Commentary Track: Avatar

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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the show. Welcome Friends Podcasts podcast show Jacky and Brian.

Speaker 2 (01:01):
They're talking about the group. I guess I'd like to
talk to you about a fresh start in a new world.
You're not in Kansas, anymore. You're on Pandora.

Speaker 1 (01:24):
The concept is to drive these remotely controlled bodies Coda avatars.

Speaker 2 (01:28):
You should not be here. I need to help Quorish
is no longe and there's no stopping.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
Hip going up against gunships.

Speaker 2 (01:37):
Well, I guess you better stop here, Avatar. This film
has not yet rated. Welcome to a movie film commentary track.
My name is Zaki Hassan. I'm here with Brian Hall.

Speaker 1 (01:49):
Hey, how's it going, Zachie?

Speaker 2 (01:50):
Brian? Have you ever woken up and wished you belong
to the Omatakaya?

Speaker 1 (01:58):
Uh? Yeah? You know what's funny though, those dreams, I
can't tell which is the dream and if my reality
is more the dream itself.

Speaker 2 (02:07):
You know you say it sounds to me like you
wish that you were Turuk Makto.

Speaker 1 (02:15):
Well, as I'm fumbling lines from the movie over here
that I'm trying to repeat, I actually thought about googling
things in NAVI for this opening to try to say
to you, And now I'm like, oh, he did it.

Speaker 2 (02:27):
Damn it.

Speaker 1 (02:27):
I could have like I could have kept.

Speaker 2 (02:29):
Up with him. You know, Awa is very disappointed in you.
That's all I know.

Speaker 3 (02:36):
What else is new?

Speaker 1 (02:41):
Yeah? No, no, you know what, I'm gonna save it
because we've got plenty of time ahead.

Speaker 3 (02:44):
I'm gonna keep this brief.

Speaker 2 (02:46):
We got some time to fill. We are watching Avatar,
the two thousand and nine film that made almost three
billion dollars since its release. So this is a this
is this, This is the most beloved not beloved film
of all time.

Speaker 1 (03:04):
It's a case study, right, Yeah, I I am.

Speaker 2 (03:09):
I'm endlessly fascinated by the More more than the film,
I'm fascinated by the discourse by all the people every
few years or like, nobody cares about Avatar because it
hasn't left any cultural footprint. And I would disagree with
that assertion, if only because it has left the cultural
footprint of people wondering where its cultural footprint is.

Speaker 1 (03:28):
That's pretty good.

Speaker 2 (03:30):
Yeah, you know we Yeah, we got to Avatar Fire
and Ash. That's that's due out in the weeks ahead.
As we're recording this, and and I thought, hey, you
know what what better time than to than right now
to to visit that magical, far off land of Pandora.

Speaker 1 (03:49):
I'm excited because this isn't a movie I've watched a
lot over the years, so this was kind of I
remembered a lot of it. Yeah, but you know, it
was still kind of fresh watching again this week. So
I'm excited to have this conversation with you.

Speaker 2 (04:04):
And certainly, I mean, you know, we we do try
to let movies ferment a little before we'd give them
the old commentary treatment. And and there's something to realize,
Oh my gosh, this movie is sixteen years old already.

Speaker 1 (04:16):
Yeah, right, wild.

Speaker 2 (04:19):
I mean, when when we started doing this show, it
was a mere three years old. And back in those days,
we spent a big chunk of the early and not
even like the first two thirds of this show's life
being like Avatar sequel, I'll believe that when it happens, And.

Speaker 1 (04:37):
Isn't that a funny artifact? And then now in the
past couple of years, we've gotten two sequels.

Speaker 2 (04:42):
Yeah, so you know, never never bet against James Cameron
is the takeaway. Yep. But we are watching we're watching
the theatrical version. By the way, we should say, oh right, yeah,
there's there's like an extended cut and then there's like
the super duper standed cut, and we're watching neither of those.

(05:03):
But but for the purposes of backs drop on this,
I watched the three hour version, did you.

Speaker 1 (05:11):
Oh, I considered it, but I didn't. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (05:14):
I was like, I watched it, and I was like, well,
I you know, I mean, if I figure, I'll be
able to notice the differences and you know, add some
context to the discussion that we're having. And then I
was like, have I seen this before? And I think
I have, but I don't remember because you know, they
re released the movie in theaters a few years ago. Anyway,
we'll talk about yeah, yeah, yeah, for this, if you
want to watch along with us, we're doing the theatrical cut,

(05:35):
the two hours and forty two minute version.

Speaker 1 (05:39):
Yeah, please create a halou with us, and let's go
for a ride on an eleu.

Speaker 2 (05:45):
You see, you got this, You get this. You sound
like one of the people. So we're gonna we're gonna
get started right right this moment, Brian. So we'll do
the usual thing. We'll go one, two, three, play again.
If you want to watch along with us, you can.
If not, uh, you know, we'll certainly try to keep
the conversation interesting enough to have you engaged for the

(06:06):
for the entire almost three hours. Uh. So let's do this. Ready,
I'm ready, and here we go one, two, three, play it.

Speaker 1 (06:17):
Right?

Speaker 2 (06:18):
So the version I'm watching says twentieth Century Studios, how
about you, Sam? Yeah, so that's a little swapperoo that
Disney did.

Speaker 3 (06:29):
Yeah right.

Speaker 2 (06:30):
Even though this this this film predates the Disney purchase
of twenty eeth century Fox by a cool decade.

Speaker 3 (06:38):
Wow, man, it's like, where do you even begin?

Speaker 1 (06:44):
Well, I will say I did remember things that I
didn't see in this version, so I must have seen
the extended version at some point, Like I remember in
the beginning seeing Jake kicked out of a bar.

Speaker 3 (07:00):
Yes, that's right, right, which.

Speaker 2 (07:02):
I kind of So that's that that I knew was
not in this cut. And yeah it I think it
was a really good idea to have that in it initially.
And it's odd that they made that cut because you're
looking at three minutes tops, you know, and it is
that you'd be adding to a two hours and forty

(07:23):
two minute movie, you know.

Speaker 1 (07:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (07:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (07:26):
And then it basically it gives you a little glimpse
of what life is like on Earth and how Jake
really doesn't have anything that's right.

Speaker 2 (07:35):
But he does have he has a sense of doing
the right thing.

Speaker 1 (07:41):
Yes, Oh that's right. That's right. Yeah, he's like doing
something kind of noble, like defending someone or something. Right.

Speaker 2 (07:46):
Yeah. So there's a guy who's who's beating up on
his girlfriend in a bar, and Jake, who is in
a wheelchair, intervenes and ends up getting tossed out, at
which point these these fellas come in and they they're like, hey,
you know your brother died and that whole thing. So
instead it's like inter cut into this sequence here, which
which I guess you know. First of all, I should

(08:07):
say I remember watching this in the theater and just
being blown away by how absolutely immersive the three D
was in this sequence.

Speaker 1 (08:14):
I isn't that amazing? I mean, yeah, you say, sixteen
years I remember this too as if I just saw it.
I remember seeing those water droplets yep, in three D.
It's a great little tease, isn't it. Where he's like, oh,
you like the little little water drop there, check this out,
And then he goes into that I don't know what
it is, like hibernation bay or something, and it's just

(08:35):
like whoa. It just goes so deep.

Speaker 3 (08:37):
And there's people floating around.

Speaker 2 (08:40):
I mean this Oh yeah, good, sorry, just real quick, yeah,
I mean, just to put a button on that prologue
sequence that got cut out. It wasn't very much, and
I just to echo the point you were making, I
think it showed us the state of just how shitty
life is on earth. Yeah, and I think it would
have provided at a necessary contrast, because we don't get

(09:01):
that at all in in the in in this version.
And you know, I don't think it would have been
that much of a burden in terms of the run time,
So kind of kind of a weird choice that honestly.

Speaker 1 (09:15):
Yeah, I mean I guess in a way, if I
didn't know it existed, I would still think that, oh,
this is a great exposition efficient at the beginning here,
and I get it. And it's sad that his brother
died and they you know, he can do this. It'll
give his life some purpose. I mean, I'll hear.

Speaker 2 (09:32):
Well, yes and no, because because the one of the
single loudest critiques of this film following its release was
that our main character, Jake Sully played by Sam Worthington,
is a bit of a cipher. Yes, right, I mean
he's sort of he you know, he he's a pastiche
of similar characters in similar movies, and we don't get

(09:57):
a clear sense of what drives him, and I I
think whatever little bits of character development you could sneak
in and the crevices would have been helpful.

Speaker 1 (10:06):
Well, I definitely agree with that, yes, with some character things,
but I also feel like I saw some of the
people that they considered for Jake, you know, including Jake, Jillenhall,
Matt Damon, I think even Channing Tatum James Cameron talked
about recently, and I was like, all three of those
people with the same role, the same script, they have

(10:27):
a little bit more persona, you know what I mean,
just even in their their voices, in their mannerisms that
I think would have rounded out Jake a little bit
more so he doesn't feel so cipher like. And I
feel bad saying that because I do like Sam Worthington.
I was talking about this with my brother. He's very

(10:48):
good in this, Like he feels like in real life
what this guy would be like. But this isn't real life,
you know what I mean. This is a movie, and
we need especially if he's going to become this blue
creature that looks like every other two hundred blue creatures
I'm looking at, he really needs to pop, you know
what I mean, Like, I mean, that is like a

(11:09):
I came away from this movie.

Speaker 3 (11:12):
Okay, let's go even back.

Speaker 1 (11:13):
It's interesting to me that this is a movie when
you just say Avatar, think of Avatar. Speaking for myself,
I think it inspires a reaction like maybe even like
a snicker, like you know what I mean, which is
too bad because as I was watching this, especially the
back half of this movie, I was like, you know,
this movie's really cool. Like it it's got a lot

(11:38):
we'll talk about a lot of it, but at the
end of the day, I think it really does what
James Cameron set out to do, and he dazzles when
it's time to dazzle, you know. And for me, speaking
for myself, he made me feel when he wanted me
to feel. But there's it's hard to take the whole
thing seriously because these people, I think I still can't

(11:58):
get over the fact that they do look like three
hundred blue walking talking cats, you know what I mean,
Versus like Dances with Wolves, which is a very similar story.
When I take that movie very seriously, yeah, you know,
and feel very moved by it, and in this one,
I feel like there is like a good, you know, straightforward, compelling,
enough story here, but you can't help but stifle a

(12:22):
little bit of a snicker as you observe portions of it.
And I feel like that is just always going to
be attached to the experience.

Speaker 2 (12:30):
I yeah, I I okay. So a couple of thousand,
number one and we were talking about this before we
started recording. I have now seen this film four times, totally, okay,
right once I saw it in the theater during its
initial run. Yeah, and then in twenty nineteen, so I
didn't revisit it for ten years. In twenty nineteen, I

(12:53):
wrote a piece for the paper doing like a ten
year look back at Avatar. So I put it on
and I was like, it's all right, and it's fine,
you know. In my thing, I actually wrote the verdict,
it's dot dot dot fine. And then and then they
re released this one to theaters, you know, three years
ago or whatever it was two years ago, whenever the

(13:14):
last one came out just before that, and I was like, oh,
this is great. And then I watched this again. It
was commentary, and I had to space that out over
three days, you were, you know, just because it's long.
And I was like it's fine. I'm like, I think
that the big screen and the three D is like
a magical part of the mix. This is like the
Scooby snack that gets the whole thing going. You know.

Speaker 1 (13:37):
You see the American flag by the way in the
background with the blinds and the like machine.

Speaker 3 (13:41):
Have you ever noticed it?

Speaker 2 (13:42):
Yeah? Yeah, very clever and actually real quick before before
you go further, I want to just point out, while
Stephen Lang is front and center, yes, what a freaking
great bad guy. I was just yeah, I was like,
chef's kiss. There's a scene later where he's drinking coffee
while just all all kinds of ungodly shit he unleashed,
just going on. I'm like, this is a guy who

(14:03):
loves being a bad guy.

Speaker 1 (14:05):
Dude, I wrote down when he is watching them annihilate
the tree and he's standing in that like warship and
he's sipping coffee and he goes, let's make this quick.
I want to be home by dinner. I was like, whoa,
And it's him too, you know, like his Yeah, he's perfect.
I was thinking, if they hadn't used the name I
know this came first, but if they hadn't used the

(14:27):
name Lockjaw in one battle after another, like he could
totally be like Colonel Lockjaw.

Speaker 2 (14:35):
Okay, sorry you were saying. I didn't mean to interrupt you.

Speaker 1 (14:37):
No, no, well, I have so many things before I
even started this, and I hadn't watched this in years.
I don't even know it more than five six seven.
I didn't see it when it was re released, but
I literally, you know, like when a song you think
of a song, you think of like the hook, like
a little like appear in your head. For some reason,
I was like, oh yeah, Zachie and I are watching Avatar,
and I was like, eat your ass like Jujubes for

(15:00):
some reason that line. And I couldn't even remember when
it said or why he says it, but I just
kept thinking, your eyes like Juju Be's. And so when
I saw him rallying his troops here and he's warning
everyone basically about how dangerous Pandora is, He's like, everything
out there wants to kill you and eat your eyes
like Juju Bests.

Speaker 2 (15:16):
You're like he said it, he said the thing.

Speaker 1 (15:18):
He said it? No, so yeah, I like it's funny,
Like I I I feel like even if I mentioned
to people like oh yeah, Zaki and I are doing
a commentary and Avatar this week.

Speaker 3 (15:30):
There's a little bit of a h.

Speaker 1 (15:32):
You know, kind of attached to it. I mean with
almost every single person I brought it up with, and
then I watch it and I'm like, yeah, that is there.
But at the end of the day, like it's pretty good.
I don't know, like that was kind of my feeling.
Although I want to I want to agree with you.
I did find I had a wandering eye a little

(15:53):
bit occasionally watching this at home, which I don't tend
to do when I'm watching stuff, like I try to
keep my phone away from me, and so there is that,
like it is a different experience. Yeah, and it's funny.
I think that's something. There was such a conversation about
this came out two thousand and nine. He was promising sequels.
The years were going by, we weren't getting sequels, and

(16:16):
then that conversation was started. Does anyone even like remember Avatar,
Like things from Avatar haven't seeped into the culture. We
don't repeat lines, you don't see people on Avatar t shirt?

Speaker 2 (16:25):
Well you clearly did repeat Jujub has never left me
and I see you.

Speaker 3 (16:30):
I remember joking about I see.

Speaker 1 (16:31):
You with you ever ever since it came out, But
that became part of the conversation. And then the sequel
comes out and everyone's like.

Speaker 2 (16:43):
And by the way, speaking of I don't know how
many times I said, who's got my goddamn cigarette? Right right?

Speaker 1 (16:49):
I'm just doing which by the way, I read that
that cigarette is CGI. I don't know if it's a
prop in the smoke of CGI or something, which I
that was amazing because I didn't notice, which reminded me.
I watched the latest fifth season of Stranger Things recently,
and why non a writer is smoking the most obvious
CGI cigarette I've ever seen in my life, and I
was like, Wow, funny progressed in our CGI cigarettes. But no,

(17:12):
just what I'm basically trying to get at is what
we have learned. So the sequel comes out, Everyone's like,
there's no way he can do this again. We've had
this conversation for over a decade. These movies don't last
in the consciousness, and he's like, the only way this
movie can be successful is if it becomes the biggest
movie of all time. And everyone's like, you shouldn't say
things like that, mister Cameron, and then it becomes, you know,
the most successful movie of all time or second or

(17:34):
whatever it is. And so I think then we all
had the realization these movies rock in theaters, yep, And
we don't take them home with us, we don't watch
them on Disney Plus. But when the next one comes out,
we're all going and like and that's not even like dismissive.

(17:55):
It's like, that's what these movies exist to do for us.
These are, that's right, theatrical experiences. We will all go
and enjoy together and make it the third highest grossing
movie of all time or whatever, and then we will
move on from it until the next one, and we.

Speaker 3 (18:09):
Go back to the theater, which is what other movie exists.

Speaker 2 (18:13):
Like that, That's what I'm saying, man. I mean, it
occupies a very specific space. And you and I are
well established in terms of wanting the theatrical experience to
remain central to movie going. And while it may not
remain central, here's at least one thing that is central,

(18:37):
and that we'll get people going into the theater, you know.

Speaker 1 (18:40):
And I mean that's strangely, I mean, that was kind
of what Spielberg and Lucas predicted several years ago, right,
that the theater going would become more niche, and it
would have to be these big event type movies that
would actually get people out of their homes versus being
willing to check out some sort of mid you.

Speaker 3 (18:56):
Know, budgeted drama or something.

Speaker 1 (18:58):
And it feels like, as that's become more and more true,
it may be less you know, oh it's a block
of Godzilla or whatever. Those are in the mix now,
but those might even become more like HBO Max exclusives
or something, and it's going to be the avatars. They're like, no,
you go to the theater for this, and that's where
this thing is the thing and what it's for. And

(19:20):
you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (19:21):
Oh yeah, I mean when you've got an eighty five
inch TV high deaf at home, I mean, you know,
it gets it gets harder to justify, you know, getting
something that different from from theatrical. But I mean again, Avatar,
when you're looking when you're doing the IMAX three D,
I mean, it's it's it's it's unique, you know, totally totally.

(19:42):
Here's Giovanni Rubisi as Paul Reiser.

Speaker 1 (19:46):
Oh yeah, yeah, you're so right. It's yeah, one thing.

Speaker 2 (19:50):
We can tell about about James Camera, and he has
he has certain storytelling, you know, peculiarity, it's one of them.
He's not a fan of big corporation, right, and I
respect that.

Speaker 1 (20:03):
Yeah, yeah, I.

Speaker 2 (20:05):
Mean this is this is This is one thing that
becomes very clear to me watching this film is that
it's very earnest, yes, and its heart is very much
on its sleeve about where where its loyalties are. You know,
this is not it's not particularly subtle, no, right, And

(20:27):
and that was that was the critique. It took a
lot up back when it came out, like oh, it's
so it's Dune and fern Gully and dances with Wolves
and da da da dah film in the blank, right,
John Carter, you know, even though that came later. But
what you realize is that this for for a lot
of folks, this is their first that story, and so

(20:51):
it needs to kind of be at that level because
because it's making a broader point, and I think an
important one, right, because it's about valuing nature and recognizing
how we're all connected. I mean that's good. We don't
have to be on Pandora to love the earth, right,

(21:12):
and to recognize that there are forces that are trying
to take it away from us. And I really like
that that's the story he's telling. He's clearly very passionate
about that, and I think it means something very different
to the people who were nine when this came out
versus who were twenty nine when it came out.

Speaker 1 (21:33):
I completely agree with that, and I would it's kind
of fascinating, I think maybe for you and I where
there's movies that come out and we're like, huh oh,
that was the thing, and we just kind of move
on because we were thirty five when we saw it
or something, and then ten years goes by and you
find out that there's a generation of people passionate about
that thing because they saw it when they were an
enterten and I'd be very curious. I haven't really heard

(21:57):
kids who have grown up since this came out if
this is in their you know, beloved Cannon.

Speaker 2 (22:04):
Well, I can't speak to Beloved Cannon, but I mean,
just anecdotally back and forth with my students who are now,
you know, like eighteen nineteen, right, so they were little
teeny tinies when this one came out. You know, they
speak with great affinity for both this and the sequel,
So okay, it's definitely in the mix, you know.

Speaker 1 (22:24):
Yeah, And it's like you were saying, though, it's like
how straightforward it is. It's very simply stated, easy to understand,
universal themes. You can see why this was the biggest
movie in the world, Like the whole world could lock
into this story.

Speaker 2 (22:40):
Yeah, you know.

Speaker 3 (22:42):
I mean you could even watch it with the sound
off and follow it, you know.

