Brian Bates Private Investigator HoltzclawTrial.com

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
It's the Opperman Report.

Speaker 2 (00:06):
Join digital forensic investigator in PI Ed Opperman for an
in depth discussion of conspiracy theories, strategy of New World
Order resistance, hi profile court cases in the news, and
interviews with expert guests.

Speaker 1 (00:21):
And authors on these topics and more.

Speaker 2 (00:24):
It's the Opperman Report, and now here is investigator Ed Opperman.

Speaker 3 (00:35):
Okay, welcome to the Opperaman Report. I'm your host, private
investigator Ed Opperman. I'm the president of Opperman Investigations and
Digitalfriends and Consulting. You can find a link to my
work at email revealer dot com. You can go there
and get an autographed copy of my book, How to
Become a Successful Private Investigator, Don't forget. This show is
brought to you by cartking dot com. That's kart c

(00:58):
a art dash King. Their number is eight seven seven
nine eight six seven seven seven one. And what they
do is they build those carts in Kiosk that you
see in the center of the mall there and you're
walking through the mall and you see those carts selling
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(01:20):
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they'll ship it to you worldwide. Cartking dot com eight
seven seven nine eighty six seven seven seven to one. Okay,
we'll give us another try. I had Brian Bates a
private investigator. His website is a ware's this down there

(01:44):
Bates Bates Investigates dot com. He's also got another website
called Holtzclaw Trial dot com and that's the trial of
Daniel holtz Claw who's serving some serious time now. I
believe it's over two hundred year for a series of
sexual allegations there over in Oklahoma City. Brian Bates is

(02:06):
also the guy behind John TV. You might have seen
him on Maury Povich one hundred thousand times and Video
Vigilante okay see is his YouTube channel. So really interesting guy.
He's gonna have a podcast coming up soon about this
Daniel holtzklaw case, and I really recommend it because Brian

(02:28):
is a great way of telling a story and I'm
very well researched kind of guy. So I think you're
really going to enjoy his podcast when it finally launches. So,
Brian Bates, are you there?

Speaker 1 (02:37):
I am madam. Thank you for having me.

Speaker 3 (02:39):
Thank you so much. And this is, by the way,
people should know, this is the third time Brian Bates
is coming back. We had so many technical tyficulty problems.
I talked about it the other night about how I
was driving back and forth to the cable company tried
to get my cable back on, and Brian was over
there in Oklahoma City on the other end of the
line during all that. So God bless you, Brian, Thank
you so much. But remind the audience who is Brian Bates.

Speaker 4 (03:02):
Well, here locally, a lot of people know me as
the video vigilante. They know me as the guy behind
johntv dot com.

Speaker 1 (03:13):
But pretty much they just know me as kind of
this crazy guy.

Speaker 4 (03:16):
That exposes prostitution and human trafficking here in Oklahoma City.
And I use my video camera to do that, and
I've been doing it for about twenty plus years. When
I started off simply as a way to get the
prostitution and drug activity and pimping activity out of my
own neighborhood, and the very first time I caught somebody,
I didn't think i'd find myself that situation. Didn't know

(03:37):
what to say, so I said, you're busted, buddy, and
that line's stuck. And twenty years later people will see
me on the street and go, hey, you're busted, buddy,
and it's taken off and really educated the public to
the problem of forced prostitution and everything that goes along
with that and the detriment to the community. So it's
kind of, I guess, sort of a little local celebrity.

Speaker 1 (03:59):
In that regard.

Speaker 4 (04:00):
And so I do that, and then because of my
work doing that and do an investigative work into the
pimps and the human traffickers, I developed quite an interest
into private investigative work and got my license and became
an armed private investigator, and I began working on criminal
defense trials. I found those pretty interesting, and probably the

(04:20):
biggest trial I've worked on today would be a former
Oklahoma City police officer, Daniel holts Clause criminal trial.

Speaker 3 (04:27):
So give us an idea. Daniel holts Claw, he was
a cop for three years. How did he come to
become a defendant?

Speaker 4 (04:34):
Well, Daniel had he had, you know, fairly recently had
he even twenty ten he graduated from Eastern Michigan University.

Speaker 1 (04:43):
He was a football player, big guy, six' one.

Speaker 4 (04:46):
Six y two, two point fifty or so pounds, solid muscle.
Really had aspirations to go on to the NFL. That
didn't happen. He just, I don't I don't think was
really quite quick enough for the NFL.

Speaker 1 (04:59):
And he had a pretty quiet personality.

Speaker 4 (05:01):
And so when that didn't work out that in twenty eleven,
he was hired on by the Oklahoma City Police Department
and chose to follow really in his parents' footsteps. Daniel's
half Japanese, half Caucasian, and his mother, who's Japanese, was
actually a police officer in Japan, and his father, he's
a police officer in a smaller city in Oklahoma.

Speaker 1 (05:23):
He's a lieutenant. And so Daniel.

Speaker 4 (05:26):
Decided to follow in his parents' footsteps and become a
law enforcement officer and dedicate his life to serving the
citizens of Oklahoma. Completed the training in twenty twelve, joined
the Gang Unit in twenty thirteen for just.

Speaker 1 (05:39):
A short stage just so he could get a taste
of the gang unit.

Speaker 4 (05:43):
And then by June of twenty fourteen, these allegations are
are being leveled against him, and it really it was
something that his family didn't expect. He certainly didn't expect.
He had a bit of a reputation for being an
angier faced type of patrol office. Because he was such
a big, ominous patrol officer and because he had the

(06:04):
ability to take care of himself, they placed him very
early on in his career and probably the roughest part
of Oklahoma City, the northeast side. It's a primarily minority area,
tons of gangs, tons of drugs, very violent area of town.
And he could hold his own and he had he
had garnered well over a dozen use of force allegations

(06:25):
against him, was cleared of every single one of them.
He was one of those guys that he'd be real
respectful to you, but but if you ran from him,
he's going to come after you and he's going to
catch you. And a lot of these tough gang bangers
once they once Daniel caught him, they claimed he was
he was a little rough on him, but he was
cleared of all those things. And then one night he
did a he did an off duty stop and that

(06:49):
lady and grandmother actually made an allegation against him, and
she was sort of the lynch pin accuser. And the
ultimate conclusion to that was ultimately thirteen women went to
try against him a criminal trial. It was thirteen accusers,
thirty six alleged crimes at seventeen alleged crime scenes. And

(07:09):
he was found guilty of exactly half of those thirty
six allegations and he was sentenced to two hundred and
sixty three years in prison.

Speaker 1 (07:18):
And that's where he sits right now.

Speaker 4 (07:21):
He's being held at an undisclosed location by the Department
of Corrections and he's filed his appeal and we've yet
to hear the conclusion of that appeal.

Speaker 3 (07:32):
So the first woman who made the complaint against him
was this woman named Liggins. Can you describe that evening
what happened?

Speaker 4 (07:39):
Yeah, Daniel works twelve hour shifts and he was getting
off of It was June eighteenth of twenty fourteen, and
at about two am. He worked for this Spring Lake
Division is the briefing station that he patrolled out of,
and it was getting about two o'clock.

Speaker 1 (07:58):
It was the end of his shift. Two o'clock in
the morning.

Speaker 4 (08:00):
You'd have to return to work again around three o'clock
later that afternoon, and he turned off his computer, as
he did every time after he ended his shift. That
became pretty controversial during the trial and during the sort
of media onslaught around the trial that he had turned
his computer off. And for people who aren't familiar with
how at least our police department works, when you turn

(08:21):
off your computer inside your patrol car, you've turned off
the GPS, you've turned off everything. You're basically just driving
a sedaean at that point. And he did that at
the end of his shift. And then that was against policy.
Policy said that you had to leave your computer on
if you had to take home car, which Daniel had
to take home, had to take home car. And so
a lot of people thought, oh, this was proof that

(08:42):
he was in predator mode and he was looking for
his next victim, and he had gone dark and all
these things. Well, the reality was, and this came out
in the trial, and I have the transcripts from the trial,
that this was very rampant about officers turning off their computer,
so rampant in fact, that they had recently enacted this
post which was you cannot turn off your computer so
it was a brand new rule. And the only way

(09:04):
they even told officers about this rule is through email.
They just emailed it out to the officers, and they
admitted a trial that they had no confirmation from Daniel
he had ever received this email, that he knew anything
about the rule and that it was a new rule.
So him turning off the his computer really was a
non issue, but it people tried to turn it into one.
But regardless, two am comes he turns off his computer.

(09:27):
Basically that exact same time. In just a couple of
blocks away, a fifty seven year old woman by the grandmother,
by the name of Jannie Leggins. She's spent all late
afternoon and up to two am at another house with
another gentleman, not her boyfriend or boyfriend was on the
other side of town, but anyway, she was there. Said

(09:48):
she's playing dominoes and just conversing. So two am she's leaving,
and it just so happens that within a few minutes
Daniel and Jennie Liggins PAVs crossed, and Jennie Liggins is
his friend. Daniel, and he says that she sees her
car across the center line once or twice well, on
the street that they were on, it's pitch black, there
are no street lights. The vehicle she's driving is totally blacked.

Speaker 1 (10:10):
Out with tent.

Speaker 4 (10:11):
He can't see in the vehicle. During the daylight. When
we photograph the car, you can't see into the vehicle.
And so they pull up to the light at Northeast
fiftieth in Lincoln Boulevard, and according to both liggins and
and Holtzklaw, as they're proceeding through the intersection, he lights
her up. He turns on his strobes and indicates for
her to pull over, and she pulls over right away,

(10:33):
and he quickly realizes that this isn't gangbangers. It's isn't
a bunch of drug dealers. He's this isn't going to
be some you know, stop that's going to really mean anything.
And so he wants to make sure though since she
had been swerving, that you know that she's okay to drive,
and really he wanted to figure out what she was
doing at two am. You know, this grandmother out and
it's probably not when you picture a grandmother, she probably

(10:56):
doesn't fit that picture. She had big hoop ear rings
in she's got some colored streaks, her hair. She naturally
kind of talks in a lower tone, almost sounds like
she's slurring.

Speaker 1 (11:06):
Her eyes stay pretty.

Speaker 4 (11:07):
Closed, So if you didn't know her, you would assume
she's under the influences of maybe alcohol or drugs, and
so that's what Daniel thought initially had her come back
to the back of his car, talked to her for
you know, a few minutes to stop. In total, took
about twelve thirteen minutes, and then Daniel says that he
finally became convinced she was fine to drive home, and

(11:29):
that maybe she just got nervous because she saw a
police car behind her. Maybe that's why she kind of
crossed the center line a little bit, but he was
going to let her go.

Speaker 1 (11:36):
Janey, on the other hand, claims that.

Speaker 4 (11:38):
When she was taken to the back of his car
that at some point, and sorry gets a little graphic,
because we are talking about someone who is charged with several,
you know, sexual offenses, but she claims that at some
point he exposed his penis and that he forced her
to perform oral sex upon him, and then only after
performing that sex act was she allowed to leave. And

(12:02):
she wanted to report that incident as a crime and
of course, Daniel says it absolutely didn't happen, and that's
what started everything at that point.

Speaker 3 (12:12):
Okay, let me clarify some questions here now. First of all,
he was driving home in his police car. So this
is like a small kind of police force. Whether it's
a take home car where you could take your place
car home with.

Speaker 1 (12:23):
You right right. It was several officers. I don't know
how they decide who gets to or not.

Speaker 4 (12:28):
He actually, even though he was a new officer, was
given one of one of their brand new patrol cars
and he was allowed to take that patrol car home.
And the whole reason they have you take the patrol
car home is so that you are available if there's
any kind of an emergency in your area. One the
patrol cars get seen in neighborhoods. It helps keep the
crime down. If you see someone performing traffic infraction or

(12:50):
breaking the law, you're perfectly allowed to pull them over
or question them or detain them even though you're off duty.
So him stopping her off the clock was not against
any sort of policies. I mean, it's actually a big
police force. It's you know, it's Oklahoma City, so it's
a large police force. But a lot of officers are
allowed to take their vehicles home.

Speaker 3 (13:08):
Do we know if he had a busy shift that day,
it worked a lot of tickets or any rest or anything.

Speaker 4 (13:12):
Well, his shifts are always pretty busy. Like I said,
he's Spring Lake District, northeast part of town. It's a
lot of stop and talk with people on the street.
It's a lot of people loitering around. It's a lot
of people looking like they're up to no good. It's
a lot of people doing suspicious what looks like and
probably is in many cases street drug activity. There's lots
of gang activities, so you stop and you interact with

(13:33):
the youth on the street. And he had a lot
of contacts, but every one of his ships, he always
had a lot of contacts with men and women, but
nothing really out of the ordinary. There were no big
arrists or no and honestly, in the northeast part of town,
unless you're create, unless you're you know, conducting a pretty
serious crime, you're probably not going to get arrested. Because

(13:57):
Oklahoma City is a big department, but they're stretched very thin.
So a couple of things people need to know. Oklahoma
City patrol cars don't have dash cameras. Oklahoma City police
officers until recently did not have body cams, and at
the time of this incident twenty fourteen, the officers were
not wearing body cams. The officers patrol alone, they're not
doubled up. The only time you see officers in Oklahoma

(14:19):
City doubled up is if it's a new recruit working
with a seasoned officer and they're on their probationary period,
then they'll be doubled up.

