Episode 310: Panel Discussion on Why People Leave the Church (December 10, 2025)

In this episode of The Open Door, Thomas Storck, Andrew Sorokowski, and Christopher Zehnder hold a panel discussion on why people leave the Church.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
You're listening to WCAT radio, your home for authentic Catholic programming.

Speaker 2 (00:06):
Welcome to the Open Door with your host Thomas Jorrick
and co hosts Andrews. Rokowski and Christopher Zinder. Today we're
having a panel discussion on a very app question, namely
the retention of Catholics in the church, the reasons for this,
and how that has to do with Catholic community, Catholic

(00:29):
subcultures or cultures, and which has many modifications. So let's
begin with our prayer. The name of the Father, the Son,
the Holy Spirit. In it become Holy Spirit, Pull the
hearts of your faithful and enkindle them the fire of
your love. Send forth your Spirit, and they shall be created,
and you shall renew the face of the earth. Let

(00:50):
us pray, Oh God, who by the light of the
Holy Spirit, can instruct the hearts of the faithful, grant
that by the same Holy Spirit we may be truly
wise and ever enjoys constellations.

Speaker 3 (01:01):
Through Christ, our Lord, Amen, in the name of the
Fathers of Early Spirit.

Speaker 2 (01:05):
Event Well, our discussion today really revolves around two points.

Speaker 3 (01:10):
Perhaps one is the question of the the used to
be in the United States.

Speaker 2 (01:15):
There was a well, not perfect, and in many respects
there was a Catholic subculture, which it seems had a
lot to do with retaining the loyalty of Catholics. Then,
on the other hand, talking about a completely different situation,
the noted Catholic historian Christopher Dawson pointed out how in

(01:37):
the first millennium many of most of the conversions were
not one on one individual conversions, but there were conversions
of old people's tribes, nations, and that all this may
have been imperfect in many respects, it very often led
to a very vibrant Catholic culture, instance, in particular the

(02:01):
Anglo Saxons. Uh. In this respect, So keeping in mind
those two paradigms of Catholic life, we're talking today about
Gothic losses in the United States and elsewhere today, but
with particular reference to this question of community. So gentlemen, UH,

(02:26):
please jump in, maybe.

Speaker 3 (02:28):
Good to.

Speaker 4 (02:30):
Some of them. Summarized what what's been said recently about
the loss of Catholics in the United States. I can't
remember then, I can't remember the actual numbers, but it
was it was rather alarming in terms of the actual
percentages of people who are actually leading the Catholic faith.

(02:53):
I mean, something's been going on for a long time,
but when you actually see it in numbers, it's it's
a little arresting. Anybody remember the exact numbers in that.

Speaker 3 (03:04):
No, but it was.

Speaker 2 (03:05):
Something like for every hundred people who convert a thousand labor.

Speaker 3 (03:09):
Or something like that.

Speaker 4 (03:10):
I mean that's yeah, yeah, more.

Speaker 3 (03:13):
Or less accurate.

Speaker 5 (03:15):
Yeah, it was a I know that net loss, even
of factoring in immigration of Catholics, and still there was
you know that. I mean you consider that if it
had not been for the immigration, it would have been even.

Speaker 4 (03:30):
Worse, right, which it is in some places in the country. Uh,
I don't have the same immigration. I'm from California, so
I remember some years ago, but it's probably the same
thing that l Archdiocese didn't have to close any parishes
because they had such an influx of immigrants, Catholic immigrants.

(03:52):
So but other places it's not. In Ohio there have
been some parish mergers and cherish disease because of the
loss of numbers. So yeah, you're right, it's with with
taking an account even take account immigration, it actually makes
a more alarming number, really, because we do have an

(04:12):
influx larger or rather large influx Catholics, or at least
nominal Catholics.

Speaker 5 (04:17):
Yeah, that, you know, I mean, there's always a counter story.
The of course, the Catholic press has been emphasizing those
instances where you do have people returning to the church
or you know, conversions and so on, and you know,
you have to kind of take that with some grain
of salt. But even the mainstream press, I mean Washington
or Legacy Press, whatever you call it. Washington Post had

(04:40):
an article the other day, I think it was actually
about England, but you have a similar situation in England
as here. Both England and in the US, you do
have this small group of people in their twenties who
are either joining the church or returning to the church

(05:00):
or converts, and they're very active, and they're active on campuses.
You know, it's really quite striking. One of the universities
had a very large, suddenly, a very large influx of
Catholic converts to their Catholic student society. So, I mean,
that's only a small part of the population, but it

(05:22):
has attracted some attention not only because of that, not
so much because of the numbers, but because of the
the fact that these are very well educated. You know
people university students are graduates in their twenties and who
know what they're doing and who are making something of
an impact. So that's kind of the counter story. That

(05:43):
doesn't change the statistics. The Pew report that came out
recently says there is continuing decline in numbers, but one
does have to look at those counter currents. I think too.

Speaker 4 (05:53):
Well, yeah, I mean it puts the counter currents, put
some context to it, because what we could be witnessing
now is the beginning of something bigger. It's not going
to start with a massive numbers of people coming in.
But I've been sort of impressed our Paris this year,
the now called o CIA program has thirty members entering

(06:16):
the church at Eastern and you brought the University of
Ohio State University. The Bishop of Columbus replaced the Paulists
with his own with one of his own priests as
the head of the as the head of the Newman
Society Newman House. And it was interesting because I think

(06:38):
it was last year and I think I got the
number correctly, but it was fifty young people entered the
church at the university. And I think that's significant because
They're in an atmosphere which is not generally considered friendly
to religion, and yet they're entering and I remember seeing
pictures of like the Latin Ash Wednesday service at the

(07:02):
Newman Center last year was was very well attended. It
was almost like a packed crowd. So I think, I
think that we have to look at perhaps, I mean,
we can't predict it, but we could be looking at
something at beginning to happen. It's a reversion of sorts
or of conversion.

