In this episode of The Open Door, Thomas Storck and Christopher Zehnder interview Vicente Hargous, attorney, Professor of Constitutional Law in the Universidad Finis Terrae, Santiago, Chile, and editor of the online review, Suroeste. https://revistasuroeste.cl/
1. On your website you write regarding Hispanic America that, "It is not difficult to find our land on maps, where we are, but to understand what we are and what we are called to be in the history of the world is not so easy."
In a 2002 article, two Chilean professors, a philosopher and an anthropologist, set forth four possible cultural self-identities which have been advanced by Latin Americans: the indigenist, the hispanic, an identification with the Western world in general and the thesis of "mestizage cultural" or a fusion of indigenist with Spanish or Western identities. Could you comment on any of these points?
2. You also speak on your website of the various ideas and trends which are affecting the entire world, but especially the West. You mention among others environmentalism, feminism, indigenism, esoteric currents.
Given that both Europe and North America are affected by these ideas, do they affect Latin America in any particular ways?
3. In North America we read much about the inroads of Protestantism in South and Central America and Mexico. Is this another example of North American cultural imperialism or does it speak to any weaknesses of the Catholic Church, either historical or contemporary? Does the Catholic Church play a role today in setting the cultural agenda in Hispanic America?
4. How has Hispanic American culture changed in the last 50 years? Culturally speaking, can it defend itself against trends originating in North America or Europe?
5. Your review, Suroeste, is connected with the organization Comunidad y Justicia, which works to promote human rights in Chile. What is the connection between the review and the organization? How does your Catholic commitment inspire both? https://comunidadyjusticia.cl/
6. As a continent originally nearly entirely Catholic, is there any realistic hope of restoring the Church's cultural and religious role?
7. How does the overwhelming influence, political and economic, of the United States affect the cultural situation of Latin America?
1. On your website you write regarding Hispanic America that, "It is not difficult to find our land on maps, where we are, but to understand what we are and what we are called to be in the history of the world is not so easy."
In a 2002 article, two Chilean professors, a philosopher and an anthropologist, set forth four possible cultural self-identities which have been advanced by Latin Americans: the indigenist, the hispanic, an identification with the Western world in general and the thesis of "mestizage cultural" or a fusion of indigenist with Spanish or Western identities. Could you comment on any of these points?
2. You also speak on your website of the various ideas and trends which are affecting the entire world, but especially the West. You mention among others environmentalism, feminism, indigenism, esoteric currents.
Given that both Europe and North America are affected by these ideas, do they affect Latin America in any particular ways?
3. In North America we read much about the inroads of Protestantism in South and Central America and Mexico. Is this another example of North American cultural imperialism or does it speak to any weaknesses of the Catholic Church, either historical or contemporary? Does the Catholic Church play a role today in setting the cultural agenda in Hispanic America?
4. How has Hispanic American culture changed in the last 50 years? Culturally speaking, can it defend itself against trends originating in North America or Europe?
5. Your review, Suroeste, is connected with the organization Comunidad y Justicia, which works to promote human rights in Chile. What is the connection between the review and the organization? How does your Catholic commitment inspire both? https://comunidadyjusticia.cl/
6. As a continent originally nearly entirely Catholic, is there any realistic hope of restoring the Church's cultural and religious role?
7. How does the overwhelming influence, political and economic, of the United States affect the cultural situation of Latin America?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You're listening to w c a T Radio, your home
for authentic Catholic programming.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Welcome to the Open Door.
Speaker 3 (00:08):
The host Thomas Stewart and co host Christopher Zender and
andrews Rakowski.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Andrew will be back with us again next month.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
He's now here today, and we'll start with our prayer. Come,
Holy Spirit, till the hearts of your faith part and
kindling them the fire of your love. Send forth your spirit,
and then shall be created, and you shall renew the
face of the earth. Let us pray, O God, who
has talked faith, the light of the Holy Spirit granted
(00:38):
in the same steer, maybe touly wise, we rejoiced, Christ,
our Lord and father son of the wise spirits.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Amen.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Well today, our guests, mister Attorney Charney Constitutional Law venus
prr An editor of The Reviewed.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
We're very happy to have you with UH.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Thank you for her coming now on your website.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Spanish America. That America.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
It is not difficult to find her land on maps
from when they know, but to understand what we are,
what we are called to be in the of the
world is also easy.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Along with that.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
In the two thousand article, UH, interesting articles that I've
read too. Chilean professors, philosopher and anthropolishers up set for
four possible wultu self identities have advanced in Latin America,
the indigenous and the Hispanic identification with the rest of
the world in general, and the thesis of the Thai
(01:48):
cultural cultural or a fusion of indigit indigenous with Spanish
or Western identities. Could you comment at any of those
points for the point you're making about finding your place
in the world.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
Well, first of all, morning, good to be here, and
thank you very much for your kindness and the invitation. Yes,
of course, in my opinion, the position that holds a
view of the West does something unitary, has many.
Speaker 5 (02:26):
Blind spots, so to speak.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
In fact, there is no single Western culture and usually
alluded in these terms to the geopolitical poll of the
nature liberalism, capitalism, Anglo Saxon culture, Protestantism, et cetera. But
if we look closely at our Latin American context or history,
(02:52):
we will see that those kind of consensus are enter
it here in our culture only thirty or maybe forty
years ago, by the way of the globalization. The visions
(03:13):
of Hispanic and Indigenous identities, on the other hand, have
some points of truth I believe, because clearly there is
something indigenous in indigenous in US Indian, I mean, I
don't know how to say it, but indigenous native in US.
(03:35):
But there is also something Hispanic in US. So the
answer I think would be the mestisake.
Speaker 5 (03:44):
Yeah, the crossblood Mestisaki.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
And there is a philosophical foundation for this answer, I believe,
explained by our Leian philosopher Padreros Baldolina Tilean priests, which
is the elemorphic structure mattern form, Ramiro and mice to
(04:12):
also set it before in.
Speaker 5 (04:15):
Spain, and.
Speaker 4 (04:22):
Spain provided the spirit so to speak, language, culture, religion, education, philosophy,
et cetera, and the indigenous peoples provided the matter so
to speak, which is also very important. Blood, soil and
(04:43):
both are necessary to shape our identity. One one influences
the other. The spirit exists incarnate, giving a new accent
to language or different emphasis in religion, different styles news,
(05:04):
styles in art, and this is how is Pan American
or Latin American Baroque was formed.
Speaker 5 (05:15):
This is clearly seen if you see if you see
religious art.
Speaker 4 (05:20):
For example, for instance, the images of the Virgin Mary
with her cloaks here in Latin America, in Indian cultures
and adopted a figure that imitates the mountains, which are
very important in Andian cultures. And you can you can
(05:46):
mention many other examples. But I think that's the answer. Therefore, mestisaki,
but a messisaki, which is a cultural not just like
it's it's not only the blood that that matters. It's
everything the spirit and leads incarnate. And that's the answer
(06:09):
I believe.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
M hmm.
Speaker 6 (06:16):
I was curious when you talk about mesasa, I know
the whole state the english Man, can you he's there
a world.
Speaker 5 (06:29):
I think, so okay, yes.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
I'm up. I assume that was unwarned assumption.
Speaker 5 (06:38):
It's like mixed blood, but it's also cultural. Yeah, yeah,
I know that.
Speaker 6 (06:43):
But my question would be there are different degrees of it, right,
and it sounds that in some parts a lot of them.
In Latin America it seems to be not at all.
I mean you some I think of some tribes, like
in northern Mexico mm, pretty much entirely indigenous. So we're
talking about study which is various different degrees, right, and
(07:05):
so is there I mean, so how do you accommodate
all those in those different forms of mixed mixedness, if
you want to call it that. And in this in
this vision of Latin America.
Speaker 5 (07:22):
Well, in my opinion this is also.
Speaker 4 (07:28):
And just an opinion, but I believe that blood is
it's not the race, it's it's not what's important here.
So you may have, for example, an Argentinian which is
quite white, so to speak, like.
Speaker 5 (07:50):
Blonde, and and.
Speaker 4 (07:53):
It's like European looking, but culturally and he is absolutely Spanish,
absolutely Catholic, absolutely.
Speaker 5 (08:06):
Latin American.
Speaker 4 (08:08):
If you if you look at him, if you look
at their their poetry, their art, their philosophy, it's absolutely American.
But Leonardo Castellani, for instance, it's creato, it's Jesuit. He
(08:29):
wrote many many books, literature, poetry, also philosophy, and you
you can.
Speaker 5 (08:36):
See very seem it's very acheen two.
Speaker 4 (08:42):
Chilean philosophers and also Mexican philosophers, and it's like a
way of thinking culture which is different. But also you
see he he looks like a European more than any
Bolivian or Peruvian probably, but the culture has many similitudes and.
Speaker 5 (09:07):
It's very similar, so to speak.
Speaker 4 (09:10):
And so of course you may have degrees but I
think that there's a like a a core identity which is.
Speaker 5 (09:21):
Mostly Hispanic.
Speaker 4 (09:23):
Even if there there are Italian influences in Argentina or
also English influences in Chile or wh there's also that
would be different in my opinion, from recent influences from
(09:45):
the States in Mexico or maybe in Puerto Rico and
regaton culture or that's that's clearly not the same. It's
something different, something new. But yeah, we can we can't
say there are degrees, of course.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
Well is the is the uh? You know, it seems
to me that that the culture is much more important
than any kind of ethnicity or blood or anything. And
even Europe, after all, was not uniformal uniform and it's
some ethnicity at the time of the day of the
fall of the Roman Empire.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
So it seems to me.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
When in my little bit of reading, which has mostly
been in Mexican material, that the indigenous is a little
bit artificial in the sense that they're they're mad at
the United States, often with good reason, uh, And one
of the ways they can assert themselves is to come
up with a pretended indigenous identity when in fact, culturally
(10:53):
they're Western just as much as we are, perhaps even
more because I don't like the idea that the United
States somehow sets the tone for what should be Western
culture and find out an way.
