June 26, 2024 • 62 mins
In this episode of The Open Door (June 26), panelists Jim Hanink, Christopher Zehnder, and Valerie Niemeyer discuss the role of spiritual direction. Just what is it? What is the ministry of the spiritual director? Our special and welcome guest is Msgr. Patrick Gaalaas. He is a priest of the Diocese of Tulsa and Eastern Oklahoma. Msgr. Gaalaas retired from parish work in 2022 at the age of 75. But “retirement” has led to “redirection.” He has worked as a spiritual director at Conception Seminary College in Missouri for the past two years. (Full disclosure: Monsignor has known Jim Hanink from the time they were fellow college seminarians at Assumption Seminary in San Antonio, Texas.) Msgr. Gaalaas spent his final four years in the seminary at the American College at the University of Louvain in Belgium. There he earned a bachelor’s degree in Sacred Theology and a master’s degree in Moral and Religious Sciences. Among the questions we’ll be asking are the following.
- You moved from parish work to a Benedictine Abbey. Is there a distinctive Benedictine spirituality?
- Spiritual direction pairs a spiritual director with a person interested in direction. But how does the average Catholic, if there is such a creature, know whether to seek spiritual direction?
- What’s the difference between spiritual direction and psychological counselling?
- How does one go about finding a spiritual director? What might one expect if one Google searched “spiritual direction near me”?
- How does one become a spiritual director? Who can become a spiritual director?
- Is a personal calling from God requisite for being a spiritual director?
- Do spiritual directors ordinarily have diocesan recognition?
- What sort of direction do spiritual directors themselves have?
- Might we say that the Holy Spirit is at the center of spiritual direction?
- What are some signs that spiritual direction is going well? Or is not going well?
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
You're listening to WCAT radio your homefor authentic Catholic programming. Please join us
at the Open Door. We discusssolidarity, subsidiarity, economic democracy, in
non violence in light of Catholic socialteaching. We explore how to move from
discussion to political change. Culture andpolitics, to be sure, are interwoven.
(00:24):
So we care deeply about education andthe arts. Our questions often lead
us to report on the projects andpromise of the American Solidarity Party. Welcome
to the Open Door. Jimpanic herewith fellow panelists Valerie Niemeyer and Christopher Zender.
(00:44):
Today we'll be talking about the roleof spiritual direction. Just what is
it? What is the ministry ofthe spiritual director? Our special and welcome
guest as Monsignor Patrick Gallis. Heis a priest of the Diocese of Tulsa
(01:07):
and Eastern Oklahoma. Monsignor Gallis retiredfrom parish work, well sort of retired
in twenty twenty two at the tenderage of seventy five, but retirement has
led to redirection. He served nowas spiritual director at Conception Seminary College in
(01:30):
Missouri for the past two years.Full disclosure, Monsignor has known me from
the time all back of the daywhen we were fellow College seminary as an
Assumption seminary in San Antonio, Texas. Monsignor Gallis spent his final four years
(01:57):
in the seminary at the American Collegeat the University of Louvain and Belgium.
There he earned a bachelor's degree inSacred theology and a master's degree in Moral
and Religious sciences. As always,let's begin in fair come, Holy Spirit,
(02:20):
fill the hearts of your faithful,and kindle in them the fire of
your love. Send forth your spirit, and they shall be created, and
you shall renew the face of theearth. God, who have taught the
hearts of the faithful by the lightof the Holy Spirit, grant that in
the same spirit we may be trulywise and never rejoice in His consolation through
(02:47):
Christ, our Lord Aimen. Letsignor you move from parish work to a
Benedictine abbey. Is there a distinctiveBenedictine spirituality? Well, yes, Jim,
(03:08):
there certainly is. It's very regulated, and the whole day is divided,
as you know, and probably mostof the audience knows that the day
is divided into periods of prayer insilence. They've given themselves over to the
praise of God and that's their wholeambition. And it shows now there's no
(03:34):
quod action, is there really?Maybe with the Benedictine option, that's just
the benedict option, though. Well, they're about forty five strong in that
community, and they seem to begrowing, and they're certainly engaged with the
world. But yeah, I thinkthat addict option certainly involves prayer, and
(04:02):
they're into that with their whole heart. So it's a pleasure to be with
them. And I tell everybody thatbeing there at Conception for me is like
being on a perpetual retreat. It'svery quiet, very prayerful, very structured.
Now one last item on this Benedictinetheme. You moved to a community
(04:30):
that's vowed to stability. Benedictines takea vow of stability, don't they They
do, Yeah, yeah, butthey make exceptions and you know, as
the Lord leads them. They've giventwo of their abbots to the job of
(04:51):
being abbit Primate of the Benedictine world. Presently, Primate Abbott greg Ray is
concluding his tenure is the primate andhe'll be returning to Conception Abbey soon,
so they're never far from home.In a way, it's of note that
(05:17):
the Benedictine Abbey here in Los Angeles, Saint Andrews is here because the Benedictines
got kicked out of China. Whoa, so they came all the way here.
They couldn't practice stability in China.They wouldn't be allowed, wanted to
(05:38):
be Yes, that's true, well, Valerie, yes, mon signior.
So spiritual direction appairs an interested personwith a spiritual director who can direct them.
For the average Catholic, though,if there is such a creature,
(05:58):
how would they know if they are, if they should seek a spiritual direction,
or if that would be for them? Well, Valerie, you know,
I was a pastor for a lotof years, and toward the the
end of my priestly perish career,a number of people would come and they
just want to talk about their spirituallife. They felt a tug, you
(06:24):
know, maybe there's something more Icould be doing. Maybe something was mentioned
in a homily or in a talk, and they thought, well, yeah,
maybe I could do with conversation withwith that priest. So I was
doing some spiritual direction even as apastor and and rather enjoyed it. And
(06:47):
I hope, I hope the folksthat came to me got some benefit from
it. We'll see, God knows, Yeah, and I would I would
hope that that's a reality for youknow, you'd like to see more of
that, right for pastors and thereand their flock, that there would be
that sort of informal if you will, or just kind of impromptu, Hey,
(07:10):
I'd like to talk to you.And now, is at what point
does it become spiritual direction maybe ona higher level where you you know,
is there a difference between spiritual directdirection in quotes and what you were doing
as a pastor there for example?And when does somebody want to see that?
Yeah, well, you know,it would begin with just to desire
(07:32):
to have some conversation with the priest, and then it might develop from there.
It might be a one off.They might want to come back in
a week or a month or occasionally, and so we just see what the
Lord was leading them to do.I wouldn't push them into spiritual direction,
(07:56):
but yeah, I think there areways in which a person's spiritual life can
be helped strengthened. Maybe they don'tknow of all the things that you know,
I've had a chance to become acquaintedwith as a priest, some great
books, some wonderful saints with aflair for helping people grow to love God
(08:22):
better and more completely. So Iwould typically I introduce them to the saints,
the people that nourished my spiritual lifefor so many years, you know,
Valerie, For a long time,I did not have a spiritual director
myself. I did in a seminary, but then as a priest, I
(08:48):
didn't. I belonged to a priestprayer group, and I guess you could
say that we helped each other along way, but it wasn't formal spiritual
direction, and I found I founda great nourishment for my spiritual life and
(09:09):
reading books by saints like Saint Francis, to Salts Saint Ignatius of Loyola,
and a wonderful Jesuit priest named JeanPierre de Cussa of a book called Abandonment
the Divine Providence, which I foundtransformative in my own life and the lives
(09:33):
of others, typically women. HWell, that's helpful. I think for
people to know that there's kind ofa spectrum. It doesn't have to be
some formalized regular thing in it,and it doesn't even necessarily have to be
with a priest. So thank youfor clarifying. Yeah, you're welcome.
Yeah, there are many spiritual directorswho aren't priests. Some dioceses had programs
(09:54):
to train lay people to be spiritualdirectors, have a flair for it.
You know, maybe women would ratherspeak to a woman and uh, men
to a man. You never know, mm hmm, God Leeds, do
you have a spiritual director? Ihave had at times in the past.
(10:16):
I've never you know, I'm amom of six kids, six eighteen and
time I've done more more reading alongthe lines of what you mentioned, just
the Saints and a lot of goodspiritual books, but finding the time to
have a regular appointment, and it'sbeen challenging, I can imagine. So
(10:37):
what books found helpful? I tooenjoyed Sat Francis to sales. You know,
he has a lot of good devotion. What's that true? What's the
book the famous book by him inproduction Introduction to Introductions about Life, correct
introduction. That was very helpful tome, And yeah, I believe in
(11:01):
Love. It was a huge onefor me. Yeah, but a lot
through through the through the years.Thanks be to God, a reliable source
has told me that he gives hisu blessing to Chess in that book.
I don't know that uh sech Atwo Timothy to move from Saint Francis to
(11:24):
Sales to Scripture itself says take alittle wine, and not just for your
health. Yes, sometimes my directionon that particular citation, there are times
when a glass of wine helps mykids have a better evening too, if
I have one, take a littleof the edge off. Christopher, you're
(11:48):
you're looking? Will you put yourpipe down? Why did you put your
pipe down? More sage with thatpipe in hand? If I'm a stage
of the pipe and hand and stayedwithout a pipehand? What what is your
question for bond Savior? But I'dlike to get a better sense of what
(12:09):
you mean by a spiritual director,because when I first became a Catholic,
way back in nineteen eighty three,I was in college and I had what
I probably pretentiously called a confessor,and I would go go to confession to
him and then we talk about things. But if layman could be spiritual directors,
obviously can't go to confession to them. So that's one side. Is
(12:31):
there a difference beween a confessor andspiritual director? Second, maybe the other
end of things. Is there adifference between a confessor and some in a
psychology, psychology, a psychological counselor. Yeah, no, yes, I
think there's a difference between the three. Your purpose as a confessor is to
(12:58):
absolve a person since and I've alwaysfound in my experience as a priest that
to be one of the most consolingthings I do. It's not only helpful,
of course, for the penitent,but it's also extremely helpful for the
confessor. I think some of thesame skills that listening are important for a
(13:28):
confessors or a spiritual director as forpsychological counselor. I look at what I
do as a spiritual director as somethingthat kin to being a spiritual coach.