Speaker 3 (07:22):
That's e totally possible.

Speaker 2 (07:23):
But how does this how does this connect with the
question that be raised, namely of Catholic subcultures being means
of holding people in even if these people are not
necessarily uh well instructed or that committed to the faith.

Speaker 3 (07:43):
I mean, I can my wife, for example, grew up
in a in a.

Speaker 2 (07:47):
Huge parish in near Pittsburgh, and it was so large
they had to build a new school and so on.
And I don't imagine everybody that that subculture in that
community was a committed Catholic well educated. I'm sure no,

(08:08):
but they held together during that time when the subculture
was so strong, so that we would is this something
we want to.

Speaker 4 (08:16):
Encourage well, I think. I think if you look at
the example of how the state, in a certain sense,
you do have the formation of a kind of limited subculture.
What it seems seems to has happened there is they've
re reintroduced traditional Catholic practice, traditional Catholic teaching, and you

(08:37):
have young people gathering around that teaching and it tends
to influence hopefully how they live. It's not a subculture
in the old sense of subculture. It's still individual conversions
of people coming together, but you form a kind of community.
What they've done and you have you have it is

(08:58):
it leads to conversions in a solidified Now, whether they're
going to have that same benefit once they leave the
Newman Center and go out to the world is another question.
But then then we'd have to find the answer. Of course,
would be happy to do with perishes at that point.

Speaker 5 (09:14):
The irony there is that it is precisely in college
that people who come from those communities, those those subcultures
often are leaving the church, and here we have the opposite,
opposite phenomenon. So it's kind of interesting in that sense. Yeah, yeah,
I mean, I don't know what. I'm not sure what's

(09:35):
spurring is on.

Speaker 4 (09:36):
I mean, is it something lacking and what's called Generation
Z that they didn't have that makes the fate attractor
to them or.

Speaker 5 (09:47):
But I think when we should maybe go back, I
mean going back to what Tom started with the subcultures communities.
I think there's more than one type, or at least
maybe you can you can illuminate me on this. We
had the original Catholic subculture, if that's what it was
in the colonies in early nineteenth century. Then you had

(10:08):
the immigrant groups which also formed ethnic subcultures. These were
not separate churches, of course, these were part of the
same church structure if they were Latin right. And then
you had immigrant communities more in the twentieth century, which
actually had separate hierarchies, so you know, from the Middle East,

(10:30):
for example, from Eastern Europe, well visiting right Catholics, other
Eastern Right Catholics who were not part of the Latin
Rite structure, so that was somewhat different trajectory as they
assimilated into American society. So I think there's more than
one type of subculture there. And then of course you

(10:50):
had those sort of territorial communities which broke up with
urbanization so perhaps those are different things we could look at.

Speaker 6 (11:01):
Yeah, I think that the as my understanding is that
the particularly ethnic and I don't know that it makes
that much difference really speaking sociologically, say, between whether you
have your own hierarchy.

Speaker 2 (11:15):
As an Eastern Catholic Church or whether you're simply a
Polish parish or Italian parish within the Latin Church. But
the subcultures might have been similar. But when these began
to break down from inner marriage for example, and things
like that, and so you had even the third of

(11:36):
the of the members of the Italian Charish burying outside
the Italian speaking group, then you would have pressure for oh,
we should have we should have the homilies in English.

Speaker 3 (11:51):
They don't.

Speaker 2 (11:51):
These people don't understand Italian and someone So when I
know you've spoken Andrew about that being an issue in
the Ukrainian Catholic Church right.

Speaker 3 (11:58):
Now the low language liturgy is in and so on.

Speaker 4 (12:02):
Yeah, well, I mean, but the thing is where the
country and United States, that's inevitable. I think it's it
really would take a lot of personal commitment to being
Italian or German or Ukrainian to maintain the language. And
I mean you contain some of the customs. People might

(12:23):
find those at least quaint, right, but the language is
gonna be a pecially if you're talking about a Slalaonic language,
which strikes me as rather difficult to It doesn't have
any of those Latin foundations that the rest of us
can depend upon to sort of understand what's going on.

Speaker 2 (12:43):
Well.

Speaker 5 (12:43):
And I think that when uh, but I think there's
somewhat different stories here because if you were, let's say,
a Ruthenian, you know, listen to the right Catholic, you've
become American. Maybe your parish is you know, conducted in English.
But it could also be that you simply become Latin
right Catholic, I mean through intermarriage or otherwise, which is

(13:06):
also you know, there are many cases I've seen where
people who are Latin right Catholics have ancestors who are
you know, Byzantine right or some other non Catholic right.
But I think the question is, you know, in the
past those people would still remain Catholic. Today it might
be a little bit different. And I'm thinking when also,

(13:28):
when those people who belong to the ethnic parishes become
Americanized fully in English language, do they stay in the
Catholic church or not. It used to be that, you know,
you can become American and still remain Catholic even when
you lost your Italian or German or Polish coloring. Today,

(13:49):
I think becoming American too many people seems to mean
becoming secular. But you know, I don't really have the
sociological evidence to h see whether that is in facted
the process.

Speaker 4 (14:06):
Yeah, I think we can. We can these go with
the anecdotes through our experience, and I think I think
what you say is correct, especially if you become a professional,
if you go to college and become a professional. Yeah,
what I think lures maybe the working class, the blue
collar working class away is something different, but you're not

(14:27):
considered the serious minded or yeah, or with with the
with with with the state of progress if you are religious,
at least two overtly religious.

Speaker 2 (14:40):
But it is a true Is it true that today
there is a even moderately vibrant working class Catholic Cochlar
culture community whatever you want to call it. I mean
my impression is that the that there's been a lot
of losses uh in these groups. Uh, and most of

(15:01):
the conversions are not occurring in these groups.

