The Ochelli Effect 7-10-2025 TRIBUTE Joan Mellen 2

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:13):
Okay, So if you're still listening on the live stream,
this is a quick, easy continuation. If not, this is
part two of the podcast that is a tribute to
my friend author who passed away recently, Joan Mellon, who
was the first guest on The Ocelli Effect in February
of twenty fifteen, the first live guest on the Ocelli Effect. Okay, anyway,

(00:36):
there was only a handful of podcasts recorded before that,
and it became what it became now these many years later.
The dogs are making noise. I'm sorry about that, guys,
and I'm going to get right back into the interview
with Joan, because today, as I speak, it's July tenth
of twenty twenty five, and I wasn't I've been so

(00:57):
dismayed as of late, I wasn't even gonna do a show,
and then I got the sad news that Joan Mellon
had passed away.

Speaker 2 (01:04):
And I told a story in.

Speaker 1 (01:05):
Part one about the general arc of our entire relationship. Really,
I left a few things out because you know, she's
entitled to her privacy about some things, but she was
a friend. We had a relationship of an interesting dynamic
to me and I have one more small story to

(01:28):
tell about her, but I'll do that after I let
her speak for herself. I got that show from twenty
four to fifteen. Here lined up twenty fourteen. I keep
making that mistake. February fifteen of twenty fourteen. Okay, that's
when the o'celli Effect was live with Joan Mellan as
my first live guest on a Saturday night on ucy

(01:51):
dot TV, an alternative media radio network which hardly those
things don't even exist anymore, right, I still have a
little radio network for as long as I can pay
for that. Anyway, it is what it is, and hopefully
you guys are getting something out of this.

Speaker 2 (02:10):
And I mean to be.

Speaker 1 (02:14):
Very respectful and pay tribute to somebody who had a
great influence on me. And whether you know it or not,
if you're following real information, real research, actual solid stuff
when it comes to the jfk assassination, the USS liberty,
the various machinations of what's gone on in Cuba and
Haiti and other places, plus many other books. She wrote

(02:38):
a couple dozen books, some of them on film, Japanese
film in particular, but cinema and women in Cinema, Marilyn Monroe,
a lot of books on a lot of things, but
a whole bunch of them you'll see on the graphic
for this tribute.

Speaker 2 (02:50):
To Joan Mellen.

Speaker 1 (02:51):
Anyway, enough out of me, Let's get right back to
it and play some more of this where I may
or may not stop and comment here or there, just
to remind you of the context. Eleven years later from this,
and then I've got a piece of an interview. Let
me check the date on it real fast. I've got
a piece of an interview, so it won't be the
whole thing. I might play this whole thing in these

(03:12):
two parts, you know, split between the two parts, but
I might not.

Speaker 2 (03:16):
But I also have an interview.

Speaker 1 (03:17):
From twenty eighteen with Joan. So four years after this one,
and we had done a few shows and continue to
do shows. We did one on Faustian Bargain. We did
one on the Sherlock being catfished. We did one on
Blood in the Water, the USS liberty story, Ourman and
Haiti about de morn Shields, right. We did the discussion

(03:40):
on the Great Game in Cuba and all of the
interesting you know, anti and pro castro Cubans involved in
various aspects of the Kennedy assassination and other deep political
things going on, and she talks about the CIA pretty
bluntly here and again my opinions differed from Joan on
a few things, but I bet if you're familiar with
my point of view on various things that are coming

(04:02):
up during this interview, which I strategically brought up in
a two hour spot, by the way, on a Saturday
with Joan.

Speaker 2 (04:11):
I was really happy to do it.

Speaker 1 (04:13):
And I thought, lead with my best foot forward, and
this was the friendly person I knew that would bring
me something very very solid, very very correct, very very
well backed by research and proper work. And also she
was a hell of a writer, clearly anyway, she had

(04:33):
her flaws, she had her quirks, and towards the end
of her life she was pretty angry at me for
various things. But I hope that she remembers now that
I was always her friend and always somebody that was
happy to talk her through things, work with her on things,
give her a different perspective when she requested it, and

(04:57):
gets shut down respectfully, and shut the hell up when
I I was told do And it didn't matter if
we were talking about, you know, Thomas Beckham, or the
New York Mets, or the goings on in Jersey because
we both lived there for many years. Anyway, back to
the twenty fourteen interview with Joan Mellon from the Ocelli

(05:20):
Effect archives got.

Speaker 3 (05:22):
A huge amount of contributions from Brown and Route and
of course again in nineteen forty eight he did so
this is a mutual admiration society. And when Johnson, by
the time, let's say nineteen sixty four comes, the net
worth of Lyndon Johnson was twenty four million dollars. Now,
when you think he did many scams, many and many,
but when you think that President Kennedy was considered a

(05:44):
rich man, only had ten million dollars, you can see
what enormous efforts that Lindon Johnson made to feathering his nest.
And he was a master act, tremendously shrewd. And he
had people like Bobby Baker, and he had people like
Billy Celestes and others to help him alone. And of

(06:05):
course in those days in Texas as in Louisianda, you
could give campaign contributions anytime. You know, the person didn't
have to be running for office. It's incredible. So you
could so then you could call any kind of gift
that you wanted to give a campaign contribution, all sorts
of methods that they had Johnson and the radio station

(06:26):
and the control of that, and how Johnson retained a
monopoly on the radio state. He had the only radio
station and TV station in Austin, Texas in his wife's name,
so ridiculous. And then he would sell people were forced
to by advertising on these radio and the TV station,
and if they didn't, he got you know, they suffered

(06:48):
the consequences and he got money that way. And there
was so many scans and so.

