Episode 292: Matthew Tsakanikas on Christian Zionism and its Theological Distortions (October 30, 2024)

In this episode, the panelists of The Open Door talk with Matthew Tsakanikas on Christian Zionism and its Theological Distortions (October 30, 2024)

1. What is Zionism, and what specifically, is religious or Christian Zionism? 
2.  Why is it a theological error? How does it misread the Bible, particularly passages such as Romans 11:29?

3.  What are its origins?

4. Does it have much presence outside the U.S.? If not, why do you think so?5.  What effects has it had on American politics, especially American foreign policy?
 
6.  Can one make a sharp distinction between political and religious Zionism, at least with regard to their geographical claims? For example, with regard to an assertion of the right of Jews to move to Palestine and, at least to some extent, the displacement of the Arab inhabitants in the early part of the 20th century, did not the two forms of Zionism pretty much operate in the same way?
 7. What is the correct way for Catholics to think about the Church and the Jewish people and is there any role they may still play in salvation history?

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
You're listening to w c a T Radio, your home
for authentic Catholic programming.

Speaker 2 (00:06):
Welcome to the Open Door in our new team Thomas
Stewart and co hosts Christopher Zender and ANDREWS Zurakowski. Our
guest today is doctor Matthews and Ekos, Professor of Theology
at Christenham College. He received his bachelor's degree of the.

Speaker 3 (00:24):
Same college and his Lissentiate in theology from the Potifical
John Paul the Second Institute, and his Doctor in Theology
from the particular of Ladder And University. He's published in communio,
the well known Catholic Theology, Theology Journal Logos, the Journal
of Catholic Fought them Altic Compastor Review, Social Justice Review,

(00:47):
and Catholic World Report.

Speaker 4 (00:49):
He will speak.

Speaker 2 (00:49):
We will speaking with him tonight about the very timely
topic of Christian Zionism. Like as usual, became with a prayer.
Come home, feel the hearts of your faithful and candle
them fire of your love. Set forth your spirit and
they show be created, and you shall renew the face
of the earth. Let us spray, Oh Gods taught the

(01:13):
hearts of the faithful. But it might be the only
spirit we had that in the same spirit we may
be truly wise and ever rejoice in this constellation through Christ,
our Lord. Amen. Okay, so, I guess the first point
to ask you, Professor, is, since it might be unfamiliar

(01:35):
to many of our listeners, what is Zionism and what
is Christianism is particular?

Speaker 5 (01:42):
Okay, so, I want to talk about Zionism from the
perspective of the Jewish ethnicity. Zionism is that attempt to
create a homeland specifically for the Jewish people, especially based
on ethnicity, but particularly the choice being within the land

(02:06):
before there was the diaspora that occurred from what was
known as Palestine, what had once been known as Israel,
to go back to those ancient that ancient homeland that
had been occupied by the nation that we knew was Israel.
And so this was a movement in the late eighteen
hundreds into the into the present day, but particularly developing

(02:30):
all the more strongly at the beginning of the twentieth century.

Speaker 6 (02:34):
And so.

Speaker 5 (02:37):
From the Jewish perspective, it began as more for a
political state homeland. From the Christian Zionist perspective, it's supporting
Jewish people to return to the homeland because they see
it as some kind of fulfillment of prophecy when we
speak of Christian Zionism, and so it's not always necessarily

(02:59):
tied to some prophetic meaning when Jewish people speak about it.
So there's a little bit of differentiation that occurs of
what kind of Zionism we're talking about.

Speaker 2 (03:08):
Now, it's my understanding that many of the original Jewish
scientists were not religious at all.

Speaker 5 (03:14):
Yeah, well, this was kind of a you know, there's
always a mix. In other words, it was because of
a religious perspective that this had been an ancient homeland
that belonged to their people, and so they still felt
attracted to it. But as you're saying, it wasn't so
much based on that God therefore wills it and we're

(03:34):
fulfilling something prophetic, but rather we're already in a state
of some kind of agnosticism as it is, And our
motivations are first and foremost primarily for a homeland to
escape the pograms happening in Europe, the second rate citizen
kind of status that had affected the Jews for so long,

(03:55):
and so the motivation wasn't so much religious as it
was political, and to assure a safe place for Jewish ethnicity.

Speaker 2 (04:06):
Now theologically speaking as a Catholic, what is wrong with this,
with any kind of theological Zionist project.

Speaker 5 (04:16):
Right, So, and this is where it gets difficult to
talk about it. So certainly, if were to speak about
a religious Zionism, we're entering into a unique conversation. We're
no longer talking about specifically the Zionism that began in
Earnest under the British Empire at that time, so in
the early nineteen hundreds, beginning more in Earnest after World

(04:41):
War One. And so when we start speaking of religious scientism,
we're talking about or theological Zionism. We're talking about the
idea that God's providence and God's positive will is currently
in somehow demanding that people with a Jewish background and

(05:02):
Israelite heritage should return because God is doing something providentially.
And so if we start moving into that area, we
people supporting. So again we would say theolog if you
say a theological Zionism, easier for me to call it
first or religious Scianism and a Christian Zionism as opposed

(05:22):
to a political Zionism. And the problem with the theology
theological or what I would call religious Zionism would be
that somehow it's a it's a pretending from the Jewish perspective,
it's a rejection that Jesus is the Messiah. We're not
waiting on him, and in order for the real Messiah
to come, we have to take back the land that's

(05:44):
currently under Palestinian control. That would be religious Scionism. That's
to be separated from what happened under the British Mandate.
Under the British Mandate was was a colonialism of the
time in which since the British were in control and
they found a solution that they believed was helpful to
the British Empire, helpful to the Jewish people themselves, and

(06:08):
so they saw it more as a colonial movement that
was bringing democracy into the Middle East. And so that
was more a tool and a political tool when we
speak of Zionism, and it was based on a colonialism.
Religious Zionism is based on an aspect in which people
believe they have a god given right to take the
land from the current inhabitants. The Catholic Church cannot support

