Eastern Conference Tiers - With Dan Favale & Grant Hughes

Mort is still on vacation, so Dan & Grant took over the feed for a few episodes, concluding with Eastern Conference Tiers.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
What is up, fellow sickos, I am Dan Fha Valley,
Danpa Valley. I don't know my own name. Back with
my with my certain five fantabulous co host, mister Grant Hughes.
We're in peak slash rare form right now. Apparently we're
here a tier the Eastern Conference though, because free agency
isn't over, but it's like kind of dead, and it's

(00:27):
like we're poking RFA's like, God, just get your deals done.
We know you're not going anywhere at this point.

Speaker 2 (00:31):
Nless.

Speaker 1 (00:31):
Maybe your name is Jonathan Kaminga. But we're gonna tear
the Eastern Conference. We're gonna do it live. You can comment.
It's gonna be fun. I'm sure everyone's gonna agree with
everything that we have to say. But first, before we
get started, Grant, how does it feel knowing that you
reported with me conjointly on a trade about Lebron going
to the Dallas that is clearly going to happen, Now

(00:52):
that all these sites and blue check marks are picking
it up and reporting it as such.

Speaker 2 (00:56):
It's all been worth it. That's really what I feel like.
We're just this whole thing, this whole time, We've just
wanted to be insiders, and now you've spoken a trade
into existence, So like, what are the percentage chants that
this trade? Well, can you lay out the I mean,
this isn't what this pod is supposed to be about,
but just so people know what we're talking about.

Speaker 1 (01:17):
Right, So there's something going We talked about it on
the pod. I also wrote about it, but we went
up with Lebron James trades. And the clue that it's
not real is that the stuff that's going around is
We're normally not the type of people that would say,
oh no, like that's totally our thing. Just being repackaged
is some idea. The Utah Jazz were involved, and they
really didn't need to be. It was more trying to

(01:37):
game it to figure out the Lakers books better by
getting rid of Jared Vanderbilt. So the or the rumor,
I can't even it's not a rumor. The aggregation that's
being mispackaged that's going around is Dallas gets Lebron, the
Lakers get PJ. Washington. Daniel Gafford, who is eligible to
be traded even though he's not an extension, Klay Thompson,
Naji Marshall, Kyle Anderson and their own twenty twenty nine

(01:59):
first round pick back the Jazz are getting. They're calling
it picks. I had I think three second round picks
going there, and they're taking on Jared Vanderbilt, who has
those two extra years further more than Kyle Anderson left
on his deal. That was the when I saw the
not Lebron to the MAVs is not something that we created.
But when I saw the package, I was like, the
Jazz didn't need to be there. And if it does

(02:20):
go through, I feel like we should get some sort
of a commission or something like how does that work?
But someone someone's got to have a trade bonus, and
I would like part of it.

Speaker 2 (02:27):
That's all I'm saying. It's just not even like a
big part, just like would be fine.

Speaker 1 (02:31):
It probably fifteeid of that million dollars, that's fine.

Speaker 2 (02:34):
Yeah, I have no problem with that. No, I think
it's great that uh uh. The combination of AI and
a rampant aggregation market has turned a made up trade
into a rumor that people actually have bought now and.

Speaker 1 (02:48):
The other thing being texted about it from people that
are just I know, in respect and what this is
not like so I was like, Wow, this thing is
I didn't realize it must have taken because we talked
about it a while ago and I wrote about it
a little bit ago. It was a slow like normally
these things are picked up like that. This one's been
a slow burn. So you heard it here first. Obviously
we're it was. We were clearly reporting. We weren't just

(03:09):
throwing idea. We weren't just asking questions like.

Speaker 2 (03:11):
We normally do, which we do.

Speaker 1 (03:13):
I have some questions about the Eastern Conference, though, okay,
or you're just you're.

Speaker 2 (03:18):
No, totally understand it and we're not gonna have any
difficult discussions about it.

Speaker 1 (03:23):
Is the king we were mentioning Jeremiah Fears based off
what I've seen from him in summer league. I'm gonna say, no, uh.

Speaker 2 (03:32):
It hasn't looked hasn't looked great. I saw two assists
of ten turnovers, like twenty nine points on thirty something shots.
Not great.

Speaker 1 (03:40):
Some I honestly, I only read into summer league when
it's good. I just that's the that's the that's the
I mean think about summer league is when it's good,
just read into it. But if he's a first year player,
if he was like a third year player and it's oh, okay, yeah, then.

Speaker 2 (03:51):
Well and he's like he's like built to be bad
as a rookie. Like all of his all the things
he's good at and all the things he's bad at
are just like, that's gonna be a bad rookie, don't you.

Speaker 1 (04:00):
Dare tell Troy Weaver and Joe Dumore's dad, don't you
buy that?

Speaker 2 (04:03):
I mean, they're just playing the long game.

Speaker 1 (04:05):
So we started off the Eastern Conference pod talking about
four Western Conference teams. Congratulations to us. Do you have
any like criteria you were trying to follow? We have
six tiers they'll be separated into, so like, any notes
or quotes or concerns before we get started?

Speaker 2 (04:21):
Yeah, I probably should have a more uh like well
defined rubric here. But I do feel better about it
because you came up. I don't know where your what
your tears look like. You didn't really discuss this too
much beforehand. I think if I had to boil it down,
I would just say I'm trying to split tea. I
guess it just has to be like championship equity or
like likelihood of making the finals or which which really

(04:44):
to me? Is like a pretty sort this early. It's
kind of a proxy for like how do you think
the standings will shake out? You know, because you're sort
of like you're saying the same thing whether you're tiering
it based on like title equity or or like who's
going to win the conference during the dear season. To me,
it's like early enough that those are kind of the
same thing. But we will have discussions about a couple

(05:06):
of these teams where it's like, you know, they could
they're finish in the conference, might not necessarily line up
with what we think their title odds might be once
the playoffs hit.

Speaker 1 (05:16):
Do we need some type rule because we're gonna come
to a Consensushould we implement a rule on the spot
where do we each get like one or two vetos
to where it's like you feel strongly about I want
to put the knicks into your f which they're not.
It's just dop and you're like, well, like, I'm gonna
veto that they go into your eds.

Speaker 2 (05:30):
I support this. I will not use my veto on
the veto rule.

Speaker 1 (05:34):
All right, So we're each going to get a veto.
That'll be fun. Uh, were ready to get started and
I guess we could just pick We'll go back and
forth on which teams. We're not gonna go alphabetically because
that I don't think people will stay tuned to the
end of that when you look at some of the
teams in the East at the end of the alphabet.
Let's get started here, grant you could pick the first
team who you want to talk about?

Speaker 2 (05:53):
Oh, we're just we're not gonna just go from the
bottom up. We're just gonna pick a random team. Great.

Speaker 1 (05:57):
Oh yeah, well we could do that. You want to
you want to start that.

Speaker 2 (06:00):
I think you start from the bottom and then worked
for Yeah, so we're in Tier F. This is our
our our worst tier. Everybody's gonna have. I mean, this
won't be a shock, I think. So let's I'll go.
Let's go Wizards. They are unfortunately for them.

Speaker 1 (06:13):
Although they don't we kind of around here, right, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (06:16):
They're right where they want to be, right where they
ought to be. I think this is just still very
very far away. Obviously, you know. We like Koolibali, we
like sar We like bub Carrington, Kaishan George, we like Tree,
I mean like Trey Johnson. Looks interesting at least in
Summer League. But this is like every one of those

(06:38):
guys I mentioned, I think you don't get too far
into like the the like give me the bio or
give me the status report without hitting like, oh, there's
like a real issue that this guy might not be good,
you know, like Sar's scoring efficiency or like George's three
point shooting being all over them, like they all have flaws.
But I think generally speaking, we think Washington is gonna

(07:01):
be bad. But that's kind of the plan. So you know,
this isn't like we're not We're not killing them by
putting them in the bottom tier. I don't think even
Wizards fans have any illusions about how good this team
will be. What do you have different Wizards thoughts. I
mean that's I feel like we've kind of been pretty
well aligned on them for a while.

Speaker 1 (07:18):
Yeah. The thing about the Wizards is they're trying very
hard to be bad, and I think they'll be successful.
I was trying to think, like there's probably what one
team that I could see being worse than them in
the East, Like I just don't like, so that's.

Speaker 2 (07:32):
Our disaster, right, like our.

Speaker 1 (07:34):
Disaster, But is there a pathway towards them? Like they
already got rid and heone's gonna play a huge role Anewy,
but like you already get rid of Kelly Link. If
they decide to play like the older guys a lot
like if Smart is still there in Middleton is still
there and see, like those are still really good basketball
players that I could see them being friskier, especially if
you're gonna cake in like improvement from the young guys

(07:58):
that you're like Alex Sars had some really good Summer
League moments, especially like defensively, So I'm with you. I'm
not making like a tier like s case for the
Wizards right now. Well, like they just have some guys
who could pop and then also some capable veterans that
if they decide to if they get improvement from the
young guys, but they also have these playable veterans, it

(08:18):
gets tough they're gonna have. My point is they might
have to make some moves to continue being as bad
as they want for this season, was my point.

Speaker 2 (08:24):
Yeah, And some of those moves might just be like, hey,
Chris Middleton, you're getting You're just not gonna play that much.
It may just it may be that kind of a
move where it's like we just understand what we're doing
here on both sides. I actually think I think there's
two teams that like without disaster striking, although one of
them might just the Charlotte and Brooklyn. I think they're

(08:48):
both in this bottom tier. For me, I could see
either of those teams being worse than Washington. Charlotte's maybe
the one you'd bump on, just because, like, if we're
saying no disasters allowed, then well, the LaMelo ball ankle
injury feels pretty disaster, but does it because it's kind
of like the expectation at this point that he's going
to miss time. So there's like a fairly like mid

(09:10):
range outcome for Charlotte in which they win twenty two
games or something, you know what I mean. They have
more talent in general. Also, they're trying to be bad too,
so well, well they're sure they're taking their time, they're
not they're not making win now moves, I guess is
the more fair way to say it.

Speaker 1 (09:25):
I think when you look at like having Collin sext
In there, like the moves they've made this offseason, I
could see them being really good on offense, especially if
the Melo ball plays in fifty games, like the offense
could legitimately be top ten, I think except for the fact,
like what's the planet center right, Charlotte right now? I
support the Mark Williams trade was fine. Well I'm not
a Mark Williams guy overall, but it's like over like diabate,

(09:45):
just like we're just hoping for him to like come
in and make some serious waves here. So I think
they belong in this tier. I could. I'm not going
to fall into the trap last year. It's oh, they
got a lot of NBA guys on the roster, they're
gonna be better. I got Cody Martin piled last season
and I smashed They're over and that turned out poorly.
You're right about LaMelo. I think would this be the order?
So if we were to try to rank them within tears,

(10:06):
Wizards still at the bottom with the Nets the Nets.
The funniest synopsis I've seen to the Nets offseason is
that they drafted five versions of this same player.

Speaker 2 (10:14):
Well, yeah, I love that. Yeah, it's hard to ignore
that they went heavy on like I mean, if you're
trying to be really bad, making it very likely that
you're going to have a rookie on the ball a
lot is a great way to do it, and they
kind of have set themselves up for that with their drafts.
So I do think I think Charlotte if we're really
mini teering this, which which we will do as we

(10:35):
move up, But like you could put Charlotte in its
own above Brooklyn and Washington. But I think, you know,
all three of these teams are more likely to lose
to let's see, to lose sixty games than they are
to win forty, Like you know what I mean, that's
a confusing way to put it.

