Episode 300: On Religion in the United States (May 14, 2025)

In this episode of The Open Door, panelists Thomas Storck, Andrew Sorokowski, and Christopher Zehnder discuss religion in the United States. (May 14, 2025)

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Listening to WCAT radio, your home for authentic Catholic programming.

Speaker 2 (00:07):
Okay, ready to ever be all right? Good morning, and
welcome to the open door. Today we are having a
panel discussion on the question of the membership losses in
the Catholic.

Speaker 3 (00:19):
Church, primarily in the United States.

Speaker 2 (00:22):
Let us begin with our customary prayer and the Father
and Son, WHI Spirit Man, Come, Holy Spirit, Fill the
hearts of your faithful and kindle in them the fire
of your love. Send forth your spirit, and they shall
be created. And you show we knew the face of
the earth. Let us pray O God, who has taught
the hearts of the faithful by the light of the
Holy Spirit. We had that in the same spirit we

(00:45):
may be truly wise, and every rejoice in this consolation
to Christ our Lord, Amen the Spirit. So that said, today,
myself and our UH Thomas Dork and our co host ANDREWS.
Rokowski and Christopherresenter will be discussing the results of a
Pew Research Center survey which came out a few months

(01:07):
ago and were stummarized in an article in The Crisis
magazine that was called Catholics are rapidly losing ground Just
to have A couple of the highlights from the article
is that only ninety percent of Americans self identify as Catholic,
and it's down from twenty four percent in two thousand

(01:28):
and seven, twenty percent decrease. And of course this is
self identified as protest as Catholic, it doesn't necessarily need
practice in Catholics. And then the other number that I'll
mention here is that, according to the Pew data and
the article, for every one hundred people who joined the
Catholic Church, eight hundred and forty leave, which.

Speaker 3 (01:50):
Is a tremendous loss of members.

Speaker 2 (01:55):
So and of those who are still identify as Catholic,
of course, necessarily every one of them goes demands or
makes us Eastern duty, et cetera, et cetera. So some
of the questions we might think about today or is
this data correct or is it incomplete? If so, if

(02:16):
it's correct, what are the reasons for this? And then
number three, what if anything, can we do about it,
either us as layman or the clergy of the shops.

Speaker 4 (02:34):
Well, the question whether it's correct or not.

Speaker 5 (02:36):
It seems to me that I wasn't really surprised by
this reading this, I just could to assume for years
that the Church has been drinking Western Europe, at least
West Europe, North America. I can't speak for Africa or
South America, but yeah, it's not I think it's patently true.

(02:56):
I mean, how many ex Catholics does what mean is
what how many observing Catholics?

Speaker 4 (03:02):
Is one need?

Speaker 5 (03:04):
We've had a big bleed off, and I guess just
confirms it, assuming of course.

Speaker 4 (03:10):
That the numbers are all correct.

Speaker 5 (03:12):
But yeah, I think in any case, yeah, it's it's
it's something that's been happening for a long time.

Speaker 6 (03:20):
I think the obvious objection that one can make is, well,
numbers aren't everything. I mean, obviously numbers are a lot,
because if you're talking about practice, then that's essential, and practice,
you know, would be indicated by membership in parishes and
so on, although maybe not perfectly. But there's also the

(03:45):
question of the depth of the attachment of people who
are members, you know, the church.

Speaker 3 (03:53):
I mean, what is the really.

Speaker 6 (03:54):
Really the depth of their practice. That's impossible to measure,
I suppose, but you know, simply being able to have
a good statistic, and you know, many I guess administrators
or parish priests are kind of under some pressure to
come up with good numbers. Obviously there can be abuses there.

(04:15):
You can count sort of people who show up, But
what is actually the quality of their attachment to the churches?
You know? Another question? And then the other thing one
can say is well, in the broad picture, how much
does that matter? You remember that? Then? Cardinal Ratzinger had
a famous I think radio talk in the sixties where

(04:38):
he said he predicted that the church would shrink, and
that it would be smaller, but perhaps purified, perhaps more solid.
So you know, those are a couple of kind of caveats.
What could bring up?

Speaker 3 (04:51):
I like you for.

Speaker 2 (04:52):
Another idea that calls along with what you said, but
is perhaps the opposite. And this is some historian, including
particularly Human Cloud, in that book of This Religion and
the People of Western Europe seventeen eighty nine nineteen eighty nine,
that in the early nineteenth century the commitment toward Catholicism

(05:13):
more in fact, any form of Christianity, became much more
personal but less societal.

Speaker 3 (05:18):
And he suggests that that was both lost and gain.

Speaker 2 (05:22):
Obviously it gained in terms of the the quality of belief,
but it.

Speaker 3 (05:33):
Lost a dimension.

Speaker 2 (05:35):
I would argue it lost a very important dimension of
societal belief. And perhaps it was even better that we
had this societal commitment even if there were fewer people
who were living in exemplary Catholic lives.

Speaker 3 (05:51):
So I don't even know, I mean, please, yeah.

Speaker 5 (05:58):
And I think it's also important to remember the Great
Commission is to make disciples of all nations, not of
all individuals. It's not to build up or to establish
a church of the pure, like some Protestant groups have wanted,
but it's to drag everybody in. So I think it's

(06:18):
a wonderful thing if I say, like prostitutes go to
Mass on Sunday, I mean not that they're prostitutes, but
they're actually they're doing something maybe which is directed toward
their final end. They at least recognize what their final
land is. That's better than them being completely separated. It's
often I remember getting an argument years ago on the

(06:41):
internet with somebody about this about as we're talking about Latinos,
and the question was, well, I said, well, Mexican culture
is Catholic. Well yeah, but there's a lot of poor
practice amongst a lot of superstition. I said, well, the
same thing could be said about our ancestors in Western
Europe not long ago. But the important thing is that

(07:04):
they're in the church, and that's what the church is.
It's it's like what process said, it's a hospital, it's
a field hospital. I think that's a good analogy.

