In this episode of The Open Door, panelists Thomas Storck, Christopher Zehnder, and Andrew Sorokowski interview Dann Aungst on his Facilitator Guide entitled Winning the Battle for Sexual Purity, designed to run small groups utilizing the Winning the Battle book by Road to Purity.
https://www.amazon.com/Winning-battle-sexual-purity-Facilitator/dp/B0F5NQQB4F/
Questions asked:
https://www.amazon.com/Winning-battle-sexual-purity-Facilitator/dp/B0F5NQQB4F/
Questions asked:
- Can you tell our viewers and listeners what is the basic thesis of your book, Winning the Battle?
- Holy Scripture provides more than sufficient evidence that men have lusted toward women since recorded history. In the past this was seen solely as a moral problem. Granted that lust when consented to is a mortal sin and to be avoided by the usual means of avoiding sin, why do you see psychological factors as looming so large in considerations of this sin?
- Do you think that in the past the psychological aspect, i.e. addiction, has not been recognized or emphasized enough?
- When counseling those addicted to pornography do you emphasize the moral or the psychological aspects more?
- What psychological or spiritual approach do you take?
- I once read a distinction between pornography use as something when, for whatever reason, a man is unable to have access to a real woman, versus pornography use as a preferred substitute for a real woman. Do you think that that the latter is more common today than in the past? If so, what do you see as the reasons for that?
- The reported increase in pornography addiction is roughly in tandem with the reported "male crisis" of boys and young men who feel disoriented, demoralized, and unsure of their social roles. This, in turn, is allegedly a byproduct of contemporary feminism, with many women taking on dominant male roles in work and family.
- Do you think these three developments are connected? If so, does your approach to porn addiction take the "male crisis" and modern feminism into account?
- Supposedly one positive result of feminism has been that it is no longer socially acceptable for men to regard women as "objects" of lust; rather, they should see them as fellow human beings whom they should treat with respect, friendship and love. But given the (unintended?) effects of feminism on men, do you see this as paradoxical?
- Your book is evidently addressed to committed Catholics, who are open to a religious approach to the problem of pornography addiction. But many Catholics today would regard this as a problem that the Church is not qualified to deal with, because it is led by celibate men with insufficient experience and understanding of sex; instead, they would consult with secular psychologists. How would you respond to this objection?
- For people addicted to pornography, can you give us a couple of examples in the book's daily action plan that people can do today to help stop the habit?
- How does your book, Winning the Battle help any addiction habit, whether it be alcoholism, sexual impurity, or drugs, fall away on its own?
- Where can people go to purchase Winning the Battle, along with Holy Hours, and other helpful prayerful resources
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
You're listening to w c AT radio, your home for
authentic Catholic programming.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Welcome to the Open Door. Your hosts Thomas Stork and
co hosts Christophersinder and andrews Rakowski. Our guest today is
Dan Augst who talk about his book Winning the Battle
for Purity. Let's begin, as we do, with our prayer
the name of Father Son Oi Spirit, immen, Come, Holy Spirit,
(00:26):
Fill the hearts of your faithful and kindle in them
the fire of your love. Send forth your Spirit, and
they shall be created, and you shall renew the face
of the earth. Let us pray, Oh God, who by
the light of the Holy Spirit, it instruck the hearts
of the faithful, gant that by the same Holy Spirit
we have be truly wise ever enjoy his consolations to
Christ our Lord. Amen, Father, so Holy Spirit. Amen. Well,
(00:52):
thank you very much Dan for being our guest today.
Uh uh, the author of the book Winning the Battle
for Actual Purity. And then we could start off that
you could summarize what your book is about for our listeners.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Sure, the book is is actually a more recent newer
version culminated of years of other books and programs and
products that we do semming from ultimately my own recovery
and over the past, you know, many years. It is
a book designed to guide a person really kind of
(01:32):
hold their hand through discovering a process for recovery in
pornography addiction, sex addiction, and it really works with most
any addictions because of the depth of it. Guide you
through the steps of understanding where to get started, deciding boundaries,
understanding yourself, looking at woundedness, healing those kinds of things.
(01:58):
And it has a four two day plan of an
activity and a tracker day to day that you can
go through with that. So there's nineteen chapters in it.
It's a little over one hundred pages, and it's very
easy to follow read. It's used in small groups individually,
(02:19):
and we're putting it online. There's an audio version somewhere
too that we're getting put up.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Okay, this is your problem. We're not hearing you speaking.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
What's Oh? Can you hear me?
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Now? Yeah? We hear now? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (02:44):
Okay. Did you did you hear what I was when
I talked about the book or did you miss that?
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Just at the very end we couldn't hear it?
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Oh? Okay, no, we say what the book at the
end of it, it goes through all of the other
processes and woundedness and helping a person heal and so forth.
And there's also a guide at the end, kind of
a daily action planner for forty two days to get
(03:18):
a person started on their healing and tracking their boundaries
and behaviors. And it kind of grows through things and
helps guide them through inviting them the sacraments to do regularly, confession,
those kinds of things that capitalizes on what they learned
through the nineteen chapters of the book.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Now, one question that occurs to me to ask you,
is just all the scripture itself provides plenty of evidence
that there's been a problem with lust for chiefly men.
I suppose for centuries on court history and in the
past this was seen at least mostly or perhaps only,
(04:00):
as a moral problem. Now you seem to be emphasizing
the psychological aspect in the sense of an addiction to this. Now,
the Church has always, of course had means of evo
immortals in h including some of them that you mentioned
in the sacrament is on. But do you think that
the psychological factor has been uh not sufficiently recognized in
(04:23):
the past, uh And that it needs to loom larger
in our approach to this.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
I believe so in my in my own recovery and
my extensive UH time working with us as well as others.
What I have discovered is that while it is a
spiritual issue at its root, that spiritual issue, because it's
involves you know, enemy and demonic activity and so forth,
(04:51):
plays on our emotional woundedness. Our natural tendencies are our
our falls, behaviors and those kinds of things, our own
concupiscence and whatnot. So to really address an addiction like this,
it needs to be addressed in four ways. Needs to
(05:12):
be spiritual, emotional, behavior, and chemical in all these ways
all need to be addressed to really effectively get a
hold of this. And yes, it is at a spiritual root,
but it reveals itself in all these other areas, So
those areas need to be approached and attacked to get
through this as well.
Speaker 4 (05:32):
I was wondering what's the difference between an addiction and
a bad habit.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
An addiction, I don't have the actual definition right in
front of me, but it is addiction is more of
something that when you are more out of control, when
your behavior is known to be a detrimental to yourself,
your soul, or to others. And you do it anyway
and you don't have the ability to stop on your own,
(06:04):
there needs to be some type of additional guidance or
intervention or direction to help doing that and other reliefs.
Most of bad habits or consult compulsions. Often willpower can
overcome those, you know, sometimes just additional prayer can overcome those.
But with an addiction, there's more that's involved. It's deeper
(06:29):
on that, and that happens way too often, especially in
this area.
Speaker 4 (06:35):
See I guess when I think about a bad habit,
like the sin is a bad habit, I mean in
the or stimistic sense of habit, that's something which actually
characterizes somebody after it's a certain time.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
You build up a habit over time.
Speaker 4 (06:52):
I just wonder if we're talking out so much about
differences in kind, but differences in degree, that the more
indulges in a vicious activity, the more one becomes enslaved
to it.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
And you go ahead, yeah, I think that is a
factor to it. Not everyone who indulges extensively in a
behavior or sinful behavior is necessarily addicted. The addiction part
of it becomes more so when it becomes naturally escalating.
(07:29):
And part of that, like especially with pornography or sex addiction,
it escalates because of the usual behavior or the current
behavior and expression does not satisfy the need any longer.
Part of that with addiction, when I talked about one
of the factors that need to be involved is the
chemical part of it. And then we're talking about brain chemistry,
(07:51):
and primarily it's a dopamine, which is the biggest part
of it. And this is something that God designed us
as to understand or to crave certain desires behaviors. You know,
nowhere food is when we need it to. You want
to be with our partners, you know, be intimate with
our partners, and those kinds of things, having the the
(08:11):
the craving desire with that, but with an addiction, especially
with pornography, because a lot of things aren't met properly,
the dopamine overfloods the blank the brain receptors begin to
shut down, so the experience is not as it was
to begin with. So the pleasure that is sought needs
more more often, more more in depth, more risky, more
(08:35):
intense type of behavior or experience to satisfy the craving
that's trying to be fulfilled, and that escalation and growth
is where clinically, I guess it becomes more of an
addiction in that way. Many things, you know, the things
you know, smoking and alcohol and other things can be
(08:56):
that way as well. Video games, eating and so forth
can all be that way as well, so that that's
kind of where it goes. And often there are some
studies that show that pornography is as addictive as heroin
and cocaine. So with that in mind, it's not necessarily
(09:16):
something that you gradually indulge more and more in become
addicted to. It can become addictive very quickly, especially in
younger minds because of the way their brain works, it
can become addicted and very quickly.
Speaker 4 (09:32):
Do you think it's right to say that even though
it's voluntary to first opened up, to say, are our
protographic magazine to look at it? There's that voluntary aspect
to it. There's an aspect of an addiction which is
not voluntary.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
Right right. A lot of addictions, or the nature of
an addiction is there's a craving that you don't have
control of yourself so much, and that's where there needs
to be other avenues to head that off, to to
redirect yourself, which is where we talk about boundaries and
(10:10):
in our book and in what we educate, to redirect
yourself or change your thoughts or behavior and actions before
you get to the point to where in your chemistry
and your brain or whatever in your your attraction for
that particular moment in experience, it hasn't escalated to the
point to where as I say, the train has left
(10:31):
the station, you can't. It's very hard to make a
U turn with a train, so you stop it from leaving,
but you need to recognize when it's about to leave,
and that's part of what we train.
Speaker 5 (10:43):
Yeah, I'm impressed by how you use science and modern
psychology to explore. Of course, pornography has been around since
ancient times, addiction has been around since ancient times, but
I understand our understanding of them is you know, modern.
