Episode 306: Fr. Maxim Morariu talks about the situation in Romania (September 18, 2025)

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In this episode of The Open Door, panelists Thomas Storck and Christopher Zehnder speak with Fr. Maxim Morariu, a prominent Romanian Orthodox theologian, cleric, scholar, and cultural figure, holding multiple doctorates and actively contributing to theological research, literature, and pastoral work in Romania and the diaspora.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
You're listening to WCAT radio, your home for authentic Catholic programming.

Speaker 2 (00:06):
Welcome to the Open Door with your host Thomas Tort
and co host Christopher Zander and andrews Rakowski, who unfortunately
is not with us today. Our guest today is Point
of Maximum of the Romanian Orthodox Diases of Canada, who
will be speaking not just about the religious situation in Romania,
but about its unique cultural heritage and history, as well

(00:28):
as the situation Eastern Europe as a whole. So let's
begin with our normal prayer, the name of the Father's Son,
the Holy Spirit. Amen, Come the Holy Spirit, Pull the
hearts of your faithful and kindle them the fire of
your love. Send forth your Spirit and they shall be created.
Then you shall renew the face of the earth. Let
us pray. We'll go out, who, by the light of

(00:50):
the Holy Spirit did instructive hearts of the faithful. Granted
by the same Holy Spirit, we may be truly wise.
It ever enjoys consolations through Christ our award. Amen. Father,
So always Amen. So thank you for following, Max very
much for being our guest today, and start off just

(01:10):
ask you some general questions about Romania, which I think
many of our listeners might not be well acquainted with,
of course in the Eastern European country, but it's is
unique in many ways from the surrounding neighbors.

Speaker 3 (01:26):
Could you talk to address that question. Please, thank you
very much for the invitation. I'm very very happy to
deal with you again. I think it's for the second
time and I'm part of your show, and thank you
very much, mister Thomas. Yes, Romania is special, as you said,
and it's very interesting if one takes a look on it.
It's a Slavic in effact, it's a Latin island in

(01:47):
the Slavic Sea. And in the same time it speaks
a language which is rather Latin and with small Slavic influences.
And in the same time it's it's Orthodox is a
not It's the country with the majority of Orthodox paid
for So of course the question that may come it's
wise like that, how do you have this country? I
don't know exactly how to explain all of these stuff,

(02:09):
but I think it was the work of God and
how in the history, because we have a very deep
relating background that we are very proud of. But then
we have also Slavic neighbors. That tried to influence us
in the cultural way, and probably from them the Orthodox
majority came so probably because of that. It's weird, and

(02:31):
you asked me to prepare something about this. Romania was
part of the Romanian in fact, not Romania. The Dacian country,
which was at the time was part of the Remainian
Empire for less than two hundred years between one six
and to seven one two hundred and seventy one, when
it was the withdrown of Aurelian and they came back

(02:52):
to Bulgaria. The Roman troops came back to Bulgaria, and
still we speak the Latin language, which was not aututonous,
that the local language that they spoke at the moment
when the Roman conquered those lands. But it's interesting and
it's also important to know that not all the Romanian
now now these Romanian lands were part of this Romanian

(03:16):
Empire Roman Empire at the time, because the northern part,
which is for example Mara Murdas. You've probably heard about it,
about this happy cemetery from Sapunsa, which is very known
because of the fact that you have those notes on
the funeral crosses with people speaking about their death in

(03:36):
a very funny way, in somehow trying to speak in
a funny way. And there have also very beautiful churches,
wooden churches in maraa Murash. So this Mara Murdah was
not part of the Roman Roman Empire never and there
was the northern part of de DeAsia who stayed free
from the Roman Empire. But still we speak the same language,
we have the same cultural heritage, and it's important to

(04:02):
understand that we are. It's somehow difficult to understand. Moreover,
if I go to the recent history, because as a historian,
I'm specialized rather in the recent part of the history
than in the Roman and antiquity. Transylvania, the northern part
of Romania was not part of the country and was
under Hungarian Kingdom, Austro Hungarian Empire, Turkish Ottoman Empire, so

(04:27):
under different occupations for more than one thousand years. I
come from Transylvania and from Vistis Anasaud, which is the
northern part in the neighborhood of Maramurajh, and we still
speak the same language, so we still have the same
cultural heritage. Indeed, Transylvania was special because somewhere in the
beginning of the eighteenth century, more than a half of

(04:47):
the people joined to the uni uniation we called it.
They united with the Catholic Church, but they kept the
writ so they celebrated in the Eastern Riot. But they
they were still Romanians, and they spoke the same language
like the other people from the other Romanian principates, So

(05:09):
that's interesting. I couldn't say how they started, how the
Roman Empire tried and managed to make them speak Latin.
Probably something related with the fact that Latin language was
like English today, everybody was speaking it in a form
or other, because otherwise it's difficult to explain how. There
are so many other hypothesis like the desist culture that

(05:33):
embodied the Roman culture and some but I would not
go to join them because we have not historical evidences
in this sense in these areas. So probably the fact
that the Latin language became something spoken by everybody in
less than one hundred and seventy years. It's related to
the fact that Latin language was something used before and after,

(05:55):
and it was the language of communication between the people
at the time, like today's English.

Speaker 2 (06:07):
Now. And as I understand it, Romania has deliberately straightened
Latin ties for example, am I correct in thinking that
in the nineteenth century they changed the alphabet from Serro
to Latin?

Speaker 3 (06:25):
Is that correct? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, Transylvania came before, and
Moldivia and Wallachia a little bit later. But yes, And
this alphabet was imposed rather by the by the Slavic
culture and the religion at the time, because when they
started to write, they started in this way with cyrillic characters.
Because of this, it was the language of the church

(06:46):
and the language of the cancillary, imposed somehow by the
neighbors and the relationship that they have commercially and socially
with the Slavic neighbors like Bulgarians or Russians.

Speaker 2 (07:01):
And Romania has is known for the some of the
very important intellectual immigrants who've worked in Paris, probably most
notably uh was Alana from pronouncing his name right, who
certainly a well known figure and study of comparative religions,

(07:24):
as well as some poets, composers and uh, I know
what id or you whom you've worked on was? My
wife has worked on him? Is this is this connection
of Romania and France is still is it still live? Connections?
Is still important?