Speaker 6 (07:12):
I think when you bring up Latinos, you know, certainly
here in California, what can observe every day? What's you know,
it's kind of going on. I mean, on the one hand,
the statistics in the US, and I think the article
notice notes that are better than they might otherwise be
because of immigration. On the other hand, a lot of
the Latinos who come to the US are already evangelicals,

(07:36):
or I should say they are not Catholics. Then there
is some indication that upon arrival in the US some
drift to the evangelical churches. And then, third of all,
there's also I think some evidence that religious affiliation tends
to fall as a result of immigration and assimilation into

(07:58):
the you know, the American melting pot. And I think
there there's a concern. I mean, on the one hand,
you do have a lot of immigrant communities preserving their
ethnic cultures for at least a generation or so, and
along with that the church affiliation comes, but as they
become part of the mainstream culture, assimilated to the melting pot,

(08:20):
I think the religious affiliation often fades along with that
because mainstream culture is not obviously Catholic culture or even
religious culture.

Speaker 2 (08:32):
Yeah, which points up I think the importance of the
of the point made by some of these historians, namely
that the culture is in a way the primary thing
that holds people in. And I agree with Christopher that
it's we're mistaken to say, oh that they don't practice
for everyone, their level of commitment is bad, so and

(08:55):
so on.

Speaker 3 (08:56):
Well that's not the point.

Speaker 2 (08:59):
The point is, are they recognizing themselves as Catholics? Are
they in many cases receiving the last Sacraments and dying
repentant rather than uh, the idea that the church would
be a small environment group almost like a like a
some secular group that does good, but it's really not

(09:24):
what the church was founded for.

Speaker 4 (09:27):
Well, there you have the contrast us. Sorry, no, go ahead,
So I mean there you have a.

Speaker 6 (09:35):
Contrast I think with Europe and I think we've talked
about this before that, and you have this phenomenon and
at least some of the European cultures, the Catholic ones
of the intellectuals who you know, set the tone for
the society. Many of them, certainly in their behavior and
in their practice, could not be described as Catholics. And

(09:55):
yet there was a certain sensibility, certain you know, cultural
attitude which was very influenced by Catholicism, even if these
people were, you know, at odds with the Church in
some respect. And now I don't think we have much
of that here. But whether that, you know, whether that's
a good thing or not is another question. But but

(10:17):
I think there's a difference in European and the American situation.

Speaker 5 (10:24):
So that are you saying in Europe even today there's
the situation is maintained or.

Speaker 6 (10:32):
Well that that I don't know. I mean that I
think is maybe not as much as it used to
be in the past, I don't, you know. And now
and then you hear about the intellectual who you know,
who somehow thinks of himself as a you know, you
hear that phrase kind of agnostic Catholic or asist Catholic.
You know, some people have you know, I don't really

(10:54):
know what to make of that, but but there is
such a phenomenon I think in the past, there were more.
I mean, certainly in France, you know, where religious practice
has declined, but still you had at least a generation
or two of maybe not very practicing intellectuals, writers and artists,

(11:14):
musicians who nevertheless had a Catholic sensibility. I just don't
think that's the case today as much.

Speaker 2 (11:24):
You know, when you say Catholic sensibility, do you mean,
for example, that they recognized the richness of their.

Speaker 3 (11:30):
Culture and how it was.

Speaker 2 (11:31):
Yeah, it was that the richness was caused by because
Ilicism largely.

Speaker 6 (11:36):
Yeah, and their imaginary world was was shaped by, you know,
the whole, the whole Catholic tradition. So they could be
they could be writers and artists who used Catholic themes,
Catholic concerns, Catholic issues, you know, who had a metaphysical
outlook on the world, even if they did not actually

(11:58):
accept the faith. And again, I mean that's a bad thing,
you know, in one way and in another way though
it kind of maintains a culture which which at least
has not forgotten that tradition. Today, I think we do
have a culture both here and in Europe where people
are simply ignorant of those traditions or don't care about them.

(12:19):
That's very different.

Speaker 5 (12:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (12:22):
You probably remember when the European Union refused to acknowledge Christianity.

Speaker 3 (12:26):
Is constitution is one of the formultive elements of European culture, right.

Speaker 2 (12:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (12:38):
The United States too are difficulty we face is that
we're we're very insular. History means United States history. Culture
is American culture. We don't really recognize much outside of
in terms of knowledge or or even often even of
value in other places.

Speaker 4 (12:59):
And so.

Speaker 5 (13:02):
We're locked in this American mill you and we can't
we can't really understand.

Speaker 4 (13:12):
Anything outside of it. And I think that, of course
was gonna was going to affect.

Speaker 5 (13:15):
Immigrants to the countries at least not maybe not the
first generation immigrants, but the second Their children will be
in fact affected by it and be drawn in because
just the sheer power of culture.

Speaker 2 (13:30):
Yeah, there's a there's a quote from Rodreer of all
people that I think is nonetheless. Uh, if I can
find this real quick, very uh good and brings that out.

(13:56):
I'm sorry here, I am.

Speaker 3 (14:00):
I have this. H I'm sorry going until I'm looking

(14:20):
for this.

Speaker 5 (14:21):
H m hm, Well, I'm thinking another thing I was
thinking in terms of the Carlo Ratt singer when he
talked about the church shrinking. I never heard that recording,
but I I would assume that he's not. This is
like saying this is this is the way the trip
is supposed to be at just a small little block.

Speaker 4 (14:41):
I would think it's a prediction.

Speaker 5 (14:44):
Yeah, I mean the good thing that would come out
of it is if you have a more observant church,
given given the natural impetus of the church, if we
fully live the faith, it's going to have to spread.
I mean we're going it's our our devotion in our
commitment is not going to be drawn in to ourselves.

(15:05):
It's going to be it's going to be missionary and
its effect. So I mean that's maybe what's happening now
is we're seeing it's this contraction. But the contraction is
important to give a kind of dynamism to the faith.

Speaker 2 (15:21):
Well, I heard that quotation from Rasking before. I don't
really I've never read it.

Speaker 3 (15:25):
In context, so I can't say what.

Speaker 2 (15:28):
He had in mind, But a lot of people seem
to quote it with a kind of a well, it.

Speaker 3 (15:33):
Doesn't really matter how many we have, as long as
we very committed.

