Western Conference Tiers - With Dan Favale & Grant Hughes

Mort is still on vacation, so Dan & Grant took over the feed for a few episodes, starting with Western Conference Tiers.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
What is up, Fellasi goos, I am Dan Favalley coming
at you with my certified fantabs cost mister Grant Hues.
We apologize for the live stream delay to anyone who
was waiting. We were dealing and still are dealing with
some tech issues, so you might notice Grant's cameras a
little different. The mic settings are not what we would prefer.
After we finally I feel like got everything hammered out.

(00:26):
What we're reverting because technology hates us, but we're powering
through anyway, because look, no one's ever done NBA Western
Conference tiers before immediately following like the the most busiest
time of NBA free agency in the offseason, so we
felt like we would do something different that no one's
ever done before, and we just had to make sure
to get this out there. So Grant, after the stressful

(00:47):
about forty three minutes that you just had trying to
get everything right, how are you doing?

Speaker 2 (00:52):
Not at all? Annoyed, not super not into my rope.
I just want to make clear like this doesn't matter.
But I didn't change anything, I didn't mess with my setup,
and yet here we are so deeply frustrated. If I'm
gonna be honest with you.

Speaker 1 (01:08):
Losso, and I might say this a couple of times.
If you're in the chat and you notice any mega
volume discrepancies, I will obviously fix this an audio later,
but I can try to fix it as best I
can live. We're dealing with you, guys don't need to know,
but just we're We're not doing this on purpose, is
all we shot out. Shout out to Grant for figuring
out some type of there's like books involved and shit
like there's some real life like the stuff we do

(01:31):
to put out content that no one else has put
out before. But that's enough of me. Just look atting
my shoulder, patting us on the back, sir. As we
talked about when we did the Eastern Conference, go check
that out. If you do not. Is there anything any either,
like something you kept specifically in mind. How did some
of the unsettled free agency stuff impact how you viewed
teams at all? Is or just any just overarching notes

(01:51):
we need to lay down before we dig into the
to the muck.

Speaker 2 (01:55):
I mean, I think I would refer back to what
we talked about on the East, but I would say, like,
we're taking these teams as they are, so there are
some that maybe there's a move or two to be
made that everybody expects them to make, but it hasn't
happened yet. I'm not really assuming those are definite. Like
just the Warriors, like, oh, they've been were rumored to
get Al Horford for example, hasn't happened. Who knows if

(02:17):
it will happen. I'm just kind of taking them as
they are at the moment. There aren't too many cases
like that, but that's the only sort of caveat. I
guess maybe there is some flexibility with these. There should be.
It's like mid July and we're tiering conferences, so things
could change obviously, But yeah, just to reiterate, we're just
looking at I don't know, you correct me if you

(02:38):
kind of think of it differently at all, but we're
looking at sort of the proxy for like how we
think the conference standings are going to look at the
end of the season. That's really hard because we are
going to just talk about like ranges and ceilings and floors.
But that's also a pretty good stand in for you know,
who's got the most championship equity, And I think we

(02:59):
can note it where you know, if this team is
actually in a tier, you know, a second tier team
or something, but we think maybe there's a third tier
team that might actually have a better title shot. Like
we have to kind of juggle that. That's been kind
of the tricky part, but you know, we're just doing
rankings and tiers. It's not that complicated really, we don't
need to overthink it beyond that.

Speaker 1 (03:19):
Wow way to just throw away all of our hard work.
And the final note we have is we each get
one veto sure if we did last time, and we're
hoping that Grant will use this, so we're alternate. We'll
go through it by tier, but we're alternate. When Grant
picks the team to go into your f there'll be
six tiers. As always, we want to know your thoughts
in the comment If you have questions, we'll try to
get to them throughout. And again, if you're having any
volume issues live, like if there's a discrepancy in what

(03:41):
the mics are sounding or this is unnavigable for you,
let us know. We'll try and fix it the best
that we can. But I think with that, and we're
gonna have a blake screen for a second because Grant
was in and out so many times that he probably
got booted from the stage. I'm got to throw on.
We're going to begin with the F tier, so grant
you're back. I scared for like a little laughing hint

(04:03):
in the chat tier Utah Jazz. Hey, they don't get wrong.
We're not wrong. I like Austin ahe kind of gaming
about we're not gonna tank, but we're just gonna be
so bad that even when we try to wait in that,
it's not gonna work out either.

Speaker 2 (04:17):
That's how you end up in your own tier at
the very bottom. This is the Utah Jazz loan loan
proprietors of Tier F. Unless you feel differently and want
an exercise a veto right away, I dare you use
it all the way down here? What a waste.

Speaker 1 (04:29):
That's what's tough about the vito, by the way, is
you have to consider when to use it.

Speaker 2 (04:34):
It's it's not unlike a coach's challenge. Do you burn
it in the first quarter or do you wait for
a high leverage moment. I think I think you gotta wait.
You could throw up to three teams I think in
a tier with the Jazz if you really wanted to, Uh,
I not have six tiers for example, Like, but do

(04:56):
you think it's fair to have Utah like a loan
in a tier of one at the bottom. Do you
think the Jazz are different enough from just say the
next handful or I think it's three teams two or
three we're gonna discuss.

Speaker 1 (05:08):
Yeah, I mean they've telled there. Look, there's only one
team in the Western Conference trying to lose next year,
or at least doesn't think that they're trying to lose
shout out to the Pelicans maybe, But so I think
that the Jazz clearly need to blow. I don't know
what would be the case, Like, if there's a team
that's as bad as the Jazz next year, it's unintentional.
And so if we read the tiers midseason, that's where

(05:30):
we'd put them in. How do you grapple though, with
Utah to give them some actual shine? First, I think
this is the right decision because they're still looking for
You can get mad that they haven't found their best
player of the future. That's not going to change the fact,
like maybe they have Ace Bailey in it, but you
could be mad that they didn't find him before. Now,
the reality of this situation is what they're doing at
this moment is their best shot at finding that player

(05:52):
by one kind of giving the ball to Ace Balley
and then two like maximizing their lottery odds for next year.
And they do. They're pick technically O to OKAC if
it falls in the top eight. But when you're looking
at this team, what are you kind of actually watching for?
Is it just okay? Well? How good is as Bailey?
Is he potentially the guy? Or is there just any

(06:13):
anything more about the direction or maybe certain players or
a grouping of players that that intrigues you.

Speaker 2 (06:19):
I think in general your one I there's two kind
of things. I guess one is the emergence of a
cornerstone type that's that's become such a broken record at
this point, it's been three years of a rebuild. They
don't have that guy. That's why the Bailey pick made sense.
It was a high risk, high reward kind of play,
which you just have to make if you've been in
this sort of cycle for as long as the Jazz

(06:40):
have without getting someone that you could point to as
you know, he's he's gonna be. He's got an all
star ceiling. Even we're not even talking like best player
on a championship team, Like that's we're going to try
to work up to that if if you're the Jazz.
So there's that aspect of it, and that has to
center on Bailey I, you know, and then I I
guess it's just the guys that fit around that. Like

(07:02):
I still think Taylor Hendrix is someone not not as
like a super duper star, but is he someone that
becomes like the Aaron Gordon of the Jazz type of thing?

Speaker 1 (07:11):
You know.

Speaker 2 (07:11):
It's things like that, And then you're looking at Collier
and George. Are either of them gonna you know, prove
themselves to be first unit guards on a good team?
Long way to go there? And then there's a Lori
market And the second thing is like where does he fit?
Can he pump up his trade value? Is trading him
the plan? That's kind of the separate aspect to consider

(07:33):
with the Jazz.

Speaker 1 (07:34):
Yeah, the Larry market and stuff's interesting because it's I
think he's not untouchable despite what they say about him
being a cornerstone. But you don't just the timeline that
you're on, you don't just trade him for anything because
he makes a lot of money. You already. Look, you
got rid of a bunch of the other older dudes,
so I'd echo everything you say there. I do think
obviously want to see what as Bailey is, but I
think I might just be most excited to be like, Okay,
it's Taylor Hendrick's healthy, and what does he look like?

(07:55):
Kyle Philipowski had some exciting moments in Summer League too.
I'm also kind of wondering the glutt of just sort
of like they cleared it up a little bit by
getting rid of Collins, but the Philipowski, Hendrix, Walker Kessler
of it all, like can you play those three together?
And Lowry market In is there, like how do you
sort of game that can any one of them? Aside
from Lowry play the three? But I like I lovel

(08:15):
Hardy as a head coach. He'll try some creative things.
But this team, yeah, they're I think they're right to
belong in a tier all their own, which means grant
that we can move up to tiered. Move up to
that's so insulting, but it's Tier D. And so the
first team that I'm gonna put in Tier D is

(08:36):
let's go with the Phoenix Suns. Here, I think I
think that's the play. They did extend Devin Booker and
they also bought out Bradley Buhle, and then you know
that's basically it. Like they drafted Capmint mallawatch, they traded
Kevin Durant. Wow, I didn't even mention that. You look
at this team and I don't actually, can we talk
about the the Bradley Beal the Devin Booker stuff before

(08:59):
getting into I don't have an issue with them extending
Devin Booker. They gave him a player option, so I
think you can say, as an organization, if you were
ready to move on or worry about hurting his trade value,
you wouldn't give him that extension. But like, you just
don't have anything other than Devin Booker in place right now,
so I understand why you pay him to keep him happy.
And they're like that deal could still be moved later.

(09:21):
This runs through like his age thirty two, age thirty
three season, whatever it is. I thought I found the
reaction to it like kind of funny, like, well, I
don't view it. Maybe it's not going to be the
best contract by the end, but what else did you
want the Sons to do? What I actually take more
of an issue with is that you're clearly headed nowhere
in the near term. There probably were other ways for

(09:42):
you to get out of the second apron. I know,
we saw all the money that Matt HBO was able
to save by the Bradley Beal buyout and wave and stretch.
Unless you have like some other move lined up that
you think is going to significantly elevate your team, you
should have just bit the bullet and let this contract
run its course, because I don't like the way it

(10:03):
was framed as they open up all this flexibility to
the unfreeze future draft picks, and I get it, but again,
you could have figured out other ways to get out
of the second apron, and then beyond that, if you're
not planning on being good, the functional limitations don't mean shit.
Do you know what this becomes about? It becomes about
saving money, And so Matt Ishbia like the guy, like
this guy who's willing to spend. I understand the team's
not good enough to justify paying that much, but you

(10:25):
just have like twenty million dollars on your books in
dead money for the next half decade. They are going
to pay an average of forty five plus percent of
the salary cap or the next half decade to Beil
and Devin Booker, and only one of them plays for
the Phoenix Suns. And so I find that incredibly uninspiring,
incredibly short sighted, which kind of fits the motif of

(10:48):
everything that's happened under Matt Ishbia since he took the
reins of this organization.

Speaker 2 (10:54):
So you just did what I always do with the Suns,
which is I can't look past the sort of like
general fuckery of the last couple of years and like
how it's ruined them going forward. And like I agree
with everything you said, except like I didn't love the
Booker extension just because, like just why you have three

(11:14):
more years? Like what's the like is it to make
him happy? Do you? I don't know how it affects
his trade value? I get, I mean it's it's really
just one more guaranteed year. But what I wanted to say,
I'll throw it to you, but I just want to say,
like I have a hard time just answering the question
of how good is this team next year, because it's
like the tenth thing I think about when I think

(11:36):
about the Suns, because it's I'm annoyed by Ishbiah and
I they keep doing all this dumb stuff and that,
you know, the beal By Like we got to have
at some point in conversation just about how good this
team actually is on the floor next year, because that's
sort of what we're doing here. But I think we're
telegraphing how good the answer to that because they're just
in a tier narrowly above the jazz. But do you
you get caught up in that too, right? Do you

(11:57):
catch yourself doing that? I do it all the time.
I can't just think of the Suns the battle.

Speaker 1 (12:01):
They're inextricably tied together because when you're talking about the moves,
they like, what is the okay? All this flexibility that
it opened up? What is the plan here? And wouldn't
have been more beneficial to figure out another way to
get out of the second aprin Maybe you have to
wave and stretch other people at smaller amounts over the
next five years. Like if you think you can't just
trade a Royce O'Neil into another team's cap space, they

(12:21):
sorry mid level except or I don't know, maybe the
Nests would be like, yeah, we could totally trade him
for seconds, like you could come into our cap space
reunite with Royce O'Neil, Like, that's that's what I You're right,
I can't get past it. But when you look at
the actual basketball team doesn't. So they went from having
and they still do. But unless you think that Jalen
Green or Dylan Brooks is gonna make this monumental leap

(12:42):
as a playmaker like they could, they need a floor
general in here, and I'm higher on Devin Booker as
a playmaker than most, But when you look at the
bigs that they have in Malawatch, Mark Williams, Nick Richards,
they need like an organizer and like someone who's really
schooled and throwing all these lobs. And it can't just
be Devin Booker to me. And so this felt I
know everyone, and maybe it'll break while we're doing this.

(13:04):
Has CP three still going to the Clippers to reunite
with James Harden and be their what their their fourth
guard or their third guard? Weird? But like, if he's
not gonna go to the Clippers, like this seems like
a no brainer just to bring him back to Phoenix.
I saw some people like, well he wants to start
and we don't know if we will, who the fuck
cares bring Jalen Green off the bench if you have
any or or bring Dylan Brooks off, You're not gonna

(13:26):
be good anyway. Like at least get someone in who's
gonna help you groom your bigs moving forward. So that's
my thoughts on the Sun's the basketball team. Is there
still some younger players? I like in Ryan Dunn, I'm
actually not really a malawatch guy, but it's just so
early on his development. I love OsO Wigodaro so lean
into that more. I just I know Beal had become
toxic and kind of one of the harbingers of everything

(13:49):
the Suns did wrong. But you can't make that move
and then like your biggest move after that is like, hey,
we were mentioned in the Jonathan Comingus sweepstakes that we
have no way of pulling off. Like that just can't
be it.