(06:29):
that because the law and the prophets are fulfilled that
Jesus Christ is actually the true land that God always
intended for us to inherit. And therefore, now that Jesus
Christ has come, the very purposes of the land and
the very purposes of the race, specifically of the tribe
of Judah within the Israelite race, because we have to

(06:52):
make a distinction. Too many times people use the word
Jew when they actually mean of Israelite inheritance, because not
every Israelite is a Jew. Jews specific to the tribe
of Judah, And so just make a little distinction that

(07:12):
people need to remember a little bit when we talk
about it. So we speak of the Jewish homeland in Israel,
but we also have to remember the jew is actually
just one tribe out of the twelve tribes. But that
word gets mixed interchangeably, and so it makes discussions difficult,
just as if we don't differentiate a kind of political
colonial Zionism from the religious Zionism that is really causing

(07:35):
great difficulties today in the current wars that are going
on in the Middle East.

Speaker 2 (07:42):
As the reason, I understand the distinction between the tribe
of Juda and the rest of the tribes, but are
you stratting that because of the fact that the Northern
Kingdom was destroyed and the population deported. All that was
left with the Jews with j. Rhether.

Speaker 5 (08:00):
Yeah, for the most part, that the one tribe that
really could keep its identity because it lasted at least
as a group within that land until seventy a d.
To the destruction of Rome, to after the bar Koachba rebellions,
when the Roman Empire really caused an even greater dispersion
removing them from Jerusalem. That really those who knew themselves

(08:22):
as belonging or as Israelite, were particularly those who belong
to the tribe of Judah, from which we get the
word Jew. But the reason I'm making the distinction is
because people so often equate Jew and Israel, which they
need to be careful of. They're also causing a misinterpretation
of Romans Chapter eleven that is leading to the false

(08:45):
forms of religious Zcianism that are being supported today because
they're misunderstanding what Saint Paul is talking about when he
speaks of all Israel being saved, and that's leading to
the false prophetic movement associated with Christian Zionism and the
religious Zionists themselves. But the religious Zionists who are Jews

(09:09):
aren't holding to a Zionism for the same reason the
Christian Zionists are holding to a Zionism.

Speaker 2 (09:16):
Could you go into that question about Romans chapter eleven
a little more in DTL.

Speaker 5 (09:23):
So in Romans chapter eleven, the basis for what would say,
in other words, why is it we have Christian Zionism?
And that would be we find movements that re arose,
particularly in the nineteenth century amongst Christians, particularly here in America,
and so amongst our Baptist communities, amongst are developing evangelical communities,

(09:49):
not mainline Christian communities, amongst the Protestants, such as your
Lutherans and your Methodists and your Presbyterians, but particularly amongst
your Baptists populations, and the Biblical reading, they held to
prophetic forms of reading in which they saw that Paul
was somehow prophesying. So they mix Romans chapter eleven with

(10:11):
the Book of the Apocalypse or the Book of Revelation.
They mix these two together in a way in which
they believe that there's going to be a thousand year
reign of Christ on Earth, and what precedes it is
a return of the Jews to their ancestral homeland. And

(10:31):
so when Saint Paul is speaking about how there's a
time period in chapter eleven of Romans in which the
Gentiles are being grafted into the promises of God due
to his ministry. Paul's ministry to the Gentiles because the

(10:51):
current day Jews of Saint Paul's time were rejecting his ministry,
and so Saint Paul is reminding them that it's a
great mercy of God that they're being grafted into the
promises of God that originally belonged to the Jews, but
now that those who accept Jesus Christ are being grafted
into those promises that were ultimately about being brought into

(11:13):
God's family. But then Saint Paul makes a remark towards
the end of Romans, especially beginning around Romans eleven twenty six,
and which he says, but eventually all Israel is going
to be saved, And so it sounds as though there's
a time period in which the Gentiles are brought in
and then somehow, and this is a misreading, that there's

(11:36):
going to be a closing of that time and then
God's going to convert all of the Jews around the
world who are still remaining are going to be grafted
back into the promises of God. And so due to
that misreading, they then look at the idea of a
thousand year reign of Christ in the Book of Revelation,
and so a lot of these Protestant groups were prophesying

(11:57):
that there's going to be a return of of Jews
to their ancestral homeland, which is the precursor to thousand
year reign of Christ. And so if we help them
all get there, Jesus is going to return and convert
them all, then there's going to be a thousand year
reign of Christ. And so this false understanding is known

(12:17):
as a pre millennial dispensationism, and what it's saying is
it believes ultimately these forms of false Christian millenarianism and
millenarism is an actual heresy that is condemned by the
Catholic Church. You can find its condemnations, particularly in paragraphs

(12:37):
six hundred and seventy six of the Catechism of the
Catholic Church. And so this fostering of this old heresy
that's come alive again is in a lot of the
biblical commentaries of these Protestant specifically Baptist Assembly of God
it's particularly heavy in the Schofield commentary of nineteen oh

(12:59):
nine that's coinciding with Theodore Hertzel's movement of Zionism about
that same timeframe, and so it's really trying to rather
Christians to support the Zionism of Hertzel, and you're going
to see the British Empire also embracing it all the
more of this idea of the Jews are called to
return to their homeland. And so I think that's just

(13:21):
a little bit of background perhaps of a conversation where
I'm going to let you lead the conversation to your
questions and things I'm saying to develop how this is
all coalescing during an age of British colonialism in the
early nineteen hundreds when the British had a mandate from
the League of Nations. So beginning around nineteen twenty, the
League of Nations after World War One, all of the colonialists,

(13:46):
so between the French, especially the French, and the English,
particularly in the Middle East and in Africa, the League
of Nations is saying, we're giving you control and administration
of these lands for the continuation of your politics and
economics in your empires. And so since the British saw

(14:08):
themselves in control, They saw themselves as having the right
to control the movement of populations, even if it meant
displacing current populations that were there in the colonial age.
That was not seen as an abuse of the rights
of the people living on those lands, and so Zionism
easily piggybacked right into British mandate of the Middle East,

(14:32):
particularly what was known as Palestine, and that came through
the League of Nations and lasted even until the establishment
in nineteen forty eight of Israel, under where we saw
the UN recognize through its political form as successor the
League of Nations, that the people in control of those

(14:53):
specific lands, as the British left, had the right to
the governance of the lands in which they had seized control,
which is the origin of today's current conflicts.