Speaker 1 (06:53):
Yeah, there's always an array of ways that any any
criminal enterprise, no matter what you're looking at, there's always
got to be in a ray of options for laundering
the money. And Johnson certainly had many many options for
doing that. But again, to put him as a mastermind
for something as extreme as the assassination of John F. Kennedy,

(07:16):
there is just no foundation for it. If there was,
that would be one thing. There's plenty of foundation for
all these criminal acts that we're talking about, and we
don't even have We could probably sit and do this
show for the next three months for two hours every
week and not even complete all of the stuff that
Johnson had his fingers in. And Brown and Root, by

(07:39):
the way, just for those who are saying to themselves,
you know, this stuff isn't really relevant nowadays, or it
isn't relevant to any of the current events. I always
try and point out, you know, this is where a
lot of things were seeded Brown and Root. Later on,
you can link it to things like ready for this Haliburton.

Speaker 3 (07:58):
Okay, Well, Halliburton bought Brown and Root the minute that
Herman Brown died in December of nineteen sixty two, and
they didn't want to sell. So George Brown, the surviving brother,
signed the papers for the sale to Halliburton just then.
And so then George stayed on. I don't know the

(08:18):
exact financial arrangements. He was still involved with Brown and
Root at the time that they fortified themselves in Vietnam.
I want to say something else about Brown and Ruth
that is interesting, and it's in my update also for
the Farewell to Justice, and that is that Jim Garrison
was very angry at Lyndon Johnson for not releasing the

(08:41):
files and exhibits of the Warren Commission and looking at
Lyndon Johnson, he also saw as people later pretending like
Caro pretends that even made the discovery that Johnson was
supported by Herman and George Brown, but of course everyone
knew it before that there was no new discovery. Garrison
looked at Johnson and that he saw the Browns, and

(09:04):
Hermann was dead already when Garrison made his identity investigation,
there was George Brown. So the name of George Brown
came up in the Garrison investigation. And some of the
spies that Chuck that you referred to earlier, such as
William Gerbrich, who was a cheap detective who applied the
Port of New Orleans down there, real low figure. Anyway,

(09:25):
he infiltrated. Garrison was very trusting. That was one of
Garrison's faults he had fause this was no sake. And
one of them was he let people in who would
flatter him and who would seem to be committed, and
they were really spying and cheating and stealing documents and
so forth. And so Garbrich is listening to what's going
on in the office and he hears the name George Brown,

(09:48):
and so he reported it to a media assets. THEIA
media asset named Hugh Ainsworth, now Hugh Ainsworth then called
up George Brown and told him his name was mentioned
Aarison was accusing him, which wasn't the case at all
in being involved in the Kennedy assassination. And as a
result of that whole little dance, if you like, Garrison

(10:09):
liked to use that metaphor of the dance. As the
result of all that, guess what the CIA looks at
George Brown, and they know him well, and so we
get the most valuable document that I think we have
on the whole Kennedy assassination in my humble opinion, and
that is a description of the CIA service, the service
to the clandestine services of Herman and George Brown, and

(10:34):
a whole slew a whole list of executives of Brown
and Root and they were all part of CIA starting
in the early nineteen fifties.

Speaker 1 (10:42):
Just whoa take note there that she literally identifies Hughaansworth
as a CIA asset, even though he was a mainstream
journalist and a constant go to because he was also
a witness to the assassination that day, as they represented him.
But what's hilarious is this is interviews in twenty fourteen.

(11:04):
It's not till twenty seventeen that I saw most researchers
willing to admit that huane'sworth was guess what.

Speaker 2 (11:12):
Work and for the Feds baby anyway, just saying.

Speaker 1 (11:18):
Joan did not suffer stupidity or men's words and wouldn't
let me mince words.

Speaker 2 (11:23):
When I talked to her privately, she was rough.

Speaker 1 (11:26):
I was worried she was going to do that to
me on my show, on my debut show, and I
was going to look like.

Speaker 2 (11:30):
A punk swear to God anyway, back to it.

Speaker 3 (11:34):
And as a result, also we get a look in
the same document at various foundations, including the Brown Foundation,
which was a foundation set up by George Brown, I think,
and all of them, and they would use this pass through.
CIA used these foundations as passed throughs to fund domestic activities.

(11:55):
There's things that they were they were not entitled to
according to their the use of the foundations and all
this came out in Congress by a Texas congressman named
Right Patton, who exposed it all. And so there we
have the CIA's own document admitting to the use of
Herman and George Brown which is gold in terms of

(12:16):
how we connect all these things, as Don DeLillo says
in his great novel Underworld, and everything is connected, and then.

Speaker 2 (12:24):
Here we have it. And if not for.

Speaker 3 (12:26):
Garrison, and I think Chuck you were saying earlier, if
not for Garrison Oliver Stone wouldn't have had the film.
And if not for the film, we wouldn't have had
the John F. Kennedy Assassination Records and Collection Act, and
we wouldn't have had all the documents, and none of
these books that have been written about the Kennedy assassination
in the last twenty years would never have been published.

