October 11, 2025 • 64 mins
In this episode of The Open Door, panelists Thomas Storck, Andrew Sorokowski, and Christopher Zehnder talk with Matteo Mazzariol on Distributism (October 8, 2025)
For a copy of the flyer for the 1st international course on distributism, see https://wcatradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/1st-International-Course-on-Distributism.pdf
For a copy of the flyer for the 1st international course on distributism, see https://wcatradio.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/1st-International-Course-on-Distributism.pdf
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
You're listening to WCAT radio, your home for authentic Catholic programming.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Welcome to the Open Door with your host Thomas Tork
and co hosts Andrews Rokowski and Christopher Zender. Today we
are pleased to have as our guest doctor Matteo Mattiolo,
who with whom we're going to be talking about the
situation cultural, political and economic in Europe. And let us
(00:29):
begin with our prayer in the name of the Father
and Son Oi Spirit, Amen, come, Holy Spirit, pull the
hearts of your faithful and enkindling them the fire of
your love. Send forth your spirit, and they shall be created.
And you, showing you the face of the earth, let
us spreak well goiden by the light of the Holy
Spirit and instruct the heart of the faithful. Grant that
(00:51):
by the same Holy Spirit we may be truly wise
and ever enjoy His consolations through Christ, our Lord, Amen
of the Father.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
On louisber.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Before we begin, tell, would you could you give a
little bit of background by yourself.
Speaker 4 (01:09):
Please, and yes, yes at the moment, I'm here in Ireland,
but I am Italian.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
I am a doctor and achatrist.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
I have a specialization in pschiatry, which I got it
in two thousands. Since then I've been working in Italy,
in Ireland and UK as a consultant psychiatrist. That's my
kind of professional background. In terms of my other interest,
(01:42):
since I was a child, I was very interested in politics,
in economics, particular in the social doctrine all the church.
So in two thousand and thirteen in Italy Bergamo, I
founded together with another few friends, the Italian distributist movement,
(02:04):
the Movimento Distributists Italiano, following the sort of Chester to
Berloca mcnabba. And since then we've been active mainly in Italy,
tried trying to get a better understanding of the concept
of distribut teams and the above all, try to spread
(02:26):
it and possibly to apply it.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
In practice.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
In so that that's basically my background.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Thank You'll be talking about distributism later on, but I
wanted to start out by by just asking you some
general questions about the European intellectual life. I mean, for
American especially American Catholics, many of us a great profound
(03:02):
generation for the European intellectual tradition, even if it's mostly
just reading and not a lot of first end experience.
So to what extent is the European cultural and intellectual
tradition obviously in both and both the Catholic faith and
(03:27):
the weak philosophy, To what extent is it still a
living force in European intellectual life.
Speaker 4 (03:39):
Well, thank you for this question, which is very big,
very large question to answer. So I will try my
best from my perspective. If you are speaking about the
Aristotalian Tomistic conceptions and what we called the philosophy of
(04:04):
realism or critical realism, so Aristotles Cinicerones, some Thomas Aquinas,
this kind of tradition, I can only tell my as
I say my view. So I think it's still alive,
because there is, if you want, part of the of
(04:26):
the Catholic world who in Italy?
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Who there? They feel very strong strongly that.
Speaker 4 (04:35):
Our tradition, Aristotelian and some Thomas Aquine and tradition is
the fundamental of our civilization. So there are many philosophers
particularly in Italy, but I understand also in UK and
(04:56):
some also in Ireland which they feel that if you want,
the big debate of our contemporary world, which is to
do with economics with politics, are rooted on these basic
philosophical issues, so particularly the realism and the difference between
(05:16):
this aristocelic and the atomistic view with what we call
gniostic view, which is an anti realistic, anti metaphysical view.
So this debate is very strong in Italy, but clearly
(05:37):
only in some groups part of the Catholic society. Another
big part of the Catholic society unfortunately is far away
from this concept, and so they follow as other kind
of philosophy which are more modern, Cartesian, a girl philosophy
(06:10):
transformed in a in a in a certain way, it
do create it through through the Catholic view, relativistic sort
of philosophy. And so I don't know if I answer
to your question, but to make us a summary of it.
In my view, yes, it's still alive.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
They are very.
Speaker 4 (06:35):
If you advanced group who have a very full aware,
a very strong awareness of it. But these are not
the majority among Catholics.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
It's still a minority.
Speaker 5 (06:48):
What is you mentioned the gnostic point of view you've
impacted a bit more pleasant.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
Yes, yes, there is a lot of I'm part of
I know myself a few philosophers in Italy some that
are also part they're also speaking English very well. They
also they also working in USA. One is full Yeody Blasi.
He also published a few books in English sonos Is.
(07:21):
This debate is very strong in Italy. In this group
is basically is not the true know you know. It
derived from the ancient Greek nooseo, which means to know
and there is According to this view, there is a
positive knowledge which is the realistic and there is a
(07:46):
negative knowledge, which is the one which go back to
ancient Oriental culture, which was part of the Christian gnostic
has been also taken by the Kabbalah, which is a
form of Jewish gniostices, which is a thought according to
(08:12):
which man can save himself through this noance, through this knowledge.
Salvation comes from knowledge self, knowledge, knowledge.
Speaker 6 (08:26):
Of the world.
Speaker 4 (08:27):
Everything has to do Salvation has to do with knowledge,
has not to do with revelation or to contact with
a transcendental entity which is God.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
This is the.
Speaker 4 (08:46):
Main concept in summary, so this is considered very anti
Catholic mentality, very odd which can take different shapes, different forms, and.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Has been present in different civilizations.
Speaker 4 (09:04):
Particularly in in Jewish kabbala in our world in the
West and as considered one of the main enemies of
the of the Catholic realistic thought, according to which salvation
doesn't come from knowledge of self, knowledge of the human being,
(09:27):
but it comes from revelation, It comes from contact with
eternal being and through the spiritual past, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 5 (09:38):
It's interesting to talk about the main opposition. I've heard
it claimed, and I think it's probably true that much
the history of Western Europe in particular has had, has
always had this element of narcissism Memmicchianism since chime is
that ours thirteenth century. I even heard a claims that
(10:03):
that Lutheranism has its root a very basic kind of
Manichean narcissism.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Is that it takes now.
Speaker 4 (10:14):
I think in Italy there is a professor is It's
called Annincrianity.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
He wrote extensively about about about news this.
Speaker 4 (10:23):
He had done all the history from the beginning, not
going back before Christ to the Jewish kabal but also
through some Oriental origin in the old civilization Mesopotamia, et cetera.
So these are very old tradition of thought which can
(10:47):
take different shape in different characures. And so what you
mentioned yourself, money caves and the Albigesian cutari cutary is
another form of on giosticism, and.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
It's very subtle it, as I say it, in the
modern one. For example, all the.
Speaker 4 (11:13):
Messianic political ideas like communism, like progressism are considered form
of of noses. So salvation through through knowledge now is
the kind of Messianic uh final goal through through through knowledge.
(11:36):
And you know it's it's very interesting. It gives you
some tool of interpretation of the of the culture. And
it's clearly in in opposition with with a with a
Catholic view in many aspects.
Speaker 6 (11:54):
I have often noticed in speaking with other Catholics that
their way of thinking is not what I would consider
a Catholic way of thinking. At least that's the case
in the US very frequently. Is this gnostissism also something
which is a major force within the Church, or at
(12:14):
least among the Catholic faithful practicing Catholics.
Speaker 4 (12:21):
As I say, I can only express in my view,
not because we speak all the time about the subject
with my friends and my colleague. Most of them they
feel that is to do with, yes, some sort of
infiltration inside the church or what is called modernism, which
(12:44):
is no parious attens describe modern names as the congregation
congregation of all possible Heresists and the Modernists is considered
(13:04):
a form of modern giosticism. And particularly there is a
philosopher who is called Stefano Fontana who is a philosopher
in Italy is also part of the Bantuan Association for
(13:27):
the Social Doctrine of the Church. He wrote a very
interesting book called Catholic Atheism when he says that if
you start to utilize some category of the thought which
are far away from realism and from the philosophy of being,
(13:52):
you don't even realize, but you you start to make
judgment and consideration in a way which is substantially a taste.
And and they speak and all about the practical example
of moral for example, or politics, where according to gniostigy,
it doesn't exist an order of the things. Everything is
(14:16):
continued progression towards the final end, which is a total
nothing or iron soft. So this way of considering morality
or considering politics, even economic, so the absence of a
of a real, objective, natural order of the things is
(14:37):
considered to be to be gnostic and the characteristic also
of modern names. And this if the center inside the
church can affect the church dramatically, it can make very
difficult to grasp the essential truth of of Catholicism, the
(15:03):
supernatural truths. Not they become different, it became difficult to
grasp them properly because you don't have the the the
paragadigm in your mind to get a proper understanding and
to apply in the everyday life.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
In the in the English speaking world, recently, the last
few years, maybe there's been an increasing interest among some
Catholics in her meticism, which is, you know, obviously I
think linked with narcissism in a way as as a
counterpoint to what they see as and I think they
(15:46):
rightly see as some of the deficiencies of Postcardesian thinking.
So but instead of saying looking to Saint Thomas, they want.
Speaker 3 (15:57):
To go back to.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Even medic writings and.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
Similar things like that and arometic. Yes, yes, are you?
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Is that?
Speaker 6 (16:09):
Of course?
Speaker 2 (16:10):
In I know there are some English and Irish writers
who have embraced that. Is that something that even countered
on the continent in other way for example.
