June 30, 2025 • 25 mins
Norm Murray speaks with Jacqueline Kappers - speaker, writer, professional coach, change facilitator and researcher about making "CHANGE" easier and less stressful by learning what your brain does, on change.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The views expressed in the following program are those of
the participants and do not necessarily reflect the views of
SAGA nine sixty AM or its management.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
I'm Nora Murray. You're listening to News Talk Saga nine sixty.
Thanks a lot for joining us today. You know, I've
been looking forward very much to speaking to Jacqueline Cappers.
She is going to be telling us a great deal
that there is to know about change, making change, if
you think about that for a second, making change easier
and less stressful by learning what your brain does on change.
(00:58):
Not a lot of people can hand change easily, or
at least it is something that stresses us out. And
I thought, you know, this is a fascinating topic really
to discuss. So we're going to chat with Jacqueline Cappers
and it's our first time being on our program. She
has been stirring the pot, as she says, asking inconvenient
questions and initiating change with government, post secondary institutions, corporations,
(01:23):
not only in Canada but also across Europe for over
twenty five years as a speaker, writer, professional coach, change
facilitator and researcher. Hi Jacqueline, how are you today? Hi?
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Norm, I'm well, thank you, thanks so.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Much for joining us here today. I hope I describe
you and what you do properly. How would you describe
it though? When people stop you on the street or
or anywhere for that matter. If you're, you know, filing
an application for some sort of a service online, how
do you fill in what your job is? What would
you describe it as?
Speaker 1 (01:57):
I think I would describe myself as a change educator,
an advisor, and the coach I think really sums it up.
I make change easier and less stressful for organizations and
the people that work for them. But my scope has
sort of expanded since I started this research.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
So what brought you to the research of change? What
was it that made that, you know, ignite a fire
within you?
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Well, it's a it's an interesting story. I was already
my background is an organizational development and I was already
working in OD or organizational development in various capacities. And
one of the challenges in organizational change is employee resistance.
(02:48):
So people resistant change, So how do we deal with resistance?
How do we overcome resistance? Et cetera. Now, six years ago,
I went through a massive case that changed everything in
my life personally and professionally. And even though it was
a very positive change, I found myself six months after
(03:12):
it happened really struggling to get through life actually, and
I couldn't figure it out because this was something that
I had really wanted, and I can't say, be careful
what you wish for. I was really dragging myself through life.
So I got curious and I started to ask you
(03:32):
questions like what does change do to our brain? And
what is it about the process of change that seems
so challenging, not only for me but for other people,
especially for positive change. And what I discovered was that
change began. There are two parts to a change. There's
(03:55):
the functional change itself, so the implementation of a project,
a new texticem or a reorganization. But then there's also
the transitioning of the mindset and behaviors of the people
who are impacted by the change. So in organizations, we
(04:16):
have historically looked at implementing functional change and have not
prepared our people for the transitioning through the change to
the adapting behavior and mindset. So how that relates to me?
Yea I looked at I started looking at neuropsychology and
(04:37):
physiology and evolutionary psychology and panetology, which is death studies.
And I realized that in organizational change theory, Bridges William
Bridges has a model where he has identified that all
changes begin with loss, so positive or negative, all change
(05:00):
to begin with loss. You have to lose the previous
state in order to transition and adapt to the new state.
So my positive change had brought a massive, massive amount
of loss. And what our brain does when it detects
a loss, especially a loss of predictability or control or attachment,
(05:22):
and I had all three, it triggers a survival response
or a threat response. And that was making my life
very difficult because I was exhausted and I felt sick
all the time, and I couldn't focus, and it's just
like my brain went to thought it was awful. So
(05:45):
I realized I had sort of in a haw moment
in the organization. Historically, we have looked at fixing the
downstream outcome negative outcomes of organization change and trying to
get over resistance. But what if that resistance wasn't to
(06:06):
the change itself, but to the loss of the previous
state and the discomforts of the loss. The discomfort that
our brain creates when it loses predictability or attachment. And
that's that's what brought me to it, because when I
(06:28):
learned from Tanatology and doctor Darcy Harris of the King's College,
I finally had a language around lost and it was
the intangible losses like my loss of identity and the
loss of the way I thought things would be that
was bothering me the most. So I poured all that
(06:49):
into the context of organizational change and suddenly it made sense.