Speaker 2 (22:46):
Very much so, and that was clearly Cameron's intent, you know.
I mean, I think he did probably sand off a
lot of the subtlety or the subtler edges, and that's
kind of a shame. I mean, you know, this sequence here,
I remember reading about how one of the earliest versions
has Jake sort of got onto the grass and instead

(23:07):
of running, you know, he sort of he collapses to
his knees and starts to cry, you know, And I
almost wish they would have kept something like that in.

Speaker 1 (23:18):
You know, I agree, I agree. I thought that was
what was going to happen, Like I thought he was
going to burst out the door and kind of fall
or something and get the hang of it, which is
interesting because then it made me think, you know, there's
this kind of famous anecdote where James Cameron wanted to
make Jurassic Park. That's right, you know, when that book

(23:38):
was coming out, and then Spielberg got it first, and
Cameron said, you know what, it's probably for the best
because if I had made it, I would.

Speaker 3 (23:46):
Have made Aliens with dinosaurs. It would have been r rated.

Speaker 1 (23:49):
And then you see what Spielberg did, and he made
something for everybody, for kids, and like dinosaurs are for kids,
My movie would have been the wrong movie, right, And
I think that's so interesting, you know, you know, it's
sort of like a Disney movie, is what he said, Like,
you know, I wouldn't made the Disney movie version of that,
which is funny. I was thinking about that as I
was watching this, because I thought, this, it feels like

(24:10):
a Disney movie, you know, and it's funny that that's
coming from James Cameron, right.

Speaker 2 (24:15):
Right, well, and I think that's part of the reason
why he didn't really skip a beat after the the
Disney purchase of Fox, right. I mean, you have to
imagine that they're just staying out of his way. They're like, hey,
just keep doing what you're doing because there's no real
you know, conflict with that company's goals, you know.

Speaker 1 (24:38):
And which is kind of interesting too, because you know,
James Cameron had this relationship with Fox, made Titanic, biggest
movie in the world, and he had an eighty page
treatment for this, a version of what would become that.

Speaker 2 (24:51):
This is like post true Lies, pre Titanic.

Speaker 1 (24:54):
Yeah, middle nineties basically, but he was realizing that the
technology wasn't there, but when it looked like it could
possibly be there, which I think happened after Lord of
the Rings, right, he saw Gollum yeah, and Davy Jones
and one of the Pirates movies and was like, maybe
we could do this, and so he presented it to
Fox and Fox was like, I don't know, man, you know,

(25:15):
like this is a lot. We're not so sure. So
then Cameron went and spoke with Disney, and Disney's like,
we're in, and so then Fox was like, who, we'll
hold on and then they exercise their first right of refusal,
was like, all right, well Disney wants it, you know,
we'll take it. And of course that was the right gamble.
But it's funny that Disney was interested in it, because
this does feel disney esque, and then Disney would eventually

(25:38):
get it because Disney.

Speaker 2 (25:41):
I mean even before the purchase, the whole world of
Pandora Disneyland thing was in development, right, this is before
Yeah yeah, So I mean, you know, the overlap is
as clear as day. M hm. It is interesting to me,
by the way. We you know, I think I think
overall the effects work holds up pretty darn well. Uh.

(26:04):
There are moments of like Uncanny Valley that like, like,
I don't think I ever get used to that first
shot of Grace in her avatar body.

Speaker 3 (26:14):
When they introduce her in the Stanfordshire. Yeah, yeah, her
face I get pretty good.

Speaker 2 (26:20):
Yeah, there's just I think it's just because we're so
we know what Sigourney Weaver sounds like sure sure, sure,
sure right, like and it's it's not you know, it's
not like she's voicing a cartoon character. It's meant to
be a you know, a room let person. By the way,
here's Michelle Rodriguez playing her character. Yeah, she's got like

(26:43):
one lane. It's a good she does it well.

Speaker 1 (26:45):
But she's you know, oh yeah, I like her. I
mean I remember seeing her all the way back in
Girl Fight. You know, she's special, like she she really
popped in that movie. And she's found her thing, you know,
so I'm happy she's hung in there well. In two
thousand and nine, the early part of the year saw
her character Letty die in in Uh Fast and Furious,

(27:08):
and then at the at the very end of the
year she dies again on screen. So she got doubled it.

Speaker 2 (27:13):
I mean, Letty came back later, but as far as
men you she was, she was dead.

Speaker 1 (27:16):
Yeah, no, but touching on the oh so he Actually
I wasn't gonna say this, but when Lang says that
there's low gravity, I was like, Oh, that's like a
nice thing to throw in there for when the bodies
look a little floaty when they're jumping. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (27:31):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (27:31):
I don't know if that was a consideration. We talk
about that sometimes with visual effects, where they can miss
a little bit of the the theft, you know, like
when you see a CGR car crash into something, Like
in my head, I always think like it's missing the
kuchunk that you would feel or sense when you see
a real car hit something. Sometimes they nail it and
you're like, oh, they got the kachunk. But yeah, to

(27:54):
your point, I think sometimes when they leap and land
on things, you can sense the lack of connection, yeah,
between the characters and the things they're touching, and then
like when they're holding ropes or when they're being bound
by things, you can kind of.

Speaker 2 (28:07):
Yeah, because you can't you can't exactly articulate gravity in
a computer, you know it like the weight of movement,
you know. Sometimes it's tricky.

Speaker 3 (28:21):
Yeah, And I mean for this that's the thing too.

Speaker 1 (28:23):
I wish I could go back to my two thousand
and nine Eyes because I do remember being blown away
by this, and I feel a lot of it is
still mind blowing for me. I think when it's nighttime
it's a little less successful. But whenever it's daylight and
you see those trees and there's some sort of haze
going on, and you see the military vehicles in the air,
and even like you can see more of the pores

(28:45):
on right all the daytime stuff.

Speaker 3 (28:48):
I'm like, this still looks incredible.

Speaker 2 (28:50):
It holds up remarkably well. Yeah, I mean you can.
I mean they busted their ass back then to sort
of have the movie stand the test of time, and
I think they succeeded. Yeah. Actually, speaking of two thousand
and nine Eyes, I'll tell you one thing. I distinctly
remember watching this opening night and this part right here.
I was like, Oh, okay, this is how the movie
is gonna end, introducing this vehicle this I was like, Oh,

(29:13):
so Quorich is in his Avatar and Jake is going
to be in his Avatar and they're gonna have a
throw it. I was like, yeah, right here. When he
does that, I was like, Oh, that's the ending of
the movie right there. Wow, that's pretty good. I remember
very distinctly being like, mental note, but let's put a
pin in that and we'll come back to it. That
is really funny. It is funny though, because the title

(29:38):
of the film has no bearing on anything after this movie.
I was thinking about that.

Speaker 1 (29:45):
M It's like the knives Out movies, where it's like, right,
wake up, dead Man, a knives out movie.

Speaker 2 (29:52):
It's like I was like, I was like, no one's
an Avatar anymore. Literally, no one is an Avatar anymore.

Speaker 3 (29:59):
That's a great point.

Speaker 2 (30:01):
It's a great all the NAVI like Colonel Koritch is
a Navy, but he's like a real Navy now, you know,
you know Grace, No, it's not even Grace, it's what
the daughter. I mean, every every noave character is an
actual navy Yeah.

Speaker 1 (30:14):
How funny.

Speaker 3 (30:16):
See this this stuff is stunning.

Speaker 2 (30:18):
No, it's beautiful. Yeah, I mean it looks and in
four K especially, man, it looks like Planet Earth or something,
you know, the documentary series.

Speaker 1 (30:28):
But I mean if the creatures look good, but even
like the nave here or there, I guess they're the avatars.
But well, this stuff, like I mean, the misty treaties
and everything just.

Speaker 3 (30:36):
Looks like you said, looks like the Earth documentary.

Speaker 1 (30:39):
But I don't know. Something about the characters in sunlight
really makes it look amazing. And then I feel like
they become a little more cartoon looking when.

Speaker 2 (30:48):
It's when you've got like the luminescence at night and stuff.
You know, I think partly because you know, the sunlight
forces us to view it through the lens of what
we know, what's familiar. You know, it's a great point
and it has to be animated that way, and then
you know it it becomes a cgi wonderland and it's

(31:11):
beautiful to look at it. But yeah, it feels a
little more more unnatural.

Speaker 1 (31:15):
Yeah, well kind of interesting. I mean speaking of you know,
the bioluminescence, uh nighttime look of the planets and and
even the characters themselves. I mean, all this stuff came
from dreams, which is a familiar story with James Cameron, right,
Like he imagined the Terminator coming out of like rubble

(31:40):
in a nightmare, like a fiery rubble.

Speaker 2 (31:41):
And he's like, I want to have whatever weird spicy
sushi or whatever shit he's eaten.

Speaker 3 (31:46):
Well, I was gonna say so. So he as a kid.

Speaker 1 (31:50):
Had a dream about like a bioluminescent planet where when
you took steps it lit up beneath your foot. And
then his mom, he says, had a dream about a
twelve foot tall blue woman with six breasts, and and
so then he was like, well the breast didn't work,
so we got rid of that. But like not a

(32:10):
bad not a bad dream, huh. And I was like, yeah,
the Camerons have very profitable dreams.

Speaker 2 (32:16):
Geez. Meanwhile, and well my mom has. My mom has
dreams where I'm not a disappointment to her, right, And
then she was I'm joking. I'm sure I'm not a disappointment. No,

(32:39):
I see you, thanks man. See see the navvy grace.
There is something uncanny Valley about her, more so than
than any of the other ones, and I don't know
why that is.

Speaker 1 (32:57):
You know what's strange, though, is I I will say,
she's the one that looks most distinctive, more so than
any of the others, and she has a little bit
more of a human nose. Maybe that helps me identify
her more as Sigourney Weaver, whereas.

Speaker 3 (33:13):
Yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (33:13):
I just I feel like it doesn't help that they
look so similar and that they don't act very different
from one another than Novi. And then it makes me
think of the sequel. I remember that he has these
kids and they're like the main characters in those And
you know, I saw the movie. I enjoyed it enough,
but I don't remember any of them or their personalities,

(33:36):
you know, So it's not like I'm really important to
see you don't remember. Look, yeah, you know what I mean.
So it's exactly. But but I'm eager to see the
new one because I know it'll be an experience. But
it would be nice if I could lock onto these
characters better than I do.

Speaker 2 (33:55):
So Jake Sully kind of an idiot.

Speaker 1 (33:57):
Huh, just touching everything.

Speaker 2 (34:00):
Yeah, I'm like, hey, stupid, why don't you Why don't
you just like uh, you know, uh, hold back slightly,
like carry yourself with I mean, he's supposed to be
a marine. He's not a moron, right.

Speaker 1 (34:11):
Right right this Actually that would be kind of interesting. Yeah,
if he was just like the dopey brother, like he
was Uncle buck you know what I mean? Whoa, that's
the movie I want to see where Uncle Bucket but
his scientist brother couldn't you know, got killed, so he
has to go. And then they play wild thing by tone.
Look in the trailer, whoa, everything glows playing the drums

(34:36):
on things.

Speaker 2 (34:39):
I think this Christmas. I'm I'm I'm in man. Yeah,
I think the first you know whatever. However, many minutes
of this movie we're into a lot of it is
like the throat clearing because when you think about it,
like the whole business of what the avatar is and

(35:00):
how it works and the DNA and everything. They they
speed ramp past it as much as they can, Yeah,
because it's all a bunch of argyll bargle. Yeah yeah, yeah,
And it's just you got to figure out how to
get Jake into this body? Why does it you know?
But it's not his body. They made for his brother,

(35:21):
and so he's not there, you know, like that's all
the the stuff that you just have to get past. Which,
going back to what I was saying earlier, it makes
it even more funny to me that the movie is
called Avatar, because it is kind of like a generic
nothing of a title. Yeah, you know what I mean.
I almost feel like they should have called it Pandora.
That would have been a better title.

Speaker 1 (35:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (35:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (35:45):
Well, and then for the sequels, like you were saying earlier,
he certainly or Fire and Ash yeah you know, yeah,
I don't know, maybe the music service wouldn't allow it
or something.

Speaker 2 (35:55):
Oh that's a good point. Yeah, no idea. Well, speaking
of music, thing that really did stick out to me
this time was how much I miss James Horner.

Speaker 1 (36:05):
I had the same feelings. He is just man, talk
about someone like you just hear a few notes from
the man. Yeah, and he just I don't know, chills.
He really he's so good at sweeping this, you know,
I think of you know, obviously Titanic, Brave Heart rocketeer,

(36:28):
you know what I mean, Like he just captures grandeur
and sweepingness and I don't know, majesty so well, yeah,
I just oh gosh, I miss him.

Speaker 2 (36:37):
Yeah, I you know, because because he did not do
the music for well either Seaguals. But I think he
had started writing music for the first time. But I
mean obviously not at all involved in in the most
recent one, which I have seen and you have not.
We should mention as a as a little stick pin
in time here and having just seen the third one
back to back with this one, this one after like, man,

(37:01):
he's really missed.

Speaker 3 (37:03):
Oh really Okay, I mean not even like I don't.

Speaker 2 (37:06):
I don't mean that to sound like a ding on
on the new movie, but I'm just like, the score
doesn't do what this one does for me.

Speaker 1 (37:13):
You know, I do remember, as someone who maybe saw
the movie twice, this the first one, then saw the sequel,
I do remember hearing like the four note theme, you know,
the don.

Speaker 2 (37:27):
That's more.

Speaker 1 (37:28):
But I remember thinking like, oh, yeah, I'm I'm back
in like a place that I enjoy yeah, like and
I give that credit to Horner. He created something that
I enjoyed hearing that made me feel like I enjoyed
being there, you know, it gave me an emotional feeling.

Speaker 2 (37:47):
Yeah, So just well that that that isn't the new
and you'll definitely hear that, but you know, James Horner
was what really was singular. You know, he's been I
mean for he's been gone for ten years now recording this. Wow.

Speaker 1 (38:02):
But yeah, but I I think along with what you're saying,
it's it's not just the themes, and the themes are great,
but it's the music that's in between the themes also,
like the underscore underscore, and you know, he you even
hear a little bit of alien in this, you know
where you hear that what sounds like someone hitting a
steel Annville, you know, you know, like and it just
gives you this real like sense of urgency.

Speaker 3 (38:23):
And yeah, he was he was one of the masters.

Speaker 2 (38:27):
Yeah, I I remember, you know, and James Cameron, sorry,
James Horner was known even when he was alive for
you know, he would reuse many of his motives, you know,
and at the time, you know, you would sort of
nudge him good naturedly about that. And now it's like, ah,
that's that thing that he did all the time and
nobody else did or does, you know, so you miss

(38:48):
it even more, you know, and I love how it
makes me feel, Yeah, like there's this way it's like you.

Speaker 1 (38:54):
Know he is oh yeah, yeah, the horn.

Speaker 2 (38:58):
Yep.

Speaker 3 (38:59):
Yeah, you'll hear any movie he scores, you'll hear that.

Speaker 2 (39:01):
Yep. It's so funny.

Speaker 3 (39:06):
I'm admiring. What are we thirty minutes in? Just about
thirty two minutes in.

Speaker 1 (39:13):
Just the well the efficiency I was you were talking
about it earlier, but just how quickly. There's a lot
to explain, but they do it as efficiently as possible.
I get it.

Speaker 3 (39:25):
And he's already in his avatar and he's on.

Speaker 1 (39:27):
A hunt and it's like twenty some minutes in, Like
that's pretty great. And then I don't know, just watching
this with the sound off and you know, seeing this
warrior about to you know, shoot Jake. But then these
magical little fluffy things come down to land on the
arrow like telling her no, Like it's that's just making
it's making me feel something, you know. It's like it's

(39:48):
I got to give the movie that, Like it's it's
still somehow can't shake a little bit of a silliness,
you know, this movie, but.

Speaker 2 (39:59):
It also works, you know, I agree. And by the way,
those magical fluffy things they're called taylu by the.

Speaker 1 (40:10):
Please don't do you have something like open in front
of you, like yeah, I just pulled it up. It's amazing.
Excuse me, Brian.

Speaker 2 (40:21):
But I remember, like after this movie came out reading
articles about people who left the movies and were like
depressed that they didn't live on Pandora. You know, yeah,
same and and and I remember, you know, people kind

(40:43):
of chuckled and or pointed fingers at those type of stories.
But I think that speaks to sort of the purity
of what Cameron was attempting to do.

Speaker 1 (40:56):
Escape One.

Speaker 2 (40:57):
Yeah, he wanted to create a place that, in addition
to offering escapism, felt so immersive that you felt like
you felt like Jake when he lies down in his
little that that bed and he you know, and he's
in his knobby body. That's what he wanted audiences to feel.

Speaker 1 (41:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (41:19):
And look, you know, money doesn't lie. I mean, this
movie did not make three billion dollars almost from hate watching.

Speaker 3 (41:29):
Yeah, yeah, that's a great point, Like.

Speaker 2 (41:32):
You have to you have to look at that. It's
one thing if the movie tanks, you say, Okay, well
it didn't succeed. No, no, you make that kind of
money because people are going back again and again to
watch it.

Speaker 1 (41:42):
You know, I want to comment on what you just said,
You're so right. I hadn't appreciated it enough. But the
world is so immersive, every detail. And one of the
things that's been driving me crazy in the past maybe
ten ish years, is when you see characters in another
planet or a weird sort of space, it doesn't really

(42:07):
go that far back visually, like I mean, one of
the first examples that comes to mind is Rise of Skywalker,
when Ray is in the Emperor's Arena and it's so
vague the space that she's in. It's all dark and
shadowy and almost like they didn't quite know what they
wanted to put there and then just decided, what if

(42:29):
we didn't put anything? You know.

Speaker 3 (42:31):
And I know this isn't a great.

Speaker 1 (42:33):
Example, but I think of Deadpool and Wolverine where they're
in that wasteland, and which it is a wasteland, to
be fair, but it also reminds me of a lot
of these settings we see now that are you know,
dropped in through visual effects, that our characters are wandering
through in other planets where there's just.

Speaker 3 (42:51):
It's just kind of nothing, you know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (42:54):
There's not a lot of texture or detail or anything
behind them. It's just it's very vague. It's more like
a color that they're wandering through, you know, like a
ground and sort of a out of focus you know, background,
and this, Yeah, this feels like a place that I
can imagine walking through. I can close my eyes and
picture what it would be like to walk on those

(43:15):
branches and there the vines and.

Speaker 2 (43:18):
All of that, you know, and well and and see.
I think what that gets to is how deeply you
think through the fantasy environment your characters are in, right,
because you could be like, oh, you know, everything these
days it's they're not shooting on real location. Everything's on
a green screen, right. Well, I mean this is obviously
green screen, right, but you know, as what I read

(43:43):
is that Cameron took you know, Zoe Saldana and Sam
Arthington to Hawaii and they were just trapesing through the
forests to get a feel for what that's like, you know. Yeah,
and we know he's so he's so a detail oriented

(44:05):
that he would really want all of the footfalls and
everything to really have have, you know, to have some
degree of physics behind it, you know. And I think
unfortunately we're in a time now where there's a sense
of like, oh, just have the CGI artists to do
it and without giving them the proper runway to really

(44:26):
execute maximally. Right.

Speaker 1 (44:28):
I'm glad you said that, because yeah, there's nothing wrong
with the visual effects or the visual effects artists. It's
a lack of you know, thinking things through and it's like, well,
what's back there, Like I don't know, fill it in,
you know, whereas James Cameron, like this place exists in
his mind and obviously he has you know, the cachet
that he has where he could have Fox pay him

(44:50):
for eighteen months just to develop a world, you know,
and hire artists to come up with all these things.
Not everybody has that luxury. But you know, his passion
for this and the proof that this has existed for
decades in his mind is all on screen here.