Speaker 2 (14:01):
Yeah, No, I think like part of the reason we
both I'll just use use I since since I feel
like I do it the most. Fixate on I don't
know the bigger picture Suns things is like that the
roster itself is like I don't know, there's You've got
Devin Booker and I don't know. Maybe Jalen Green pops
Delan Brooks will defend. You've got three conventional centers if

(14:22):
you include Malawatch, which kind of buries a Gudaro, which
I don't love, and then Grayson Allen and O'Neil are
kind of meh. So like, I just don't see like
they're gonna try to win. But what do you think,
like the upper limit of their win total is, like
can they win forty five? Like if everything goes right
or is even that just way too long? I like,

(14:44):
if Booker's all NBA second team plays, you know, stays healthy,
and then I don't know, just Brooks and Jalen Green
are what they were last year? Is there a way
to like a sixth seed or anything?

Speaker 1 (14:57):
No, they're not not a six seed, like if you
they were in the plane or maybe they were slight
like forty two and forty maybe, but like without some
type Like I just what is the theory of this
team right now? And obviously we don't know enough about
jor not as a head coach, so maybe that it
feels like the offense will be more inventive, but we
don't know the theory of this team. And when you
look at. I mean, we're not like we're not talking

(15:20):
about these other teams. There's a lot of other good
teams in the West as far as I'm concerned, like
the top six or seven spots just might already be
spoken for it.

Speaker 2 (15:28):
Yeah right, I kind of I feel like, so I'm
gonna throw you a curveball because I did update my
tiers without telling you that I have two more teams
in the same tier.

Speaker 1 (15:36):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (15:37):
And they they line up with the Suns in that
like they're real NBA players on the roster. There's some upside,
but there's like a sense of hopelessness that sort of
like just like wingers is like hanging over them. That
just feels like they belong here. So I'm gonna nominate
another team. I'm gonna nominate. Uh, let's see which of

(15:57):
the two to A. I'll give you the one you expect,
which is the Sacramento Kings.

Speaker 1 (16:01):
I I'm actually excited that you made some changes because
I feel like I was gonna have to use one
of my vetos with the way you had some stuff.
This was from behind in exil. They're fucked. Only winner
is Booker. We can cars around these parts. You don't
need to bleep out any of the vowels just to
make it to make a child for them.

Speaker 2 (16:20):
Uh So, the Kings just like, unless you're a real
big believer in Dennis Shrewder nine teams in twelve years
as just a high end starter. They don't have a
point guard. They can use Malik Monk. They can hope
Devin Carter develops there. They can run more stuff through Sabonis.
But Sabonis is going to be overtaxed again because they

(16:40):
trade away Yonas Valanciunas and he was like the first
decent backup center they'd had in a long time. So
other than Keegan Murray, we don't love the Wings. I
guess Kean Ellis qualifies.

Speaker 1 (16:50):
But they're just looking good that.

Speaker 2 (16:54):
Sure. I mean I think I think they're a good
bet to be a high thirties win maybe, But there's
real downside here if the Sabonish, I don't know, per
potential dissatisfaction comes to a head, because then you're just
a totally identity identity list team if Sabonis isn't on

(17:14):
this team. Uh So, yeah, I just don't see a
ton of upside. We haven't even mentioned DeRozan and Levine.
But those guys are just they are why a team
like the Kings and formally the Bulls are just capped
at a certain level. And so uh, I think you
price in the significant downsides here, the sort of nonsensical ownership, management,

(17:37):
coaching situation, and it's just it's easier to see this
going real bad than real good.

Speaker 1 (17:43):
I guess is where I don't you keep looking at
their roster and find yourself thinking there's no way their
offseason can be done. That's that's where I'm matt with it.
You talk about not being able to get past Phoenix's moves,
I can't get past like Sacramento's lack of moves other
than Denis Shrewder. It just doesn't what is the theory
of this team? And I think you know, we can

(18:05):
sit here and criticize them as we should, or at
least say like I don't know that they belong and
like you could probably yeah, you could talk yourself and
it be like, oh, hey, should they be in the
CETI are awesome, That's not like, that's not where you
want to be when you have zach Lavine and Domas
Sabonis making like almost one hundred million dollars together. So
I don't. I don't. This is another team where I

(18:25):
don't understand the theory of what it's supposed to look like.
And I think that because you have a bunch of
good secondary creators, like you know, this is like a
really bad landing spot for Dennis shooter act actually because
I think that he's better if he can have the
ball and there's gonna be everyone to go play off
of him with like the Rosan and then Levine playing
off of him. Okay, fine, but like there's some interplay

(18:46):
between him and Sibonis, but sure is not the best
shooter and the King's just like not a lot of
intuitive guys away like of their primaries away from the ball,
not as as seamless a fit as it was next
to Kate Cunningham on a team that didn't have j
and Ivy. So but I also so I sit here
and I look at it and like they deserve all
the criticism because they put themselves here. I don't know
what they do, Like we could sit here. It's not

(19:07):
just like they could maybe need Clifford Pops. You still
have Keon Ellis, Like you could talk me into them
needing a wing in addition to a point guard. They
still need a backup five. Like, that's too many needs
for July eighteenth. As we're recording this.

Speaker 2 (19:22):
It's too many needs and it's the number of needs
and the severity of those needs is made worse by
the questions you have to ask about. Like they're like
the pillars here, Like I mean, Demarta Rosen has defied
aging forever. This is gonna be his age thirty six season,
and he's you know, I don't know that he's making
anybody better. And zach Lavine comes with all the defensive

(19:42):
questions and he's that you mentioned like not a lot
of intuitive passers, Like, yeah, that's that's zach Lavine. That's
like point bullet point number two on the scouting report.
Probably you know, I like Malik Monk, but I like
him as a six man, and.

Speaker 1 (19:55):
I forgot about him while we were talking a lot and.

Speaker 2 (19:58):
A right like Sibonis gets the numbers. My my stance
on Sabonis is well documented. I just like, carry on,
poor Kean Murray, poor guys. It's tough, Okay.

Speaker 1 (20:14):
So is there something like an maybe even archetype of
player if you have a name where'd be like, Oh,
they went out and got that kind of player, you'd
feel a little bit better about bumping them up to
because if you get into the Sea Tier in the
Western Conference, you're probably fringe top six at that point, right,
or at least have a case to get in there.

Speaker 2 (20:32):
Yeah, for sure, there's a big chunk of teams we're
gonna get to in the Sea tier that What do.

Speaker 1 (20:38):
You like, Oh, you know, I'm sorry, this is what
do you think of them being linked to Jonathan kaminga
What do you think of that fit?

Speaker 2 (20:46):
It feels on brand and kind of a lot of
the worst ways to me, just because he like him
with DeRozan and Levine is just like get you're gonna
that offense is just gonna be so bereft of like
good cutting and off ball stuff, and like the help
defense on that team will just be abysmal. Like he

(21:08):
I get it from the stance of like this, he's
kind of a by low maybe and like you should
take a shot on him. He's still very young. If
you're a team like the Kings that just doesn't really
have a young guy you could project forward as a
as a high end starter or Murray's probably that or
as a star, but he just doesn't address a single
thing that that they you know that that's wrong with

(21:29):
the roster other than like positionally, I guess like his body,
his body type, his frame is like, yeah, it'd be
good to have here, But in terms of how he
actually plays, I just don't see that helping at all.

Speaker 1 (21:41):
I think he off you skate. If you're worried about
Kegan Murray's place in the offense now, I think that
he would only come like presumably Malik Monk would be
going out as part of a sign and trade. But
I don't I really think that this. I don't want
to use the word ruins. But like if you were
hoping for Keigan Murray to make strides on the offensive end,
I think adding Johnathan Kaminga onto a team with that'll
still have to Roseen Levin and I just use a
bonus as someone who can elevate the play of otherstuf.

(22:02):
But like just all of those guys together, Chick and
Murray's role is going to become even more opaque.

Speaker 2 (22:08):
Right, I mean, if you wanted to, I would be
more amenable to Kaminga on the Kings. If DeRozan and
Levigne weren't there, and then you could be like, let's
just see what Murray and Kaminga can be as like
these are our big these are our combo forwards going forward.
We'll put the ball in Kaminga's hands and just kind
of see what happens, and then maybe Murray moves. You know,

(22:29):
isn't so far down the pecking order just because you've
gotten rid of a couple of high usage scorers. So
uh yeah, both Yeah, insert more stake pulls west. That's
what it is they have to trade for.

Speaker 1 (22:40):
What do they get this year? Though? Is it going
to be Patrick Williams or Nicola Vucevic?

Speaker 2 (22:45):
I mean, maybe they figure out a way to fire
an offer sheet at Josh Giddy And.

Speaker 1 (22:48):
Just great call from Zach Holland said, didn't Sabona say
something about wanting a point guard? Fuck that, let's over
baber Kaminga. That is like what he asked for, right,
He did mention that they needed a point guard, and
that like den, I guess Dennis Shruter is a point guard.
But it's just I don't know, I don't trust him
to run your half court offense against like really good defenses,

(23:09):
and just his mindset sometimes if it like there's gonna
be a ton of I think overlap in Sacramento. And
I'm not saying go out and go all in on
a point, but I just they have a bunch of
to me, there's aside from some bonus, is still their
best playmaker to me, and it's not even close. They
don't have any from the perimeter spots. Do they even

(23:29):
have like this' is probably an insult in Martin Ros.
They have like maybe one B plus passer from like
there's no a passers in the perimeter spots right now.

Speaker 2 (23:37):
No, I mean monk Monk had a moment there where
I think he had a great, like a super high
assist rate on drives and he was just piling that
up playing crunch time minutes. That might have been two
years ago now I can't even remember. But yeah, he's not.
He's not the guy that's like I mean, we're spoiled
seeing guys like Haliburton in the playoffs. But the guy
like manipulating the defense to make like the wrong pass

(23:58):
the right one, like he's monk Unk will beat his
guy and see the strong side corner shooter open. But
or like maybe a drop off pass to the roller,
but like he's not he's not like a bend the
defense with your brain kind of pastor. And those guys
are rare, but the Kings definitely don't have.

Speaker 1 (24:13):
So the final team here, can I take a guess
as to who you have and then who I was
going to advocate to be here? Yes, it is the
Pelicans and they should be at the bottom of this tier.

Speaker 2 (24:23):
I have no argument against that. Well, here's the argument.

Speaker 1 (24:27):
You can be an argument for having them up a
tier like you initially did.

Speaker 2 (24:31):
No. Well, yeah, so the argument for either moving them
to the top of this tier, which doesn't really matter,
or having them up one is essentially like, there's a
healthy version of this team whose offense is like pretty awesome.
If like somehow Jordan Poole and Trey Murphy and Zion
like work well together, there's a lot of punch there.

(24:53):
And then if Herb Jones is healthy, maybe you get
some defense. We don't love the center position because Kevon
Looney and Zion or or I just don't see how
that works. And then Eve mecI is a nice player,
but I just I'm not seeing him being a massive offensive. Plus,
you're not gonna have the John Saint Murray for I
don't know, do we have reports on that most of

(25:14):
the year.

Speaker 1 (25:14):
Probably, I mean I think, well, and yeah, they have
no in they have no incentive to be worse. So
if he's ready to come back, you might as well
bring him.

Speaker 2 (25:19):
Back, right, So that's part of That's the other part
of the argument is they did trade that pickaway and
what I think everyone agrees was the stupidest.

Speaker 1 (25:26):
Movie, which is, can I say one thing about that?
There's no reason to steer into right, You're correct, and
I think it was a terrible move. Still, it's a
bummer because, just as someone who doesn't cover the draft
guys much until they come out of the draft, I
think Derek Queen is going to be fantastic, but I
don't know what he needs to be out of the
gate for that trade to make any sort of sense. Still,
which is, and I also don't, to kind of add

(25:48):
to what you were saying, I don't know what the
theory of him and Zion together is, and like, you
can't play two of them with a like unless there's
a floor stretching big there that they haven't acquired yet,
like that, what does the defense look like? If it's
Zion On and Derek Queen as your front court, so
to have like what might be your best prospect now
because Trey Murphy's graduated from the prospect uh, and yeah,

(26:09):
he's just the right and like I officially view Derek
Queen as the higher end prospect than Jeremiah Fears, which
is funny because just to where they were drafted, Like
if your best most important prospect doesn't fit with your
best player, I don't I don't know how to square
all that away. And maybe there's just maybe there are
things Willie Green and the Pelicans will do that I
just can't envision right now. But I was kind of

(26:30):
surprised that you because presumably unless you you know what
honestly would have been the most I thought this was
the case you were gonna make, because I tried to
sit here and think about, well, what what is he
thinking here? Was I thought you were gonna say, well,
they're just not gonna play Jeremiah Fears and Derek Queen
that much, because that might be the pathway to that
because rookies just go through growing pains and just you
have Jordan Poole, so there's like some him and Jeremiah

(26:52):
fears together can be weird. I assume you're not gonna
play them together all that much, so I don't like
there's a chance. I think the Pelicans are probably gonna
be closer by the end of the season to the
Jazz is tier. Then they won't be to tearc.

Speaker 2 (27:05):
Totally totally on the table. Like if Zion misses time,
which we should say when he misses time, they're going
to be drawing dead most nights. So yeah, like the
downside is jazz level probably also, just like you sort
of now there's the wild card of like what what
else might this front office do?

Speaker 1 (27:25):
You know, like what Welch Troy Reavers had interested in
the past, and that could probably like we'll figure figure
it out.