Speaker 1 (12:46):
And the Assassination Records Review Board which was formed as
a result from the outcry of that movie. And again
I say you could trace that back to Garrison's case,
the fact that Stone had publicized it, and all of
that stuff which later gave us that marvelous collection that
is there now at the National Archives. All of these

(13:08):
things give you a blueprint for the anatomy of many
of the intelligence services attempts to subvert many things, especially
the media assets. That stuff is laid out so clearly,
and Hugh Ainsworth just in case my listeners think that
that is a familiar name. Hugh Ainsworth is one of

(13:30):
these guys that has always pulled out. He's still being
pulled out today on all of these Oswald did it
shows as an assassination witness, as an authority on the
real situations that were occurring in Dallas and all these
things because he was a reporter in Dallas at the time.
But as you point out, this guy can be tied
to the agency. He was definitely an asset. That's just

(13:53):
the way it is. And on top of that, you know,
when you examine this stuff that's coming out all the time, again,
this is how it works. It gives you a blueprint
for how it is they turn around and discredit people
and stuff like this. Now, another little point that I
wanted to make here, It's just a small point, is

(14:15):
that you're not talking about Jim Garrison as somebody that
you learned about through the JFK movie or that you
happened to read about because he was an assassination literature
or anything like that. You actually knew the man, didn't you.

Speaker 3 (14:29):
Well, what happened was I mentioned earlier on our program
the Piaiese Sarah newspaper series about the CIA front Permandex
and Central Monday al COMMERCIALI. Well, my husband was living
in London at the time and we weren't married then,
but he he got a set of those newspapers and

(14:52):
he sent them to Jim Garrison in New Orleans. So
in May of nineteen sixty nine, Garrison the chaw Off
course was a in March. In May of nineteen sixty nine,
Garrison invited my husband and me to New Orleans and
he wanted to thank Ralph and like that. So there
we go. We go, and I'd never been to New Orleans.

(15:13):
It's terribly hot down there.

Speaker 2 (15:14):
I have to tell you.

Speaker 3 (15:15):
It's seltry and I was sick, and so the photograph
in a farewell to Justice, I look pretty bedraggled. I'm
sick with fever from the sultry weather. And Garrison and
my husband and I are sitting in the hotel room
and Garrison is talking about the Kennedy assassination. And the
blinds were bothering me. The sun was so somebody working

(15:35):
for the hotel came in to fix the blinds and
he said, hello, mister Garrison. And I found that surprising.
By the way, at the hotel, it was the hotel
monte Leone on Royal Street, and Garrison registered us as
mister and missus Lyndon Baines Johnson, which is really very
funny in the light of everything that has happened since,
even funnier. But when this man said, I said, well, gee,

(15:56):
how come he's saying hello to mister Garrison. I had
no idea. And then when we walked in the street,
it would going to the Garrison's favorite restaurant, which was
called Miran La Louisiana, and people in the street, especially
black people, are saying hello to mister Garrison, and I think,
I don't even know. I did not know that he
was district attorney, which he was. He had been reelect it.

(16:17):
In fact, didn't know, no, no, he was running for
reelection because the election was probably that on him. You
would not know that he was district attorney except for
people are recognizing him in the street because he's talking
all the while about the Kennedy assassination. And I thought
that was all he cared about, really, was the Kennedy assassination. Well,

(16:37):
I knew Garrison's ambition in life was not to be
a district attorney or a lawyer or any of this.
He wanted to be an author, and so he was
writing manuscripts and books about the Kennedy assassination and novels,
and he was sending him to me, and he wanted
to talk three hours at a stretch. And those who
know him are like say Vince Landry and Philadelphia. People

(16:58):
who have been his print know that he could talk
for hours and hours. You didn't say a word, and
he's talking about his writing and what he's thinking and
what he's doing. And this went on for some years,
and then in the early nineteen seventies when he was
charged by the federal government for taking bribes from pimball
operators illegal pinball gambling interests, and he was on trial

(17:18):
and he was framed. It was clear that he was framed,
and I thought, well, this would be a great subject
for a book. I want to write a book about
Garrison and what happened to him and all this. Of course,
Garrison was acquitted both of taking the bribes, and then
he was tried again by the Internal Revenue Service for
not paying taxes on the bribes that he was acquitted
of taking.

Speaker 1 (17:38):
Yeah, most interestingly, he was acquitted of the tax evasion
on the bribes that it had already been established in
the court of law. He hadn't taken That was the
fascinating part of that for me.

Speaker 3 (17:49):
Yes, So anyway, I thought I'll write this book then,
and then I just didn't. I didn't know how to
write a biography. I certainly didn't know enough about any
of this, So you know, I didn't start then Garrison,
and so I saw him again. The last time I
saw Garrison was in nineteen eighty seven, and Oliver Stone
was working on his film, and he was very happy

(18:10):
about that. He was going to play Chief Justice or
a Warren. Garrison played or a Warren in the film,
which he thought was funny, and so he was very young.
But he was just the same in nineteen eighty seven
as he had been in nineteen sixty nine, talking NonStop
about the fact that the brother of Dullas's second in command,

(18:32):
General Charles Cabell, was the mayor of Dallas at the
time of the Kennedy assassination, and the business with the
parade route wasn't changed going over this material that Oswald
never fired a shot, going over this over and over again,
and then he got sick, and I didn't start writing
and doing the research the actual book until nineteen ninety seven.

(18:54):
I wrote many many books since during that time, but
I didn't start again until ninety seven. And the first
person two people together. They were afraid to see me alone.

Speaker 2 (19:04):
I thought.