Speaker 2 (15:38):
But I found a quote from Prayer and I'm sorry
this as goes on about you were saying, Christopher, He said,
I did not realize until I began traveling extensively, and
you're how profoundly Protestant, an English Protestant the United States
is that, despite our superficial diversity, the American identity is

(15:58):
built on an English.

Speaker 3 (16:00):
Hotestant conception of the world.

Speaker 2 (16:02):
Even our Catholics and Orthodox have been Protestantized because they
live in a Protestant nation, for better or for worse.
When in earlier decades we Americans insisted that immigrants assimilate,
what we expected them to assimilate too, was the culture
based on English Protestant values, which were the values of
the country's founders.

Speaker 3 (16:25):
So I think that that is quite correct.

Speaker 5 (16:30):
M yeah, and it's and it's it's aided by the
fact that right to be an American, it's not simply
to belong to a nationality. It really is no national group.
It's to belong to almost like a tested point in
this side. He said, the United States is the only

(16:50):
nation you knew of that was founded on the creed.
And to be a true American you have to you
have to be committed to that creed, and oftentimes that
creative does not correspond with Catholic sensibility. So we're always
living in a kind of compromise or most of only
two lives as American Catholics.

Speaker 2 (17:14):
Yeah, I think a lot of people take just transpidation
and regard it as a compliment to us.

Speaker 3 (17:21):
But I don't think it is, and I don't think
he meant it as such.

Speaker 5 (17:26):
No, at least either, And I guess that's part of
the part of the problem you're going to face, is
that when you have if you begin to realize that
you have conflicting commitments on a religious level, you're going
to have to at a certain point you're going to
either is that have to live with the lack of clarity,

(17:46):
or you're going to have to choose one or the other.
And I think that's what's happened in the United States,
so at least since the nineteen sixties, as Catholics have
chosen to be Americans and conservative, I mean what we
call conservatives, they have at least they at least I

(18:09):
think they have the same struggle. But there are enough
of their ideology is an agreement with the Catholic Church
that they can pretend that they can hold you know,
incorrect ideas on Catholic ideas, say on the social order
or labor relations whatever. Uh, it doesn't affect them as much.
But we come to it comes to a certain point
where you do have to choose. And I think that

(18:32):
maybe this is what's happening now, even as we'll see
what they what effect we'll have, what effect will be
have had upon the more conservative Catholics.

Speaker 2 (18:49):
Well, given that we're not likely to be able to
re establish kinds like sub cultures very effectively for a
long long time, and.

Speaker 3 (19:01):
So the situation we are dealing with is some sort
of free floating individuals in illogical mix where people can
choose what ideology they want and mix and masage according
to their preferences. What can we do.

Speaker 5 (19:26):
Well, I think what the article are discussing suggested that
we do it. It's tried to be very shallow. Yeah,
you know, it's just like the restoration the Baltimore Catechism.
The Baltimore Catechis is perfectly fine, but the Baltimore it wasn't.
The removal the Baltimore Catechis. There are other ways when

(19:47):
can communicate the faith of the Baltimore Catechism made the
traditional Latin Mass much more widely celebrated. Well, I have
no problem with the trici lasting more by than the celebrated,
but why why is there no reference to the actual
the New Right and making its worship more traditional. I

(20:08):
would think that would go a long way. So, whatever
it is, what I mean, abolish the usc c B.
I don't see that that's going to have much effect
on conversion.

Speaker 4 (20:22):
So I don't know. I would I would.

Speaker 5 (20:24):
I would think that when you ask the question what
should we do, there's a whole host of things that
we have to do, but the primary thing we have
to do is as Catholics, is rediscover what it means
to be Catholic, and that both in the personal level
and on the parochial level, family level, all these levels,

(20:46):
and to really strive for that holiness of life and
love of Christ that will make us effective missionaries or
just effective examples of the Catholic life to draw people in.

Speaker 4 (20:58):
And it is. I mean, we talked about it a
little bit whether.

Speaker 5 (21:03):
These predictions are as bleak as they seem as they
seem to be, but I think that's so we could
I think we could develop all sorts of particular reasons.
But the central thing we have to do is rediscover
Christ in the context of the Catholic Church and in
our tradition and our history.

Speaker 3 (21:26):
Well, isn't isn't that a little bit like the idea
of the church of very dedicated souls that'll grow a
little bit?

Speaker 5 (21:39):
Uh? I, Well, I think if the church is going
to recover, it's going to have to have a very
committed group of dedicated souls. It's not gonna it's not
gonna spread by people who barely pay attention.

Speaker 4 (21:57):
To what they believe.

Speaker 5 (21:59):
If if we're going to like who to educate people,
we have to know our faith, right. If you want
to speak to social issues, we have to know what
the Church says about these things. If we want to
attract people who are not so intellectual, we have to
we have to we have to body embody the Christian faith. So, yeah,

(22:22):
there has to be at least a core within the church,
and hopefully a core in every single parish. And maybe,
like I said before, maybe one of the things that
by the church has to contract right now is so
that it can actually expand again, sort of like a
big bang theory sort of thing.

Speaker 6 (22:38):
You and I think that is the idea of a
small core, you know, a small church if you will.
But the idea is, of course, in the long term,
this was the more effective way of spreading out again,
you know, the words you contract in order to expand.
But in your experience, let me ask you this. I mean,
have you seen such a core in action or have

(22:59):
you you know, observed in parishes or in community level
such a cores actually you know, existing and having some effect. Well,
I mean it's kind of virtual cores.

Speaker 5 (23:15):
Yeah, I mean, I am my own parents. Who is
a Dominican parish in Columbus, Ohio. Is every year they
have converce. I mean it's not hundreds of converts, but
I remember one year it was twenty five converts, both
both baptisms and confirmations adults at Easter vigil. I can't remember.

(23:37):
We weren't we didn't go to our parish at Easter
visil this year, but I think there was at least eight.
But I think what is most impressive is our bishop
when he came, our new Bishop of Earl Fernandez, we
came into Columbus. He replaced the Paulists at the Newman
Center at Ohio State university and with his own parochial clergy,

(24:03):
and this place.

Speaker 4 (24:04):
Has had a revival. I understand.

