Commentary Track: Superman Returns

Superman has returned to the movies, so we thought it was a perfect time to revisit 2006's SUPERMAN RETURNS! The Bryan Singer-directed superhero sequel was meant to revitalize the Man of Steel's movie fortunes in the mid-aughts, but it failed to take flight, leading to nearly two decades of studio indecision. We certainly have some thoughts on this would-be-epic, from its fraught production history to its eventual evaluation, and we go through it all in this extended conversation, which you can listen to on its own or while watching along with us!

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome friends, It's coming podcast. Podcast is done. Show Jackie
again Ryan. They're talking tout mob moming. No Bock has
only ready Bother used to say that you were put

(00:22):
here for a reason, so you're fluent last week because
he still stand for truth, justice, all that stuff. It's
a bird's no look, it's you wanted to see Me?

(00:44):
Rated PG. Thirteen in theaters in Imax June twenty eighth.
Welcome to a movie film commentary track. My name is
Zaki Hassan. I'm here at Brian Hall. Hey, how's it going, Zachi.
I'm doing well. Brian. I'm actually I'm glad you hopped on.
I'm actually I wanted to tell you about the new
article I'm working on. It's called Why the World Doesn't
Need Brian Hall. I thought you might like to get

(01:07):
a sneak preview of that.

Speaker 2 (01:09):
Yeah, maybe we can get into that while.

Speaker 1 (01:11):
We Maybe it'll win me a pulletzer, the way Lois
Lane won a pulletzer for Why the World Doesn't Need Superman.

Speaker 2 (01:20):
Yeah, I know, I mean I only just abandoned you
for five years without any explanation or goodbye, so.

Speaker 1 (01:26):
It was a little hurtful. I'll be honest, I can
kind of see it. We're here to talk about Superman returns.
It seems like it's a timely place for this discussion,
given that we are about to witness Superman's latest return
to the cinemas via Superman.

Speaker 2 (01:42):
Yeah this week, which you have already seen but I
have not.

Speaker 1 (01:45):
I know some interesting context as we go into this discussion.
Mm hmmm, all kinds of double entendres peppered into our conversation.
Potentially I won't even know. There'll be There'll be electric
throughout this discussion, far more electricity I might offer than
in the movie that we're about to watch, which is

(02:06):
notably electricity free, at least in terms of chemistry between people.

Speaker 2 (02:12):
No, I mean you being the Superman fan that you are.
I I this came out in two thousand and six.
I don't even remember, honestly what your thoughts are on
this movie. So I'm really looking forward to digging into this.

Speaker 1 (02:26):
I have many thoughts. The one piece of context I
will offer before we hit play is that it is
now nineteen years since this movie came out, By the way,
the same amount of time between Superman for the Quest
for Piece and Superman Returns. Wow, it's passed since it's crazy.
And in those nineteen years, I have watched this movie

(02:47):
the whole way through exactly twice, once being opening night
in two thousand and six, once being last night when
I watched it in prep for this discussion.

Speaker 2 (02:56):
Wow, well me too, me too. So I'm amazed how
much I remember and just how long it had been
at the same time and so.

Speaker 1 (03:06):
Again, and how long it is and how long it is.

Speaker 2 (03:11):
But I was gonna say, you, being the you know,
the Superman fan that you are, it's fascinating that you
haven't gone back even just sort of skipped through it
or something throughout the years.

Speaker 1 (03:21):
So I very very curious, there you go. So there's
there's just you know, maybe tipping my hands slightly, but yeah,
there's something something knowing. Anyway, Hey, we're about to watch
the movie. You can watch along with us. If not,
you know, you can listen to us a gab about
what we think of what we're seeing on screen while
you go about your day doing doing other stuff, maybe

(03:41):
more productive stuff. I don't know. I know this movie
has its fans, so I don't want to inadvertently offend.
But you know, let's see how this discussion goes So
we're gonna do the usual thing. We're gonnait play on three,
one two three, play Brian, you're ready, I'm ready. Here
we go, all right, one two three? Quite all right? Wait?

Speaker 2 (04:09):
Have we ever commented on the fact that the subtitles
say that as Time Goes By is playing over the
Warner Brothers logo.

Speaker 1 (04:19):
I don't think we have commented on that. I've never
noticed that before. I don't think, really, yeah, that the
subtitle say it, or that it does.

Speaker 2 (04:29):
In fact, I've noticed that it's used the couple notes
from it. Yeah, but I didn't realize that the captioning
actually calls it out.

Speaker 1 (04:38):
Well, I'm glad it does it. It's worth the calling
out now, we know that's nice. Right, yep. This is
the DC Comics logo that existed for a brief time
in the in the mid auts. I think they used
it on Dark Knight Rises and this and handful of
other things. It is no longer the DC logo. I
only bring that up to say that, you know, I
was during that era. I was by ending my comic

(05:00):
books and my my voluminous DC Comics collection. I was like, well,
this is the DC Comics logo, so that's what I use.
So the overwhelming majority of my books have that short
lived logo on them. I kind of like it. Yeah,
so now no, I'm just kind of hanging on. I'm like, no, no,
it's it's it's a retro thing, you know. Well.

Speaker 2 (05:19):
I have to say when that logo came up last night,
we had finished recording an episode and I had edited
the episode and write it for that, I went to
dinner you know, are a dinner at home, and then
I started this movie up. So it was kind of
a marathon of all this stuff. So I was a
little tired, and I got to say the sound design
during that logo, I was like, not prepared. I was like,

(05:41):
it's very intense. It feels like one of those things
when they do a demonstration for the sound system in
a theater before the movie starts. I was like, damn,
I hope that guy got some sort of nod for
that frong.

Speaker 1 (05:57):
I was like, whoa, So right up top here we
begin with the Marlon Brando narration from the first film,
and we're dropped into the explosion of Krypton and then
into a credit sequence that is slavishly homaging the Richard
Donner film. And so that's sort of what you realize

(06:19):
watching this movie, is that a it is one of
the earliest examples of a legacy sequel. Yeah, right, But
really it's just Brian Singer wanting to cause play that
nineteen seventy eight movie because it it you know, it

(06:39):
attempts to be a sequel, but really it's just going
through most of the same beats from that original movie. Yeah.
And I would offer that it for somebody who professes
to be such a big fan of that film. I mean,
you know, he essentially went and got, you know, permission
from Richard Donner, know, who is his producer on the

(07:01):
X Men films, to pitch for this whatever. I'm I
just I'm stunned by how he seems to have missed
all of the important bits about not just that movie,
but that character. Hmmm. And that's rather remarkable to me
because because you know this this movie didn't perform the
way Warner Brothers had hoped, even though it did okay,

(07:23):
And and right away it was like, oh, well, that's
what happens when you try to stick to that old
style and what you know of those seventies and eighties movies,
and I'm like, yeah, but this is not this does
not evoke those movies in any way other than hearing
the music. I agree, I agree, you know, yeah, visually
it's really muddy and kind of you know, it bugged

(07:45):
the piss out of me when I was too right zachy.

Speaker 2 (07:48):
All right, So look, I a lot of times I'll
use your you know, Voodo account to watch some of
these movies. But I was like, all right, look, I'm
paying for freakin' HBO. It's available on HBO Max. I'm
gonna use the thing I'm paying for. So I watched
it and I thought, oh, this is is this not
four K?

Speaker 1 (08:03):
Like, what's the This is kind of blurry and kind
of yeah, muddy looking.

Speaker 2 (08:07):
And so then I switched over to your voodoo thinking
you would have a better copy of it, and it
was the same same, and I and I since I
was very curious about it, so I learned that this
was you using an early digital camera. You know, this
is a Revenge of the Sith was only a year
before this, so it was a Panavision Genesis HD camera

(08:28):
and you can kind of tell it's like the early
I mean, now digital looks incredible and they apply all
sorts of filters and things onto it to make it
look more filmic. But this movie has this weird like
smooth doubt, kind of like an Instagram filter look to it.

Speaker 1 (08:45):
Yeah, you know, which is Yeah.

Speaker 2 (08:48):
Unfortunately I kept thinking, and I don't always think this,
but I was thinking, Man, this movie would have looked.

Speaker 1 (08:53):
Gorgeous on film.

Speaker 2 (08:55):
Yeah, it's It's kind of a shame it hasn't aged
well visually.

Speaker 1 (08:59):
Yeah, Like I would say, the majority of the visual
effects and things are hold up. Okay, yeah, yeah, but
with some exceptions, which I suspect will point out. But
in general, I question this idea that, oh, this is
this is meant to be, you know, singer sort of
continuing that legacy because I'm like, in in most measurable ways,

(09:23):
it feels disconnected from from those other movies. Like I
don't and we'll get into it. I mean, some of
the casting in this movie is catastrophic.

Speaker 2 (09:34):
I feel like a listener now I'm gonna just sort
of look at my lips like I want to hear
all of this.

Speaker 1 (09:38):
So this is Noel Neil, who played who's the very
first Lois Lane. She was Lowis Lane in the Kirk
Allen serials and then also on the in the George
Reeves television series. She was the second lowest lane on
that show. How unfortunate for her having to play this scene.
Good lord, it's this is so odd, right, So you've

(10:00):
got this wealthy dowager who who Lex Luthor has shown
pleasures that no other woman has known, which I'm like, okay.

Speaker 2 (10:09):
That's I remember this. This is one of the few
things I remember from this movie from nineteen years ago,
and just being like, just this movie feels like it
starts off on the wrong foot yep, and stays there
and stays there the entire time, you know, and not
just this, I mean this is kind of gross.

Speaker 1 (10:30):
Yeah, icky, yeah, but I mean maybe not out of
character for Luthor or whatever.

Speaker 2 (10:36):
But then when you just get into the story about
Superman being gone for five years, like, to me, this
felt like a sequel, like we needed the first movie
to understand why Superman would leave like he did in
the manner that he left. Instead, we're just told he left,
he didn't say goodbye, and now he's back and he
wonders why everyone's upset. Right, It's not a great way

(10:57):
to start your Superman not at all.

Speaker 1 (10:59):
And for a variety of reasons. And let's just let's
just stay with this portion for a moment. This sequence
is ostensibly to explain why Lex Luthor has a boat.
I guess sure, yeah, I mean it has no bearing
on anything, right, Like, if the movie just starts with
him being wealthy, we're not going to be like where

(11:20):
did he get? Where do he get all that coin? Right?
So very odd. Now, now, Parker Posi, I gotta say,
watching this movie, I'm like, A, she's great in this yeah.
B she should have been Lois Lane.

Speaker 2 (11:36):
Ah, sure, a little more pluck, yeah, you know, yeah interesting, Yeah,
she's not given a lot to do.

Speaker 1 (11:44):
Yeah, Parker Posey's just one of those actors who has
kind of she She just has a has a spark,
you know. Oh I love her. Yeah she Well.

Speaker 2 (11:52):
I remember I worked on a Christopher Guest movie directly
after she filmed this, so I got to sit down
and have lunch with her, and I was asking.

Speaker 1 (12:02):
Her about this movie.

Speaker 2 (12:03):
I have like funny, vivid memory of that and saying like,
I mean, I know you probably can't say much, but
how was it. I Mean, it's such a big scale
movie and the only thing I remember her saying, was
that Brendan Routh, She's like, he's so sweet.

Speaker 1 (12:16):
That's what I hear to this day. Yeah, yeah, but man,
I had such a crush on her then. Oh yeah, yeah,
I was like such an awesome thing getting to sit
and talk with her like that. But but yeah, but
in this movie, all she does is just sort of
look glum and yeah, well she's kind of playing the
Valerie Parine character.

Speaker 2 (12:36):
Yeah, but she doesn't even like speak much like she
just since that it's interesting. It feels like a waste
of her talents.

Speaker 1 (12:41):
Oh, I one hundred percent agree with that, And I
think I think that could apply for many of the
people here. I mean even Marie Saint. I mean she's
a legend. Yeah, and why wouldn't you make Martha Kent
more of a prominent character She gets basically two scenes
in this movie, right, don't really impact the story very much.

(13:05):
Here's the thing. Okay, so, and you alluded to this earlier.
The movie's premise is that, yeah, Superman left Earth five
years ago. He let and and the movie gets into
it a little bit. He thought Krypton was still there.
He went over there and turns out it's not there

(13:25):
and so he came back right. It took and it
took five years there and back right now. There is
a scene that they filmed that you can you can
watch it on YouTube that that I don't know if
you had a chance to check it out. No, I
read about it. I didn't realize it was available. Yeah,
you watch it. It's just it's it's Superman's ship, you know.
It's the big crystalline ship from the first film, just

(13:47):
kind of going through the wreckage and it's very haunting
because it is the Krypton from that first movie, so
you recognize it, you know what I mean. And it's
like we just talked about Jurassic World. It's a little
bit like going through the visitor center. I I know this,
you know. And then it's him and then as he
gets closer, there's like Kryptonite all around and it starts
making him sick, so he leaves the end. Okay. Now,

(14:09):
this was a ten million dollars sequence that they shot, yeah,
and completed.

Speaker 2 (14:15):
Yeah, and then verted into Imax three D.

Speaker 1 (14:18):
The works, okay, and then they're like, nah, it doesn't work,
and a I'm like, think about that for a second.
Ten you could have shot four movies with that. Yeah right, yeah,
so this is Brian Singer just like actively pissing away
Warner Brothers money, right, Yeah. But fundamentally, what it gets
to is that the entire premise of the movie this

(14:40):
idea that Superman left for five years and he came
back and the world has moved on without him. That's
actually not a bad premise for a film, right, Sure,
certainly that's what Kingdom Come, the comic book series by
Mark Wade and Alex Ross, that's what it's about, Right,
Superman ended up leaving and then events call him back
in and that in that case, it was, you know,
the world decided they didn't want Superman anymore, you know,

(15:02):
But does.

Speaker 2 (15:02):
It begin that way? Like, what's the beginning of that story?
Is he away and he returns?

Speaker 1 (15:07):
Yeah? So there's basically a mass there's a mass killing
event that happens as a result of a superhero battle
and Superman is essentially in retirement, right, and a wonder
woman comes to him and she's like, you know, the

(15:28):
world needs you again, and he's pulled back in, And
if you haven't read the Kingdom Come, a terrific story, right,
But but it gets to fundamentally this idea of what
a Superman represent, Why, why is it? Why is he important? Right?
And you feel like this film was sort of nipping
around the edges of that as a premise. But I

(15:49):
think that when when you make the reason for Superman's
absence so nakedly selfish, it's just odd, Like, I don't
I don't believe there's any circumstance where Superman will be like,
all right, guys, I'm gonna peace out for five years.
You guys got this right, right, especially given that this

(16:13):
film was you know, per Brian Singer, this is ignores
three and four, And indeed it does. We know it
does because in three and four, Martha Kent is deceased,
so her existence as movie says, Oh okay, it's you know,
it's kind of it's its own timeline. But the end
of Superman two, and we've talked about this before, is
literally Superman at the White House telling the President I'm

(16:36):
sorry I was gone so long, mister President. I won't
let you down again. I forgot about that except in
like a week when I leave. So sorry.

Speaker 2 (16:45):
Yeah, yeah, I mean that's I agree with you. I
can see that as a concept, But yeah, you can't
just put text on screen at the beginning, That's right,
you know, that just says like Superman decided to leave, yeah,
and now he's back, and then when we pick up
our narrative, yeah, everyone's just sad. I mean, this is
such a melancholy movie.

Speaker 1 (17:05):
It really is. And so and and that's what I
mean when I say tonally, it just doesn't fit with
with those earlier films, you know, because say what you
will about the Richard Donner movie, I mean it treats
it seriously, but it's it it steps lightly. You know,
There's there's moments of humor, there's moments of joy throughout, yes, yes,
and and this is a joyless slog yeah yeah. So

(17:29):
I mean.

Speaker 2 (17:31):
Just alone this being supposedly a kickoff to Superman again,
like you said, it had been you know, almost two
decades since, Like this is a reboot essentially, even though
well I mean is it though, I mean to your point, yeah,
it's it's sort of a continuation, but in a way, yes,
new cast, new era. And so this just seems like
a weird story to begin with, weird tone to begin with,

(17:53):
Like I don't even know what a sequel would look like.
To this, like yeah, yeah, right, yeah, Now this was
the same year as Batman Begins, right.

Speaker 1 (18:06):
Or years later? This was one year later?

Speaker 2 (18:08):
Yeah, okay, so just trying to put it in a
timeline in my brain.

Speaker 1 (18:12):
Yeah, but if I'm not mistaken, I believe there was
a teaser for this attached to Batman Begins. Okay, Yeah,
but they both came out in June, so it was
five and o six, you know, And it's worth recognizing,
you know, Batman Begins did okay, but it wasn't like
a smash hit, right, like we forget that. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (18:35):
I was looking just at box office stats and this
outgrossed Superman returns out gross Batman Begins.

Speaker 1 (18:42):
That's right, Which is interesting because.

Speaker 2 (18:44):
The Nolan Batman would then, you know, change the course
of superhero movies for years and years to come.

Speaker 1 (18:51):
Yeah, just didn't know it yet. Well, and that's somewhat
ironic to me, Like when you watch Batman Begins, that
is very much a spirit ritual air to the Richard
Donner Superman. Yeah, and Christopher Nolan said as much. Right,
the Donner Superman informed how he approached telling the story,

(19:12):
who he cast, etcetera, etcetera. Right, Right, And and I
going into this is worth recognizing there was a lot
of enthusiasm because Brian Singer had this is pre knowing
what a sex predator he is. Yeah, so I mean
that we have to sprinkle that into that. You know,
we have new contexts now.