Speaker 2 (45:08):
That's really I you know, I think anybody who signs
up to work for James Cameron knows what they're getting,
you know, and he's going to be exacting. But I mean,
to his credit, he holds himself to a high standard
in terms of the movies that are put out there.
You know. Yeah, I heard tell that, Like he kept

(45:29):
a nail gun on him and if anybody's phone rang,
he would nail it to the wall, and I'm like,
what kind of frickin dumb ass person he would show
up on, of all sets, a James Cameron set without
your phone silenced?

Speaker 1 (45:48):
Yeah, you know, I mean I've heard I've heard stories
about you know, they make crew T shirts that are
just blocks of text of all the insults that he
lobbed during the entire shoot. And they're like they're not
even like, you know, like clever and creative, They're just like,
you know what, effing idiot.

Speaker 3 (46:05):
You know, they're just very mean.

Speaker 2 (46:08):
You know.

Speaker 1 (46:09):
But it's like people are like, yeah, James Cameron, It's
just it's just one of those people that can kind
of get away with that.

Speaker 2 (46:16):
Yeah, I mean, I I don't think I would. I
would want to be anywhere anywhere near a film set,
like a James Cameron film set. I'd love to sit
at a table and talk about like freaking like like
Blade Runner with him or something. Yeah, you know, like
not even movies he's made, just movies he likes.

Speaker 3 (46:32):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 1 (46:32):
Actually I would do.

Speaker 2 (46:35):
And as I said before, I'd be like, so, so, Jim,
what do you think of Stockton Rush? And then I
just kind of sit lean back for the next eighteen
hours as he just went off. You know.

Speaker 1 (46:45):
But that's the thing, right, like you don't we don't
get a lot of long form interviews with him. But
with this latest you know, Fire and Ash coming out,
he has done a couple of podcasts and I've.

Speaker 3 (46:56):
Gobbled them up because I'm very interested to hear what
what's on his mind.

Speaker 2 (47:01):
Yeah, well, I mean, sorry, that.

Speaker 1 (47:03):
Cracks me up by the way, where these like magical
creatures are like choosing him and being like you are
the chosen one, and he's just flicking them away like
stop it at that cracks.

Speaker 2 (47:13):
Me up.

Speaker 1 (47:16):
Anyway.

Speaker 2 (47:16):
Sorry, I had to point that out. No, what was
I saying? Yeah, yeah, I think that the desire that
he has to give all of this authenticity is you know,

(47:37):
it's reflected in sort of the exacting nature, and I
think that's part of why fifteen years later, we're able
to look at this this frame right here and say
it's a beautiful frame and it still holds up. They
didn't cut corners and that makes the difference, you know. Yep,
It's it's somewhat ironic because the first time I ever

(47:58):
heard the phrase and his temporary film is Forever was
attributed to Peter Jackson on the Lord of the Rings trilogy.

Speaker 3 (48:08):
Oh interesting, I was for me it was Zamechas.

Speaker 2 (48:12):
Yeah, right, I think with regards to the future, probably right, Yeah,
And that was a quote that I you know, I
put it in my well, maybe Zamechas conveyed it to
Peter Jackson because they he produced The Frighteners.

Speaker 3 (48:27):
Oh interesting, Oh interesting, yeah.

Speaker 2 (48:29):
Right, But anyway, I remember that quote as something like,
you know, you put in the effort at this stage.
It's it's hard, but I mean, this is a movie
that's going to live forever. And I contrast that with
and I've told you about this before when you watch
the behind the scenes footage of the Hobbit trilogy, where
Peter Jackson is is somewhat like just a husk of
a man, right trying to you know, because because that movie,

(48:53):
that trilogy was supposed to be two movies, and then
at the eleventh hour Warner Brothers like, no, it's going
to be three, and he has to sort of contrive
an ending, a cliffhanger for movie two to lead into
movie three. And you see him on this sid it's
just a green screen, and he's like and then you're
gonna go like this, this, this, and he's like acting
out motions and these actors like okay, you know, the
kind of shruggling shoulders and that sequence in the film.

(49:15):
I will just say, even though I like that trilogy,
that sequence is not it's not great. Sure, sure, because
you see the stitches a little bit, you know, and
you know, it's like even Peter Jackson got broken a
little bit, you know, And so I respect that James

(49:38):
Cameron at this point, correct me if I'm wrong. This
right here. Avatar it's the only filmmaker driven franchise left
in town.

Speaker 1 (49:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (49:50):
Yeah, he's the only one who's got the juice yea
to be like, we're gonna do it my way. My
way is the only way, and that's it, you know.
And I think part of it is because he can
be like, look, you guys want to make an Avatar
without me, go nuts, right try, you know, right right,
good luck.

Speaker 3 (50:09):
That's a good point.

Speaker 1 (50:10):
And it's I heard him on a podcast. I wish
I could remember which one it was, but and he
was even saying, you know, about the changing landscape of
theatrical movies, and he was like, there's just not an
ecosystem for another meed to happen. Yeah, and he's like,
so I get to make this, He's like, but there
could be someone else out there who's got this a

(50:32):
thing like this living in their brain and they'll never
get to share it with anybody. And so then you
know you've got like these you know, exciting filmmakers coming up.
What's the guy Predator bad Lands? Oh yeah, Dan Trackenberg
and and I bet he's got something in there like this,

(50:53):
but like, he's gonna have to keep making Predator movies
and I like them, but that's the only thing that
people are a trust to be made in this moment.
And so it's kind of like cool, but like, what
are we missing out on? That could be the thing
that you could be, the new thing you could be
dining out on for the next twenty years.

Speaker 2 (51:12):
You know, that's really something. Yeah. I mean, Avatar could
only happen because the movie before it was Titanic.

Speaker 1 (51:18):
Oh, I mean yeah, you think about if Titanic hadn't happened,
we still might we might not have gotten Avatar from
even James Cameron. Titanic allows you to be.

Speaker 3 (51:26):
Like blue people that cost three hundred million, Okay, Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (51:30):
That's exactly it. Yeah, so did you know that Dad
here is played by Wes Study.

Speaker 1 (51:37):
I did because I had done some research before I
watched it, but I don't know that I would have
remembered that.

Speaker 2 (51:43):
Yeah. I looked it up after. I was like, well,
I'll be damned. I love West Study.

Speaker 1 (51:45):
He's a great Yeah. Yeah, you know, I thought was
kind of interesting by the way, and some of the
research I did, so, you know, Fox obviously took a
big gamble, and this was kind of you know, speaking
of like a blank check, you know, like Cameron's earned
his blank check movies. The one thing that they wouldn't

(52:07):
allow him to do was because he wanted to make
this shoot it in three D. He wanted the action
sequences to be at forty eight frames per second. Oh okay, gotchay,
And so they were like no, that was like a
line that they drew, like, you know, all movies are
twenty four frames, this is going to be twenty four frames.

Speaker 3 (52:25):
What I thought was interesting.

Speaker 1 (52:26):
Was then when he re released it, the action sequences
arened forty eight frames per second. Because after he made,
you know, a three billion dollar movie, he could be
there like, uh, yeah, I guess what you're paying for
on this re release.

Speaker 2 (52:39):
The thing I hate forty eight fps. It drives me bananas.

Speaker 3 (52:42):
Well, it's gonna say.

Speaker 1 (52:42):
And then the second one had that during the action
sequences forty eight frames per so he got to do
it on first go, and I assumed the third one
has it. It does yeah, yeah, and so yeah, yearning
load it?

Speaker 2 (52:56):
I load it? Yeah, tell tell me?

Speaker 3 (52:57):
Why can you? Can you describe it?

Speaker 1 (52:59):
What it it looks?

Speaker 2 (53:01):
I can't. Well, and actually, real quick, before you know,
you talk about how this movie very much falls into
the tropes of these type of pictures. You know, the
character Sutek who initially is like you know this outside
or whatever. It's like you know, you you you know
the rhythms of these things. Oh, it's like that's the
guy who's gonna hate him initially, and then they're gonna
become best friends, you know, right, he's he's wind in

(53:23):
his hair or whatever, you know, all the things, you know,
and so again you always have to look at it
from the lens of like, Okay, but imagine this is
somebody's first time watching this, right, they'll appreciate that character progression.
But but yeah, forty eight frames for a second. I
think I told this story many many moons ago, so
at this point it's been long enough. My first encounter
with forty eight frames a second was actually watching the

(53:45):
first Hobbit film, an unexpenditure, and it was it was
IMAX three D forty eight frames a second, and I
don't know what it was. I think it was that
particular mix of ingredients. It's like it's like The Jokers,
Poisons and bat nine where certain things together, and that
was the mix. And about a third of the way

(54:05):
into that movie, I was like, I'm gonna throw up
or pass out. And since I got up and I
left the theater and I literally did pass out, wow,
because one of the people working at the theater woke
me up. Really, so you were like not for long,
maybe maybe for maybe thirty seconds if that, but for

(54:28):
sure I was, you know, like I was like, what happened?
You know? Yeah? So that's obviously that's like a data
point where a bad mix. It didn't happen with with
with the avatar. But to me, weirdly, even though forty
eight frames a second, see, that was my point of
view right there. The AMC guys like, hey, buddy, you okay,

(54:50):
you know, I think forty eight frames a second is
meant to be closer to normal movement, right, that's the
filmmak impetus behind it. Sure, but I think that well,
and I think, sorry, I think Cameron wants it because
it reduces like the jutter that happens when the camera's

(55:11):
moving around fast.

Speaker 1 (55:13):
So there's like a you know, the so for three D.

Speaker 3 (55:16):
He thinks it's a better experience if you're seeing less flicker.

Speaker 2 (55:18):
But here's the problem. To me, it looks like video
game cutscenes.

Speaker 1 (55:24):
Yeah, or like a soap opera, you know. It's like
that terrible motion smoothing thing on your exactly.

Speaker 2 (55:29):
It's too smooth, you know. I think that that persistence
of vision and sort of there's an aspect of twenty
four frames a second that lets your brain do some
of the work that gives it more smoothness weirdly than
forty eight frames a second. And so I hate it.
I just don't like it. And I think in my

(55:51):
you know, now, one, two, three avatars I've seen with
that forty eight frames a second, it it's distracting because
the character scene don't have it, And then you go
to wide shots with action and it's very prominent and yeah,
yeah that that transition is very distracting.

Speaker 1 (56:12):
Yeah, yeah, mixing them. If you're gonna do the whole
thing one way, maybe you'll calibrate. But yeah, I'm trying.

Speaker 3 (56:19):
Remember the first time I ever saw it was that
Will Smith movie Gemini Man.

Speaker 2 (56:23):
Yes, oh that's right, Yeah, which.

Speaker 1 (56:25):
I remember is seeing just for that reason, like I
didn't have a lot of interest in it, but I
was like, I want to see what that looks like
because I hadn't seen to that point, and I was like, yeah,
I just I don't know, it doesn't do anything for me.

Speaker 2 (56:38):
Yeah, I know filmmakers seem to have just a heart
on for it, but some of them do.

Speaker 1 (56:43):
Yeah, I know, well Jackson and then ang Lee remember that,
and it was like maybe even like.

Speaker 2 (56:49):
Listen Gemini Man, Anglee, wasn't that him? Or that was
John who directed that Gemini Man?

Speaker 1 (56:54):
Actually, I literally.

Speaker 3 (56:55):
Just I had it up and then I wasn't it Angley?

Speaker 1 (56:58):
Maybe I don't even remember.

Speaker 2 (57:01):
That movie was pretty pretty mid Yeah is that funny?

Speaker 1 (57:05):
Yeah? Oh yeah he did that Billy was it Billy.

Speaker 3 (57:08):
Lyn's Halftime Walk?

Speaker 2 (57:09):
That was another one where yeah, the whole thing was Yeah,
I just think I don't think people like it, you know,
I think we're used to the image that twenty four
frames a second gives us. M hm, you know, well
to your point, I don't like the jumping between them.
I find that distracting very much.

Speaker 1 (57:29):
So yeah, yeah, not like this is it like a
whole story thing where it's basically these scientists have studied
these people for a long time, and obviously they're the
ones who would like to connect. But this this guy
somehow found his way in is he gets this guy
who's a little jealous of it.

Speaker 2 (57:46):
Now, didn't you get the sense that that norm like
that would be more of a thing that he's jealous
of Jake? And right, like it almost feels like that
was something that maybe they thought of early on and
they just decided not to do.

Speaker 1 (57:59):
Yeah, I mean it's it's here, we get it in
this scene, but it's not something that continues, I guess, right.

Speaker 2 (58:04):
I mean, by by the second act, you know, they're
they're sympatico. But it almost it almost felt like that
would have been some kind of a plot line.

Speaker 1 (58:13):
I could see that. I mean, maybe it was in
his director's cut that's like over three hours and then
they're like this.

Speaker 2 (58:19):
The super duper extendo version.

Speaker 1 (58:22):
Yeah, yeah, which I actually have.

Speaker 2 (58:25):
I have.

Speaker 1 (58:26):
I had a friend that worked at Fox and he
got me the Blu ray that has all the additions.
Now I'm kind of regretting I didn't watch the longer
version so I could have it as comparison, right now.

Speaker 2 (58:34):
Yeah, the three hour cut. It's see, it's weird because
that's what I watched. And other than that, that prologue sequence,
that's the thing that sticks out as the most like,
oh yeah, that definitely wasn't in the theatrical. The rest
of it is. It's all just texture mostly, you know,
And I I think, you know, we've talked about this
before where I think Cameron's instincts are pretty good in

(58:58):
terms of what to what to cut for the theatrical
and knowing that he can he can he can make
his longer version anyway, you know, because he's done that
with Alien, he did it with T two.

Speaker 1 (59:10):
Yeah, yeah, abyss, you know that's right, Yeah, almost every
almost everyone.

Speaker 2 (59:16):
Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, I think other than like Titanic
and True Lies, you know. Yeah, and you know, like
Aliens is a good example, right because the special edition
I think is pretty darn good. But if if, if
you if you're just coming in and you're not already
on board, then you know, what theatrical cut gives you

(59:36):
is is plenty.

Speaker 1 (59:38):
I kind of feel that way about the Abyss, although
I mean it significantly alters the other that one, I
feel like you're in the minority on because I think
most people tend to prefer that the director's cutter the
special I like.

Speaker 3 (59:50):
The changes to the third act.

Speaker 1 (59:52):
I would keep the director's cut third act, but I
feel like he adds some things that just move a
little bit of the snap remove you know, it lacks
a little snap for the first two acts that I
prefer in the theatrical cut. But I do like, yeah,
everything that happens in the third act, which is a
lot more. But anyway, we avatar.

Speaker 2 (01:00:16):
Yeah, so well, we were talking about, you know, at
least for me, the little bit of Uncanny Valley with
the Grace Nave, I don't get that at all.

Speaker 3 (01:00:25):
With Natiri, she's the best. To me, I think the
best realized.

Speaker 2 (01:00:31):
That's amazing. What's crazy is it is clearly Zoe Saldana, Yes,
Like I mean you can see that it is her,
and yet it is not her, it's extraordinary.

Speaker 1 (01:00:42):
You know. Yeah, And I just feel, I don't know,
I kind of wonder too if there was like tears
to the level of detail.

Speaker 3 (01:00:55):
For certain shots where it's like, Okay, this is kind.

Speaker 1 (01:00:57):
Of like a more wide shot. Maybe we don't need
to go as hard on this just for the sake
of time, you know, money or whatever. But then sometimes
you see these close up shots in the tirie where
there's like sun behind her and you can see, you know,
the light through her hair like this, the detail on
her is insane. I feel like I noticed it more

(01:01:17):
on her than anyone else.

Speaker 2 (01:01:19):
Yeah, well, I think that the challenge is she has
to look alien, but she's also kind of gotta look
hot too, right.

Speaker 1 (01:01:29):
Like, yeah, because we need to, you know, understand our
human character falling in love with her.

Speaker 2 (01:01:34):
Right And that's kind of that's a balancing act, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:01:40):
But I hadn't even thought about it till right now.
But it is interesting.

Speaker 1 (01:01:44):
I feel like Sigourney Weaver's avatar is the only one
that looks more it looks more human like than any
of the others.

Speaker 2 (01:01:51):
I think that's the problem, is it looks too much
like her. Yeah, that's the That's why it irks me
a little.

Speaker 3 (01:01:59):
So like when she smiles or something, You're like, that
doesn't look great.

Speaker 2 (01:02:04):
Yeah, because because the the the Kiri character her the
Grace's daughter, who also Sigourney he replaced. I don't get
that same uncanny valley with her, not in the same
way these. Look at these, I mean look at the
the the the just bonkers vision that James Cameron has.

(01:02:28):
You know, let's on these mountains.

Speaker 1 (01:02:29):
That float, you know, yeazing beautiful in these like vines
connecting some of them, and like, yeah, it's it's gorgeous.

Speaker 2 (01:02:39):
Gotta be honest, though, I I like how the ships
are very like Ron Cobb alien alien style. I mean,
they feel like they could fit into his Aliens universe,
you know, James Cameron.

Speaker 3 (01:02:53):
That's a great point.

Speaker 1 (01:02:54):
I didn't think about that, but that's probably why I
like them.

Speaker 2 (01:02:58):
And and yet I mean, look at this right here
like that, I mean that could be the Salaco you know,
m yeah, but it but juxtaposed with this utterly, utterly
transporting you know, fantasia around them, I think that's what
that's what makes it work for me. You know, this was.

Speaker 1 (01:03:23):
Actually there was two things that I was going to
bring up. Well, you know, I'll bring this up first.
I always find it fascinating when new languages are created
for films.

Speaker 2 (01:03:32):
Oh yeah, like.

Speaker 1 (01:03:34):
What a like that's wild, Like that just feels like
a lot of work, you know, coming up with I
don't know, sentence structures and certain words and how to
pronounce them. And so they yeah, they brought in a
linguist for this movie and created the Navi language from scratch.
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:03:51):
I just find that kind of amazing.

Speaker 1 (01:03:53):
Yeah, you know, and they, I mean, they do that
for a lot of films, but you know, well Lord
of the Rings, right, Elvin and everything that's right, I
don't know, And so I just think it's it's it's
one thing to make a movie and it takes place
in Japan and you learn some Japanese words, you're like, oh,
I know a few of these words, and you kind
of can build off of that. But here it's like

(01:04:13):
this just comes from absolutely nowhere, and you've got to
learn all this language and then have someone tell you
you're doing it wrong, you know, right, I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:04:24):
It's always impressive to me.

Speaker 1 (01:04:29):
And I was reading too when they were considering it,
just well they came up with about a thousand words,
and they were like Cameron's order was, and it has
to sound nice to the audience, you know what I mean.
So it's like just now go get to work. Yeah, yeah,
like something that's pleasing to listen to. I don't know,
it's interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:04:47):
There. There's one bit of backstory in the in the
special edition that I thought was I don't believe it's
it's in this It's where Grace talks about how how
NITII had a sister. Oh, and she taught both of them,
like that's why she said, Na Tiri and her sister
were like two of her best students. And the sister

(01:05:08):
was killed by the by the Marines or whatever. And
and I'm like, you know, I definitely I understand cutting it,
probably just just for the sake of pacing. But I
also thinks as a bit of backstory, I think that's
that's helpful just in terms of broadening out the world

(01:05:29):
before we get here. You know, this stuff all looks
Oh it's fantastic.

Speaker 1 (01:05:35):
Yeah, And I mean she looks and I was talking
about you know, heft and weight and things like the
way that she's positioned on that thing and soaring through
the air like that, you know, it just it looks
very good. Yeah, this was one of the first times
I remember reading about and maybe it was developed for

(01:05:57):
this film. But Cameron had a virtual camera system, okay,
where he could you know. I had read that the
acting portion of this was captured in like thirty one days,
you know, because why not, right, Like, you don't have
to set up shots. They're literally just in like an
open area in these capture suits. Act out the whole movie.

