Bob Ruff : Truth & Justice: The West Memphis 3

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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we've ever done it. Okay. He had a very special

(02:09):
guest for us today, Bob Rouff. His podcast is called
Truth Injustice the West Memphis three and you can find
that at AudioBoom dot com. But also to his website
is truth injusticepod dot com and he covers a lot
of true crime stuff and right now he's doing a
crowdsourcing investigation into the West Memphis three case. So Bobby there, Yeah,

(02:32):
I'm here. Okay, great, tell us about yourself. Who is
Bob Roff.

Speaker 3 (02:37):
Bob Rouff is a podcaster by accident. I live in
the very rural area in southwest Michigan and spent most
of my adult life as a firefighter. And I was
twenty two years old when I was hired full time
at the fire department. Ended up all together spent sixteen
years as a firefighter. The last three I was the

(02:59):
fire chief the north Buryon Fied apartment, and then as
a hobby, I was into true crime. I was also
an arson investigator, so I've had a lot of training
and investigations and interrogation techniques and things like that. And
much like a lot of people, when the serial podcast
came out, I was really kind of hooked on it,

(03:20):
but as a person that likes to solve puzzles, it
wasn't making sense to me, and I ended up one
day when my four year old son, Parker, was home
sick and I was bored. I had the equipment. I
have another podcast called off Duty. It's nothing like this one.
That's it's a group of firemen that sitting around talking,

(03:41):
kind of more of a comedy podcast. But anyway, I
had the equipment and I got this idea, well, maybe
I'll go real quick throw together a podcast. It was
originally called The Serial Dynasty, and I started the show,
and that the idea was, let's basically start a discussion,
except for do it in an audio format on a podcast.

(04:03):
So you know, I went in and said, hey, I'm
studying the case. I'm digging deeper into it. I know
a lot of you are too. Every week, why don't
you email me in what you figured out or what
you think is going on. We'll talk about it on
the show and we'll kind of walk through this thing together.
And you know, that led into eventually some some pretty
groundbreaking evidence that we pulled up in the Serial case

(04:26):
and the you know, the Nonsa ed and the Hayman
Lee murder, and it's the podcast just blew up. I mean,
it was an accident. It was just something I was
doing as a hobby. We ended up spiking I think
all the way to number two in the iTunes charge.
We actually passed serial and then, you know, as time
goes on, the listenership grew and grew and grew, and
eventually last year, I'm coming up now on my second year.

(04:49):
Since I took an early retirement from the Fire Department,
I was able to do that. I was bested in
our pension and everything I could, I could walk away
and started doing this work full time. And that happened
because as I was finishing up my coverage of the
Hayman Lee murder case, people started sending me in emails
and calling me and mailing me packages wanting me to

(05:12):
help them. You know, people from from prison, family members saying, hey,
you know my uncle was wrongfully convicted. Can you help him?
No one's there to help them. And as I studied
more and more into the area of wrongful convictions, I
realized that this happens a lot more than any of
us like to think, and there's so many people out

(05:34):
there that just have no help. You know, we have
the innocence projects that are out there that do great work,
but the problem is, you know, they have only so
many resources, and it takes a lot of work to
really break down a case. You know, when somebody has
proven guilty in a court of law, the burden approved
shifts onto them, and it's been called a herculean burden

(05:55):
to prove their innocence. Once they've been convicted. There's no
more beyond a reasonable doubt. It's you have to prove
with one hundred percent of the preponderance of evidence that
they're innocent in order to get a full exoneration. So
I just I really felt felt led that this is
what I was supposed to be doing. And I took
on another case, and that one was going as well

(06:16):
or better than the first case, and we made some
leaps and bounds in that one, and then eventually decided,
you know, as the fire chief, I was no longer
you know, the things that I loved about the fire
department were quickly fading away, you know, the being on
a daily basis interacting with people and helping them turned
into you know, I wore a suit to work and
argued with politicians all the time, and just decided it

(06:38):
was time to kind of restart life at that point
and left and started doing this work full time. We've
had a lot of great success since since our inception
I think. I think this week actually, we're releasing our
two hundredth episode. We've had around forty million downloads. We've
we've worked on several cases. To the cases that we've
worked have had their convictions vacated. Two of them right

(07:01):
now are in the process of testing a bunch of
DNA that we believe he is going to exonerate them.
We had one case that we got picked up by
the Innocence Project of Texas. Another one was grabbed by
the Conviction Integrity Unit in Dallas.

Speaker 1 (07:15):
So it's been it's been a wild rides.

Speaker 3 (07:18):
Nowhere near where I plan to be at this point
in my life, but it's where I am, and I'm
loving what I'm doing.

Speaker 2 (07:25):
How old are you because when you look at your picture,
you look like a young guy.

Speaker 1 (07:28):
Yeah, well thanks, I am a young guy. I'm thirty
eight years old.

Speaker 2 (07:31):
Oh yeah, you're a kid man.

Speaker 1 (07:32):
Yeah yeah.

Speaker 2 (07:34):
And you got the voice for it, that's for sure, okay,
and very well produced. Yet the production values in the show,
very very well done. I'm very impressed with the whole thing.
A truthanjusticepod dot Com. Now, you were saying in the
serial case that you came up with some exclusive information
in the serial case. What was a.

Speaker 3 (07:55):
Well, through the course of our investigation, we started, you know,
and again it started as almost like a fan show,
just talking. Well, then you know, we ran out of
information that was available publicly, and so I started digging. Well,
I had some questions about Hayman Lee's boyfriend, Don, and
we actually I was able to connect with a former
FBI profiler, Jim Clement, you who helped me work on

(08:15):
the case, and Jim Trenham, who's a false confessions expert,
And with Don, I started studying some of the exhibits
from trial, including his time cards, and there was a discrepancy.
You know, he was on the serial podcast it was
said that he had an airtight, rock solid alibi he
was at work. Well, as we dug a little deeper,
we noticed that he had two different time cards for

(08:37):
that week. He was originally presented a time card that
showed that he was off that day, and then later
presented a second time card that said he was working
that day. But what most people hadn't noticed was the
fact that the employee ID number, while the name was
the same, the employee ID number was different. On the
two started digging a little deeper actually contacted Lexatica, who's

(08:57):
the owner of Lens Crafters where he worked, and inquired
about the changing employee d numbers because he was supposedly
working at two different stores, and they confirmed that, know,
the employee ID number travels to whatever location you're working at.

Speaker 1 (09:12):
So there were some serious issues with the.

Speaker 3 (09:13):
Time cards and we start wondering, why is he you know,
it seems to be manufacturing alibi. Well then we through
the crowdsourcing, found other Lens Crafters managers from that time
who contacted me and said, you know, the weird thing
is the only way to create that timesheet would be
for the manager to do that. Well, his mother was
was the manager one of the stores, but not from

(09:34):
the store where the extra timesheet was created from. And
further investigation, through a lot of the same type of
work that you do at as a PI, was able
to find out which nobody knew this in including the
police nor the prosecutors or defense, that the second manager
at the second store, the one that created the timesheet
that alibied him for the murders, while didn't have the

(09:57):
same last name as him and didn't appe to be
related to him, was actually Don's mother's live in girlfriend
or life partner, however you want to put it. She
was a see it essentially been Don's.

Speaker 1 (10:10):
Step mother since he was twelve years old.

Speaker 3 (10:13):
So the mother worked at one store and the mother's
girlfriend worked at another store. So that opened up a
whole other can of worms there. And then you know,
since then that information has been turned over to annans
Ed's defense team. You know, his conviction has since been
vacated or waiting on appeals.

Speaker 1 (10:28):
But you know it, it was a pretty wild ride.

Speaker 3 (10:30):
To go from a guy making a fan show in
his basement to you know, being invited out to Baltimore
to meet with the defense team to go over all
this information.

Speaker 2 (10:39):
No, that's great work. I got a big smile on
my face. I love hearing that kind of stuff. You know,
how'd you find the how'd you originally find the time card?

Speaker 1 (10:46):
Though?

Speaker 2 (10:46):
Was it in the case? Well and Discovery? Howd you
find it?

Speaker 1 (10:49):
It was?

Speaker 3 (10:49):
Actually so another podcast called Undisclosed who was covering the case,
which really got me really deciding that I was going
to go ahead and make my own show. Was Undisclosed
was wasn't just taking the serial narrative of for granted,
they were digging deep and they were going through case files.
Robbia Shaudri, who was the reason ceial exists. She was
a lifelong friend of the Sayad family, and she's the

(11:11):
one that called Sarah kan Nig and got her a
convinced her to do the Serial podcast. She had all
the case files, so they would put them out a
little bits at a time. Well, and then Susan Simpson,
one of the lawyers that was on that podcast, had
discussed them a little bit and blogged about the discrepancies,
but never you know, never went any further with it.

(11:31):
You know, at that point, they weren't doing active investigations,
they or analyzing documents. So I just took her work
and took it a little bit further and decided to well,
you know, why not call Lens Crafters and find the
answer to this instead of speculating, Oh.

Speaker 2 (11:44):
Man, great work. Now I'm not familiar you know, I've
heard the Serial case and the Serial podcast, but I'm
not familiar with that case at all, And I wish
I had the time to just you know, you know,
follow all this kind of stuff that people get so
excited about. What other cases have you worked on with
your your podcast, the Truth injusticepod dot com.

Speaker 1 (12:03):
Well, from there we had and that's why.

Speaker 3 (12:05):
And we'll get into eventually where I'm at now covering
the West Memphis three case. But up until this point,
I had made a decision that I wasn't going to
cover any well known cases. What I wanted to do
is help people that had no help, you know, fight
for those with no one to help fight for them.
So for the season two case we took on was
a guy named Kenny the Blizzard Snow. He was a
professional boxer who his family had contacted me. He said

(12:27):
he was wrongfully in prison. It's a really complicated case.
It's almost film noir style. I mean, there's a lot
of layers of the story. But ultimately, while working on
his case, he tells me that part of a deal
that he'd made with the prosecutor in Smith County, Texas
was to falsely testify against a man named Edward Eights,
who was ultimately convicted of first green murder and sentenced

(12:49):
to ninety nine years in prison. And so Kenny Snow
tells me, you know, keep working my case, but you
should probably reach out to this at Eights guy, because
I don't know if he did it or not, but
I know what I said wasn't true, So I did that.
I wrote, I just cold wrote a letter to ed
Eight's which he tore up, and then I wrote him
another one and he finally decided to write me back.

(13:09):
And you know, within a few weeks later we took
on his case and realized pretty quickly that this was
clearly a case of wrongful conviction and it's just an
absolute tragedy what happened to this guy. And so our
season two case became about Edward Eights, which was the
murder of a woman who was found dead with her
nude with her throat slashed inside of her trailer.

Speaker 1 (13:29):
And ed was the neighbor boy.

Speaker 3 (13:31):
And that's a long complicated one, but there was that
was really an interesting case again with a lot of
layers in the midst of that. So both of these
took place in Smith County, Texas. In researching wrongful convictions,
and Smith County, because at the time they were known
to be one of the most corp DA's offices in
the country, came across another wrongful conviction, a guy named
carry Max Cook. Carrie Cook had actually gotten out on

(13:55):
an Alfred Plea twenty years ago, but was started trying
to fight for his actual innocence another case of obvious
wrongful conviction started working on his case as well. So
season two kind of became the Smith County cases, and
during the course of the podcast, we actually started working
with the Innocence Project and carry Max Cook's case and

(14:16):
through that, not necessarily through our work, but we were
there covering it. He finally was able to make his
case before a judge in Smith County who then vacated
his conviction, which is one when we get into the
West Memphis three case. You know, that's one of the
people say, well, this case is dead. They took an
Alford police, they already played guilty. It's over with. Well,
so carry Max Cook a little bit of a different circumstance,

(14:37):
but when new evidence was presented, his conviction was set aside.
And then after that we'd worked with I had convinced
the Innocent Project of Texas to take Edward Eight's case. Well,
then they came to me and said, and this is
about the time I decided to retire from the Fire
department and said, hey, we've got this case. A guy
named Jesse Eldridge where certain he's innocent, but there's no
way that we can prove it without a full on

(14:59):
a investigation, and we don't have the resources to do that.

Speaker 1 (15:02):
Will you take his case?

Speaker 3 (15:03):
And so that was our season three cases out of
Dallas County, Texas. Jesse Eldridge the murder of a woman
in kiow Gove. She was out for a walk and
was stabbed twenty one times and just left to die
in the side of the road. No parent motive. His
own brother actually told the police that he witnessed him
committing the crime three years after the fact, after several
times saying he had nothing to do with it. And

(15:24):
so we've worked We worked that case for about a
year and ultimately the Conviction Integrity Unit in Dallas County
took his case. And right now we've found lots of
exculpatory evidence, but we're looking for the smoking gun and
right now a lot of the evidence that they had said.
It's kind of an example of what we do. We
really try to dig deep into details and analyze one

(15:45):
little piece of the case at a time that we
don't miss anything.

Speaker 1 (15:48):
Well, the.

Speaker 3 (15:50):
Innocence Project had asked for DNA testing and they had
been told by the prosecutor's office that the DNA in
that case, all the evidence in that case was lost.
It was gone in particularly the victim's clothing. Excuse me,
And going through all of the notes, we found a
note from a detective years later that it was a

(16:12):
small little note that said he went to the medical
examiner's office to view the clothing. And so we relayed
that information to the Alson Clayton as the attorney that
was working the case for the Innocence Projects of Texas.
She went to the prosecutor, they went to the emmy's
office and boomed, there's the clothes and they did find
male DNA on the clothes that do not match Jesse Eldridge.

(16:34):
So we're hoping that will also result in an exoneration
and then in between there in the case we're working now,
the Innocence Project of Texas asked us to do a
quick kind of what we call a mini season on
another case of the There's a guy named George Powell
out of Bell County, Texas, South part of Texas who it's.

Speaker 1 (16:52):
A really interest.

Speaker 3 (16:53):
We only did six episodes on it, but it's stupid.
The wrongful conviction here this guy is six foot three
of robbing a seven to eleven store and sentenced to
twenty eight years for it. And there's video surveillance of
the robbery taking place and the assailant that robbed the
video store, and there was five robberies, actually five different stores.

(17:15):
He's only convicted of one. The guy is clearly five
foot six to five. It's a little bitty short guy
that robbed the stores. You can you know, you know
those convenience stores. You see the tape on the doors
when they walk out, clearly five six to five eight.
George Powell is six foot three. I mean he's a
full head and a half taller than this guy. And
the prosecution had some so called photogrammetry expert going convince

(17:39):
the jury that you know, they can't believe their own
eyes and that you know, the math says that's actually
a six foot three guy. That case is currently undergoing
hearings in in Bell County. They're still in the middle
of it right now, trying to vacate his conviction, which
I think that one's going to be a slam dunk.
They've got a new and actual expert from the FBI,
guy named Grant Fredericks, who did an actual analysis in

(18:02):
the proper manner of the photogrammetry work to get in
an accurate height of the of the assailant. And he
said that the guy's you know, five foot seven is
how tall the guy was that did it? So and
then that leads us to where right now, which is
a reinvestigation through crowdsourcing of the West Memphis three Now
the six.