Speaker 2 (19:32):
I have to say I was carrying that with me
as I was watching this and just second guessing things.
Some things I was looking at just.

Speaker 1 (19:39):
Yeah, yeah, by the real quick before I even continue.
So we get Marlon Brando here, and there was a
there was a settlement between Warner Brothers and the Brando
estate to the tune of something like fifteen million dollars
to be able to use Brando's likeness both here and
in the RICHERD Donner edit of Superman two. So that's
why we see Brando here, and his.

Speaker 2 (20:00):
Estate was refusing, and so they that was the amount
that they came up with to be able to use it.

Speaker 1 (20:06):
Yeah. Yeah, And by virtue of Brando being in this
movie and even Marie Saint being in this movie. This
is the second movie they made together after you know,
on the waterfront. On the waterfront. Yeah, yes, so I
don't know, just a little little trivia. Yeah, wow, you

(20:27):
might try putting Superman in turns in your cinema tricks
and see what happens.

Speaker 2 (20:30):
I've oh, wow, wow, you just that this is the
first moment I've gotten excited dealing with this film.

Speaker 1 (20:40):
No so so. Yeah. But Brian Singer, on the back
of X Men and X two, he had a lot
of fanboy enthusiasm, right, I can imagine yeah, right, and
he bolted the third X Men to do this, and
people were upset about that. But it was like, oh,
but he's doing Superman, and Superman was what he was
always the fan of. He wasn't a fan of X Men,

(21:02):
and I've just watched his X Men movies in the
last few weeks. I'm like, they are still good. So
I'm like, maybe those movies benefited from him not being
a fan, you know, sure, sure, But I've said often
like he sort of he dealt body blows to both
franchises X Men and Superman by leaving one for the other.

(21:24):
I mean, I have to say to give him, look,
I mean, yes, this is like the broad statement about him.
He's a creep and it's terrible.

Speaker 2 (21:33):
Yes, just strictly speaking, watching this film, I mean, it's
a gorgeous movie.

Speaker 1 (21:38):
I agree. Yeah, that's a great shot, beautifully shot.

Speaker 2 (21:41):
Yeah, it's It's that though, is one of its strengths
and also maybe one of its weaknesses.

Speaker 1 (21:49):
It also reminded me sort of like someone who.

Speaker 2 (21:54):
Knows they're attractive and keeps staring at themselves in the mirror.
That's kind of what it feels like. Watch this movie
a little bit, do you know what I'm saying? Like, Look,
so this movie's over two and a half hours. I
would say it has under two hours of story.

Speaker 1 (22:10):
I definitely agree with that.

Speaker 2 (22:11):
Yeah, but the photography, the shots, the shot lengths, the editing,
whatever I mean generously, you could say it's reverential feeling
and not so generous, kind of languid. You know, it's
very in love with its look. It feels like, and
I would say somewhat understandably because it is beautiful. I

(22:31):
kept thinking over and over, like, this is very beautiful,
Like it looks like a lot of paintings come to
life off but they just didn't have the sense to
trim some of it down and make it move maybe
a better speed.

Speaker 1 (22:47):
Well, I remember watching this the first time, and you
know that as he's running through the cornfield and he
jumps in the air and the music crescendos and it's
the Smallville music written by John Williams, you know that
John Ottman has used and you know, I I you know,
it made me feel a certain way, you know, sure,
and it just reminds me of how this movie, this
movie was part of my you Can't Go Home Again

(23:09):
trifecta in the in the aughts.

Speaker 2 (23:12):
Okay, okay, well, I think I know one of the others.
What are they?

Speaker 1 (23:15):
Well, we had there was Planet of the Apes in
two thousand and one. Yep, that's the one. Yeah, uh,
and then there was this in O six, and then
in eight you and I had a shared experience of
course of Indiana Jones and.

Speaker 3 (23:31):
The Crystal Skull, and it was yeah, yeah, I Between
those three it was literally like, you know, it's You're
never gonna have that same experience with something new, so
just cherish what you have with what's.

Speaker 1 (23:46):
Already there, you know. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:48):
I mean, I've often said that Kingdom of the Crystal
Skull was the there is No Santa Claus moment of
my adult life I've since, you know, I've oft and
on it.

Speaker 1 (24:00):
I still say of it.

Speaker 2 (24:01):
But when it's on TV or something I'll stop on it,
but I will never forget seeing that in the theater
with you and Sean. And I literally felt like I
was waking from a dream, like I had not just
actually literally seen what I had seen.

Speaker 1 (24:17):
And I remember real real quick by if I don't
know if you can see on the sill there we
missed it, but there's a picture of Glenn Ford. Yeah,
right there, Glenn Ford as Jonathan Kent, right next to
the graduation picture. Ah, little little nod to the continuity. Yeah, anyway,
I'm sorry, go ahead.

Speaker 2 (24:32):
No, no, no, that's all. I just I sharing that moment
with you. It was very surreal.

Speaker 1 (24:36):
Yeah, and honestly it was. It was helpful in a way, right,
it really was.

Speaker 2 (24:41):
I mean I think it it had to happen.

Speaker 1 (24:44):
It had to happen, and it that's that's what I realized,
was like, you know, you're you're sort of chasing that high.
And you know, I went into this movie with just
an armload of anticipation and expectation, not merely that it
it was a new Superman movie after so long, but
that it was meant to continue on from those ones

(25:07):
that I loved so much, you know, right, and and
you know, it's it. It doesn't really do that right,
and and it I wasn't alone in that reaction like that.
That's been sort of interesting because to your point, like
the movie did relatively okay, and I feel like it
was a lot of like it's still good, it's still good,

(25:30):
and then you realize like it's not. It's not a
movie you really feel compelled to go back to.

Speaker 2 (25:35):
Yeah, which is a terrible way to kick off what
you hope is, Yeah, you know, a new start to
the a reinvigoration of the series for a new decade.

Speaker 1 (25:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (25:45):
But you know it's funny because I saw yeah, Rotten Tomatoes,
it's somewhere in the seventies. Yeah, And I was like, yeah,
that feels about right, because I can't say I like
out and out dislike it either.

Speaker 1 (25:57):
I mean, it is I don't know.

Speaker 2 (26:00):
Maybe it is the visuals for me carrying me, because
I did like looking at it, yeah, you know, and
there are some nice moments in it, but it's just
not something that I would want to watch over and
over and it's certainly not a promising start to like
a new trilogy or something.

Speaker 1 (26:17):
Yeah. I think I think the mistake is in try
you know again you want to wrap your premise around
this this very heavy idea of like what does it
mean to have Superman and to not have Superman? And
and you're also trying to get a franchise going again,
and I just don't I think I think those those

(26:40):
cross purposes don't work. Well.

Speaker 2 (26:43):
Yeah, because we you mentioned this earlier, I'm sure we'll
get more into it, but there's not a huge spark
between Clark and Lewis. And then also we have this
like child at the end where it's.

Speaker 1 (26:54):
Like what do we do with that? Right?

Speaker 2 (26:56):
You know, it's just it just yeah, it feels like
someone had a bunch of ideas and made the movie
but wasn't concerned with where it was going to go next.

Speaker 1 (27:04):
That's that's exactly Hanny and Worth mentioning. By the way,
Sam Huntington as Jimmy Olsen, he's having the most fun
in this movie. Yeah, I would with some more of
that energy would have been Yeah, absolutely right. Franklin Jella,
who is a tremendous actor. I feel like he wandered
onto the set and wandered off the set right like,
I don't know if he knew the cameras were rolling

(27:26):
you know.

Speaker 2 (27:27):
I made a note that it was basically like, if
it wasn't played by Franklin Jella, you would forget this
character was in the movie absolutely, Like he's only is
memorable because it's him, that's whatever he brings just as himself.

Speaker 1 (27:44):
So originally they had cast Hugh Laurie. I can see that, right,
And this was when House was going, so you picture
him at being the curmudgeon le doctor House type, you know.
And wasn't Brian Singer producer on House? Yeah? I think
he directed the pilot. Yeah, and he was an EP
on it. Yeah, So that was probab why And I
think I think the television schedule prevented that. But when
when you hear Franklin Jelly, you're like, oh, okay, I

(28:06):
can see that, right, But like, but he doesn't have
any of Jackie Cooper's energy, you know, you know you
pickedure Jackie. What's everybody's standing around for? Right? You know?
Like that that that kind of lovable, but like in
the thick of it, you know, yep. The The other
thing is Brandon Routh is I think Brandon Routh is

(28:27):
good in this movie. I don't think he's great in
this movie. And and it's mainly because of stuff that's
kind of out of his hands, right Number one, that
the script doesn't give either Superman or Clark a ton
to do. And the other thing is he was explicitly
instructed like play Christopher Reeves Clark, you know, and so

(28:50):
it's forcing these comparisons, right Like when when you think
about it, one of the best things possible for the
James Bond franchise was that Roger Moore was about as
different from Sean Connery as could be. Yeah, right, so
like you kind of just had to reset your brain

(29:11):
and be like, oh, this is this is somebody different, right,
And I think what got route the gig is his
resemblance to Christopher Reeve. But unfortunately, and it's not his fault,
but it forces that comparison.

Speaker 2 (29:25):
Yeah, yeah, and he's just kind of missing that when
it's so close you're like, oh.

Speaker 1 (29:29):
But it's missing the twinkle in his own.

Speaker 2 (29:31):
You know, just those little Yeah, you're right, it's unfair
if they just let him be a bit.

Speaker 1 (29:35):
More, I mean the ironic thing. And the other thing.
I mean, he was very young at the time, and
I think he needed to ferment a little bit because
he he got to play Superman again a few years
ago during that cw DC mini series that they did,
Crisis on Infinite Rates, and man, he was terrific in that.
Oh that's great. Yeah. I pulled up his scenes again

(29:56):
after watching this, just a resort of remind itself, like, no, no,
he's very good. Mm hmm. And so you know he
did need to get a few years under his belt,
you know. Sure. Yeah. By the way, that's such like
a weird, gross detail about the two dogs with the
other dog, I know, yeah, it's like why it's so odd? Yeah. So,

(30:19):
so cal Penn is there, like, you know, hiding wordlessly
throughout this film, and you know you're kind of like,
is that is that cal Pen?

Speaker 2 (30:30):
I remember that when it was released and thinking like,
oh cool, I like this guy, and then realizing he
was going to be like silent the entire movie.

Speaker 1 (30:40):
So apparently his character there there, there is backstory that
that was written and I believe filmed that he is
a disgraced Daily Planet science reporter who worked with Lex
to plant a story that Krypton is still out there. Yes,
and and that's what Superman off off world.

Speaker 2 (31:03):
Yeah, and I saw that that is included in the
video game apparently tied with this, like that, oh interesting,
I think Krypton's discovery was a hoax And I was
like that makes me feel worse.

Speaker 1 (31:14):
Yeah, yeah, so depressing. Depressing on so many levels because again,
it just goes back to something fundamental that, especially in
this universe where there is only Superman, he is the
only hero. You know, the idea that Superman would would
would leave Earth unprotected, you know, doesn't make sense to me.

Speaker 2 (31:40):
Yeah, and just that he would leave for five years. Yeah,
and then to learn that it was just based on
a lie. I don't know it, just this, how can
this movie make me feel more?

Speaker 1 (31:50):
Well? Well? And the fact that that it's not intrinsic
to the plot mm hmm right, it's not like he
comes back to Earth and he he reckons with that
and and you know, like it's something essential because here
here's the point. I think I've said this before, Like
you could have had Superman trapped in the Phantom Zone

(32:10):
for five years, sure, yeah, and it would be unwillingly
And he's worked for five years to come back, and
he comes back and he finds out the world has
moved on without him. Well that's more interesting, absolutely, And
it sets up more areas for your story to go
because who who put him there? Are they coming back after?
You know what I mean? Yep, this Ultimately, it's just

(32:34):
it wanted to make a It wanted to make a
meta commentary about how long Superman had not been in
movies essentially and make the point that no, but we
need Superman, right, which it feels like every couple of
years the movies are doing that, like you know, Man
of Steel is doing that, No, no, but we need Superman,
and then now this new movie we need Superman. It's like,
I believe you, you're right, I'm on board. I co

(32:57):
signed your conclusion. But we don't need to keep saying it,
you know, yeah, like just just make a Superman movie.

Speaker 2 (33:05):
It was sort of like we recently were talking about
the Jurassic Park movies, where it feels like the filmmakers
constantly need to be like, now, we know you've seen
dinosaurs since nineteen ninety three, and it's not gonna be enough.
So we're gonna have all our characters be like, oh
ho home, I'm bored with dinosaurs. So we're gonna make
a bigger dinosaur because like we're ahead of you. We
know you're already bored, and I'm always like, no, I'm not.

(33:26):
I'm here because I like dinosaurs. Yeah, it just feels
like this overthink, Yeah they do. So that's a cameo, right.

Speaker 1 (33:37):
Yeah, yeah, I meant to mention so Bo the bartender.
That is Jack Larson. He played Jimmy Olsen in the
in the George Reeves television series. So both of those actors,
Noel O'Neil and he have passed away since then. I
at this point, you know, there is no one left
alive who was on the Adventure of Superman television show, sure,

(33:58):
which is one of those weird things. I was watching
I Love Lucy yesterday and you realize, like everybody's gone, Yeah,
this is all that exists, you know, and there's something
sobering about it is weird. Yeah. That was Richard Branson,
by the way, as one of the astronauts. Oh really, yeah,
because it's it's yeah, you can shoot you can see it.

(34:21):
Yeah right there. Oh, how funny. I didn't know that.
So okay, by the Peter Wilson as the flight attendant
or you know, the whatever the yeah right there, okay, Ay,
she was like a bigger name back then when you
say that name, it rings a bell, And even seeing her,

(34:43):
I felt like, do I ever do I know who
that is? But I don't. It's on the tip of
my She was on La fem Nikita right in the
in the nineties, I think, on the USA say yeah, yeah, okay, okay,
and she was in legal extoring gentlemen. Anyway. My point
is she could have been Lois Lane. Okay, wait, so
not a Kate Bosworth. So I'm just gonna say, Kate Bosworth,

(35:08):
who you know? I've seen her be fine and other stuff.
She was in no way suited for this film. The
script did her dirty, but she just she just does
not did not have the chops to play the role
in any way that may that makes Lois in any
way compelling mm hmm. And and I think it's it's

(35:32):
the it's calamitous casting because she doesn't evoke any of
the the spunk of Margot Kidder. So to make us
be like, oh, it's the same character. She looks younger
than Margot Kidder.

Speaker 2 (35:45):
Right right, Yeah, I read that she's only sixteen years
older than the boy.

Speaker 1 (35:50):
Yes, that's so odd, right, yeah, Like why do that?
Why why deliberately put a clock on your premise, that's
this is set X number of years after what we've
already seen, sure, and then go younger. Right, So none

(36:10):
of what they give Lois to do is particularly effective.
There's no chemistry between her and Superman. There's no sense
of she's like kind of a dick to Clark. Yeah, yeah,
it's super weird.

Speaker 2 (36:29):
I thought the same thing, and well it did make
me wonder then what does he see in her?

Speaker 4 (36:33):
Right?

Speaker 1 (36:34):
You know, someone who would be so cruel.

Speaker 2 (36:36):
I mean, you know, sometimes she can just be like,
oh Clark in the other versions, but here she seems
rude to him.

Speaker 1 (36:43):
That's I mean, again, this goes to what I was
saying before, Like, okay, let's take you at your premise.
This is the sequel to Superman one and two. We've
seen those movies. We see how Lois and Clark are together,
even when she doesn't know he's Superman. She's very sweet
to him. Yeah, she's not like hey, creep, you know

(37:04):
or whatever. Price So it's very weird, you know. Yeah,
Like like when you watch when you watch Lois and
Clark in their Daily Planet scenes in Superman two, it's
it's amusing. It's you know, they have bantered together and
she she's the issue is not like she doesn't have
any time for Clarke. It's just she views him like
a brother, but she's affectionate to him like a brother, right,

(37:27):
you know what I mean? Right? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (37:31):
Yeah, yeah, so yeah, yeah, I was, I was curious.
I mean, Keith Bosworth is kind of interesting, like I'm
looking her up now, like Blue Crush of course comes to.

Speaker 1 (37:40):
Mind, like put her on the map.

Speaker 2 (37:42):
Yeah, and then I forgot about twenty one but the
math co.

Speaker 1 (37:46):
Oh yeah with Kevin Spacey right, oh wow, yeah, see
I've seen all these when a date with Tad Hamilton,
but they're very much of an era. Didn't wasn't she
in that other Kevin Spacey movie, The Oh yeah, that's
what got her this role.

Speaker 2 (38:00):
Apparently he recommended her. Oh really Across the Sea.

Speaker 1 (38:03):
Across the Sea, that's right. Yeah, he came in saying
you should cast and Spacey we should say, I mean
he he okay again another sex predator, right, which makes
a movie hard to watch, But he got the gig
on the back of having one an oscar working with
Brian Singer previously on Usual Suspects.

Speaker 2 (38:25):
Yeah, yeah, which is it's kind of easy to forget
Usual Suspects.

Speaker 1 (38:28):
That was such.