Speaker 4 (16:24):
But again Thomas, I can speak clearly for myself, not
as far as I know. As I say, no Italy
catholicis in Italy is very diversified. So uh, as I say,
the Catholic who are who consider Aristotlean and Saint Thomas
(16:48):
Aquina are the main point or reference. They are probably
not the majority, but the one who do, they do
it very sorely, and they they they recognize in all
this form of hermeticisms, of sort of pagan coul to
(17:12):
which go back before Christ. And yes, their expression of
a form of nisis or gniosticism, not because salvation doesn't
come anymore from the face, from hope and from charity,
or for the sacrament of the Church, or from Jesus Christ,
(17:34):
who came exactly for this purpose and told us something
very clear, and but comes from some other tools. And
so the awareness among in among people who follow the
Aristotelic tomistic is very clear. Outside of this group, clearly,
(18:00):
But I don't think there is anyone who is particularly
keen to this direction of hermitives, or as far as
I know, at least, I'm not seeing anyone who is,
at least in Italy, who is particularly interested in this aspect.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
Well, in the United States, it's definitely a force, and
there have been quite a few books published, and the
interest in that rather shadowy figure that I don't know
if you're familiar with Valentine Tomberg, who is a well,
let's just say, a questionable figure. He died I guess
(18:41):
in the seventies, who is often seen as a bridge
between various between Catholicism and kind of gramatic thought. But
to shift gears here, let's talk about the influence of
(19:04):
the United States in Europe.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
Now.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
I know that right after World War Two there was
a big shift because we were seeing as the only,
maybe the only bullwork against communism in Europe, and American
thought began to be very influential, seems to be only
increasing so far. So, uh do you see this as
(19:31):
a as a problem in Europe with the oversized influence
of American cultural and political and economic thinking.
Speaker 4 (19:45):
Well, again, Thomas, this is a very kind of lapsed
subject because there is not one attitude in Italy. So
in Italy is the ideology is still very strong. So
it If you speak with a sort of left wing politician,
they have an idea about USA. If you speak with
(20:07):
the right wing politicians, they have another idea. If we
speak with a Catholic who is more towards modern names
as another idea. If you speak with Catholic who are
following the aristothericumistic idea, they do have again another idea.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
So I can tell what is the idea of the
the one who.
Speaker 4 (20:33):
Follows the riestotericomistic view regarding United States. So, yes, there
is a lot of concern for many aspects because they
are fully aware that the cultural tradition of USA is
(20:54):
not essentially Catholic.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
We know very well the history. We know that.
Speaker 4 (21:01):
North America was colonized mainly by Protestants and by Puritans,
who they were the majority, and we're fully aware this
was not Catholic. This was very different from Catholic thought
from many points of view. And so this wise, also
(21:21):
liberal capitalisms spread very well without any significant reference to
the traditional social doctrine of the Church. One example, for all,
the concept of guilds or Italian. In Italy we call
(21:42):
it corporazion. You know, difficult to translate because if you
translate corporation in USA, it seems something else.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
This is not these are the guilds.
Speaker 4 (21:52):
It's not existing in the American culture because historically in
USA you never had the historic her presence of the gids.
And the view is that, yes, basically USA was the
expression of liberalism from a Catholic point of view, we
know that liberalism is an anti Catholic concept. Therefore we
(22:18):
we we are very critical towards the the mainstream American
ideology which is also linked to consumerism.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
And so.
Speaker 4 (22:34):
That's more or less the thought among the Catholics who follow,
as I say, the Aristuitanian stumistic view. And to complicate
the things in Italy, we have a political party which
was called Democracy Christiania Christian Democracy, which we strongly feel
(22:57):
it was absolutely a modernist party which abandoned the true
social doctrine or the Church, not to create something completely new.
They only had the name of Christian but they were
not They were very relativists and so and it had
(23:22):
the power in Italy after the Second World War for
many years until the nineties, the early nineties, and still
was a big present. So this complicated a lot of
the issues in Italy because there was a lot of
confusion regarding this, and particular among Catholics. So but in
(23:47):
general now not the prevailing attitude going outside the group
of Aristotanian and do Mystic Catholic the attitude is mainly
critical because even the left wing, no, they are critical
(24:11):
from another aspect, and why the right wing probably are the.
Speaker 3 (24:16):
Most philow American.
Speaker 4 (24:20):
And but you need to distinguish the the theory, not
the theoretical understanding, and the politic because there are two different,
hugely different things.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
So the political of the party system.
Speaker 4 (24:36):
Is something which has abandoned any reference to any any thought,
any theoretical approach, is very practical, is very empiric, is
very incongruent. And this is something in terms of thinking
and theorizing. Yes, there they're in Italy. I think they
(24:58):
are the vast majorities. They are critical towards the USA
because they realized what on top of what happened all
the world, which happened in imperialistic world, which happened from
the Second World War. There is a critical view as
regarding the atomic bomb of Nagasaki and Hiroshima, which many
(25:22):
consider a kind of war crime.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
So that's a general.
Speaker 4 (25:30):
Altitude in Italy is not visually anti USA, but is
critically enough. So we do recognize the role that of
sort of liberating us. But even that, as you know Italy, no,
we had a civil war, so some Italian fields this
(25:51):
was the liberations, some other fields this was not liberations.
This was the beginning of a slavery. So even that
is not one present univok in it is not There
is not a main trend, you know.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
But.
Speaker 5 (26:12):
Ideas sentiments are often translated to culture. And I mean
by culture what music one listens to, dress, cuisine, all
that sort of thing is on a cultural level. Is
this United States and its culture attractive to Europeans particular?
(26:33):
Maybe Italians?
Speaker 3 (26:36):
I don't.
Speaker 4 (26:37):
I don't again, so I think now there is not
a monolithic view. It's not black and white.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (26:48):
Clearly after the Second World War we were flooded with
USA cultural influence. Just to same example, all the film
now they came from whole it would so generation generation
of people have been exposed to to this and if
you even if you want the Americal style of life
(27:09):
now with the consumers, et cetera. But I don't think
Italian they they they never went enthusiastic about this. It
was something which was, if you want, in a certain way,
not imposed, but exposed to to them massively.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
By by the big by the TV, by the the
big journal.
Speaker 4 (27:39):
But because Italy is an ancient culture, I don't think
they were they never became enthusiastic. So you know that
in the eighties, No we cruct I was a politician, socialist,
but he he tried also to set some limit to U, say,
(28:02):
USA influence, and this was very much appreciated by Italian people.
So then clearly you can also see, yes, you can
see particularly.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
Above the popular classes that.
Speaker 4 (28:22):
Maybe they're not evolved in terms of cultural thinking or
theoretical thinking. Yes, then you can see the summer, but
particularly not now. Now it's not happen anymore. It was
back in the probably in the sixty seventies it was
the top of the enthusians.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
But I don't know if I answer your question or no.
It's Italian culture is very complex, it's not monolithic.
Speaker 6 (28:55):
It's ironic because in the US, Many, America, and maybe
this is more an elite phenomenon, but many Americans look
to Italy as a source of culture, and there is
so much imitation of Italy and also France and other
European countries, at least among you know, the more educated
(29:16):
sectors of American society. So it's ironically, I mean, the
influence seems to go both ways.
Speaker 3 (29:25):
Yes, No, absolutely no, there is a boss way influence, and.
Speaker 4 (29:31):
I think it's a very complex subject again and since yeah,
I don't know if it happens in the same in USA,
but in Italy until I don't know, until probably the nineties,
television has had a major role in setting up one
(29:51):
line of sort, if you want, no, everyone was watching television,
everyone I was watching the same program. But beginning from
probably the early years of the twenty first century, television
doesn't have anymore this monolithic aspect that everyone looks as
the same program. Now they start to watch different programs.
(30:15):
Some are very critical about the mainstream narrative, but amount
of people they are becoming critical about the main TV channels.
Now they realize that they're not telling the truth most
of the time, or they're telling only a very partial truth,
(30:36):
so they go and try to get information through Internet,
through other sources. Therefore, there is more sort of fragmentation.
Many different views are there's not one one monolithic view.
I think that's my impression. I may be wrong, but
that's my perception of thing. Sinnet is very personal. There
(31:03):
is no statistics, so it's it's.
Speaker 6 (31:12):
You mentioned liberalism. At least are some commentators in the
US and in Europe there is a sense that this
post war liberal order I mean, I'm speaking liberal in
a very general sense.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
You know.
Speaker 6 (31:29):
That this order is falling apart, and that that something,
something is going to take its place. There are, of
course many who are trying to bring it back, you know,
to have things the way they were with US dominant.
But of course the Cold War is over, so it's
a different game now. But there there is a sense
(31:51):
both among liberals and conservatives that the old liberalism at
least is just not producing any new ideas, and that
there is a kind of a vacuum of ideas. The right,
of course has ideas which are not entirely new either.
But the sense that one gets, at least reading some
(32:11):
of the press, both in US and Europe, is that
this is a time when, on the one hand, people
are very concerned that that liberalism has died or is dying.
On the other hand, it is perhaps an opportunity for
new ideas or revived ideas. I'm wondering whether you sense
(32:33):
anything similar happening in Italy or elsewhere in Europe.
Speaker 4 (32:39):
Yes, Kerry, we are speaking intensive sensation, so this is
nothing statistical or nothing. Yes, no, there is a perception
of a deep crisis, So no doubt about it. So
the general perception is a deep crisis of.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
The liberal well politic.
Speaker 4 (33:03):
No, doubt less and less people are going to vote
not only but the vast majority of cities in they
don't attribute any sort of value to the political parties
as the politic as it is now, they lost any faith,
they lost any appreciation, They don't have any more any
(33:28):
author authoritative value for for for the people because they
are not solving the real problem of of the people.