Speaker 3 (19:04):
The two people that I saw first were Frank Minard,
who was the coroner of Orleans Parish for many many years.
He was the only white man that got re elected
in later years. But Frank told me that when he
would go into the house of somebody, when some collect
a dead body he was a coroner, he would see
three photographs in the black people's homes. There was, predictably

(19:27):
doctor Martin Luther King Junior. There was John F. Kennedy,
and there was Jim Garrison. These are the people that
were that were most admired. And so Frank told me
Nana and lou Aivan was the other person that was
with him, and they began to tell me about Jim Garrison,
what he was like in his life, and and it

(19:48):
was funny. I think one of the things that I
missed in the Oliver Stone film that was was the
humor of Garrison. That's sardonic irony, and I love the line.
I ope my favorite rong it still is the line
of Garrison where he says was talking about in his
investigation and being in the investigation, and he said, I
thought I was living in the country I was born in,

(20:10):
and the country that he was born in was a
country with civil liberties with us, that with justice, justice
under the law, and that you don't have a country,
for example, in which when he charged Clay Shaw with
perjury after the Shaw trial, it went into federal court,
which I had no business. It was a state Louisiana
matter perjury. It's not a federal crime. But somehow it
got into federal court and it was dismissed because Shaw

(20:33):
lied on the stand in the trial and he said
that he didn't know Oswald and he didn't know David Ferry.
And we have ten witnesses or more. There was some
that didn't compere at the trial, black and white, who
said that they saw Shaw and this is very important
to Shaw and Ferry and Oswald driving in a black
Cadillac up to Jackson and Clinton, Louisiana, north of Baton

(20:56):
Rouge and Oswald had gone up there there to Clintlinton
to vote and to figure out what Garrison see.

Speaker 1 (21:06):
Now, this interview continues for quite a while more, and
if you want the whole thing, by all means, go
ahead and email me.

Speaker 2 (21:13):
I'll be a lot happier if you.

Speaker 1 (21:15):
Know supporters that have supported me before, email me to
request if you want a copy of this if you
didn't already, get it through the archives or whatever else,
or get it, you know, in a replace somewhere, or
get that upgraded version of it I put out a
couple of years ago. I'll be more than happy to
send you the best version of it that I have
a copy of and fire it on off to you

(21:37):
via email at least for well the remainder of July,
which is as long as I'm sure that I'll be
able to maintain my email storage account.

Speaker 2 (21:47):
But we'll see what happens.

Speaker 1 (21:49):
Anyway, we're going to take a little break here, and
as we do, I'm going to come back and play
another piece from a separate interview with Joan, and we'll
continue this particular tribute to Joan Mellon, the author of
many many books on the Ocelli effect.

Speaker 4 (22:09):
Stick around, revel level, through, Okay, through break Through.

Speaker 5 (22:51):
This is James Corbett corpor Report dot Com, and you're
listening to the effect at dot com.

Speaker 6 (22:59):
What I Do revelation through conversation in a radio show
slash podcast. You want the good news, listen to the
o'helly effect. Check o'celly is the most underrated voice in
all media, news, education, and entertainment. The daily bread from

(23:23):
o'ceelly dot com. Go there, save yourself from ignorance ochelly
dot com. But we all agreed to put o'elly dot
com on and listen to the o'helly effect. Revelation through
conversation o'helly dot com.

Speaker 7 (23:43):
Gee Baseline crowds raise the strings, black smul bleed, kick trunk,

(24:11):
crushed on snaps from the beats.

Speaker 4 (24:13):
Green.

Speaker 7 (24:15):
Grass, creams, loud raise a cuts through the night, matosap
and blues bleed dice in a fighter. They are crashed
with fire, rhythms off the change, sweat hits the stage,
pleasure born from pain, saxophone whales, shot like a fang,
hip hop bloke.

Speaker 8 (24:32):
Plin were chaos, sun chained, infernal roars, let the boy,
John Soon, crashing beats, pain o sonic too, metal grime,
soul breaks in Sooo, horns of madness, screaming boo.

Speaker 5 (24:57):
Rolt Halo, fast what Grandam is h from nuklear weapons
and other things.

Speaker 2 (25:02):
Like lots of lord urullium is right?

Speaker 9 (25:05):
Bad things we have the things have Donna with Ura, including.

Speaker 2 (25:08):
Some bad things. Look for a holocaust ronium is right?

Speaker 9 (25:12):
Go ahead call it the truth about the Jafay assassination.

Speaker 2 (25:15):
Right, Well, what do you want to know?

Speaker 1 (25:16):
Dy Baker's wild claim? Oswald girlfriend, he knew Ruby and
Barry answer weapons?

Speaker 10 (25:21):
Really?

Speaker 1 (25:22):
I imagine I could claim I have four wheels. It
doesn't make me a wagon, but okay.

Speaker 11 (25:26):
Oswald on the building and I'm trying to prevent the
murder of John Kennedy. Come on now, has a real
effort on the day of Hay assassination.

Speaker 1 (25:32):
Book into her claim. Go to Amazon dot com enter
Judith Baker in her own words. You'll get the results
for a digital copy of a book where Walt Brown
utilizes her own words and the known evidence in the
case to get at well a different perspective. Let's say
you can get Judith Barry Baker in her own words

(25:52):
from the author himself, signed if you request it by
contacting doctor Brown at k I as jfk at a
dot com. It's a fun book and it actually dissects
the many, many fantastic claims Judith Barry Baker in her
own words, Thank you Information.

Speaker 11 (26:10):
The War State by Michael Swanson explains the great national
transformation that took place and put the Kennedy presidency in
the context of the times, and reveals never before published
information about the Cuban missile crisis. President Kennedy would not
have been assassinated if he had been president two hundred
years ago. His assassination took place in the context of
the Cold War and the rise of the national security state.

(26:33):
Before World War II, the United States was a continental republic.
In the decade that followed, it became an imperial superpower.
Generals such as Curtis LeMay not only wanted to invade Cuba,
but knew that there were short range missiles on the
island armed with nuclear warheads that they could not destroy
because they were on mobile launchers. Their invasion could have
led to a Third World War, and they wanted to

(26:55):
go to war anyway. The War State by Michael Swanson
reveals wa and we'll show you what President Kennedy was
up against.

