Dr. Larry O'Hara 1999 London nail bombings

Episode Transcript
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it worldwide anywhere. Cartking dot com. Okay, I got a
fascinating topic for you here today. Our guest is doctor
Larry O'Hara and he's from the website publication here Notes
from the Borderland and you can find it at Borderland

(02:07):
dot co dot uk. Very well done periodical here with
articles and investigations, very well researched and with notes footnotes
at the end. I'm very impressed with this work, Doctor O'Hara.
Are you there? I am, yes, Can you thank you

(02:28):
so much for coming on the show. Can you tell
us about yourself? Who is doctor Larry O'Hara and tell
us a little bit about notes from the Borderland.

Speaker 4 (02:36):
Oh, let's see, in terms of who I am, I
am sort of, you know, late late late fifties, are
being interested in sort of politics for many years. I
come from probably from the left of the political spectrum,
which is probably to the left of your liberals. I've

(03:01):
been always been interested in examinating kind of fringe movements
of different sorts. I've got the title doctor because my
PhD was on the far right in Britain, the National Front,
which I got about nearly twenty years ago. And I

(03:26):
suppose I set up the magazine because I became you know,
a lot of people who are interested in things like
the security services, certainly in this country's been questioned about,
you know, who was then spying for the Soviet Union
in the Cold War and all that kind of stuff.
I was never really very interested in that. What I

(03:50):
was interested became interested in is the intervention of the
special branch in MI five in the political process to
do with political activists. So my interest in politics, my
commitment and technical abilities in research then led me to
uncover various things like agen provocateurs and how you know,

(04:13):
stories in the media aren't what they seem necessarily, so
myself and a few friends decided to set up this
magazine called Notes from the Borderland, which deliberately doesn't have
a political title as such, because we welcome sources from
everywhere and the great advantage It takes a lot of

(04:36):
work to produce a magazine as we do, but the
advantages that we can look at stories that were interested
in and we can pursue stories over many years. In
other words, we don't necessarily just give them up because
they aren't fashionable, and we cover a broad range of things.
Some of them are quite well known, like say, we

(04:58):
have looked at the the death of Princess Diana, but
others of them are things that people either won't cover
or they won't cover in the way inimitable way. I
would say that we cover them. That's an opening statement
if you like.

Speaker 3 (05:14):
Now, Not from the Borderline is a printed magazine that
I can have delivered through the mail.

Speaker 4 (05:20):
Yeah, it is a printed magazine. There's quite a philosophical
question which we will cover, which is that there are
many ways in which the Internet has been quite good
in terms of instant accessibility of information. But we're I'm
always struck by this kind of impermanence of the Internet.

(05:40):
There at any moment, you know, a website can disappear,
and there are units of the NSA and g HQ
devoted to you know, disappearing sort of stories and sites.
And if you just think about it from point of
view of an authoritarian regime, if you have your opponents
in whatever country the world, it might be if they

(06:02):
just rely on the Internet, if you want to deal
with them, we just simply shut down the site, whereas
if you're dealing with a printed publication and there are
two thousand of a printed then you'd have to get
each copy of the publication in order to effectively suppress it.
And I suppose I am a bit worried by the

(06:23):
interconnectedness of the world in which resilience isn't built in.
And we think that we do put a lot of
effort into our website, and we do put some things
on the website we don't put in the magazine. But
I'm quite influenced by that book I think it was
by Alan Carr, The Shallows on how the Internet doesn't

(06:47):
necessarily encourage people follow arguments, And then you know you're
reading something on the Internet, and then it has a
link to something else, or you have a you know,
a picture of a dancing cat, or a message is
into your email box. So that idea of that sustained,
you know, if you've even looked at the website in

(07:07):
order to follow the complex arguments that we put forward
does require concentration, which maybe the Internet doesn't necessarily encourage that.
So we have a printed magazine and we have the Internet,
and we believe in having both philosophically and operationally.

Speaker 3 (07:28):
Okay, excellent, excellent, Now, and you also have some videos
here too on your website as well Notes from the Blind.

Speaker 4 (07:36):
Yeah, a couple of media appearances and also one case
we looked at the Gareth Williams case, which which we
might come onto. I just visited a few locations and
just did a little bit of filming. So you know,
even though I'm not the most photogenic person.

Speaker 3 (07:53):
There doing that, I myself as well. I got a
face for radio this year right now, by the same
age to him, in my mid mid fifties, like yourself
in the late fifties. And also too, I'm from the left,
you know. I grew up in New York City. I
was with the Yippies, the Youth International Party, which were
affiliated like with the Black Panthers types of the left
off groups. Back in New York City, we had a

(08:15):
magazine called Overthrow Magazine, same kind of you know, printed paper.

Speaker 4 (08:19):
Sure I was in contact with just before he died.
Sadly it only you've ever heard of an obscure American
publication called a Portland Free Press. It was run by
somebody called A Says. But that was definitely on our wavelength.
But sadly, just after I began to exchange information with him,
not as anything sinister about it. I think he just

(08:40):
died of natural causes, so that was a bit that
was a bit sad.

Speaker 3 (08:46):
I definitely recall the Portland Free Press. I think it's
been out of business for a while, right it still.

Speaker 4 (08:50):
Yeah, that's right, So I don't think it continued after
he passed away. Sadly.

Speaker 3 (08:54):
Yeah, Portland's a good hotbed for an old old fashioned
leftist as well. Yeah, and it still is. And thank
over that there's a refuge for us so we can
all band together in Portland. So we got you on
the show to talk about this nail bombing, this nineteen
ninety nine London nail bombing. So when do you get
a little background on that.