The coach is someone who knows thegame, who's been at it for a
(13:50):
while, and it understands where aperson is at and what that person might
be capable of. I do tryto listen not only to the direct tee,
(14:11):
as you might say, but alsoto the promptings of the Holy Spirit.
I think that's terribly important. Whateverthe Holy Spirit might lead me to
inquire about or speak of would wouldbe totally, absolutely important, not only
(14:33):
in spiritual direction, but also asa confessor. So there are some similarities,
but a psychologist deals pretty much simplywith the psyche and not with the
soul. As such, the totalperson and the confessor is primarily there to
(14:56):
hear the confession of sins and tohave all by the grace and power con
as you I'm sure experienced, right. You know, it was very helpful
for me when I was I wasa new content from Lutheranism. When you
grew up in a church to teachhis total depravity, and then you enter
(15:16):
the Catholic Church and you have amuch stricter morality, it kind of it's
hard to it's hard to adjudicate thatsituation. Is I had a very good
confessor who knew just what what's howto how to approach it. Curiously,
we talked about lay of people beingconfessors. Now I imagine the Saint Benedict
(15:37):
was layman. Practice that might correctabout that. Yeah, I mean tech
he wasn't. He wasn't a cleric. Saint Francis wasn't a cleric, but
I'm sure they both did what wecall spiritual direction, but having like a
regularized kind of program for spiritual directionby diocese. For Layman is that that
seems like it's strictually something rather new. It is. Yeah, I'd say
(16:00):
in the last twenty years or so, it seems to be maybe not as
much now as there was a fewyears ago an interest in becoming involved in
spiritual direction. Just a slight correction. Chris, Saint Francis of ass was
(16:23):
a deacon. Eventually Sat Francis theSales was a bishop, and when I
became introduced to him, I struckgold and just a marvelous person. I
hope to meet him one day andhappened. If I'm good enough. Ye.
(16:51):
Saint Francis said something about spiritual directorsthat I think it's important to to
understand, and Saint Theresa of Avilaalso, Saint Theresa of Avila said that
a good spiritual director is one ina thousand, one in a thousand,
(17:15):
and Saint Francis the Sale said,ah, good spiritual director is one in
ten thousand. So not everybody whopulls themselves out to be a spiritual director
is really good at it or hM. And so yeah, you'd best
(17:38):
be cautious and prayerful about discerning whowill be given some say in your spiritual
life. I think a good dealof prayers should go into it and discernment.
Thank you to me that there probablyare not almost certainly not ten thousand
(18:06):
spiritual directors in Los Angeles, whichmeans that there's not one of them.
That's good unless my statistics have beenskewed or other. But maybe they're better
Angelens. You know a lot ofpeople nowadays google for what they're trying to
(18:33):
secure to find what do you supposewhat happen if I googled spiritual direction near
me? My goodness, I don'tknow that would be interesting. Well,
this is Los Angeles, so allbets are often very few should be made
(18:59):
in the first place. However,maybe I ought to include the word Christian
in there. I don't know.Well, when I Google a spiritual director
near me, I mostly got spiritualistsand various types of New age people.
(19:25):
And now that I'm i myself inthe very cusp of middle age, I
didn't know that I wanted to dealwith anybody that was new age. But
also I for oh maybe twenty fiveyears, my wife and I have been
lay missionaries of charity, and wemeet at the missionary of charity houses brothers
(19:52):
sometimes sisters for the most part.And our group asked the I heard,
is time finding a spiritual director.We've had a few, and they've always
been hard to find, and theypretty much haven't stayed, or when they
(20:15):
have stayed, then within a fewyears they get transferred and it's just too
far. So I think that alot of people wonder about could I really
get a spiritual director? And veryoftentimes people in parishes again here in Los
(20:38):
Angeles have the experience of pastors,associate pastors who have more work to do
than they could possibly manage already,and so they're hesitant to ask them to
be spiritual directors. So, havingdug this hole, oh would you help
(21:02):
somebody let me get out of it? I don't want you. And I
think probably just you know, prayfor a good one, and God sent
you a good, a good,solid spiritual director for your group. I
would suppose that you might know,or some of your little circle would know,
(21:26):
some priests they've been struck by,and I may have said something in
a homily that led them to thinkthat this priest might have a spiritual life
of his own and invite him toconsider coming to one of your meetings.
(21:49):
I'm not sure that those who proposedthemselves to be spiritual directors are the best
ones to choose from. It mightbe the more reluctant and quiet types that
I want to think about. Theremight be reserves of spiritual riches there that
(22:11):
just are are hidden because of thatpriest's I don't know, humility. I
think that would be an important qualityin the spiritual director. So yeah,
just you know, tell you agood one. Maybe we could fly someone
(22:33):
in from Missouri or well, Iknow, I know a monk who's my
spiritual director now at Conception. Isa wonderful fellow. Your father's saved,
you're nacky, mm hmm, wonderfulfellow. He's in his eighties. A
little wisdom there. It might begood to choose someone of your own vintage
(22:59):
Jim. I mean that takes usback to Timothy. Yeah, well Vnor
Yeah, I think maybe an olderpriest would be, uh, someone you
might think of selecting, maybe witha little pastoral experience under his belt,
(23:25):
a prayerful person. But you know, Saint Teresa Bavola said she prefer a
spiritual character who knew something as opposedto a priest who was noted for his
piety. So I guess you haveto be somewhat discerning. M hmm.
(23:45):
Well, I think it's interesting whatyou said about Saint Francis and Saint Teresa,
saying how rare a good spiritual directoris. And presumably you know,
in their day, as we said, this is a new trained being trained
in spiritual direction, right, Icould say it's an art of sorts,
right, that's pretty new in asense. I mean, so in their
(24:08):
the choices that they had were allwere probably religious or priests, right for
spiritual direction. So and maybe thatproblem of g we have a lot of
religious We have a lot of priestsout there, but it turns out that
not maybe you know, quite afew of them aren't actually adept or in
tune with the spirit enough to begood spiritual directors. And so maybe you
(24:33):
know, and what you were sayingJim about you know, increasingly priests and
religious are just so busy that fora lay person to have time with them
is kind of a something they can'tnecessarily expect. So this this kind of
development of lay spiritual direction and maybekind of creating a process criteria, something
(24:57):
that might produce consistently better spiritual directorsthat are more available for laity in the
world. It seems like that thatwas an important move of the Holy Spirit
and the Church. And so Iam curious, you know, as far
as prerequisites to somebody, is therea sense that somebody really needs to have
(25:18):
a sense of personal calling from Godto pursue becoming a spiritual director and and
what else would be required maybe forthem to to take that path, what's
involved with that kind of getting upand running with that training. Well,
in my limited experience, Valery,I would say that a good spiritual director
(25:52):
is necessarily someone who hangs out ashingle, say, spiritual direction, but
it's a person that others might seekout for occasional advice and then maybe long
term and continuing council with I didnot seek to be a spiritual director as
(26:19):
pastor when people came to me,and I didn't seek to be a spiritual
director at the seminary. I thoughtmy life would be lived here in Tulson,
filling in for other priests when theywere sick or on vacation. I
got a letter from the director ofSpiritual Formation at Conception Seminary who'd seen an
(26:44):
article about my upcoming retirement in ourDioceisan magazine and he invited me to think
about coming up to Conception to bea spiritual director. At first I thought,
oh no, I wouldn't know whatto do. But the more I
(27:08):
thought about it, the more attractiveit seemed. It would be a kind
of rounding out my clerical career prettymuch as it started in a seminary,
and I'd only be there for twoto three years and you know, wasn't
(27:29):
working out well. There was youknow, no long term contract. In
fact, there's no contract at all. It's just kind of a handshake.
My intent was to take a goodlong course with the IPF Institute for Priestly
(27:51):
Formation at Creating University as to howa person should be a proper spiritual director
for seminarians. But as it turnedout, my social pastor and to return
to the Philippines for exactly the periodof time I was supposed to be away,
so I never did get to takethat course. So I went into
(28:12):
it kind of blindly, and mymotto was simply do no harm. I
didn't want to damage the vocations ofthese young men, and you know,
as it happens, I've had afew things to share with them about their
(28:36):
spiritual lives, and they stayed certainlyenriched minds. So we're all the work
in progress, even spiritual directors.I mean they're not. I need a
spiritual director, you know. Ineed to go back to those saints and
their wonderful books and reread them.And I need, you know, all
(29:00):
the experienced spiritual director of flesh andblood at the place where I'm assigned to
be a spiritual director. So we'reall helping each other along the way.
Very good things I am. I'min Omaha, and so the Institute for
Priestly and I know has been hasbeen a very fruitful ministry for priests.