Speaker 1 (10:55):
But I don't even know. So if we assume I
don't even know what to make of the nets, like
they're really testing like the limits of Jordi Fernandez being
a good coach when you kind of look like, if
we assume Cam Thomas is going to be back, they
have their primary on ball guys are gonna be yegor
Demon Cam Thomas, and I guess Michael Porter Junior, who's
not really an on ball guy. At least you'll have
plenty of information on the rookies. But man, that team,

(11:19):
it almost felt like their read was, Okay, we thought
we were really bad last year. We weren't bad. Enough,
and that's not happening this year because you don't want
to fall behind in the tanking race. And they're interesting
because they don't own their twenty twenty seven first round pick,
so like after next summ like at next summer, they
might try to hit the turbo button a little bit.

Speaker 2 (11:37):
Right. Yeah, well this so I mean framed another way,
this is the year to be bad if they can
do it right, like, because that twenty six pick is
when you got a cash in. If you're going to
cash in and you can't, there's no payoff for being
really bad a third time, So this is when it
needs to bottom out.

Speaker 1 (11:51):
I think, ooh, we have a couple Hornets comments. I
love this. Charlotte has some hope now at least. Yeah. Well,
I think the Jeff Peterson lead front office is just
I don't know that they've gotten every move right, but
it's like their direction. They're clearly playing the longer game. Starvell.
I'm a biased Hornets fan, but I really feel like
thirty wins is a more reasonable outcome with the moves
they have made, at least a tier per above maybe

(12:15):
Brooklyn and Washington, like I think you could probably talk
about and maybe this is a team we'll get into
as we're fringing out the people, like they could. I
could see the Hornets being a little Raptor Z just
because the Raptors have better top end talent, but their
roster doesn't necessarily make a ton of sense. So I
could see them being like two teams that that collide.
But yeah, I think the Hornet's direction is fine. I
think the one move I might quibble about the most

(12:37):
that they've made with this front office was the t
John Salon pick. Right, but well, like.

Speaker 2 (12:42):
Well even for him, it's even he's so young, like ye,
I think just like the eye test is scary and
the numbers are awful, but like, I just don't watching
him play. I don't quite understand the theory of like
what he's supposed to be. But I'm trying to be
better about not just just forming a judgment on a
guy that's like played most of the year as a teenager.

(13:04):
I think, or like he was one of the youngest
players in that class, so it's like we're nowhere near
knowing what he's gonna be.

Speaker 1 (13:09):
He might also benefit because I'm assuming that LaMelo ball
is gonna benefit, like as a playmaker even a score
is just having more shooting around him, and that might
be someone with t John Salan if you need to
get him going downhill. Like, Okay, now you have Collin Sexton,
you have Conkippole, you have Leam McNeely. Excuse me, Like,
you just have a bunch of dudes that are more

(13:29):
versatile than last year. So we'll see how that pans out.
But I like the Hornet's direction going to next season.
I don't like, could you win thirty games and be
the third worst team in the East. No, that's too high, right.

Speaker 2 (13:40):
No, I think you could do it because look like
last year, so Washington won eighteen, Charlotte won nineteen, and
then you jump all the way to the sixers at
twenty four, all the way to twenty four, but Brooklyn
had twenty six. So yeah, you could definitely win thirty.
It'd be maybe a little bit unusual, And like thirty
is a number that if you're headed towards that you
probably try to nose dive to get, you know, make

(14:02):
sure you don't hit thirty. Twenty five is better than
thirty lottery position wise, probably, But yeah, I think I
think you could. I don't know like, I don't know
what they want. I don't know if they want to
win thirty, you know what I mean. They've been so
smart and delaying gratification that they if they're on pace
to be like a tenh seed, they might just shut
it down like that. That wouldn't be a shock.

Speaker 1 (14:22):
Jerry Lusa has if a healthy sophom LaMelo let a
less talented team to a positive record with Mason Plumley's
starting center, don't sleep. Mason plummy might be their starting
center and gets back, so he's back. Charlotte can definitely
get to thirty healthy. Your biggest issue, I mean, but
it's a when LaMelo's involved, it's a pretty look if
anyone If I don't know if any of these people
fought like people should know how I feel about LaMelo

(14:44):
Ball specifically, I think he is so underrated and I
would I would not never move him. If not never,
But like all the trade stuff, I'm holding on to them.
I think the contract is fine. I think the player
is great, but like we can't just ignore like this
data with all the the lower body injuries. Yeah, do
you want to take us through the start of our
next tier?

Speaker 2 (15:02):
Yeah? I don't know. Where to go. Here, I'll go
I'll start from what I guess is the bottom. Maybe
I'll start from the drop.

Speaker 1 (15:10):
Sorry, does it start the Drake song? Someone? Is it
from the bottom? We start from the bottom? Is that
a DrAk song? Okay?

Speaker 2 (15:16):
You should know that you're younger, you should know that. Uh,
I'm gonna go the top of this next tier and
we will discuss the Miami heat.

Speaker 1 (15:26):
Oh yeah, just drag him out there for the mind.

Speaker 2 (15:28):
I mean so, I'm just I just want to sort
of anchor myself here. So thirty seven and forty five
last year they had the Butler thing to deal with.
I think we and we got a Tyler Hero breakout,
which even at the end of it, everybody was kind
of like, is Tyler Hero good?

Speaker 1 (15:46):
Though?

Speaker 2 (15:47):
Because of the targeting in the playoffs on defense and
like how valuable is this type of player? I would
say Hero is about as valuable as that player type
can be. You just have to admit that.

Speaker 1 (15:58):
He's clearly separated himself from like the Jordan Pools and
the Simon Barrett's like yeah, the Simons, yeah yeah, all.

Speaker 2 (16:05):
Those guys up for extensions around the same time. He definitely, man,
remember we used to just talk about those guys altogether.
There was somebody else in that group.

Speaker 1 (16:13):
We had so many exercises that like preceding season of
just like who would you rather have for the time?
Who gets more money in an extension?

Speaker 2 (16:21):
Well, and the answers him, right. I think, I think
he's better than Pool, He's better than Simon's, he's better
than Barrett so. But then it's like, if he's your
second best player, we saw where you top out at
and I think Bam we learned too. He had a
bad year just by his standards, but like, I think
we did get some confirmation that like, if Bam is
your best player, you are sometimes going to be a

(16:42):
thirty seven and forty five team. Maybe you're gonna be
a you know, a forty five and thirty seven team,
but you can't really get much above that. So this
feels like a low tier given given the teams that
are just beneath it. But I'm just not seeing. Maybe
make the case if you want, like what's the reason
for Miami being significantly better than last year and not

(17:02):
being in this tier?

Speaker 1 (17:05):
I don't know. I mean, maybe kohalil Ware pops, maybe
Jim Hawkins Junior has sort of like a rethrow like
throw back to his rookie season, which is like an
incredibly weird thing to say about anyone who's entering their
their third year. Jovich could be better their their offense
is the thing I graple with because I liked the
normal Powell trade for them, and he gives you some

(17:26):
of the well he should give you something. He's getting older,
he'll give you some of the rim pressure you lost
in Jimmy Butler. They still just don't have that primary
on ball guy. And like Tyler Hero, I think his
improvement as a playmaker and making on ball decisions is big,
but like he's a as dangerous when he's the second
guy that you need to create things and where he
can fly around away from the ball, and like, I

(17:47):
think we've kind of seen that Bam can do some
of that stuff, but the offensive numbers are just there
in the past like three or four years, when Jimmy
Butler isn't on the floor, Miami's offense with Hero bam
Adebayo has been underwhelmingly average. Yeah, and that it's like
their peak, So I don't I think people can point
to the heat and say like they're just they need
that central star, and I think that's fair at say,

(18:10):
but how do you get there without like do they
have the like, who's the mid season name aside from Yiannis,
who it seems like everybody is waiting for. I don't
even know if if that type of player becomes available,
are It feels like they would need to be more
in the territory of, oh, we're willing to pay zach
Lavine's contract too. I don't know if he's the answer
rather than oh, they had the best offer for Giannis,

(18:32):
Like they don't have even if you put a hero
on the table, they don't have that level of assets.
And so I kind of understand, like Sean in the
chat is saying, Miami needs a reset, no chance otherwise
I don't disc I'm not there yet, like because there's
just they have some flexibility moving forward. I was surprised
they gave Davion Mitchell two guaranteed years, but like, yeah,

(18:54):
you could make that case pretty strong and say like no,
it's trade hero, trade bam, and it's it's time to
start over.

Speaker 2 (18:59):
I think all we know for sure is that when
you have a player playing at the level that Jimmy
Butler did, for a couple of postseason runs. Then then
Bam falls right into place where he ought to be,
and Hero has his value, and like even guys like
Duncan Robinson who's not there anymore but like he would
have major value. But all of that and the team's

(19:20):
really good and dangerous and nobody wants to play him,
but all that's predicated on you have a guy. I
can't say, like you have a Jimmy Butler. It's like
you have the version of Jimmy Butler that we had
to like really think hard about putting in like a
top five players that you'd want to build a title
contender around for like two full years, like he was
in that conversation. If he's not there, then the whole

(19:42):
thing is just everybody is jumped up to a role
that's like just slightly too big for what they can
handle like and be and be part of a really
good team. So yeah, I think, like, I guess I'm
not there on I'm not ready to just like let's
hit the red button type of thing. But it's like
you said it, I don't see the way towards getting

(20:02):
that next like peak Jimmy Butler type of guy, because
they won't have the best offer for the next version
of that that becomes available, and they like, they're too
good to get that guy in the draft, and they
don't wait long enough. You know who, They've had homegrown talent,
but it's just like what they have left of that
is not good enough without an imported like superstar above.

(20:22):
They need a better player than they have. Like that's
that's kind of the simple way.

Speaker 1 (20:26):
And what's interesting is that I think they could have
benefited from a gap year this coming season where it's
you don't you know, just put Hero and Bam on
a maintenance program and lose and then maximize your draft
pick and then it's either a better trade asset or
a better prospect to develop. I think the Norman Powell
trade again, I liked that trade for them, but I
think that kind of signals no, they're not going to
do that unless they think that they could reroute him

(20:48):
for more value than they gave up. Jerry in the chat,
and I want to clear up a misconception here that
this is not Jerry specific. I've seen two big misconceptions,
but he says I think Miami is fine. I think
next season is when they go for all to have
a alible cap space and will probably go for a
superstar level player. The two biggest misconceptions I've seen this
offseason is that the Nuggets have permanently escaped the Second Apron,
which they have not Like if you think, unless you

(21:10):
think that Christian Brown and Peyton Watson are gonna make
less than twenty five million dollars combined next year, the
Nuggets are gonna have Second Apron concerns. And the heat
their cap space is if Andrew Wiggins picks up his
player option, they're gonna have like twelve or thirteen million dollars.
So if they want cap space, you either need to
hope that Wiggans opts out, which I guess isn't like
is I don't know, thirty plus million, like that's it's

(21:33):
on the border, like if he could get more long
term money. But there will be more teams with cap space,
So I don't think they're guaranteed to have cap space,
is my point. But I do think Jerry's right that
this does seem like they're trying to set themselves up
to go for it next summer, whether it's a trade,
and I think, honestly, you know what the big signal
will be for me, Tyler heroes extension eligible, I think
October first. But if he signs an extension, he can't

(21:54):
be traded this season because of the six month rule.
So if he doesn't get an extension, because it's not
it's two years, three years, one hundred and fifties the
max about around there, he wouldn't have to get the max.
But like, if you don't look at extending him the
way that we know how key players get extended, now,
that would be one where're like, oh are they like,
because we've seen a lot of stars get move mid season,
like Fox and Luke, I mean Luca, Anthony Davis obviously

(22:16):
in the same trade and star level like Pascal siakam
og and Andobi. So if he doesn't get an extension,
that's another thing I'll be clocking in Miami.