Speaker 4 (09:16):
Well, In in nineteen ninety nine, on three weekends there
were three separate nail bombings carried out. The first one
was in Brixton in South London, when quite a few
people were injured, but thankfully nobody was killed. That was

(09:39):
an area sort of with a lot of Afro Caribbean
people in Brixton. The next weekend, on the opposite side
of London in East London in Brick Lane, there was
another nail bombing which again thankfully injured very few, very
few people. But then, sadly, on on the third weekend,

(10:02):
on the Friday, on the thirtieth of April nineteen ninety nine,
in Soho in central London, in a bar frequented by
gay people and others, an ail bomb went off which
killed three people, one of them a pregnant woman. Now,

(10:26):
the person who was definitely involved, but I just don't
think it was just him, somebody called David Copeland was
eventually was on the night after, I think one am
after the last bombing, he was arrested and he had
been involved in neo Nazi groups and initially he said

(10:47):
it was just him and I went along to his trial,
and at his trial he didn't give evidence, although there
was some interesting evidence came out. But the scandal, if
you liked, was that between the first bombing on the
seventeenth of April, it allegedly took about twelve days for

(11:09):
his picture to be processed in such an identifiable way
that it was released into the public domain, because the
minute it was released into the public domain, and people
who knew him recognized him. And it's my contention, and
it's backed up by a lot of evidence that not
only may there have been various people who kind of

(11:30):
put him up to it and sort of trained him
and gave him suggestions that probably when he planted the
first bomb, but definitely by the time he planted the
third bomb, he was being observed by the security services.
In other words, they allowed him to run as saying goes.

(11:55):
And it's my contention that if he had been arrested,
certainly before the first one or after the first one,
then you know, people wouldn't have died, you know, so
and so then that's where the kind of scandal arises,
because there's a there's another kind of I would say,

(12:17):
a parallel case, but there's another course celebra that happened
six years earlier, where a black teenager called Stephen Lawrence
was murdered by some white racists in southeast London, and
that became such a catalyst for changes in the police.
And it still is a big issue now because they've

(12:40):
got some of the people who did it, and there
are other people that people suspect may have been involved,
and there was police corruption and so on, and everybody
wants to talk about the Stephen Lawrence case, but nobody
really wants to talk about the you know, complicity stroke
full knowledge in the David Copeland case, which I think

(13:02):
is I think is sad and I think it's disgraceful. Really.

Speaker 3 (13:08):
Yeah, until I was contacted by Graham, who helped produce
the show and help book this guest, I had never
heard of the nineteen ninety nine of London bombings.

Speaker 4 (13:16):
Surprising because if you look at it, it's you know,
maybe the difference with Stephen Lawrence saying one thing is
that somebody or was captured around about the time of
the bombings, and he certainly was involved. I don't necessarily
go along with his stuff that he was a mind
control experiment or something like that he was an undoubted

(13:37):
neo Nazi and what he did fits in with their ideology.
It's just so I think there were people who put
up to him, and there's even police who are actually
tailing him on the day of the last bombing, who've
phoned the local police station and said, in a panic,
we've lost him. I mean, here's a you know, I say,
fascinating but very worrying statistic. You say, you can find it.

(14:01):
There were quite a few kind of gay bars in
London at that time. Now there were one hundred and
forty three gay bars in London. Of those one hundred
and forty three gay bars there only four of them
were visited before the bombing by police. To say, you

(14:24):
need to be a bit worried the Admiral Duncan. The
pub that was bombed, plus two other pubs on that
street and one on another street nearby were the only
ones that were visited. So four out of one hundred
and forty three venues were visited, including Nuwami eventually bombed.

(14:45):
If you add to that that people on a Lesbian
and Police Consultative committee, According to a member of the committee,
they reported back that they were shown police footage of
him being surveiled on the day planted the last bomb,
which interestingly wasn't used in court. You know, there's definitely

(15:06):
got to be a question about fore knowledge, and I'm
not sure about well, I can have a guess about
how journalists operate internationally, but one thing the journalists like
to do in my experience is to claim credit for things,
even if they were coincidental. And on the day of
the last bombing, you know, while he was out active

(15:30):
with his bomb, what was then a weekly edition of
a paper called a gay paper called the Pink Paper
appeared and it's got you know, gays maybe target m
I five warns Security Service warms and the journalist who
actually wrote that story as later on, had a number

(15:52):
of unconvincing explanations trying to say, well, it was just
a guess, it was just a lucky break. Somebody else
suggested it. Then a week after he then went into
more detail about m I five. So how could the
British Security Service know that or have a theory that

(16:13):
gay targets were going to be bombed? I think my
inference is that they had somebody in his orbit, and
therefore they gave the story to a friendly journalist and
then when it actually happened, he then got cold feet
and very unusually for a journalist, decided to downplay an

(16:34):
exclusive scoop that he'd got, which I don't know about
in the US, but that's very unusual.

Speaker 3 (16:40):
Definitely, what about other press coverage, because after they were
the first bombing must have been a big story, right, Yeah.