Speaker 4 (15:04):
Yeah. My point is simply that it's a different reason
than professionals. I think, and I don't worked to class
people at least seem to be more willing to hold
on to certain traditional concepts of family and the like,
even if they undergo divorce that sort of thing. Then

(15:25):
then professional college educated professionals, it's it's a it's a
different phenomenon. But I think you're right, it's not. It's
not like the working classes for biber Catholics. I don't
think it is.

Speaker 2 (15:40):
Yeah, well, you mentioned family, and that's one of the
points that some of the reasonable literature has emphasized, namely,
when you have both parents who are practicing Catholics and
relatives who are grand parients, cousins, etc. Who were practicing
as a child, is more likely to have an atmosphere

(16:04):
in which he retains the faith. But the odd thing is,
as I see it, that it used to be, say
in nineteen fifty the church discouraged h mixed marriages. Church
were actively discouraged and permitted mixed marriages.

Speaker 3 (16:21):
But you know that there were there were poops.

Speaker 2 (16:24):
To jump through, and they had designed a pledge to
raise children's Catholic etcetera, etcetera. Then under the heses of
personal autonomy, it s oh, yeah, you can marry whoever
you want, uh, and no thinking about wit a minute,
What is this going to do to the Catholic family structure?

Speaker 4 (16:42):
Right right? I think that's I think that's true. It's
we've lost the sense of the importance of community outside
the parish structure to have to actually maintain the Catholic
faith when it has to be the Catholicate has to
be incarnated in everyday life. And the first way that's done,

(17:05):
I think, is for the family. Yeah, especially especially with
the male, the man. It's the longer my can When
I was when I became Catholic many years ago, forty
some years ago, one thing that struck me is that
in Catholic circles, women seen often were the ones who

(17:25):
seemed to be act like the spiritual head of the
family rather than the males. And for young men at
a certain point in their life, that's not very good.
The young man needs to see the example his father.
But of course I read other things too which suggests
that the same thing is true for girls. They need
to see the father as at least equally serious or

(17:47):
Catholic as the mother. That's often not the case, and
there's I think there are different reasons for that. But
if we don't, if you don't have that solid structure
of the male mother and father and I would say
the man being the spiritual directive principle in the family,
then you don't have an incarnation in everyday in life.

(18:08):
And the chances that the children are remain Catholic but
are are much slimmer, you know, especially if they're in
a para structure, which is not particularly ideal.

Speaker 3 (18:22):
That's interesting.

Speaker 4 (18:23):
I don't know that.

Speaker 2 (18:24):
I I've read things that say that, and I think
it must be true to a great extent what you
just said, but I haven't personally experienced that.

Speaker 3 (18:38):
Maybe I don't have a well because you're married into
a big Catholic family and.

Speaker 2 (18:43):
Which I didn't when I do. Uh, So that might
be part of the difference. But I'm wonder if it
was because the religion was perceived as not really very important,
so the men didn't want to bother with it. They
were busy making money advancing their careers, and Oya recognizes

(19:06):
that religion. I'll leave that to my wife. IM sorry.
I think you're right. I think that one of the
one of the things, especially in the nineteenth century, when
when society as a whole, when government ceased to be Catholic,
when the secular world was given over to the cources.

Speaker 4 (19:30):
Of the world, and religion was seen as something purely
in the private domain, men tend to find it less
interesting and less and less meaningful. I think that's because
men tend to think that if something doesn't influence the
greater world, it's not really relevant, it's not maybe not

(19:52):
even really real. And plus me the the separation of
the father and work from the household. But my parents' generation,
my parents I both burned the twenties last century. They

(20:12):
they he often held to the idea that the man's
sole task is to be the breadwinner, so he is
in the woman's task is to actually do all the
family stuff. So a man's man's focus is on the
greater world. He doesn't see religion president, and I think
he's less likely to take it seriously or even even

(20:33):
in the end practice.

Speaker 2 (20:38):
Yeah, I think that's true. It's funny in my experience
with a father who was not a believer and a
mother who was a very nominal believer. But my father
believed in church, going very strongly. So we went to
church pretty regularly, and the religion was important to him,
not as something you believed, but as something that was

(20:59):
interesting and a topic of intellectual engagement, which I think
actually had a good effect on me, even though he
was ruling out a believery part of a believer in
God at all. But that was probably he was probably
pretty unusual in that respect in the nineteen fifties.

Speaker 3 (21:19):
But yeah, so that should the church be.

Speaker 2 (21:25):
Revising her practice concerning mixed marriages.

Speaker 3 (21:29):
And going back to the older stricter rule so.

Speaker 2 (21:33):
That you know, non Catholic partners had to sign a
pledge that they would we raise the children's Catholic And.

Speaker 3 (21:42):
I think even in the Code of Canada law, if.

Speaker 2 (21:44):
I'm not mistaken, has changed the language that it uses
about mixed marriages. No longer the church really doesn't like this,
but well, yeah, we'll kind of weak at it and
let you in rather than oh, yeah, you know, personal autonomy,
that's the big deal.

Speaker 3 (21:59):
Do whatever do you want?

Speaker 4 (22:03):
Well, I think yeah, we have to. There has to
be a in some level. How it's actually be expressed
might be different now, but in real sense that Catholics
should marry Catholics. I just especially, I mean, given the
moral problems that we face down with contraceptional like this
is take that as an example. If both spouses are

(22:26):
not Catholic, the chances are that one of them is
going to balk at the idea of not using contraception.
It's go be far greater and it's going to put
pressure on one of the spouses to succumb. But there's
a number of other things. So as as the secular
world becomes more and more estranged, even more estranged from
the Catholic faith, it's good. It's harder to practice the

(22:48):
Catholic faith in society. And how much heart is it
going to be if you if you have to have
that estrangement within your household.

Speaker 5 (22:56):
I think that that both parents really need to be
equally committed here. It's not even it's not enough for
a Catholic to marian nominal Catholic. You really have to
have both committed because children will sense that there is
some kind of difference there between what one parent and
the other stands for, and you know, children being children,

(23:16):
will exploit that or it bases so doubt in their minds.
You know, my father's committed my mother is not so committed,
you know, or the other way around. So you know,
I think ideally both should be equally committed. But I
mean that's asking a lot, but one I would think
the church could at least send out that message that
it's not going to work if both of you are

(23:36):
not equally committed, you know, I mean that.