So the crisis of politics and the liberal politic is evident,
and so both in economic and in and in politics.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
As I say so and well, that is absolutely truth.
And I agree that.
Speaker 4 (34:02):
In terms of common public opinions there is not an alternative.
This is why we we strongly feel that distributism can
be an alternative because it is grunted on the natural law.
Basically is granted of common sense and the natural law
(34:23):
and a realistic view of the society and of the
of the reality. And this is why we enthusiastically we
we when we discover distributives of Chesterton, we decide to
bring it in Italy because I don't think in Italy
(34:43):
has a lot of tradition of Catholic thought and economics,
but has never been summarized and synthetized as well as Chesterton,
Bell and Vincent McNabb did. So they did clarify theoretically
(35:07):
the main issues about economics and politics Italy. They did
practice a Catholic way, but I don't think they have
elaborated the thought which addressed the main problem in relation to,
for example, the political parties or the basic paradigm of
(35:32):
the liberal liberalistic economy. So we had the same concept
for example, toniolo Is, I don't know if you know
it was also in Toniolo Is a sociologist believed at
the end of the nineteenth century. He wrote extensively about
(35:54):
the natural social order. He wrote about the guilds, He
wrote about the issue of depths of usury, but it
didn't summarize as synthesize as well as as Chesterton and develop.
I think that's that's my my My view in fact
(36:15):
now is not it's not considered. It's not the thought
of Toniolos. They are not popular anymore. They become part
of his stories. They're not no one is trying to
apply in the present, and.
Speaker 3 (36:35):
So that that's my.
Speaker 5 (36:39):
You know, maybe we mentioned distributism, but maybe for people
who might be listening to you know what distributism is.
Could you like a brief definition of it?
Speaker 3 (36:50):
Yes, very brief definition.
Speaker 4 (36:53):
Distributors basically is economics and politic and money and finance
as if God exists. Basically so it as if God exists,
so as if there is an order in the society
which the right reason can discover, not to invent, not create,
(37:21):
like the gnostic attitude, know that everything is a creation
of the human mind. But the human mind can approximate
to this order, which is in the reality that the
human being.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
Must respect and allowed to flourish.
Speaker 4 (37:40):
So it goes more clearly, more in detail, and it
identified four main point according to us, which are very clear.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
They follow the common sense.
Speaker 4 (37:53):
And these four point are first that the natural family
is the essence of any society, in any culture and
in any time, in terms of natural laws. It's the
way through which a human being can flourish and can
go from a baby to an adult.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
Is a natural family.
Speaker 4 (38:18):
Composed by a man and a woman united in marriage,
which is an eternal vow, as Chesterton clarifying his book
as a superstition of divorce, and the family is not
only a moral entity, but it is an economical entity.
So the family must be economically free. Economically free, it
(38:44):
means that it must become again the owner of the
tool or production.
Speaker 3 (38:52):
The family.
Speaker 4 (38:54):
So because there is no freedom without ownership of opert
in or the tool of production. Very concrete, very practical.
This is not an angelic thought about an idealistic family,
but we speak about the true family.
Speaker 3 (39:12):
And so that's the important point.
Speaker 4 (39:14):
So all economics should point as a main goal to
the well being, independence and freedom of the family.
Speaker 3 (39:24):
So that should be the.
Speaker 4 (39:26):
Direction of all legislation in economics. Help the family to
be free, to be economically free, to be the owner
of the tools of production. That's one essential point. Another
point is very secondary to it, so that capital and
(39:48):
labor need to go together.
Speaker 3 (39:52):
In the same person.
Speaker 4 (39:54):
That's where distributor is considered the main mistake of both
liberal cup ital limbs and social commons. And we consider
this two ideology, not different, but two faces on the
same medal.
Speaker 3 (40:10):
So an ideology.
Speaker 4 (40:11):
We think that it's good that capital and labor are separated,
so distributly.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
Say no, this is against nature.
Speaker 4 (40:21):
We need to try our best to bring together capital
and labor in the same person. And the example of
it is the flourishing of any economy in any latitude,
which happened only when this is happening when the ownership,
the ownership of the tulo production is spread as much
(40:43):
as possible. This is a natural observation, and you don't
need to be Catholic. You need to be realistic to
understand that this is truth. If you do the opposite,
if you think that is good that the capital must
concentrate in a few hands, then you go in the
(41:06):
opposite direction, and you basically destroy the order of society.
Speaker 3 (41:10):
And this is what you have in front of our eyes.
Speaker 4 (41:14):
And then there is the alliance between the two systems
which apparentry are opposite, creating the third byle state, which
according to distributis what we have now. So the alliance
between the big capital, the big money, the big banks
being big multinational, and the big state, which the war
(41:38):
together basically to enslave the citizen, to subtract the property,
the ownership of the tulow production from people. And that's
the trend that we see now in which we're going.
So that's the second point. The third point regards the
political career. How many is the image of God is
(42:05):
supposed to be as free as possible. He must participate
as possible to the not abstractly going to vote every
four or five years but not taking part in any
practical discussion on decision. He must really put in a
position to participate to the all the aspect of his work.
(42:29):
And this can happen only in a system when people
who share the same professions they come together locally and
they discussed together all the questions regarding their work, not
only a few of them, but the most important the
organization of the work, the code of practice, the wage,
(42:50):
minimum and maximum, the previdential or support, the pension. All
concrete aspects should be discussed together by people.
Speaker 3 (43:00):
In the territory.
Speaker 4 (43:01):
So it's a good system, and we need to get
rid of the party system, which stopped at the beginning
of this process. Withdraw Chesterton was telling that the party
system is done on purpose to withdraw any political power
from people in the end of the few other people
(43:26):
who are basically controlled by the big capital, by the
big money. That's very prophetic, but very realistic understanding of
what is happening now. So that's the third and the fourth,
which is probably the most important and the most neglected.
Of all the factor is the one with finance and money,
(43:50):
because if we don't introduce in the society a virtuous money,
so money which is created free from depth, free from interest,
and we allow a creation of a monopoly of the
(44:10):
creation of money in the hand of the few, basically
we lose our freedom at the beginning. There is nothing
else we can do to regain our freedom. And this
is state quite clearly by Burlock and Chesterton and pattern mcnabby.
Not only but all the Catholic thought. If you go
(44:32):
back to the nineteenth centuries, beginning of the twentieth century,
all the Catholic thought was the world was tanding this.
We cannot allow the monopoly of money, of money in
the hand of the few.
Speaker 3 (44:47):
This is going to destroy the society. And this is
what is happening.
Speaker 4 (44:52):
So that's a very it's a big priority according to distributors.
But I think to any realistic, any realistic approach to
economics and politic so this as a four paradigm, I
think the most important concept of distribute teams. They are
(45:14):
very simple, very common sense. They are Catholic, but they
are open also to any human being who is not Catholic.
But he wanted to utilize his own reason and try
to improve was the experience of life and give more
freedom and order to the society.
Speaker 2 (45:39):
One topic I want to bring up before we always
still our time is one that appears frequently in the
US when people are looking at Europe, and that's the
question of immigration, which I know was very controversial, and
even even the facts don't always in one There is people.
(46:03):
So is any thoughts of yours general or specific about
the question of immigration? Is regulation either in Britain or Italy.
Speaker 4 (46:20):
So Thomas, we need to distinguish if you want my
view as the distributives, or if you want to understand
that was the general view in Europe.
Speaker 3 (46:29):
Because okay, so the general view in Europe.
Speaker 4 (46:35):
So unfortunately public opinions is deeply influenced by mass media. Okay,
because you are in this way, you are bombarded in
one direction. Okay, immigration is good, end of the discussion.
So that's what the main the mainstream in tool of information,
(46:56):
the mainstream journals, the mainstream TV chain is there passing
even in the publicity. And now you always see publicity
multicultural with people of different colors, et cetera, et cetera.
So the messages subliminar message you get immigration is absolutely good.
Speaker 3 (47:18):
Okay, there is no contraindication to it. Okay. Clearly this
is not the view of the majority of.
Speaker 4 (47:26):
People because as I said to you before, it's very
multifacet Italy. There are some which are more in the
left right wing, which say immigration is not a hundred
percent good.
Speaker 3 (47:40):
You need to deeply regulate.
Speaker 4 (47:42):
We want the one who are who come here, I
can have a place that can contribute to the world
being of a society.
Speaker 3 (47:49):
We cannot upset the other.
Speaker 4 (47:51):
If you go to the left wing, they say, no,
we need we need to open and destroy any barrier. Anyone,
anyone is welcome, and we need people from an extra
communitary country because there is a denatality, so the lack
(48:12):
of new boards, so we desperately need.
Speaker 3 (48:15):
We need to open all the door. That's very good.
So this has the polarization.
Speaker 4 (48:20):
If you want my view as a distributist view, I
think it's a very common sense view.
Speaker 3 (48:26):
So you cannot be in an extreme.
Speaker 4 (48:29):
You cannot say, look, we close all the barrier, no immigration,
but it must be an order immigration. It must be
an immigration which can bring to the well being or
the people who come here, so they need to find
a job, they need to integrate in the culture, and
they need to.
Speaker 3 (48:50):
Follow what is the local culture. On one side.
Speaker 4 (48:55):
And second, first of all, you need to try to
help the people where they are. For example, in Africa,
it's a huge country. You cannot exploit all the African
country creating poverty. And they say that what you need
to do is to welcome all the African in Europe,
which is not working. You need to get yourself very
(49:18):
active in supporting the culture through distributeings, through the spreading
of the ownership of property. In Africa, and they have
infinite resource from a natural point of view, help them
to develop, have them to buid proper families, help them
(49:42):
to give them the scientific knowledge to improve their resources.