Speaker 4 (16:47):
It was all over. It was all over the all
over the mainstream media and then people were speculating about
But the crucial thing, in a way is what wasn't
in the media was the photo of him. Now a
great play was made, you see. There is a precedent
for this kind of case, also involving strange to say,

(17:10):
a bomb nearby, which is a few years before there
was some people who were linked to an English left
wing group, quite unusually were carrying out Irish Republican bombings.
That's quite unusual actually really, And one of the bombs

(17:33):
one members of the group. They planted a bomb at
a famous Harrod's department store in Oxford Street, which is
quite near to SOHO, and the footage of them, of
them planting the bomb in the bin outside the store,
was kept secret for thirty three days until the police

(17:53):
became really fed up about it and they pushed the
security services. The photo was printed and he was identified
the same day, and of course the questions were asked
by journalists friendly to the police. You know, why was
this footage suppressed? And I think it's a similar thing
with the Copeland case that there was a great play

(18:14):
was made about when it eventually came out that the
photo images of him have been sent to the National
Security Agency in the US in order to be developed,
as if we didn't have developing facilities in this country.
But ironically enough, the footage that was then used, that

(18:34):
was printed in the paper wasn't foot It wasn't footage
that had been to the US at all. So in
other words, somebody took the decision to suppress a photo
that would have identified him after the first bombing, and
then later on they came up with implausible stories. So
in a way, it's still Charlock Holmes a dog that

(18:57):
didn't bark. Why were we waiting twelve days for those
photos to be released, because the minute they were released,
he was identified.

Speaker 3 (19:07):
Do you have a deerience and why they were with
holding the photo for so on?

Speaker 4 (19:11):
I think, well, I think what you've got to think
about is if you work on the assumption and it
wasn't just David Northmore, the journalist from the Pink Paper.
There was another ex military commander who also issued a warning.
But if you work on the assumption that the security services,
so you've got, you know, just as you probably have

(19:33):
in the US with the FBI and Homeland Security and
so on, you had a special branch. You had the
ordinary police, and you had the Security Service, and you've
got a bit of a turf wall between them, in
which at that time, although MI I five didn't and
don't have powers of arrest, if they get interested and

(19:55):
involved in any investigation, they can like overrule the police
and they can say no, no, you're not really going
to go down that line of inquiry. So I think
that the reason why the pictures were delayed being released
into the public domain is I think not the police necessarily,

(20:15):
but I think people in the security services knew who
he was and they wanted to allow him to plant
further bombs, which was then followed a year later by
anti terrorist legislation. In other words, I think they wanted
to allow the bombings to continue a bit more I
think that's why they were suppressed. I don't think the

(20:36):
police were involved in it as such, but I definitely
think the security services were.

Speaker 3 (20:41):
In order to instigate that new legislation which would be
more oppressive.

Speaker 4 (20:47):
Because it's an interesting thing, and in fact, you could
see almost an equivalence of it today that the amount
of actual bombs and terrors is carried out by the
organized far right in this country. In the UK you
can almost count on the fingers of two hands, but

(21:11):
the amount of activities carried out by people who are
linked to is Lambist terroristic groups not that likely word terrorism,
but is Lamist groups is far more goes into the
hundreds and into the thousands. But whenever anything aris us
to do with the far right, those things are sort

(21:31):
of magnified and blown up out of at a bad
phrase proportion in order to introduce a kind of spurious balance,
so that can justify blanket restrictions on everybody, and it
can then be used to ethnic minority and religious minorities
to say, well, actually we are taking these other things seriously.

(21:55):
So there's a core case going on in this country
now where members of a tiny neo NATI group called
National action who probably never numbered more than a hundred people.
One of them bought a machette with a name who
states because he's guilty of attempting to kill a labor

(22:18):
and p butt. Press coverage that has been given is
far more than it would be too an equivalent to
Islamist action. And I think that's I think that fits
fits in with an agenda.

Speaker 3 (22:33):
We have that same thing here. It's the same kind
of thing like you said too, and these small right
wing groups they'll they'll play that up. And what really
came into my mind popped into my head as you
were speaking, is we have a group here called the
Westborough Baptist Church, which is really a family of about
twenty people, and they protest and they hold up these
science saying God hates fags, you know. But all they

(22:55):
have to do is just if they if they pass guests,
they're on the front page of by this tiny little
group of a family people harmly who cares what they
have to say. But they get so much free press,
uh and even from the left too. Just anything time
they say boo, you know, right awaybody has to comment
on it and play him up in the press. It's

(23:17):
fascinating We're gonna have to take a commercial break, okay,
in about a second, But when we come back, I'd
like to ask you a little bit more about this
David Copeland. Who was this guy? What was his motivation?
And you said, if I'm correct that you believe he
was under surveillance before even the first bombing.

Speaker 4 (23:35):
That's quite okay.

Speaker 3 (23:37):
Then let's say we'll get into that when we get
back with doctor Larry O'Hara. Uh, we're talking a bit
about the nineteen ninety nine London nail bombings. This David Copeland.
The website is Borderland dot co dot uk. I really
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Videos on Demand. Watch it for one dollar and ninety
nine cents. Okay, welcome back to the Opperaman Report. I'm
your host, private investigator at Opperman. We're here today with

(28:17):
doctor Larry O'Hara. We're talking about amongst other things in
nineteen nine London nail bombing. His website is Notes from
the Borderland Borderland dot co dot uk. But it's not
just the website too. You can order a magazine, a
paper magazine, have it mailed to you there. So doctor O'Hara,

(28:39):
give us an idea. Who was David Copeland? What was
his motivation? Why would he be under surveillance before he
started bombing people?