Speaker 2 (27:32):
Yeah, So just to jump back to the Queen, it
sucks whenever a player is in the position Derek Queen
is in where it's like, well, you have to justify
some guys in suits, dumb decision. You didn't ask for this,
but here you are. I think even if he is,
like if he's the best player in this draft class,
I'm still not going to give the Pelicans a pass

(27:53):
because you just take him over. Jeremiah Fears. They they
broadcast that we think Jeremiah Fears is a bet, so
you better prospect. We took him six spots ahead of
Derek Queen, So like you don't get to say, oh,
we knew Queen was this all along? No, you like
you liked him clearly because you traded stupid stuff to
move up, but ten spots.

Speaker 1 (28:13):
If Derek Queen becomes great, it's so funny too. It
wasn't just like an extra pick ten spots.

Speaker 2 (28:17):
It was to move up ten spots. Take take Queen
where you took Fears if you think he's that great,
and hold on to that twenty six first, and maybe
Fears falls to you and maybe you can give up
less to get Fears at thirteen or whatever, like you.

Speaker 1 (28:30):
Know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (28:30):
Like it, even if Queen is great, that's not gonna
absolve the Pelicans to me, because they could have just
drafted him and not given up the pick. Yeah, anyway,
color me concerned about Jeremiah Fears hitting threes after what
I've seen in Summer League too. I know it's like
the so better passer than iakad division, so that might
be fun for them. I what is what's the number
of games Zion would have to play in for you

(28:52):
to be like, oh, this team is gonna be a.

Speaker 1 (28:54):
Lot better than expected, is it. So I'm gonna throw
a number at you. I'm gonna say Zion plays in sixty.

Speaker 2 (29:02):
I was gonna say sixty five. So we're in the
same neighborhood. Like, yeah, if he, if he's healthy and
is playing, you know, near the level where he's played
when healthy in the past, for that many games, that's
when the offense is just gonna be very good, right
like when he's on the floor. He's demonstrated that that's
what happens if he's healthy and consistently performing well. I

(29:25):
don't know what i'd put my actual over under on
games played for him is. And then that even presupposes
that you're not having injury issues elsewhere, which like given
what we know about like how this organization has handled injuries,
and it's like staffing, like this is one of the
teams you might actually want to expect like worse injury
luck than than even Trey Murphy's unmanned.

Speaker 1 (29:47):
Up a lot. That's it, by the way, that's the
other thing. And I still have hoped that, but like
I wanted to see more of Trey Murphy on the ball.
And now I look at this roster with Zion and
Queen and Jordan Poole and Jeremiah Fears, and I'm like,
all right, so probably not. I guess probably not.

Speaker 2 (30:02):
Yeah right, yeah, So that I that ends this tier
for me, unless you had somebody else that you want,
that you want to excited.

Speaker 1 (30:09):
And my veto was coming for the pen and I
was gonna know that I was gonna regret at that early.
So I'm ready to move on to your You have
the first pick in Tears.

Speaker 2 (30:15):
All right, let's so there's like I almost wanted to
mess with I did mess with this one. Actually I
moved somebody higher out of it. Uh, let's go with
the Blazers here. They're not necessarily the top team in
this year. We can sort of move things around if
we want to. Actually, they're I think they're definitely not
the top team in this year, but close enough.

Speaker 1 (30:34):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (30:35):
That's the idea of Tears, so uh ambitious going and
getting Drew Holliday, Uh, trading a younger, cheaper guy in
Anthony Simons for him.

Speaker 1 (30:43):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (30:44):
Holiday, I think that move to me mirrored and I've
written this several times. The It's not like a one
to one comparison obviously, but the move to give up
the pick that became Bub Carrington for Danny Avdia, it's like, oh,
you guys, are you maybe think you're a little farther
along than you are. And then they go on to
run late last year, so maybe they were.

Speaker 1 (31:07):
Like the first twenty one or whatever games or so.

Speaker 2 (31:11):
Adia was awesome down the stretch, so validated there. I'd
rather have Danny Avdia, I think, than Bub Carrington. I'm
ovdyapilled though, so whatever. Yeah, Pels off season throwing spaghetti.

Speaker 1 (31:23):
Have you ever done that?

Speaker 2 (31:26):
Oh? Yeah, to see if it sticks?

Speaker 1 (31:27):
Really? So I should try. I don't really eat pasta,
but you're does it work with? It has to be spaghetti.
I guess there canna be any pasta.

Speaker 2 (31:35):
I think you. I think the spaghetti probably sticks better
than like, I don't know, a ravioli.

Speaker 1 (31:42):
There's like cheese, because I'm throwing the ravioli at it. Okay.

Speaker 2 (31:45):
There's also other ways to tell if your pasta is
done that don't involve no I want.

Speaker 1 (31:49):
I want to try this now?

Speaker 2 (31:52):
Yeah? Do it? Pelicans are doing it? Yeah? I don't know,
I like the Blazers a lot, and I think a
lot hinges on how much better or to shade and
sharp get clinging? Uh, it's too moni kamaraw Really this
guy if he is like man, you're you're set at
forwards with him and Abdia and just is Scoot gonna
take another step? I think there's enough reasons to expect

(32:15):
improvement in house. Plus you had holiday. Uh that like
this is the Blazers and the teams in this tier
are very much like I don't expect the top six finish,
but like that's that's on the table if everything breaks
right and you get you know, some bad luck for
a couple of other teams, do you guess?

Speaker 1 (32:34):
And so some things that I would add to the
so the I'm all over on the pronunciation. I like
that they're trying to call him young handsome for Yon Hansom,
Yeah I heard that.

Speaker 2 (32:47):
So that's my favorite.

Speaker 1 (32:48):
That's handsome is a great Do you think that there's
room just for sint We're really going off the rails.
Thank you Blazers for a couple of tangents. Uh, they
like should the syntax be young and handsome or should
it just be young?

Speaker 2 (32:58):
Handsome, young handsome. It's like it's like a cool It's
like young Jezy, except it's young handsome. It's like, that's
a great rap.

Speaker 1 (33:06):
He's really like watching him. It's just like what if
Zach Edy was Doma Sabonis. That's the vibes I get
from him. I know everyone's to compare him to Yo Kitchen.
I just don't like that's just yeah, feels like a
little too that's just a little too far. I feel like,
what if zach Edy was Domasa Bonis is like totally fair.
That's not increasing expectations. What's interesting about this team is

(33:27):
I could see it going in either direction because like
there's a chance of just not as good last year,
especially if some of the West is just like healthier.
Like even if it's just oh there's not there's not
a different maybe top six or eight, but it's also
those top six are eight could just be a lot
better than they were last year. When you look at Denver,
maybe Minnesota gets a little bit of Houston is certainly
somehow better after finishing second last year. Memphis could be healthier.

(33:50):
I think the defense should still be pretty terrifying. That
what I also, I'm a big believer in Tamani Kamara
the defense with him, Denny Avia, Donovan Klinging, having a
bunch of those guys. I'm also looking at this roster though,
and like my got we know where some of the
shooting's gonna come from in twenty twenty six, twenty twenty
seven thanks to Dame coming back. I'd like that's another

(34:10):
thing that kind of telegraphs even if you think the
Blazers are okay, not being great this year, like you
now now you've decided, oh, we're gonna be really good
assuming Dame is there by twenty twenty six, Zach says
in the chat, I think this Blazer's team showed last year.
Uh and we showed flashes last year. We do not
think they get anything out of an injured and rehabilitation

(34:30):
Damien hanging around out the facilities. I you know what,
this is what I was gonna bring up. What does
this say about how they feel about Scoot. I'm not
saying they're gonna turn around and trade him right now,
but you already have Denny Avvias soaking up touches. Scoot
has spent most of his first two years coming off
the bench and is like Let's assume that Damian Lillard's

(34:51):
going to play for this he has a no trade clause.
Let's assume he's going to play for this team in
twenty twenty six twenty twenty seven. Is the vision playing
him starting him Afdia, Scoot and Shandon Sharp or one
in Shandon Sharp of and Scoot or Dame like is
one of them coming off the bench? Are you moving
Shandon Sharp or Scoot Henderson at that point. There's a

(35:11):
lot of complexities here, and they're also by the way,
I think the Dame deal as of now takes them
into the tax and so I'm looking at this team like, well,
what's the next move they're gonna make? Are they gonna
dump Matisse Thible somehow? Are they gonna get rid of
Jeremy Grant. What I'm most encouraged by, though, is that
the reason they were good last year is the young players,

(35:32):
or they're let's say the bigger picture players, because not
all of them are super young. It wasn't because oh,
DeAndre Ayton was balling, or like, look at what Jeremy
Grant like couldn't hit a two pointer to save his
life at one point. So that's super encouraging. I don't
I still don't understand, like what philosophy Chauncey Phillips runs
on the offensive side of the ball. And to finish

(35:53):
with my opening point was, well, like, where's the shooting
coming from on this roster? This season? You got going
from Anthony Simon's to Drew Holliday who that's the other
name too, is would you even bet on Drew Holliday
finishing the season on this roster if you know that
Dame is in the pipeline? I think that's a really
good story. It just adds layers of complexity and pressure

(36:13):
to some of the developmental projects going on here.

Speaker 2 (36:17):
Yeah, I agree with that. I think that the Dame
thing is just like, from a sentimental standpoint, I'm one
hundred percent on board. And my first thought when it
happened was basically like, oh, I wonder if this is
him conceding that these are going to be the last
three years of his career and he just wants to
finish them in a place that he loves, and maybe
he's not gonna play much at all because he's gonna

(36:39):
miss all of this year and he's gonna be a
year older and probably not fully recovered from the Achilles
the year after that, and so, like, I think you
have to think. I think it's right to ask the
question about like down the line, are we just getting
in the way of Scoot, like just because Dame it's
Damian Lillard and we have to start him and play
him a bunch. I guess I'm just not that concerned

(37:00):
with this yet because we're talking about something that's over
a year away and knows what this roster will look
like by then. I just think the defense is gonna
be awesome. The shooting is a problem, Like Sharp has
to be better, Scoot has to be better, Avdia and
Kamara I have to be better or at least more consistent.
But but I I think I just like the idea.
I feel stable with this team because I think the

(37:21):
defense is just gonna be good and then the offense
probably not, but I don't know there's upside. So it's
I was kind of struck by how much I like
this team and how low down in the tiers we
have it. You know that that just speaks to the
west Side.

Speaker 1 (37:34):
Yes, as star Vellie says, and that I really hope
they find success with Day would be a great story.
I mean, they're just sup. They're super interesting both this
season and moving forward. It's with or without him. I
just I haven't looked at win totals. I know they're released,
and you and I don't typically do those until just
before the season starts. Like, if you had to pick
right now, like what would like what do you view

(37:55):
this team ceiling as? Assuming there's no other It feels
like there's gonna be maybe some bookkeeping moves or all though,
maybe able to flip mattistaible for a shooter or Jeremy
Grant into someone who's more of a shooter. I don't know,
but it doesn't feel like there's gonna be anything monumental happening.

Speaker 2 (38:07):
Here, right. I think the steiling can't be like fifty,
but I think mid to high forties is possible. Like you,
you know, the Rockets are an imperfect comparison, but a
jump similar to that like just happened. That jump just happened.
So I think it's it's okay to say, like, well,

(38:29):
maybe the Blazers might be the team that has enjoys
a similar leap.

Speaker 1 (38:34):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (38:34):
I yeah, I think we've went into this saying like
I don't know. If they're the sixth seed, that's that's
not a crazy it's surprising, but it's not totally unforeseeable
if a few things break in their favor.

Speaker 1 (38:46):
Next team I'm gonna go with, and I'm going to
put them in front of the Blazers. I have the Lakers.
I don't know what to make of them, and I
think some people have been critical of what we've said
where we've we've been critical of their offseason. I still
don't love it. Where they asked, well, what were they
supposed to do? And my general response has been, will
not let Dori and Veinny Smith walk for nothing on

(39:07):
a deal that fits with your twenty twenty seven capspace plans.
Maybe he just wanted to leave, though, Is there any
chance that were over indexing on they didn't make this
big splash and under indexing on like Luca will probably
be better because he just wasn't Luca last season? And
that are we somehow too low? Are the Lakers somehow underrated?

Speaker 2 (39:25):
Grant Dan, I'm gonna exercise my veto in answer to
your question, and I'm gonna move the Lakers up.

Speaker 1 (39:33):
But oh, I did not see that coming.

Speaker 2 (39:36):
You're such a homer, sorry to burn it. That was
my other change. I had them down in this same
tier with the Blazers and what will now be three
other teams. I think here's here's the case. You laid
out a lot of it. They won fifty games last year.
You could argue that the additions of DeAndre Ayton and
Jake Lauravia. In fact, I will just say I think

(39:57):
it's I think there. I think I believe that the
editions of Ayton and la Ravia could offset uh Dorian
Finney Smith's departure. You like, that's on balance, that might
be a talent upgrade, especially since the guy Ayton is
replacing Jackson Hayes, who's back was just like awful, unplayable,
so and Ayden. We don't love Ayton, but like, I

(40:19):
think I think he's better than Jackson Hayes and and
maybe better in ways that really do get maximized by
Luka Doncic, who, like, I'm real uncomfortable making this prediction,
but I gotta believe that this year, at least, he
has to listen to all the criticism and take to
heart the reasons that Dallas traded him. He's got to

(40:41):
have a great year. I just like, doesn't that seem
likely if and if he doesn't, then we got to
just cut bait. Yeah, if you're not motivated now, I
mean that just just turns upside down everything I thought
about the league. So and I think it's really like

(41:01):
I forgot they won so many games last year with
a major in season trade Luca not being very good.
So I think I think I have them in a
tier that I'm more comfortable with one up. So did
any of that make a dent? Because you were gonna
at least put them ahead of the Blazers in that tier,
so you clearly don't think they're the worst team in

(41:22):
the tier.