Speaker 2 (18:21):
For three guy. Hey, I didn't catch his name, but
is he still doing time?

Speaker 4 (18:24):
Now?

Speaker 2 (18:24):
How much time did he get?

Speaker 3 (18:26):
He got twenty eight years, And yes, he's still doing time.
He's been in for I want to say nine years
at this point, and so he still got along. He's
got about nineteen years left to go. And so they're
hoping to overturn that conviction.

Speaker 1 (18:37):
George Powell was his name, and that was a homicide. No,
it was a robbery.

Speaker 4 (18:41):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (18:42):
He was convicted of robbering two robbing two cartons of
cigarettes and twelve dollars.

Speaker 1 (18:46):
Oh man, Yeah, for twenty eight years.

Speaker 2 (18:50):
I was going to make a bad joke, but I'm
not gonna Now. Now, when you take a case, how
many shows do you devote to the case.

Speaker 3 (19:00):
In that particular one, we had because we had already
had in the chamber our season five case, which is
the West Memphis three, So we had made an agreement
with the Innocent Project that we would do you know,
I would do it. You know, in this business, it's
an investigation, but it's also a production. So we'll do
a six episode arc on this case and cover all
the elements. It was that one was more about awareness

(19:20):
to draw up support for George and some opposition to
the prosecution. But typically we do as many episodes as
it takes, so I think the serial case was thirty
eight episodes, thirty nine maybe, and our season two case
was fifty five episodes, and then the season three case

(19:43):
was in the fifties as well, and that's one episode
a week, so each one took about a year. The
West Memphis three case, I have no idea, you know,
we're just at the beginning stages of it.

Speaker 1 (19:55):
We are right now.

Speaker 3 (19:57):
We are recording today actually our six episodes, so we're
six hours into a plus or on Fridays we do
a follow up episode, so we're twelve episodes in almost
and we have yet to say the name of Jason Baldwin,
Damien Echols or Jesse mss Kelly, we haven't gotten there yet.

Speaker 2 (20:12):
Yeah, now that's interesting. Why did you start with Well,
you know, I don't even want to get into that yet.
I'll make a little note. Okay, why did you start
with bo Jangles? Let me ask you bo Jangles. But
the thing is cant back to this snowcase the boxer
and you said, how I know what you're talking about.
The DA got them to testify falsely against somebody else.

(20:32):
When you were a fire investigator arson investigator. What kind
of did you see that kind of corruption behind the scenes.

Speaker 3 (20:39):
No, you know, I live at a small town in
the small area, and I think that I'm you know,
I've been pretty lucky to work with some great cops
and and some other great firefighters, and I think we
get basically the same training as police officers, but it's
got a different spin on it. You know, my instructor
that that taught me, you know, interview techniques and things
like that, and courses I've taken on my own and things.

(21:02):
It's very much was hammered into me. You search for
the truth, you don't. You don't have bias, you don't.
You don't go in there with an agenda and there's
and there's basically the exact opposite what a lot of
people do in a lot of cases that we've covered,
which is, you know, let people talk when you're interviewing them,
Listen to what they have to say, stop putting information
in their head. So no, I've I've never personally experienced

(21:26):
corruption like this in my own work.

Speaker 2 (21:29):
Okay, now, and now you mentioned okay, don't go into
this with bias. But then now the first episode, the
preview episode about the West Memphis three, like right off
the bat, you were saying that you feel that they're
wrongly convicted. How did you come to that conclusion.

Speaker 3 (21:42):
Well, I said, I don't go into it with bias.
But what people don't realize what we do our investigation
in real time. That's once we start really digging deep
into it, point by point. But I've been investigating this
case for six months before that, you know, I'd been
before we ever released the preview episode. I had been
I'd made three trips down to West men this, I've
spoken with many witnesses, I've gone through the thousands of

(22:04):
pages of documents, and so by the time I started it,
because it's part of a screening process for me, if
I had looked and seeing these guys are obviously guilty,
I would never have taken the case. Well, I may
have if I thought there was something we could do
to prove it, because ultimately, what we're doing is trying
to find justice for what we're on the forgotten three,
which was Christopher, Stevie and Michael. But you know, in

(22:28):
my initial screening, in the first six months of investigation,
which you know, and a lot of people tell me
they've you know, they've I've been investigating case for years.
I've been going over here, and that's true, and a
lot of them, I'm certain lots of them know a
lot more than I do about it. But he also
had to realize this is my full time job. I
mean when I say I've been investigating for six months,
I'm talking seventy hours a week for you know, five six,

(22:48):
seven days a week and multiple trips and witness interviews.
It's not just I've spent years reading documents on the website.

Speaker 2 (22:56):
Yeah, but if you go back to the old Usenet days,
forget it, there were people on there twelve hours a day.

Speaker 1 (23:04):
Oh yeah, I'm sure, sure.

Speaker 2 (23:06):
Getting involved in each other's lives and you know. I
tell you, you know, I hate this case, you know,
and I've been involved with it from the start, and
it's the most hostile, rude, A bunch of people who
are obsessed with this thing. How are you dealing with that?

Speaker 3 (23:26):
A series of warnings, deletings and then blockings, and it
comes from both sides. And to be honest, you know,
I've listened to a couple of your shows just kind
of prepp for this, and I know you've had some
people on that had talked about, you know, the West
Memphis Three supporters and how nastity can be online. And
I've seen some of that, and I've blocked some people
and deleted, but man, some of the West Memphis Three
are guilty, are just downright nasty.

Speaker 1 (23:48):
You know.

Speaker 3 (23:48):
They swooped in as soon as we started opening up
our Facebook page for discussion and things once we started,
and there's two there's our there's our Facebook page, and
then there's also a fan page that's I don't run
that actually has more. I think there's probably four or
five thousand people on that page. But man, it's like
somebody would somebody would make a post saying, you know, hey,
I want to talk about the Bojangles guy, and then

(24:09):
somebody comes in there to call him most stupid ass
redneck and most and fifteen links to Damian Eckles psych record.

Speaker 1 (24:16):
You know, they have nothing to nothing to do with it.

Speaker 3 (24:17):
And it's been tough for me because with my audience,
you know, I have I have a real mix dr
This is a this is a new thing for me
having a case that's so well known because I have,
you know, a few hundred thousand people that don't know
anything about the case, and probably a few hundred thousand
that know a little bit about the case or think
they know a lot about it, and then a few
that are that are really experts in it. And so

(24:39):
it's what's happening is it's discouraging the newcomers who are
trying to do what we do, which is to break
down evidence bit by bit, piece by piece, page by page,
letter by letter, and they can't have a conversation because
these jackasses come in and start, you know, completely off topic,
getting way ahead of where we're at. So the best
I've been able to do is I've warned p on

(25:00):
the show and on the page, and for the most
part we haven't had to ban too many people. Most
people have listened. You know, I have someone to say, Look,
you know, you're welcome to discuss this. I liked this
here both sides and and I like them back and forth.
But you need to be respectful and just start your
own posts. If you want to talk about Damien Eckles
sych records, for example, start your own post. Don't don't
snipe in on somebody who's trying to talk about something

(25:23):
completely different.

Speaker 2 (25:25):
How did you get an interview with Eccheles?

Speaker 1 (25:30):
It took a lot of work.

Speaker 3 (25:31):
You know, he right when he got out of prison,
he did a lot of interviews and then I don't
know if he knows it, but a few years ago
he just stopped he completely doing completely stopped doing any
kind of interviews. And you know I had I had
reached out to him and contacted his wife, Laurie, and
there was a lot of discussion, and they were really
hesitant to to do it. You know, I think they

(25:51):
just want to keep a low profile. And then you know,
over time, you know, I eventually said, you know, listen,
all I want to do is go talk to Damien
and get his story firsthand, and I'll let him talk
about what he thinks should happen moving forward, and that's it,
and they agreed to it. So we you know, hopped
on a plane, went to New York and sat down
and interviewed Damien.

Speaker 2 (26:13):
So you contacted Damien and Laurie directly.

Speaker 3 (26:17):
Yeah, so Damian, I was it was a little you know,
I think I originally contacted him through Twitter and you know,
and he was responsive, but he basically said, I just
you know, you know, good luck. I appreciate what you're doing,
but I don't really want to be involved. And then
it got to be a little and with Laurie, I
think it got to be as we were.

Speaker 1 (26:35):
I think with Laurie was I had I had reached out.

Speaker 3 (26:37):
Jason Baldwin actually had put me in contact with Rachel Geyser,
who was one of the pis that had worked on
their case years ago and had and lives in in
Memphis and has and has a bunch of the case files.
I talked to her and she said, listen, I can't
share this with you because it's actually owned by Damien
because we worked for him, so he has to release

(26:59):
the work product.

Speaker 1 (27:00):
Then I got in touch with Laurie.

Speaker 3 (27:01):
About that and and eventually was able to convince him
to let me fly out and do an interview.

Speaker 2 (27:07):
And did you ever do with his PR firm?

Speaker 1 (27:10):
No, not at all. I don't think he has one
that they hasn't had a PR firm in years.

Speaker 2 (27:14):
Okay, so he agreed to an interview with it and
you sat down. How long was the interview?

Speaker 3 (27:22):
The actual interview we recorded was I think it's about
an hour. We haven't even edited it yet, but we
were there for for two or three hours altogether, you know,
before and after, you know, we walked because we did
it right there in his apartment. And actually when we
got there, it was just it was just us on
Laurie for a little while and we chatted just kind
of a little bit about the case and stuff, and
then Damie came out.

Speaker 1 (27:42):
We chatted for a few minutes.

Speaker 3 (27:44):
You know, I was always in a pre interview, you know,
we talked about you know, this is kind of what
we want to cover.

Speaker 1 (27:49):
Whatever he was. It's funny because I've heard I've heard.

Speaker 3 (27:52):
So many people, even I think people that you've had
on your show say how he tells people what questions
they can ask. It's total bullshit. I asked, Damien, Oh,
I'm sorry, I don't know if I can.

Speaker 2 (28:00):
Wear on your shoe now we can't.

Speaker 1 (28:02):
Hopefully somebody's got a ten second delay, but it is.
It's bs.

Speaker 3 (28:07):
You know what what I told him, you know, want
to go over what we want to ask in His
exact words for me were, let's let's let's just do
this in one shot. Ask me whatever you want to
ask me, and let's just let's just knock it out.
Never never directed me what I can or cannot ask him,
nothing like that. He just he just was an open
book and said, you know, I'll answer any question you
have and let's do this.

Speaker 1 (28:27):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (28:27):
And then when we were done, we you know, he
he he told us about a show we should go watch.
We were in New York and and told us to
go try some artichoke pizza, which we did.

Speaker 1 (28:34):
It was good.

Speaker 2 (28:35):
Okay, So now, uh, why did you choose the side
to start off with stuff like the bo Jangles?

Speaker 3 (28:44):
Well, if you if you're if you're paying attention when
you listen, we're going chronologically, and that's how I do
every and this case is no different than any other one.
We go chronologically through the case. We we throw out
now we we have of course, you know, all the
police records and trial testimony and all that stuff for
reference when we get there. But if this is a
wrongful conviction, and I say if, because we haven't determined

(29:06):
one hundred percent if it is or not, uh, then
then clearly the investigation went wrong somewhere. So what we
always do is we go back to the very beginning.

Speaker 1 (29:15):
Uh. We study victimology, which.

Speaker 3 (29:17):
Is something that there was the police just did a
terrible job of a state, which is the first step
in any investigation is to establish victimology.

Speaker 1 (29:26):
And then and then the media later even that you know,
put it out.

Speaker 3 (29:29):
You know, I noticed on on a couple of shows
and and it's no, no insulting you at all, because
I was the same way. It's one of the reasons
I took this case. You know, you had to take
a couple of minutes to look up the name of
one of the victims, Christopher Buyers, and and the reason
for that is because no one has ever focused on
the victims. It's always been about the West Memphis three. Uh,
and we it's it's not this case is about Christopher Buyers,

(29:52):
Stevie Branch and Michael Moore.

Speaker 1 (29:54):
And that's and that's our goal. So we go right
to the beginning.

Speaker 3 (29:57):
We did an episode on victimology, and then we went
from there to the search, and then from the search
we go on to discovery. And then the very first
lead that comes in on the night that the boys
were missing, before the bodies were even found, was mister
bo Jangles was So that's why we went with Bojangles next,
because that's what happened next.

Speaker 2 (30:17):
Yeah. One thing that always upsets me about the Bojangles
complaints is, like you said, because I was listening today,
is that the cop the next call that the cop
went on out on was an egg throwing incident. Right now. No,
if I was looking for three little kids and then
I saw a egg throwing incident, I would think, well,

(30:37):
there's the kids. Yeah, let me go away, that's where
they are, you know. But yeah, yeah, yeah, I know,
but people don't think that way. Uh So go ahead.

Speaker 1 (30:47):
Well, I was just gonna say, you're you're absolutely right.

Speaker 3 (30:48):
And that's actually one of the things in the episode
we're recording today that'll drop on Sunday. We're talking about
that a little bit, the egg throwing incident. As we're
going through the door to door notes that what a
lead that was, as far as we know, was never
never followed up on. So actually I'm filing an open
re record request right now for that report because we
did find the door to door notes that the owner
of the house where the egg throwing incident came in

(31:10):
said that they knew the kids that threw the eggs
and that they're around the neighborhood all the time. So
I don't know that the police ever talk to those
kids because in the notes they don't have any names there,
but you know, these are kids. I don't know if you
know where that addresses at were the egg throwing. Have
you ever looked on a map, But it's about one
hundred yards away from the pipe at nine o'clock when.

Speaker 1 (31:28):
The call came in for the egg throwing.

Speaker 3 (31:30):
So the kids that were throwing the eggs, that were
running around the neighboro that day very well may have
seen something. So we're searching for them right now now.

Speaker 2 (31:37):
Of those kids could have been Damien and Jesse and
Bold that.

Speaker 3 (31:41):
Could have been although they said they were kids they
knew from the neighborhood, and you know, Damien didn't look
far from there, but Baldwin and miss Kelly certainly weren't
from the neighborhood.

Speaker 2 (31:49):
Yeah, but Damien had previously lived right across the street.

Speaker 3 (31:53):
Yeah, well, when Damien lived in the Mayfair apartments was
years ago? When I mean it was, I think he'd
been out it had been ten years. If I'm not taken,
and you may know better than me, is that he'd
lived in Mayfair.

