well, if you're judging on showmanship, donald

(04:56):
Trump won because Donald Trump always winson showmanship. But he also was saying
things like we can now use spaceage materials and you don't have to go
to Europe or Asia when you're terminallyill. That's a direct quote. So
if you're judging on people who whospeak things that make any sense or have
any value. Donald Trump was noteven competing in that. I think Jake,

(05:17):
I think CNN lost on structuring adebate. I think advertisers lost because
there was only one ad break andI lost brain cells. So that's my
take. DJ. Joe Biden wonthe debate, bump bump. It wasn't
a pretty win. It was anugly win. Kevin, You a Giant

(05:39):
fan or a Jets fan, probablya Giants fan, Okay, but so
you may not remember. It's almostbut I have a six handicap. DJ.
In football, they give you atouchdown just for walking on the field.
Okay, So okay, Kevin givessix points when he goes on the
football field. I didn't know that. But there was when I was a

(05:59):
Jet fan and a senior in college, there was a game between the Jets
and the Washington Redskins. It wasplayed on a Saturday. It was the
only game on TV for which thenation has never forgiven those two teams.
The score was three to nothing.The highlight was was the Jet placekicker getting
hit in the head with the ball. It was the ugliest win of all
time. But the Jets still wonthe game. And that's how I'm seeing

(06:24):
Thursday's debate. Yes, Joe Bidenfirst tried to say a bunch of things
too fast and reminded us all ofnineteen eighties Joe Biden, who was a
gaff machine. But Donald Trump hadan allergic reaction to the truth. He
gave a lie every single minute,and while he didn't hesitate in anything he

(06:44):
said, so he didn't seem slow, he did seem like a lunatic.
And from what I have seen ofFrank Luntz's focus group, when I've seen
the Cenn focus group, when I'veseen of the Univision folks group that looked
at it, while they all hadserious questions about Joe Biden, they all
agreed Donald Trump was a liar anda lunatic and shouldn't be anywhere near the

(07:05):
White House. I think Donald Trumpactually hurt himself more than Joe Biden did,
because while the four of us haveknown that Donald Trump has been slipping
and that he has been lying alot more than he used to eight and
even four years ago, most ofthe American people hadn't quite seen that,
especially your swing voters who don't getall that into politics and who've just heard

(07:29):
over and over again, Joe byNol, Joe Biden, Ole, Joe
by Noljoe by Nold. They hadthat confirmed and we will discuss that.
But they saw Donald Trump really forthe first time in three to four years,
and frankly, he came off worse. People can actually fact check on
their own and if Google search isany indication, they did what he actually

(07:51):
said and find out that yet itwas complete bullshit. So, like I
said, it was an ugly win. Certainly there are questions for the Biden
campaign to answer, no doubt,but I think Donald Trump actually did worse
at that debate than Joe Biden,and that means that Joe Biden won.

(08:13):
And we were about this is thisis going to kind of lead us into
our next segment of this discussion.You know, we talk about age.
Are these candidates too old? Andyou might as well ask do humans need
a third arm? Well, yeah, maybe we do. But this is
the status quo we've got and thepresumptive major party nominees are Joe Biden and

(08:35):
Donald Trump, and they are eightyone and seventy eight years old, respectively,
and whether that's too old or not, one of them is going to
be president next January. Despite allour best efforts, someone has to be
president of the United States. Well, I'm not sure that we've made our
best efforts yet, and we'll talkabout that. So yeah, So,
Kevin, what you said is wehave despite all our best efforts. You

(08:58):
don't think we have employed all ourbestefs yeat And this goes into some of
the discussion that we've been seeing amongthe punditry, not among party leadership from
either actual party yet, but simplyamong we know that we know it,
but among the commentariat, we arehearing a lot of calls for a shake
up on the Democratic ballot. AndKevin, I know you have strong feelings

(09:18):
about this. I'm going to giveyou your two minutes before Jake Tapper shows
up and doesn't tell you not todo it. I'm going to blow through
those two minutes, and I apologizewith that. First of all, DJ,
I want to respond to the focusgroups that you cited with my own

(09:39):
very unscientific focus group. I watchedthe debate with my two sons who happened
to be in town. I alsohave a stepson that wasn't with us,
but heard from him after the debate. They're all in their twenties. They
should be prime Joe Biden voters.I watched the debate with my two and

(10:01):
they were gone on Joe Biden withinten minutes, maybe within five. And
I had some discussions with them duringand after the debate, and they will
not vote for this man. Infact, my oldest son, who's more
likely to go to the polls,said I'll probably just vote down ballot and

(10:22):
won't vote for president at all.My youngest son isn't even sure he's going
to he's going to register where helives. He lives in a different state
from where he was registered before.And my stepson shares a lot of their
feelings. And they each told methat all of their friends, all of

(10:45):
their friends are saying the same thing. They're not voting for Joe Biden.
And it's not for this group ofpeople. It's not because of the Gaza
war, it's not because of inflation, it's not because of student debt.
They think he's too old to bepresident, and they will not vote for

(11:05):
him. And they resent people likeme and people that they think of our
generation for sticking them with this choice. Yes, the four of us know
one of those two old guys isgoing to be the next president unless something
drastic happens. But younger people donot make that pragmatic, rational choice.

(11:31):
They say, fuck you for puttingus in this position. We're not playing
your game. Right, So theydon't understand math. They do understand them.
No, they absolutely understand. Theyabsolutely Greg, I'm telling you,
they understand that that Donald Trump islikely to win. They're not cool with

(11:52):
it. You're missing No, I'mnot. You are actually missing the greater
point. No, the greater pointis you're you're looking at the immediate point.
I'm looking at the greater point.I'm telling you. The greater point
is Donald Trump. Excuse me.The greater point is Joe Biden is not
getting those votes right now November.I agree with you there, and they're

(12:13):
fine with that. And there Idon't agree with you, but later you
don't agree with me. Or Idon't agree with Kevin, but I'll get
to that later, right, right, right, So, and this,
I've had this discussion with with thewith the youth of America, with the
utes, and we keep going tothe same thing with Look, I'm not

(12:35):
I hate the fact that this person'snot a good choice for me. My
vote is sacred and the whole thing. And I said, so you're fine
with Donald Trump. No, Ihate Donald Trump. Well, a vote
not for Biden is a vote forTrump. That's not how this works.
I said, well, that's basicmath. And they keep going and we
keep going around and round, andI go, so you're voting for Trump
and they're like, no, I'mjust not voting. That's a vote for

(12:58):
Trump. I had this conversation withall three and they don't understand basic math.
Then, no, they do understandit. It's protest. No.
No, what they've decided is thatthey are willing to live with the consequences
of making this choice, and they'reengaging in a form of political masturbation that
is very satisfying to them but ultimatelysatisfies nobody else except Donald Trump. And

(13:18):
if that is a decision that theyare willing to make and that they can
live with the consequences of that,there is nothing any of us can do
about it. Right, But Idon't think they understand the consequences. I
know they are telling you that theywill never vote for Joe Biden. I
don't believe that. Now there maybe a few of them who will definitely,

(13:39):
you know, have their colors nailsto the mask and say forget it
donald Trump's You know that they maythey because they are young. Donald Trump
is normal to them, and that'ssomething that we have to take into consideration.
Voters who are, particularly voters undertwenty five or voters under thirty,
Donald Trump is normalized in a waythat he's not normalized to us. And
that's something that affect them in away that doesn't affect us, and we

(14:01):
have to understand that. Secondly,I hate to do this, Greg,
but your math is wrong. No, your math is wrong. A refusal
to vote is half a vote forDonald Trump, not a full vote for
Donald Trump. You're right there,Okay, but now I do not want
to give him half a vote.But that's a different discussion than giving him
a full vote, which and noneof these people are willing to do.