And that's what U when I asked a few thought
leaders in that stage what they thought in my idea
that maybe we need to go instead of go from
dellstream to fitch the negative outcomes of change, perhaps we
(07:10):
need to go upstream to create change capacity right and
do that by teaching people about what their brain does
want change and gives them the language and tools and
processes and the permission to do what they need to
do to transition through it, and that seems to be
quite successful.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Jacqueline Cappers is our guest found on LinkedIn. Primarily when
you go onto LinkedIn dot com and look up Jacqueline
Cappers with a K kapp e r S Jacqueline Cappers,
and you know what, she has an expertise in change management,
which is something we all need, I think, because there's
(07:51):
good change, not so good change, we are often resistant
to change. She also speaks about capacity building, stress reduction,
which is a huge health issue even for that matter,
non death, grief processing, and leadership development, overcoming change fatigue
and change resistance because it is exhausting when we go
(08:15):
through change. Who do you speak to mostly? Who are
your biggest clients if you will? What kind of a
change is it through employment change? Is it through life change?
Who's your biggest customer you find yourself talking to or about?
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Well? I started with organizational change and so leadership chang
structural changes in the organization. But the more I talked
about this chef at conferences that were change management conferences,
I kept getting two questions consistently, Do you do anything
for kids, just because every twelve year old should know
(08:49):
this stuff. Because everybody is toilet trained so they know
how to manage their bladder. Everybody should be change trained
so they know how to manage their brain on change.
And it's not that hard, just takes a lot of
efforts and time, and the other question I kept getting
was do you do anything for military because when people
(09:09):
have spent twenty four years in the military and then
they're expected to transition out into the civilian world, that's
an enormous amount of change. So in the last eighteen months,
I have developed programs for kids transitioning out of high
school so graduate. I'm currently working with a college in
(09:32):
Canada and their student leaders to help first your student
transition into call it into post secondary. For the last year,
I've been working with individual members of an elite branch
of the UK military to support them on a one
on one bases transitioning back to civilian life. And we're
looking at creating a program for a cohort so that
(09:56):
it can be implemented on a broader scale.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Very very important, which it is, and a little complicated,
which I'm sure it is. But you can handle it.
This is what you do and I'm sweating just thinking
about it. And that it's in itself is a resistance
to change. Sometimes I think people seem to get anxiety
and nervousness and all sorts of other elements I'm sure
(10:20):
when it comes to change, and that's why they rely
on someone like yourself. To help guide us through it.
Is there light? Is there light at the end of
the tunnel? Is there a way to sort of stick
handle our way through it in a little bit easier
way with a little.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Bit Absolutely, I already referred to being toilet trained and
managing our bladder. Yes, But what a lot of people
don't understand or don't realize is that are well. We
were at a very young age. We learned what that
pressure at the bottom of our abdomen was and what
we needed to do about it, and the urgency with
(10:56):
which we needed to do it. And we also learned
what that dic comfort in our stomach was when our
bodies need fuel, and both our bladder and our stomach
are pieces of equipment that our body needs to keep
it running healthily and effectively. And what a lot of
people don't understand is that their brain is also a
piece of equipment. But because our brain is so bound
(11:17):
up in our consciousness, we don't think about it as
a piece of equipment. And it evolved at a time
when we were still in the middle of the food chain.
And unfortunately we don't live I mean fortunately we don't
live with the same level of threats that we did
now that we did then, but our brain still responds
the same way. So by understanding how our brain responds
(11:42):
to a loss of predictability or controller attachment, and understanding
what we need to do about that, by equipping ourselves
with the language and the tools and the process to
transition through that, by learning our change fingerprint, for lack
of another word, You can navigate your ways through a
(12:08):
change at hand, but once you know your change fingerprint,
you can transition through any change in the future. And
the beauty of this is is that once you learn
this stuff, any responses to change or anything you need
to transition through it is destigmatized because the role of
stigma in our ability to recognize and give ourselves permission
(12:33):
to do what this piece of equipment needs us to
do is devastating for our societal mental health. Now, I
do want to highlight that this is not a mental
health program. I don't facilitate it a mental health program.