Speaker 2 (32:03):
Okay, Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if it
was ten years. But you know how it is, you
see a kid, you know he's seen ten years later,
it looks the same. Now. Sure, What is it though,
that came that made you think that they weren't good
for this crime, that they're wrongly convicted.

Speaker 3 (32:17):
Well, there's a lot of things that go involved in it.
So if you throw out all that everybody you know
knows or thinks they know about the case based on
the documentaries and what happened to trial. I mean, people
have to realize, you know, everybody always wants to cite
trial transcripts. There is useful information in trial transcripts, but
once once a case goes to trial, it's nothing more

(32:38):
than a chess match. It's spin by definition. You know,
the prosecutor's job is to try to create a picture
for the jury that makes the person look guilty, and
the defense job is to try to paint a picture
that makes them look innocent. So it's your factual information
comes from police reports and handwritten statements and crime scene.
So when we start investigating the crime scene itself and

(33:01):
breaking it down, and this is I know this is
an area up for dispute, but the crime scene has
been analyzed by the father of criminal profiling, John Douglas,
the guy that that and and before we get there,
from from a previous episode, No, I don't believe that
Damian Eckles used mind control on John Douglas. John Douglas
investigates the crime scene and he sees because the first

(33:23):
I investigate the crime scene.

Speaker 1 (33:24):
Now, I'm no expert.

Speaker 3 (33:25):
I've been working on on on crime scene evaluation of
profiling for a few years and I've had some good teachers.
But to me, it looked like this is someone with
a known personal relationship with these victims.

Speaker 1 (33:35):
Probably an authority figure.

Speaker 3 (33:36):
Well, then I read through John Douglas's statement, he's a
known personal relationship and there's a lot of indicators in
the crime scene to show that, and probably an authority figure.
To the victims, and then and then, so then I
take it over to Jim Clemente, another FBI profiler, world
renowned FBI profiler, and guess what his profile the crime

(33:57):
scene is somebody with a known personal relationship to the victims.
All both of them say, no evidence of from anything
they've seen.

Speaker 1 (34:05):
And these guys have worked tens.

Speaker 3 (34:06):
Of thousands of homicide cases, including satanic cult killings.

Speaker 1 (34:12):
Nothing to do with it.

Speaker 3 (34:13):
So then we move on to Laura Richards, another world
renowned profiler that has worked with the FBI and is
from New Scotland yard and guess what her analysis of
the crime scene is, No satanic killing. This is someone
with a known personal relationship to the boys, an authority figure.
And all three of them, by the way, also say
this is this is this is not a teenager, this
is something. This is a mature adult or adults that

(34:34):
committed this murder. So that's a pretty good indicator. And
there's lots of people that I have other opinions, but
it always amazes me to hear people say that, you know, well,
I've been reading on Callahan for ten years and I
know more than John Douglas, Jim Clementy, and Laura Richards
about this who this being the first murder of these

(34:55):
people have ever looked into. But in any case, that's
that's still it's not evidence by it, but it's a
certainly good indicator. And then we look at, so what
forensic evidence do we have on the scene that ties
these boys to the to the crime.

Speaker 2 (35:09):
Well, let me stop you for a second about Douglas. Okay, Now,
there was something about mind control. Someone said that Damien
had mind control over Douglas.

Speaker 3 (35:16):
Was it, I think it was? Is it William somebody
you had on your on your show. Yeah, And he
was talking about Damian Eckles and and and and and I'm.

Speaker 1 (35:26):
Paraphrasing, I don't and I don't mean to misquot him.
And I liked the guy, by the way. He's not
he was. It was a good, good episode to listen to.

Speaker 3 (35:31):
But uh, he had said something along the lines of
I used to respect John Douglas until he lost his
mind on this case.

Speaker 1 (35:39):
And I don't know. And then he said, I don't
know Damien.

Speaker 3 (35:43):
He was talking about Damien Eckles and all of his
mind control techniques he uses through his satanic rituals, and
maybe he used mind control on John Douglas, and it
was just for me listen to it. It's like, you know,
it's hard to have a valid argument if if you
can't be consistent across the field, you know, to say
I respect John Douglas. He's what he said was I
respect John Douglas until he disagreed with me.

Speaker 2 (36:03):
Well, you gotta know, William Ramsey, he's an attorney. He
was involved in DC with the what was that case?
The Vince Foster case and stuff like that. Very credential guy,
is a very serious guy.

Speaker 3 (36:15):
Oh he seemed and he seemed like a real sharp guy.
I don't mean to be I don't mean to be
hating on him at all. It's just that particular part
of it. It was like, come on, you lost respect
for a guy because the only thing you could cite
was that he disagreed with Well, I gotta tell you.

Speaker 2 (36:25):
I've lost respect for Douglas too because of the way
he treated Terry Hobbs. You know, and I don't know
if you heard what Terry Hobbs had to say about
his involved with Douglas. You know interesting too. You know
there's another connection too between Clemente and Vince Foster. Are
you aware of that. No, I would love to talk
to Clemente about this. There's a there's a page in
the Vince Foster file by Clemente about child abductions connected

(36:48):
somehow to the Vince Foster case.

Speaker 1 (36:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (36:51):
I'm not even familiar with that case. Oh okay, I
couldn't tell you anything about it.

Speaker 2 (36:54):
It's just fascinating, uh okay. And also too, you know
there's a scene too there's a photograph of Douglas with
Echols and there's tarot cards on the on the table there.
What do you make of that?

Speaker 1 (37:08):
You'd have to ask Douglas about it.

Speaker 3 (37:10):
Yeah, I mean I think that was the discussion guys
were having about about mind control. So I mean, if
Damien is into tarot cards, I don't know where they
were meeting.

Speaker 1 (37:19):
Maybe I have no idea what that was up.

Speaker 3 (37:21):
And I think i'd be speculation for anybody to make
any assumption there.

Speaker 2 (37:24):
Okay. And you said earlier that you felt led. What
is your faith in your belief personally? I'm a Christian okay, Yeah,
I'm a Christian two as well, and so is William
Ramsay by the way. Okay, and so then kind of
well I interrupted you. You were moving on after Douglas
to talk about something else. Do you remember what that was?

Speaker 3 (37:45):
Okay, yeah, So well then then we start looking at
forensic evidence. Okay, well there's there because with any wrongful conviction,
you should be able to tell pretty quickly how it happened,
and and and you should be able to point to
an alternative theory that's at least plausible.

Speaker 1 (37:58):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (37:58):
And I don't necessarily want to get into the adult theories.
But so we look at the crime scene, we look
for forensic evidence. Uh, and there's nothing, literally zero, that
points to the three that did it. Now, now, a
lack of evidence, what do they say, an absence of
evidence isn't evidence of absence? I agree with that, But
there is there is forensic evidence on the scene that

(38:19):
points to other people. Now now not necessarily in regards
to known as the Hobbs hair, I'm well aware that
that may not be his hair, but whose hair we
know it isn't is any of the West Memphis three.
There's a fingerprint, one sole fingerprint found on the crime
scene and doesn't belong to any one of the three.
So we start having some questions and then and then
we get into well, the biggest problem, I mean, the

(38:40):
biggest problem with this case is Jesse ms Kelly's multiple confessions.

Speaker 2 (38:45):
Let me step here for a second, because weren't there
fibers found that they're consistent with the homes of the
three can confessed killers.

Speaker 3 (38:51):
You know, there were fibers found that they couldn't rule out.
For example, one of them was a And this is
an overleach. And I'll point out too, it's always the
same people that say a hair that DNA matches within
one point five percent of the population that they can't
roll out.

Speaker 1 (39:11):
Terry Hobbs is ridiculous. Evidence means nothing but a red
red fiber that is consistent with any red piece of
clothing that you could buy at Walmart in the world
is a match to Jason Baldwin's house because his mother
had a red robe. I mean, so, yeah, there was
a red fiber that couldn't be ruled out that it
could have come from Jason Baldwin's mother's robe. So I

(39:35):
think if we're going to use that as forensic evidence,
then we can't have the same position.

Speaker 2 (39:39):
But earlier he said there was none.

Speaker 3 (39:41):
Well, I don't consider that evidence. I mean, in any case,
if I find a red fiber, and all I can
be told about the fiber is that it came from
a red piece of clothing with this material, and there's
millions of those materials. Now, say if say one of
the suspects was seen wearing a red shirt of that

(40:01):
material and it can be matched to that shirt, that's
evidence saying, well, if you go back to his house,
his mother has a robe that's made out of the
same material, and we can't even say it's a match
to that, but we can say that it could be
from that.

Speaker 1 (40:14):
I mean, give me a break, Okay.

Speaker 2 (40:17):
And what about the I know it didn't make it
into court, but the blood on a.

Speaker 3 (40:21):
Necklace, And that's another one, which is it's been stated
that I think it was set on your show that
it was Christopher Byers, but I think it was actually
Stevie Branch is the one that was related to. But
that again, there was this necklace found of Damiens that
had some of Damien's blood on it, and they said
a spec of blood that they could not get a

(40:43):
DNA profile off of, but that could be consistent based
on blood type with Stevie Branch could be which again,
you know, as we move on with this, if you
got to hold the same standard of evidence against everyone,
you know, so if you have if we're going to
say that a drop of blood that could, through blood

(41:04):
type maybe be Stevie Branches, then we don't get to
follow that up by saying the hair that the DNA
was a match within one point five percent of Terry
Hobbs means nothing.

Speaker 2 (41:18):
I can appreciate that, But we also can't say that
there's zero forensic evidence at the scene. When there is
blood and there is fiber. It may not be one
hundred percent sure, but it's there. Now, what about the
eyewitnesses who saw them walking down that road over there, Well.

Speaker 1 (41:32):
Let's talk about those eyewitnesses.

Speaker 3 (41:33):
So we're talking about Narlene Hollingsworth and her whole family,
right right.

Speaker 1 (41:37):
What did they see? What did their statements say?

Speaker 2 (41:42):
Well, I haven't read it in about ten years, but
the thing is they say they saw Damien, they knew
Damien right, and they saw flowered pants I think it
was or mud on the pants. Yeah, they saw mud
on their clothes and walking down the road.

Speaker 3 (41:53):
They said they saw Damien Echles and Domini tear his
girlfriend walking down the road and dominiti tiers. They saw
them well enough to specifically describe Dominieeer's pants as being
black pants with white flowers on them. Right, And then
the prosecution tried to make a case that she could
have mistaken Dominie for Jason Baldwin, which Narlene Hollingsworth said,

(42:15):
absolutely not, that's my niece. I know that was Dominie Teer.
So Damien walking in the area with Dominie Tear is
more of an alibi than an implication, unless you don't
believe Jesse Miss Kelly's confession because Dominie had nothing to
do with any event.

Speaker 2 (42:33):
Well, you know, well, but they did spot Damien there
with mud on his pants.

Speaker 1 (42:41):
Right, she said that he had muddy pants.

Speaker 2 (42:45):
Yeah, okay, all right, and Dominie listen, I'm no fan
of Domini Tier okay, and her background and all the stuff.
Her whole family and stuff is up to my whole
family drinks blood, Domini tear, you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (43:00):
Right, But see some of those statements, a lot of
those statements.

Speaker 3 (43:03):
Have you ever gone back to the source documents of
where those statements came from? How many of them can
be rooted actually back to dominiq.

Speaker 2 (43:10):
Tear well, I think that one comes from.

Speaker 3 (43:12):
Mark hearsay, that came from someone else who said she
said that, which she, by the way denies.

Speaker 2 (43:18):
She denies it now. But her cousin TJ. Tier. You
know about her background, TJ.

Speaker 1 (43:26):
Tier, the she's the one that supposedly not supposed to something.

Speaker 2 (43:31):
To do with vampires or the spokesperson for all vamporism
in Transylvania. Sure okay, had had a magazine about and
also she's the one that sent over all that stuff
that that material about music to sacrifice children too, So
there's no doubt that the blood drinking existed in the

(43:51):
Tier clan through TJ.

Speaker 1 (43:53):
Tier.

Speaker 2 (43:54):
She was fascinating and obsessed with this.

Speaker 3 (43:56):
So but a lot of this stuff becomes becomes rhetoric
and distract from the actual crime scene. So even if
Dominitier drank blood, what does that have to do with
the crime when the.

Speaker 1 (44:06):
Person that confesses that that we're supposedly believing right says
she was nowhere near it.

Speaker 2 (44:13):
No, okay, listen, but we both know the confessions. You know,
defendants or suspects who confess will not confess one hundred
percent of the truth, and they have self serving statements
in there, especially a guy like Miscelly who might be
protective of Dominiitier and not want her to be involved

(44:35):
in this case because he's that type of guy. You know,
he seems to be the only one out of the
three with any kind of conscience at all.

Speaker 1 (44:40):
Right, Well, it depends on if you believe him.

Speaker 3 (44:45):
Well, by the way, if you believe him, then you
have to throw out half the evidence from the crime scene.

Speaker 2 (44:51):
Well, like I said, you know.

Speaker 1 (44:55):
He will.

Speaker 2 (44:55):
He'll make self serving statements.

Speaker 3 (44:58):
You know, I like the fact that he he grabbed
one of the kids. I think he said he beat
Michael Moore over the head. You know, he's already been convicted.
What is he trying to distance himself from. Well, he
admitted and confessed to something that's going to send him
to prison for the rest of his life. He couldn't
get the death penalty because he was a minor. So
what's what's he trying to protect himself from.

Speaker 2 (45:21):
Well, I don't know, but why would he How about
let's start with it with all his confessions, the Buddy
Lucas confession before he ever even talked to the cops.
Why would he make that?

Speaker 3 (45:32):
Well, that's that that particular confession is, And to be honest,
I don't know a lot of I haven't studied much
of that one, other than the fact that it was
a statement by Buddy Lucas claiming that after Buddy Lucas
was a suspect. But you know, I think if you're
going to focus on his confessions, you need to focus
on the ones that we actually know he said that
are recorded, and there's a few of them.

Speaker 2 (45:52):
Well no, wait, we know the Buddy Lucas won't exist
because even Buddy Lucas had his shoes on his.

Speaker 3 (45:57):
Feet, Buddy Lucas having his shoes doesn't give you any
proof of what Jason jesse ms Kelly actually said.

Speaker 2 (46:05):
Okay, so then uh it would be like a coincidence.
And I'm not trying to argue, we're gonna ultimately we're
gonna wind up disagree. Okay, you know, but no hard feelings.
I got no hard feelings. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (46:19):
But then yeah, I'm just saying that there are if
we want to talk to confessions instead of instead of
you know, hearsay stuff, we can talk about the stuff
that we actually know he said.

Speaker 1 (46:27):
Because that's one thing that I do that if you've
listened to my show at.