I Nevertheless, it's often said that there is some kind
(11:05):
of male crisis, you know, in recent decades, which has
made these problems perhaps more serious socially, And I'm wondering
whether some people also would connect these with the rise
of feminism, with the empowerment of women resulting in a
(11:29):
kind of crisis of male identity and so on. I
don't know whether you know you think this is correct
or not, whether such a thing is happening, but could
you maybe comment on these developments, or at least alleged developments.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
Yeah, the idea of feminism contributing to this and so forth,
it probably could be a factor to that, but it's
not really something that I've I really investigated that much
because we've we've I think we've really looked at what
the initial areas are. There's a lot of factors, a
lot of moving targets so to speak, that can always
(12:06):
influence a person to you know, desire sexuality or desire
a different craving of sexuality. And feminism, you know, could
be part of it. But the real innate part of
it is that we are sexual beings and we are
created as such, are designed by God is to co create,
(12:28):
co create life with him, and for that reason, he
makes the experience addictive with our spouses. And it's supposed
to be because that generates life and expands the kingdom,
you know, and the family and on and on, and
then the enemy perverts it into something that's about ourselves
(12:48):
rather than about the bigger hole, and there's just numerous
ways that are always evolving on how to make that
something that's more of a selfish act and about what
we're doing. And one of the things that I have
in the book that I always tend to say as
a perspective, and it's a reason by some of the
(13:09):
activities that we provide, is God created us to be
a gift of self. We are supposed to empty ourselves
to each other. Hence, when you're with your spouse, you
empty yourselves to each other. And when you do that
completely and God wills it, a third person's created you,
much like the Trinity. Okay, Pornography is a gift to self.
(13:32):
It's a very selfish act. So anything that the enemy
can do to create this to be something that's for
ourselves a selfish act. That's where we get. But the
pleasure of it is so intense because it's created that way.
We get hung into that and it works very well
as an escape, a masking mechanism, a medication you know,
(13:55):
as with any you know, addiction or a type of
type of type of experience that then plays on our woundedness,
our unhappiness, and we don't want to experience. We're not
designed to experience being unhappy or feeling worthless and dislike ourselves,
and you know, so forth, so we need to we
need to mask that. And this is a perfect thing
(14:17):
to do this because it's extremely pleasurable.
Speaker 5 (14:20):
So I guess one symptom or aspect of that unhealthy
attitude is what's known as the objectification of women, treating
women as objects for one's own pleasure rather than someone
to whom you give yourself. But you know, that is
from a different perspective, is sometimes seen as one of
(14:41):
the achievements of feminism, that that women were always uh,
you know, objecting to being treated as objects.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Now that again, that's.
Speaker 5 (14:49):
That's coming from a different, uh sort of social and
even political perspective. But it does seem that that that
has been there has been some change an attitude culturally
in men's attitude towards women because of feminism. I guess
what you're suggesting, though, is that going deeper, this is
(15:10):
really a kind of moral problem where there's a basic
error and what used to be very common male attitudes
and which you know, fortunately have been changing in some sectors.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
Right, I think, I think in a way with the
feminism perspective, while they they don't want to be looked
at as objects, but then for empowerment of women, they
will sell the idea of being dressing immodestly or even
taking part in, you know, the production of pornography and
(15:48):
so forth to be an empowerment of women. This is
women's power to do this. I have the right to
do it. It's like you're shooting yourselves in the foot,
you know, so to speak. You're trying to do something,
but you're really creating the opposite effect, creating yourself as
an object by trying not to be an object.
Speaker 5 (16:06):
There was even an article recently, either the Economist or
the Wall Street Journal that the production of video pornography
has become the sort of cottage industry by which you know,
many many people are making you know, money, and then
so called gig economy. I mean, that's really a socially
disturbing phenomenon.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
If it's it is, it is, it's become so why
it's not so much of it's not done in studios
per se anymore. It's it's done you know, in the home,
and then they upload the videos and and they don't
really understand what they're doing, and that's where so much
of the traffic is trafficking is coming into They're they're
either coercing or secretly recording acts and you know, with
(16:52):
different content and they upload them and so forth. So
that's really become a big problem, and it's it's next
to impossible to control, and the extra possible to control,
you know, age control as well.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
So I have read that pornography now and I mean
it's I shouldn't say, I mean it's obvious with the
Internet and with all the video things you've just been
talking about, but that pornography is a lot more powerful
now than it was, say when I was young. I'm
I'm in my seventies now, and when I was young,
(17:26):
it was it was there were photographic magazines and that's
about it. And you know that most people didn't go
didn't know how maybe to find photographic movies or or
where to find it. But uh, do you think that
the the rise in the availability of really intense pornography
(17:51):
has contributed to something which I read a distinction about
once between the desire for a pornography is a substitute
for a woman, or desire for pornography when one is
unable to have access to a woman for whatever reason,
that there's a change in this.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
That can always be a part of it. And we're
looking at my own, my own addictive history. It started
as pornography, but then in myself it escalated to where
I the images weren't enough and I began to reach
out into like massage parlors and prostitution and those kinds
of things.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
But it's the.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Illusion of being wanted and loved is what's really being
craved at the depth. So even in my case, I
was married, but because of other connection issues that were
both mine and and my spouse's, I still wasn't receiving
what I needed. And because I was already in the
selfish mindset of being in pornography since I was, you know,
(19:00):
years old or whatever, it was still something I was seeking,
desperately seeking to be wanted and loved, and it was
it went to that personal touch type behavior, which is
why that has exploded as well. And it's common that
pornography escalates to that, and part of the I think
(19:20):
part of the evidence of that is that when you
look at massage parlors, there are statistically over ten thousand
illicit massage parlors nationwide, and by illicit means I mean
like full whorehouses and there I mean ten thousand of them.
This is a supply and demand issue. It's not like
(19:42):
somebody wakes up one morning, never looked at pornography, left,
never looked at a magazine whatever, and says, oh, I
think I'm going to go to a massage parlor and
get massage and get laid. That doesn't know. This is
something that escalates and grows. So you can see the
demand for that of these massage parlors. Just that alone
(20:02):
has a market because of the growth of pornography, and
then the statistics that there's over a million prostitutes in
the United States through multiple avenues to seek them out
and so forth. Again, it's a market. It's there. You know,
if there wasn't a demand for it, then there wouldn't
be a market.
Speaker 5 (20:23):
Another thing that impresses me about your book is that
you know, it is very much I mean, it looks
like it's a very useful manual, but it also is
very deeply rooted in Catholic teaching. However, it seems that
it's it's therefore addressed really to committed Catholics. I mean
even that the idea of purity is something that's going
(20:43):
to appeal to the committed Catholic. A lot of Catholics today,
or at least people who are, as they say, raised Catholic,
would would question whether that's really necessary, you know, they
they might question what the church can teach about sex
when the church is led by you know, old celibate men.
They would say, well, why not go to secular psychologists?
(21:05):
Doesn't doesn't secular psychology suffice to address this problem? How
would you respond to that objection?
Speaker 3 (21:12):
Well, isn't sex something that's created by God for the
purpose of co creating life with him? It's all about that.
I mean, the the the essence of the universe. The
creation of the universe is by co creating life. Mankind
(21:33):
is based on sex. Without sex, we don't exist, and
mankind is created by God. So all all of it
really is God. And when you get into you know,
basic psychology, too often they try to take God out
of the picture. And if we've seen in so much
of society today, in the government and so forth, in schools,
you take God out of the picture, things stop working.
(21:54):
So addressing sex by itself, if sex is not something
that is in and of itself for yourself, but it's
for others, and it's for procreating life. It's for emptying
yourself to another. Where's the psychology in that part of it?
It's about the aspect of love and being loved and
(22:19):
you know, wanted and so forth, and that's who God
created us to be. And that's where the idea of
sexual relations with a spouse is. And it's the joining
and union of one. So if psychology is going to
enter the picture and promote only union between a man
and a woman, as this is what this is supposed
(22:39):
to be designed for, what's their basis of the purpose
of being only between a man and a woman. If
it's not. If you take religion out of it and
take the Bible out of it, then why is it
between a man and a woman? You know, things just
start falling apart when you take take God in scripture
and the Bible out of it.
Speaker 4 (23:01):
Would how would you counsel parents, amazing sons and maybe
daughters too, to help them guard against help at least
help their children guard against the threat of phnography.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
Several different things that they need to be done on
one necessary thing, but it's often left as the only
thing is having filters on devices, monitoring their activities and
so forth. Too often though, parents will look at that
and say, well, I've got filters on my kids devices
and on the TVs and stuff, so I'm good. Well
that's about ten percent of the answer. What really needs
(23:43):
to be happening is the conversation and relationship with the
parents to the children. There needs to be an awareness
of the parents of how they're impacting their children and
understanding what's really going on behind the addiction or behind
the desire and the use. You know of this precisely
(24:04):
for that reason, Road to Purity is actually creating a
program called Restoring the Family, which is designed to work
with families and children in this area, and a big
part of this is training and healing the parents. Virtually,
one of the countless clients that I've dealt with counsel interviewed, coached,
and whatever. When you dig down to it, the ultimate
(24:28):
core reason of them being addicted or expending into this
behavior is trying to mask or cope with an identity
that is of something like I'm not good enough, I'm
not worthy, I'm not wanted, I'm not loved. All of
that where did that come from? Where did that start?
Ninety nine percent of the time it's with their parents,
(24:51):
and it's virtually never anything malicious. Now, yes, there is
true abuse and things that happen, but most of the
time it's not anything malicious. It's just ignorance of parents,
simple things such as you know, the old saying is
children are meant to be seen and not heard. Well,
that in and of itself will tell a child that
(25:14):
what you have to say doesn't matter, we don't want
to hear from you. That diminishes their value and want,
you know, as a person. And there are so many
different things that a parent does unintentionally of course, that
makes a child not recognize and not feel affirmed, understood, loved,
(25:35):
you know, and whatnot. And it's educating and learning that
And most of the time it's because the parents themselves
have their own feelings of unworthiness and wanted and they
respond out of reaction to their own woundedness, which then
perpetuates to the kids and they learn, you know, the
same thing out of either modeling what their parents did
(25:58):
or open to receive what they think their parents meant,
and so forth. So the child ends up wounded and
then when they I'm not happy with their identity and
who they are, and they get exposed to something that's
extremely pleasurable or representative of a love, they latch onto it.
(26:19):
And I speak from the same kind of idea. What started,
you know, with myself as well? I remember I did
not feel connected with my mother for whatever reason. Can't
identify something she did to cause that, but I just
didn't have that feeling. It didn't feel wanted and loved
and accepted and known whatever. Didn't know that until later
(26:42):
doing the work many decades later. But for myself, in
like about first or second grade, I created an imaginary
childhood freemale friend, somebody that I could, you know, have
experience or thoughts of being with some you know person too.
I could play with it, wanted to be with me,
and you know, so forth to fulfill that emptiness that
(27:03):
I was experiencing but didn't know at the time. Of course,
as puberty came, it became sexual and turned under that,
and it wasn't until much later in life that I realized, oh,
this is really a problem. This is distracting me and
distracting me from true intimacy as God designed. I'm intimate
with this person, that's an imagination. Well, I created this
(27:27):
thing to fulfill the emptiness that I had and didn't
really know that was what it was until it was.