This program, the content that I deliver is strictly to
(12:54):
create change capacity so that people are equipped and empowered
to move through any change. So it's sort of like
going from a position of I'm a victim of circumstance
and change happens to me, to change happens, and I
control my process.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
I can see Jackline, I can see Jaqueline why some
people might think initially that it is a mental health issue.
You know, we are almost programmed now to focus on
things in default too. Oh, it must be a mental
health issue. But like you're saying, it really is not.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
It is not. I mean again, I come back to
toilet training. We don't need an nephrologist to know when
we need to go into your bladder, and we don't
need a neuropsychologist to know what to do how to
transition ourselves through change. No, that doesn't mean that we
don't need nephrologists or neuropsychologists. It just means that we
have the ability the capacity to manage ourselves through transitions
(13:54):
if we have that knowledge and the language and the
tools to do it. And it's not that hard. It
just takes some time and effort to learn your change
fingerprints and to learn about changes a concept.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Your change fingerprint. I like that. I like the phrasing
of it. It's easy to remember too.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Well. It's really interesting that when you consider that everyone
experience has changed differently, and everybody's brain tells them that
it has lost predictability or attachments. Differently, we get different
signals in different combinations for different reasons at different times,
and we need different lengths of time to process a
(14:35):
change experience, in transition through it, and adapt to the
new situation. So really, there are eight billion people in
the world and there are eight billion change fingerprints, and
once once you know yours, your set, you know how
to deal with change. But the corollary of that is
once you know that, once you know yours, you know
(14:56):
that everyone else has one too, and that means that
you're in a better position to be able to support
others to change. And that's particularly important for people in
a position leadership position where they're supporting others to change,
or for my military client, they don't resettle, they don't
(15:16):
transition into civilian life on their own. Mostly a lot
of them have families, and those families leave the military too,
so they're in a better position to support their families
as they all transition back to civilian life.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
We're speaking with Jacqueline Cappers. You can find her on
LinkedIn Jacqueline with Kappers with a K. Kappeers, founder of
Blue Morpho Group and the creator of the Change Fingerprint
and Change Scorecard tools from Managing Change. It is really
quite an interesting topic where I'm helping to learn right
(15:51):
now about making change easier and less stressful by learning
what your brain does on change. For example, when you
are in an organization and then you want to promote ownership,
shifting the mindset from the change happens to me to
I control my own process, and I guess you can
sort of equate that to just about anything in your life.
(16:11):
Something isn't happening to me.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Right, that's correct. Yeah, And in the organization in particular,
it's interesting that change historically has been the responsibility of
the leaders and change practitioners in the organization. Leaders communicate
the change, they have the vision, they communicate the change.
(16:34):
Change practitioners do the assessments, the readiness assessments and the
gap analysis, et cetera. But the employees are sort of
the recipients of the change, the passive recipients of But
when you look, when you use this framework, then suddenly
everybody in the organization is responsible for the success of
(16:56):
the change. The leaders for the vision and for modeling
the behaviors and creating the psychologically safe change. Enabled change
equipped workplace and culture change practitioners for doing their job
and making sure that change is implemented correctly. Project managers
as well. But the change is implemented correctly, but then
(17:19):
every employee is responsible for their own responses to it.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Do you see and do you think that, Jacqueline, that
change has a lot to do with trust. In other words,
if you're an employee, it's I don't trust that this
is going to work or that this is the right
thing for even the company I'm working with, trusting the
change and also in private life, trusting that I'm going
to be okay going forward.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Absolutely, if there's no trust, then you can't have you
can't have informed conversations about the impact of a change,
or the outcome of a change, or how it will
be implemented. And the leaders are therefore responsible for creating
psychologically safe environments where employees feel safe enough they trust
(18:09):
that they can express themselves and concerns or suggestions or
opportunities related to a change without being without there being
any unitive, managed measures or repercussions.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Jacqueline Cappers is speaking to us. You can find her
on LinkedIn Jacqueline Cappers with a K k A P
P e R S making change easier and less stressful
by learning what your brain does on change. Can you
give us an idea of a couple of tools we
can use out of the out of your toolkit that
you've found and learned about. Listen to me. I'm asking
(18:45):
for you, for your years and years of study and research,
to just drop a little you know, dime or two
in our direction. Here. What can we do? That's a
couple of easy things.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
I'll give you many lessons. So I've given you. I've
told you that every change begins with loss. Right, you
have to let go of the previous state in order
to transition and adapt to the new state. And that's
a positive change, negative change, a plan change imposed, doesn't matter.