Speaker 2 (38:29):
A you know, a iconic movie of the nineties, right,
and you forget that Chris McQuary, yeah, and Brian Singer
are the creative forces behind that, right, because now you
think of McQuary and Mission Impossible and Singer and these
superhero movies. Yea, let alone his personal problems. But right, like,

(38:54):
it just seems that movie feels like it sort of
stands on its own as his own little iconic thing.

Speaker 1 (38:59):
But I always forget that those two were involved with that.
It's interesting, well, it's it's sort of like the Dawn
of the Dead remake from four, which is written by
James Gunn and directed by Zack Snyder. Perfect comparison. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (39:14):
I'd like to rewatch Usual Suspects again because I remember
it was such a That was when I was really
getting in the movies, and I'd never seen a mind
blowing twist like that before, and I just thought it
was so incredible. I'd be curious to see how it
holds up all these years later.

Speaker 1 (39:30):
I think. I think for me, what continues to be
the most memorable part of the Usual Suspects is the
parody of the Revelation scene when it wrongfully accused with
Leslie Nielsen, with Leslie Nielsen, which cracks me up to
this day. Yeah. Yeah, So this this opening, uh, the

(39:50):
re intro sequence of Superman is is meant to echo,
you know, the helicopter scene in the original film. First
of all, Lois should be like a fine paste based
on how much she's she's whipped around this cabin.

Speaker 2 (40:05):
I get that they need to make her stand out, yeah,
in this catastrophe, but it almost borders on parody. How
many shots we get of her whipping around and smashing
into the wall, smashing into the ceiling, smashing into the floor,
like it almost does become like a naked gun sort of.

Speaker 1 (40:23):
It's so funny.

Speaker 4 (40:24):
Yeah, And then that it's kind of an interesting moment
when she's on the ceiling has the free fall and
that guy's looking at her right, but they keep like
cutting back and forth and back to that shot.

Speaker 2 (40:37):
So instead of becoming this weird shared moment between two
people in peril, it almost feels like, well, help her, dude,
reach out your hand.

Speaker 1 (40:47):
Okay, So this right here, this is and we hear
this is where we hear the crescendo of the John
Williams Superman theme. Yeah, and what I realized rewatching is
those are the only moments when my heart kind of
starts to be a little faster, right, sure, which is
a problem. Now we see Superman finally in all his
glory here, and what you realize is that this is

(41:07):
an absolutely ghastly Superman costume.

Speaker 2 (41:11):
Okay, yeah, tell me about it.

Speaker 1 (41:13):
Well, it's it's it's weird how I described it, It's
like a Timu Superman costume. Okay, because it's like they
got they managed to get everything just a little bit wrong. Okay,
so collectively it just looks bad, right right, So like

(41:37):
number one, the colors are way too dark, so instead
of bright red, it's like maroon, right, the blue and
the red they don't go together, right, Okay, The neckline
is too high, the S symbol is too small. Yes,
I even thought that the trunks are too small and

(41:58):
too low not shot again. Yeah, we'll see when when
when the thing lands and the boots are too big? Yeah,
and and and there's says everywhere, oh is that you know?

Speaker 2 (42:11):
I saw something about that online and I wasn't sure
if that was true or not.

Speaker 1 (42:15):
So there they're okay. Well number one, there's like the
S on the belt buckle, there's s's on his boots.
The costume is printed screen printed with s's. Okay, that's yeah,
that's what I saw.

Speaker 2 (42:26):
Yeah, I just saw a bunch of little mini s's.

Speaker 1 (42:28):
Yeah, And I'm like, dude, like it worked, like the
thing that was there, Like all you had to do
was just modernize the reef suit a little bit.

Speaker 2 (42:39):
Well, now this comes after years of attempted uh new
Superman movies, right, I mean Tim Burton of course, famously,
Brett Rattner, all these other things. And there's all these stories.
I mean, the one I know most famously is from
Kevin Smith. Yeah, and he was involved in the script.
But it seems like there was a lot of a

(43:01):
pushback against the costume from producers at least yeah, thinking
that maybe in this day and age, we need to
rethink it or modernize it or get rid of the
cape or so do you feel like this is a
compromise then, Where Singer was like no, no, no, we
get the trunks, we.

Speaker 1 (43:14):
Get the boots, we get the cape.

Speaker 2 (43:15):
But they're like, all right, well then it can't be bright,
it can't look like what we know from a sunny
comic book. It has to look muted, you know, darker
colors because it's more serious and realistic. I mean, do
you think that that's what we're looking at here?

Speaker 1 (43:32):
That's entirely possible. Yeah, it's odd though, right, like, because
what you end up with is a very odd looking
Superman suit. Sure, but real quick though, I love this
when he's landing the plane and we get this like
this force wave like I was just going to call
that out, and when the cone crunches in his hand

(43:54):
from the force. Yeah, like you can imagine a version
where it's like, no, he just stops the plane and
sets it down. But I love the sort of physics
of it. They grapple with the physics of the whole process.
I think it's super cool. And really this sequence right here,
so about about forty minutes in is the the excitement
highlight of the movie. Yeah, yeah, without a doubt. Right, So,

(44:18):
so look at you. You can see the shot that
we get of the suit here. Oh yeah, yeah, the
low trunks. I see that it's so low, right, and
what it does it makes his midsection look weirdly stretched
out and thin. If the Brandon Routh is a big,
tall guy, right, so why wouldn't you build the suit
to highlight that, tokecentuate it, you know, Yeah, I do.

Speaker 2 (44:43):
I mean I want to call out the moments that
I like, and I do like this. Yeah, I heard
seeing him for the first time after you know, stopping
the plane in the middle of a baseball stadium and
then them clearly sharing a moment with one another, and
everyone doing the sort of swivel in their seats, like
watching them react to each other back and forth.

Speaker 1 (45:02):
That's good moment. See. So this here where everybody starts cheering, Like,
I wonder would that be the way people react if
he's just been gone for five years? Right? And I'm
not even like I I genuinely like, I wonder, in
this day and age, in this cynical age that we're in,

(45:27):
would people be as excited when at first I wasn't sure. Yeah,
And I think because.

Speaker 2 (45:35):
It's at the very least, I mean, he stopped a
plane from crashing into the stadium, so there's probably a
collective relief or something like.

Speaker 1 (45:42):
Hey, hey, how about this, why don't you take the
plane with you? You dick.

Speaker 2 (45:45):
I will never forget that you made that point back
in two thousand and six, and I've never forgot it.
So now they got to get like a construction career
in theresemb it would take.

Speaker 1 (45:56):
Next to no effort for him to just wait till
everybody exits here, let me get this out of here,
continue your game. No, no, no, he's got to be
a dick about it. Not only did I leave for
five years because I'm a dick for yeah yeah, yeah,
sorry you were saying, well, no, but you're right.

Speaker 2 (46:13):
I mean, especially in this so social media TikTok whatever age,
like everyone would have a hot take, you know, yeah, yeah,
be a lot more cynical and question everything.

Speaker 1 (46:23):
And I will say the twenty twenty five model definitely
leans into the idea of social media as a factor
in how people deal with with superhumans. You know, so
I think, oh, okay, I mean it makes sense. It
absolutely does. Yeah. Now now this here. I remember when
this movie came out, there was controversy because Perry White says,

(46:46):
is he still for truth, justice, all that stuff? Instead
of the American way? Instead of the American way. And
this is nineteen years ago. There's all this controversy Fox News.
You know, I'm not kidding you. Know, and then and
then now you know, we've got new controversy because you know,
James Gunn is like, you know, Superman is an immigrant
and he shows how you know, and Fox News going

(47:07):
after it again, and I'm like a bitch, nothing changes. Yeah, yeah,
you know, I.

Speaker 2 (47:24):
Gotta say, it's kind of a weird ironic thing. But
watching this on my iPad right now, it looks so
much better, smaller.

Speaker 1 (47:31):
That's interesting. Yeah, lesmeary looking. Yeah, this is something about
the brown and it's just the color palette is so muted.
You know. One thing I loved about The Daily Planet
in those first two movies is how how real it felt.
It felt like all the President's men.

Speaker 2 (47:49):
Yes, yes, yeah, you know, yeah, I mean I sort
of get it.

Speaker 1 (47:55):
Norman Rockwell is not the right direct comparison, but some
sort of warm Americana, painterly sort of that's what. That's
what this feels like. But you do that for the
Smallville stuff, right, that's what that?

Speaker 2 (48:08):
Oh yeah, sure, sure that's a good point. Yeah, this
is like big city here.

Speaker 1 (48:13):
I mean, I I this kid, by the way, is adorable.
He is so cute.

Speaker 2 (48:17):
He's the only kid I've ever I was thinking this
last Night. They keep making these home alone sequels and
the kid is always wrong. That's why mcaulay culkin is
like a miracle of casting, right, you know what I mean?
They always just feel it's sort I always say it's
about Fairs Bueller. You push him like one degree in
this direction.

Speaker 1 (48:34):
He's a dick. You get series? What's that? You get
Ferris Bueller the series? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (48:39):
Yeah, he's like this miracle of casting where he's just
kind of cool and likable. Anyway, this kid, I was like, oh,
if I saw this kid in a home alone movie,
I'd be rooting for him.

Speaker 1 (48:49):
See this here where it's like awkward and like, oh
what the kids are hug I'm like what, it doesn't
make any sense. I'm like, why why would you not?
Why would you not try to make Lois as warm
as possible?

Speaker 2 (49:02):
Yeah, yeah, well your friend is back after five years
and she's treating him kind of like an afterthought.

Speaker 1 (49:07):
It's so baffling to me because if we're supposed to
feel something about the idea that Lois has moved on
a why would she not have moved on? Right? Of
course she would because Superman left without saying anything, and
you know the movie doesn't know what it wants us

(49:28):
to feel about any of it. The other thing, by
the way, is that her husband or her boyfriend, Richard
played by James Martsina, is like a really good guy.
Mm hmm. Yeah. So you're also like, hey, Superman, why
don't you just like leave him alone? Man?

Speaker 2 (49:43):
I know, I know, yeah, it adds to that, like, yeah,
it's sort of melancholy feeling that I don't want to
be feeling when I'm watching a Superman movie.

Speaker 1 (49:52):
Right. Well, you know, Brian Singer, he talked about this
movie retrospectively. He's like, you know, we were we weren't
really going for the super Here audience. We were going
for the Devil wors Prada audience.

Speaker 2 (50:03):
I don't even know what that means.

Speaker 1 (50:05):
Yeah, and right, I'm like, well, then don't make Superman.
Brian Singer, not all.

Speaker 2 (50:14):
But also like I like Devil wors product, like it's
a that's an upbeat movie.

Speaker 1 (50:19):
Yeah. Well, and and I think he made that comparison
because they they were like they came out the same weekend.
I think. Okay, so I suppose he wanted to get
the girls in and yeah, I'm saying, like, is he
basically what he's trying to say, just he's trying to
make a movie for women. It's odd though, right, because yeah,
I mean women watched the original Superman. Yeah, they were

(50:43):
swept up in the fantasy of flying with Chris Chris Reeve.
You know. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (50:48):
But to your point, I mean, okay, so you want
to maybe plus up the relationship dynamics in the story, Okay,
that's cool. But like you said, yeah, James Martin's kind
of a nice guy, and it's kind it becomes almost
stalkerly the way that Superman just hangs out at their
house and stares through the walls and even like creeps
into the boy's bedroom at one point, and that's I

(51:11):
don't think that that relates to what it says he's aiming.

Speaker 1 (51:14):
For, right, I mean. Marsden is like straight up the
most heroic person in this movie.

Speaker 2 (51:20):
Yeah, he has no powers and he risks everything.

Speaker 1 (51:22):
He is actively placing himself in harm's way for no
reason other than doing the right thing. He's just a
good guy by the way. Marsden, you know, he he
he has a very abbreviated role in X Men three
because of his role in this one. So he like
shows up in the beginning of X Men three, He's like, hey,

(51:43):
how do you guys get out of here? Wolverine? And
then and then he dies.

Speaker 2 (51:49):
It's basically by the way, I love this moment again
calling out the moments I do.

Speaker 1 (51:53):
Like why does she why does she react like that?

Speaker 2 (51:58):
No, I agree, I don't like her reaction, but I
love her just like Hi, like nodding across the elevator
and him like yeah hi.

Speaker 1 (52:05):
She's so like, oh you hi, I know, I know see.
And again this goes to directing, like this is this
is about the how she is told to play the role. Sure, yeah,
And I'm like, if nothing else, we have to buy
into the warmth of Lois Lane as a person because
we have to, Like, fundamentally, she is the person who,

(52:29):
in any incarnation, is the one who who Clark, this
god from across the stars, says, I want to live
a normal life with this person. Yeah, we have to
buy that. You know. That's one thing. You know, when
you and I when we watched the Loewso and Clark
television pilot, it's like you just you get it right away.

(52:51):
Why Clark would just fall head over heels for her.

Speaker 2 (52:53):
Yep, you know, yeah, I mean this is a By
the time this drops, the new Superman will be out.
So can you at least briefly comment on how the
relationship works in that one. I mean, did you like
it Lewis and Clark?

Speaker 1 (53:08):
I loved it great. I think Rachel Brosnahan is fantastic. Okay, fantastic.
She is fantastic. Yeah, and they they spark together. And
I think it helps that I watched that less than
twenty four hours after watching this. Sure, you know, yeah,
and it again, it is a shame, but it gets

(53:28):
to it feels to me like I'm watching kids cosplay
m even Ruth Ruth Ralph well because he's he's having
to coseplay as Christopher Reeves Clark Kent.

Speaker 2 (53:43):
Sure, sure, but I was just thinking about the kids thing,
like does he feel little too?

Speaker 1 (53:47):
I guess you did say that he doesn't feel as
he he yeah, And I don't know if I felt
that at the time, because he's like roughly our age, probably.

Speaker 2 (53:56):
Right, yeah, I think, oh yeah, I think almost exactly.
He's I want to say, twenty six in this movie.

Speaker 1 (54:03):
Okay, So you know that's just a weird thing because
Christopher Reeve was younger than that when he was Superman.

Speaker 2 (54:10):
Yeah, but it's that weird phenomenon, right, people from the seventies, eighties, whatever,
they just looked so much older.

Speaker 1 (54:15):
Yeah. So I don't know how kids would have perceived
Brandon Rout in this. Yeah, but I definitely like when
you when you look at him in Crisis a few
years ago, it's it's like he he had aged into
it in the right way. Sure. Sure, see the neckline

(54:35):
being like right by his neck, that that I've never
liked that. I think I think Superman's neckl line should
be a little bit lower. I don't even like in
the new movie how they give him a collar. I
don't like that. Oh yeah, yeah, I don't want to
see it. Oh yeah, it looks like a costume that
you would buy from from Target or something, you know.

Speaker 2 (54:55):
Yeah yeah, I mean I noticed the darker colors and
it's just like, what but the S was bothering me.

Speaker 1 (55:02):
Besides, of the S should, in my opinion, you know,
it should sprawl out on his chest a little more
because it makes the chest look bigger. Yeah. See, there's
something about this scene I think. I think it's an
interesting scene. And here's the thing. I think Marsden is
good in it. I think when I watch Kate Bosworth,

(55:24):
I feel like I'm watching like a fan film, like
a Superman fan film, Yeah, with with actors who are
not professionals and they're trying God bless them. Interesting. Now, No,
why do you say that specifically? There's this one line
where he's like, did you love him? And she's like,
he's Superman, everybody loved him. I'm like that, I just

(55:47):
get fan film energy from that. Interesting. Yeah, And I
feel bad. I don't mean to pick on Kate Bosworth.
I think she was done dirty by the script and
the direction. Yeah, yeah, I can see that, you know, Like, like,
here's my point. This is this is what I'm saying.
I think she's speaking. This is exactly she's speaking with

(56:14):
within a level of like world weariness, of like experience
that bilies. You know, she's a kid here, you know. Sure. Yeah,
so it doesn't feel authentic to me. Yeah, so that's
why you age it up. You go with somebody in
their in their thirties, God forbid? Right, right, I mean

(56:38):
you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (56:40):
Yeah, Yeah, yeah, there's I mean this movie is kind
of about like lost love, longing, whatever. I just yeah,
I'm not feeling it the way I think the movie
wanted me to. Yeah, and that that that's a good point,
Like I'm not seeing that on her face, and maybe
her face is too young to be able to express.

Speaker 1 (57:00):
To be able to authentically embody it. Yeah. You know,
like you know, if if Chris Reeve had not had
his accident, you know, I mean, like how different things
might have been, right, But you can imagine a scenario
where say in two thousand and five or two thousand

(57:20):
and six, he he comes back and plays a slightly
older Superman. Yeah, and that would like going through these
beats would have been interesting with with somebody like say
Chris Reeve at that age. Do you know what I'm saying?
Absolutely yeah, because because it's like, well, we know him,

(57:43):
and we've been through this journey and and you know,
the the loneliness he feels or whatever. It's like, we
feel an empathetic connection. I don't. I think this movie
is essentially saying, oh, we want you to view the
story through the lens of all of that emotional connection.
But it doesn't resemble that movie in any meaningful way.

(58:07):
M hm. Right, Like when you think about it esthetically,
the only thing that connects this movie to those other ones?
Is the Fortress of Solitude? Yeah? Nothing else? Yeah, so
we have that and the music.

Speaker 2 (58:21):
Yeah, I mean I think that goes back to one
of the first things I said, where this If this
was the second movie, yeah, in a series, I.

Speaker 1 (58:28):
Would be able to buy into it more.