Speaker 4 (23:41):
I mean what you say is right is because the
faith should be leading factor in our lives. It's all encompassing. Really,
the faith is not just going to Mass and seeing
the Rosary, and the faith is it has to encompass
all of life. And if we don't put that first
before even love and affection for a certain person, we're

(24:03):
not really following Christ fully as we ought to. I mean,
none of us do follow Christ as we ought to.
But at least what we should have that commitment to
that that our faith of Christ who comes first, and
our life in the church comes first. And actually not
even that it's in the first. It's almost like we

(24:24):
have to embrace with our whole souls, our whole hearts
or whole minds.

Speaker 2 (24:31):
Yeah, but I I Andrew, I still would favor saying
in a parish group where you're going to have a
young people's group with you obviously can't say, oh, you
can't join this group. You're not you're not committed obviously
anyone and he can't like uh, freedom marry in the

(24:52):
church has to be allowed to come.

Speaker 3 (24:54):
So so I think.

Speaker 2 (24:56):
It's probably better that you would marry even a not
real kind of look warm Catholic, because they're sending the
bill on there. I know it's true that obviously people convert,
and you know, two of us here are converts, but
still you can't again on that, and I'm our parish

(25:20):
has a kind of I think it has some kind
of a young adult Christopher. You're Saint Patrick Saws.

Speaker 4 (25:25):
Is that correct? Yes, it does, yeah, yeah, and there is.

Speaker 2 (25:30):
In some cities there is something called the Catholic Alumni Club,
which is a strange name, but it's basically a singles
club for Catholics. I don't know if this as active
as it used to be, but i'm a number of
people who have met their spouses through that. But some
of the people who go to that are not terribly committed,
but they're obviously looking for all things being equal, at

(25:53):
least they would prefer to Maria Catholic probably or at
least it's an easy way to meet people.

Speaker 4 (26:01):
Sure.

Speaker 5 (26:01):
Yeah, and of course the church, I mean it's then
as strict to all sorts of Catholics, you know, even
the very even the Dowbaters too, you know, So that's
I mean, I understand that, that's but you know, I
guess you have to kind of project, you know, state
the ideal situation, but then deal with with the situation.

Speaker 3 (26:20):
As it is.

Speaker 5 (26:21):
And of course there'll be many people who are lukewarm
and so on, but of course they should not be dismissed.

Speaker 2 (26:27):
And that goes back to an earlier point in namely,
in the even in something as imperfect as Catholic life
in the nineteen forties and fifties, you've had an awful
lot of imperfect believe in practice, but people stay Catholic
more or less.

Speaker 3 (26:47):
I think. Yeah, there was leaguage.

Speaker 2 (26:50):
Then, are either familiar with that book that came out
in the early twenties, well, Has the Immigrant Kept His Faith?
It was written by a priest who later became a
bishop somewhere in the Northwest, and it was supposedly a
very detailed examination of statistics from the nineteenth century, mostly

(27:15):
in the.

Speaker 3 (27:15):
Early twentieth century as to whether or not there had.

Speaker 2 (27:18):
Been massive losses, as many of the German Catholics said, yes,
there have been massive losses, and the Irish Catholics oh no, no, no,
they were exaggerating. So this priest who was Irish wrote
this book which make I think quite a splash at
the time, and you can get this on full text online.

(27:38):
I couldn't tell you where exactly now would've seen it.
And his conclusion was that after the colonial period when
there had been massive losses, there really weren't that many
losses in the nineteenth century.

Speaker 3 (27:53):
I'm not so surely right.

Speaker 2 (27:56):
Sometimes I think that if everyone who came into this
entry as a Catholic have remained a Catholic and all
of his centers that remain Catholics, we would probably be
eighty percent in this country because you meet so many
people who, oh, yeah, I asked my grandfather, my great

(28:17):
grandfather was a Catholic.

Speaker 5 (28:20):
Now you started with the idea of the sort of
these Catholic subcultures or communities, I mean assuming that that
I mean, I think it's there's no doubt that those
are valuable, and that even if they contain people, you know,
members of those communities who are not practicing or not
fully committed, they still are valuable because they preserve a

(28:41):
Catholic culture. We've seen that in Europe. I guess two
questions though, I mean, one is in the long run,
do those communities remain Catholic or do they eventually break
down because you know, because of social change. And the
other thing is that if they have broken down, can
they be reconstructed? For example here in America? And I

(29:05):
really don't know, what do you think?

Speaker 4 (29:09):
Well, the hard thing of historically United States is that
you had Catholic communities, and many of them, like the
German communities, were founded on the land and they had
a coherent, cohesive community. When those began to break up
because of for phrase, economic reasons and social reasons, it's
really hard to constitute that kind of community in the city.

(29:32):
And the same thing with urban communities. I can't remember
reading I read articles about Polish national Polish Church which
would its neighbor had a cohesive neighborhood, but then somebody
put its expressway through it and it just destroyed the community.
But just the whole desire in the United States to

(29:54):
move up and move away a little bit to become.
This whole suburbanization phenomenon that occurred broke up those communities.
So if we're going to reconstitute something, it can't be
based upon economic models, I don't think anymore. So it
has to be it has to be something utterly different.

Speaker 2 (30:19):
Well are you saying it has to be based on
a kind of a personal faith commitment.

Speaker 4 (30:25):
Well, I mean, yeah, right now, it does. I mean
we talked, we have. We were referencing what Christer Dawson
said about the conversions of say in the early Middle Ages.
He doesn't talk about in that context conversions under the

(30:45):
Roman Empire, which we're more like personal, more like our
personal conversions than like the conversions of the franct or
of or the very violent conversion of Iceland. Well, they
weren't conversions. They were actually individual conversions. I can't think
of any other cases. But that's not that I wasn't so.