Speaker 3 (46:30):
All you notice is I don't believe anybody, you know,
I believe in evidence and hard facts and things we prove.
So you know, we have recorded confessions from Jesse mus Kelly.
So those are those are fact, those are undisputed. The
Buddy Lucas confession can be disputed. It's it's hearsay. It
wouldn't be allowed in court because it's here.

Speaker 2 (46:48):
Say well, no, no, no, it would be allowed in
court because the defendant's right there and he can testify
against if he could say no, I didn't say that.

Speaker 1 (46:55):
Okay, Yeah, you're you're right there.

Speaker 2 (47:00):
I'm freezing in this room, right, you have no it.
I'm like chipping over here because my room is so cold.
But the thing is okay, So let's get over all
the confessions that you don't like the Buddy Lucas confession
because it's secondhand, because Buddy Lucas is coming in and
you don't believe Buddy Lucas.

Speaker 3 (47:17):
Well, I'm not even saying that. I mean, I mean
he has, you know, motivation to line everything. All I'm saying,
and we can talk about it if you want to. Yeah,
all I'm saying is we don't have any proof that
it was actually said when there are confessions that we
do have proof of what he said.

Speaker 2 (47:31):
Okay, So Buddy Lucas, you're ruling out because there's no.

Speaker 1 (47:34):
Ruling it out.

Speaker 3 (47:35):
Really, what I'm just saying, it's it's any discussion we
have on it has got to be premise with the
fact that we don't know that jesse ms Kelly actually
said it.

Speaker 2 (47:41):
Right, So it would be like any any witness testimony
and any witness coming in, any kind of informant coming
in and saying this is what I know, this is
what I found out. But it was said, we agree
that Buddy Lucas made these accusations that jessic Ris Kelly
came to me the day before he was crying. He
gave me these shoes. He said, I don't want to
see those shoes anymore. All that stuff actually happened, right, Okay,

(48:03):
And so but you're not giving that enough, you don't.
You don't get that a lot of.

Speaker 3 (48:08):
Weight, no, because I mean, I mean, I'm sure you've
studied Buddy Lucas, and there's, like I said, he had
a lot of reasons.

Speaker 1 (48:15):
To to lie.

Speaker 3 (48:16):
He was being looked at as a suspect, and then
and then all of a sudden he he has it
later than Also, Oh, by the way, Jesse, miss Kelly
gave me these shoes and he was crying, and and
this whole story it may be true, it may not be.

Speaker 1 (48:30):
I I have I have no idea. All I'm saying
is I don't know if the confession actually happened.

Speaker 2 (48:35):
But even though Buddy was being question you don't think
Buddy Lucas did this right?

Speaker 1 (48:39):
No?

Speaker 2 (48:39):
Okay, So then he would really have nothing to be
worried about.

Speaker 3 (48:43):
Well, that's to make it. He looked at as a
murder suspect. You think I have nothing to be worried about.

Speaker 2 (48:48):
Well, yeah, but if you if you know, you didn't
do it, and I can star I'm making up lies
about your cousin and you know he just happened to
have his shoes on your feet.

Speaker 1 (48:54):
Sure, okay, So I mean instead of just beating the.

Speaker 2 (48:57):
Dead horse here, I know, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 (48:59):
What do you want to what do you want talking
about Buddy Luke?

Speaker 2 (49:02):
And by the way, too, you got to remember too,
I haven't delved into this case in ten years, you know,
I haven't sat down and read documents, and so ten
years ago, even more than it, maybe fifteen years ago.
So a lot of this I'm just going by memory, okay,
And I'm an old guy. I'm fifty five years a
lot older than you. It's like thirty degrees in my
apartment here. Now, what about the next confession? I guess
the next confession in sequence is the one where he

(49:23):
actually came in. He was trying to get the reward
and he sat down and he gave a written confession
right right.

Speaker 3 (49:29):
And real quickly. What you said you want to talk
about Buddy Lucas. I just pulled up a note from
him just for reference sake. The first time Buddy Lucas
was interviewed, he said, quote, Jesse gave me shoes to
wear home about four months ago. This is in June tenth,
by the way, And he says four months ago because
I got mine Muddy, me and Billy Moore and Jesse
when we were four wheeling. Just so you know, that's

(49:51):
how that confession started. Was four months ago, Jesse gave
me shoes. And then later when he became a suspect.
Now it happened on May fifth and was a confession.

Speaker 2 (50:00):
Okay, man, do we know if it's the same shoes,
different shoes, maybe game shoes all the time.

Speaker 3 (50:04):
No, it's it specifically says they're blue and white Adidas,
which are the same ones mentioned in the confession.

Speaker 2 (50:10):
Okay, I'll have to go back and take a look
at that. Now, what about the confession where he comes
in to try and by the way, we're down to
about five minutes before the break, okay, and what about
then It's gonna take a long time to get that confession.
But what's your problem with that confession.

Speaker 1 (50:24):
With the recorded one of the police?

Speaker 2 (50:26):
Yeah, the one I supposed he took twelve hours.

Speaker 3 (50:28):
Well, to put it in a nutshell, it's it's well,
it didn't take twelve hours, yeah, you know, but there
was a large period that was not recorded prior to.

Speaker 1 (50:38):
The biggest issue I.

Speaker 3 (50:39):
Have with it is his confession doesn't match the crime
scene at all. And when we're when we're doing a
statement analysis, and I've worked a lot with Stan Burch,
who's also with the FBI on and with statement analysis,
you're looking for a lot when you're looking for a lie,
you're looking for a utility in the lie. And you
could say he's trying to diss himself, but he's not
in any of these lies and the deep tails that

(51:01):
he's giving everything from the time of day to sexual
assault that didn't happen, to the bindings they used to
tie them up.

Speaker 2 (51:09):
You know.

Speaker 3 (51:09):
You know, in that entire interview, he's only asked five
open ended questions. You realize that, I think there was
like ninety three questions where they were yes or so
this happened, right, Yes, there was five questions that were
open ended, and he got all five of them wrong.
And that includes the way they were bound the even
mixing up which victim was which, and the sexual assault

(51:33):
that didn't take place, you know, So that's just a
red flag, is you know, he's confessing to something that's
going to cause him to go to prison for the
rest of his life.

Speaker 1 (51:42):
But he has the detail. He's not saying I wasn't there.

Speaker 3 (51:46):
He's saying, no, I was there, and I did this,
and I chased my down Michael Moore, and I grabbed
him and brought him back. But I'm going to change
the color of the you know, they used brown rope,
not black shooting. No mention of taking the shoe strings
out of the shoes, you know, to tie them up.
That didn't happen talking them about a knife, and the
knife he describes doesn't match forensically, which, by the way,
I don't think any to the forensic servit with the

(52:08):
knife scratches a whole different thing. But ultimately, to put
it short, there's some issues there in the fact that
anytime he actually is asked an open ended question to
give a detail, he gets it wrong. And also one
thing I have experienced with for seven years while I
was a fireman still on the rig before I was
the chief, I worked as a substitute teacher for a

(52:29):
school for emotionally ampaired kids. Kids you know, most of
them ranging the IQs anywhere from sixty to ninety IQs
with emotional impairments, a lot of them just like Jesse,
and I just know from years of training and working
with kids like that that you can literally convince someone
of Jesse's and telling I'm not saying they did this,

(52:49):
but or whether and if they did, if it was
even intentional, but you can get them to say or
do literally anything they have an inherent design or to please,
because especially authority figures.

Speaker 2 (53:02):
Because you don't think Jesse's very smart.

Speaker 1 (53:06):
No, I don't think he's very bright.

Speaker 2 (53:07):
That's very interesting because now you just joined the the
West Memphis three Friends group on Facebook.

Speaker 1 (53:13):
Me.

Speaker 2 (53:14):
Yeah, didn't you, because I just saw you know what.
I assumed it to you because I saw a posting
there saying, Hey, I'm doing a crowdsource investigation. Does anybody
want to get involved? That's not me, really, Okay, I
have to go back and look, because yeah, and it's
the one where they're talking about raising money for Jesse.
Because you just got arrested for the deep for the
the no insurance and stuff.

Speaker 1 (53:34):
That's not you, nothing to do with it.

Speaker 2 (53:36):
I apologize about that because I'm a member of that group.
And the woman who first his neighbor and good friend,
Joanne Henderson.

Speaker 1 (53:44):
Have you talked to her, No, But I've talked to Jesse.

Speaker 2 (53:47):
Okay, Well she uh, she's the one who told us
he just got arrested. She was raising money for him,
and she lives right next door to him, and her
kids go fishing with him almost every day. And when
he got out of jail, he went straight to her house.
And what she just said to me was he's not stupid.
He's a very smart man.

Speaker 1 (54:06):
Could be. I mean, I don't know him. That well,
I mead him once. I know that.

Speaker 3 (54:09):
I think they actually gave him an IQ test and yeah,
but he scored somewhere in the eighties something like that.

Speaker 2 (54:14):
We're taking a break where with Bob Rouff Truth injusticepod
dot com and we're talking about the West Memphis three
and the Truth and Justice to West Memphis three. We'll
be back with more of Bob ruff right after these messages.

(54:35):
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Speaker 4 (59:24):
L prepare your mind to experience.

Speaker 1 (59:50):
American Freedom Radio. It's the and now you're his investigator.

Speaker 2 (01:00:21):
Okay, welcome back to the Opperman Report. Okay, while we
were gone, I made some hot tea. I turned up
the heat. I got a shirt on. Now I'm gonna
start sweating this time. And I don't hope it'll make
it too hot. But oh my god, I have never
been in a situation that I started shivering during an interview.

(01:00:43):
It's not like I take I take most of you.
This is live, okay, where with Bob Ruff it was
very patient putting up with me. His website is Truth
injusticepod dot com and uh, you can find his podcast
on audio Boom and it's called again Truth and Justice.
The West Memphis Three, former arts and investigator, got a

(01:01:06):
background in investigations, doing very professional work. I appreciate it.
I got a lot of respect for you. Okay, Bob,
don't don't get me wrong.

Speaker 1 (01:01:13):
Okay, I appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (01:01:15):
No, not sure sure, come on now now. And I
like the way you know, I listened to the bow
Jangles interview. I like the way you're doing this now.
One question I have for you is this, Uh, with
the three, they've they've pointed the finger like you said
at Hobbs. Previously they pointed the finger at buyers. Why

(01:01:37):
would it be if miss Kelley is the one who's
making all these confessions. And we'll get back to the
confessions methodically, But if miss Kelley is the one making
all these confessions, why is it that never in all
of these years Jason and Damien would point the finger
at miss Kelley and say, well, maybe he did it.

Speaker 1 (01:01:57):
But again, that's other question you have to ask them.
I don't know the answer to that.

Speaker 3 (01:02:01):
I mean, other than there's, you know, other than his confessions,
there's no evidence that jessemus Kelly was there.

Speaker 1 (01:02:07):
And in fact, there was I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:02:08):
I think a dozen witnesses that testified at trial that
he was actually with them that night. There was there
was also a police disturbance out at his trailer park
that night, and several witnesses that says that Jesse mimus
Kelly was there during that fight. And again there's nothing
even the bits of you know we're talking about that
the fiber you mentioned earlier, there's not even that with
jessemus Kelly. There's nothing indicating that he was there. Even

(01:02:32):
the shoes that Buddy Lucas you mentioned that gave the police,
there was no evidence there on those shoes that they
were attached to the crime in any way.

Speaker 2 (01:02:40):
Well, there is the Evan Williams whiskey bottle, right.

Speaker 3 (01:02:43):
Well, yeah, when he says what a year later that
he had thrown a whiskey bottle at a bridge and
they found a bottle at that bridge, and what they say,
there was no label on it, but they took it
to a liquor store and it looks like it's in
Evan Williams bottle. I mean, that's still no evidence on
the crime. I'm see that's evidence to corroborates something that
he said. But the crime scene itself, which is in

(01:03:05):
my opinion where I mean, most of the stuff that
gets discussed about this case from people that think that
they're guilty, they can't point to any actual evidence. It's
all this circumstantial. You know that an Evan Williams bottle
broken on an overpass a mile away from the crime
scene is evidence that Jesse mus Kelly was there. I mean,
it corroborates what he said, that part of it anyway, maybe,

(01:03:28):
I mean, we don't know when that bottle was there
or or if it.

Speaker 1 (01:03:32):
Came from him. There were no fingerprints pulled off it
or anything.

Speaker 2 (01:03:35):
Okay, but he knew it was there. Yeah, yeah, And
the alibi witnesses, You like those alibi witnesses, You believe
those alibi witnesses, don't.

Speaker 1 (01:03:45):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:03:46):
I mean again, it's I don't believe anybody. I know
that there was a lot of people that said they
were with him that night, right, and that's a whole
lot of people. But the thing about an alibi witness
isn't and you know he discuss alibis for a minute.

Speaker 1 (01:03:59):
We recently had Michael.

Speaker 3 (01:04:00):
Where, the executive director of the Innocence Project of Texas,
on the show last month, and Michael said, in forty
years of working in criminal defense, he's never one time
ever seen an alibi work in court. They're worthless, meaning
that because you know, if you have an alibi, it's
you were with someone that is obviously a family or
a friend, and jury's don't believe families are friends, you know,

(01:04:24):
of the of the accused.

Speaker 2 (01:04:25):
Okay, but yeah, right, But when you agree though, that
if you have a credible alibi, that the cops will
drop the investigation once they've confirmed that credible alibi.

Speaker 3 (01:04:35):
They should, they absolutely should. But that doesn't always happen.

Speaker 2 (01:04:40):
But that, but that's why when you get to court
and you got a crappy alibi, it never works.

Speaker 1 (01:04:44):
Well, I mean I wouldn't.

Speaker 3 (01:04:45):
I wouldn't call Jesse mss Kelly's crappy alibi crappy. I mean,
he didn't come in there with one person saying yeah
I knew where he was at. A dozen people come
in and say they were there, and.

Speaker 2 (01:04:54):
They were all wearing ribbons and supported Jesse.

Speaker 3 (01:04:56):
Right yeah, I mean but again, so you can decide,
you got to decide who you're gonna believe in who
you're not.

Speaker 1 (01:05:04):
And that's why again I go back to the evidence.

Speaker 2 (01:05:07):
Okay, so now what about uh Damien and and uh
Jason they had in Wild Boys?

Speaker 1 (01:05:15):
No, they didn't.

Speaker 3 (01:05:16):
And and that's also a common if you study And
I'm not trying to to sway the discussion this way,
but it's just these are these are facts if you,
if you investigate wrongful convictions, you would be shocked. I
don't know, maybe you've done this before. How many innocent people?
Oh no, I had no idea where they were at.

Speaker 1 (01:05:37):
Oh, you know, and when you you get called and
when you get get the fire put to you. The
most common thing I see it all.