Speaker 2 (58:30):
Because I need all of this that we're supposed to
be feeling as a result of something that need to
be established earlier for me. Yeah, you know, seeing any
sort of connection between Clark and Lewis, Yeah, yeah, I agree,
And then I would be able to clock or buy
into the sadness of this one because I already got
to experience that with them.

Speaker 1 (58:50):
One hundred percent. Yeah. This is one of the few
moments I remember it also. Yeah, this is a big
trailer moment when when we get like the bullet and
the Eye.

Speaker 2 (59:00):
Doesn't this look very Wachowski like very much so like
the Cops and there's sort of generic looking outfits.

Speaker 1 (59:06):
They look very like Matrix, Like you give me your
jurism diction craft exactly.

Speaker 2 (59:13):
Yes, I feel like this resembles that, and we're not
far off from I don't doubt that it was inspired
by that.

Speaker 1 (59:19):
You know. The other thing to think about is that
this movie came out relatively close to nine to eleven. Yeah,
that's right, and one wonders I remember in fact, where
Brian Singer talked about he thought about having a shot
where Superman is at ground zero and thank goodness they

(59:40):
didn't put that in.

Speaker 2 (59:41):
Yeah, sort of like, oh, if I hadn't left, maybe
I couldn't have stopped this. I mean, that's just gross
on so many levels.

Speaker 1 (59:48):
So many levels exactly, a real life tragedy like that,
that's exactly it. But but one presumes that maybe that's
part of the reason you built, you bake in this
five year time that he's gone, because at least, you
know metatextually, you're able to be like, oh, like that's
why Superman didn't stop nine to eleven and his Earth
you know.

Speaker 2 (01:00:08):
Sure, yeah, yeah, because we're it's it's closer, yeah, in
time in our mind.

Speaker 1 (01:00:12):
Like it's weird to think about, right because because at
this point nine to eleven is it's just history, m m.
But at this time it's still informed so much of
our day to day discourse. You know, yeah, yeah, how
we plugged into two media and all, you know what.

Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
I mean, absolutely, I remember there was a time Well,
this is the thing, right, I mean, this was a
big trailer moment.

Speaker 1 (01:00:32):
It's the trailer shot, the bullet being shot. It's pretty
cool shot, although I would offer I don't know if
it's as impressive given that it comes right after him
taking like like five hundred bullets in his chest, you know,
from like a mini gun. Yeah, but it's it's a
it's a good trailer moment. That guy by the way,

(01:00:52):
you know, because they had plans to make a sequel,
and Brian Singer had said that the sequel would have
revealed that guy who who makes that shot, that's John Corbin,
who is the Superman villain Metallo. Mm hmm. This is
the sequel that of course not not to be. But yeah, anyway,
you were saying, sorry, well not just about the nine

(01:01:13):
to eleven thing.

Speaker 2 (01:01:14):
I remember when it was closer in years to that,
I remember thinking, how would you make a time travel
movie now, because you just have it on your mind, like, well,
you've got to go warn everybody. But now I think
enough time has passed it that wouldn't be one of
the first thoughts in your mind, Like you said, it's
become a part of history.

Speaker 1 (01:01:34):
Yeah, so weird right like time.

Speaker 2 (01:01:42):
You know, this, this whole thing with Parker Posey and the.

Speaker 1 (01:01:45):
These guys are the writers, by the way, right they
wrote X two also, so they just they went over.
They just jumped over with them. Damn they look very young,
they really so.

Speaker 2 (01:02:04):
Yeah, Parker Porte, this whole thing, just the way that
it's shot and the way that it's cut. I was like,
this is very uh like kinetic, but also.

Speaker 1 (01:02:13):
Unnerving in a good way.

Speaker 2 (01:02:15):
Like I mean that as a compliment, like the way
it has some energy, Yeah, lots of energy, and it
makes me uncomfortable, like she really does feel you know,
or I complain a lot at least about like the
shaky camera to try to manipulate you into thinking something
crazy is happening. But this is just a really well
captured feeling of being out of control.

Speaker 1 (01:02:35):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:02:36):
I was really impressed with it. And then it's great.
Then you have the way that they reveal that she's
being carried away right where you see looks like she's
about to hit something and then just slowly she lifts
into the air through the windshield.

Speaker 1 (01:02:48):
It's great. See this is the type of sequence. Now
we get it that you know all of this was
a distraction, right, so that the lex can can lift
the kryptonite. I watched this though, and I'm like, why
not do it in the daytime? Right, Like most of

(01:03:09):
this movie does not exist in daytime. It feels like, hmm,
like I just, I just I feel like it's an
odd choice, you know, it's I don't know, it does
I guess it doesn't matter that much. But to me
this look at that cell phone by the way, I know,
I know, it just adds to this this muddy visual scheme.

(01:03:35):
You know, that's a really interesting point.

Speaker 2 (01:03:38):
I mean, yeah, it might feel more supermanesque seeing him
do these fantastic things under a bright blue sky, but
this feels kind of singery, doesn't it. I mean, like
you think of X Men, I think of kind of
like I don't know, a lot of nightscapes and that
kind of cinematography.

Speaker 1 (01:03:55):
Yeah, I'm well, that's really what this movie drives home,
is that not every director is suited to every subject
matter clearly. Yeah, and again, the thinging at the time,
oh well, he did this comic book thing. He'll be
great with that comic book thing. And oddly enough, you know,
and that was the same thing that informed Tim Burton
being hired to do the Superman movie in the mid

(01:04:18):
to late nineties. And I remember at the time, I
was like, I don't I'm not sure about that. Yeah. Yeah,
And that's worth recognizing. I mean, this movie arrived after
you know, almost fifteen years of progress of trying to
get a movie made. I mean, look, it's worth remembering

(01:04:42):
as late as ninety two, Christopher Reeve was at least
considering coming back. Wow.

Speaker 2 (01:04:50):
And so the last one before that was Night or
eighty seven.

Speaker 1 (01:04:53):
Yeah. Eight. So the soul Kinds owned the Superman rights.
They licensed those rights to Golan Globus. They made Superman four,
which was a disaster, and then after that the rights
ended up coming back to the sal Kinds. And and
I remember in the early nineties they were planning to

(01:05:16):
make it was going to be called Superman the New Movie.
Really literally, yeah, super So like we had Superman the Movie,
this is going to be Superman the New Movie and
instead of Superman five. And their plan was to basically
get rid of everybody but bring back Christopher Reeve. And
Carrie Bates was a combook writer. He had written a

(01:05:38):
script Brainiac was going to be the villain and and
Christopher Reeve had talked about it. He said, you know,
it's something I'm considering. You know, it's you really, if
you're going to come back, it has to be really
worth it. After the disappointment of the last one, so
it was he had not ruled it out. And then
you know, shortly after that, obviously he had his accident.

(01:05:58):
But in the interim, Warner Brothers had reacquired the Superman rights. Okay,
that's why. So a couple of things. There was the
super Boy television series that was produced by the sal Kinds,
and Warner Brothers had by then reacquired the rights, and
they were like, well, this show needs to end because
they it wasn't produced by them, and that's what led

(01:06:21):
to Loewis and Clark. But but even then they were
in the process of developing the Superman you know, the
super what what I think it started as Superman Lives.
It was adapted from the Death of Superman thing, and
that's what what Tim Burton eventually got involved in. Okay,
Christopher Reeves accident was in five, so by that time

(01:06:42):
I think it was no longer on the table for
him to come back, right wow, five, Yeah, ninety Did
I say five? Sorry, ninety five? I was young ninety
five to when did heh? Four? He died? I see?
So he lived with that condition for nine years. Yeah, yeah,

(01:07:06):
it's crazy. You know what was that documentary? We should
recommend that? Yeah? Super Man super Slash Slash Yeah yeah,
did you as that? Yeah? Yeah? Oh fantastic, Yeah, very good.

Speaker 2 (01:07:18):
By the way, these pictures that Perry's upset about where
he's like, you know, a boy with a cell phone
took these pictures and they're better than the ones you
were taking, Jimmy. And there are these, like HD beautiful
photographs that this kid took with like a phone with
like a potato.

Speaker 1 (01:07:31):
Camera, you know, like I looked it up out of curiosity.

Speaker 2 (01:07:38):
So if this was June two thousand and six when
this came out, the iPhone came out in June two
thousand and seven, Okay, so it's pretty close.

Speaker 1 (01:07:45):
Wow. Yeah, the the Tim Burton film, I don't know
if you remember like that that fell apart fairly late
in the process.

Speaker 2 (01:07:58):
It was like, yeah, pretty close to shooting, wasn't it.

Speaker 1 (01:08:01):
It was? Yeah, And the plan had been like Michael
Keaton was going to cameo as Batman, Like, there's all
this a lot of ambitions, and I think we've talked
about this before. I at this point, with with twenty
you know, almost thirty years of hindsight, I'm like, I
kind of wish that movie existed, just that I could

(01:08:22):
see it, just so that I could see it.

Speaker 2 (01:08:24):
I know, same, same, I mean, would it have been
the right thing?

Speaker 1 (01:08:27):
Like who knows? But at the time, I remember for
sure at the time being like, oh please God, this
sounds awful. Hey sure, yeah, yeah, Nicholas Cage just Superman't
didn't sound like a great idea to me, right, But
even back then, you know, and before Burton got involved,
as you mentioned, Kevin Smith had written a script and
I remember him talking. He John Peters was the producer,

(01:08:51):
who was a producer this too, by the way, was like, oh,
we gotta like we don't want I'm wearing the same
old costume. It's got to look like nineties style. And
Kevin Smith's like, I don't know what does that mean?
You know, so literally in the script it's like first
appearance of Superman. It's like Superman appears nineties style. Man's Yeah,

(01:09:17):
but that fell apart in the late nineties and then
and then they they the next iteration was called Superman
flyby Yeah. Jj Abrams, right, jj Abrams were with the
script for Originally it was going to be Brett Ratner,
so we're just it's just all kinds of sex predators,
that's right. Yeah, right, Brett Ratner was going to direct that,

(01:09:39):
and and then he dropped out, and that was kind
of a that story was a little out there, right, Yeah.
I think the biggest change in that is that Krypton
didn't explode. Right, It's just like in a there's a
civil war, kelll is like a Kryptonian prince and that

(01:10:00):
sounds terrible to me.

Speaker 2 (01:10:03):
Right, It's only he gets sent to Earth and then
one of the villains from his planet comes over something
like that.

Speaker 1 (01:10:10):
Yeah, and like Lex Luthor is a Kryptonian in that script.

Speaker 2 (01:10:15):
It's just one of those things where everybody feels like
they need to like subvert and it's like sometimes, no,
we want to see that, we're here for the thing.

Speaker 1 (01:10:23):
Just give us the thing. Yeah, just give us the thing.
And that one fell apart, by the way, because Harry
Knowles of all people just tore it to shreds. Really.
Oh and and back when that guy had an inordinate
amount of sway in Hollywood. Yeah, I mean that wasn't era,
it was yeah, you know, but but Rattner laughed and
then make G was gonna direct, it was gonna be that.

Speaker 2 (01:10:46):
All these names.

Speaker 1 (01:10:47):
It's such a moment, such a moment. This is like, really,
I think I think make G wanted or no, no,
Brett Rattner wanted Matt Boehmer to play Superman. I can
see that. Yeah, I can totally see that. I think
McGee wanted Henry Cavell. Wow, yeah, because I'm pretty sure
Cavell auditioned for that. Yeah, he got his turn in

(01:11:13):
the barrel though.

Speaker 2 (01:11:14):
Yeah, I'm looking at some of the under Brett Ratner's moment.

Speaker 1 (01:11:19):
There's people they wanted to cast, Josh Hart and Josh
Harten Walker, Brendan Fraser, Ashton Kutcher. Like this is such
a time capsule, isn't it. It really is? Yeah, Ashton Kutcher,
Oh my gosh. Yeah, can you imagine. Yeah, I mean
I don't know if you remember, but in the lead
up to Batman Begins, they were going to do Batman

(01:11:39):
Versus Superman. Yeah, I have that script. I've never read it, though,
how funny. Yeah, like Andrew Kevin Walker I think wrote it. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
and that one. I think they were talking about Josh
Hartnett playing Superman. I think Christian Bale even is going
to be Batman. Wow? Really? Or like was linked to it? Yeah,
Wolfgang Peterson and was going to direct that, right, but

(01:12:03):
he did Troy instead. Okay, it's weird how these things happen, right,
certain things have to happen the way they happen.

Speaker 2 (01:12:10):
I was going to bring that up because you mentioned
that a lot with if we don't do Batman and
Robin Yep and the failure of that and the rethink
that had to happen at Warner Brothers.

Speaker 1 (01:12:20):
We don't get Batman begins, That's right.

Speaker 2 (01:12:21):
So it makes me wonder if we had gotten that
Tim Burton Superman movie, maybe it would have worked in
some interesting way. Maybe it wouldn't have Where would it
have directed us?

Speaker 1 (01:12:33):
Next? Right? I think that's sort of that. That sums
up the dilemma that Warner Brothers has had with Superman,
much more so than with Batman, because I think Batman,
for whatever reason, is much more of an evergreen character. Yeah,
I think Superman is an evergreen also but I feel

(01:12:55):
like there's just something about having to continually remind people
that Superman is relevant. Yeah he gets overthought, yes, yeah, right,
and and.

Speaker 2 (01:13:08):
It's beautiful, by the way, I just want to call
that out, that visual of him watching her go up
the elevator.

Speaker 1 (01:13:13):
Yeah, him being a creepy stalker weirdo. Well, I don't
know at this moment, I thought it was kind of sweet.
The way it's visualized is effective. Yeah yeah, yeah, see
even this right here where she's smoking. I don't know,
there's just something about it just feels like a kid
in a school project. Yeah yeah, yeah. I mean I

(01:13:33):
don't know if that makes sense, but right like.

Speaker 2 (01:13:35):
No, I do, I do understand, you know, yeah, you
know I kind of wonder No, sorry, get back to
what you were saying.

Speaker 1 (01:13:46):
Yeah, no, just just just a button that thought I
think they with with Batman. You know, it's just easier
to be like, here's here's another Batman mystery, and I
just kind of wish they would do that with Superman.
I think that's what James Gunn is hoping to do,

(01:14:06):
where it's just oh, here's another Superman. It's just you know,
I think that there is a they do try too
hard sometimes, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:14:15):
And maybe with Batman also, there's kind of a general
tone you can anticipate, and maybe the style will be
tweaked a little bit, but the tone you kind of
know what you're walking into with a Batman movie. It
with Superman, everybody has an opinion.

Speaker 1 (01:14:30):
I think to just just to push back on that
a little bit. I think with Batman people are willing to.
It's more elastic, there's more ability to en gumpass more tones. Sure, right,
So in other words, you can go from Batman forever,
oh ten years later Batman begins and still have it
be Batman. H Right. I think with Superman, if you

(01:14:55):
color too far outside the lines this way or that,
the audience will reflect push back. Yeah, And to some extent,
that's what we saw in the aftermath of Man of
Steel right, where there was some folks who just would
not accept that depiction of Superman. I didn't have problem

(01:15:15):
with it. I know you didn't know. I really liked
that movie, you know, but look, let's be real. If
if everything was peaches and sunshine, we'd be talking about
Man of Steel five right now, you know, instead of
the umpteenth iteration. I wish we had gotten at least
one more. You're not kidding.

Speaker 2 (01:15:32):
Yeah see, but even this, I mean this, I know
we're not huge fans of this sort of muddy look.
I almost blame the cameras more than I personally.

Speaker 1 (01:15:45):
I think you're a palette. But I would be okay.

Speaker 2 (01:15:48):
With another story in this take tone, whatever you want
to call it. I just don't like the story, Like,
I don't like the characterizations. That's my problem. If there
had been a better story in this aesthetic.

Speaker 1 (01:16:01):
I'd be okay with it. Right. No, I'm with you.

Speaker 2 (01:16:06):
Just this sort of romantic I don't know, visual style
or something that's kind of interesting from like a movie
or two. But I just yeah, like you you've been doing.

Speaker 1 (01:16:17):
This right here real quick. She's like, oh, Clark said
da da da, And he's like Clark, who's that? I'm like,
what are you talking about? Like I know I thought
that too, And she's like, Oh, he's just some guy
I work with. Yeah, it's just irks me, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:16:32):
Yeah, Well that's interesting because then it maybe makes you
think of sometimes you read about a filmmaker that comes
in that thinks or says, well, I wasn't really a
fan of material, so I was like, well, can.

Speaker 1 (01:16:45):
I bring to this? Right?

Speaker 2 (01:16:47):
But you're saying that he came in as a big
fan of Superman, so it's interesting how.

Speaker 1 (01:16:52):
Yeah, and my my question is a fan of what? Yeah? Right? Yeah,
Like what was it that supposedly spoke to you? Because again,
just just to go back to what I was saying before,
if you watch Batman begins and Chris Nolan tells you, hey,
you know, I'm a big fan of Donner Superman, I'd
be like, oh, right on, I see it, right, I don't.

(01:17:14):
I don't see it here? Yeah, I see the most
superficial elements, right right. I think I think fundamentally what
what I don't get a sense of in this film
is Okay, he he's back and he's helping, but he

(01:17:40):
enjoys helping people. Mm hmm. Here it's like a burden. Hmmm.
He never smiles. That's the other thing, right, people remember
a Man of Steel? Oh why doesn't he smile? I'm like,
bro does not smile in this movie except for a
few bits here and there, you know, but literally, you know,
there's a bit he's like, you say the world doesn't
need to say it. And every minute I hear people

(01:18:02):
calling up for one or whatever. Right, I'm like, oh
my god, Like, you know, it's funny.