Speaker 1 (14:27):
Otherwise, you work alone.

Speaker 4 (14:29):
And so you're not going to every time you take
someone in for some minor infraction, that's a man off
the street for potentially a couple of hours while you
book them in, do the paperwork, do those sorts of things.
So I don't believe there was any Certainly weren't any
major arrests, and it was pretty typical for Daniel and
the others in the area. Unless you're committing a felony,
they're probably not going to go in.

Speaker 3 (14:51):
But did you have a lot of contact with or calls?
What he was leading paperwork behind?

Speaker 4 (14:55):
Like, Well, there's always how they pretty much track his
activity is you have your radio traffic when you call
into dispatching you're calling someone's name in and you're running
them for wants and warrants, or you're calling yourself out
I'm at such as his call sign was to Charlie
forty five, and so if he'd go out on a location,
be too, Charlie forty five, I'm out with a couple

(15:17):
of suspects or a couple of individuals. He'd give his
location that kind of stuff, so that would count as
a stop. They do these field cards that they would
fill out, and they'd provide those field cards over to
police intelligence, Like, hey, I stopped a couple of people.
I talked to them, pretty sure they were dealing dope,
but of course I couldn't prove it, and he would
have looked at their IDs and wrote down their information,

(15:38):
and then the gang unit and the intelligence unit compile
all that information to try to develop intel on the
criminal activities.

Speaker 1 (15:44):
And then of course if you get sent on a call.

Speaker 4 (15:46):
You know, in Oklahoma City, they don't do an awful
lot of patrolling, it's an awful lot of dispatching. You
are continuously just responding to crimes that are being reported.
You're not really allowed to do much just proactive work
of getting to know the community because there's so few
officers and so many nine to one one calls coming in.
But there was nothing noted at trial that was abnormal

(16:08):
about that particular day.

Speaker 1 (16:09):
He had just he had gone from call to call
to call, just like most officers do.

Speaker 3 (16:14):
Okay, Now he pulls over Jeanie Liggings for a lane change.

Speaker 4 (16:19):
Or she was he considered car just kind of floats.
It's two lanes in either direction, so a four lane road,
and she just kind of crossed over from the inside
lane to the outside lane where tires kind of you know,
cross the center line. I think we've all seen that
officers will often use that as a precursor to allow
them to pull somebody over.

Speaker 1 (16:38):
And Daniel was this was a high crime, high gang area.

Speaker 4 (16:42):
He really thought this was giving him the opportunity to
pull over probably some people that might have some dope
on him guns are not supposed to have, or might
turn into a serious arrest.

Speaker 1 (16:51):
And it didn't.

Speaker 3 (16:53):
Okay, then if you thought this was a possibly gang
bangers in this car, right, wouldn't it be normal procedures?
Then before he got out of the car to turn
his computer back on and call into the dispatch and say,
I'm leaving my car to go visit this car here
with this license plate number on it.

Speaker 1 (17:08):
That came up, and.

Speaker 4 (17:10):
Again they you know, the even the prosecution had to concede.
That just comes down to officer discretion.

Speaker 5 (17:16):
You know.

Speaker 4 (17:17):
When you're someone of Daniel's size and aptitude out there,
he wasn't really known as calling in a lot of backup.
Typically he's the person who got called in as back
up because he was such a large person, and he
certainly was not afraid to get into a physical altercation
with someone who was going to try to flee or
fight or anything like that.

Speaker 1 (17:37):
But under a situation like this, of course it's going
to be the individual officer's call as to what they
want to do.

Speaker 6 (17:44):
But he didn't.

Speaker 4 (17:44):
For whatever reason, he didn't feel that it was really
anything to be worried about. He walks up to cars
all day long, and quite honestly, and I remember this
did come up at one point.

Speaker 1 (17:54):
They're stretched so thin in this area.

Speaker 4 (17:56):
If you called for backup, you might be sitting behind
that car for fifteen minutes waiting for somebody to show up.
It's not like in television where you call it in
and thirty seconds later you know, the cavalry's there to
back you up.

Speaker 1 (18:09):
It just isn't something that they normally do.

Speaker 4 (18:12):
Another thing that came up that's problematic is an awful
lot of the people that you stop in these areas
or females, because there's a lot of female drug traffic
and prostitution in these areas. Well, male officers are allowed
to pat female suspects down because there simply aren't enough
female officers for you to call them in and they
were able to show If you called in a female

(18:32):
officer to do a pat down on somebody or to
assist because you have a female defendant or suspect, it
may be forty five minutes or an hour before that
officer could show up.

Speaker 1 (18:42):
And now you've tied up two officers for a prolonged.

Speaker 4 (18:44):
Period of time in an area of town that already
doesn't have enough officers patrolling.

Speaker 1 (18:49):
So I really didn't find that. I don't think anybody
else found it odd. You know.

Speaker 4 (18:54):
One of the things that I think might have been
a little odd for some people is you just get
an awful lot of officers at the end of a
twelve hour ship. They don't want to mess with traffic infractions.
That's why they turn their computers off. They just don't
want to deal with it. You got to keep in
mind Daniel wasn't an officer with ten or twenty years
in Where's he's just tired of it already and ready
to retire. He had really once you take out his
time going through the academy and going through probation, he

(19:16):
had only been on the streets for about two years,
so he was still a pretty gung ho patrol officer
at this point.

Speaker 3 (19:23):
But it's not a procedure down there in Oklahoma City
for an officer not called for backup, but just to
call in and say I'm leaving they have a code,
I'm leaving my car now exiting the you know, and
then actually to give the plate number of the car
you're approaching.

Speaker 4 (19:37):
It's not a policy, it's it's certainly I would say,
would be highly advisable, but that is, it's not a
policy violation. They don't have to call those things in.
It's certainly suggested for officers safety.

Speaker 1 (19:49):
That they do. So.

Speaker 4 (19:50):
If all of a sudden you don't hear them on
radio traffic, or you can't get them on the radio
for ten minutes, you've got some sort of idea what
they were last doing.

Speaker 1 (19:57):
But it was not a violation of any policies.

Speaker 3 (20:00):
Okay. Now, and when you said that, he had her
eggsit the car and go to the hood of his car. Now,
at any time, he never turned his computer back on
to run her for warrants.

Speaker 5 (20:11):
No.

Speaker 4 (20:11):
Once he made contact with her and she gave a story,
she was able to give an address where she had
just come from, the name of the person she had
just been with. She's she's got an open drink like
maybe a red Solo cup or something like that with her.

Speaker 1 (20:26):
He smells it.

Speaker 4 (20:27):
He can't tell that there's any alcohol in it, even
though she does look a little suspicious for at two
am to be out looking the way that she does.
He pretty much assessed at this point that her story,
you know, seems to check out, seems to be true.
His other problem was she, she expressed to him, asked
for a driver's license and insurance. Well, she didn't have
either one, and come to find out she hadn't had

(20:48):
a driver's license in thirty years of course, Also to
come to find out, she'd been pulled over many many
times without that driver's license, without that insurance, and had
never been arrested for it, and even the prosecution, one
of theane investigators against Toltzklaw even testified that one in
Oklahoma in general, one in three people does not carry.

Speaker 1 (21:11):
Insurance on their vehicle, even though legally they're.

Speaker 4 (21:14):
Supposed to, and that pulling people over and finding out
they don't have a driver's license or insurance on this
part of town was extremely common, and that it was
not uncommon for those people not to be arrested or
not even to be ticketed, because it's just it's so
chronic in these neighborhoods. And we were able to show
where Jane You had been pulled over several times and
didn't have any of these credentials, and she still wasn't arrested,

(21:36):
So it wasn't odd that Daniel didn't do anything either.

Speaker 1 (21:39):
And Daniel's explanation for that was if I took.

Speaker 4 (21:42):
Her in, if I towed her car and I took
her in to jail for it, Well, one, if she
doesn't have a license and doesn't have insurance and she's
driving this old beat he car, she's probably not going
to be able to bond out. She's not going to
be able to pay the ticket. Another warrant will be
issued for arrest when she doesn't pay her ticket. So
he was just going to let her, just going to
let her go. Plus it was also going to add
probably two hours onto his twelve hour shifts. And now

(22:04):
he's fourteen hours before he gets to go home, and
he's got to be back at work later that afternoon.
So after talking to her for about ten minutes or so,
he decides to go ahead and just let her go.
And all of those things, even the investigators who were
working against Daniel, they all admitted at trial none of
those things were policy violations. Some of them were probably

(22:25):
ill advised just for his own safety, but none of
them broke the law, and none of them were even
against policy.

Speaker 3 (22:31):
I tell you I should move over there, man. I
got pulled over once with no inshuns. I got a
thousand dollars, find that this DV same thing.

Speaker 4 (22:38):
Would happened to me, And you know, it's one of
those things they just kind of lapped off, you know,
his officer discretion and a lot of new officers might
arrest people and take people. But then you realize in
those parts of town it is so common you would
literally spend your entire shift doing nothing but taking people
to the jail for not having insurance or driver's license.

Speaker 1 (22:58):
Now, some citizens like me may say, well, so what you.

Speaker 4 (23:01):
Know they need to get because one of those people
is going to end up running into me and they're
not going to have any insurance. But it's just something
that unless you live in one of these parts of
town and you realize that's the norm, walking around with
misdemeanor warrants, walking around without an ID, walking around without
driver's license or an insurance, that's just sort of a
norm in these parts of town.

Speaker 3 (23:21):
I'd say, Now, you said that she had been pulled
over many times before with no driver's license and no
insurance and was never arrested.

Speaker 5 (23:29):
Right.

Speaker 4 (23:29):
I don't want to say many times because that means
different things to different people. But there were instances, a
handful three or four times over thirty years, she had
been pulled over and there was no evidence that they
did anything about it, and they certainly didn't arrest her
over it.

Speaker 3 (23:44):
And we know about that because those offices called in.

Speaker 4 (23:48):
Well, there'll be a history of it, right, right, there'll
be a history that that happened, that it called in,
and she was given a warning or those sorts of things,
and there'll be a history that that happened. In Daniel's case,
it wasn't documented that way. However, she made her complaint,
you know, within a couple of hours of being pulled over,
which to her favor, she did that because you try

(24:09):
to look for things that someone does, and that is
the profile of someone who may potentially really be a victim.
And she did report almost immediately. Those are are some
problems with her reporting, but she did report. But the
next day, when Daniel comes into report to lineup before
they go out on patrol, they just asked a general question, Hey, died,

(24:31):
anybody here happen to pull someone over at Northeast fiftieth
and Lincoln Boulevard around two am last night? And Daniel
immediately said, yeah, that was me. And now they already
thought that it probably was Daniel. They had been investigating this,
you know, all evening all the next day, and they
felt that it was probably Daniel who had done that,
but they wanted to see if he would self identify,
and he did immediately, and then they took him in

(24:53):
and did what they called an interview, but it was
really an interrogation. From that point on, but no, there
was no so there was no record of the stop
other than him.

Speaker 1 (25:03):
When he was asked about it the next day, he said, yeah,
that was me.

Speaker 4 (25:05):
I stopped some lady. She was driving a slightly erradically
and I just let her go.

Speaker 3 (25:12):
Okay, good time. Take a commercial break with Brian Bates
is a private investigator. We're talking about the Daniel holtzklaw case.
Check out the holtz Claw Trial dot com. That's h
O l t Zclawtrial dot com. We'd be right back
with more of Daniel, Brian and Brian. And now a

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ninety nine cents. Okay, welcome back to the Operaman Report.

(29:53):
We're here today with Brian Bates, private investigator Basinvestigates dot
com and we're talking about the Daniel Claw trial. It's
a holdall holts Claw Trial dot com is the website
we could find more information on this. Uh love thely
tell the story, Daniel. Where can we find when your
podcast is going to start playing? Where are you going
to play? What a performat you can use? What platform?

Speaker 4 (30:15):
Well, hopefully it will be available on all of your
major platforms, you know, through iTunes and and you know
what are all of your major platforms, and you'll be
able to, you know, see what episodes are available in
that at Holtzclaw Trial dot com where I'm literally calling
it at this point holds Claw Trial dot Com the
podcast and and really that the whole idea of of

(30:37):
doing a podcast, you know, this many years later after
the trial is in something we really haven't talked about yet.
I am I'm one hundred percent convinced after being one
of the only people who's who's one set down and
talked with Daniel. Daniel never testified at his own trial.
I've spent literally hundreds of hours with him. I've gone
through every piece of discovery evidence. I've been to this

(31:00):
scenes multiple times. I've talked with these people, I've watched
every interview, I've gone through every police report. Not only
is there not a single piece, not a single piece
of direct forensic evidence that a single one of these
thirty six crimes was committed. But there's also not a
single independent third party witness.

Speaker 1 (31:19):
Now, some people go, Okay, that's lawyer talk or PI
talk for my guy did it, but you can't prove it.
I'll go beyond that.