But it's irrealistic to think that all Africa need to
transfer himself in Europe because this is not going to work.
Speaker 3 (49:58):
This is unrealistic.
Speaker 4 (50:01):
And the same people who are pressurized for immigrations, they
are the one who are exploding these people in their
own country because they are the same multinational the same
big banks who are taking advantage or the resources of
(50:22):
these areas. That there's the one the poor populations that
come to Europe. It doesn't make sense.
Speaker 3 (50:27):
It's against the common sense.
Speaker 5 (50:32):
Yeah, it's interesting because we are our immigration states is
of a different sort in any ways, but some of
the same causes are there before the North North American
Free Trade Agreement as nineteen eighty four. I think there's
always been I grew up in California. There's always been
Latin American immigration in California. But it really exploded after
(50:52):
ninety four. And that was part large part because of
the fact that that trade agreement had on prickly small farmers,
small business owners, and so we had this we had
a great way of immigration, and but it was it
(51:15):
was had its causes, and we caused across not addressed.
So it's only only addressed on the receiving side.
Speaker 4 (51:25):
Yes, because all the big immigrations they stem from a
disorder in their own country.
Speaker 3 (51:31):
Look what happened I am in Ireland. Look what happened
with the Irish people.
Speaker 4 (51:35):
They did emigrate to USA because they were starving to
death here in Ireland due to the farmine, which was
very luckily induced by the English, who they didn't bother
at all about the well being of Irish people to
the point that they let them dying. So you know,
(51:56):
I think you need to apply common sense whenever the
reason in in society. He created a disorder and we
spread all around. You need to re establish a minimum
of order and distribute teams.
Speaker 3 (52:11):
No, don't.
Speaker 4 (52:15):
Without introducing a very sophisticated ideology, but try to adhere
to reality. They it calls a general human being to
the common sense, which is inside our own art as
a human being, and simply us to apply this common sense.
(52:36):
So this is why is common sense applied to economics
and politics. This is what Chesterton told And the thinker
is this approach as a big future, because it's you
can suppress common sense, you can suppress reality for a while,
(52:56):
but then human beings tend to become unhappy. And you
see a lot of unhappiness, a lot of depression, a
lot of unsatistation in Italy.
Speaker 3 (53:07):
And this is going.
Speaker 4 (53:09):
This this unsatisfation. No, we don't want to go in
the long direction. That's why the role of distribute teams
is to address this malaise, this suffering, and give a
proper answer through the common sense, which is possible even
from now without waiting the men of providence or the
(53:33):
magic political party, who can all of a sudden resolve
all our problem. That's a very gnostic way of thinking,
unrealistic and the anti Catholic if you want, but anti
humanity way of thinking.
Speaker 2 (53:55):
Well, there's a question that's been puzzling me for a
long time, and if it's not too big a questions,
let me pose it if I may. This is the
reason for the I know that this is connected with
the immigration question. The reason for the low birth rate Italy.
Is it primarily economic or is it a cultural malaise?
Speaker 4 (54:20):
Look, I think I think this is why the disputies
were very prophetic. It's candy, it's multifactorial issues. So we
go back to century. So first, don't forget in seventeen
ninety three. Now the Chapel Ye law they start to
(54:45):
destroy the Gilds started in France and then develop all
over Europe. So first destroyed the Gilds. The Gilts was
the natural community of people where all the important issue
could be discussed.
Speaker 3 (55:01):
Okay, Then what was the god? They got the individual.
Speaker 4 (55:05):
So the attack of the family started from there, because
then through capital limbs, they took the men out from
the family and the men had to go to work
in the public. Okay, then true femininees and the sexual revolution.
They took the women as well out of the family,
(55:27):
so they basically not disassembled the family. And then finally
it went the law for the divorce, which has you
had a huge impact on on the on the on
the family and the sexual evolution again, so that sexuality
(55:49):
was separated by generativity. Okay, that's what that's very gnostic.
That's a very gnostic. So people think they are modern,
but they are not more order. When I think like this,
they are very old because it's the same. There's the
ancient niostic not the body is something substantially deprived of
(56:13):
any spirituality. Is an object, and I can do what
I want with the object. Clearly if you start to
think like this. On top of it, you have an
economic which is the economic of the servile state, which
is deprived the family and the community of any economical
freedom and therefore of any economical richness. So if you
(56:37):
combine all these together from a moral, psychological point of view,
from an economical point of view, here is a family
find difficult to write at the end of the month
to spare money.
Speaker 3 (56:49):
Step by step, you have created a situation where.
Speaker 4 (56:54):
People that cannot generate because they are convinced that the
sexuality is separated by generativity, and economically there is an individuals, so.
Speaker 3 (57:08):
Family is not in Moses. Then the children is something
they don't have a right on their own.
Speaker 4 (57:14):
Abortion. Sorry, we forgot abortion. Abortion is an absolutely major
role in it because how many miniums of human being
has been kid million and million, So if you combine
all these together, no, it's it's really something against humanity
and against catholic clearly. And but you understand it's the
(57:38):
multifactorial issues. But something we always say as a distributis
is keep attention because if you fight the.
Speaker 3 (57:52):
Natality crisis only from a moral point of view, you
are not going anywhere.
Speaker 4 (58:00):
Understand the route also in the economical domain and the
issue of money, until the control of money is in
the end of a few who basically control any human
activity for their own purpose, and they go directly against reality,
(58:22):
against Catholicisms, again the common sense, for their own purpose
from different sources. You can only proceed in this direction,
which is a very nihilistic direction. So the dissolution of
the family, and now we're coming to the dissolution of
the human being as well, because so that's the view
(58:49):
that we have about the process.
Speaker 2 (58:55):
Andrew Christopher, do you have any more questions you like
to bring up.
Speaker 6 (59:02):
I'm sure we could spend another hour talking about many things,
but I thank you for your thoughts today.
Speaker 2 (59:08):
Thank you very much. This has been very interesting. And
let's include with Hail Mary, Father Spirit a very full
of grace the lords with the blessed are the women.
Blesses for Jesus by Mary, Mother of God. Pray for
us sinners now at tell of our death.
Speaker 3 (59:30):
Amen.
Speaker 2 (59:31):
Thank you very much. We really enjoyed it and we
really appreciate your being your guest today.
Speaker 3 (59:37):
Thank you.
Speaker 5 (59:37):
We have one one quick question. Your symbol on your
Distributed Society. It's a dog with a torch. Is that
Saint Dominic's dog?
Speaker 4 (59:48):
Yes, it is the distributist dog, which is said Dominic
God because father McNabb was one of the founder of
Distributors and he was a domin in Can in London.
So this symbol can be read in many different ways
(01:00:09):
because the the black, the the white and the red
they are the color of the ancient tradition.
Speaker 3 (01:00:18):
So it is it is the Dominican dog.
Speaker 4 (01:00:21):
It's one of the interpretations, but it can also be
interpreted in a more wider way.
Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
We used on the cover of that book a hold
of distributism, something very similar. Any of you are familiar
with that book.
Speaker 3 (01:00:38):
Yeah, yeah, yes, no, it is the Dominican go.
Speaker 4 (01:00:43):
But it's also the distributed symbol from from the beginning,
so it is it.
Speaker 3 (01:00:50):
Expressed.
Speaker 4 (01:00:51):
The kill is the black is the dark, the darkness
of a human life. The dog represents the human being,
which is a mixt of white and dark because as.
Speaker 3 (01:01:03):
A human being we are.
Speaker 4 (01:01:06):
Unfortunately, with the original scene, no one can pretend to
be perfect, so there is a sense of humility. But nevertheless,
in spite of this, we need to bring with us
a torch of the light, which represents the truth and
the life.
Speaker 3 (01:01:24):
So that's more or less the symbol.
Speaker 5 (01:01:28):
That's a true practice. I'm a lady Dominican, so that's
not my eye.
Speaker 3 (01:01:34):
Yes myself, I am myself a la Dominican frutier sorry
with fraterless.
Speaker 4 (01:01:44):
Yes yes we are ye are yes yes sorry before finished,
just to tell that if anyone interested to have more information,
we have a website which is it in Italian but
can be translated through Google, which is movie Man to
Distributista Movimento Distributista. So you can find out of Google
(01:02:08):
if you translate distributist movement in Italian through Google, and
then you can find each other because we have an
extensive website with a lot of literature reference books initiative,
and we are also starting a distributist course in English
(01:02:29):
is starting the fifteenth of.
Speaker 3 (01:02:34):
October.
Speaker 2 (01:02:35):
I will ask, I will ask them to question to
put up the notice for that tale. Yes, mess up
to the show. Ye, the notice for that course.
Speaker 3 (01:02:46):
Yes, okay you no, thank you very much. It's been
a pleasure for me.
Speaker 2 (01:02:56):
Well, were pleasure for us. It's a pretty good show.
Speaker 3 (01:02:59):
Thought, yeah, I think so, okay, thanks very much? What
was the best? All right?
Speaker 2 (01:03:07):
Thank you?
Speaker 3 (01:03:08):
Oh bye bye bye bye.
Speaker 1 (01:03:12):
Hello, God's Beloved. I'm Annabel Moseley, author, professor of theology
and host of then Sings My Soul and Destination Sainthood
on WCAT Radio. I invite you to listen in and
find inspiration along this sacred journey. We're traveling together to
make our lives a masterpiece and with God's grace, become saints.
(01:03:36):
Join me Annabel Mosley for Then Sings My Soul and
Destination Sainthood on WCAT Radio. God bless you. Remember you're
never alone. God is always with you.