Speaker 2 (01:18:08):
I did that bumped me also because I don't I
understand what he's saying. But yeah, maybe it's the delivery
or something. It doesn't feel very.

Speaker 1 (01:18:17):
Uh yeah, well it makes it seem like a burden. Yeah, exactly.
And I think I think, and maybe this is just me. Look,
I'm bringing my own biases, but you know, I've got
several decades of Superman fandom, and I think I think
the most aspirational aspect of Superman is that he enjoys

(01:18:39):
helping people. He's like, I can do this, and that's
what I can do is help, right, you know. Uh,
you know, Christopher Reeve said this, right, what makes him
a hero is that he has all this power, but
he has the decency to use it the right way, right,

(01:19:01):
And and so this sense of like, ah, here I
go helping, you know, oh, let me rescue this woman.
Like dude, it's like, don't do us any favors Man,
right right? Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:19:13):
Yeah, there's just even watching these scenes, which by the way,
are beautiful.

Speaker 1 (01:19:17):
Yeah, I think this is really beautiful.

Speaker 2 (01:19:18):
Him them, Superman and lois flying together here over the city.
Although I did wonder why you took that detour to
her house. I was like, he like left the city
to swing by her house and.

Speaker 1 (01:19:30):
She's just to specifically like, hey, that's where you live.

Speaker 2 (01:19:34):
But then they go back. I don't know, it just
felt weird to me.

Speaker 1 (01:19:36):
That's where you live with the man that you're not
with right now, right right.

Speaker 2 (01:19:42):
But yeah, there's just a real wistfulness. I mean, just
looking at this with the sound off, it's just making me,
I don't know, I want to feel a little. You said,
it's humorless and there's.

Speaker 1 (01:19:51):
Yeah, you know, no jubilance, and there's no joy and
there's no but it is beautiful. I mean this, this
is beautiful. Yeah. Yeah, I think that you need to
balance the quiet moments with some big action beats, and

(01:20:13):
this movie is conspicuously devoid of big action beats. Yeah.
And this is this is where I say, like Man
of Steel, like I, in my opinion, overcorrected a little
too far in the other direction where you just have
super destructo you know, nine to eleven times three, right,

(01:20:35):
and it's like, can we just can we find a
happy medium here? Please?

Speaker 2 (01:20:39):
I know, I remember that's my one note, like I
would love to watch a fan cut version of that
movie that scales back a bit in the third act,
because it goes on like.

Speaker 1 (01:20:48):
A little too long. Yeah. My resturrection from our conversation
when we watched it is like, you know, maybe trim
the Smallville action scene a little sooner and then and
and he had dialed by down by like ten percent,
you know, act three, you know, And I think they're

(01:21:09):
still trying to lick that, you know. I think I
think even even the new film, without getting into it,
I think gets a little a little too much for
me personally, you know. Interesting, I think that when we
think about it, the third act of Superman seventy eight

(01:21:30):
is the San Andreas fault, which was fairly like that.
That was large scale back then, right, but it feels sedate,
you know, compared to what we can do now. And yet,
in my opinion, when you watch that movie, you still
feel it all this stuff where he's going from this
place is trying to you know, fix this that, you know,

(01:21:53):
the rescue people from the dam and fix the fault,
and like all of that tracks and I think that's
like the third act of this movie. It's just nonsense
to me. You know, yeah, there are no stakes, and
you know it's a weird one.

Speaker 2 (01:22:14):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And it's just the moment we just
saw where she's come back from flying with Superman and
then her hair's all must up and she's confronting James
Marsin's character and it, you know, it kind of has
like a sexual sort of allusion to it.

Speaker 1 (01:22:32):
It's just I don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:22:33):
I don't want to have to wrestle with these feelings
watching this movie and sort of feeling bad for the
Martian character.

Speaker 1 (01:22:39):
And that's the thing. I'm trying to figure out, what
does the movie want me to feel? Right, Because on
the one hand, you say, well, we like Lois, so
of course we'd want her to be with a good guy. Yeah,
so you don't want to paint him as being just
a total jerk, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:23:00):
But I'm not getting any sense of what they had before, right,
So I'm not sensing like, oh, this feels right with
them back together. Yes, it's missing for me, Yeah, odd
choices yeah yeah. Uh oh, someone's been in my bed.

Speaker 1 (01:23:26):
Somebody's been sleeping in my bed and they're still here. Yeah.
I'm like, Superman, just put a lock on your ship. Man,
it feels like, yeah, this should be a better security system.
This is a recurring problem because of course in Superman two,
Lex gets into the fortress. Yep. I think the krypton

(01:23:48):
Os isn't great where Joe L's like hey, my son,
and Lex is like.

Speaker 2 (01:23:54):
Hey, dad, right, tell me everything.

Speaker 1 (01:23:58):
Give me all your passwords exactly. That's really funny.

Speaker 2 (01:24:06):
Wait, now something I read tell me if this is true.
Brandon Routh auditioned for Smallville.

Speaker 1 (01:24:16):
That sounds familiar, That sounds right. That's interesting.

Speaker 2 (01:24:18):
It's funny how it's just some people have the Superman look.
So even Henry Cavell being in conversation this early, you know,
and it's like they're just always going to be on
the short list. I guess it's a little bit like Bond, right,
and then yeah, like you know, you know, if if
you're a male between this age and this age, and
you have certain certain characteristics.

Speaker 1 (01:24:37):
You'll probably be on that list, you know. Yeah, I mean,
certainly Henry Cavell, I've said it before. I mean that
man was chiseled from granite to play Superman. Yeah, he
was put on this earth to play Superman at least once.
You know, I'm glad he got that chance. Yeah, yeah, same,

(01:24:58):
And to your point, I wish he'd gotten a few
more chances. Yeah. Same. So Lowis is just like a
bad parent, right, this is crazy. Yeah. She's like, hey,
I'm going to wander onto this strange boat. Come on, son, Yeah,
in pursuit of something that's kind of hinky. But like, yeah,
I have my son, I'll just bring him along, I do.
This is kind of funny. The kid is like, are

(01:25:19):
we trespassing? She doesn't?

Speaker 2 (01:25:20):
She say like no, well yes, but I mean yeah,
I would never do this by myself. Yeah, but this
is kind of a good moment there though, when she's
surprised both of them, her ends Lex are surprised to
see one another. Well, I love that the discovery of
the wigs is the like to me, it's like it's

(01:25:42):
like in Star Trek two, Checkov sees the Botany Bay
Botany Bay.

Speaker 1 (01:25:47):
We have to get out of here, you know, right,
and it's that equivalent. There's just like wigs, wigs like
other people wear wigs. Right, right, let's talk about Kevin
Spacey as Lex Luthor. Yes, please, I feel like this
is something that works great in concept, certainly back then
pre like everything yeah, you know, pre me gesturing all

(01:26:10):
of this. You know, you're like, oh, yeah, totally makes sense.
And yet he doesn't make much of a mark in
this movie. In my opinion, is that strange because he
is hamming it as much as this movie hams. Yes, right,
So why do you think that is? He's just I
don't know, just tonally. I have a hard time buying

(01:26:33):
him as the gene Hackman les sure, yeah, yeah, you know,
I think that might factor in.

Speaker 2 (01:26:39):
Yeah, yeah, there's just something sort of well, I mean,
Gene Hackman, gen Hackman.

Speaker 1 (01:26:47):
But I mean certainly Kevin Spacey mid two thousands was
at least as well regarded. Oh yeah, oh maybe it
was his moment, right, I mean, he had won two Oscars,
but this point, yeah, I.

Speaker 2 (01:27:01):
Would wager in this moment a lot of people would
say he's one of.

Speaker 1 (01:27:04):
Their favorite actors. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Yeah. This is another
scene one of the few things I remembered with her
and the boy and the piano. Oh, when he just
straight up murders that guy. Yeah, that's how you do it,
That's how you do it.

Speaker 2 (01:27:24):
Yeah yeah, yeah, but yeah, you know what I mean,
Like everyone is playing this movie very straight and serious, right,
and he's occasionally hamming it up, right.

Speaker 1 (01:27:37):
Yes he is. I mean in a very very muted way, right,
he's muted ham Yeah. Yeah. But also Kevin Spacey is
kind of a hammy actor.

Speaker 2 (01:27:50):
I even remember when American Beauty came out and everybody
was like falling all over him for that. I was like, yes,
he's doing something interesting, but he also doesn't. He feels
otherworldly a little bit. And the way that he's talking
to people, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:28:03):
Like I hate my job.

Speaker 2 (01:28:06):
I mean, you know, he's always been a little over
the top. But I think at the time people were like, yeah, yeah, no, yeah,
he's interesting.

Speaker 1 (01:28:15):
You know what's funny about American Beauty. I've only seen
that movie one time. Really, I've only seen it the
one time, and I remember enjoying it. Yeah, I liked it.
I watched the opening night. I watched it at the
Canterra with Sean and and it's just funny how in retrospect,
I'm just like ew, like, like, well, just so much Ew.
You know.

Speaker 2 (01:28:35):
Yeah, there's a lot of you in that movie. I mean,
I know that's kind of the point. But also at
the same time, you could argue that maybe the movie
doesn't even recognize it by the end, like it presents
a lot at you, but it doesn't reckon with it.
It's just sort of like, oh, well, you know, everybody's
just trying their best.

Speaker 1 (01:28:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:28:54):
Yeah, I already watched it a couple of years ago.

Speaker 1 (01:28:56):
Oh I'm curious. I mean, did it hold up for you?
H I mean yes and no.

Speaker 2 (01:29:02):
I mean I think it would probably be easy to
just say no. But there's a lot of you know,
interesting filmmaking and performances and weird ideas. And that's kind
of my take, is it presents a lot of weird stuff. Yeah,
and I think it it's meant to be like, yeah,
this isn't okay along the way, but by the end

(01:29:24):
of it, it just kind of forgives everybody right, and
it's you know, it's like, well, because I mean spoiler,
you know, Kevin Spacey's character dies and it's like, well,
isn't that just kind of sad? You know, he maybe
he was just he was just trying his best, and
this is just you know, minutes after he almost had
sex with his underage girl, but he didn't.

Speaker 1 (01:29:42):
He didn't because he's a good guy. He's been fantasizing
about her the whole movie and exactly the audience has
made complicit in that, by the way.

Speaker 2 (01:29:51):
Yeah, so it's it's messy, but I can't say it
isn't interesting.

Speaker 1 (01:29:56):
Okay, that's Sam Mendez, right, it is Sam Menda's. Yeah.
I think that was his first theatrical movie because he
was a theater director and Alan Ball wrote the that's right, yeah,
I mean that movie was a big moment.

Speaker 4 (01:30:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:30:09):
Yeah, when he came out, it's a big deal. Yeah. Yeah.
So Lex's plan is goddamn idiotic. Right.

Speaker 2 (01:30:16):
That was the other thing again that I remember where
it was like, I'm going to create all this land
for real estate, and then he he creates like this
immediate apocalypse landscape.

Speaker 1 (01:30:25):
It makes like this is for anybody who who looked
at Lexa's plan in the first film, I was like,
I don't know, man sink into sinking California into the
ocean so you have more beachfront. It's like, oh, hold
my beer.

Speaker 2 (01:30:39):
Right right, he's gonna create a new continent that's going
to overtake North America.

Speaker 1 (01:30:46):
Like you almost wish like because he's so like and
this is what we're gonna do, and you just want
los to be like that's idiotic. Yes, oh that would
have been Yeah, you are a stupid person, you know, Like,
actually I would have love that. That always makes more sense,
you know.

Speaker 2 (01:31:03):
Yeah, yeah, see this this stuff he's doing here, it
feels like he's like, but I'm in a superhero movie.

Speaker 1 (01:31:08):
Don't I get to do this a little bit? But
it's it's so off kilter because it's just sprinkled in
these odd places totally. He's like, you're not getting the
big picture or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:31:21):
Well, and then you got poor Parker Posey over here.
It was this brilliant, interesting, idiostocratic actress, and then she's
just sitting there looking at mostly.

Speaker 1 (01:31:29):
For the rest of the movie, like, am I wrong?
Cast her as lowest you're gonna get something interesting? Yeah? Definitely.
So this here, you know, where he's got this little
cylinder made of kryptonite and he like puts it towards
the kid and the kid starts getting sick. I would
have loved like four more minutes of him just going close,
far close, far. I would That's really funny.

Speaker 2 (01:31:58):
I do like this, though, I Mean I'm just looking
at his realization reactions and the kid.

Speaker 1 (01:32:04):
Am I wrong? Is the kid kind of underplaying it
a little bit here. Now that's the kid's like that
he's that he's getting sick with the kryptonite.

Speaker 2 (01:32:11):
Yeah, I got what was happening. But it's not like
he's slumping or any different than he was.

Speaker 1 (01:32:15):
Again, I think it would be hilarious if he's very
obviously getting sick and then you move it away and
he's obviously very happy and jovial. Yeah, yeah, very Just
keep going back and forth like a Looney Tunes cartoon exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:32:27):
I was gonna say, like a cartoon like oh oh
oh oh oh yeah, just back and forth.

Speaker 1 (01:32:35):
That would been hilarious. Now, the thing about this, right,
so that's the first inclination, Oh you know, who's that
boy's father? How do you just drop in? Oh, by
the way, uh, Superman didn't pull out in time, and
and and then he left her, like like, how do
you make Superman a deadbeat dad? I know, I know.

(01:33:00):
Like my point is, none of this makes sense to
me because because like I don't know, that's a big deal.
If Superman knocked up Lois Lane, you have fundamentally altered
the trajectory of these characters. Yeah, and I'm not saying
there aren't stories to do that. There's one of my
favorite Superman's ever is Superman and Lois, which is him

(01:33:23):
as a parent to two teenagers. Sure, and it is
fan freakantastic. I gotta watch that. I know you've at
this moment. Honestly, I said, at this moment, Tyler Hecklin
is second only to Christopher Reive for me. Wow, you know, yeah,
it's terrific. So I'm not saying there aren't stories to tell,
but I'm saying that's such you have to get into that.

(01:33:46):
You have to be like, how when did this happen?
How did this? Say? You know? Yeah, it's also.

Speaker 2 (01:33:54):
Yeah muted and keep saying the melancholy keeps coming to
my mind. Just the reaction actions to this, even at
the end when he's watching the kids sleep, that's a
big damn deal.

Speaker 1 (01:34:04):
Yeah, like, where do we go from here? What does
this mean? He and Lois need to talk, you know,
But it's just so oh that's my child, I guess,
and then he flies away.

Speaker 2 (01:34:14):
It's just I don't know, so weird, right, Yeah, I
agree with you. I mean, well, singer co wrote this,
he directed it. It just feels like a fundamental I
don't know, wrongheaded approach to all this.

Speaker 1 (01:34:28):
Yeah, well, especially as as we barreled towards the third
act and again it's like we've still got an hour left, dude.

Speaker 2 (01:34:36):
I literally actually just tapped my iPad and I was like,
oh my gosh, oh my gosh.

Speaker 1 (01:34:46):
Yeah, sorry, the pacing is interminable. I mean we're watching
it right now. This is really slow pace, you know,
execution of this moment.

Speaker 2 (01:34:58):
Now, I will say though, this this is one of
the moments that I remembered, which is this creepy.

Speaker 1 (01:35:04):
This guy is creepy. Yeah right, I mean, forget the tattoo,
which I looked up.

Speaker 2 (01:35:09):
I guess that's what John Wayne Gacy's clown makeup look like.

Speaker 1 (01:35:12):
Oh okay, good times.

Speaker 2 (01:35:13):
Yeah that's great. You know, the child killer, So that's
tattooed on the back of his skull. But like, I
like this moment actually on paper, this is kind of interesting, right,
like this guard playing piano with the boy, but it's
just like he's interminable. Like just the execution, the pacing

(01:35:34):
of it is just so indulgent.

Speaker 1 (01:35:37):
It's it's indulgent, and that makes me believe that that
a singer had final edit. Yeah, which is you know,
I've said this before. Final cut is often held up
as like a thing like, oh, you know this, these
directors don't even get final cut, you know, And I'm like,
you know, yeah, those directors shouldn't have final cut. Yeah, yeah,

(01:35:58):
I'm just gonna put that. I don't know if that's
a it's a controversial opinion, but not every director has
earned it or uses it. Well.

Speaker 2 (01:36:08):
Yeah, but sometimes it's good to have someone pushing you.

Speaker 1 (01:36:12):
Well. You know, I've said before, you look at like
Steven Spielberg obviously has final edit. But one thing you'll
say about Steven Spielberg is he he cuts his movie
such that it'll it'll play, it'll play to the wise audience.

Speaker 2 (01:36:28):
And he has a long time editor. Yeah that I'm
sure they have a very close, honest, forthright relationship, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:36:37):
Yeah. Well, and this is edited by John Otman, by
the way, who did the score.

Speaker 2 (01:36:42):
Isn't that fascinating? I remember that, yeah, as a fact
from back in the day. The composer and the editor.

Speaker 1 (01:36:47):
Yeah, it's interesting. Well, it's like real quick.

Speaker 2 (01:36:50):
Ben burt Right, he edited the prequel Star Wars prequels
and he's the sound designer.