(29:27):
I've heard a lot of good testimonialsfrom priests who really were helped in their
own cultivation of their spiritual life andrelationship with God and and and their ability
to and their ability to accompany othersin that. So have you met Father
Timothy Gallagher. I haven't met himpersonally, no, but I have listened
(29:49):
to a lot of his a lotof his things, and read a lot
of his books on the on theexercises and kind of living those in daily
life. I have to revisit thoseoff and I've listened. I've listened to
some audio tapes of his fund extremelygood. Yes, But I think I
(30:10):
like the way you illustrate that forpeople, you know, where there's where
there's God's will, there's a waythat God provides for people. They're invited
often and just God makes a wayfor them to become people who direct others
through the fruits of their own ministriesand their relationships. And that's right,
(30:33):
that's right, And I would Iwould say that one one unnecessary quality in
any person you might select as aspiritual director is that that person, I
think, with the church, withthe deep traditions of the Church, and
not be a freethinker or extremely liberalin his or her theological opinions. Terribly
(31:00):
important to be grounded in the tradition, which is a spirit said, sounds
like a good prerequisite. Yeah,Now, Valerie, Nebraska, Christopher Sender
and it's his own fault, it'san Ohio. But even in Ohio there
(31:30):
there are deep thinkers, serious questioners. And so Christopher, you're next,
what's your your next thought for usto consider and for my senior to respond
to mhmm, Well, I'll haveto defend Ohio first. There are there,
There are a few deep thinkers here. There are really are, and
(31:53):
actually a lot of good clergy here. So if I wanted wanted to find
a good spiritual director, that's aclergy, very good, good crop of
especially young men coming out. ButI was thinking, you know, mis
reflecting on my own life as afather, I've actually had to do spiritual
direction myself with my own children.I've done spiritual direction with my wife,
(32:14):
and I guess she's done spiritual directionwith me. Perhaps we actually do have
the grace of vocation dows us withif we're if we're being serious about it,
with living seriously in our Catholic faith. But the grace vocation could actually
the Holy Spirit works to that andactually make some one's spouse or one's father
(32:36):
or mother spiritual director. Well,I think I think iron sharpens iron,
And yeah, you're soulmate of awife is truly the one who is given
to you by God to help youon your road to heaven, and your
(32:59):
God have been made to help heron that same road and together your children.
Absolutely, I think the wisdom thatGod gives to parents and spouses for
one another is inestimable. Thank youearly onto something. The priest did once
(33:22):
tell me that, yeah, becausehe would be overwhelmed with press the spiritual
direction. He said he didn't havethe time for any more directees. But
he actually suggests to a woman hesaid once that she should talk to her
husband. She looked at him likehe was mad. I probably think I
(33:44):
want to talk about my husband.Yeah, probably, so it wasn't your
wife when. I don't know ifshe might have said that at some point.
But where in Ohio? Are youCentral Ohio? Near Columbus. Yeah,
(34:06):
I have a friend in Stupenville orthe Stupenville Diocese. He's a little
town called Woodsfield, Father Timothy Davison. Give him a little shout out.
He has about two and a halfhours from us. So it sounds like
stupid will actually become part of theColumbus diocese. They're talking about a merger.
I know he might might end upthis way too. We have the
(34:30):
Joseph Pontefical College Josephine, and ourbishop is we have a very good bishop
right now. That's Bishop Earl Fernandeztop right. Bishop. So that's wonderful.
Things are looking good in Columbus rightnow. That's great. Glad to
hear it, Glad to hear it. Yeah, my friend Timothy, he
(34:52):
he was from Ohio, from theStupenville area and Donald Police that's where he's
from. And he became a priestin the Diocese of Tulsa, and then
when his parents were aging and inneed of some support, he got permission
from the bishop to move back toOhio, cared for them, and then
(35:15):
when they passed away, he decidedthat maybe he should stick around and be
a priest in a diocese that reallyneeded some help. They didn't have too
many vocations, and so he remainedin snow incardinated in the Stupidville diocese.
Wonderful guy. You know, priestsmeet brother priests to help them along the
(35:40):
way, and tim has been ahelp to me and maybe I've been to
him. So Yeah, one thingI think I've thought that one of the
problems you've had with crises in thepriesthood is that there's isolation of priests from
each other. Yeah, you havethe community of the right well back in
(36:01):
like the Benedictans are the Dominicans.We have in our diases. Here they
have this community they can fall backon. But you don't have that community.
You're just isolated. That could bemake priesthood very very difficult. Well,
there are attempts to overcome that isolation. For the last forty years or
(36:25):
more, perhaps there have been priestgroups that, in one form or another
and help each other find that fraternitythat, by our vocational choice is and
always present. So things like theImaeis groups or Jesus Caritas, which I
(36:49):
was a member of for many,many years, are ways of compensating for
that potential loneliness and isolation that canin flicked the priest. Christopher match the
Dominicans. He's a lay Dominican.Oh I could tell, Yeah, he's
(37:10):
He's step he escaped intomism. Ohyou like Thomas, Oh I do.
Yeah. I'm now reading the uhCommentary on the Gospel of John very slowly.
I don't have a lot of time. But yeah. I was reading
a book It's about life to sayThomas, and the author said, if
(37:34):
you want to be a real youcan't be real Thomas unless you read the
Commentary on the Gospel of John's.I figure, well, I'd better complete
this process. Wow, you've inspiredme. Have you ever read a book
by G. K. Chesterton onSaint Thomas Aquinas, Yeah, I have,
Yeah, our late Dominican group readit. Read it last year.
(37:57):
I think it was Yeah. TiAngel Song, the noted Tomistic historian,
said he thought that was the bestbook ever written about Saint Thomas. Yeah.
He said Chesterton was an extremely hatethinker G K. Chesterd AND's kept
me sane for oh a good sixtyyears. I first encountered him in high
(38:25):
school and he's spent a lifelong superstarin my opinion. M I'm more of
a Bellock man myself. Oh yeah, I like Bellock too. I've got
a couple of books with his signature. And then yeah, I've got a
(38:47):
three page note in his handwriting,which I put out a lot of money
to purchase. And it's amazing howartifacts like that can help you feel close
to somebody you admire. HM.Of course, consider you've got to admit
(39:08):
that you, most of all,most of all are a disciple of Jaques
Maritan. I do my Jock Meretin. I got a kick. I got
on a kick reading his books justa couple of years ago, and extremely
(39:29):
wonderful fellow and well regarded even inthe secular community, helped draft the the
Human Rights Document from the United Nations. And yeah, and Race and his
wife, they were a great pair. When I was not yet at Assumption
(39:53):
Seminary, but more or less headedin that direction, I asked one of
my teachers, who went on tobecome Bishop Robert Rose of Grand Rapids,
Michigan, what might be a goodpreparation for studying philosophy, And lo and
(40:14):
behold, he said, take this, and it was Adventures and Grace and
we have Been Friends Together by RaisaMaretan. Yes, and one of the
things that I certainly remember from thosetwo books that were joined together was a
(40:36):
deep commitment to a christ Like life, And Adventures in Grace was a wonderful
title for one of the books.And We've Been Friends Together fit in perfectly
with Adventures and Grace, And thatwas really the foundation for Jacques's philosophical work.
(41:04):
And there's a union in his lifeof the active and contemplative that I
think is really extraordinary. And youcouldn't tell by looking at him, but
both Valerie and Christopher are activists ofthe first rank, yet they have a
(41:29):
contemplative dimension about them as well.I wonder if you have some thoughts this
could be spontaneous spiritual direction and youcould do some directing for us of how
to fuse the active and the contemplative. Well, well, I don't know
(41:57):
however, God might lead you,Jim. When when I met you,
you were on the activist side,and I remember that you were engaged with
Dorothy Day long before I became afan. And but there was all There
(42:17):
was also also a deep muh.Maybe you notice you said there were other
confused activists. No, it wasyou were. You were extremely thoughtful.
Uh. I admire that in you. I admired it then and you can
(42:43):
see it now. And your wholecareer, you know, has been a
bit on the contemplative side, hasn'tit been. You were a teacher of
philosophy for many years. And youknow when I've said on my retirement,
you might think of this apocryphal ornot. I looked out and I said,
(43:04):
these forty years, nah, artificialpearls before real swine. I said,
enough of that. There are otherpeople retiring, Thank goodness, that's
not just do ah. Yeah.Oh well, well, active and contemplative,
(43:28):
you guys have an important question,Wow, do you refuse the two?
And I guess you just consult withthe Good Lord and see what he
puts them right in front of you. Somebody said something once that struck me
as true at the time and trueever since. There are no such things
(43:50):
as accidental encounters. We don't meetpeople or are confronted with situations totally by
chance or by accident. It's allin God's providence. And I think we
know by an interior tug whether weshould be now more active or now more
(44:15):
contemplative. I don't know retirement ina way as teaching me to discern what
God wants me to do. Here. I am retired from parish work,
but also on vacation from spiritual directionwork at the seminary and summer vacation for
(44:37):
the students, and so it's summervacation for me. So what should I
be doing with these days and weeksand three months even of comparative idleness.
So I've been I've been reading,and in fact, the next book I
intended to read was Adventures in Greece. That's wonderful. That's wonderful. Yeah,
(45:07):
of course, even their controversy emergence, for example, Christopher Zender actually
prefers Charles Charles what's his name,Christopher d'aconic. Ah, Yes, he
prefers Charles d'aconic. Well, notthe writing style. Charles da conna was
(45:28):
a horrible writer. Christopher writes textbooksand his whole goal is to make them
accessible to high school students. Interesting. Oh my goodness, there's something.
So who are you interested in,Christopher? Who do you like has been
a leading light in your life?Besides my wife? I don't know.