Speaker 4 (28:47):
Well, in terms of who he was, he was a
maintenance engineer on the London underground. Is somebody who was
a bit of a loner, you know, to have that
many friends he'd been involved in. He wasn't very tall, which,
of course, you know, obviously nothing wrong with that, but

(29:10):
you wonder whether people who aren't very tall get a
thing called little little man syndrome and they get a
bit paranoid. And he was had been acted to, didn't
seem to have many steady relationships. It was said of
him at one point by somebody that he barely even

(29:32):
changed a fuse. So the idea that somebody like that
could actually construct nail bombs is without help is interesting. Now.
His political trajectory is he'd been involved in what was
then the major right wing group, the British National Party,

(29:53):
then led by somebody called John Tyndall, who I think
visited the US quite a bit American so conferences and
things like that, and he'd become a bit sort of
disillusioned with them. So he then moved into the circles
of a neo Nazi group called. Definitely we know that

(30:18):
he was a member of a tiny group called the
National Socialist Movement, and they were a splinter from a
group called Combat eighteen, a neo Nazi group. The Combat
eighteen stood for number one letter of the alphabet is
a eight is age, so combat out of Hitler, which

(30:40):
gives you a clue about where they're coming from. Now. Interestingly,
if you look up Combat eighteen on the Internet, there's
a lot of people who say that this was set
up by the Security services. I don't believe that, but
what I definitely think did happen is that the Security
ser has heavily infiltrated the group called Combat eighteen, which

(31:04):
is why some people might have sort of recognized him.
And I think it's within the circles of Combat eighteen
and also the National Socialist Movement that he might have
met people who might have encouraged him in a bomb
making direction.

Speaker 3 (31:23):
You see, he didn't have the intellect or the savvy
to construct these nail bombs on his own. Were these
sophisticated devices with timers or were these just like devices
with a fuse? You know, because it's pretty simple to
put together a pipe balm?

Speaker 4 (31:36):
What mean they had timers? Okay, they had timers. Yeah,
And if you think about it, they they all functioned
as he intended them to do. They all actually went off.
Actually no, the second one, the one in Brick Lane,
sort of only partially went off and went off in
somebody's car. But the first one and the one at

(31:58):
Brixton and the last one did actually function. I think
he downloaded some stuff like the Anarchist Cookbook and so
on from the from from the internet. But the interesting
thing there is when he looked at his movements to

(32:19):
see whether he might have worked alone. And of course
I attended the trial, so a lot of these, you know,
because he didn't give evidence, a lot of questions that
I would have been screaming to ask weren't asked. Now,
if the period where the bombing took place between the
first and the second bombing you've got the date of

(32:43):
the twentieth of April. Now for sad as it is
for neo Nazis the world over, the twentieth of April
is sacred date, right because Adolf Hitler's birthday. And the
interesting thing that did come out as the trial is
that alone he wasn't working that day. They mentioned in

(33:04):
his effects that he had a travel card that was
dated a weekly travel card to go on public transports
because he used the train and the underground to get
to work. Because he lived in Hampshire, a few miles
away from London. He had a travel card that started
on the twentieth of April. So it's obvious that he

(33:28):
must have gone somewhere on the twentieth of April where
he would have probably met other Neo Nazis. But of course,
because he didn't give evidence, that question wasn't asked. But
it highly likely that the one time of the year
that he would be sure to meet other people of
that persuasion would be on adult Hitler's birthday.

Speaker 3 (33:51):
Now is he is he still alive today in prison?

Speaker 4 (33:55):
Yeah, he is alive in prison. And he when he
when he was first when the police first came for him,
he said. His first thing was he said, when he
opened the door to them, he said, it was me.
I did them on my own. Now, after he was
in custody for a while, he then said, actually, I'm

(34:20):
a member of a group called the White Walls, which
I can explain a bit about. Now you could explain,
you could reconcile the two statements to say, first of all,
I worked on my own, and secondly, I'm a member
of the group. A few days later, just from a
basic security blank point of view, that if you're arrested

(34:40):
and you say I did it on my own, and
the people are asking you want to believe that, then
that allows your colleagues time to escape. But then once
they've had time to escape and it's quite clear then
are going to be arrested, then you can then admit
that you're a member of the group. Now, around the
time that he was arrested, while the bombings were going on,

(35:05):
a number of stenciled hand stenciled so you couldn't see
the handwriting, communicates were sent using a code word. I
think it was a code word nemesis, i e. Retribution
using a code word was sent to various media outlets
around the time of each bombing, and I don't think

(35:27):
he sent them, and I certainly don't think he could
have sent them all, and that raises then the question
of course, were there other people he was working with.
And there's a very chilling document called I Wish I
could At the time, I was in contact, I was
interviewed on the media about these things at the time,
and if the bombings had continued, I had one TV channel,

(35:50):
Channel four that was actually going to pay to get
somebody to analyze the language, because it was a very
interesting document called the White Walls, which is like a
manual for race war, and it basically was written by
somebody very intelligent with a degree of historical sense, because
they knew about things like the nineteen nineteen race riots

(36:10):
that most fascists wouldn't have even known about. And it
was basically saying, you know that you do a few
things bombs, military action, to encourage your reaction to then
get the state involved, and what you want to do
is to increase racial tension. And in some senses, what
he was actually doing could be seen as fitting into that,

(36:33):
encouraging polarization by fitting into that plan. But I don't
think he sent out that all those communicais. I don't
think he certainly didn't write that document, but I think
it may well have been a document that he actually read,
and I have a number of ideas as to who
might have written it. But without that linguistic analysis, it's
difficult to be difficult to say.

Speaker 3 (36:57):
You mentioned now have you tried to interview him on
he's in present? Can you do that over there in
the UK?