Speaker 3 (01:05:43):
I investigate these cases and we cant hunt literally hundreds
of cases a month that I have to screen through
to see if they're a case we're going to take.
And I see it all the time. You know, they
they start and that's what gets a lot of people.
Edward as our season two case, they started calling his
alibi into question. He didn't quite remember, so he made
something up.

Speaker 1 (01:06:01):
That's why.

Speaker 3 (01:06:01):
What's why you really should you know, have an attorney
and they'll tell you stop talking because all talking is
going to do is make this worse for you, no
matter what. But no, they didn't. But you know, Damien
didn't remain. I think he gave some stories about he
thought he was on the phone with somebody. You know,
remember too, you're talking, you know, what were you doing
last Wednesday at this particular time. Now it's easier for

(01:06:23):
us now everything's digital, it's online, there's social media, emails, text,
phone calls to remember that stuff. But back then, I
think I was making these calls. Maybe he was, Maybe
he wasn't. The people they talked to said no, they
remember talking to him, but it was different times of
the day. But I mean, if you ever have you
ever read into the Sanders Girls. The Sanders sisters now
refresh my memory. There there are a couple of people

(01:06:45):
that wrote appid David saying the night of the murder
they were with Damian. Damien didn't remember that, but I don't.
I don't even know that he's ever been questioned about it,
but that they wrote statements saying that Damien was over
at one of the girls house with their family, and
the other girl was across the street, and both said
that night they saw Damien over there that night at

(01:07:07):
their house, nowhere near the crime scene.

Speaker 2 (01:07:08):
Okay, now you were able to interview Jesse. How did
you were able to arrange that?

Speaker 3 (01:07:14):
I did not interview Jesse. Jesse doesn't do interviews. I
went to Jesse's house and met him and let him know,
as I did when I first started looking to this case.
You know, I kind of wanted to feel people out
and see, you know, has this been overdone? You know,
because again, our mission has always been to help people
that don't have any help, And in this case, who
I'm talking about is Christopher, Michael and Stevie because nobody,

(01:07:37):
nobody's ever really cared what happened up to them.

Speaker 1 (01:07:41):
But I wanted to.

Speaker 3 (01:07:42):
Check with the three and see what do you think,
because one thing I'm gauging is what we call post
offense behavior. So I go talk to him, and I
met him and he came out super duper friendly guy
to me anyway. Told him was like, hey, you know,
I know you don't do interviews, and he's like, no, no,
I don't do any of that. And I said, but
I wanted to let you know we're reopening the investing.
We're gonna try to do crowdsourcing. You know, it's probably

(01:08:03):
gonna stirt some stuff up, but it's our intention to
anything that's never been tested forensically. We're gonna have a
tested We're going to search for new witnesses and see
what we can find out. And he shook my head
and said and said thanks, I appreciate it, and in
good luck. And then it was, you know, five minutes
of him asking how Jesse and our Jason and Damien
are doing. Because I asked for his phone number and

(01:08:25):
he said, I think his exact quote was was, man,
I don't mess around with a phone or nothing. He
doesn't even have a phone. But so that was that
was my interaction with Jesse so.

Speaker 1 (01:08:34):
He didn't confess, right, No, he did not confess in
that instance.

Speaker 2 (01:08:38):
It is interesting and when I when I met, I
said interview, I didn't meant a radio interview. I meant
like or a podcast interviewment, like an investigation interview. And
so you didn't get a really chance to answering me.
But you're knocked on his door, cold call, just cold.

Speaker 1 (01:08:48):
Knock yep, just showed up at his house.

Speaker 2 (01:08:50):
Okay, all right, Uh, you know one thing, you.

Speaker 3 (01:08:55):
Know, the original question he ask is why I thought
that they were innocent? Another besides, once we move on
past the forensic evidence, it's another thing I look to
is is post defense behavior. So how are these people
acting after the conviction and even now, especially now? And
so the first person that I was able to make
contact with is Jason Baldwin. I tell Jason Baldwin, you know,
we're going to put all the resources into this. We've

(01:09:16):
had a lot of success in the past finding new information.
We're going to try to solve this thing once and forever,
for once and for all. And I'm not a West
Memphis three supporter, never have been. That's not my thing.
I'm just all about trying to find the truth, and
Jason was like, thank god, you know somebody likes you know,
once we got out, most people just let this thing go,
go for it. Whatever you need, let me know. And

(01:09:38):
one thing I noticed is he didn't try to direct
us in any particular direction. He didn't throw a theory
at me. He didn't, you know, try to sway the
investigation at all. He just said yeah, And I asked
him what's been tested? What hasn't and he said, man,
Damien's defense team tested tons of stuff. Most of that
the general public doesn't even know about it out. But

(01:10:02):
you know, I don't know what ell there. You're gonna
have to get a whole Damien for that. But if
there's anything that hasn't been if you guys have the
funding to test it, test it. So then I go
talk to Damien, same thing, you know, not direct, He's
telling me, do it please, somebody saw this thing. Put
an end to this nightmare for everybody. Damien's statement, a
lot of his statements and Jason's were you know, you know,
they're glad that we're putting the focus on on the

(01:10:23):
three victims, and you know, please investigate. You know, So
that's a pretty open ended thing. For a guilty person
to say yes, please test more. And speaking of which,
you know Damien Echles, the guy that obviously you believe
is guilty. It seems like a pretty damn big risk
for him to to file motions with court and have
literally every single piece of possible DNA evidence tested. I mean,

(01:10:48):
imagine if one at this point, he's still on death row,
if one single shred of his DNA comes up on
any of that testing, he's he's gonna die.

Speaker 1 (01:10:58):
He's going to be executed.

Speaker 3 (01:10:59):
So that's a hell of a risk to take unless
you're pretty darn confident none of your I mean, did
you know that they the Damien had the fingernails scrapings tested,
The Damien had the skin tag tested that was in
the in the binding stress, the Damien had the swabs
tested from the bodies. Were you aware that he's the

(01:11:19):
one that ordered all that testing.

Speaker 2 (01:11:22):
Yeah, but that was you know, months later, and you
had to be pretty confident when you ditch the bodies
in water. But let me ask a question back to Boldwin. Now,
how did you arrange the meeting with Bolden? You went
down and saw him in person?

Speaker 3 (01:11:33):
No, actually, I'm going down to meet Jason on the
twenty seventh of this month. We just we've just spoke
on the phone a couple of times, actually several times.

Speaker 2 (01:11:41):
Okay, so talk to them on the phone we have,
and you have a plan to go down an interview
him in person, right, okay. And one more thing I
wanted it to clarify, which you know, I'm a defense investigator.
I've always like ninety percent of all my cases for
the defense. I'm very very seldom, you know, so I
don't I don't like seeing people go to prison, even
when I know they're guilty. And I've had guy's death
penalty guys, and I got their case cut down for

(01:12:02):
like eight years, you know, you know, you know, And
in the beginning I thought these guys didn't do it either,
in the very beginning.

Speaker 1 (01:12:11):
HM.

Speaker 2 (01:12:11):
So now back to miss Kelly, though, what about the
subsequent confessions in the police car with the Bible all
that stuff. Why would he do that?

Speaker 1 (01:12:24):
Your guess is as good, is as good as mine.
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:12:27):
I mean, the again, he's you know, he's got some
details wrong. Although by the time those those confessions came around,
you know, he actually knew what the crime scene looked
like by that point, because he'd set through the trials,
so he got a little better. The only thing I
can I can think of, even even if he's let's
just say he's guilty, why do that.

Speaker 2 (01:12:47):
Right, Because because he has a conscience.

Speaker 3 (01:12:53):
So he reiterates a confession that that he already gave.
You know, I think a more likely motivation is that
someone told him that maybe you can get a better deal,
maybe we can help you if you give us more information.

Speaker 2 (01:13:08):
Yeah, but there was confessions with his lawyer right there.
Obviously his lawyers were telling him the exact opposite.

Speaker 3 (01:13:13):
Sure, but we don't know what the police officers were
telling them in the car or anything else.

Speaker 1 (01:13:16):
And I'm not saying that happen. I'm just saying because
to be honest with you, I'm just as bad.

Speaker 3 (01:13:20):
Like, even if he's a guilty person, I'm still baffled
by it.

Speaker 1 (01:13:25):
But they're still baffled by the whole thing.

Speaker 2 (01:13:27):
If he's making all these confessions, why wouldn't you just
take it at face value and say, well, here's the
guy he's confessed.

Speaker 3 (01:13:32):
Well, because when we do a statement analysis, what we're
taught to do is investigators, when we do a statement analysis,
from anybody who gives a statement or confesses is look
at where did the information they gave us come from?
Did it come from me or did it come from them?
And then also does it fit the forensics of the
crime scene? Are they getting the details right? It's all
about the details. And when someone gives a long, detailed

(01:13:53):
confession multiple times, as Jesse ms Kelly has, but the
details are all wrong, that that tells me that it's
likely a false confession. I mean, I don't know if
you're aware of this, but deal that that of the
hundreds of people who've been exonerated through DNA evidence absolutely
did not do it exonerated. Do you know that twenty
five percent of them had confessed twenty five percent? So

(01:14:16):
to say, you know, to act like a false confession
doesn't happen, it's.

Speaker 2 (01:14:19):
Just no, no, no, I'm not saying false confessions don't happen.
I don't. I can't think of another case where there
were ten false confessions.

Speaker 1 (01:14:26):
Well, there weren't ten, there were were, there were supposedly six.

Speaker 2 (01:14:28):
I think, well, well, we were just talking to somebody
Gary Me the other day and we had a list.
It was like seven or eight on the list just
off the top of our heads. We came up with,
you know, and there was something to I don't know
if you know about the whole situation with true Romance
seventy nine on the West Memphis three. Like it was
his pal, you know, the pen pals going. But she
was don'ating a ton of money. Supposedly he confessed to
her too as well, even later when it was when

(01:14:49):
he was in jail, when he was in prison anyway,
Now what about hell, okay, so the confession, So you
want to dismiss the confessions with the Bible? Do you
want with the lawyer there? All those you just wanted dismissed.

Speaker 3 (01:15:00):
I'm not no, I'm not dismissing anything. I mean, that's
that's one of the things that is required of a
good investigator is to consider everything. But you can't focus
in on one thing. You have to take the preponderance
of all of the evidence. And and so we have
the confessions, those are you know, that's information that we
need to know and we need to consider. We also
need to consider the fact that false confessions do happen.

(01:15:21):
We need to consider his IQ and the situation, the
circumstances where he confessed and the fact that when you
do a statement analysis that he got all the details wrong.

Speaker 1 (01:15:29):
So we haven't I haven't dismissed it. It's there, it's
being considered.

Speaker 3 (01:15:32):
But then, like I said, then you go to the
forensics of the crime scene and again the post offense
behavior like you said, that was just later. Yeah, whatever
with Damien Echols, that's that's not to be I mean,
you want to dismiss the fact that he asked for
while he's awaiting execution, to test the DNA of every
single scrap, every hair, everything found on the crime scene.

Speaker 1 (01:15:51):
That's that's insane for a guilty person to do, you know.
You know, I've had cases where we've worked where we've
done DNA testing and we've gone through all the evidence, like.

Speaker 3 (01:15:59):
We want test. So we don't want to test that
because his DNA might be on that. You know, he
used that tool at that point, So we don't want
to take a risk there for them to say test
at all.

Speaker 1 (01:16:09):
You know, it's compared to you know, I've made contact
with with with Terry Hobbs, you know the Fred Wallsha
you've had on the on the show, which by the way,
Fred and I disagree about a lot of things. Love
Fred to death.

Speaker 3 (01:16:20):
Fred's on our fan page and some other places, and
we've had Fred is very good at having a civil
back and forth discussion.

Speaker 1 (01:16:25):
Uh. But but Fred is one of the guys. Excuse me.

Speaker 3 (01:16:31):
I really lost my train of thought when I started
talking about Fred and how wonderful he is. But you
know we're talking about Oh he talks a lot about
Damien Nechles. How you know, he's the one that claimed
that he has a PR firm and they control the
questions you can ask him and everything. And like I said,
that's that's not the case at all.

Speaker 1 (01:16:51):
It's just not true.

Speaker 2 (01:16:52):
And I dealt with other authors. I've dealt with authors
who told me the same story.

Speaker 1 (01:16:56):
Yeah, that's I say.

Speaker 3 (01:16:57):
It may have been true at one time, but that's
it has not been my experience. But he so then
let's look at and by the way, I want to
point out, I'm not saying Terry Hobbs is a suspect,
but it's a point of discussion.

Speaker 1 (01:17:08):
There's been a lot that happened a lot here. You know.

Speaker 3 (01:17:11):
I've asked Terry Hobbs to have a conversation in an
interview with me and absolutely refuses, won't speak to me,
but he's.

Speaker 1 (01:17:18):
More than happy to come on and talk to you.
Why do you think that is? How many hard questions?
You know? Fred Fred Talk gave me a real hard
time without even hearing the interview, telling me that you
know I can tell because you're sitting there with your
shoes off in his apartment in a picture that was
posted that you didn't ask him any.

Speaker 3 (01:17:33):
Hard questions like, well, how many hard questions got asked
Terry Hobbs. You guys called him in there, told him
how Innescity wasn't how terrible it was to him, and
never asked him a hard question whatsoever. But why is
Terry Hobbs not willing to talk to me? But they'll talk,
they'll talk to you. And then when I did speak
with Terry Hobbs, So in contrast, when we're talking post
defense behavior, I talked to Damien Echles, Jesse Miss Kelly,

(01:17:54):
Jason Baldwin. I tell them I'm reinvestigating this case. I'm
starting from ground zero, and we we're testing everything, looking
for new witnesses. We're gonna do everything we do to
solve the case. Great, thanks godspeed.

Speaker 1 (01:18:04):
I tell Terry Hobbs the same thing Terry Hobbs tells
me to I can't quote him directly and I have
in front of me, but basically told me to leave
it alone. The case was solved twenty four years ago.
Doesn't want me to look into it.

Speaker 2 (01:18:16):
Well, okay, but you don't think that the way Terry
Hobbs has been treated that he doesn't ever right to
say that. At this point, he's been cleared.

Speaker 3 (01:18:22):
He's got a right to say whatever he wants.

Speaker 1 (01:18:26):
He can say whatever he wants. He's been cleared. But
he's been cleared with more forensic evidence against him than
there ever was against the three. And you can't deny that.
That's a fact.

Speaker 2 (01:18:35):
Now it's the same, just it's roughly. But besides the confessions.

Speaker 3 (01:18:40):
I'm talking about, I'm talking about actual direct evidence evidence.

Speaker 2 (01:18:44):
Okay, but beside right, you're right, besides the multiple confessions
by all three by the way, but besides the failed polygraphs, right,
besides all that. Listen, I'm not gonna butcher Terry Hobbs
on here. He's been through it off over the years.