Speaker 2 (27:02):
For more information, the Warstate dot Com. My name is
Alex Dedule.

Speaker 5 (27:14):
I'm gonna turn you out, Phara and Pharah and I
practice personal injury law.

Speaker 12 (27:18):
I'm from.

Speaker 9 (27:37):
Revelation through Conversation.

Speaker 1 (27:52):
Second segment of The O'Kelly Effect, Part two, tribute to
Joan Mellon, and we're gonna get straight on into it
within your interview from twenty eighteen. And this is regarding
a different circumstance.

Speaker 2 (28:05):
How about this. It looks like it's hour number two from.

Speaker 1 (28:10):
The Let's See Now October twenty sixth, twenty eighteen interview
with Joan Mellon regarding the USS Liberty and her book
Blood in the Water. Anyway, it's the second hour, and
I think I was on American Freedom Radio at this time.

Speaker 2 (28:27):
I don't really remember. Now, maybe I wasn't. I don't know.

Speaker 1 (28:33):
I guess we'll have to listen and find out. Let's see,
because I probably announced it at the beginning of the hour,
if that's what happened. But I haven't listened to this.
I'm listening to it along with you guys, because I
just randomly selected these things. And well, I mean, truthfully,
I wanted to play part of the first interview, at
least that I did with her, but I wanted to

(28:54):
follow up with something else, and I chose this at random,
So hopefully this works out for you guys, and you
enjoy it. I know it'll be packed with information, just
like the other piece was. And again it's look July
tenth of twenty twenty five, and unfortunately Joan Mellon is
no longer on this planet with us, so hopefully this
sound quality is a little better too, and maybe my

(29:16):
delivery will have improved in a couple of years there,
because now I'm more than four and a half years
deep into my broadcast career.

Speaker 2 (29:24):
On this clip, right.

Speaker 1 (29:33):
From after we repeat to bring my brother back to
where I'm coming from.

Speaker 9 (29:40):
Now, treat joy again.

Speaker 13 (29:47):
That's all.

Speaker 9 (29:50):
That's all. That's all.

Speaker 1 (29:57):
Second Hour The Ocelli Effect begins now here to Shelley
dot Com, but also heard a variety of other affiliates.
We do appreciate all of you for tuning in. Anyway,
if you're catching this in podcast form, you're going to
need to refer to the show notes to find out
where you can pre order the book, which is by
my guest tonight, Joan Mellan, the author, but she's a

(30:19):
lot more than an author.

Speaker 2 (30:20):
I'll tell you.

Speaker 1 (30:21):
It's listen I'm gonna include a link to joanmellon dot
com so you can go and read about the author
if you like a bit. I'm going to also include
the link to pre order the book, which is Blood
in the Water how the US and Israel conspired to
ambush the USS Liberty, which is the topic tonight. But

(30:44):
of course Joan's written about a great many other topics,
and as I said before, she's been on the show
quite a few times, and I always am happy and
learn something every time Joan is on the show.

Speaker 10 (30:55):
I've heard got to mention the name, Chuck. We need
we need to mention the name of the publisher, Prometheus Books.

Speaker 2 (31:03):
Prometheus is publishing this.

Speaker 1 (31:04):
Okay, I didn't even notice that, to be honest, because
you've actually worked with several publishers over the years.

Speaker 10 (31:09):
Yeah, no, I guess. And you know, whoever wants to
do a topic this publisher Prometheus Books. They like to
do books of historical events that are not solved, that
people don't know about, and this is a perfect book
for them because it's an open story. People still don't
know exactly what happened, and that's partly because they don't

(31:31):
want it. They're afraid of the material. It's very goes
right to the root of the American imperial enterprise, if
you want to put it that way, and the relationship
of US and Israel. It's like a taboo topic along
with the Kennedy assassination.

Speaker 2 (31:45):
Well, there's a whole bunch of taboo topics in here.

Speaker 1 (31:48):
First of all, to cast dispersions on Lyndon Bings Johnson
is apparently not in vogue at the moment, you know, because,
as you said earlier in this discussion, his current official biographers,
what are they doing but whitewashing his entire existence.

Speaker 10 (32:04):
And I know that I was very friendly in the past,
maybe in the eighties with Robert Carow. I even bought
at one point, I was invited to his birthday party
and I bought a cake, a huge cake in the
shape of the LBJ ranch with cows and horses and
cowboys and it was and it was a cake. So

(32:26):
I mean, I really I knew him quite well, And
at that time I didn't know any of this, and
I didn't really know until recently. Really he's a depth
to which he's covered up. But those people who have
read his most recent book realized he's distorted the Kennedy
He had to write about the Kennedy assassination. There was
no way around that. And there he gives the official

(32:48):
Warren Commission story, and that's just been't disproved over and
over again. So he just was terrified of the subject, obviously.
And I just wonder his new book volume would be
covering nineteen sixty seven and would be covering the USS liberty.
But I don't know if it will. Maybe we'll force

(33:09):
them into it just to look at this.

Speaker 1 (33:11):
Well, maybe there'll there'll be a mention there, but I
can guarantee you it's not going to even remotely resemble
what you produced.

Speaker 2 (33:19):
Here in this world.