Speaker 3 (07:42):
Yes? Under certain points, yes, we still have. It was very,
very great in the nineteenth century when we have to
create a Romanian intellectuality, and it was French space which
allowed us to create. Because the Boyars and the rich
people from Romania who wanted to study and to get
rich in culture came to France, it was easier for
them because of the language. Romanian languages today the most

(08:04):
Latin language from all among the Latin languages in the world.
We have more than sixty percent of the basic vocabulary
of the language which provides comes from the Latin language,
so they are their bits of Latin. And for this
reason it was easy for a Romanian to learn French.
Like it was not very difficult for me to learn
French or Italian. When I went to Italy in three months,
I was speaking Italian very well and without without making

(08:28):
a great effort. I'm trying to speak English since I
was a child, and I still, as you can say,
I still have problems. But with French and the Italian
it was not very difficult. So for this reason it
started this cooperation, this relationship within France. And then of
course it was the mirage of Paris for everybody. Paris
was a very beautiful city, a cosmopolite one, so everybody

(08:50):
wanted to come there and they borrowed the cultural things
in the nineteenth century. Then it came the communist regime,
because this came from the nineteenth century up to the communism.
During the communist regim, a lot of people who were
part of the former structures so social structures, were forced
to live or some of others. They decided to live
after being persecuted, and a place to go was France

(09:12):
because in Romania we were speaking in good France. I
would point also another aspect. During the seventies, the communist
rey Jim Chaucesco had a good relationship with Francophone countries
from Africa like morocc and also other countries and when
they were they were requested professors for their schools. They
were always sending Romanians in these schools because the Remainians

(09:35):
were speaking very good French. So it's not something that
is related only with the exile, which is clearly that
they were close to France, the former princes, they have properties,
they had a lot of friends in France. They were
linked with the cultural life. A lot of the intellectuals
of Romania started to publish in France. Why it wouldn't
be probably for the people who were listening as notorious

(09:58):
to say that there have a lot of princesses who
started to publish in French. They were Romanian and they
published like Princess Bibescu for example, in the nineteenth century.
She was very known in France of the time because
of the notes of travel and the books that she
published about the history of Romania. But she published in
France and she was somehow embodied by the culture of France.

(10:21):
So it started. Unfortunately after nineteen eighty nine, those relationships
started to not be so important like before, and how
you can see it, for example, in the language. Before
the nineteen eighty nine the neologisms of the Romanian language
were mostly French, coming from French language. Now, after nineteen

(10:42):
eighty nine, like probably everywhere in the world, most of
the neologists come from English, just a few of them
from France. So this can be a sign of the
fact that it's not the same. But we still have
good relationships with France. We still love the French culture,
and between English and French are the two languages studied

(11:02):
nowadays in the Romanian schools. I remember when I was
a student, I had to choose between English and French.
But most of the people choose English today because it's
it's the language that everybody speaks.

Speaker 2 (11:14):
That's very very interesting. So now English, from my standpoint,
it seems like Anglo Saxon intellectual life has some significant
differences from Latin intellectual life. One in one way. For example,
we prioritize the empirical sciences as kind of the the standard,

(11:41):
the hallmark of exact knowledge, rather than say philosophy or theology.
How is that affecting Romanian thought culture?

Speaker 3 (11:54):
It's almost the same. Moreover, Romania was always the country
that took the model of the template of the Anglo
Saxon societies. And I remember before coming in Canada, I
worked for a few years in the University of Cluse.
University of Clusi is the most performance university nowadays in Romania.
We had twenty four faculties in the state. In Romania,

(12:16):
the most the performance is made usually in the system
of the state, not in the private system. So the
most important universities you will find as being state universities.
And I graduated Inclusive University, and I worked for a
few years in Clusion and in bubbish Boy University in cluss.
The performance was linked with publishing in web of science journals,

(12:37):
writing in different languages, but publishing in a web of
science journals for a theology and is difficult because they
are interested in politics, in political theology, in different stuff
that are rather related with not do with theology, but
with convergent topics of theology. So it was very difficult

(12:58):
for us. From the humanities and social sciences.

Speaker 2 (13:08):
Well as you know, there's there's a there's hell to
be a gas a chasm almost between what's called the
analytic and continental philosophy. But I know that analytic philosophy
is making more progress and or making more headway or

(13:28):
should say in roads on the continent of Europe. Uh,
I suppose this is affecting Romania as well.

Speaker 3 (13:36):
Indeed unfortunately. But yeah, it's part of the transition of
the society end of the globalization. You know, Romania came
later than the Eastern society to secularism and later to globalization.
But when it came, it came totally. You know, it's
as a form of surrounding and that's probably bad. I

(13:57):
was looking, you know these days. There was an a
few months ago there was a discussion about one of
the Romanian writers, probably you know about cartho Escu. Cartoescu
was proposed to the Romanian Academy and he was rejected.
And among the reasons for which he was rejected, although
he's probably the most translated Romanian writer, was the fact

(14:18):
that he refused to assume and he wrote bad things
about Eminescu and the cultural history of the Romania. And
I would probably agree, you cannot be the member of
Romanian Academy as soon as you don't feel related linked
with the Romanian values. I remember I was a young
student and I've met the dean of Faculty of Letters

(14:39):
in Pisa in Italy, who spoke Romanian fluently, who was
in love with our culture, and who was deeply rooted
in our culture and religion. Yes he was member of
the Romanian Academy at the time, but yes, for me,
it was very important to understand that, yeah, he was
in love with our culture. How can you bring in

(15:02):
the Romanian Academy a man who's against the culture of
his country. This is also if I don't want to
to be very critical, I agree that there are points
that must be criticsts, but you cannot say that everything
that was before is bad, and now you come to
say something that is new. Yes, you say something that
is new and is good, but you need to accept
also that it has been done. So for this reason,

(15:24):
I agree with the idea that Romania is taking and
it's coming to the globalization and it's somehow taking everything
that comes from outside like good. I remember in the
history I'm a historian, so we had the historian Ruchian
Boya who was criticizing everything in the historical discuss from
the communist period. I think there were bad things done
during the communist spirit, but they are also historians who

(15:47):
settled down things that are important for nowaday research, and
we shouldn't put all of them in the same part.

Speaker 4 (15:56):
I have a question kind of backing up with that
of segue into something else. Eastern Europe seems to have
a lot of You have a like historically Hungary, parently
Malagi aar that you also had German pockets and Slavonic
pockets within Hungary. Is that the same in Romania? Do

(16:18):
you have.