Speaker 4 (31:27):
I feel one hundred percent that Daniel Holtz Claude did
not commit a single one of the allegations, let alone
the eighteen that he was actually convicted for and basically
given a life sentence over. And the whole idea behind
the podcast is I want the public to be able
to see every piece of discovery evidence.

Speaker 1 (31:47):
I want them to read every police report.

Speaker 4 (31:49):
I want them to see every videotaped interview, listen to
every audio interview. And so the whole purpose of the
podcast is at the end of each episode, and there's
going to be many episodes, at the end of each episode,
all of the corresponding discovery evidence that goes with that
episode will be posted online. So people can't say, well,
that's Brian's take on it, but what did the report

(32:09):
really say? The report will be there online and everybody
will get to read it, and everybody, I'm hoping will
come to the same conclusion that I did that justice
was not served and you do not send anybody, let
alone police officers to jail for the rest of their
lives on the word of crack addicts, street prostitutes, terrible,

(32:30):
terrible investigative work and not have a single piece of
actual direct forensic evidence, and you can't produce a single witness.
Daniel is not a mastermind criminal. And it would take
a mastermind criminal to have thirteen victims, thirty six crimes,
and seventeen crime scenes and not leave any evidence.

Speaker 3 (32:50):
Okay, we'll get into that, but I want to fish
up with Liggans here because now, how does she make
her complaint to the police at night?

Speaker 1 (32:59):
What she did? And again I give this to her credit.

Speaker 4 (33:02):
She acted like a victim would and this is why
and something for many months when I met with Daniel,
I would tell him when he would ask me, do
you think I did it? And I would say, well,
I think you probably did something that you're accused of.
I just got to figure out what it is. And
it took me a long time before I realized he
didn't do any of these things. But one of the
most compelling accusers is Janie Liggins, and she after the

(33:23):
traffic stop and if you go to holds Claw trial
dot com or you go to the YouTube page holds
Claw Trial. I actually have the video from the traffic stop.
There was a surveillance camera on a building right there
where they were parked. Now, it's a grainy it's at night,
but you can see people moving around. You can get
an idea of what's happening that's posted online. Well, you
see her driving, go on about her way. You see

(33:44):
Daniel going about his way. Apparently Janie Wiggins drives home.
She lives on the other part of town. She lives
in an apartment complex. She lives with her boyfriend of
about thirty years, and they live with her adult daughter,
who also lives with her boyfriend, and then the adult
daughter's children. So it's a whole lot of people packed

(34:04):
into this very small apartment. She heads home, and when
she gets home, according to Jennie Liggins, she wakes up,
or maybe her daughter was still awake at this point,
I don't recall. Anyway, she has a discussion with her
adult daughter and reportedly claims that she was sexually assaulted
by Daniel holtz Claw. Then he gets in the car
with her daughter, wake up her boyfriend boyfriend, he goes

(34:28):
to work.

Speaker 1 (34:28):
He works somewhere where he's got.

Speaker 4 (34:30):
To be there, probably around four or five in the morning,
so he about four in the morning, maybe he leaves
and goes to work. And this is where it gets
a little strange because the boyfriend he reported a completely
different story. He reported that Janie Liggins called him on
her way home and said, I've just been raped by
an Oklahoma City police officer. I'm scared to death. Stay
on the phone with me. I'm on my way home.
And he was so worried about her. He was waiting

(34:51):
in the front yard when she got there, and that
even though he had to go to work because he
can't lose his job, that he followed in his car
until Janie got met up with police officers that were
not one of the ones that assaulted her. Then and
only then did he go on to work. Well, they
didn't match Janie's story. Janney said, well, no, I didn't
call him because I didn't know where my phone was.
I actually thought I lost my phone during the traffic stop,

(35:13):
but come to find out, I was sitting on it.
And when I got home, I spoke with my daughter
and my boyfriend was asleep and we had to wake
him up. And then after we woke him up, he
went on to work and we went and reported it.
So there was a pretty significant difference there. But what
it appears that happened is is regardless of who was
awake and who told who what whatever, she drove across

(35:34):
town for whatever reason, passed the downtown Oklahoma City Police station,
which is the main headquarters.

Speaker 1 (35:39):
It's opened twenty four hours a day.

Speaker 4 (35:41):
They drive past it, and they go back over into
the spring Lake district where she was pulled over, and
they go to the spring Lake Briefing Station, which is
a very small police office. It's closed, it's not open
twenty four hours. So as they're leaving that area, they
see two officers pulled over in a parking lot literally
a block away from where she says she was sexually
as so there was a high probability one of those

(36:02):
officers might still be Daniel Holtzklaw And they pull up
and it's not. It's two other officers, and she says
she wants to report being sexually assaulted by anal Clemacity
police officer. At that moment, those officers immediately notify dispatch
to send out a supervisor and to start the sexual
assault investigator to the scene. And then Janie is taken

(36:24):
to a local hospital where she's given a sane exam
or a rape kit that comes back negative for the
presence of any indicators that she had been sexually assaulted
or engaged in any sexual activity, and then she gives
her account of what happened to the lead detective.

Speaker 1 (36:41):
The lead detective is Kim Davis.

Speaker 4 (36:44):
And oddly enough, even though Kim Davis either audio or
video recorded most of the other accusers, she did not
audio or video record the statements of Janie Leggins. Yet
at trial she proclaimed that Jannie Liggins was so convincing
she became convinced that Janie Liggins was telling the truth
before she had ever even talked to Daniel holtz Clau,

(37:05):
before they'd ever done any investigation.

Speaker 1 (37:07):
She went on the record at trial and said, I.

Speaker 4 (37:10):
Believe Jane before I did anything else, because of the
way Janie was acting and how she talked, but that
she didn't bother to record this so the rest of
us could get that same sense. As a matter of fact,
she lied during the trial and said that officers, we
don't record statements from sexual assault victims. Well, apparently she
forgot that they actually had recordings from many of the

(37:30):
sexual assault victims. So I don't understand why she was
trying to mislead people there when it was so easy
to disprove. But regardless, Janie made the report. She did
the same Saint exam. Saint exam came back negative. Police
took her allegations very seriously. They went and found her
vehicle that she'd been driving, which her husband drove to
work that day. They processed that vehicle. They immediately took

(37:54):
Daniel's car and they processed his vehicle because some things
that became very important. Or when Daniel gets interrogated, which
is only hours after this traffic stop, it's the next afternoon.

Speaker 1 (38:05):
He pulls her over at two am.

Speaker 4 (38:07):
Around three o'clock the next afternoon, he's in the interrogation
room and they're interrogating him. That an unredacted version or
unredacted copy of that interrogation is also available at holtzklawtrial
dot com or more specifically on the Holtz Claw Trial
YouTube paging, and you can watch that interrogation. In my
opinion and in Daniel's family's opinion, they're watching an innocent

(38:28):
man not understand what's happening to him, and he's being
as honest as he possibly can. There are some really
key points during that interview process. A couple of things was,
it's one of the most odd interrogation videos you will
ever watch. Some of the things that these seasoned sex
crimes investigators said are extremely odd.

Speaker 1 (38:49):
I've got a piece of audio that I'd like to
queue up here that is.

Speaker 4 (38:53):
This is moments after Daniel has come into the interrogation
room and he's meeting detectives Kim Davis, who's female, and
Detective Rocky Gregory, who's a male. They're both seasoned officers
and uh, and this is how they open up a
discussion that they're getting ready to have with an officer
on a sexual assault claim.

Speaker 1 (39:12):
And I'll play this real quick.

Speaker 5 (39:20):
I'm masturbated, right and well, end on you are.

Speaker 4 (39:30):
I don't know if you heard that how clearly, but
the officers start off their conversation without any any lead
up to it, going this is which hand I masturbate with.
They're not I mean, he's just giving Daniels, just giving
his name and his badge number and just sitting down
and they're immediately talking. You know, Rocky saying I'm masturbate
with this hand and the female detective saying, I use

(39:51):
both hands. It's the most odd interrogation that you've ever heard.
But but beyond that, that's how it started. But beyond that,
there was some very key differences between what Daniel said
happened that night, beyond the sexual assault, and what Jannie
Liggins said. And these are things that could be proved
in one way or another, and every single time the

(40:13):
proof fell in disfavor. And a couple examples are Jeniegins
tells the police that when Daniel pulls her over, he
has her get out of the car, and then he
has her place her hands on the hood of his
car while he padded her down, something I'm sure she's
probably seen on cops or TV shows or movies, and
then puts her in the car. It's more more like

(40:33):
a felony stop. And so they asked Daniel, so when
you got Jennie Niggins out of the car, you took
her to the front of your car and you patted
her down, And he goes, no, there wasn't any I
didn't really feel that there was any reason to pat
her down. I didn't feel like she was probably concealing
anything or whatever. I just put her straight in the
back of the car, so that that's a significant difference.
So they immediately processed the hood of his car, Jennie

(40:55):
Niggs' fingerprints nor DnaA or anywhere on the hood of
that car, So that is to show that Daniel was
the one telling the truth at that point. Then later
on in the story, Jennie Liggins says, there were a
couple of cars driving by on the street, and so
Daniel placed his hands up on top of his car
as he leaned in and forced me to perform oral sex,
and he was trying to block the view of passing cars. Well,

(41:17):
there's two problems with that statement. One, they were in
the far north lane up against the curb. Any cars
that went by them would be to the south of them,
So Daniel leaning into his car isn't blocking anything because
the cars aren't on the north side of him, they're
on the south side of him. But regardless, they asked Daniel,
So when you were talking to Janieliggins, and you know
you're probably having a hard time hearing her because of

(41:38):
the traffic and other things, so you leaned in and
she said, you put your hands up on top of
the car as you leaned in, And he goes, no,
I never put my hands up on top of my car.
That wouldn't be a safe position to be in in case,
you know, something happened. And sure enough they've processed the
top of his car, his fingerprints, DNA, None of that
exists on the top of his car.

Speaker 1 (41:59):
Then another exam Let me stop you there for a second.

Speaker 3 (42:01):
Was he in the habit of wearing gloves. You see
a lot of cops that wear gloves.

Speaker 1 (42:04):
No, no, no, gloves. He doesn't. He doesn't wear gloves.

Speaker 3 (42:07):
Does he carry gloves with him?

Speaker 4 (42:10):
It never came up if he carried any gloves, if
he ever had gloves on him at any time, But
there was certain there was never any concern that came up,
and certainly the prosecution never tried to forward that Daniel
wore gloves. I know in all the pictures that we
have and all the other evidence that we had with Daniel,
he never has gloves on. In my interactions with officers,
the only time I ever see them with gloves is

(42:32):
if they're dealing Sometimes they deal with some of our
some of our homeless or someone who's been in an
accident and they've got these I guess are issued to him,
these really bright purple latex gloves that they may put
on at that point at a scene. But that was
something that was never came up or an issue was,
you know, did he have gloves on? She certainly didn't
mention that he ever had any gloves on. And then

(42:52):
the one other example wanted to give real quick because
she claimed that when he was forcing her to perform
oral sex that it was over with pretty quickly because
a metallic gold colored shuv drove by very slowly, and
because it drove by slowly, it made Daniel nervous, so
he immediately stopped her from performing oral sex and said, okay,

(43:12):
you can go, and had her leave and he left. Well,
when you actually watch the surveillance video which is online,
you see at the point that this metallic colored shuv
drives by, it's almost a full two minutes later before
Janie Liggins ever walks back to her car. So there
are some pretty critical details that in each instance Daniels
says he's being truthful, Janie says she's being truthful, but

(43:34):
the evidence in each time supports Daniel's version of events,
which to me I thought was very telling, considering she
was probably the most credible of all of the accusers.
Another reason I thought that possibly this woman was telling
the truth initially was because in something that's replayed in
the media over and over and over again is why
would this woman lie? Why would this fifty seven year

(43:56):
old grandmother lie? And they always say this over get
fifty seven year old this grandmother because everyone wants you
to have a certain picture in your head of this
little grandmother who bakes pies all day and then she
sits on her patio and waits for the grandkids to
come over. That is not the grandmomother that Janie Leggans is.
She's She's the only you know she had a contact
at one point. Of course, it was thirty years ago.

(44:17):
By the time she lost her driver's license. She's on
the side of a drug manufacturing area that the police
are rating. She'll never bother get her license restored. She's
out at two am. Lots of reporters or her going
out to the bars and doing things. She's not acting
like the grandmother the media wants you to picture in
your head. And all of that's fine. It's perfectly however,

(44:38):
she wants to live her life. That's perfectly fine. But
the problems that came into play then was then why
would she miligation at trial on the stand lead investigator
Kim Davis. And she also said this in media interviews
that false sexual assault allegations against Oklahoma City officers is
extremely common, so common in fact, that she herself works

(45:02):
at least one of those cases per month, and she
said in all of those cases, there are three main
reasons that a female will make a false sexual assault
allegation against an officer, and she said the number one
reason is to get out of a ticket or an arrest.
That doesn't apply in this case because Janie wasn't arrested
or ticketed. But number two is to get back at

(45:22):
an overly aggressive or rude police officer. I don't know
if Daniel's rude or not, but I do know that
he is aggressive. He had over a dozen use of
force complaints against him that we're all found in his favor,
but he is an intimidating big figure. I'm going to
go ahead and say that maybe she felt disrespected and
felt he was being rude, because he probably did feel

(45:44):
like she was probably a drug addict or a prostitute,
because that area of town is filled with those types
of people, especially those types of people that are out
and about at two am, So he probably did offend
her and probably was rude to her.