Speaker 2 (22:26):
Yeah, that's a good thing to keep an eye on.
Let's do let's go to another team in this tier
here trying I guess we'll just go in reverse order again.
So this is where I have the pacers. Uh, are
you on the front of the pacers? No, they were
actually behind the heat. I'm the heat or the to
ja huffs guy. Well, you know, I am a Jay

(22:47):
huff guy, first of all, how dare you? I just,
you know, I don't know how much we need to
talk about this, Like you've lost two of your three
best players, one via trade, one via injury, and you
know that's just impossible to overcome. I think they'll still
play like an exciting brand of basketball that's fun to watch.
The offense should be interesting, like I just I don't

(23:09):
know what how you know, sort of diluted it might
be without Haliburt and without Turner spacing, but like they're
not gonna tank, I don't think. Although they did get
that pickback, right, so like that's on the table.

Speaker 1 (23:22):
Man, what a rough just series of events.

Speaker 2 (23:24):
For the Pelicans something like yeah, good, that might have
been a choice pick to have and it was it
was like what just the value was like cut by
eighty five percent in like a week or two after
they pulled that trade off. Yeah, I don't know, what
do you think about the Pacers?

Speaker 1 (23:40):
That was right? Jalen Green was the other one as
ro hit I rokeat apologies from mispronouncing. I think you're
probably right to ah, there's I don't know they're so deep,
but I'm just like Tyre's Haliburton felt like kind of
the piece that ties it all together to where Okay,
you can survive stretches without him, but an entire season
the thing that's iffy for me. So if you're looking

(24:01):
at the Heat or the Pacers, let's say like next
season starts off or they get to like December or whatever,
and they're not doing well, which your organization is more
likely to kind of throw in the towel.

Speaker 2 (24:10):
Well, probably my eight Well that's a good question. I mean,
probably Miami. Right, Like, just because we're talking about they
don't have the guy, the tear down is like a win,
not an if. So maybe they're the ones that just
pull the rip cord. But the Pacers, the Pacers could
capitalize though, and just be like, we're gonna look like

(24:30):
the fates destroyed us and then we cheaped out and
further destroyed ourselves. We might as well see what we
can get out of this pick.

Speaker 1 (24:36):
I don't know, I think it would be smart for
our of them to do so. But in Indy's entire ethos,
and I don't know if this is from Kevin Pritchard
or from Herb Simon's, it's just like we don't tank, right,
and so I think I think Miami's the right handser,
even though pat Riley doesn't rebuild, but like he feels
like someone who would stomach sort of like a tough, tighter,
temporary window, and the Pacers just feel like the goal

(24:58):
is to chug a law. But I mean, if we're
being honest, for both of those teams, the answer is
because look at where they are. If you want to
say they belong up a tier, okay, cool, like congratulations,
you're still on the bottom half of the Eastern Conference. Uh,
Like one of at least one of them, I think
is gonna end up going through a gap year, even
if they don't hit that button until it's late.

Speaker 2 (25:18):
Right, Yeah, it could be an unintentional gap year, which
is not the kind you want, like because that's just like, well,
we turns out we weren't so good. We didn't plan
for this.

Speaker 1 (25:26):
If Indy goes for it the entire year though, Like,
I just what is their ceiling? I know you have,
we have them in this tier, and I'd probably agree
you could quibble over whether they belong in front of
Miami or not. Yeah, sure, but I'm just looking at
like you really need if if I wanted to believe
that they were still like a forty five win team
or something without Tyree's Halbert, Like I'm trying to think
of what needs to happen, and I'm like, well, the

(25:47):
center position is murky now, like there's just all there's
It feels like there's gonna be too much James Wiseman,
Isaiah Jackson, Jay Huff for me to feel completely comfortable there.
But like, is it Benn mcmathrin pops because he's getting
all these additional sort of on ball. I just I
don't know.

Speaker 2 (26:02):
I mean, that's the thing, if you really want to
be optimistic, you can say, man, there's a lot of
room for Matherin, for Walker, for I don't know, even topping,
like got like nemhard to just explore the space right,
Like they're gonna by default they're gonna have just bigger roles,
and Matherins kind of stands out as a guy that
might really have a bigger role, especially offensively. So like

(26:25):
if those guys all get better, yeah, forty five, maybe,
I mean they only won fifty last year that the
playoff run, it's easy to forget was just like I
don't know, I kept picking against them every round, like just.

Speaker 1 (26:34):
Well, they were on a tear from like basically descent,
like when manager Nemhar came back, they were like the
fifth best team in the NBA or whatever.

Speaker 2 (26:41):
Isn't that another thing to consider as like I don't
know what the record was. Were they ten and fourteen
or something at one point and Haliburton wasn't looking good
and every the narrative was so easy of like yeah,
lightning in a bottle last postseason, this is actually the
real Haliburton, you know. That turned out to be wrong,
But that stretch did prove that, like if Halliburton's not great,

(27:02):
the Pacers aren't good, like so, I mean, he's not
gonna be there at all. So I don't know how
you recover from that, even if you do get like
steps forward from a bunch of guys.

Speaker 1 (27:12):
This is like, because I'm looking at the team that
I want to talk about next, this is like the
impossible tier to where I think that you could talk
me into like these teams bottoming out of skyrocking. So
I'm gonna talk about the Toronto Raptors, who I want
to see. If you agree, I would put them in
front of both of these teams, I mean, they steel
coming on.

Speaker 2 (27:30):
I'm not ready to veto. They're in this tier for me,
so I can't. It's hard for me to well, maybe
make your case, and I'm gonna see if there's any
particular parts that stand out as veto worthy.

Speaker 1 (27:40):
I think that we're over I think that we're overthinking
the whole. This is becoming very there's only one BALI
for me, and I just I don't think that there's
a limit to how many val like net positive on
BALLD decision makers you could have. And while this spacing
isn't great, having good on bold decision makers can counter that.
I also think two things are being underrated for them.

(28:02):
On offense, maybe actually three. This is probably the biggest question.
Emanuel Quoky has not been healthy since he got there.
He's one of just the best when you in terms
of off the dribble and off the ball three point shooting,
he blends that as good as anyone in the league.
Basically ie not Steph Curry t here obviously sure, Darko
Ryakovic very creative with his offense and the way that
they've used r J. Barrett since he got there. I

(28:24):
think they can figure out ways to maximize what will
be confined spacing. And then the other big thing is
Bred and Ingram did a better job last year with
his three point volume in New Orleans. I don't think that,
and we've seen him have better seasons like in terms
of volume from three point range. I don't think he's
gonna be shooting like five corner threes in game and

(28:45):
just camping out there or anything. But I really believe
that when you have like Toronto's level of decision makers,
when you look at specifically Scotty Barnes and Bred and Ingram,
that's a really good start. There's with Jaka pertl there. Yeah,
maybe you'd want more of a spacing center, but like
there's a lot of IQ and good screening there. And
then you do have Grady Dick, you do have Jamison

(29:06):
Battle like now the Colin Murray Boyles. Thing of it
all is, I just don't expect to necessarily to play
a huge role, at least not with the core lineup,
So you need to make sure there's enough shooting like
that's certainly a concern, But there's enough younger players that
I think you could say, like Scotty Barnes could still
get this feels like not make or break, but a
very tell tale year for Scotty Barnes, and I'm sort

(29:26):
of betting on they're gonna be the team that will
continue going for it, I guess longer than Miami or
Indiana where it feels like their floor can come out
from under them. So it might be a spicy pick,
but I think I'm in love with a lot of
the Raptors as individual players, and I think that we're
kind of over thinking, Well, they're definitely gonna be less

(29:48):
than the sum of their parts.

Speaker 2 (29:51):
I think that's all fair. And I think just as
you go through, here's what I run up against is
one we haven't seen their main guys together just because
Ingram didn't play quickly has been hurt. So that's that's
a that's sort of a sticking point for me. The
I think you have to acknowledge that, Like if you
just go down the starting five and say it's a

(30:12):
quickly Barrett Ingram, Barnes, Perdle, like those are five NBA starters,
Like you know, I don't know where you'd rank them,
but they're all like they're pretty good. And then like
we also we like Agbajie, We think Grady Dick's got something,
maybe Walter Pop's, like there's if Chris Bouche is back,
we have to move them up a tier. First of all,
they go.

Speaker 1 (30:30):
To Honestly, I was going to move them down to
F because that contract's not done yet.

Speaker 2 (30:34):
It was going on right, So, like, I definitely you
can't deny that there is like a fair amount of
like they got a lot of guys that, if we're
letter grading, like Quickly is like a B minus, you know,
and like Ingram's maybe a bee and Barnes is like
a B plus with So there's a lot of B
range guys. The sticking point for me or the other

(30:54):
sticking point is just like the fit and like how
does this actually work functionally on offense? Defense? Like okay,
I think they should be fairly solid, but like I
just it feels like the kind of logic you'd use
when you're putting together like a dream team, and it's
like you can't just put a bunch of guys that
are good. You have to like actually think about who

(31:15):
fits or at least I mean that doesn't always happen,
but you know what I mean, it's like an all
star team versus an Olympic team. I want to see it.
I do think it's fair though, because we like just
on a talent basis, Like I don't think Miami or
Indy has like as many like Oh, that guy's a
very good starter type players, as as maybe Toronto does.

(31:37):
I'm just hung up on I'm not using a veto
is the short short answer here, but I got some
hang ups.

Speaker 1 (31:43):
Well, I'm dying at this comment. I'm willing to put
my life savings on the Raptors being better than both
the Heat and Pacers next year, as long as they're
relatively healthy. I'm not willing to do that. And because
I'm not wondering if I'm miscalculating the whole Messaju Jerry leaving,
does that make the office more likely to not that
they would start over, but like, are we gonna see

(32:04):
RJ and Ingram get? I mean, they love yacht, they're obsessed.
They don't love they're obsessed with yaka Pernos. So he's
not going anywhere and if and if he does, they'll
probably just reacquire him in about a year. So I
guess I wonder if I'm underweighting that, which makes me
But I also don't trust the Heat or the Pacers enough,
especially when Miami is so like, we know the Pacers

(32:24):
won't have their best player all year and then Miami
is just everything there just feels like a placeholder may
be except for mam So I could probably be talked
into like would you put the Raptors at the bottom
of that, Like we're we're not done with this tier yet,
but would you put them at the bottom of this tier?

Speaker 2 (32:40):
You know, there's the team the next team we'll talk
about I think is pretty firmly at the bottom for me,
just just because the ceiling isn't what any of these
other frankly, any of these three teams have. But actually,
you know, you've kind of talked me into it. I
do think like, would I think maybe the floor for
too could Is it fair to say that Toronto's floor

(33:00):
might be higher than you know, because we talked about
like both the Pacers and Heat are fairly good candidates
to just like, oh, we're gonna steer into the skid
if things go sideways like Toronto. I think, like, what's
what win total barring injuries like up and down the roster,
would you say like they're gonna win at least X,
like Toronto's not gonna be a twenty two win team,

(33:22):
Like that's there's no way, Like, if everybody's healthy, it's
in the high thirties.

Speaker 1 (33:26):
Right, I was gonna say, thirty seven feels like their
floor if everybody's healthy. I think that's with the heat,
I could see there as being lower and the Pacers
it's just the not having Tyre's almburtn of it all.
I just for the I don't know what to make
of that. But I also I'm starting to talk myself out.
I'm gonna leave it there because I do believe. But
they're one of the teams. It's them, the Pelicans and
the Hornets that I'm always just higher on than consensus apparently,

(33:49):
so I can. I'm wondering if I'm doing it again,
like because oh, we could see the heat and the
Pacers throwing it in, but the Raptors won't. Why wouldn't
the Raptors do that?

Speaker 2 (33:57):
Because the Raptors have like fifty guys on long term contray.
It's just like, what is throwing it in look like?
And they're not all positive value necessarily. I think we
would agree that. Like the team construction, I like the
team construction a little bit less than just in terms
of like the money and the years that they've given
some of these guys. Uh. That concerns me more than
like how good is this team gonna be this year?