Speaker 5 (24:05):
I think this is the correct I was told this,
and I think it's true that this past Easter vigil
they had fifty.

Speaker 4 (24:12):
Students received to the church.

Speaker 5 (24:16):
And I think that's I mean, that's I mean, you
were talking about a secular university, right, all the influences
that students have in a second university, and fifty of
them become Catholics. Now, of course would like to see
one hundred and two hundred, but I mean, I think
that's they didn't have that record in the past.

Speaker 4 (24:34):
As I understand.

Speaker 5 (24:36):
I saw pictures of letting observe it like a ash
Wednesday Mass at the at the Newman Center, and it
was it was filled as students. So it is happening,
and it's happening in parishes. I mean, there have been
recent reports right in England and France of a large

(24:57):
number of conducts.

Speaker 4 (25:00):
So yeah, I think you.

Speaker 2 (25:04):
Yeah, That's why I raised one of the points of
the beginnings is this are the figures from this Pew
study incomplete, in the sense that while we might be
losing the huge numbers that they specify, maybe there's an
under under undercurrent of people coming in that has not
been caught statistically yet, which will in uh provide the

(25:31):
basis for concindient revival. But as far as as far
as retaining people who are already Catholics do either what
do Atherby think about as a kind of a substitute
for a Catholic subculture, in which that the parish try
to develop a more ay more active and intentional culture

(25:53):
of its own. And there are many many ways this
could be done. But and trying to make people then,
as with their parents. When I see, for example, a mass,
I'm in the same diocese that Christopher is. When I
see people in mass, uh uh, it's very large Paris,
the largest in the dioces. But many of them, hope
seem to be particularly devout. Well how you can't always tell,

(26:17):
of course, they're working, but you know, I think this
is great, this is good. These are ordinary people coming
the Mass. And how do we make how do we
strengthen their identification with the with the parish and therefore
with the universal Church. Uh not necessar I mean, I'm

(26:38):
certainly not against the greatest amount of theological or religious
knowledge and the greatest amount of devotion.

Speaker 3 (26:45):
They're obviously not.

Speaker 2 (26:47):
But I'm thinking along the lines of how do we
get something or something analogous to the Catholic subculture again,
if that's.

Speaker 5 (26:58):
Possible, well, I think one thing we could do is
look at what people need.

Speaker 4 (27:09):
And sometimes there's very practical things.

Speaker 5 (27:11):
You know, people are suffer from various misfortunes, sickness, loss
of a job, insufficient income andjustice. How can how can
really look seriously at how perishes can address those things.

Speaker 4 (27:30):
I mean, Dorothy, they.

Speaker 5 (27:31):
Talked about having a house hospitality in every parish. I
don't know if that's possible, but I think something along
that line is would be helpful to draw people who
are not particularly spiritual or not particularly interested in religious things,
but to draw them in by the witness of the
charity of Christ embody and embodied forth in the church.

Speaker 4 (27:57):
That would be one thing, I mean. And then there's
all sorts of I mean also.

Speaker 5 (28:00):
Of different kinds of support could be given in a parish,
and often depending on the size of the parish and
other resources. But your parish, for instance, Tom, could it
does do a lot? I think, yeah, is that true?

Speaker 2 (28:14):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (28:14):
It had had a tremendous number of people received into
the church on Easter. I don't remember now, it was
maybe fifty, but it was a large number. And you know,
it's easy, it seems to be.

Speaker 2 (28:31):
Andrew was talking before about the the European intellectuals who
have a count acsensibility, and it seems to be very
easy for an intellectual, either historically, philosophically, artistically to see
the value of cancer tradition. But for somebody who doesn't
have depth in those areas and who's totally caught up

(28:55):
in the secular culture, the Canther tradition seems the best
mirrored and uh, maybe irrelevant or clearly unknown. Is So
there's people, and obviously they're going to be the majority
of people.

Speaker 3 (29:09):
How do you reach them? How do you do you?
I guess I'm always thinking in terms.

Speaker 2 (29:14):
Of retaining people first, as the first step is trying
to retain people.

Speaker 3 (29:19):
Maybe that's not true, but that's how I tend to
think of things.

Speaker 2 (29:22):
How do we stop how do we stop the losses?
Then we can think about how to go out and
get more people.

Speaker 6 (29:33):
The parishes that you mentioned, well, I guess the parish
that you mentioned, I wonder is it, uh is it
very local and What I mean by that is there
when I think of parishes historically, they're they're composed of
people who see each other every day during the week. Also,
they're not just once you know, people that they encounter
once a week. They're people who know each other, you know,

(29:55):
in daily life. And I would think that would make
some difference too, because if you spend you know, two
hours you know, one hour with your fellow parishioners per week,
and then you spend you know, forty hours with co
workers who are you know, secular in their outlooks, particularly
fear in the professions or business that may be the case,

(30:17):
then you're obviously going to gravitate towards the latter, uh,
you know, socially, and that means that in your behavior
you will also you know, gravitate. I mean, if you
work for some big corporation which you know has meetings
on Sunday, you know, for example, and you're the only
you know, Catholic in your office, you know, the people

(30:38):
that you see, you know on Sunday for an hour
maybe are not going to be the more influential ones
in your life. So I'm just thinking, sociologically, how does
how does the parish really affect people's behavior.

Speaker 5 (30:55):
My parish, the Dominican parish, is what you call destination parish.
People go there because primarily because of the of the
of the liturgies, quality of the liturgies, and and for
things like catechises for their children, and so people.

Speaker 4 (31:11):
Come from all over. So we, you know, we don't
see each other. I know there was.

Speaker 5 (31:16):
Years ago they were trying to get performed local groups
of parishioners in different areas much they come. But then
COVID hit, So I'm not I'm not sure the status
of that movement. I think one of the groups I
know might still be meeting, but I don't know of
any others, but that that's something I a should look into.

(31:37):
But that was one. So but yeah, Tom, I don't know, Tom.
Yours is more of a suburban parish, right, yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:46):
Well, I mean originally Westernville wasn't It was not really
the summer. But in the last I suppose forty years,
it's become a suberb colpus effectively, and it's a very
very large parish, includes large areas of georadically large areas
of well, I mean supposedly it has ten thousand Catholics

(32:06):
although not that many ten mass of night means, but.