(14:24):
I do, however, think betweennow and November, more than a few
of them will go. As muchas I don't like this guy, as
much as I don't think he's cutout for it, he's not a liar,
he's not a lunatic, and hedoesn't have a bunch of wackos working
for him. I'll swallow hard andI will vote for Joe Biden. Not
all of them, certainly, andmaybe not maybe not your three kids,

(14:50):
Kevin, but definitely all the peoplethey talk to, more than a few
of them are gonna en up votingfor Joe Biden in November. I think
a few of them will yes,yes, and maybe maybe more than half
will yes. Now what I thinkis going to what I think is going
to help, which was new fromThursday, was that Joe Biden now has

(15:11):
another line of attack on Trump andthat Trump is completely dishonest. The four
of us kind of knew that,but Donald Trump's whole stick for eight years
has been has been he tells itlike it is, and for voters who
are not really politically engaged, that's, oh, well, he's the one
honest man. No, he's notan honest man. He's the most dishonest
guy who's ever been in politics.And the one poll post of eight poll

(15:35):
I've seen in his data for Progressand Yes, it had Trump on the
right side of the margin era likeit always has, but it also included
for the first time that the votersconsider Joe Biden to be more honest than
Donald Trump. That's new. Thatwasn't there last week, and that is
you know that is and Biden usedthat on Friday in his speech in North
Carolina. He said, I knowhow to tell the truth. The other

(15:58):
guy doesn't. And I think ifhe, if he hits that enough.
Actually, Joe Biden told some somesome whoppera lies during that debate as well.
If we're being totally honest, hehe let's we could be kind and
say he misstated facts, but hetold some incorrect facts and more than once,

(16:21):
right, DJ, don't you acknowledgethat? Yes, I will acknowledge
it. But that Biden said saida few things that were definitely questionable.
But Joe, but Donald Trump spokefor thirty minutes and told thirty lies.
That's a lie a minute. Thefact check from the fact check from Daniel
Dale was longer than what Trump wastalking. There is a vast difference between

(16:45):
the two. And I think ifvoters understand that Donald Trump is not just
you know, your typical politician wholies every now and then it helps,
but he lies as he breathes.That's very different because he wasn't like that
sick eight years ago. He wasn'teven like that four years ago. He's
worse on that. Now. I'mgoing to jump in here and say,

(17:07):
the reason Donald Trump is lying moreand also making more statements that are utterly
empty is because he no longer feelsany need to prepare or play the game
of politics he was using. Hebasically broke his stump speech into two minute
soundbites and that's all he uses.He has realized that he can dispense with
facts, he can dispense with substance, and just simply p T. Barnum
his way through this, and thatis what he will do in a presidency

(17:30):
too. He is vapid. Heis a Petempkin candidate. The other thing
I am hearing from all of youas we're sitting here discussing math and who
will and won't vote for Joe Bidenand what the ultimate number tally is going
to be is goddamn it, weare going to end up forcing black women
to save our collective asses again.And I am so sorry to the black

(17:51):
women Democratic electorate who has been carryingall of us for the past I don't
know how many decades. One ofthese days somebody else will decide to do
this work alongside you. I'm goingto try. I don't know how much
I'm worth, but I do apologizethat we're putting you in this position again.
There's a there was a recent pollby CBS and you gov, and

(18:14):
this was put out on January twentyfifth this year where the youth vote was
twenty three points plus for say,was sixty to thirty eight or something ridiculous
for in June twenty fifth. Yousaid, January June twenty fifth, I'm
sorry, June twenty fifth, Yeah, that was his best pole among young
voters, right, I mean,it's unless the debate, Unless you know,

(18:37):
a wide margin of youth voters sawthe debate and we're like, okay,
it's it's out for me. Theyouth vote is overwhelming towards Biden.
And not to contradict the anecdotal evidence. And you even said this was anecdote,
this was a personal story. Yes, yes, yeah, And and
I grant you that. So Iknow we're seeing the polling, which we

(19:00):
all can say what we say aboutpolling. Young people are still doing this.
So I kind of still have faithin the youth in America because they
do know math, even this newmath, if they teach in school.
So Kevin can I ask a question, You're sure where what states do your

(19:22):
children live in? One lives inMassachusetts, to live in California, Okay,
and I assume all their friends arefrom the same Yeah. Probably Okay,
Yeah, Now, because one thingwe also have to taken into account
is that is that you know,all voters have an understanding of the electoral
college. And I would suspect votersin California and Massachusetts for that matter,

(19:45):
which is more democratic than California,on some days they probably feel like their
vote is not as necessary in apresidential election. And in a state like
California Massachusetts, I can see thatif somebody from Michigan said that I might
hunt what but you know, I'veactually if they thought, if they thought

(20:06):
there if I'll talk about one ofmy sons, the one who said that
he's only going to vote down ballot. If he thought that his vote wasn't
counting because he lives in a solidlyblue state, then he would be able
to vote for Joe Biden. He'sactually trying to register a vote that's meaningful
to him. So I'm not sure, I fully I know where you're going

(20:29):
dj the whole thing with my votedoesn't count, so I have the luxury
of a protest vote. But Idon't think that's what this is. It's
a matter of competing incentives, theincentive of making sure that this making sure
that Donald Trump doesn't get anywhere nearthe White House again, and venting frustration
at at what they think the DemocraticParty is doing. If you were in
a state like Michigan or Wisconsin orOhio, Ohio is not a swing state,

(20:56):
stop at Greg. You know theincentive, Yes, he might be
the only one voting. The incentivefor keeping out Donald Trump in a state
like that is large enough he cansay, Okay, I might tactically vote
for Joe Biden to keep Donald Trumpout, and I'm sorry, yes,

(21:18):
I'm using the British trim tactically voting, because of course I've been immersing the
British election all month. But inCalifornia and Massachusetts, there's no need to
worry about tactical voting. The incentiveto keep Donald Trump out with your vote
is a lot smaller, because youknow, they are all sorts of people
are more than We'll do that inCalifornia. So you look at you know,
down ballot racer a different matter particularlyif it's what Orange, particularly if

(21:40):
he's an Orange county. I don'tknow what county lives in, but if
he lives in a competitive county,then yeah, he better vote down ballot
and he will. So again,I still think a number of them will
vote, will vote for Joe Bidenin the end, but I'm not going
to be It doesn't surprise me thatvoters in heavily blue or even heavily red
states will feel like their vote atthe presidential level is not is not necessary

(22:06):
enough for them to say, hmmm, maybe I can register my anger at
this through another way. That's all. Okay, So you know, we've
gotten twenty plus minutes into the podcastand everybody has made some really valid points.
We've yet to actually talked about whatwe saw on Thursday night and how

(22:29):
we felt about it. So I'mgoing to kind of back up per second
and strut that conversation. I've beenprocessing this personally for myself for the last
seventy two hours, as you guyswell know I. As you know,
I've had a very strong reaction.You guys know me. You know what
a dedicated, passionate pro Joe Bidensupporter I have been not just in twenty