(01:06:19):
Then you have the data, put it into a computer.
Then Cameron goes in and crafts, well, let's make this
a close up, you know, like it just he's got
all of it. It can be anything he wants, so he
can choose, well, let's swoop around this, let's look at
this from behind, let's put the camera up hi over here,
just with everything he's already captured in the thirty days.
But when he was there capturing that stuff, he had

(01:06:42):
a virtual camera system where he could look through the
camera and see what the actors would kind of look
like in a rudimentary way as their characters, but also
see forest behind them, you know, like fill in the background.
He said it was like a big, powerful game engine.
You know, we're like he sing, so he could get
an idea of what it would look like if they

(01:07:03):
were in a big open field versus, oh, they're on
top of a mountain or you know.

Speaker 3 (01:07:07):
Yeah, but I feel like I've seen that since. But
I think that might have been something he developed for
this right.

Speaker 2 (01:07:14):
By the way, one one effect that doesn't get commented
on nearly enough is how they how they made Jake's
legs look you know, atrophye, emaciated, you know, emaciated. Yeah,
very subtle effect, but effective, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:07:29):
Yeah, I was reading that they found someone who didn't
have use of their legs, who was kind of the
same build as Worthington, and they made molds and so
Worthington his legs are like hidden in the wheelchair. He's
in a wheelchair and then they have the prosthetic things.

Speaker 2 (01:07:48):
That's great.

Speaker 1 (01:07:49):
Yeah, yeah, it's effective for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:07:57):
And that's the thing.

Speaker 1 (01:07:58):
I forgot about that component, by the way, Sorry, just
I forgot about the component where he's someone yeah, who's
lost the ability to walk, and then through this experience
he's able to you know, walk and run and jump
again like that. That's just like a component i'd forgotten
about his character.

Speaker 2 (01:08:15):
Yeah, and you know they established that early on, where
you know, if you have the means, then you don't
have to be be crippled, you know. And and Korich,
Colonel Korich says, you know, you do you function as
our you know, as our trojan horse, then you know
you'll get your legs back. Mm hmm. But and that's

(01:08:37):
where I think having you know, showing that the prologue
sequence of how just how shitty life is on Earth,
where I think that would have been helpful just in
terms of really cementing for Jake, like, Okay, I get
my legs back, but what kind of what kind of
life do I want to live? You know?

Speaker 1 (01:08:58):
Interesting to the subtle different and says between the Avatars
and the true Nave, where the Nave have less fingers, yeah, right,
like the avatars have five fingers on each hand and
they have excuse me, they have eyebrows, the avatars.

Speaker 2 (01:09:13):
Right, don't see. I also think it's interesting that it's
not meant to be like they're hiding who they are
from the Noave, Like the Nave they know the drill,
you know, right right. And I was thinking, I was
like I kind of like that, because it it sort

(01:09:34):
of implies that they're not morons.

Speaker 1 (01:09:36):
You know, yeah, right right right, you.

Speaker 2 (01:09:39):
Know, it gives them the courtesy of being treated like
intelligent people, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:09:42):
But to them are hue or are the avatars? Is
it like if we were to see the guy from
Men in Black and the Edgar suit, like you one,
just like you, let's shoot some hoops and he's like
like hobbling everywhere, like does it?

Speaker 2 (01:09:58):
Well? I think it's it's more like the the you know,
the little alien guy inside the head, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:10:03):
Yeah, I no idea much better. Yeah, yeah, all this
stuff looks amazing, the way the light's bouncing off of them.

Speaker 2 (01:10:12):
So this too. For Zoe Saldania, the Star Trek was
was just a few months before this. Yeah yeah right,
she too had a pretty good pretty good on nine,
pretty pretty good on nine, and just a good career
in general, considering like one of her first gigs was
was Crossroads opposite Britney Spears.

Speaker 1 (01:10:30):
Oh yeah, how funny she's done alright?

Speaker 2 (01:10:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:10:34):
Well I was curious about Sam Worthington because I was like,
had he done something.

Speaker 2 (01:10:39):
Before this or he your salvation before this?

Speaker 1 (01:10:42):
Well it came out the same year. That's right, So
it wasn't like like this, and this was probably shot,
I imagine years before he.

Speaker 2 (01:10:51):
Got Terminator off off of James Cameron's recommendation.

Speaker 1 (01:10:56):
Okay, and then he did Clash to the Titans the
next year, and I'm sure that was off of like
Avatar heat. So this was like kind of a breakout
for him.

Speaker 2 (01:11:03):
Yes, yeah, yeah, and I mean he, you know, he,
I mean, he's never stopped working. He's had a pretty
good run. But I mean, you know, he did a
movie called Sabotage opposite Arnold Schwartzenegger, which what's his name,
David David Air directed, which isn't the worst movie. Actually,
I think you might enjoy that.

Speaker 1 (01:11:22):
Okay, Oh yeah, here on is i NDV.

Speaker 2 (01:11:26):
But this this Christmas if you remember, because this came
out and right around the same time with Sherlock Holmes
the first the Robert Downey one, and both ended up
doing pretty well. And you know, this is one of
those rising tide lifts all boat situations, because you know,
it's not like one hit movie is going to swallowp
all the oxygen. People are going to go to movies,

(01:11:48):
they'll see trailers for other movies and they'll come back, like,
I mean, it's a good movie going environment for all
the studios. And and the fact that this movie just
played and played I think a lot well into twenty ten,
you know, I think a lot of other films ended
up benefiting as a result of that.

Speaker 1 (01:12:08):
Yeah. Well, and this was actually helped me. Remember, I mean,
so this movie, it was a big deal that this
was in three D. It's like, if you're going to
see it, you got to see it in three D.
And then there was that whole run for a while
where movies are either shot in three D or converted
to three D.

Speaker 2 (01:12:26):
Yeah, everyone and their cousin was like, oh, let's just
you know, legally blonde three let's put that in three
D or whatever. I mean, you know, like things that
it's not even remotely appropriate. And most of the post
produced three D was was disastrous. Yeah, you know, you
mentioned Clash of the Titans. Unfortunately, Clash of the Titans

(01:12:47):
has become the poster child for lousy post produced three D.
That process has been refined since then. It's gotten a
lot better. But unfortunately there was a bit of a
stink because of those early you know, because you had
Tim Burton's Allis in Wonderland. Yeah, right, that's what happened

(01:13:09):
because this was three D, and then Alison's Alison in
Wonderland very shortly, also in three D, did very well,
and so the studios are like, oh shit, there's you know,
people just showing up for three D movies. And so
you had Clashes the Titans, you had Avatar, the other Avatar,
the last Airbender movie. Oh was that okay, which is
the following summer summer of twenty ten, and so that

(01:13:30):
was post produced three D and my I remember watching
that in three D and like my eyes were going
to rip themselves inside out.

Speaker 1 (01:13:38):
Oh really it was.

Speaker 3 (01:13:40):
It was ghastly Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:13:42):
You know, again, this is fifteen years ago, so the
process has been substantially improved where I don't think you
can really tell the difference anymore. Right, But at the time,
I remember Jim Cameron being like, look, I shot it
with three D cameras, I'm doing it for real, And
he was sort of, you know, snickering at all everyone
trying to you know, grab his coat tails, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:14:04):
Yeah, but I mean it makes a lot of sense
studios wanting to do that because you can charge more
per ticket.

Speaker 2 (01:14:12):
Yeah, so between IMAX and three D, I mean there
there's a decent chunk of why this movie did as
well as it did.

Speaker 1 (01:14:19):
Yeah, which is funny because yeah, Cameron's got his three
D and Christopher Nolan, you know, it's such a stand
for IMAX.

Speaker 3 (01:14:26):
You know, they got there. It's interesting that they each have.

Speaker 2 (01:14:29):
What they believe is the Yeah, Nolan is like anti
three D.

Speaker 3 (01:14:34):
Oh is he really?

Speaker 2 (01:14:35):
Oh yeah, he's not. He's not a fan.

Speaker 1 (01:14:37):
I don't really love it either, to be honest, I
have had good experiences with it, but by and large
I don't prefer it.

Speaker 2 (01:14:43):
I think, by and large, for me, the Avatar movies
are it.

Speaker 1 (01:14:48):
Yeah, you know, yeah, I remember I saw oh wow,
it just completely slipped my mind. Oh Titanic, okay, and
I was like, this is incredible, okay, and that's clearly
post produced three D post produced. But it looked amazing,

(01:15:09):
truly immersive, and you know when anytime you're on the water,
it did this crazy thing where I really felt like
I was on the surface of the water looking at things,
you know, in front of me. It was if it
came back in theaters, I would, without question go see
it again because it was such a cool experience. And
then Jaws actually when it came out of going three D,

(01:15:30):
it was really well done. I you know, it's I
think those things are at their best when they're not
calling attention to themselves, right, you know, and they're just
you almost forget about it. You just are experiencing a
dimensionality in front of you. You know, people crossing in
front of you, or trees crossing in front of you
as people are walking. Right, It's pretty cool.

Speaker 2 (01:15:52):
Yeah, I mean, I mean old timey three D. I'm
talking like fifties, sixties, you know, when it when the
first time it was a fad, you know that that
they would do like here's a pizza and it's like
shoving it at the screen, and it's like, well, that's
not how life works, you know, right right, you just
sort of moved through life, and that's you know, I
think there's a naturalism that certainly these films evoke with

(01:16:15):
regards to the three D.

Speaker 1 (01:16:16):
You know, well, and there's so many like this scene
we're watching right now, is it let me refer to you,
is it an e klon? Is that what he's taming here?

Speaker 2 (01:16:25):
I will go ahead and say, maybe.

Speaker 1 (01:16:29):
Okay, this is one of the scenes that I remember
most from this movie. It's very cool where he's brought
up and they're like, okay, well you got to get
your horse, so to speak. And the way to do
that is you kind of have to tame it and
you have to make a connection and then you're bonded
for life, you know, and just how dangerous it is.
And then once it works, the way that he connects

(01:16:50):
with the creature and the way they're soaring through the
air with all the mountains floating in the background. I mean,
I think this was for me when I think of
this movie. This is one of the scenes I remember,
and I can imagine being like, yeah, i'd want to
see is in three D. I want to be on
that cliff's edge and then soar with that creature.

Speaker 2 (01:17:06):
Right, I mean, the whole concept of you know, your
little your little tail doo dad and bonding with the
thing and then you create this this bond with the animal.
I mean, it's it's so uh you know, it's so nutty,
you know. Yeah, I mean it's like nutty in a

(01:17:27):
cool way, right, Like like it's like, yah know who
thinks of this stuff? You know?

Speaker 1 (01:17:33):
I just feel like i'd be worried about it, like
getting it dirty, you know, just it was like something
that shouldn't be exposed. Yeah. Yeah, Like if someone were
to tell me, like, hey, read my script and it
had that component in it, I'd be like, uh, I
don't know, like let me wrap my head around that.

(01:17:54):
But then when you watch it and cameraon executes it,
You're like, yeah, I still, like you said, nutty is
a great word for it. But it's like, yeah, but
I get it kind of works. I like the idea
of the way that they I mean because like you said,
this movie is all about connection with the earth and with creatures. Oh.
We we were talking over it, but I wanted to
call it that scene where that creature earlier that's sort

(01:18:15):
of like scary dog thing is you know, following Jake
and then Terry save his life and she's like, oh, thanks,
glad you killed that thing and she's like this is
a bad thing, Like this is you know like that.
I love that. I love I don't know, Yeah, I
like that ethos in this movie, you know, the respect

(01:18:36):
for everything. Even when we kill something and it's providing
us food, we thank it, you know. Kind of So
I don't know the connection thing feels like a nice
extension of that, a nice component of like, no, like
you don't just ride this creature, like you truly connect
with one another.

Speaker 2 (01:18:51):
Right, it becomes an extension of yourself.

Speaker 1 (01:18:55):
Yeah, and it's funny then you know where he'll he'll
tell it, you know, like bank left and so they're
connect Banks left. Yeah, you can steer it that way.

Speaker 2 (01:19:03):
I think that, you know, going back to what we
were talking about earlier, right, like the the conversation about Oh,
it's it's so much like this other thing or that
other thing, like it misses, it misses what it's going
to mean for the people who are entering with this.
And you know, it's kind it's kind of like you
look at Star Wars. It's not like Star Wars was

(01:19:24):
wholly original Star Wars. Yeah, yeah, self a pastiche of
Flashcoordon and Buck Rogers and all that stuff, all of
all of George Lucas's influences and he put them into
a queens and art and he got, you know, something
some extraordinary. Well, Cameron's doing the same thing, you know,
mm hmm. I mean shit, even Terminator is same, right,
I mean, that's that's Oh's inspiration to t X, Y,

(01:19:46):
and Z things, and he kind of shone a new
light on it absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:19:51):
I mean he I was reading some interviews and he
said that his inspiration was every single science fiction book
he read as a kid, and he name checked John Carter.

Speaker 2 (01:19:59):
One hundred percent. I mean, this is so John Carter,
you know.

Speaker 1 (01:20:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:20:02):
And the problem is it did John Carter better than
John Carter, which is why John Carter is now unfortunately
thought of as John Carter.

Speaker 1 (01:20:11):
Yeah. Yeah, well, and it's you know, there was a
lot of criticisms too, saying like, oh, he just remade
you know, friend Guali or Pocahontas. But he himself I
actually double check this to see if he actually said this,
but he's like, oh no, yeah, and Terry's Pocahontas.

Speaker 2 (01:20:25):
Yeah, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:20:26):
And so you know, you take the things.

Speaker 1 (01:20:29):
And but you know what I find interesting about the
Hole Lucas thing with Star Wars being inspired by all
the things he loved as a kid. I've brought this
up many, many times. But the things he loved as
a kid we're not super familiar with, that's right, Like
we just know his riff on it. But the things
that we were passionate about as kids have never gone away,

(01:20:50):
like just the way that culture has changed through maybe VCRs.
You know, we're able to watch these things more easily,
and Hollywood is like allergic to new ideas, so they
just keep remaking the things that already exist. So if
you were then trying to try to make your pastiche
on Star Wars, which is like almost fifty years old,

(01:21:10):
because it's still at the forefront of you know, public consciousness,
they'd be like, well, you're just riffing on Star Wars.
You'd be like, well, yeah, but I mean, well Lucas
did it.

Speaker 3 (01:21:17):
No one got mad at him.

Speaker 2 (01:21:18):
You know.

Speaker 3 (01:21:19):
Is that kind of an interesting phenomenon?

Speaker 2 (01:21:22):
It is, And it's I mean, I would say it's
a depressing phenomenon honestly, you know, yeah, because we live
in a world where we're talking about a potential Matrix
five instead of the next matrix, and you know, we'll
never have that experience of what it was like in

(01:21:44):
April of ninety nine watching the Matrix for the first
time and not knowing what the hell we were watching
and just being enveloved by it. Yeah, or watching the
first Avatar ten years after that, or you know, you
know what I mean, like the thrill of the new.
Uh huh, because because studios don't want the thrill of

(01:22:04):
the new, because new means untested mm hmmm, and they don't.

Speaker 1 (01:22:09):
And when these things cost as much as they do,
he want are right.

Speaker 2 (01:22:14):
And and the unfortunate uh you know. Outgrowth of that is,
you know, just to keep it in the Star Wars
neighborhood for a second. I think that's what leads to
the sequel trilogy being I think you and I would
both agree maybe less than it could have been m hm,
because it was beset by by safe choices and not

(01:22:35):
wanting to second guess.

Speaker 1 (01:22:37):
You know, yeah, give them what we know they like exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:22:41):
And that's one thing you can say like or dislike.
Lucas with the prequels was like, this is what I
want mm hmm, you know, like like or dislike. And
you know, eventually it seems like the world sort of
came around to him where he was, you know, right

(01:23:02):
right now, this too, this scene right here, we back
in O nine. I'm like, okay, so uh literally, I
was like, so he's going to have like a little
he's going to lose the trust of the people, and
then he's gonna ride the giant Lenoptricks and that's how
he's gonna win their their their trust back, and he's
going to become the chosen one.

Speaker 1 (01:23:21):
You know, like right right right.

Speaker 2 (01:23:23):
So I'm just sort of counting down, you know, I'm
checking the boxes, like what what beats the story has
to has to cycle through, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:23:30):
Yeah. Yeah, although it is satisfying, it still feels satisfying.
Although we don't really see him tame it, we just
see him approach it and then show up on it.

Speaker 2 (01:23:39):
That I So I had that thought. Yeah, I mean
I was going to bring it up later, but yeah,
one of the weirdest decisions. I'm like, why not make
the early taming scene maybe slightly less detailed and then
demonstrate the challenge of trying to tame the giant leannoptrics later? Yeah,

(01:24:01):
that would make that a sequence, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:24:04):
Yeah, that's that's a tough decision because then you would
lose the discovery and magic of that moment, which I
said was like one of my most memorable scenes in
the movie for me.

Speaker 2 (01:24:16):
Well, like, I'm not saying cut it entirely, I'm saying
I'm saying show it as slightly challenging and then and
then show the latter sequence.

Speaker 1 (01:24:25):
As much more possible.

Speaker 2 (01:24:27):
Yeah, you know, and and he doesn't have the benefit
of anybody telling him what to do, and he has
to do it all on his own. Yeah. I do
like all this business where, you know, he's starting to
grapple with the moral question of what he's doing, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:24:42):
Yeah, yeah, I mean it's one thing to go in
there and just feel sort of like a tourist, but
you're you're developing these real relationships and emotional connections with
people when you went in knowing you weren't in for
the long haul. Oh there's the American flag again in
the background.

Speaker 2 (01:24:59):
Yeah, that's clever.

Speaker 1 (01:25:00):
That's very clever. I love this, like Cameron Steely Blue too.

Speaker 2 (01:25:06):
This is the like whenever we're in in the base,
we get these very traditionally James Cameron looking shots, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:25:13):
Yeah, yeah, Yeah. It's a weird time to bring it
up because we're watching a full live action scene here,
But I might forget. I saw this fact earlier. I
was as they were writing those creatures and it looked unbelievable,
and the waterfalls and the floating rocks. I read that
some of the scenes took like forty seven hours to

(01:25:36):
render Holy which made me think like, oh yeah, like
when I render this podcast, like especially like a longer
one like this, it's going to be about two and
a half hours.

Speaker 3 (01:25:46):
Like takes a bit of time.

Speaker 2 (01:25:48):
But you think.

Speaker 1 (01:25:49):
About like one frame with all that light and all
the detail and all the you know, just one frame. Yeah,
oh the size that this movie take up, Like you
I just don't even think about the logistics of it
and the server farms and everything they must you know,
and what if something crashes and it's just even.

Speaker 2 (01:26:09):
Imagine, Oh my god.

Speaker 3 (01:26:11):
Yeah, I wouldn't want to be it on this film.
That's what I'm trying to say.

Speaker 2 (01:26:15):
You know. I remember Stephen laying in one point talking
about how he would have liked to play cable.

Speaker 1 (01:26:20):
Mm hm, I can.

Speaker 2 (01:26:21):
See that, right, And you just see him here You're like,
oh yeah, I can, I can. I can totally see that. Yeah, totally.
So if I'm in this position, they come to me,
they're like, we need you to do this, uh man,
I would betray those NAVI so hard.

Speaker 1 (01:26:41):
I'd just be because because the legs.

Speaker 2 (01:26:44):
Oh yeah, I want my legs. I'd be I'd be
I'd be betraying him even after I had my legs.
I just just just just for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:26:51):
Well, you know what's funny, actually what they could have
done here is he's you know, like, hey, man, like,
don't get lost in the weeds here, like you know,
you got a mission. I just got your legs approve.
And then it suddenly cuts now to him having this
like war pain apply and he's going to be brought
into the tribe. It feels like it'd be more realistic
for her to be doing this and her feeling great
about it and him like uh oh.

Speaker 2 (01:27:18):
Nah, he's like pulling his imaginary or like his little necklace.

Speaker 1 (01:27:23):
Yeah, she's like, you know, like clearly in love with him,
and her parents are all in on it, and.