I worked through some other processes and with some good
counselors and so forth to to discover that. And we'll
go through that. But that's what happens when there's just
that feeling that's there. And I think a parents can
be more conscious of what it is that they talk
(27:49):
to their kids about, involving their kids in their feelings
and so forth. Express you talk about sexuality in inappropriate
terms of different age, but at the same time be aware,
make the kids aware that they can always come to
them and talk to them about anything, no matter what,
whether it's just you know, oh, Johnny said, brought this
(28:10):
at the you know, a third grade He had had
his cell phone out or something and he showed us
this stuff, or this teacher touched me in a bad way,
or any of those things. They need to be able
to share this and be okay with that and and
so forth, not have to keep it hidden. And in
those efforts, the ideal of inappropriate images that they run
(28:32):
into aren't quite so intriguing or quite so fresh and
new and something they've never heard of in the experience
of because they've already gotten some teaching on it, and
they've already not feeling so needy into something external to
make them, you know, feel whole, so to speak. So
(28:54):
it's a whole whole process to do, and we're working
on teaching that you know as well in another up
coming program. More or less trying to prevent the issue
rather than fix the issue.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
We talk about boys of pornography.
Speaker 4 (29:09):
I remember the seventies there was an attempt at a
protographic magazine for women, Playgirl. I don't think it didn't survive.
Pay Yeah, anyway is women don't seem to have the
same proclivity to cite looking at men like men women.
But is there a problem with pornography.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
With women, Yeah, there's a growing problem. It's not as
much as men. There the flavor, if you will, is
different if you really, if you really look at it.
The giant industry of romance novels is really pornography. The
(29:52):
scenes and descriptions and stories that are depicted. While there
may not be images, their description for the physical intimacy
and the connectedness and the wantedness with that that ends
up in a sexual relation that is also pornography in
that way for women. Now women have some of it
(30:12):
because of the maybe some of the women's movement and
so forth, have grown to want, you know, look at more,
and some of it's begun because if they want to
be more connected with their their their men that they're with.
I've seen stories of young girls, you know, fourteen year
old girls who looks at pornography so she can learn
(30:33):
what her boyfriend wants. And you know, I can't even list,
you know, the problems that are that are with that
to begin with, you know, the whole thing. But that's
what's happening as well on that side of things. So
and the there are more and more pornographic videos being
(30:54):
created that have more of a softer intimate side to
him for the women. And I think that's something that
back in the day. Playgirl didn't really understand that depth
of it at that time, which is why it failed.
But today, you know, they figured it out.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Now. A minute ago, you were talking about your own
experience and the relationship where the flaws in your relationship
with your mother. But I'm wondering, I mean, in the
average adolescent, it looks at pornography. How much of this
is just old fashioned lust and how much of it
(31:36):
is it has a root in some psychological need and uh,
well I will follow up question for that too, but
to go ahead and answer address this one first place.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
I think all of it starts with lust because of
the craving to be with, you know, someone of the
opposite sex in that way. But then when that is experienced,
the the fulfillment of another other another area, another missing
part of psychological part, the woundedness or whatever, begins to infiltrate,
(32:13):
as well as the biological implications of it, with the
addictive part of it, the dope mean, and so forth
through the experience of it, the high that you get.
So I think it starts that way, but it can
quickly move to the other part of it.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
And that's where sometimes I think if the if the
the children's understanding of what they're looking at immediately and
and have a proper idea of sexuality there more immediately
will see it and be maybe turned off by the
idea that, oh, this is not what this is supposed
this is not what God created, this is not what
(32:50):
this is supposed to be. Because they were taught. So
it's it's I think I liken it too, And a
thought of witnessing a car accident where a person flies
out of the vehicle, you should be appalled by that
and just go, oh, this is horrible. This I can't
see that. You know, this is something I don't want
(33:11):
to be looking at. Where sure there's there's a class,
not a class, but there's you know a group of
people who watch these type of videos and stuff and
get entertainment from them, you know, from other people. Well,
that should be something if taught morally and ethically. You
see that and go, now, this is horrible. This is
you know, somebody's got to pray for these people. What
(33:31):
happened to this person. The same thing, when you get
an experience with pornography, you will see something and say
this is not We're not supposed to see this, This
is not the catechism, this is not what God designed,
you know, and be more or less turned off by it.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
I would think that one would have to have a
be thoroughly convinced of the truth of the Catholic faith
and of the possibility, frankly of hell in order to
if you're a young and married guy too and you're
in front of phiography. Sure you can turn away from it.
(34:13):
You can remind yourself, as you just said, that this
is not what God created sex for. And if I
look at this, I'm I'm starting in the room to hell. Sure,
but in Catholic families today, it strikes me that there's
not maybe a robust awareness of this as there's not
(34:33):
one of the worst men. Yeah, one of the worst
places that I actually see young women dressed in modestly
as a mass. It's very strict.
Speaker 3 (34:44):
Unfortunately, there's there's just a lot of The best I
could say is ignorance, you know of this. Chastity and
modesty just are not part of today's world, whether they
go to mass or not.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
You know, and there and it's all marketed with that
in mind.
Speaker 4 (35:06):
I mean, the manufacturers of clothing know exactly what they're
doing in their designs, right, they get I used to
think when I was younger at them, Well these girls
are they you know there's sluts.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
I don't think they are.
Speaker 4 (35:19):
I think they just they don't necessarily understand what they're
doing all the time.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
I think some of it they don't understand, but some
of it too is did they get positive attention when
they dress that way, which then points to the same problem,
the same problem as everything else, is they're not getting
the love and attention. They don't feel wanted, they don't
feel loved, they don't really feel respected, they don't feel
the dignity at home already, so they crave it. And
(35:48):
when they get it outside and they if you discover
the oh, if I you know, dressing tighter clothing or
more revealing or whatever, I like the attention I get,
you know what, not realizing not really going through their
head and realizing, well, I'm getting the attention as an object,
as a thing they want to play with me, not
because they want my heart to understand who I am.
(36:12):
That that that escapes the picture. But nonetheless, hey, attention
is been Some attention, even is the wrong attention is
better than no attention, right, So that's where we got
to fix it.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
When somebody comes to you a male or counseling, do
you assume that there is a psychological aspect or could
you say to him, listen, you you're you're you know,
having a lust better confession and necessary better confession every
week until this is uh taking care of it? Or
(36:49):
do you or do you assume that they have some
kind of a psychological lack that they are unaware of.
Speaker 3 (36:56):
I always started, I always listen to what they tell me,
what they're what their history is, and what's going on.
Then I start digging into their their history in childhood
and so forth, and looking at things. Then I will
make statements based on can you talk about this? Is it?
Do you feel this way? Or you know and so forth.
Bottom line is, nine percent of the time, by the
(37:22):
time I talk to somebody, especially by the time they're
an adult and they're they're far enough along that they
need to reach out for help, there's something going on underneath.
There is As I always say, porn is not about porn,
It's about something deeper. What is the deeper thing that
it's about? And whenever I begin talking to somebody and
(37:46):
quiz them talk go into different details and hear their
stories and histories and so forth, I always have in
the back of my mind I'm looking for what is
their pain? What is it that they are trying to
cover or satisfy that they're missing, And that's what this
soothes or satisfies. And once we find that and dig
(38:08):
into that, it's often more easily more easily able to
redirect or come up with a plan of where to
go from there. And even sometimes with the acts of lust.
I have talked a lot of guys would just say, oh,
I just have a lust problem. I don't look at
porn anymore. I just just lust. Well, you're still looking
(38:30):
for something. And in the Winning the Battle, there's a
chapter in there that's it's a lust exercise, and it's
something that is created to guide a guy through about
lust and what they're looking for and why they're lusting.
And it's something that's it's really a process again about
(38:54):
feeling love and connected with Christ and feeling that and
feeling that they have what they need, that they're fulfilled,
that they're not looking for something.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
Well, you know, as you know, when our first parents sinned,
the integrity of our human nature was broken, so that
the various appetites began to go off on their own
and to seek their own fulfillment or pleasure without reference
to the good of the whole. And this is very
(39:25):
clearly shown, for example, in food, where people can eat
so much that they actually injure their body and they
sometimes have difficulty even getting around because they're focusing on
this one particular craving, which is food. And of course
(39:45):
the same thing is true with sex, not exactly the same,
but very similar actually. But I don't know. To me,
it seems maybe because of my age or whatever, but
it seems to me that all the a lot of
this is explicable simply by the fact that our desire
for sexual pleasure has become disconnected with our reason and
(40:10):
is going off on his own to seek pleasure, the
pleasure kind of pleasure that, as you say, God intended
us to wart. But nonetheless he intended us in a
certain context, just like he intended us on eating food
and enjoying eating food, but only to the extent that
we're nourishing our body, or at least not hurting our body.
Speaker 3 (40:33):
Right, And I think they're very they're very similar when
when you approach either either behavior. The ultimate process is
that we go through in our books and our teaching
work both ways. When a person is over eating to
that extent where they're injuring their bodies, they're not eating
(40:53):
because they're hungry, unless there's some type of other, you know, uh,
disorder in their hormones or something like that. But that's
that's that's more much more rare. They're not eating because
they're hungry. The question is what are they feeding. They're
feeding the pain. They get an enjoyment from the food.
They get an enjoyment from the fulfilled, the fullness that
they received. They want to maintain filled fullness usually to
(41:20):
keep that buffer of the outside world, the outside pain.
The more that they eat, the more full that they need,
the more protected that they feel, and the more satisfied
that they are internally, which results in the food. So again,
what are they feeding. It's this pain that's inside. And
I guess an exhibition of this is with our programs.
(41:44):
Primary we are restoring God's Foundation is one of the
programs we had for for years before this. We have
thousands of members in and winning the Battle is kind
of born out of that. And I have countless countless
guys will come to me and say, you know, I
started this program to get a hold of my porn habit.
This program is actually changing who I am, and my
(42:06):
porn is going away on its own. And that's the point.
That's what we're trying to do. It's not about just
learning to curb your behaviors, it's learning to fulfill what's
really going on underneath. So the need isn't there, or
it's redimaghed to an amount that you can control it.
(42:28):
And the same thing with lost.
Speaker 4 (42:29):
It sounds like what you're saying is something similar. I's
told by my personal treatment, but by psychologists or psychiatrists.
I interviewed for newspaper years ago. He was a Catholic,
and he was pretty well thought of it. He thought
that the problem most mental illness was it's not all illness,
it's beyondest to merror and chemical problems is a lack
(42:52):
of a sense what he called filiation, namely understanding ourselves
in relationship that God is our father. So, Tom, you
mentioned we lost in the fall, we lost our integrity.
I think what theend suggests here pret me if I'm wrong,
is that in order to overcome anything like an addiction
(43:15):
or sin, we have to recreate that integrity that we're
because what we're looking for is joy. We're looking for
the good, and that can only be ultimately found in
God and having a proper relationship with God. So the
actual cure for all all our ills is actually that.
But you know, sometimes the help of psychological science is
just like in order to heal our body and have
(43:37):
the integrity to buy that we need to help the
terms of medical sciences. But what we're looking for is that.