Speaker 6 (15:04):
Because of Andrew.

Speaker 2 (15:05):
Please weigh in here.

Speaker 6 (15:06):
Yeah, I question that cool question, All Israel shall be saved?
That Saint Paul says, right. I think one way I'm
interputing is all Israel means all Israel being those who
are in the Church. That now that the Gentiles are
incorporated the Church, they become Israel. So it's not necessarily

(15:27):
so much. I don't you think about this. It's not
so much that we're looking for a future time when
all Jews will be brought into the church and we're
looking into the fullness of the Church.

Speaker 5 (15:39):
It has to be interpreted, you're correct. It has to
be interpreted in the whole of Saint Paul's thought in Romans,
and not just in Romans, but obviously in Galatians, in
his whole understanding what God's plan is, how Christ is
the end or the tellous of the law, and so
and understanding what the law is in terms of the

(16:01):
law is Torah. But Torah also began as promises to Abraham.
Torah is not just the five books that were given
to Moses, or that of which Moses is we would say,
the substantial author. But Torah is actually the promises given
to Abraham by which God is going to bring his
wisdom back into the world through the idea of his

(16:23):
firstborn king priests, of which Abraham is the successor in
the post flood world, via the descendants of Noah, especially
shem who in a proper reading of the Old Testament,
when you look at the vast age of the patriarchs,
you can see that you're intentionally supposed to recognize since
Shem lives to the age of six hundred, so Shem

(16:46):
is living at least five hundred years after the flood.
When you follow the biblical numerology and the intentions of
well that numerology exists, it's to demonstrate that Shem would
still be alive to that numbering system. And therefore, when
we're meeting Malchisedek, Malkisedek is passing along the line of

(17:06):
the first born to Abraham, and malkisneck is Shem. Malkis
neck is simply a throne name of Shem, and so
we're seeing the transfer of the first born from all
the way from Adam through Noah, through Shem down to
the line through Abraham. That the name of God and
those who rightly worship God and call on Him by name,

(17:28):
which is the whole point of who are the people
of God? It is those who call upon God by
name and have maintained the development of God's covenants. Because
God didn't just make one covenant, He made multiple covenants
upon which the covenants continue to build on one another.
And what Saint Paul is ultimately arguing is Jesus is

(17:48):
the last and total fulfillment of all covenants. And therefore,
what you're arguing is what Saint Paul is trying to say,
and that is that the Church has become the continuation
of God's promises, which is God's people, the continuation of
God's Israel. And that is why in the Dogmatic Constitution

(18:12):
of the Church Lumingensium from Vatican two, the Dogmatic Constitution
of the Church, paragraph nine point three says the Catholic
Church quote is the new Israel. And so what Saint
Paul is talking about is all of those people being
grafted into the promises of God. That's all Israel, of

(18:36):
which the remnant. In other words, Saint Paul's lamenting, Look,
there's a remnant of people amongst God's people. He always
preserves a remnant. And so while it hurts me that
so many Jews of Saint Paul's time are working against
the Messiah that has been revealed Us Jesus, the Messiah

(18:58):
who has been revealed by his resurrection, all his miracles
before his death, his resurrection from the dead, the miracles,
his apostles are still continuing, Saint Paul's saying, it really
hurts me that so many Jews are rejecting this message.
But because they're rejecting it, you gentiles are able to
be grafted in. But thankfully, through my preaching and using

(19:22):
you gentiles, I'm at least making some Jews jealous, and
they're listening to my message, and they're still coming in.
And those Jews who are still coming in as the
reference to all Israel, it's not a reference to all
remaining Jews. And that's why we made a distinction at
the beginning of this conversation, and the station was jew
Is not Israel. Israel refers to all the tribes that

(19:45):
belonged to Jacob Israel. But he's also very clear in
the development of his argument not all, not all people
who are born of Jacob are the true Israel, and
there are many who are being grafted on who are
making up the full Israel. So when he says all
Israel is being saved, it is not of reference that
somehow all Jews are going to be regathered back into

(20:07):
a land and Jesus is going to return and convert
them on and then have a thousand year reign. That's
a horrific idea, because Jesus himself said, my kingdom is
not of this world. And when he tried making Jesus
kingdom inner worldly, you start following into a false politics,
and you start turning Jesus into your political ideology instead

(20:30):
of letting him remain being the transcendent God and Savior.
And so, in other words, you start subjecting Jesus to time,
to the temporal politics. And so that's not the mystery
of Jesus Christ. And the thousand year reign of Jesus
Christ was never supposed to be understood temporally. It was

(20:50):
always supposed to be understood by Jesus' words, my kingdom
or not of this world, that Jesus reigns by the
power of the Holy Spirit. And he's reigning through the
Holy Spirit right now through the mystery of his church.
And so the true Israel is the one holy Catholic
and Apostolic Church. And therefore, who do you see rejecting millenarianism.