Speaker 1 (01:18:56):
He lost his ste I don't want to be either.
That's not my intention.

Speaker 3 (01:19:00):
My point is just drawing a contrast between between the two,
the way the two are treated. You know, I've been
told that, you know that people are assuming that I'm
going to go a certain way.

Speaker 1 (01:19:11):
I'm being fair to everyone as opposed to, you know,
the way that we're going to microscopically look at the
evidence against the three. But Terry Hobbs gets a pass.

Speaker 2 (01:19:20):
I mean no, I can totally not blame Terry Hobbs
the way he's been lying about stalked, what this guy's
been through. Okay, I totally don't blame him for not
wanting to cooperate with anybody else busting his balls at
this point now, But let me ask a couple of questions.
What about all the polygraphs? We would have to think
that every single polygraph given in this case was opposite,

(01:19:46):
you know what I mean, Like everyone who failed the
polygraph really passed, but everyone who passed the polygraph was
really lying. That's what we would have to believe. Right.

Speaker 3 (01:19:53):
Well, if we're talking about the reliability of polygraphs, let's
if we take everyone who is question about this case
and failed a polygraph and said that that was that
was accurate. You tell me how many people murdered those
three boys?

Speaker 1 (01:20:10):
How many people failed polygraphs when they were asked if
they killed the boys?

Speaker 2 (01:20:14):
Well, people failed, not if they if they killed the boys,
but did they know what happened?

Speaker 1 (01:20:20):
Now? Have you?

Speaker 3 (01:20:21):
Have you read the polygraphs of for example, Chris Morgan?

Speaker 2 (01:20:25):
And yeah, they failed because they said do you know
what happened? And obviously there was a lot of talking
going on. It was a bunch of kids talking about
a lot of stuff. Uh, I'm familiar with that. Uh
what about uh eccles admissions, it's called the softball girls?
What about?

Speaker 4 (01:20:44):
Uh?

Speaker 2 (01:20:45):
Have you looked into that whole thing, like read all
the police reports on that and then seeing eccles uh
statements about what he believes went on.

Speaker 3 (01:20:53):
Yeah, And and admittedly I'm not I'm not real well
versus because, like I said, we haven't gotten that far
into the story. But I've seen that some girls at
softball games, I said, they overheard him saying it. Interestingly,
they can't tell you one word that he said before
or after it, but they're certain that he said that.
And I think at some point Damien even said yeah,
either he said he did, or maybe he did say
that after he'd been being questioned the whole by all

(01:21:16):
by the police.

Speaker 1 (01:21:18):
So I don't know if he said it or not.

Speaker 2 (01:21:19):
Well, well, at first he said that he never said it.
They made it up because they want attention. Then years
later he said, yeah, I said it. It was a joke.
But the thing is, if you go back and read
all those police reports, this wasn't just three girls who
over the whole everyone there at that softball game. They
were changed, they were moving their seats away. There was

(01:21:40):
like twenty kids who were running to their parents telling them.
This was a whole scene. This wasn't a minor thing
where these little girls overheard a story. There's a whole
scene that went on there that night, you know what
I mean. There's a lot more to those softball girls
than what you see on this documentary, And which is
so in court where they only brought in three witnesses.
A questions, if you go back and look at those

(01:22:01):
police reports, there was a whole scene there that day.

Speaker 1 (01:22:05):
Yeah, I don't doubt it.

Speaker 3 (01:22:06):
And like I said, I can't speak real intelligently about
it because I haven't dug too deeply into it. But
let's let's say worst case scenario for for Damien. He
did say it. Then, then his response to it is.
He's he's joking about it, and he's he's what an
eighteen year old kid that's by that point had already
been questioned by the police for for quite a while

(01:22:28):
about about the murders. People are saying that they thought
he murdered it, murdered them, and he says he's joking.
Maybe so maybe he said it, maybe he didn't, Maybe
it was a joke, maybe he was serious. Maybe maybe
it's an actual confession. I mean, that's it's gonna it's
all up for interpretation.

Speaker 2 (01:22:44):
Oh yeah, by the way, too, back to miss Kelley,
he made a confession to a cellmate in prison too.
What do you make of that?

Speaker 3 (01:22:52):
It's it's going to be the same answer I had
to the to the rest of them. If I don't
believe anybody, and I'm not saying didn't happen, but a
cellmate says that he confessed, that's you know there.

Speaker 1 (01:23:04):
You know, there's a lot of states.

Speaker 3 (01:23:06):
I know, particularly Texas included is one that is banning
jail house confessions because they're they're so ripe for corruption,
for inmates looking for better deals by by giving confessions.

Speaker 1 (01:23:17):
But then again with Jesse ms Kelly, he very well
might have said it.

Speaker 2 (01:23:20):
Yeah, because in this instance, the guy wasn't looking for
a deal. He wrote a letter to d saying, make
sure you work hard on this case because this guy
is an evil guy. You know you never want him
out of prison. M have you read that letter?

Speaker 1 (01:23:32):
May have happened.

Speaker 2 (01:23:34):
Let me ask a question, because you know you're saying that, Okay,
you don't believe any of these multiple confessions the aga.
I'm sorry that what are you saying.

Speaker 3 (01:23:45):
I'm simply saying that they have to be considered, but
it also has to be considered that we have to
look at the reliability of the source. And and what
I what I have examined is the actual recorded where
I've heard Jesse in his own words give.

Speaker 1 (01:23:58):
His confessions, and I've got and I've got.

Speaker 3 (01:23:59):
Somescerns about those because of the incorrect details about the
crime scene.

Speaker 2 (01:24:05):
So then if Chesse were to confess to you directly,
you would still question it because it didn't match the
crime scene absolutely.

Speaker 3 (01:24:11):
And we're trained and I would assume, I mean, I
don't know what training goes into be a private investigator,
but as as a quasi law enforcement official myself and
being trained to yeah, you're absolutely anytime that you finish
an interview, especially if you get a confession, we do
what's called a statement analysis and we go back and again,
like I said, where did the information? Did I give

(01:24:31):
them that information or did they give me that information?
Are the details correct?

Speaker 1 (01:24:35):
You know? And now if Jesse gave me a confession.

Speaker 3 (01:24:37):
And he had boom boom, boom boom, here's all the
facts of the case, that'd be pretty damning. But you know,
little things like what's the utility in saying that the
Damien was raping one of the boys when the medical
examiners say that didn't happen. What's the utility there? Well,
he's not trying to distance himself there, right.

Speaker 2 (01:24:55):
Well well no, wait, but did he did he say
specifically that he was anally raping the boy or orly
raping the boy?

Speaker 3 (01:25:02):
I believe his exact words were, Damiens started screwing him.

Speaker 2 (01:25:05):
Yeah, it could be there.

Speaker 1 (01:25:07):
Well, there's no evidence of either.

Speaker 2 (01:25:11):
Well, if it was orally, there would be no evidence,
and there aren't a I think there's a bruises to
the ears on one of the kids.

Speaker 1 (01:25:18):
Right, Yeah, they were beat over the head with something.

Speaker 2 (01:25:24):
What about Baldwin's jailhouse admissions.

Speaker 1 (01:25:28):
It's gonna be again, it's gonna be the same thing.
Maybe he did, maybe he didn't.

Speaker 3 (01:25:32):
Now, now with Baldwin, are you talking about the guy
who later recanted and said the whole thing was a lie. Yeah,
well there's your answer.

Speaker 2 (01:25:39):
Well, but he recanted and said it was a lie.
If there was a big giant billboard in town with
a dollar sign on it saying witnesses come.

Speaker 1 (01:25:45):
Forward, did he get paid anything there was.

Speaker 2 (01:25:47):
A sign with dollar signs on it that that's not
what I asked. I don't know if he got paid.

Speaker 3 (01:25:53):
And also, so this guy goes on on national television crying,
how do you think it made him look to say
that I just got up there and complete a lot
on the stand.

Speaker 1 (01:26:01):
And also are you aware.

Speaker 3 (01:26:03):
Of the fact that the was it a doctor that
was working with him or a counselor that wrote a
letter to the prosecutor and said, this guy is full
of it. Don't believe a word he says he's lying
to try to I don't rember, what is his purpose
was for it that the prosecutors knew that before they
put him on the stand.

Speaker 1 (01:26:18):
You were aware that I'm.

Speaker 2 (01:26:19):
Aware of that, and I think it was an LSD
addict took a lot of LSD or something.

Speaker 3 (01:26:22):
Yeah, yeah, And then later he says, I completely made
up the whole thing. So, I mean, I guess you
can argue it, but that's you're going to pick and choose.
I guess either one of us has to pick and
choose which time we're believing him.

Speaker 2 (01:26:34):
Right. Well, but and then when you look at the
cumulative effect of all these confessions, you know you just
got to But but now the thing is to know
what about prior to the murders. Prior to these murders,
even at Curry, there's statements from Eccos saying that he
was going to have a baby and sacrifice that baby.

Speaker 3 (01:26:56):
Now, I know you probably you've talked about Exhibit five hundred,
probably know better than this. So because I heard it
on one maybe with me, So I think there's somebody
had on there that.

Speaker 1 (01:27:09):
Let me shoot, what is this? Uh? Is Deanna hulkm
his girlfriend? That's right? Let me ask you this. Where
did that information come from?

Speaker 2 (01:27:22):
Well, I assume originally from Damon's mouth.

Speaker 3 (01:27:25):
Well, so in the actual exhibit, when you read it,
you see that Jerry Driver told the doctors that Damien
had this pact. They asked Damien and he said absolutely not,
over and over again, denies satanic involvement and that no,
he would never do that, and he denies it. So

(01:27:46):
then they asked Deanna Hulcomb, and Deanna Holcomb then says,
and this is after Damien's already been arrested. She says,
apparently I found out that he wanted to sacrifice our
child and the story has turned into they had a
pact and they were going to do it, and Deanna
Holcom confirms it.

Speaker 1 (01:28:04):
Deanna Hult. The source of the information to Deanna Holcomb
was again Jerry Driver. Jerry Driver told the told the
doctors that Damien Eckles said that Damian denies it, and
then Jerry Driver told Deanna Holcomb that he said that,
and she says that he told me. They said that
Deanna Holcomb was never aware of that if it was said, so,

(01:28:24):
where did Jerry Driver get that information? If it didn't
come from Damien or Deanna.

Speaker 2 (01:28:28):
Have you interviewed Jerry Driver?

Speaker 1 (01:28:30):
I haven't, but I would love to want to.

Speaker 3 (01:28:32):
I want to talk to him about how every full
moon he drove around trying to stop sacrifices.

Speaker 2 (01:28:38):
So have you tried to interview No, I haven't gotten
that far yet. Okay, But you suspect that he would
have a motivation to lie and put a kid in
an institution for no reason.

Speaker 3 (01:28:48):
Well, I don't know what his motivation was. But if
you read the report and you read it objectively, look
at the source of most of what's in Damien Ekele's
file and Exhibit five hundred, source of almost all of
it is Jerry Driver, and some of it we add
down right, No, he lied, you know where. He said
that when he was arrested, when he was in the
trailer with his girlfriend, that he threatened police and did

(01:29:11):
all this, and he tells the doctors that, and so
that's in his permanent record. But when you read the
actual police report, none of that's true. None of that happened.
It all came from Jerry Driver, and the source of
the most of the most damning information in Exhibit five hundred,
the source almost always is Jerry Driver with nothing behind
it to substantiate it. And in many times you have

(01:29:33):
actual police reports that contradict exactly what he said.

Speaker 2 (01:29:36):
Well, with the exception of Damien's parents who had him
committed because they were afraid of them.

Speaker 3 (01:29:42):
Well, did you read that again, information from Jerry Driver?
But then did you read the statement from Damien's dad.

Speaker 2 (01:29:49):
Yeah, I've read that. It was a long time ago.
Sure what refresh me.

Speaker 1 (01:29:52):
Damien's dad says, know that it wasn't true.

Speaker 3 (01:29:54):
He didn't have a knife, he had a spoon, and
he was threatening suicide.

Speaker 1 (01:29:58):
He didn't threaten us at all. Driver told the doctors
that he had threatened to kill his dad.

Speaker 2 (01:30:05):
And so later on when the dad trying to get
him out.

Speaker 3 (01:30:07):
At at some point though, Damien, at some point, I think
if I remember correctly in that document as a long document,
you know that it's hundreds of pages, I think he
had said that he had threatened his mother at one point.
But Damien's dad says that what Jerry Driver told the
police is not true.

Speaker 2 (01:30:25):
So after Damien's committed and they're trying to get him out,
they was ammitted either.

Speaker 3 (01:30:30):
Well, well, I shouldn't say that it's been said wildly
that he was detained in an institution when it was
actually a hospital, that he was there for two days
voluntarily when he was in or not by his parents
when he was in Oregon.

Speaker 2 (01:30:45):
So all the stuff about Damien thinking, you know, he's
hearing voices and stuff like that, you just overlook that,
and that's fine.

Speaker 3 (01:30:52):
I don't know where to look at all of it.
All of it is. All of this is again you
have to take the ponorance of all of that. You
can't take any little piece of it. So I think
I think Damien was a disturbed kid. He was certainly suicidal,
he was certainly depressed. He was he was into the
What amazes me is the constant claim that he was
a Satanist when he's I've never ever met a Satanist.

Speaker 1 (01:31:15):
That and others before the murders, never.

Speaker 3 (01:31:18):
Met a Satanist that constantly denies being a Satanist, but
says I'm into magic and Wicca and all this other stuff,
all the stuff that's equally strange to people, but continually
denies being a Satanist. But people say that he's Satanists.
But let's say worst case scenario. Worst case scenario for
Damien Echoles is based on all this. Everything is true

(01:31:38):
in that report.

Speaker 1 (01:31:39):
He's a liar, and he's a Satanist and.

Speaker 3 (01:31:44):
Whatever else you want to say, has violent tendencies. All
of that is true, the blood off that time for
the crime.

Speaker 2 (01:31:50):
Scene, he's licking the blood off another guy too. Well,
and he's admitted.

Speaker 1 (01:31:57):
But now let's say he's a vampire. How does that
make guilty of this crime?

Speaker 2 (01:32:02):
Well, because people in that.

Speaker 1 (01:32:03):
Neighborhood were also mentally disturbed sex offenders into satanic cult
I just went through the door to door notes. Do
you know how many different.

Speaker 3 (01:32:11):
Tips there were of other people that were saying they
were into satanic cults in that neighborhood.

Speaker 2 (01:32:14):
Oh no, yeah, I believe it's a hot bit. Yeah. Now,
but now why would he And just more even recently,
we just got a hold of his uh all the
books in his locker, which is full of occult material
and stuff. Why would he lie about his occult beliefs
and his fascination with Crowley, crowd, his his memorization of

(01:32:36):
everything involved with Crowley and and Crowley advocated the sacrifice
of eight year old boys.