(31:07):
But the church actually did grow under those circumstances, and
it didn't grow with the same alacrity that it did,
say in the early Middle Ages, but yet it still grew.
It became even though minority became a very important force
in society, such that I finally made it more of

(31:27):
a force. Of course, was the conversion of the Emperor Constantine.

Speaker 2 (31:32):
Yeah, I didn't when Theodosia's I think it was who
prohibited the practice public practice of veganism really.

Speaker 4 (31:38):
Have a huge effect, right right, So you know that,
but we're not there. And and part of the thing
too is that I think that, like the ancient German
had a different mindset than we have. For the ancient German,
his his his his chieftain's God or his king's God

(32:02):
was his God because he was the king's man. It
wasn't a very perfect faith, it wasn't a very enlightened faith,
but I think it was actually a true faith if
he actually did believe in Christ. He might have also
believed in oathing and been thor but he actually believed
in Christ, and he was at least open to receiving
baptism and usually have a formation begins the formation of

(32:27):
a Catholic society, both because just the reality now and
the fact that we have the Renaissance, I think changes
things tremendously. There is a much more of a sense
in our society since the Renaissance of an individual autonomy,
but or ill But that's just the way it is.

(32:48):
So it's going to have conversion is going to have
to be initially like attracting individuals through I hate to
say it, a personal commitment to Christ.

Speaker 5 (33:05):
Well, I guess another problem is that in those cases
where you have communities, you know, Catholic communities, you know,
and you know in Europe, those were traditionally agricultural for
the most part, these people immigrate to the US, if
they remain agricultural, they can maybe replicate those communities. If they,

(33:28):
you know, become urbanized through industrialization organization, then there is
a danger that that Catholic culture, which is so agriculturally based,
may you know, may be diluted or lost completely. I mean,
it's been seen that in different countries when when people
leave the village and enter the city and become industrial

(33:49):
workers instead of agricultural workers, they often also lose lose
the church affiliation. I don't know whether that happened here
on a massive scale or not, but I mean that's
that's one one angle one problem.

Speaker 2 (34:05):
But one of the things that was said about Catholics
in the immigrants of this country in the nineteenth centuries,
they settled in the cities, and you know, there were efforts,
I mean explicit efforts to create agricultural communities, and which
you know, there was some conflict between say Archbishop Hughes,
who was trying to keep people in New York and

(34:27):
people said, no, they need to, we need to set
up agricultural communities in the West. But it was still
cities we're saying nineteen forty nineteen fifty, where the majority
of Catholics lived there, and that's where the talking about
of subcultures I'm thinking of, that's where they were, because

(34:47):
I think the world cultures, I mean, there were some
in western Ohio and I know Wisconsin, parts of Pennsylvania,
but they weren't I doubt they were more than ten
percent of the account I think population at the time. Okay,
although I mean I figure I'm just blowing out the
areas that were, but it seems to be probably.

Speaker 4 (35:08):
More or less true. Yeah, but if the statistics of
the German commentator in nineteenth century correct about the massive
loss that would occur to the light in the cities.

Speaker 2 (35:22):
That's true. That's that's correct. Yeah, that's certainly true. But
still that's where most of the other survinment Catholics were
lunched together too.

Speaker 5 (35:38):
Well, I know that within the cities. Of course, there's
change within the cities because I mean I've seen places
in oh Chicago or Buffalo where you had neighborhoods, you know,
which were still you know, highly Polish or Lithuanian or something,
and of course they were connected with the church. Then
those neighborhoods would decline, people would move out to the suburbs.
That area would have a completely new population of people

(36:01):
who are not Catholics, and that would be kind of
pretty much the end of that community. Once the people
got into the suburbs, it was a very different game. Yeah,
I think suburbanization is more of the culprit than urbanization.

Speaker 4 (36:19):
Yeah. It's one of the difficulties is that when we're
talking about Catholic communities are gonna be touched on this before.
We're not talking about communities of vibrant personally committee Catholics necessarily.

Speaker 7 (36:33):
We're talking about communities were of a large percentage, if
not most Catholics are kind of just hanging on to
the faith, not only in terms of the faith itself,
in terms of the life of virtue.

Speaker 4 (36:49):
People are you know, just a lot of them are
just hoping to get through purgatory at best, and are
not really living, maybe live in immortal sin for much
of their lives too. But what keeps them the community
is so important because it actually provides those barriers, external

(37:09):
barriers that most people need in order to be kept
in line. I remember, uh, when I was a journalist
in Los Angeles area and we've talked about talking about
the immigrants with a woman who had helped out immigrants
in the part of Los Angeles. She was saying that
she was describing just perils that immigrants face when they

(37:32):
come to place like Los Angeles. He said, because you
have these these men who come from very sometimes very
rural districts of Mexico, who are used to a certain
social structure which encourages a moral a certain level of morality.
When they come to Los Angeles, that social structure is gone.
They don't have within them the reverathall in order to

(37:54):
really resist it, and so they fall, and you know,
it led to things like domestic of domestic violence and
and other things of that sort. But yeah, so that
that's that's the thing about important the community structure is
that it actually provides a way for most people to
actually think, maybe you know, at least in their last

(38:17):
day they have last rights.

Speaker 2 (38:20):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's it's a mistake to
This is gonna sound very very lexus, but you know
what we really need to be in an ideal world
we would be concentrating on are strengthening these these community
ties like christ if we just talked about uh, because
the idea that everyone's going to be a you know,

(38:43):
Christopher Dawson or a JK gesture, and it's just totally unrealistic.
The uh, most people are never going to reach that
level of personal commitment and knowledge of the faith.

Speaker 4 (38:55):
Yeah, that's one of the I remember getting controversies on
email back in the day with some people about this
whole question. They had a certain disdainful attitude towards Mexicans,
and I point out, the Mexicans are Catholic. Well they're
not good Catholics. They don't live the Catholic life. They're
not committed like we angle Catholics are to the faith.