Speaker 4 (37:03):
Possibly? Could? I mean I haven't, I might do. Yeah,
okaybody listening to anybody listening to this or now we're
thinking right, demand that person doesn't get visiting orders. I
do know he was recently. I think his demeanor hasn't
improved somewhat because he was recently given an extended sentence
because he attacked another prisoner with a razor blade and

(37:27):
so on. But yeah, one of the really frustrating things.
I mean, I suppose at the moment I've taken it
as read that he was involved, but I don't think
I agree with you. It probably would be a good
thing to try to speak to him, because nobody has
actually asked the question that we're asking of him, you know,

(37:48):
they just you know, it's just like a non issue.
It isn't for us. But yeah, so it's a good suggestion.

Speaker 3 (37:55):
And it's been so long, you know, he may he
may be looking.

Speaker 4 (37:58):
For willing to speak.

Speaker 3 (38:01):
Yeah, yeah, want some attention because isn't there all? Does
he have family, is in contact? What anyway?

Speaker 1 (38:06):
Do we know?

Speaker 4 (38:07):
Well, he has a Yeah, he has a father who
he is in contact with. I mean, it's one interesting thing.
I'm just looking at some of my notes here that
his total income per month was thirteen hundred pounds UK
pounds at that time, and in the four to six
weeks while the bomber we were going on, he spent

(38:29):
fifteen hundred pounds okay on materials. Well, where did he
get that money from? Probably not.

Speaker 3 (38:35):
You mentioned also too that one of the bombs went
off in somebody else's car. Doing whose car that was
and what the circumstance?

Speaker 4 (38:41):
Yeah, I think that was. I actually saw that person
give evidence. I mean sometimes truth is stranger and fiction.
And this person, you know, I saw some people give
evidence at the Ope Ali and I thought, you know,
you're Toddy, I don't believe you. This guy I did.
He was he was an Irish and as it happened,

(39:01):
and he was walking down Brick Lane on a Saturday
afternoon when it's generally empty because the market there, the
street mark, only takes place on a Sunday. And he
saw this bag and he thought he had a look
at it, and he looked. He had a quick look inside,
and he thought it might be some kind of tools.
So he put it in his car, put it in
his car boot, and he was thinking of taking it,

(39:23):
and then he then did some shopping and then went
back and had another look at it and thought, oh no,
the wires, that looks a bit dodgy. So he then
walked to the local police station and as he was
on this near the police station to report this. But
you know, what turned out to be a bomb. Then

(39:47):
it went off and it's probably the fact that it
was in a car when it went off probably you know,
helped also the fact that there were very few people around.
But it sounds weird, doesn't it. But it's like the
first bomb, the bomb in Brixton was actually put He
put it down somewhere and then somebody moved it, and
then somebody else moved it. Because some people they see

(40:10):
a bag and it looks like quite new and it's
quite heavy, so some people might think, oh, well, maybe
somebody's left something I can that might be might be
worth some money.

Speaker 3 (40:21):
Free stuff, yeah, free stuff on the street.

Speaker 4 (40:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (40:26):
I always make it. Yeah, I always make that joke.
Whenever I see like a bicycle on a tender look
a free bike.

Speaker 4 (40:35):
I look at it and I think at an ied
that somebody's left.

Speaker 3 (40:39):
All right, we have to stay in our toes. Now,
did you have what you said you had some more
information about the White Wolves to share?

Speaker 4 (40:46):
Yeah, okay, Well just simply about there's this document that
was circulated on the far right and it's just called
the White Wolves, and so it basically it's outlines at
about twelve pages long, and it just sort of outlines
a strategy for creating I don't know, you probably are
familiar with the phrase I think was used in relation

(41:10):
to by the relation to the far right in Italy
called the strategy of tension, whereby political acts and bombings
are carried out in order to influence the political climate
in an authoritarian and confrontational direction. And so what the
White Wolves was doing just a bit like some of

(41:31):
the the al Qayed documents, like say the Manual of Savagery,
for example, is probably a similar example of that from
an Islamist point of view, we're setting out step by
step that if you carry out these actions. And it
also gave very security advice on you not keeping propaganda,

(41:56):
not keeping stuff at home, which he didn't really quite
seem to follow. But of course you could read a
document like that and kind of be inspired by it.
And here's the thing. What was very interesting was that
at the trial there were just huge gaps in the
official announcements as to what he was doing. Like for example,

(42:19):
before he planted his last bomb in Soho, he stayed
the night in a hotel because he'd seen his picture
in the paper on the Thursday night, so we thought, oh,
I better not go home. But he went out to
the hotel and he phoned people. Nobody asked at the trial,
who who's he phoning? What was he discussing? You know,

(42:40):
he probably wasn't planning his next next year's holiday. Then
there's the question of you know, so there's all those
kind of questions which you know still still there.

Speaker 1 (42:55):
Now.

Speaker 3 (42:55):
You said that some theorists out there have a that
he's a mind control subject, but you don't subscribe to that.
There is that theory can you describe what that is.

Speaker 4 (43:06):
Yeah, yeah, there is, there is. I mean, you know,
and I suppose you know the I would say that.
I just I haven't seen really any evidence of it.
I mean at the trial I listened to the evidence
of the psychiatrist there, and there wasn't really anything in

(43:28):
it or anything I've seen that indicates that he was
anything other than a you know, a loaner type neo Nazi.
But I suppose if he was mind controlled, then you'd
have thought, not that I go down that road, but
you'd thought then that you would. They presumably would tell

(43:49):
him to hang around with one of his with his
with his final bombs, so he could be blown up
with it. You know, I'm not sure. I'm not quite sure.
And then also, if if there are these mind controls,
things like the Manchurian candidates or whatever, how long is
this mind control supposed to supposed to work for?