Speaker 3 (16:21):
Not in the entire Romania. Yeah, in Transylvania we have
influence from the Hungarian culture. We had interferences interferences because
for more than one thousand years we were under Hungarian
occupation and we have the most important minority of Transylvania
is the Saxon and the Sequi, which are some most
of them Hungarian speaking people. So yes, we have here

(16:43):
influences and interferences. And if you take a look on
the folklore of the Romanian culture from Transylvania, you will
have you will see influences and yeah, this is it.
But for the Moldavian site, for example, you may probably
find some Slavic influences. And in this part like dobro Job.
But the Broja is a complicated story and I would
probably like to speak about it more detailed than another dialogue.

(17:05):
Because the Projact is created by the movement of population
from Silistra and Caliacra, from the two departments of Bulgaria
which were populated with Romanian people, and in nineteen forty
they were forced to release those departments that came to Bulgaria.
So in this moment they moved people from from Silistra
and Caliakra to the Broja, the Romanians, but in the

(17:27):
land they were also Thirtarians and different peoples who already
lived there, so there is a special influence. Yes, we have,
and especially at the bordered zones you can find these influences.
We have influences also in culture from the Ottoman Empire.
We around more than one thousand years in Ottoman Empire
and in the former Kingdom. How we say to Vallachia
and Moldavia because they came before us. They came in

(17:49):
nineteen in eighteen fifty nine to Romania and Transylvania Basbserbian
Bukovina joined it in nineteen eighteen. So we call them
the Transylvanians, call them the Kingdom, the people from the Kingdom,
the ancient kingdom. But if you go to the Kingdom
you can see, for example the influence of topics and
the use of topics like peskesh and the things that

(18:09):
come from Turkish culture. In Romania we have influences from
the In Transylvania we have influences from the Hungarian culture.
I wouldn't know to say if there really are deep
influences from the transfer from the Hungarian culture. In the
Romanian we try to be all Totanus and to have

(18:29):
the originality. But even in the folk dances, for example,
or in the songs. You may find very very beautiful influences.
And I think this in riches the cultures, both of
the culture is not only ours.

Speaker 4 (18:42):
Religiously, you said, of course Romania is predominantly Orthodox. I
we have a Romanian Catholic Church in the United States,
where I imagine it's present. Also do you meagine it's
mentioned the Unions any other religious groups.

Speaker 3 (19:02):
So we have Calvins and Evangelical and in the last
twenty thirty years they had We have a lot of
we call them new Protestants, but in fact they are
also Evangelicals, Baptists, the Pentecostals. They started to come and
to have to build communities in different parts of Romania,
in Moldeva and Transylvania and in all the country. But

(19:23):
the historical, so called historical communities are the Orthodox, the Catholics,
which started like for example, the Catholics were either at
the beginning either brought by Hungarian communities or the Polish
communities in different parts of Moldavia, or in by the
Saxon communities. And also the Evangelical, the so called Lutherans

(19:47):
and Calvins, they came from the Hungarian sites and in
seventeen in oneenty seventeen. It was this Greek Catholic Church
that appeared. It's said the story of the Grec Dicatlic Church,
because it was destroyed, almost destroyed by the Communists in
nineteen forty eight, and they tried to recover it after
the fall of communism, but until nowadays there are not

(20:10):
so many remained, and it's a sad story. And the
Romanian communities that we have the Catholics, for example, they
are a minority, but we have communities of Catholics, and
especially in Bucharest. And you know, it was a certain
moment in the history when people like the Boyards, from
reasons like alliances, political alliances and so on, they joined

(20:31):
to the Catholicism and they stayed and we have beautiful memories.
And during the Communist history, for example, we often speak
about the Greek Catholic sufferings on the Communism, and it's true.
The seventh Bishop of the Greek Catholic Church were in prison.
Some of them died in the prison, like others died
in a form of more open prison, but still in

(20:53):
the prison. The church was destroyed, almost destroyed, and they
tried to recover after eighty nine, the Roman Catholic Church
suffered also because they had bishops in prisons, bishop killed.
There was a beatification. I think of Bishop Durkovic from
yash the capital of Moldavia, who was in prisoned and

(21:13):
killed by the communists. He was a martyr. Martin arn
from Alba Julia was also kind of a martyr. Bishop
Pasha from Timishara. So the Catholic Church was also persecuted
by communists and unfortunately it's it's a problem for everybody
recovering from after the fall of the communism as a church.
So yeah, we have I don't know how to explain,

(21:35):
for example, why do you have a majority of Orthodox
during the history in the kingdom. In the ancient kingdom,
it was clearly the prince was qu Israel Sales Deliga.
The prince was giving the religion of the country up
to the monarchy. So the local princes were all Romanians,
all Orthodogs, most of them in relationship with the Byzantine Empire.
And after the fall of the Byzantine Empire, some of

(21:55):
them were the ones who were thinking that they would
be probably like Petroajh the of Stephen the Great in
the sixteenth century. After the fall of the Constantinople. He
was sure that he would be the one who had
conquered the Constantinople, who released the Constantinople from the Turkish
and who really established the Orthodoxy. So for this reason,
but in Transylvania it was a special situation and it's

(22:16):
it's more complicated. We would probably talk about a few
hours about this topic.

Speaker 4 (22:22):
Do you You said that we have increased contact with
the West and for good and you know how is
how is contact with basically the second the West effecting
different religious groups?

Speaker 3 (22:38):
Well, for example, the contact with the Americas in the
second half of the nineteenth century. In the beginning of
the twenteenth century, there was, especially from Transylvania, a lot
of people migrating to America. It was the famous generation,
the thousands and the road. They were called like that
because most of them came to America worked until they
gained the one thousand dollars and the money to pay

(22:59):
for their row back, and they went back and they
buy properties in Transylvania and they became somehow rich. It
was this idea of the Romanians to not be beyond
the Hungarians, or the Austrians or everybody else. So they
wanted to become rich and to have their properties. But
when they came to Americas, they didn't have the community,
their communities like church community there it was later on

(23:23):
and the Romaniotdocs Church or the Oducs Church from Transylvania,
or the Greek Catholic Church send them priests. So some
of them joined here too, communities like the Baptist ones.
And that's why in nineteen nineteen eleven, especially in the
western part of Romania, you find a lot of Baptist
community because they were coming back from Americas with their religion.