Speaker 1 (45:56):
And then the number three reason is to get money.

Speaker 4 (45:59):
And of course Jennie leg along with all of the
other accusers minus one, all have filed either state or
federal lawsuits against Daniel and against the city and are
seeking millions of dollars in damages.

Speaker 1 (46:12):
So two thirds of the reasons.

Speaker 4 (46:14):
That women commonly file false accusations against police officers do
count for Janie Liggans. So to say she didn't have
a reason to do this would not be correct.

Speaker 3 (46:24):
Cotin clarif for me a couple of things. You mentioned
that she had went back home and then returned back
to the scene. Does she bring her daughter with her?
And when she went back to the scene.

Speaker 4 (46:33):
Well, what we know for certain is that she got
home and that her boyfriend got into her car, that
she had been driving this red sedan, older red sedan,
and that he went to work. And then Jane got
into her adult daughter's car, and then her adult daughter's
boyfriend and their children they woke them up. They all
piled into a car and for whatever reason, drove across

(46:56):
town past the main police headquarters, and drove back to
the area where she had been pulled over. They claim
that they called into police trying to get somebody. The
police admitted that they had no record of any such
call and that they went to the Spring Lake briefing station.
Another detail that I forgot to mention that I think

(47:17):
is very important. We do know for a fact that
at some point before she actually reported the crime, the
alleged crime, that she called a cousin of hers, a
cousin of hers who happens to be an Oklahoma City
police officer, And they called this cousin and said, Jennie
Liggins says that she's been sexually assaulted by a police
officer during a traffic stop. We're going to go to

(47:39):
the spring Like briefing station, or we're going to go
to the police station, probably is what they called it,
and report it. That officer said, no, what you need
to do, which is a cousin of theirs, you need
to stay right where you are. You need to dial
nine one one, You need to tell them to send
out a supervisor. Immediately and that you have a serious
complaint against an officer who was just involved in a
traffic as traffics and they will come to you. Even

(48:02):
though they sought out this cousin for advice, The cousin
told them exactly what to do, to dial nine one
one and give them the information. They chose to disregard that,
even though they sought his advice and instead went to
these places claim that they then called the police department.
Police department says they have no record of that call,
and then went to a station that was closed and
then flagged down to officers. Now, I do not think

(48:24):
I do not think it's a stretch that if her
allegations are false and that she made those allegations up,
people will say why didn't she do what her cousin said?
And I've racked my brain trying to figure out why
you wouldn't do exactly what your cousin, who you called
for advice, told you to do. It's because they hadn't
quite gotten their story straight yet. And if you dial
nine one one, that's going to be recorded, So any

(48:46):
statement you say is going to be on tape, and
they're probably going to ask you follow up questions that
at that point they were not prepared to answer. That's
the only reasonable conclusion I can come to that when
your cousin, the police officer says file nine one one
and wait for them to come to you, and you
choose not to do that, it's because you don't want
your statement to re recorded, because you haven't quite worked

(49:08):
your statement out yet.

Speaker 3 (49:09):
Okay, but you're familiar that nine one one calls are recorded,
and I'm familiar. But do you think that she was?

Speaker 5 (49:14):
Oh?

Speaker 4 (49:15):
Absolutely, I think we all hear you turn on the
news almost every night now and some dateline episode or
some whatever is playing back that.

Speaker 1 (49:21):
Nine one one call.

Speaker 4 (49:22):
It's something that's routinely done now, is they play nine
one one calls back so the public can hear them.

Speaker 3 (49:28):
Maybe I'm getting old, Maybe you're right. Now, What about
what was the lapse of time from the time that
she left contact with the holtz Claw and returned back
home and then finally made that report. How many miles
is that and how much time span?

Speaker 4 (49:44):
You know, I don't have it in front of me,
so I'm going to say right now, I'm giving my
best guess, but I know for her to drive across
town we looked it up once before. It was about
a fifteen minute drive for her to get to get
from where she was back to the apartment that she
was living in with her daughter, And that she had
reported this within a little over an hour or so

(50:06):
after the traffic stopped. I'm going to say relatively quickly,
not like she immediately went to you know. Of course
in the old days, we'd say went to a payphone
and called police. But she certainly didn't drive straight. She
had time to make some phone calls, wake people up,
drive to the other part of town.

Speaker 1 (50:21):
So I believe, if my recollection is correct, we're talking about.

Speaker 4 (50:24):
An hour and a half before she before she flagged
down two officers and made her report.

Speaker 3 (50:30):
And so you believe that in one hour she came
up with this idea that, hey, I can make money
off of this traffic stop. When you got to remember too, now,
she'd had no idea that his computer was turned off,
she had no idea that he was off duty. She
didn't know any of these things.

Speaker 4 (50:44):
Well, no, she knew that he was off duty, because
she repeated that back. He'd even told her, I'm just
going to I just got off my shift. I really
just want to go home. I'm going to let you go.

Speaker 1 (50:54):
So she knew that she repeated that during her report.
So they had obviously during this twelve minute or so stop,
there was chit chat that was going on, and he
had shared those sorts of things.

Speaker 4 (51:03):
What I personally think, and I have no proof that
this is what happened, but what I personally think is
at least realistic as a possibility, is that she was
upset with Daniel. She felt like she was probably treated
like a common drug addict. She was probably treated like
a prostitute. She was probably treated like things and in
a way that offended her. He may have even made

(51:24):
accusations towards her to see if she would admit to anything.

Speaker 1 (51:28):
I don't know, And I think she got home and
I think she was mad.

Speaker 4 (51:31):
And I think when you look up her history, and
you look at the number of times that she's been
evicted from different homes that she's lived in, and financial
obligations that she hasn't met to different people, and you
look at the criminal histories of the girlfriend's boyfriend and
these sorts of things, I think she came home and
I think she was pissed, and I think she was
probably going to be Daniel's number sixteenth use of force complaint,

(51:53):
because lots of people filed the use of force complaints
against Daniel that didn't involve any sort of sexual activity.

Speaker 1 (51:59):
And I think she came home pissed off about that
and was going to do that.

Speaker 4 (52:02):
And I think probably, I honestly, for just looking at
the backgrounds of these individuals, I think that probably Janie's
daughter's adult boyfriend may have been the instigator of this
and said that ain't going to get you anywhere, you know.

Speaker 1 (52:15):
Him being rude to you. Let's up the antie.

Speaker 4 (52:18):
And so I think that then she decided that she
and I don't know at what point or how quickly
she decided she had turned it into a sexual assault claim,
but I think they decided very early on they were
going to file a complaint that possibly there was money
to be made here. Janie's Janie's flat broke. They're sharing
a car with her boyfriend. She's working part time, basically
at a daycare center. The husband's working overnight. Shortly got

(52:41):
laid off not too long after this. They're sharing a car.
She didn't have a driver's license. They're living in a
Section eight apartment with her with her daughter. She's dead, broke,
and this is a pretty good way to try to
get some money. And as the even the police investigators say,
they see this all the time, and I think at
some point they went from being just a plaint about
this officer too, let's up the antie and let's make

(53:03):
it a sexual assault. And I don't think that she
had any idea that this was going to become the
firestorm that it became.

Speaker 3 (53:10):
Now did she ever describe why he told her he
was of duty?

Speaker 4 (53:15):
She just said that he had he had well, actually,
at some point he just mentioned, you know, that he
had just had a long day in a shift, and
then said something about to the effect of let's you know,
hurry up and get this uh, you know, uh oral
sex or whatever street term you want to use, out
of the way, and then I'm going to go home.

Speaker 1 (53:35):
But he had indicated however it was, and even he remembers.

Speaker 4 (53:38):
Telling her that, Yeah, I told her, I you know,
it's late, I'm off I'm off duty.

Speaker 1 (53:41):
I want to get home. I thought this was going
to be something more serious than it was. It's not.

Speaker 4 (53:46):
And so I'm going to let you go because quite frankly,
I'm being lazy and I just want to go home
at this point if it's not going to be a
good arrest, because there is like a points system that
the officers get the fellony arrests and things like that.

Speaker 1 (53:57):
This wasn't going to get Daniel any points.

Speaker 4 (53:59):
It wasn't more turning his computer back on and taking
her downtown and not getting home for two or three
more hours.

Speaker 1 (54:05):
And so during that chit chat, she knew that he
had just gotten off work.

Speaker 3 (54:09):
And you said, they you base it on the boyfriend's
background and the daughter's background Section eight and stuff like that.
Have you had a chance, were they deposed or have
you had a chance to anstereview them yourself and talk
to them?

Speaker 4 (54:20):
Well, they don't, you know, they wouldn't do any depositions
in a case like this. All we have to go
by our police report. They conveniently did not record. Even
though they recorded all these other statements, they recorded none
of the statements of Janie Liggins or any of her
immediate family members. Another thing that I found from actually
from the get go, that made me question the truthfulness
of Janie Leiggins. And actually, as soon as I realized

(54:42):
that she had a boyfriend of thirty years. Yet she's
over at some other man's house until two o'clock in
the morning. I found that to be a little odd,
but you know, everybody's different.

Speaker 1 (54:50):
I don't know. It's certainly not illegal, but she said
she was headed home.

Speaker 4 (54:53):
And anyone who's familiar with Oklahoma City, and you bring
up a map and you look at the corner of
Northeast fiftieth in Lincoln Boulevard, she based would have been
heading in general the same direction Daniel was, And they
were heading the same direction. But at northeast fiftieth in Lincoln,
Daniel normally would have made a right hand turn going
north on Lincoln Boulevard and got onto the highway to
head to where he was going. Well, that's what Janie

(55:14):
should have done. Also, if she truly was headed home
at that intersection, she should have indicated that she wanted
to make a right hand turn or go north, got
on the highway and headed home.

Speaker 1 (55:23):
Instead, she didn't turn on her blinker. And even she
admits she went through.

Speaker 4 (55:27):
The intersection and was going to continue westbound, that's not
the way she would go if she was trying to
go home. Now, she could eventually get there but she'd
have to go through some slower residential streets, she'd have
to loop back, then she could head home. I don't
know what she was doing that night at two am,
whenever she left the other gentleman's house.

Speaker 1 (55:44):
I do not believe that at that moment she was
heading straight home.

Speaker 4 (55:47):
And I don't know why she lied about where she
was going, but it doesn't make sense that she was
going the way that she was going if she was
truly heading home. So you take that, you take the
what are you doing at a What are you doing
at another guy's house? Why do you say you're heading
home when it obviously appears you're not heading home? Why
did you give specific details about the stop that Daniel

(56:09):
totally contradicts different things, being touched, stuff like that, when
there's zero evidence that had happened, and it supports Daniel's
side of the story.

Speaker 1 (56:18):
All of those things tell me this person is not
being truthful. I don't know why.

Speaker 4 (56:22):
Is it because they made up all of the allegations.
Is it because that's just they just go through their
life and don't necessarily tell the truth.

Speaker 1 (56:28):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (56:30):
Okay, But again too, if she was heading again to
another boyfriend's house and pick up drug wherever she was
going someone other than home. After the stop, she didn't
ultimately go home, so that in order if.

Speaker 4 (56:40):
You watch the and here's where she tried to say, well,
I was going home that way, I just would yeah,
I would have meandered through the neighborhood. Well, when the
traffic stop was over, what does she do? She makes
a U turn and doubles back to the.

Speaker 3 (56:51):
Corner or trial dot com and keep you right on

(57:55):
that site because it's gonna be the podcast coming up
with the uh Brian Bates right back after these messages
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(01:01:41):
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on YouTube. Okay, welcome back to the Opperaman Report. I'm

(01:02:29):
your host, Private investigator Ed Opperman. We're here today with
Brian Bates, private investigator from Oklahoma City, Oklahoma. I guess
we're talking about that the Daniel holts Claw trial Holsclaw
Trial dot com and keep an eye out for Daniel's
podcast coming up to as well. Now, now, as you
mentioned to it, and when we tried to do the

(01:02:50):
previous interview that she then went out and hired an
attorney and started doing media interviews.

Speaker 4 (01:02:56):
Well, what she did well, we know, you know, some
of the things we don't know for sure, but based
on the timeline I was able to put together, she
reports she has a traffic stop and reports on June eighteenth,
twenty fourteen, and makes accusations against Daniel. On the twenty third,
she does her first on camera interview. This is a

(01:03:17):
woman who claims she's a sexual assault victim. Has been
reassured and certainly the evidence was there that police are
taking her concerns extremely seriously. They're doing lots of interviews,
they're pulling surveillance tapes, They've pulled Daniel in. They immediately
took him off the streets and put him on administrative leave.
All these things are happening against the wishes of investigators.