(22:59):
twenty four, but in twenty nineteen, twenty twenty and author during his presidency
and frankly when he was vice president. Politically, I love the man,
okay, and he I thought representedmy values. I saw something Thursday that

(23:19):
I feared might happen and I hopedwould never happen. Did anybody ever see
a movie called The Seduction of JoeTynan? Have you heard of it?
It's an Alan alde film where heplays a senator and it's about the corruption

(23:41):
of an otherwise good man by politics. Okay, So Alan Alda is Joe
Teynan. He's this young, dynamicsenator, sort of like a Beto o'rour
character, Okay. And he getsinto the Senate and he finds out that
there's a lot of corruption there.And the Fulkrium is a confirmation hearing for

(24:03):
a Supreme Court justice, and thereis an older senator played by Melvin Douglas
who is trying to ram this verybad man through the confirmation process to become
a Supreme Court justice. What's hisname, Brett Kavanaugh? It could have
been in the big climax scene they'reat this hearing. They both have competing

(24:29):
agendas, okay, and the questionis who is going to win, will
this guy get confirmed or not?And it's Melvin Douglas's turn, the senator's
turn to question the nominee, andhe starts asking his questions in French,
and he's unaware of it, andpeople are watching the way we all watched

(24:53):
the debate on Thursday night. They'resitting there silent, realizing that this man
is senile, that this man isin the process of destroying his own career.
And it's one of the most powerfulmoments. I mean, I remember

(25:17):
twenty five thirty years later, that'swhat a powerful moment it was. And
I have been saying for weeks tomy friends that I speak to outside of
this I fear for that Melvin Douglasmoment in this campaign. And we saw
it on Thursday. And we cantalk all day long about colds and cold

(25:41):
medication and sunsetting and the fact that, if you read the transcript, Biden
made some cogent points between all thestuttering. We can talk about all of
that, but the reality is thatJoe Biden is showing extreme signs of aging

(26:03):
in a very painful way for everyone, because it affects everyone in this country,
whether it's us individually or our familymembers or people that we know.
So I've been trying to process thisand I'm going to make an analogy of
metaphor. I know you guys aregoing to kind of joke about it,
and that's fine. I think thecountry is going through something deeply personal.

(26:27):
Not the Republicans. They have theirown agenda and they just see this as,
you know, validation for everything they'vebeen saying for four years. But
for Democrats who love and respect JoeBiden, I think it's sort of like
I feel like a spouse who's beenlied to and deceived. I love this

(26:51):
man. I know that sounds ridiculous, but I really respect him as a
politician. And he lied to me, campaign lied to me, and the
people that knew about this lied tous. Maybe it was a live omission,
but it was a lie nonetheless.And we now know, by the

(27:11):
way, and we can get intothis in more detail, that his staff
was absolutely aware of this problem andthey've been covering it up for years.
Okay, it came out on Axios. Axios has done some great reporting the
last three days. Folks. Youshould be reading Axios. It came out
on Axios that his staff is nowgrudgingly admitting, Yeah, he's pretty good

(27:36):
between the hours of ten am andfour pm. He's really focused and energetic
and engaged. Between ten am andfour pm. Well, that's twenty five
percent of the day. And presidentsdon't only work twenty five percent of the
day. And yes, somehow hewas able to pull off a masterful performance
at the State of the Union atnine pm Eastern time, but he can't

(27:57):
do it consistently. And he diddo it Thursday night, And now people
are talking about sunsetting, people aretalking about, you know, a cold,
which is which is a ridiculous,ridiculous excuse. Colds don't make you
turn into a blathering imbecile, andthat's what he was that day. So

(28:19):
I want to finish this analogy.I think the Dems. The Democrats feel
like we now have to decide whetherto stay with this person that we love
that deceived us and hurt us,or whether we want to move on.
And some of us are acting likeprotective children who are angry with the parents

(28:40):
for putting them in this position.And some of us are defensively rallying around
one side or the other. ButI think we have to have an honest
debate about where we are with JoeBiden as a person, not just as
opposed to Donald Trump. There's notan hour in a day in the year
that Joe Biden is in a betterchoice for the presidency than Donald Trump that

(29:03):
we all acknowledge. But there's aconversation to be had about where we've been
put and the jeopardy that this countryhas been put into by the people who
convinced this man, or allowed thisman to convince them to run and put
us in this position. And nowI will relinquish the mic. John McCain

(29:27):
had his Melvin Douglas moment in ahearing where we all wondered if he was
actively having a stroke. Shortly afterthat, his family announced that he had
been diagnosed with glioblastoma, which isa terminal illness that causes rapid and complete
cognitive decline. Within a few weeksof that Melvin Douglas moment, John McCain

(29:52):
was in Walter reed and then hetransferred home to Beyond hospice care. He
was never expected to return to theUnited States. For the last six to
nine months of his term as asenator, he did not cast a single
vote in the Senate. He upand abandoned the people of Arizona to go
home and leave them without a functioningrepresentative in the Senate. It was the

(30:18):
least responsible act I have ever seenfrom anyone who called themselves an American hero.
I have been angry about it eversince. I was angry about it
when Ted Kennedy did a very similarthing. I am angry that strom Thurman
zoomed around the Senate completely non compass, grabbing the asses of female staff,
and everybody just covered up for him. The time to have these conversations about

(30:44):
how old is too old, howincompetent is too incompetent, was decades ago.
We have been letting every white manslide through their sunset years, clinging
to power. Mitch McConnell freezing infront of microphones multiple times, and nobody
is screaming, Oh, get himout of there, get the hook.
Where's Chuck Barris with his gong toget him off this stage? We let

(31:08):
old men lead this country. Whydoes Joe Biden have to be the first
to set the good example? That'smy question, DJ onto you, And
like every good debate participant, I'mnot going to answer that question because my
listeners, I just pick coffee outmy nose. That's what that stuff is

(31:34):
on this This is why we areseeing columnists and communications veterans say largely what
Kevin is saying, versus analysts andcampaign managers taking an entirely different view.

(32:01):
One. We all know that JoeBiden has a stutter, and we know
that Donald Trump's plan called Gish gallopingis designed to trip someone up with the
stutter. Yes, the first tenminutes were bad. I'm not going to
say they were good. But tenminutes later, maybe after your kids checked

(32:21):
out, Kevin, and I don'tblame them for checking out some the point.
Ten minutes later, after Trump wenton one of his rants, Joe
Biden looked right at him and said, everything you said was a lie,
and then went into detail to talkabout how they were lies. They went
after each other over the whole losersand suckers comment, and Trump did his
nonsense about and it had happened allthese people said it in him blah blah

(32:44):
blah blah blah, and Biden stoodhis ground and said he has a four
star general, said you said it, you said it. Biden actually had
an up and down night. Hehad some good time, He had some
good moments, he had some badmoments. The bad moments are all we
remember because they reinforce what Republicans havesaid about him and what everybody else is
worried about him. But I alsoremember Joe Biden from the seventy from the

(33:07):
set from the eighties and the nineties, which most people didn't do because they're
not the political junkie I am.So they didn't have really any interest in
ideas. Okay, maybe you do, so you remember the man was a
gaff machine. You ask him aquestion, you'll get something that's funny,
that made no sense whatsoever. Ialso remember Ronald Reagan boasting about burning the

(33:31):
midday oil. You know, weremember that one. I forgot that line.
Yeah, yeah, yeah again.I said, yeah, I'm really
burning the midday oil. And weall know. The reason the American people
mainly gave him a pass und RanContra was that they probably believed he was