(45:54):
I fella PELI. It was aninfluence when I was younger, But I
don't know. That's a good question. I can't think of any one particular
author. I mean Saint Thomas.Of course. I've been reading for many
years. I studied in college,studying, graduate school. I've been That's
(46:16):
been a big influence. Writings ofthe Eastern Fathers. We were my family
never visit team. We used toattend a visit team monastery in California for
a long time. When it comeslike spiritual writers, I always find it
very difficult to find any I reallylike. I have a hard time getting
into the pure spiritual works. C. S. Lewis once said that he
(46:38):
didn't like spiritual works. His hisspiritual reading was theology, and that tends
to do it for me too.Uh uh huh uh huh. Yeah,
So Saint Thomas Thomas, what doyou think Thomas was like as a person?
(47:00):
Well, good question. There alsosay he never missed a meal.
The old story about having to cutout the portion of the table combadats it's
girt. Well. According to onebiography I read, though he wasn't really
obese. He was just very justa big man that he actually fasted an
(47:22):
awful lot. But I think sometimesI noticed with religious who are the monstrous
that fast? That the Byzantines,Because he eat a lot of carbohydrates,
they tend to gain weight during pastperiods, actually the Byzantines because they have
to give up meat and eggs,things like that. So you need to
beating a lot of carbohydrates with lotsof peanut butter. I'm sitting down and
(47:45):
writing a lot right, Yeah,that's a lot less active. But he
was actually, rather by all accounts, a very vigorous man. He didn't
lack physical vigor whatsoever, so thatwhen he actually fell sick towards the end
of the life, it was sortof a surprise. He wasn't a sickly
man. Yeah he was. Imean, I mean he was a man
(48:07):
I understand as the one who waseager always to teach. He was eager
to teach truth about God, truthis about nature. And he would here.
See that's why he wrote so much. He wanted to common write commentaries
in Aristotle because he wanted to makesure a property there would be a proper
understanding in an Aristotle in a linewith the Catholic faith. And I mean
(48:30):
when you look at what his prodigiousoutput, and it's his astounding what he
did in forty five, forty sixyears. Yeah, yeah, it's the
rest us to shame. You know, that was before they had pens,
no pens, no paper. Let'ssay your Valerie uh as a distinctive ministry.
(48:54):
Actually she has many of them,but one of them is there's this
party called the It's not as inParty Hardy, but it's the American Solidarity
Party. It was a trickle inthe past. It's moved up to the
status of a rivulet and Christopher andValerie and I see it as the wave
(49:20):
of the future. But at anyrate, within the party, sometimes tongues
get sharp and even within the partysometimes people think that it's their way or
the highway and Vale Valerie is apeacemaker and she's about two of the whole
thing is making me emotional. Thewhole thing. We're about to have the
(49:45):
national convention, and that's the worsttime of the year for the party,
is the national convention, because thereare many schemes for salvation not only of
the Party, not only of thenation, but of Western civilization. And
Valerie has to somehow get the discourseon track, keep it civil, isn't
(50:10):
that right? I do my best, and I don't know those are breath
What advice do you have for somebodywho's a peacemaker, a party peacemaker.
Well, I'm sure she says herprayers, and any any mom with six
(50:30):
kids must be a peacemaker by avocation. Do you have a difficult time
keeping peace in your own family?Valerie? Oh, no, not at
all. No, I am not. I would say I am not.
(50:54):
I am not the most serene mother. I don't maintain the most serene environment.
My whole family is a little adhd. It's lively around here, but
and not always peaceful. But Itell you, whenever it it erupts whenever
there's tension, like God is thereinviting us and showing us things about our
(51:16):
hearts. Right, And so thetensions and the the tensions and the division,
they are used by God very well, you know, to bring our
attention to again those places in ourhearts that need need to invite the Holy
Spirit. And I was thinking asyou all were talking about Raisa, there
(51:37):
was a phrase of hers that Iare some sentences that I came across hers
once early in my life. That'swhat I put in my journal and sort
of haunted me through the years andbeckoned me and haunted me. And it
was she's she wrote in her Idon't know if it's her journal, I
think, and I found out hereonline it says, I have the feeling
(51:58):
that what is asked of us isto live in the whirlwind without keeping back
any of our substance, without keepingback anything for ourselves, neither rest nor
friendships, nor health, nor leisure, to pray incessantly, and that even
without leisure, in fact, tolet ourselves pitch and toss in the waves
(52:21):
of the divine will till the daywhen it will say it easy enough,
Oh yeah, to memory, Ididn't. I found it. I googled
it just now as Jim was talkingabout Raisa and her works, and it
just struck me how that was alwayssomething. So I found it on Google.
And but I thought it was abit of a segue, you know,
(52:44):
because she's talking about pitching and tossingin the waves of the divine will.
And you know, on the onehand, you have this sort of
Benedictine We started the hour talking aboutthe Benedictine charism where order has a place,
serenity space, and true leisure doeshave a space and in the Christian
life, but also there is thisinevitable, particularly in the world for those
(53:07):
of us in the world the laity, there's this inevitable pitching and tossing.
And and when I found that quoteof hers, there's there's a couple you
know, there's a lot more toit in the context that's really beautiful.
So if somebody were to google that, but you know, essentially talking about
how life is, so there's somany tensions and so many currents, and
(53:29):
and and I think I guess Iwould ask you maybe to close us out
by talking about because you you saidhow important the Holy Spirit was in your
own ministry as a spiritual director andin the lives of really all Christians.
So maybe you could just speak alittle bit too to that, to the
to to how how we stay receptiveto the Holy Spirit and how we may
(53:52):
know if we're if if we're gettinggood fruits, either from spiritual direction or
from just whatever, whether it's withour husband or anyone. How do we
be attentive to the spirit and andknow if we're moving in the spirit.
Well, that's a good that's agood good question. I think that peace
is a good marker uh, interiorpeace. Uh. You know, in
(54:16):
the midst of the world, whenyou have to step back a bit and
wonder why you're there? Ah,I think it helps. I don't know
if this summer convention of the Partymight be an opportunity to step back a
bit and ponder why, uh whyyou're there together? What was the thing
(54:43):
that brought you together? What?What's the big picture? H And I
think it's important to in life tostep back and and and ponder what's what's
the purpose of it all? Youknow, when I was a little boy
preparing for my first Holy Communion,we studied our faith from the Baltimore Catechism
(55:07):
and question number six was why didGod make you? And the answer the
Catechism gave was God made me toknow him, to love him, and
to serve him in this life,so that one day I could be happy
with Him forever in the next.You know, I think a lot of
(55:30):
people who are caught up in thetensions of everyday life don't take the opportunities
that God avails them to step backand take a big, deep breath and
try to take in the big picture. I mean, the really big picture.
(55:51):
Nothing happens by accident. We're notin the midst of the whirlwind by
accident. So God called us intothe world with but a'm that he speaks,
and I think the word that hespeaks is a word at peace and
joy ultimately joy. So if youcan't find peace and joy, something's amiss,
(56:16):
m and maybe you need some spiritualdirection. Does that kind of round
it out? I'm amazed that it'sYou know, I've bored you for a
whole hour on it. No,no, no, no, bard them
at all. I just want toget back to your comment about summer oh,
(56:43):
which means baseball, of course.Oh. My Detroit Tigers actually won
their game yesterday. That's amazing.And of course there's controversy. There's this
whole business that's been going on nowfor a decade about the designated hitters.
Now that takes me back to Valerieand her methodology in homeschooling. She has
(57:06):
what's called designated corners, not designatedhitters. If there's no hitting going on,
there's a designated corner for that particularindividual. But we have come to
the end of the hour, andas always, we close with the gospel
(57:30):
for the day. And this isa short passage from Matthew. Jesus said
to his disciples, beware of falseprophets who come to you in sheep's clothing,
but underneath their ravenous wolves, bytheir fruits, you will know them.
(57:50):
Do people pick grapes from thorn bushesor figs from thistles, Just so
every good tree bears good fruit,and a rotten tree bears bad fruit.
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good
fruit. Every tree that does notbear good fruit will be cut down and
(58:15):
thrown into the fire. So bytheir fruits you will know them. Come
Lord Jesus, Come Amen, Amen, Thank you so much, Mon.
(58:35):
It is great to see you,and it's great to meet Valerie and Christopher
and all the best to each oneof you. Got speed and now thank
you. We always have a popquiz, and usually the pop quiz is
in the program, but this willbe a post program pop quiz. What
(58:57):
sporting event? Uh, women's sportingevent? What women's sporting event at the
most attendees at the biggest crowd inthe history of the world. Oh,
(59:20):
history of the world. Oh,I know you're just accepting answers. Yes,
accepting answers. And I've picked onValerie quite a bit this hour.
It's something that happened in not Ohio. It happened in Nebraska two summers ago,
(59:43):
one summer ago. Was it onlyonly last year? Yeah? Women's
volleyball match ninety three thousand people,ninety three thousand people, two Nebraska teams.
(01:00:07):
Wow, I don't know where Iwas. I did volleyball in high
school. I should have known aboutthat. Whatever it was. Learned something
new from you every day, Jim. I still need to look up the
word perplectic. What what's the wordyou use for Sebastian, Oh, peripatetic,
(01:00:28):
paripthetic. I gotta look that up, always learn from, always learn
senor knows about fairy pathetic in awalk about kind of way, ah as
opposed to in Ohio. It's away about that I don't know. I
don't want them to even start atLos Angeles. Everything you read about us
(01:00:50):
is underplayed. It's actually much muchworse. All right, Thank you gentlemen.