(01:03:39):
She goes public and goes on the news with her
allegations against Daniel, and that happens on the twenty third,
and what becomes really weird was there's only one accuser.
At this point, only one person has made any sort
of accusation against Daniel holt's Claw, and that's Janie Liggins.
But literally we know from the police reports that on

(01:04:02):
what was it on six twenty two days after she
makes a report, the Oklham City Police Department starts to
create what later becomes the perfect victim profile. Even though
they only have one accuser, they have now decided that
they believe Daniel holts Claw is a serial offender, and
they immediately a lieutenant Muzsny, I have the police reports

(01:04:23):
and they will be published, where he says, let's pull
the names of every female Daniel holts Claw stopped while
on duty over the last two months, and we're going
to start interviewing these women. Well, they find out real
quickly that list is huge. So he says, Okay, this
isn't going to work, so we're going to reduce it
from all women that he stopped. Let's reduce it to

(01:04:43):
black females. So they reduce it to black females. Well,
it's the northeast part of town, so it really doesn't
reduce the list very much. The list is still huge
for whatever reason. And even though this doesn't even fit
Janie Liggins's own profile, they say, and it's in the
police report, we reduce the list again, reduced it to
black females with a history of prostitution and or drug arrests,

(01:05:06):
and then they called that Daniel's profile. No black females
with the history of prostitution and drug arrests have made
any allegations against Daniel. But they came up with the
profile first. That's called confirmation bias. They decided this is
who Daniel was and this is what he was going
to do, and they developed a bias where they only

(01:05:27):
sought information that reinforced a conclusion they had already drawn.
And that is not me saying that that is in
the record, in the police record, and all of those
things will will be published, and they became part of
the trial, but for some reason didn't have the weight
that I think that they should have had.

Speaker 3 (01:05:48):
You know, you mentioned earlier that none of these cases
had they had no direct forensic evidence. But there was
a seventeen year old that they found DNA on his zipper.
I heard DNA right.

Speaker 1 (01:06:02):
Yep, Yes, there was.

Speaker 4 (01:06:03):
There was a seventeen year old, a Dera Gardner. She
had been stopped. She actually was stopped twice by Daniel.
She Initially he was on patrol and he saw Gardener
with another female and with a known black male pimp.
I believe he went by the street name Money, and
he pulls up because it looks like a prostitution deal happening,

(01:06:25):
and he pulls up. He actually lies when he pulls up,
and he tells him there was a call about a domestic.
I think he could see from a distance kind of
arms flying, they were yelling at each other or whatever.
So he just claims that someone called in a domestic
because then that makes them feel like, oh, the neighbors
are watching us. We better watch what we're doing, because
we don't have to just tide from the cops. The
neighbors are going to call us in if we're doing
something wrong. So he tried to use his little tactic

(01:06:48):
kid learned in the gang Unit. So he did that
and he starts questioning them and during the conversations, one
of the girls says, well, money here is trying trying
to pimp us out, and you know, we're.

Speaker 1 (01:07:00):
Just talking to him and yeah, he's a pamp. We
know he's a pan of blah blah blah.

Speaker 4 (01:07:04):
And Daniel asked Gardener to He asked everyone to see
their ID and he asked for Gardener, and Gardener didn't
have an idea on her and he gave She gave
a you know, a name and identifying information, and come
to find out, it was all of her identifying information.
Daniel didn't necessarily believe that she was who she said
she was, and she may even someone hiding from a
Fellony Warren or something. But he gets a call to

(01:07:26):
go somewhere else, so he leaves. He goes on and
he goes on to another call, and then a few
hours later comes back, lo and behold, there's Gardener again
out on the side of the street, kind of doing
her thing. Looks like she's probably prostituting it's in an
area of town that has a lot of street prostitution
that goes on. She has a history of prostitution, and

(01:07:48):
so he stops her again and he says, you know,
I still don't believe you are who you say you are.
And she goes, well, I am, and I'm staying with
my mom and she lives right around the corner here,
and I can prove that it's me, and I'm just
heading home right now.

Speaker 1 (01:08:00):
I'm walking home.

Speaker 4 (01:08:00):
He goes, oh, good, Well, if you're already heading home
and it's dark and this is a bad part of
town and you're not out prostituting, hop in. I'll take
you home and we'll verify who you are. And she
said okay. So she gets in the car. They drive
literally it's you just round the corner and they pull
up into a house and she gets out and she goes, oh,
my mom's car's not here. Her mom's drives at the time,

(01:08:20):
drove one of those trucks arounding it. They sell meat
door to door. They I don't know if you all
have them. So your pork chops and steaks, stuff like
that out of the back of a.

Speaker 3 (01:08:29):
Truck, but three times the price that we can get
it at it's three times the price you get in
the store, right, right, and.

Speaker 4 (01:08:36):
No telling how long it's been around. But whatever, No,
I'm not going to disparage, you know, anyone that's out
there doing that or whatever. So she says she's not here,
and Dange's like, well, that's convenient.

Speaker 1 (01:08:45):
So how do I know you are who you say
you are?

Speaker 4 (01:08:49):
And she goes, oh, and I don't have a key,
because he's like, well, can you go inside and get
your ID or get something that shows who you are? Yeah,
I don't have a key on me either, so I
don't have an idea. I don't have a key the
house you brought me to, Supposedly there's nobody here. They
didn't knock her anything, And she says at this point
they're up by the door, because that's where she realizes,
oh oops, I don't.

Speaker 1 (01:09:08):
Have a key.

Speaker 4 (01:09:09):
And she claims that Daniel at that point bent her
over on the on the porch in front of her
house and raped her right there, vaginally raped her, and
then just got in his car and drove away. And
then the interesting twist of this was later on that evening,
Adare's mother says it was around three am. We'll come

(01:09:31):
to find out it was only really about eleven pm.
Daniel calls because Daniel Daniel says that, well, when I
dropped her off, because I didn't know what I was
supposed to do, I couldn't just sit there and babysitter
until somebody showed up, he said. So I sat there
for a few minutes and I told her, I said, well,
I'm going to verify that you are who you are
and if I see you again, and you lied, and
this really isn't your house and those things you know,
you're you're going to go to jail. And she's like, no,

(01:09:52):
it really is me. And come to find out, she
was being honest. And so Daniel drove away. And then
that evening he drives by the house. He's on patrol
and he's where he's supposed to be. He drives around
and he sees there's lights on in the house. There's
now car out front, so he runs the address. A
contact telephone number pops up and that happens to be
Gardner's mother, and so he dials a number and when

(01:10:16):
she answers the phone, he says, this is Daniel holtz
Claw and Oakleman see police officer is here in Adaria
Gardner that lives there, and the mom assumes that this
is a guy, a police officer calling for her seventeen
year old daughter, because the daughter has said, and I'll
actually play this, you can hear it here in a second,
this was a really odd thing. Mom gets home that night,

(01:10:36):
Adara claims that she's just been forcefully raped by a
police officer on the porch of her own house, and
her mother says that when she gets home, first thing
her daughter says, tor is, hey, mom, I met this
really hot cop today who describes their rapist as the
really hot cop they met today. And so all mom

(01:10:57):
here is is my daughter met this really hot cop
who dropped her off at her house. Well, then eleven
o'clock at night, a cop calls an ass if Adera
Gardner lives there. Well, Daniel says he was calling to
see if there truly wasn't Adarak Gardner that lived there,
and he wanted to share with the mother that well,
if she gave her real identity, She's only seventeen and
she's hanging out with non pimps and known prostitutes. This

(01:11:17):
is not a good thing. Well, the mom admits that
she doesn't let Daniel explain himself. As soon as he
says there's an Ada Gardner live there, she says, don't
you be calling my daughter anymore? And for whatever reason,
throughout this, this is a recorded interview that she has
with the police. With the detective, she keeps saying their
daughter's thirteen. I don't know why she keeps saying her
daughter's thirteen. I guess she doesn't know the age of

(01:11:38):
her own daughter. But her daughter was seventeen. And then
just hangs up on Daniel and she admits, I don't
even let him respond, but.

Speaker 1 (01:11:45):
Real quick, let me. I've got it cued up here.
I'll play the audio.

Speaker 4 (01:11:48):
This is a telephone conversation that occurred between sex crimes
detective Kim Davis and the mother of Adara Gardner, Amanda Gates.

Speaker 1 (01:11:57):
And this is just a portion of their tell a
phone call.

Speaker 5 (01:12:02):
Okay and so, and you didn't see anybody bring her home?

Speaker 1 (01:12:07):
No?

Speaker 5 (01:12:07):
I did not. Okay, what did your daughter tell you?

Speaker 1 (01:12:10):
She said, I make this really hot cop. He told
me I had a couple of warmans.

Speaker 5 (01:12:15):
He said, don't worry about it.

Speaker 6 (01:12:17):
Give me his number and we're.

Speaker 3 (01:12:18):
Gonna go out on the day.

Speaker 5 (01:12:19):
She really nice me then calling me.

Speaker 1 (01:12:26):
I just looked at shes casey, I really see that
an affair, because.

Speaker 5 (01:12:32):
No, I didn't.

Speaker 1 (01:12:32):
Then I wasn't expecting the cop to really call it dead.

Speaker 5 (01:12:35):
Why did she give him your number? Is? Does she
not have a phone?

Speaker 1 (01:12:41):
Oh, she's not her phone.

Speaker 5 (01:12:44):
Did she warn you he's going to be calling your phone?
You just get a phone call?

Speaker 1 (01:12:50):
She tell me that we're gonna talk and go out.

Speaker 5 (01:12:52):
No, I just got came off when you entered the
phone at two in the morning. I mean, what do
you what do you say?

Speaker 1 (01:13:04):
He said?

Speaker 10 (01:13:05):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:13:05):
He said he was the officer.

Speaker 5 (01:13:09):
Find himself as an officer.

Speaker 1 (01:13:12):
He wanted to talk to there.

Speaker 6 (01:13:15):
I well, she's only thirteen, and he talked to.

Speaker 1 (01:13:19):
Her like that.

Speaker 5 (01:13:20):
I didn't you know.

Speaker 10 (01:13:20):
I didn't.

Speaker 5 (01:13:21):
I had no clue.

Speaker 1 (01:13:22):
In cough, I didn't know, and I may not be.
So there you go.

Speaker 4 (01:13:28):
So, like I said, who in their right mind describes
the rapists as the hot cop they're going to go
out with?

Speaker 5 (01:13:34):
It was?

Speaker 4 (01:13:35):
She claims that holtz Claw that that Adara gave holtz
Claw her mother's cell phone number, which doesn't make any sense.
Daniel has always said that well, no, he didn't get
a phone number from her. He pulled up and ran
the address, and a phone, you know, a contact number
pops up for that address because the police have had
contact there before. And he saw that it was the
mother the person you know it's a rent house, but

(01:13:55):
the person who's supposed to be there, and that's what
he called. And that he didn't call and say, hey,
can I talked to Derek Gardner? He called and said,
is there an a Derek Gardner that lives there?

Speaker 3 (01:14:04):
Probably?

Speaker 4 (01:14:04):
See how you could take that as I'm asking to
talk to that person. But he's trying to verify whether
or not this person really lives there or not.

Speaker 3 (01:14:10):
Okay, now he's saying that he pulled up her got
the mother's cell phone number on a rental homes database.
Now you and we both use those databases, right, and
you know that that would be very difficult to come
up with a cell phone number someone with the I
saw a picture of that house too. Then they're not
They don't have a lot of good credit, these folks,
you know what I mean?

Speaker 4 (01:14:30):
Well, it doesn't isn't the same database that you and
I would have access to.

Speaker 1 (01:14:34):
It's not a TLO or any of those sorts of databases.

Speaker 4 (01:14:37):
It's their own internal database that only is available on
their on their mobile data terminals, and you bring it
in and what it does is it brings up you
type in a person's name, you get all kinds of
notes about them. I've seen the one for myself. I
was allowed to take a cell phone picture of it.
It's kind of entertaining. And then you do an address,
or you do a person. It tells you all their

(01:14:57):
street names, all their known associates, things like that. You
type in an address, it'll tell you all contacts that
police have had with that. It'll say people that have
resided there, will give you all of their contact information.

Speaker 1 (01:15:08):
It's just part of their intel that they have. So
actually it would be very calm.

Speaker 4 (01:15:12):
You could go up and down the street and type
in anyone's address and if there's been any police contact
or anything there before, you're going to have the most
recent contact. That's how they go look for people during warrants,
all those sorts of things, so that that completely jibs
with what and they didn't. They didn't question that series
of events because that would make sense. What to me

(01:15:33):
may really stood out was her describing him as a
hot cop, mom admitting she never even allowed Daniel to
explain while he was calling. He was simply calling to
see does this seventeen year old actually live there. It
certainly wouldn't make sense for an officer to call and
be trying to have a sexual liaison one with someone
that he raped on the front porch that she's now
describing as hot, or to ask this girl out again

(01:15:57):
if you know, knowing that she's underage and that he isn't.
None of those details made sense. And a couple of
things you also have to understand. Background wise, Adara wasn't
being raised by her mother. Adara was just in town
visiting at the time. She spent an awful lot of
time in Detroit and in other cities. She had a
long documented history of being involved in prostitution where's based

(01:16:19):
on her age, it would actually be considered a human
trafficking victim because she was under eighteen, so she couldn't
even consent to the crime of prostitution. But regardless of
all of and she's had numerous arrests. She's had arrest
for breaking into a man's house and attacking him with
a machete, so this is a woman. You've got to
be very careful about what she says. So you just
got to look at her actions around this event, and

(01:16:41):
those actions do not support that that she was a
sexual assault victim.