Speaker 1 (01:36:56):
That's interest. I don't think I knew that. Yeah, he's
in that. If you watch the.

Speaker 2 (01:37:01):
I forget what it's called, the saga begins, oh right, right, yeah, yeah,
you see Bert at an avid cutting.

Speaker 1 (01:37:09):
Wow. Okay, that's back when nonlinear was just starting. Yeah, yeah, crazy.
So this is the other thing that really jumped out
at me. There. There's there's a lot of a lot
of blue screen stuff, yeah, or green screen stuff, and
that that distracts me more so than I would have expected.
And I wonder it's if it's because of shooting on

(01:37:31):
video and it's not up to snuff yet. You know.

Speaker 2 (01:37:35):
We also we haven't really commented on it, but there's
a bit of that. I remember when the Matrix, the
second one came out, there's a big deal made out
of creating a full body digital stunt double. You know,
so you had all the smiths that Neo's fighting, and
some of the shots you can tell it looks like
stunting in and it looks really great, and then some
of it looks like this like PlayStation three graphic of

(01:37:58):
a human being And yeah, I mean early days, and
they've come a long way with that. Actually, there was
something recently that I don't remember what it was, but
they said like, oh, yeah, yeah, this guy when he
falls here, that's a digital stunt double. And I was like, well,
be damned, looks they did it. They cracked it, like
I can't tell anymore. But in this one, there's it
feels like a lot of digital body doubling for Superman

(01:38:22):
when he's kind of unnecessarily unnecessarily yes, when he's in
the air, it didn't feel necessary.

Speaker 1 (01:38:27):
It looks kind of rubbery and weird. Just put Brandon
Rath on wires. What are you guys doing? You know? Yeah?
So that Yeah, I mean I like this scene in concept.
I like the whole.

Speaker 2 (01:38:40):
It's not just a hint, like the Hinchman's kind of
inherently interesting because he's going to sit next to the
kid at the piano and play a song, and that
gives an opening for Lois to send out their coordinates, right,
I mean, you have to squint to not think about
the whole Internet connection noise that's happening that he doesn't
hear ten feet away.

Speaker 1 (01:39:02):
Exactly. Yeah. See, so this is this is this sequence.
I think it makes me uncomfortable.

Speaker 2 (01:39:10):
He's gonna murder this kid's mother in front of him.

Speaker 1 (01:39:13):
Right, So so you get it. It has to make
you uncomfortable because Jason has to be seeing something so
scary that it would push him into this, you know,
like his his power to activate. You get it. But again,
this goes to what we were talking about earlier. It's
like all these plot points that are all kind of

(01:39:36):
not nurtured properly. If Superman has a son, that's your story. Yeah,
you know that's not the oh and like we don't
address it at all. Yeah, what are his powers? You know,
that's a good point. I remember Brian Singer gave some
interview where he was like, you know, for the next one,

(01:39:58):
you know, we're gonna we're gonna Wrath of Khan. And
I guess that meant, you know, going darker, maybe putting
the kid in danger or something. And I'm like, well,
I don't want to see that either. I know, I
just want to see Superman saving people. Can we just
do that? Can we just And here's the funny thing.
I read that he had offered the role of General

(01:40:18):
Zod to Jude Law. Yeah yeah, I saw that, and
Jude Law either said nor it wasn't available, and so
they got rid of the character. I'm like, can we
please acknowledge that Superman has other villains than these two guys. Sure,
that's a good point.

Speaker 2 (01:40:36):
And I got to say, as someone who hasn't really
read the comics other than a handful you've given me, Yeah,
I mean I do. I think it's affected me in
that when you said that about Zod, I'm like, oh,
that'd be great because that's what I know. Yeah, and
Superman hasn't really been pushed villain wise in the movies.

(01:40:56):
And so I you know, when the James Gun trailers
were coming out and we're seeing it stacked with all
these comic book looking people. I remember talking to friends
that don't really read the comics watch the movies that
were thinking like, I don't know, this looks weird. Sure,
and I I remember wanting to ask you, then, well
does it or.

Speaker 1 (01:41:14):
Is this what you know? It's more reflective of a
comic book universe.

Speaker 2 (01:41:18):
Yeah, yeah, you know, maybe it's good to finally push that.
So we are expanding the sandbox for Superman on Scoen.

Speaker 1 (01:41:26):
Yeah. Well, and what you realize is that was the
great service that the Adam West Batman show did was
put most of his villains into the public eye. And
and sort of nestled them in the consciousness, right, so
you know, above and beyond Joker, Penguin, Catwoman and Riddler.
You know, you got you know, mister Freeze and Egghead

(01:41:48):
and you know whoever else, right, Mad had had her
right and then and then the animated show obviously was
able to darken those characters. But Superman didn't really have
that right because in the nineteen fifties show, they didn't
even have Lex Luthor. In the nineteen fifties show, it
was just guys and suits, m and gangsters and yeah,

(01:42:09):
thieves throw. They would unload their clip on Superman and
then throw their gun at him. Every every episode, just
about this sequence. I like the way they bring in
the John Williams music again. Every time that music comes in,
your heart races a little bit. Yeah, now this I'm wondering, like,

(01:42:29):
did he just fly through the top of the yeah elevator?
I thought that too, I mean, in my I had
to make it up in my head.

Speaker 2 (01:42:38):
I was like, Okay, I guess he pushed open the
escape hatch at the time, I was.

Speaker 1 (01:42:43):
Trying to nitpick, but no, Yeah, see the stuff with
him flying all looks pretty good. I think. I think
it still holds up same. So if your technology is
such where you can make that look convincing, why swap
in Uncanny Valley Superman? Mm hmm yeah yeah right at
at key moments. And this this is also random. This

(01:43:06):
might be just me being nitpicky, but I I don't.
I don't like how overly quaffed the spit curl is.
That's funny that that stood out to me too, but
I didn't think about it till the last scene. I
think it's like a big chunk. Yeah, that's really funny. No,
but but when you when you look at Superman. Okay,
so obviously there's Lex Luthor, Lex Luth there's the big one,

(01:43:29):
and in general, thanks to thanks to the movies, I
would say, really is big. But you know he's got
uh well, I mentioned there's Matallo, there's Brainiac, there's a parasite,
there's I mean, there's there's a lot, you know, a
toy man. I'm just thinking of villains from from the
nineties animated series Dark Side for goodness sake, you know,

(01:43:50):
like there's an opportunity. Now his his rogues gallery is
not as expansive or or as well known as Batman's,
but like, let's let's try let's push the boundaries a
little bit. H You know, I I think that one
thing I liked about about Lois and Clark during its
first season is that Lex Luther was in just about

(01:44:11):
every episode, but he was the guy behind the scenes. Mmm. Sure,
you know, he was the guy pulling the strings. But
there was like some physical threat that Superman had to overcome,
you know, right. That is kind of ironic, isn't it For.

Speaker 2 (01:44:28):
A series where the character can fly and has heat
vision and you know, can freeze things with his breath
that the movies have stayed relatively grounded otherwise, you know,
like you don't see him fighting aliens very well, I
mean z Od and everything, but they look humanoid.

Speaker 1 (01:44:43):
Yeah yeah, I almost. I wonder if it goes to
sort of like people are willing to suspend their disbelief
only so far. Hmmm sure. So it's like you tell
us that this guy is an alien, he's got these powers.
We'll go with you there. But thing beyond that it
becomes a little hard to hard to swallow, right, like

(01:45:05):
people have a limit, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:45:06):
Yeah this, Uh well, I was thinking, like, is Metropolis
like just screwed, like all its underground infrastructure and subway systems,
and after this whole shockwave that ripples through the city.

Speaker 1 (01:45:21):
Yeah, so you know this sequence, yeah, is I like
the little bits that we see. I like the thing
where he's Superman is flying and he turns upside down
and he shoots the he like incinerates the glass, you know. Yeah, yeah,
that's a cool thing. But this feel, this whole bit,

(01:45:42):
it feels like a very uh this this bit right here.
I like this. Yeah, I think that's cool. Cool of
that heat vision it is. Yeah, it's cool. But I
don't know, there's just something like this stuff doesn't really
land for me the way the way the earthquake scene

(01:46:03):
in the seventy eight movie does I get that? Why
do you think that is? I don't know. You know,
there's something about the pacing. There is a lot of
music that's really highlighting the action.

Speaker 4 (01:46:18):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:46:21):
Yeah, this is again.

Speaker 2 (01:46:23):
I do love the way this movie looks. Objectively. Yeah,
I think it's beautifully shot, even the stuff from.

Speaker 1 (01:46:30):
The Grant now. But yeah, it like I said, I
think it's almost a little too in love with itself,
in love with its look instead of doing what will
bring us into the action. Into the story. It's just.

Speaker 2 (01:46:43):
Concerning itself with beautiful photography. Yeah, and it's maybe creating
a little bit of a distance.

Speaker 1 (01:46:51):
So I just watched X two in the last two weeks, right,
and so it's very fresh. And one thing I will
say about that movie, I mean it moves, yeah, you know,
and and uh, the the emotional beats hit, but the
action beats uh pull you in, you know, and and
and it builds to a dramatic crescendo. I think it's

(01:47:17):
a remarkably effective movie in this particular genre, you know.
I think it's one of it's one of the better examples.
And I think that's why there was such such excitement
about Brian Singer. Well, if he can do for Superman
what he did for the X Men, then then then
move move aside, you know. Yeah, yeah, and so that

(01:47:37):
you know, like like this this piece right here, you know,
it's it's weirdly devoid of drama as the Daily Planet
globe is about to fall, but it's beautiful, it's beautifully shot.
But this should be I don't I mean, we should
be feeling.

Speaker 2 (01:47:52):
This more, you know, That's what I'm I don't know
if I'm saying it well enough, But I think that's
just it, like it's it's gorgeous. Yeah, and I think
it's like focusing on his gorgeousness more than what it
needs to make us actually feel or experience. Yeah, you know,
because these are gorgeous shots. But yeah, I totally agree

(01:48:12):
with you. I mean, that thing almost yeah, crushed everybody,
but yeah, I'm more focused on how beautiful this shot is.

Speaker 1 (01:48:21):
Atlas right got the globe on his back.

Speaker 2 (01:48:26):
I did think what a terrible design that thing is
on the top of that building, the globe you mad, Yeah,
they did not think that's true.

Speaker 1 (01:48:34):
But I love it.

Speaker 2 (01:48:35):
It's pretty cool it coming off its hinges and crushing
that water tower and then the water beginning to splash
down on Perry like making that look up.

Speaker 1 (01:48:46):
It's all of that tracks and tracks, and I think
in a design sense, I mean there's something that the
the Art Deco approach to the inside of the daily
Planet and the whole you know, the globe and stuff,
that that all works, you know. I I think for me,
I feel slightly at arm's length with this incarnation of Metropolis,

(01:49:10):
whereas you know, the Richard Donner's approach right farisamilitude I
think that that gave a liveliness to to Metropolis in
in those original films.

Speaker 2 (01:49:24):
I agree, because yeah, it feels more like a painting
than a lived in place.

Speaker 1 (01:49:27):
Yeah. And and and just to be clear, why am
I hitting Richard Donner so hard, It's because Brian Singer
has invited that comparison, right right, So I'm like, well,
if you want to continue that, then you have to
you have to pick up on his aesthetic approach, you know. Yep,
totally like they shot this in Sydney, I think, and

(01:49:50):
which was the style at the time, which was the time.
But you know, with the matrix, it wor right because
it's meant to be like slightly unreal, you know, right.
And so there's something about saying this is an American city,

(01:50:11):
but us being like, oh, that doesn't feel like an
American city. Does that make sense? Yeah, totally, especially with
the matrix because it's all Chicago streets and stuff, right right,
right right. You know.

Speaker 2 (01:50:26):
I was reading about how this came out in IMAX,
and there was four scenes that were converted into three D.

Speaker 1 (01:50:35):
And what was funny about that.

Speaker 2 (01:50:36):
I mean that was you know, that was just the beginning, right,
and we would have this whole Avatar and then every
movie was being converted into three D.

Speaker 1 (01:50:43):
I didn't realize. I thought this was kind of early
for that thing. I didn't realize it was happening. I
associate it with, you know, two thousand, late two thousands.

Speaker 2 (01:50:52):
Yeah, but I was reading the way that they let
you know to put on your three D glasses, because
it wasn't the whole film was. There'd be an icon
of Clark Kent's glasses flashing in green at the bottom
of the screen, like, put on.

Speaker 1 (01:51:07):
Your glasses, folks.

Speaker 2 (01:51:09):
I just I just thought that was kind of an
almost cute, charming little artifact.

Speaker 1 (01:51:14):
Yeah, that's a different time.

Speaker 2 (01:51:17):
A different time, different time. I don't remember that though.

Speaker 1 (01:51:22):
Did you just see this in three D? Do you
remember that? I don't believe I saw this in three D? Yeah. Yeah.
You know what's funny is I remember before this came out,
Warner Brothers Home Video had released this, just this cavalcade
of Superman stuff on DVD. So like Loeis and Clark

(01:51:48):
season whatever, you know, the George Reeves show season whatever,
the super Boys show finally came out on DV, like
all the Superman, the Amiate series, you name it. All
this stuff came out on DVD, and I got all
that shit, all of it, okay, and each of them
came with a free ticket to see Superman Returned. So
I'm like, all right, well, this is fantastic because I'm

(01:52:10):
gonna be watching the shit out of this movie. I'm
gonna be I'm gonna be going every night for a week. Yeah.
And then I watched it opening night, me and No'm
gonna and it ended and I was like, well, okay
then and all those tickets went to waste.

Speaker 2 (01:52:29):
I'm trying to think of like the funny thing you
would do with the extras. I mean, you'd obviously throwing
them over your shoulders, like the laziest one, like setting
them ablaze in like a burning trash barrel or something,
walking away with your leather jacket collar popped up.

Speaker 1 (01:52:44):
But that's the thing. I didn't even feel that level
of disconnect from this movie, or you know, I didn't
walk out of the theater so dissatisfied.

Speaker 2 (01:52:55):
Okay, yeah, you just saying that now it makes me wonder, Yeah,
what did I mean? I said how we felt at
the end of Crystal Skull. What was your feeling walking.

Speaker 1 (01:53:04):
Into the theater? I was like, I was basically like, okay, okay, interesting,
you know, and and kind of like, okay, okay, I
guess that's what we're doing now. And you know, I'd
have to go back and read my review. My review

(01:53:26):
at the time was was generally positive, and it was
positive in the context of Okay, we've got like a
foundation here, now let's build on it, right And and
I remember very distinctly talking about the plane crash sequence
and singling that out, and I said, like, I drew

(01:53:48):
that nine eleven connection. I was like, in the fantasy
of the world of the movies, we have Superman who's
able to catch a falling plane, you know, before it crashes,
and and it spoke to that moment, you know. But
I remember being like, okay, kind of, let's see what
they do in the next one. Sure, And so who knows,

(01:54:09):
right had they made I mean, their intention was to
make a sequel, and based on the box office they weren't.
It wasn't unwarranted to think that there was an audience
for it. I think what ended up kiboshing those plans
was Brian Singer kept getting busy with shit to do,
and then finally it just you know, the all the
actors contracts Sunset it.

Speaker 2 (01:54:30):
You know, yeah, maybe you imagine with the sort of
middling response, Yeah, he lost some.

Speaker 1 (01:54:37):
Enthusiasts, lost the enthusiasm, I would imagine. I mean, he
said later. I think this was after he made Jack
the Giant Slayer. He's like, if I had to do
it again, I I just reboot it. I wouldn't have
cast Brandon Routh something like that. I'm like, bro, yeah,
kind of a dick. Yeah. Yeah. I think he even

(01:54:58):
said he would have cast Nicholas Holt and in the
lead role, as I recall, which is ironic because now
here he is, Yeah, an a lead role. If not
the league we've been pretty young then, yeah, right, I
mean when was that like twenty ten or something. M Yeah,
Actually I don't know how old he is Nicholas Holt.
I mean he's got to be in his thirties now, yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:55:20):
But yeah, this worldwide, it made just under four hundred million. Yeah,
got two hundred million in the US. So yeah, you know,
I think it was at the ninth highest grossing movie
of two thousand and six, So it's in there, but
certainly not what they would expect.

Speaker 1 (01:55:36):
Well, my recollection is that I think a week later,
priors to the Caribbean two came out and just clabbered it.
Oh okay, And in fact, I remember, now that I
think about it, I remember I visited Chicago the week
so I watched this, and then that next week, you know,
I'm and I went to Chicago and we were at Oberweiss,

(01:55:58):
the dairy, you know, and this was across the street
from this. This is on Army Trail, so like, you know,
near near Strafford Square, and we're sitting there eating ice cream,
and a whole bunch of kids, like teenagers come in
all dressed like Pirates and they just got out of
the Pirates of the Caribbean screening. Yeah, and I was like,
oh shit, Like that was the first time I realized like, oh,

(01:56:19):
this is a thing like Pirates. Yeah, that was a moment.
Those movies were huge. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:56:27):
See now this feels like I just checked. There's about
with credits forty minutes left. Yep, this should be twenty
minutes left. Absolutely, one hundred percent.

Speaker 1 (01:56:39):
Yeah, this is like your third act here. Now logistically,
here's the problem. So this is Lex Luthor's big land
mask that he's going to have people fighting to live on? Yes,
is Lex luthoran an idiot? See?