Speaker 3 (01:03:54):
Thank you for listening to a production of WCAT Radio.
Please join us an omission of evangelization, and don't forget.
Love lifts up where knowledge takes flight.
You're listening to WCAT radio, your home for authentic Catholic programming.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Welcome to the Open Door with your host Thomas Tork
and co hosts Andrews Rokowski and Christopher Zender. Today we
are pleased to have as our guest doctor Matteo Mattiolo,
who with whom we're going to be talking about the
situation cultural, political and economic in Europe. And let us
(00:29):
begin with our prayer in the name of the Father
and Son Oi Spirit, Amen, come, Holy Spirit, pull the
hearts of your faithful and enkindling them the fire of
your love. Send forth your spirit, and they shall be created.
And you, showing you the face of the earth, let
us spreak well goiden by the light of the Holy
Spirit and instruct the heart of the faithful. Grant that
(00:51):
by the same Holy Spirit we may be truly wise
and ever enjoy His consolations through Christ, our Lord, Amen
of the Father.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
On louisber.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Before we begin, tell, would you could you give a
little bit of background by yourself.
Speaker 4 (01:09):
Please, and yes, yes at the moment, I'm here in Ireland,
but I am Italian.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
I am a doctor and achatrist.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
I have a specialization in pschiatry, which I got it
in two thousands. Since then I've been working in Italy,
in Ireland and UK as a consultant psychiatrist. That's my
kind of professional background. In terms of my other interest,
(01:42):
since I was a child, I was very interested in politics,
in economics, particular in the social doctrine all the church.
So in two thousand and thirteen in Italy Bergamo, I
founded together with another few friends, the Italian distributist movement,
(02:04):
the Movimento Distributists Italiano, following the sort of Chester to
Berloca mcnabba. And since then we've been active mainly in Italy,
tried trying to get a better understanding of the concept
of distribut teams and the above all, try to spread
(02:26):
it and possibly to apply it.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
In practice.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
In so that that's basically my background.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Thank You'll be talking about distributism later on, but I
wanted to start out by by just asking you some
general questions about the European intellectual life. I mean, for
American especially American Catholics, many of us a great profound
(03:02):
generation for the European intellectual tradition, even if it's mostly
just reading and not a lot of first end experience.
So to what extent is the European cultural and intellectual
tradition obviously in both and both the Catholic faith and
(03:27):
the weak philosophy, To what extent is it still a
living force in European intellectual life.
Speaker 4 (03:39):
Well, thank you for this question, which is very big,
very large question to answer. So I will try my
best from my perspective. If you are speaking about the
Aristotalian Tomistic conceptions and what we called the philosophy of
(04:04):
realism or critical realism, so Aristotles Cinicerones, some Thomas Aquinas,
this kind of tradition, I can only tell my as
I say my view. So I think it's still alive,
because there is, if you want, part of the of
(04:26):
the Catholic world who in Italy?
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Who there? They feel very strong strongly that.
Speaker 4 (04:35):
Our tradition, Aristotelian and some Thomas Aquine and tradition is
the fundamental of our civilization. So there are many philosophers
particularly in Italy, but I understand also in UK and
(04:56):
some also in Ireland which they feel that if you want,
the big debate of our contemporary world, which is to
do with economics with politics, are rooted on these basic
philosophical issues, so particularly the realism and the difference between
(05:16):
this aristocelic and the atomistic view with what we call
gniostic view, which is an anti realistic, anti metaphysical view.
So this debate is very strong in Italy, but clearly
(05:37):
only in some groups part of the Catholic society. Another
big part of the Catholic society unfortunately is far away
from this concept, and so they follow as other kind
of philosophy which are more modern, Cartesian, a girl philosophy
(06:10):
transformed in a in a in a certain way, it
do create it through through the Catholic view, relativistic sort
of philosophy. And so I don't know if I answer
to your question, but to make us a summary of it.
In my view, yes, it's still alive.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
They are very.
Speaker 4 (06:35):
If you advanced group who have a very full aware,
a very strong awareness of it. But these are not
the majority among Catholics.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
It's still a minority.
Speaker 5 (06:48):
What is you mentioned the gnostic point of view you've
impacted a bit more pleasant.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
Yes, yes, there is a lot of I'm part of
I know myself a few philosophers in Italy some that
are also part they're also speaking English very well. They
also they also working in USA. One is full Yeody Blasi.
He also published a few books in English sonos Is.
(07:21):
This debate is very strong in Italy. In this group
is basically is not the true know you know. It
derived from the ancient Greek nooseo, which means to know
and there is According to this view, there is a
positive knowledge which is the realistic and there is a
(07:46):
negative knowledge, which is the one which go back to
ancient Oriental culture, which was part of the Christian gnostic
has been also taken by the Kabbalah, which is a
form of Jewish gniostices, which is a thought according to
(08:12):
which man can save himself through this noance, through this knowledge.
Salvation comes from knowledge self, knowledge, knowledge.
Speaker 6 (08:26):
Of the world.
Speaker 4 (08:27):
Everything has to do Salvation has to do with knowledge,
has not to do with revelation or to contact with
a transcendental entity which is God.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
This is the.
Speaker 4 (08:46):
Main concept in summary, so this is considered very anti
Catholic mentality, very odd which can take different shapes, different forms, and.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Has been present in different civilizations.
Speaker 4 (09:04):
Particularly in in Jewish kabbala in our world in the
West and as considered one of the main enemies of
the of the Catholic realistic thought, according to which salvation
doesn't come from knowledge of self, knowledge of the human being,
(09:27):
but it comes from revelation, It comes from contact with
eternal being and through the spiritual past, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 5 (09:38):
It's interesting to talk about the main opposition. I've heard
it claimed, and I think it's probably true that much
the history of Western Europe in particular has had, has
always had this element of narcissism Memmicchianism since chime is
that ours thirteenth century. I even heard a claims that
(10:03):
that Lutheranism has its root a very basic kind of
Manichean narcissism.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Is that it takes now.
Speaker 4 (10:14):
I think in Italy there is a professor is It's
called Annincrianity.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
He wrote extensively about about about news this.
Speaker 4 (10:23):
He had done all the history from the beginning, not
going back before Christ to the Jewish kabal but also
through some Oriental origin in the old civilization Mesopotamia, et cetera.
So these are very old tradition of thought which can
(10:47):
take different shape in different characures. And so what you
mentioned yourself, money caves and the Albigesian cutari cutary is
another form of on giosticism, and.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
It's very subtle it, as I say it, in the
modern one. For example, all the.
Speaker 4 (11:13):
Messianic political ideas like communism, like progressism are considered form
of of noses. So salvation through through knowledge now is
the kind of Messianic uh final goal through through through knowledge.
(11:36):
And you know it's it's very interesting. It gives you
some tool of interpretation of the of the culture. And
it's clearly in in opposition with with a with a
Catholic view in many aspects.
Speaker 6 (11:54):
I have often noticed in speaking with other Catholics that
their way of thinking is not what I would consider
a Catholic way of thinking. At least that's the case
in the US very frequently. Is this gnostissism also something
which is a major force within the Church, or at
(12:14):
least among the Catholic faithful practicing Catholics.
Speaker 4 (12:21):
As I say, I can only express in my view,
not because we speak all the time about the subject
with my friends and my colleague. Most of them they
feel that is to do with, yes, some sort of
infiltration inside the church or what is called modernism, which
(12:44):
is no parious attens describe modern names as the congregation
congregation of all possible Heresists and the Modernists is considered
(13:04):
a form of modern giosticism. And particularly there is a
philosopher who is called Stefano Fontana who is a philosopher
in Italy is also part of the Bantuan Association for
(13:27):
the Social Doctrine of the Church. He wrote a very
interesting book called Catholic Atheism when he says that if
you start to utilize some category of the thought which
are far away from realism and from the philosophy of being,
(13:52):
you don't even realize, but you you start to make
judgment and consideration in a way which is substantially a taste.
And and they speak and all about the practical example
of moral for example, or politics, where according to gniostigy,
it doesn't exist an order of the things. Everything is
(14:16):
continued progression towards the final end, which is a total
nothing or iron soft. So this way of considering morality
or considering politics, even economic, so the absence of a
of a real, objective, natural order of the things is
(14:37):
considered to be to be gnostic and the characteristic also
of modern names. And this if the center inside the
church can affect the church dramatically, it can make very
difficult to grasp the essential truth of of Catholicism, the
(15:03):
supernatural truths. Not they become different, it became difficult to
grasp them properly because you don't have the the the
paragadigm in your mind to get a proper understanding and
to apply in the everyday life.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
In the in the English speaking world, recently, the last
few years, maybe there's been an increasing interest among some
Catholics in her meticism, which is, you know, obviously I
think linked with narcissism in a way as as a
counterpoint to what they see as and I think they
(15:46):
rightly see as some of the deficiencies of Postcardesian thinking.
So but instead of saying looking to Saint Thomas, they want.
Speaker 3 (15:57):
To go back to.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Even medic writings and.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
Similar things like that and arometic. Yes, yes, are you?
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Is that?
Speaker 6 (16:09):
Of course?
Speaker 2 (16:10):
In I know there are some English and Irish writers
who have embraced that. Is that something that even countered
on the continent in other way for example.