Speaker 4 (11:09):
Yeah yeah, maybe maybe not what it's usually understood that
like okay, what I said for like nature, liberalism, whatever. Yeah,
but of course there's also a common identity, a common
(11:34):
root between the States and Europe.
Speaker 5 (11:38):
Of course you're not Africa or Asia.
Speaker 4 (11:42):
But but yes, Europe, as you have you said, it's
also very very rich of cultures, many different cultures, even Spain.
Within Spain, you can distinguish many many colors and gad
(12:02):
Diego's Bass Cabalanis and there also have they also have
many things in common which are different from French people.
And I think you can say something similar in Latin America.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Yeah, I mean the.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
In in in the United States. I'm sure you're painfully aware. Uh,
we tend to judge every culture in terms of this
level of wealth and what what John Bulls like you
called the era.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Of economism, and so.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
We we put ourselves at the top of the heap
just because we claim to be more wealthy.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
And that's some culture is kind of neglected here.
Speaker 4 (12:48):
Well, that's your your thesis in the West in your
in your essay of.
Speaker 5 (12:54):
The Kingdom of Quantity. Yes, yes, yeah, yeah, it was
very good. I say, I must say, mm hmm, Christ.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
What you want to ask?
Speaker 6 (13:12):
Yeah, you know. I mean, you speak on your website
of the various ideas and trends which are affecting the
entire world, but especially the West. Amongst these environmentalism, feminism, indigenism,
esoteric currents, et cetera. Given them, both Europe and North
America are affected by these ideas. How do they affect
Latin America in any particular ways.
Speaker 5 (13:34):
Yes, indeed yes.
Speaker 7 (13:36):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (13:38):
Today Latin America or Ti Lane particular, is being strongly
influenced by the work ideology and the so called critical
theory post Marxism.
Speaker 5 (13:54):
Uh, we must not forget that.
Speaker 4 (13:56):
And the greatest and maybe greatest I don't know current
references figures of practical post Marxism are from our cultural environment.
Ernesto la Glow, for instance, and a Gemonian socialist strategy.
He was from Argentina, Garcia in Ea is from Bolivia
(14:19):
in u Grahoni Spanish. And yeah, we see it also
in the rulings of the Inter American Court of Human
Rights also we well, sou State is a project from
the NDO Communia. We maybe we can talk about it later,
(14:40):
and it's an end o, a human rights and geo.
We we work this kind of things, discussions and we
see the growing acceptance of gender ideology, proportion legislation in
many kind of trees. Indigenousm has penetrated also with very
(15:05):
strongly in Equador or Colombia, Olivia, in Chile, I think,
and it also had penetrated, but to a certain extent,
although in my opinion it has slowed.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Down or.
Speaker 4 (15:25):
During the president Borriage administration.
Speaker 5 (15:31):
Are our president. But well, whatever.
Speaker 8 (15:35):
I h, I think or maybe I don't think, I
feel that I feel because I'm not sure of the
not sure of the caust, but.
Speaker 4 (15:49):
I feel that we as Latin American countries are like
guinea pigs, like of the progressive academy world from the
discourse of human rights, a twisted version of human rights.
Actually they it's like they're experimenting honors as undeveloped countries,
(16:16):
even in countries with strong Catholic roots like Colombia for instance,
and even against people's wills and people's will. Sorry, they
they managed to impose the progressive policies rises and liberal
(16:37):
dogmas through for example, constitutional courts or administrative legislation rules.
And this in Colombia has been absolutely clear, also in
in Ecuador for instance. But yeah, INTI there's also a
(17:01):
very strong influence of the woke ideology and all of
these things. Environmentalism, I think that is not quite strong interpoint,
but indigenism, feminism, gender ideology and those who are very strong.
Speaker 5 (17:21):
And all into.
Speaker 6 (17:24):
You mentioned environmentalism and amongst each other isms. It's unclear
to me that environmentalism fits into what we would call
the world culture. I mean, at least in some understanding
of environmentalism, we're talking about the care of God's creation, right,
How is that? Why is that? Why do you include
(17:46):
that that term amongst these others.
Speaker 4 (17:52):
Well, of course I believe that we as Catholic and
also as human beings have a uh a duty to
take care of God's creation, yes, of course, and to
new generations and everything in the ind I think it's
(18:14):
in that sense very like perspicuous and I'm very accurate.
Speaker 5 (18:23):
But the thing is.
Speaker 4 (18:26):
When when we see, for instance, that people begin not
to having not having children in order to have just
a cat or a dog and even they they call
(18:50):
their dogs children when in Spanish us with the expression perichhus.
Speaker 5 (18:58):
Like that would mean in like m doctrine or you know,
dogs and children.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
Like like there their sons, they see them as the
of their children. And that's that's decadence, that that subversion
of things. I what what I meant environmentalism was that
radical environmentalism against naturalism, against against kids, against human beings,
(19:36):
and like a distortion of something which was true, like Chesterton.
Speaker 5 (19:43):
Chesterton said that.
Speaker 4 (19:48):
The I don't know how I was in English like
madness is like a true a truth which has un
crazy something like that, and lies are okay errors or
our truth and became crazy something like that.
Speaker 5 (20:13):
Yeah, yeah, so it's not.
Speaker 6 (20:16):
Yeah, focusing on the actual might be considered sound environmentalism,
consider you're talking about distortions of it.
Speaker 5 (20:26):
Where yeah, yeah, you may, you may say that way.
Of course.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
I hope I was correct, but I assumed that the word.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
Was a rough equivalent to what we would call environmentalism.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
In the English.
Speaker 4 (20:44):
Yes, yes, yes, I I think it's it's good environmentalism.
Speaker 5 (20:49):
I'm also I think.
Speaker 4 (20:52):
Maybe to say and acota he's mobile fundo would be
more accurate.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Deep ecology.
Speaker 4 (21:05):
We use it to but but we say like sound
environmentalism would be in Spanish like deep environmentalism.
Speaker 6 (21:17):
Absolutely, I said one more question from me, and it's
in regard to you talk about how we the western
particular the United States looks upon Latin America as a
kind of experimental station and so which include which implies
(21:39):
right that they look upon Latin Americans as inferior and
subjects of experiments. But I think back, like I've I've
read a lot of Mexican history. I don't really know
much about South America or Mexican history, and it seems
goes back very far. This goes back to the early
at least the early nineteenth century with the First Mexican Revolution.
(22:01):
And but you had it all all along. You have
Latin Americans who are Mexicans who seem to internalize that
the vision of themselves that they were inferior, they had
to they had to rise up to the challenge of
the great North American juggernaut. I think of that. But
then there's been reaction too. I think of that poem
(22:25):
Roosevelt by Raven d'arrio. Yeah, and so you have that reaction,
But to what degree have people in Latin America internalized
or come to agree with the assessment made made about
them by, say in the United States or Western Europe.
Speaker 5 (22:48):
Mm hmm, well, yes, I think that.
Speaker 4 (22:55):
Some political sectors, especially within the right wing liberals. Yeah,
right wing liberals. That's uh, that's a common statement. Yes,
and many many liberals here in Chili say things like that.
Speaker 5 (23:14):
But oh, we would.
Speaker 4 (23:17):
Be better if the brigs and have come here, have
have come here in spite of the Spanish. But I
don't know how how common it would and this is
to all our population. If it's difficult to say that,
(23:42):
I don't know. I don't really know. I think that
many and many people here in in Till at least,
and I believe that they see us as inferiors. But
and and of course they don't like it. But I
(24:02):
don't think they actually are in fear. I don't think
they believe it, at least, not not in Till.
Speaker 5 (24:12):
But well, it's it's difficult to answer.
Speaker 4 (24:17):
I don't have study sticks or the numbers.
Speaker 5 (24:23):
Your impression, your impression speaking, just an impression.
Speaker 4 (24:26):
Yeah, I think Chileian people it's very proud of of
their identity.
Speaker 5 (24:32):
Yeah, and.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
That's why indigenism here has been, had been has been
strongly rejected in our constitutional referendum here in till I
don't know if you if you.
Speaker 5 (24:51):
Know about it, we have we are.
Speaker 4 (24:55):
We We had two constitutional referendums here. One of those
contos constitutional referendums was to establish a new Chilean constitution,
which was very indigenous, and the people rejected with a
strong majority. So I think one of the one of
(25:18):
the reasons was precisely that we are.
Speaker 5 (25:22):
We are very proud of our Mestisa identity in the Anstica.
I don't know how to.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Sell one of one of the in the United States.
One of the one of the chief elements of our
cultural imperialism that we are concerned about, especially as Boss Catholics,
is the inroads of Protestantism in the Latin America. Sorry,
is the the the increase in nomber of Protestants in
(25:57):
Latin America. And I know that some countries, like some
of the Central American countries on door say or one
of all I, have hugely increased the number of Protestants,
and probably not so much in as Argentina or Chile. Now,
what why do you think if you have any thought
(26:18):
about this. Why do you think that there is an
unfortunate uh openness to Protestantism in certain areas. It does
it speak to any historic or contemporary weaknesses to the
Caelcolic Church.