(34:19):
You know, like long term. I don't love like other
than Barnes, Like where's where's the foundation here? I think
that's fine there and then we we should definitely well, hey,
we'll see Manifesting.

Speaker 1 (34:31):
The podcast Eurostep podcast Network Manifesting Bucks up to the
B tier. Let's see how I let's see how that goes.
We're coming up.

Speaker 2 (34:38):
Well, there's only one there's one more team in this
tier and it does start with a bee, but it
is the bulls uh and same yeah bottom, same story
as always, like just unambitious that did we have? We
talked about the new deals for carn Karnisovus or Carnishevus.
I'd never pronounced it right, And Billy Donovan as just

(34:59):
like ownership saying like surveying the last few years and
be like, fellas, just keep it up. This is exactly
like great job. No notes?

Speaker 1 (35:10):
Uh did you was your read on it? The Billy
Donovan one, I'm just sort of like I don't know
that he's done anything wrong there and who is Like
you might say, if they were rebuilding, go hire a
first timer. But I had more of a problem with
the Ak extension because if you're not gonna announce it,
look what happened with I know it took a while
for it to come out, but like there was pomp
and circumstance for Kobe Autman getting a deal with the Chuntaler.

(35:32):
So they're clearly embarrassed or at least aware of what
the sentiments are gonna be from the fan base and analysts,
and so it's you hit it like it's just if
you're doing that, maybe it's time to take a step back,
reflect internalize some of the stuff that's happening. But this
organization is never gonna because I thought about, like, well,
why aren't they just in the F tier because it's

(35:54):
you know why they're not the F tier because they're
not gonna trade Kobe Watright, they're not gonna trade boots
because they're not that kind of fucking team. They don't
think that.

Speaker 2 (36:01):
Way, right they are, They're they have the narrowest band
of outcomes I think of any team we're gonna talk
about unless it's like we get all the way to
the top and it's like, well, the Calves will win
between fifty seven and sixty three games or something like.
That's pretty narrow. But like the Bulls are gonna be
in the high thirties to low forties and I just

(36:21):
see no way that that they I mean injury, sure,
the low end whatever, but like the ceiling of the
ceiling is just forty four, like, which is just where
it's always been and we hate it. And I just
don't understand how as an ownership group you'd say, like
this again, more of this, this is what we want,
Like we want a play in loss and everybody to

(36:43):
just like be mad because we've picked twelfth again. It
just I wants this.

Speaker 1 (36:47):
I almost want This is one of those situations where
I would welcome being wrong because if they traded Kobe
White and Vucevic, like, they're probably the worst team in
the East at that point. I know they would still
have Josh Giddy assuming here is, but they're probably the
worst eat Like, it's not Brooklyn, it's not Washing It
that's Charlote. Would think it would be Chicago, No, there is.

Speaker 2 (37:04):
Yeah, they would definitely be in the bottom tier, I
don't think there'd be any argument for them to be
where they are now.

Speaker 1 (37:10):
I was gonna ask you the Josh Giddy situation though,
do you think that's because they just gave Patrick Williams
five years ninety million a player off that deal was
not out there for like even a four year deal
like that at that level was not out there for him.
Do you think that could be a signal along with okay,
they did finally move on from Zach Lavine, could that
be a signal that maybe they are thinking being more

(37:33):
forward thinking to where Oh they looked at the market,
they where's Josh Getty getting money from? We're gonna squeez him?
Or you just sort of we need to see the
number before we go talking about the posts having forethought.

Speaker 2 (37:42):
Yeah, well that probably should be the reaction. I think, like,
I don't know, it's like a fool me once thing,
Like they have to be aware of the heat that
the Patrick Williams contract, you know, sent towards them. I mean, yeah,
I think I need to see the number still, because
if if we wait all this time in Giddy gets
thirty a year, which seems like impossible, but if that's

(38:03):
what happens, then yeah, we'll have to all reserve judgment
until then.

Speaker 1 (38:09):
Eurostep Ak extension might be the worst transaction of the summer.
Maybe just didn't. Wasn't the extension like two years ago
or something now that we found out like after the fact, Grant,
this one's for you from row It. How about a
double sign and trade? Giddy for Kamingo who says no,
I feel like this is a personal attack.

Speaker 2 (38:29):
I say no. I say that it's not worth it.
I think because the Warriors have to. I'm pretty sure
if the Warriors don't do some other stuff and they
do execute a sign and trade, they're gonna get hard
capped and not be able to take on Al Horford
into the Mini mid level I think, or something weird
like that happens. So I've pivoted a little bit on

(38:50):
my COMINGU sign and trade desires.

Speaker 1 (38:52):
I'm gonna tell you why the Warriors say no, because
it would involve doing anything whatsoever, and they're currently just
not going to do that.

Speaker 2 (39:00):
They're just sitting there waiting and just like waiting for
Cominga's reps to call like once a week and they
ask like, so you get an offer shit yet, and
they're like no, they're like cool. Well, check back in
later see what happens.

Speaker 1 (39:11):
Spicy question from Okay, okay, Kendrick Perkins or Drake Powell.

Speaker 2 (39:17):
Well, I don't know a lot about Drake Powell. I'm
gonna go Drake Powell.

Speaker 1 (39:22):
I hope people at least get that bit. Do you
want to take us? What tier? Are we out? We're
done with?

Speaker 2 (39:26):
We we're out of the D tier. We've moved on.
It only gets trickier to me. I feel like, all right,
I'm gonna start. Oh, I think we'll disagree on this,
although I'm not again, I'm not anchored to the order
within the tears, but I would like to discuss the
Detroit Pistons. Please, they're in this.

Speaker 1 (39:42):
Tier, Okay, I need to, Like, I don't know what
I want to use my veto on. You haven't used
yours yet either. This is the the tension is mounting everybody, Well.

Speaker 2 (39:50):
Do we have to use our veto? Like? Can't we
just get along? Oh?

Speaker 1 (39:53):
I'm using my veto, even if it's just to spite you.

Speaker 2 (39:55):
I'm okay, great, I do like the spikee veto. Okay, Dan,
are the Pistons any better this year than last year?
If you if you exclude the organic growth and just
really it's a question about you swap more or less,
Simoni Fontechio for Duncan Robinson, Jade and Ivy is healthy? Uh?
And what they did some Oh, Paul Reid is back

(40:17):
and Karris Lavert who if Jade and Ivy is healthy, Like,
I'm not sure how much utility Karroslvert has he has
some is this a better team? And if so, like
to what degree? And again they blew expectations away last
year obviously, so so you keep that in mind.

Speaker 1 (40:32):
I actually think and this is easier to say after
the season. Fontechio just had I think Duncan Robinson's like
a noticeable upgrade from that spot. He's showing the ability
to do some stuff inside the arc. I think the
movement shooting is a lot better. And just as like
when you knew that Malik Beasley wasn't coming back or
he's dealing with those like off the court issues, I think,
like you kind of there's a chance that you come

(40:54):
out as a net even while losing what was one
of the what three most valuable floor spacers in the
leaguet year or whatever. So that's a big deal. To me,
the question of if they're better, it comes down to
internal improvement. For me, I'm probably a little bit higher
on the Karroslvert acquisition than you. I think he's shown
more as an off ball guy and even defender. And
I think the way that jab Bickerstaff just is able

(41:15):
to coax defense out of guys it went like we
saw it with Carselvert in Cleveland actually under him. That
would give me hope. So I think, yeah, I don't
think that they're like a lot better if they if
they're gonna get a lot better, it's because Kay Cunningham
got better, Asar Thompson, Ron Hollins had some like like
at least opening Summer League had some nasty moments. So

(41:35):
I think you could say that they will get better.
But they didn't do anything I guess that would justify saying, hey,
they're gonna be like a forty nine win team or
something next year. But that's also in some ways, isn't
that encouraging, Like they didn't do anything that was we
that would suggest they read too much into what happened last.

Speaker 2 (41:51):
Well, that's a great point, and they didn't. I mean
Beasley sort of not being bring back a ble it
made this a little easier, but like they didn't been
over backwards, like we have to make sure Shrewder comes
back well, like what how do we pull that off?
Like they didn't freak out about hardaway Junior. They're just like, yeah,
you know, we we have between Ivy coming back and
getting LeVert, like there's enough secondary ball handling, like we're

(42:13):
gonna be fine. So I do think that's a fair
point that, like you see teams in this position swing
a little bigger, because especially teams that had been in
the wilderness like Detroit had for so long, and then
they get this like very strong playoff showing like relative
to expectations and Cave Cunningham kind of like like all
boxes checked as far as like reasonable and slightly above

(42:34):
reasonable expectations and then they swing big. So I do
think it's somewhat encouraging that they didn't do that. I
just yeah, I think I think to answer my own question,
if the Pistons are better, and based on how I
have it, what if they were the sixth seed last year,
I think I have them ranked fifth in the East
right now. If we're actually ranking I think, like I

(42:56):
think they are going to be a little better, but
it's just because of the young guys they have will improve,
it's not so doesn't that allow less to do with
Lavert and that kind of thing?

Speaker 1 (43:04):
The what do you view as the because it's not
like Cade will get better. But he's not like a
swing piece like you made the all MBA, he's who
is the swing? Is it a Sar? Is it Ron
holld Is it Jay? And Ivy? Like who is it?
Because it's probably not Jollen Duran? Like who is the
swing swing piece for them this year?

Speaker 2 (43:20):
Who's I mean? I think it because I to say
it's a SAR would be to say, like, well he's
gonna become a good three point shooter or something like,
And I just don't see that happening this year. I
think he's just gonna be great at what he's great
at and we'll for a while, but just be limited otherwise.
Is it crazy to say Ivy because like he before
he got hurt, he only played thirty games I think

(43:42):
it was, but made forty percent of his threes. We're
sort of we talked about him a fair amount, like
he's not the ideal cunning Ham compliment, but like it's
getting closer just because the shot was falling, and like
you can use him to run second, you know, all
that stuff we've talked about with him forever. If he's
that are slightly better, like maybe it's him, because I don't,

(44:03):
I don't know, I don't. I don't look at anybody
else really and say, like, you know, Ron Holland becomes
like a thirty minute game guy, Like that's not happening
yet either. I don't think the next team, so I
would put them below the Pistons.

Speaker 1 (44:15):
In the Celtics. There's a chance that they could still
be really good, but like the big man rotation is
meh at the moment. It seems like they might be
opening to making more trades that would slash their payroll,
and so it feels like Anthony Simons won't finish the
season in Boston, especially asn't expiring, and especially if they
seem like the team. Now, if I'm Dame, what I

(44:36):
would do is I would wait, because your bird rights
will still if you sign in like Jet like in
March versus signing now, your bird rights you'll still get
the early bird rights stuff by being on a team
for two years. So I'm gonna wait and survey the
league if there's a chance he's coming back, and maybe
the Celtics aren't gonna play late in the season. I
think they're gonna get Dame though, and then so like
that kind of diminishes the long term value of having Simons,

(44:57):
and so I think they're gonna make more move and
then shut because this is an organization that does operate
with forethought, especially with Brad Stevens installed there. I think
that they're going to have a true gap year. It's
not gonna be on the level of trying to be
as bad as the Nets or the Jazz, but they're
gonna see the opportunity because they have their own first
round pick this year, They're gonna see the value in

(45:18):
doing that. And so I think that we're gonna see
if they're not traded. Jayleen Brown, Derek White, like, those
guys are going to get shut down at some point,
and so even putting them in see I thought about
putting them in the DTRE, but that's just they have.
If those guys are gonna play at all, like they're
still just kind of too good to be there, I.