(21:12):
Who do you see rejecting this false Protestant premillennial dispensationalism.
Who amongst Christians you see have always rejected it. Those
who have a reading of the Apocalypse as being primarily
a liturgical book that if you read the symbolism correctly.
You see, it's a temple symbolism related to the mysteries

(21:38):
Christ established as the high priest of his kingdom, by
which he reigns as the Lamb of God. You'll notice
the Lamb of God appearing in chapter five of Revelation,
you see the Lamb of God appearing on Mount Zion,
and chapter fourteen of Revelation you see the Lamb of
God particularly appearing when the New Jerusalem comes down out
of heaven. You see that the lamb is resting on

(22:00):
the foundation of the apostles Apostolic succession, which makes present
the body and blood of Jesus, the Lamb of God.
And therefore, when the city comes down, there's no temple.
Rather there's a land a lamb standing in the middle
of the city. So in chapter twenty one in the
Book of Revelation, a lamb is in the middle of
the city. In other words, the true heavenly city is

(22:21):
God's divinity and God sharing his divinity, which brings humans
to participate in eternal life. And therefore we're entering the
true land God always wanted, which is eternal life. That's
what God always wanted to give the people, and that's
what Moses manifested. Moses was going to give them the land.
The land was just a symbol and sign of what

(22:43):
God really wanted to give, and that was a sharing
in his divinity. And that's a whole nother theological discussion,
but that's why Jesus actually accomplishes what Moses didn't finish.
Moses could go under the cloud on Mount Sinai eventually,
so that cloud that he went into on Mount Sinai

(23:05):
is the very sign of a temple. And when Moses
constructs the tent of meeting, the whole construction of the
Tent of meeting is based on the cloud coming down
on Mount Sinai. A Holy of Holies separated by the
side of the mountain, a holy place separated by a
border at the base of the mountain, in which people
on the outside are in the outer courtyard waiting to

(23:27):
enter into the holy place and into the Holy of Holies.
In other words, the true land God always wanted people
to enter, was his divinity, just like Moses did. But
they sinned and broke the covenant before they could receive
entering into that Holy of Holies. To be a kingdom
of priests. Exodus, Chapter nineteen verse five. That's why Saint
Peter says, Now in Jesus Christ, you are a kingdom

(23:49):
of priests, which means you're entering the Holy of Holies
because you're participating what Jesus, the Lamb of God, gives
you his body and blood, so that through the humanity
of the Messiah, you participate in his divinity. So Jesus
is the land. Jesus is the son of David. So
he is the land, and he is the race who

(24:11):
brings the whole world into the blessing. So all the
promises of Abraham, which are the Torah, that's the Torah.
The promises are realized in Jesus. The Mosaic law was
just a temporary holder until the fullness of the revelation
of Torah could be given. That's Jesus.

Speaker 2 (24:29):
So if you want to I think that, I think that,
apart from distensationalism, wasn't there a certain current of thought
that appears in unlikely places throughout the history of Christendom,
the idea that the Jews will be converted at the end.
I mean, I can think of a poem of John
Dunn that willudes to that, for example. So this is

(24:52):
totally a mistaken idea.

Speaker 5 (24:54):
It's a deathitely, a mistaken idea, the idea of any
earthly there's nothing in scripture that discusses except from people
applying an over interpretation, which is outside of the line
of thought of Saint Paul in Romans chapter eleven. There
is a misuse of the one time all Israel will

(25:14):
be saved. In the context of all Paul's thought, the
idea that all Jews are going to be converted before
Christ returns is not in scripture. It is you know,
it's a dreamy hope. It's a happy kind of neat hope.
But it doesn't have a foundation in those passages that
to which people appeal. And so the Church, especially in Augustine,

(25:39):
rejected it any form of a realization of the kingdom
before the second Coming, in other words, the full flourishing
of the Kingdom that it's going to be seen, especially
as you'll read paragraph six hundred and seventy six of
the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Millenarianism is not something new,
but it is something the Church condemned and said, this

(26:01):
is not the way to understand the revelation that's given
by Jesus Christ and the Apostolic writers, and so it's
producing a you know, a misunderstanding, minimally a misunderstanding.

Speaker 4 (26:18):
This is for Andrew I was curious, have there been
any commentaries, whether religious or political, from the Jewish side
about Christian Zionism. I mean, has anyone spoken about this
reacted to it.

Speaker 5 (26:34):
Well, certainly you're going to find that that that the
Jewish rabbinical leadership absolutely is horrified by Christian Zionism. But
they'll certainly accept the support of Christians for their return
to the land of Israel. But they certainly don't want
Christians pushing there their religious perspectives upon the rabbinic leadership.

(26:59):
Some rabbi have teased and said, you know, it was
too much for us when all the Christians were beating us,
and so they were beating us to death, and now
the problem is they're hugging us to death. And so
this is this aspect by which look, you know, hey,
we're glad you're not beating us anymore. And you want
to support our false messianic hopes of a savior who

(27:24):
is going to be a political, military leader, who is
going to bring Jewish rule to all the earth. Well,
you know what there was an inadequacy to the Jewish
understanding of law that Christ brings it to the point
of understanding It's law is not about extrinsic control of
your hand. The law is about interior conversion and interior change.

(27:51):
By not only is your outward actions falling within the law,
but even your interior desiring is renewed and transfigured through
the love of God in Jesus Christ. And so the
actual meaning of the law is this interior conversion by

(28:15):
which the law is only fulfilled and completed through love.
And so the sermon on the Mount given by the
Messiah that the Son of David, the Sermon on the
Mount is not pie in the sky discussion. It's about
striving in the imitation of Christ, to enter the mind
of Christ and take on the virtues of Christ by

(28:38):
the power of the Holy Spirit, who through faith empowers
us not only to stop breaking the ten Commandments, but
entering into what it actually means to love as God loves.
Because if you don't understand that, then loving your enemy
will make no sense. Doing good to those who hate
you makes no sense. The idea that adultery isn't just

(29:00):
about not actually sleeping with people who are not your spouse,
but not even looking at pornography and wishing you could,
because there's a necessary interior conversion and change by which
love and actual justice, true justice, not human justice, but
divine justice, what it means to make someone whole. And

(29:24):
that's what the law is about, a wisdom that brings
someone to completion and fulfillment. It's not an external prohibition.
It's about interior realization. That's why Jesus is the Messiah
and savior of the world, because through him we have
the grace to actually be not just controlled exteriorly, but interiorly,

(29:45):
to learn that we actually desire authentic justice and not
self centered satisfaction.