Speaker 4 (16:24):
But again Thomas, I can speak clearly for myself, not
as far as I know. As I say, no Italy
catholicis in Italy is very diversified. So uh, as I say,
the Catholic who are who consider Aristotlean and Saint Thomas
(16:48):
Aquina are the main point or reference. They are probably
not the majority, but the one who do, they do
it very sorely, and they they they recognize in all
this form of hermeticisms, of sort of pagan coul to
(17:12):
which go back before Christ. And yes, their expression of
a form of nisis or gniosticism, not because salvation doesn't
come anymore from the face, from hope and from charity,
or for the sacrament of the Church, or from Jesus Christ,
(17:34):
who came exactly for this purpose and told us something
very clear, and but comes from some other tools. And
so the awareness among in among people who follow the
Aristotelic tomistic is very clear. Outside of this group, clearly,
(18:00):
But I don't think there is anyone who is particularly
keen to this direction of hermitives, or as far as
I know, at least, I'm not seeing anyone who is,
at least in Italy, who is particularly interested in this aspect.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
Well, in the United States, it's definitely a force, and
there have been quite a few books published, and the
interest in that rather shadowy figure that I don't know
if you're familiar with Valentine Tomberg, who is a well,
let's just say, a questionable figure. He died I guess
(18:41):
in the seventies, who is often seen as a bridge
between various between Catholicism and kind of gramatic thought. But
to shift gears here, let's talk about the influence of
(19:04):
the United States in Europe.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
Now.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
I know that right after World War Two there was
a big shift because we were seeing as the only,
maybe the only bullwork against communism in Europe, and American
thought began to be very influential, seems to be only
increasing so far. So, uh do you see this as
(19:31):
a as a problem in Europe with the oversized influence
of American cultural and political and economic thinking.
Speaker 4 (19:45):
Well, again, Thomas, this is a very kind of lapsed
subject because there is not one attitude in Italy. So
in Italy is the ideology is still very strong. So
it If you speak with a sort of left wing politician,
they have an idea about USA. If you speak with
(20:07):
the right wing politicians, they have another idea. If we
speak with a Catholic who is more towards modern names
as another idea. If you speak with Catholic who are
following the aristothericumistic idea, they do have again another idea.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
So I can tell what is the idea of the
the one who.
Speaker 4 (20:33):
Follows the riestotericomistic view regarding United States. So, yes, there
is a lot of concern for many aspects because they
are fully aware that the cultural tradition of USA is
(20:54):
not essentially Catholic.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
We know very well the history. We know that.
Speaker 4 (21:01):
North America was colonized mainly by Protestants and by Puritans,
who they were the majority, and we're fully aware this
was not Catholic. This was very different from Catholic thought
from many points of view. And so this wise, also
(21:21):
liberal capitalisms spread very well without any significant reference to
the traditional social doctrine of the Church. One example, for all,
the concept of guilds or Italian. In Italy we call
(21:42):
it corporazion. You know, difficult to translate because if you
translate corporation in USA, it seems something else.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
This is not these are the guilds.
Speaker 4 (21:52):
It's not existing in the American culture because historically in
USA you never had the historic her presence of the gids.
And the view is that, yes, basically USA was the
expression of liberalism from a Catholic point of view, we
know that liberalism is an anti Catholic concept. Therefore we
(22:18):
we we are very critical towards the the mainstream American
ideology which is also linked to consumerism.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
And so.
Speaker 4 (22:34):
That's more or less the thought among the Catholics who follow,
as I say, the Aristuitanian stumistic view. And to complicate
the things in Italy, we have a political party which
was called Democracy Christiania Christian Democracy, which we strongly feel
(22:57):
it was absolutely a modernist party which abandoned the true
social doctrine or the Church, not to create something completely new.
They only had the name of Christian but they were
not They were very relativists and so and it had
(23:22):
the power in Italy after the Second World War for
many years until the nineties, the early nineties, and still
was a big present. So this complicated a lot of
the issues in Italy because there was a lot of
confusion regarding this, and particular among Catholics. So but in
(23:47):
general now not the prevailing attitude going outside the group
of Aristotanian and do Mystic Catholic the attitude is mainly
critical because even the left wing, no, they are critical
(24:11):
from another aspect, and why the right wing probably are the.
Speaker 3 (24:16):
Most philow American.
Speaker 4 (24:20):
And but you need to distinguish the the theory, not
the theoretical understanding, and the politic because there are two different,
hugely different things.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
So the political of the party system.
Speaker 4 (24:36):
Is something which has abandoned any reference to any any thought,
any theoretical approach, is very practical, is very empiric, is
very incongruent. And this is something in terms of thinking
and theorizing. Yes, there they're in Italy. I think they
(24:58):
are the vast majorities. They are critical towards the USA
because they realized what on top of what happened all
the world, which happened in imperialistic world, which happened from
the Second World War. There is a critical view as
regarding the atomic bomb of Nagasaki and Hiroshima, which many
(25:22):
consider a kind of war crime.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
So that's a general.
Speaker 4 (25:30):
Altitude in Italy is not visually anti USA, but is
critically enough. So we do recognize the role that of
sort of liberating us. But even that, as you know Italy, no,
we had a civil war, so some Italian fields this
(25:51):
was the liberations, some other fields this was not liberations.
This was the beginning of a slavery. So even that
is not one present univok in it is not There
is not a main trend, you know.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
But.
Speaker 5 (26:12):
Ideas sentiments are often translated to culture. And I mean
by culture what music one listens to, dress, cuisine, all
that sort of thing is on a cultural level. Is
this United States and its culture attractive to Europeans particular?
(26:33):
Maybe Italians?
Speaker 3 (26:36):
I don't.
Speaker 4 (26:37):
I don't again, so I think now there is not
a monolithic view. It's not black and white.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (26:48):
Clearly after the Second World War we were flooded with
USA cultural influence. Just to same example, all the film
now they came from whole it would so generation generation
of people have been exposed to to this and if
you even if you want the Americal style of life
(27:09):
now with the consumers, et cetera. But I don't think
Italian they they they never went enthusiastic about this. It
was something which was, if you want, in a certain way,
not imposed, but exposed to to them massively.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
By by the big by the TV, by the the
big journal.
Speaker 4 (27:39):
But because Italy is an ancient culture, I don't think
they were they never became enthusiastic. So you know that
in the eighties, No we cruct I was a politician, socialist,
but he he tried also to set some limit to U, say,
(28:02):
USA influence, and this was very much appreciated by Italian people.
So then clearly you can also see, yes, you can
see particularly.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
Above the popular classes that.
Speaker 4 (28:22):
Maybe they're not evolved in terms of cultural thinking or
theoretical thinking. Yes, then you can see the summer, but
particularly not now. Now it's not happen anymore. It was
back in the probably in the sixty seventies it was
the top of the enthusians.
Speaker 3 (28:43):
But I don't know if I answer your question or no.
It's Italian culture is very complex, it's not monolithic.
Speaker 6 (28:55):
It's ironic because in the US, Many, America, and maybe
this is more an elite phenomenon, but many Americans look
to Italy as a source of culture, and there is
so much imitation of Italy and also France and other
European countries, at least among you know, the more educated
(29:16):
sectors of American society. So it's ironically, I mean, the
influence seems to go both ways.
Speaker 3 (29:25):
Yes, No, absolutely no, there is a boss way influence, and.
Speaker 4 (29:31):
I think it's a very complex subject again and since yeah,
I don't know if it happens in the same in USA,
but in Italy until I don't know, until probably the nineties,
television has had a major role in setting up one
(29:51):
line of sort, if you want, no, everyone was watching television,
everyone I was watching the same program. But beginning from
probably the early years of the twenty first century, television
doesn't have anymore this monolithic aspect that everyone looks as
the same program. Now they start to watch different programs.
(30:15):
Some are very critical about the mainstream narrative, but amount
of people they are becoming critical about the main TV channels.
Now they realize that they're not telling the truth most
of the time, or they're telling only a very partial truth,
(30:36):
so they go and try to get information through Internet,
through other sources. Therefore, there is more sort of fragmentation.
Many different views are there's not one one monolithic view.
I think that's my impression. I may be wrong, but
that's my perception of thing. Sinnet is very personal. There
(31:03):
is no statistics, so it's it's.
Speaker 6 (31:12):
You mentioned liberalism. At least are some commentators in the
US and in Europe there is a sense that this
post war liberal order I mean, I'm speaking liberal in
a very general sense.
Speaker 2 (31:27):
You know.
Speaker 6 (31:29):
That this order is falling apart, and that that something,
something is going to take its place. There are, of
course many who are trying to bring it back, you know,
to have things the way they were with US dominant.
But of course the Cold War is over, so it's
a different game now. But there there is a sense
(31:51):
both among liberals and conservatives that the old liberalism at
least is just not producing any new ideas, and that
there is a kind of a vacuum of ideas. The right,
of course has ideas which are not entirely new either.
But the sense that one gets, at least reading some
(32:11):
of the press, both in US and Europe, is that
this is a time when, on the one hand, people
are very concerned that that liberalism has died or is dying.
On the other hand, it is perhaps an opportunity for
new ideas or revived ideas. I'm wondering whether you sense
(32:33):
anything similar happening in Italy or elsewhere in Europe.
Speaker 4 (32:39):
Yes, Kerry, we are speaking intensive sensation, so this is
nothing statistical or nothing. Yes, no, there is a perception
of a deep crisis, So no doubt about it. So
the general perception is a deep crisis of.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
The liberal well politic.
Speaker 4 (33:03):
No, doubt less and less people are going to vote
not only but the vast majority of cities in they
don't attribute any sort of value to the political parties
as the politic as it is now, they lost any faith,
they lost any appreciation, They don't have any more any
(33:28):
author authoritative value for for for the people because they
are not solving the real problem of of the people.
So the crisis of politics and the liberal politic is evident,
and so both in economic and in and in politics.
Speaker 3 (33:53):
As I say so and well, that is absolutely truth.
And I agree that.
Speaker 4 (34:02):
In terms of common public opinions there is not an alternative.