Speaker 4 (26:35):
Mm hmm, Well, that's a very difficult question, actually, very
very difficult question.
Speaker 5 (26:45):
Of course.
Speaker 4 (26:47):
It is a highly highly complex phenomenon.
Speaker 5 (26:52):
Which in fact has manufacturers.
Speaker 4 (26:56):
In my opinion, there are mainly there.
Speaker 5 (27:00):
They are internal factors and not called a blood.
Speaker 4 (27:03):
I believe, although it is undeniable that and the influence
of American preachers of pentecostallsis Pentecostalism. I know Pentecostalist at
the beginning of the last century was very very powerful,
(27:24):
but I'm not sure of the answer. The Catholic Church also,
at least many Catholic Tilians. They also point out that
the influence of the decadence and the cave of the
church due to secularization and liberation theology, the dedication two
(27:47):
of many priests to artisan disputes in support of the
political left wing agenda, that would be a very strong
factor against the Catholic Church. To all these, we must,
of course, the crisis of social legitimacy of the church
(28:11):
cost and costs more recently unity by the abuses of
this the abuse of priests of Chris. But the question
is very difficult, and you can, I think you can
(28:32):
mention things, probably the influence of the creatures pretres beginning
of the last century, also the crisis after the Vatican Two,
and the influence the influence of Marxism within the Church,
and also the abuse crisis.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
Yeah, what would you say?
Speaker 7 (28:59):
The Church Church still culturals the agenda for the culture culture,
and maybe in some countries more than others.
Speaker 5 (29:12):
And sorry, I I heard on an e Coo ideas
you didn't understand.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Well that that the Catholic Church or Catholicism, uh sets
the cultural agenda much in cat Latin America, or perhaps
in some countries more than others. I don't.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
I don't know if that's an accurate assessment in the
sense of it sounds like from what you're saying about
Chile and rejecting the Constitution, that it was an affirmation
of kind of a Hispanic at least partly Hispanic identity,
which would be of course Catholic.
Speaker 4 (29:51):
Also, yeah, I am I think one can distinguish between
the diferent countries, of course, and the influence of the.
Speaker 5 (30:07):
Of the Catholic Church.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (30:10):
For example, in Colombia or in Ecuador, it's quite strong
at the moment, it's still strong and despite everything I've
mentioned before. In Chile, on the other hand, it is
(30:32):
it is in frankly, it is decaying. From at least
thirty years to now. Nowadays in Chile, we have like
a fifty percent of the population or something like that
is Catholic, so it's less than a half hour of
(30:54):
our country, and it used to be like ninety percent
of the nine just twenty years ago. So we are
passing through and clearly through a process of decay of
(31:15):
the of Catholicism and Catholic culture in Chile. Yeah, and
I think that probably probably it was also influenced by
by the economic reforms of the of Pinochet's dictatorship. It's
(31:39):
military government, military government, nearly realism, globalization that also was
very powerful in Chile. And but yes, one can distinguish
between different Latin American countries. I don't think we're all
the same in this in this particular issue.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
Yeah, what did you say the percentage of chile Ales
who were identify as Catholic, as you say it was
less than.
Speaker 4 (32:08):
Half less than half, yeah, yeah, it's it's very very sad. Yeah,
and I think that was due mostly to the abuse crisis. Yeah,
like in Ireland or in Boston in the States twenty
years ago. Yeah, and it has been a very very
(32:31):
very very sad crisis, very strong figures of Catholicism.
Speaker 5 (32:39):
Here in Chile. There was a priest which was.
Speaker 4 (32:47):
Like a reference for right wing people, for the elites,
and Fernando Garama, and he was an abuser and also
a reference to let wing people.
Speaker 6 (33:03):
Letter.
Speaker 4 (33:03):
So all the political spectrum so to speak, has been
affected by this crisis. And I think that, of course
has even Protestantism has has been profiting from this process that.
(33:28):
But also there's more atheism here in Chile, agnosticism since
and esoterism since everything happened, all these abuse crisis mm hmm.
Speaker 6 (33:50):
Do you think we're talking about? This is different things
which are affecting Latin America, the influences of Europe, the West,
the United States, secular ideas, Protestantism even I mean, in
this case we've been talking with the Catholic churches. Are
problems caught within the Catholic Church itself by Catholics not
(34:11):
living it how there ought to live? What is the
what is the your idea? How do we guard again?
How would you guard against those trends? Can you guard
against those trends anymore? Is it? Do you think it's
gone too far? Is it? If it hasn't gone too far?
What is the path of recovery?
Speaker 5 (34:32):
Well, I don't know. I haven't no answer for that.
Speaker 4 (34:38):
I think I just I just have hope because our
hobies and supernatural. But just that, I think, I know
we have to fight for the Kingdom of Christ here
in Latin America. I believe we can change things, but
(35:01):
I don't know how. I don't have a recipe for it.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
Well, your review, so West Stay is an effort in
this direction?
Speaker 4 (35:09):
No, yeah, yeah, we try, of course to change the culture,
spreading all this message, all these and narrative of a
Catholic culture and Catholic culture incarnate in our specific way,
which is Latin American, the Latin American way. And it's
(35:33):
an effort, of course, But I don't know if we
if we can actually change things.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Well, how much, how much? How much traction as it worked?
How much acceptance has your review obtained in Chile.
Speaker 5 (35:57):
A well. In Chile.
Speaker 4 (36:00):
We are at the moment we have more readers abroad
than in Chile, actually from all our region, from all
the countries of Latin America, many Mexicans, Spanish people, and
(36:21):
from Argentina.
Speaker 5 (36:22):
We have readers from the States. We have many readers, and.
Speaker 4 (36:28):
That's interesting because our magazine is also it's only in Spanish,
but we have many readers from the States and.
Speaker 5 (36:40):
It has been a.
Speaker 4 (36:42):
Generally speaking, I think it's it has been very positive
the reception of the of the magazine. And I believe
that because we speak in a positive way with beauty
and truth, truth and goodness back with beauty, and that's
(37:03):
a very very important characteristic of our magazine.
Speaker 5 (37:10):
Our essays are.
Speaker 4 (37:14):
We don't try to just say abortion is bad and
gay marriage is bad whatever. In spite of saying what's
wrong with the world, we try to say what is
good for men, for different nations, for Latin America, and
(37:38):
how beautiful it's God's message, the Catholic view of the
world of.
Speaker 5 (37:46):
The Gospel.
Speaker 4 (37:48):
We try to spread that message and try to spread
it as it has to.
Speaker 5 (37:55):
Be preached, which is with beauty, with.
Speaker 4 (38:00):
Beauty in the static, the illustrations the style of the essays.
Speaker 6 (38:11):
We are.
Speaker 5 (38:13):
Yeah, we we try to reach that aim permanently. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
Are there many other intellectual or spiritual efforts in either
Chile or other countries that you're aware of that are
trying to stem the tides of secularization and Protestantization. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (38:35):
Yes, in Chile, I think there are many other, many
other projects.
Speaker 5 (38:40):
Here in Chile we have something.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
A very.
Speaker 4 (38:51):
Very deep intellectual debate, I think, and many magazines and
social Christian and professors, but also it's just very a
(39:13):
very small group of people, very small group of people,
many professors, many institutions, but for the whole population of
Chile it's.
Speaker 5 (39:24):
It's very small, and the debate it's very high in
its level.
Speaker 4 (39:33):
Academically, a very very good level. But for the people
that doesn't exist. And in the rest of Latin America,
there are also many other figures, very important figures.
Speaker 5 (39:51):
There is a for example, Senor bon Badil, Mister.
Speaker 4 (39:59):
Bon Badil, like the Tolkien figure Talkien and Tom Bail.
Speaker 5 (40:10):
It's a it's a very interesting.
Speaker 4 (40:14):
Web page which is doing something similar to to Suu Weste.
But in Argentina also I know some Mexicans doing very
interesting things. Is Spanism Jose spreading Jose Basconcelos ideas for instance,
(40:34):
and also in Colombia, and there are very good organizations,
very good initiatid's, but I don't know if it's the same,
and it's frequent that they they try just to to
fight against evil in spite of spreading the truth. I
(41:01):
think we are we are trying.
Speaker 5 (41:03):
To reach that.
Speaker 4 (41:06):
Dutch audience with the spirit. Like I don't know how
how many people are trying to do it. Many? Maybe
Senor to my knowledge, would be the best example.
Speaker 5 (41:22):
Also in Spain.
Speaker 4 (41:23):
In Spain there are there are many authors and many
magazines and web pages which are doing something very similar.
Speaker 5 (41:34):
Would be a very very good example.
Speaker 6 (41:38):
M hmm.
Speaker 4 (41:39):
Yeah, Like I said, Vea also would be a good example,
but those are from Spain.
Speaker 5 (41:47):
M hm.
Speaker 2 (41:50):
Now your.
Speaker 3 (41:52):
Your organization, your you is connected with the organization. Uh
can you talk about what that organization is and what
it does?
Speaker 5 (42:05):
Yes, of course, yeah.
Speaker 4 (42:11):
Our organization Communaussia is dedicated to the promotion and defense
of human rights. But through the prism of the Catholic
social teachings, we have therefore o clear Catholic identity and
commitment without depending on the on the bishops or the priests.
(42:43):
We defend in particular what Benedict and the sixteenth called
the non negotiable goods. I think that would be the
translation bienn no negotiabilist maybe non negotiable values, non negotiable principles,
and life from the conception to natural death.