Speaker 6 (29:53):
I was wondering, Uh, So, it seems what you're saying
that the claim of the Christ of Israel to Palestine,
you can call it, that is based on a false
theological presupposition. And if that's the case, what is the
difference between that and say, political zionism. Is there a

(30:16):
ground for political Zionism. If there's not a ground for
theological scientism.

Speaker 5 (30:21):
There is the ground for political Zionism. That I'm arguing
is that is political Zionism. Is the situation the world
was left with during the time of the British mandate
over Palestine, which was colonial. So we were left with
the fact that a lot of Jewish people had migrated,

(30:42):
that British instigation had begun, a migration of a homeland
by which they felt like they could establish liberal forms
of democracy that existed in Europe at that time, and
a constitutional state that was based on the understanding of
human rights that were developing under republican forms of democracy

(31:06):
that we saw in the British Parliament and in the
American experiment of republican forms of democracy, that the Jewish
people could establish that for themselves, that somehow this would
be a good to bring into Palestine and to establish
that within the lands and amongst the peoples that were there.

(31:27):
But it was being done under colonials mentality that is
foreign to the world after World War Two. After World
War two, colonialism was no longer an acceptable project, particularly
when we look at the whole setting of post World
War two. We no longer have monarchies. Most of the
world is moving to republican forms of democracy. The Ottoman

(31:50):
Empire no longer exists. There's been a major breakdown. We've
got the development of the Soviet Union going on. There's
a lot of displaced Jews, particularly from the Holocaust that
happened under the Nazi ideology, and so it was accepted
that there was a state at least that all these
people who were left homeless, who had been abused could

(32:12):
find a proper liberal democracy after the colonialism of the
British Empire that they could call home. And so the
world decided to support that in that homeland, but it
didn't mean that they necessarily were now going to support
them after the Geneva Conventions and say you now, as
a Jewish state, have the right to continue practicing that
colonialism and start taking lands that were never under your

(32:38):
control before nineteen forty eight, because they had been occupied
from time immemorial by Palestinian Christians and Muslims, who were
eighty percent plus of the actual population of Palestine, of
which they were a smaller minority, trying to push out
that majority of Palestinian Arabs. And so what people don't

(33:02):
grasp is the shift that happened after World War Two,
why it was politically unacceptable to go beyond the boundaries
that the United Nations recognized for that group of people
under British mandate who practiced colonialism. I mean, can you
imagine the United States going, we have the right at
any moment to go into Mexico because we have a

(33:25):
more superior vision based on Anglo Saxon propositions, and so
at any time we want, we can just start taking
over Mexican lands because we see them as an inferior
as an inferior people with inferior government. And so if
they resist us, well you know we're allowed to use force.
If they try to resist what are colonialism, Well you'd

(33:47):
be like, that's crazy. Matthew here suggests such a thing.
Po that's the response you're getting from the Arab world
of the Palestinians who have occupied those hands of which
they don't view the Jews having any right to it. So,
not only do Christians believe there is no theological religious

(34:09):
claim to say, well, my ancestors in seventy a d.
Used to live here, and so I have a right
to just take this land back. Well, there's a two
thousand year history that's happened since that time, and so
also the continuation the religious understanding of God's promises that
belonged to the people before seventy a D. Those promises

(34:31):
continued for Israel, but Israel was reconstituted in Jesus Christ,
who is a Jew, and under Jesus Christ, that Jew
who made a covenant with God, that Jew who made
a new covenant with all people, was also very clear
that in the rejection of him, and this is in
Matthew twenty one, that God is going to kick off

(34:56):
the people who reject his Messiah, who are in involved
in the rejection of Messiah, who with the Romans cooperate
in killing the son of the vineyard owner. When the
vineyard owner sends his son, Jesus says, look, Matthew chapter
twenty one. You know, God was sending his servants to

(35:17):
this vineyard, and the people who ran the vineyard said,
we don't feel like giving our produce, and they were
killing the servants that were sent. So the vineyard owner said,
you know what, I'm going to send my son. Surely
they won't kill my son. And Jesus says, so the
vineyard owner said, hey, here's the guy who inherits everything,
and so let's kill him too. And Jesus says, what
do you think the owner of the vineyard is going

(35:37):
to do to those people? And the leadership of that
time said, well, they're going to the Lord of the
vineyard is going to kick those people off and let
other tenants take it over. So, actually, according to God,
who Christians believe, it's the same God of Abraham, Isaac
and Jacob, who now has finished his covenant in Jesus,

(35:58):
the Messiah was very clear, you actually have no more
claim to this land. He's actually fulfilled his promise. He
has given the Messiah and the true land he always
promised is the Messiah. And the Messiah is not a
temple made by human hands. So the Messiah doesn't need
an earthly geography to operate. He brings heaven to earth.

Speaker 2 (36:23):
Let's shift years and talk about politics, but instead of theology. Now,
obviously the United States is practically the only major supporter
of Israel in the world today. And why does Israel
hosts an outsized influence on US policy? Is that the

(36:46):
influence of the Jewish lobby? Is it the influence of
Christian Protestants Zionists.

Speaker 5 (36:52):
So I'll speak as a theologian. I'll answer this political
question from a theological perspective. I would point to John
Meersheimer and his two thousand and six or so work
on the undue influence.

Speaker 2 (37:04):
Of the.

Speaker 5 (37:07):
U is an a pack I believe is the acronym
for what people refer.

Speaker 4 (37:11):
To as as the influence of.