Speaker 3 (44:07):
You know, by coincidence they happened to be. I have
a guest tomorrow coming on. We're going to be talking
about mind control, So I'll ask him. If we haven't
coming on, I'll ask him about it. Now, what about
these groups he was involved with, did they ever come
forward and make statements saying, yes, we're involved with this guy. No,
we never heard of them, you know.

Speaker 4 (44:26):
Yeah, Well the British National Party said, oh yeah, he
may have been a member, but we don't seem to
have his records. Well that's not that's very very not surprising.
Some evidence did come forward that showed he'd been a member,
because it showed him at a meeting a couple of

(44:46):
years earlier where he was pictured right next to the leader,
John Tyndall, went to antist attack one of their meetings.
So it's very difficult for the BNP to say that
he'd never been a member the Nazi, the final Nazi group.
He was a member of the National Socialist Movement. I

(45:09):
think the leader of that somebody called Tony Williams. I
think when Copeland was arrested he became so frightened that
he immediately dissolved the organization and I think he cooperated
with the police and turned over I think, you know,
turned over his membership records to them, and in return

(45:32):
for that, he was he was given a soft ride
in the media documentaries that that that came out, So
they admitted that he'd been a member, but obviously none
of them said, you know that we know anything about
him one of the really frustrating things. And I think
I might well ask Copeland is he apparently said in

(45:52):
his statement to the police. And it was also mentioned
even in some of the media stuff that a year
before or in nineteen nine, he'd been to Poland for
some military training. What do you'd think that would be
a very important line of inquiry for the police and
the media. But no, not interested, not interested.

Speaker 1 (46:17):
You know.

Speaker 3 (46:17):
I had a guest on the show, Trevor Aronson, and
he wrote a book called The Terror Factory, Inside the
FBI's manufactured War on Terrorism, and the theory of the
case was, the theory of the book is that the
FBI will infiltrate these groups and then they'll egg They'll
catch a guy who's not too bright, little you know,
mentally impaired, and they'll egg them on, and they'll even

(46:38):
give him like phony and bombs, you know, on phony equipment,
stuff like that. Then I'll rest him and they make
a big headline. Now, these groups are so heavily infiltrated,
have you explored that possibility that he was sort of
like an unwitting dupe of the intelligence agencies.

Speaker 4 (46:51):
Oh yeah, I mean that's why I think, and maybe
because I want my life expectancy to continue. I've even
got a possible name of who might have been involved. Yeah,
I definitely think so, I definitely. I think that's how
that's how you know, if m I five were to
know about him and to be tailing him, then they'd

(47:13):
have had to have been given some kind of human
intelligence that this was something he was about to do,
which fits with the gaps in a report of monitoring
of his movements. It also fits him with you know
that they're quite happy for him not to not to
not to give evidence. So yeah, I definitely think that

(47:37):
he would have been picked upon as a as a
likely candidate by somebody who was I mean, I would
never you see you say the terrorism factory. I mean,
you know in other areas like say, for instance, say
say to do with the ra in the past or whatever.

(47:58):
You know, most of the bombings they carried out were
done by themselves for their own motives. Many of these
groups don't necessarily need somebody to push them to do
things because they're already that way inclined. But as I've mentioned,
the British far right hasn't really had much of a

(48:18):
track record of doing those things. So and at that
time electorally, the British National Party, interestingly, around the time
of the nail bombing was doing quite well electorally. They
were to go on to have people elected to the
European Parliament, you know, as opposed to the British Parliament.

(48:41):
So certainly there might be some people who might have
thought that undermining the electoral prospects of such groups by
having somebody carrying out violence might also be another subsidiary
motive for doing so.

Speaker 3 (48:57):
Now, you've been investigating the story for quite some time, now,
have you had any tips come in and things they've
followed up on?

Speaker 4 (49:05):
Yeah, I mean, one thing that we had was that
after we first covered the story, somebody, a gay person
who was on the Police Gay Community Consultative Committee, then
gave us sort of information documents, minutes of the dealings

(49:28):
that that committee'd had with the police, and also the
first hand account how members, some key members of that
committee were told by the police that on the day
of the last bombing, the Soho bombing, he was being
monitored by police. Well, given that, you know, the official

(49:52):
account says that his name was given on a list
of suspects late on the Friday after the bombing. UH
that would indicate that they made the police that the
official story isn't true, and that the police or Special
Branch or whatever actually had him had him under surveillance.

(50:15):
So that information, you know that it's not just like
my supposition if that's what these And interestingly, one of
the three people who was shown this privileged access, because
he didn't show it to all the committee of the
police footage of him being monitored, well there were three
of them. One of them when I rang him up

(50:37):
and had traced him to his job in Newcastle, he
was very frightened and slammed the phone down on me.
The other one the still the editor of a magazine
called Searchlight, which I've examined as being a front for
the security services. That he should be given privilege, privileged
access to information Security Service wanted, isn't surprised. The third

(51:02):
person who was the leader as well as being gay,
she happened to be the leader of a council, Lambeth Council.
Previously she noticed one of the articles on our website,
the Copeland Scandal Summarized and Updated, which is taken from

(51:25):
issue six of the magazine. She noticed the article which
mentioned about the footage having been shown to these people
and full knowledge and so on, and she actually sent
an abusive, an illiterate letter to us to the magazine
complaining about this, that and the other. But one thing

(51:47):
that she did not do is she didn't deal with
the substance of the key claim that if they were
shown footage in being monitored on CCTV just before his trial,
when they were shown it, then I indicated that the
official story that they only found out about him after
the bomb was untrue. She didn't deal with that point

(52:10):
at all. She used the word libel, but she did
not answer that question. So what she didn't do there
for is she didn't refute it. So therefore I think
the silence there is deafening because if that been totally untrue,
then why didn't she say it? She just dealt with
a load of other red herrings.