And so what your process is, all that you're talking
about is that we're it's a process of restoring integrity,
which ultimately is rooted in God.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
Right. The ideal is one increased in the holiness. But
for example, I could see how I could fall into
these any of these sins if I didn't carefully watch
myself and remind myself frankly of hell from time to
time as necessary. And uh, I don't think that it's
(44:17):
because of some kind of psychological lack that I attempted.
I think it's because I'm a falling in me and
I get like the rest of us. And and but
but you know, if if you no, I agree, if
you have a habit, it would be harder to do
(44:37):
to do this. But if you if you simply remind yourself,
you've got to stay in the state of grace. Uh
you can you know what you can to raist and
fight these things.
Speaker 3 (44:51):
If you're Yeah, if you're not in a habit or
compulsion or addiction, it is easier to to fight these things.
I would also ask ask you, is your your motivate,
your motivation or your strength to not fall into a
lust or or these kind of stands. Is it due
(45:13):
to the fear of hell or the love of God?
Speaker 2 (45:18):
Well? Both, I mean, but I'm not ashamed of saying
that a lot of it is fear of hell, because
I won't claim but I'm I'm really advanced spiritually, but
I don't see anything wrong with that, with with with
having that kind of fear if necessary. If necessary, I
don't say I go around with it all the time,
but I'm not, but I don't. I think it's I mean,
(45:40):
I think that the classical spiritual tradition of the Church has
always said that the fear of hell can be salutary.
I'm not saying it's the highest kind of spiritual level,
and it isn't, but nonetheless it can be quite salutary
and in times of intense temptation, very.
Speaker 3 (45:59):
Helpful, right. I mean, it can be a motivator. And
I do know that with individuals that are are struggling
with beating this, that is the deterrent. That is not
so much the deterrent, it's it's listening to the voice
the enemy in their head. You're saying, oh, just okay
(46:20):
to one more time, just go to confashion. It's no
big deal. Just just you know, go ahead and indulge
yourself and go to confession. You get all, you know,
you get it all, reset and we're good. Don't worry
about it. And they listen to that lie and anyway, no, yeah,
go ahead.
Speaker 2 (46:37):
One thing that comes.
Speaker 5 (46:38):
Through from your book is the falsehood you know, involved
in addiction and pornography. There's always a certain deception or
self deception. Well, you know, you can certainly think of
you know, the Father of Lies as being behind this,
but I would I think that culturally, one problem is
(46:59):
is that in our society, many people are becoming divorced
from reality, you know. And and of course the uh
one of the effects of video and the internet and
and uh, you know, the proliferation of different means of
communication can also get us used to not living truthfully,
(47:21):
living living with falsehood. One of the arguments that used
to come up, you know, when when there were attempts
to legislate against pornography, was that it was a form
of art or that, and then people became confused and
whether there is a distinction between art and pornography, and
(47:41):
yet I think that pornography is in all cases a
form of kitsch, a kind of false art, an art
which is not based on the unity of truth and beauty,
but on a kind of falsehood. And it seems to
me that that's one approach that could be useful and
important to say that if you want to live truthfully,
(48:03):
you have to avoid these things.
Speaker 3 (48:06):
Were absolutely, I mean, one of the things I one
of the definitions I have for pornography is is it
something that is designed to incite lust? So, yeah, a
woman dressed fully clothed, but is designed to incite lust
by the way she's outfitted, it could be pornography.
Speaker 2 (48:26):
Mm hm.
Speaker 3 (48:28):
So, and it's it's it's looking at the intent of
the artist, you know, for that and that's why you know,
the Sistine Chapel has nudes on it, but it's not
it's intent for for beauty and human form. It's not
intent to incite lust, so therefore it's not pornography. And
that's kind of the difference.
Speaker 2 (48:57):
M Well, are some of the what are some of
the specific steps that you recommend to your clients that
you have in your book Winning the Battle that would
enable you to address not just pornography addiction, but alcoholism,
drugs or reading.
Speaker 3 (49:20):
Yeah, one of the primary things that we look at
is setting boundaries, and it's understanding boundaries and understanding your
behavior and so forth. And this is this is part
of the behavioral part of the solution. And whereas so
many of the you know, my Recovery, the other groups
and stuff that I've been into, they would define a
(49:43):
boundary is actually looking at pornography at and acting out.
I define that as a primary boundary. I went and
stepped before that and made it like a secondary boundary.
And secondary boundaries are anything that kind of begins to
go down that road. So protecting yourself, like you don't
take your phone into the bathroom because it's too easy
(50:05):
of an opportunity for those to struggle with that. If
your situation is that, you know, you have your computer
in an a private office in the home, and you
tend to go and check your email after everybody else
has gone to bed, and one out of three times
you get onto YouTube and you start looking at certain
(50:26):
types of you know, suggestive pictures, and then you're looking
at cheerleaders and then you oh, what's my old girlfriend
doing on Facebook ten years ago, and then you know,
on and on and on, and then one out of
three times you end up on looking at porn. Well,
one of your secondary boundaries is don't look go to
the computer after everybody's going to bed, or move it
(50:47):
to where it's in more of a public area or
something like that. Protecting what you consume. As as far
as entertainment, there's way too much you know, TV and
movies out there that have sexual content in them, not
even you know, not poorn, but just to suggestive sexual
content and it can start a person thinking and imagining
(51:12):
depending on the person, and that's something that has to
be watched. Be careful of not watching something like that.
So it's it's setting boundaries to where you don't behave
in certain certain things. Like for myself, for example, my
wife likes watching Dancing with the Stars. Well, you know,
that's a popular TV show. Who cares, you know, it's
(51:33):
no big deal, just dancing. For me, the outfits and
the prerogative movements of the women and the dancing is triggering.
I am become aware of that. I know myself, and
I say, okay, you record that, you watch it later.
I'm not gonna watch it with you. I'm just not
gonna do that, okay. So those kinds of situations you
(51:53):
have to decide which is which is a potential introduction
to the you know, the path to sin for you.
So and everybody is separate on those individually. But that's
that's a behavioral part from a more of a spiritual part.
And which is also behavioral too, is the idea I
(52:15):
mentioned before of being a gift of self. One of
the activities we suggest is everybody to be a gift
of self somehow, someday, some somehow, some way every day,
whether it's doing the dishes for your spouse, which you
so you don't normally do that, opening a door for
a stranger, buying the coffee for the person behind you
in line, doing something that is a gift of consciously,
(52:38):
a gift of self, getting outside of yourself to do
something for somebody else. Because as I said, porn is
a gift to self. You cannot give and take at
the same time. It's it's in scripture a kingdom divide.
It cannot stand. You can't give and take simultaneously. So
if you begin to retrain your brain into giving instead
of taking, that's one of me the aspects that contribute
(53:01):
to changing the way you behave and then being honest
with yourself on what is underneath the realism or the
truth of what you're doing. What are you really looking for?
Is the question that you can ask. You can even
you know, go to adoration before Jesus and said, Jesus,
(53:22):
when I look at pornography, what am I really looking for?
Because it's not the pornography? What am I really looking for?
And set for ten to fifteen minutes and be quiet
and listen. He'll tell you and find the depth of.
Speaker 2 (53:35):
It the secondary boundaries that you mentioned, so like the
same as what the church calls of what the new
occasions of sin.
Speaker 3 (53:45):
It does that too, Yeah, that's part of it. Yeah,
anything that works with anything.
Speaker 2 (53:51):
Right, any person, place or occasion that is for an
individual temptation.
Speaker 3 (53:58):
You're an alcoholic, you don't go into a bar and
you don't even take a sip of a of a
beer at a party. You just don't do it in
the way of a porn addict where they may, like
I said, look at suggestive videos on YouTube or Instagram
or pictures or something like that that begins a dope,
(54:18):
mean drip kind of thing to where it starts the craving.
I liken it to an alcoholic just dipping their finger
into a shot glass shot of whiskey or whatever it
is and just looking it. It's just a little I mean,
they're not getting drunk, it's just a little taste. But
what's that due to them? It starts the process. And
(54:39):
that's where you got to back up before that. You
can't even get you can't even let that happen to you.
And so much of the what we consume, you know,
entertainment wise, is the problem. And we're we're trained to
be accept that as entertainment and then look at it
and go, well, I can handle that, that's not such
(55:01):
a big deal. And I propose the question shouldn't be
can you handle it?
Speaker 2 (55:05):
It?
Speaker 3 (55:06):
Should you handle it?
Speaker 2 (55:09):
It?
Speaker 3 (55:09):
Is this something that's edifying and morally correct to watch
to begin with? Just because I can handle it? No,
I don't need it.
Speaker 2 (55:19):
I think people are often fooling themselves when they think
they can handle something. Yeah, and there really having a
low level of lusting.
Speaker 3 (55:29):
Right right, And it wasn't too long ago that you know,
I was in the same boat, but it's it's changed,
it's really it's different. What I really need to point
out is it's is as you said before, it's the
relationship with with God, with Christ, with our blessed Mother,
(55:49):
all of it.
Speaker 2 (55:50):
It is.
Speaker 3 (55:51):
It is this aspect of having perfect love that we
can't get from our you know, we we grow up
looking for perfect love from imper beings and it's just
not going to happen. And until we can work through
that and and be introduced to get it properly, there's
more problems than not.
Speaker 2 (56:15):
Now you're a book winning the battle. Where can people
get that book?
Speaker 3 (56:20):
You can get through our website roadipurity dot com. Uh,
there's a tab called store takes you to our store,
and we have numerous different types of items and stuff there,
you know, spiritual items and recovery products and so forth.
But the books icon category is one of those in there.
And there's also an option in there to where you
can get a kit for small groups, so perishes, men's groups,
(56:43):
so forth. They get a very inexpensively get a kit
with a facilitator. Manual teaches you how to run a group,
provides questions to lead a group with, uh, you know,
checking rounds, those kinds of things and lead you through
all of that, the training and whatnot. So it works
both ways.
Speaker 2 (57:04):
So I've road to Purity dot com. Yep, yeah, okay, okay,
Do you anyone have any final commisser questions?
Speaker 5 (57:14):
No?
Speaker 2 (57:16):
Then would you like to add anything of the end
to your message?
Speaker 3 (57:25):
I mean I would say that I with what we've experienced,
what we've done. I was addicted for over thirty years,
and I gave you some of what I have been
involved in, and I've been recovery for over fifteen and
the truth of what it really takes to get out
of it is the Catholic Church, the Sacraments, confession, the Eucharist, adoration,
being a presence of Christ, having our Blessed Mother be
(57:49):
at our side while we're going through this. We have
we have more powerful devices and tools and askedffects of
this truth than any other religion. And I said, we
need to take advantage of it, and we show you
how to do that. And I mean, I've gotten pretty
far in myself and I'm out. It's it's freedom as possible.