This is why we we strongly feel that distributism can
be an alternative because it is grunted on the natural law.
Basically is granted of common sense and the natural law
(34:23):
and a realistic view of the society and of the
of the reality. And this is why we enthusiastically we
we when we discover distributives of Chesterton, we decide to
bring it in Italy because I don't think in Italy
(34:43):
has a lot of tradition of Catholic thought and economics,
but has never been summarized and synthetized as well as Chesterton,
Bell and Vincent McNabb did. So they did clarify theoretically
(35:07):
the main issues about economics and politics Italy. They did
practice a Catholic way, but I don't think they have
elaborated the thought which addressed the main problem in relation to,
for example, the political parties or the basic paradigm of
(35:32):
the liberal liberalistic economy. So we had the same concept
for example, toniolo Is, I don't know if you know
it was also in Toniolo Is a sociologist believed at
the end of the nineteenth century. He wrote extensively about
(35:54):
the natural social order. He wrote about the guilds, He
wrote about the issue of depths of usury, but it
didn't summarize as synthesize as well as as Chesterton and develop.
I think that's that's my my My view in fact
(36:15):
now is not it's not considered. It's not the thought
of Toniolos. They are not popular anymore. They become part
of his stories. They're not no one is trying to
apply in the present, and.
Speaker 3 (36:35):
So that that's my.
Speaker 5 (36:39):
You know, maybe we mentioned distributism, but maybe for people
who might be listening to you know what distributism is.
Could you like a brief definition of it?
Speaker 3 (36:50):
Yes, very brief definition.
Speaker 4 (36:53):
Distributors basically is economics and politic and money and finance
as if God exists. Basically so it as if God exists,
so as if there is an order in the society
which the right reason can discover, not to invent, not create,
(37:21):
like the gnostic attitude, know that everything is a creation
of the human mind. But the human mind can approximate
to this order, which is in the reality that the
human being.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
Must respect and allowed to flourish.
Speaker 4 (37:40):
So it goes more clearly, more in detail, and it
identified four main point according to us, which are very clear.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
They follow the common sense.
Speaker 4 (37:53):
And these four point are first that the natural family
is the essence of any society, in any culture and
in any time, in terms of natural laws. It's the
way through which a human being can flourish and can
go from a baby to an adult.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
Is a natural family.
Speaker 4 (38:18):
Composed by a man and a woman united in marriage,
which is an eternal vow, as Chesterton clarifying his book
as a superstition of divorce, and the family is not
only a moral entity, but it is an economical entity.
So the family must be economically free. Economically free, it
(38:44):
means that it must become again the owner of the
tool or production.
Speaker 3 (38:52):
The family.
Speaker 4 (38:54):
So because there is no freedom without ownership of opert
in or the tool of production. Very concrete, very practical.
This is not an angelic thought about an idealistic family,
but we speak about the true family.
Speaker 3 (39:12):
And so that's the important point.
Speaker 4 (39:14):
So all economics should point as a main goal to
the well being, independence and freedom of the family.
Speaker 3 (39:24):
So that should be the.
Speaker 4 (39:26):
Direction of all legislation in economics. Help the family to
be free, to be economically free, to be the owner
of the tools of production. That's one essential point. Another
point is very secondary to it, so that capital and
(39:48):
labor need to go together.
Speaker 3 (39:52):
In the same person.
Speaker 4 (39:54):
That's where distributor is considered the main mistake of both
liberal cup ital limbs and social commons. And we consider
this two ideology, not different, but two faces on the
same medal.
Speaker 3 (40:10):
So an ideology.
Speaker 4 (40:11):
We think that it's good that capital and labor are separated,
so distributly.
Speaker 3 (40:19):
Say no, this is against nature.
Speaker 4 (40:21):
We need to try our best to bring together capital
and labor in the same person. And the example of
it is the flourishing of any economy in any latitude,
which happened only when this is happening when the ownership,
the ownership of the tulo production is spread as much
(40:43):
as possible. This is a natural observation, and you don't
need to be Catholic. You need to be realistic to
understand that this is truth. If you do the opposite,
if you think that is good that the capital must
concentrate in a few hands, then you go in the
(41:06):
opposite direction, and you basically destroy the order of society.
Speaker 3 (41:10):
And this is what you have in front of our eyes.
Speaker 4 (41:14):
And then there is the alliance between the two systems
which apparentry are opposite, creating the third byle state, which
according to distributis what we have now. So the alliance
between the big capital, the big money, the big banks
being big multinational, and the big state, which the war
(41:38):
together basically to enslave the citizen, to subtract the property,
the ownership of the tulow production from people. And that's
the trend that we see now in which we're going.
So that's the second point. The third point regards the
political career. How many is the image of God is
(42:05):
supposed to be as free as possible. He must participate
as possible to the not abstractly going to vote every
four or five years but not taking part in any
practical discussion on decision. He must really put in a
position to participate to the all the aspect of his work.
(42:29):
And this can happen only in a system when people
who share the same professions they come together locally and
they discussed together all the questions regarding their work, not
only a few of them, but the most important the
organization of the work, the code of practice, the wage,
(42:50):
minimum and maximum, the previdential or support, the pension. All
concrete aspects should be discussed together by people.
Speaker 3 (43:00):
In the territory.
Speaker 4 (43:01):
So it's a good system, and we need to get
rid of the party system, which stopped at the beginning
of this process. Withdraw Chesterton was telling that the party
system is done on purpose to withdraw any political power
from people in the end of the few other people
(43:26):
who are basically controlled by the big capital, by the
big money. That's very prophetic, but very realistic understanding of
what is happening now. So that's the third and the fourth,
which is probably the most important and the most neglected.
Of all the factor is the one with finance and money,
(43:50):
because if we don't introduce in the society a virtuous money,
so money which is created free from depth, free from interest,
and we allow a creation of a monopoly of the
(44:10):
creation of money in the hand of the few, basically
we lose our freedom at the beginning. There is nothing
else we can do to regain our freedom. And this
is state quite clearly by Burlock and Chesterton and pattern mcnabby.
Not only but all the Catholic thought. If you go
(44:32):
back to the nineteenth centuries, beginning of the twentieth century,
all the Catholic thought was the world was tanding this.
We cannot allow the monopoly of money, of money in
the hand of the few.
Speaker 3 (44:47):
This is going to destroy the society. And this is
what is happening.
Speaker 4 (44:52):
So that's a very it's a big priority according to distributors.
But I think to any realistic, any realistic approach to
economics and politic so this as a four paradigm, I
think the most important concept of distribute teams. They are
(45:14):
very simple, very common sense. They are Catholic, but they
are open also to any human being who is not Catholic.
But he wanted to utilize his own reason and try
to improve was the experience of life and give more
freedom and order to the society.
Speaker 2 (45:39):
One topic I want to bring up before we always
still our time is one that appears frequently in the
US when people are looking at Europe, and that's the
question of immigration, which I know was very controversial, and
even even the facts don't always in one There is people.
(46:03):
So is any thoughts of yours general or specific about
the question of immigration? Is regulation either in Britain or Italy.
Speaker 4 (46:20):
So Thomas, we need to distinguish if you want my
view as the distributives, or if you want to understand
that was the general view in Europe.
Speaker 3 (46:29):
Because okay, so the general view in Europe.
Speaker 4 (46:35):
So unfortunately public opinions is deeply influenced by mass media. Okay,
because you are in this way, you are bombarded in
one direction. Okay, immigration is good, end of the discussion.
So that's what the main the mainstream in tool of information,
(46:56):
the mainstream journals, the mainstream TV chain is there passing
even in the publicity. And now you always see publicity
multicultural with people of different colors, et cetera, et cetera.
So the messages subliminar message you get immigration is absolutely good.
Speaker 3 (47:18):
Okay, there is no contraindication to it. Okay. Clearly this
is not the view of the majority of.
Speaker 4 (47:26):
People because as I said to you before, it's very
multifacet Italy. There are some which are more in the
left right wing, which say immigration is not a hundred
percent good.
Speaker 3 (47:40):
You need to deeply regulate.
Speaker 4 (47:42):
We want the one who are who come here, I
can have a place that can contribute to the world
being of a society.
Speaker 3 (47:49):
We cannot upset the other.
Speaker 4 (47:51):
If you go to the left wing, they say, no,
we need we need to open and destroy any barrier. Anyone,
anyone is welcome, and we need people from an extra
communitary country because there is a denatality, so the lack
(48:12):
of new boards, so we desperately need.
Speaker 3 (48:15):
We need to open all the door. That's very good.
So this has the polarization.
Speaker 4 (48:20):
If you want my view as a distributist view, I
think it's a very common sense view.
Speaker 3 (48:26):
So you cannot be in an extreme.
Speaker 4 (48:29):
You cannot say, look, we close all the barrier, no immigration,
but it must be an order immigration. It must be
an immigration which can bring to the well being or
the people who come here, so they need to find
a job, they need to integrate in the culture, and
they need to.
Speaker 3 (48:50):
Follow what is the local culture. On one side.
Speaker 4 (48:55):
And second, first of all, you need to try to
help the people where they are. For example, in Africa,
it's a huge country. You cannot exploit all the African
country creating poverty. And they say that what you need
to do is to welcome all the African in Europe,
which is not working. You need to get yourself very
(49:18):
active in supporting the culture through distributeings, through the spreading
of the ownership of property. In Africa, and they have
infinite resource from a natural point of view, help them
to develop, have them to buid proper families, help them
(49:42):
to give them the scientific knowledge to improve their resources.
But it's irrealistic to think that all Africa need to
transfer himself in Europe because this is not going to work.