Every change begins with loss, and those losses can be
(19:16):
tangible and intangible. So tangible change is when you retire.
Is one day you're employed, in the next day you
are not. So that's a tangible change. Everybody can see that.
The intangible losses associated with that are a loss of
social circle, loss of structure, loss of routine, loss of meaning,
(19:39):
loss of purpose, loss of identity, et cetera. So a
tool but with every change there are also gains, and
they are tangible and intangible gains. I created a tool
called the Change Scorecard, which is an inventory of those
tangible and intangible losses and gains and when it has
when it's administered. What leaders have noticed, what people have noticed,
(20:03):
because I've worked with more than more people than just
leaders and organizations, is that it gives people more control.
They're able to see concretely what exactly about this change
is going to impact them, What is bothering them? If
there's something bothering their brain, and then they can coach
(20:27):
themselves through it. So what is the loss? What does
it mean to me? Do I need to replace it?
How am I going to replace it? It gives people
a planning tool, a processing tool. It creates more open conversation.
It engages employees, but there has to be a psychologically
(20:52):
safe work environment for that to happen, for these conversations
to happen. And the outcome is that we notice less turnover,
less absenteeism, less disengagement, less error rates, less sabotage, if
you want to talk about that. And the change is
(21:15):
that means more productivity, more engagement, but more effective change implementation,
more revenue, happier employees, happier clients, better branding for the company.
It's it's a really interesting tool with actually really profoundly
(21:36):
positive impacts for both the organization, the leaders, and the
employees in it.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Jacqueline Cappers can be found on LinkedIn and that's Capper's
with a K K A P P E R S.
Making change it doesn't have to be as daunting as
we think it is. Even just the idea of change
stresses people, let alone the actual change itself, right, making
change easier and less stressful by learning what your brain
(22:05):
does on change. As we sort of wrap things up
as anything else, you want to make sure that we
mentioned during this portion of the information for everybody, just
a sort of a summation, if you will, and where
we can go from here.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Well, I'll tell you a secret. I'm a change management
advisor and I really don't like change. It's so uncomfortable
when my brain detects a loss of predictability or attachment,
extremely uncomfortable. I don't like it, but I'm really good
at it because I know what's happening to my brain.
(22:41):
I have the tools and the language to transition myself
through it and I've given myself permission to do what
i need to do, so I have no hang ups
around it. There's no stigma around it, and anyone who
has learned this content has reported the same, so they
reported it's specifically an enormous decrease in stress related to
(23:06):
a change, so that they can focus on the functional
change rather than dealing with any shame or blame or
fear or judgments or guilt around how they're responding to
it or what they need to transition through it. It's
not hard, it just takes a bit of time.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Jacqueline Cappers is on LinkedIn an associate, certified coach, certified
Change Intelligence facilitator, and you can find out more information
as to how she can help maybe your organization or
you yourself, as she's been doing this a long time.
Change is a good thing. Jacqueline, thanks so much for
(23:44):
speaking to us about all this today and we wish
you all the best going forward.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Thank you. Enormous I could make and ask I would
really appreciate that if we're still piloting the content with
cohorts in organizations i'm I'M, and also with military personnel
who are transitioning back to civilian life. I would we've
only we've worked one on one with a lot of
(24:10):
leaders and issues trained in a limited capacity with organizations.
If anyone is interested in this and is in a
position where they are transitioning back to civilian life, or
they're a leader in an organization who's interested in making
change easier and less stressful for their people, I'd really
(24:34):
love the opportunity to pilot this content in another couple
of cohorts for my doctoral research and my books.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
That sounds amazing A great opportunity. That would be a
good change, Jacqueline, thank you again.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Thank you, Norm.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
I'm Norm Murray listening to news Talk SAGA nine sixty.