Okay, call who is see all? I bless you, Oh,
bless you too. Goa bye,thank you, bye, Hello, God's
(01:01:13):
beloved. I'm Annabel Moseley, author, professor of theology and host of then
Sings My Soul and Destination Sainthood onWCAT Radio. I invite you to listen
in and find inspiration along this sacredjourney. We're traveling together to make our
lives a masterpiece and with God's grace, become saints. Join me Annabel Moseley
(01:01:37):
for then Sings My Soul and DestinationSainthood on WCAT Radio. God bless you.
Remember you're never alone. God isalways with you. Thank you for
listening to a production of WCAT Radio. Please join us. It's an obmission
(01:02:00):
of evangelization, and don't forget.Love lifts up where knowledge takes flight.
You're listening to WCAT radio your homefor authentic Catholic programming. Please join us
at the Open Door. We discusssolidarity, subsidiarity, economic democracy, in
non violence in light of Catholic socialteaching. We explore how to move from
discussion to political change. Culture andpolitics, to be sure, are interwoven.
(00:24):
So we care deeply about education andthe arts. Our questions often lead
us to report on the projects andpromise of the American Solidarity Party. Welcome
to the Open Door. Jimpanic herewith fellow panelists Valerie Niemeyer and Christopher Zender.
(00:44):
Today we'll be talking about the roleof spiritual direction. Just what is
it? What is the ministry ofthe spiritual director? Our special and welcome
guest as Monsignor Patrick Gallis. Heis a priest of the Diocese of Tulsa
(01:07):
and Eastern Oklahoma. Monsignor Gallis retiredfrom parish work, well sort of retired
in twenty twenty two at the tenderage of seventy five, but retirement has
led to redirection. He served nowas spiritual director at Conception Seminary College in
(01:30):
Missouri for the past two years.Full disclosure, Monsignor has known me from
the time all back of the daywhen we were fellow College seminary as an
Assumption seminary in San Antonio, Texas. Monsignor Gallis spent his final four years
(01:57):
in the seminary at the American Collegeat the University of Louvain and Belgium.
There he earned a bachelor's degree inSacred theology and a master's degree in Moral
and Religious sciences. As always,let's begin in fair come, Holy Spirit,
(02:20):
fill the hearts of your faithful,and kindle in them the fire of
your love. Send forth your spirit, and they shall be created, and
you shall renew the face of theearth. God, who have taught the
hearts of the faithful by the lightof the Holy Spirit, grant that in
the same spirit we may be trulywise and never rejoice in His consolation through
(02:47):
Christ, our Lord Aimen. Letsignor you move from parish work to a
Benedictine abbey. Is there a distinctiveBenedictine spirituality? Well, yes, Jim,
(03:08):
there certainly is. It's very regulated, and the whole day is divided,
as you know, and probably mostof the audience knows that the day
is divided into periods of prayer insilence. They've given themselves over to the
praise of God and that's their wholeambition. And it shows now there's no
(03:34):
quod action, is there really?Maybe with the Benedictine option, that's just
the benedict option, though. Well, they're about forty five strong in that
community, and they seem to begrowing, and they're certainly engaged with the
world. But yeah, I thinkthat addict option certainly involves prayer, and
(04:02):
they're into that with their whole heart. So it's a pleasure to be with
them. And I tell everybody thatbeing there at Conception for me is like
being on a perpetual retreat. It'svery quiet, very prayerful, very structured.
Now one last item on this Benedictinetheme. You moved to a community
(04:30):
that's vowed to stability. Benedictines takea vow of stability, don't they They
do, Yeah, yeah, butthey make exceptions and you know, as
the Lord leads them. They've giventwo of their abbots to the job of
(04:51):
being abbit Primate of the Benedictine world. Presently, Primate Abbott greg Ray is
concluding his tenure is the primate andhe'll be returning to Conception Abbey soon,
so they're never far from home.In a way, it's of note that
(05:17):
the Benedictine Abbey here in Los Angeles, Saint Andrews is here because the Benedictines
got kicked out of China. Whoa, so they came all the way here.
They couldn't practice stability in China.They wouldn't be allowed, wanted to
(05:38):
be Yes, that's true, well, Valerie, yes, mon signior.
So spiritual direction appairs an interested personwith a spiritual director who can direct them.
For the average Catholic, though,if there is such a creature,
(05:58):
how would they know if they are, if they should seek a spiritual direction,
or if that would be for them? Well, Valerie, you know,
I was a pastor for a lotof years, and toward the the
end of my priestly perish career,a number of people would come and they
just want to talk about their spirituallife. They felt a tug, you
(06:24):
know, maybe there's something more Icould be doing. Maybe something was mentioned
in a homily or in a talk, and they thought, well, yeah,
maybe I could do with conversation withwith that priest. So I was
doing some spiritual direction even as apastor and and rather enjoyed it. And
(06:47):
I hope, I hope the folksthat came to me got some benefit from
it. We'll see, God knows, Yeah, and I would I would
hope that that's a reality for youknow, you'd like to see more of
that, right for pastors and thereand their flock, that there would be
that sort of informal if you will, or just kind of impromptu, Hey,
(07:10):
I'd like to talk to you.And now, is at what point
does it become spiritual direction maybe ona higher level where you you know,
is there a difference between spiritual directdirection in quotes and what you were doing
as a pastor there for example?And when does somebody want to see that?
Yeah, well, you know,it would begin with just to desire
(07:32):
to have some conversation with the priest, and then it might develop from there.
It might be a one off.They might want to come back in
a week or a month or occasionally, and so we just see what the
Lord was leading them to do.I wouldn't push them into spiritual direction,
(07:56):
but yeah, I think there areways in which a person's spiritual life can
be helped strengthened. Maybe they don'tknow of all the things that you know,
I've had a chance to become acquaintedwith as a priest, some great
books, some wonderful saints with aflair for helping people grow to love God
(08:22):
better and more completely. So Iwould typically I introduce them to the saints,
the people that nourished my spiritual lifefor so many years, you know,
Valerie, For a long time,I did not have a spiritual director
myself. I did in a seminary, but then as a priest, I
(08:48):
didn't. I belonged to a priestprayer group, and I guess you could
say that we helped each other along way, but it wasn't formal spiritual
direction, and I found I founda great nourishment for my spiritual life and
(09:09):
reading books by saints like Saint Francis, to Salts Saint Ignatius of Loyola,
and a wonderful Jesuit priest named JeanPierre de Cussa of a book called Abandonment
the Divine Providence, which I foundtransformative in my own life and the lives
(09:33):
of others, typically women. HWell, that's helpful. I think for
people to know that there's kind ofa spectrum. It doesn't have to be
some formalized regular thing in it,and it doesn't even necessarily have to be
with a priest. So thank youfor clarifying. Yeah, you're welcome.
Yeah, there are many spiritual directorswho aren't priests. Some dioceses had programs
(09:54):
to train lay people to be spiritualdirectors, have a flair for it.
You know, maybe women would ratherspeak to a woman and uh, men
to a man. You never know, mm hmm, God Leeds, do
you have a spiritual director? Ihave had at times in the past.
(10:16):
I've never you know, I'm amom of six kids, six eighteen and
time I've done more more reading alongthe lines of what you mentioned, just
the Saints and a lot of goodspiritual books, but finding the time to
have a regular appointment, and it'sbeen challenging, I can imagine. So
(10:37):
what books found helpful? I tooenjoyed Sat Francis to sales. You know,
he has a lot of good devotion. What's that true? What's the
book the famous book by him inproduction Introduction to Introductions about Life, correct
introduction. That was very helpful tome, And yeah, I believe in
(11:01):
Love. It was a huge onefor me. Yeah, but a lot
through through the through the years.Thanks be to God, a reliable source
has told me that he gives hisu blessing to Chess in that book.
I don't know that uh sech Atwo Timothy to move from Saint Francis to
(11:24):
Sales to Scripture itself says take alittle wine, and not just for your
health. Yes, sometimes my directionon that particular citation, there are times
when a glass of wine helps mykids have a better evening too, if
I have one, take a littleof the edge off. Christopher, you're
(11:48):
you're looking? Will you put yourpipe down? Why did you put your
pipe down? More sage with thatpipe in hand? If I'm a stage
of the pipe and hand and stayedwithout a pipehand? What what is your
question for bond Savior? But I'dlike to get a better sense of what
(12:09):
you mean by a spiritual director,because when I first became a Catholic,
way back in nineteen eighty three,I was in college and I had what
I probably pretentiously called a confessor,and I would go go to confession to
him and then we talk about things. But if layman could be spiritual directors,
obviously can't go to confession to them. So that's one side. Is
(12:31):
there a difference beween a confessor andspiritual director? Second, maybe the other
end of things. Is there adifference between a confessor and some in a
psychology, psychology, a psychological counselor. Yeah, no, yes, I
think there's a difference between the three. Your purpose as a confessor is to
(12:58):
absolve a person since and I've alwaysfound in my experience as a priest that
to be one of the most consolingthings I do. It's not only helpful,
of course, for the penitent,but it's also extremely helpful for the
confessor. I think some of thesame skills that listening are important for a
(13:28):
confessors or a spiritual director as forpsychological counselor. I look at what I
do as a spiritual director as somethingthat kin to being a spiritual coach.
The coach is someone who knows thegame, who's been at it for a
(13:50):
while, and it understands where aperson is at and what that person might
be capable of. I do tryto listen not only to the direct tee,
(14:11):
as you might say, but alsoto the promptings of the Holy Spirit.