Speaker 1 (41:22):
So were we to Vito the Veto? No, No, I
won't do that because I just feel like that's not
because then we're just out of Vitos for the rest
of it. But I also I see what you're saying.
I guess am I reading too much into like what's
going on with Lebron here. And I still don't like
the offense should just be flames because look at the
way ruiy Hachima has shot the ball. You Austin Reeves

(41:44):
improved a lot both on and away from the ball.
Lebron is still man. I found the responses to some
of the trade packages we came up with sort of hysterical, where, Okay,
we might have been a little over ambitious with some
of them, but Lebron just made second team All NBA,
Like where like what wait? Like, that's why you give
up stuff is to get a player like that. Here
on a media timeline, the pairing with him and Luca

(42:04):
can be more intuitive. I don't buy into, oh, maybe
he wasn't thrilled with it becoming a lot more Luca heliocentric.
I honestly don't believe that the on court stuff is
Lebron's issue. So much is the off court power that
he has to forfeit and Luca's not taking. Like I
don't think he blames Luca for that. If anything, it's
an organizational thing. I do find it funny that his

(42:26):
campus kind of like, whoa, why would anyone think that
he's asking to be traded? Uh? Because you send out
a thanks for the Memory's post after he opted in
to a contract. That's why. So I'm just I'm like,
I don't know how to feel about this team. You
can talk to me and they have like a lot
of good players, but they still feel so I think
one of the things you have to buy into is

(42:49):
is DeAndre Ayton gonna have some type of renaissance just
because he's playing alongside people that I can get because
last year in Portland was just they didn't have the
guard play the playmaking to put their bigs and advantageous positions. DeAndre,
like DeAndre now has that. But also I know people
like oh lomb threat and like he can be that,
but like he's also likes to play inexplicably below the rim.

(43:11):
Is how it's not someone who needs to be groundbound.
It's just someone who likes like Luca might toss him
a lob, He'll come down and catch it and then
fade out into like like a twelve twelve foot turnaround.
So I just man, I'm I well, Miles Johnson says,
I'm so over the Lakers discourse. They lost in five
games in the first round and back to back seasons.

(43:32):
That still puts them in the conversation as one of
the eight best teams in the conference, though, so they
could be in the what is this the B tier?
So we're talking about them before we get to the
B tier. Which is weird. We probably should have left it.
I see, I see your case. I just feel like
when I look at the roster, too much of it
has to go right for like, like they their margin
for would you agree that their margin for error is

(43:53):
super thin here? And they're still there's they still don't
like who's their best two way player?

Speaker 2 (44:02):
Uh, it's probably isn't it just Lebron? Like if you're
talking about like when he's fully engaged.

Speaker 1 (44:08):
Maybe and that's like sort of a problem.

Speaker 2 (44:10):
So yeah, I mean second team All NBA though you
said it like that, you know, if that's your second
best player. So I was just I was trying to
really what it came down to for me is is
and And yet Miles is correct to ask because I
was about to say, Uh, he's asking how many teams
in the West have a worst bench than the Lakers?

(44:30):
Not many? The starters though, if you go Reeves, Luca, Hachimura,
Lebron and eight and like, that's pretty good. Like you,
there's enough of kind of everything there except for a
wing stopper. Finny Smith would have been nice.

Speaker 1 (44:41):
Hey they had hid.

Speaker 2 (44:42):
You know that that role? Right? Yeah? Maybe could they
look into getting him don't you think it's possible too
that like between Vanderbilt Vincent Kaliba La Revia, there's one
or two guys that emerges reliable bench players and then
you're just looking for an eighth man. It's you know,
I don't think.

Speaker 1 (44:59):
It's that five years ago, like i'd probably feel a
lot better about Sure.

Speaker 2 (45:03):
Yeah, we're past that. Uh, I was gonna say before
we move on, I just thought that the Lakers fit
better next to the teams I have in that B tier,
which we will get to eventually. Then it then they
did with the other which there'll be a total of
four now in the C tier. So you bump I'm
gonna throw im.

Speaker 1 (45:22):
Sorry you were talking about the See I didn't bump them.

Speaker 2 (45:25):
I bumped the Pelicans down and the Lakers up.

Speaker 1 (45:27):
Basically, I thought you were saying you had four teams
to be, which would have meant that you added another
team to be. So I was fascinated. Who that was? No?

Speaker 2 (45:33):
Just three? Just three? And b uh So to get
back to C. We have the Blazers there, I'm gonna
throw the Spurs as another team in that tier. Have
to acknowledge, Uh do it? Yes, I do have them
head of the Blazers. For what it's worth, it's when
Min Yama, it's Deerren Fox. I think maybe has now
become underrated. We've we've really swung back and forth a

(45:55):
lot there. I don't know, maybe he's properly rated, but
I think if the basics of it are, if wom
Minyamba is one of the five best players in the league,
which I think you could argue that he was until
he got hurt, he was on a lot of first
team All NBA ballots, or at least in consideration maybe
the first cut to the second team. Then not a
lot else has to go right for them to at
least belong in this tier and maybe have a reason

(46:18):
to move up. So you're not getting a bunch of,
you know, winning driving play from Harper from Castle. We
both like Vassell. Harrison Barnes is a solid vet. Luke
Cornett the free agent acquisition gives him the best backup
guy to Wemby they've had upfront basically ever, shouts out
to Zach Collins. There's just kind of enough here too.

(46:40):
They feel like they belong in the Blazers tier and
they have a lot of upside. Similarly, but it just
comes from Wembenyama because I don't see Castle or Harper
like sew him making some kind of leap necessarily, it's
just Wemby.

Speaker 1 (46:52):
Which I think this is probably right for them, and
it's if you want to. Some people might quibble over
Webby coming off the blood clot with the that look like,
is he gonna be someone who ends up missing time?
He's been cleared. I think that's positive. I keep coming
back to they were a plus two point three points
per one hundred posessions with him on the floor last year,
and he played almost thirty two hundred possessions. Who was

(47:13):
their second best player, trade John And that's like, so
now it's Daron Fox and they weren't great together, but
they didn't play a ton together because of the Wemby
injury and then Fox had his own injury. I think
he's gonna be someone who winds up. I've always been higher,
you know, on consensus on Fox's jumper, but I do
have there does feel like there's real downside here independent

(47:36):
of Wemby, right, like getting injured or missing time. Because
I know people say, oh, like you're overthinking, like the
Dylan Harper, the Aaron Fox, Steph Castle fit and maybe
we are, but like you are heavily invested in two
of these youngsters, Castle and Harper who are not done
developing and with those learning like no one has the

(47:57):
learning curve of Wemby where it's he does a lot
of stuff wrong, but he might just win MVP anyway,
Like that's like that's that's a one of one learning curve.
And so I think that even if you're high on
them for the future, I do Zach in a chat,
doesn't matter when betrayed with Buddhist monks, everyone is unnoticed.
So I like it's they have real upside, but they

(48:19):
like it, doesn't it feel like they might be the
teams with one of the higher ranges of outcomes to
where like if you wanted to make a case Wenby's
totally healthy, Fox is an all NBA type player, Yeah,
you could probably put them a is ambitious, but like
a B tier. But if things if they really lean
into like, no, we still need to see what we
have in so hand. We still need to really figure
out like the on ball and off ball dynamics of Dylan,

(48:40):
Harper and Castle. And I think by the way, I
I know like in what little we saw of him
in summer League. I really think Dylan Harper is gonna
figure out how to move away from the ball effectively,
and so that gives me more hope than I had
for this sort of grouping. But I still think that
they're going to be too reliant on their front court players,
Like they're big specifically to space, and I'd like to

(49:00):
see more of it coming from the perimeter. I honestly
think Devin Vescelles feels like a sneaky important player, like
relative to the entire NBA this coming year.

Speaker 2 (49:11):
Yeah, I think that's right. I don't know how much
I want to agree and say they have a fairly
high variance, like outside of Wemby, but it's almost like
they can control it to some extent just by virtue
of how much time on the ball they give Harper
and Castle versus Fox, because you can kind of minimize
those guys and then you'll limit the mistakes and you

(49:33):
can trot out, you know, if it's Fox, the cell Barns,
whoever else and Wemby, Like that's a pretty solid two
way group that like you know, is not it has
less variance, I guess, is what I'm saying Cornett's in
the rotation and they're just like there's a steadiness there.
But if you then if you bump up the minutes
and usage of Castle and Harper, then the mistakes come.

(49:57):
Then the then the bad quarters come where they can't
get into the off and you know, like they can
kind of choose which way they want to go just
based on who they play, and that's just going to
be a balancing act I think all year, unless something
crazy happens with Fox and he, you know, gets no extension,
and then they all think about moving him, which wouldn't bekaze.

Speaker 1 (50:13):
So we have a question from Miles in the chat,
what percentage chance would you put on a Fox trade
pre deadline? I go like twenty five percent. And doesn't
that come back because if he gets extended, he can't
be traded for six months. And so if I'm well,
assuming he gets more than a five percent raise, for
anyone who cares about that minutia, if I'm him, I'm pulling.
If they're offering the extension, I'm pulling the lowry market

(50:34):
in And I don't even know when he's he was
I think he was eligible for it already, right, But
regardless I'm if if he's eligible for it now, I'm
waiting until I think the trade deadline's like February fifth,
So I will sign my extension in August sixth, so
that I know I can't be traded bactly six months.
And if they don't sign him to an extension, I
might peg that percentage at like fifty because that would
just say like, Okay, well what is going on here?

(50:54):
And I don't I don't think the Spurs are an
organization that would do that because they trade. He wanted
to go there, They traded for him with the they
intend to extend him. But when you ended up with
the Dylan Harper pick, you there's there has to be
discussions happening within the front office right now about this.

Speaker 2 (51:12):
I think, Like, I mean, it's just it's a business.
You know, let's trot Thatt Like, if you're the Spurs,
you have no incentive to do anything but play really
really hardball with with Fox, like you you don't have
to concede anything because you have two guys that might
just matter more to the franchise than him. It would
feel like a bad look just because like you said,

(51:34):
Fox wanted to be there. Uh, he's when it happened,
is like, well that's the second but that's the best
player Wemby's ever gonna play with. And it's just like,
well maybe not now, and especially if you consider Foxes.
We've talked about it, like just the aging curve for
a player who really depends on speed to be successful, Like,
I don't know, there's there's a chance we're at his

(51:55):
apex or beyond it already. Like there's the things that
you got to think about as the Spurs no reason
to go mac are like full years of dollars last he.

Speaker 1 (52:02):
Lost a lot of leverage though when they got number
two in the lottery, I will say, yeah, it'll be
an interesting challenge trade and there probably needs to be
other moving parts of it. De Aaron Fox or Jaalen Brown.

Speaker 2 (52:16):
I mean, Brown makes so much more sense on San
Antonio than Fox does, right, I mean like that that
might be worth it's so expensive though, Yeah, I think
the stores.

Speaker 1 (52:26):
Are probably cheap enough for a little bit where you
don't mind the next two years of Jaylen Brown's contract,
which might make it more feasible we have anything else
on the Spurs.

Speaker 2 (52:35):
No, I think we should move on.

Speaker 1 (52:37):
Put it's my turn writer, did I add to Spurs?

Speaker 2 (52:39):
No?

Speaker 1 (52:39):
You added the Spurs. Yeah, I'm going to put I'm
gonna put the Grizzlies. I'm gonna put them ahead of
the Blazers, but behind the Spurs. Do you have them
in this tier?

Speaker 2 (52:50):
I do have them in this tier, and I actually
have them. I have them ahead of the Spurs. But
I don't think that's releve That doesn't matter. It's close
enough to where I live.

Speaker 1 (53:00):
I just don't trust this team even sorta like I haven't.
I'm I always get queasy when winning teams or teams
that are trying to win go to renegotiate and extend route.
I understand the logic here, but they also the Desmond
Baine trade, So you lost your second best score, your
best shooter. H have they got there? They're also and

(53:22):
he didn't play in summer League. I really wanted to
see him, but he was dealing with that shoulder injury.
They kind of have a lot riding on Cedric Coward
being just good off rip. He need to be good,
and that's just it's an uncomfortable and you're dealing with
like a bunch of front court. You decided to trade
away Jay Huff and then you have the Zach Edy injury.
What is he gonna is even gonna be available to
start the season. I think they said he would, but
what does he look like coming off the injury? Brand

(53:43):
Clark coming off another injury? Just Jared Jackson Junior.

Speaker 2 (53:48):
Yeah, I was gonna say, that's absurd one.

Speaker 1 (53:50):
I like, I don't know, Like you could probably talk
me being like at the bottom of this teer John Morant, Grant,
hold on to your seat. There's a chance he miss
his time. There's it's a there's a chance. I don't
know what. I don't know what to make of them.
I think that like there's a chance like they could
be I don't if you put them in the playoffs,
I don't know who's the opponent in the first round

(54:11):
they could face that would make me favor them. So
I'll say that right off the bat, there's a chance,
I could they win a lot of regular season games
and this ends up looking egregiously low. But I'm just
they feel two house of cards e for a team
that's and I like, I understand the value coming back
in the Desmond Bain trade, but then when you go
get like it, I don't know what. I don't know
what they're doing. I guess my point it's just.

Speaker 2 (54:31):
Like, yeah, I mean, part of it is, like I think,
from their perspective, the Baine trade is one you just
say yes to just because of the first round capital
come in their way, even if a lot of it's
not going to be super high value. They already flipped
some of that. Uh, but just talent and talent out
Bain gone, Canard gone, Huff gone, Cole Anthony sort of

(54:54):
was never there, and you're adding KCP ty Jerome Jock Landale.
I think they're worse just from a pure talent perspective,
and then you're having to and like that. The injury
questions are really where it's at because you listed them
all like basically everybody who matters for them, like other
than like Jalen Wells, although he got hurt at the
end of last year. So like so many guys at

(55:15):
the high end of the rotation have massive injury and
availability question and you just can't really, you can't move
them higher. You can't. They can't be in the next tier.
To me, even while acknowledging like you said that, yeah,
if they do get good health, then sure like they
could win fifty games like that's I could totally see
that they've done it before with mostly these same guys,

(55:36):
but it's at this point you kind of can't count
on that out.