Speaker 1 (01:32:43):
Well, did Crowley say that? Or is that quote veiled language?

Speaker 2 (01:32:49):
You can look it up. Have you looked it up?

Speaker 1 (01:32:51):
No?

Speaker 3 (01:32:51):
I've read a little bit about it, and what I
find is that he's that a lot of the claims
about him are are are written in veiled language, and
you have to interpret what he's said.

Speaker 2 (01:33:00):
I don't know the ideal sacrifice would be in the
ideal sacrifice would be an eight year old boy, That's
what he says.

Speaker 1 (01:33:08):
Now, So now the I guess that's a pretty good
reason to why about it?

Speaker 2 (01:33:11):
Okay, right, okay, So yeah, that's your question.

Speaker 3 (01:33:14):
He's on the stand being tried for capital murder. Then
they're claiming it was an occult related murder, right, and then, yeah,
I guess that'd be pretty damn good reason to why.

Speaker 2 (01:33:24):
And then even after he's in prison and he says, well,
now I'm a Buddhist, I'm no longer a wicked But
we find out later on that he was a member
of the Crowley Group there in prison, and he donated
so many books to this Crowley group there that they
named the library after him. So his occult beliefs in
black magic and all this stuff hasn't diminished over these

(01:33:47):
past thirty years, and in fact it's increased. If you
see him today, well.

Speaker 3 (01:33:51):
I think a lot of that depends on your view
of what is religion. By calling it an occult, and
a lot of people even call what he does now
as satan is obvious.

Speaker 1 (01:34:00):
I told you I'm a Christian.

Speaker 3 (01:34:01):
I don't believe the same as he does, but I
did have him give me a detailed explanation of his faith.
And it's I mean, in my in my opinion, people
can believe whatever they want. It doesn't make a murderer.
It it just does not.

Speaker 1 (01:34:16):
And and but it Wottom line is, let's let's say
Damien Echols, we can prove that he was in a
Satanic cult. What evidence is there on that crime scene
that it was a Satanic cult ritual killing? What are
the pentagrams where Satanic cult ritual killings are made big
displays of and there's the whole purpose behind them. Where's
the evidence that that happened.

Speaker 2 (01:34:37):
It's not necessary that they would have to be an
altar and a pentagram and all that kind of stuff.
But it may not prove Okay, him being involved with
his obsession with Crowley and his obsession with blood and
the occult may not prove that he's a murderer, but
it does prove one that he's a liar, right sure, Okay, I.

Speaker 3 (01:34:57):
Mean I mean if if that's if that's accurate, then yeah, okay,
I mean I personally don't believe he's a Satanist.

Speaker 1 (01:35:03):
I don't at all.

Speaker 2 (01:35:05):
Well let's not get let's let's not get caught up
in Satan and the cult. But but he believes in
a black magic that involves human sacrifice, child sacrifice. Because
he's he's you can't be more obsessed with Crowley than
than he is. And like I said, just recently, we
got a storage locker where he's got a Bible in there.

(01:35:25):
The only data that's underlined in that Bible is stuff
that's regarding the Devil and Satan and nothing else. That's
his only interest.

Speaker 3 (01:35:36):
Where who's I'm unfamiliar, who's we? Who just got the
storage locker?

Speaker 1 (01:35:42):
Oh?

Speaker 2 (01:35:42):
One of these storage guys who buys these lockers. He's
stumbled on his locker I got, I got a video.
But it's a great story. We found this guy. He
bought Damon Echles storage locker. And you can talk to him,
pitch and touch with him because he's well. In fact,
he's got a thumb drive with all of four thousand
occult books signed by Anne Rice and bizarre and even

(01:36:04):
with the other one. Marl Leverett gave him an advanced
copy of her book Devil's not before she published it,
like all these supporters and stuff like that. And also
to get this, there's writing in there in his own
handwriting where he says I am the devil, not a devil,
the devil. And then his writing in there too in
his own handwriting when he talks about he wants to

(01:36:26):
take this woman and put her in bondage and give
her an enema bondage. What do we have there at
the crime scene. We have bondage, right right man? Okay?
So when why would he lie about? It's in cult devolvement?
And when we have statements in front of the softball girls, Yeah,
I killed him. I got three more picked out. We

(01:36:47):
got statements through Jerry Driver, okay, which was a law
enforcement officer. Does he have any other complaints?

Speaker 1 (01:36:52):
Was he was?

Speaker 2 (01:36:53):
He kicked off the force?

Speaker 1 (01:36:54):
Was Jerry Driver?

Speaker 3 (01:36:55):
And Steve Jones by the way, two of them? And
have you ever studied Steve Jones?

Speaker 2 (01:36:59):
Well, yeah, sure, it's twenty years ago, okay.

Speaker 1 (01:37:02):
And do you know why Steve Jones is no longer
law enforcement officer or why he stopped? No, look look
into it.

Speaker 3 (01:37:08):
When you're talking about no other complaints, I'm not gonna
get into it. Here, But I think you'd be surprised
and what Steve Jones was up to.

Speaker 2 (01:37:15):
So will you take into that consideration Damien's fascination with
bondage and also Laurie too, we have photographs of her
in bondage. Okay, would you take that into consideration your evaluation?

Speaker 1 (01:37:29):
Okay, all right, I'm I still need someone to explain
to me how that crime scene was indicative in any way,
shape or form of a ritual killing. In what Satanic
ritual do they hit somebody over the head and drown them?

Speaker 2 (01:37:47):
Oh no, no, no, you got to look that up.
There is a lot of stuff about murders in water
that are occultish, and let's get hung up on satan
and stuff like that because I'm not an expert on it.
I'm not an expert on that stuff either, Okay, but
I have think of it.

Speaker 1 (01:38:02):
Yeah, well I'll tell you. I'll tell you this.

Speaker 3 (01:38:04):
You know, I know, we've got maybe twenty minutes left here. Uh,
conversations from people that believe they're guilty. They always want
to focus on the occultism and all these different things,
all this stuff that.

Speaker 1 (01:38:13):
But but what people who believe that the three.

Speaker 3 (01:38:17):
Are guilty never want to do is to evaluate the
actual evidence, you know, and we want to say, you know,
I don't want to I don't want to bash Terry Hobbs.

Speaker 1 (01:38:23):
Okay, that's fine.

Speaker 3 (01:38:24):
We're so you're going to ignore the fact that he
gave a statement alibying himself with one of his friends,
David Jacoby, and then David Jacoby comes in and says,
that's all lie, it didn't happen. You want to ignore
the fact that that a hair that that was within
one point nine percent.

Speaker 2 (01:38:42):
I appreciate it, and I appreciate it if you didn't,
you know, point at me and say, I want to
ignore this, and I want to ignore that. I really don't.
I've looked at this over and over for years and
years and years. I've gotten to know these people. I've
gotten to know. I was originally a supporter, and I
got in touch with Burke and uh and all these
people and said, hey, I'll get you on I'll get
you on our both show. I thought, until I got
to know these people, you know, sure you know what

(01:39:04):
I mean?

Speaker 1 (01:39:05):
Answer me this. We're talking about background.

Speaker 3 (01:39:07):
Yeah, Terry Hobbs does he does he have a background
of losing his temper and getting violent with people.

Speaker 2 (01:39:15):
Terry Hobbs has been cleared by the police. Pam Hobbs
is cleared to Terry Hobbs.

Speaker 1 (01:39:20):
See, you don't want to answer the questions about it.

Speaker 2 (01:39:23):
You're right, what do you want to talk? Let's let's
focus on Pam Hicks. Does she have a history with
the police, eluding the police with her car? You know,
let's let's attack all these people.

Speaker 3 (01:39:32):
And I'm not disparishing anybody. Pam Hicks has an alibi.
She was at work, Okay, all right, right, yeah, I mean.

Speaker 1 (01:39:40):
You can't act like it's ridiculous to consider.

Speaker 2 (01:39:43):
No, no, no, it's been considered. Spect it's been considered. He's
been questioned. He's never confessed, he's been questioned, he's been cleared.

Speaker 1 (01:39:51):
He was questioned. The question was so so we can't
discuss any of.

Speaker 2 (01:39:57):
We can discuss it.

Speaker 1 (01:39:58):
I mean, how do you explain?

Speaker 2 (01:39:59):
But why focused on him?

Speaker 3 (01:40:01):
Well, because I'm trying to find out who actually did this,
and I'm still not seeing any forensic evidence, any of
the direct evidence that indicates that the three that were
convicted did it.

Speaker 1 (01:40:10):
Now I'm not saying that's not a possibility. If I
find new evidence that suggests that I will, but there
is evidence and there's more stuff that we've found that
hasn't been released yet than I can't talk about you,
and I think you're going to be shocked.

Speaker 2 (01:40:20):
I would love to, but let me ask a question
that to you. You say that to everyone who claims they're
guilty wants to focus on any cult, that's not true.
I'm the one who's bringing back up ther cult, me
and me and William.

Speaker 1 (01:40:31):
Well, that's just been my experience with people that want.

Speaker 2 (01:40:34):
To that's all recent. If you go back when Sean
Wheeler was the big opposition guy, he would he poo
pooed all that stuff everyone did until just recently we've
brought it back up. Have you ever spoken to an
occult expert who can.

Speaker 1 (01:40:49):
No, I haven't. That is on our agenda though I
haven't found a good one yet, but that's on our agenda.

Speaker 2 (01:40:53):
Would you like to talk to Dale Griffiths?

Speaker 3 (01:40:59):
Does Dale Griffiths the is he the one that testified
at trial, the mail order PhD guy?

Speaker 2 (01:41:04):
To see you know what?

Speaker 1 (01:41:05):
You know?

Speaker 2 (01:41:06):
He's a retired professor and he was a.

Speaker 1 (01:41:09):
I didn't mean to say that. I'm just remembering in
my mind. Who is we're talking.

Speaker 2 (01:41:12):
About and listen, a lot of people have online degrees today, okay,
and at the time he did do distance learning. He's
got other.

Speaker 1 (01:41:21):
Degrees online degrees where you have to take.

Speaker 2 (01:41:24):
No, no, what you know what? And where do you
get your information about Tail Griffiths. Because I'm the last
guy to ever interview him, I got two hours, I.

Speaker 3 (01:41:30):
Don't know, And I didn't mean to say that negatively.
I'm just saying I read the transcripts.

Speaker 2 (01:41:34):
Right, and he was qualified. He was qualified as an
expert in this case.

Speaker 1 (01:41:38):
Sure, judge is discretion and he may be an expert
in it. Of course, I'm not saying I mean, I'm
more than.

Speaker 3 (01:41:45):
Happy to talk to him. I didn't mean to say
that negatively. I was just thinking I was trying to
figure out the name who the name was that he was,
that that doctor Dale. You can be an expert without
being I'm not saying anybody had. You know, I've worked
as an expert witness for years, you know, and I
haven't associate's degree in fire science, right, you know. So
it's it's you don't have to be a pH d
to be an expert.

Speaker 2 (01:42:04):
No, definitely, in that you could be like a Native
American and be an expert in focal or all kind
of stuff like and which is a lot of people
don't realize. But but if you check him out and
I got his information, I can push you in touch
on I'm the last person ever interviewed me. You should
just listen to the interviews because he clears all this
stuff up about his education and like on his background
and stuff like that. Very quantified guy.

Speaker 3 (01:42:24):
If you can put me in touch with him, I
would love to talk to him, have him on the show.
I'd love to get that's that side of it, you know,
without without you know, being under cross examination where where
everybody's kind of directing where he's going.

Speaker 2 (01:42:33):
Yeah, but what But so uh, no other occult expert
you've talked to about the facts of like this this
overall obsession with the occult and.

Speaker 3 (01:42:48):
Even like I said, I haven't, I haven't gotten that
far yet. I mean, the only expert that I've talked
about on that so far are and I have spoken
to all of them personally. But are the the FBI
agents that that works in that field and and work
those cases that all said that it had nothing to
do with a cult killing was their opinion?

Speaker 2 (01:43:07):
Okay, now, what about on your You've done six episodes on.

Speaker 1 (01:43:11):
This right, Uh, five so far. Six will come out
this week.

Speaker 2 (01:43:15):
Okay, well, what's the next one will be about? I'm
gonna start watching the show nowt you're gonna get me
a ticed to your show?

Speaker 1 (01:43:20):
Start your friends?

Speaker 2 (01:43:23):
No, no, they won't listening. But it comes out once
a week, right.

Speaker 1 (01:43:27):
Well, twice a week.

Speaker 3 (01:43:28):
We on on Sundays, we drop our main episodes, which
is which is is Me? And it's a you know,
it's a it's a monologue where I'm breaking down evidence
and playing interview clips and doing interviews and things. And then, uh,
the listeners have three days to send in any questions, comments, ideas,
which my my producer Mike then organizes and then Mike
is kind of their voice, and we do a Friday

(01:43:48):
follow up episode where Mike asked me questions from the
listeners that drop on Friday mornings. Uh, And this week
we're gonna start breaking down that is something that's not
available on Callahan. One of my listeners actually went to
the evidence room and took photos of the one hundred
and forty pages of door to door notes from the police.
And so we're gonna start breaking those down, going over
leads and sightings of the boys.

Speaker 2 (01:44:09):
Have you ever spoken to Sean Wheeler?

Speaker 1 (01:44:12):
Nope?

Speaker 2 (01:44:12):
Oh yeah, have you tried?

Speaker 1 (01:44:15):
No? No? Yeah. Like I said, I'm only we're five
weeks into this thing. We got a long way to go.

Speaker 2 (01:44:19):
Yeah, no, it was yeah, how far in advance, Like,
you're working on this and you'll report like that fresh
the stuff you worked on that week.

Speaker 3 (01:44:27):
We literally are our show, which kind of sets it
aside from a lot is this is quite literally a
real time crowdsourced investigation, meaning what I'm doing this week,
I report on this week.

Speaker 1 (01:44:39):
Now.

Speaker 3 (01:44:39):
Again, there was months of a preliminary investigation to decide
if we even wanted to take the case. But then
now we go back through and we're going detailed by detail,
piece by piece, bit by bit as we move through it.

Speaker 2 (01:44:52):
What about the three original West Memphis three Dot Org folks.
Have you been talking to them?

Speaker 1 (01:44:57):
No?

Speaker 3 (01:44:58):
No, A lot of And I know I sound a
little pissy maybe with some I try really hard to
avoid the rhetoric. You know, there's there's everybody's got their
agenda and they're talking points and and the rhetoric, whether
the people that they say they're innocent. The people say
they're guilty, and we're looking for evidence. That's what we're doing.
We're looking for evidence. Is there something that was missed?