Speaker 2 (45:34):
Think, yeah, I think you could make I was trying
to sort of figure out where I thought the Celtics
raided just to say relative to the Pistons, for example,
or even Toronto just on like a talent basis right,
because you're subtracting Tatum, you're subtracting Holiday, you're subtracting Horford,
you're subtracting porzingis like, that's a lot going out the door.
I still think between like Brown and White and Prichard

(45:56):
and Simon's for as long as he's there, Like the
big man rotation is really bad. Somebody Yeah, Rohit was
pointing out like it might be the worst big man
rotation in the league. Like not an exaggeration based on
what's there right now. I still I actually think like
even if you believe, okay, it's about equal with a
team like the Pistons, which I think is a that's

(46:18):
a debate that what you said about, Like, I mean,
what is Boston playing for And the answer is like,
not a lot this year. The odds of them kind
of turning the tank on are just higher than they
would be for most of the teams we've mentioned so far.
So I think you I think it's fair to put
them below the Pistons.

Speaker 1 (46:38):
I also think like given just the level of stuff
Jalen Brown's dealt with, especially in his lower body, Like,
take the opportunity I go through on the a partial season, right.

Speaker 2 (46:50):
Yeah, right, I mean he's had He's had plenty of
long postseasons for sure. Yeah, and that's another factor. Okay,
we got to add a team to this tier, do we?
I want to save this team to talk about last?
Let's go, let's throw the bucks up? How about that?

Speaker 1 (47:05):
There? Are you better? So I'm letting you know that
I'm using a veto on one of these two teams
that are talking because I'm curious as to why you
have the bucks I'm assuming at the top of the
ctier relative to the teams we've already talked about.

Speaker 2 (47:16):
I actually have them a third in this tier.

Speaker 1 (47:19):
If if, oh, you're gonna have so, can I Actually
my question to you before you start, how do you
have them that low unless you're under the assumption that
Yannis isn't finishing the season there.

Speaker 2 (47:33):
I think that Jannis and Turner is a great front
court combo. And I don't like almost anything else about
the team. Like, I mean, it's great that they got
back some of the guys they got back, but Kuzma
is not a winning player to me. I don't know,
like make the case, like who do you like so
much beyond those two that you would have I assume

(47:56):
you how the Bucks in a tier higher.

Speaker 1 (47:58):
I thought about bumping them up tier higher. I don't
want to use my I'd rather use my veto on
the next team, who I'm a lot higher on than you.
But I didn't realize that they were gonna at the
bottom of this tier. Look, my whole thing is the
stuff with Giannis's playmaking last year was kind of terrifying,
like for other teams, and that might have been like
the biggest selling point of him coming back is, Look,

(48:21):
we're still gonna have flour spacing bigs around you, and
now you're gonna be on the ball more. I think
that will be There'll be limitations then on maybe their
crunch time offense in the half court. Sure you can
talk about like do they have enough other shooting around him?
I love Ryan Rollins, getting Gary Trent Junior, Gary Harrison,
Torrian Prince, two of those guys where there last year back,
I think it's a really big deal. I really like

(48:42):
aj Green, like I think there's more shooting here than
people are crediting and just given the way like we
saw some Rowins, Giannis Turner. Even if you think Jannis
and Turner have taken steps back defensively, that's like a
pretty good defensive group. And then you have like aj
Green's not terrible there, Torrian Prince was solid, Gary Trent,
you will disrupt. They are very predicated on remaining healthy.

(49:03):
I do not trust Kyleku's even a little bit. So
I'm with you on is he a winning player? I
just man, I can't put them behind Boston. I'm hoping
we could come to a compromise that doesn't require a veto. Here.

Speaker 2 (49:15):
I don't have them behind Boston. I have Boston last
in this tier. Okay, just full disclosure. No, I I
take your point. I think like the simplified version is
like Jannie is still pretty much in his prime and
they're maybe like without Dame there, he just has his
best offensive season ever, Like that's possible. I think the

(49:36):
likelier outcome is like all these young, mostly unproven guards
are not any good.

Speaker 1 (49:41):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (49:41):
The Bucks get too easy to stop because it's just
Yannis and spacing, which is like a good recipe, and
that's kind of what you have to do with him.
But I don't know. It feels maybe maybe what I'm
like doing here is is sort of like letting postseason
concerns like trickle in, because if Janice is healthy and
the shoot really does play, this should be a pretty

(50:02):
good regular season team. But I they won forty eight
last year. It feels about right, uh to me. And
then and then you're pricing in like if Turner gets hurt,
what happens if Jannis gets hurt? This is one of
the worst teams in the league, like full stop. So yeah, PDP.

Speaker 1 (50:17):
Asks how bad is the Bucks roster if Jannis leaves?

Speaker 2 (50:20):
It's awful.

Speaker 1 (50:21):
The limit does not exist?

Speaker 2 (50:24):
Yea, yeah, yeah, but but you know there's also oh yeah,
Cole Anthony, I didn't mention him, thank you. That's that's
a Is that official yet? I don't know if it is.

Speaker 1 (50:33):
Yeah, you only get back two million Bucks, like Memphis is.
Offseason is just all sorts of icky. Yeah, we needed
to get rid of Jay Huff so we could bring
in Jocolin. I'm just it's weird comfortable with it. I'm
gonna spoil alert. I will be smashing there under.

Speaker 2 (50:48):
That means they're going over hard over everybody.

Speaker 1 (50:50):
So I'm gonna so you the Bucks behind the Pistons.
I can It's weird because I could see the Bucks
having a much higher ceiling, but when you're trying to
cake in the floor of it all, even with it,
I'm assuming Yan it's just Stays finishes the season in Milwaukee.

Speaker 2 (51:03):
I think so too. I also think like this is
gonna be his age thirty one season. He's an athleticism
based player, like it ends at so it slows down
at some point. I think maybe I'm pricing that in too.
There's one more team in this tier for me. They're
not gonna be in this tier. I'm gonna tell you, okay,
you're gonna be where do you have them?

Speaker 1 (51:19):
The Atlanta Hawks? Where do you have them? In this tier?

Speaker 2 (51:21):
They are first in this tier for me?

Speaker 1 (51:24):
Okay, So I am putting them in the A tier
and using my veto they've been bumped up, so we
can say you bump up two tiers. Well, I didn't
bump them. I had them in the age you had
you're being forced to bump them up, So do you
want to talk about them when we get to the
A tier. Then we can move on to the next tear.

Speaker 2 (51:41):
Yeah, I guess we better.

Speaker 1 (51:42):
Sure, do you want to start us off with the
B tier?

Speaker 2 (51:45):
Okay, so let's see. I have one team in this tier,
and uh, it is the Philadelphia seventy six ers. And
it is because this is where I landed after a
lot of wrestling with upside and outside and floor and
ceiling and injury risks. And actually I put them here
before the Paul George report about an arthroscopic knee surgery dropped.

(52:07):
Uh what was it yesterday? I don't know how much
that changes anything. It's just like further evidence of why
they're hard to rank. I just think they belong in
their own tier. There's not gonna be anybody else here
with them. And I don't know how you acknowledge, like

(52:29):
just Paul George and yeah, they can be in their
own for sure. Uh, question Mark, Like I don't know
like if mbat, Like I don't think EMBIID is gonna
play a lot of games this year? Dan does that
feel like a controversial thing to say? I think he's
gonna miss because what if he does? Because what if
he does, then they're gonna be really good. Same with

(52:50):
Paul George, Like they still have Maxie and we like
McCain and Grimes will be back, Like there's real players
on this team. I just I don't know what to
do with them.

Speaker 1 (53:00):
Everybody for the Jets, you're seventy six or above Bucks
with the medical staff make Trey Vj's brain with.

Speaker 2 (53:07):
Who needs it? You only have two thumbs? You don't
need both? Like what's the deal?

Speaker 1 (53:12):
Oh? Those are two all time comments?

Speaker 2 (53:13):
What do you think about the Sixers? Like?

Speaker 1 (53:15):
What should we? Just? Can I frame a question? I was, actually, yeah,
are they even making it? Look? If they had signed
Quentin Grimes, i'd put them in the stier, but he's
still on signs. I don't know what to do with.
But my question to you was actually gonna compare them
to the Bucks, because I would have had the Bucks
in this tier, and I used my veto for them.
Who has if y we're assuming Yanna stays Milwaukee, who

(53:38):
has the lower floor Milwaukee or Philadelphia?

Speaker 2 (53:41):
Obviously Philadelphia?

Speaker 1 (53:44):
Then I don't It's just I would I would be
flip flopping Milwaukee in Philly if it was me, just
because the embid stuff is It's not like, well, what
if he is healthy, It's kind it's like we're at
the zion point of like, no, you just pencil him
in for missing thirty games.

Speaker 2 (53:58):
Yeah, that's fair, I think. And if it were just him,
I don't know. This cuts both ways because it's like,
well it's him and it's Paul George, like they what
if they're both healthy, which again, it's like you can't
just it's not a coin flip situation anymore where it's
like maybe yes, maybe no, it's a fifty to fifty.
It's like, I don't know, seventy five percent chance that
Embiat and George both miss a ton of times, so

(54:20):
maybe that maybe that is that is what we should
be focused on here. I'm not gonna veto myself just
because I do think the Sixers have to be in
their own tier, just because there's like I don't know
what to do with them which team?

Speaker 1 (54:32):
So then you could say, okay, if you think Milwaukee
has the higher floor, like which team do you think
is more likely to actualize its best case outcome? This
it's funny we're getting questions in the chat of how
Philly is above Milwaukee. We're attempting to answer that right now.

Speaker 2 (54:46):
Everybody had problem and that's not easy. I think like, Okay,
so wait for say that one more time, because I
do think that's.

Speaker 1 (54:53):
What we established, and I would agree that Philly has
the lower floor. And this is again assuming Giannis does
not get trade. What which team if you're factoring in
their best case outcomes? I think you could agree that
Philly has a better best case outcome. Right, you're looking
at the talent, which team is more likely to actualize
its best like which team's outcome best case is more reachable?

Speaker 2 (55:18):
I mean, so obviously implicit in the question is we
have to acknowledge that the Sixers likelihood of hitting their
best case outcome is low, like very low, because of
Embiid's health record and George's is And then the argument
you're making is that the Bucks likelihood of hitting their
best case outcome is higher, right, which I think I

(55:40):
agree with. But maybe where I'm maybe where i'd land
is even if the Sixers odds of hitting like a
one hundred percentile outcome are lower than the Bucks, the
Sixers one hundred percent outcome is way higher than the
Bucks like best possible outcome. It's just like maybe it's

(56:00):
a five percent chance they hit that. I mean, it's
probably lower than that, and the Bucks are ten or
twelve or so whatever. Like I think that's how I
like make it make sense in my brain, But it's
still just is ignoring the fact that, like the Sixers
are highly unlikely to maximize this roster, but if they do,
then they're as good as like literally anybody. But they

(56:23):
just aren't gonna do that. So I don't know that
that's kind of why I just have to have them
in my own tier because I.

Speaker 1 (56:27):
Don't I think you're saying a one percent chance at
being the NBA champion is better than like a fifty
percent chance of being the third best team in the
East that doesn't.

Speaker 2 (56:36):
Which is exactly how Darryl Morey thinks of building a
team too. So I accidentally kind of got a group
think disease with it.

Speaker 1 (56:44):
I have a question that I don't really know. If
it's not it doesn't impact tiers at all, what's more
likely Juell Embiid plays in fifty or more games or
Giannis gets traded before the end of next season.

Speaker 2 (56:55):
Uh, Jannis gets traded? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (56:58):
Really, still the tier higher?

Speaker 2 (56:59):
That's yeah, I know. I mean I think even if
you even if em beat is like pretty healthy they're
just gonna rest him for twenty five, right.