Speaker 3 (32:11):
Still the masses are very well attended.

Speaker 2 (32:15):
And I don't know whether or not most of the
people live within the parish boundaries.

Speaker 3 (32:20):
I probably hazard a guess they do, but I'm not
sure about that.

Speaker 2 (32:26):
Well, I have to say most of them do, but
I don't know what the percentage of them outside the
boundaries are.

Speaker 4 (32:36):
Yeah, I think too.

Speaker 5 (32:38):
I mean, what a what a bishop does, it makes
a big difference. And the clergy, and the clergy are
going to be have to be the leads and a
lot of this. I mean, we can, we can we
lame and how can do certain things. We can suggest things,
we can volunteer for things. But if you if you
don't have the clergy with you, you're you don't have
the perish with you. So but we in this and

(33:01):
in our diocese we have our previous two bishops. I
think we're good men and diocese in a pretty healthy condition.
I think our current bishop is exceptionally good and we're
getting interesting number a number of of.

Speaker 4 (33:20):
Of young men discerning the priesthood.

Speaker 5 (33:23):
I think it's I think the diocese has not forty
young men discerning the priesthood.

Speaker 4 (33:28):
One of them is my son.

Speaker 5 (33:29):
And but even in a place like Cincinnati, which I
don't think has the same dynamism that that Columbus has,
I think they have a comparable number of men, young
men going into the discerning the vocation. So there's something
happening in different areas. At least it's not uniform. But

(33:50):
but I think a lot of it depends on the
quality of your leadership too in the diocese.

Speaker 6 (34:00):
Another aspect I wonder about, and this is really a
question to both of you, from what you've observed, how
does I mean I would think that to perpetuate or
revive a Catholic milieu, you have to start, you know,
with the Catholic family, or actually with the Catholic marriage. Now,

(34:20):
how many Catholics that you that you know of in
your parishes are actually married to other Catholics and how
many are not? And are there those who are, you know,
let's say either the husband or the wife is the
is the sole participant in the church. Because sociologically, again,
you know, when I see Catholics kind of leaving a millieu,

(34:45):
let's say, an ethnic community and going out into the
broader culture, they come into contact with people of all
sorts of you know, backgrounds religiously or philosophically, and there
is you know, probably a lot of I mean, I've
seen a lot of Catholics who are married to non
Catholics and they deal with that and sometimes the non
Catholic joins the church or at least goes along with

(35:07):
bringing up the children and the church. But very often
that doesn't happen. Is that DNA? I mean, how do
you see that dynamic in your parishes that doesn't make
a difference that there is some certain amount of ex
all I.

Speaker 5 (35:25):
I don't know many people in my parish who are
where the husband mother stoles is not Catholic. I know
of one family that was the case in the husband
became a Catholic, but before that he was he was
going to Mass with the family and had the children
raised as Catholics. But he ended up entering the church himself.

(35:46):
But again that's probably because I have a destination parish,
so the people who choose to come there are people
who are have a certain level commitment already.

Speaker 2 (35:56):
Yeah, well our parish there, I can't really say answer
the question, but I would say there there are not
very many weddings, so it appears they announce the bands
of marriage, which I don't think is all not common anymore,
but the times they do that are not very often.
I mean it's it's mostly doesn't do that many weddings,

(36:19):
and I don't know why. There seem to be a
lot of young people. I see them a mass, often
by themselves, and I think, what is their situation?

Speaker 3 (36:31):
I wonder about them.

Speaker 2 (36:32):
But not a whole lot of weddings. But yeah, you're
right about the about the family.

Speaker 3 (36:41):
I think, Andrew men about uh, you know one thing
I wish I don't think we have, or or maybe
we do, but it's kind of more of one a
Catholic basically a Catholic singles club to promote Catholic marriages.
I think that's actually one of the most important things
that a parents can do right.

Speaker 5 (36:57):
Now, well most of I think most parishes have something
like that young group. My daughter, one of my daughters,
goes to a young adults group in Columbus, which seems
pretty solid. Is you know, I can't remember the Church

(37:20):
of Saint Christopher's. I guess I can't remember, but seeing
a pretty good group. But I know Saint Patrick's has one.
That's my parish. Westerville has one, I believe. I think
my daughter, my daughter lived in Westerville, she was going
to some young adults group.

Speaker 2 (37:39):
Yeah, there is I think there is one, but it
doesn't seem to get much. You already ever see anything
about it in the bulletin, So I don't know. Maybe
it's maybe it doesn't be part of it to know,
so I could be wrong. Well, on the broader social level,
how about football you've already mentioned, you know, universities were
in a secular university. I think having some sort of

(38:00):
like I don't know how the Newman centers have fared,
but that kind of group is very useful because that's
obviously an age where people make big life decisions, you know,
both in terms of their.

Speaker 6 (38:13):
Personal philosophy and of their marriage plans. So I think
the university groups or fellowships whatever you call them, are important.
There are also professional groups. I know, lawyers have like
a Thomas Moore society, that kind of thing. Doctors have, no,
physicians have Catholic societies, and I think that may be
something that could stem this kind of tide of people

(38:36):
leaving the church as they get into you know, mainstream
American life.

Speaker 4 (38:45):
Well struggle.

Speaker 5 (38:48):
I think the struggle with all these groups is that
those who lead it understand what a Catholic culture is
or what a specific Catholic ideas. Oftentimes, if you or
what we call orthodox Catholics, the impression is is that
conservative Americanism, American conservatism, i should say, is the expression

(39:11):
of a Catholic view of the of of social life.
And so it's actually we become our groups become republicanized
or conservatized, kind of the term you call it. And
so we're being we're being levened, We're not levity. So

(39:31):
that's what I think the difficulties we have to somehow
get a sense of what it actually means to be
have a Catholic culture, What is what are the aspects
of a Catholic culture. It's not I think with George
shantianist and Catholic the United States are Protestants to pray
the Rosary? How do we get beyond being products are
pray the Rosary?

Speaker 2 (39:52):
You know?