(01:45:20):
Is there something new that's out there? So you know,
get getting involved with a lot of that stuff. Just
it's it will get there eventually. You know, people want
to talk, but right now we're really really focused on
the evidence.

Speaker 2 (01:45:33):
Okay, And what about Brent tervys o Tempe. Okay, what
is your opinion of all the debate about the bite marks.

Speaker 1 (01:45:42):
The Well?

Speaker 3 (01:45:44):
To be honest, I mean, I've read different opinions on it,
and it's it's widely.

Speaker 1 (01:45:48):
You know, Warner Spitz is doctor.

Speaker 3 (01:45:50):
Warner Spitz is another person that I've heard several people
say I had all the respect in the world from
him until this. But there's no denying that he's he's
he's a world renowned forensic pathologist. He says these are
post mortem bites. I tell you what, I don't believe.
I don't believe they're Terry Hobbs's bites. So you'll be
happy about that. You know that the video for people

(01:46:10):
have put out there and try to convince us that
that's that's Terry Hobbs bite marks.

Speaker 1 (01:46:15):
I don't believe that. I'll tell you this.

Speaker 3 (01:46:19):
People that say, you know, animal, the idea of them
being animal predation is debunked or it's stupid. I would
tell you, go to that bayou today and throw a
pig in that water and come back eighteen hours later,
and you tell me so. And what I'm saying is,
I can't say conclusively from what I know right now,
I'm not an expert if those are bite marks from turtles.

(01:46:41):
What I can absolutely conclusively tell you is that you
cannot put a piece of meat of any kind in
that water for eighteen hours and not have hundreds of
turtles all over it chewing on it. And I've got
about sixty hours of underwater GoPro video that will prove
that point.

Speaker 2 (01:47:00):
Really, okay, and you have your announced this before.

Speaker 1 (01:47:03):
No, this first time I've mentioned that.

Speaker 2 (01:47:04):
Okay, very good. I'd love to see that. I'd love
to see that.

Speaker 3 (01:47:07):
Okay, So you know that that conversation has to be
We can debate whether this particular wound is or isn't,
but someone's going to have to explain how the hell
those boys were in that water and didn't get chewed
on by turtles because it's it'll, it'll, it's creepy as
hell like matter of fact, I've got your email, I'll
I'll give you a little sneak peek at some of
the footage we have of the turtles, and it's unbelievable.

(01:47:28):
You know, we threw a We threw a whole chicken,
two of them actually, and at one point we were
trying to see if they would attack downstream. First hold
chicken in the water, and went back a few hours
later to change the GoPro and there was nothing left
of the whole chicken but bones.

Speaker 2 (01:47:42):
Maybe it's boat angles. Now, well, how do we know?
How do we know, Bob? How do we know? Though,
that's the same amount of turtles in that water today
than it was twenty years ago. How did there's a floor?

Speaker 3 (01:47:54):
Yeah, well you have to look at you know, some
of the evidence that's out there. The fact that it
called turtlefill is a pretty good indicator. If you ever
read Ryan Clark Christopher Buyer's older brothers Affi David, where
he says that he used to play over there all
the time and they used to go catch turtles in
the area was full of turtles and they would bring
them back and including big alligator snapper turtles and put

(01:48:15):
them in their pool.

Speaker 1 (01:48:16):
So that's a pretty good indication.

Speaker 3 (01:48:17):
And that was right actually at the crime scene on
the other side of the pipe where the boys' bodies
were found. So I guess that's a pretty good indicator.

Speaker 2 (01:48:25):
Now, listen, I love this kind of stuff. And before,
like you said when you were talking about the work
time card man, you know, I live for that kind
of stuff, you know, so I'm interested in everything you're doing.
And listen, if it turns out that these guys didn't
do it, I'll be the first one to apologize. Okay, but
I just can't imagine. Now we got about six or
seven minutes left, so we're starting to wind down. What

(01:48:45):
do you want to sum things up? How do you
want to sum things up for us?

Speaker 3 (01:48:49):
You know, to be honest, that's a tough question because
I'm not in uh but you know, you get into
a conversation or debate and you have to, you know,
defend your position or make your your positions. But I
guess the's some things up. What I want to point
out is that I haven't decided on anything yet. You know,
my mind's not made up. You can't be a good
investigator by boxing yourself in and having biased so meaning

(01:49:11):
my my goal, my search is for new evidence, and
we've already found some. We've got We've got quite a
bit of new witnesses and new information that's come out,
and a lot of it. Like I said, it'll probably
blow your mind when it comes out. But still there's
nothing conclusive that's happened yet. And I will be the
first to tell you that if I find evidence that
says that the West Memphis Three committed this murder, I

(01:49:36):
will I will report it and stand by it. You know,
the show is called truth and Justice, and that's all
we're looking for. And this is my main goal, is
to shift the focus off of Damien, Jesse and Jason,
not because you know, I'm not trying to, you know,
pick on them, but it's because they're not who this
is about.

Speaker 1 (01:49:52):
It was always about them, and it shouldn't.

Speaker 3 (01:49:54):
We're talking about them forgotten West Memphis Three, Michael Moore,
Christopher Buyers, and Stevie Branch and those boys deserve justice.
And if that justice means that we proved that the
three did it, so be it. But if it proves
that someone else did it, then that's going to happen too.
But I'm convinced that when we gauge, engage hundreds of
thousand the listeners from around the world in a real
time way and make all the evidence available to them,

(01:50:16):
every single document. You know, my listeners are I'm just
a mouthpiece. My listeners are a lot smarter than I am,
and they will constantly find things that I can't find.
And that's why this works so well. So you know,
we're going to keep digging and we're going to we're
going to try to find the truth.

Speaker 2 (01:50:29):
Okay, and I want to have you back. I hope
you'll come back. I hope I haven't offended you too much. Okay.
I really enjoyed the discussion, so quick question, and I
hate to hit you with this at the end, But now,
I was listening to some of your shows and the
way you like we present some kind of evidence and
it's very well produced. I love the way. It's very great.
Production quality, is great, voice, all that kind stuff excellent,
very and even the behind the scenes kind of stuff

(01:50:50):
we were talking about before, very professionally run. I like it.
But when you insert like dramatic music after presenting some evidence.
Don't you think that's how do you justify that? What
do you think that's? Don't you think.

Speaker 1 (01:51:05):
That's you know.

Speaker 3 (01:51:07):
That, you know, I don't do the music. Guy named
Shane Yoda out of Nashville does the music for the show.
Runs a cycled put them in a song dot com
and I love Shane. He is the best thing that's
ever happened to our show, aside from my producer Mike.

Speaker 1 (01:51:20):
But you know, the show has to be listenable.

Speaker 3 (01:51:23):
We try to control the tone with with the music,
and a lot of times that you know, what you
may be perceived as dramatic, but what we're trying to
do with the music is to you know, we put
breaks in between information to give the listeners a few
seconds to absorb what we just said. And sometimes, you know,
we're trying to capture a feeling because you know, we are.
It's a it's an interesting niche where we're we're reporting

(01:51:47):
real information in real time and these are real people's lives.
At the same time, if the show isn't something that
people like listening to, then they're gonna stop listening, and
then we lose the army of supporters.

Speaker 1 (01:51:56):
We have to try to figure these things out, so you.

Speaker 3 (01:51:59):
Know, it's there to make the show uh more listenable
and that and that's and that's what Shane does and
I think he does a he does a great job.
And you know, sometimes we're trying to capture an emotion
or we're trying to let the listeners maybe kind of
feel what we're feeling at that point.

Speaker 2 (01:52:15):
Okay, and now I'm a little bit more dry, you
know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (01:52:21):
Well, and you're going live too, so it's not that
I take.

Speaker 2 (01:52:23):
I take too, but I don't have those kind of
I don't have those kind of production qualities you have.
And I'm a protection team like that. How we real
quick because we've only got a couple of minutes, and
you know what, let's put that question off to the
next time you come back. Okay, So I don't want
to hit you with something heavy. You know you can't
answer in a short time. Tell us how people can
find you, get a hold of you. They want to
volunteer for you, what do they do?

Speaker 3 (01:52:43):
Obviously, the show's on iTunes and Stitcher and everywhere else
you get in the podcast, The Truth in Justice is
Bob Rough and our website Truth Injustice Pod Dot com
I'm very I'm personally very active on Twitter at Truth
Justice Pod. Uh, and you know, download the show. Listen
to it start at five oh one if you want
any other episodes. The hundreds are each season, So season
five is West Memphis three, the five hundred series.

Speaker 1 (01:53:04):
Jump on our Facebook page, the Faith.

Speaker 3 (01:53:05):
There's a fan page called the Truth in Justice Podcast
Fans Page. That's where there's a where most of the
discussion happens and just listen. And then you know what,
there's we give out every week our email address and
we actually have a voicemail tip line there. You know,
anybody with any information, uh, they can get there a
million different ways they can get ahold of us. And
we try to be very responsive to listeners. Its supposed

(01:53:25):
to be.

Speaker 1 (01:53:26):
It is a listener driven show. We're trying.

Speaker 3 (01:53:28):
You know, the hashtag that people use, I didn't make
it up. I think it's a little corny. But is
the Truth and Justice Army that we're all you know,
working together to one to try to to try to
actually make a difference in some people's lives.

Speaker 2 (01:53:39):
Well, why don't you give out the number in the email?
I have all my people pick prank vocals, Well out.

Speaker 1 (01:53:45):
They can do a little bit more work than that.

Speaker 2 (01:53:48):
Do you want to give out the number on the email?

Speaker 1 (01:53:50):
Sure?

Speaker 3 (01:53:50):
Our tip line is two six nine two thirty three,
and that's just a voicemail line.

Speaker 1 (01:53:55):
So you're gonna get it. You're not gonna get us.
You're gonna get a voicemail, but feel free to leave
voicemails there. Uh.

Speaker 3 (01:53:59):
The email address is theories at truthandjusicepod dot com and
you can also click the contact page.

Speaker 1 (01:54:05):
On the website.

Speaker 3 (01:54:05):
So if you have information, I'm sure with with your
listener base ed, I'm going to get some hate mail
after no, no, no.

Speaker 2 (01:54:13):
I guarantee I get more hate mail about my show
than any of the guests. And you'll trust me. You
don't you don't like the response to get I have
a lot of play people good.

Speaker 3 (01:54:22):
That's really good. And like I said, I really appreciateh
me on. I've enjoyed the discussion.

Speaker 2 (01:54:25):
No me too, very very much, and I want to
have you back. So we got to uh, Bob rough
and thank god I made it through the show because
I wrote down huff earlier today and I put a
big time I know man, right, Bob Rouff and Truth
Injustice Pod dot com. Check it out. Bob, thank you
so much, man, right.

Speaker 1 (01:54:43):
Keep in touch, yep, thank you, take care of it.

Speaker 2 (01:54:46):
Okay, guys, I just wanted we're out of time, all right,
all right, guys. Good I okay, that was Bob Roff
Truth Injustice pod dot Com. I like the guy, but
I think he's made up his mind. Be honest with you, okay,
but not that we can't change it once again. Okay,

(01:55:12):
everybody who's been following my story here this week since
I got towed in November, you know, we're out to
California to help a client and solve it a crisis.
And I come back they told my car, now my
car's broken down. We got to get a new car.
I got mold in the house. So we've been in
crisis mode here, trying to get through this and trying

(01:55:34):
to get your good shows and trying to book shows
and book guests. Yeah. I think Bob hoff Rough I
just did it for the first time. It's Bob rough
are u Ff not haf Okay, but we're doing his
members section sale thirteen months for sixty bucks. You can't
beat that, man, You can't beat that, Okay. And you
know what I'm really hoping too. By the way, I'm

(01:55:55):
taping tonight with Pierce Redmond, and I'm really hoping that
I'm not going to be this cold from that, because
this is the first winter months that I've been living
here in this apartment. I hope this isn't going to
be a prompt going forward, because I got to tell
you I'm freezing and now I got a heavy shirt on,
I made hot tea, I got the fireplace on. It's
really really rough and Bob rough okay, so check out

(01:56:17):
the member section. Also to advertising opportunity. As you may know,
we're on KYAH and AM Radio five point forty in
Utah covers a huge area in Utah. In fact, when
you drive up to fifteen, this you gotta listen to.
If you're driving up from Las Vegas up to Salt
Lake City, this is you're gonna pick up the station.

(01:56:37):
So we had great advertising opportunities, so inexpensive, you would
not believe the deal you can get by advertising on
the Opperman Report. You get a banner on Oppermanreport dot com.
You get a banner on a wake radio dot us.
I'm thinking of letting Bob go on a wake radio too,
play shows of whatever he wants to also too, Your

(01:56:58):
your ads are played between and all the hosts on
a Wake Radio twenty four to seven, okay, twelve times
a day, seven days a week. Your ed will be
played there on Awake Radio. It goes up on YouTube,
it goes up on iHeart, iTunes, Stitcher, all that stuff.
So please, if you have a product or an event,
or a book or a website that you want to promote,

(01:57:19):
email me at Oppermanreport at gmail dot com and I'll
hook you up with some really really really good rates
right now. And not just because I'm trying to get
a car, Because we're gonna get on a big station
in California. So the next step out, okay, is to
fund to sponsor us to get on this station out
in California. I'm gonna I'm gonna break even, okay, to

(01:57:41):
get us out there, just so I can promote the
member section and get us out here and start expanding
the show. That's what we're looking to do right now, Okay,
So check me out Oppermanreport at gmail dot com if
you want to become a member, or Oppermanreport dot com
if you want to check out the member section. Thanks
so much to bob Ruff Truth injusticepod dot Com. Tonight,

(01:58:05):
I'm interviewing, Yeah, I'm interviewing Pierce Redmond this evening. This
is Thursday morning. As you hear this, as I'm recording,
so and we're gonna be taping a show. He has
new information about the Jeffrey Epstein investigation that involves Roger
Stone and this guy Rothstein who was involved in that
big Ponzi scheme down there in Florida. Okay, this is

(01:58:28):
all brand new stuff that Pierce has been working on
all by himself. It's really good stuff. Coming up this week,
we have Jody Marie from Zero Waste. We're gonna be
talking to her. She's a vegan and she's this whole
philosophy of zero waste, where you create no trash in
your life, where where you consider everything, every plastic bag

(01:58:49):
you pick up, every story you pick up, that you
don't create extra trash. I've been trying to do this
and I plan on dedicating a year of my life
to try to create zero waste in my life. You know,
compost everything, you know, all my trash only use biodegradable products,
So we're working on that as well. And then what
else is coming up. I got a show with them.

(01:59:10):
Oh Scott Schwartz who is the best friend of Corey Haim,
and he calls out Corey Feldman on the show. We
have that coming up as well. So thank you so much, guys,

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