Speaker 5 (37:13):
The Jewish lobby. And so yes, I would agree with
those assessments in which there's an undue influence. But the
reason there's an undue influence is not because of some
kind of conspiracy of the Jewish Jewish people who live
in Israel, or the dual citizens who live in the

(37:35):
United States as Americans who are also Israeli citizens. It's
actually it's actually people who aren't Jewish. It is actually
the Christian evangelical lobby, which dominates the Conservative parties. It
is their influence that is pushing this because of their

(37:58):
false millenarianism, because of their false reading of Romans chapters
nine through eleven, which that is applied to the thousand
year reign in the Book of the Apocalypse. Because they
read this in terms of what we call futurists, that
the Book of Revelation has not yet occurred, versus what
we call a preterist reading that most of the stuff

(38:21):
being written has already occurred. The Book of Revelation is
really about the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, the
war that began in sixty six A d under Nero
that six six six is Nero. It's pretty much clear
as day that the six sixty six is a reference
to Kaiser Nero. It's traditional to give a numerology to

(38:47):
match someone's name, so to spell someone's name with numbers.
This was done all the time in Rome. And you
can't walk around Rome with saying Caesar Nero is the
Antichrist in a document. It's going to get you killed
if you're found with that document. So let those with
wisdom calculate the number of the beast. Well, we have

(39:10):
ancient manuscripts, some have sixty six six is the number
of the beasts. And that's where when you take the
Greek kaiser nern and then you put it into a
Hebrew alphanumeric code, so A is one, b is two,
C is three, D is four. Following those patterns, there's

(39:31):
certain numbers that align up with a spelling in Greek
of Kaiser Nero. When you put it into a Hebrew alphabet,
you get six hundred and sixty six. And what's so
funny is we have Latin translations in which the actually
the number ends up being calculated as six one six.

(39:51):
So when you take the Latin and you then put
its spelling, which loses the ending of the end of
the neron, you now lose, you know, So you get
from six hundred and sixty six to six hundred and sixteen,
so you're you're losing what fifty if Sorry, it's later
in the evening for me, and so it's clear it's

(40:14):
a reference to Kaiser Nero from two different ways of
calculating it of the ancient manuscripts we have, and he's
even when it comes to the heads of the beast.
I'm sorry it's late at night for me, but clearly
he even matches when he said when it says one
of the heads is now and one is yet to come.

(40:35):
When you count the number of the heads and the
line of the Julio Claudius line of emperors, it's Nero
in that number of which head of the beast you're upon.
So it's pretty much pretty much clear as Dave that
what was being talked about is the destruction of Jerusalem.
And since the temples destroyed, don't worry. We have a
temple that comes down from heaven, which is the Messiah

(40:58):
now grant it. Even though most of what's written there
has been fulfilled, it hasn't been consummated. In other words,
the Kingdom is present through the sacraments and through the preaching,
and through grace and participation in the Kingdom. But the
Kingdom's not complete in me. Even though Christ lives in me,

(41:20):
there's aspects of my life I haven't let him in.
I'm not You can't identify me fully with the Kingdom.
I'm still sinful. I had minimally venial sins. The consummation
that comes at the end, certainly that hasn't happened. And
so they're still meaning for the Book of Revelation in
spiritual applications. But notice that people who don't have a

(41:42):
liturgical tradition read the Book of Revelation as futurists. And
that's why all these non mainline Protestants who have no
understanding of liturgy and no understanding of musterion translating the sacrament,
they fall right into these futurist readings of a thousand
year phys reign of Christ, instead of understanding the Church

(42:04):
through the apostolic succession by which Christ makes possible. You know,
the foundation of the city is the twelve Apostles upon
which the Lamb stands, which is the Mount Zion that's
spoken of in so in other words, it's the Catholic Liturgy.
You know, obviously the Orthodox have true Apostolic succession, So

(42:25):
call it the divine Liturgy of the Orthodox and Catholics
and the reign of Christ until he comes in glory.

Speaker 4 (42:37):
If one were to take Catholic social teaching, and particularly
the teaching about the rights of peoples to their to
govern themselves, you know, the more modern, more recent Catholic
social teaching, what we have in Vatican two and so on,
and if you applied that through the situation of let's
say Israel and Palestine, whether in the forties or today,

(43:01):
I mean, what would you sort of end up with?
Would you end up with the state of Israel at all,
or what kind of I know it's a big question,
but do you have any sense of what that solution
would be to just applying Catholic social teaching to that situation?

Speaker 5 (43:15):
I would hope. So, I would hope you'd have minimally
either a two state solution or one state in which
Arab and Hebrew live together under some form of constitutional
law by which they all enjoy the same rights of

(43:36):
that constitutional governance. And so listen, constitutional governance is not
foreign to Islamic understanding. You have Malaysia, you have constitutionally
successful other parts of the world with large Muslim populations
that are willing to live according to constitutional law. It's
not impossible, but you got to reduce all the hatreds.

(43:59):
At this point, there's a lot of people who are
killing each other in this religious zealotry, and which we
also have to say, Look, it's not religious zelotry to say, hey,
you have no right to push me off my land,
my ancestral land. You can't claim God gave you the
right when it's very clear according to Christian tradition and

(44:20):
according to Muslim tradition, you no longer have any right
to this land. So, in other words, I understand the
jew where they're like, we don't want a Christian telling
us what to do, and we don't want a Muslim
telling us what to do. But my answer is, at
least let history tell you what to do. You have
operated as Judaism for two thousand years without a temple.
You have no need to take that land unless you're

(44:44):
planning on rebuilding the temple. Why would you want to
rebuild a temple and return to mosaic sacrificial law when
we're two thousand years past that. That's why I absolutely
reject and fight religious Zionism.

Speaker 4 (44:59):
It's no sense.