Speaker 3 (39:53):
Well, it seems to be a key point that is
the formation of priests.

Speaker 2 (39:59):
If priests are on the same level that they think
to be a good Catholic is to be a conservative.

Speaker 3 (40:05):
If a political conservative.

Speaker 2 (40:08):
If priests think that, then the lady are not going
to have any most lady, you are not going to
have any other view. So what our seminary is doing
anything in this area?

Speaker 4 (40:23):
Well, my son's in a seminary. I'm not sure what
they're doing on that.

Speaker 5 (40:26):
I know they had I know he had a class
this past year on Catholic culture, and I'm not sure
it's what actually touched on. I know it touched on
the typical things of I think architecture and music and
things of that sort of which are important.

Speaker 4 (40:42):
Part of it is. I think a good study of.

Speaker 5 (40:45):
History will reveal a lot about what makes Catholic cultures
distinct then from Protestant cultures. And so with that requires,
of course, we get out from anunder the weight I think,
the weight of the Americans, American people, the predominance of

(41:12):
American thought.

Speaker 4 (41:15):
Yeah, do you think that.

Speaker 6 (41:17):
It's also a question of you know, episcopal leadership. Uh,
you know, is the tone being said? I mean, are
the bishop's teaching a sort of faith that rises above
politics or or are they perceived sometimes as being politically engaged.
I mean, I don't know the answer. Maybe follow this

(41:37):
more closely, well, I don't.

Speaker 2 (41:40):
Think too many of them have a real understanding of
the necessity two.

Speaker 3 (41:48):
Uh, not just rise above, but to almost jettison the
American is cultural outlook. Uh.

Speaker 2 (42:00):
I fear that most pictiops don't don't perceive the problem.

Speaker 4 (42:07):
And this is and that's nothing new in the American Church. Rise.

Speaker 5 (42:09):
This is not some post Vatican two thing. This is
something that would not characterize the American Church historically.

Speaker 4 (42:17):
In order to.

Speaker 5 (42:18):
Get along to the immigrant population could actually survive some
modicum of prosperity. I think a lot of compromises were made,
and those compromises have become just the way of life,
the way of thinking.

Speaker 3 (42:38):
Yeah, but I think you mentioned earlier Besomer that it
has gotten much worse since the sixties, and when they're
before that, things weren't perfect or even maybe that great.
But there was a certain sense of a Catholic subculture,
I think, and a certain sense that we're different, which.

Speaker 4 (42:57):
Is especially Antankris Germans.

Speaker 2 (43:03):
Nowadays, Calolics are likely if you're a conservative Catholic, I
think you're more likely to identify with a conservative Proston
rather than with uh liberal Catholic and vice versa. The
whole Gothic their their real identity is not in their
faith but in their political commandment. Uh and then the

(43:24):
other and the other Catholics are just so much the.

Speaker 3 (43:28):
Worse, too bad for them.

Speaker 5 (43:33):
Well, it's interesting because that because I I've heard some
Catholics who are fairly devout Catholics.

Speaker 4 (43:43):
Positive that our new pope is a leftist because.

Speaker 5 (43:47):
It's really I get I'm not quite sure why, but
I mean perhaps because he's he says he's committed to
Catholic social teaching. I don't know, but I think that's
that's not going to be I wouldn't be surprised if
that that sticks with him, but I was I want.

Speaker 4 (44:04):
To bring that up, and in part because.

Speaker 5 (44:09):
Maybe if Pope of the fourteenth actually really tries to
emphasize the teacher popely the thirteenth and I dare say,
the teaching at pist leven and Pope's after that, and
really clarifies Catholic social teaching, maybe that could be a
way of I mean, people the American Catholics will just
reject it because it's not American, but it also a

(44:31):
lot of Catholics are you know, committed, are faithful to
the papacy, and it might waken them up that there's
some there's some there's something else out there. Then the
typical American way of thinking about the social order, about
economics and the environment and everything else of that sort,
I hope is not a hope, as I hold that
as a as a hope.

Speaker 4 (44:54):
Everything what happens, remains to be seen. Of course.

Speaker 2 (44:59):
Yeah, we'll get home. Now, there's another point that we
haven't touched on Munch, and this is to one extent,
should the church.

Speaker 3 (45:11):
In the US or anywhere really.

Speaker 2 (45:15):
Be engaging in an aggressive intellectual apologetics? Does that really
have a place anymore? And most people not interested in
the philosophical and historical arguments for Catholicism, so that we
would we would do better just to to concentrate other factors.

(45:35):
And it's only the rare intellectual who would be affected
by such arguments.

Speaker 3 (45:41):
What do you think about that.

Speaker 6 (45:44):
Well, I would site it's very important because whatever the
intellectuals are thinking today is going to filter down to
the masses, you know, sometimes one or two generations later.
I mean, we have you know, I think you can
even point to certain trends, you know, philosophical trends which
are only filtered down after you know, thirty forty fifty years.

(46:08):
So now we see the results of you know, turn
of the twentieth century philosophical thinking, you know, becoming part
of part of popular culture almost and so I think
it's important.

Speaker 5 (46:22):
Yeah, yeah, well I think it's important because I wouldn't
be Catholic.

Speaker 4 (46:30):
Of it did have these kind of outreaches. I don't
think we do, tom yeah, you know, but.

Speaker 5 (46:37):
I know I tend to think we don't have to
choose between avenues.

Speaker 4 (46:45):
People can be people arise.

Speaker 5 (46:47):
To take care of what they what they feel that
they're committed to taking care of the vast majority of
the out which is not to be intellectual, because the
vast number of people are not intellectual. But we need intellectuals,
and we need intellectuals need the church as much as
anybody else. And they can't just be neglected because you know,
they're they're not the majority.

Speaker 4 (47:08):
I know that's what you're suggesting.

Speaker 5 (47:10):
But but you know that along with soup kitchens, why not,
why can't or you know, even maybe street evangelization like
they used to do all different things. And I think
it's just a matter of having a vibrant imagination as
to what the possibilities are and a zeal to discover

(47:31):
what avenues can be pursued. If we have that, we
can we can I think, turn the tie of this
reversal around.