Speaker 10 (33:20):
No, but he is the object of He and Robert
Dallak as well. They want to rehabilitate Johnson as a
credible figure. And it's part of protecting the mainstream politics
of the country. If you have a president as a murderer,
as in the case of Lyndon Johnson, and I'm not
talking about his killing Kennedy here, he is really responsible

(33:43):
for the deaths of all those people, and many of them,
maybe half of them at least, that the planes had
been allowed to go and go to the site of
where the ship was being attacked. Some lives there certainly
could have been saved. So he abandoned American sailors on
him in the field of battle that they hadn't sort

(34:03):
of after themselves and got away with it, didn't he well?
And even when let me just say this, even the sailors,
the survivors actually filed a war crime report against Israel
in two thousand and four, which is something that when
you want to file that in the military, you have

(34:24):
to deposit it at the Pentagon. And they never answered.
It was never answered. But the petition itself does not
mention Lindon Johnson. And I asked the author of the
petition name who was one of the people in the
Air Force who actually was aware of the liberty incident
at the time, with Wyndon Johnson's name on this, as

(34:50):
he certainly committed war crimes, and he hung up. He
wouldn't talk to me, and he wouldn't see me. And
this was on the phone, and.

Speaker 2 (34:58):
What could you do, right?

Speaker 1 (35:03):
I actually have a PDF of something that is dated
and listed as war crimes committed against the US military
personnel June eighth, nineteen sixty seven, and it was submitted
to the Secretary of the Army.

Speaker 10 (35:19):
Oh, yes you have. That's the petition that the Liberty
Veterans Association filed and the war crime petition.

Speaker 1 (35:28):
That's right, right, what I'm referring to exactly, I'm going
to put a link to that along with this show,
and also it's in the live chat room. You can
read it for yourself. It was actually filed according to
this in two thousand and five. Let's see, actually on
June eighth, two thousand and five. Indeed, so wow, almost

(35:50):
forty years later, thirty eight years after the fact, they
filed this and as you said, it has not been answered.

Speaker 10 (35:58):
Right, were answered and there was there have been books
about an international law that have you know, discussed all
the violations and including one by a person named Walter Jacobson.
He was in the Navy and uh Lisle the violations

(36:18):
and war crimes and suddenly h to blow up the lifeboats. See,
they had released the lifeboats into the water because the
captain had actually in the midst of the attack, had
had ordered them to abandon ship, and so so then
they slew these were they let the lifeboats inflate in

(36:39):
order to get to save some people if the ship
is going to sink any lifeboats and the Israelis uh,
they they took the machine gun, the life rafts so
that they couldn't be used, and one life raft they
grabbed and they took it to as a souvenir back
to Israel.

Speaker 1 (37:00):
H I wasn't aware that they took a souvenir back
to Israel, but uh I did refer to that earlier.
And as far as I understand, there are multiple aspects
of the Geneva Conventions that that specifically prohibit attacking UH
lifeboats or things which are being utilized to save lives
that are unarmed on a battlefield. I could have swore

(37:23):
there were rules against this, Joan, maybe I'm mistaken.

Speaker 10 (37:28):
Well, no, I think that this is definitely prohibited, prohibited. Yeah,
so you know, people do what they do, and I
think that, you know, I don't want to get into
the Israeli politics too much, but you know, I can
understand after the Holocaust, the Israeli position is what rules,

(37:51):
what rules of what humane rules of in law of
in law? They certainly weren't didn't that the Nazi period
destroy all civilities and war.

Speaker 2 (38:06):
We see unfortunately a lot of the stuff that was developed.

Speaker 1 (38:09):
As you know, reasonable agreements between civilized nations allegedly came
after that. Right, A lot of it came after that,
including you know, things like bands on medical testing, on
you know, unwilling subjects, things like this, you know, a whole.

Speaker 10 (38:27):
Round also agent rans and the napalm in order the
murdering of villagers in the Vietnam War. There are guilty.

Speaker 1 (38:37):
But by the way, by the way, one one question
I do have for you. I once read that it
was white phosphorus which was utilized on the liberty. Uh
napalm may have also been dumped on it, But was
white phosphorus also used during.

Speaker 2 (38:51):
The attack, not that I know of.

Speaker 10 (38:53):
It was ny palm. A lot of canisters of napalm
and it ignites and makes fires. You no, you look
at the histories of this scene. I never heard of
why prosphorus, but maybe they meant nay palm when they
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (39:09):
Well, I tell you there's a lot of My point
is there's a lot of confusion about this. And to
be honest with you, I know, the type of research
that you've done, you probably clarify a bunch of things
that you're not even aware of in this book, Uh,
just letting you know that, because there's a lot of speculation.
You notice I said that there might have been Russians
who were present, who were you know, flying around, or

(39:32):
Soviet planes. I have also read that there were other
planes that happened to be in the area that might
have put eyes on it, who might have not been
aware of what was happening. I read about the Israelis
who refused to fire upon the liberty.

Speaker 2 (39:46):
I've read about it.

Speaker 10 (39:48):
Let's get back to the Soviets because I want to
add a point, and that is on the night after June,
the night of June, after the shooting is done, and
they're just wobbling around in the water, ship was listing,
you know, at ten degrees.

Speaker 1 (40:03):
I think, well, let's let's paint the entire picture. It's crippled.
It's got a forty foot hole in it. You know,
the circumference were the you know, the diameter not sure,
but either way it's forty feet okay. Large hole. Power
is obviously challenged or gone.