Speaker 5 (43:06):
The family founded in.
Speaker 4 (43:11):
Marriage men and women, marriage and eterosexual marriage, the right
of parents to educate their children, religious freedom, the place
of God in the public space, the Kingdom of Christ,
the social Kingdom of Christ.
Speaker 5 (43:30):
All these causes, however, were very reactive.
Speaker 4 (43:37):
We most of the time tried to respond to progressive ideologies,
progressive agenda to fight evil instead of promoting and spreading good.
Speaker 5 (43:50):
And in this context was.
Speaker 4 (43:55):
That trust was born like with the end of promoting
and this view positively and the Catholic culture incarnate in
our Spanish American, Spanish Latin American cultural contexts, and following
(44:16):
also the Catholic models of the world, Tolkien and Chesterton,
leon Blois of course, Saint Thomas Aquinas and particularly of
our region, and Nicolas Davila from Colombia and serve as
(44:37):
consultos in Mexico, Leonardo Castellani in Argentina, and Quan Chile
Gayla Mistral.
Speaker 5 (44:46):
Gonzo Real among others. Of course.
Speaker 2 (44:53):
Do they in Chile, is a Catholic religion still taught
in the public.
Speaker 5 (44:58):
Schools, Yeah, yeah, yes, but.
Speaker 4 (45:04):
It is at the moment it has been discussed. But yes,
with liberty, and you may choose Catholic religion or any
other religion or none of them. And also the Catholic
Church or the Catholic or the religious authority may choose
(45:31):
who can teach each religion. So the Catholic Church is
who choose, who determine who can be the teacher of
Catholic religion in public schools. And also Protestants have the
(45:53):
same the same power. And also Jews or whatever.
Speaker 3 (46:04):
The indigenous religions they they told you.
Speaker 5 (46:09):
Yes, alsome they they can have it.
Speaker 4 (46:12):
But here in till indigenous religion, it's not something very real.
I believe we have a few indigenous people that actually
believes in all that stuff, and it's very primitive indigenous
(46:34):
religion here in Italy. Mapuches are the the most numerous,
the most the biggest of indigenous peoples here intial and
they believe like in the spirits of the forests and things,
very very primitive. Yeah, many of them just prefer to
(46:58):
study would say language, and in the religion, they prefer
not to have any any subject, just to have recess
during that time, both parents and the kids.
Speaker 5 (47:18):
I think they prefer that.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
Yeah, it's always I've always wondered. I'm always wondered. But
it's an open question to me.
Speaker 3 (47:26):
It seems whether in the twenty first century anybody really
can be an indigenous pagan or or there's pretending to be.
I mean, I think in the United States there are
people who pretend to be neo pagans and it's just
a farce.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
And perhaps in Europe, I don't know about not America
or just what.
Speaker 4 (47:50):
I sorry to interrupt. I actually I've met someone who
was a pagan. Yeah, but I was with Mabuch, an
Indian guy, talking about it. We we were on a
mountain and from from the mountain we saw in the
(48:15):
valley someone doing a sacrifice or something like gadun. And
I started a conversation with that guy, also, what do
you believe in this? And he said to me, no,
those are the Mabutas who believe in the mountains and
(48:37):
they worshiped the mountains. But I I am not Mabuch.
I'm Christian Christian, and he was by race, I mean,
he was clearly Mabuch, but but he was considered himself
just a Christian and Christian Indian, Christian, but Christian. Yeah,
(49:04):
that's I think it's very common. They're mostly Protestants, but
but yeah, many of them are are Christians. Also, we
have very a very strong persecution against Christians here in
Chile because of that sort of things. The indigenous here
in Chile. It's very violent against Christians, against Catholics also,
(49:27):
of course, they we have many, many churches that have
been burnt out entirely and it's very frequent.
Speaker 8 (49:39):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (49:41):
Yeah, so even though it.
Speaker 3 (49:46):
Was rejected and referendum, they're still well even if they're.
Speaker 5 (49:55):
Yes, but there there.
Speaker 4 (49:56):
Are very there are and there's not.
Speaker 5 (50:02):
There are not a very a numerous people who are.
Speaker 4 (50:12):
Violent mambuchs, but there exist, and they have weapons and
they try to fight against the system and everything.
Speaker 2 (50:20):
But and.
Speaker 4 (50:24):
That's the thing I believe, they're they're very they're very violent,
but there are not many many people. Now, h most
Indians are are good people, most of them are Christians.
Most of them are just poor people living here.
Speaker 6 (50:50):
Yeah, Okay. The question I have is that you talk
about I think history in Mexico and maxt Revolution and
led to the Cristero movement in there at that time too.
One of the things they did address is part of
the cultural discussions was such things as the role of capitalism,
(51:16):
economic questions, basically how to respond to political purely political
and economic movements that we're coming from the United States.
So in terms of Catholic social teaching, it often took
upon itself a very economic and political cast Do you
(51:39):
I was, I was a clear from what you said
about the group you are alied with community do autie castesia.
Do you do you also address those questions and from
what perspective?
Speaker 5 (51:53):
Yes, yes, of course like economic issues, yes.
Speaker 4 (51:57):
We we are in ed by this and by the
Catholic social social teachings, and we also have have contribute
to the presentation of a statute project within the National
(52:19):
Congress of against the compound interest, against usury and sort
of usury. But it's not our like our core business.
We we are mainly focused against the the or in
(52:40):
favor of the non negotiable good values and life, family,
religious freedom.
Speaker 5 (52:50):
Mostly.
Speaker 4 (52:51):
Yeah, most I think Soudestate is different in Sudeste. We
we we this many many economic and political issues frequently, yes,
and also culture economic questions. Well, doctor Stork have is
(53:13):
at the moment one of our most relevant contributors in
the subject. Your way either way will be published today.
Oh against the reply against Michael Humphreys.
Speaker 3 (53:31):
Yeah, I was first became aware of for a wesday
when uh Art was contacted me asked me to write
an article about usury so I can testify that they
have a lot, they have.
Speaker 2 (53:45):
Very interesting things in their journal. Could you give up
the the website for your journal place for listeners?
Speaker 4 (53:54):
Yes, of course it's a branista suro.
Speaker 5 (54:04):
That would be in Spanish and r e V and.
Speaker 2 (54:12):
I got it.
Speaker 4 (54:14):
A s U r o E s t E dot
c l dot c L is from ti l A
t l a c L.
Speaker 2 (54:31):
So let me if I if I mal to repeat that.
So it's r e V I s t A s
U r o E s t E dot c L.
Speaker 5 (54:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (54:44):
So any of our southwest southwest in Spanish, right right?
Speaker 3 (54:50):
If any of our listeners the Spanish HIG would recommend
the journal UH as I mean a lot of very
interesting uh cultural economic, medical articles from a Catholic perspective
from the area that the world that unfortunately, uh, Northern
Americanos are woefully ignorant of it.
Speaker 2 (55:12):
When they do think about it, they usually think about
it in the wrong way.
Speaker 5 (55:20):
So thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (55:22):
Well, thank you.
Speaker 3 (55:23):
As a last thing, what would you say to the
Catholics in the United States about what we can do
to make the American presence or influence I should say
more benign and less imperialistic.
Speaker 2 (55:41):
These will be a Latin America.
Speaker 5 (55:45):
Ah well, that's also diffeople to question. I think that
maybe a.
Speaker 4 (55:54):
Maybe in American schools you can start by teaching more
geography out just a joke.
Speaker 5 (56:03):
You have like like that.
Speaker 4 (56:05):
And and I've I've met many Americans who don't know anything.
Speaker 5 (56:13):
About geography of the abroad countries. But I think that.
Speaker 4 (56:22):
Maybe the answer would be to recognize just the different
point of views of the reality and the political reality,
economic reality, and also different cultures like and not just
to to study them like traveling and stuff, but to let.
Speaker 5 (56:45):
Them be in their way, and.
Speaker 4 (56:50):
Which is of course like easy to say, but difficult
to practice in And I don't know how how do
you see it?
Speaker 5 (56:59):
With the the.
Speaker 4 (57:01):
New election of Donald Trump, also, but that would be
very interesting to discuss everything about Panama Channel and Mexico
and all that kind of stuff. I don't know what
do you think about it, but it would be a
(57:22):
very interesting discussion. Conservative people in America in the States
and Catholic people in the States have a very difficult
and a very difficult battle here because they have to
(57:42):
fight against the maybe most progressive leaders of the world
in abortion and those kind of things, but also have
to look at the other the other point, geo political
discussions some economic issues from the point of view of
(58:08):
Christ of the Catholic Church, and it's not easy to
to say.
Speaker 5 (58:15):
What can you do? I don't know. I don't have
an answer to that.
Speaker 6 (58:19):
M hmm.
Speaker 2 (58:24):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (58:25):
Thank you, because if it, do you have any final thoughts?
Speaker 6 (58:30):
Not really, I find it a very interesting discussion. I
mean in terms of I guess one of the temptations
right when you're dealing with what do you do in
a particular context, is the temptation is always to go
with with at least with two evils, and which is
not always invalid, I think, but nevertheless, it's it's a
(58:51):
dangerous thing, especially if you become a proponent, an avid
proponent of one of the evils, as if that evil
is a is a see or a cure for you know,
the cure for your ills. And I think that's what's
happened in the United States. Happened a lot of conservative people.
They looked something like Donald Trump as being more than
the lesser of two evils. One might debate that, but
(59:14):
my lesser two evils and rather becoming sort of the
the answer positive good rather than evil, to be tolerated.