Speaker 1 (55:39):
No, And also just like the Cole Anthony stuff, So
we're just we're cool with the team, you know, like
a team that's trying to win paying someone what did
he give back two million or something? So just ten
million bucks to not play like, we're just we're cool
with that. I just the mode of operations here, just
to like, I don't know, retain talent, but you also
shed it. And then you picked up Cedric Coward. I

(56:01):
I don't know what and I don't even know you
look at the roster. I think you say they'll probably
be better on defense than offense, right, but I'm not
prepared to guarantee it anymore. I love Jayon Wells too, hind.
I think he's I think he should have run Rookie
of the Year personally, but neither here or there.

Speaker 2 (56:15):
Yeah, all right, let's uh. I have one more team
in this tier and it is the Dallas Mavericks.

Speaker 1 (56:21):
Where do you want to put them?

Speaker 2 (56:24):
I think I want to put him at.

Speaker 1 (56:26):
The top, they're like, they're kind of the fun, kind
of confusing.

Speaker 2 (56:30):
Right, So just just to recap, like not actually a
lot of activity. I guess they did get some guy
at the top of the draft. Can't remember his name.
They got d'An Angela Russell on one of the best
deals for a player that neither of us really love
of the offseason. They Kyrie Irving signed to what I

(56:51):
felt like was a below market extension. But he's I
don't know how much he's gonna help this year. I
would anticipate, like very little. Do you think he plays.

Speaker 1 (57:00):
Like at the start of twenty twenty six or before.
If he's back before the All Star Break, I'd be
pretty surprised.

Speaker 2 (57:07):
I had been sort of writing off the year just entirely,
when that didn't mean he wasn't gonna play at all.
But I've just figured like, once he's back, you're gonna
get some some lesser version of him for however long
he plays this year. All Star breaks a good a
good cutoff, Like if he's playing before that, I would
be very surprised. So that's like, what do you do

(57:30):
with this team? Because they have the big man glutt
which is maybe being simplified by Derek Lively's hurt again
and had to have another operation. So like maybe that
sorts itself out. That's not a good outcome that that,
like your logjam is less jammy because one of the
most important guys in it got hurt again. You have Davis,
you have Gafford. I think that the center, the front
court looks really good. It's a question of the playmaking,

(57:53):
which Russell's gonna be Like, okay, at I think, and
then again Irving, I don't ex lot out of this.
Just this team just feels like it has enough talent
across the board to be Again, these are all teams
I think in general we could imagine finishing above the
play in but it's not likely. I don't know, is

(58:14):
what I'd say.

Speaker 1 (58:14):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (58:14):
What do you think about the maus? I find them
confusing too.

Speaker 1 (58:17):
I have a tough time envisioning them being really good
on offense because Anthony Davis, whether he's playing power forwarder center,
is going to be at his best if you have
someone to get him the ball Cooper flag. It's clear
based off Summer League, and Jason Kidds said this beforehand,
they're gonna put the ball in his hand and have
him run things, and like it looked good at points,
but like just between the handle and even the stamina

(58:37):
where it felt like he wasn't used to exerting as
all that energy on offense. I have questions and then like, okay,
Deandrel Russell's fine until Kyrie comes back. You know, you
talk about their big man like Daniel gafferd Derek Lively
when he's healthy. Those guys on offense, their value is
predicated on having someone else get them the ball and
to be in that situation with if they're planning on
playing huge, you're presumably gonna be in that situation where

(59:01):
two of the players on the floor at least, Like
that's how much of their productivity is to and like,
yeah they'll have maybe they'll have like PJ. Washington's side
up to the floor in Naji Marshall. So there's that,
and look Naji Marshall's drives last year we saw PJ.
Washington punish some mismatches. I think they should be really
good on defense. I think look Cooper flag, not a
lot we keep saying, not a lot, a lot of rot.

(59:22):
We keep saying, not a lot of rookies in the
past have been good on defense, and I feel like
there's just this trend where younger guys are coming in
and like Evan Mobley and look at what John Wells
was able to do last year. Wemby of course is
another example. I think he's gonna be really good defensively
right out of the gate. And so you have him
and you're just huge. You're still huge, and honestly, you're
probably even bigger without Kyrie just because Danel Russell iss

(59:44):
gonna be a little bigger than him if he's your
point guy. It's just the offense for me. So I mean,
like the three biggest questions are what does Cooper flag
look like on offense? What is the over arching reach
of the offense without Kyrie? And then this one from
the chat grant, what's also the over under the number
of games that Anthony Davis plays that he always just
he's has there ever been anyone who just didn't have

(01:00:05):
a chronic injury. He just gets injured all the time,
like more than he is, right.

Speaker 2 (01:00:09):
Yeah, fifty five fifty five is a good number. I mean,
that's why the MAVs just can't be in the next
tier if Irving were healthy, I think it's a much
more interesting conversation. I think I probably would have them generational.

Speaker 1 (01:00:22):
Hater if Irving's healthy, had probably like or fifty five
win ceiling, but a twenty five win floor. That might
maybe they're the team with the highest range of outcomes
in the West.

Speaker 2 (01:00:33):
I mean again, it's I think it's limited a little
bit by Irving. They could, they could, maybe they look
like a fifty five win team at the end of
the season, as Irving is like rounding into form, But
I don't think over the course of the year they
can quite get there. Although like there's a bunch of
guys just looking down the roster, like Max Christie. Somebody
in the chat was mentioning, like, yeah, Mel mentioned Mac.

(01:00:56):
I like Christy. He can defend and is a serious guy.
Like I like Christy a lot too between him, Klay Thompson, PJ. Washington.
You've got Naji Marshall. You've got like, I mean some
legit like wing forward combo options in addition to your
giant front line. So like, as we talk about this more,

(01:01:16):
doesn't it feel like D'Angel Russell, like you mentioned the
cell as like a huge swing guy, like doesn't D'Angel
Russell like kind of determine a lot for this team
because nobody else is really gonna consistently playmake I don't think.

Speaker 1 (01:01:27):
I don't think Cooper Fly has a chance of I
think I know.

Speaker 2 (01:01:31):
I mean, like I said, consistently playmake like. I think
he'll try. But it's like, even for a guy that
you know has no weaknesses, just like that's a lot
to ask in his first.

Speaker 1 (01:01:41):
Year, Like Cam Martin's healthy, I mean, between him maxical,
Like this team, is there a chance that they could
have like the second or third best defense in the
I'm just assuming, okay, so he will be number one again,
But when you just look at the personnel, especially given
how they have to play without Kyrie for so long,
isn't there a chance of just like this second third
best defensive team in the league or no.

Speaker 2 (01:02:04):
I would hesitate, just there's a chance. I just think
if you're gonna play Thompson and Russell and maybe Hardy
a lot like that, that makes it hard. But basically
everybody else can guard. So yeah, I think like, as
long as you don't have a bunch of your weak
guys out there at the same time, Ceiling's fairly high defensively,
offense is going to be a struggle. I think just
there's just not enough like ball movers, and I.

Speaker 1 (01:02:26):
Think they're in the right spot. They're in the right tier,
even if you could see them going up one or
slipping down one. But I just I think this is
the team that I'm like least confident in ranking among
all the ones that we've talked about so far.

Speaker 2 (01:02:40):
Yeah, I would agree with that. I mean, although should
it should it be the Lakers since we disagreed on them,
I'm not confident Now that wraps.

Speaker 1 (01:02:48):
The was that the C tier, so we were onto
the beatier. We already talked about the Lakers, so we
went out of because Grant use his veto. We each
have a veto. I haven't used mine yet. Is anyone
is anyone getting intrigued? Which team want to start within
the B tier? So we have three teams in this tier,
I believe I'm going to put let's put the Clippers

(01:03:09):
in here. I have them in front of the Lakers.
Do you have them in front of the Lakers as well?

Speaker 2 (01:03:13):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (01:03:13):
Yeah, there's still I mean, look, someone posted this and
it was a joke, but it's so Bradley Beal like
kind of wasn't okay in Phoenix, being like the third
option and wasn't as good or struggled to adapt, and
now he's fine, He's gonna do the same thing in
la and be okay. I'm more optimistic for a couple
of reasons. They've tried to streamline Kawhi's offensive role a bunch,

(01:03:34):
and so I think like there will be more of
those Beal type touches available to him. They also have
the defensive structure, like because Beale, would he shoot last
year from three? Was it like thirty eight percent? Or
am I totally misremembering that?

Speaker 2 (01:03:47):
No, that that's like the sneaky truth about his time
in Phoenix is he actually was pretty efficient, like relative
to Washington days.

Speaker 1 (01:03:53):
Like, I just think that he makes them a lot
better and he like he to his credit. In Phoenix,
he may have pouted or become top or been like
taunting fans with his no trade clause. Basically he kind
of showed that he would try to adapt, And so
I'm actually not worried that if they signed Chris Paul,
I'm gonna be a little bit. That's that's the thing
we're looking at her like that makes sense, but with
the Beal on the Harden of it all just seems bizarre. Also,

(01:04:14):
Chris Paul and James Harden being on the same team
again as objectively hysterical, it still sort of comes down
to how many games this Kawhi playing because I think
that he's kind of even more they've kind of maybe
he's less critical on offense, but hasn't he become more
critical on defense? Just because it seems like right now
you're putting in Beal into the rotation, John Collins is

(01:04:34):
gonna play a bunch Brook Lopez kind of slipped on
that end a little bit more, and like, how is
this team playing? I mean, like, is this gonna cut
down on playing time for Chris Dunn and Derek Jones Junior,
two of your more impactful defenders from last year. So
I think there I feel better about them. Certainly, remember
we destroyed them heading into last year and we were wrong,

(01:04:54):
and I feel better about them than maybe even how
they closed this season. There's a I'm probably gonna couch though,
or if I find myself thinking, oh, like they're the
sneaky content, like they might just be the second best
team in the West. Which is what we kind of
talked about last year. I might just reserve myself a
little bit more because now we're getting into it, right
the James Harden playoff track record? How healthy is this team?

(01:05:15):
What is Beal going to look like when the postseason
comes around. I'm it feels like there might be another
like move to be made here, but they're ultra deep.
They are built to still be really good on defense.
And I'm like, yeah, there's the age factors, but like
the clips look long in the tooth. That'll factor into
just availability for these guys. But I think like the
big key for me is just well, how well does

(01:05:37):
Kawhi played thirty seven and they won fifty? And this
team is way better than the team heading into last season?
Are they? Are? They way better?

Speaker 2 (01:05:46):
That's the kind of I put that one up there
because that's kind of where I if you're oversimplifying it
land just the Powell loss. We can debate whether Powell
this coming. Powell was better than Bill last year, will
he be better than Bill this year?

Speaker 1 (01:06:00):
Maybe?

Speaker 2 (01:06:01):
I don't know if I'm really rushing to bet on
a late career career year quite you know so quickly,
but you add Collins, you add Lopez, you add Beal,
you really are only subtracting Powell from the mix. I think,
like I do, think this team is better as long
as the age and injury stuff doesn't catch up, which
is like, okay, well that really might because because Harden

(01:06:24):
and Kawhi are who they are and Lopez is who
he is and what is he thirty seven, So like
there's real down there. There's there's like a pretty scary floor,
but it's kind of injury based, which is like, well,
that's kind of true for most teams. Yeah, I think
this team is really good. I think I have no
issue putting it at the top of the tiers so far,

(01:06:45):
certainly better than the Lakers. I think you'd never consider
moving him down, even while acknowledging that.

Speaker 1 (01:06:51):
Would be just as point out like Kawhi played in
thirty seven and they still won fifty. I'm still kind
of interesting how it all comes together, and I would
be I'd be, hey, where's the young talent. Trenton Flowers
is gonna defend his ass off, That's what that's what
Trenton Flowers does. So yeah, I think they're probably in
the right spot. I just don't and I would agree,
I'd be closer to moving them up a tier, but

(01:07:12):
I just there's so much, there's so many question marks
with and I hate boiling it down to availability because
I think the theory of the team makes sense even
if I'm not like the biggest John Collins guy. But
if you have CP three on this roster and already
James Harden like as a lob guy, John Collins being
able to do that, so and yeah, the backup center
or the backup like front court rotation being bigger and
just deeper in general, that'll go a long way. And

(01:07:35):
they are. They're probably more insulated too. If there is
a drop off from Kawhi right, maybe not in games played,
but offensively like Beal because of the self creation. I
think that's where the upgrade from Norman Powell comes the most.
And we saw Norman Powell slow down in his on
ball efficiency specifically. Is the season war on?

Speaker 2 (01:07:54):
Yeah, this team is very scary. This is it will
be it. If nothing goes crazily wrong, we'll be at
the doorstep of the playoffs saying, like you know, nobody
wants to play, There'll be the Clippers, just like it
was last year.

Speaker 1 (01:08:05):
Do you want to pick the next team for them.

Speaker 2 (01:08:07):
I gotta add, okay, Yeah, one more team in this tier.
It is the Warriors. Just before I start speaking, are
you okay with them in this tier? Do they belong
one down?

Speaker 1 (01:08:17):
I think? I think if you're put the Lakers in
this tier, I'm okay with the Warriors in this tier?
Where do you have them?

Speaker 2 (01:08:25):
I have them between the Lakers and Clippers? So behind
the Yeah, there you go. What do you think about that?