Speaker 10 (40:23):
And now the US is not coming, nobody's coming to help,
and they're all alone out there. Nobody's coming. And on
the horizon appears a Soviet ship and the Soviet commander
in English sends a message to the Liberty do you
need help? And the Liberty answers no, thank you, and

(40:46):
the Soviets say, well, we'll stay here for a few hours,
you know, through the night, just in case you need us,
and they did. Now these people who say, oh, we
don't need it, go away, these are people who were
educated in the Cold War, and the Cold War thinking
is Soviets are no good and we don't want anything

(41:10):
to do with your the enemy. But the fact is
that the Soviets behaved impeccably throughout the story. And I
traced the Soviet presence in the Mediterranean in relation to
the Liberty throughout the book, so I can tell you
they appear and the Soviets were doing the same thing.
They had surveillance ships, so they understood. And then there's

(41:33):
a whole story that I have about the Soviet submarine
that somehow on that submarine they developed a week of mercury,
and the men on that submarine were dying and sick
and throwing up whatever. And the captain wires Moscow and says,
I want to come back and bring these people to
the hospital, and they thought that this was so serious

(41:54):
a situation that they said no. So that's another aspect
does the story Well, yeah.

Speaker 1 (42:03):
There's a lot of considerations there because the Soviets to
become entangled in this now could you know a lot
of things could be misconstrued or misrepresented later on. It's
actually kind of dangerous for that Soviet captain who have
even offered assistance given the uh you know, I mean
on the.

Speaker 10 (42:20):
Night before when on the night after the attack, right, yes,
but I mean you could see they have a good
spy system too, and they could see what was going on.

Speaker 1 (42:32):
Here's here's actually a question from a live listener, which
which I think is a good one. Were the men
that you spoke to that were on the ship that survived,
were they immediately aware that they were attacked by Israeli assets?

Speaker 10 (42:49):
Yes, well that's a very good question. Well, on the
same day as the attack, late in the afternoon is
said they did they accepted responsible vility and they said
they did it and it was a mistake and it
was an accident, and they did so the same day
they took responsibility. They wanted to see. I think it's
it's when you look at the political thing. You realize

(43:11):
that they took the responsibility to take any any chance
away that the people could begin to blame the United
States for this in some way. But they immediately stepped forward.
And they've kept quiet about this for all these years,
fifty years they have, and they've really covered for the
United States on this ship, on this business, and Israel

(43:34):
has covered for them. You see, it was no one's
neither of their interests to tell the truth. And the
United States has worked hard on every president since Johnson
to keep up the covert cover up and not to
get into this. And many sailors have called their representatives
and senators and asked for help to get it. They

(43:55):
wanted calling for a new investigation because the first naval inquiry,
which is the only one, was fraud. And so Dave
was lived in Vermont at the time, so you know
who his United States senator was. So this United States
senator answers the phone as he was wont to do,
and Bernie Sanders says, I don't, I don't want. I

(44:18):
can't get involved with that. And then the other senator
was Patrick Ley, and he also said I can't get
involved with that. Well, Dave then said to Bernie Sanders, Listen,
you don't have to do that, because I have I
know a rabbi who's very simple, sympathetic to the liberty,
and you can do it through him. And and and

(44:42):
Sanders said that isn't appropriate either. His phrase was, it
isn't appropriate, which is sort of kind of makes you
a little bit down on Bernie Sanders. And what if
you have to lose. He's an older man now, And
why can't you tell the truth and why can't it
stand up for people? And but of course if you do,
you know you're out of politics. Because his alias have

(45:04):
a very strong robby it's called APAC, AIPAC, and they
will destroy you and make you lose an election. One
of the people that happened to was the son of
Adelais Stevenson, Adle Stevenson, the one that ran against Prisident Eisenhower,
and he was at the time in the United States
Senate and he wanted to run for governor of Illinois,

(45:27):
and he ran for governor and he lost by a
tiny bit. But the point the APAC really came.

Speaker 4 (45:33):
Out and he.

Speaker 10 (45:36):
He lost.

Speaker 1 (45:38):
Well, it's no strange coincidence or accident that even in
twenty sixteen, we observed every viable presidential candidate, including the
guy who's in office now, went before.

Speaker 2 (45:50):
Apak and pledged for it. They would do the right thing.

Speaker 1 (45:53):
See, those are very powerful, that's the American Israeli Political
Action Committee and the extremely powerful. And I have this
funny feeling that they certainly wouldn't want to pick at
this scam.

Speaker 2 (46:08):
That's really the way that they look.

Speaker 10 (46:10):
This is very important. And when I call various Israeli writers,
including one name Avenir Kohane, who had written the book
Israel and the Bomb so which they've had since the sixties,
it's another part of the story. And President Kennedy gets
involved with that anyway. I called him, I asked him

(46:31):
about the liberty and he said, it's a comedy of ARUs.

Speaker 2 (46:35):
Comedy of the comedy of Wow.

Speaker 1 (46:38):
You know, they see that's a weird thing because in
recent years, again the concept that maybe the Masade had
Kennedy killed is you know, is popularized in certain circles
at this point over the fact that there was a
problem with the you know, giving the nukes.

Speaker 2 (46:57):
Basically, I mean, let's just cut to the chase.

Speaker 10 (47:00):
We didn't have to give them nukes. They have had
nukes since Kennedy's day.

Speaker 2 (47:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 10 (47:05):
Well, and not only nukes, you know, weapons, not just
the material but the actual weapons. They've had nuclear weapons
since nineteen sixty three.

Speaker 2 (47:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (47:15):
Right.

Speaker 2 (47:16):
But the point is right to.

Speaker 10 (47:17):
President Kennedy, Yeah, she won't Paris, that is, it will
not be the first country in the Middle East to
get nuclear weapons. And of course they were, they had them. Well,
and that's also a taboo, another taboo subject. You're not
going to hear that.

Speaker 1 (47:36):
Well, but that's why I bring it up right here
and now, because the bottom line is, look, I have
no qualms with bringing up realities. And people talk about
this as being a motive for why the Masade wanted
to kill JFK. The problem is there would be no
need for it because they already had this stuff.