Speaker 1 (01:16:45):
But then people go back to the DNA.

Speaker 3 (01:16:47):
No, no way, wait beforecriminating DNA. And I got to
tell you, wait, wait, Brian, before we get to the DNA.
This thing about the cell phone again, Now, has this
been because she's claiming she gave the number and he claiming, no,
I looked it up in his database. Has this been duplicated?
Have we been able to find out if it's in
this database? Has anybody tried to look there see if
it's in there.

Speaker 4 (01:17:07):
I would have to go back onto the on the
transcripts and see. I know it didn't really become an
issue one way or the other because either yes, he
could have pulled it up by just running the address
and finding out who was there through police systems, or
he could have insisted from a Derrick Gardner, I want
to make sure this really is this house, and this
really is you? What's the contact phone number? And you

(01:17:28):
know it could have gone that way too. That's not
how I was told that that Daniel recalled it at
the time. Either way, both scenarios to me make perfect sense.
Either insisting on a phone number so that because you're
a minor, so I can make contact with with the
adult that lives here to find out why this miner
is kind of running free with known pimps and drug dealers,

(01:17:50):
or that you enter the the enter the address into
the database and it tells you who to contact. To me,
either one's fine. It certainly wouldn't make sense that he
would raper on the front. She'd say he's this really
hot cop, and then he'd be calling intentionally knowing he's
going to now get the miner's mother and he would
identify himself as a cop and try to talk to her. Now,

(01:18:10):
had he called and not identified himself as a police officer,
had he used a phone number not associated to him
in his patrol car, then yes, that that would have
been problematic.

Speaker 1 (01:18:20):
But that's that's not how it happened.

Speaker 3 (01:18:22):
Okay, But it sounds like from her point of view,
then this was from a person who has been human trafficked,
like you said, since a very young age, that she
would have low self esteem.

Speaker 1 (01:18:40):
What I to come back to is the you got
to take all the waifs out of.

Speaker 4 (01:18:44):
It, because there's just simply no evidence to show any
of the any of the white ifs. What we do
know is that by the time police made contact with
a Derek I mean, this wasn't immediately after that it happened.
I mean, Adara Gardner claims that this all happened back
in June of fourteen. She wasn't contacted until or the

(01:19:06):
mother wasn't contacted. It wasn't identified and contacted until October
of fourteen. At that time of Era wasn't at home.
She didn't spend very much time the news at this point.

(01:19:33):
Then her daughter calls in and says, Yep, I'm one
of those victims too. It's all very convenient because you
have to keep in mind the police had to go
out and find all of these accusers, all of these
alleged victims, the police, they had to go out and
find them.

Speaker 3 (01:19:48):
Okay, so the police would had suspend, you know, they
wanted to find more victims. They contacted these the Gardner family,
and then they googled it and they saw, oh, we
have these these accusations and just Quinn. Incidentally, they just
happen to have this old background of some kind of
attraction or contact with each other on that porch, and
you know what I'm saying, man, And then there was

(01:20:09):
her DNA was found on.

Speaker 4 (01:20:11):
His zipper, right, And that, to me, that was the
most compelling evidence against Daniel. And it was one of
the reasons that the whole time I worked on the case,
which you have to understand, I wasn't his defense lawyer.
I was an investigator, really hired by the defense attorney
to try to figure out what Daniel was telling the
truth about and what he might be lying about, because
a lot of people don't realize that criminal defendants lie

(01:20:33):
to their defense team all the time, and the worst
thing you want to do is be lied to and
set yourself up to step into a trap at trial.
And the DNA was one of those things I kept
telling Daniel, I don't know an awful lot about DNA,
and so this is one that really bothers me. It
was only two weeks before trial that we met with
the DNA expert, and the DNA expert looked over the
DNA test, looked over the testimony, and said, this DNA

(01:20:55):
evidence means absolutely nothing. In several DNA experts now have
come forward after the fact, we've reviewed the DNA evidence
and said, this is a problem that we face in
today's CSI society, where we watched CSI too much and
we see DNA and we think it's saying something that
it's not.

Speaker 1 (01:21:13):
And that's what Daniel ran into.

Speaker 4 (01:21:15):
Well, I didn't know anything about DNA or the different
types of DNA, But what ends up getting testified to
even by the prosecution, was that the DNA evidence was
simply skin cells. She claims that she was bent over
and vaginally raped. Even the prosecution admitted the DNA expert
Elaine Taylor, that there was no indications of any bodily fluids,

(01:21:37):
There was no indications of semen, there was no indications
of saliva, there was no indications of vaginal fluids anywhere,
and that the DNA that was present on the zipper
and the DNA present on the zipper was in such
small amounts that they actually found more DNA belonging to
Daniel on just a door handle of a car where
you literally touch it for a second than they found

(01:21:59):
on the zipper, and that it was simply skin cells
that could have come from any part of your body. Well,
I still think of all the places where it ended
up your zippers, a pretty bizarre place for that to happen.

Speaker 1 (01:22:09):
That's what's going on through my mind. DNA expert pointed,
I said, well, here's the problem with it.

Speaker 4 (01:22:14):
They didn't test anywhere but the zipper, So for all
we know, her DNA was inside of his pockets, her
DNA was on the cuff of his pants. Her DNA
could have been anywhere that Daniel would have touched. Because
one of the things that did stick out was from
the reports. When Daniel stopped the three individuals, a gardener,
the other female in the pimp. He patted everybody down

(01:22:35):
and by Gardner's own admission, she was wearing this little
crop top kind of thing. She had skin that was exposed.
The male officers are allowed to pat the women down.
They do it, you know, they have a certain procedure
they have to follow, but they can make hand, you know,
skin to skin.

Speaker 1 (01:22:48):
Contact with them. Patted them down.

Speaker 4 (01:22:51):
But then Daniel also and Derek Gardner admitted to this
a trial. Daniel spent a lot of time going through
her purse looking for contraband. She had combs inside there.
She had many personal items that would have had her
DNA on them, and his hands are all over those items. Now,
at any point Daniel goes to as guys will do,
adjust himself, goes to use the restroom, goes to do

(01:23:14):
any of those sorts of things, any DNA that could
be on his hand could be transferred, and they call
it transfer DNA or touch DNA. The one thing that
bothers me the most and should bother people when this
thing came to trial, two things bothered me. One, Elaine
Taylor testified to an awful lot of things about the DNA.
She was the state's DNA expert for the police Department.

(01:23:34):
One thing that she never bothered to disclose was that
she was the mother in law of lead investigator Rocky Gregory.
She never says that, oh, I may have a little
conflict here because the second lead investigator is my son
in law.

Speaker 1 (01:23:48):
We thought that was a little problematic.

Speaker 4 (01:23:49):
But the big thing scientifically was she testified that they
found this girl's DNA on there. But what she didn't
testify to and what her test clearly show, and it's
part of Daniel's appeal, is that she also found DNA
belonging to other people on the fly of Daniel's pants males,
and that she testified that Daniel was excluded as being

(01:24:12):
one of the contributors. So she testified that another male's
DNA was also on the zipper of his pants.

Speaker 1 (01:24:18):
And she testified she had excluded Daniel. It wasn't him.

Speaker 4 (01:24:21):
So if you're going to cling to the DNA of
Adaria Gardner being on his zipper proves that he sexually
assaulted her, then you also have to assert that I
guess he also raped some man that never came forward,
And I think people would have to admit your starting
to look a little desperate at that point. I don't
know a lot about DNA, but I know I educated
myself on it. When you start googling touch DNA or

(01:24:43):
transferred DNA, it is really scary. There have been instances
where individuals were charged with crimes and come to find
out they were never at the scene, they never touched
the murder weapon. But if you and I shake hands
and then I go pick up a gun, there is
a relatively good chance your DNA is on that gun
and you've never even seen that gun before. That's how

(01:25:05):
specific and precise DNA testing has become at this point.
It didn't used to be that specific and precise, but
it is now, and they never admitted to that. And
what was scary was the jurors admitted later that they
were actually ready to acquit Daniel Holtzklack because there simply
wasn't any direct evidence. But it was the DNA that

(01:25:25):
really convinced them that something must have happened. And the
problem with that came with the prosecutor, Assistant District Attorney
Galen Gigger. The very last thing he was allowed to
say to the jury before they went back to deliberate
was he specifically said that that DNA came from the
vaginal walls of a seventeen year old and that's how

(01:25:46):
it got on his zipper. And that is not as
what was testified to their own DNA experts said there
was no presence of vaginal fluid, semen or any other fluids,
and that that DNA was simply skin.

Speaker 1 (01:25:57):
Cells vaginal DNA.

Speaker 4 (01:26:04):
And I guess assume somebody would object at that point,
but it's closing argument, so you get a lot of leeway.
And they admitted later that it was a DNA testimony
that convicted you.

Speaker 3 (01:26:13):
Okay, we got to take a commercial break. Okay, because
we're with Brian Bates, private investigator. We're talking about the
Daniel holtz Claw case and you'll find it at holts
Claw Trial dot com. If you just tuned in, keep
an eye out for Daniel's podcast and be coming up.
You can find that at holts Claw Trial dot com
and also to if you need a PI over there
in Oklahoma check out the real quick what is this

(01:26:35):
there again? Bates Investigates, b A. T Ees Investigates dot com.
We'll be right back after these messages with more Brian
Bates and the Daniel holtz Claw.

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Speaker 3 (01:31:02):
Okay, welcome back to the Operaman Report. We're here with
Brian Bates Private Investigating. We're talking about the Daniel holtzklaw case.
So now, Brian, I got I'm confused about something here
because we talked about he had the Ligands accusation and
he was pulled. He was pulled off patrol right after
that allegation, right, all right, that.

Speaker 4 (01:31:20):
The afternoon of the eighteenth, he was he was they
took well, actually, and if you watch the interrogation online,
they took his badge, they took his gun, they took
his clothes from him. He took his pants off during
the interview because those are the same pants that he
had on, which is interesting. The pants they found the
DNA on were the pants that he had on. Now,

(01:31:40):
she claims that she was raped on the seventeenth, which
would have been you know, he had a shift that
started on the seventeenth into two am on the eighteenth.
They're claiming that he sexually assaulted three women on his
final shift. Then he sexually assaulted a Daria Gardner who's
a seventeen year old, a woman by the name of
Kayla Lyles, and Janie Liggins, a grandmother, all three within

(01:32:00):
one shift. They take his pants and yet they find
the DNA of a dere gardner, but it's skin cell DNA.
They find no evidence of any sexual fluids on his
pants at all, but they don't find DNA from the
other two alleged victims. And something else that I found interesting.
Even though he offers it up, he says, I'll do anything.
I'll take a light detector, you can search anything, do

(01:32:22):
whatever you got to do. They don't even go to
his apartment and grab his He has three more changes
of uniform. They don't even take his underwear. They think
this guy is a serial rapist, and they let him
keep his underwear on. They don't take him They don't
go to his house and get into his dirty clothes
hamper to get other clothes that he had on or
other underwear so they can try to find more DNA.

(01:32:43):
They don't take his cell phone to examine it. They
don't take his computers to try to examine them. They
don't do any of those things that you would assume
just would be police work.

Speaker 6 (01:32:52):
One oh one, oh boy.

Speaker 1 (01:32:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:32:55):
But I tell you, man, he might have gotten lucky
because listen, you know, if you're a claiming okay, it's
so common to get you. You'll pull somebody over on
a traffic stop and you get their DNA and your zipper,
then he would have all these women's DNA on his
zipper and his underwear and his socks, now, wouldn't he
He's saying, man, my guy.

Speaker 4 (01:33:13):
Just like I pointed out, Yeah, and then you also
get mailed DNA there too, So you either got to
decide does that mean he has male victims?

Speaker 1 (01:33:20):
Or are you willing to concede?

Speaker 4 (01:33:22):
It's just very common to pass DNA around when you
come into contact with DNA because you come into physical
contact with people all day long. Are you saying he
had male and female victims? Are you willing to admit
that DNA simply is transferred a whole lot easier than
the general public understands.

Speaker 3 (01:33:37):
No, DNA is transmitted a lot easier than the general
public understands. I'll absolutely say that. But now are you
trying to tell me, though, that you believe that. I'm
not saying he deserves two hundred years or a life
sentence for his contact with this traffic seventeen year old,
but do you believe it is contact back and forth
with his seventeen year old picking her up off the street.
On a second contact with her driving her home, having

(01:33:59):
some kind of where she feels that she went to
the extreme effort of telling them that I just met
a hot cop who wants to date me, then calling
the home there and then all of this activity with
a seventeen year old. You find that appropriate, Well, I think,
well I didn't. There certainly wasn't anything illegal about what
was being said. I could certainly see a seventeen year old.

(01:34:19):
If you get Daniel Holtzklaw, who is a big guy,
a big good looking guy, he stops, he's he probably
was acting friendly with her, trying to get her to
feel comfortable with him and share some additional information and details,
and she thinks, you know, he's a good looking guy.
And she spent the better part of her young life,
you know, involved in sexual activities, either either consensually or

(01:34:41):
non consensually, and so she probably she may have perceived him,
most women probably perceived him as a good looking guy.
But to try to think that she was raped and
then referred to him as a hot cop, and that
she gave out her mother's phone number to him, and
he called her mother, knowing that she's a miner, to
try to talk.