We'll be back after this, no radio, no problem.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
Stream us live on SAGA nine sixty AM dot CA.
The views expressed in the following program are those of
the participants and do not necessarily reflect the views of
SAGA nine sixty AM or its management.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
I'm Nora Murray. You're listening to News Talk Saga nine sixty.
Thanks a lot for joining us today. You know, I've
been looking forward very much to speaking to Jacqueline Cappers.
She is going to be telling us a great deal
that there is to know about change, making change, if
you think about that for a second, making change easier
and less stressful by learning what your brain does on change.
(00:58):
Not a lot of people can hand change easily, or
at least it is something that stresses us out. And
I thought, you know, this is a fascinating topic really
to discuss. So we're going to chat with Jacqueline Cappers
and it's our first time being on our program. She
has been stirring the pot, as she says, asking inconvenient
questions and initiating change with government, post secondary institutions, corporations,
(01:23):
not only in Canada but also across Europe for over
twenty five years as a speaker, writer, professional coach, change
facilitator and researcher. Hi Jacqueline, how are you today? Hi?
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Norm, I'm well, thank you, thanks so.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Much for joining us here today. I hope I describe
you and what you do properly. How would you describe
it though? When people stop you on the street or
or anywhere for that matter. If you're, you know, filing
an application for some sort of a service online, how
do you fill in what your job is? What would
you describe it as?
Speaker 1 (01:57):
I think I would describe myself as a change educator,
an advisor, and the coach I think really sums it up.
I make change easier and less stressful for organizations and
the people that work for them. But my scope has
sort of expanded since I started this research.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
So what brought you to the research of change? What
was it that made that, you know, ignite a fire
within you?
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Well, it's a it's an interesting story. I was already
my background is an organizational development and I was already
working in OD or organizational development in various capacities. And
one of the challenges in organizational change is employee resistance.
(02:48):
So people resistant change, So how do we deal with resistance?
How do we overcome resistance? Et cetera. Now, six years ago,
I went through a massive case that changed everything in
my life personally and professionally. And even though it was
a very positive change, I found myself six months after
(03:12):
it happened really struggling to get through life actually, and
I couldn't figure it out because this was something that
I had really wanted, and I can't say, be careful
what you wish for. I was really dragging myself through life.
So I got curious and I started to ask you
(03:32):
questions like what does change do to our brain? And
what is it about the process of change that seems
so challenging, not only for me but for other people,
especially for positive change. And what I discovered was that
change began. There are two parts to a change. There's
(03:55):
the functional change itself, so the implementation of a project,
a new texticem or a reorganization. But then there's also
the transitioning of the mindset and behaviors of the people
who are impacted by the change. So in organizations, we
(04:16):
have historically looked at implementing functional change and have not
prepared our people for the transitioning through the change to
the adapting behavior and mindset. So how that relates to me?
Yea I looked at I started looking at neuropsychology and
(04:37):
physiology and evolutionary psychology and panetology, which is death studies.
And I realized that in organizational change theory, Bridges William
Bridges has a model where he has identified that all
changes begin with loss, so positive or negative, all change
(05:00):
to begin with loss. You have to lose the previous
state in order to transition and adapt to the new state.
So my positive change had brought a massive, massive amount
of loss. And what our brain does when it detects
a loss, especially a loss of predictability or control or attachment,
(05:22):
and I had all three, it triggers a survival response
or a threat response. And that was making my life
very difficult because I was exhausted and I felt sick
all the time, and I couldn't focus, and it's just
like my brain went to thought it was awful. So
(05:45):
I realized I had sort of in a haw moment
in the organization. Historically, we have looked at fixing the
downstream outcome negative outcomes of organization change and trying to
get over resistance. But what if that resistance wasn't to
(06:06):
the change itself, but to the loss of the previous
state and the discomforts of the loss. The discomfort that
our brain creates when it loses predictability or attachment. And
that's that's what brought me to it, because when I
(06:28):
learned from Tanatology and doctor Darcy Harris of the King's College,
I finally had a language around lost and it was
the intangible losses like my loss of identity and the
loss of the way I thought things would be that
was bothering me the most. So I poured all that
(06:49):
into the context of organizational change and suddenly it made sense.