Speaker 2 (59:24):
Very good.
Speaker 3 (59:25):
Well, one of the end, as we do with a
hail marriage to our lady, and do something yeh Mary,
full of grace to the lords, with the blessed women.
The blessed is the fruit of them Jesus. Listeners, thank
(59:46):
you so much. Thank you so much for joining us today,
and we really appreciated this.
Speaker 4 (59:52):
No, thank you, thank you very very much. Have great
to be here. I really enjoyed these conversations and also
nice to meet you, Christopher, and I hope maybe we
can repeat it, but with our podcast, which is.
Speaker 5 (01:00:12):
We will lunch it. I believe in March next month.
Speaker 4 (01:00:16):
Oh great, in Spanish or in English if you Panish.
Speaker 3 (01:00:23):
I can read Spanish, but I can't speak it all right, Well,
thank you all, hell, don't you. I'll be in touch
with a lot of you later.
Speaker 1 (01:00:36):
Hello, God's beloved. I'm Annabelle Mosley, author, professor of theology,
and host of then Sings My Soul and Destination Sainthood
on w c AT Radio. I invite you to listen
in and find inspiration along this sacred journey. We're traveling
together to make our lives a masterpiece and with God's grace,
(01:00:58):
become saints. Join me annabel Moseley for then Sings, My
Soul and Destination Sainthood on w c AT Radio. God
bless you. Remember you are never alone. God is always
with you.
Speaker 2 (01:01:18):
Thank you for listening to a production of w c
AT Radio. Please join us in our mission of evangelization,
and don't forget Love lifts up when knowledge takes flight.
You're listening to w c a T Radio, your home
for authentic Catholic programming.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Welcome to the Open Door.
Speaker 3 (00:08):
The host Thomas Stewart and co host Christopher Zender and
andrews Rakowski.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Andrew will be back with us again next month.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
He's now here today, and we'll start with our prayer. Come,
Holy Spirit, till the hearts of your faith part and
kindling them the fire of your love. Send forth your spirit,
and then shall be created, and you shall renew the
face of the earth. Let us pray, O God, who
has talked faith, the light of the Holy Spirit granted
(00:38):
in the same steer, maybe touly wise, we rejoiced, Christ,
our Lord and father son of the wise spirits.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Amen.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
Well today, our guests, mister Attorney Charney Constitutional Law venus
prr An editor of The Reviewed.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
We're very happy to have you with UH.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Thank you for her coming now on your website.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Spanish America. That America.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
It is not difficult to find her land on maps
from when they know, but to understand what we are,
what we are called to be in the of the
world is also easy.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Along with that.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
In the two thousand article, UH, interesting articles that I've
read too. Chilean professors, philosopher and anthropolishers up set for
four possible wultu self identities have advanced in Latin America,
the indigenous and the Hispanic identification with the rest of
the world in general, and the thesis of the Thai
(01:48):
cultural cultural or a fusion of indigit indigenous with Spanish
or Western identities. Could you comment at any of those
points for the point you're making about finding your place
in the world.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
Well, first of all, morning, good to be here, and
thank you very much for your kindness and the invitation. Yes,
of course, in my opinion, the position that holds a
view of the West does something unitary, has many.
Speaker 5 (02:26):
Blind spots, so to speak.
Speaker 4 (02:28):
In fact, there is no single Western culture and usually
alluded in these terms to the geopolitical poll of the
nature liberalism, capitalism, Anglo Saxon culture, Protestantism, et cetera. But
if we look closely at our Latin American context or history,
(02:52):
we will see that those kind of consensus are enter
it here in our culture only thirty or maybe forty
years ago, by the way of the globalization. The visions
(03:13):
of Hispanic and Indigenous identities, on the other hand, have
some points of truth I believe, because clearly there is
something indigenous in indigenous in US Indian, I mean, I
don't know how to say it, but indigenous native in US.
(03:35):
But there is also something Hispanic in US. So the
answer I think would be the mestisake.
Speaker 5 (03:44):
Yeah, the crossblood Mestisaki.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
And there is a philosophical foundation for this answer, I believe,
explained by our Leian philosopher Padreros Baldolina Tilean priests, which
is the elemorphic structure mattern form, Ramiro and mice to
(04:12):
also set it before in.
Speaker 5 (04:15):
Spain, and.
Speaker 4 (04:22):
Spain provided the spirit so to speak, language, culture, religion, education, philosophy,
et cetera, and the indigenous peoples provided the matter so
to speak, which is also very important. Blood, soil and
(04:43):
both are necessary to shape our identity. One one influences
the other. The spirit exists incarnate, giving a new accent
to language or different emphasis in religion, different styles news,
(05:04):
styles in art, and this is how is Pan American
or Latin American Baroque was formed.
Speaker 5 (05:15):
This is clearly seen if you see if you see
religious art.
Speaker 4 (05:20):
For example, for instance, the images of the Virgin Mary
with her cloaks here in Latin America, in Indian cultures
and adopted a figure that imitates the mountains, which are
very important in Andian cultures. And you can you can
(05:46):
mention many other examples. But I think that's the answer. Therefore, mestisaki,
but a messisaki, which is a cultural not just like
it's it's not only the blood that that matters. It's
everything the spirit and leads incarnate. And that's the answer
(06:09):
I believe.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
M hmm.
Speaker 6 (06:16):
I was curious when you talk about mesasa, I know
the whole state the english Man, can you he's there
a world.
Speaker 5 (06:29):
I think, so okay, yes.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
I'm up. I assume that was unwarned assumption.
Speaker 5 (06:38):
It's like mixed blood, but it's also cultural. Yeah, yeah,
I know that.
Speaker 6 (06:43):
But my question would be there are different degrees of it, right,
and it sounds that in some parts a lot of them.
In Latin America it seems to be not at all.
I mean you some I think of some tribes, like
in northern Mexico mm, pretty much entirely indigenous. So we're
talking about study which is various different degrees, right, and
(07:05):
so is there I mean, so how do you accommodate
all those in those different forms of mixed mixedness, if
you want to call it that. And in this in
this vision of Latin America.
Speaker 5 (07:22):
Well, in my opinion this is also.
Speaker 4 (07:28):
And just an opinion, but I believe that blood is
it's not the race, it's it's not what's important here.
So you may have, for example, an Argentinian which is
quite white, so to speak, like.
Speaker 5 (07:50):
Blonde, and and.
Speaker 4 (07:53):
It's like European looking, but culturally and he is absolutely Spanish,
absolutely Catholic, absolutely.
Speaker 5 (08:06):
Latin American.
Speaker 4 (08:08):
If you if you look at him, if you look
at their their poetry, their art, their philosophy, it's absolutely American.
But Leonardo Castellani, for instance, it's creato, it's Jesuit. He
(08:29):
wrote many many books, literature, poetry, also philosophy, and you
you can.
Speaker 5 (08:36):
See very seem it's very acheen two.
Speaker 4 (08:42):
Chilean philosophers and also Mexican philosophers, and it's like a
way of thinking culture which is different. But also you
see he he looks like a European more than any
Bolivian or Peruvian probably, but the culture has many similitudes and.
Speaker 5 (09:07):
It's very similar, so to speak.
Speaker 4 (09:10):
And so of course you may have degrees but I
think that there's a like a a core identity which is.
Speaker 5 (09:21):
Mostly Hispanic.
Speaker 4 (09:23):
Even if there there are Italian influences in Argentina or
also English influences in Chile or wh there's also that
would be different in my opinion, from recent influences from
(09:45):
the States in Mexico or maybe in Puerto Rico and
regaton culture or that's that's clearly not the same. It's
something different, something new. But yeah, we can we can't
say there are degrees, of course.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
Well is the is the uh? You know, it seems
to me that that the culture is much more important
than any kind of ethnicity or blood or anything. And
even Europe, after all, was not uniformal uniform and it's
some ethnicity at the time of the day of the
fall of the Roman Empire.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
So it seems to me.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
When in my little bit of reading, which has mostly
been in Mexican material, that the indigenous is a little
bit artificial in the sense that they're they're mad at
the United States, often with good reason, uh, And one
of the ways they can assert themselves is to come
up with a pretended indigenous identity when in fact, culturally
(10:53):
they're Western just as much as we are, perhaps even
more because I don't like the idea that the United
States somehow sets the tone for what should be Western
culture and find out an way.
Speaker 4 (11:09):
Yeah yeah, maybe maybe not what it's usually understood that
like okay, what I said for like nature, liberalism, whatever. Yeah,
but of course there's also a common identity, a common
(11:34):
root between the States and Europe.
Speaker 5 (11:38):
Of course you're not Africa or Asia.
Speaker 4 (11:42):
But but yes, Europe, as you have you said, it's
also very very rich of cultures, many different cultures, even Spain.
Within Spain, you can distinguish many many colors and gad
(12:02):
Diego's Bass Cabalanis and there also have they also have
many things in common which are different from French people.
And I think you can say something similar in Latin America.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Yeah, I mean the.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
In in in the United States. I'm sure you're painfully aware. Uh,
we tend to judge every culture in terms of this
level of wealth and what what John Bulls like you
called the era.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
Of economism, and so.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
We we put ourselves at the top of the heap
just because we claim to be more wealthy.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
And that's some culture is kind of neglected here.
Speaker 4 (12:48):
Well, that's your your thesis in the West in your
in your essay of.
Speaker 5 (12:54):
The Kingdom of Quantity. Yes, yes, yeah, yeah, it was
very good. I say, I must say, mm hmm, Christ.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
What you want to ask?