(23:43):
It was easier to practice their religion it as we
was somehow more democratically, and it's so how they started
to the Baptists started to come to Romania to build communities,
and some of them they were also sponsored by the
Americas in building churches. Even I remember in my village
where I came from, after nineteen ninety one, the Baptists

(24:04):
sent money to build a church, a Baptist church in
that small village, although they had about fifty fifty members
of the community. So it's like, yeah, it's so how
the West and influenced the religious part of Romania. And
in the same time after nineteen ninety one. They influenced

(24:26):
it by bringing different ideologies and this wave of being
against religion, being against morals, being pro abortion, bringing all
these stuff that somehow come to say that religion is
something overhand and we don't need it anymore. And yeah,
it's said officially. There are more than eighty percents of

(24:47):
the Romanians who were Orthodox. About ten or twelve percents
were Catholics, and the others are because most of them
belong to a religion, they're autistic, declared datistic. They are
very few, but in reality, from these eighty percents of
the Arthox Church, they are probably ten or fifteen who
go every Sunday to the church, who feel related with

(25:08):
the life of the church, who took take the sacraments
and so on. Because there is dislike the Serbian, like
in the Serbian people, and it's the same in the
Sabian and the Bulgarian, mostly the same. They declare themselves
to be Orthodox. They feel proud of being Orthodox, but
they don't go to the church and probably they see
the prison. They get married, that baptize their child a
few times in their life.

Speaker 2 (25:36):
Enginer with the Communists occupation was there an attempt to
orient Romanian culture towards Russia.

Speaker 3 (25:47):
Yeah, we have even a military occupation of the Russia.
In fact, the Communist was imposed to Romania into twenty
three of August nineteen forty four by the Russian army.
It was not something that was built originally. Before the
twenty third of August nineteen forty four, there were a
few Communists, but they were mostly Jews, not even Romanian.
In Romania. If we take a look on the first
leaders of the communist regime after ninety forty four, Anna

(26:10):
Pauker was Anna Robinson. She was a Jew. So even
those Communists who existed were not most of them. They
were not out of tunnels, they were not Romanians, they
were Jews or something like that. And in nineteen forty
four the Russian imposed the companies to Romania by force
by the army, and there was a military occupation. Gergioudsh
managed to send the armed Russian Army the Red Army

(26:30):
at home in nineteen fifty eight. So all these models
were imposed, and you see the same mechanism that it
was used in Russia. Politicians in prison and killed, exterminated
in different in different penitentiaries, I've studied recent history and
I took part to different summer schools dedicated to the

(26:50):
Communists in the last years before coming to Canada, and
for example, the Rumnicus errat poinitentially was dedicated to the
political opposition. The Sigate Penitentiary was dedicated to the extermination
of the Greek Catholics and some of the National Peasant Party.
So the kind of thematic extermination penitentiary is organized on

(27:11):
the Russian model. The Russian model. During the beginning of
the communism, the bishops that the Greek Catholic Church was forbidden,
and in nineteen forty eight the Concordate was denunciated. The
nun Sahara lived in Romania, but he was always an
endanger and under threat, and then he consecrated bishops and son,
but he always risked his life for this. The Catholic

(27:35):
the Roman Catholic Church was also very affected by this
because the bishops were most of them they were in
prison for a few years, so they were penitentiaries. It
was also this system of re education. Pitch is the
most important of them. You have read about probably about
Stanford experiment, and there are also different other experiments. Is

(27:59):
Stanford extent experimented one thousand bigger scale. So in Petas
they were in prison because they were officially legendaries or
with different religious convictions and forced to become autheistic and
to punish the others who didn't give up yet to
their convictions of of being Christians and legendaries. So it

(28:21):
was an extermination regime.

Speaker 2 (28:23):
There were the.

Speaker 3 (28:24):
Tended people beating the tending people because they were still
keeping Christians and help them with you know, with commas,
forced them to give up with their religious orientation and
with their religious beliefs and feelings. So yes, the model
was Russian. We have bishops poisoned and killed according to

(28:45):
the Russian models priests in the remaining or church during
the Communists period, there were seventeen bishops with route by
the Communists. Two or three of them they were poisoned.
The others died but they they were old or they
had a kind of forced domicil like in the prison
in a monasteri, but the monastery was not they were

(29:07):
not allowed anymore to live like three people. More than
one thousand Artox people in prison during the beginning of
the Communists and the biggest waves of imprisonments for all
the churches and not only for the political opposition. It
was between nineteen forty four and nineteen fifty eight. After
fifty eight, after the withdrawal of the army, it's starting

(29:28):
to be rather calm, and the Romanian Communist Party started
even to allow some of them to depart from Romania
if they couldn't be re educated, and so they reinforced
on how the Romanian exile in parties the do remain
exile in Paris in France existed before, but it was
formed mostly by former diplomatic people who part of the

(29:50):
Diplomatic corp of Romania who refused to come to Romania,
or by the boyars that departed at the beginning of
the communists, knowing that the life in communists Romania will
not be happy. But then starting with the seven decade
of the twenteenth century, there were allowed also people who
had political opinions against the regime, and this somehow reinforced

(30:10):
the Romanian excel from France. Because you asked me about
the Romainian exit from France, your view was part of them,
but your view refused to come back to Romania. In
forty four.

Speaker 4 (30:22):
There was some phenomenon after over too. In Western Europe
culture coca colonization, coca colonization. Where the claim was is
that there was a kind of cultural imperialism in the
opposed and Western Europe, the United States. You know, advertisings
with coca cola one of the things that they basically

(30:43):
characterized it. Since the fall of the communist regime in Romania,
do you think there's been that kind of cultural cultural
imperialism in Romania from the West, from the United States, particular.