And that's what U when I asked a few thought
leaders in that stage what they thought in my idea
that maybe we need to go instead of go from
dellstream to fitch the negative outcomes of change, perhaps we
(07:10):
need to go upstream to create change capacity right and
do that by teaching people about what their brain does
want change and gives them the language and tools and
processes and the permission to do what they need to
do to transition through it, and that seems to be
quite successful.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Jacqueline Cappers is our guest found on LinkedIn. Primarily when
you go onto LinkedIn dot com and look up Jacqueline
Cappers with a K kapp e r S Jacqueline Cappers,
and you know what, she has an expertise in change management,
which is something we all need, I think, because there's
(07:51):
good change, not so good change, we are often resistant
to change. She also speaks about capacity building, stress reduction,
which is a huge health issue even for that matter,
non death, grief processing, and leadership development, overcoming change fatigue
and change resistance because it is exhausting when we go
(08:15):
through change. Who do you speak to mostly? Who are
your biggest clients if you will? What kind of a
change is it through employment change? Is it through life change?
Who's your biggest customer you find yourself talking to or about?
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Well? I started with organizational change and so leadership chang
structural changes in the organization. But the more I talked
about this chef at conferences that were change management conferences,
I kept getting two questions consistently, Do you do anything
for kids, just because every twelve year old should know
(08:49):
this stuff. Because everybody is toilet trained so they know
how to manage their bladder. Everybody should be change trained
so they know how to manage their brain on change.
And it's not that hard, just takes a lot of
efforts and time, and the other question I kept getting
was do you do anything for military because when people
(09:09):
have spent twenty four years in the military and then
they're expected to transition out into the civilian world, that's
an enormous amount of change. So in the last eighteen months,
I have developed programs for kids transitioning out of high
school so graduate. I'm currently working with a college in
(09:32):
Canada and their student leaders to help first your student
transition into call it into post secondary. For the last year,
I've been working with individual members of an elite branch
of the UK military to support them on a one
on one bases transitioning back to civilian life. And we're
looking at creating a program for a cohort so that
(09:56):
it can be implemented on a broader scale.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Very very important, which it is, and a little complicated,
which I'm sure it is. But you can handle it.
This is what you do and I'm sweating just thinking
about it. And that it's in itself is a resistance
to change. Sometimes I think people seem to get anxiety
and nervousness and all sorts of other elements I'm sure
(10:20):
when it comes to change, and that's why they rely
on someone like yourself. To help guide us through it.
Is there light? Is there light at the end of
the tunnel? Is there a way to sort of stick
handle our way through it in a little bit easier
way with a little.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Bit Absolutely, I already referred to being toilet trained and
managing our bladder. Yes, But what a lot of people
don't understand or don't realize is that are well. We
were at a very young age. We learned what that
pressure at the bottom of our abdomen was and what
we needed to do about it, and the urgency with
(10:56):
which we needed to do it. And we also learned
what that dic comfort in our stomach was when our
bodies need fuel, and both our bladder and our stomach
are pieces of equipment that our body needs to keep
it running healthily and effectively. And what a lot of
people don't understand is that their brain is also a
piece of equipment. But because our brain is so bound
(11:17):
up in our consciousness, we don't think about it as
a piece of equipment. And it evolved at a time
when we were still in the middle of the food chain.
And unfortunately we don't live I mean fortunately we don't
live with the same level of threats that we did
now that we did then, but our brain still responds
the same way. So by understanding how our brain responds
(11:42):
to a loss of predictability or controller attachment, and understanding
what we need to do about that, by equipping ourselves
with the language and the tools and the process to
transition through that, by learning our change fingerprint, for lack
of another word, You can navigate your ways through a
(12:08):
change at hand, but once you know your change fingerprint,
you can transition through any change in the future. And
the beauty of this is is that once you learn
this stuff, any responses to change or anything you need
to transition through it is destigmatized because the role of
stigma in our ability to recognize and give ourselves permission
(12:33):
to do what this piece of equipment needs us to
do is devastating for our societal mental health. Now, I
do want to highlight that this is not a mental
health program. I don't facilitate it a mental health program.