(33:52):
too old to remember anything that whatthat was going on. So Joe Biden
grew on me. I was neverthe fan of him that you were,
Kevin. It really took until reallyuntil twenty sixteen. When I thought,
okay, he'd actually be better runningand Stan Trump than Hillary Clinton would be
that I thought, okay, maybethis guy actually had some political talent.
Before then, I just thought hegot lucky because he lived in an incredibly

(34:14):
small state. I did, reallyI did. But in twenty twenty,
in twenty twenty, he was actuallymore disciplined than he was in the past,
and it confused people into thinking hewas older and he was onsetting and
slowing down. He was just moredisciplined. For the first ten fifty minutes
of that debate, he was notmore disciplined. He was, unfortunately his

(34:34):
old self again, which nobody hadseen in thirty to forty years, and
suddenly that dovetailed with everything else.Yes, Joe Biden is eighty two years
old. That is true. Actuallywe eighty one, but there we go.
Even but there were no fact checkershere, right exactly, so that's

(34:55):
also not true, and I'll checkfacts. But the question, the questions
we have to ask ourselves are notthe questions that screenwriters ask, sorry Kevin,
They're not the questions that treat thepresident as some father figure, because
he's not. The questions you haveto ask yourself here and this is what

(35:16):
analysts are asking, this is whatcampaign managers are asking, and they're all
coming to the same same answer.Is there really anybody else who can do
the things that Joe Biden can doin an election? Is there any other
Democrat who does as well with whitevoters as he does? Is there any

(35:37):
other Democrat who does as well withvoters over sixty five as he does?
Is there any other Democrat who canuse the positives of the Biden administration like
he can and like no one elsecan. Because we saw it from John
McCain and O eight, we sawit from Hillary Clinton in sixteen, we
saw it from Al Gore in twothousand. Anybody who tries to say,

(35:58):
oh, I'm I'm not the president, catches all the president's negatives and none
of their positives. Can anybody besidesJoe Biden hold the Biden coalition together?
And what they are finding, andI agree with them, is that the

(36:19):
answer is no. None of themexcept Vice President Harris are even going to
get nominated. That is just animpossibility. Greg. I'm going to give
you a chance to talk because you'vebeen sitting here patiently and I can't tell
if you're having deep thoughts or rethinkingyour participation in this podcast. No,

(36:40):
no, no, that's okay.I was going to add on yours your
thoughts. But do we really wantBiden to become the next al Franken where
he does become the one who doesthe right thing, like maybe I should
step down and then two years latergo, maybe that wasn't the right thing
for him to do. So Iwant Kevin to think about that because I

(37:02):
know he has deep regrets about alfrank Yes, I do, Yes,
I know you do. And wetalked about al Franken stepping down and then
regretting it, like almost immediately.I'd now like al Franken to be the
nominee, but I know you would. I would like John Stewart to be
the nominee, but I don't knowif that's ever gone. I would like
Elizabeth Warren to be the nominee,but you know what, the staggered primary

(37:22):
system men. I never once gotthat opportunity in twenty twenty. I'm still
mad about twenty twenty. I wouldlike Katie Porter to be but and I
don't have enough hands to face palmall of those suggestions. Well, let's
actually so this is our moment,there is discussion again among the pundit class.
To the best of our knowledge,the political class. If they are

(37:43):
having discussions, they're having them behindclosed doors without anyone leaking about should we
be considering a replacement at the topof the ticket and there are mechanisms apparently
to do so. My head explodeswhen I think about them. Going to
start with you, Kevin, becauseI know you're in agreement. Yeah,
so I've spent a lot of timeagain the last seventy two hours, and

(38:07):
I'm going to talk now for seventytwo hours about this issue. So you're
the editor, man. I understandwhat everything DJ said, I understand what
Greg said. These are all goodpoints. I just have a different opinion.
My feeling is I think that DJand I have been locked in a

(38:30):
debate for a few weeks now.If you listen to the podcast, you've
heard us about. I think thatthe election is locked in Joe Biden losing,
and DJ believes that things are goingto come around. And we're not
going to get into the details ofthat, but that's just a summary of
how we see the election. Ithink we're now as a party getting to

(38:52):
the place of extreme denialism, becausethe reason for the debate, the entire
reason that Joe Biden did something asunprecedented as suggesting a presidential debate in June
before two people have even been nominated, was that his campaign knew he had

(39:13):
to reset the campaign they were behind. They needed a big moment. They
needed to expose Donald Trump to theelectorate in a way that would make him
disqualified to independent and non affiliated votersand voters who maybe were you know,

(39:35):
didn't want to vote for Trump butdidn't know whether there was an alternative.
Joe Biden utterly failed and that andit's not just me saying it. I've
got a list here. If youguys make me, I will read it.
It's twenty plus names long of peoplethat are highly respected who think that

(39:55):
we have come to the point wherewe have to consider a different and candidate.
I'm going to read a few ofthe names. Steve Schmidt, James
Carville, Frank Luntz, Andrew Yang, John Kasch, Bill Crystal, Joe
Waltsh, Mike Murphy, Nicholas ChristophMaureen Dowd, General Barry McCaffrey. You
guys may or may not know him. Thomas Friedman, Frank Bruney, Charlie

(40:16):
Sykes, Joe Scarborough, Lawrence Tribe, Nate Silver. And then you have
the editorial boards of the New YorkTimes and the Atlanta Journal Constitution, which
I still have respect for editorial writers. These are not bedwetters and whiners.
These are serious people who are makinga serious evaluation about the state of the

(40:40):
race. It's not about whether welike Joe Biden. It's not even about
whether Joe Biden has the capacity todo the job for another four years.
It's about whether he is capable ofmaking the case to the country not to
reelect Donald Trump, because that reelecting Donald Trump is the nuclear option that

(41:07):
is World War three of American politics. All right, Kevin, I ask
you this then as a follow up, Yeah, yeah, go ahead.
Who is capable of making that case? Okay? So the mechanism is this.
First of all, we all agreeJoe Biden can't be forced out.
It's got to be his decision.People may talk to him, people may

(41:29):
explain to him the reality of thepolls and the reality of where things are
going post debate, but it ultimatelyhas to be Joe and Jill Biden's decision
to step aside and make way forsomeone else. Now again, we're in
uncharted territory. There's no denying that. So what happens. Let's say that

(41:51):
he can be convinced that it's inthe best interest of the country, in
the best interest of the bidens forhim to step aside. The convention now
becomes an open convention. Now thedelegates will then be released and they can
vote their conscience. So what happens. There's a convention, This one will

(42:12):
actually be held on zoom because ofOhio, Thank you Greg. There's a
convention and people's names are placed innomination. Who might those names be?
Well, we listed a few ofthem. I'd like to add Pete boudha
Jeedge to the possible list. Remember, now, Joe Biden has stepped aside

(42:32):
in this hypothesis. In this hypothetical, and he has given his blessing to
people like Kamala Harris, Gavin Newsom, Gretchen Whitmer, and Pete Budajudge,
people who have been rabid supporters ofhis. He's given his blessing for them
to throw their names into nomination.Who are those people? I just named

(42:57):
four of them, There's another threeor four that are not at the top
of my list, but a lotof Democrats seem to think have very bright
futures. Go ahead, I wasgonna say, let's take Gavin Newsom right
off that list, because here's whatwould happen. The moment Gavin Newsom was
the name would be thrown out,Kimberly Gilfoyle would put on her sparkliest dress
and book an appearance on the Viewand tearfully insinuate that he abused her or