Speaker 3 (30:59):
The Communists, the first part of the Communists, for sure,
it was not after the invasion of Czechoslovakia. Chalchesco tried
to come closer to the United States during the Nixon's
reign because he was sure, he was aware that he
needed somebody to protect him in case of a Russian
invasion of Romania, so he tried to come closer to Americas.
And yes, there were things that came, and there was

(31:21):
a moment between probably sixty eight and seventy two when
he started with the July Dizies. Those July Teasies started
the cult of personality. But before there was a moment
of Coco colonization, rather small but not a big impact.
And what the official policy was we produce everything, we
have everything, we do everything, and it's the only the

(31:45):
local values that we take into consideration. During the Romanian communism,
people were wanting and were dreaming to the Americas. They
were buying things like American staff. They wanted to It
was this myth of the American dream during the communist regime.
I remember because I worked with the Civic Academy Foundation,

(32:07):
a foundation which worked to the valorization of the memories
of people who lived during the communist regime. We started
with the people who were in prison for political reasons
and now we use what they stayed with daily life
in the communism. So on. And in more than sixty
hours of interviews that I made with people who lived
in the communist Romania, I found this that they were

(32:31):
always looking at the West as a salvation. There was
always considering west as a possibility to escape. And there
was this phenomenon that you spoke about, which was not
officially but underground phenomenon. You can find it in Romania
between this period, and it was somehow said because some
of them who managed to escape they found that in fact,

(32:53):
it was not like they were dreaming at they came
to for example, here, since I'm in Canada, I interviewed
a lot of people who came like refugees. So they
had this dream coming to Canada, coming to Americas. It
was the life, the heaven life, it was the American dream.
But actually what they found there was in certain points

(33:14):
worse than in Romania. They say, they probably exaggerate, but
there were things that they disappointed them very much. So yes,
there was, at least because of the restrictions of the regime.
They had dreams of the American dream or the Western life,
which is better, and encouraged by some of the some
of their connectioners who who went to France, to Germany,

(33:36):
to Americas for different reasons to conference as revels son
and they came back and they say, oh, it's beautiful there,
because the first impression is always very strong. But then
when they came to live there they find that, yeah,
they it was not always the perfect and the way
of life. It was difficult.

Speaker 2 (33:59):
I have a acquaintance from who of in Slovakia and
under communism, and he's now an atheist and he attributes
that to the communist school and that he received when
he was young. He's probably sixty seven. His death as
that Soviet atheism as I had a lasting effect in Romania.

Speaker 3 (34:26):
Well, in Romania the phenomenon was a little bit different.
I remember I had when I was in Rome, I
had a friend from Czechoslovakia, from the former Czechoslovakia. He
was a Czech and he told me about this, that
the increase of the aetism due to the communist regime
in Romania, especially after nineteen eighty nine, that was rediscoverer
of the religion, because the religion was forbidden in the
public space and the state was somehow keeping the distance

(34:51):
from it, and people who came who had the religion's
convictions were rather banned in the society and punished. So
in Romania it was this situation officially, as we don't believe,
but in fact, if you go to the Eastern Service,
you find everybody, starting from the secretary of the party
up to the last lady the peasant in the peasantry,

(35:12):
you find them at the church. And after nineteen eighty
nine it was like a release in coming to the
church and rediscovering the Christian values. It was officially a
country with the separation between religion and state, but all
the people who were part of the Communist Party baptized,
their children were married at home. The policts were coming
during the night. They were sure that nobody comes. So

(35:34):
this that is, this did not exist, and it was
proved by the events of nineteen eighty nine. Unfortunately, this
that is increased after this moment, and I don't understand.
I don't know why, because since nineteen ninety one we
have a society where religion is it's an object. In school,
we teach it, we have open churches, we built a lot,

(35:55):
built a lot of churches. But still there is a
decrease of the number of people who came to the
church and an increase of the Aetheism, of course influenced
by the West, by the Western values, and by probably
also other facts. But it's interesting compared with Slovakia and Chihiya,
because I also had friends and they told me no,

(36:16):
the Auteism is not something that you find in the
Companist Romania officially as Romania has a separation between state
and the religion. And being people who go to the church,
it is something that can create your troubles, but nobody
wants you to create troubles in Romania. And even Chelchi
School called the priest to bury his father and his
mother when they died adult he was officially an atheistic

(36:39):
and the head of a state who was atheistic.

Speaker 2 (36:47):
How would you compare Romania with your neighboring countries, for example,
especially Bulgaria or Serbia in terms of religion.

Speaker 3 (37:00):
Well, I don't know exactly what to say. I've told
you there are similitudes with Serbians, for example, I was
in Serbian in twenty sixteen. And what strikes means that
everybody is Orthodox. And when you say Orthodoxy, everybody is
very happy and very proud, and yeah, everybody is an Orthodox,
but they if you go to the church, the churches

(37:20):
are empty. So they probably go to the church for
marriage for the day of their patrons saentence on. In Bulgaria,
as some of my acquaintances told me, the situation is
worse somehow, more than in Romania and Bulgaria. The Ordox
church was seen as something imposed by the Russia during

(37:41):
the communist period, and probably it was also used as
a political tool in order to make the Communism to
arrive to Bulgaria. So, yeah, they have a patriarchy, they
have a lot of churches, but they're empties. Most of
them are empties. And they remember when it was the
Panorthodox Council of Crete in twenty sixteen, the Bulgarian Orthodox

(38:03):
patriar Kate refused to join because they said the costs
to go to the Council were too many or too
big for the church they couldn't afford. So the church
is poor. Or if you take a look on the internet,
you will find that from time to time they find
difficult to pay the bills for the electricity in a
certain monaster in Bulgaria. So they have this problem with

(38:24):
having people with having money, and they are somehow striked
by the fall of the communism in Bulgaria. In Ukraine,
it's I think situation is okay. I don't know the
situation of Russia, for example, but I had friends in Ukraine.
The problem with Ukraine is that you have two different
Orthodox churches belonging to different jurisdictions. You have an Orthdox

(38:44):
Church which belongs to the Moscow Patriarchate and recently an
Orthox Church which belongs to the constant in Open patriot
And they don't recognize themselves, and half of the Romani
half of the Orthodox world recognize the new structure belonging
to constant nopelhalf not so here the problem is not
with faithful It's not with faith, but with the jurisdictions

(39:07):
and argues between the heads of the church in matters
of recognition. So I think this is also a matter
of communism, because if we take a look even in
the Ukrainian story, the problem started after the fall of
the Communist after nineteen ninety one, when the former Metropolitan
of Kiev Philarett, wanted to create a patriarchyde in Ukraine.
But he was a man with deep roots in Kigibe

(39:30):
and in the structures of the Russian Orducts Church, and
for this reason probably he didn't succeed.

Speaker 2 (39:40):
What do the various Christian the churches and other Christian
groups in Romania? Is there a is there a vibrant, say,
push back against secularism? How does that work?