Speaker 6 (13:12):
Yeah, you know. I mean, you speak on your website
of the various ideas and trends which are affecting the
entire world, but especially the West. Amongst these environmentalism, feminism, indigenism,
esoteric currents, et cetera. Given them, both Europe and North
America are affected by these ideas. How do they affect
Latin America in any particular ways.
Speaker 5 (13:34):
Yes, indeed yes.
Speaker 7 (13:36):
Uh.
Speaker 4 (13:38):
Today Latin America or Ti Lane particular, is being strongly
influenced by the work ideology and the so called critical
theory post Marxism.
Speaker 5 (13:54):
Uh, we must not forget that.
Speaker 4 (13:56):
And the greatest and maybe greatest I don't know current
references figures of practical post Marxism are from our cultural environment.
Ernesto la Glow, for instance, and a Gemonian socialist strategy.
He was from Argentina, Garcia in Ea is from Bolivia
(14:19):
in u Grahoni Spanish. And yeah, we see it also
in the rulings of the Inter American Court of Human
Rights also we well, sou State is a project from
the NDO Communia. We maybe we can talk about it later,
(14:40):
and it's an end o, a human rights and geo.
We we work this kind of things, discussions and we
see the growing acceptance of gender ideology, proportion legislation in
many kind of trees. Indigenousm has penetrated also with very
(15:05):
strongly in Equador or Colombia, Olivia, in Chile, I think,
and it also had penetrated, but to a certain extent,
although in my opinion it has slowed.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Down or.
Speaker 4 (15:25):
During the president Borriage administration.
Speaker 5 (15:31):
Are our president. But well, whatever.
Speaker 8 (15:35):
I h, I think or maybe I don't think, I
feel that I feel because I'm not sure of the
not sure of the caust, but.
Speaker 4 (15:49):
I feel that we as Latin American countries are like
guinea pigs, like of the progressive academy world from the
discourse of human rights, a twisted version of human rights.
Actually they it's like they're experimenting honors as undeveloped countries,
(16:16):
even in countries with strong Catholic roots like Colombia for instance,
and even against people's wills and people's will. Sorry, they
they managed to impose the progressive policies rises and liberal
(16:37):
dogmas through for example, constitutional courts or administrative legislation rules.
And this in Colombia has been absolutely clear, also in
in Ecuador for instance. But yeah, INTI there's also a
(17:01):
very strong influence of the woke ideology and all of
these things. Environmentalism, I think that is not quite strong interpoint,
but indigenism, feminism, gender ideology and those who are very strong.
Speaker 5 (17:21):
And all into.
Speaker 6 (17:24):
You mentioned environmentalism and amongst each other isms. It's unclear
to me that environmentalism fits into what we would call
the world culture. I mean, at least in some understanding
of environmentalism, we're talking about the care of God's creation, right,
How is that? Why is that? Why do you include
(17:46):
that that term amongst these others.
Speaker 4 (17:52):
Well, of course I believe that we as Catholic and
also as human beings have a uh a duty to
take care of God's creation, yes, of course, and to
new generations and everything in the ind I think it's
(18:14):
in that sense very like perspicuous and I'm very accurate.
Speaker 5 (18:23):
But the thing is.
Speaker 4 (18:26):
When when we see, for instance, that people begin not
to having not having children in order to have just
a cat or a dog and even they they call
(18:50):
their dogs children when in Spanish us with the expression perichhus.
Speaker 5 (18:58):
Like that would mean in like m doctrine or you know,
dogs and children.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
Like like there their sons, they see them as the
of their children. And that's that's decadence, that that subversion
of things. I what what I meant environmentalism was that
radical environmentalism against naturalism, against against kids, against human beings,
(19:36):
and like a distortion of something which was true, like Chesterton.
Speaker 5 (19:43):
Chesterton said that.
Speaker 4 (19:48):
The I don't know how I was in English like
madness is like a true a truth which has un
crazy something like that, and lies are okay errors or
our truth and became crazy something like that.
Speaker 5 (20:13):
Yeah, yeah, so it's not.
Speaker 6 (20:16):
Yeah, focusing on the actual might be considered sound environmentalism,
consider you're talking about distortions of it.
Speaker 5 (20:26):
Where yeah, yeah, you may, you may say that way.
Of course.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
I hope I was correct, but I assumed that the word.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
Was a rough equivalent to what we would call environmentalism.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
In the English.
Speaker 4 (20:44):
Yes, yes, yes, I I think it's it's good environmentalism.
Speaker 5 (20:49):
I'm also I think.
Speaker 4 (20:52):
Maybe to say and acota he's mobile fundo would be
more accurate.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
Deep ecology.
Speaker 4 (21:05):
We use it to but but we say like sound
environmentalism would be in Spanish like deep environmentalism.
Speaker 6 (21:17):
Absolutely, I said one more question from me, and it's
in regard to you talk about how we the western
particular the United States looks upon Latin America as a
kind of experimental station and so which include which implies
(21:39):
right that they look upon Latin Americans as inferior and
subjects of experiments. But I think back, like I've I've
read a lot of Mexican history. I don't really know
much about South America or Mexican history, and it seems
goes back very far. This goes back to the early
at least the early nineteenth century with the First Mexican Revolution.
(22:01):
And but you had it all all along. You have
Latin Americans who are Mexicans who seem to internalize that
the vision of themselves that they were inferior, they had
to they had to rise up to the challenge of
the great North American juggernaut. I think of that. But
then there's been reaction too. I think of that poem
(22:25):
Roosevelt by Raven d'arrio. Yeah, and so you have that reaction,
But to what degree have people in Latin America internalized
or come to agree with the assessment made made about
them by, say in the United States or Western Europe.
Speaker 5 (22:48):
Mm hmm, well, yes, I think that.
Speaker 4 (22:55):
Some political sectors, especially within the right wing liberals. Yeah,
right wing liberals. That's uh, that's a common statement. Yes,
and many many liberals here in Chili say things like that.
Speaker 5 (23:14):
But oh, we would.
Speaker 4 (23:17):
Be better if the brigs and have come here, have
have come here in spite of the Spanish. But I
don't know how how common it would and this is
to all our population. If it's difficult to say that,
(23:42):
I don't know. I don't really know. I think that
many and many people here in in Till at least,
and I believe that they see us as inferiors. But
and and of course they don't like it. But I
(24:02):
don't think they actually are in fear. I don't think
they believe it, at least, not not in Till.
Speaker 5 (24:12):
But well, it's it's difficult to answer.
Speaker 4 (24:17):
I don't have study sticks or the numbers.
Speaker 5 (24:23):
Your impression, your impression speaking, just an impression.
Speaker 4 (24:26):
Yeah, I think Chileian people it's very proud of of
their identity.
Speaker 5 (24:32):
Yeah, and.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
That's why indigenism here has been, had been has been
strongly rejected in our constitutional referendum here in till I
don't know if you if you.
Speaker 5 (24:51):
Know about it, we have we are.
Speaker 4 (24:55):
We We had two constitutional referendums here. One of those
contos constitutional referendums was to establish a new Chilean constitution,
which was very indigenous, and the people rejected with a
strong majority. So I think one of the one of
(25:18):
the reasons was precisely that we are.
Speaker 5 (25:22):
We are very proud of our Mestisa identity in the Anstica.
I don't know how to.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Sell one of one of the in the United States.
One of the one of the chief elements of our
cultural imperialism that we are concerned about, especially as Boss Catholics,
is the inroads of Protestantism in the Latin America. Sorry,
is the the the increase in nomber of Protestants in
(25:57):
Latin America. And I know that some countries, like some
of the Central American countries on door say or one
of all I, have hugely increased the number of Protestants,
and probably not so much in as Argentina or Chile. Now,
what why do you think if you have any thought
(26:18):
about this. Why do you think that there is an
unfortunate uh openness to Protestantism in certain areas. It does
it speak to any historic or contemporary weaknesses to the
Caelcolic Church.
Speaker 4 (26:35):
Mm hmm, Well, that's a very difficult question, actually, very
very difficult question.
Speaker 5 (26:45):
Of course.
Speaker 4 (26:47):
It is a highly highly complex phenomenon.
Speaker 5 (26:52):
Which in fact has manufacturers.
Speaker 4 (26:56):
In my opinion, there are mainly there.
Speaker 5 (27:00):
They are internal factors and not called a blood.
Speaker 4 (27:03):
I believe, although it is undeniable that and the influence
of American preachers of pentecostallsis Pentecostalism. I know Pentecostalist at
the beginning of the last century was very very powerful,
(27:24):
but I'm not sure of the answer. The Catholic Church also,
at least many Catholic Tilians. They also point out that
the influence of the decadence and the cave of the
church due to secularization and liberation theology, the dedication two
(27:47):
of many priests to artisan disputes in support of the
political left wing agenda, that would be a very strong
factor against the Catholic Church. To all these, we must,
of course, the crisis of social legitimacy of the church
(28:11):
cost and costs more recently unity by the abuses of
this the abuse of priests of Chris. But the question
is very difficult, and you can, I think you can
(28:32):
mention things, probably the influence of the creatures pretres beginning
of the last century, also the crisis after the Vatican Two,
and the influence the influence of Marxism within the Church,
and also the abuse crisis.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
Yeah, what would you say?
Speaker 7 (28:59):
The Church Church still culturals the agenda for the culture culture,
and maybe in some countries more than others.