(43:22):
something like that. Next thing,you know, we've got Joy Behar picking
up that torch and running all theway to Mount Olympus with it. And
then Kimberly would open up her goddamnphone and find whatever naked pictures she has
saved of Gavin Newsom, and shewould leak them all over the goddamn Internet.
You cannot put Gavin Newsom into arace with the Trump machine because they

(43:45):
have the ultimate insider on him,so erase him from the list can't be
done. Okay, so you maybe correct. First of all, I
didn't know that side of Gavin.That side may not exist. The point
is he was with Kimberly Gilfoyle andKimberly Gilfoyle is evil and she would do
anything she can to destroy him.Well, let's first of all, let's
acknowledge that in this scenario, whichis at this point purely hypothetical, that

(44:10):
anyone who got the nomination would beattacked viciously by the Republicans, as Joe
Biden is attacked on an hourly basisviciously by Republicans. So if it's Pete
Bootage Edge, there's going to beyou know, we don't even want to
think of what you know, they'llsay about him. If it's Kamala Harris,

(44:30):
we know that she's going to beattacked. If it's Gretchen Whitmer,
as somebody pointed out, she's gother own baggage. Anybody who gets nominated,
there is no there is no cleanperson in today's American politics. And
what would happen is then from Augustonward, whereas normally all of that oppo

(44:51):
comes out during primary season or inthe earliest stages of the general and we
can get over that hump and moveinto substance, we would be doing with
that from August to November. Thatis a absolutely terrible scenario that we would
be you know, vetting a candidateat in the eleventh hour. I don't
I. I disagree. Well,we've we've got a candidate and he was

(45:14):
vetted Thursday night and he failed fuckingmiserably. We've disagreed on the table.
I disagree, but DJ, butthe rest of America disagrees with you.
I don't think so okay, Idon't know. I I I honestly do
not hold that because, for one, at least one in three Americans,
by polls that you've acknowledged, havesaid Joe Biden won the debate. And

(45:37):
if every Republican says he lost,and a half the Democrats are bed wedding
and insisting that he lost, DJ, DJ, those polls are at DIN
yet and and you dropped, youdropped, you drop one on Thursday,
you dropped one. And that wasthat. And that said that said two
to one that that Trump won thedebate, right, thirty three percent said

(45:58):
Joe Biden won the debate. Yeah, that's what two to one means.
So yeah, because thirty three percentof the country is you know, diehard
Democrats. Okay, so no,the diehard Democrats are acting like you are.
They're all panicking. But there arealso Democrats who acknowledge that Joe Biden
lost the debate, but that doesn'tmean he lost the election. Debates and
elections are different. So I believe, without you know, without anything data

(46:29):
driven to prove it, I believethat we're going to find by Thursday and
Friday that Biden is down more points, both nationally and in swing states.
And I believe in two weeks it'sgoing to be even worse. So I'm
trying to anticipate this problem. Andby the way, I read a lot
of articles yesterday, and a lotof people in Congress, a lot of

(46:52):
senators, a lot of heavyweight politicians, have the same fear that I have
that he is going to tank justhis own race, but the entire twenty
twenty four election cycle for Democrats becausehis coattails will be so poisonous. So
what happens We open it up,People make their speeches, people play politics,

(47:16):
will some high elbows get thrown,Probably in a ballot or two or
three. Someone is going to emerge. Maybe it is Kamala Harris, maybe
it's Pete Bootage Edge or Gaven Newsomor Gretchen Whitmer, And they then invite
Kamala Harris onto their ticket because hey, she's no worse off than she is

(47:42):
now. She'd be vice president ofthe United States. Okay, and we
could all sit here and go,oh, she never accept that. We
don't know that because the Titanic issinking now and people are trying to figure
out how to save lives, okay, And I think if that were to
come to pass, there would besome one week or two week campaign in

(48:08):
the media. There'd be some verypassionate speeches made, there would be ballots.
Someone would would be leading after thefirst ballot and someone would drop out.
Thence that someone would be leading evenmore in the second ballot, and
by the third ballot someone would havea majority of the delegates and they would

(48:30):
be the nominee. Then what happens? Okay, I've heard this set on
the news a one hundred times inthe last twenty four hours. They have
no campaign money, They're starting fromscratch. How will they do it?
How does that work? Here's theanswer. First of all, most of
the campaign money that people are talkingabout is DNC money, and that money

(48:52):
goes to whoever is the nominee.It's not Joe Biden's, so they wouldn't
be at the incredible cash disadvantage ofzero dollars in the bank. Secondly,
if one of those people gets nominated, the excitement in the Democratic Party would
be palpable and unprecedented. People inthis country are begging for a younger,

(49:15):
more vital candidate. If it's Kamala, if it's Pete, if it's Gavin,
if it's someone else under sixty five, the enthusiasm in the Democratic Party
is going to be as if BobbyKennedy got the nomination, and by the
way, he had some stuff inhis you know, in his closet.
He had some skeletons in his closettoo, and that didn't seem to bother

(49:37):
anybody. So let's say I'm goingto go with maybe the hardest cell.
Let's say Kamala Harris gets the votesand gets the nomination, and she invites
Boothage Edge or Cory Booker, youname the person. It's going to be
a high profile Democrat, and theyform a unity t they'd be starting fresh.

(50:02):
It wouldn't be all about Palestinians gettingkilled in Gaza and Biden being duplicitous
in it. It wouldn't be aboutinflation, it wouldn't be about age.
It would be about what it shouldbe about, which is this person versus
Donald Trump. And that's the electionDemocrats need to frame. And this election,

(50:28):
I'm telling you guys, it wasnot just one night. It was
not just a bad performance. I'vealready seen the gop ads. They're on
YouTube to find them. It's goingto be devastating. Yes, fifty one
million people saw it, but Iguarantee you three hundred million people are going
to see the bad parts over andover and over and over again. It's

(50:52):
not getting better for Joe Biden.It's not going to be a news cycle.
Oh, we're going to move onfrom Donald Trump is going to be
sentenced and he's going to say crazystuff about sharks and people are gonna and
Joe's going to have good campaign stopslike he did in North Carolina. Look,
I could be wrong. All wehave in this world is our knowledge

(51:15):
and our opinions, and I'm juststating mine. This election is lost if
we don't change candidates. And Idon't say that. That breaks my heart
to say it. DJ. Irespect you. I know a lot of
the points you make have a lotof validity behind them. But if you

(51:37):
think that voters are going to startwaking up and seeing Donald Trump and move
four or five points in each swingstate to Joe Biden between now and November.
After that performance, my friend,you're in denial. This election is
not a toss up anymore. Itis law. Look at the swing states.

(52:01):
Look at the polls. They're tellingyou it's it's bleeding red. I
went to Real Clear Politics yesterday.I went to five nine, five twenty
seven eight. I looked at thepolls five thirty eight, and I'm now
acting as old as Joe did theother night. I'm telling you, guys,

(52:24):
Joe Biden is not winning this election. I could be wrong. I
thought that Donald Trump was not winningin twenty sixteen, and I said it
with the same verve, and Iwas wrong. But every everything I know
about politics tells me that if wedon't make a change at the top of
the ticket, we're heading for nineteeneighty again. It's going to be a

(52:45):
red wave. We're not only goingto have a Trump presidency, We're going
to have both chambers of Congress aregoing to be Republican. It's going to
be a disaster, and we haveto do we have to take a role
of the dice to try and avoidthat. And by the way, I
think whoever they nominated would win handily. Go ahead. Okay, so three

(53:07):
things, and I'll try to keepthem brief. One. I can only
think of one election that actually hingedon a debate, and that was Nixon
Kennedy. Really, and even thatI don't truly believe. Two people have
short memories. I don't even rememberwhat I had for breakfast this morning,
and that was an hour ago.Okay, the new cycle is ever changing.