Speaker 1 (57:06):
I am sort of wondering how because I like the VJ.
Edgecombe pick for them, but I'm curious as to what
type of role he plays and what does it mean
because when you look at just like unless you think
Paul George can still do it, like who is just
defending like the true wings on this roster and if
you're leaning on a rookie, like it feels like the Bucks,
even though they might have the lower ceiling, they have
fewer unknown commodities and I know, like Okay, Kevin Porter

(57:29):
Junior Ryan Rollins aren't the most known like NBA players,
but like we have more of a track record of Okay, VJ.
Edge Comme's gonna need to go out there and defend
every other team's best wing player unless you did that?
Can Quentin Grimes do that? Like it's just and then
the backup big situation is just because if it beats
out like I like a Dan Bona, but like the
Andre Drummond experience is just how is this team gonna rebound?

(57:52):
I just think so if they're yeah, Okay, put Andrey
Drummond on the floor, and then I'm gona ask, well,
how are they gonna defend and score? So I have
more questions about the Sixers, which is weird because everyone,
of course the Bucks is doom and gloom, and I
think long term they have more like they just have
that huge Damian Lillard dead money cap it now, So
there's more challenges even with Embiid and George on Phillies' books,
although maybe they end up getting wave and stretched. But

(58:14):
I see your case because there's still that pot Like
the Bucks don't have the like what if Middleton and
Damon Giannis all remain healthy next Like, they don't have
that prospect anymore that the Sixers in theory still doing.
We haven't talked a lot like jere McCain if he's
healthy getting better, What if Quentin Grimes gets better? What
if Tyres Max is young enough to continue getting better?
So they have that going for them as well.

Speaker 2 (58:36):
Yeah, no, I think, well, you know, we need to
get to this next team because okay, so yeah we
have my Sixers are in one tier, so we skip
up to the A tier where we've already had the
Hawks via veto again, not mad at it, I get it.
I'll wait for you to make the case I have
the magic in that Hawks tier that that's.

Speaker 1 (58:57):
Initially of the Hawks, that is shocking dull.

Speaker 2 (59:00):
I guess I have to since I have them a
whole tier higher. Initially I had the magic here in
their own tier as well, because I just like one
team tiers. I mean, the magic is a pretty simple case, right,
like one forty one last year. I want to make sure.
I think I've said that several times, but I want
to make sure that's right. Yeah, great defense, terrible offense
added Desmond Bane should get better health from ban Caro

(59:23):
and Franz. Like Jess Suggs, it's a fifty Yeah, I
always forget Sugs. This is a fifty win team, like
unless something goes very sideways and maybe there's some upside
from there. I just like they're They're a very comfortable,
like just sub elite team for me.

Speaker 1 (59:41):
Yeah, they're They're in the right spot. I think if
I was didn't already use my veto, I might even
nudge them up to S tier because I think the
addition of Ties Jones is going to do wonders for
their offense as well. And Palo bank Cao it's not
just about him getting better but it's oh Palo Bank
Cao with floor spacing now around a little bit more
four spacing, I think they probably still have unless Franz

(01:00:02):
Vagner is gonna remember how to make three pointers. I
think that they probably still have some spacing questions with
this team. But there's the defense was incredible last year.
You're not gonna get maybe there during Tias Jones Tias
Jones minutes, excuse me, maybe you get a little worse
than But like desmon Bank is not gonna hurt your defense,
like at all, No, no, no, no, Like they're and

(01:00:23):
all the value they lost to injury last year is
like they're their top three players all missed a significant
portion of the season and even if you say one
of them that happens again, I think short of it
being bang Caro, they'll just be built to weather it.
So they're in the right spot. And I would say
that you need to make the case for them, We
would need to make the case for them to be
higher before it's oh could like what does it take

(01:00:44):
for them to even drop down to a Sixers Pistons
Bucks level?

Speaker 2 (01:00:48):
Right, Yeah, I mean it just injuries, Like I think
I think that's the only way that so they were
second in defense and twenty sixth on offense last year,
Like they're a top five defense. I don't know they'll
be two, just because like Houston and there's plenty that's
the difference between fifth and second is not that big
a deal. They'll be a top five defense unless something
crazy happens and then, like you know, they're twenty sixth

(01:01:10):
in offense last year, if you're seventeenth, like that's like
what a massive leap that is, and that's such a
low bar, Like I really do think at some point,
since there's like at least decent spacing now and if
Polo's as good as we both think he is, like
you need to be a top half of the league
offense probably, which is total Like they're not gonna be
fifth or tenth or whatever, but like they should be

(01:01:33):
significantly better on offense and the defense is not going anywhere.
So that's an easy fifty wins.

Speaker 1 (01:01:39):
Ro hit the Palo is better than Tatum narrative gonna
hit like crack in November. I hadn't considered that, but
I do think when players are injured or we haven't
seen them for a while, we kind of forget, and
so I could honestly see like that'll be a talking
I could see that becoming a talking point at some
stage of the season.

Speaker 2 (01:01:54):
You not comfortable with Jason Tatum just catching comparative strays
while he's hurt, Well.

Speaker 1 (01:01:59):
I don't. I wouldn't, but I could see that happening
because we just have a way of forgetting about players
and we haven't seen, like look at what the NBA
discourse turns into like by August right when you haven't
seen like the veterans play. What do you think that
Orlando will have? It has not had a league averager
better offense since Dwight Howard was on the team. Do

(01:02:20):
you think that the trend gets bucked this year?

Speaker 2 (01:02:24):
That's a big jump. I wish I should look up
like what the biggest year over year offensive jumps are.
So they got to be top half of the league
in offense.

Speaker 1 (01:02:33):
Which sounds like such a low bar to clear for
this franchise.

Speaker 2 (01:02:38):
It's not so he actually, this is one of the
reasons I didn't have the magic up in the tier
with the next two teams. It's top two is I
think Jamal Moseley like this is gonna be the referendum
on Jamal Mosley as a coach, I think, like, is
he gonna be the guy because got the defense going.
That's great, that's like one of the hardest things to do.

(01:02:59):
But I don't know how, Like there's the lack of
spacing excuses kind of mitigated slash may be removed now,
and so like what what is he as an offensive coach?
Like what kind of stuff is he going to put in?
So I'm I'm hemming and hauling because like, I think
the talent is there for them to be a better
than average offense, So, you know, tenth to fifteenth or whatever.

(01:03:21):
I just don't know yet if Moseley and his staff
are good enough offensively to like get out of the
talent what could be gotten out of it. So I'll
probably I'll say they will not, but they'll be right
in that range because twenty sixth to like fourteenth or
fifteenth would be in like a massive jump. So I'll
say they'll be like sixteen seventeen something like that.

Speaker 1 (01:03:43):
I'm gonna say they finish in the top fourteen. I
think they get there. I'm Matt high on Ben Carrow,
and I think the Desmond Main acquisitions is going to
be massive for them.

Speaker 2 (01:03:52):
Franz is going to make a shot at some point too,
so that'll help.

Speaker 1 (01:03:55):
And like the other thing too, is like could if
they run a little bit more with Desmond Baine or
just having a better decision maker and Tyas Jones. Their
defense is so good it will allow them the opportunity
to go up against more scrambled defenses at the other end,
which could inflate. Like that's how like the Houston or
the Memphis m type deal.

Speaker 2 (01:04:12):
But that's that low hanging fruit's been there forever and
they just haven't picked it. And so that's one other
reason that Mosley like gives me some pause as like
he is he like, I don't know, he's not Kenny Atkinson.
We'll leave it. Leave it there.

Speaker 1 (01:04:24):
Yeah, it was even Jordi Fernandez. But it comes to
if you are all right, make your case for the
Hawks and the eighthier go yeah uh.

Speaker 2 (01:04:32):
You know, I look, the Sixers being in their own
tier screwed this up. I think Orlando's better, but I
can see the argument for Atlanta belonging here. I just
thought they it felt more at home to me with
the Detroit, Milwaukee, Boston crowd. So I just like I think, Look,
I mean you, I'm sure you can make the case.
Like their starters we like a lot, didn't really see

(01:04:55):
him much last year because Johnson was hurt so much,
and then we like Canard, we like Porzingis, I mean
who knows and then who's the third guy that they go,
Oh my god, what am I doing? And I love
Na so much? Yeah, make the case they're a really
good team. Then maybe I should Adham higher.

Speaker 1 (01:05:13):
They you could kind of see that they were going
in this direction. It felt like last year where you
saw the vision of what they were trying to do
around Trey Young with a bunch of just like Rangey,
different defensive types, like more size around him, adding to
Keith Alexander Walker, to having Dyce and Daniels, to even
Jalen Johnson who's at least super portable, Zachary Resische there

(01:05:34):
and now Ason Newell as well. Like, I'm not saying
that they're gonna be a great defense, but like you've
successfully Trey Young, he's improved his defensive effort. I feel
like we need to qualify that. Every time we talk
about the Hawks and Trey Young's defense, it's still just
it's similar to he's worse because he's slighter. But like
teams go after Jalen Brunson on the Knicks even though
like he's not someone who doesn't try, like not try,

(01:05:56):
and Trey Young, we've seen the try factor. Oh. I
was listening to Dunkton by the Way a few days
and he called the Hornets try curious, and it got
me really laughing because it's like he's not sure whether
they're gonna try or not. I though that was great,
but saying that Trey Young tries, maybe he's try curious.
I'm the defensive end now, but it's like he's so
slight it doesn't matter. But they've kind of just insulated

(01:06:17):
themselves so well against even if they can't be a
top level defense, they have core lineups that they can
get to that will be a top level defense. And
now I think you get into the hell factor with them,
And I think that's maybe the biggest argument is to
like Christops and Jalen Johnson specifically, if either one of
those two guys doesn't stay healthy, their frontline rotation is

(01:06:39):
not the most proven, Like you have on Yaka kong
Wu and you have some guy like you know, always
playing Dyson Daniels and RESI chet as like kind of
your three, like not the end of the world, but
you are like sacrificing some things there. Trey Young is
still a ticket to like when you look at some
of the lineups he has had to carry and the
level of offensive talent there. I know that the Hawks have
not been like setting the world on fire offensively really

(01:07:01):
under Quinn Snyder. They still can when Trey's on the floor,
and that was with him having like not a good
season by not an efficient season by his standards last year,
and I think he was dealing with some Achilles stuff.
If he just shoots better from three or nudges up
the floater a little bit, this team becomes so much better.
So I'm looking at them and it's maybe I'm like

(01:07:22):
drinking the offseason kool aid a little like gulping it
a little too, you know, enthusiastically. But this is the
most balanced Tray Young team I've ever seen, and I
think it helps where my biggest question might be about
their secondary offensive creation. But it's like I don't know,
like between the kil Alexander Walker and if Jalen Johnson

(01:07:42):
is healthy and now Luke Kennard who is we know
him more as a shooter, but like when he's healthy
and it feels like I don't know if there's any
cartilage less than his knees, but he's got some just
what's the buzzword, like shifty wiggle, Like he's got some
of that off the dribble, and so go ahead.

Speaker 2 (01:07:59):
I was just saying, there's like he's not a special
he isn't is not a specialist because the shooting is
like he's one of the most accurate three point shooters ever,
but like he definitely has wiring that is like I
think to facilitate when I'm on the ball, and like
some guys don't have that, and so it's like a
it's like it's not his carrying skill, but it's definitely
like a part of the package for him. Whereas if

(01:08:19):
he's healthy and on the floor, like he really is
like a force multiplier offensively, not just because he's a shooter,
I think.