Speaker 5 (45:00):
And even the Israeli leadership mostly most of them say
those people are crazy. And so the whole nineteen ninety
three Oslo Accords, that was the real division that triggered
the religious Zionist movement. The Oslo Accords were trying to
move to a two state solution, and the religious Jews

(45:23):
realized what it meant. They assassinated Rabin because they didn't
want it. They started trying to do more of the
taking the lands by force. And so you have the
admittance today, and I put an article as well out
about that in which you have shin Bet acknowledging that
religious Zionus, the settler movement, which is antagonizing Muslims, which

(45:49):
is violently trying to force them off the land, is
causing this revolt and the and this ongoing fighting back.
And so there's this nasty psych the violence which to
some degree is spurred by the religious settler movement because
it's very clear. The head of shin Bet says this
is being caused by them. The current head of shin Bet,

(46:11):
the retired head of Masad from he'd retired in twenty sixteen,
he just said, quote, Israel is an apartheid state and
explained why it is. You have the former Prime Minister
of Israel saying there are horrible crimes that everyone knows
are being committed by these settler movements, and NETANYAHUO is

(46:33):
going to be served with court orders for his arrest
for the crimes that they're turning a blind eye to. So,
according to Catholic social doctrine, can we actually find a solution.
That's what the Church was trying to do when it
didn't even recognize the state of Israel until nineteen ninety

(46:54):
three because of the Oslo Accords. It was willing to
recognize Israel was a political, constitutional state that was not
basing itself upon this attempt to build a third temple.
And I'm telling you now it is that sounds crazy
to most people, but if you read the literature, you
read what the religious settlers are saying, you read what
all the movements are saying that is now sitting on

(47:16):
netting Yahoo's cabinet and they are trying to lead the
people to the building of the Third Temple. It is,
it is gaining momentum. It is no longer just the
crazies on the fringe. It is now intrinsic to those
people who are refusing a two state solution. And it
is my opinion that Netan Yahoo caters to these religious,

(47:41):
zealous groups of settlers that are operating contrary to international law.
He's catering them to keep his governing coalition together, and
that is a real threat to international law period. And
those are the pressures that currently exist today the heart
of this problem. So if you wanted to go into

(48:02):
Catholic social doctrine, we'd have to go into questions on
the universal destination of goods. We'd have to go into
questions that then move into rights of people who are
on a land to continue on that land, and neither side.
Both sides needed protect it from any forms of genocide,
the Jews from an Arab genocide and the Palestinians from

(48:25):
ethnic cleansing by religious settlers who feel like I'm a
mandate from God, you're in my way, I have the
right to kill you according to God, and that is
what they're saying.

Speaker 4 (48:35):
Document mister true.

Speaker 6 (48:37):
Yeah, I wonder about so much of the identicse religious Zionists,
because it seems that you look back to the history
of the State of Israel, and I'm not a great
extra on this, but you had original Zionism, or looking
for a hemeland for the Jews. There was actually I
think it was Uganda was actually it was one of
the places contemplated for for a Jewish settlement. Much of

(49:02):
the Jewish settlers the beginning were not even religious Jews.
Many of them were socialists. I mean, the the Kibbutz
movement was heavily socialist, particularly religious, and even the identification
of the support for the state of Israel the United
States doesn't seem fully religious, because I don't think the
evangelicals have much of an influence of the Democratic Party.

(49:24):
But nevertheless, the Democratic Party is just as zealous for
the State of Israel as Republicans, and one might even
argue right now even more so, I wonder with.

Speaker 5 (49:36):
Actual politically for one reason, of the Democrats, I think overall,
what I've seen is with Joe Biden, there has been
an attempt to work against in other words, the Republicans
have been using Democrat attempts to stop Nettan Yahoo as

(49:59):
some have now in violation of the American spirit, and
they've been using it as a cudgel.

Speaker 6 (50:04):
But I didn't.

Speaker 5 (50:05):
I apologize. I didn't mean to cut you off in
anyway and what you were saying. But I believe there's
a dynamic that exists that Republicans in this election season
particularly are using as a cudgel lack of Democratic support
as a reason to vote for them based on the
current situation. I apologize, I interrupted Ganda. You're talking about

(50:27):
the Originally they even looked at Uganda.

Speaker 6 (50:29):
Yeah, I mean, I think, I think there's a whole
lot of There's one thing I don't quite understand is
that if Christians said we had a right to any
place to live based upon the fact you're Christians, everyone
would reject it. I don't see that the claim that
Jews to have the whole the Palestine is based upon Ultimately,
it's based upon a religious principle that there are Jews

(50:52):
they belong because to be a Jew is in some
way to follow the ritual law. I would think, right.
But yet there's actually a political aspect to it too,
which is divorced from the pure Judaism, and it's true.
I think you're right to say that Republicans say this
and that about the Democrats. But I would think that

(51:12):
Joe Biden has shown that he has. He plays like
he's being tough with Israel, but he actually has. Is
Rill did what they want to do, and Apak has
influence on both sides of the Aisle in our government,
seems to me, and I don't understand it quite why
that is. Despite that is so, it's been a mystery
for me for many years. I can't figure it out,

(51:34):
but it seems yet to be the case. And so
the political Zionism, what is its basis? Exactly? What is its?
The claim that the Jews should have been old to
come from Europe and settle Palestine even at the beginning,
seems a strange thing to say if people are already
living there. I understand the whole aspect about religious established
a liberal government, but the very fact that that was

(51:57):
allowed and even encouraged, and then the place was divine
between people who had never lived there before and people
who had lived there for centuries seemed very strange phenomenon.

Speaker 5 (52:09):
You have to look at it at the political dynamics
of that time. In other words, since you had the
British mandate of the Middle East in that region and
you had Jewish communities that always had some kind of
to some degree, there's always been episodes in the seventeenth century,

(52:30):
in the eighteenth century of attempts of Jewish migration based
on Messianic figures within Judaism that occurred in the Middle
East and even in Europe, and so there had been
many forms of that before, and so there was certainly
a movement within the British Empire. And I think this
is where it's key to understand British thinking of political

(52:54):
instruments for control. And so I think you have to
see why the timing worked so well through the British
Empire at the time of nineteen seventeen, during which World
War One was climaxing and there was the necessity of
rallying various Allied nations and their constituencies to still maintain

(53:20):
support for the war. And part of that was an
appeal that in doing this we also are calling on
Jewish constituency and this is written about and some of
the motivation of the Bow four Declarations was political. It
was to garner Jewish support during World War One and

(53:41):
assistance and the way that those networks worked of rabbis
through knowing what Britain stood for supporting the Allies all
the more in the completion of World War One and
the promise of a dream. It's always been a dream, yes,
from a religious perspective amongst Jews, that somehow they would