Speaker 3 (49:58):
This is unrealistic.
Speaker 4 (50:01):
And the same people who are pressurized for immigrations, they
are the one who are exploding these people in their
own country because they are the same multinational the same
big banks who are taking advantage or the resources of
(50:22):
these areas. That there's the one the poor populations that
come to Europe. It doesn't make sense.
Speaker 3 (50:27):
It's against the common sense.
Speaker 5 (50:32):
Yeah, it's interesting because we are our immigration states is
of a different sort in any ways, but some of
the same causes are there before the North North American
Free Trade Agreement as nineteen eighty four. I think there's
always been I grew up in California. There's always been
Latin American immigration in California. But it really exploded after
(50:52):
ninety four. And that was part large part because of
the fact that that trade agreement had on prickly small farmers,
small business owners, and so we had this we had
a great way of immigration, and but it was it
(51:15):
was had its causes, and we caused across not addressed.
So it's only only addressed on the receiving side.
Speaker 4 (51:25):
Yes, because all the big immigrations they stem from a
disorder in their own country.
Speaker 3 (51:31):
Look what happened I am in Ireland. Look what happened
with the Irish people.
Speaker 4 (51:35):
They did emigrate to USA because they were starving to
death here in Ireland due to the farmine, which was
very luckily induced by the English, who they didn't bother
at all about the well being of Irish people to
the point that they let them dying. So you know,
(51:56):
I think you need to apply common sense whenever the
reason in in society. He created a disorder and we
spread all around. You need to re establish a minimum
of order and distribute teams.
Speaker 3 (52:11):
No, don't.
Speaker 4 (52:15):
Without introducing a very sophisticated ideology, but try to adhere
to reality. They it calls a general human being to
the common sense, which is inside our own art as
a human being, and simply us to apply this common sense.
(52:36):
So this is why is common sense applied to economics
and politics. This is what Chesterton told And the thinker
is this approach as a big future, because it's you
can suppress common sense, you can suppress reality for a while,
(52:56):
but then human beings tend to become unhappy. And you
see a lot of unhappiness, a lot of depression, a
lot of unsatistation in Italy.
Speaker 3 (53:07):
And this is going.
Speaker 4 (53:09):
This this unsatisfation. No, we don't want to go in
the long direction. That's why the role of distribute teams
is to address this malaise, this suffering, and give a
proper answer through the common sense, which is possible even
from now without waiting the men of providence or the
(53:33):
magic political party, who can all of a sudden resolve
all our problem. That's a very gnostic way of thinking,
unrealistic and the anti Catholic if you want, but anti
humanity way of thinking.
Speaker 2 (53:55):
Well, there's a question that's been puzzling me for a
long time, and if it's not too big a questions,
let me pose it if I may. This is the
reason for the I know that this is connected with
the immigration question. The reason for the low birth rate Italy.
Is it primarily economic or is it a cultural malaise?
Speaker 4 (54:20):
Look, I think I think this is why the disputies
were very prophetic. It's candy, it's multifactorial issues. So we
go back to century. So first, don't forget in seventeen
ninety three. Now the Chapel Ye law they start to
(54:45):
destroy the Gilds started in France and then develop all
over Europe. So first destroyed the Gilds. The Gilts was
the natural community of people where all the important issue
could be discussed.
Speaker 3 (55:01):
Okay, Then what was the god? They got the individual.
Speaker 4 (55:05):
So the attack of the family started from there, because
then through capital limbs, they took the men out from
the family and the men had to go to work
in the public. Okay, then true femininees and the sexual revolution.
They took the women as well out of the family,
(55:27):
so they basically not disassembled the family. And then finally
it went the law for the divorce, which has you
had a huge impact on on the on the on
the family and the sexual evolution again, so that sexuality
(55:49):
was separated by generativity. Okay, that's what that's very gnostic.
That's a very gnostic. So people think they are modern,
but they are not more order. When I think like this,
they are very old because it's the same. There's the
ancient niostic not the body is something substantially deprived of
(56:13):
any spirituality. Is an object, and I can do what
I want with the object. Clearly if you start to
think like this. On top of it, you have an
economic which is the economic of the servile state, which
is deprived the family and the community of any economical
freedom and therefore of any economical richness. So if you
(56:37):
combine all these together from a moral, psychological point of view,
from an economical point of view, here is a family
find difficult to write at the end of the month
to spare money.
Speaker 3 (56:49):
Step by step, you have created a situation where.
Speaker 4 (56:54):
People that cannot generate because they are convinced that the
sexuality is separated by generativity, and economically there is an individuals, so.
Speaker 3 (57:08):
Family is not in Moses. Then the children is something
they don't have a right on their own.
Speaker 4 (57:14):
Abortion. Sorry, we forgot abortion. Abortion is an absolutely major
role in it because how many miniums of human being
has been kid million and million, So if you combine
all these together, no, it's it's really something against humanity
and against catholic clearly. And but you understand it's the
(57:38):
multifactorial issues. But something we always say as a distributis
is keep attention because if you fight the.
Speaker 3 (57:52):
Natality crisis only from a moral point of view, you
are not going anywhere.
Speaker 4 (58:00):
Understand the route also in the economical domain and the
issue of money, until the control of money is in
the end of a few who basically control any human
activity for their own purpose, and they go directly against reality,
(58:22):
against Catholicisms, again the common sense, for their own purpose
from different sources. You can only proceed in this direction,
which is a very nihilistic direction. So the dissolution of
the family, and now we're coming to the dissolution of
the human being as well, because so that's the view
(58:49):
that we have about the process.
Speaker 2 (58:55):
Andrew Christopher, do you have any more questions you like
to bring up.
Speaker 6 (59:02):
I'm sure we could spend another hour talking about many things,
but I thank you for your thoughts today.
Speaker 2 (59:08):
Thank you very much. This has been very interesting. And
let's include with Hail Mary, Father Spirit a very full
of grace the lords with the blessed are the women.
Blesses for Jesus by Mary, Mother of God. Pray for
us sinners now at tell of our death.
Speaker 3 (59:30):
Amen.
Speaker 2 (59:31):
Thank you very much. We really enjoyed it and we
really appreciate your being your guest today.
Speaker 3 (59:37):
Thank you.
Speaker 5 (59:37):
We have one one quick question. Your symbol on your
Distributed Society. It's a dog with a torch. Is that
Saint Dominic's dog?
Speaker 4 (59:48):
Yes, it is the distributist dog, which is said Dominic
God because father McNabb was one of the founder of
Distributors and he was a domin in Can in London.
So this symbol can be read in many different ways
(01:00:09):
because the the black, the the white and the red
they are the color of the ancient tradition.
Speaker 3 (01:00:18):
So it is it is the Dominican dog.
Speaker 4 (01:00:21):
It's one of the interpretations, but it can also be
interpreted in a more wider way.
Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
We used on the cover of that book a hold
of distributism, something very similar. Any of you are familiar
with that book.
Speaker 3 (01:00:38):
Yeah, yeah, yes, no, it is the Dominican go.
Speaker 4 (01:00:43):
But it's also the distributed symbol from from the beginning,
so it is it.
Speaker 3 (01:00:50):
Expressed.
Speaker 4 (01:00:51):
The kill is the black is the dark, the darkness
of a human life. The dog represents the human being,
which is a mixt of white and dark because as.
Speaker 3 (01:01:03):
A human being we are.
Speaker 4 (01:01:06):
Unfortunately, with the original scene, no one can pretend to
be perfect, so there is a sense of humility. But nevertheless,
in spite of this, we need to bring with us
a torch of the light, which represents the truth and
the life.
Speaker 3 (01:01:24):
So that's more or less the symbol.
Speaker 5 (01:01:28):
That's a true practice. I'm a lady Dominican, so that's
not my eye.
Speaker 3 (01:01:34):
Yes myself, I am myself a la Dominican frutier sorry
with fraterless.
Speaker 4 (01:01:44):
Yes yes we are ye are yes yes sorry before finished,
just to tell that if anyone interested to have more information,
we have a website which is it in Italian but
can be translated through Google, which is movie Man to
Distributista Movimento Distributista. So you can find out of Google
(01:02:08):
if you translate distributist movement in Italian through Google, and
then you can find each other because we have an
extensive website with a lot of literature reference books initiative,
and we are also starting a distributist course in English
(01:02:29):
is starting the fifteenth of.
Speaker 3 (01:02:34):
October.
Speaker 2 (01:02:35):
I will ask, I will ask them to question to
put up the notice for that tale. Yes, mess up
to the show. Ye, the notice for that course.
Speaker 3 (01:02:46):
Yes, okay you no, thank you very much. It's been
a pleasure for me.
Speaker 2 (01:02:56):
Well, were pleasure for us. It's a pretty good show.
Speaker 3 (01:02:59):
Thought, yeah, I think so, okay, thanks very much? What
was the best? All right?
Speaker 2 (01:03:07):
Thank you?
Speaker 3 (01:03:08):
Oh bye bye bye bye.
Speaker 1 (01:03:12):
Hello, God's Beloved. I'm Annabel Moseley, author, professor of theology
and host of then Sings My Soul and Destination Sainthood
on WCAT Radio. I invite you to listen in and
find inspiration along this sacred journey. We're traveling together to
make our lives a masterpiece and with God's grace, become saints.
(01:03:36):
Join me Annabel Mosley for Then Sings My Soul and
Destination Sainthood on WCAT Radio. God bless you. Remember you're
never alone. God is always with you.
Speaker 3 (01:03:54):
Thank you for listening to a production of WCAT Radio.
Please join us an omission of evangelization, and don't forget.
Love lifts up where knowledge takes flight.
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