Speaker 1 (01:34:59):
To he her None of those things makes sense at all.

Speaker 4 (01:35:04):
And when Daniel wasn't able to explain himself, because she
even admits I just hung up on him as soon
as she as soon as he said, doesn't Adrek Gardner
live there? You know, it didn't give a chance for
him too, even to defend himself. But what there isn't
present is there is not any evidence that a sexual
assault occurred. And of course we've talked about two of
the thirteen that leaves eleven. But of those two, Janie Liggins,

(01:35:25):
he received twenty one years for her accusations, not a
shred of evidence that a crime was committed. Many of
her details didn't match Daniel's details, but Daniels held up
under the scrutiny of forensic examination. Yet he's still got
twenty one years a Derek Gardner, which there was DNA present,
but the DNA was simply skin cell DNA, And she's
referring to her supposed rapist as a hot cop. Never

(01:35:48):
claims that she's been raped until they google him find
out that he's accused of raping somebody. He gets fifty
years from her. But that's not the one that should
blow your mind.

Speaker 3 (01:35:57):
Before we get to that last one. Let me just
test it is. Now, this is a cop who has
twenty twelve aggressive cop complaints against them in twenty four months. Okay,
And now he's talking to his mother. He's calling into
according to him, to investigate this girl, to find out
what to warn the mother, and the mother just says,
I don't want to talk to you. I'm hanging up,
and this aggressive cop doesn't call back and say, wait

(01:36:19):
a minute, hold on, this is a police investigation. I
need to talk to you. I'm coming over there right now.

Speaker 4 (01:36:24):
Well, it wasn't a police investigation. She hadn't committed any crime.
He simply wanted to verify that the person that was
giving him the identifying information, that's who that person was,
and if it was, he simply wanted to inform the
mother that your minor daughter is running around with people
that I know to be pimson prostitutes. And it either
needed to serve as a warning or the mom would

(01:36:44):
be like, some of your damn business who my daughter
runs around with?

Speaker 1 (01:36:47):
I don't know.

Speaker 4 (01:36:48):
Earlier that day, something we didn't talk about. Earlier that day,
the mother had had a confrontation with their daughter because
she had just reported her daughter as a runaway for
the umpteenth time. She remarked to the police officer. She
runs away all the time. She ran away that day,
where did her mother go to? Looking for on the
stroll where all the street prostitutes are, So she drove
over to the south part of town, another area where

(01:37:10):
there's lots of prostitution, and she assumed her mother wouldn't
find her.

Speaker 1 (01:37:13):
Her mother drives down.

Speaker 4 (01:37:14):
There, sees her daughter out on the street South Robinson,
most likely prostituting, confronts her daughter.

Speaker 1 (01:37:20):
Her daughter hits her in the face.

Speaker 4 (01:37:22):
Mother calls police and says, I want to report my
daughter as a runaway because she's a miner, and I
want to report that she assaulted me. She signs a
ticket for assault and battery against her daughter. At trial
under oath, her mother denies all of it, denies everything. No,
we didn't get into a confrontation. No she didn't hit me, ma'am.
Here's a ticket you signed. Oh, I didn't know what
I was signing, ma'am. At the top it says really

(01:37:44):
big domestic assault and battery.

Speaker 1 (01:37:46):
Yeah, I didn't.

Speaker 4 (01:37:47):
I don't remember signing that. I don't think I ever did.
Her mother is not to be trusted or believed. Obviously,
the daughter has a troubled pass, so there's no telling
how she's perceiving things or what she might have thought. Daniel,
A guy being nice to her, what does that mean?
Oh is he flirting with me? Or oh is he
just being nice to me? But I don't think under
any stretch of the imagination you describe your rapist as

(01:38:08):
a hot cop. And then you have a mother that
signs domestic assault and battery complaints against her own daughter
and then goes into a court and doesn't care that
she's under oath and says, no, it didn't happen, even
though her signature is on the complaint from that day. Again,
when you dealing with cases that don't have any direct
forensic evidence, don't have any witnesses, the only thing you

(01:38:30):
can rely on is credibility, and they've yet to produce
a single credible witness.

Speaker 1 (01:38:36):
And again, like I was saying, the one that should
blow your mind.

Speaker 3 (01:38:39):
Before we get to that, and I want to get
to it. But what about polygraphs? Were there any polygraphs
in this investigation?

Speaker 1 (01:38:44):
Daniel?

Speaker 4 (01:38:45):
As you see if you watch the interrogation video, he
offered to do a polygraph and said he would do one,
and they said they weren't prepared to give him one
on that day.

Speaker 1 (01:38:52):
Well as soon as he leaves.

Speaker 4 (01:38:53):
He is because he's part of the Paternal Order of Police,
he initially became under there legal guidance. And when they
contacted the FOP for him to do a polygraph exam,
their attorney of Susan Knight I believe is their name,
she said, no, we don't allow any police officers to
do polygraph tests. We don't allow them to do them.
And Daniel didn't know about this. He wasn't told about

(01:39:16):
it till later when we got the case when he
hired private counsel because the FOP stopped representing him. When
he got private counsel, we offered him up for a
light detector and said, no, we'll give him a light
detector under the conditions that any of the accusers that
he passes, whether it's one of them or all of them,
you drop the charges associated with that accuser. And the

(01:39:37):
prosecutor would not agree to that. And I know why
the prosecutor wouldn't agree to it's Galen Gigger. He knows
that mister Adams, the attorney he's not going to offer
somebody up for a light detector if he thinks that
they're going to fail, and he didn't want to get
into an agreement with this high profile case. All of
a sudden falls apart in front of him because the
defendant passes a light detector. And people can say whatever
they want about light detectors, but they're used routinely and

(01:39:59):
long enforcement. Daniel had to take one before he got
on the force. Our county routinely uses light detectors to
decide whether or not they're going to file charges against somebody,
regardless of their admissibility in a courtroom. And when we
got ready for trial and we offered Daniel up for
a light detector, and they said no, it's because they
feared the results of that light detector.

Speaker 1 (01:40:19):
We did not.

Speaker 3 (01:40:20):
But none of the victims either took a light detector.

Speaker 4 (01:40:22):
No, and they would There'd be no expectation for a
sexual assault victim or accuser to take a light detector test,
so that was never even offered to them.

Speaker 3 (01:40:30):
Okay, we got fifteen minutes. I know you want to
sum it up as good as you can in fifteen minutes.

Speaker 4 (01:40:35):
The last case, a couple of key things people need
to understand. One is accuser Sherry Ellis. And the whole
reason I point her out is because Daniel received the
most number of years from her allegations alone. He got
sixty two years. That in itself is a life sentence.
He got sixty two years. What's key to note about
her is she told the police very specifically, and I'm
getting ready to play the audio clip. She told police

(01:40:57):
that her rapist was a short black man.

Speaker 1 (01:41:02):
Short black man.

Speaker 4 (01:41:03):
Daniel is six foot two, pale white in complexion, and
she swears at her attacker is a short black male. Also,
for anyone who's ever attended a trial, there's always this
procedural thing where they say, can you pick out the
defendant the person who committed the crime against you?

Speaker 1 (01:41:18):
And it's a no brainer.

Speaker 4 (01:41:19):
It's it's the guy in handcuffs, sweating his ass off,
sitting over there in the corner. She looks around the
court room and says, no, I cannot still sixty two years.
I want you to hear this clip real quick in
case anyone that doubts me this is her. She's in
an interrogation room and she's talking to Detective Kim Davis.

Speaker 10 (01:41:37):
Let me ask you this, will you give me tell
me your description of him? He's okay, he's flat man, muscular, muscular.

Speaker 5 (01:41:49):
How tall could you tell? I? See? You're pretty tall?
How tall are you?

Speaker 8 (01:41:58):
How tall are you?

Speaker 5 (01:41:59):
Five elevens?

Speaker 1 (01:42:01):
He taller than your shoulders anywhere right here?

Speaker 5 (01:42:03):
Maybe dead? So you take his shoulders in you?

Speaker 4 (01:42:07):
Yeah, okay, there you go. It's a black mail. She's
five to eleven and he's shorter than her. It's a
short black mail. Daniel's several inches taller than her and
pale and complexion, and he gets a life sentence the
most number of years based on her claim alone. And
here's the other thing about it. Everyone wants to talk
about the GPS or what's actually referred to as the AVL,

(01:42:30):
and that's the GPS within the patrol car.

Speaker 1 (01:42:33):
She was stopped while she was walking on the street,
and she admits that.

Speaker 4 (01:42:37):
She had an eye to eye, face to face conversation
with Daniel.

Speaker 1 (01:42:41):
Daniel ran her like he ran so many other women.

Speaker 4 (01:42:44):
And she had warrants, but they're misdemeanor warrants. They weren't
for new crimes. They were for not paying your ticket.
You get arrested, you're supposed to pay a jail fee,
and you got to pay a ticket and some court costs,
and virtually nobody on the north east side of town
does those sorts of things. So they admitted everyone's got
these warrants that are walking around out there. But Daniel
uses that an opportunity of can you tell me you know,

(01:43:05):
I see you got these warrants.

Speaker 1 (01:43:06):
But it's no big deal. We can let him go.

Speaker 4 (01:43:08):
What's the drug activity? Who are the big players? Where
the drug houses on this part of town? She says,
like so many other people, I can't be seen out
here talking to you about stuff. I will be branded
a snitch. Bad things happen to snitch snitches. Daniels says, fine,
get in the car, So she gets in the car.
They start driving. She starts telling him things, but Daniel's like,
it's all the drug houses, the drug houses we all

(01:43:29):
know about. It's the drug houses that were closed down
three or four months ago. This information's no good. He
drives past a it's a they call it the abandoned
school yard, but it's actually where a school used to be,
and it's now a public park with actually some pretty
nice equipment on it. He lets her out and he
goes on. She claims that no, they had the conversation.
He puts her in the car, he drives her to

(01:43:49):
the abandoned school. He parks his car, he gets her
out of the car, he bends her over, he sexually
assaults her.

Speaker 1 (01:43:56):
Then he tells her she can go.

Speaker 4 (01:43:58):
The problem is the GPS or the AVL in his
car does not match that story. It shows him pulling
up and stopping. He radios her in. He's not trying
to hide it. It's part of the radio traffic.

Speaker 1 (01:44:09):
He calls her in.

Speaker 4 (01:44:10):
That's how he finds out that she's got some warrants.
Then it shows him driving through the park area and
proceeding on. He never stops his car. At no time
does a GPS give a zero speed reading. So there
was at no time that he stopped his car and
bent her over and sexually assaulted her.

Speaker 1 (01:44:28):
But none of that seemed to matter.

Speaker 4 (01:44:29):
It didn't seem to matter with the jury that he's
not short, he's not black, and the GPS doesn't match.

Speaker 1 (01:44:34):
They gave him sixty two years anyway.

Speaker 3 (01:44:37):
But there was a second victim who mentioned that same
park right.

Speaker 4 (01:44:40):
He was an additional victim, Kayla Lyles, which was the
third of that last and he was found not guilty.

Speaker 1 (01:44:45):
Of that assault. Really yep, and it was just what's weird?

Speaker 4 (01:44:49):
And I'll admit this is a bizarre. This is what
tells me that I don't care what the jury says.
They didn't take this case seriously. They were afraid about
the chanting. They were afraid of the fact that we
literally had black panthers showing up in full military uniform
sitting in the audience. They openly talked about what's going
to happen if we acquit this guy. They're going to
burn the city down. They were literally chanting outside the window,

(01:45:12):
giving life, give him life. During the trial, this is
going on, and one of the legal observers commented that
even when the judge told the jury, oh, disregard those
the chanting going out on outside the window, it was
like throwing a skunk into the room and telling people
not to smell it.

Speaker 1 (01:45:29):
All of this is going on, and the jury.

Speaker 4 (01:45:32):
Was absolutely petrified what was going to happen if they
found him guilty. So they literally, as the lead prosecutor
even said, they split the baby. They took the thirty
six counts, they divided him in half. Wherever they falls
wherever they fall. In the Kayla Lyles case, and I'll
get into this on my podcast in depth, but in
that case, it was a frustrating one because there just
wasn't much evidence there at all. It was just this

(01:45:53):
stop that happened. She claimed she was taken to this
abandoned school yard and she was raped. Well, the GPS
actually shows that he was in that abandoned school yard
and that his vehicle actually did come to a zero
speed and actually did stop. But the jury said not guilty.
There wasn't anything that proved or disproved it. Not guilty.
You got a woman saying all these terrible things happened

(01:46:14):
to her, but he's a short black man and we
stopped here. But the GPS says that you really didn't
stop there. But he's guilty of that one, and we're
going to give him life. To me, what that proved
that the jury did not take their obligation seriously in
that court room.

Speaker 3 (01:46:29):
You know, I watched the Michelle Malcolm yes, you right,
and now she makes a big point of that Black
Lives Matter was outside put it looked like twenty five
people out there protesting that there were every day.