Speaker 2 (01:56:54):
That was my That's my memory when I think of
this movie is he had this plan to create new Land,
but it looked like a hellscape. Yeah, and I remember
that feeling ridiculous. So I was kind of eager in
rewatching this to see if there was some sort of
explanation or you know, that was dealt with. But there
isn't Like you could even imagine him being like no, no, no,

(01:57:15):
what is this? You know, like he had he realizes
he had a plan, but he didn't think it through
entirely and it's not going to work.

Speaker 1 (01:57:21):
You could do that right now.

Speaker 2 (01:57:22):
He still seems so confident in this moment. Why not
have him be furious that it's not working the way
he thought it would. And then he stabbed Superman with
the Kryptonite, and you know, like, why is he still
so okay with what he's created?

Speaker 1 (01:57:37):
Or even like, don't even have that be the plan?
Just have this be his thing to this is his
final revenge against Superman, like luring him to this land
mass that's poisonous to him. Yeah, sure, we like why
have I mean, he's made multiple powerpoints or whatever with
his island growing or what. Right. I'm like, like, he

(01:58:00):
obviously has bought into that, and I'm like, but that's stupid. Yeah,
so just have this b year trap for Superman. Sure,
you know, Yeah, that's funny too.

Speaker 2 (01:58:10):
By the way that you bring up the power points,
because they aren't power points, there are these like actual
printed masks's true lower effort.

Speaker 1 (01:58:17):
Yeah, it's very funny in old school.

Speaker 2 (01:58:19):
And then he had the several made of the progression
of the growth of the land.

Speaker 1 (01:58:25):
He hits the button, yeah exactly, and then it looked
like this. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:58:35):
Well he had to have a conversation with the artist
and be like, maybe this one is like this much growth, okay,
And then I'm thinking, yeah, maybe five seven seven's too many.

Speaker 1 (01:58:44):
It's like George Lucas talking to the concept artists, you know, yeah,
exactly exactly. See now this here, I think, I think
this notion of Lexu, they're just beating the living shit
out of Superman. That's that's effective, you know, And and
you know, I mean it's kind of heartrending when he
stabs him with that Kryptonite shard and stuff. Yeah, but

(01:59:07):
it feels I don't know, you tell me it feels
so incongruous with the Lex that we have seen before,
and I just mean the gene Hackman Lex. Sure, sure,
you know what I mean like it it. I don't
see how we get from that Lex to this one. Yeah,
the brutality, the yeah, yeah, unless it's something see okay,

(01:59:32):
a couple of things. Yeah, Lex Luthor was in jail
and then Superman didn't show up to the Pearl hearing,
so they let him go. Yeah, okay, clearly the system
is broken. Yeah, like you need Superman to testify and
not you know everything Lex did right, right evidence? Yeah?

(01:59:54):
Yeah right, So that's weird, right, And.

Speaker 2 (01:59:57):
Shouldn't Superman be aware of that before he leaves? I
don't think his planet, if there's remnants, it's not going anywhere.

Speaker 1 (02:00:06):
Stupid, right, So anyway, my point is, what if between
the time Superman left and now, like Lex Luthor has
been through something that's made him far worse, you know
what I'm saying, Like something has happened.

Speaker 2 (02:00:22):
Yeah, he's like a de Niro and Cape Fear. We
see him doing pull ups and he's got like tattoos
on his back.

Speaker 1 (02:00:27):
Now I mean something. I mean you're joking, but kind
of you know, yeah, no, yeah, that's the funny version.
But yeah, right, something like that, something that's made him
this way.

Speaker 2 (02:00:37):
M h yeah, yeah, yeah, A switches flipped.

Speaker 1 (02:00:43):
You know, maybe maybe how about this, like a in
a weird way, he he needed Superman when he was gone,
and because of Superman not being there, he lost something
or someone mm hmmm mmmmm. So it's this weird like

(02:01:04):
dichotomy where he hates Superman. He should be glad he's gone,
but when he is gone, he needed him, and now
he blames him for being gone even though he should
be happy. Does that make sense? I love that, right,
I love that. Yeah. But that's that's the funny thing.

Speaker 2 (02:01:19):
Is this movie, for as long as it is, it's
almost like deceptively simple.

Speaker 1 (02:01:25):
Yeah, you know, it's well, what did you say, right,
it's under two hours of story? Yeah, I think that's
about right. And it's over two and a half hours. Yeah.
Well it's because it's there's like twenty minutes of the
hospital stuff and all, you know, like yeah, yeah, see

(02:01:45):
this here, like like when he gets stabbed and he's
having trouble breathing and stuff. I mean, it's it's very
heart wrenching, right, But I I think that I need
we needed more build up to that we needed it
needs to hit more.

Speaker 2 (02:02:00):
I think, yeah, yeah, you mean like in this moment,
specifically the execution.

Speaker 1 (02:02:09):
Yeah, Like I don't I don't know that. Let me
put this. I think it's effective to see Superman like
take a pounding, you know, like to I think that's
a good thing. We should see that he has weaknesses.
But I we don't have the history with this Superman

(02:02:30):
and this Lex to make this moment hit. And again
it's what I'm saying, like it's it wants us to
to sort of imprint all of that prior history. Yeah,
but what I said before, I don't believe that the
gene Hackman Lex would do this. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:02:47):
Yeah, I mean that just feels like a problem covering
the entire film, right, I mean, going back to this
his what we're supposed to be bringing ourselves the history
of Lewis and Clark here, which I'm just not feeling
or able to fill in.

Speaker 1 (02:03:07):
Yeah. So, speaking of Richard being a hero here, you
know what I mean, like, god damn hero, Yeah, he
really is. And and I I mean James Marsden is
just talk about one of the most dependable actors. Yeah, totally.
You plug this guy in, he's going to give you

(02:03:27):
something good. Yeah, and he and he's good in this
for a.

Speaker 2 (02:03:30):
Long time, I mean even recently as that showed Jury Duty. Yes, exactly,
fun watching him let loose a little bit on that,
do do something different or or like the Sonic movies, right, yeah,
I'm like the guy, but the man knows the assignment,
you know, Anchorman two am, Jack Lamee.

Speaker 1 (02:03:55):
Yeah, everything what's happening here is.

Speaker 4 (02:04:02):
Somewhat effective, but it's just it's just so slow.

Speaker 1 (02:04:07):
Yeah, you know, just luxuriates to Ah. Well, well you
said languid. I think that's really appropriate. I mean this
should be high stakes, right, yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I
don't know if it's if if it's the the editing
where something's getting lost or or yeah. Well, and again

(02:04:30):
the visuals are so muddy that it it despite it
being shot well and to your point, beautiful shot compositions,
but not necessarily pleasant to look at always.

Speaker 2 (02:04:45):
Yeah, and that you know, it could be that he
literally shot a series of concept art or storyboards or whatever.
But sometimes you have to let go of the thing
you have in your head for the sake of flow.

Speaker 1 (02:04:58):
Yeah, you know, yeah, this is great. I mean I
like this.

Speaker 2 (02:05:06):
Yeah, and it's almost ironic too. And here Superman can't fly,
but Richard can. There you go, little boy. You know,
it's funny when he goes goes down the water fall
and there's that shot where you see the craggy rocks
and it disappears behind and of course you know you
gotta wait like two to three beats and then it'll

(02:05:28):
come closer to the camera.

Speaker 1 (02:05:30):
It made me think, who invented that shot? That gets
used a lot. That's funny.

Speaker 2 (02:05:35):
Wow, you know you you I don't know if Hitchcock
came up with that whole dolly zoom thing, but we
attribute it to him.

Speaker 1 (02:05:41):
Mm hmm. So I was like, yeah, who came up
with that? That's a that's a really uh effective beat.
I mean, we see coming now. Unfortunately, well, if I may,
you can you can expect to see something in that
lineage when you watch the New Superman. The dolly zoom, no, no,
the drop. Oh really yep? Oh funny. Okay, that's not

(02:06:02):
a spoiler, but sure, that's so funny.

Speaker 2 (02:06:08):
I would love it to be from like Porky's or
something like Terrible Movie. So everyone is like, oh, we
don't know where that came from. You know, it's you know,
we don't need to give it a name.

Speaker 1 (02:06:20):
It started it was in Birth of a Nation, right exactly, yeah, exactly.
That's quite a long shard. I was like, ouch, yeah,
well and and he he broke it off, right, see.
So now we we get this Superman recovering and and

(02:06:44):
then you know, the big climactic moment is is Superman
lifting the island into space, which you think at the
script stage they would have been like, you know, maybe
that's not that's not really the crowd pleaser.

Speaker 2 (02:07:00):
That that we that we want to go for, you know,
right right right, you want to shut something down with
a ticking clock or you want to like, yeah, it's
something like think about.

Speaker 1 (02:07:10):
The climax of Batman begins. Yeah, oh yeah, right, it's
the train going into the center of the town or
Wayne Tower, and right, I mean there's a clear sense
of progression of what we have to do and what's
what's stopping our hero from doing it? Right, and it
all works and then by this moment it must be

(02:07:30):
done by this moment, yeah, you know, and and there's
none of that here because the notion of this this
the Kryptonian island is so abstract, and it seems like
Superman has already seen that right there, the CGI double
you're telling me you couldn't have just put him on

(02:07:52):
wires and just I mean client, you know, yeah, I
do like I like them reinforcing this is this is
something very similar in Batman versus Superman, where he gets
recharged by the sun. I do like that. Yeah, but
that sense that the island is going to destroy Metropolis,

(02:08:19):
you know, like what the movie has done is oh
well he had Superman zipped through the city, he stopped
the globe, and now Metropolis is safe. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Now,
always take care of this island.

Speaker 2 (02:08:30):
This thing should be continuing to grow exactly. Seems like
it's kind of stopped, right.

Speaker 4 (02:08:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:08:36):
Yeah, that's a good point.

Speaker 2 (02:08:37):
This should be coming closer and closer, and a tidal
wave is coming and boats are lifting out of the water,
and if this ant gets any bigger, it's gonna, yeah,
squash the city.

Speaker 1 (02:08:49):
So he's got to get rid.

Speaker 2 (02:08:50):
Of it before it can. Yeah, can get any bigger?

Speaker 4 (02:08:53):
Do that?

Speaker 1 (02:08:53):
Yeah? Yeah? Yeah, Yeah, it's good. It's good. It's good.
Now now X has these I guess the floppy discs basically, right,
these crystals, Yeah, but he doesn't what's he supposed to
do with those? Yeah, he doesn't have the player, Yeah,
the drive to put them in. Well, I mean, but

(02:09:16):
is that what he was he was am I wrong?

Speaker 2 (02:09:18):
He was shaving shavings of that mixed with the kryptonite
is what was creating these.

Speaker 1 (02:09:23):
So he's just gonna make more islands, that's right.

Speaker 2 (02:09:26):
Yeah, so that I didn't realize that. Well, I guess
that goes back to the multiple maps. I guess this
is map one we're looking at, and so he's just
gonna it makes no sense.

Speaker 1 (02:09:35):
Why are we.

Speaker 2 (02:09:38):
It's not like he makes a new mass and they'll
connect in some sort of what was the next step?

Speaker 1 (02:09:43):
Hold on? Let me see? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (02:09:49):
Yeah, who oh, these are out of order here? Hold on, man, Yeah,
you know, and it's funny. I know, Well, the tones
are very different in the first one. But the Parker

(02:10:12):
Posy character, like she just seems so I feel like
sad every time I see her. And then even this
moment here where she throws the crystals out of the helicopter. Yeah,
and then she just she almost sounds like an abused
partner where she's just like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 (02:10:27):
I was like, this is unpleasant. So she is essentially
the miss Testmacher character.

Speaker 2 (02:10:32):
Yeah, yeah, so I wish she had like maybe a
little more spunk to her, like she's doing something heroic here,
she's doing something bold, she's finally going against this guy.
And it just the way that it's executed to me
just feels so, I don't know, not fun.

Speaker 1 (02:10:52):
You know, it is fascinating to me. How how some
of these beats just replay right, Like again, it's she's
it's just like Valerie Parene in the first one, and
then you know, there's there's the Lex Luthor has a
love interest in the Newer in the new film, and

(02:11:12):
and it's just it's weird how you have these echoes,
you know, And I'm like, wow, maybe it's just like
that's that's how these stories are, you know. Sure, you know,
like i'd.

Speaker 2 (02:11:23):
Almost want to see her owning her moment here, Yeah
I did it sort of like billions of people are
gonna die, yeah, you bastard, Like no, like yeah, but
it just like I said, it's almost played like too realistic.

Speaker 1 (02:11:37):
Herd tears and apologizing to him, and well but that
that that gets to what I think is just a
tonal misunderstanding. Yeah, because what what the seventy eight movie
gets is that, you know, even as it treats the

(02:11:57):
subject matter seriously, there there's a little bit of archness. Yeah. Yeah, yeah,
and you know it sort of just reminding you, well,
we're having fun here still, you know, yeah, yeah, you know.
And where Lex Luthor's launching the two missiles is in
the seventy eight movie, and Superman's like, you don't even

(02:12:18):
know where the second missile's going. He's like, I know
exactly where it's going, Hackensack, New Jersey. And and that's
where Miss Testmaker's like, thanks, my mother lives in hacken Sack,
and he just kind of looks at his watch and
he's like no, you know, and it's horrible, but it's funny,
you know, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, And and that's what
this movie misses is kind of finding finding the levity

(02:12:38):
in this stuff, you know.

Speaker 2 (02:12:40):
Yes, yes, yeah, But you know, hasn't that been a
common problem with Superman, Like it seems like they're afraid
to let it be joyful or lest it feel.

Speaker 1 (02:12:53):
Corny or have the humor or something. Yeah. Absolutely, But
then we have, you know, exhibit A right here happens
when you don't do that. Yeah, well, especially here right
where where we've already established that the island is laced
with kryptonite, and so Superman lifts into space. And I

(02:13:14):
can track with that the idea that like that's just
he's fighting through he's doing you know, like this is
killing him, but he's going to do it. But again,
I feel like it would mean more if if the
stakes were a little more clearly delineated. Yeah, like even
this here, it's like people are just in Metropolis kind

(02:13:34):
of watching at a distance.

Speaker 2 (02:13:36):
Yeah, yeah, you know what I mean, he's preventing an
active threat.

Speaker 1 (02:13:40):
Yeah, but he isn't. I'm like if he were, Yeah,
that's that's that's righting. Yeah. Yeah, and so it's it's
Superman versus an island.

Speaker 2 (02:13:50):
As everyone just kind of watches, yeah, idly from the
side sidelines.

Speaker 1 (02:13:56):
Although this looks pretty cool, I gotta say I agree. Yeah,
you're right. I mean I like all of this.

Speaker 2 (02:14:04):
If if seeing him sweat and pushing this thing into space,
it's all great. Just to your point, if they had
added attention around it.

Speaker 1 (02:14:15):
Yeah, something something that you can is tangible, you know
and and this sense of like this will kill me,
but this is what I have to do. Yeah, you know,
and this is why the world needs Superman. Hey, look
at that. It's almost like it's a what do you
call it? Christ parallel? Yeah, that's the other thing I've

(02:14:40):
I need Superman to I need I need Superman stories
to stop hitting us in the in the head with that,
like we get it. If we got I appreciate it,
and and it's important, but you know a little less. Yeah. Yeah,
I feel like that came in with seventy eight, like

(02:15:04):
that really really driving home the Christ metaphor. Yeah, I
don't remember, Like how is it alluded to in that movie? Well,
what I'm thinking of is is you have jorel like
when he sees the jorel Ai right and he says,

(02:15:26):
you know, they can be a good people. They wish it.
They lack only the light to show the way, and
that is why I've sent them you my only son.
Ah gotcha pretty on the nose, right, And I'm like,
I'm fine with that. But you know, when we do
like the Crucifixion pose every other version, it feels cheap somehow,

(02:15:49):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (02:15:49):
Maybe that's me, or it's like that's an interesting thing.
Someone clocked yes, and so they did it.

Speaker 1 (02:15:56):
Great. Yeah, but it doesn't need to become part of
the checklist for everything for every version. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:16:02):
Yeah, there's something effective about seeing Superman on a gurney
in a hospital. Yeah, and of like makes you oh, no,
like seeing someone so powerful be vulnerable.

Speaker 1 (02:16:21):
Well, what I like about this? To me? It kind
of evokes a little bit like like Spider Man. Yeah,
Spider Man two when he's on the train yep, right,
Like everybody comes together, yes, exactly, and we're gonna help
him because he helps us. Our hero needs help. Yeah.
So I do like that, me too, Me too. I

(02:16:41):
always like that. I do love that.

Speaker 2 (02:16:43):
I'm trying to jab the needle in his arm if
he bends.

Speaker 1 (02:16:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:16:49):
But then I did think about the defibrillator, and I
was like, I mean, why would it blow up?

Speaker 1 (02:16:54):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (02:16:55):
I mean, he's like maybe he's like kind of made
a steel, but it's not like he's electrified, is he.

Speaker 1 (02:17:00):
Yeah, that's a good question, right, What I mean, I
don't I don't know how forblious work, I'm the one
guy to ask. I don't either.

Speaker 2 (02:17:10):
Now, this is an effective smash cut, I think, right,
but it feels like a Simpsons thing. I will, I
will admit I didn't remember the ending of this movie.
So then the hard cut to the Superman is dead headlines.
But then yeah, this slow move the camera revealed that

(02:17:31):
there's two headlines.