Speaker 1 (01:08:31):
Is that your justification? Look, they feel it's kind of
a similar case to the Lakers, and I probably I
do feel better about the top of their roster overall.
But you're also kind of and maybe it's not similar
to the Lakers. It's like they're in between the Lakers
and the Clippers. So this is fitting. There's just a
lot kind of riding on three older dudes remaining ultra
healthy and one of them just can't miss more than

(01:08:53):
ten games or the Warriors are cooked and I'm talking
about Steph Curry. Basically, I don't know how like they've
done nothing this offseason. And if we assume that, I'm
kind of still penciling in Al Horford for Golden State,
which I I love by the way. I know he's old,
but he could he he could still play and he
fits like how they want to run their team, especially

(01:09:14):
on offense. I just don't the Jonathan Kaminga situation makes
me uneasy if he's back, because it's is he playing
for his next contract at that point? Is he willing
to fit into the larger ecosystem of the offense. Can
he defend better? I thought nikaias Duncan made a great
point on the low post to where it's you can
point to Jonathan Kaminga's stats in the games in which

(01:09:36):
he logs over thirty minutes, they're great. It's like over
twenty points sufficient scoring. He would have more of those
games under his belt. I think if he defended better
or maybe even passed better as well. But it's like you,
if you throw Jonathan Kaminga back onto this team, like
I do you lose something trying to fit him in
where it's this talented player, but it's a square peg,
round hole situation.

Speaker 2 (01:09:57):
The situation you're describing is just not any di Then
it's been for like two plus years with him, right,
like if he's back, Like, yeah, you'll be right to
say I bet he's kind of annoyed. I'll bet he's
gonna get frustrated when they don't give him the opportunity
to just control an offense that has Steph Curry and
Jimmy Butler in it. Like, yeah, that that's been the dynamic,

(01:10:18):
and I think the locker room is full of enough
vets and just like I don't know, cultural stability where
it's like Jonathan Kaminga can't like wreck this team's chemistry.
He's not important enough to really do that. Like he
might sulk, he might you know, not give good effort
when he's not guaranteed thirty plus minutes, but that's just
that's the status quo. So like, you know, I I'm

(01:10:41):
not I think I think it might be an issue
in other circumstances, but if like, it's not anything different
than the Warriors have been dealing with, specifically with this
guy for a long time. So I'm not concerned about that,
I think, like you know, and whether he's back or
not honestly doesn't change my opinion on the team team
overall that much. I'm I'm definitely done. I think, you know,

(01:11:03):
with the logic of well, if Kaminga really pops this year,
we can add five more wins to the total, Like
even I've moved past that, Like I just don't think
he can do that, or we'll have the opportunity even
if he could. On this team, it's just with Steph
Butler Draymond like that. If they're healthy, this team is
and they showed it, like when those guys were all
together down the stretch last year, this team looked like

(01:11:25):
a top four team in the West, played like one.
The health questions are super legit, but I think you
could bank on like pajem schemes should be a little better,
Like you're gonna post what you get from Moody and
healed Post. Yeah, Quinn Post is gonna make all NBA
first team. I mean the additions of like it shouldn't
matter this much, but if they get Horford, Andy, Anthony Melton,

(01:11:47):
then it's like they absolutely there's no question they belong
in this tier. I don't know if I'd move them up,
but like they could play with the teams above them
if they get those guys and they say.

Speaker 1 (01:11:56):
I think, but they're also so It's just like we
talk about the age and the injury stuff. We saw
the limitations in the playoffs. But like in the regular season, specifically,
having Jimmy Butler is huge because it does give you
a margin for error without Steph, and so I'm not
as worried about like the age and just that aspect
of it. If it happens in the postseason, that's where
you Yeah, okay, but when you look at this team,

(01:12:17):
whether you're a fan looking at as an adalyst, if
you're actually in on winning the title this year, rather
than just trying to be quality for Steph's twilight, they
need to do something else other than just sign al Horford,
bring back Kuminga, and get Danthony Milton right, Like, this
is not like could this team win the entire thing
assuming those moves when I don't again, three of them

(01:12:38):
are not done yet.

Speaker 2 (01:12:41):
I think, yeah, you can't say yes because the Rockets
are a deeply flawed team and they barely could beat
the Rockets. And then the Wolve series is like, well
when STEP's hurt, like, what are what's the point of
even watching anymore? Yeah, I think you're right that they
aren't good. They aren't good enough just talent wise, probably
like if everybody's healthy, I guess you could still say,

(01:13:01):
like Oh, they can kind of play with anybody they have,
like given the thunder problems to the extent anybody has.
But then it comes back to if you're talking about,
like can they win a championship. I just don't think
the three old guys are gonna make it through the
entire postseason without like some kind of you know, course
altering injury or breakdown or even before that, like maybe

(01:13:21):
the injuries happened during the season and you have to
fight from the ninth seed, like and you just there's
no chance. So I just think the durability because of
the age of the most important players is an issue
you can't ignore. That's why I can't even really seriously
consider moving them up.

Speaker 1 (01:13:36):
Yeah, so I don't really have any qualms about them
being here. But it feels like the floor. It's the
same thing with all these teams in the tiers, Like
you could see the floor kind of coming out from
underneath each one of them, whether it's the Clippers, the Warriors,
or the Lakers. That does wrap it up for this
tier though, right, so we have next tier. I'm gonna
throw in there, all right, I'm gonna throw we both

(01:13:57):
have the Timberwolves in here. So they're the only team
we them ahead of anybody. I don't I don't want
to say, I don't know what to make of them.
They do feel kind of disrespected for a team that
just made consecutive Western Conference finals is not the East,
So I like, that's fascinated me. I think losing to
keep Alexander Walker, it clearly sucks. But hopefully one of

(01:14:17):
Jaalen Clark or Terron Shannon Junior hits enough of the
threes where they can book because they will replace a
lot of what he does, maybe not some of the
tangential playmaking. They do feel though, just giving the aging
curve of Mike Conley the limitations, I maybe he's gonna
continue to get better, So that's not But like you
have Julie s Rendel, you have Anthony Edwards, you still
just don't have an A plus passer, and so you

(01:14:39):
need to load up on those B level B plus passers.
They kind of need Rob Dillingham to be good this season,
but I also don't know if he's gonna get a
chance to play still, like he's looked mostly fine in
Summer League. I throw stats and not turnovers out the
redow entirely but he's got like his on ball juice
is real. I'm just curious, as do you think that

(01:14:59):
they're gonna give him like a do you know the
kind of the shot that we're expecting Reed Shepherd to
get with the Rockets this year? Do you think Dillingham
gets that where it's fifteen minutes a game on a
consistent basis.

Speaker 2 (01:15:10):
I think it's just I view him and Conley as
so linked, Like I would say, yes if Conley misses
time or just takes another incremental step backwards as the
age is aged thirty eight season, like you just you
have to anticipate he's gonna either be less available or
less effective or both. If Conley's like solid enough, then

(01:15:30):
I don't know, maybe Dillingham doesn't get quite the shot
that we might like him to, But there's also so
I don't know, it just depends on Conley. I guess
was a short answer, because like they do need what
Dillingham theoretically provides, just in terms of like he can
beat his guy and draw a second defender and make
something happen Like that's that's a skill that this offense

(01:15:52):
really needs. Even if he's great at the things he's
great at I don't know if Dillingham is the guy
that's like whipping the ball around and suddenly the Wolves
offense is like the blender, you know, the Pacers blender.
But yeah, I think you need you need playmaking from him,
You need it from Randall, you need it from de Vincenzo,
like you need Read to be a guy that's like
driving a lot and collapsing the defense that way. But

(01:16:15):
like you said it, this team made the conference finals twice.
I think we should expect Anthony Edwards to continue to improve,
and he's already like at such a high level that
improvement for him is like he's you know, you're talking
top five MVP, like for the balance, you know, the
bulk of the season. So I just like, we know
the defense should be good. It's does let me ask you, like,

(01:16:38):
does a lot of what we're discussing about the Wolves
feel really similar to what we discussed last year about
our questions and about our uncertainties and like which way
does this roster lean defense versus offense? Like not a
lot has really changed, even though Alexander Walker's gone.

Speaker 1 (01:16:52):
Yeah, we have the same questions. I think what gives
me a slightly more hope for them to at least
be better in the regular season. I think you could
reasonably say they've peaked the postseason just because they were
in the conference finals in the past two years, right,
or give me hope is like, Okay, we saw what
Julius Randall can do in this system, and like Dante
DiVincenzo has to have like a better year. That was
just like he was very up and down he did.
I think he did deal with like a lower body

(01:17:14):
injury at one point too. So I think like we
do have the same questions, but we also have like
a couple more answers, like just a little bit more
when it comes to specifically okay Dante de Evincenzo, Julius Randall.
But now you've, like you said with no, you've added
in the variable of okay, well like our Arran Shannon
Junior or and or Jalen Clark ready to do something
for you. It's weird to say that they've lost to

(01:17:36):
Kik Alexander Walker, and it's like, do we feel we
feel worse about their shooting now? Right? Like that wasn't
something that was a calling card and he hasn't necessarily
shot it well in the playoffs the past couple of
seasons all the time. That's gonna be something they have
to overcome because is that going to allow like who,
like what is there? I guess their core I guess
what helps is their core lineup remains the same. So
Anthony Edwards isn't gonna be in a worse situation, but

(01:17:57):
like he wasn't in the optimal situations last year.

Speaker 2 (01:18:02):
Yeah, I think that's definitely true. I wanted to before
we move on, hind was asking go beart trade in coming.

Speaker 1 (01:18:09):
You're not high on Joel Binger Bayringer. I can't have
the pronunciation. I'm still if you're honest French, and I
can't remember how to pronounce it already.

Speaker 2 (01:18:19):
I just think, like, doesn't that make the read contract
just like, oh okay, I get it now. Is if
you're anticipating, like, no, he's not going to be a
twenty five million dollars a year backup, he's going to
start for us eventually because we're trading Gobert at some point,
Like that makes that contract make more sense to me.
I don't know that that's just the one thing to
consider the defense though, it makes it a hell of

(01:18:40):
a lot worse like that, that would be them acknowledging
the reason we're not advancing to the finals is because
our offense just is too far behind where it needs
to be, and we'll sacrifice some defense for that. I
don't know if that'll be the right call, but you
could imagine them, you know, after two years of having
that be how things play out, just well, let's try
a different ways.

Speaker 1 (01:19:00):
They're like a team that could whether it's moving, like
do you ever even consider moving nas reed to try
and address maybe getting like a higher end for general
in here is like is there an And it's just
we don't really see the big for floor general trades.
It used to be, oh we never see big for wing,
but it's like, could you do? I feel like there's
probably not enough value for like is there like a no?
Because they love yaka Pearl, I was gonna say, like

(01:19:22):
you send Nas or Rudy Gobert toronto get a manual
quickly back or something. Is that doing anything for you?

Speaker 2 (01:19:28):
Yeah? I don't know. I did that that read contract.
I guess most teams would view him as a starter,
So it's not like a crazy thing to.

Speaker 1 (01:19:35):
Do, especially so easy to move next year specifically because
he he oh no, he didn't not he declined it.
That's right, it's part of it. He got a five
year deal. I take that back. Still, I still think
he's probably pretty easy to move. But there it's weird
because they go through stretches where their offense is like
fifth for x amount of games every year, and yet
you still can't trust it. And I'm not saying them
getting rid of or not really materially changes that it

(01:19:56):
like should make it worse, but it's just it's just
another Vrea with this team, and I'm curious to see, like,
would this be a team that you would I like, well,
they follow this through for the entire year, or if
things are just kind of not going to plan, they
would be a team that would look at mid season fireworks,
whether it's trying to tack even though it's difficult, like
giving their limitations, but that are trying to tack on,

(01:20:17):
or maybe they're getting rid of some money, because I
view them as a ladder to where it's, oh, this
would be a team where if they don't start right
like they're just they might try to course correct pretty quickly.

Speaker 2 (01:20:28):
Yeah, And what that takes the form of Randall or
Gobert or Nas getting traded, right, if you're really trying
to move a big number, that's got to be one
of those guys. Yeah, I could see that. I mean,
I just think that realistically, Like I think they're gonna
win fifty something games and they're going to be in
the top four and they'll just run into offensive issues

(01:20:48):
in the playoffs and maybe that's in the conference finals
or maybe not quite right like that, just they feel
like there's a pretty low variance for their possible outcomes,
which is different than we've been saying for a lot
have a.

Speaker 1 (01:20:59):
Lot of variations of this in the chat, and this
one's from Bertman. They might not be able to move
these guys. Who wants Julius Randall or Rudy Gobert at
this point in their careers. I get the Randall because
he's such a tough fit. I know he's younger and
he's made multiple NBA teams. I feel like I would
take on Rudy Gobert, like his contract as a player,
right as a person, we can have a different discussion,
but like that contract's not one that really phases me

(01:21:20):
over the next what is it? He is three years
left on it, like, that's not is that one you're
overly concerned about?

Speaker 2 (01:21:28):
I mean a little bit, but but for the reason being,
I'm not sure where the team is. That's saying where
a Rudy Gobert away.

Speaker 1 (01:21:38):
From Phoenix to talk themselves into it get I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 (01:21:43):
I don't know where the team is. That could rationally
say that because just like that's he he changes a
lot of what you do. And so it's not like
Gobert is additive in that like he basically guarantees your
defense will be good when he's on the floor and
sometimes great. But it's like you do change how you
play on both ends when when he's on the floor,

(01:22:04):
And it's that that to me is why he's harder
to trade as it's tricky to find the team. That's like,
we understand how we're gonna integrate him, and we super
need him, and we're willing to pay thirty five, thirty
seven thirty eight million over the next three years for
him in age thirty three, thirty four to thirty five
like seasons, Like I think he's really good and improves teams.
It's just hard to think of like who's starving for
Rudy Gobert to come at that price, and like.

Speaker 1 (01:22:27):
Would you do nas Reed and Rob Dillingham for Dearn
Foxed It makes no sense on the spurs. Dillingham doesn't
nos read fits along side't want to be like a.

Speaker 2 (01:22:38):
Uh yeah, and he doesn't. But I I don't love
the fox Edwards.