I think that's terribly important. Whateverthe Holy Spirit might lead me to
inquire about or speak of would wouldbe totally, absolutely important, not only
(14:33):
in spiritual direction, but also asa confessor. So there are some similarities,
but a psychologist deals pretty much simplywith the psyche and not with the
soul. As such, the totalperson and the confessor is primarily there to
(14:56):
hear the confession of sins and tohave all by the grace and power con
as you I'm sure experienced, right. You know, it was very helpful
for me when I was I wasa new content from Lutheranism. When you
grew up in a church to teachhis total depravity, and then you enter
(15:16):
the Catholic Church and you have amuch stricter morality, it kind of it's
hard to it's hard to adjudicate thatsituation. Is I had a very good
confessor who knew just what what's howto how to approach it. Curiously,
we talked about lay of people beingconfessors. Now I imagine the Saint Benedict
(15:37):
was layman. Practice that might correctabout that. Yeah, I mean tech
he wasn't. He wasn't a cleric. Saint Francis wasn't a cleric, but
I'm sure they both did what wecall spiritual direction, but having like a
regularized kind of program for spiritual directionby diocese. For Layman is that that
seems like it's strictually something rather new. It is. Yeah, I'd say
(16:00):
in the last twenty years or so, it seems to be maybe not as
much now as there was a fewyears ago an interest in becoming involved in
spiritual direction. Just a slight correction. Chris, Saint Francis of ass was
(16:23):
a deacon. Eventually Sat Francis theSales was a bishop, and when I
became introduced to him, I struckgold and just a marvelous person. I
hope to meet him one day andhappened. If I'm good enough. Ye.
(16:51):
Saint Francis said something about spiritual directorsthat I think it's important to to
understand, and Saint Theresa of Avilaalso, Saint Theresa of Avila said that
a good spiritual director is one ina thousand, one in a thousand,
(17:15):
and Saint Francis the Sale said,ah, good spiritual director is one in
ten thousand. So not everybody whopulls themselves out to be a spiritual director
is really good at it or hM. And so yeah, you'd best
(17:38):
be cautious and prayerful about discerning whowill be given some say in your spiritual
life. I think a good dealof prayers should go into it and discernment.
Thank you to me that there probablyare not almost certainly not ten thousand
(18:06):
spiritual directors in Los Angeles, whichmeans that there's not one of them.
That's good unless my statistics have beenskewed or other. But maybe they're better
Angelens. You know a lot ofpeople nowadays google for what they're trying to
(18:33):
secure to find what do you supposewhat happen if I googled spiritual direction near
me? My goodness, I don'tknow that would be interesting. Well,
this is Los Angeles, so allbets are often very few should be made
(18:59):
in the first place. However,maybe I ought to include the word Christian
in there. I don't know.Well, when I Google a spiritual director
near me, I mostly got spiritualistsand various types of New age people.
(19:25):
And now that I'm i myself inthe very cusp of middle age, I
didn't know that I wanted to dealwith anybody that was new age. But
also I for oh maybe twenty fiveyears, my wife and I have been
lay missionaries of charity, and wemeet at the missionary of charity houses brothers
(19:52):
sometimes sisters for the most part.And our group asked the I heard,
is time finding a spiritual director.We've had a few, and they've always
been hard to find, and theypretty much haven't stayed, or when they
(20:15):
have stayed, then within a fewyears they get transferred and it's just too
far. So I think that alot of people wonder about could I really
get a spiritual director? And veryoftentimes people in parishes again here in Los
(20:38):
Angeles have the experience of pastors,associate pastors who have more work to do
than they could possibly manage already,and so they're hesitant to ask them to
be spiritual directors. So, havingdug this hole, oh would you help
(21:02):
somebody let me get out of it? I don't want you. And I
think probably just you know, prayfor a good one, and God sent
you a good, a good,solid spiritual director for your group. I
would suppose that you might know,or some of your little circle would know,
(21:26):
some priests they've been struck by,and I may have said something in
a homily that led them to thinkthat this priest might have a spiritual life
of his own and invite him toconsider coming to one of your meetings.
(21:49):
I'm not sure that those who proposedthemselves to be spiritual directors are the best
ones to choose from. It mightbe the more reluctant and quiet types that
I want to think about. Theremight be reserves of spiritual riches there that
(22:11):
just are are hidden because of thatpriest's I don't know, humility. I
think that would be an important qualityin the spiritual director. So yeah,
just you know, tell you agood one. Maybe we could fly someone
(22:33):
in from Missouri or well, Iknow, I know a monk who's my
spiritual director now at Conception. Isa wonderful fellow. Your father's saved,
you're nacky, mm hmm, wonderfulfellow. He's in his eighties. A
little wisdom there. It might begood to choose someone of your own vintage
(22:59):
Jim. I mean that takes usback to Timothy. Yeah, well Vnor
Yeah, I think maybe an olderpriest would be, uh, someone you
might think of selecting, maybe witha little pastoral experience under his belt,
(23:25):
a prayerful person. But you know, Saint Teresa Bavola said she prefer a
spiritual character who knew something as opposedto a priest who was noted for his
piety. So I guess you haveto be somewhat discerning. M hmm.
(23:45):
Well, I think it's interesting whatyou said about Saint Francis and Saint Teresa,
saying how rare a good spiritual directoris. And presumably you know,
in their day, as we said, this is a new trained being trained
in spiritual direction, right, Icould say it's an art of sorts,
right, that's pretty new in asense. I mean, so in their
(24:08):
the choices that they had were allwere probably religious or priests, right for
spiritual direction. So and maybe thatproblem of g we have a lot of
religious We have a lot of priestsout there, but it turns out that
not maybe you know, quite afew of them aren't actually adept or in
tune with the spirit enough to begood spiritual directors. And so maybe you
(24:33):
know, and what you were sayingJim about you know, increasingly priests and
religious are just so busy that fora lay person to have time with them
is kind of a something they can'tnecessarily expect. So this this kind of
development of lay spiritual direction and maybekind of creating a process criteria, something
(24:57):
that might produce consistently better spiritual directorsthat are more available for laity in the
world. It seems like that thatwas an important move of the Holy Spirit
and the Church. And so Iam curious, you know, as far
as prerequisites to somebody, is therea sense that somebody really needs to have
(25:18):
a sense of personal calling from Godto pursue becoming a spiritual director and and
what else would be required maybe forthem to to take that path, what's
involved with that kind of getting upand running with that training. Well,
in my limited experience, Valery,I would say that a good spiritual director
(25:52):
is necessarily someone who hangs out ashingle, say, spiritual direction, but
it's a person that others might seekout for occasional advice and then maybe long
term and continuing council with I didnot seek to be a spiritual director as
(26:19):
pastor when people came to me,and I didn't seek to be a spiritual
director at the seminary. I thoughtmy life would be lived here in Tulson,
filling in for other priests when theywere sick or on vacation. I
got a letter from the director ofSpiritual Formation at Conception Seminary who'd seen an
(26:44):
article about my upcoming retirement in ourDioceisan magazine and he invited me to think
about coming up to Conception to bea spiritual director. At first I thought,
oh no, I wouldn't know whatto do. But the more I
(27:08):
thought about it, the more attractiveit seemed. It would be a kind
of rounding out my clerical career prettymuch as it started in a seminary,
and I'd only be there for twoto three years and you know, wasn't
(27:29):
working out well. There was youknow, no long term contract. In
fact, there's no contract at all. It's just kind of a handshake.
My intent was to take a goodlong course with the IPF Institute for Priestly
(27:51):
Formation at Creating University as to howa person should be a proper spiritual director
for seminarians. But as it turnedout, my social pastor and to return
to the Philippines for exactly the periodof time I was supposed to be away,
so I never did get to takethat course. So I went into
(28:12):
it kind of blindly, and mymotto was simply do no harm. I
didn't want to damage the vocations ofthese young men, and you know,
as it happens, I've had afew things to share with them about their
(28:36):
spiritual lives, and they stayed certainlyenriched minds. So we're all the work
in progress, even spiritual directors.I mean they're not. I need a
spiritual director, you know. Ineed to go back to those saints and
their wonderful books and reread them.And I need, you know, all
(29:00):
the experienced spiritual director of flesh andblood at the place where I'm assigned to
be a spiritual director. So we'reall helping each other along the way.
Very good things I am. I'min Omaha, and so the Institute for
Priestly and I know has been hasbeen a very fruitful ministry for priests.