Speaker 2 (01:27:30):
Yeah, and of course, Brian, I would not actually betray
the nobby. My god, you believed me, didn't you People
listening to this show being like cancel their Patreon, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:27:51):
But it would be like difficult because I would like
to go back to like indoor plumbing at some point, sure,
you know what I mean, But like I don't want
to betray them either, Like I I'm not sure it
would be hard, like.

Speaker 3 (01:28:06):
Circumstances kind of force them into.

Speaker 2 (01:28:09):
Well, I don't know, Brian, I mean, bounce us off.

Speaker 1 (01:28:12):
Ya.

Speaker 2 (01:28:13):
Sure, indoor plumbing has its pluses, But on the other hand,
just pain in the woods whenever you feel like it,
wherever you feel like it.

Speaker 3 (01:28:21):
It's not the peing I have a problem with.

Speaker 2 (01:28:23):
Okay, Touchet.

Speaker 1 (01:28:27):
And who says I don't do that now? Anyway, Moving
on the prayer tree, I like this. I think this
is very beautiful. Actually, I think the tree looks beautiful,
but I love the idea again. I mean, as long
as you're gonna have these little tendrils you know of

(01:28:49):
yours that can connect to these things connecting to this
you know tree that has all the voices of the ancestors,
It's it's pretty beautiful.

Speaker 2 (01:28:58):
Well. I like that we create a framework to allow
for the mystical and sort of supernatural that that has
like a weirdly grounded framing, you know what I mean,
you know, And I think I think that manifests in
ways that are very effective, especially in the later films.
I mean, I said before you know to me in

(01:29:18):
the second film, you know, I don't remember much about it,
but I remember the end where Jake connects with you know,
the whatever, the the underwater you know, version of a
or whatever, and he sees his son who died as
a little boy. I remember watching that. That's in the

(01:29:39):
second one. Yeah, I wouldn't be spoiling the third one,
but that's at the end of the second one, and
I remember getting very emotional watching that.

Speaker 1 (01:29:45):
You know, you know, I mean, you're making me remember,
you know, like you were saying, people watch this movie.
It was reported that a lot of people, yeah, felt this.

Speaker 2 (01:29:55):
But look at that right there that you see Zoe's
Heldana's face right.

Speaker 3 (01:29:59):
Oh, she's so emotive.

Speaker 1 (01:30:01):
I think she's the most, Like I said, I think
her character is the best realized. Yeah, it looks like
you said, it looks like like her.

Speaker 3 (01:30:11):
It's very emotive.

Speaker 1 (01:30:12):
But Worthington's is I don't know it's good, but sorry,
it sounds like I'm claning on him. I just wish
they all felt as distinctive and a motive as she does.
And I don't do you know.

Speaker 2 (01:30:24):
You know what would be funny right here is we
got this great like three D amazing four case goes
and then we cut to like grainy hand crank footage
of like a train entering a tunnel like a rocket
taking off, like.

Speaker 3 (01:30:39):
An oil drill in the desert, a little pump or whatever.

Speaker 2 (01:30:42):
Yeah, sorry you were saying no, but again, well he
says it here.

Speaker 1 (01:30:50):
But yeah, as they're like starting to like make love
or whatever, it would be like again him like, but
he does it in a much more tactful way where
he wakes up in his pod. It's like what am
I doing? Yeah, which, uh yeah, oh this. I was
gonna say something, but now I'm like caught up in
the movie this. I like this. I love this whole
conceit here like waking up and it's like, really, you know,

(01:31:13):
they share this intimate moment, but then this like thrashing
machine or thresher or whatever, like coming through and and
him him not being in the pot. I remember loving
that the first time I saw it, Like the whole idea, Yeah,
what a great idea, you know, if you're going to
play with it. The fact that he's not always present
in that body, right, and when she needs him to move,

(01:31:33):
he's not there. So Okay, we were talking about how,
you know, we have some sort of like mixed dish
probably feelings on this movie.

Speaker 2 (01:31:43):
Yeah, but I was honestly from this point to the end.
It it always is cracking for me.

Speaker 1 (01:31:49):
You were just you just took it right out of
my mouth, like so yeah. Well, unfortunately, just due to
the week that I had, I had to split this up,
which I didn't want to do, but I did. And
the first half of the movie I was like, yeah, no,
I remember, this is really beautiful and innovative, and you know,
I understand why these tropes connect. But yes, from this
moment on, I'm like, this movie's really good, like it

(01:32:11):
really yeah, like he said, crackles, it connects, it works,
it's thrilling. Well and when real quick I did the tree.
That's what did it for me. When I saw the
tree go down after they had shared that moment and
we heard the ancestors' voices, I felt really genuinely sad
seeing that tree come down, and that was when I
was like, oh, I'm really connecting with this.

Speaker 2 (01:32:34):
You know. Well, well, James Cameron would say he did
his job then, right.

Speaker 1 (01:32:39):
Yeah, he would be like, no shit, it is Cameron, baby,
what do you think was gonna happen? Shut up?

Speaker 2 (01:32:50):
Probably what he said that sounds that sounds about about right. Yeah,
Jivanni were basis such a freaking dudeude. I love this.

Speaker 1 (01:33:01):
He's like chomping on food and he puts his one
finger on the like the joystick. It's so good. And
I mean obviously he's playing like yeah mustache spoiler, but
like he's playing it well yep, so do you have mouthful?

Speaker 2 (01:33:20):
See?

Speaker 1 (01:33:20):
He moved so good.

Speaker 2 (01:33:25):
Now, now you may not recognize Jake Sully in his
in his NAVI Avatar, but Colonel Korich has no problem.
He catches that ship right away.

Speaker 1 (01:33:37):
That is that is very true. I just like everything
about this. I think it's devastating watching the tree get
knocked over. I like that machine because it's very scary,
and I love the idea of him, like how do
he stopped at the thing while you don't? So you
go up and you damage its camera so I can't
see any longer.

Speaker 3 (01:33:56):
Right, that's good.

Speaker 1 (01:33:59):
And then of course, yeah, now you have all the
conflict right where he represents the outsiders and he has
to confess to like, well, yeah I knew they wanted
the thing under the tree. And then everybody hates you,
and you know we've been here before if you watch movies.
But like it, just but I I'll be.

Speaker 2 (01:34:17):
Darned if I didn't didn't feel it, well, that's the thing, right,
I mean it, at roughly this point in the runtime
of Dances with Wolves, you're like fully on board with
John Dunbar joining you know, the you know whatever whatever
the nation is that he ends up joining that in
that film, you know, like you're you're you're fully You're like, oh,

(01:34:41):
the American military, they're the bad guys, you know. And
so Cameron, I mean, the front end of the movie
is all just like laying that track very methodically to
get us here and here is the story. He clearly
was like really antsy to get us into, you know.

(01:35:01):
And we know that because because the second and third
film are just fully you know, we're fully not novefied
by then, you know, right, which.

Speaker 1 (01:35:14):
By the way, I meant to bring this up earlier
when Ribci first showed up. But unobtainium, Yeah, I haven't
really talked about that.

Speaker 2 (01:35:22):
It's a real term.

Speaker 3 (01:35:23):
It's a real term, and I think most people trip
over it, that's right.

Speaker 2 (01:35:29):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:35:29):
Actually I brought up watching this movie to my brother
and he went unobtainedingum, and I was like, yeah, like,
and I think the mistake Cameron made was not pointing
out that it's a real term that people use and
that maybe they cheekily decided to call this mineral that
and then it stuck, like one sentence would have explained that,

(01:35:52):
and then we'd understand. But if you don't understand that,
it's like a concept, you know, science fiction writers used
to use for like a magic mineral that you know,
you know, you get stuck on how silly it sounds,
and you're like, that's all James Cameron. He came up
with all this stuff, but he couldn't come up with

(01:36:13):
a better name for this mineral, like right, you know,
I think if he had let us in on the joke,
people wouldn't talk about it as much.

Speaker 2 (01:36:19):
I agree. I remember writing in my review at the
time like something to the fact of like, oh what
what mcguffinite was taking?

Speaker 3 (01:36:26):
Yea, yeah, yeah, yeah exactly. Yeah, I mean I think
that's how it sounds to everyone.

Speaker 2 (01:36:31):
Yeah yeah, but it is an actual term used by
engineers and whatnot.

Speaker 1 (01:36:36):
Yeah, it describes a I just pulled it up so
I could say it more clearly, a material that is
perfect for an application but does not exist.

Speaker 3 (01:36:44):
So like, yeah, mcguffin, mcguffinite that's good.

Speaker 1 (01:36:53):
Yeah, or here says sci fi enthusiasts use it for
any fictional substance that is needed to build a certain
device that is crucial to the plot.

Speaker 2 (01:37:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:37:05):
Yeah, everybody used inother movies. It's been in other books
and things.

Speaker 2 (01:37:09):
But yeah, why don't you You guys, you make your
own avatar and have have makeed the you know, three
billion dollars and called the substance whatever you want right
right there?

Speaker 1 (01:37:24):
Oh boy, popping the notes. I love the wheel his
meat out of here. He has like such a funny line.
So I remember earlier he says something about any shaved tail, Louis.
I was like, shaved tail Louis. So I actually googled

(01:37:46):
it because I was curious. And it has to do
with like the cavalry and when people were like, you know,
lower ranking soldiers, they would shave the tail their horses,
so you knew it's almost like having the you know,
beware a driving student stick around a ares.

Speaker 2 (01:38:03):
I had no idea. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:38:08):
I do love his look too, like the claw marks
on the side.

Speaker 1 (01:38:11):
Of his head.

Speaker 2 (01:38:11):
Oh that's great.

Speaker 1 (01:38:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's great.

Speaker 2 (01:38:13):
Well, and he even says, like, now that I think
about it, is it in this version or the a
special edition, but like he he could have got it fixed,
but he's like, he likes the way it looks.

Speaker 3 (01:38:24):
Yeah no, that's in the theological version.

Speaker 2 (01:38:27):
Okay. I'm like, yeah, if I had cool, like a
cool scar, i'd probably keep it.

Speaker 1 (01:38:31):
Uh huh uh huh. He's got to be cool looking
the obviously exactly. Yes, it just so happens. It's pretty cool.
But that was what his point he was making was
that he underestimated the planet and that was the last
time he'll ever do that.

Speaker 2 (01:38:44):
Yeah, that's right, that's right. Yeah, gotta gotta be like Quorich, Brian,
be like Kortch.

Speaker 3 (01:38:53):
It's just funny too, Like the scientists like the trees.

Speaker 1 (01:38:56):
It's a network, it's connected to their deity. And Rebece
is like who can hairs? He's so good at doing
what he is at, you know, like whatever executive. Yeah no,
there's the idea.

Speaker 3 (01:39:13):
What the hell have you been smoking?

Speaker 2 (01:39:14):
Ha ha?

Speaker 1 (01:39:18):
That's good.

Speaker 2 (01:39:20):
But I mean what you know what Grace is saying,
you know, the wealth of this world isn't in the ground,
it's all around us. I mean, that's that's our world,
you know, and we don't value it. You know, it
is remarkable. And we look at what's going on right
now where you know, the AI industry is built on
the pillage of our natural resources. I mean, this is

(01:39:42):
truly a fight for the future that is happening right now.
Right where's our Jake Sully, God, damn it, where's our
where's our tour motto? Or whatever?

Speaker 1 (01:39:59):
But yeah, you know, get like a line or two
where they describe Earth and they say that there's no
green left. Yeah, right, But I mean, I don't know,
maybe we don't need to see it, but it there's
something you know, Yeah, I guess poetic or about it
right where we've we've run out of green. We ran

(01:40:19):
our green into the ground. So now we're going to
a poor, beautiful planet and we're gonna do the same
thing there.

Speaker 2 (01:40:27):
Right And and you know, I mean I think it's
worth you know, thinking about how for all of the
sort of tropiness of this story. And you know, we've
seen these these patterns before. It's like whose side does
the story put us on? Right? It's not the colonizers,

(01:40:49):
you know, And that speaks to something basic about like
we have it all of us, an inherent recognition of
like what is right and what is wrong?

Speaker 1 (01:40:58):
You know, Yeah, and then stories like this can you know, illuminate,
like maybe you can, even in the real world, start
to lose sight of certain things just because of reasons.

Speaker 3 (01:41:15):
I mean this is like like, um, you.

Speaker 2 (01:41:17):
Know how many how many people planted a tree because
of watching Avatar? You know, I don't know that stuff matters,
you know, right.

Speaker 1 (01:41:27):
Yeah, that's what good science fiction can do though, right,
Like it heightens everything, but then it helps it.

Speaker 3 (01:41:31):
Like wait a minute, that reminds.

Speaker 2 (01:41:32):
Me of I mean, look, I remember watching Planet of
the Apes as a little kid, and that that film.
I mean, you know you don't. I don't need to
tell you this, but it had a very profound impact
on me in terms of how we treat animals and
how we think of our role and all this, you know,
at a very young age for me, and so truly,

(01:41:55):
like when I always I always imagine the ten year
old watching something like this and how is it playing
for them?

Speaker 1 (01:42:03):
Mm hm, you know, I like this moment, by the way,
I didn't remember this, and it's not like they really
dig into it, but where Ribisi's like, look, we need
the thing under the tree, so we're gonna do the
thing we gotta do. But then they're Sigourney Weaver and
Worthington are like, like, there's people there, there's like kids there,
like them trying to explain how important it is means

(01:42:23):
nothing to this executive. But when they're like there's kids, women, children,
like you're gonna kill women and children. And he has
this moment like one hour. Yeah, like I like that
at least a moment of humanity. Yeah, and he'll he'll
do it even if those people don't move. He'll do
it in an hour, I'm sure. But yeah, I kind
of liked that, and I realize also you just kind

(01:42:44):
of need it for the story to get him back
out there.

Speaker 3 (01:42:46):
But like, I don't know, it resonated with me this time.

Speaker 2 (01:42:49):
Well, yeah, I know I agree with that, and I
also think, you know, partly like you know, Colonel Korich
is our Johnny mustache twirlers.

Speaker 3 (01:42:55):
Yes, he will not be moved.

Speaker 2 (01:42:57):
Yeah, and we only need one of him, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:43:00):
Yeah, that's a good point.

Speaker 2 (01:43:01):
Yeah, this moment, I mean, honestly, it it plays. Look
at her face. You know, it's remarkable how well the
cgi and the performance intermingle. For just look at that,
Look at it. Look at it, look at the emotions
all playing on her face. Yeah, extraordinary.

Speaker 1 (01:43:21):
Yeah, I remember this even from the first time I
watched it, like the how how much it hurt to
watch her anguish?

Speaker 2 (01:43:32):
Yeah, after I betrayed those Nave, I wouldn't feel a thing, Brian,
I'll tell you not me. Oh no, they're blue and weird.

(01:43:52):
This this bit bit too, actually, I think is very
interesting where you know, the they get pulled out of
their their avatar bodies, right, so they're just you know,
it's just the the avatars, and yet the Nave carry
those avatars with them mm hmm. Like we see a
scene later where they're they're taking graces, you know, like

(01:44:14):
she's being carried in like a in like a you know,
in a what are you you know, uh, like a
stretcher kind of thing. And I'm like, to me, like
the respect they have even then, m right, like yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:44:34):
All this stuff is i mean, visually incredible, but it's
it's it's beautiful.

Speaker 1 (01:44:41):
And devastating the destruction, you know, Like I I I
thinking about that nothing in the frame is real, right,
and it looks so real is amazing, but also like
I'm I'm like you said the rest of this movie.
I'm if if I was having moments where I was
having a hard time plugging in earlier, maybe by certain

(01:45:02):
things like I am completely locked in now and it
really breaks my heart washing them destroy this tree.

Speaker 2 (01:45:10):
Yeah, I think in terms of I mean, they've established
the emotional stakes, but I was thinking in terms of
creating something immersive. One thing Cameron does it's very smart,
is I mean, he takes advantage of what he can
do with his camera and this and that, but he
doesn't he shoots it as if it's a real environment. Right, Yes,
So the camera isn't swooping in and out and doing

(01:45:32):
stuff that's very obviously phony. Yes, because that's something I
see a lot of filmmakers do and it pisses me off.

Speaker 1 (01:45:39):
I know, I know we've talked about this because yes,
me too. I'm like, if when you're moving the camera
in a way that a camera can't move. Now, to
be fair, I've enjoyed it in the past in some
like older David Fincher movies, like it felt like a novelty,
like Fight Club or like Panic Room when the camera
goes through the coffee pot or whatever. Right, right, right,
But yeah, when you're you're doing like action sequences and

(01:46:00):
the camera's like swooping down and up and through this
and whatever, then it feels like a video game. It
doesn't feel tethered to any sort of reality, that's right,
And so then I don't care because then I'm like,
nothing's at stake that I'm witnessing here, right, you know?
And so yeah, I think you know, Cameron does like
you said, he does it so well here where he's

(01:46:21):
putting the camera even though there is no camera where
only a camera could go. And I remember Christopher Nolan
talking about that with Interstellar, when he was doing a
lot of visual effects. He was like, I made it
look like the camera was attached to the wing of
the spacecraft because that's what we're used to seeing from
real footage to spacecraft. So in your brain you're like,
I'm looking at a real spacecraft, and I think that's

(01:46:41):
that's what the greats, that's how they think.

Speaker 2 (01:46:44):
Yeah, you know, that was something the old not the old,
the the reboot of Battlestar Galactica, which is itself kind
of old now because it's like twenty plus years. But
but Ronald D. Moore, he talked about how when they
were doing their the external like space battle footage that
theypproached it like if if there was a news photographer
in space, how what would you be seeing? You know?

(01:47:07):
And and camera does something very similar where like you know,
the camera there will be kind of a zoom in,
but it's as if somebody's filming it, you know. And
and it was like documentary style or documentary style. Yeah,
and and I think that.

Speaker 1 (01:47:22):
Helps a lot, you know, I agree, I agree, And
then I.

Speaker 2 (01:47:26):
Feel like that I love I love this bit right
here though, just her her heartbreak as she's like, just help.

Speaker 3 (01:47:33):
Us, you know, yeah, yes, yes, yeah, yeah h.

Speaker 1 (01:47:41):
They have to depend on them in some way because
they know, you know those people, they know those people,
and they think there's there's something so sad about watching
them with their bows and arrows shooting at the ships
and you just see the arrows just you know, you
not connecting.

Speaker 3 (01:48:00):
Just think think thing thin ting off of the ships.

Speaker 2 (01:48:03):
I mean actually, in this moment for Michelle Rodriguez, I
loved that where she's like I didn't sign up for
this shit, you know, because because in every scenario like this,
and unfortunately this is not unique to science fiction movies
set on other planets. You know, this is this is
reflective of things humans have done to other humans. But
there are always people who say, no, this is not right.

(01:48:26):
You know, there have to be you know.

Speaker 1 (01:48:29):
Yeah, And it's one of those things too where you know,
sometimes they get recognized and you think like, wow, you're
a hero, and they get recognized as a hero and
some people don't. But like both of those people before
they knew how that what the outcome would be, made
the hard decision in the moment, and that's amazing.

Speaker 2 (01:48:47):
Look that right there, what an evil sob as Corus
is sipping his coffee, you know, you just want to
see him get his upens for that, you know. Yeah,
I think I mentioned this to you before. But in
Zotopia too, which which you know, I just came out
a few weeks ago. As recording this, this is one
line that I just love where Judy Hopps's character she

(01:49:07):
says the world will never get better if no one
is brave enough to do the right thing. And man,
we need that, you know. Yeah, yeah, look at this.
That's that's horrifying.

Speaker 1 (01:49:24):
Yeah, well, and speak again. I mean I'm sure none
of this is real. Yeah, and we're you know, I
always talk about it. It really bothers me when you
don't feel the heft. I feel it here. Yeah, I
think this tree coming down is conveyed really well way
the way it almost feels like slow motion in the beginning,
but then when it collides with the ground and yeah,

(01:49:45):
seeing all the columns sort of just splinter.