Speaker 2 (47:46):
Well in the culture like Europe, where which I think,
and Andrew, you can you can speak to this more
than I can, which is well, it's certainly more intellectual
than the United States. I think that's how much so
you can doctor Moore, Andrew, I can see a greater
concentration on the intellectual apostle. I mean, just say, bishops

(48:10):
having discussions or talks and their cathedrals, not necessarily explicitly apologetic,
but just to acquaint people with the depth of Catholic thoughts,
whereas I can't see that having too much traction over
here that I don't think dominating would be interested.

Speaker 3 (48:29):
I mean, yes, the.

Speaker 2 (48:30):
Intellectual apostle is important and noted both he and I
came into the Church through the process of reasoning. But
if you look at, say, if you look at the
Coming Home Networks monthly accounts of conversions, most of them

(48:50):
are people who were already religiously committed as Protestants, and
they began to see the the the flaws in the
source cripture approach which led them to look at the
early church and bingo, they're canacors the number of people
who started out as agnostics or atheists once more.

Speaker 6 (49:17):
Mh yeah, I suppose it really depends on what sector
of society you're looking at. I mean, it's you know,
it's a huge question whether you're talking about Europe or America,
and there's the question of which sector of society is

(49:38):
setting the tone. Uh, you know, you get you get
a few high profile conversions, and those can have an
enormous effect if they're top politicians or entertainers or or
writers or artists. But then you know, at the other end,
the sort of local neighborhood kind of evangelization has its

(50:01):
alects to I mean, I think I think you're right
when you say you have to really kind of work
on all fronts. I think maybe the thing that it
will intrigue thinking people is that we can work on
all fronts and that we have something to say to
the you know, the working man, and we have something
to say to the politician and something to the artist,
and it's all of a piece and it all, you know,

(50:23):
hangs together. I think that's maybe the striking thing, you know,
unlike political ideologies, Unlike any ideology. You know, the faith
is something that is so varied that it speaks to
everyone in the same voice. And yet you know it
can't speak very directly to anyone at any level in

(50:44):
any new youth.

Speaker 3 (50:51):
Yeah, but how do you how do you well, what
do you start?

Speaker 2 (50:56):
Do you start with the seminaries, with with giving some
kind of a vision to seminaries and who determinans the
curriculum in the seminaries?

Speaker 3 (51:07):
I don't know to what extent it centralized in Rome.

Speaker 2 (51:11):
I know, Andrew, you have some contact with some of
the hierarchs in the Ukrainian Catholic Church. Are uh can
you speak to whether they're addressing these questions and help.

Speaker 6 (51:23):
Well, the thing is that the much you know, many
of of the newer clergy, the younger clergy, are actually
sent to you know, Latin right Roman Catholic uh institutions
of various sorts around the world. So in the sense
they encounter the same the same the same things that

(51:44):
do Latin right Catholics. And I think you know there,
I mean, there are other issues that they deal with.
I'm not sure that they I think their emphasis is
simply on serving the people they already have. And you know,
they speak of evangelization, but I think what in fact

(52:04):
they have their hands full of just dealing with the
people they they are already have intrusting to them.

Speaker 3 (52:12):
I recall something that you had written a number of
years ago, Andrew, in which.

Speaker 2 (52:17):
The question of of Ukrainian Catholics and Ukrainian cultural identity.

Speaker 3 (52:26):
I don't know if you remember that.

Speaker 6 (52:27):
And written about it, yeah.

Speaker 2 (52:30):
Yeah, and an extent to which uh was say, for example,
people leave the Ukrainian subculture and they either cea being
conflict or become the Latin Catholics.

Speaker 6 (52:44):
Well, or you know, cease being Catholics altogether. Indeed, as
you say, you know, and that's the prob if we're
talking about the you know, immigrants in the US. Uh,
there are you know, huge wave now refugees and immigrants
from Ukraine into the US. Now, the interesting question is,
you know, from our point of view, is you know,
do they join churches when they get here? And there

(53:05):
is that small core you will see, but it could
consist of you know, maybe twelve people in a given
perish literally and I think many find it very easy
to transition from a sort of post Soviet secular culture
to American secular culture. And you know, immigrants tend to
kind of you know, look, I mean wherever they come from.

(53:28):
I mean, immigrants to some extent are looking for which
way the wind is blowing in the host society, and
they very much want to conform. You know, we think
of immigrants now, as you know, trying to preserve their
distinct cultures, and there's some truth in that, but there's
also I think among all immigrants a very strong desire
to conform to the norms of the society as they

(53:51):
perceive it. And you know, we shouldn't be surprised that
they perceive American societies being very secular, materialistic, technological, ambitious,
and those are the values that they will often accept,
and they may you know, leave their Catholic values in
second place, or abandon them all together. So I think

(54:11):
this is a problem with immigrant churches.

Speaker 3 (54:15):
You know.

Speaker 2 (54:20):
Yeah, well, it's already happened to our ancestors of most Christophers.
Well I guess here of us, one of us are
German heritage, but not.

Speaker 3 (54:31):
German Catholic heritage.

Speaker 2 (54:33):
But it's already happened to most of most of the Germans, Italians,
Poles is on.

Speaker 3 (54:40):
So when we expect it to.

Speaker 2 (54:42):
This is why the question of the Latino is so important,
because here you have a very large immigrant group, and
with a certain amount of back and forth between the
United States and Mexico.

Speaker 3 (54:54):
I was saying, more probably than you between with Ukraine.
I guess, so, uh, will will the church be able
to uh do a better job with Latinos than she
has done with Italians or journals?

Speaker 5 (55:12):
Yeah, well, I be interesting to see in the statistics
of how many Latinos actually remain in the Catholic Church
once they get here.

Speaker 4 (55:28):
Yeah, the same kind of bleed off that.

Speaker 6 (55:33):
Yeah, and I think it seems you know, it seems
to me that I mean, I've seen examples, you know,
at least to one example recently of this where the
kind of evangelical approach you know, to life in general
seems so attuned to a broader American approach, you know,
individual ambition, you know, making money, succeeding, you know, the

(55:53):
whole prosperity gospel.

Speaker 2 (55:56):
Uh.