This program, the content that I deliver is strictly to
(12:54):
create change capacity so that people are equipped and empowered
to move through any change. So it's sort of like
going from a position of I'm a victim of circumstance
and change happens to me, to change happens, and I
control my process.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
I can see Jackline, I can see Jaqueline why some
people might think initially that it is a mental health issue.
You know, we are almost programmed now to focus on
things in default too. Oh, it must be a mental
health issue. But like you're saying, it really is not.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
It is not. I mean again, I come back to
toilet training. We don't need an nephrologist to know when
we need to go into your bladder, and we don't
need a neuropsychologist to know what to do how to
transition ourselves through change. No, that doesn't mean that we
don't need nephrologists or neuropsychologists. It just means that we
have the ability the capacity to manage ourselves through transitions
(13:54):
if we have that knowledge and the language and the
tools to do it. And it's not that hard. It
just takes some time and effort to learn your change
fingerprints and to learn about changes a concept.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Your change fingerprint. I like that. I like the phrasing
of it. It's easy to remember too.
Speaker 1 (14:12):
Well. It's really interesting that when you consider that everyone
experience has changed differently, and everybody's brain tells them that
it has lost predictability or attachments. Differently, we get different
signals in different combinations for different reasons at different times,
and we need different lengths of time to process a
(14:35):
change experience, in transition through it, and adapt to the
new situation. So really, there are eight billion people in
the world and there are eight billion change fingerprints, and
once once you know yours, your set, you know how
to deal with change. But the corollary of that is
once you know that, once you know yours, you know
(14:56):
that everyone else has one too, and that means that
you're in a better position to be able to support
others to change. And that's particularly important for people in
a position leadership position where they're supporting others to change,
or for my military client, they don't resettle, they don't
(15:16):
transition into civilian life on their own. Mostly a lot
of them have families, and those families leave the military too,
so they're in a better position to support their families
as they all transition back to civilian life.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
We're speaking with Jacqueline Cappers. You can find her on
LinkedIn Jacqueline with Kappers with a K. Kappeers, founder of
Blue Morpho Group and the creator of the Change Fingerprint
and Change Scorecard tools from Managing Change. It is really
quite an interesting topic where I'm helping to learn right
(15:51):
now about making change easier and less stressful by learning
what your brain does on change. For example, when you
are in an organization and then you want to promote ownership,
shifting the mindset from the change happens to me to
I control my own process, and I guess you can
sort of equate that to just about anything in your life.
(16:11):
Something isn't happening to me.
Speaker 1 (16:13):
Right, that's correct. Yeah, And in the organization in particular,
it's interesting that change historically has been the responsibility of
the leaders and change practitioners in the organization. Leaders communicate
the change, they have the vision, they communicate the change.
(16:34):
Change practitioners do the assessments, the readiness assessments and the
gap analysis, et cetera. But the employees are sort of
the recipients of the change, the passive recipients of But
when you look, when you use this framework, then suddenly
everybody in the organization is responsible for the success of
(16:56):
the change. The leaders for the vision and for modeling
the behaviors and creating the psychologically safe change. Enabled change
equipped workplace and culture change practitioners for doing their job
and making sure that change is implemented correctly. Project managers
as well. But the change is implemented correctly, but then
(17:19):
every employee is responsible for their own responses to it.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Do you see and do you think that, Jacqueline, that
change has a lot to do with trust. In other words,
if you're an employee, it's I don't trust that this
is going to work or that this is the right
thing for even the company I'm working with, trusting the
change and also in private life, trusting that I'm going
to be okay going forward.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Absolutely, if there's no trust, then you can't have you
can't have informed conversations about the impact of a change,
or the outcome of a change, or how it will
be implemented. And the leaders are therefore responsible for creating
psychologically safe environments where employees feel safe enough they trust
(18:09):
that they can express themselves and concerns or suggestions or
opportunities related to a change without being without there being
any unitive, managed measures or repercussions.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Jacqueline Cappers is speaking to us. You can find her
on LinkedIn Jacqueline Cappers with a K k A P
P e R S making change easier and less stressful
by learning what your brain does on change. Can you
give us an idea of a couple of tools we
can use out of the out of your toolkit that
you've found and learned about. Listen to me. I'm asking
(18:45):
for you, for your years and years of study and research,
to just drop a little you know, dime or two
in our direction. Here. What can we do? That's a
couple of easy things.