(39:19):
And I pointed, I said, what you want is a
Church of the perfect, and the Catholic Church has never
been the Church of the perfect. Catholic Church is always
as they say, you know, everyone may enter, everyone come
in and we'll let everybody in and then we'll deal
with the problems that arise from that. But it's like
a hospital only allowing in people who are in pretty

(39:39):
good health. This needs need some You need some, you know,
a little bit of help in order to reach the
optimal health instead of the very very sick. That's what
the church is. It's an institution. Pope Francis said that, right,
he said, it's the Church of the Field Hospital. And
I think among the things both parents said is one
of the better ones.

Speaker 2 (40:01):
Mhm, yeah, I I completely agree with that what you
just said. I think it's very important too. One of
the one of the problems.

Speaker 3 (40:12):
As I see it, is that the for people, for.

Speaker 2 (40:18):
People in the United States, especially UH English speaking Americans, UH,
having this Catholic subcultures having pretty much vanished, where do
we find our identity now? We find it in the
same secular groupings that the rest of the population as,
and in particular the cultural political block that we call

(40:42):
liberal and that we call conservative. Although those names are stupid,
but I use them for identifications purposes. So people find that.
And I'm even worried about some of the some of
these Catholic groups say a widow state, Uh, they're they're Yes,
they're becoming identifying themselves as Catholics.

Speaker 3 (41:02):
That's wonderful.

Speaker 2 (41:03):
But are they also identifying themselves as conservative Catholics so
that the conservative is as important perhaps as the Catholic
or maybe could become could become more important.

Speaker 4 (41:17):
Well, I think you've identified as the worm in the apple.
Really we haven't. Those of us who are serious, committed
Catholics more or less take our faith seriously. We haven't
taken it seriously enough to actually step outside of the

(41:38):
cultural paradigms in which we live, and we still take
our identity from the cultural groupings, which is I guess
kind of natural that would happen, but it's something that
has to be overcome. And if the church is really
going to become, it's going to produce real Catholics. But
I'm I'm at a loss who know how that would
be done. So many of our mention but clergy are

(42:01):
just are taught in that too.

Speaker 5 (42:04):
You mentioned that when people enter the professions, for example,
they enter into an atmosphere where you know, being Catholic
is just not something that really you want to keep
to yourself. And I think that for that reason. It's
it's important that those instances of students and people in

(42:26):
their twenties becoming very committed Catholics is could be significant.
As you say, that could have a wide, you know,
a broad effect. If the atmosphere changes even a little
bit in a university where being Catholic is not seen
as you know, weird, but that it is something acceptable
and you know, interesting or weird in a positive way.

(42:47):
You know that that could make a difference. The same
is true, I think in the professions, and for that reason,
I mean it's important that there were or have been,
you know, Thomas Moore societies for a lawyer and analogous
societies for physicians and so on that you know, that
could create a new kind of community, not not the

(43:10):
territorial community, not the ethnic community, but professional communities or
communities of people who work together because you see those
people every day. You see the people in your parish
once a week, and you may never see them outside
of that, but you see the people that you know
in your profession that you work with every day. And

(43:31):
if that, if there is within that profession a group
of Catholics, I think that that could actually become significant.

Speaker 2 (43:41):
Yes, I agree, with what you say. But I would
like to emphasize though, what it means to me to
be very very important that Christopher was highlighting a minute ago. Namely,
how do we get a grouping that sees their Catholicism
as their primary identity, not simply oh, I'm a conservative Catholic,

(44:06):
i e. A Catholic who the genius is conservative these
species is Catholic.

Speaker 3 (44:13):
That is not what we indeed, so I would like to.

Speaker 2 (44:16):
See, for example, here's a concrete idea. I would like
to see these groups on university campuses, groups like say
Focus and other groups that are promoting lots of good
Catholic practices and customs.

Speaker 3 (44:31):
Et cetera.

Speaker 2 (44:33):
You know, have study groups where they read the works
from the Catholic intellectual Revival. I mean, it's to me
it's astounding that we're coming out on the talent or
actually it's been now fifty years I guess as it died.
But some of us are, you know, are old enough
that we were really alive during the Catholic intellectual Revival

(44:56):
and it was an amazing period which I considered to
be u maybe akin to the thirteenth century in terms
of the brillions of Catholic thinking that was going on, and.

Speaker 3 (45:07):
It was.

Speaker 2 (45:10):
Not.

Speaker 3 (45:10):
It had not.

Speaker 2 (45:11):
Surrendered to the liberal or conservative models such as they
were at that time.

Speaker 3 (45:18):
It was stinctively Catholic. Well, if people spent time reading
these people.

Speaker 2 (45:23):
Obviously people at Chestered and Bella were pretty hostile to
capitalism for example, come to mind Dawson or many others.
If people spent their time reading these people, discussing these people,
it might go a ways to break down this identification
with either the liberal or the Catholic cultural models that

(45:46):
are so dominant.

Speaker 4 (45:49):
Yeah, and if we had enough Catholics who were really
intunesive with the social teaching, really believed in trying to
think according to it, that could be an important political
first in their own country, which could we could be
a version of social conversion what you've been called what
it used to be called pre evangelization, where we show

(46:13):
our fellow citizens what the Catholic Church teaches in the
right and presents them a vision of society which they
can't conceive at least right away, but I think find
it attractive.

Speaker 2 (46:31):
Well, but even even even at a romanest level, for example,
study groups reading Gesturgen or Bella in a way of
smuggling in Gothic social I mean, everybody likes gesture, almost
everybody likes Bella. So you're not going to find people saying, oh,
you can't read those people with their liberals where they're
communists or whatever.

Speaker 3 (46:52):
Very few people will say that.

Speaker 2 (46:53):
So you start reading them and you say, oh, this
is a different vision of what it is to be
a Catholic. And it's the vision that you know, they
were close enough in time that it wasn't like they
were addressing concerns that were completely different.