Speaker 1 (01:22:46):
And then Randall's still there. That was a bad one.
I was just like what because we're talking about, Oh,
they could use a different facilitator, but the guy to
actually move, which is ironic because I think he's the best,
like in a vacuum as a player of the three
between NOAs Reed and Rudy Gobert's value just defensively, I
like you need to like he has the least trade value,
but maybe the most on court value of that trio. Yeah,

(01:23:08):
you kind of need to move him if you want
to put like a point guard is not going to
spend a ton of time off the ball otherwise it's
you know you're looking at just like I don't know,
you're just looking at not someone who might make enough
of a difference because you don't have the assets to
go out and get a star that's gonna fit everything
that you want. Alongside Edwards.

Speaker 2 (01:23:26):
Yeah, I mean, like this won't happen for a trillion reasons.
But like Haliburton is the guy that makes the most
sense next to Edwards, like and there's not there aren't
a lot of Halliburton types Like that's just he's kind
of a one on one at the moment. All Right,
we got to add a team here, and I will
do the honors and we will now begin discussing the
Houston Rockets. Oh aware, though that's a great question. I

(01:23:49):
actually have them below the Wolves, but you're looking like
you want to put them above them, and I'm really
on the fence. You decide where they are, and I.

Speaker 1 (01:23:58):
Would put them in front of the Wolves. I think,
okay there, So I find myself they're similar to the
Nugget where I find myself having to kind of poke
holes in their offseason while also celebrating it. And I think,
you look at Houston, Kevin Rant just you make that
trade eleven times out of ten for the value that
they gave up. That Jalnge Green contract was not viewed
favorably around the league. The offense is going to be

(01:24:18):
better and spacier. I still look at it, though, and
say yes, they have shang Gun Ami Thompson will get better.
They still have Red van Vliet. But like, here's why
I'm higher on them that I probably should be. I
think that read Shepherd. It's set up. This is what
this offseason telegraphed to me. And yes, I was bound
to make this about Reed Shepherd. They're prepared for him

(01:24:39):
to play a real role, and if the way he
both defended and played on offense in Summer League is
any indication he's ready for that role? So coming in
my question is it still feels like they have a
lack like a creation deficit from the outside end, because
that's not like, that's not Kevin Durant anymore. Right, Like
we've seen him struggle at points in his last two
playoff campaigns. Leave the numbers show like he just doesn't

(01:25:01):
fare as well against pressure. Now there's some turnover issues there.
I also have questions about is he gonna be Like
what type of offense are they going to play, because
Kevin Durant wants to play like a Kevin Durant way
he can play in any way. He's one of the
most scalable superstars we've ever seen. Is he gonna be okay,
like kind of playing off the ball from Shanghun or

(01:25:21):
read Shepherd a bunch or are you gonna regress into
or default too, I should say, Oh, he's gonna spend
a lot of time on the ball, and that's how
we want to run our offense because you're gonna lose
playmaking there. I think your turnovers will go up. And yes,
Kevin Durant is still one of the best scorers in
the game. This is I hate this. I hate myself.
I loathe everything about this discussion. But does that do

(01:25:42):
you understand what I'm saying. I'm kind of twisted myself
into a pretzel here.

Speaker 2 (01:25:46):
No, So your questions are about the offense, which is
where they have to be because defensively, we know what
the Rockets are. They're gonna be awesome. If they're not
a top five defense, I would be stunned they I
do think you're right to question, like in the biggest
of big moments, like obviously, like you add Kevin Durant

(01:26:07):
to a team that needed scoring in the playoffs and like, yeah, okay,
try to do better than that, Like that's how you
can't almost like really, it's just especially if you're like
we need a guy that's been through it and not
just theoretically able to score in the post, like it's
Kevin Durant. So the offense has to be where the
questions are. I'm kind of persuaded that at everywhere but

(01:26:29):
the absolute highest levels, like we're talking conference finals or finals.
I think between the Durant addition, the Van Vliet retention,
the Shepherd like I don't know, actually like letting him
off the bench once in a while. I think Thompson
should be a little better. I think Shan Goon might
be a little better as an offensive player. Like there's

(01:26:51):
kind of enough collect Jabari Smith Junior just got paid,
like although got paid, like the Rockets tend to do
not as much as they couldn't.

Speaker 1 (01:26:58):
I think, are they going to have like the best
run of like team friendly rookie extensions like what I
just don't. I just don't.

Speaker 2 (01:27:06):
So do you see what I'm getting at?

Speaker 1 (01:27:07):
Though?

Speaker 2 (01:27:07):
Like there's there's enough reason to expect like a collective
offensive improvement that at least, like say for the regular season.
I don't really have offensive concerns for them, and probably
in the first round, depending on the opponent, probably not.
They're like a team that like wake me up in
the second round and and maybe then the issue is

(01:27:28):
like more pressing. But like I do think there's enough
bites at it between Shepherd specifically and like Thompson getting
better and Durant maybe just I don't know, like if
he's just Durant, like he doesn't need to he can
be the thirty seven year old dream doesn't have to
be twenty seventeen Durant. There's enough here offensively that I'm
not worried about it until like late May, I guess is.

Speaker 1 (01:27:50):
The way I frame it, because I'm like trying to
curtail my Read Shepherd optimism because he just might be
the answer to everything we're concerned about when you look
at having the A plus level passer who can also
score from the perimeter, off the dribble and like put
defenses in just absolute scramble mode, and he might haven't.
The good thing about having Kevin Durant is his gravitational
pull where defenses are also going to default to him.

(01:28:12):
That opens things up for everybody. So reed, Sheepherd just
might be good enough to worry even if you have
concerns before the second round about the offense. If he
pops like those concerns might evaporate. It's when you get
later into the playoffs and go up against some of
those other defenses, and at that point it's, I will,
who do you want on this team that would make
you feel good going up against Oklahoma City's defense? Is
kind of the question, right that.

Speaker 2 (01:28:34):
The other thing, too is I think we even talk
about Finny Smith really except in the context of, like Lakers,
why didn't you keep him? I think there's a chance
this defense is better, and I think there's a chance
that this team could play so even bigger than it
did during last year that.

Speaker 1 (01:28:48):
Like Shanngun together with Jabari and Durant.

Speaker 2 (01:28:50):
I mean, if you can play Kevin Durant at the two,
that's fine. Whatever. So there's a chance that they, like
however many wins they banked last year, just by being
like bigger and more physical, Like Easan's gonna play more too.
Probably you would you would assume like more there there.

Speaker 1 (01:29:07):
Are only so many minutes in a basketball game. We've
already given read Cheaperdame.

Speaker 2 (01:29:11):
And like, whe where are these minutes?

Speaker 1 (01:29:13):
Right?

Speaker 2 (01:29:13):
Where do you get the rest of them? I think
you just bench Thompson. That's makeing prove it.

Speaker 1 (01:29:17):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (01:29:18):
I just think, how are many wins they banked through
offensive rebounding or or turnover generation or whatever, like add
four to that total for this year, because I think
they could they'll be even bigger. Their nastiest defenders are
like not aging out. It's just like there will be
so many ways for them to pile up wins.

Speaker 1 (01:29:35):
Yeah, they're If they're not, I mean, if they're not
top three in the West, I think it could be
pretty surprised at this point. Like their floor feels like
four where you cant get a wild cards. I think
they're like the Clippers.

Speaker 2 (01:29:47):
Yep, I agree with that. They're really they're they're really.

Speaker 1 (01:29:50):
I'm using a veto and I am putting the Nuggets
in st here.

Speaker 2 (01:29:58):
I was thinking about a take.

Speaker 1 (01:30:01):
Did you see that coming? Giving everything that I said
about the Nuggets offseason, because it's okay to be disconnected.
I think that they did not get enough traction out
of their twenty thirty two first round pick. It's also
kind of it's weird. There feels like a disconnect between
I agree that this is one of the deepest teams
around Nikoliokic, but I also feel that Nuggets fans might
be tethering a lot of value to Bruce Brown and

(01:30:22):
Tim Hardaway Junior in the year twenty twenty five, but
they just pushed OKAC to seven games. I think while
all of basically all of okac's players are at the
age where they should continue to get better, there's still
offensive question marks there. I look at Denver, if they're
even a semblance of healthier, I still don't think that

(01:30:44):
they're built to navigate too much choppiness from a Jamal.
If he comes into camp out of shape again and
he's off to one of his trademarks thow starts, they
might tumble behind in the standings in terms of championship equity.
Though this team is really well built now like you
need contributions from I would say one of Bruce Brown
or Tim Hardaway Junior needs to hit as a signing.

(01:31:05):
And yes, Nuggets fans, I know what Bruce Brown was
during the title season. That was two years ago. Lots
of change. There have been injuries, there's been other performances
from him that, if not look so great, I could
see why people have issues. I think that the issues
they have with the Nuggets are gonna end up being wrong, though,
where I think a lot of attention is going to
be paid to. Like the defense. I came out of

(01:31:25):
the playoffs just feeling really good about the state of
their defense, as long as if Aaron Gordon has like
one leg or most of his hamstrings intact. I feel
pretty good about Denver's defense assuming yonas valan Chunas plays there.
I think you're able to buy time and space with
Yolkic on the bench during the regular season. I don't
think he's going to be as valuable in the playoffs
or even close to it. That's something to consider. I

(01:31:46):
might be a little Dayron Holmes pilled too as well.
I don't know if he could play center. I've kind
of gone back and forth whether you should be next
to a big but I really like him, so they're
deeper and if you can buy yourself time in the
regular season, that's all you need. With Jokic, because we
already saw that like that wasn't even the best version
of the Nuggets and it wasn't the best version of Okac.
I would argue Jalen Williams had what half a wrist
that he was playing on or whatever it ended up being,

(01:32:09):
but the things that they can do there's their Their
offense I think should be slightly more dynamic with the
caveat of I don't know where the the increase in
on ball dynamism is gonna come from, because I don't
think Bruce Brown can be that player. And it's just
do you think does Christian Brown scare scale up there?
I don't want to see Tim Hardaway Junior dribbling dribbling

(01:32:30):
into pull up jumpers. I also question offensively, I think
Cameron Johnson, when you look at maybe the playmaking and
the off ball movement is an upgrade over Michael Porter Junior.
On balance, I don't know how much of an upgrade
it is when you look at the rebounding, when you
look at the defensive ceilings. Everybody, I don't. I think
a lot of people say that Cam is just way
better than MPG on defense. I I don't see it.
Maybe I'll be wrong, So there's still some questions here.

(01:32:52):
But I'm also just like, Okay, see, as dominant as
they were at points, was a flog contender, and so
I think pople might want to put the rockets on
their level. I'm not I can't get there just as
as the foremost reed Shepherd fan. I'm not sure that
I could get there. But I look at this Denver
team and if they're able just to say, relatively healthy,
I think that there's a chance, like how many games

(01:33:15):
that Aaron Gordon miss last year's, we've not even seen
the peak of their defense just yet. I think the
player that I might be most interested in, to just
wrap it up before I throw it to you, is
just what is Peyton Watson's role on this team, because
that's someone who could, if he's able to hit shots,
turns the entire Again, I still don't know if it's
like in terms of just on ball dynamics, there's a
chance that they're sort of lacking there. And you could

(01:33:37):
also make the Kings like do they need another wing
type on this team or is it like more of
a backup floor general that you still want to see
them get There's still like maybe a hole that would
give you some type of unease. But man, I think
this team has the potential to be like way better
defensively than we're sort of considering at the moment.

Speaker 2 (01:33:57):
So this will mess up your time stamping, I suppose,
But like the Nuggets, being in this tier is only
surprising because I imagine a lot of people thought that
the Thunder would be in the top tier by themselves.

Speaker 1 (01:34:11):
So this is an impact what he said about the Pelicans, Derek,
Derek Queen Well underwent surgery to repair a torn scapiot
ligament and is going to miss the It's a leftarous
injury and he's gonna miss the next He'll be reevaluated
in twelve weeks. That's a bumber.

Speaker 2 (01:34:29):
Well, that is a huge bomber. And again this isn't
about Derek Queen, like, the trade is not about him.
It's about the Pelicans. Like, that's a terrible outcome for
all parties involved. Uh, the trade is no worse today
than it was when they made it, Like the process standpoint,
So just to be now the results are much worse.
The process is as bad as it could be. No,

(01:34:53):
I so we can we let's just put the Thunder
up there.

Speaker 1 (01:34:56):
Obviously, Well get my second veto is putting them in
the f tre.

Speaker 2 (01:35:00):
So I did you did you give any thought to
having the Thunder alone in a tier? Because I think
a lot of I had it there initially, and then
a lot of what you talked about with Denver specifically,
and some of the we had comments, you know, pointing
out that like Denver took them, took the Thunder to seven,
and they weren't the only team to take the Thunder
to seven. So like while the yeah, they they did,

(01:35:24):
you know, win a zillion games and they won the
title and whatever, like thought, we had thoughts about, like
are the Thunder inevitable? And they did end up winning it,
but I do think that the West is closer at
the top than then It's just not fair to have
the Thunder in their own tier. They don't think.

Speaker 1 (01:35:43):
And why this is funny because I went on the
Red Nation Hoops podcast, which is not the podcast that
it might sound like. It's a Houston Rossi podcast. Uh,
and I had the Thunder and a tier all their own,
and I had to argue me and Simon we're going
back and forth because he thinks the Rockets were closer
to them and I still don't believe that. But one
the more I sat on, I was like, his premise
for me is right. I just disagree with the team

(01:36:05):
that he thinks are on their own tier.