(58:15):
You can get through this, and if you're stuck, you
can get to our website and there's places you can
make a free consultation with me. If you want, I'll
help you get started.
Speaker 2 (58:25):
Very good. Well, thank you very much, thank you. Yeah.
Being our guest today, I'm sorry, thank you for having me.
I just said, thank you. Let's end up with a
heill marriage to our pleasant lady, the spirit him Mary,
full of grace. The Lord is with the blessed are
the women unless it is the fruit of the womb
Jesus only married Mother of God. Very for us sinners
(58:49):
now at all of our death an mother, so whisper.
Speaker 3 (58:54):
Yeah, thank you very much, Thank you appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (59:00):
Hello, God's beloved. I'm Annabel Moseley, author, professor of theology
and host of then Sings My Soul and Destination Sainthood
on WCAT Radio. I invite you to listen in and
find inspiration along this sacred journey. We're traveling together to
make our lives a masterpiece and, with God's grace, become saints.
(59:23):
Join me Annabel Moseley for then Sings My Soul and
Destination Sainthood on WCAT Radio. God bless you. Remember you're
never alone. God is always with you.
Speaker 2 (59:42):
Thank you for listening to a production of WCAT Radio.
Please join us in our mission of evangelization, and don't
forget Love lifts up when knowledge takes flight.
You're listening to w c AT radio, your home for
authentic Catholic programming.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Welcome to the Open Door. Your hosts Thomas Stork and
co hosts Christophersinder and andrews Rakowski. Our guest today is
Dan Augst who talk about his book Winning the Battle
for Purity. Let's begin, as we do, with our prayer
the name of Father Son Oi Spirit, immen, Come, Holy Spirit,
(00:26):
Fill the hearts of your faithful and kindle in them
the fire of your love. Send forth your Spirit, and
they shall be created, and you shall renew the face
of the earth. Let us pray, Oh God, who by
the light of the Holy Spirit, it instruck the hearts
of the faithful, gant that by the same Holy Spirit
we have be truly wise ever enjoy his consolations to
Christ our Lord. Amen, Father, so Holy Spirit. Amen. Well,
(00:52):
thank you very much Dan for being our guest today.
Uh uh, the author of the book Winning the Battle
for Actual Purity. And then we could start off that
you could summarize what your book is about for our listeners.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Sure, the book is is actually a more recent newer
version culminated of years of other books and programs and
products that we do semming from ultimately my own recovery
and over the past, you know, many years. It is
a book designed to guide a person really kind of
(01:32):
hold their hand through discovering a process for recovery in
pornography addiction, sex addiction, and it really works with most
any addictions because of the depth of it. Guide you
through the steps of understanding where to get started, deciding boundaries,
understanding yourself, looking at woundedness, healing those kinds of things.
(01:58):
And it has a four two day plan of an
activity and a tracker day to day that you can
go through with that. So there's nineteen chapters in it.
It's a little over one hundred pages, and it's very
easy to follow read. It's used in small groups individually,
(02:19):
and we're putting it online. There's an audio version somewhere
too that we're getting put up.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Okay, this is your problem. We're not hearing you speaking.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
What's Oh? Can you hear me?
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Now? Yeah? We hear now? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (02:44):
Okay. Did you did you hear what I was when
I talked about the book or did you miss that?
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Just at the very end we couldn't hear it?
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Oh? Okay, no, we say what the book at the
end of it, it goes through all of the other
processes and woundedness and helping a person heal and so forth.
And there's also a guide at the end, kind of
a daily action planner for forty two days to get
(03:18):
a person started on their healing and tracking their boundaries
and behaviors. And it kind of grows through things and
helps guide them through inviting them the sacraments to do regularly, confession,
those kinds of things that capitalizes on what they learned
through the nineteen chapters of the book.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
Now, one question that occurs to me to ask you,
is just all the scripture itself provides plenty of evidence
that there's been a problem with lust for chiefly men.
I suppose for centuries on court history and in the
past this was seen at least mostly or perhaps only,
(04:00):
as a moral problem. Now you seem to be emphasizing
the psychological aspect in the sense of an addiction to this. Now,
the Church has always, of course had means of evo
immortals in h including some of them that you mentioned
in the sacrament is on. But do you think that
the psychological factor has been uh not sufficiently recognized in
(04:23):
the past, uh And that it needs to loom larger
in our approach to this.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
I believe so in my in my own recovery and
my extensive UH time working with us as well as others.
What I have discovered is that while it is a
spiritual issue at its root, that spiritual issue, because it's
involves you know, enemy and demonic activity and so forth,
(04:51):
plays on our emotional woundedness. Our natural tendencies are our
our falls, behaviors and those kinds of things, our own
concupiscence and whatnot. So to really address an addiction like this,
it needs to be addressed in four ways. Needs to
(05:12):
be spiritual, emotional, behavior, and chemical in all these ways
all need to be addressed to really effectively get a
hold of this. And yes, it is at a spiritual root,
but it reveals itself in all these other areas, So
those areas need to be approached and attacked to get
through this as well.
Speaker 4 (05:32):
I was wondering what's the difference between an addiction and
a bad habit.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
An addiction, I don't have the actual definition right in
front of me, but it is addiction is more of
something that when you are more out of control, when
your behavior is known to be a detrimental to yourself,
your soul, or to others. And you do it anyway
and you don't have the ability to stop on your own,
(06:04):
there needs to be some type of additional guidance or
intervention or direction to help doing that and other reliefs.
Most of bad habits or consult compulsions. Often willpower can
overcome those, you know, sometimes just additional prayer can overcome those.
But with an addiction, there's more that's involved. It's deeper
(06:29):
on that, and that happens way too often, especially in
this area.
Speaker 4 (06:35):
See I guess when I think about a bad habit,
like the sin is a bad habit, I mean in
the or stimistic sense of habit, that's something which actually
characterizes somebody after it's a certain time.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
You build up a habit over time.
Speaker 4 (06:52):
I just wonder if we're talking out so much about
differences in kind, but differences in degree, that the more
indulges in a vicious activity, the more one becomes enslaved
to it.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
And you go ahead, yeah, I think that is a
factor to it. Not everyone who indulges extensively in a
behavior or sinful behavior is necessarily addicted. The addiction part
of it becomes more so when it becomes naturally escalating.
(07:29):
And part of that, like especially with pornography or sex addiction,
it escalates because of the usual behavior or the current
behavior and expression does not satisfy the need any longer.
Part of that with addiction, when I talked about one
of the factors that need to be involved is the
chemical part of it. And then we're talking about brain chemistry,
(07:51):
and primarily it's a dopamine, which is the biggest part
of it. And this is something that God designed us
as to understand or to crave certain desires behaviors. You know,
nowhere food is when we need it to. You want
to be with our partners, you know, be intimate with
our partners, and those kinds of things, having the the
(08:11):
the craving desire with that, but with an addiction, especially
with pornography, because a lot of things aren't met properly,
the dopamine overfloods the blank the brain receptors begin to
shut down, so the experience is not as it was
to begin with. So the pleasure that is sought needs
more more often, more more in depth, more risky, more
(08:35):
intense type of behavior or experience to satisfy the craving
that's trying to be fulfilled, and that escalation and growth
is where clinically, I guess it becomes more of an
addiction in that way. Many things, you know, the things
you know, smoking and alcohol and other things can be
(08:56):
that way as well. Video games, eating and so forth
can all be that way as well, so that that's
kind of where it goes. And often there are some
studies that show that pornography is as addictive as heroin
and cocaine. So with that in mind, it's not necessarily
(09:16):
something that you gradually indulge more and more in become
addicted to. It can become addictive very quickly, especially in
younger minds because of the way their brain works, it
can become addicted and very quickly.
Speaker 4 (09:32):
Do you think it's right to say that even though
it's voluntary to first opened up, to say, are our
protographic magazine to look at it? There's that voluntary aspect
to it. There's an aspect of an addiction which is
not voluntary.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
Right right. A lot of addictions, or the nature of
an addiction is there's a craving that you don't have
control of yourself so much, and that's where there needs
to be other avenues to head that off, to to
redirect yourself, which is where we talk about boundaries and
(10:10):
in our book and in what we educate, to redirect
yourself or change your thoughts or behavior and actions before
you get to the point to where in your chemistry
and your brain or whatever in your your attraction for
that particular moment in experience, it hasn't escalated to the
point to where as I say, the train has left
(10:31):
the station, you can't. It's very hard to make a
U turn with a train, so you stop it from leaving,
but you need to recognize when it's about to leave,
and that's part of what we train.
Speaker 5 (10:43):
Yeah, I'm impressed by how you use science and modern
psychology to explore. Of course, pornography has been around since
ancient times, addiction has been around since ancient times, but
I understand our understanding of them is you know, modern.
I Nevertheless, it's often said that there is some kind
(11:05):
of male crisis, you know, in recent decades, which has
made these problems perhaps more serious socially, And I'm wondering
whether some people also would connect these with the rise
of feminism, with the empowerment of women resulting in a
(11:29):
kind of crisis of male identity and so on. I
don't know whether you know you think this is correct
or not, whether such a thing is happening, but could
you maybe comment on these developments, or at least alleged developments.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
Yeah, the idea of feminism contributing to this and so forth,
it probably could be a factor to that, but it's
not really something that I've I really investigated that much
because we've we've I think we've really looked at what
the initial areas are. There's a lot of factors, a
lot of moving targets so to speak, that can always
(12:06):
influence a person to you know, desire sexuality or desire
a different craving of sexuality. And feminism, you know, could
be part of it. But the real innate part of
it is that we are sexual beings and we are
created as such, are designed by God is to co create,
(12:28):
co create life with him, and for that reason, he
makes the experience addictive with our spouses. And it's supposed
to be because that generates life and expands the kingdom,
you know, and the family and on and on, and
then the enemy perverts it into something that's about ourselves
(12:48):
rather than about the bigger hole, and there's just numerous
ways that are always evolving on how to make that
something that's more of a selfish act and about what
we're doing. And one of the things that I have
in the book that I always tend to say as
a perspective, and it's a reason by some of the
(13:09):
activities that we provide, is God created us to be
a gift of self. We are supposed to empty ourselves
to each other. Hence, when you're with your spouse, you
empty yourselves to each other. And when you do that
completely and God wills it, a third person's created you,
much like the Trinity. Okay, Pornography is a gift to self.
(13:32):
It's a very selfish act. So anything that the enemy
can do to create this to be something that's for
ourselves a selfish act. That's where we get. But the
pleasure of it is so intense because it's created that way.
We get hung into that and it works very well
as an escape, a masking mechanism, a medication you know,
(13:55):
as with any you know, addiction or a type of
type of type of experience that then plays on our woundedness,
our unhappiness, and we don't want to experience. We're not
designed to experience being unhappy or feeling worthless and dislike ourselves,
and you know, so forth, so we need to we
need to mask that. And this is a perfect thing
(14:17):
to do this because it's extremely pleasurable.