Speaker 3 (47:07):
Say somebody in the thirteenth century.

Speaker 2 (47:09):
Was uh so uh to me that that is a
way of doing that.

Speaker 3 (47:16):
I can't think of it another way myself.

Speaker 4 (47:19):
M well, yeah, they've worked on the canthuses. But I
guess you could do something similar in parishes if we
could have, if we had priests who are actually converse
with Catholic social teaching, that coun actually put in the hot.

Speaker 2 (47:36):
Yeah, but I wouldn't even have to start out, as
I was saying, with social teaching per se. It could
start out something with let's read some gesture ten and
oh most of all the stuff about the trivisism in.

Speaker 3 (47:50):
There, what's that's what's talking?

Speaker 2 (47:51):
And I'd never heard of that before, and so on
and so on, Uh and uh, why is he so
bitter against the rich?

Speaker 3 (48:00):
And so on and so on. Might might be a
way of waking up Catholics and we unite.

Speaker 2 (48:08):
The seminaries did this and in priests. But you know,
you're the lady, we have a big task ahead of us.

Speaker 3 (48:15):
We could I tried to start a group like that
in my parish, went nowhere.

Speaker 4 (48:25):
Well, it's very hard to start things in there. I'm California.
I try to do that too, and I get a
study group together, different things, but they start to dwindle
the certain point. And part of it is a time
commun as people have. Part of it is, you know,
it's they have better things to do. They think they
do something like that, and it's.

Speaker 5 (48:45):
Reading clubs are very popular. I mean, is that Does
anyone tried that? Or do you have Catholic reading clubs
around the country?

Speaker 3 (48:54):
You know, I mean meetups?

Speaker 5 (48:56):
Well, I mean I guess people simply read books. I mean,
I guess that something like what you're suggesting. But you know,
maybe a group is something that some people would shy
away from. But if it's a reading club, they're simply
reading fiction. Or you know, I mean, I'm just yeah,
that's exactly what I what I have it is, it
is the same thing. And as I said, tried to

(49:18):
start one, but it.

Speaker 3 (49:21):
Didn't go anywhere.

Speaker 5 (49:23):
And I mean, what are they read?

Speaker 2 (49:24):
Why?

Speaker 3 (49:24):
Why?

Speaker 5 (49:25):
Why is that? Why don't those things take off?

Speaker 2 (49:31):
Well, I think Christopher suggested some of the answers, Namely,
people are busy, people don't see the importance of it,
and basic, this is not a very intellectual country. Okay, thinking,
you know, reading and thinking is not exactly what you
think of Americans doing.

Speaker 4 (49:50):
Uh, first off, do you do you have any sense
Andrew about what Europe that sort of thing you think
being attractive there?

Speaker 5 (50:05):
Well, I don't know enough about those societies. And I
think in terms of just going back to the idea
of communities, there have been studies of you know, why
why is secutarization progressing so fast in you know, France
and Spain and so on, And one I know one
of the findings was that one of the things that

(50:27):
preserved the church at least for a long time was
family rituals, you know, weddings, christenings, you know, you know, baptisms,
that's that sort of thing. And and customs, you know,
which could be urban customs, not just real customs. And
I was struck. I mean, when I was in England,
you know, a few months ago, people who are you

(50:49):
have left the church, not practicing Catholics, talking about their godchildren.
Now I didn't inquire, you know, in detail into their
personal lives, but I thought it struck me that that
the idea of having people still have gaud children even
if they're not churchgoers. I'm not sure how that happens,
but that does suggest that there is some kind you know,

(51:10):
there are cultural vestiges that keep people connected, however tentatively
to the church and the faith. Whether that is you
know enough, of course, is another question. So you know,
in those those are the things that I kind of
noticed in you know, in Europe. But there is a
general sense that people who maintain those family connections and

(51:35):
the rituals, the family rituals of you know, marriages and
christenings do at least maintain some kind of connection to
the Church, and the rest of the society does not. So,
you know, but in terms of intellectual development, in terms
of kind of reading groups or discussion groups, you know,
I don't know, I would imagine that would be a

(51:56):
very small small segment.

Speaker 2 (52:00):
Is pretty follows things in France pretty closely, and there
are some initiatives like that that she's noticed, mostly sorted
by priests, uh say, you know, lectures and that kind
of thing. And but to what extent there are you know,
little study groups.

Speaker 4 (52:19):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (52:21):
Yeah, there was a parish in Paris that had it
was really making an effort to revitalize the faith along
all social, intellectual, uh, liturgical, et cetera. And it seemed
like it was really an outstanding thing. But you know,

(52:42):
most of the most of the Jurgis weren't doing that.

Speaker 3 (52:44):
Just a few.

Speaker 5 (52:47):
It's a problem because you know, reading, I mean reading
clubs one sort or another appeared to be you know,
secular ones appear to be popular, and they become social
events really rather than intellectual events. It kind of depends
on who's in them. I was in one reading group, however,
which was you know, connected with my parish back in Washington, DC.
And I mean the problem is that some people really

(53:09):
didn't like having the priest there to direct it. I
mean they saw this as the priest sort of pushing
his agenda, as they would put it. And I think
that's the problem. If you don't have a priest directing it,
then it can become just a social club and really
stray from any kind of intellectual or theological or spiritual direction.

(53:32):
But on the other hand, if it's directed by the
priest and hazard spiritual directions, you know, people will resent
it because they're used to reading clubs where you just
kind of choose something by consensus, or you choose something
which is you know, popular, but not necessarily very edifying.
So I think there's there's always a kind of instability

(53:53):
in these things.

Speaker 4 (53:55):
Yeah, yeah, you don't want to have it too democratic
to you, No, I.

Speaker 3 (54:00):
Can see a group with made up even if you
had a layman.