(54:02):
have peace within their own homeland in the kind fines
of their ancestors. So that's certainly religious. But political Zionism
took place through a colonialism that was acceptable at that
time and still left us with a Jewish ethnic group
in British mandated Palestine that when the Brits left, you

(54:24):
still have that Jewish ethnicity that wanted a self governance
that did not allow any kind of Islamic governance over them.
That was the whole point of having that land. Now,
the whole reason not choosing Uganda is, of course, no
one's going to leave Europe to go rebuild Africa because
has nothing to do with any heritage national identity. So

(54:44):
these are remote musings. The reality is in the nineteen
hundreds in the British Empire, the British were in a
position to gather people from Europe, from the Allied nations,
particularly Jews, to migrate and start bringing liberal democracy. See
where frankly, I mean, take a look not just at
religious thinking, but political, economic and energy thinking of the

(55:08):
kind of populations you want cooperating with you, because you
assisted them to take those lands. And so there's this
ongoing cooperation politically. Who are the biggest supporters of Israel
today Britain and the United States.

Speaker 6 (55:25):
Yeah, I think it's and that doesn't actually address the
question today because what we have now, of course, is
you have there's a Jewish population Palace and they've been
there for over one hundred years, right, and we can't
the answer can't be is driving them out? That would
just that would be its important justice, right, But it
just seems like they're that they're they're considered to have

(55:47):
a right to this land by a political elite, which
in a way that the Palestinians are not seen to
have right.

Speaker 5 (55:54):
And that would be from a deep state of the
former British policies and the reasons it was established amongst
the British, which the Americans continue. And so you have
operating at a entrenched political vision level of a bureaucracy.
Mem we call the deep state the bureaucracy that remains

(56:15):
through administrations and that vision for why they're placed there.
And again I agree with you and support and no
way do want to do. I want to see I
want to see them successfully stay. But successfully staying does
not mean giving them the right to take land that
does not belong to them. It's just that simple. That's

(56:37):
contrary to international law. So you have to have either
the two state solution or some combination of that that
allows both people to coexist under constitutional law.

Speaker 6 (56:47):
I mean, the hard thing is is that they have
taken land doesn't belong to them, and that's that's historically
the case, but you know that's that's part of colonialism
in any case. We our ancestors did the same sort
of thing, and you can't just go back and see
has to turn the land back over to the original inhabitants.
But right there has to be some kind of solution

(57:10):
which I guess morally speaking, returns the Palestinies their right
to that land. Yeah, I don't see that it's going
to happen.

Speaker 5 (57:19):
No. What I what I would argue, and what I'm
arguing is we have to deal with the reality on
the ground, and the reality on the ground is after
the British left their mandate, we had a state of
Israel along existing alongside and inside what was Palestine. That's
why Gaza Gaza is so separated from the West Bank.

(57:40):
And so of course the rewards, but even the wars
themselves are not as innocent as oh my gosh, the
Arabs unprovoked tried to tried to drive us back. There's
a little bit more complexity than that kind of argument.
And so the reality is those people, through the colonialism
of the British Empire, by which international law through the

(58:02):
League of Nations established them and allowed it. We can't
just undo that. The right thing to do is to
ensure that both states exist without ongoing violations of international law.
Since nineteen forty eight, when.

Speaker 2 (58:14):
Do you see any possibility that the US government could
ever be converted to the viewpoint of your espousing right now?

Speaker 5 (58:24):
Well, allegedly they were. That was the viewpoint of the
United States. So either that really was how they set
things up and how everyone agreed to respect these things,
and the whole reason we still have the United Nations,
of which the headquarters is in New York, city, and
so I'm not asking them to buy in. In other words,

(58:46):
you know, this vision was the United States vision with
the UN according to the charters and according to everything else.

Speaker 2 (58:55):
To claim it was to claimed policy of the US,
yes it was. We didn't do it very much. Actually.

Speaker 5 (59:02):
To bring it about, well, you all are going to
be as knowledgeable. So in other words, I'm not a
political scientist. I have a little bit of study to
be able to have this conversation. I have to address
it more as a theologian according to what's morally acceptable
of things that can be done in accord with the

(59:23):
social doctor and the tea of the church in regards
to laws governing people's nations. How has the church always operated?
The Catholic Church was the main driver behind the two
states solution so that a just solution could be met
without ongoing violations of international law. Yes, we'll let you speak,

(59:48):
but I.

Speaker 2 (59:49):
Just yeah, And you know, Christopher, we're getting closing up
our hour. Now, do you have anything you'd like to add?

Speaker 6 (59:59):
Either of you?

Speaker 2 (01:00:02):
Oh?

Speaker 4 (01:00:02):
Thank you?

Speaker 2 (01:00:03):
Okay, Well, this is unless end with a Hail Mary
in particularly for peace in the Holy Land. Sure Hill Mary,
full of grace. The Lord is with THEE blessed our
tell amone women, blessed is it for Jesus, Holy Mary Mother,
You've gone pray for most theres now all our death.

(01:00:24):
Thank you very much for being our guest this evening,
and I enjoyed the conversation very much.

Speaker 5 (01:00:29):
Yeah, so thank you. Real pleasure to meet all of you, Uh,
Andrew and Christopher as well. Thank you, Thomas. I don't
know Sebastigan so hear me, but thank you as well,
and uh much much appreciated. So God pleasure, Thank.

Speaker 6 (01:00:43):
You, thank you, good night, good night.

Speaker 1 (01:00:47):
Hello, God's beloved. I'm Annabel Moseley, author, professor of theology
and host of them Sings My Soul and Destination Sainthood
on w c A T Radio. I invite you to
listen in and find inspiration along this sacred journey. We're
traveling together to make our lives a masterpiece and with

(01:01:08):
God's grace, become saints. Join me Annabel Moseley for then
Sings My Soul and Destination Sainthood on WCAT Radio. God
bless you. Remember you are never alone. God is always
with you.

Speaker 4 (01:01:30):
Thank you for listening to a production of WCAT Radio.
Please join us in our mission of evangelization, and don't
forget Love lifts up when knowledge takes flight.