Speaker 5 (29:12):
And sorry, I I heard on an e Coo ideas
you didn't understand.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Well that that the Catholic Church or Catholicism, uh sets
the cultural agenda much in cat Latin America, or perhaps
in some countries more than others. I don't.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
I don't know if that's an accurate assessment in the
sense of it sounds like from what you're saying about
Chile and rejecting the Constitution, that it was an affirmation
of kind of a Hispanic at least partly Hispanic identity,
which would be of course Catholic.
Speaker 4 (29:51):
Also, yeah, I am I think one can distinguish between
the diferent countries, of course, and the influence of the.
Speaker 5 (30:07):
Of the Catholic Church.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (30:10):
For example, in Colombia or in Ecuador, it's quite strong
at the moment, it's still strong and despite everything I've
mentioned before. In Chile, on the other hand, it is
(30:32):
it is in frankly, it is decaying. From at least
thirty years to now. Nowadays in Chile, we have like
a fifty percent of the population or something like that
is Catholic, so it's less than a half hour of
(30:54):
our country, and it used to be like ninety percent
of the nine just twenty years ago. So we are
passing through and clearly through a process of decay of
(31:15):
the of Catholicism and Catholic culture in Chile. Yeah, and
I think that probably probably it was also influenced by
by the economic reforms of the of Pinochet's dictatorship. It's
(31:39):
military government, military government, nearly realism, globalization that also was
very powerful in Chile. And but yes, one can distinguish
between different Latin American countries. I don't think we're all
the same in this in this particular issue.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
Yeah, what did you say the percentage of chile Ales
who were identify as Catholic, as you say it was
less than.
Speaker 4 (32:08):
Half less than half, yeah, yeah, it's it's very very sad. Yeah,
and I think that was due mostly to the abuse crisis. Yeah,
like in Ireland or in Boston in the States twenty
years ago. Yeah, and it has been a very very
(32:31):
very very sad crisis, very strong figures of Catholicism.
Speaker 5 (32:39):
Here in Chile. There was a priest which was.
Speaker 4 (32:47):
Like a reference for right wing people, for the elites,
and Fernando Garama, and he was an abuser and also
a reference to let wing people.
Speaker 6 (33:03):
Letter.
Speaker 4 (33:03):
So all the political spectrum so to speak, has been
affected by this crisis. And I think that, of course
has even Protestantism has has been profiting from this process that.
(33:28):
But also there's more atheism here in Chile, agnosticism since
and esoterism since everything happened, all these abuse crisis mm hmm.
Speaker 6 (33:50):
Do you think we're talking about? This is different things
which are affecting Latin America, the influences of Europe, the West,
the United States, secular ideas, Protestantism even I mean, in
this case we've been talking with the Catholic churches. Are
problems caught within the Catholic Church itself by Catholics not
(34:11):
living it how there ought to live? What is the
what is the your idea? How do we guard again?
How would you guard against those trends? Can you guard
against those trends anymore? Is it? Do you think it's
gone too far? Is it? If it hasn't gone too far?
What is the path of recovery?
Speaker 5 (34:32):
Well, I don't know. I haven't no answer for that.
Speaker 4 (34:38):
I think I just I just have hope because our
hobies and supernatural. But just that, I think, I know
we have to fight for the Kingdom of Christ here
in Latin America. I believe we can change things, but
(35:01):
I don't know how. I don't have a recipe for it.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
Well, your review, so West Stay is an effort in
this direction?
Speaker 4 (35:09):
No, yeah, yeah, we try, of course to change the culture,
spreading all this message, all these and narrative of a
Catholic culture and Catholic culture incarnate in our specific way,
which is Latin American, the Latin American way. And it's
(35:33):
an effort, of course, But I don't know if we
if we can actually change things.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Well, how much, how much? How much traction as it worked?
How much acceptance has your review obtained in Chile.
Speaker 5 (35:57):
A well. In Chile.
Speaker 4 (36:00):
We are at the moment we have more readers abroad
than in Chile, actually from all our region, from all
the countries of Latin America, many Mexicans, Spanish people, and
(36:21):
from Argentina.
Speaker 5 (36:22):
We have readers from the States. We have many readers, and.
Speaker 4 (36:28):
That's interesting because our magazine is also it's only in Spanish,
but we have many readers from the States and.
Speaker 5 (36:40):
It has been a.
Speaker 4 (36:42):
Generally speaking, I think it's it has been very positive
the reception of the of the magazine. And I believe
that because we speak in a positive way with beauty
and truth, truth and goodness back with beauty, and that's
(37:03):
a very very important characteristic of our magazine.
Speaker 5 (37:10):
Our essays are.
Speaker 4 (37:14):
We don't try to just say abortion is bad and
gay marriage is bad whatever. In spite of saying what's
wrong with the world, we try to say what is
good for men, for different nations, for Latin America, and
(37:38):
how beautiful it's God's message, the Catholic view of the
world of.
Speaker 5 (37:46):
The Gospel.
Speaker 4 (37:48):
We try to spread that message and try to spread
it as it has to.
Speaker 5 (37:55):
Be preached, which is with beauty, with.
Speaker 4 (38:00):
Beauty in the static, the illustrations the style of the essays.
Speaker 6 (38:11):
We are.
Speaker 5 (38:13):
Yeah, we we try to reach that aim permanently. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
Are there many other intellectual or spiritual efforts in either
Chile or other countries that you're aware of that are
trying to stem the tides of secularization and Protestantization. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (38:35):
Yes, in Chile, I think there are many other, many
other projects.
Speaker 5 (38:40):
Here in Chile we have something.
Speaker 2 (38:46):
A very.
Speaker 4 (38:51):
Very deep intellectual debate, I think, and many magazines and
social Christian and professors, but also it's just very a
(39:13):
very small group of people, very small group of people,
many professors, many institutions, but for the whole population of
Chile it's.
Speaker 5 (39:24):
It's very small, and the debate it's very high in
its level.
Speaker 4 (39:33):
Academically, a very very good level. But for the people
that doesn't exist. And in the rest of Latin America,
there are also many other figures, very important figures.
Speaker 5 (39:51):
There is a for example, Senor bon Badil, Mister.
Speaker 4 (39:59):
Bon Badil, like the Tolkien figure Talkien and Tom Bail.
Speaker 5 (40:10):
It's a it's a very interesting.
Speaker 4 (40:14):
Web page which is doing something similar to to Suu Weste.
But in Argentina also I know some Mexicans doing very
interesting things. Is Spanism Jose spreading Jose Basconcelos ideas for instance,
(40:34):
and also in Colombia, and there are very good organizations,
very good initiatid's, but I don't know if it's the same,
and it's frequent that they they try just to to
fight against evil in spite of spreading the truth. I
(41:01):
think we are we are trying.
Speaker 5 (41:03):
To reach that.
Speaker 4 (41:06):
Dutch audience with the spirit. Like I don't know how
how many people are trying to do it. Many? Maybe
Senor to my knowledge, would be the best example.
Speaker 5 (41:22):
Also in Spain.
Speaker 4 (41:23):
In Spain there are there are many authors and many
magazines and web pages which are doing something very similar.
Speaker 5 (41:34):
Would be a very very good example.
Speaker 6 (41:38):
M hmm.
Speaker 4 (41:39):
Yeah, Like I said, Vea also would be a good example,
but those are from Spain.
Speaker 5 (41:47):
M hm.
Speaker 2 (41:50):
Now your.
Speaker 3 (41:52):
Your organization, your you is connected with the organization. Uh
can you talk about what that organization is and what
it does?
Speaker 5 (42:05):
Yes, of course, yeah.
Speaker 4 (42:11):
Our organization Communaussia is dedicated to the promotion and defense
of human rights. But through the prism of the Catholic
social teachings, we have therefore o clear Catholic identity and
commitment without depending on the on the bishops or the priests.
(42:43):
We defend in particular what Benedict and the sixteenth called
the non negotiable goods. I think that would be the
translation bienn no negotiabilist maybe non negotiable values, non negotiable principles,
and life from the conception to natural death.
Speaker 5 (43:06):
The family founded in.
Speaker 4 (43:11):
Marriage men and women, marriage and eterosexual marriage, the right
of parents to educate their children, religious freedom, the place
of God in the public space, the Kingdom of Christ,
the social Kingdom of Christ.
Speaker 5 (43:30):
All these causes, however, were very reactive.
Speaker 4 (43:37):
We most of the time tried to respond to progressive ideologies,
progressive agenda to fight evil instead of promoting and spreading good.
Speaker 5 (43:50):
And in this context was.
Speaker 4 (43:55):
That trust was born like with the end of promoting
and this view positively and the Catholic culture incarnate in
our Spanish American, Spanish Latin American cultural contexts, and following
(44:16):
also the Catholic models of the world, Tolkien and Chesterton,
leon Blois of course, Saint Thomas Aquinas and particularly of
our region, and Nicolas Davila from Colombia and serve as
(44:37):
consultos in Mexico, Leonardo Castellani in Argentina, and Quan Chile
Gayla Mistral.
Speaker 5 (44:46):
Gonzo Real among others. Of course.
Speaker 2 (44:53):
Do they in Chile, is a Catholic religion still taught
in the public.
Speaker 5 (44:58):
Schools, Yeah, yeah, yes, but.
Speaker 4 (45:04):
It is at the moment it has been discussed. But yes,
with liberty, and you may choose Catholic religion or any
other religion or none of them. And also the Catholic
Church or the Catholic or the religious authority may choose
(45:31):
who can teach each religion. So the Catholic Church is
who choose, who determine who can be the teacher of
Catholic religion in public schools. And also Protestants have the
(45:53):
same the same power. And also Jews or whatever.