Speaker 3 (39:57):
It started to be because we have faced the different
problems that are the same and we as soon as
we share the same values, we need to be together.
I was part in Romania in different movements like the
Focal Art movement, which was not only a Catholic movement.
We had there a lot of friends joining from the
Protestant space. From the evangelical background, we are a lot
of Orthodox, and we were working on topics like the

(40:22):
social problems, the abortion and all the stuffs. They were very,
very represented at the point of view of the discussions
and of the practical actions. So at least in this
moment there is a common front. What is interesting is,
for example, we have among the Orthodox a decrease of
the feeling of trust in ecumenical work. So yeah, people

(40:47):
in the Orthodox Church they are not trusting anymore the ecumenism,
but still they got involved in different ecumenical activities with
social meaning. So if you call them to an ecumenical assembly,
they were probably not come. But if you call them
to pray for the hunger in Africa and to contribute
and to make you know, something practical in order to
help people who were affected by certain points, they were

(41:10):
probably common from different backgrounds, and this is somehow interesting.
We have a fear and the disagreement, I mean we
they have a fear and the disagreement with the ecumenical things,
but if you called them to join for practical reasons,
they will come.

Speaker 4 (41:28):
What is uh gerven Orthodox jurisdictions have varying relationships with
the Catholic Church, in particular the ecumenical patriarchs seems fairly
friendly with with with Rome, be Russia. Lest so, how

(41:48):
what is the what you called me? The ecumenical feeling
between the Orthodox in Romania and the in Rome and
the Catholic.

Speaker 3 (41:56):
Church officially under the level of the head of the
church is very good. Do you remember Pope Francis visited
Romania when I was in Rome in twenty nineteen, I think,
and he was very warmly received, and it was compared,
for example, with the Bulgaria, and they sent him to
the Alexander Nevsky Cathedral to play alone. In Romania there
were a lot of people coming to join the comenical.

(42:22):
Decrease of the mistrust is not related with the Roman Catholicism,
but rather with different spaces from the protest anteria. Because
when we talk with the Catholic Church, we share the
same ecclesiology, the same sacraments, so there are small problems
that must be fixed at the level of the dialogue,
so there is not this mistrust. For this reason, in

(42:43):
Romania the relationship are very good institutionally, but also practically.
In Transylvania, we have communities where you have Orthodox and
Catholic priests, and when is the feast of the church
of the Catholic Church, the Ordox priests goes participates. When
is the feast of their Catholic Church the door Docs Church,
the Catholic prists comes. So the practical level is very

(43:06):
well now. I think the probably the small confusion that
can arrive is that the Catholics find the visit of
the patriarch of the Constantinople like being a representative for
the Orthodoxy. In the Ordox Church, we are kind of
national churches. So the Romanian patriarchy is Romanian patriarchy. If
the Greek patriarch comes to say something is not mandatory

(43:28):
for the Romanian Orthdox Church, for the Bulgarian, for the Shaban,
or for the Russian. So sometimes is this what the
Greeks tried to impose at the level of the dialog
with the ecumenical patriarch. The father of the mother Church
is not the father of the mother Church. It has
only the primacy of honor, not the primacy of jurisdiction.
He cannot come to the Romaaniodox Church and to say

(43:49):
to Patriarch Daniel, what he has to do. So. This
is somehow that can create troubles inside the Orthodox words
and in between the dialogue, because somehow and in certain situations,
it was this that the the Ecomenical patriarchy is perceived
like a pope, is not perceived like a pope. And
it can be seen in the crisis that he generated
in the Ukrainian Church. He created a new church in

(44:11):
Ukrainian but this church is not recognized by on most
of the half of the Orthodox churches, the dischurch led
by Metropolitan Epiphany. So if we take a look on that, yeah,
it's not the same thing like the Catholics and the
Catholics if they want to dialogue with the Orthox churches,
we must dialogue with every local head of the churches,

(44:33):
with every partyarchate in as a form of dialogue. This
would be a point that I find important and it
would probably be drafted on the virtual of future documents.
I had this discussion also with Cardinal Tarkson when I
was in Rome, and for him it was something new. Yeah,
the fact that the Ecomenical patriarchy has we recognized him
as a private honorary primate of the churches, but he

(44:56):
had nothing to do with the jurisdictions of the local churches.
You saw. So he went to the election of the
Patriarch of Bulgaria. But at the moment of the intronment
of the Patriarch of Bulgaria they sent them. Then say
they sent him home because this is a matter of
the internal He has not anything to do with the
internal troubles of the Bulgarian Church. With the internal affairs,

(45:17):
he cannot interfere. There are special situations when he can interfere,
in case of Aris and some but it was not
the case. It is not the same situation with the
historical patriarchs, with the Antioch Alexander and Jerusalem. The ecomenical
patriarch interfered and removed the patriarchy in a from Jerusalem
because of administrative matters. This cannot happen in the new patriarchs,

(45:40):
which are autonomous and auto cephaloso. It's somehow this But
to come back to the to the your question. Yes,
at the level of the institution, we have very good relationships.
As I remember, the Patio Daniel has a very good dialogue,
very fruitful dialogue with Pope Francis. I don't know with
the new Pope because it's just there's a few months
since his election. And at the practical level, at the

(46:03):
level of the communities, especially in Transylvania, when I keep
where I came from, the relations are very good. And
if there is an event of one community, all the
others join and this is I think this is the
most important step that we have at the time.

Speaker 4 (46:20):
Yeah, would you agree about the different jurisdictions. I think
sometimes Catholics. Catholics think that if there is if there
is a unity proclaimed between the if Roman Constantino will
going back in the full community, that's could bring all
the rest of the Orthodox stent. But that's not necessarily
the case.

Speaker 3 (46:42):
Yeah, it's the same problem that you have in the
Econmenical Dialogue. In the Ecomenical Dialogue, and the Protestant community
delegates somebody to the assembly. What these people decide in
the name of the community is assumed by the community.
It is not the case of the Orducts church. A patriarchy, bishop,
delegate of the church can come to this meeting, they
can decide some things, but that when he comes back

(47:04):
that the local church can say, no, we don't agree
with what you decided. So that's somehow that the point
that he should be understood in the ecomenical dialogue, but
it's it's not. For example, at the practical level, we
have very good relationships and with the Roman Catholic Church
in the Bucharest, the patriarch has always dialogue and they
were always taking attending the important events from the history

(47:28):
of the country together. So it's something like very friendly
and wormly and not something institutional, because sometimes we like
institutional things, but they are not the solution nowadays.