Speaker 2 (01:49:48):
Apart, right, I mean, I fundamentally this is this is
reflective of, you know, what happened to Native Americans in
this country and the way their their culture and tradition
and legacy were just ripped away from them because they

(01:50:12):
were savages, you know. And you know this is something
that humans do to humans. They do it a lot,
It's true.

Speaker 1 (01:50:21):
I mean, yeah, you think about you know, in this
movie man, all this is just so staggering.

Speaker 2 (01:50:28):
It looks so good.

Speaker 1 (01:50:30):
It's like, well, we want this and you're there, so
move ye yeah, you know, and it almost feels like
so we you know, mustache twarly. That's literally what happened
in this country. We want this, so move or we
will move you. Well, it's hard to Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:50:49):
There there's a documentary series that I'm actually watching right now.
It's called Kevin Costner's The West and it's worth watching. Actually,
you should check it out. It's it's it on my
my voodoo. You know. It's just looking at how the
West was settled, you know, and so much of we're talking,
you know, the eighteen hundreds nineteen hundreds is the the

(01:51:10):
Indian Wars, you know, as as just bit by bit
their lands are taken from them, for for for baubles
and broken promises, you know, right.

Speaker 1 (01:51:22):
And I mean it's obviously it's happened all over the
It's not unique to the United States.

Speaker 2 (01:51:28):
It's human history, yeah, exactly. Yeah, but that's that's the
purpose stories like this can serve, is to play them
out against a fantasy backdrop. But you know, the parallels
are are apparent enough where you can where you can
where you can plot them. You know, they killed West

(01:51:51):
study goddamn it.

Speaker 1 (01:51:53):
Yeah, this like, yeah, I really it was devastated seeing
that big chunk of wood sticking out of his stomach. Yeah,
that was something I wasn't expecting. Upon revisit. I thought
I was just going to go, oh, yeah, this movie
looks really cool and it's you know, it's kind of fun,
and I was surprised that I did get caught up in.

Speaker 3 (01:52:14):
It emotionally's Aldana. Man, she's incredible in this She.

Speaker 2 (01:52:23):
She really, I mean, especially in this film just MVP.

Speaker 3 (01:52:28):
Yeah, And you know, I think.

Speaker 1 (01:52:32):
A lot of people, you know, we know that this
is motion capture, right, so these aren't just characters that
have been created in a computer exclusively. It's you know,
these actors, they had these dots on their bodies. So
the movement is literally the actors, you know, and their
faces the dots and the close camera attached to their faces.

(01:52:53):
And you know, a lot of that's been poured it over,
but I think Cameron feels that there's still not enough
on understanding of how much it's like no, no, no, like,
don't think of these as animated characters, like these are performances.
And I feel like in this go around with the
third movie, he's really and I wonder if it's because
now he's kind of angling for like being performance awards,

(01:53:16):
performance awards, yeah, and just saying like no, no, no, like
these are not animated characters, like these are representations of
actors performances.

Speaker 2 (01:53:25):
Yeah. Well, I remember Andy serkis making that paint point,
ye know, early and often with regards to his portrayal
of variety of characters, but certainly Caesar in the in
the Apes trilogy where you know, again and again it
was like, this is digital makeup. You know, that was
how they viewed it, digital makeup. Yeah, you know. And

(01:53:48):
and it's tricky, right because because I think the problem
is that the discussion of the technology is so binary
that either the technology, the digital technology is being foregrounded
at the expense of the actors or vice versa. Yeah, sure, sure, right,

(01:54:13):
because like you don't have Caesar without Andy Serkis, but
you also don't have Caesar without wetted digital working their
asses up. You have a truly unique creation because of
both of those elements. And you know, I think it's
just it's I think I think lay people don't grasp

(01:54:34):
the nuances of how both of them are intertwined. It's
not just one or.

Speaker 1 (01:54:37):
The other, and it doesn't cancel out the amazingness of
either one.

Speaker 2 (01:54:43):
Yeah, you know, I mean clearly, like we said, I mean, look,
we can see zoe sld On, Zoey Saildan's face in
a in this alien you know, creature, right, and it's
it's because her performance is so clear to see. But
the effects folks did their thing too.

Speaker 1 (01:55:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:55:01):
By the way, I love how deleepe row here who
plays Max, he basically plays like the same guy a
year later in Inception.

Speaker 1 (01:55:08):
Yeah that's right.

Speaker 2 (01:55:09):
Yeah, he's kind of got his got his niche.

Speaker 1 (01:55:12):
Yeah, that's funny. But we're moving. I'm just thinking about
this in like a like a script level too. It's like,
we don't spend a lot of time wallowing in the cell.
It's literally they're in the cell and then they get
broken out. It's very very fast, but it works.

Speaker 2 (01:55:28):
I'm not missing it. So this too. I remember, you know, nine,
doing movie Math and being like, Okay, Grace is the
mentor figure, so she's gonna have to die. Jake can
claim his destiny on his own like I had. I
had tracked that probably a third of the way through.

Speaker 1 (01:55:50):
Oh wow, I don't remember thinking that much about it
as I was watching it. I was probably just I
don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:55:57):
I was doing a lot of I mean, I think
I just that sort of just how my brain works,
where I'm like, Okay, I think this is gonna happen,
and then either it does or it doesn't. You know.

Speaker 1 (01:56:04):
Yeah, sometimes sometimes I'll do that. I was actually when
the Tree went down. There's a little part of me
that was like, all right, that's the end of the
second act and then like we've lost everything, and then
we have to take what we've learned and rally again.
And you know, like I was thinking that a little bit.

Speaker 2 (01:56:17):
But yeah, I love this bit here where Korich steps out.
He didn't even have his gas mask on.

Speaker 1 (01:56:25):
Yes, I lost it too.

Speaker 2 (01:56:26):
You know, he's just like f these guys, man. Yeah,
I a bastard, just a rat bastard.

Speaker 1 (01:56:32):
This guy he would like wade into lava, yeah, just
to fire upon these people.

Speaker 2 (01:56:42):
It's funny too because Stephen laying in tombstone is such
a little weasel, right, and and it's like these are
like the poles of his performances. You know.

Speaker 1 (01:56:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:56:52):
He was in the two thousand Fugitive television series. He
was the one armed man.

Speaker 1 (01:56:57):
Oh interesting, Yeah, yeah, yeah, which you liked by the way, right, man,
Let's good show.

Speaker 2 (01:57:02):
Yeah, that that freaking show. I don't think I've ever
been as emotionally invested in a show not getting canceled
as the Futuitive. I think. I think when that show ended,
it kind of broke a little piece of me that
that never got fixed. No, like, let me put it
this way. I never before and ever since. I called
Les Moonvez's office and left a message saying, please don't cancel.

Speaker 3 (01:57:24):
A few really ye wow, that's how.

Speaker 2 (01:57:27):
Much I love that show.

Speaker 1 (01:57:28):
You know what I did once out here in California,
for some reason, McDonald's didn't have the shamrock shake, and
so I wrote McDonald's headquarters, Wow, okay, and I was like,
why don't any of the Los Angeles McDonald's have shamrock shakes?
And maybe they just weren't in my area. I don't know,
but by gum, now we have shamrock shakes.

Speaker 2 (01:57:47):
I'm just I will believe you made that happen.

Speaker 1 (01:57:51):
So it just shows where our passions lie. But yes,
I love Quartz. Yeah, bus out there doesn't care about
the atmosphere.

Speaker 2 (01:58:02):
And then then this guy runs out handsome his oxygen.
I see, Oh yeah, I guess I.

Speaker 3 (01:58:05):
Should be exactly just a yeah thanks and puts it on.

Speaker 1 (01:58:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:58:14):
You know, it was interesting.

Speaker 1 (01:58:15):
I was. I couldn't remember what critics thought of this,
and it's somewhere in the eighties, I think on Rotten Tomatoes,
and but I saw like everyone from like Ebert to
even Steven Spielberg. They compared the experience of watching this
to seeing Star Wars for the first Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:58:30):
Yeah, I remember Ebert saying that. Yeah yeah. I was like,
oh wow, I'm actually curious if my if they have
my review for it up on you know, Rotten Tomatoes
or whatever. Yeah, for for this one, yeah, yeah, I
don't have to look after this. That's always my favorite
thing when I pull up a movie on Voodoo and

(01:58:52):
I go to the reviews and I see your little blurb,
and sometimes it's very surprising, like oh wow, you know, yeah,
might quote from some random thing that I forgot I reviewed.

Speaker 1 (01:59:02):
Man, you have the defense to me the definitive review
of Rocky four, which is I actually, if you do
you remember it exactly? You basically say like how it's
like kind of a paradox, how the movie isn't very
good but it's also like very good.

Speaker 2 (01:59:20):
Yes, okay, yeah I do remember that.

Speaker 3 (01:59:22):
How do you say it perfectly?

Speaker 2 (01:59:23):
I'll have to find the quote.

Speaker 1 (01:59:25):
Yeah, it's like, how kind of movie that's like not
be that good but also be this good or something
like that. I'm like, yeah, Rocky four, No, it's interesting too.
I mean, this movie was nominated for Best Picture, you know,
for being such a that's right, you know, everybody, I

(01:59:47):
think could easily be like, oh yeah, the space Ferngully
and the Pocahontas and you know, it's very on the nose,
the exposition and the bad guys are very bad and whatever.
But this movie was nominated for Best Picture, and it
pitted James Cameron for Best Director against his ex wife
Catherine Bigelow for The hurt Locker.

Speaker 3 (02:00:06):
I think that was what I read. That was the
first time the next couple had competed against it.

Speaker 2 (02:00:11):
Wow. Well it was also like the biggest gap in
like budgets. It was like the most expensive movie and
the least expensive movie. You know. Oh that's interesting because
the hurt Locker costs like eight dollars and thirty seven
cents to make, you know, right, I mean it was
it was real like, I mean, not to diminish the craft,

(02:00:36):
but I mean they had to work close to the
chest to really get that movie made, you know, And
obviously James Cameron had a lot more resources at his disposal. Right,
So here's here's that. Here's that Rocky four quote. Yes, yes,
it's a bad movie, no doubt, but at the same time,
and somewhat paradoxically, it's also a great movie. Figure that

(02:00:56):
one out.

Speaker 1 (02:00:57):
Yeah, I mean, that's that's it. That's it should be
on the box. And I mean that in a good way,
because I love that movie.

Speaker 3 (02:01:09):
This sory tells the creatures like, got an idea, but
you're not gonna like it.

Speaker 1 (02:01:13):
Yeah, you know. I I'm just looking at all the
devastation here and then now we got this new creature
we're catching up with and talking about, like how Cameron
had this whole world realized. And sometimes when he talks
about it, he'll even name check creatures as if we

(02:01:33):
know what he's talking about, you know, And in some
ways it can kind of make it seem like what
a dork you know.

Speaker 2 (02:01:40):
See, But real quick, this right here, I mean we
just we just I was gonna say we montage passed.
We didn't even know YadA YadA, YadA, YadA passed to
be the most.

Speaker 3 (02:01:49):
Difficult thing he's done in the movie so far.

Speaker 2 (02:01:51):
That odd choice. Odd choice.

Speaker 1 (02:01:53):
Yeah, but no, I I you know what I mean.
And I've heard him talking about his rights rooms for
the sequels, and he's like, you know, we even sometimes
we just we don't even speak in English. Well we'll
say things in NAVI terms because we're just so immersed
and you're just like, that just sounds so weird, But
at the same time, that's exactly what I want to
the guy making these movies, right, That's why they work,

(02:02:15):
That's why they're so potent, that's why they're so rich,
you know.

Speaker 3 (02:02:18):
And and.

Speaker 1 (02:02:20):
I love that he's such a dork for these things,
Like he cares about this world so much. And even
when this came out, he was talking about he was
going to write novels, you know, filling in backstory, and
he's talked about all the sequels he's going to make.
And you know, I'm in the camp where that does
make me sad a little bit because I want to
see him do other things as well.

Speaker 3 (02:02:39):
Right, But I got to say, there's something.

Speaker 1 (02:02:41):
I really admire about him being all in on this.
He really cares about it, and it's going to show
up on screen.

Speaker 2 (02:02:49):
He clearly, you know, spent a lot of time and
sort of emotional energy building out this world in his mind.
And they're something exhilarating about that, you know, like to
have something that that that goes so deep and so
wide and it's like you just want to you want

(02:03:11):
to let everybody know all the things you've dreamed up,
you know. I think, you know, just taking it back
to Star Wars, like, I think that's the dilemma that
George Lucas ran into with the prequels, is like he
He's like, hey, here's more stories in this world that

(02:03:33):
I created, and it was you know, the reaction was like, yeah,
but it's not enough like those other things, so we
hate you.

Speaker 1 (02:03:42):
Right, yeah, And it really does feel like it affected him.

Speaker 2 (02:03:49):
I think. So, you know, I think I think Star
Wars fans killed Star Wars.

Speaker 1 (02:03:53):
You know, yeah, like he doesn't do as many interviews
or you know, get trying to get emotional or you know,
he keeps things close to the chest, it seems, but
every now and then something will slip where he's like, well,
people hated it.

Speaker 3 (02:04:05):
So I was like, all right, fine, you'll see.

Speaker 1 (02:04:08):
These moments where it reveals how he really feels and
you're like, oh, we hurt his feelings, Like that breaks
my heart. Yeah, I gave it. I think one of
the most special things the modern world has been able
to enjoy, and we crapped on him.

Speaker 2 (02:04:24):
It's just it's wasted on a bunch of piece of
shit assholes who are miserable and they want everybody else
to be miserable. That's how I feel. You don't have
to cosign that.

Speaker 3 (02:04:37):
But no, no, no no.

Speaker 1 (02:04:40):
By the way, so the turn here with the brother,
I do love this shot where he shows up on
like the Untamable Beast or it's been tamed five times
in their history since like the beginning of the dawn
of their history.

Speaker 2 (02:04:51):
I think what we needed was when he goes up
to climb the thing whatever, the camera just pans down
and there's just the bodies of all the people who
who died trying to try it.

Speaker 1 (02:05:02):
Oh yeah, right, Well I was gonna say I love
this shot where he so he he rides up on
this thing and everyone's like kneeling for him, and even
Terry is like damn, like I thought he was like before.
But then he goes up to the brother and he's
just like, what's up. And then the way that it's
framed is like you see the creature behind him, like

(02:05:23):
it's over the brother's shoulder on Jake, and then that
creature like the camera even like tilts up just a
little bit to capture the creature spreading its wings like
it's like a flex. I just love how the camera work,
even as like yeah, damn dude, like like how it
must be perceived by the brother, like well, what choice
do I have, Like yeah, okay, you're the guy.

Speaker 2 (02:05:45):
Yeah yeah, you don't mess around with that.

Speaker 3 (02:05:48):
It's just such a funny and I just love the
way that's captured.

Speaker 2 (02:05:54):
So I, I, uh, I just pulled up Rotten Tomatoes
as we're talking, and I found they have my review.
This is from from twenty nineteen. Oh, and I said
rewatching it with fresh eyes ten years later. The movies
pluses and minuses both rise into much starker relief. The
verdict it's fine. But here's what I find am using

(02:06:18):
more than my review whatever. Right underneath there is a
review by Ed Koch as in former mayor of New
York Ed Koch, What's who? I guess did movie reviews?
H and he says, in my opinion, Avatar has been
hyped beyond the point of forgiveness. We know where he
landed on.

Speaker 1 (02:06:34):
All right, all right, Oh, I was going to touch
on this moment a little earlier, but.

Speaker 3 (02:06:44):
You know, just I was started bringing up about how
people around the world.

Speaker 1 (02:06:48):
Some people are just getting really connected with this movie
and yeah, living it and stuff. And I think the reason,
like you brought up was, you know, he created this tangible,
beautiful place that like, why wouldn't you want to visit it?

Speaker 2 (02:07:01):
You know, right?

Speaker 1 (02:07:02):
Some people wish they could step into the film. And
I remember this moment where everyone is surrounded surrounding the
tree and they have their arms around each other and
they're kind of doing this like chant or prayer or something.
And I remember not thinking a ton about it, but
I remember my brother saying, he's like, I love that moment.

Speaker 3 (02:07:22):
I was like, oh, really, why is that?

Speaker 1 (02:07:23):
And he's like connection, you know, like community, like you know,
it's not like neighbors who have their fences up and
don't speak with one another, Like they've come together to
rally for this thing that they want to happen. And
he just really emotionally connected to the connectedness of all this.
And I was like, Oh, that's it's funny because I didn't.
I didn't at first, and now I think about it

(02:07:43):
because of him. But there's just so many things that
you could connect with in this movie.

Speaker 3 (02:07:49):
And I just find that.

Speaker 2 (02:07:50):
Well and if I can just add to that, I
think what Grace is saying just before she dies or
she's like, you know she's real, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, yes,
spirituality right, and you know that that sense of even
when we leave, you know where our loved ones can

(02:08:10):
still find us, you know. I mean, who wouldn't want that?
You know? I mean, yeah, I was reading sorry, just
real quick, I was reading an article this morning about
how you've got these AI companies that are saying, oh,
you know, like when when your grandparents die or whatever,
you can feed their personality into an AI and create
an AI avatar of them to communicate with. And I'm like,

(02:08:32):
what kind of fresh hellscape? Like what kind of messed
up dystopian e fing shit are we having to live
through every goddamn day.

Speaker 1 (02:08:41):
It's I mean it's literally a black mirror episode, I think, right.

Speaker 2 (02:08:45):
You know, and and you know, the the inverse of
that is this this idea of like, no, you get
to you know, you you move on from this plane,
but you're part of something bigger and and you know
your people can still find you, you know. I mean
that's something that we would all love to have, you know.

Speaker 1 (02:09:06):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I just don't feel like, I mean,
I think I'm saying something obvious, but I just don't
think that's healthy.

Speaker 2 (02:09:14):
I mean, it's not obviously, and yet we have people
falling in love with chat bots.

Speaker 1 (02:09:20):
I was gonna say, and it's gonna appeal to the
people that maybe have the tendency to get most lost
in those sorts of things. It's gonna be very unhealthy
for people. Well, yeah, and and and that sort of thing.

Speaker 2 (02:09:32):
You know, there's a lot being said these days about
the crisis of loneliness, right, And this is obviously something
that gets talked about a lot when it comes to
young men, right, But just more broadly, I think people
are lonely, right. And you know, I think about, like,
for me, I lead a pretty busy life and you know,

(02:09:53):
I got my kids and whatever. But for me, one
of the joys of any given week is me hopping
on Mike and chatting with you and just doing this
because we're just we're just shooting the ship. And how
much that means for me, just as like I get
to do something where I'm just having fun and shooting
the ship. And I think about, like, how many people

(02:10:13):
don't have that person they can just about whatever, Like
in I mean, granted we're not occupying the same space,
but you're a real human being as far as I know.
And how many people don't have that just there shoot
the ship friend, yeah sure, right yeah, And in the
absence of that, those needs manifest in weird, unhealthy ways.

Speaker 1 (02:10:35):
Right right. Yeah, Yeah, that's that's I feel very thankful
for it. And like I I appreciate all the people
who are listening right now and the people who reach
out to us and they continue the conversation.

Speaker 3 (02:10:50):
I mean, that's what I've always viewed this as.

Speaker 1 (02:10:52):
Like I always think when we watch a movie and
then you go to like a restaurant or a coffee
shop afterwards, and you just want to you got to
talk about it. It's not even it's not quite a review,
just a conversation about what you've just witnessed and all
the thoughts that are fresh in your mind. And I
love to join our conversation, you know. I love having
it with you, and I love that people join in
on it as well.