Speaker 1 (01:08:26):
And by the way, they still have the ability to
do this. I would feel more comfortable if just like
there was another floor general type that wasn't Kobe Buffkin
on this and he's had like the other night, he
had a really good Summer League game, So maybe he's
able to give you something this year, but like backup
point guard if you want to call again, I know
they have any kill Alexander Walker. You can go get
that in the middle of the season, like they have

(01:08:46):
the trade flexibility to do it. And I I was
not prepared to be on the Atlanta Hawks entering the summer.
If anything, I was like veering towards the opposite direction.
And so maybe they're a little too dependent on like, Okay,
the most improved play Diyson Daniels was that lightning in
a bottle? Or was it for real? And now you're
relying on Zachary Resache and how much you're gonna actually
rely on Ason Newell. So if you're doing things like that,

(01:09:09):
I could see where they inexperience and the mystery box
stuff might work against them. But like when you look
at the East and how many questions we have about
teams such as the Bucks, the Heat, the Sixers, the Pacers,
it just feels like there's a certainty in Atlanta that
so many teams outside of the Orlandos, the New York

(01:09:30):
the Clevelands just do not enjoy.

Speaker 2 (01:09:32):
Right, Yeah, I think that's right. Weirdly like is is
one of the biggest points of uncertainty actually surrounding Trey
because it not forget the extension stuff, just like the
his three point shot has not fallen like at high
enough rates for a couple of years now, and the
Achilles I think, I don't know if you even he

(01:09:53):
said it, but it's definitely been speculated that the Achilles
like was a factor there. I wonder, And I'm not
just like it's not just like a Devil's advocate thing.
I actually do wonder because I think it's possibly is
is he still for a minute there he was a
guy that like, if you have Trey Young, your offense
just can't be worse than tenth, you know, and maybe
it's top five just because he's that he's not quite

(01:10:14):
the STEPH level singular driver of offense, but like he's
in that next tier of guys. Is he capable of
being that with more talent around him now? Or is
this what we've seen the last couple of years where
the counting stats are still great, but like from an
efficiency perspective, he's not good enough to be that guy
that's driving your whole offense. Maybe he doesn't need to
be with more talent and if you have porzingis the

(01:10:36):
spacing's great, but does that resonate at all? Like I'm
not sure he's still there.

Speaker 1 (01:10:42):
I think he is, and I think what impacted him
more than anything again and like some of the offensive
lineups were able to sing with him less than his
best it was the lift was so heavy because there
was the lack of that secondary ball handling and a
lack of spacing. When you're looking at the pull other
players had you've now addressed, I would say probably. I
guess like the shooting more so, just because I don't

(01:11:03):
know how to feel about Naws like a secondary ball
handling guy. So between Christops, if Chalan Johnson's healthy, having
Lukenard there, Nikhil Alexander Walker's improved as a shooter, it
feels like there's going to be more room for him
to work in the half court. And I would be
pretty if he's healthy. I'd be pretty surprised if we
don't see his efficiency uptick. I don't want to say dramatically,

(01:11:26):
but fairly substantially. And so I do believe that. And
just you know the kind of Clint Capella like waxing
and waiting like he kind of lost a okay, like
the lob threat that you would have wanted, and so
maybe you still don't have that idea like on Yakka
kung who's there, and like that's not Porzingis's game, but
like now you've replaced it with more of a spacing element,
which I think ends up helping Trey as a score

(01:11:47):
and then a sprayer. Like when looking at his passing,
maybe again you're not gonna see as many assists at
the rim perhaps this year, but with Jalen Johnson and
on Yaka Kungu, maybe you do.

Speaker 2 (01:11:57):
Yeah, I guess I'm as I'm pulling the stats up,
I'm freaking out about like forty one percent from the
field thirty four percent from three the year before he
was forty three and thirty seven, which is like you're
gonna that's I'm not worried if he shoots forty three
percent from the field in thirty which is two point percentage,
looked like it's been it's been like forty seven ish
the last couple of years. He had a couple of

(01:12:18):
years over fifty. I think those those actually yeah, two
couple but yeah, he's like forty seven percent pretty metronogally
is that bold?

Speaker 1 (01:12:26):
I will predict that Trey Young hits half or more
of his two pointers this year.

Speaker 2 (01:12:30):
Oh, I like that's a great bold prediction. I'll probably
steal that if I get assigned that, because you're right,
the idea of like of porzingis stretching. Maybe he just
goes on a float or blitz because there's nobody in there.
I could see that happening.

Speaker 1 (01:12:45):
Man, if he's not healthy. The it's weird because it's
not so much his production for me that I think
makes this team so good, but it's sort of the
combinations and the options that he opens up by being
on the floor. And if he's not able to be
on the floor, I will say, aside for something happening
to Trey Young himself, that's could totally flip my perception

(01:13:05):
of this team.

Speaker 2 (01:13:06):
Right, Yeah, Well, he's just it's kind of the same
case as it was in Boston, where he just is
an element that you like, you know, you're not replicating
what porzingis provides through somebody else, like you you get
it from him or you don't get it in terms
of like the spacing, the switch busting like all that stuff. Yeah,
now all right.

Speaker 1 (01:13:22):
Force you to use a veto because you didn't use one.
But I had the Knicks in my B tier. I mean,
excuse me, the A tier. Excuse like I had the Knicks.

Speaker 2 (01:13:30):
I was goot a veto that real hard.

Speaker 1 (01:13:32):
I had the Knicks ahead of Orlando and Atlanta because
I believe that they're kind of like there's just a
separation between them and Cleveland for me. Yeah, but you
have them in that? Would you keep them in the
I just want you to use a veto you didn't.

Speaker 2 (01:13:45):
Yeah, I will use a veto and they have to
go up to the top tier with with Cleveland. Look
I I I well, maybe, layout, what is your main
reason for not having the Knicks in the top tier?
If you had to boil it, like, what's your biggest.

Speaker 1 (01:14:01):
I don't What they've telegraphed this offseason, and it's not unreasonable,
is that they believe their team as currently constructed is
a title contender, meaning that they could win the championship.
Whether you view that as just coming out of the
East or I would view it as if you think
that you can win the championship, it's beating anyone that
you may face in the Western Conference. I don't think

(01:14:24):
they're there, and I think the signings of they're there
in the sense of do I think they're their second
or third best team in the East. Sure, But like
the signings of Jordan Clarkson and Gershan Yabucelli, like the
they make your rotation deeper. But I feel like we're
just overlooking some things, like the wing depth on this
team right now is pretty bad outside of Josh Hart,

(01:14:45):
McHale Bridges and Ogiananobi, and then the offense should be
better under Mike Brown. Like I think there's more interplay
between Jayn Brunson and karl anthy Towns, which will be
that'll be a great thing. What are they defensively, I'd like,
can they be a league average defensive team while tapping
into the full weight of their offense? I don't know,
And like their signings in yabou Celli and Clarkson have

(01:15:08):
leaned almost all the way towards offense and now they
were fifth in offense last year, but they were fourteenth
after January first, so I kind of get the inclination.
But I'm sitting here like I feel like people I
hate saying this because it makes me an a hole.
Just Jordan Clarkson is not what I feel like a
lot of people are making Jordan Clarkson out to be
sure right now, like he improved as a pastor in Utah,

(01:15:29):
but just like that's not someone who was driving there
when they were overachieving. He wasn't the one driving it,
and he was putting up numbers when he was playing
for a really bad team and not doing so with
like the utmost of efficiency. I worry about both him
and Josh Hard and Yabuselli all coming off the same bench.
So I just don't know what to think there. And

(01:15:52):
I also think that there is the potential for just
a curveball to be thrown and now could be a
good curve ball, at least in my eyes, where it's like, oh,
does Lebron decide rather than what we reported about him
going to the Mavericks a couple right like a week ago,
Like does he go to okay here? But could you
see them moving Mitchell Robinson or McHale bridges because they
didn't sign an extension. There's I think there's a lower

(01:16:13):
floor here, or I shouldn't even say that. Their floor
feels exceptionally high, but they have a lower ceiling to
me right now. And it's not because I believe that
Jalen Brunson's like elimiting stylistic factor on offense. I actually
believe the opposite. I just don't know what their defensive
ceiling is. And I also just look, I have some
concerns about Mike Brown too. Is you know what was

(01:16:34):
one of the Kings fans' biggest complaints about him when
he got fired. His rotation was too top heavy, and
everyone's viewing him as like this antidote to Tom Thibodeau
running a shallow rotation, which I find curious and like, yeah,
they have more options now because it is the other
thing that And you know, I was hard on TIBs,
like I became a TIBs defender, I feel like by
the end of last year. But everyone who was playing

(01:16:56):
the kids make the rotation deeper? What what? Like? What?
Who did you want him to play a bunch more
like yo, okay, trying Duce McBride, trying Mitchell Robinson in
the starting lineup when he was healthy that stuff. Yeah,
he didn't maybe experiment enough. Do you run into that
with Mike Brown, I'm sure like that was a mandate.
So it won't. But Tyler Kollach has not impressed me
during summer League. Pocomb Dottier was whatever before he gets injured, Like,

(01:17:18):
just where is the extra pizazz like coming from the
I think it's meaningfully, it means something that their rotation
is deeper, like they're two more NBA players deep, right,
But like, in terms of measuring up to Cleveland, I
have a really tough time get like I wouldn't you.
I couldn't pick them to beat Cleveland in a seven
game series, right you couldn't. I don't know what the
case would be for them to beat Cleveland in a

(01:17:39):
seven game series right now, quite frankly.

Speaker 2 (01:17:40):
So that's a great segue because that's my sticking point
with like, I think Cleveland. In the regular season, there'll
be a bigger gap between Cleveland as the top seed
in the East and the Knicks at number two than
there will be between the Knicks and like Atlanta or
Orlando or whatever. I think like regular season wise, I'm
much more persuaded that the Knicks don't belong in this tier.

(01:18:02):
But the Calves just keep leaving the playoffs before they should.
And sometimes that's happened because the Knicks beat them, and
the Knicks in contrast, like just keep proving it in
postseason settings, Like I mean, I trust Brunson. I don't
love how Brunson play is. It gets results, it works,
they keep you know, they've had good postseasons. I think

(01:18:25):
the fact that I don't trust the Calves yet to
figure it out in the games that matter is just
why I have them in this same tier. But I
have to acknowledge all the points you brought up about
the Knicks, like potential frailties, while at the same time,
like I think you should say, uh, Jordan Clarkson like
not a big deal, still probably better than campaign, Like

(01:18:46):
maybe maybe not. Mike Brown, who knows the offense, has
to be more dynamic and interesting and varied with him
than Thibodeau. So like, there's these marginal improvements I think
that you could point to that may not even really
matter until the postseason. But I do think that there
is an argument that the Knicks should be better in
a handful of ways and should it. In fact, like

(01:19:06):
the expectations should be that they're better in a handful
of ways. Uh, the Calves are great, They're gonna win
sixty games, or whatever it is again and run away
with the number one seed and then what happens after that.
I'm pricing that in, I guess, just because I think
that you have to you have to consider that type
of thing. If it's like who are the best teams?
Like I think that I would trust the Knicks to

(01:19:28):
go farther than the Calves in the playoffs, like just
I don't know, maybe I'll change my tune if Cleveland
pulls it off, but I don't know that that's part
of it.

Speaker 1 (01:19:36):
I feel uncomfortable saying this, but I almost feel like
if we were factoring in just the playoffs, that I
would have the Magic ahead of the Knicks in a
tier right now, because that like if you can operate
in the muck, and we did to, like the Knicks
kind of ratcheted up defensively at points in the playoffs.
I'm not trying to dismiss that. Oh yeah, well, like
couldn't you see Orlando when you're looking at the overall balance,

(01:19:57):
like the separation between their offense and defense doesn't have
like they would have better balance or could have better
balance in the Knicks.