Speaker 6 (55:57):
That's going to strike many people as being more American
than the Catholic approach, where you know, well it obviously
at odds with with American culture in many ways. That's
the problem with immigrants, I think they there. I don't
think that they are going to be attracted to a way,
you know, to an ethos which is at odds with

(56:17):
with the the American mainstream values. Yeah, you know, I think,
you know, maybe in the nineteenth century, obviously, you know, immigrants,
Catholic immigrants were used to living in countries where they

(56:39):
were you know, in the opposition at odds. I mean,
for example, Catholics in in uh, you know, Prussia, you know,
you know who lived through the courtur comp those people
were present, I would guess, you know, already kind of
positioned to be oppositional and to go against the current.
You know, Catholics from from Russia, Catholics from you know,

(57:03):
countries where they had been where there had been persecution,
well even Mexico at one point, right they they could
come to America and have a habit of mind which
is which is somewhat contrarian. That may not be the
case today.

Speaker 4 (57:20):
I think.

Speaker 5 (57:25):
Because in nineteenth century Germans actually formed communities where they
would keep their language and their culture and the religion
intact that was that was that was the German answer.
It was more like a instead of a Melti pot
of mosaic and culture mosaic. I mean, there was always
recognition that that that there, that their children and grandchildren

(57:46):
would probably assimbily, but they thought the assimilation should be slow.

Speaker 3 (57:51):
Mm hmm, yeah, I would think.

Speaker 4 (57:54):
But the Irish didn't have that.

Speaker 3 (57:56):
Yeah, yeah, go ahead to You have.

Speaker 6 (58:00):
An Ireland which seems to be at least on the
surface so secular, monitored at least on the political level.
It kind of wonders, you know, sometimes the immigrant communities
preserve something which is lost in the home country. But
I'm not sure that's going to last very long either.

Speaker 3 (58:18):
And I think.

Speaker 2 (58:21):
You were brought down about the Prussian Catholic in Prussia, and Andrew,
is a difference between say a German Catholic from say
ther Island who found himself or of Prussia and the
Prussian government to some extent being Antichtholic, and someone is,
say from Italy, where the government might have been anti Catholic,
but it was the kind of anti Catholic Catholic, Yes, yes,

(58:45):
and the culture was still thoroughly Catholic, and they understood
even even then, the clericals understood the Catholic way of thinking.
Say a Prussian from Berlin, who is say the official
and go alone the Catholic was just bizarre there he
is didn't understand that. And I think we're in that

(59:09):
way the United States that the Protestant mind just really
doesn't understand the Cathic mind. I mean, m h, we're
so focused now on so many people are even Catholics,
well maybe especially Catholics. There's really no big difference, but
there's huge differences both in not only theology, but in

(59:30):
the culture and broader cultural Oh.

Speaker 4 (59:33):
Well, yeah.

Speaker 5 (59:37):
And one of the one of the problems is because
the United States historically looked upon religion as a means
to an end. First Washington famously supported religion because it's
good to good Republican virtue. We don't we don't we
don't look upon religion as the end and culturally in
this country. So it's good that really that will affect

(01:00:01):
Catholics too. So what is the is the primary influence.

Speaker 4 (01:00:04):
Of your life?

Speaker 5 (01:00:05):
What is the thing which you give you gives meaning
to your life? Is it your religion or is your nationality?
Is your religion only good because well it makes you
a good citizen?

Speaker 4 (01:00:14):
Or is it?

Speaker 5 (01:00:15):
Or are you a good citizen because it helps you
follow your religion better faithful to your religion? What is
what does it means? What's the end?

Speaker 4 (01:00:26):
And that's I think one of the things we suffer
from here.

Speaker 5 (01:00:29):
And it makes us incapable of fully entry into what
it means to be Catholic.

Speaker 2 (01:00:40):
Yeah, well, I think we've had a very interesting one
wage and discussion. Do either of you have any less
what'd you want to bring up?

Speaker 3 (01:00:50):
One thing?

Speaker 6 (01:00:50):
I would just bring up This is a very broad point,
but I'm just wondering. You know, when we look about
you know, we look at causes, you know, for for
decline and Catholic numbers. You know, if we look at
the perspective of the culture in general, or even the civilization,
I mean, we see so many or some of us
see so many signs of well what everyone call, you know,

(01:01:11):
many people call a decline or at least some kind
of transition to a different kind of civilization perhaps, and
this could be part of it. In other words, maybe
it's not just the fault of you know, the Catholic
leadership or of Catholics themselves, but you know, a phenomenon

(01:01:31):
which which is broader, which encompasses other aspects of life,
other kinds of institutions, not only religious institutions, but you know, educational, cultural.

Speaker 3 (01:01:42):
And so on.

Speaker 6 (01:01:43):
So you know, I mean, there's nothing that I suppose
not much of it can be done if you're talking
about a general civilizational decline, if that is what in
fact is happening, or if it's a transition to a
new kind of civilization, and in that perspective, you know,
maybe shouldn't be blaming ourselves too much. On the other hand,
we do want to do something about it, so we

(01:02:04):
have to look for causes. But the causes might be
broader than just faults of the church itself or of
its members.

Speaker 2 (01:02:12):
Just a thought, Okay, then when don't we end up
with a Ail Mary committing all this to our lady?
He'll Mary, old Grace, the Lord is methys women and
Blisten is really Jesus only Mary, Mother of God. Pray

(01:02:34):
for us there is now. Thank you, gentlemen much.

Speaker 1 (01:02:45):
Hello, God's beloved. I'm Annabel Mosley, author, professor of theology,
and host of them Sings My Soul and Destination Sainthood
on w c A T Radio. I invite you to
listen in and find inspirational along this sacred journey. We're
traveling together to make our lives a masterpiece and with

(01:03:06):
God's grace, become saints. Join me Annabel Moseley for then
sings My Soul and Destination Sainthood on WCAT Radio. God
bless you. Remember you are never alone. God is always
with you.

Speaker 3 (01:03:27):
Thank you for listening to a production of WCAT Radio.
Please join us in our mission of evangelization, and don't
forget Love lifts up when knowledge takes flight.