Speaker 2 (02:11:10):
Yeah, And I mean I mean that stuff matters, right,
because it's just it's just human connection. Yeah, And and
like I said, I mean, it's being drained out of
our day to day existence, and so then you have, hey,
you want you want, you know, cgi Grandma to tell
you she loves you. Here you go, and people people

(02:11:31):
are gonna be like, oh cool, all right.

Speaker 3 (02:11:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:11:35):
I don't know, man, I don't know. All I know
is twenty thirty years from now are not going to
look like anything I would have imagined even now. I
was gonna say, like ten twenty years ago. But no, seriously,
you know by the way that shot, when I think
about rendering and time and all that stuff, that shot
with all those flying creatures going over the crashing waves.

Speaker 2 (02:11:57):
Yeah, gorgeous. Well, and we're talking twenty nine, right, so
how long like now, render times have probably gotten shorter? Yeah, yeah,
So I mean how much time was spent just rendering
out so much of this movie? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (02:12:14):
Man, you think about sticking with James Caermon. I mean
that water tentacle in the Abyss. I was like, yeah, man,
that took like seven months to render, like who knows
in nineteen eighty nine.

Speaker 2 (02:12:22):
You know, isn't that amazing? Twenty years between the Abyss
and Avatar?

Speaker 3 (02:12:28):
That is amazing?

Speaker 2 (02:12:29):
Right?

Speaker 1 (02:12:31):
You know? I know the movie Babylon is a little polarizing. Yeah, yeah,
and she's all movie, yeah, Margot, Robbie, and yeah it
and rightfully so it's flawed, but there's a lot of thing.
There's enough things in there that resonated with me and
that I found kind of powerful that I can't help

(02:12:52):
but think of it like fondly and one of the
things that happened, I'm.

Speaker 3 (02:12:56):
Just gonna spoil it. Basically, there's like a guy.

Speaker 1 (02:12:59):
Who work in pictures and he goes through all these
things and you know, ups and downs, and you know,
even when you're having the worst day possible, it can
wind up with you getting the shot and that shot
could live forever and it was worth it, you know.
And the movie ends with him many many years later,
you know. I think this is like the thirties or
twenties or something like that. And then it ends and

(02:13:21):
I want to say the fifties or sixties, and he
walks into a movie theater like I'm gonna go watch
a movie, and he's an old man and he sits
down and I don't remember what movie it starts with,
but then it has this thing where it shows singing
in the rain, and then it shows the French connection,
and then it shows back to the future, and then
it shows Terminator too, and you see the you know,
the liquid metal visual effect, and then it goes to

(02:13:44):
Avatar and it's basically the movies, like they're the movies, Yeah, exactly,
but it's like they will continue going, they will continue
to innovate, and they will dazzle in different ways and
in ways that you know, like it'll never stop and
it will continue evolving and showing us things you never
could have imagined. And then it cuts back to him

(02:14:07):
in like nineteen fifty or sixty something. I don't know.
I just and I know that was itself was a
polarizing scene for people, but I found it beautiful.

Speaker 2 (02:14:17):
That's interesting. Now you say that was polarizing. Why that scene?

Speaker 1 (02:14:21):
It was weird? You know, because or weird? Did that
sum it up for you?

Speaker 2 (02:14:26):
Zachy?

Speaker 1 (02:14:26):
It was weird?

Speaker 2 (02:14:28):
I think it was.

Speaker 1 (02:14:29):
It just felt like incongruous or something with everything we'd
seen because it was a period movie and then all
of a sudden you're seeing images from Avatar and you're like, what, Like,
I think some people just didn't make the leap with
it because it's I don't have impression this sticks the
right word, but you know, it's like, like, what, he's
watching a movie and all of a sudden he's seeing

(02:14:49):
the future. I don't understand. Why are we watching all
these movies from the future, right, I don't know, but
it was to me, it was a feeling, and I
really loved that feeling because maybe I'm I'm very passionate
about these things.

Speaker 3 (02:15:00):
Yeah, and so I I don't know, I don't even
remember how I got on.

Speaker 1 (02:15:05):
This, but oh, because we're talking about the leap from
Abyss the Abyss, yeah, only in twenty years, and I remember,
I think that's what I loved about that sequence, was
just seeing the leaps made in seconds. Yeah, you know.
And and it's about the people. That movie is about
the people who make these things and how much they
mean to them. And there are a lot of work
and they could ruin your life and they could also

(02:15:25):
give you one of the most profound days of your life.
You know. Just it's all of it. It's all of
it at once, and I feel like that's what that
montage at the end is kind of encapsulating and how
they make people feel.

Speaker 2 (02:15:38):
Wow, that's really something. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:15:43):
But it also the same movie has literally has an
elephant crapping onto the screen. So there's that too, you know,
there is that too. It's a mixed bag now again
going into all the components that Cameron, I don't think
it was. It could have been calculated, but I feel

(02:16:03):
like all these things are probably important to him, but
just things for people to latch onto. Like we were
just talking about, we have this moment where he's very
confident he's tamed this untamable beast. He's about to go
into battle, but he also takes a moment to kneel
and pray. Yeah, you know, it kind of reminds me
of that moment I always love in The Phantom Menace
with a Qui Goun where it's like the heat of
battle with Darth Maul, but then when he's got one

(02:16:26):
moment where they're separated, he takes a moment to center himself.

Speaker 2 (02:16:30):
And Darth Maul is pacing back and forth like a
caged animal. Yes, yes, but difference be dartham.

Speaker 3 (02:16:36):
Light center and yeah, meditating and there's just something.

Speaker 1 (02:16:40):
Oh, by the way, I love that. Sorry, that moment
where the ships are taking off and one of them
hits a soldier out did you see that? It hits
him and knocks his hat off and you see him going.

Speaker 2 (02:16:49):
Ah, no, I missed that. I love that.

Speaker 3 (02:16:52):
I wonder if that was on purpose or it was
a happy accident.

Speaker 1 (02:16:55):
But it just adds a reality.

Speaker 2 (02:16:56):
To it, you know, as you're talking about about you know,
the that meditation, you know, I wonder if it would
have been worth delving into who Jake is. I mean,
you know that those deleted scenes or that, you know,
that get into his fundamental unhappiness with life on earth.

(02:17:17):
You know, they tease at it, but you know, the
idea that he finds what he finds among the nove
you know, the the piece that he finds, the love
that he finds. How is it different from who he
was before? Yeah? I don't feel like we get enough
of that, Like we get we get enough where sort

(02:17:39):
of like the broad strokes are pretty clear, you know,
and just sort of the the general uh you know,
movements of these types of stories, but you know a
little bit more.

Speaker 1 (02:17:49):
Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think it would make everything
even richer. Feel Yeah, those suits, this this tech.

Speaker 2 (02:18:02):
Is so great. I love it. The what the tech,
you know, the hardware and everything. Yeah, I'm kind of
surprised we don't have these by now. I'm gonna say,
I'm glad we don't have these right now.

Speaker 1 (02:18:15):
You know, you're right. I mean, obviously they could help it,
you know, I was gonna say they could help it.

Speaker 3 (02:18:21):
You know with lifting heavy things and whatever.

Speaker 1 (02:18:23):
But maybe we you know, we just do robots, don't
we Like why you you know.

Speaker 2 (02:18:27):
I'm glad we don't have ED two O nine's right now.

Speaker 1 (02:18:29):
You know it's like touche yeah, because it would be
used to like rob Banks. Basically, yeah, let's be grateful,
you know, rip vault doors off all bad news.

Speaker 2 (02:18:39):
You know.

Speaker 1 (02:18:41):
Man, that's a movie I want to see now, where
like someone somehow like it's fired from a company or something,
so they steal one of these like powerloaders, and they're
going to use it to like rob Banks. So it's
not like the future future like where everything around is dazzling.
It's like kind of the world we know, but someone
as like you know, it's stole one and they use

(02:19:02):
it for crazy things. Can a funny movie.

Speaker 2 (02:19:05):
I think you need to start writing it all right.
I mean that this is the you know, the dilemma
of a lot of technology is is you know these
sci fi movies show like, oh, all this stuff that's
so cool looking. But like usually these are cautionary tales. Yeah,
and we tend not to pay attention to the cautionary part.

Speaker 3 (02:19:28):
They're like, hey, we can build that.

Speaker 1 (02:19:30):
Yeah you know, yeah, I mean yeah, the AI and
the Terminator series cautionary tale.

Speaker 2 (02:19:38):
Yeah. It has been amusing watching Cameron, you know, when
he chimes in on the AI boom and kind of
just being incredulous, like, didn't you guys pay attention?

Speaker 1 (02:19:48):
You know, yeah, I guess yeah, were you listening or
we just thinking it's cool when his arm turns into
a blade. You didn't even listen to my story? You know,
we're about to go in this amazing battle. But this
was seeing them with all the warpaint. This reminded me.
I saw this story and I double checked this to

(02:20:10):
make sure this was real. But apparently James Cameron visited
a Brazilian rainforest several times after receiving outcries from tribal
leaders oh wow that were inspired by this film, and
you know, they wanted to highlight things that were happening
to their land that they weren't happy about, and so

(02:20:31):
they went to James Cameron. And so James Cameron went
out to go meet with them. And during one visit,
he was like covered in war paint and had a
spear in his hand and met with all these indigenous
leaders to plan a battle to stop the construction of
a proposed dam. Wow, And all I thought was, you

(02:20:52):
just have no idea where James Cameron is On a Wednesday.
He could be at the bottom of the ocean floor
where he could be covered in war paint planning a
battle with indigenous leaders to stop the building of.

Speaker 2 (02:21:07):
A Damn Like you just I want a Saturday Morning
animated yes, called the Adventures of James Cameron. It would
be like the old Mister t cartoon. Yes, yes, he's
in a bus with a team of gymnasts, I guess,
and they're you know, helping native tribes, you know, just
every week. You never know.

Speaker 1 (02:21:26):
He would he'd be in his headquarters. He'd have to
have some sort of talking animal sidekick. You know. I
had like a little did he do? Did he? Did?

Speaker 2 (02:21:33):
He?

Speaker 1 (02:21:33):
Did?

Speaker 2 (02:21:33):
He did?

Speaker 3 (02:21:33):
He?

Speaker 2 (02:21:34):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (02:21:34):
Oh they need me you know in Brazil, So he
gets in his pod or whatever you want.

Speaker 2 (02:21:45):
I'd watch it.

Speaker 1 (02:21:46):
I would too if it looked like those old eighties
cartoon Yeah, yeah, oh.

Speaker 2 (02:21:49):
Yeah, he I have told you about this before, but
he had this this terrific documentary series called James Cameron's
History of Science Fiction.

Speaker 3 (02:21:58):
Yes, I remember that, dude.

Speaker 2 (02:22:01):
You I mean, you got you got all these talking
heads talking about you know, theoretical stuff and the various
films and stuff. But to me, the centerpiece of this
entire series is James Cameron sitting at a table with
George Lucas, with Steven Spielberg, with Ridley Scott, with Christopher Nolan,
and and you know, these guys are like there, they

(02:22:23):
are so much the top of their class that there's
not even any competition anymore, you know what I mean.
And so it's just you get to see them just
shoot the shit. You get to see Christopher Nolan and
James Cameron talking about time travel. Hmmm, right, Like.

Speaker 3 (02:22:42):
How have I not watched this?

Speaker 2 (02:22:44):
I mean you you will, you will absolutely love this series.

Speaker 1 (02:22:46):
Yeah, I mean, I just find Cameron to be such
an interesting person. And he's obviously brilliant, and he knows
he's brilliant. So sometimes he can be a little you know, yeah,
challenging listen to, but like, we don't get a lot
of that, and I do, and Joy hearing his thoughts. So, yeah,
I'm surprised I haven't watched that off to do that, right.

Speaker 2 (02:23:05):
I like it.

Speaker 1 (02:23:06):
Rodriguez has got the war paint.

Speaker 2 (02:23:12):
Yeah, kind of a bummer. She taps out.

Speaker 1 (02:23:14):
Here, Yeah, a little unceremoniously, right, Yeah, it'd be nice
if but she goes out a hero.

Speaker 3 (02:23:22):
She does, and she did the right thing.

Speaker 1 (02:23:26):
That was my feeling when I that's kind of it, right,
Like she just kind of crashes.

Speaker 2 (02:23:30):
I kind of wish she had taken something out with her.
I think we get another shot doing it.

Speaker 1 (02:23:34):
Okay, I can't remember. So I love this, Like, I
think this is a really emotional battle. You know, we
know what the stakes are and we want to see
them stop these people from destroying their planet and everything.

(02:23:54):
And I remember this. If you were to ask me
the plot of Avatar one, I'd be able to tell you,
honestly don't remember the plot of Avatar too. And I don't.
I don't mean that to like, you know, sound like
a jerk, Like I just don't.

Speaker 2 (02:24:07):
No. So I had a similar thought because well with
regards to the second one, but even the third one,
which you know I've seen about about two weeks ago,
as were recording this, and I was telling you before
we got on. I was like, I kind of remember
what it's about, right, right, right, But I think these

(02:24:28):
movies are about feelings. Yeah, yeah, that's that's really it, right,
And and I think the feelings are what gets you
to come back, if not to the specific films, to
the world. Yeah, you know, like I told you, like
my clearest memory, so yeah, see this is where Trudy,
like we see her check out.

Speaker 3 (02:24:48):
Okay, we see your ship crash.

Speaker 2 (02:24:52):
But but like the my clearest memory of movie two
is when Jake sees his his grown son who died,
but he sees as a little child. And I remember
what that made me feel.

Speaker 1 (02:25:03):
Like hmmm, you know, like I remember the boy connecting
with that whale. Yep, and I liked it, Like, yeah,
it's right, it's feelings. You're right.

Speaker 2 (02:25:13):
And I will say this about Movie three. If you
ever wanted to see a bunch of whales put another
whale on trial, well, hey, your whale is coming in.

Speaker 3 (02:25:23):
I swear I don't know if you're making it up
like that.

Speaker 2 (02:25:26):
I assure you I am not.

Speaker 1 (02:25:29):
You know, I I know I'm going to be disappointed
because I'm picturing them sitting upright in a human courtroom.

Speaker 2 (02:25:35):
Are you picturing like the dolphins in that Simpsons episode.

Speaker 1 (02:25:38):
Right right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but I'm still I'm
still interested. So Snorky or whatever.

Speaker 2 (02:25:48):
That was, you picked that one as one of your favorites.
If I recall of your of the Treehouse of Horror, yep, yeah, yeah, yeah,
I remember that was the Dolphin.

Speaker 1 (02:25:56):
It was very funny, but also I remember it went
really dark, especially for those those horror ones go dark anyway,
but that one I remember being like, wow, like this
is all the humans march into the ocean.

Speaker 2 (02:26:10):
Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 1 (02:26:15):
We've had some good sort of I don't know call
him set pieces, but moments here, like we had the
brother when he goes into that one ship, right and
he's battling all those guys.

Speaker 2 (02:26:25):
That's right.

Speaker 1 (02:26:25):
Yeah, it's kind of striking when you see the nave
next to humans, you forget that they're ten peece auld
their size. Yeah, but it's cool like seeing him in
there and slow mo using his bow and taking all
those guys out.

Speaker 3 (02:26:37):
But ultimately.

Speaker 2 (02:26:40):
I also like that in terms of the story, you know,
Jake doesn't assume leadership of the people. You know, he
once he's you know, conquered the giant leon optics. He's
not like, all right, I'm the boss now. He's like, look,
I'm here to help, but you need to lead kind
of thing. Yeah, and then that guy gets taken off

(02:27:01):
the board, and then at that point Jake steps up.

Speaker 3 (02:27:04):
Yeah, and that's that's a great point.

Speaker 1 (02:27:05):
Yeah, I want to be like, this is my tribe now.

Speaker 2 (02:27:09):
Yeah, exactly, Neil bitch like that might have been countering
to it.

Speaker 1 (02:27:20):
This is good. I'd forgotten about these creatures, so I
was like, oh, yeah, these guys, these are perfect.

Speaker 3 (02:27:24):
To take these people off the board.

Speaker 2 (02:27:26):
Well, that guy who just got got pounded and flattened.
He comes back as as one of the Nave clones
alongside Koricho in two and three.

Speaker 3 (02:27:34):
It's funny.

Speaker 1 (02:27:35):
I do remember that. Actually, you know what, The thing
I remember most about two, which I freaking loved is
when Korich sees his skeleton.

Speaker 2 (02:27:42):
Yeah. I thought that was really cool.

Speaker 1 (02:27:44):
Right, So it's like he's in the NAVI body now,
but he picks up his own skull and then.

Speaker 3 (02:27:50):
Crushes it because that iteration of him is no more.

Speaker 1 (02:27:52):
And I remember thinking that is one of the coolest
things I've seen in a sci fi movie being.

Speaker 3 (02:27:57):
Able to do that to yourself.

Speaker 1 (02:28:02):
We'll get to it. Yeah, here's a couple of years.

Speaker 2 (02:28:05):
Yeah, I feel like we're we're committing at this point, right.
You know, as I watched this just real quick, I'm like,
you know, I don't think I would do well on Pandora.
I'm just gonna put that.

Speaker 1 (02:28:19):
That's what I was saying earlier. Man, Like, I get it.
I'm in love in the tierry. I'm really glad I
could help, But like I'm kind of feeling like, do
you want to come back to Seattle with me? You know, like, yeah,
you're walking around with your ten foot tall Yeah, furry
blue girlfriend.

Speaker 3 (02:28:37):
Tell me you don't see it?

Speaker 2 (02:28:40):
Come on.

Speaker 1 (02:28:44):
What I was gonna say was, you know, I worked
on a movie now You See Me, and it had,
you know, visual effects in it, and it was really
cool to be in the meetings with Louis La Terrier
and he would have a laser pointer. They would show
the visual effects people would show him, you know, the
shots that involve visual effects, and you'd have a laser pointer.

(02:29:04):
And I remember one where there's something projected onto a
building at the end of the film, and he would
point and be like, this looks awesome. It does look
like a projection, but the edges don't quite look like
the edge of a projection where they would sort of
taper off or fade or whatever. And I was like, Oh,
it's like the way that his eyes would study every
inch of that frame to make sure all of it

(02:29:24):
was believable, right. And I remember thinking like, it's amazing
he's got this eye it. Wow, you know, it's just
really got to be looking at every corner of the
frame to do this. And I'm looking at this now
and all of this isn't real. And you've got people's
braids flapping in the wind, and you have these little

(02:29:45):
you know, flaming fireballs with trailing smoke, and you know,
just the flutter of the wings of the creatures, the
way that the wind is playing off of it. How
do you look at every inch of every second of
this movie? And you know, like it really takes a

(02:30:05):
certain brain, Like I admire it, Like having gotten a
glimpse of that, it makes me look at that even
closer and go like, wow, that's incredible, all the things,
all the detail that he had to have an eye
for for this.

Speaker 2 (02:30:20):
Yeah, Well and and you know, going back to what
we were saying earlier about how he is so exacting
with his expectations of himself and the people around him.
I mean, again, it tells you something that there's plenty
of folks who've worked with him who are like, I
never want to work with him again, right, But then again,
he's got a real loyal Coteret, you know, right, And

(02:30:42):
that tells you something. I mean, even people who who
said initially like it wasn't a great time, you know.
I know, Kate Winslet or you know, Sigourney we were,
you know, and they've come back, They've come back. You know,
James Horner famously they clashed on Aliens. Oh interesting, you know,
and then they ended up having a great relationship on

(02:31:03):
this and on Titanic. You know.

Speaker 1 (02:31:05):
Yeah, what I was gonna say with Kate Winslet, I mean,
it was a nightmare for her working in all that water, yeah,
in Titanic, and then she comes back to work with
Cammon to work in water again.

Speaker 2 (02:31:17):
You know.

Speaker 1 (02:31:18):
There you go, it's not just being on set with him,
She's doing the very thing that I think made life
miserable for her. So that's yeah, you're right that says something.
Maybe there's something about seeing the finished product.