(53:30):
We will be up to our eyeballsin Trump trial stuff. We will
have new footage which the twenty fournews cycle will be constantly showing. And
you're right, this is terrible,terrible stuff. But this will not be
shown as often. In a month. We will have new footage and we

(53:51):
will have new things, and peoplewill forget because why people can't remember anything.
I can't remember sports teams. Ohwait, that wasn't me, that
was you. You know why,because I forgot about it. People don't
remember these things, especially in anelection. Wait till September, wait till
October. Things will happen. Okay, so this is not the nail in

(54:15):
the coffin that you think. AndThird, you mentioned John kay Sick earlier
today, just passingly. John Kasickis an asshole. I have to say
that every time you mentioned him,John Casey, I said it myself,
Yes, I and and that's thething. But you know why you didn't
because you forgot forget I'd forgotten JohnKaysick existed. It was the most blissful

(54:37):
six months of my life without thinkingof that asshole. So yeah, okay,
in and out, Rebecca, doyou have any do you have anything
you want to chime in response withKevin before I before I do my own
my cog, before you take yourseventy two hours, Yes, I take
my seventy two hours. I'm noteven actually actively engaging in the discussions about

(55:01):
should we change the ticket because rightnow those are hypotheticals. That is something
that is happening on the Sunday morningTV shows, It is something that is
happening on the pages of axios.And if there comes a point where there
is a decisive and concerted effort tobe changing candidates, then I will engage
with this idea. But until youshow me a filing with the FEC.

(55:23):
Gavin Newsom for Committee to Elect GavinNewsom Committee to elect Kamala Harris. Whatever
you know, official mechanisms need tobe put in place before any of them
can assume a presidential candidacy. I'mnot engaging with it. It is June
thirtieth, as you corrected me,because I forget things like dates, and

(55:43):
the presumptive candidates are Joe Biden andDonald Trump. I have two shifts scheduled
to be text banking for Democratic candidates, including Joe Biden. The race today
is what the race was on Wednesday. The polling might be different, public
opinion might be fluid at the moment, but the fact of the matter is
I, as a Democrat, needto continue doing the things I do to

(56:07):
elect Democrats, and I highly encourageeveryone else listening to do the same.
There's a great site called mobilize.You can just look it up. You
can find shifts to phone bank,to knock on doors, to text bank,
to do whatever it is that youfeel you can do to contribute to
this. Elections aren't won and loston podcasts as four white people sit around

(56:28):
talking. Elections are won and loston the ground. So every one of
us need to get out there andget on the ground, make things happen.
And if what you want to agitatefor, Kevin is a change at
the top of the ticket, thenstart calling the DNC me. I'm going
to be working with the d TRIPand texting into California. Maybe I'll get
one of your kids. I thinkyou just shocked a lot of people when

(56:49):
you told them that we're four whitepeople. I think a lot of our
listen to that. So I'm alsoreminded of an old sport of old sports
comment. You know, games aren'tplayed on paper, they're played in said
television sets. But this gets usback to the Gene Wilder discussion, the
Willy Wonka thing with the kid inthe DJ. Hey, you know,

(57:14):
but I think you know, I'mactually going to call all the way to
the beginning, and I'm going toactually disagree with the first thing that Kevin
said. You remember that, Ithink in terms, yes, I don't
remember, because you're right. Thepurpose of this debate was to expose Donald
Trump for who he was and toshow voters that they really did not want
to vote for this guy again.And I think in doing that, Joe

(57:37):
Biden succeeded. Unfortunately, he didsome other things that have clouded that that
have gotten in the way of peoplenoticing that, but not everybody. I
mean, one of the one,one of the biggest phrases online that people
are talking about is not a JoeBiden gaff. It was Donald Trump talking
about what black jobs are and whatHispanic jobs are. To the four of

(58:00):
us, black jobs are the sameas binders full of women. You know,
when you go to your back,you come out if you'r binder full
of women to go to your blackjob, it makes total sense and actually
worse. But yeah, and youknow, those of us who are and
those of us who are for whitepeople are not going to notice that as
much as osay. Black voters whoare a constituency that Biden has had problems

(58:22):
with in terms of getting out thevote, and they're going to hear that
Donald Trump thinks that they should allbe in menial jobs. That's going to
be a problem for Trump. DonaldTrump did a lot of things to hurt
himself on Thursday. We're just nottalking about that because of Joe Biden stuttering.
Frankly and Kevin, I know youhave been trying to convince a lot

(58:47):
of You've been trying to convince yourkids and a lot of your kids friends
to vote for Joe Biden. AndI know you probably thought tonight would be
the night where you could say,see, look, there we go.
So this is why you should votefor Joe Biden. It didn't happen.
It's flummexed you. I get thatit's flomixed a lot of people. That's

(59:07):
not just because of you. ButI would also note that there are other
people on the other side of thisargument. Stuart Stevens, who actually managed
a winning Republican campaign, which SteveSchmidt did not do. Rick Wilson,
who's managed numerous campaigns all over theplace, including some long after James Carville
retired. David Ploof, the Obamacampaign advisor who did not become exposed as

(59:34):
irrelevant in twenty fifteen when Jim Asinakicked his ass in the British parliamentary election.
Yes, that's my shot at DavidAcelrod. You should never listen to
him again. David Pluff, DaveNo, No, Dave. David Pluff
is good. David Acerod is bad. David Axlrod tried. Oh, David
Axrod tried to get ed Milliban electedPrime minister. There is no reason anybody
shouldst we need fewer David's and fewerJohn's in politics. That's that, no

(01:00:01):
argument there, but the point you'remaking a great point going there. The
people who have been involved in usBolton campaign will tell you, Okay,
one debate does not settle this.For one thing, There's actually another debate
coming in the fall, and neitherone of two things will happen. Either.

(01:00:22):
Joe Biden will certainly perform much betterbecause they will say, okay,
look, just respond to his lies, don't worry about saying anything. Or
Trump will back out and it willbe a two hour Joe Biden town hall
and never will go oh huh,i's going to tune into that DJ.
It doesn't matter who turns into it. What's gonna happen as the ones who
tune into it say, you know, Joe Biden actually held his own answering

(01:00:45):
a bunch of questions for two hours, but he wasn't. Yes, it
will, it'll. It will getseen by at least as many people as
who saw this one debate, iffor no other reason because this was the
lowest rated debate there. Sorry,I gotta laugh at that. I gotta
laugh. That's okay, and that'sokay. But I'm pretty sure fifty million.