Speaker 3 (46:04):
The indigenous religions they they told you.
Speaker 5 (46:09):
Yes, alsome they they can have it.
Speaker 4 (46:12):
But here in till indigenous religion, it's not something very real.
I believe we have a few indigenous people that actually
believes in all that stuff, and it's very primitive indigenous
(46:34):
religion here in Italy. Mapuches are the the most numerous,
the most the biggest of indigenous peoples here intial and
they believe like in the spirits of the forests and things,
very very primitive. Yeah, many of them just prefer to
(46:58):
study would say language, and in the religion, they prefer
not to have any any subject, just to have recess
during that time, both parents and the kids.
Speaker 5 (47:18):
I think they prefer that.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
Yeah, it's always I've always wondered. I'm always wondered. But
it's an open question to me.
Speaker 3 (47:26):
It seems whether in the twenty first century anybody really
can be an indigenous pagan or or there's pretending to be.
I mean, I think in the United States there are
people who pretend to be neo pagans and it's just
a farce.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
And perhaps in Europe, I don't know about not America
or just what.
Speaker 4 (47:50):
I sorry to interrupt. I actually I've met someone who
was a pagan. Yeah, but I was with Mabuch, an
Indian guy, talking about it. We we were on a
mountain and from from the mountain we saw in the
(48:15):
valley someone doing a sacrifice or something like gadun. And
I started a conversation with that guy, also, what do
you believe in this? And he said to me, no,
those are the Mabutas who believe in the mountains and
(48:37):
they worshiped the mountains. But I I am not Mabuch.
I'm Christian Christian, and he was by race, I mean,
he was clearly Mabuch, but but he was considered himself
just a Christian and Christian Indian, Christian, but Christian. Yeah,
(49:04):
that's I think it's very common. They're mostly Protestants, but
but yeah, many of them are are Christians. Also, we
have very a very strong persecution against Christians here in
Chile because of that sort of things. The indigenous here
in Chile. It's very violent against Christians, against Catholics also,
(49:27):
of course, they we have many, many churches that have
been burnt out entirely and it's very frequent.
Speaker 8 (49:39):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (49:41):
Yeah, so even though it.
Speaker 3 (49:46):
Was rejected and referendum, they're still well even if they're.
Speaker 5 (49:55):
Yes, but there there.
Speaker 4 (49:56):
Are very there are and there's not.
Speaker 5 (50:02):
There are not a very a numerous people who are.
Speaker 4 (50:12):
Violent mambuchs, but there exist, and they have weapons and
they try to fight against the system and everything.
Speaker 2 (50:20):
But and.
Speaker 4 (50:24):
That's the thing I believe, they're they're very they're very violent,
but there are not many many people. Now, h most
Indians are are good people, most of them are Christians.
Most of them are just poor people living here.
Speaker 6 (50:50):
Yeah, Okay. The question I have is that you talk
about I think history in Mexico and maxt Revolution and
led to the Cristero movement in there at that time too.
One of the things they did address is part of
the cultural discussions was such things as the role of capitalism,
(51:16):
economic questions, basically how to respond to political purely political
and economic movements that we're coming from the United States.
So in terms of Catholic social teaching, it often took
upon itself a very economic and political cast Do you
(51:39):
I was, I was a clear from what you said
about the group you are alied with community do autie castesia.
Do you do you also address those questions and from
what perspective?
Speaker 5 (51:53):
Yes, yes, of course like economic issues, yes.
Speaker 4 (51:57):
We we are in ed by this and by the
Catholic social social teachings, and we also have have contribute
to the presentation of a statute project within the National
(52:19):
Congress of against the compound interest, against usury and sort
of usury. But it's not our like our core business.
We we are mainly focused against the the or in
(52:40):
favor of the non negotiable good values and life, family,
religious freedom.
Speaker 5 (52:50):
Mostly.
Speaker 4 (52:51):
Yeah, most I think Soudestate is different in Sudeste. We
we we this many many economic and political issues frequently, yes,
and also culture economic questions. Well, doctor Stork have is
(53:13):
at the moment one of our most relevant contributors in
the subject. Your way either way will be published today.
Oh against the reply against Michael Humphreys.
Speaker 3 (53:31):
Yeah, I was first became aware of for a wesday
when uh Art was contacted me asked me to write
an article about usury so I can testify that they
have a lot, they have.
Speaker 2 (53:45):
Very interesting things in their journal. Could you give up
the the website for your journal place for listeners?
Speaker 4 (53:54):
Yes, of course it's a branista suro.
Speaker 5 (54:04):
That would be in Spanish and r e V and.
Speaker 2 (54:12):
I got it.
Speaker 4 (54:14):
A s U r o E s t E dot
c l dot c L is from ti l A
t l a c L.
Speaker 2 (54:31):
So let me if I if I mal to repeat that.
So it's r e V I s t A s
U r o E s t E dot c L.
Speaker 5 (54:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (54:44):
So any of our southwest southwest in Spanish, right right?
Speaker 3 (54:50):
If any of our listeners the Spanish HIG would recommend
the journal UH as I mean a lot of very
interesting uh cultural economic, medical articles from a Catholic perspective
from the area that the world that unfortunately, uh, Northern
Americanos are woefully ignorant of it.
Speaker 2 (55:12):
When they do think about it, they usually think about
it in the wrong way.
Speaker 5 (55:20):
So thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (55:22):
Well, thank you.
Speaker 3 (55:23):
As a last thing, what would you say to the
Catholics in the United States about what we can do
to make the American presence or influence I should say
more benign and less imperialistic.
Speaker 2 (55:41):
These will be a Latin America.
Speaker 5 (55:45):
Ah well, that's also diffeople to question. I think that
maybe a.
Speaker 4 (55:54):
Maybe in American schools you can start by teaching more
geography out just a joke.
Speaker 5 (56:03):
You have like like that.
Speaker 4 (56:05):
And and I've I've met many Americans who don't know anything.
Speaker 5 (56:13):
About geography of the abroad countries. But I think that.
Speaker 4 (56:22):
Maybe the answer would be to recognize just the different
point of views of the reality and the political reality,
economic reality, and also different cultures like and not just
to to study them like traveling and stuff, but to let.
Speaker 5 (56:45):
Them be in their way, and.
Speaker 4 (56:50):
Which is of course like easy to say, but difficult
to practice in And I don't know how how do
you see it?
Speaker 5 (56:59):
With the the.
Speaker 4 (57:01):
New election of Donald Trump, also, but that would be
very interesting to discuss everything about Panama Channel and Mexico
and all that kind of stuff. I don't know what
do you think about it, but it would be a
(57:22):
very interesting discussion. Conservative people in America in the States
and Catholic people in the States have a very difficult
and a very difficult battle here because they have to
(57:42):
fight against the maybe most progressive leaders of the world
in abortion and those kind of things, but also have
to look at the other the other point, geo political
discussions some economic issues from the point of view of
(58:08):
Christ of the Catholic Church, and it's not easy to
to say.
Speaker 5 (58:15):
What can you do? I don't know. I don't have
an answer to that.
Speaker 6 (58:19):
M hmm.
Speaker 2 (58:24):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (58:25):
Thank you, because if it, do you have any final thoughts?
Speaker 6 (58:30):
Not really, I find it a very interesting discussion. I
mean in terms of I guess one of the temptations
right when you're dealing with what do you do in
a particular context, is the temptation is always to go
with with at least with two evils, and which is
not always invalid, I think, but nevertheless, it's it's a
(58:51):
dangerous thing, especially if you become a proponent, an avid
proponent of one of the evils, as if that evil
is a is a see or a cure for you know,
the cure for your ills. And I think that's what's
happened in the United States. Happened a lot of conservative people.
They looked something like Donald Trump as being more than
the lesser of two evils. One might debate that, but
(59:14):
my lesser two evils and rather becoming sort of the
the answer positive good rather than evil, to be tolerated.
Speaker 2 (59:24):
Very good.
Speaker 3 (59:25):
Well, one of the end, as we do with a
hail marriage to our lady, and do something yeh Mary,
full of grace to the lords, with the blessed women.
The blessed is the fruit of them Jesus. Listeners, thank
(59:46):
you so much. Thank you so much for joining us today,
and we really appreciated this.
Speaker 4 (59:52):
No, thank you, thank you very very much. Have great
to be here. I really enjoyed these conversations and also
nice to meet you, Christopher, and I hope maybe we
can repeat it, but with our podcast, which is.
Speaker 5 (01:00:12):
We will lunch it. I believe in March next month.
Speaker 4 (01:00:16):
Oh great, in Spanish or in English if you Panish.
Speaker 3 (01:00:23):
I can read Spanish, but I can't speak it all right, Well,
thank you all, hell, don't you. I'll be in touch
with a lot of you later.
Speaker 1 (01:00:36):
Hello, God's beloved. I'm Annabelle Mosley, author, professor of theology,
and host of then Sings My Soul and Destination Sainthood
on w c AT Radio. I invite you to listen
in and find inspiration along this sacred journey. We're traveling
together to make our lives a masterpiece and with God's grace,
(01:00:58):
become saints. Join me annabel Moseley for then Sings, My
Soul and Destination Sainthood on w c AT Radio. God
bless you. Remember you are never alone. God is always
with you.
Speaker 2 (01:01:18):
Thank you for listening to a production of w c
AT Radio. Please join us in our mission of evangelization,
and don't forget Love lifts up when knowledge takes flight.
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