Speaker 10 (47:55):
I mean, we know, well, that's right, that's right. And
they also outsmarted Kennedy. And when he sent inspectors to
you know, there was kept to do inspections of these places.
They created new elevators, they build new buildings. They were
they were able. They said it was a holiday. Somehow
nobody got to see anything, right, so they didn't they

(48:15):
didn't need to kill him. They could out smart at
him and.

Speaker 1 (48:18):
Them us right well exactly, So that's why that whole
assertion falls apart on its face.

Speaker 2 (48:25):
See and there you go, guys. I mean, what can
I say except that this conversation goes on and on.
And I'll tell you what. Somebody, and I don't know who,
but posted this show.

Speaker 1 (48:38):
I don't know the guy.

Speaker 2 (48:40):
He just decided for his own interests to post half
of my interview with Joan Mellan on YouTube.

Speaker 1 (48:48):
Other people could post my stuff on YouTube, but not me,
So you know, it's like other people can have PayPal accounts.

Speaker 2 (48:55):
And I don't anymore. Anyway, it is what it is.

Speaker 1 (49:01):
I put a link in the live chat room and
also with the show notes if you want to help
out and try and keep us running. I'm trying to
pay the small bills as they come in with other means,
but I used to do everything through PayPal, and now
a whole lot of loss, all your memberships, all that
stuff is going to be gone. I'm not going to
be able to collect it. So you know, I'm not

(49:23):
going to cancel anybody's membership on the website. It's not
your fault that.

Speaker 2 (49:26):
You can't pay it.

Speaker 1 (49:27):
So the memberships are frozen until I come up with
a solution there. But anyway, I'm going to do a
separate podcast probably tomorrow night about this situation with PayPal
and a few other things before we do the Friday
night calling show that we always do, and I'll be
able to do it this week, but who knows how

(49:48):
long that'll go on for. Also, I'll have a new
episode of the Age of Transitions ready to roll tomorrow
night on o'chelly dot com. No Uncles show, I think,
but I'm not certain of that.

Speaker 2 (50:05):
Anyway.

Speaker 1 (50:06):
We shall see what we see when we see it.
But I wanted to pay tribute to the great author
Joan Mellon, and I'm going to put the like I said,
the link to this guy's YouTube channel, you know, for
no other reason except that you guys can hear the
whole hour, at least the whole second hour of this
discussion on the USS Liberty with the author Joan Mellon,

(50:30):
Blood in the Water.

Speaker 2 (50:33):
There you go.

Speaker 1 (50:34):
So Joan was a friend and somebody I really appreciated. Oh,
in that final little story, right, I started talking about
how she didn't show up for JFK and Dealey Plazid
and all that and didn't show up for the answer
recording and wanted nothing to do with the research community
any longer. And I tried to have a private conversation
with her to get her to just do one last

(50:56):
appearance on Jim Garrison, and you know, considering that we
had gone through the twenty seventeen time period that we
all waited for and never got the documents on and
everything else, and I wanted her to come to Lancer
one more time after you know, Trump didn't release, then
Biden didn't release, then Trump again didn't fully release. And

(51:18):
we've gotten some new documents recently, that's true, but we
still don't have everything, and we still don't have full disclosure.
We still have you know, non communicative and non cooperative
government agencies still in violation of the JFK Records Collection Act,
covering you know, the CYA and also not the CIA,

(51:42):
the CYA if you will, of it all.

Speaker 2 (51:44):
And doing that.

Speaker 1 (51:47):
And for other reasons too, but anyway, who cares, right,
I just wanted to say thanks to Joan, and like
I was saying, we were waiting for those documents, and
I wanted her to do one last present.

Speaker 2 (52:00):
But her whole thing was she kept telling.

Speaker 1 (52:03):
Gabby and other people that were affiliated with Lancer that
she would only do a presentation at the conference if
she could talk about how stupid conferences were and how
counterproductive all this was because the community had become such
trash because.

Speaker 2 (52:20):
Judy Baker qa non trumpy people. She was sick of
it all. And I get it.

Speaker 1 (52:29):
I really do albeit Lancer this year, and we'll see
how it goes. If I make it to the end
of the year and I'm still not homeless by then,
I'll go to Texas on somebody else's dime. If not,
I'll be probably gying to survive somewhere and not able
to be gotten hold of.

Speaker 2 (52:52):
I guess we'll have to stay tuned and see what happens.

Speaker 1 (52:55):
But before any of that goes on, I wanted to
pay tribute to Joan Mellon, who was a great ade author,
intelligent person, great researcher, and absolutely indispensable contributor to the
library of knowledge that is accessible to people regarding a

(53:15):
great many historical events, but especially those of the assassinations
of the sixties, the USS liberty, and various characters that
are ancillary, tangential, or directly connected to those events.

Speaker 2 (53:31):
So Thank you, Joan. I wish yet.

Speaker 1 (53:34):
Stuck around just a little longer, and I guarantee she
had another five books worth of stuff like just laying
around her house. That would have been better than ninety
percent of the authors that put out the junk they
put out. Anyway, much love, Joan, you will be missed.

(53:58):
I am hereli o'celly of you. Those of you who
have supported me, have done what you can over these years.

Speaker 2 (54:06):
You are the effect.

Speaker 13 (54:09):
Good, the use expressed my callers, schools, there anyone else
who happens to get on the air of Jelly dot com.
Do not necessarily reflect the views of the Jelly dot
Com or Jumbo Jelly, and we are not responsible for

(54:31):
any stupidity which might ensue.

Speaker 2 (54:33):
Thank you.

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It didn't, did it?

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