Speaker 2 (54:04):
Or more than one layman who was you know, knowledge
of balk the faith and theology and philosophy, it could
still be good. Well that's your opinion. My opinion is this,
Who are you to say that? What status do you have?
I can see that happening. But if you had two
or three well I guess I'm dreaming here, two or

(54:28):
three they could support each other and say, well, you
know that is the teaching of the church, by the way,
but you're lucky to get one.

Speaker 3 (54:36):
So I guess two or three. It's not gonna have
it very often.

Speaker 4 (54:39):
Yeah, but you know it's the same people, lot of
the same people, you know, it's teaching the church will
still ignore it. And that's, you know, the good of
the ring group. Even if you have those that have
that is that at least they're they're confronted with the ideas.

Speaker 3 (54:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (54:59):
I don't think you have to out any any unanimity.
It's just you can have these discussions over it, but
at least people are.

Speaker 3 (55:06):
Hearing the ideas. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (55:11):
And as I say, if, I'm always astounded by the
by the richness of the literature in the widest sense
of that term fiction non fiction from the intellectual you know,
Catholic intellectually bival of the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries.
The amount of richness there is incredible, and how it

(55:35):
seems to be just ignored. So often people are already
not even aware of it. Obviously there are some who
talk about this not author and that's good, but so
often it's just it's a treasure that's just sitting there
waiting for our use. And then one that's one that
is not particularly I mean, I can see someone meaning

(55:57):
Saint Thomas or Bead or somebody like that, and say,
you know, I don't know what he's talking about. I
don't know why he's talking about this.

Speaker 3 (56:05):
Why is he so?

Speaker 2 (56:06):
Why is he so interested in this? Whereas you wouldn't
find that with the gesture and Bella Dawson. You know,
their concerns are more or less our concerns.

Speaker 4 (56:18):
Mm hmm, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (56:26):
Well we were getting closing uh up on our hour. Now,
either of you have any final thoughts you'd like to
do or uh, but.

Speaker 4 (56:41):
Well, I don't know. It's uh, I think this is
something really we have to think a lot about. Everybody
has all capitals to think about. It is how if
we if we are beginning to experience or uh cycle
of conversion to the church, we have to figure out
how to maintain it, how to how to strengthen it,
expand it. And that's going to a lot of It's

(57:03):
going to have to happen on the parish level. So
that's that's going to be a struggle because some places
have more or less decent parish the other places have
very few of them. But in the least in the
better parishes, how can we work with the clergy we
lame it because we have to be lame and work
with the clergy. How do we work with the clergy
in order to to increase this tendency towards the faith

(57:28):
and just slidify it? And and I'm not sure exactly
what that's going to entail. It's going to entail something
more than just catechieses and more than just personal devotion.
It's going to have to be we have to we have.
What people have to see is that the Catholic Church
speaks to all of human life. And I think even

(57:49):
if they don't agree with at least they can see
that and at least maybe spark some interest. But if
we don't, if we leave it on a level of
private devotion and personal piety, that I think it's gonna
it's going to peter out in the end.

Speaker 2 (58:05):
Yeah, the r parers has a lot of programs, but
they seem to be on that level, namely personal Party.

Speaker 3 (58:15):
There's one called this Manage You.

Speaker 2 (58:16):
I've never gone to it, but it's it seems to
be that seems to be as focused. And I don't
think there's a there's an awareness even that there there
not for everybody, but for some people there needs to
be an intellectual dimension to this, and if there isn't,
I agree with.

Speaker 3 (58:36):
You, it's very it'll peter out.

Speaker 2 (58:38):
It won't really, it certainly won't transform the social order
according to the teachings of the Gospel as probably as.

Speaker 3 (58:44):
The eleventh said.

Speaker 4 (58:46):
Yeah, and even more than that, it's people are intellectually
fear your intellectual things. I would think if the church
actually in the perishal and to address other topics than
say Aple Russian and as the church yourself has done
on the papacy root, the important question, the wider question

(59:10):
of human dignity and justice, I think that would as
the parish could do that, start doing that, and I
think it would spur something further. But I see very
little tendency to do that. I see probably the sense

(59:30):
is that we can't be partisan, and all these things
are seen to be partisan, and we only will talk
about those those social sins which everybody at least reportedly
in this parish agrees with.

Speaker 3 (59:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (59:46):
I think another area where important work have you done
is culture, And of course we're talking you know, when
you talk about culture, you're talking about the individual artistry
writer usually, but such people can have an influence in
the atmosphere of the society and make it perhaps more
amenable to at least considering, you know, the Catholic worldview.

(01:00:10):
And I think there, you know, perhaps at a time
of uncertainty and aimlessness, which seems to be the atmosphere
we're in now in this country, that may be the
time is right for those cultural forces, which you know
are not ostensibly you know, church related, to to have

(01:00:31):
an effect and to bring about a change in atmosphere
that is more amenable to the Catholic worldview.

Speaker 4 (01:00:39):
I think you're right about the importance of culture. That's
very important as that we haven't really discussed. But I'm
glad you brought that up because I think it's it's
actually quite central to this task.

Speaker 3 (01:00:55):
Well, the Littleman, thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:00:56):
Let us include in with it, Ail Mary, the Father's Whisper, Hillary,
Old Graceloris, with lessener of the women listeners, Jesus, buy Mary,
Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and our death.
Thank you and thank you for our listeners. Our next

(01:01:21):
open ear will be taking place in early January, after
we have a slight break for Christmas.

Speaker 3 (01:01:27):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:01:29):
Hello, God's beloved. I'm Annabel Moseley, author, professor of theology
and host of then Sings My Soul and Destination Sainthood
on w c AT Radio. I invite you to listen
in and find inspiration along this sacred journey. We're traveling
together to make our lives a masterpiece and, with God's grace,

(01:01:51):
become saints. Join me Annabel Mosley for then Sings My
Soul and Destination Sainthood on w c AT. God bless you.
Remember you're never alone. God is always with you.

Speaker 5 (01:02:11):
Thank you for listening to a production of WCAT Radio.
Please join us in our mission of evangelization, and don't
forget Love lifts up when knowledge takes flight.