(01:01:06):
If you think Joe Biden's going toget fifty one million people for a
town hall on CNN, if it'sif it's I actually started as a debate
that Donald Trump backed out of,yes, I think he can get it.
He can get somewhere in the tensof millions. And that's enough,
because then that they're going to dowith the fifty one million. You saw
the de betelling every day, they'regonna go like, hey, you know,
Joe Biden actually answer some questions.He said it smart. He wasn't

(01:01:28):
the guy who was in June.I don't know what that'll happen then,
but he seems a lot better now. And oh, by the way,
it's after four o'clock in the townhall. So I'm going to positive that
that Thursday night was the last presidentialdebate we'll ever see in the future of
America. It is no longer anefficacious tool in the twenty four hour news
cycle. There is no need toput the two candidates on stage in front
of the American people as a directcomparison. There is the potential for too

(01:01:53):
much damage to campaigns in doing them. You know, Joe Biden jettisoning the
the Commission on Presidential Debates was thefirst step. And I don't think we
will ever see presidential candidate's debate again. I'm not sure we saree. I'm
not sure. I'm not sure weshould see debates in that. I don't
think they'll go I don't I don'tthink he'll go away. I think they

(01:02:15):
should go away. I much preferthe what the British do is where they
where they basically put them. Theyget They put them under under a press
microscope for thirty minutes, one rightafter the other, and you can actually
have a much better comparison in termsof how they respond to things other span
of follow ups. That's a muchbetter way of doing things. I don't
think it's going to happen. Butmy point is still this, and actually

(01:02:35):
that's not my point getting on tothe other things Kevin said, because because
Kevin said a lot, Yes Idid, he he treats. What would
happen if Joe Biden stepped down andreleased his delegates as an as a largely
orderly process right out of a Hollywoodmovie. The reality is going to be

(01:02:57):
far messier and far nastier. Forone thing, Joe Biden may not release
his delegates. Joe Biden may sayI am stepping down. I am.
I am endorsing Kamala Harris as mysuccessor, and I'm directing my delegates to
endorse her because she is the onewho would take over if I cannot serve,
and I've decided I cannot serve pastJanuary. Hell, there are some

(01:03:20):
people who are actually talking about JoeBiden flat out resigning and having Kamala Harris
run as the incumbent. Okay,that would be better. That would be
better if Yeah, I agree,that would be better, but go ahead,
so or John Stewart or John.I mean, if we are replacing
candidates, the best possible outcome wouldbe for Joe Biden to have an actual

(01:03:42):
medical diagnosis that prevents him from continuingon in the job as president. He
resigns immediately, Kamala Harris assumes thepresidency and assumes the candidacy. That is
the only scenario in which we couldsmoothly transition to a new candidate. Anything
else would be Dems in disarray,followed by Republicans lobbing fire. I just
I just want to be on recordssaying, I agree with what Rebecca just

(01:04:04):
said. That would be a verythat would be a clean way to accomplish
what we're talking But it's not happening. So now without if of course without
wish again will but but the thingis that would require a medical diagnosis that
he is unfit to serve, andwe don't have one which should know that

(01:04:24):
medical diagnosis. Well, right,But the if it were an open convention
the way you just described it,the all all of those black women that
Rebecca talked about watching one of theirown, Joe Biden's designated air get stepped

(01:04:44):
over by a bunch of She's goingto get stepped over because of all the
white people in the room. Well, hold on, I'm Barack Obama got
that nomination twice, Kevin. I'mexploring every singer are here. I'll get
to the Harror scenario. I'm exploringthe non Harris scenarios. One that would

(01:05:05):
be devastating for black turnout, andespecially for three for black female turnout.
It would also remind everyone that genericdemocrat is not an actual person. These
would be actual people who would havetheir own who would have their own actual
issues, and all the Republicans wouldhave to say, is why should we

(01:05:27):
believe them when they tell us thisis the best person to run for president,
when they told us that Joe Bidenwas the best person for three And
as they say, but they're bullshit, It's going to be their bullshit,
regardless of who's you know, itcould be John Stewart. Their bullshit is
going to be their regardless of Butif but if we if we switch horses,
their bullshit smells better. And that'sthe problem. They're bullshit smells better

(01:05:49):
now because they've been saying that JoeBiden can't string two sentences together. I
thought that they were out of theirminds, and now I know they're right.
And I'm telling you you're wrong thatjust because Joe Biden has a hold.
No, no, I'm sorry,Rebecca. It wasn't Joe Biden wasn't
stutter that what that it was.It was a stutter and it was deliberate.
And Trump's campaign and Trump's method wasdeliberately designed to stutter. It is

(01:06:14):
a technique called giscalo, and itis and it is not. Yes,
we did see two different debates.I saw the one that actually happened.
You saw the one that was inthe right. Hang on, hang on,
I'm calling I'm I'm calling time out. So what we are the discussion?
We are having two fundamentally different discussionsright here. DJ is talking about
a political debate. He watched apolitical debate between two politicians who are running

(01:06:35):
against each other for office. Kevinsaw that debate and didn't view it as
a debate, but view it asa evidence of a particular medical diagnosis.
So Kevin is no, I sawit as evidence of a candidate who has
no change. But you, Buthowever, you are, you are.

(01:06:56):
What you are getting from that debateis that there is a systemic problem with
the candidate that extends outside of thebalance of the debate. And you are
arguing for that ephemera, whereas DJis arguing for what happened in a ninety
minute segment of time. If ifthe ephemera is more important to the American

(01:07:21):
public, than you are probably closerto correct than DJ is. If the
effemea, and that is your contention. If the ephemera is not more important
to the American people, then DJis probably more correct than you are.
So and this is not something thatwe can resolve in this format. It's
simply can't be resolved. And sothe two of you continuing to argue,

(01:07:44):
you know, not even apples andoranges, but like red delicious and gold
and delicious. Is I think youjust nailed this so well, Rebecca,
that's why you pay me the bigenough. Yes, it is, at
least it is. But but again, I'm not the only person who is
carrying the mantle of the EFEVA andI'm not saying and I'm not saying you

(01:08:06):
are. I'm not saying you are. And one of the reasons why I
am so I am so energetic inmy response because I'm not just talking to
you, Kevin, I'm talking toall of the folks in punditry who also
think the same thing. But wealso have history from this about what happens
if you if you change a ticket. And that was in nineteen seventy two

(01:08:30):
when the vice presidential nominee was swappedout at the last minute because of concern
because of concern over over over amental health issue, and it did absolutely
nothing for them a covered campaign.It still went to you. I don't
I don't know if he was goingto lose that badly, don't I don't.

(01:08:51):
Would he have lost to Richard Nixonin nineteen seventy two, Yes,
the fundamentals were not in their favor. Would he have lost forty nine states?
In cline, Yes, they wouldnot have lost forty nine states.
He would not have lost Maryland.He would not have well, he might
have lost his own home state.He would have watched forty six Well,
all right, well, arguing abouta campaign from fifty years ago, is

(01:09:15):
that's what and I do also fair, see we need to have a spinoff
podcast of like Kevin and DJ discusshistory. But okay, but we need
to now discuss moving forward. Weare still in the twenty twenty four campaign.
We still have two presumptive candidates,and you know, and and we
there is there are no FEC filingsof somebody else attempting to be the Democratic

(01:09:35):
candidate. So, you know,a suit moving forward with the status quo
that we have, not with anyhypothetical alterations to that status quo, because
they are just hypothetical. So youcan't make plans based on things that don't
exist, which is really sad becauseI so want to plan to own a
uniform one day. What where dowe go now, Greg, Matuzak,

(01:10:00):
I'm gonna call on you because you'rethe nicest. So so what we're gonna
see is each campaign is going tocontinue with their own strategies. You're going
to see Trump rally rally, rally, and the rallies are I mean,
it works for him, but itconnects with his base, but it doesn't
get more voters. But he's goingto continue with you know, his lies