(29:27):
I've heard a lot of good testimonialsfrom priests who really were helped in their
own cultivation of their spiritual life andrelationship with God and and and their ability
to and their ability to accompany othersin that. So have you met Father
Timothy Gallagher. I haven't met himpersonally, no, but I have listened
(29:49):
to a lot of his a lotof his things, and read a lot
of his books on the on theexercises and kind of living those in daily
life. I have to revisit thoseoff and I've listened. I've listened to
some audio tapes of his fund extremelygood. Yes, But I think I
(30:10):
like the way you illustrate that forpeople, you know, where there's where
there's God's will, there's a waythat God provides for people. They're invited
often and just God makes a wayfor them to become people who direct others
through the fruits of their own ministriesand their relationships. And that's right,
(30:33):
that's right, And I would Iwould say that one one unnecessary quality in
any person you might select as aspiritual director is that that person, I
think, with the church, withthe deep traditions of the Church, and
not be a freethinker or extremely liberalin his or her theological opinions. Terribly
(31:00):
important to be grounded in the tradition, which is a spirit said, sounds
like a good prerequisite. Yeah,Now, Valerie, Nebraska, Christopher Sender
and it's his own fault, it'san Ohio. But even in Ohio there
(31:30):
there are deep thinkers, serious questioners. And so Christopher, you're next,
what's your your next thought for usto consider and for my senior to respond
to mhmm, Well, I'll haveto defend Ohio first. There are there,
There are a few deep thinkers here. There are really are, and
(31:53):
actually a lot of good clergy here. So if I wanted wanted to find
a good spiritual director, that's aclergy, very good, good crop of
especially young men coming out. ButI was thinking, you know, mis
reflecting on my own life as afather, I've actually had to do spiritual
direction myself with my own children.I've done spiritual direction with my wife,
(32:14):
and I guess she's done spiritual directionwith me. Perhaps we actually do have
the grace of vocation dows us withif we're if we're being serious about it,
with living seriously in our Catholic faith. But the grace vocation could actually
the Holy Spirit works to that andactually make some one's spouse or one's father
(32:36):
or mother spiritual director. Well,I think I think iron sharpens iron,
And yeah, you're soulmate of awife is truly the one who is given
to you by God to help youon your road to heaven, and your
(32:59):
God have been made to help heron that same road and together your children.
Absolutely, I think the wisdom thatGod gives to parents and spouses for
one another is inestimable. Thank youearly onto something. The priest did once
(33:22):
tell me that, yeah, becausehe would be overwhelmed with press the spiritual
direction. He said he didn't havethe time for any more directees. But
he actually suggests to a woman hesaid once that she should talk to her
husband. She looked at him likehe was mad. I probably think I
(33:44):
want to talk about my husband.Yeah, probably, so it wasn't your
wife when. I don't know ifshe might have said that at some point.
But where in Ohio? Are youCentral Ohio? Near Columbus. Yeah,
(34:06):
I have a friend in Stupenville orthe Stupenville Diocese. He's a little
town called Woodsfield, Father Timothy Davison. Give him a little shout out.
He has about two and a halfhours from us. So it sounds like
stupid will actually become part of theColumbus diocese. They're talking about a merger.
I know he might might end upthis way too. We have the
(34:30):
Joseph Pontefical College Josephine, and ourbishop is we have a very good bishop
right now. That's Bishop Earl Fernandeztop right. Bishop. So that's wonderful.
Things are looking good in Columbus rightnow. That's great. Glad to
hear it, Glad to hear it. Yeah, my friend Timothy, he
(34:52):
he was from Ohio, from theStupenville area and Donald Police that's where he's
from. And he became a priestin the Diocese of Tulsa, and then
when his parents were aging and inneed of some support, he got permission
from the bishop to move back toOhio, cared for them, and then
(35:15):
when they passed away, he decidedthat maybe he should stick around and be
a priest in a diocese that reallyneeded some help. They didn't have too
many vocations, and so he remainedin snow incardinated in the Stupidville diocese.
Wonderful guy. You know, priestsmeet brother priests to help them along the
(35:40):
way, and tim has been ahelp to me and maybe I've been to
him. So Yeah, one thingI think I've thought that one of the
problems you've had with crises in thepriesthood is that there's isolation of priests from
each other. Yeah, you havethe community of the right well back in
(36:01):
like the Benedictans are the Dominicans.We have in our diases. Here they
have this community they can fall backon. But you don't have that community.
You're just isolated. That could bemake priesthood very very difficult. Well,
there are attempts to overcome that isolation. For the last forty years or
(36:25):
more, perhaps there have been priestgroups that, in one form or another
and help each other find that fraternitythat, by our vocational choice is and
always present. So things like theImaeis groups or Jesus Caritas, which I
(36:49):
was a member of for many,many years, are ways of compensating for
that potential loneliness and isolation that canin flicked the priest. Christopher match the
Dominicans. He's a lay Dominican.Oh I could tell, Yeah, he's
(37:10):
He's step he escaped intomism. Ohyou like Thomas, Oh I do.
Yeah. I'm now reading the uhCommentary on the Gospel of John very slowly.
I don't have a lot of time. But yeah. I was reading
a book It's about life to sayThomas, and the author said, if
(37:34):
you want to be a real youcan't be real Thomas unless you read the
Commentary on the Gospel of John's.I figure, well, I'd better complete
this process. Wow, you've inspiredme. Have you ever read a book
by G. K. Chesterton onSaint Thomas Aquinas, Yeah, I have,
Yeah, our late Dominican group readit. Read it last year.
(37:57):
I think it was Yeah. TiAngel Song, the noted Tomistic historian,
said he thought that was the bestbook ever written about Saint Thomas. Yeah.
He said Chesterton was an extremely hatethinker G K. Chesterd AND's kept
me sane for oh a good sixtyyears. I first encountered him in high
(38:25):
school and he's spent a lifelong superstarin my opinion. M I'm more of
a Bellock man myself. Oh yeah, I like Bellock too. I've got
a couple of books with his signature. And then yeah, I've got a
(38:47):
three page note in his handwriting,which I put out a lot of money
to purchase. And it's amazing howartifacts like that can help you feel close
to somebody you admire. HM.Of course, consider you've got to admit
(39:08):
that you, most of all,most of all are a disciple of Jaques
Maritan. I do my Jock Meretin. I got a kick. I got
on a kick reading his books justa couple of years ago, and extremely
(39:29):
wonderful fellow and well regarded even inthe secular community, helped draft the the
Human Rights Document from the United Nations. And yeah, and Race and his
wife, they were a great pair. When I was not yet at Assumption
(39:53):
Seminary, but more or less headedin that direction, I asked one of
my teachers, who went on tobecome Bishop Robert Rose of Grand Rapids,
Michigan, what might be a goodpreparation for studying philosophy, And lo and
(40:14):
behold, he said, take this, and it was Adventures and Grace and
we have Been Friends Together by RaisaMaretan. Yes, and one of the
things that I certainly remember from thosetwo books that were joined together was a
(40:36):
deep commitment to a christ Like life, And Adventures in Grace was a wonderful
title for one of the books.And We've Been Friends Together fit in perfectly
with Adventures and Grace, And thatwas really the foundation for Jacques's philosophical work.
(41:04):
And there's a union in his lifeof the active and contemplative that I
think is really extraordinary. And youcouldn't tell by looking at him, but
both Valerie and Christopher are activists ofthe first rank, yet they have a
(41:29):
contemplative dimension about them as well.I wonder if you have some thoughts this
could be spontaneous spiritual direction and youcould do some directing for us of how
to fuse the active and the contemplative. Well, well, I don't know
(41:57):
however, God might lead you,Jim. When when I met you,
you were on the activist side,and I remember that you were engaged with
Dorothy Day long before I became afan. And but there was all There
(42:17):
was also also a deep muh.Maybe you notice you said there were other
confused activists. No, it wasyou were. You were extremely thoughtful.
Uh. I admire that in you. I admired it then and you can
(42:43):
see it now. And your wholecareer, you know, has been a
bit on the contemplative side, hasn'tit been. You were a teacher of
philosophy for many years. And youknow when I've said on my retirement,
you might think of this apocryphal ornot. I looked out and I said,
(43:04):
these forty years, nah, artificialpearls before real swine. I said,
enough of that. There are otherpeople retiring, Thank goodness, that's
not just do ah. Yeah.Oh well, well, active and contemplative,
(43:28):
you guys have an important question,Wow, do you refuse the two?
And I guess you just consult withthe Good Lord and see what he
puts them right in front of you. Somebody said something once that struck me
as true at the time and trueever since. There are no such things
(43:50):
as accidental encounters. We don't meetpeople or are confronted with situations totally by
chance or by accident. It's allin God's providence. And I think we
know by an interior tug whether weshould be now more active or now more
(44:15):
contemplative. I don't know retirement ina way as teaching me to discern what
God wants me to do. Here. I am retired from parish work,
but also on vacation from spiritual directionwork at the seminary and summer vacation for
(44:37):
the students, and so it's summervacation for me. So what should I
be doing with these days and weeksand three months even of comparative idleness.
So I've been I've been reading,and in fact, the next book I
intended to read was Adventures in Greece. That's wonderful. That's wonderful. Yeah,
(45:07):
of course, even their controversy emergence, for example, Christopher Zender actually
prefers Charles Charles what's his name,Christopher d'aconic. Ah, Yes, he
prefers Charles d'aconic. Well, notthe writing style. Charles da conna was
(45:28):
a horrible writer. Christopher writes textbooksand his whole goal is to make them
accessible to high school students. Interesting. Oh my goodness, there's something.
So who are you interested in,Christopher? Who do you like has been
a leading light in your life?Besides my wife? I don't know.
(45:54):
I fella PELI. It was aninfluence when I was younger, But I
don't know. That's a good question. I can't think of any one particular
author. I mean Saint Thomas.Of course. I've been reading for many
years. I studied in college,studying, graduate school. I've been That's
(46:16):
been a big influence. Writings ofthe Eastern Fathers. We were my family
never visit team. We used toattend a visit team monastery in California for
a long time. When it comeslike spiritual writers, I always find it
very difficult to find any I reallylike. I have a hard time getting
into the pure spiritual works. C. S. Lewis once said that he
(46:38):
didn't like spiritual works. His hisspiritual reading was theology, and that tends
to do it for me too.Uh uh huh uh huh. Yeah,
So Saint Thomas Thomas, what doyou think Thomas was like as a person?
(47:00):
Well, good question. There alsosay he never missed a meal.