Speaker 2 (47:45):
Are the how are the vocations to the pre student,
all sorts of the monastic life in Romania? Are they?
How are they doing?

Speaker 3 (48:00):
You know, we always like to complain that there is
a crisis of vocation in the orduct Church. But in
twenty sixteen I was to Belgrade. They have only one
faculty of theology for all the Serbine Republic and for
all the ancient Yugoslavia, and they have two thousand places
for vocations in the faculty and they cannot fulfill them
all of them. In Romania we have sixteen faculties of theology.

(48:22):
Of course, sometimes they don't fulfill their places that they
have for vocations. But I think at least at the
level of vocation for chriesthood. There is not yet a
crisis for the monastic life. There is a different situation
after nineteen eighty nine. You know, there was a decree
number four one zero for ninety from nineteen fifty two,

(48:42):
when the people were sent out from the monastery, some
of them forced to marry, and anyways they were not
any more considered like being considered like monastic vocations. So
for this reason, after nineteen eighty nine there was a
wave of rediscovering the monastic life in Transylvania. We built
more than three hundred monasteries since nineteen nineteen, in eighteen
nineteen now and in the monastery where I put my

(49:05):
vowels in twenty fourteen. At the beginning in two nineteen
ninety four, nineteen ninety five, there are about sixty monks,
sixty seventy monks. But they took from some of them
from there for another monastery, some of them for another,
and so on, and at the moment they are about
nine or ten monks in the monastery. And there is
kind of creasies of vocation because of that, because there

(49:25):
was a wave, it was probably not exploited at the
time in the proper way and we don't have any
more so many vocations. But in Romania we still have
monastic vocation and for the priesthood. Just considering the fact
that we have sixteen faculties of Orthodox Theology. I don't
know the situation of the Roman Catholics, but they are
also a few of them, and I don't know to
There are few four or five seminaries and all of

(49:48):
them have vocations. And it was for example, the situation
of Petached in two thousand and fifty twenty forty, there
for eight hundred candidates for the places. So there is
no not yet the crisis of crazies of vocation here
in Canada. Only in my parish I have two or
four young people who want to join the faculty, another
four who are already enrolled in different faculties in Romania.

(50:12):
So it's far away from the crisis of vocation. We
just need to know how to use these vocations and
how to help them to develop in order to achieve
the necessary, the necessary, the maximum benefit from them.

Speaker 2 (50:30):
In Canada. Do you find, I know this is a
problem with Orthodox and Eastern Right Catholics. Also, do you
find that it's more difficult yet to to keep from
any and Orthodox as a separate tradition versus the Ukrainians

(50:50):
or other immigrant groups.

Speaker 3 (50:54):
That's an interesting question. Thank you. I'm happy because I'm
in a young community. So the most of the plateful
from the diocesan cathedray in Saint Hubert, which is the
near Montrealities, part of Moreal. Somehow they are from young
from young migration of Romania. They came here after nineteen
ninety one. But in the historical communities like in Boyan

(51:18):
in the western side, or even in the other parishes
which are heav a historical yes, there they are very
well separated and they are somehow one against the other.
You don't go to Ukrainians, no, we are Romanians, because
in the certain points of the history they were. For example,
moments when the Ukrainians from the northern u Povina which

(51:39):
is now part of Ukraine, they came and they tried
to explain them that you are Ukrainian, not Romanian. So
they joined together in the same community. They were for
a while, but they are not allowed to be part
of the parish councils and they separated, they split it out,
and they cape this distance between them and the Ukrainians
in my community is not the case. I have also

(52:00):
people coming from different other backgrounds, from different other cultures.
From local Quebec, I have from Italy. I have Italians,
they are Lebanese coming, Greeks coming. It's not a problem.
And even if we have sometimes we use the tradition
and the cultural aspects. They are not disturbed, and sometimes

(52:21):
they are parts of the liturgy that we do. In
order to accommodate all of them. We say our Father
in all the languages of the faithful, that they are
the time in the church. Usually so yeah, we try
to accommodate them. The point is that we have young
communities here, but where the are historical communities, there is
this strike between them, and there is a problem because

(52:42):
if you are a Ukrainian, you go to the Ukrainian Church.
If you are a Romanian, you go to the Romanian church.
If you are a Greek, you go to the Greek church.
And in many situations they are only very very exceptional
situation when they come from another church because they hadn't
argue with the bishop or with the parish priest.

Speaker 4 (53:00):
That's funny. When my family I belonged to California to
a Ukrainian Byzantine Mission parish, and there was a Greek
Orthodox Church in the city too. A man who was
he had been raised in Ruthinian Orthodox and he started
coming to the Ukrainian because it was close to what

(53:23):
he grew up with. The expressed to this such he said,
I was going to the Greek Orthodox Church, but it's
not right religion. I thought that was curious that.

Speaker 3 (53:34):
Yeah, there are very local patrioties are very strong, even
among but it is not the case with the young immigration.
With the old ones, which are preservating the traditions. They
don't want to lose their values. But now they're starting
to also to move away, to move forward. Because yeah,
it's not like you can always go with that, but yes,

(53:58):
you can find it. It's mostly the historical parishes, but yeah,
you can find it.

Speaker 4 (54:03):
We had Latin Catholics had that phenomenon in American history
with German parishes. You go to older cities and you'll
see it. There was a German parish, there was an
Italian parish, and largely because you know, the collegies and
that sort of thing would be given be in the
native language. But there was that kind of division cultural division,

(54:24):
as well, and there's still some aspects of the life.

Speaker 3 (54:29):
The point for the Romanian parishes, for example in Montreal
area is that like for the ask for us, we
have to substitute somehow also the cultural aspects. So in
many situations, if I speak in French at or or
if I celebrate in French, there will come people. There
are people come to me and say no, please speak
in Romanian. We learned the Romanian or the church. Then

(54:52):
there are different social events that come from the church.
Taking part from the church, they are different cultural associations.
When you're know something, they always call me and somehow
they feel related with the church, although there is something
like dancing, music, eating or presenting a book. So the
church here needs to also to fulfill the need of

(55:14):
cultural identity. Even in the in the we have this
categoric school, the Sunday School. Sometimes we also need to
teach them history of the Rubinion, because nobody teaches them
at home. Parents are very busy with a lot of
jobs because they need to pay for the mortgage, for
the for the houses and so on, so they don't
have time to teach them the history of Romania. And

(55:35):
sometimes we need to do this also in the Sunday School.
But this is because you are a young community. If
if it would be a historical community, problems will be different.
It does not would be probably different.