Speaker 2 (01:20:03):
I would still look like we just you were on
the high end, and you said they might have the
number fourteen offense. I'm way more concerned about Orlando top fourteen.
That was the top fourteen, that could be number one.
I'm way more concerned about Orlando's postseason scoring than I
am about the Knicks postseason defense, because we've seen the
Knicks hit a level that like that is okay, this
flies in the playoffs. If you can play this hard

(01:20:25):
like and defend this way, you're fine. Or we assume
Orlando's going to be better offensively. I feel like such
an old man being like I need to see it,
you know, but I just I have questions about Orlando's
scoring until they they answer them.

Speaker 1 (01:20:39):
Grant to quote the Santa Claus Believing seeing isn't believing,
Believing is seeing.

Speaker 2 (01:20:45):
Oh that's like that sounds that sounds sufficiently like faux profound.
I think, is this a Tim Allen Santa Claus? Is
that the one? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:20:53):
Okay, So the Calves are do you worry at all
about like they're kind of point of attack defense or
just their overall wing, Like it's Hunter and it's Lonzo
Ball and it's Dean Wade. Now that Isca Coro's gone out,
I was fine with the Isica Corrol trade. He wasn't
a playoff player to me, So I'm not trying to say, ah,
they fucked up, Isaaca Korro should still be there, yep.

(01:21:15):
I just they can do it. And like you have
Evan Mobley and Jared Allence, like those are your stop gaps.
But I would probably still like their primary defensive wing
when you have Garland and Mitchell to be better than
what they have right now.

Speaker 2 (01:21:29):
Yeah, yeah, you know, you just made me think of something.
I think. Lonzo Ball to me is like the Sixers
of players in that like you should not expect full health,
but if you get it, he's a huge addition, like
massive to what Cleveland might do. And the Sixers should
not expect full health, but if you get it, they're
like the second, first or second seed in the conference.

(01:21:51):
So it's like the Ball thing. He just made me think,
like that was such a great trade because a Coro
just clearly was not gonna be on the floor in
the minutes that mattered, and Ball like absolutely can be
whether if he plays twenty five regular season games, you'd
still throw them out there.

Speaker 1 (01:22:04):
And you know what's interesting about that is I should
have looked this. I didn't know I was gonna make
this point, so I can't say I should have looked
at the numbers for it, but hasn't it seemed like
their offense has what's lacked the necessary dynamic in a
lot of like the playoff settings, and he's someone who
comes in and can add just different looks, not just
as a shooter but like, no, you don't want him
breaking down set defenses, but as a ball movers, throwing

(01:22:26):
those hit a head passes or getting out in transition,
like he still does all that stuff. And so it
feels like I know what he can do defensively, and
I know he's a good fit, and if you were
gonna lose ti Jerome, like yeah, for sure, But I
kind of feel like where Cleveland is lagged sometimes like
he might just add a dynamic to their offense. They
had the best postseason offense in the league, So I
guess I'm just basing this off an eye test that

(01:22:47):
was completely wrong through nine games, though, So I just
I feel like their offense could be a touch more
even if they lost on ball dynamism by going from
Tijerome to Lonzo Ball, feels like they might have opened
up more and like, by the way, the other thing is,
I don't have we mentioned his name yet, Like could
Evan Bobley just get better again?

Speaker 2 (01:23:06):
Right? Yeah? I he probably will, Like he shouldn't he
at this at this stage of his career. I think,
like I just I just think ball, like maybe the
connective passing is like all it takes. And just having
like Jerome even he kind of a chorroed in that
like yeah, it looks good, I mean looked great regular

(01:23:28):
season and it's like, oh, we kind of can't play
this guy because it's like bullshit, like leaning into the
defender doesn't work to defenders that against defenders that have
scouted it, like like that that type of thing like ball,
I think, I don't know what. I don't know what
takes ball off the floor other than just health. And
that's like for a team with Cleveland's ambitions, like that's
the only thing you should care about.

Speaker 1 (01:23:47):
He is the the Philadelphia seventy six ers of Derek White's.

Speaker 2 (01:23:53):
That's what it has to be. Something tying back to
Derek White. Who's the Derek White, the Derek White of.

Speaker 1 (01:24:00):
Who's the Derek White the Derek White of I don't know,
like the I don't know Dwayne Wade. Is there something
with a Dwayne Wade. I'm just the shot blocking guards.
I don't think that's a word. Their their depth though
I think that inoculates them against one of the like
regular season pratt falls. Is just they their floor. So
I agree with you probably I'm pretty much everything you

(01:24:20):
said about the playoffs. What is their regular season win total? Floor?
Is it just fifty? Like?

Speaker 2 (01:24:24):
Like what is yeah? If I mean if you take
out it's like it might be like fifty three, fifty
four if you if you just okay, if Garland misses
forty games or something, or Mitchell or whatever, then maybe,
but like it's just it's so high. It's i mean,
other than why we can't really compare it to the
West because it's such a different environment. But like, I

(01:24:45):
don't know, floor wise, I don't think any team in
this conference is within like five wins.

Speaker 1 (01:24:50):
Yeah, I think I think that's right. I think they're
gonna win at least five more games than anybody in
the in the East. Should we recap see where we have? Yeh,
So that I'm sure everybody agree with everything. That's what
was going on in the chat, as they said, we
were one hundred percent right. We appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (01:25:04):
Yeah, so I'll start that start a tier F. We've
got Charlotte, Brooklyn, and Washington. I guess in that order?
Do we do we agree on consensus order? Or does
that even.

Speaker 1 (01:25:14):
Mass I kind of feel like there was someone in
the chat that said the Wizards are going to be
like better than the Hornets, and then I could see
the Wizards like just like it feels like the Nets
are gonna try harder to be bad than the Wizards
this year. So I could do you want to flip
flop Washington in Brooklyn?

Speaker 2 (01:25:29):
Sure? Why not? Doesn't make a huge all right? Moving
on Toronto, Miami, Indiana, and Chicago in the D tier.
I guess these this is your play in tier basically
above them Detroit, Milwaukee, Boston, Dan exercise a veto moved
the Hawks two tiers up, but the Sixers tier, which

(01:25:51):
is the one above that doesn't really exist. We've decided
they're just like it's like a question, different different dimension.
So the Sixers are by themselves in the beatire just
because who the fuck knows above them, We've got Orlando
in Atlanta. I have no issue with that. I see
the upside in Atlanta. I did an off season grade
piece for them and they got an A plus. So
I don't know what I'm talking. I don't know why

(01:26:12):
I'm gonna tier Yeah, yeah, just should they even be
in this conference? Uh? And then above them in the
top tier. I exercised the veto to get the Knicks
up here alongside the Calves. Uh to the two top
teams in the East. How do you feel?

Speaker 1 (01:26:28):
I feel I like the Tyo Derek Wise, the Dwayne
Wade of Eddie Jones is? How you feel about that one?

Speaker 2 (01:26:32):
The Dwayne Wade of Eddie Jones is? I love it.
I think that's the That's that's really well said, Starville.

Speaker 1 (01:26:38):
Other than my Hornets winning eighty two games, you were
one hundred percent accurate. I'll tell you I favor it.
I like it. Thank you, Starville. This is a fun exercise.
We will do it with the West at some point.
But do you have any like final just anything like
coming away from it, like overall arching thoughts about the East?

Speaker 2 (01:26:53):
I would say I don't normally feel this way after
we do something like this, But don't you think that
the tiers kind of for the most part are like
fairly clearly delineated. There's like the very worst, there's your
play in chunk, there's that squishy middle, and then there's
just a couple at the time. I don't know, like normally,
I feel like there's more room for debate.

Speaker 1 (01:27:10):
Yeah, I think aside from the Sixers, it doesn't feel
like there's any major watt Like the Hawks are probably
the most divisive team in the Eastern Conference, right like
because the Sixers, it's just yeah, if you're gonna tell me,
everybody plays in a bunch of games, like Okay, yeah,
they're gonna be good and if they don't, they're gonna
be bad. So I'm trying to think of, like what's
the we talk about swing players, what's like the swing team,

(01:27:31):
Cause you're if you try to game it and say, well, like,
is there a team that could really make a mega
trade to try and do something I like, I don't.
I could see it being the Pistons a little bit too,
but like, could it also be the Hawks, like one
of those two teams? Maybe?

Speaker 2 (01:27:44):
I think it Like maybe the way to look at
it is like which team or teams like have the
opportunity to move like multiple tiers, you know, like and
after it happened, you'd be like, oh, I get it.
I think the Pistons maybe moving up would be one.
I think Orlando jumping into the very top would be
like that that's on the table. I think I mean

(01:28:05):
going the other way, certainly Boston or or if there's
a Giannis trade, Milwaukee could follow a couple of tiers
into the Just there's the no hope, like we don't
even want to be in the play in level?

Speaker 1 (01:28:16):
Yeah, is there? Like I can't even spot, like because
you can't call it the Hawks, Like is there a
Detroit Pistons from last year in the conference? Like what's
the team that's on the younger end? Or like that's unproven?
Is it? It would have to be the Raptors. I
guess it's just the pick by default actually mean the Wizards, well.

Speaker 2 (01:28:35):
Charlotte if it's like, if you want their team the
win total, you have to start with a team that
has has won in the teams and Charlotte would qualify
like they But is Charlotte gonna win forty four games?
Like that's that's your Pistons leap, which is just like
I don't know, man, that that's that's that's a huge jump.

Speaker 1 (01:28:52):
You can give me any record prediction for the sixers
and I can't argue. I'd probably be with you. Eurostep
is the West going to be ok see? And like
twelve teams? Thanks? I mean, I haven't thought about it
that much yet, but it could be. This one's when
the Bucks flipped Kuzma and stuff for a real small forward.
They'll jump up carry the hashtag carry the hell on?
Thank you Capers here, I did you? I guess my

(01:29:14):
read on the butt the Eurostep podcast network no better
than we did. But like my read on the Bucks
is like they're not like they're saving How are they
trading Kyle Kuzma? I guess at this point because I'm
assuming they're positive good luck well, because I'm assuming they
won't attach first round equity because they're saving it. Like
the whole idea to me was you bought yourself another
year with Giannis and now next summer when you could

(01:29:35):
trade up the three first round picks, you trade that
with Kyle Kuzma's expiring salary at that point and then
whatever else. That's my read on their situation, like did
they sell, Like if the Bucks get like a starting
caliber wing. Then yeah, I'm just trying to think, like
are they gonna make a Kuzma? Like are they gonna
be the team that gets Jeremy Grant? And then I'm
gonna have a lot of questions about like what they're
doing that's gonna get that.

Speaker 2 (01:29:56):
I just I don't know. I I find myself having
to fight the pessimism when it comes to Milwaukee. I
don't know why. I just it. It just I don't
know what Yannis and Turner plus some guys gets you.
With coach by Doc Rivers, I don't know what that
gets you. We'll see Rivers throw.

Speaker 1 (01:30:15):
It's just absolutely savage. Thanks for anyone who's stuck with us. Well,
I mean this was short for us. Ninety minutes. Is
light work for this?

Speaker 2 (01:30:21):
Pretty good?

Speaker 1 (01:30:22):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:30:22):
Right?

Speaker 1 (01:30:23):
Are you have anything else to say or are you
ready to take us out here? Nope?

Speaker 2 (01:30:26):
Thanks everybody, Thanks for the comments, Thanks for watching, listening.
Make sure wherever you're consuming this now rate review, subscribe.
If you're seeing this on YouTube, way in there, let
us know. But you use the comments to put in
your whole tiers. It's only fifteen teams like give us,
give us a can.

Speaker 1 (01:30:39):
You here's the challenge. Can you come up with more tears?

Speaker 2 (01:30:42):
Yeah, the bar's been said at six for fifteen teams,
so you know, try to really split hair is better
than we either. Good luck is what I would say
to you. Let's see, tell your friends, tell your enemies.
Drawn our discord links for that YouTube podcast description. Till
next time, shouts franklently keen. Apologies are an