The old story about having to cutout the portion of the table combadats it's
girt. Well. According to onebiography I read, though he wasn't really
obese. He was just very justa big man that he actually fasted an
(47:22):
awful lot. But I think sometimesI noticed with religious who are the monstrous
that fast? That the Byzantines,Because he eat a lot of carbohydrates,
they tend to gain weight during pastperiods, actually the Byzantines because they have
to give up meat and eggs,things like that. So you need to
beating a lot of carbohydrates with lotsof peanut butter. I'm sitting down and
(47:45):
writing a lot right, Yeah,that's a lot less active. But he
was actually, rather by all accounts, a very vigorous man. He didn't
lack physical vigor whatsoever, so thatwhen he actually fell sick towards the end
of the life, it was sortof a surprise. He wasn't a sickly
man. Yeah he was. Imean, I mean he was a man
(48:07):
I understand as the one who waseager always to teach. He was eager
to teach truth about God, truthis about nature. And he would here.
See that's why he wrote so much. He wanted to common write commentaries
in Aristotle because he wanted to makesure a property there would be a proper
understanding in an Aristotle in a linewith the Catholic faith. And I mean
(48:30):
when you look at what his prodigiousoutput, and it's his astounding what he
did in forty five, forty sixyears. Yeah, yeah, it's the
rest us to shame. You know, that was before they had pens,
no pens, no paper. Let'ssay your Valerie uh as a distinctive ministry.
(48:54):
Actually she has many of them,but one of them is there's this
party called the It's not as inParty Hardy, but it's the American Solidarity
Party. It was a trickle inthe past. It's moved up to the
status of a rivulet and Christopher andValerie and I see it as the wave
(49:20):
of the future. But at anyrate, within the party, sometimes tongues
get sharp and even within the partysometimes people think that it's their way or
the highway and Vale Valerie is apeacemaker and she's about two of the whole
thing is making me emotional. Thewhole thing. We're about to have the
(49:45):
national convention, and that's the worsttime of the year for the party,
is the national convention, because thereare many schemes for salvation not only of
the Party, not only of thenation, but of Western civilization. And
Valerie has to somehow get the discourseon track, keep it civil, isn't
(50:10):
that right? I do my best, and I don't know those are breath
What advice do you have for somebodywho's a peacemaker, a party peacemaker.
Well, I'm sure she says herprayers, and any any mom with six
(50:30):
kids must be a peacemaker by avocation. Do you have a difficult time
keeping peace in your own family?Valerie? Oh, no, not at
all. No, I am not. I would say I am not.
(50:54):
I am not the most serene mother. I don't maintain the most serene environment.
My whole family is a little adhd. It's lively around here, but
and not always peaceful. But Itell you, whenever it it erupts whenever
there's tension, like God is thereinviting us and showing us things about our
(51:16):
hearts. Right, And so thetensions and the the tensions and the division,
they are used by God very well, you know, to bring our
attention to again those places in ourhearts that need need to invite the Holy
Spirit. And I was thinking asyou all were talking about Raisa, there
(51:37):
was a phrase of hers that Iare some sentences that I came across hers
once early in my life. That'swhat I put in my journal and sort
of haunted me through the years andbeckoned me and haunted me. And it
was she's she wrote in her Idon't know if it's her journal, I
think, and I found out hereonline it says, I have the feeling
(51:58):
that what is asked of us isto live in the whirlwind without keeping back
any of our substance, without keepingback anything for ourselves, neither rest nor
friendships, nor health, nor leisure, to pray incessantly, and that even
without leisure, in fact, tolet ourselves pitch and toss in the waves
(52:21):
of the divine will till the daywhen it will say it easy enough,
Oh yeah, to memory, Ididn't. I found it. I googled
it just now as Jim was talkingabout Raisa and her works, and it
just struck me how that was alwayssomething. So I found it on Google.
And but I thought it was abit of a segue, you know,
(52:44):
because she's talking about pitching and tossingin the waves of the divine will.
And you know, on the onehand, you have this sort of
Benedictine We started the hour talking aboutthe Benedictine charism where order has a place,
serenity space, and true leisure doeshave a space and in the Christian
life, but also there is thisinevitable, particularly in the world for those
(53:07):
of us in the world the laity, there's this inevitable pitching and tossing.
And and when I found that quoteof hers, there's there's a couple you
know, there's a lot more toit in the context that's really beautiful.
So if somebody were to google that, but you know, essentially talking about
how life is, so there's somany tensions and so many currents, and
(53:29):
and and I think I guess Iwould ask you maybe to close us out
by talking about because you you saidhow important the Holy Spirit was in your
own ministry as a spiritual director andin the lives of really all Christians.
So maybe you could just speak alittle bit too to that, to the
to to how how we stay receptiveto the Holy Spirit and how we may
(53:52):
know if we're if if we're gettinggood fruits, either from spiritual direction or
from just whatever, whether it's withour husband or anyone. How do we
be attentive to the spirit and andknow if we're moving in the spirit.
Well, that's a good that's agood good question. I think that peace
is a good marker uh, interiorpeace. Uh. You know, in
(54:16):
the midst of the world, whenyou have to step back a bit and
wonder why you're there? Ah,I think it helps. I don't know
if this summer convention of the Partymight be an opportunity to step back a
bit and ponder why, uh whyyou're there together? What was the thing
(54:43):
that brought you together? What?What's the big picture? H And I
think it's important to in life tostep back and and and ponder what's what's
the purpose of it all? Youknow, when I was a little boy
preparing for my first Holy Communion,we studied our faith from the Baltimore Catechism
(55:07):
and question number six was why didGod make you? And the answer the
Catechism gave was God made me toknow him, to love him, and
to serve him in this life,so that one day I could be happy
with Him forever in the next.You know, I think a lot of
(55:30):
people who are caught up in thetensions of everyday life don't take the opportunities
that God avails them to step backand take a big, deep breath and
try to take in the big picture. I mean, the really big picture.
(55:51):
Nothing happens by accident. We're notin the midst of the whirlwind by
accident. So God called us intothe world with but a'm that he speaks,
and I think the word that hespeaks is a word at peace and
joy ultimately joy. So if youcan't find peace and joy, something's amiss,
(56:16):
m and maybe you need some spiritualdirection. Does that kind of round
it out? I'm amazed that it'sYou know, I've bored you for a
whole hour on it. No,no, no, no, bard them
at all. I just want toget back to your comment about summer oh,
(56:43):
which means baseball, of course.Oh. My Detroit Tigers actually won
their game yesterday. That's amazing.And of course there's controversy. There's this
whole business that's been going on nowfor a decade about the designated hitters.
Now that takes me back to Valerieand her methodology in homeschooling. She has
(57:06):
what's called designated corners, not designatedhitters. If there's no hitting going on,
there's a designated corner for that particularindividual. But we have come to
the end of the hour, andas always, we close with the gospel
(57:30):
for the day. And this isa short passage from Matthew. Jesus said
to his disciples, beware of falseprophets who come to you in sheep's clothing,
but underneath their ravenous wolves, bytheir fruits, you will know them.
(57:50):
Do people pick grapes from thorn bushesor figs from thistles, Just so
every good tree bears good fruit,and a rotten tree bears bad fruit.
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good
fruit. Every tree that does notbear good fruit will be cut down and
(58:15):
thrown into the fire. So bytheir fruits you will know them. Come
Lord Jesus, Come Amen, Amen, Thank you so much, Mon.
(58:35):
It is great to see you,and it's great to meet Valerie and Christopher
and all the best to each oneof you. Got speed and now thank
you. We always have a popquiz, and usually the pop quiz is
in the program, but this willbe a post program pop quiz. What
(58:57):
sporting event? Uh, women's sportingevent? What women's sporting event at the
most attendees at the biggest crowd inthe history of the world. Oh,
(59:20):
history of the world. Oh,I know you're just accepting answers. Yes,
accepting answers. And I've picked onValerie quite a bit this hour.
It's something that happened in not Ohio. It happened in Nebraska two summers ago,
(59:43):
one summer ago. Was it onlyonly last year? Yeah? Women's
volleyball match ninety three thousand people,ninety three thousand people, two Nebraska teams.
(01:00:07):
Wow, I don't know where Iwas. I did volleyball in high
school. I should have known aboutthat. Whatever it was. Learned something
new from you every day, Jim. I still need to look up the
word perplectic. What what's the wordyou use for Sebastian, Oh, peripatetic,
(01:00:28):
paripthetic. I gotta look that up, always learn from, always learn
senor knows about fairy pathetic in awalk about kind of way, ah as
opposed to in Ohio. It's away about that I don't know. I
don't want them to even start atLos Angeles. Everything you read about us
(01:00:50):
is underplayed. It's actually much muchworse. All right, Thank you gentlemen.
Okay, call who is see all? I bless you, Oh,
bless you too. Goa bye,thank you, bye, Hello, God's
(01:01:13):
beloved. I'm Annabel Moseley, author, professor of theology and host of then
Sings My Soul and Destination Sainthood onWCAT Radio. I invite you to listen
in and find inspiration along this sacredjourney. We're traveling together to make our
lives a masterpiece and with God's grace, become saints. Join me Annabel Moseley
(01:01:37):
for then Sings My Soul and DestinationSainthood on WCAT Radio. God bless you.
Remember you're never alone. God isalways with you. Thank you for
listening to a production of WCAT Radio. Please join us. It's an obmission
(01:02:00):
of evangelization, and don't forget.Love lifts up where knowledge takes flight.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.