Speaker 2 (01:36:08):
I got you. Yeah, So the argument you would make
if you're saying the Thunder are in their own tier
relative to these other teams. And the one that kind
of convinced me until I thought about this a little
harder is that they don't really have any situations with
the top end of their roster or even like the

(01:36:29):
depth of it that you're like, oh, this is a
this is a pivot point, or this is a question
of like, yes, if if Shay gets hurt or Jalen
Williams doesn't recover from this wrisk thing, or Chet has
another catastrophic like freak accident injury, of course, but like
we've seen Jamal Murray not be healthy and be unproductive

(01:36:50):
for long stretches, like Aaron Gordon, the injuries are piling up,
like Jokicic is a year old or not concerned about
Yokics just sort of throwing everything out there. And so
like the con concerns that I would have for Denver
or the ways I could see things going wrong, there's
just more of those than I have for the Thunder.
Who I don't know, like every literally everyone could be

(01:37:10):
better other than like Alex Caruso maybe takes a step back.
So like that's the case you make for the Thunder
like deserving to be separate from everybody else here, but
like the results last year just are what they are.
The Thunder's offense kind of sucked for like a lot
of important games in the postseason, and I don't know
that there's that. They didn't really do anything to change

(01:37:32):
that other than hope that all their guys get better,
which again possibility, but like they're not. They're not like
this unbeatable juggernaut. Now watch them go be that. But
at the moment from here it does feel like Denver
because of the pedigree, because they have the best player
like that, there's enough there to make this a two
team tier. The only question is should we just lump

(01:37:53):
A and the A tier and S here together and
have the Rockets and Wolves up there with those two?

Speaker 1 (01:37:57):
Well, I can't put I wouldn't be able to put
the Wolves here. You could talk to me to the
Rockets easier, like they feel more so caught in between
B and A than in between A and SH. Just
I've man think about how many teams in the top Houston,
Minnesota and Okay, see, we just have offensive question marks
about Maybe Nico Harrison was right, grant you know what,
also it is with the Thunder. Is I So if

(01:38:18):
you were to ask me, what's more likely that there
needs to be more than two teams in this S
tier or the Thunder in a tier all their own.
I default more to the Thunder being in a tier
all their own would be more likely. I agree with
everything you said, and like they didn't make any changes,
and you also can't trust and they kind of just
prove they don't need to, like if they know what
they need in theory, but they're not gonna necessarily go

(01:38:41):
out and make these big mid season moves. At the
same time, I kind of see in the chat like, oh,
look at the non SGA minutes. Those actually kind of
remedied themselves last year. That's like, cause it feels like
we're gonna skip over the Thunder a little bit and
not talk about them because they just won the title,
that you can't not have them an S tier. But
like they when they had Jalen Williams with another big
where it was Chet or it was Isaiah Hartenstein, they

(01:39:03):
were able, Like you got to a point where you
were winning those you're winning those minutes anyway, but you
got to a point where the offense was creeping two
league average or better. And when Jalen Williams is so young,
when Chet is so young, when you could still get
someone to pop from the case and Wallace or it's
like the aj Mitchell is a player you can get better.
And so sometimes I feel like we don't consider that

(01:39:23):
the Thunder didn't make any changes. They still the same flaws.
But just as Houston has a lot of guys that
could get better, sort of the Thunder, I find I
just find the Nuggets interesting because I don't have we
even mentioned his name more than once at this point,
Joki is still the best player in the world. Yeah,
And I like, if you're gonna give him more guys
than Tim Hardaway Junior and Bruce Brown and Cam Johnson

(01:39:44):
as well, even if he's replacing a lot of what
Michael Porter Junior did that can move off the ball.
Where I find myself again, I know it's Jokic, but
I find myself worried that they're still not built for
him to not do too much, Like it still feels
like they're like too far dependent on him. A lot
of that might come back to Jamal Murray. We know
what his highs look like. The fact that he didn't

(01:40:04):
sign an extension, though, does that open the door for
things like they need to fuss and fiddle? They do
have this flexibility because of the whole point of getting
out off of Michael Porter Junior was it gave them
that other flexibility. The thing I will not hear though,
is that, well, now they can sign players who get
bought out. Who was the last buyout guy? First of all,
you don't make that case to me before they actually
signed the buyout guy. I will not listen to it.

(01:40:25):
Who's the last buyout guy to do anything meaningful in
the playoffs?

Speaker 2 (01:40:30):
I can't even begin to remember who.

Speaker 1 (01:40:33):
So I just and look even in the chat, like
just to kind of pump up Denver's cases, like NPJ
was playing on that really bummed shoulder, Russ had a
broken hand, but like the Russell Westbrook absence, I think
you can argue that helps them in the playoffs, but
to get through the regular season. I find myself on like, okay,
backup or secondary ballhand, like it's Jamal Murray, it's Jokic,
And then who do you want doing all of this?

(01:40:53):
Like is it Bruce Brown? Like if that's the answer,
there's the floor who fall out from underneath them a
little bit. But I love the Nuggets as a team,
even if it's a weird thing where I think their
off season has been just overblown in terms of how
like genius it was. But I think that they're the
clear second best team in the West and closer to
the Thunder than they are further away from the Thunder.

Speaker 2 (01:41:15):
I think it's fair to say that they have, like
I want to say, like significantly more talent, but like
you know, Hardaway, Brown Valentunis aren't necessarily needle movers individually,
like I think they're just better than their options used
to be. And we've seen over and over again, like
Jokic doesn't need much, like he just needs some functional
bodies out there and he'll like make it work. A

(01:41:37):
player like Hardaway, who neither of us is like loved,
but like Yokic is gonna get hard Away great shots
like that's just and Hardaway can make shots, so like
I don't, he's like he's like a less like.

Speaker 1 (01:41:49):
He's streaky, but he's slightly less streaky than Juliet Strath
at this stage, which is which is why it.

Speaker 2 (01:41:54):
Helps, which is why is this I mean, maybe.

Speaker 1 (01:41:57):
You know what the move is that would make me
be like, oh, I love this team and I don't
think he wants to leave them, Like this is the
Chris Paul team to me, you want to want someone
to come in and made the offense like this is
the Chris I know he wants to play closer to
his family. I totally get that, But I think I
do think that the Jokic extension thing, though, is like
just there's an undercurrent to it in the regular season
where so, oh, he can guarantee himself more money next year,

(01:42:19):
That's why he did it. Sure, but he's kind of
also seen that, like can I really trust the front
office to make the right decisions here? So maybe that
forces them to operate, Like think about what they did
with all that extra flexibility they have like kind of
carved out last year, like following the casey, like letting
casep go. It kind of puts. It puts. Whether they
use it or not, it remains to be seen. But
I actually think it's a good thing he didn't sign

(01:42:40):
the extension beyond just financial reasons.

Speaker 2 (01:42:43):
Yeah, sure, no, I'm I was thinking of doing this.
I'm glad you did it. I'm glad you moved Denver up.
I feel like that's the right spot. Would you no
shots at the team.

Speaker 1 (01:42:52):
Have any kid Like, is there even a case though,
to put Denver above the Thunder. I can't. I can't
even begin to.

Speaker 2 (01:42:58):
No, no, no, no. I just think from the perspective
of it's much easier to imagine things going wrong with Denver,
Like Denver's core players aren't going to improve, and I
think the fact that a lot of the Thunders might
is just like that puts them over the top. In
addition to they won the whole thing and they won
six sixty eight games.

Speaker 1 (01:43:19):
Or whatever it was.

Speaker 2 (01:43:20):
Yeah, they deserve to be up there. I and I
just I think I couldn't quite get Denver above them,
like maybe in the regular Noah, Denver doesn't really care
that much about the regular season. I was gonna say,
I think the Thunder have a shot to win like
quite a few fewer regular season games, but actually just
be a better playoff team because they very clearly know
what they need to fix, you know, But that's.

Speaker 1 (01:43:42):
I know, we talked about it a bunch at this point,
But do you like, what do you make of the
Cam Johnson for MPJ swap, Like where do you where
do you think that it actually improves the nuggets or
do you think it ends up being sort of a
phone It's it's clearly not a financial wash and you
but like, just where are you at on that? After
thinking about it more, I.

Speaker 2 (01:44:00):
Think sitting on it for a little while now, where
I've landed is I don't think there's a good argument
that it improves them, Like specifically, I don't think you
can say Cam Johnson's definitely better than MPJ. MPJ has
been more durable, Like that's you know, we talked about
this when it happened. It's like that so missed me
with that one, at least over the last couple of years.

(01:44:23):
But if it is true that the savings was the REA,
like had they weren't gonna go get Bruce brown and
Tim Hardaway and Jonas valance units. Had they not saved Mone.

Speaker 1 (01:44:34):
They couldn't make the trade without doing that. They could
have absolutely signed right Tim Hardaway Junior Bruce Browner on minimums.
That had nothing to do with the the MPJ.

Speaker 2 (01:44:42):
It that's the thing is it needs the money. The
savings needs to be about where we intend to do
something with this as opposed to the kron Keys just
pay less like that, because if that's the case, then
I don't like the trade, but especially like that twenty thirty.

Speaker 1 (01:44:57):
I can't seeing versions of this from this is Dever's roh,
Cam is way better defender? Okay? How that's all I
keep seeing is people posting that and then posting percent
tiles on like b ball index is great or like
post that. I just tell me where Cam Johnson is
in the playoffs specific where has he been a like
a better defender. I just like, I'm this is not

(01:45:18):
that I like the camp Johnson a really good player,
but to talk in absolutes about the Denver offseason, I
think is why it's put a bad taste in my mouth.
It's just like, oh, no, you punted on a really
valuable asset so that you could get Cam Johnson and
uh Jonas valentiunis and give up like to and get
off Michael Porter Junior's money. If you're sitting here and
you believe that was the only call they like, you

(01:45:39):
need to believe that, Like how much did that at
You're better, You're deeper? How much differently do you feel
about this team as we're talking about them? Right now,
they're title equity if they're sitting on not Yonas, Valentiunis
and Cam and it's mpg's like, how much does that
actually change their title equity to you?

Speaker 2 (01:45:56):
That's the thing. Yeah, it's funny, like I feel like
they're perceived tie equity is greater, but I don't know
if actually it really is, because it because it just had.

Speaker 1 (01:46:04):
To give up a twenty thirty two pick to bump
it up by like dal Mory's not even trading it
to move it up one or two percent.

Speaker 2 (01:46:11):
Yeah, No, I think that's I think it's right. That's right,
Like it just feels like a big difference because I
don't know, had they just basically run it back, we
would have just would have somehow felt like they they
can't possibly be any better, you know, and maybe that's wrong,
but just because they're a little different, and I do,
I do think again this is independent of the trade
because it didn't like enable this to happen, I don't think.

(01:46:34):
But like Hardaway and Brown, I think I just expect
them to be like pretty good versions of themselves because
of playing with Jokic. Uh So, yeah, I think they're there.
Title equity is greater. I don't know if it's greater
because of the trade, because.

Speaker 1 (01:46:47):
I just you can say, oh, this makes it more
likely one I think they're like twelve million, or if
you put in the cap holes for Peyton Watson and
Christian Brown. A lot of my framing I've seen is, oh,
getting rid of that contract makes it more likely they're
going to stay out of the second Aprin resigned Brown
and wats unless you think Brown and Watson are gonna
make like a combined let's say thirty million, and I
would bet the over on that they're still gonna have

(01:47:07):
Second Apron concerns. And also that's not about this season then,
and if you have Nicola Jokic, everything needs to be
about the season that you're entering. So well, look, I'm
open to it. Everyone who's mad, I mean one, get
over it. Like we're allowed to have a difference of opinion.
But like I think Michael Porter Junior was underrated during
their title run. I think as a rebounder of stuff
he could do as like a lower guy at points,

(01:47:28):
probably didn't shine through as much last year. I just
I think there's a chance that to sit here and
say Cam is a massive upgrade over MPJA. I think
you need to say absolute and to not want to
see it play out. I don't really get it, but
I have them as the second best team in the
West and people will still be mad about it. Yes,
I've never watched Denver games. Just get the fuck out
of here, Like, come on, you're this is loser shit.

(01:47:49):
We're allowed to have difference of opinion, like I just don't.

Speaker 2 (01:47:52):
Oh, he's not going Denver Sports isn't going at you.
Denver Sports is defending the Nuggets against the Oh.

Speaker 1 (01:47:58):
I apologize that, Denver Sports. That was an over the
top reaction and you did not deserve that. I'm out
of the Nuggets club. That's fine.

Speaker 2 (01:48:05):
Oh no, you have to turn in your gun and
badge too bad.

Speaker 1 (01:48:10):
Do you have anything else? Do you read? Do you
want to recap for us really quick? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:48:14):
Yeah? So Jazz. The Jazz are alone. Sorry, fellas. In
the F tier down at the bottom, the three teams
in the tier above that are the Suns, Kings, and Pelicans.
Glad we landed on the Pelicans in the correct tier
above them. In C tier, we've got Dallas, San Antonio, Memphis,
Portland probably the most interesting tier just because who knows
with those teams above that in the B tier this

(01:48:37):
is These are teams we would imagine are competing for
a top six spot. Clippers, Warriors, Lakers, Lakers had to
get there via a veto by me. Dan hated it,
so I love it. The tier above that just too.
We've got Houston and Minnesota. These are your top four
West teams. Like if they're not up in that mix,
something something went sideways and finally s tier championship or bust.

(01:48:58):
We have the thunder with the Ugets, which maybe is
surprising to some people, but we talked it out and
it is the correct place we could.

Speaker 1 (01:49:04):
Yeah, unimpeachable. Our takes there. Yeah, do you have anything
else to add? Are you ready to take us out?
Sub two hours for us?

Speaker 2 (01:49:11):
That work pretty good, pretty good despite our technical difficulties.
Thanks everybody for bearing with us. Thanks for all the
what a robust chat we had today. The Western Conference
showed up. Get it Get it together Eastern Conference fans.
If you would like to be more engaged with the pod,
join our discord links for that in YouTube and podcast description.
Wherever you're consuming this, do an audio rate review, Subscribe,

(01:49:32):
give us comes up, Give us a five star rating.
Wherever you're checking this out, let us know what you
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Tell your friends, tell your enemies think that's going to
do it. Thanks everybody shouts frink nolteen apologies.

Speaker 1 (01:49:44):
Jared Allen