Speaker 3 (52:31):
Now clarify for me, the first two bombings were of
ethnic minorities and then the third one was a homosexual community.

Speaker 4 (52:39):
Yeah yeah, but of course the thing to say about
gay bars is because they are generally non threatening, all
kinds of people will go there, right, you know, less
likely to have violence and so on. So but yeah,
that's right. And of course all of those three kind
of targets. I mean my god feeling and I think
I was asked at the time. My got feeling was

(53:01):
after the first two, who it'll probably be a Jewish
target next? That was my gut feeling. You know, I
was obviously wrong, but all those three targets do fit
within the parameters of Nazi neo Nazi ideology. An interesting
thing about the third one is that after the third

(53:23):
bombing of the gay bar, the journalist, because I'd been
on TV and I actually had an article on the
bombings printed, of all places, the an for Black Republican News,
which was the chin Fein paper in Ireland. Because of that,
the journalist who wrote the Pink Paper article saying, m

(53:47):
I five Warren gazed beyond alerts. He actually rang me
up and he was questioning me about what did I
know about the relationship between combat ad Am, I, this,
that and the other. And I said to him, are
you planning to write about this? And he said, oh no,

(54:07):
And there were of course. Two days later his follow
up article, which really put him in it said yes,
m I five had. In other words, he repeated the thing,
and he didn't used it as an advertising advertorial piece
trying to recruit gay people into MI I five. But
the very fact that a journalist who I've asked questions

(54:30):
about before I'd even asked questions about him, was actually
ringing me up, wanting to find out what I knew,
as did another journalist called Graham McLagan. He didn't like
what we wrote in issue We do believe in rite
of reply to anybody really, so anybody who's covered in
the magazine, if they don't like what we've written about them,

(54:54):
we'll happily print what they have to say and then
we'll answer it. And he didn't like what we wrote
in issue number three, which is the major article. But
and so he sent in a letter which didn't really
didn't really add anything to it, you know, didn't really
didn't really counter what we had to say. But you know,

(55:18):
if I were here, Marad advised him, our critics usually
and they're wise enough, would mean, you know, in your
kind of say, your kind of legal system, the notes
on the borderline when we cover somebody. One of the
reasons why we don't come out very often is we
don't just lay charges against people. I think we do

(55:40):
what you might call a sort of a grand jury indictment,
all the evidence in great detail, including their answers, and
the anticipate them. And so if what we say about
people is correct, then they're wise just to ignore us.

Speaker 3 (55:57):
You know, very very good. Okay, let's take a little
marshal break with doctor Larry O'Hara. We've been talking about
the nineteen ninety nine London nail bombings as David Copeland.
You can find doctor O'Hara's work at Notes from the
Borderland Borderland dot co dot uk and you can order
this and have it come in your mail there and
can read it on an actual paper form. I like

(56:18):
the good old days. We'll be right back with it.

Speaker 6 (56:23):
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Be with you. We all have questions.

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(01:00:44):
welcome back to the Opperman Report. I'm your host, Private
investigator Ed Opperman, and we're here today with doctor Larry
O'Hara from Notes from the Borderland Borderland dot co dot uk.
Doctor O'Hara, I have one last question for you now
with this situation with them, where the first couple of

(01:01:06):
bombings were with his ethnic bombings and then the third
one was a homosexual, How did the police know what
the authorities that they would say, how they knew or
suspected that he has changed his EMO.

Speaker 4 (01:01:18):
Well, no, because the police, the official police line is
that they only became aware of who he was when
the photograph was released on the Thursday, the day before
the last bombing, and then people began sort of contacting

(01:01:43):
the police, and then on Friday his name was added
to a list. So, in other words, right the police,
although we've got the names of individual police who were
operationally involved. The police have never officially on the record,
other than to people like the gay campaign of Peter Tatchell,

(01:02:04):
who also raised it, they've never officially admitted in public
that they were tracking him for the last bombing. They've
not admitted that. So their argument, the official story is
that after he planted the last bomb as one of
a name on a list of two hundred and sixty

(01:02:25):
one suspects, I think it was anti I think it
was actually the Flying Squad sort of armed police went
to his address in Hampshire at midnight one am in
the morning and when they opened the door his door,
he was just a name on a list. They saw
all a load of neo Nazi propaganda all over the walls,

(01:02:48):
and he said, almost I've been expecting you. It was
me who did it on my own. So their argument
it's not that they picked him up while he was
doing it, but that he was identified from this foot
from this photo that was delayed for twelve days. That's
the official story that they have come up with.

Speaker 3 (01:03:09):
Gotcha, gotcha? Okay, Now, now we had mentioned too off
there before we started that you were very frustrated about
your your work investigating this case.

