Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome back to the muster, Eric Croix, as a former
MP and of anybody who has qualified to talk about
the life and times of the late Jim Bolger, former
Prime Minister of New Zealand is Eric. He served under
him with the labor with sorry National Government FRAUDI and
slipped there Eric in the nineteen nineties and joined us
(00:27):
this afternoon just to talk about Jim Bolger and being
a politician and as a person as well. Eric good afternoon,
said news coming out of Jim Bulger's household over the
past couple of days.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Yeah, he had been in very poor health I understand,
and kidney failure and he was on permanent dialozing and
this quality of life was some great So it's said
that he's gone, but yeah, he was in a position
of some suffering as well, So in some ways it's
a bit of a release. Now.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
He was a leader of the first MMP government in
New Zealand. How would you describe him as a politician.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Well, he's an interesting guy. I think he was quite
innovative and quite courageous in many ways. And there's probably
about four reasons I could say that when he went
in in ninety ninety I actually didn't join government till
ninety three. And you remember that we had the rod
genomics and the reforms and David Longears said time for
(01:28):
a cup of tea, and they weren't completed, and Jim
Bolgia the first thing he did was said, well, we're
going to finish these reforms and got into the areas
that the previous labor government hadn't touched, the labor market
and all of those things, and he carried that on
at some political cost. But New Zealand I believe is
in a much better place because that he actually did that.
(01:51):
And then the next things that he actually did was
the first coalition government, and that was brought about because
he said, how on voting system, isn't that fair and
it's predominantly party hart kind of an arrangement in parliament,
so he put a Royal Commission in place to look
at options. He didn't say we should have m MP,
(02:15):
but he put the commission in place which put up
poor options, which in ninety three we voted on and
subsequently the yeah is MP. There there was four answer
freudy and slipped. The MMP was brought in and then
(02:37):
he organized the coalition governments, interestingly, and the other thing
that he started was three settlements and that was good.
And another illustration of his negotiating skill when he went
in in ninety three with the government that the government
had a one seat majority, which when you were at
that stage you had to appoint a speaker, and the
(02:59):
speaker didn't vote because he sat there when there was
a vote ice the right knows to the left tell
us this and he couldn't vote. So that effectively left
a government that was stalled because didn't have a majority.
So he put Peter Tapsill from Labor and a speaker
and to be able to continue on. So I think
he was quite innovative and quite courageous in some of
(03:22):
the things that he did. As as a leader of
the party. I would say, and I'm set under a
few of them. In my eighteen years. He was easily
the most inclusive in the way that he ran caucus.
Some of his caucuses were quite lengthy that he got
criticism for, but everybody was important in caucus, and at
(03:46):
times he'd say, when the minister brought up this is
what you what we're going to do, And if there
was a bit of kickback in caucus, they go away
and do some more work. We're not ready for the
shed And I found to be probably the best chairman
of the board if the caucuses the board while I
was actually there.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Now, when MMP came into fruition, were you an opponent
of it? Because I remember the vote came out with
the four options. Like you say, what was the consensus
throughout the government at the time leading into it.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Yeah, well, I think I think most of those in
the would have voted against it, particularly on the right.
I was probably a supporter of single Transferable vote STV
at the time, recognizing that we needed to have a
system that was a bit more inclusive. But I think
(04:39):
was third or even might have been fourth. So I
say that was the thinking men's option. So I certainly
didn't vote for EMMP. So yeah, that's that's the sure. Interestingly,
in my first term, another feature of Jim Bolgia, I
was made a whip after I'd been there eight months
because of the of judgment by the whipped at the time.
(05:03):
And then the next thing that happened shortly after that,
while I was still learning the Ropes United Future broke
out with four nationals and three labor and the government
had lost its majority again, but they did give what's
called confidence and supply, which is, yeah, we'll support the
money going through. And in the course of that time
(05:26):
that they were there, because they were building a bit
of momentum, we actually lost five votes. And when when
the government loses the vote, the whip has to go
and offer the resignation. And the first time that happened,
I said, I can't whip these United future people. It's
not my fault. And yeah, he accepted that. And by
(05:50):
the time it had happened four or five times and
didn't even report, I just probably texted them and said
that happened again. Couldn't change it. And he was very
understanding of that particular situation.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
I'll take you back to his first term as prime
and at nineteen ninety, a landslide victory, like you say,
the bearest of margins. What changed for the government though,
for things to change the way they did on a
political landscape.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Yeah, well, I think there's been a lot of comparisons
made as to what the government had to do then
and to what it should be doing now. And they
took the cold Turkey approach and said, right, we'll do
this and then almost lost the next election. In fact,
we waited for Alec Neil in Wytaki to win on
(06:39):
specials before we even had that one seat majority. And
I think this particular government that we've got now has
been much more cautious about taking the hard medicine. So
I think, you know, history has a few lessons and
there are some people out there now that went through
the hard core approach to the early nineties to saying
(07:03):
that's how we should do it. Now, let's deal with
it and get it over and done with, rather than
pussy foot around and try and maintain public support and
not do anything. So you know, that's probably the conundrum
that sits on top of the government now.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
It's interesting you mentioned Alec Neil MP for Waite Techie.
He took out Jim Sutton who was a Minister of
Agriculture leading into that election, and just do we byline
two the labor leaders Mike Moore took over from Sir
Jeffrey Palmer. And the reason I remember that is because
when I was at school, was in mass or something
one day and I was board, So I wrote a
letter to Jeffrey Palmer asking him why he's just being
(07:41):
so negative towards the rural sector and blow me down.
He actually replied and signed the letter back as well.
So I just as so I remember that time.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
I think Jeffrey Palmer was a superb intellect. But I
think his legacy was beating up the Select Committee so
that all of the legislation then had to go to
Select Committee for public submission. And so while we're a
unicameral house, we don't have another house, we just have
(08:12):
one house. We have the strongest Select Committee process in
the world that actually deals with reports and bills and
all of that stuff. So I think that's his legacy.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Hey, Eric, will leave it there. We know you're in transit,
but we do appreciate time as always, and great to
hear about Jim Bolgia wrist and peace.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Yep absolutely being a good man for New Zealand.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Derek Croix there reminiscing about Jim Bulger. This is the
muster before the end of the hour, Phil Duncan and
weather Watch. But up next David Ladder, Let's talk this
game of rugby happening in Dunedin tonight.