Speaker 1 (18:55):
I'll give you many lessons. So I've given you. I've
told you that every change begins with loss. Right, you
have to let go of the previous state in order
to transition and adapt to the new state. And that's
a positive change, negative change, a plan change imposed, doesn't matter.
Every change begins with loss, and those losses can be
(19:16):
tangible and intangible. So tangible change is when you retire.
Is one day you're employed, in the next day you
are not. So that's a tangible change. Everybody can see that.
The intangible losses associated with that are a loss of
social circle, loss of structure, loss of routine, loss of meaning,
(19:39):
loss of purpose, loss of identity, et cetera. So a
tool but with every change there are also gains, and
they are tangible and intangible gains. I created a tool
called the Change Scorecard, which is an inventory of those
tangible and intangible losses and gains and when it has
when it's administered. What leaders have noticed, what people have noticed,
(20:03):
because I've worked with more than more people than just
leaders and organizations, is that it gives people more control.
They're able to see concretely what exactly about this change
is going to impact them, What is bothering them? If
there's something bothering their brain, and then they can coach
(20:27):
themselves through it. So what is the loss? What does
it mean to me? Do I need to replace it?
How am I going to replace it? It gives people
a planning tool, a processing tool. It creates more open conversation.
It engages employees, but there has to be a psychologically
(20:52):
safe work environment for that to happen, for these conversations
to happen. And the outcome is that we notice less turnover,
less absenteeism, less disengagement, less error rates, less sabotage, if
you want to talk about that. And the change is
(21:15):
that means more productivity, more engagement, but more effective change implementation,
more revenue, happier employees, happier clients, better branding for the company.
It's it's a really interesting tool with actually really profoundly
(21:36):
positive impacts for both the organization, the leaders, and the
employees in it.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Jacqueline Cappers can be found on LinkedIn and that's Capper's
with a K K A P P E R S.
Making change it doesn't have to be as daunting as
we think it is. Even just the idea of change
stresses people, let alone the actual change itself, right, making
change easier and less stressful by learning what your brain
(22:05):
does on change. As we sort of wrap things up
as anything else, you want to make sure that we
mentioned during this portion of the information for everybody, just
a sort of a summation, if you will, and where
we can go from here.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Well, I'll tell you a secret. I'm a change management
advisor and I really don't like change. It's so uncomfortable
when my brain detects a loss of predictability or attachment,
extremely uncomfortable. I don't like it, but I'm really good
at it because I know what's happening to my brain.
(22:41):
I have the tools and the language to transition myself
through it and I've given myself permission to do what
i need to do, so I have no hang ups
around it. There's no stigma around it, and anyone who
has learned this content has reported the same, so they
reported it's specifically an enormous decrease in stress related to
(23:06):
a change, so that they can focus on the functional
change rather than dealing with any shame or blame or
fear or judgments or guilt around how they're responding to
it or what they need to transition through it. It's
not hard, it just takes a bit of time.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Jacqueline Cappers is on LinkedIn an associate, certified coach, certified
Change Intelligence facilitator, and you can find out more information
as to how she can help maybe your organization or
you yourself, as she's been doing this a long time.
Change is a good thing. Jacqueline, thanks so much for
(23:44):
speaking to us about all this today and we wish
you all the best going forward.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
Thank you. Enormous I could make and ask I would
really appreciate that if we're still piloting the content with
cohorts in organizations i'm I'M, and also with military personnel
who are transitioning back to civilian life. I would we've
only we've worked one on one with a lot of
(24:10):
leaders and issues trained in a limited capacity with organizations.
If anyone is interested in this and is in a
position where they are transitioning back to civilian life, or
they're a leader in an organization who's interested in making
change easier and less stressful for their people, I'd really
(24:34):
love the opportunity to pilot this content in another couple
of cohorts for my doctoral research and my books.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
That sounds amazing A great opportunity. That would be a
good change, Jacqueline, thank you again.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
Thank you, Norm.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
I'm Norm Murray listening to news Talk SAGA nine sixty.
We'll be back after this, no radio, no problem.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
Stream us live on SAGA nine sixty AM dot CA.
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