Speaker 5 (14:20):
So I guess one symptom or aspect of that unhealthy
attitude is what's known as the objectification of women, treating
women as objects for one's own pleasure rather than someone
to whom you give yourself. But you know, that is
from a different perspective, is sometimes seen as one of
(14:41):
the achievements of feminism, that that women were always uh,
you know, objecting to being treated as objects.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Now that again, that's.
Speaker 5 (14:49):
That's coming from a different, uh sort of social and
even political perspective. But it does seem that that that
has been there has been some change an attitude culturally
in men's attitude towards women because of feminism. I guess
what you're suggesting, though, is that going deeper, this is
(15:10):
really a kind of moral problem where there's a basic
error and what used to be very common male attitudes
and which you know, fortunately have been changing in some sectors.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
Right, I think, I think in a way with the
feminism perspective, while they they don't want to be looked
at as objects, but then for empowerment of women, they
will sell the idea of being dressing immodestly or even
taking part in, you know, the production of pornography and
(15:48):
so forth to be an empowerment of women. This is
women's power to do this. I have the right to
do it. It's like you're shooting yourselves in the foot,
you know, so to speak. You're trying to do something,
but you're really creating the opposite effect, creating yourself as
an object by trying not to be an object.
Speaker 5 (16:06):
There was even an article recently, either the Economist or
the Wall Street Journal that the production of video pornography
has become the sort of cottage industry by which you know,
many many people are making you know, money, and then
so called gig economy. I mean, that's really a socially
disturbing phenomenon.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
If it's it is, it is, it's become so why
it's not so much of it's not done in studios
per se anymore. It's it's done you know, in the home,
and then they upload the videos and and they don't
really understand what they're doing, and that's where so much
of the traffic is trafficking is coming into They're they're
either coercing or secretly recording acts and you know, with
(16:52):
different content and they upload them and so forth. So
that's really become a big problem, and it's it's next
to impossible to control, and the extra possible to control,
you know, age control as well.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
So I have read that pornography now and I mean
it's I shouldn't say, I mean it's obvious with the
Internet and with all the video things you've just been
talking about, but that pornography is a lot more powerful
now than it was, say when I was young. I'm
I'm in my seventies now, and when I was young,
(17:26):
it was it was there were photographic magazines and that's
about it. And you know that most people didn't go
didn't know how maybe to find photographic movies or or
where to find it. But uh, do you think that
the the rise in the availability of really intense pornography
(17:51):
has contributed to something which I read a distinction about
once between the desire for a pornography is a substitute
for a woman, or desire for pornography when one is
unable to have access to a woman for whatever reason,
that there's a change in this.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
That can always be a part of it. And we're
looking at my own, my own addictive history. It started
as pornography, but then in myself it escalated to where
I the images weren't enough and I began to reach
out into like massage parlors and prostitution and those kinds
of things.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
But it's the.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Illusion of being wanted and loved is what's really being
craved at the depth. So even in my case, I
was married, but because of other connection issues that were
both mine and and my spouse's, I still wasn't receiving
what I needed. And because I was already in the
selfish mindset of being in pornography since I was, you know,
(19:00):
years old or whatever, it was still something I was seeking,
desperately seeking to be wanted and loved, and it was
it went to that personal touch type behavior, which is
why that has exploded as well. And it's common that
pornography escalates to that, and part of the I think
(19:20):
part of the evidence of that is that when you
look at massage parlors, there are statistically over ten thousand
illicit massage parlors nationwide, and by illicit means I mean
like full whorehouses and there I mean ten thousand of them.
This is a supply and demand issue. It's not like
(19:42):
somebody wakes up one morning, never looked at pornography, left,
never looked at a magazine whatever, and says, oh, I
think I'm going to go to a massage parlor and
get massage and get laid. That doesn't know. This is
something that escalates and grows. So you can see the
demand for that of these massage parlors. Just that alone
(20:02):
has a market because of the growth of pornography, and
then the statistics that there's over a million prostitutes in
the United States through multiple avenues to seek them out
and so forth. Again, it's a market. It's there. You know,
if there wasn't a demand for it, then there wouldn't
be a market.
Speaker 5 (20:23):
Another thing that impresses me about your book is that
you know, it is very much I mean, it looks
like it's a very useful manual, but it also is
very deeply rooted in Catholic teaching. However, it seems that
it's it's therefore addressed really to committed Catholics. I mean
even that the idea of purity is something that's going
(20:43):
to appeal to the committed Catholic. A lot of Catholics today,
or at least people who are, as they say, raised Catholic,
would would question whether that's really necessary, you know, they
they might question what the church can teach about sex
when the church is led by you know, old celibate men.
They would say, well, why not go to secular psychologists?
(21:05):
Doesn't doesn't secular psychology suffice to address this problem? How
would you respond to that objection?
Speaker 3 (21:12):
Well, isn't sex something that's created by God for the
purpose of co creating life with him? It's all about that.
I mean, the the the essence of the universe. The
creation of the universe is by co creating life. Mankind
(21:33):
is based on sex. Without sex, we don't exist, and
mankind is created by God. So all all of it
really is God. And when you get into you know,
basic psychology, too often they try to take God out
of the picture. And if we've seen in so much
of society today, in the government and so forth, in schools,
you take God out of the picture, things stop working.
(21:54):
So addressing sex by itself, if sex is not something
that is in and of itself for yourself, but it's
for others, and it's for procreating life. It's for emptying
yourself to another. Where's the psychology in that part of it?
It's about the aspect of love and being loved and
(22:19):
you know, wanted and so forth, and that's who God
created us to be. And that's where the idea of
sexual relations with a spouse is. And it's the joining
and union of one. So if psychology is going to
enter the picture and promote only union between a man
and a woman, as this is what this is supposed
(22:39):
to be designed for, what's their basis of the purpose
of being only between a man and a woman. If
it's not. If you take religion out of it and
take the Bible out of it, then why is it
between a man and a woman? You know, things just
start falling apart when you take take God in scripture
and the Bible out of it.
Speaker 4 (23:01):
Would how would you counsel parents, amazing sons and maybe
daughters too, to help them guard against help at least
help their children guard against the threat of phnography.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
Several different things that they need to be done on
one necessary thing, but it's often left as the only
thing is having filters on devices, monitoring their activities and
so forth. Too often though, parents will look at that
and say, well, I've got filters on my kids devices
and on the TVs and stuff, so I'm good. Well
that's about ten percent of the answer. What really needs
(23:43):
to be happening is the conversation and relationship with the
parents to the children. There needs to be an awareness
of the parents of how they're impacting their children and
understanding what's really going on behind the addiction or behind
the desire and the use. You know of this precisely
(24:04):
for that reason, Road to Purity is actually creating a
program called Restoring the Family, which is designed to work
with families and children in this area, and a big
part of this is training and healing the parents. Virtually,
one of the countless clients that I've dealt with counsel interviewed, coached,
and whatever. When you dig down to it, the ultimate
(24:28):
core reason of them being addicted or expending into this
behavior is trying to mask or cope with an identity
that is of something like I'm not good enough, I'm
not worthy, I'm not wanted, I'm not loved. All of
that where did that come from? Where did that start?
Ninety nine percent of the time it's with their parents,
(24:51):
and it's virtually never anything malicious. Now, yes, there is
true abuse and things that happen, but most of the
time it's not anything malicious. It's just ignorance of parents,
simple things such as you know, the old saying is
children are meant to be seen and not heard. Well,
that in and of itself will tell a child that
(25:14):
what you have to say doesn't matter, we don't want
to hear from you. That diminishes their value and want,
you know, as a person. And there are so many
different things that a parent does unintentionally of course, that
makes a child not recognize and not feel affirmed, understood, loved,
(25:35):
you know, and whatnot. And it's educating and learning that
And most of the time it's because the parents themselves
have their own feelings of unworthiness and wanted and they
respond out of reaction to their own woundedness, which then
perpetuates to the kids and they learn, you know, the
same thing out of either modeling what their parents did
(25:58):
or open to receive what they think their parents meant,
and so forth. So the child ends up wounded and
then when they I'm not happy with their identity and
who they are, and they get exposed to something that's
extremely pleasurable or representative of a love, they latch onto it.
(26:19):
And I speak from the same kind of idea. What started,
you know, with myself as well? I remember I did
not feel connected with my mother for whatever reason. Can't
identify something she did to cause that, but I just
didn't have that feeling. It didn't feel wanted and loved
and accepted and known whatever. Didn't know that until later
(26:42):
doing the work many decades later. But for myself, in
like about first or second grade, I created an imaginary
childhood freemale friend, somebody that I could, you know, have
experience or thoughts of being with some you know person too.
I could play with it, wanted to be with me,
and you know, so forth to fulfill that emptiness that
(27:03):
I was experiencing but didn't know at the time. Of course,
as puberty came, it became sexual and turned under that,
and it wasn't until much later in life that I realized, oh,
this is really a problem. This is distracting me and
distracting me from true intimacy as God designed. I'm intimate
with this person, that's an imagination. Well, I created this
(27:27):
thing to fulfill the emptiness that I had and didn't
really know that was what it was until it was.
I worked through some other processes and with some good
counselors and so forth to to discover that. And we'll
go through that. But that's what happens when there's just
that feeling that's there. And I think a parents can
be more conscious of what it is that they talk
(27:49):
to their kids about, involving their kids in their feelings
and so forth. Express you talk about sexuality in inappropriate
terms of different age, but at the same time be aware,
make the kids aware that they can always come to
them and talk to them about anything, no matter what,
whether it's just you know, oh, Johnny said, brought this
(28:10):
at the you know, a third grade He had had
his cell phone out or something and he showed us
this stuff, or this teacher touched me in a bad way,
or any of those things. They need to be able
to share this and be okay with that and and
so forth, not have to keep it hidden. And in
those efforts, the ideal of inappropriate images that they run
(28:32):
into aren't quite so intriguing or quite so fresh and
new and something they've never heard of in the experience
of because they've already gotten some teaching on it, and
they've already not feeling so needy into something external to
make them, you know, feel whole, so to speak. So
(28:54):
it's a whole whole process to do, and we're working
on teaching that you know as well in another up
coming program. More or less trying to prevent the issue
rather than fix the issue.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
We talk about boys of pornography.
Speaker 4 (29:09):
I remember the seventies there was an attempt at a
protographic magazine for women, Playgirl. I don't think it didn't survive.
Pay Yeah, anyway is women don't seem to have the
same proclivity to cite looking at men like men women.
But is there a problem with pornography.
Speaker 3 (29:31):
With women, Yeah, there's a growing problem. It's not as
much as men. There the flavor, if you will, is
different if you really, if you really look at it.