Speaker 2 (02:31:29):
I think that's really what it is, right because because
with Titanic, I remember, and I'm sure you remember too,
you know, the eight months to a year before the
movie came out, everybody just shitting all over it. Yeah
you know, I mean they were ready to write off
his career a year in advance, right, And I think

(02:31:52):
the last thing they expected, I'm talking pundits, was that
it would be good. That did not end the calculation.

Speaker 3 (02:32:01):
Right right, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:32:05):
And yet I love you know, he talked about this
is in that video that he did for GQ or something.
It's like an hour long thing.

Speaker 3 (02:32:11):
In any fair, definitely worth checking out.

Speaker 2 (02:32:13):
Oh man, so good. And he talks about with Titanic,
he is a double a double page spread in this book,
the Art of Titanic, and it's a painting of the
sinking of the ship. And he goes to the head
of Fox. He just opens it up to that spread
points that it goes Romeo and Juliet on that, right,
and they're.

Speaker 1 (02:32:29):
Like, go right, I love that though. I remember, you know,
that's kind of the famous thing too with Aliens, where
he walked apparently walked into a room and wrote. You know,
he said he's going to do a sequel to Alien,
And he writes the word alien on a whiteboard and
he adds an S and turns it into a dollar
symbol alien.

Speaker 2 (02:32:48):
And whether that's true or not, it's sure certainly sounds
on brand.

Speaker 1 (02:32:52):
It tracks, It tracks, But I love that. And when
you've got someone like him and that's all he says
to you, You're like, I believe you exactly. So the
terry kind of teamed uh, these crazy creatures. Yeah, yeah,
but you know that was another moment I liked, which
could be a little corny or almost Disney, but it's like,

(02:33:14):
you know, that's one of their fiercest predators on their planet,
but when their planet is under attack, they share an
knowing look with one another.

Speaker 2 (02:33:23):
Well, Colonel Korus is just that much of an asshole, right,
It transcends species. They're all like, alf this guy.

Speaker 1 (02:33:32):
Yeah, we gotta. It's kind of a funn image that look.

Speaker 2 (02:33:37):
By the time we get here, I'm like, okay, I'm
checking like the last thing on my bingo card, you.

Speaker 1 (02:33:41):
Know, right right, yeah, you called it.

Speaker 3 (02:33:44):
I called it like five for five, And.

Speaker 2 (02:33:49):
Then I just got up in the middle of the theater,
and I was like bingo and be like sit.

Speaker 1 (02:33:52):
Down, sorry, that's hilarious. I was picturing the like one
other person in there doing the same thing, like you
two were like doing the same thing, which reminded me.
And then it made me think of when I saw
the movie Split and then you realized that it was
an unbreakable sequel.

Speaker 2 (02:34:13):
Oh su sure.

Speaker 1 (02:34:13):
And I remember being in the theater and going no,
and I remember there was like one other person who
went what.

Speaker 3 (02:34:22):
We were kind of like I see you, you know.

Speaker 1 (02:34:24):
Like like no one else. I remember, having explained it
to the people I was with, I was like, you understand,
this is.

Speaker 2 (02:34:31):
Amazing, both of you two. You lock eyes, you hug,
You're like, this is what it's like dubs cry exactly.

Speaker 1 (02:34:41):
By the way, So this is something I didn't even notice,
but I read it in the trivia, so now I'm
gonna look for it. But apparently the like war paint
on the tier, the hand on her is five fingers,
so it's like jacopplied it.

Speaker 2 (02:34:56):
Ah.

Speaker 1 (02:34:56):
I like, that's a great detail.

Speaker 2 (02:34:58):
I wouldn't have even thought of that.

Speaker 1 (02:34:59):
Yeah, man, it.

Speaker 2 (02:35:04):
Looks so good. So there should have been like the
handprint like on her right butt cheek.

Speaker 1 (02:35:09):
Yes, that wasn't like, that wasn't worth it. That was
just like a good game. Let's let's go.

Speaker 3 (02:35:14):
Let's say, Pandora.

Speaker 2 (02:35:17):
See this now, this bit here is where you know, shortly,
you know, NTEREI sees the real Jake and you know, yes,
you know, and I kind of going back to what
you're saying before, it'd be funny if he this is
this is the the dumpy, overweight brother who's kind of homely.

Speaker 3 (02:35:36):
Right right right the version we pitched at the beginning
of this.

Speaker 2 (02:35:39):
Yeah, and he looks nothing like his avatar and she's like,
my chig. Oh, oh, that's funny.

Speaker 3 (02:35:50):
He's got a good heart.

Speaker 1 (02:35:55):
Dunt dun dunce wow thing. Oh man.

Speaker 2 (02:36:06):
You know we're talking about earlier, you know, James Cameron
wanting to you want student novels and this and that
and the other thing, and and ultimately I'm glad none
of that really happened, because I think this franchise just
works better as this thing that we get to experience
in the movie theaters every couple of years. And that's it.

Speaker 1 (02:36:28):
That's I don't disagree, but I guess that would be
a really interesting test wouldn't it to what we've just said,
where this is the thing people show up for in
theaters for the feeling more than anything else, the experience.
But would people get into words the stories in a book,

(02:36:48):
the character?

Speaker 3 (02:36:48):
Well, okay, so how actual visual spectacle.

Speaker 2 (02:36:51):
I'll allow novels because that that's gonna be that's aimed
at like a niche of a niche anyway. But but
I don't want your your you know, your Disney Plus
World of Pandora series or whatever, you know, if that
none of.

Speaker 3 (02:37:04):
That okay, if you can't see it in a theater, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:37:07):
I'm like, let let some things just be just be
a theatrical experience.

Speaker 1 (02:37:13):
Yeah, and when you're James Cameron, maybe you can put
your foot down about that thing.

Speaker 2 (02:37:18):
Yeah. Like I I don't I don't think anything's gonna
come of Avatar that he doesn't sign off on. And
I can't imagine he would want a series, you know.

Speaker 1 (02:37:27):
Yeah, I like this. This is good tension. You know,
he's suffocating, I can't reach the mask.

Speaker 2 (02:37:35):
It's a great moment. Yeah, and you know again it
lets her truly see him and still all in love
with him, you.

Speaker 3 (02:37:43):
Know, it is Yeah, jarring.

Speaker 1 (02:37:46):
Seeing you know her their true sizes, that's right, and
just even seeing her in that vehicle, you know that
every like a human would be able to stand up in.

Speaker 2 (02:37:58):
Yeah, I think the the uh, this is the first
time we see Nave in this environment.

Speaker 1 (02:38:04):
M oh yeah, yeah, you're right.

Speaker 2 (02:38:06):
Right, so there is definitely an adjustment, like we don't
even see the avatars in this environment.

Speaker 3 (02:38:10):
That's a good point.

Speaker 2 (02:38:11):
Yeah, not really, except in the very beginning when Jake,
you know, when Jake and Norm wake up.

Speaker 1 (02:38:20):
Mm hmm, yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (02:38:24):
It could cut to the train entering the the rocket like.

Speaker 3 (02:38:29):
One of them, just cox and eyebrow, and then.

Speaker 1 (02:38:32):
Yeah, that's it.

Speaker 3 (02:38:34):
We just hear it slightly in the distance.

Speaker 1 (02:38:40):
That's funny.

Speaker 2 (02:38:42):
She's like, lately, I like this here where Jake is
like the aliens went back to their world.

Speaker 1 (02:38:47):
I love that too.

Speaker 3 (02:38:48):
That's a great line, right yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:38:51):
Yeah. Giovanni Ribisi, which, by the way, that gave you
an hour?

Speaker 1 (02:38:57):
Yeah, yeah, I was the.

Speaker 3 (02:38:58):
Guy like, but do you remember an hour?

Speaker 2 (02:39:01):
Come on?

Speaker 1 (02:39:02):
I read that this Ribisi saying, you know, this isn't over.
Wasn't in the original version. That was in one of
the director's cuts. Interesting, ever since when they did the
theatrical re release, they kept that, so Cameron apparently was like,
I want to keep that, And every version ever since

(02:39:23):
theatrical version has included that scene that was not originally in.

Speaker 2 (02:39:28):
That's fascinating.

Speaker 3 (02:39:29):
Yeah, you know this isn't over that.

Speaker 2 (02:39:32):
That's I mean, don't I don't think you needed that
to explicitly say a sequels coming. But I suppose since
you know a sequel's coming, you know, you.

Speaker 1 (02:39:41):
Know, it adds a nice I don't know, we won't
call it tension, but just like this is, you've got
your your ending here, but this there's some things that
are not resolved.

Speaker 3 (02:39:50):
Yeah, it gives you a little little hooked there. I guess.

Speaker 1 (02:39:57):
Something else I read that was kind of interesting. In
excuse me, the theatrical version Worthington's brother, it says he
was killed by a gun, but in the extended version
he says.

Speaker 3 (02:40:10):
It was a knife.

Speaker 2 (02:40:11):
It was a knife. Here.

Speaker 3 (02:40:12):
I wonder what the thinking is why you make it different.

Speaker 2 (02:40:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:40:18):
Yeah, I mean maybe you shoot different versions to see
whatever you feel has the most impact. But I wonder
why he decided, oh, this version will have this and
that version will have that.

Speaker 2 (02:40:30):
The Only thing I can think of is that a
knife implies something happening at close range, and there's something
more savage about that mmmmmm.

Speaker 3 (02:40:39):
And more personal about just gun violence.

Speaker 2 (02:40:42):
Yeah, we don't know the context of the gun violence,
but we can assume if somebody was stabbed, it happened,
you know, they were being looked in the eyes by
whoever did it, you know.

Speaker 3 (02:40:53):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a good point.

Speaker 2 (02:40:55):
I don't know how that matters in terms of the
overall story, but I mean that would be the difference
between those two, you know. I like how the scene
with Grace earlier allows you to set up this ending
so it doesn't feel arbitrary, you.

Speaker 1 (02:41:16):
Know, which it might feel more for our hero, right,
oh gee, you can save the guy, you know, the
main thing.

Speaker 2 (02:41:23):
Yeah, right, exactly right.

Speaker 1 (02:41:25):
But we know this is a thing Papyrus. Yes, yeah,
we haven't even talked about that yet.

Speaker 2 (02:41:33):
So there's an SNL sketch called Papyrus, which is probably
one of my top five SNL sketches of all time
in terms of their filmed segments, you know. And yeah,
it's just it's somebody who's obsessing over the fact that Avatar,
this multi billion dollar blockbuster, used Papyrus for its for
its marketing font and and it is brilliant.

Speaker 1 (02:41:56):
It's so it's it's a funny idea, but then it's
just so expertly executed. Yeah, that it feels not like
a thriller, but you know just like a I don't know,
like a horror film or something. This guy just can't grapple. Yeah,
and he has to chase down the guy who did it,
you know, get him through like his window did.

Speaker 2 (02:42:19):
Yeah. So funny.

Speaker 1 (02:42:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:42:24):
Sam Worthington as our boy, yep, yep.

Speaker 3 (02:42:26):
You know a couple of things real quick.

Speaker 1 (02:42:27):
I want to bring up as this is the credits
are ruling the world of Avatar at Disney World. I believe, Yes, yes,
never been there, but I'm sure it's amazing. But that's
you know, before we even got the sequel that opened
up there, so they probably had to have a good
inkling from Cameron that it was coming. If they're going
to invest in all that keep Avatar alive.

Speaker 2 (02:42:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:42:50):
I thought this was an interesting thing about Matt Damon.
You know, he turned down doing Avatar and he would
have netted ten percent of the movie's profits.

Speaker 2 (02:43:00):
Which was like two hundred and fifty million.

Speaker 3 (02:43:02):
Yeah, somewhere are like two nine, two hundred ninety million.

Speaker 2 (02:43:04):
He would have gotten well, And it wasn't like he
wasn't like, no, that sounds stupid. He was committed to
the Bourne War movies. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:43:10):
Yeah, I just thought that was interesting.

Speaker 1 (02:43:12):
And then also this being the number one highest grossing
movie in the world of all time. Yeah, and it
was challenged for a minute there by Avengers Endgame.

Speaker 2 (02:43:23):
That's right, right.

Speaker 1 (02:43:24):
Endgame got past it for a second there, and then
they did a re release of Avatar that put it
back in the number one position.

Speaker 2 (02:43:31):
But and Cameron said as much. You know when when
when Endgame displaced Avatar, they're like, what do you think
about it? He's like, yeah, we'll get it back. I'm like,
you cocky son of a bitch.

Speaker 1 (02:43:43):
You're right, yeah, yeah, but I mean, adjusted for inflation,
Avatar is the second highest grossing movie of all time,
only behind Gone with the Wind.

Speaker 2 (02:43:52):
That's extraordinary.

Speaker 3 (02:43:54):
It was just kind of amazing about Gone with the Wind.

Speaker 2 (02:43:55):
Good lord.

Speaker 1 (02:43:57):
Yeah, and it was nominated for nine awards at the
Academy Awards.

Speaker 2 (02:44:03):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (02:44:04):
So I mean just an all around gargantuan success.

Speaker 2 (02:44:08):
Yeah, which is how people will describe our commentary track.
I'd like to believe, let's hope, so in years, in
decades to come. Yeah, it'll be mentioned in the same
breadth as Avatar, because you have to say Avatar commentary track.

Speaker 1 (02:44:26):
So you know, we haven't really seen Avatar until you've
listened to the movie film commentary.

Speaker 2 (02:44:35):
So other other thoughts. This is now, this is now
my fifth time watching this movie cumulatively.

Speaker 1 (02:44:44):
I don't know what this is for me, four ish
somewhere around there. Yeah, I mean my main takeaway after
I finished it. I finished watching it this morning, right
before we hopped on. It's just almost impossible not to
find poor of it silly. Yeah, you just have to
grapple with certain things that just feel inherently a little

(02:45:05):
silly or or on the nose or whatever. Right, And
at the same time, I felt sad when it wanted
me to feel sad. I felt charged up when it
wanted me to feel charged up. And at the end
of the day, you know, silliness aside. It works. I
think this movie works. And it's no surprise it connected

(02:45:25):
around the world because the themes, like you said, are
just so potent and universal.

Speaker 2 (02:45:32):
I definitely agree with that.

Speaker 1 (02:45:33):
Yeah, but it is interesting though I mean for not
to rehash this tired conversation, but like you don't see
you know, you see people wearing Star Wars shirts or
Star Wars action figures or whatever, and it's like this movie,
as popular is it, or successful as it is, just

(02:45:53):
doesn't connect in that way. And that's kind of interesting.

Speaker 2 (02:45:56):
That is interesting. Well, you know, my thing is like
when that's a point of critique, like oh, you know
people aren't buying the toys or you know, yeah, people
aren't wearing the shirts or whatever, I'm like, okay, well,
maybe think about yourself, like, don't don't be wearing at
You don't need to wear Avatar shirts, you know, like
you do. You don't need to play with the toys.

(02:46:18):
Do something, do something with your life. What have you
done with yourself? That's my response.

Speaker 1 (02:46:23):
Well, I did think that was an interesting conversation, you know, like, oh, yeah,
I guess that's kind of true when we only had
the one, it's at this point, well certainly that, but
also when the second one came out and it succeeded
just as well. To me, yeah, it's not a critique,
it's like, well, it's just kind of interesting, you know,

(02:46:44):
like these are successes.

Speaker 3 (02:46:47):
It's just we connect with them in different ways than
we do with other successes.

Speaker 2 (02:46:52):
Yeah, I just I think that that's a very that's
a very corporatized, reductive view when you're only looking at
it in terms of, oh, what you know, action figures
are you putting on your shelves or whatever, Like Okay.

Speaker 1 (02:47:04):
Well that's something Rabisi's character would say.

Speaker 2 (02:47:07):
That's right, he'll be a Rai. Don't be a Rabisi.

Speaker 1 (02:47:10):
Yeah character.

Speaker 2 (02:47:11):
I'm sure Giovanni himself is a very lovely fella, but.

Speaker 1 (02:47:14):
It's only because I can't remember the name of the character.
With apologies to Giovanni Rubci Parker. Parker, Well, I like, Rubci,
better pitch your Rabbisi's out here bringing up this tired
talking point. I meanwhile, yeah, Giovanni Ruvizi is like restoring
all these like cameras and.

Speaker 2 (02:47:31):
You're yeah, right, yeah, he's like a cinematographer and stuff. Yeah, yeah,
but here we go. Okay, well, Avatar, we have seen it.

Speaker 1 (02:47:40):
Yeah, and you know what, I enjoyed it. I'm going
to try to watch the second one again. Yeah, we'll
see if it sticks. But like I am looking forward
to the third one. I'm looking forward to the experience.

Speaker 2 (02:47:52):
Yeah, same, you know I have, I have watched it already,
but but I know that my kids want to see it,
and I'm like, you know, yeah I could. I could
probably sneak in another viewing.

Speaker 3 (02:48:00):
Yeah, well tell me about that.

Speaker 1 (02:48:01):
So you you've seen it, it's over three hours, but
you feel like you would be okay sitting through it again.

Speaker 2 (02:48:07):
I wouldn't be opposed to it. I mean, I'm not,
you know, it's like I'm willing to leave the possibility. Oh,
but it's it's it's not a definite no, but it's
a hey maybe. And that's something sure. You know I
told you this earlier with regards to the new film.
I mean, it doesn't feel short, but it doesn't feel long.
And okay I did not at any point check my watch,

(02:48:28):
So that that tells you something.

Speaker 1 (02:48:30):
Yeah, well, tell me your your final thoughts on this
one then Avatar one.

Speaker 2 (02:48:33):
Well, I think that it's it's a showcase for James
Cameron's truly astonishing imagination. Yeah, and also a showcase for
his technical wizardry. He's he has a well documented ego,
but to his credit, he consistently demonstrates that he has

(02:48:56):
every right to that ego. Yeah, you know, and you
know the fact that this movie conquered the box office
in a way that seems unlikely to be toppled anytimes
in barring another you know Avengers endgame situation that that
says more than enough. You know.

Speaker 1 (02:49:16):
Yeah, but there we go.

Speaker 2 (02:49:18):
But those are our thoughts. I know, I know. This
is a film that certainly draws many of reactions from folks.
So let us know, let us know your thoughts, Let
us know your thoughts on our thoughts. You can email
us those thoughts at Moviefilm Podcasts at gmail dot com.
You can also hit like on our Facebook page Facebook
dot com slash movie Film Podcast and message us there.
As always, please go to Apple Podcasts and leave review,

(02:49:38):
leave a star rating. If you're listening to this on YouTube,
please hit like, hit subscribe, and leave comments there because
we do read those on the show. We also have
a Patreon page, Brian Yes. If you head over to
patreon dot com slash Moviefilm podcast and hit subscribe for
only five dollars a month, you'll find every commentary we've
ever done, and you also find every regular episode we do.

(02:50:00):
Moving forward absolutely ad free. Our free feed will always
be available, but this is our way of providing what
we believe is the most satisfying way to enjoy the show. Plus,
your subscription goes a long way and helping to support
us and helping to sustain producing the show. So if
you're interested in able, please head over to patreon dot
com slash MOVIEFILM podcast and subscribe.

Speaker 1 (02:50:20):
We'd be very grateful.

Speaker 2 (02:50:23):
And if you're looking for me online, you can find
me on social media at Zaki's Corner. That's z Akis Corner.
I'm also at the San Francisco Chronicle. I'm also at
the Wrap and IgM. What about you, Brian.

Speaker 1 (02:50:32):
You can find episodes I've written of Puppy Dog Pals
and Young Jedi Adventures streaming on Disney Plus and.

Speaker 2 (02:50:39):
With that on behalf of my partner Brian Hall. My
name is Zachie Hassan. This has been our movie film
commentary track for Avatar. We will catch you next time.
Thanks folks,

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