Speaker 1 (02:17:32):
Right Millhouse. I'm so sorry he can't hear you anymore.
That's causing his ears. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:17:40):
Or it's like the when Bart goes to Millhouse's place,
the one you call Millhouse is gone, and he's like
what He's like, yes, to his grandmother's house.

Speaker 1 (02:17:49):
We're fumilating the place, you know. See, So the movie
has gone out of his way to establish that Richard
is a good dude. Yeah right, And so here in
lies the dilemma because obviously it's Superman and Lois. We
want Superman and Low stand up together, but we don't

(02:18:10):
want like Richard to get shafted in this And so
where do where do things go next? Are they just
like co parenting?

Speaker 2 (02:18:21):
Well, according to the kid's picture, that's right, and we
can see who was in the lead.

Speaker 1 (02:18:29):
It's so like like that. Let's say we do a sequel.
Does that entail Richard dying? You know? Like hmmmm, and
what we want him to die so we can feel better,
That's what I'm saying. None of that is good, yeah exactly.

Speaker 2 (02:18:44):
You know, well I thought it was interesting too when
she says we're going to the hospital to parry there
and he gives this knowing smile.

Speaker 4 (02:18:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:18:53):
But then it's like, wasn't this kid you're relative, you.

Speaker 2 (02:18:55):
Know, James Marsen, Like, so you're actively rooting against him
and loves getting back with Superman, even even your own families.

Speaker 1 (02:19:03):
Against you, is it? Doesn't he also play a similar
role in the Notebook, isn't he in the Notebook? Yep?
Yeah no? And in uh Enchanted? Oh yeah, yeah that's right. Yeah,
James Marston always the bridesmaid exactly. Yeah, yeah, I forgot

(02:19:29):
about him in Jury Duty. That was so funny. That
was a really just brilliant, pleasant surprise that serious. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:19:36):
Yeah, if people haven't seen that kind of a twist
on a reality show about these people on jury duty,
that's right, very very entertaining, very sweet.

Speaker 1 (02:19:45):
See. I love all this all the people who are
outside too. That all tracks with me. But again, I
I think we needed more, We needed we needed something
that that can what Superman just did to the people
in terms of being directly impacted by what he did. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

(02:20:10):
because they could have been swayed by Lois's article, like
you know, we did we really need We lived fine
without him for five years, and then when this enormous
catastrophe presents itself and there's nothing they could do to
save themselves from that on land in Metropolis, you do
need Superman. Yeah, oh, it's right there. That's the thing, right,

(02:20:33):
But when he first shows up, well, think about it,
when he first shows back up, everybody's cheering except Lois, right,
and I think that's a mistake. I think people should
be a lot more circumspect, and he's trying to win
them back, and this is the thing he does to
win them back. You're so right. Yep, you know what

(02:20:54):
you mentioned his costume and the boots. Yeah, this shot
made me think, like, damn, there's some clunky boots. They
really they're big and bulky and they got big SSA's
on them.

Speaker 2 (02:21:05):
Yeah, so it made me think it wouldn't be an
easy thing. You know, we always get the which I love,
but the sort of cheat shot of him running down
an alley and then ripping open his buttoned up shirt
and we're like got it, and he's changing into the thing.

Speaker 1 (02:21:17):
But when you really think about it, like, man, when
does he put on those boots? Yeah, that's that's a
lengthy process. Yeah. See, I just I'm I feel nothing
between Lois and him, I know, And and that's a
failing of this movie script where it's done nothing to

(02:21:39):
make us, you know, feel that they have a prior connection.

Speaker 2 (02:21:45):
It would be nice if we had seen her wrestle
a little bit more internally throughout the whole movie. She's
kind of at a distance or dismissive of him, but
it would be nice to see her She has something
she wants to say, but will she allow herself to
do it? And this is the moment now right where
she may lose him, where she finally says the thing
she's been holding back, right exactly, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:22:07):
Yeah, I think even even if it's something like she's
putting on a front towards him, like no, I like
we're done, yeah, exactly right, but we're we're seeing, you know,
in an unguarded moment, that she's she's still pining for
him or whatever. M h. I think that. Look, the

(02:22:30):
problem ultimately it comes down to the fact that the
that the filmmakers created kind of an unsolvable dilemma in
terms of this this love triangle. Yeah, and it's like,
you guys didn't have to do that.

Speaker 2 (02:22:46):
Yeah, you could have just not you know. Yeah, but
you know, sometimes I wonder about this. When you have
someone like Superman, you know, you have Warner Brothers, you
own Superman, every filmmaker wants to make that movie.

Speaker 1 (02:23:00):
Yeah, for better or for worse.

Speaker 2 (02:23:02):
It seems like sometimes they're gonna pick whoever has the
most unique. Take sure, and so what if Superman left
for five years and he has a kid like that
sounds like, oh, well, I don't know what does that
look like? Yeah, I can see why that rose to
the top just because it sounds different than just we're
gonna make a rip Roorn Superman movie. Right, But then

(02:23:26):
this maybe makes the case that that isn't always the
best option just because it sounds the most unique and
interesting and different from what you've done before.

Speaker 1 (02:23:36):
Well, yeah, and I don't doubt that singer goes in
with his pitch and they bought the pitch without the script.
Oh totally. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:23:43):
Well I read that the principal actors signed on without
a script, just like I want to be in Superman
though yep.

Speaker 1 (02:23:49):
Yeah, but directed by Brian Singer of course. Yeah at
that moment of course, mm hm right. And and there
was no reason to think that it wouldn't have have performed.
I mean, you know, like why wouldn't it. I mean,
it's if you watch the behind the scenes stuff, it's
it's very sweet where if Brandon rout, like he's leaving

(02:24:11):
to go film the movie and his family's all saying goodbye,
and you're like, man, this guy and he's about to
just ride that Express train to start him. And to
be fair, i mean, the guy's continued working, right, so
it's not like his career just just tapped out after
this movie. But it is kind of sad because like
he is sort of the George Lazenby of Superman's you know, yeah,

(02:24:34):
you know, yeah, Like that's what I'm saying. I'm glad
he got a chance to come back and and and
put some measure of closure on it. Totally. Yeah, that's nice.
Like I said, if you get the chance, go to
YouTube just watch his his bits from crisisign Infinite Earths.

Speaker 2 (02:24:53):
Oh, this is the little flirty glance the nurse gives
the security guard yeah, which makes you think like, oh,
do they have like a little thing let's go.

Speaker 1 (02:25:00):
That's kind of nice. That's the stuff you want to
be thinking about while you're watching a Superman.

Speaker 2 (02:25:05):
But I mean, you know, she's probably you know, she
doesn't have any lines, you know, But so it's like,
how do you go in and make some sort of
impact with your one little moment? And yeah, I feel like, oh,
I don't know if she did it or the director,
but gave them a little business.

Speaker 1 (02:25:21):
That's hilarious. See like this right here is a great shot.
Right uh huh. Now I'm gonna say, maybe you didn't
need the slow zoom in from behind. Yeah, Like I mean,
you know what I mean, Like this is a very

(02:25:42):
long movie.

Speaker 2 (02:25:42):
I know it would be kind of an interesting if
you had an advanced editing class at a college to
give them.

Speaker 1 (02:25:50):
This movie and be like, what would you do? Like
snap it up a little bit? You know. I remember
reading an interview with Tarantino where he's like, Superman Turns
is great man, Like people don't get it. Yeah, I know.
I think he wrote like a twenty page essay about it,
did he really? Yeah? I haven't read that, but I

(02:26:11):
don't believe him.

Speaker 2 (02:26:14):
He's funny like that, though he seems to like enjoy
having contrarian takes on things just.

Speaker 1 (02:26:18):
For the sake of it. Yeah, but this gets okay,
let's talk about this real quick, so please, So I
don't I don't feel anything here, I know, and I'm
supposed to feel everything. I know, Right, Superman looking at
his son, Yeah, asleep.

Speaker 2 (02:26:39):
Well he's in he's literally invaded a house. They don't
know he's in there, and he's watching his son. And
this is the son he's missed out on for five years,
I mean, unknowingly abandoned.

Speaker 1 (02:26:51):
And yeah, well you know what I thought of a
part of the reason there are no real moments between
Superman and Jays and before this, like just them together. Yeah,
you know, somewhere Superman rescues Jason and they talk and
they laugh together something you know, Yeah, or he recognizes

(02:27:12):
something in him exactly. Yeah, right, because because it's a
very arbitrary way in which Superman ends up here where
he's like, okay, this is my son. Mm hmm. Yeah,
I don't get it. Yeah, it's very stoic. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:27:32):
Also right, like wouldn't you like to see a little
bit of regret on his face and then a little tenderness,
and like, I want to see a whole range of
emotions in this moment, but it's just very Again, I
just feel like I'm looking at a beautiful painting and
someone speaking very you.

Speaker 1 (02:27:49):
Know, I don't know. Yeah, well, I again, at the
time this movie came out, this was a remarkable paradigm
ship because okay, well, now Superman has a kid, and
now you know you have to deal with that. It
is somewhat ironic that you know, in the comic books
since then, you know, they Superman does have a son,

(02:28:10):
and you know that's just in the mix. Now Batman
has a son now too, right, Robin, the current Robin
is Batman's son, and that's fat. I don't read the
comics currently, but that that itself is so fascinating because
that's such a that's such a permanent status shift, right,
Like you can't undo.

Speaker 2 (02:28:29):
That well, and usually that's what a television show does
when they've run out of stories.

Speaker 1 (02:28:34):
Kids.

Speaker 2 (02:28:35):
So maybe yeah, well I'm not saying that that's the
case for their for them, but it's like you are
almost painting yourself into a corner because you see no
other options, you know, at least in terms of TV series.
So it's weird that this is how they would kick
off this new series of Superman movies.

Speaker 1 (02:28:51):
Right, yeah, no, absolutely, yeah. See, so setting up this
idea of like, okay, now they's somewhat like amicable between
each other. But again, let's let's postulate that we move

(02:29:12):
forward with the sequel. There's there's nowhere to go with
the Superman Lowest relationship unless James Marsden, you know, takes
a long walk off a short peer. You like that,
I know, I know you like that. I do for
folks listening, not James Marsden doing the turn of phrase.

Speaker 2 (02:29:35):
Yeah, well, what's the kids supposed to be feeling? I mean,
it's all he knows. Richard is his dad and ye.
But now obviously he's going to want if he senses
some sort of connection between him and Superman, he's going
to want to explore that exactly.

Speaker 1 (02:29:47):
Sad or not sad.

Speaker 2 (02:29:49):
I mean, that happens in life, but it's just overly complicated,
emotionally complicated.

Speaker 1 (02:29:54):
For what I want out of my Superman this right here,
that's cgi Brandon Routh. Yeah, you're telling me you couldn't
just film him. I know there's no point anyway.

Speaker 2 (02:30:02):
Sorry, you were saying, no, no, no, that's all just
overly emotionally complicated, when that's not what I'm showing up
for two hours for with my Superman film.

Speaker 1 (02:30:12):
Right, And so we go through that whole, that whole
emotional rigmarole, and then we end with this restatement of
the John Williams music to be like, yeah, but it's
like that thing you love. Yeah, yeah, and it just
feels dishonest to me, yeah, because it's not.

Speaker 4 (02:30:27):
Right.

Speaker 1 (02:30:28):
It's it's again this like it's cause playing as that
thing that I.

Speaker 2 (02:30:33):
Love, and it's interesting or notable at least that he
does look at the camera.

Speaker 1 (02:30:38):
Yeah, but he doesn't smile. Yeah. Right. Wow, So Superman returns. Wow.

Speaker 2 (02:30:47):
I didn't imagine it's being a two and a half hour.

Speaker 1 (02:30:49):
Dog pile, but I wouldn't call it dog pile. But
airing grievances, airing of grievances absolutely, Yeah. So where are
you at this? This is now your third time watching
it in nineteen.

Speaker 2 (02:31:03):
Years, yeah, and two of those have been in twelve hours.
So I will say I'm sorry for people who listened
and loved this one and we're hoping to hear just more.
I'm sure people are aware that there's a mixed feelings
about this, but yeah, we definitely leaned into well, there's
a dedication to the just forh Reeve Danery, Yeah, both

(02:31:26):
of them. I'm you know, it's it's it's a mixed bag.
I did enjoy seeing it again just for the sake
of curiosity. There's a couple fun moments. And I am
a very visual film viewer. I just I can watch

(02:31:47):
a movie with a sound off and or I could
watch a movie back to back easily because I just
like looking at movies so much, so it doesn't even
matter that I've seen the story already. I just like
studying the frame. So this is this movie's a meal
when it comes to beautiful shots. So I definitely did
get something out of that. But at the end of

(02:32:07):
the day, this isn't a movie that I feel like
watching again just when I want to pop in a
Superman movie another nineteen years maybe kind of. I mean,
for all the reasons we've said, you know now for
the past two plus hours, like it's just the characters
don't feel like they really have any emotional connections. The
story's kind of lacking urgency, languid, I mean that word.

Speaker 1 (02:32:30):
Just keeps coming to mind. Yeah, but beautiful.

Speaker 2 (02:32:33):
So it's it's it's a weird sort of mixed to,
you know, negative leaning.

Speaker 1 (02:32:38):
Bag for me. Yeah. Yeah, well, and let me just
add to that, it's not surprising at all that Warner
Brothers ultimately looked at this as a bit of a
cul de sac. Yeah, you know, because because one thing
that really becomes clear is like, there wasn't really anywhere
appealing to go. Yeah, why would I want to return

(02:32:59):
to this right?

Speaker 2 (02:33:00):
Well, these characterizations because it's not like, oh well then
I want to see what happens next between Clark and Lois, Like, well,
I didn't get anything from this movie that makes.

Speaker 1 (02:33:08):
Me think that cul de sac is the perfect word.

Speaker 2 (02:33:11):
Yeah, the movie that should probably be kicking off a
trilogy feels like a cul de sac that's so apt,
you know. And and so it's not surprising at all
that Warner Brothers went to Christopher Nolan and we're like, hey,
can you can you can you do Superman?

Speaker 1 (02:33:27):
Also? You know, and and you know, it was it
was his development process that ultimately led to David Goyer
and then ultimately Zack Snyder et cetera, et cetera, and
that and that all went fine. Nothing out of the
ordinary happened in the wake of that. But but it

(02:33:49):
is a reflection of like, we swung the pendulum in
this direction, and then we were swinging it all the
way in the other direction, and then to some extent
this current iteration, we're swinging the pendulum all the way
back in, maybe not in this exact direction, but away
from where it was previously, you know. And I'm like,
can we just maybe just find a happy medium? And

(02:34:10):
you know, I hope something takes I hope, I hope
people have learned the appropriate lessons. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:34:18):
Yeah, Well, it feels like people are willing to take
more swings or not more swings. But with Batman, he
gets more opportunity. As what I'm trying to say, like
they just keep making them, and it feels like Superman
has these longer gestation periods, right, you know, and I
wonder why that is.

Speaker 1 (02:34:37):
You know, what's remarkable is that at the time Superman
came the first movie, the seventy eight movie came out,
it was a big hit, and it was like, oh,
we got to do Batman next, and it was like, no, no,
Batman is like, it's that that the sixties tvaw, nobody's
gona take it seriously, you know, And that was such
a high hill to get past that it took, you know,

(02:34:59):
eleven years later for the for the movie to come
out right. But it's like once Batman eighty nine happened,
it just permanently situated Batman in the zeitgeist. Yeah, like,
I mean, it's from Batman will always be cool. Yeah,
you know, I I say that as as a I

(02:35:22):
if it comes down to it, I love them both,
but Superman is still my guy. Uh Superman. It's weird,
how despite the fact that that first movie created generated
such cultural goodwill, Yeah, it it burned off and and
they've they've been trying to recapture it ever since, at
least in the movies, I mean TV wise, Superman has

(02:35:44):
done okay, right, we've had between between uh the Quest
for Peace and and now we've had one, two, three,
four live action SUPERMANO wow. Right, So it's doing fine

(02:36:05):
in that regard. But hopefully this new one will be
where the flint finally catches a flame, you know, I hope.

Speaker 2 (02:36:12):
I'm very excited to talk about it with you soon.

Speaker 1 (02:36:15):
Well. With that in mind, those of you listening, if
you have any thoughts on Superman returns or thoughts on
our thoughts on Superman Returns, you can you can email
us at moviefilmpodcast at gmail dot com. You can also
hit like on our Facebook page Facebook dot com slash
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to Apple Podcasts and leave review, leave a star rating
at Spotify if you don't mind. We also have a

(02:36:37):
Patreon page Bran, Yes we do.

Speaker 2 (02:36:39):
If you head over to Patreon dot com slash moviefilm
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Our free feed will always be available, but this is
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(02:37:00):
satisfying way to enjoy the show without random interruptions and
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Speaker 1 (02:37:18):
We'd be very grateful. There you go, and if you're
looking for me online, you can find me on social
media at Zachie's Corner. That's the Akis Corner. Also look
for my write up at the San Francisco Chronicle where
I look back at the nineteen seventy eight Superman movie
and why it is so important even this many years later. Brian,
what about you?

Speaker 2 (02:37:39):
Episodes I've written of Young Jedi Adventures can be found
streaming on Disney Plus.

Speaker 1 (02:37:45):
There you go, and with that on behalf of my
partner Brian Hall. My name is Zachia. This has been
our commentary track for Superman returns. We'll catch you next time.
Thanks folks,