The giant industry of romance novels is really pornography. The
(29:52):
scenes and descriptions and stories that are depicted. While there
may not be images, their description for the physical intimacy
and the connectedness and the wantedness with that that ends
up in a sexual relation that is also pornography in
that way for women. Now women have some of it
(30:12):
because of the maybe some of the women's movement and
so forth, have grown to want, you know, look at more,
and some of it's begun because if they want to
be more connected with their their their men that they're with.
I've seen stories of young girls, you know, fourteen year
old girls who looks at pornography so she can learn
(30:33):
what her boyfriend wants. And you know, I can't even list,
you know, the problems that are that are with that
to begin with, you know, the whole thing. But that's
what's happening as well on that side of things. So
and the there are more and more pornographic videos being
(30:54):
created that have more of a softer intimate side to
him for the women. And I think that's something that
back in the day. Playgirl didn't really understand that depth
of it at that time, which is why it failed.
But today, you know, they figured it out.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Now. A minute ago, you were talking about your own
experience and the relationship where the flaws in your relationship
with your mother. But I'm wondering, I mean, in the
average adolescent, it looks at pornography. How much of this
is just old fashioned lust and how much of it
(31:36):
is it has a root in some psychological need and uh,
well I will follow up question for that too, but
to go ahead and answer address this one first place.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
I think all of it starts with lust because of
the craving to be with, you know, someone of the
opposite sex in that way. But then when that is experienced,
the the fulfillment of another other another area, another missing
part of psychological part, the woundedness or whatever, begins to infiltrate,
(32:13):
as well as the biological implications of it, with the
addictive part of it, the dope mean, and so forth
through the experience of it, the high that you get.
So I think it starts that way, but it can
quickly move to the other part of it.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
And that's where sometimes I think if the if the
the children's understanding of what they're looking at immediately and
and have a proper idea of sexuality there more immediately
will see it and be maybe turned off by the
idea that, oh, this is not what this is supposed
this is not what God created, this is not what
(32:50):
this is supposed to be. Because they were taught. So
it's it's I think I liken it too, And a
thought of witnessing a car accident where a person flies
out of the vehicle, you should be appalled by that
and just go, oh, this is horrible. This I can't
see that. You know, this is something I don't want
(33:11):
to be looking at. Where sure there's there's a class,
not a class, but there's you know a group of
people who watch these type of videos and stuff and
get entertainment from them, you know, from other people. Well,
that should be something if taught morally and ethically. You
see that and go, now, this is horrible. This is
you know, somebody's got to pray for these people. What
(33:31):
happened to this person. The same thing, when you get
an experience with pornography, you will see something and say
this is not We're not supposed to see this, This
is not the catechism, this is not what God designed,
you know, and be more or less turned off by it.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
I would think that one would have to have a
be thoroughly convinced of the truth of the Catholic faith
and of the possibility, frankly of hell in order to
if you're a young and married guy too and you're
in front of phiography. Sure you can turn away from it.
(34:13):
You can remind yourself, as you just said, that this
is not what God created sex for. And if I
look at this, I'm I'm starting in the room to hell. Sure,
but in Catholic families today, it strikes me that there's
not maybe a robust awareness of this as there's not
(34:33):
one of the worst men. Yeah, one of the worst
places that I actually see young women dressed in modestly
as a mass. It's very strict.
Speaker 3 (34:44):
Unfortunately, there's there's just a lot of The best I
could say is ignorance, you know of this. Chastity and
modesty just are not part of today's world, whether they
go to mass or not.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
You know, and there and it's all marketed with that
in mind.
Speaker 4 (35:06):
I mean, the manufacturers of clothing know exactly what they're
doing in their designs, right, they get I used to
think when I was younger at them, Well these girls
are they you know there's sluts.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
I don't think they are.
Speaker 4 (35:19):
I think they just they don't necessarily understand what they're
doing all the time.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
I think some of it they don't understand, but some
of it too is did they get positive attention when
they dress that way, which then points to the same problem,
the same problem as everything else, is they're not getting
the love and attention. They don't feel wanted, they don't
feel loved, they don't really feel respected, they don't feel
the dignity at home already, so they crave it. And
(35:48):
when they get it outside and they if you discover
the oh, if I you know, dressing tighter clothing or
more revealing or whatever, I like the attention I get,
you know what, not realizing not really going through their
head and realizing, well, I'm getting the attention as an object,
as a thing they want to play with me, not
because they want my heart to understand who I am.
(36:12):
That that that escapes the picture. But nonetheless, hey, attention
is been Some attention, even is the wrong attention is
better than no attention, right, So that's where we got
to fix it.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
When somebody comes to you a male or counseling, do
you assume that there is a psychological aspect or could
you say to him, listen, you you're you're you know,
having a lust better confession and necessary better confession every
week until this is uh taking care of it? Or
(36:49):
do you or do you assume that they have some
kind of a psychological lack that they are unaware of.
Speaker 3 (36:56):
I always started, I always listen to what they tell me,
what they're what their history is, and what's going on.
Then I start digging into their their history in childhood
and so forth, and looking at things. Then I will
make statements based on can you talk about this? Is it?
Do you feel this way? Or you know and so forth.
Bottom line is, nine percent of the time, by the
(37:22):
time I talk to somebody, especially by the time they're
an adult and they're they're far enough along that they
need to reach out for help, there's something going on underneath.
There is As I always say, porn is not about porn,
It's about something deeper. What is the deeper thing that
it's about? And whenever I begin talking to somebody and
(37:46):
quiz them talk go into different details and hear their
stories and histories and so forth, I always have in
the back of my mind I'm looking for what is
their pain? What is it that they are trying to
cover or satisfy that they're missing, And that's what this
soothes or satisfies. And once we find that and dig
(38:08):
into that, it's often more easily more easily able to
redirect or come up with a plan of where to
go from there. And even sometimes with the acts of lust.
I have talked a lot of guys would just say, oh,
I just have a lust problem. I don't look at
porn anymore. I just just lust. Well, you're still looking
(38:30):
for something. And in the Winning the Battle, there's a
chapter in there that's it's a lust exercise, and it's
something that is created to guide a guy through about
lust and what they're looking for and why they're lusting.
And it's something that's it's really a process again about
(38:54):
feeling love and connected with Christ and feeling that and
feeling that they have what they need, that they're fulfilled,
that they're not looking for something.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
Well, you know, as you know, when our first parents sinned,
the integrity of our human nature was broken, so that
the various appetites began to go off on their own
and to seek their own fulfillment or pleasure without reference
to the good of the whole. And this is very
(39:25):
clearly shown, for example, in food, where people can eat
so much that they actually injure their body and they
sometimes have difficulty even getting around because they're focusing on
this one particular craving, which is food. And of course
(39:45):
the same thing is true with sex, not exactly the same,
but very similar actually. But I don't know. To me,
it seems maybe because of my age or whatever, but
it seems to me that all the a lot of
this is explicable simply by the fact that our desire
for sexual pleasure has become disconnected with our reason and
(40:10):
is going off on his own to seek pleasure, the
pleasure kind of pleasure that, as you say, God intended
us to wart. But nonetheless he intended us in a
certain context, just like he intended us on eating food
and enjoying eating food, but only to the extent that
we're nourishing our body, or at least not hurting our body.
Speaker 3 (40:33):
Right, And I think they're very they're very similar when
when you approach either either behavior. The ultimate process is
that we go through in our books and our teaching
work both ways. When a person is over eating to
that extent where they're injuring their bodies, they're not eating
(40:53):
because they're hungry, unless there's some type of other, you know, uh,
disorder in their hormones or something like that. But that's
that's that's more much more rare. They're not eating because
they're hungry. The question is what are they feeding. They're
feeding the pain. They get an enjoyment from the food.
They get an enjoyment from the fulfilled, the fullness that
they received. They want to maintain filled fullness usually to
(41:20):
keep that buffer of the outside world, the outside pain.
The more that they eat, the more full that they need,
the more protected that they feel, and the more satisfied
that they are internally, which results in the food. So again,
what are they feeding. It's this pain that's inside. And
I guess an exhibition of this is with our programs.
(41:44):
Primary we are restoring God's Foundation is one of the
programs we had for for years before this. We have
thousands of members in and winning the Battle is kind
of born out of that. And I have countless countless
guys will come to me and say, you know, I
started this program to get a hold of my porn habit.
This program is actually changing who I am, and my
(42:06):
porn is going away on its own. And that's the point.
That's what we're trying to do. It's not about just
learning to curb your behaviors, it's learning to fulfill what's
really going on underneath. So the need isn't there, or
it's redimaghed to an amount that you can control it.
(42:28):
And the same thing with lost.
Speaker 4 (42:29):
It sounds like what you're saying is something similar. I's
told by my personal treatment, but by psychologists or psychiatrists.
I interviewed for newspaper years ago. He was a Catholic,
and he was pretty well thought of it. He thought
that the problem most mental illness was it's not all illness,
it's beyondest to merror and chemical problems is a lack
(42:52):
of a sense what he called filiation, namely understanding ourselves
in relationship that God is our father. So, Tom, you
mentioned we lost in the fall, we lost our integrity.
I think what theend suggests here pret me if I'm wrong,
is that in order to overcome anything like an addiction
(43:15):
or sin, we have to recreate that integrity that we're
because what we're looking for is joy. We're looking for
the good, and that can only be ultimately found in
God and having a proper relationship with God. So the
actual cure for all all our ills is actually that.
But you know, sometimes the help of psychological science is
just like in order to heal our body and have
(43:37):
the integrity to buy that we need to help the
terms of medical sciences. But what we're looking for is that.
And so what your process is, all that you're talking
about is that we're it's a process of restoring integrity,
which ultimately is rooted in God.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
Right. The ideal is one increased in the holiness. But
for example, I could see how I could fall into
these any of these sins if I didn't carefully watch
myself and remind myself frankly of hell from time to
time as necessary. And uh, I don't think that it's
(44:17):
because of some kind of psychological lack that I attempted.
I think it's because I'm a falling in me and
I get like the rest of us. And and but
but you know, if if you no, I agree, if
you have a habit, it would be harder to do
(44:37):
to do this. But if you if you simply remind yourself,
you've got to stay in the state of grace. Uh
you can you know what you can to raist and
fight these things.
Speaker 3 (44:51):
If you're Yeah, if you're not in a habit or
compulsion or addiction, it is easier to to fight these things.
I would also ask ask you, is your your motivate,
your motivation or your strength to not fall into a
lust or or these kind of stands. Is it due
(45:13):
to the fear of hell or the love of God?
Speaker 2 (45:18):
Well? Both, I mean, but I'm not ashamed of saying
that a lot of it is fear of hell, because
I won't claim but I'm I'm really advanced spiritually, but
I don't see anything wrong with that, with with with
having that kind of fear if necessary. If necessary, I
don't say I go around with it all the time,
but I'm not, but I don't. I think it's I mean,
(45:40):
I think that the classical spiritual tradition of the Church has
always said that the fear of hell can be salutary.