(01:10:25):
and his stick and he's going he'sgot a new line of attack and he's
gonna you're going to see more ofthat. Like this guy he can't talk,
I can't understand him. And thenhe's gonna tell a story about a
shark. The Biden campaign, ifwhat I think will happen, and I'm
a pundit and what have you,will start putting out videos of Joe on

(01:10:45):
a bike or Joe CrossFit and Joedoing really like energetic events and and actually
you may actually see a rally ortwo with him, you know, out
there being like super Joe. Whatwhat the call him? After Joe Mentum?
You stubbed Joe Joe Mentum, youknow, And then they will call
for drug tests again. But youwill see these whole like, uh,

(01:11:10):
maybe maybe an interview with someone whowill be like, wow, I didn't
expect such, you know, likehe'll jump on a couch with Oprah saying
I love Jill, I love Jill. It will be this real high,
you know, activity Joe. Seenow, I think and I'm gonna pile
on Greg what you said. Ithink Joe Biden needs to go on Kimmel

(01:11:32):
or Fallin and you know, justmake fun of his performance. You know,
I think he should show the videoof him totally botching that first question
and let the audience have a biglaugh about it and have a friendly discussion
with Kimmel or Fallon about Man.If I could take back one thing in
my entire political history, it wouldbe that moment. I am sorry,

(01:11:55):
Democrats, I let you down.You know, I should have done that
better. But why did I takeall that cough therapy? I mean,
but not even making excuses, justacknowledging. Man, that was That was
a low point. Now but andnow I got to make up for it.
I'm sorry, this was, youknow, I fucked it up.
I think I think that's what heshould do. He should humanize it and

(01:12:16):
you know, put it out therein the most mainstream of mainstream DJ you
can go next. What do youthink you know? Where? Where do
we go from here? I thinkI think the Republicans will hold their convention
in July. The first three nightswill be very good for them. The
fourth night, Donald Trump will acceptthe nomination and everybody will go, oh
crap, that's right, he's alying lunatic. I think the Democrats will

(01:12:41):
hold their convention. I think wewill see yeah. I think I think
Biden will be humble about what happenedat the debate. Biden's very good at
being humble. He's one of He'sone of the most empathetic politicians of this
time. I think bye. Ithink we will come into September. I
think Biden will actually be ahead whenthe Democratic Convention is over, because it's

(01:13:04):
conventions where we usually see these bounces. We saw it in nineteen eighty eight.
We saw in two thousand and eightpeople forget John McCain was ahead of
Barack Obama for the first two weeksof September, the first two weeks after
his convention, and that was withand that was with what's her name?
See, I forget things too.Oh, And that's why we should never
listen to anything Steve Schmidt's as againand the rest of time, right,

(01:13:26):
And that was with Sarah Palin,Steven Smith's joyce as vice president. Yeah,
no, if he managed to theJohn McCain election, we never listened
to Steve Schmidt, that was right. So you know, I that's what
I that's what I see coming.By the end of August into September,
Joe Biden will be ahead by afew points. He'll be ahead in He'll
be ahead or even in some ofthese swing states. And then it's going

(01:13:47):
to be for the next it's goingto be the next It's going to be
a three month slog where we haveto remind everybody of who Donald Trump is.
That he really is the lying lunarthat we saw last week. He's
a lying lunatic we saw at theRepublican Convention. And the only way to
stop him, whatever you think ofhim, is to vote for Joe Biden.

(01:14:10):
And that is why I still believeat the end of the day,
it'll be it'll be lower turnout thantwenty twenty. That much is certain.
More people will not vote, fewerpeople will vote. But I do still
believe Joe Biden will be reelected andKevin, where do you think we go
from here? Well, I thinkfirst of all, the Democrats have to
spend all of their time focusing theelection now on the negatives of Donald Trump.

(01:14:34):
It's not about how much Joe Bidenaccomplished, It's not about how much
we like him or whatever. It'sgot to be all about you cannot put
you cannot entrust the presidency and thecountry to Donald Trump again. That is
an existential threat to everything that youhold dear. Of course, you know

(01:14:57):
forty five percent of the voters willreject that argument, but we have to
make that argument and bring back someof the people that I think we're losing.
Now, I just want to makea statement about myself. You know,
I made a promise to some ofmy friends on Facebook yesterday, and
I'm going to make it here today. I am not going to do to
Joe Biden what I think people didto Hillary Clinton in twenty sixteen. I

(01:15:17):
made my case, I stated inmy opinions after this podcast, I am
not going to poison the well anymore. If Joe Biden is the nominee,
and I still think yes, there'sprobably as an eighty percent chance he will
be. I will be as passionatelybehind him as I was earlier this week.

(01:15:38):
I still think there's a twenty orthirty percent chance he will not be
the nominee. I think that wouldbe the better path. But I will
be for whoever the Democratic nominee iswith all my heart and soul. Would
you accept the nomination if they calledon Kevin, No, I would give
it to Joe Biden. I justwanted to clear that up in case there

(01:15:59):
was a conflict, be like,yeah, I'll shit it all over Joe.
If if they go to me,then then there's no saying what I
would ask him to be my runningmate and he could still be vice president,
right, Okay with that? Okay, Well, that's that's mighty big
of you. Thanks, And Ijust want to throw out that you guys
gave me what I think is apretty good idea. You know, we've

(01:16:20):
been using the music of the lategreat Alan Keny as our opening theme,
and we love him. But youguys, when Rebecca specifically you mentioned how
DJ and I love to revel inelections from fifty years ago, I think
maybe going forward, our opening shouldbe DJ and I sitting at a piano
singing those were the days together.Oh yeah, but Archie, which is

(01:16:43):
Edith. I'll play either part.I don't want DJ, it's your choice.
I would gladly play meathead too.Let's let's try it right now.
Are you ready? DJ boyd awayGlenn Miller plays, I don't remember the
songs that made the hit parade guyslike us DJ, we had it made

(01:17:10):
everybody. So those were the daysand you knew who you. I would
like to stay for the record thatI am not participating in this musical atrocity
that's happening here. Will I onlysing when we are doing selections from the
musical Hamilton. And by the way, the line that was coming up next

(01:17:32):
to the song is as relevant todayas it was fifty years ago. Boy
girls were girls and men was men. I saw a comedian recently who was
and I forget his name. Wecan post it somewhere else. But he
was talking about trying to find commonground between Democrats and Republicans, and he
said, Democrats love gender fluidity,Republicans love Lindsay Graham. Okay, mister,

(01:18:01):
we could use a man like JosephBiden again. Okay, I think
we have exhausted all available topics forthis morning. We have probably exhausted our
audience. I'm exhausted, and againI am going to drop the website.
Mobilize, please all of you.Even if you are like Kevin's kids and

(01:18:25):
don't want a campaign for Joe Biden, you can do things for down ticket
campaigns. You can get involved withan organization called Field Team six, which
focuses on voter registration in swing states. There are all kinds of opportunities out
there. Please everyone put in alittle bit of time. Politics is a
group effort. America is a groupeffort. Let's work together. Greg.

(01:18:56):
What music will you be playing whileyou await the results of the British elections
on Thursday? Uh? Well,I was thinking about Won't get Fooled Again
by the by One? Uh,that's a great one. And uh or
maybe tax Man by the Beatles alsogood? Also good? Yeah yeah?

(01:19:17):
Or God Saved the Queen by thesex Pistols by the sex Pistols, not
the actual song God Saved the Queen. M hmm.