Speaker 2 (55:51):
Now you've I'm going to actually you've Britain quite a
few things. Would you like to speak to your literary
work and your your intellect ful trajectories projects?

Speaker 3 (56:04):
Yeah, yeah, I think I think I can. I can
also share screen just led me to find a book.

Speaker 2 (56:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (56:14):
I wrote a few things about different Relian representatives of
the diaspora. And for example, among the recent books that
I've published, there is a book dedicated to Andres Krima
which was published by Springer by Springer Nature, this one,

(56:36):
I think you will see it now. Yeah, so the
recent the most recent book that I've published, and it
was released in August twenty twenty five with this dedicated
to father Andres Kima in Secretary Archives. And Reskima was
part of the Romanian diaspora in France, but not only
in France. He lived Romania. In nineteen fifty six, he
studied in Benares in India. He made a PhD dedicated

(56:59):
to the similar tod between Hinduism and Christian Orthodoxy, but
then he went to France, he wrote a second PhD.
And he encountered the comenical Patriarch of costantinopol At Nagras,
who made him his personal archy maendary and his personal
delegate to the Second Vatican Councils in Seconsil in Rome.

Speaker 2 (57:16):
So he was a.

Speaker 3 (57:17):
Notorious personality in the field of the spirituality or the spirituality,
not only the dominie. He was the one who drafted
the documents of the lift top of Anatomas. He was
the one who drafted up the meeting between Patriarch and
Pope in Jerusalem in the sixties. So he was very
deeply involved in this ecumenical life and e comenical realities

(57:38):
in the second half of the twentieth century. And that
was interested about the way how his activity in the
comenical field was reflected in the securitary archae of Securitarti
was the secret police of Romania who was always interested
in the life and activity of people who were part
of the asparas. So he was under Serve Allis twenty four.

(58:00):
From twenty four there were about sixteen people following him
always and interested in all what he was saying, writing
or doing. So I was interested about his background, he's
ecumenical background and the way how he is reflected in
securitary archives. I wrote this book, which is primary was
my master thesis in Stockholm, but then it was improved

(58:22):
and it was published leasts a few weeks ago. I'm
very proud of this because Paga Macguilan is one of
the one of the important, one of the big publishing houses,
and it has visibility, and it already has one book review.
Then another thing that I want to share with you
is something dedicated with Vigilgrgiu. I'm very grateful to your wife,

(58:43):
to miss Innes, who helped me with certain points of this.
Virgil Giurgiu is one of the most important Romanian writers
from the French exile. For at the moment he's translated
in forty languages. The latest translation, to my knowledge, is
the one made by Innes Visuals. You may know her
to Condotia, one of the beautiful books of Gurgu. Girgil

(59:04):
was also a priest. He departed in from Romania in
nineteen forty two and he lived in France for all
his life. He wrote about forty books, and the main book,
the twenty fifth Hower translated in more than forty languages.
Was also screened by the Americans with Anthony Quins in
the Principle as a main character, so I was interested

(59:26):
about him. I also saw his doughs are from Doosias
from the Secretary Archives, and I tried to make a
sociological approach on his work because Gergiul, although he was
a priest, he wrote on topics like communism, capitalist, national socialism.
So this was my thesis from Rome on social sciences,
and it was published by Peter Lang in twenty twenty
two in Berlin. So I think it's enough about me.

(59:50):
I don't want to speak so much about me. It's
not good. It doesn't help the monk to be humble.

Speaker 2 (59:57):
No venue. And as you know, my wife has uh
translated somewhat to Cure You one of his novels, and
is actually looking forward to doing more translation of him
in the future.

Speaker 3 (01:00:11):
She did a great job, and I was very very
grateful because a book like condoc Tierra, for example, here
in Canada, it would not be available for young people
who don't speak any more Romanian at such a level
to be able to read it. But because they have
this English version of it, most of them. They were
very very happy because she sent me the copies and
I put it on the library, and they were very
happy that they could discover your you in a language

(01:00:33):
that they are capable to read. So that's very great,
not only for you and for the Americans, but also
for the Romanian the aspora in the second generation.

Speaker 2 (01:00:44):
That is great. Of course, there's anything more you like
to ask her, say.

Speaker 4 (01:00:52):
That's a good point. You mentioned earlier that you wonder
you were certain my I think said this while and
became su predominant. Dasia. According to Christian Dawson, the English historian,
Daishia was heavily It was one of those areas the
Roman Empire where land was given over to that so

(01:01:14):
there was a huge veteran population and there I guess
Latin language predominant. That it continued to exist through Slavic invasions.
It's kind of amazing.

Speaker 3 (01:01:26):
So yeah, well, Slavic came later because the Slavic Slavic
came to the seventh century and the wave of the
Slavic wave came later. But it's it's related with the migration.
I don't know exactly the history because I'm not specializing
in the ancient history. I'm specializing in the recent history
of Romania. But I think, yeah, you're right in what

(01:01:48):
you say. But I wouldn't say more because I'm not
a specialized and I don't want to go to this literature. Right.

Speaker 4 (01:01:56):
I think Tom disappeared, so maybe I don't know why. Yeah, well,
you know, the ways of the internet are mysterious. We
get We'll end it here then, and thank you for
joining us today on the open Door and hopefully have
you on again in the future.

Speaker 3 (01:02:14):
Thank you very much, and rashul hold of God bless all.

Speaker 1 (01:02:18):
I Hello, God's beloved. I'm Annabel Mosley, author, professor of
theology and host of Then Sings My Soul and Destination
Sainthood on WCAT Radio. I invite you to listen in
and find inspiration along this sacred journey. We're traveling together
to make our lives a masterpiece and with God's grace,

(01:02:42):
become saints. Join me Annabel Moseley for Then Sings My
Soul and Destination Sainthood on w c AT Radio. God
bless you. Remember you are never alone. God is always
with you.

Speaker 2 (01:03:02):
Thank you for listening to a production of w c
AT Radio. Please join us in our mission of evangelization,
and don't forget Love lifts up where knowledge takes flight.