I'm not saying it's the highest kind of spiritual level,
and it isn't, but nonetheless it can be quite salutary
and in times of intense temptation, very.
Speaker 3 (45:59):
Helpful, right. I mean, it can be a motivator. And
I do know that with individuals that are are struggling
with beating this, that is the deterrent. That is not
so much the deterrent, it's it's listening to the voice
the enemy in their head. You're saying, oh, just okay
(46:20):
to one more time, just go to confashion. It's no
big deal. Just just you know, go ahead and indulge
yourself and go to confession. You get all, you know,
you get it all, reset and we're good. Don't worry
about it. And they listen to that lie and anyway, no, yeah,
go ahead.
Speaker 2 (46:37):
One thing that comes.
Speaker 5 (46:38):
Through from your book is the falsehood you know, involved
in addiction and pornography. There's always a certain deception or
self deception. Well, you know, you can certainly think of
you know, the Father of Lies as being behind this,
but I would I think that culturally, one problem is
(46:59):
is that in our society, many people are becoming divorced
from reality, you know. And and of course the uh
one of the effects of video and the internet and
and uh, you know, the proliferation of different means of
communication can also get us used to not living truthfully,
(47:21):
living living with falsehood. One of the arguments that used
to come up, you know, when when there were attempts
to legislate against pornography, was that it was a form
of art or that, and then people became confused and
whether there is a distinction between art and pornography, and
(47:41):
yet I think that pornography is in all cases a
form of kitsch, a kind of false art, an art
which is not based on the unity of truth and beauty,
but on a kind of falsehood. And it seems to
me that that's one approach that could be useful and
important to say that if you want to live truthfully,
(48:03):
you have to avoid these things.
Speaker 3 (48:06):
Were absolutely, I mean, one of the things I one
of the definitions I have for pornography is is it
something that is designed to incite lust? So, yeah, a
woman dressed fully clothed, but is designed to incite lust
by the way she's outfitted, it could be pornography.
Speaker 2 (48:26):
Mm hm.
Speaker 3 (48:28):
So, and it's it's it's looking at the intent of
the artist, you know, for that and that's why you know,
the Sistine Chapel has nudes on it, but it's not
it's intent for for beauty and human form. It's not
intent to incite lust, so therefore it's not pornography. And
that's kind of the difference.
Speaker 2 (48:57):
M Well, are some of the what are some of
the specific steps that you recommend to your clients that
you have in your book Winning the Battle that would
enable you to address not just pornography addiction, but alcoholism,
drugs or reading.
Speaker 3 (49:20):
Yeah, one of the primary things that we look at
is setting boundaries, and it's understanding boundaries and understanding your
behavior and so forth. And this is this is part
of the behavioral part of the solution. And whereas so
many of the you know, my Recovery, the other groups
and stuff that I've been into, they would define a
(49:43):
boundary is actually looking at pornography at and acting out.
I define that as a primary boundary. I went and
stepped before that and made it like a secondary boundary.
And secondary boundaries are anything that kind of begins to
go down that road. So protecting yourself, like you don't
take your phone into the bathroom because it's too easy
(50:05):
of an opportunity for those to struggle with that. If
your situation is that, you know, you have your computer
in an a private office in the home, and you
tend to go and check your email after everybody else
has gone to bed, and one out of three times
you get onto YouTube and you start looking at certain
(50:26):
types of you know, suggestive pictures, and then you're looking
at cheerleaders and then you oh, what's my old girlfriend
doing on Facebook ten years ago, and then you know,
on and on and on, and then one out of
three times you end up on looking at porn. Well,
one of your secondary boundaries is don't look go to
the computer after everybody's going to bed, or move it
(50:47):
to where it's in more of a public area or
something like that. Protecting what you consume. As as far
as entertainment, there's way too much you know, TV and
movies out there that have sexual content in them, not
even you know, not poorn, but just to suggestive sexual
content and it can start a person thinking and imagining
(51:12):
depending on the person, and that's something that has to
be watched. Be careful of not watching something like that.
So it's it's setting boundaries to where you don't behave
in certain certain things. Like for myself, for example, my
wife likes watching Dancing with the Stars. Well, you know,
that's a popular TV show. Who cares, you know, it's
(51:33):
no big deal, just dancing. For me, the outfits and
the prerogative movements of the women and the dancing is triggering.
I am become aware of that. I know myself, and
I say, okay, you record that, you watch it later.
I'm not gonna watch it with you. I'm just not
gonna do that, okay. So those kinds of situations you
(51:53):
have to decide which is which is a potential introduction
to the you know, the path to sin for you.
So and everybody is separate on those individually. But that's
that's a behavioral part from a more of a spiritual part.
And which is also behavioral too, is the idea I
(52:15):
mentioned before of being a gift of self. One of
the activities we suggest is everybody to be a gift
of self somehow, someday, some somehow, some way every day,
whether it's doing the dishes for your spouse, which you
so you don't normally do that, opening a door for
a stranger, buying the coffee for the person behind you
in line, doing something that is a gift of consciously,
(52:38):
a gift of self, getting outside of yourself to do
something for somebody else. Because as I said, porn is
a gift to self. You cannot give and take at
the same time. It's it's in scripture a kingdom divide.
It cannot stand. You can't give and take simultaneously. So
if you begin to retrain your brain into giving instead
of taking, that's one of me the aspects that contribute
(53:01):
to changing the way you behave and then being honest
with yourself on what is underneath the realism or the
truth of what you're doing. What are you really looking for?
Is the question that you can ask. You can even
you know, go to adoration before Jesus and said, Jesus,
(53:22):
when I look at pornography, what am I really looking for?
Because it's not the pornography? What am I really looking for?
And set for ten to fifteen minutes and be quiet
and listen. He'll tell you and find the depth of.
Speaker 2 (53:35):
It the secondary boundaries that you mentioned, so like the
same as what the church calls of what the new
occasions of sin.
Speaker 3 (53:45):
It does that too, Yeah, that's part of it. Yeah,
anything that works with anything.
Speaker 2 (53:51):
Right, any person, place or occasion that is for an
individual temptation.
Speaker 3 (53:58):
You're an alcoholic, you don't go into a bar and
you don't even take a sip of a of a
beer at a party. You just don't do it in
the way of a porn addict where they may, like
I said, look at suggestive videos on YouTube or Instagram
or pictures or something like that that begins a dope,
(54:18):
mean drip kind of thing to where it starts the craving.
I liken it to an alcoholic just dipping their finger
into a shot glass shot of whiskey or whatever it
is and just looking it. It's just a little I mean,
they're not getting drunk, it's just a little taste. But
what's that due to them? It starts the process. And
(54:39):
that's where you got to back up before that. You
can't even get you can't even let that happen to you.
And so much of the what we consume, you know,
entertainment wise, is the problem. And we're we're trained to
be accept that as entertainment and then look at it
and go, well, I can handle that, that's not such
(55:01):
a big deal. And I propose the question shouldn't be
can you handle it?
Speaker 2 (55:05):
It?
Speaker 3 (55:06):
Should you handle it?
Speaker 2 (55:09):
It?
Speaker 3 (55:09):
Is this something that's edifying and morally correct to watch
to begin with? Just because I can handle it? No,
I don't need it.
Speaker 2 (55:19):
I think people are often fooling themselves when they think
they can handle something. Yeah, and there really having a
low level of lusting.
Speaker 3 (55:29):
Right right, And it wasn't too long ago that you know,
I was in the same boat, but it's it's changed,
it's really it's different. What I really need to point
out is it's is as you said before, it's the
relationship with with God, with Christ, with our blessed Mother,
(55:49):
all of it.
Speaker 2 (55:50):
It is.
Speaker 3 (55:51):
It is this aspect of having perfect love that we
can't get from our you know, we we grow up
looking for perfect love from imper beings and it's just
not going to happen. And until we can work through
that and and be introduced to get it properly, there's
more problems than not.
Speaker 2 (56:15):
Now you're a book winning the battle. Where can people
get that book?
Speaker 3 (56:20):
You can get through our website roadipurity dot com. Uh,
there's a tab called store takes you to our store,
and we have numerous different types of items and stuff there,
you know, spiritual items and recovery products and so forth.
But the books icon category is one of those in there.
And there's also an option in there to where you
can get a kit for small groups, so perishes, men's groups,
(56:43):
so forth. They get a very inexpensively get a kit
with a facilitator. Manual teaches you how to run a group,
provides questions to lead a group with, uh, you know,
checking rounds, those kinds of things and lead you through
all of that, the training and whatnot. So it works
both ways.
Speaker 2 (57:04):
So I've road to Purity dot com. Yep, yeah, okay, okay,
Do you anyone have any final commisser questions?
Speaker 5 (57:14):
No?
Speaker 2 (57:16):
Then would you like to add anything of the end
to your message?
Speaker 3 (57:25):
I mean I would say that I with what we've experienced,
what we've done. I was addicted for over thirty years,
and I gave you some of what I have been
involved in, and I've been recovery for over fifteen and
the truth of what it really takes to get out
of it is the Catholic Church, the Sacraments, confession, the Eucharist, adoration,
being a presence of Christ, having our Blessed Mother be
(57:49):
at our side while we're going through this. We have
we have more powerful devices and tools and askedffects of
this truth than any other religion. And I said, we
need to take advantage of it, and we show you
how to do that. And I mean, I've gotten pretty
far in myself and I'm out. It's it's freedom as possible.
(58:15):
You can get through this, and if you're stuck, you
can get to our website and there's places you can
make a free consultation with me. If you want, I'll
help you get started.
Speaker 2 (58:25):
Very good. Well, thank you very much, thank you. Yeah.
Being our guest today, I'm sorry, thank you for having me.
I just said, thank you. Let's end up with a
heill marriage to our pleasant lady, the spirit him Mary,
full of grace. The Lord is with the blessed are
the women unless it is the fruit of the womb
Jesus only married Mother of God. Very for us sinners
(58:49):
now at all of our death an mother, so whisper.
Speaker 3 (58:54):
Yeah, thank you very much, Thank you appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (59:00):
Hello, God's beloved. I'm Annabel Moseley, author, professor of theology
and host of then Sings My Soul and Destination Sainthood
on WCAT Radio. I invite you to listen in and
find inspiration along this sacred journey. We're traveling together to
make our lives a masterpiece and, with God's grace, become saints.
(59:23):
Join me Annabel Moseley for then Sings My Soul and
Destination Sainthood on WCAT Radio. God bless you. Remember you're
never alone. God is always with you.
Speaker 2 (59:42):
Thank you for listening to a production of WCAT Radio.
Please join us in our mission of evangelization, and don't
forget Love lifts up when knowledge takes flight.
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