Speaker 4 (01:46:43):
It was different different times of the day, it was different.
There was a lot of people out the courtroom, and
we were in a pretty decent sized courtroom was packed.
They would turn people away. People were packed out. If
you saw any of the photos, people were pushing and
shoving them their way in. People were caught taking photos
of the jurors during the trial. You only take pictures
of jurors for one reason. You take a picture of

(01:47:03):
a juror because you're trying to intimidate them. You're trying
to let them know if you don't come back with
a verdict that we want, we will find out who
you are.

Speaker 6 (01:47:12):
Now.

Speaker 3 (01:47:12):
Michelle Malkin, she has a background of anti immigration. She's
very much against Black Lives Matter. Now, do you have
an opinion on that kind of thing or do you
have a bias toward Black Lives Matter?

Speaker 4 (01:47:23):
Well, no, it isn't even something that if someone said,
you know, try to detail Black Lives Matter in the movement,
I probably couldn't give you a very accurate one because
it isn't anything I've ever been involved in. I certainly
can say this. People who know me locally know I
am not a cheerleader of police. Matter of fact, the
very first thing Daniel said to me when I walked
in the room and introduced myself is he looked up

(01:47:45):
and he kind of smirked. Kind of a cocky guy
looked up and smirked and said, I know who you are.
They taught us about you at the academy. I'm someone
that the police does not look at as a friend.
So to say that Daniel and I were very unlikely
ally eyes, that's an understatement. I'm not someone who cheer
leads the police. I have filed several grievances with the police.

(01:48:06):
Every single time those grievances are found in my favor
unless I don't have it recorded, which is the magic thing.
If it's on tape and it's indisputable, it's in your favor.
If it's not on tape, it's never going to be
in your favor. So yes, I certainly think that there
are parts of the Black Lives Matter movement about violence
against minorities and all I think are extremely valid. I

(01:48:27):
think when you're showing up to a courtroom wearing military
uniforms and you're outside the window yelling giving life instead
of letting the judicial process play out, that I don't
care whose lives. You say that matter, you're disrespecting the
process and you're not allowing somebody a fair shot at justice.

Speaker 3 (01:48:44):
What's the hope we'll getting a new trial you and
what would you base it on. Were there any errors
that that you get an appeeal.

Speaker 4 (01:48:50):
Well, you know, I think there were some pretty big errors.
I think one of the biggest errors was in the
DA Here's what you have to look at. You could
eliminate four or five or two or three whatever of
the accusers he was found guilty of, and he would
still have enough years that it makes it a life sentence.

Speaker 1 (01:49:05):
And really what you have to appeal on. You have
to appeal on.

Speaker 4 (01:49:08):
Things that affected each and every one of the accusers.
And I think the DNA is that. And I think
that that's played out because the jurors have come forward
and say it was a DNA testimony that most convinced
them that Daniel must have done something. So I think
where the appeal stands the best chance is where they
can show that one Elaine Taylor is a direct relative
of one of the investigators, so therefore she was exposed

(01:49:31):
to an awful lot of conversations that she wouldn't have
otherwise known. I think that she falsely and testified outside
the scope of her experience. When all after Daniel was
convicted and they immediately filed an appeal based on her
DNA testimony, she immediately retired, literally retired within days of
Daniel being sentenced because the appeal had to be filed

(01:49:52):
in so many days after his sentence. And then they
had if you google it it there's a lot of
news stories on it. They start having closed door secret meetings,
specifically about Elaine Taylor, the DNA expert. Daniel and his
lawyer were not allowed to attend the Court of Criminal Appeals.
Just within the last week came out and said that
was an error, that his attorneys should have been allowed
to attend these very secretive hearings, and it's something that

(01:50:16):
the appeals court is looking at. But I think if
he if he's granted an appeal, I think what will
happen will be a new trial, and he won't They
won't simply just throw out all the charges in releasing.

Speaker 1 (01:50:25):
What I hope is what he'll get is a new trial.

Speaker 4 (01:50:27):
You will be based on the fact that there was
false testimony dealing with the DNA and that false testimony
ultimately affected every single count.

Speaker 3 (01:50:37):
I got to tell you, Brian, I'm really impressed with
your the way you present this case. You know, your
advocate for your client, and I got a lot of
respect I can. I can tell you know you're you're
good at your work, and you obviously you've done one
hundred million times more you know, looking into this than
I have. You know, I have to I have to
give that a lot of weight. You know, you spend
a lot of time working on this and you've come

(01:50:57):
to this conclusion. It's just from the these things that
I have a lot of problems with these other issues,
especially with this seventeen year old girl is contact with
this seventeen year old But again, I guess we could
come to a conclusion he could be factually found not
guilty if you could throw out the DNA. I don't know.

Speaker 4 (01:51:20):
In my mind, the most I'm asking for for people.
People don't have the intimate knowledge of the discovery that
I do. So the most I'm asking for people is
the expectation of our judicial system. And before we lock
somebody up in prison for life, do we at least
have an expectation that it's based on direct evidence. And
or a third party independent witness testimony, or are we

(01:51:42):
willing to give to the end of the whims of
groups like a Black Lives Matter or the social climate
at the time. And are we now telling prosecutors, as
long as you pile on accusers, you get a conviction,
even if there is no evidence, even if there are
not witnesses. If you can pile on, you will win
and people will be sent to prison for the rest
of their life.

Speaker 3 (01:52:03):
Right But they prosecutors normally wouldn't been able to pile
on unless they had victims won't come forward, you know.

Speaker 4 (01:52:09):
But they had to knock on doors. And here was
the problem. And this has played out and I know
we don't have time for it. But tape after tape
after tape, they didn't go to these people and say, come,
we'd like to talk to you. Was there anything inappropriate
or anything that happened during a police stop in the
last year or so that you would like to let
us know about.

Speaker 1 (01:52:26):
They didn't do that.

Speaker 4 (01:52:27):
They literally knocked on doors and said, we believe that
you are the victim of a sexual assault by an
Oklahoma City police officer.

Speaker 1 (01:52:34):
Tell us about it.

Speaker 4 (01:52:35):
And if that person didn't answer, the door, they told
their relatives about it, and the relatives over and over
again through testimony, it was revealed they admitted that they
had seen the reports on the news, They googled the information,
and they contacted people and let them know. These accusers
did not come forward on their own. Their doors had
to be knocked on, they had to been told that

(01:52:55):
not only do we think that you're a victim, but
we want you to tell us about it, and then
they magically became victims. One of the one of the
ones that really stuck out the most was a Carla
Rains seven times during her recorded interview said I don't
know what you're talking about. I'm not the victim of anything.
How did you even get my name? I don't understand.
None of that was listed in Rocky Gregory's report. He

(01:53:18):
didn't list a single time that she said no. He
kept on her and kept saying, this is a really
bad dude. We've got to get him off the streets.
Surely there's something you remember that he did, like maybe
exposed him yourself, maybe whatever. And then she literally says, oh, wait,
I get it. I get where you're coming from. I
get it now. Yeah, there was this one time. That's

(01:53:38):
not how you conduct an investigation.

Speaker 3 (01:53:41):
Brian Bates. I got to take my hat off to you, man,
Brian Bates Bates Investigates dot com. If you're in trouble
down there in Oklahoma, run to Brian Bates cam In
Bates Investigates dot com, a very passionate advocate for his client.
I got to take my hat off to you for that, man.
Holtzclawtrial dot Com is the website that covers is Brian
Holtzclaw case. There's going to be a podcast about this

(01:54:03):
and I'm eagerly awaiting it.

Speaker 1 (01:54:04):
Brian.

Speaker 3 (01:54:05):
Anytime anything new comes up in this case, you want
to come back on the air, just call me up.
I'll put your repick on. We'll book it because you're
a very flexible schedule too, so we'll do it right away. Man,
I really appreciate this. You're a great guest.

Speaker 1 (01:54:16):
Hey, I appreciate it too.

Speaker 4 (01:54:17):
I appreciate the time, and all I'm asking for your
audience is take the time to educate yourself and don't
leave it to the media and to the headlines. Do
the investigative work yourself. It's all going to be there,
it's all going to be online. You'll be able to
read every word of it.

Speaker 3 (01:54:31):
I gotta agree with that too, being involved in a
lot of high profile cases, what you see on TV
is not what's really going on day to day in
these cases. They have their own version of events. But
thank you, Brian Bates, thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (01:54:43):
Thank you good.

Speaker 3 (01:54:44):
I really like Brian Bates.

Speaker 1 (01:54:46):
I like this guy.

Speaker 3 (01:54:47):
But again, still, I'll be doing a little wrap up
on this. I have a little thirty minute wrap up.
I got Vic here today. She's going on vacation for
two weeks, so I'm gonna we're gonna go out for
a little while, going to come back and do the
wrap up minutes on this. I could talk about this
for hours, so man as, I had a lot of
opinions on this, but would be right back after these
messages and I'll give you a little wrap up. I

(01:55:12):
want to give a shout out to Shane McKay. You know,
there's a lot of obstacles to producing the show and
to recording the shows and doing these interviews, especially when
you're dealing with the phone service and overseas phone calls
and skype, the audio levels of the guest and the host.
So what we do now is when I record these
shows before we air the shows, except for the live

(01:55:34):
segment I do Friday nights. We send the audio file
over to Ireland to Shane McKay. It's about sci n
as a gentleman. He came up from Ireland and he
volunteered to take my audio and enhance it and edit
it down. And now even too he's editing the commercials
for me in and out and he's our resident audio
engineer and he's doing all this just a support of

(01:55:56):
the show.

Speaker 5 (01:55:57):
Here.

Speaker 3 (01:55:57):
Provides high quality audio and music production services remotely from
his professional sound studio over there in Ireland. So if
I can send him my tapes from here in the US,
I send him the email and the NP three. You
could do this from anywhere in the world wherever you are,
the England, Ireland, and the United States, wherever you are,
and Shane can handle it for you. He does audio
editing and manstering, production management and technical support, audio enhancement

(01:56:20):
and restoration, sound technician. And you can find him on
upwork dot com under s E I N and then
the letter M amazon McKay. But his email address s
E I N. M A c K A Y at
Gmail dot com Shane, I can't thank you enough for
helping out here and all you do for He's an

(01:56:41):
Irish lod up there in Ireland. We don't hold that
against him though, and a lot of good folks up there.
Now let's see what we're doing here onside. Okay, thank
you so much. Brian Bates Bates Investigates dot Com. Trust
me and if you're in t over there in Oklahoma

(01:57:01):
City or that Oklahoma area, contact Brian Bates even before
you contact an attorney, and he'll help you get an attorney.
The trust me in is this guy knows what he's
done with. It's very, very passionate advocate for his clients.
This guy's no joke. I do a lot of investigators
out there. Okay, all right, and then even though the
run across, the guy even knows the name of this client,
read the ninety percent out. Okay. I'm gonna have a

(01:57:25):
lot to say about this. I have my own opinions
on this, but then again, I haven't studied this case
the way Brian has. But you know, just some stuff
that just jumps right at him.

Speaker 6 (01:57:32):
Man.

Speaker 3 (01:57:33):
You know, I'm not uncomfortable with having this man behind bars.
Let's put it that way from the information I have
so far, and I'll just comment on that, but again
tipping my hat to Brian Bates is doing great work.
My commentary will be about thirty minutes. It'll be in
the members section at Opperaman Report dot com. Now, what's
in the members section. We have about one hundred and
twenty five one hundred and thirty exclusive shows in there

(01:57:54):
that you won't hear live on the radio. You won't
hear it on the internet stations. It's not on YouTube,
it's not on spreaker, it's unavailable. But for the membership section,
the membership section is very inexpensive. Okay, it's only like
six bucks a month, So you can't go wrong with
this man and help. It's helped support the show, helps

(01:58:16):
keep the show on the air. Besides our great sponsors
like cartking dot com. This is what keeps the show
on air, and this is what helps us get on
more stations and get bigger guests and bend stuff like that.
So if you want to support the show, if you
come a member, if you want to contact me directly,
I'm going to give you a discount on the membership.
I'll give you thirteen months for only sixty bucks. So
as you can see, you're getting like three months free.

(01:58:37):
It's a great, great, great, great deal. Three or four
months free. That works at a great deal. But contact
me directly at Opperaman Report at gmail dot com. You
hear all my commentaries on the show which you just
started doing. I have court docs in there, we have
photographs in there, I have some videos in there, all
kinds of great content at Operamandreport dot com. Contact me
directly at operaman Report at gmail dot com for a

(01:58:59):
big discount and just say, hey, Ed, I want that
big discount. Then I'll email it back and I'll say,
hey man, you got it, okay. And that's pretty much
how it goes, trying and hitt the conversation down to
a middle. Okay, I appreciate what he was. Who becomes
a member, but come on, can I get like two
hundred emails a day?

Speaker 5 (01:59:17):
Guys?

Speaker 3 (01:59:18):
You have no idea contact we gottader well about these shows? Hey, Ed,
can you do me a favor? Do you a favor?
Give me a break man? So support the member section
there that way, the videos, court documents. I got another
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(01:59:40):
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(02:00:02):
all that stuff we played everywhere, if all over place.
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intet