Speaker 4 (01:03:18):
Well, yeah, because you know, some people have you know,
given us, given us information. But I would contrast it
with say, we had the bombings in London in July
two thousand and five at seven to seven, where it's

(01:03:39):
been a whole kind of industry grown up what I
would call a seven to seven cult who verishly believe that,
you know, the people who carried out the bombings didn't
carry it out, or if they did, they were mind
controlled or it was In other words, what I'm frustrated
about is that there are people who would rather concentrate

(01:04:02):
on blaming the security services for things there's no real
evidence that they've actually done, then actually get involved in
looking at things that they have done. And the key
to it, and one of the reasons why we use
kind of footnotes is that all the time we need
to be questioning our own you know, saying, well, what

(01:04:22):
is the evidence that we've got for that? And there
is a danger, as you probably understand, is that when
you're investigating something, you'll think, ah, right, I've got one, two, three,
and five of the jigsaw. All I'm looking for is
number four. But of course if number four isn't there,
it isn't there. And you have to just say at

(01:04:44):
some point, well, you know, we can't, don't. We don't
really know. But there's a danger with kind of I
divide the world between official conspiracy theorists and unofficial conspiracy theorists.
Almost now, the official conspiracy theorists of, for example, the
people who told us that Saddam Hussein had weapons of

(01:05:04):
mass destruction and then we went to war against Iraq
and it turned out that they didn't. That's a rather
big conspiracy theory for which some people like maybe myself
think that George Bush and Tony Blir if you're going
to indicte people for war crimes, then hopefully they'll be
a cell available for them. But then there's the unofficial

(01:05:25):
conspiracy theorists who almost believe that that the secret State
has done everything you know, has committed unimaginable crimes, including
ones that they haven't, And so in steering a course
between that's the likes of ourselves, who we believe to
be evidence based who you know, I'll just say, just

(01:05:51):
say another story. I mean, I'm sure you're aware of,
say of the Julian Assan's wiki leaks. Sure controversy. Well,
there's an interesting thing there which is that one of
the reasons why he's hold up in the thicket Ecuadorian
Embassy in the UK is because he's been accused of

(01:06:15):
various sexual misdemeanors in relation to a trip to Sweden. Now,
one of the newspapers that worked with WikiLeaks to bring
out that information was the Guardian newspaper in the UK,
which is well regarded, particularly by itself and a lot
of people the world over think that this is the

(01:06:36):
paragon of liberal values and factual journalism and so on,
which I've never really believed. And one of the key
reporters called Nick Davies did got did a hatchet job
on Julian sand which basically turned him from being seen
as a a supporter of freedom of information exposing state

(01:07:01):
crimes into being seen as a rapist. And what I
did in the magazine in the last issue of the
magazine is I dissected Davies's take on the story and
compared it with his normal supposed methods and showed that
it didn't add up. Now, I'm not defending Julian a
sannge attitude towards women, but there which is not what

(01:07:25):
I would share, but the more precise thing is for
me here the Guardian was acting as an organ of disinformation,
which would certainly in the Secret State's interest and people
who wanted to rubbish wookie leagues, but of course trying
to get people in the UK, even supporters of Julian

(01:07:46):
Sange to take it seriously. They don't because of course
none of them want to want to criticize the Guardian,
so they're just prepared to bite the lip and put
up with it and allow them to continue to get
away with it, you know, which is But when I
say frustrating, yeah, frustrating, But in the end, you know,
the old saying goes, you've got to speak truth to power.

(01:08:10):
And because we published the magazine under our own horseps,
we could certainly do with more subscribers, and we'd like
to come out more often. We have a dream of
being able to pay contributors, which we can't do the moment.
But you know, we were quite satisfied that that there's
value in what we do.

Speaker 3 (01:08:32):
I share your frustration. It's so easy to to gat
caught up in the sensationalism you want. You want to
drum up enthusiasm for your work, and it's so easy
to get caught up in there, and but you gotta
remember the truth is more interesting that then your fantasy
that you can come up with in the wild theories
and his wild speculations that get more cliques, get more cliques,

(01:08:54):
you know, we get more clickbait, but the truth is well, yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:08:57):
I mean that's right. I mean what you find is
if you look at something and you see something that
doesn't quite fit, actually, what it then usually does is
open a door to the possibilities that you haven't really
thought of, you know. And one of the criticisms that
is used, you know, various criticisms of our magazine, and
one of them people say, well, it's a bit complicated. Well,

(01:09:18):
you know what, Life's complicated, you know, so if we're
going to reflect life, then maybe there is a degree
of complexity. Then obviously we've got to try and set
things out in a logical, coherent manner. But you know what,
we haven't. We haven't been sued yet. I think there's
a moral there somewhere, because art the British libel laws

(01:09:39):
are a lot more open to litigants than they are
in the US.

Speaker 3 (01:09:44):
Right, right, It's much tougher over there, and you get
much tougher now and our covering of the nineteen ninety
nine London nail bombing. Is there anything I've left out
that I forgot to ask you before we move out
to another tabic?

Speaker 1 (01:09:56):
No?

Speaker 4 (01:09:56):
No, I think you've raised a lot of the lot
of the relevant questions, which denly answering you.

Speaker 3 (01:10:01):
Okay, So then before the show you mentioned I believe
it's Garrett Williams who was found naked in a better
that sounds like a good one.

Speaker 4 (01:10:11):
There's even a slight US angle there.

Speaker 3 (01:10:12):
Okay, great, what do you get?

Speaker 4 (01:10:15):
Well, he was a mathematical genius who worked for the
British gc HQ General Communications Techquarters, which is the British
equivalent of the NSA in the US, and I think
they exchange information and personnel. I think he had been
on a job exchange in the US at some point,

(01:10:37):
and just before he died, I think he went to
I think it was he went to is it a
black hat convention to do with cyber stuff in the US?

Speaker 3 (01:10:47):
Yeah, Las Vegas, Yeah, Las Vegas.

Speaker 1 (01:10:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:10:49):
I think what it's called.

Speaker 4 (01:10:52):
And basically what happened is that he was found you know,
it's almost like a Sherlock Holmes mystery really. In fact,
there's a wonderful website called Sherlock Holmes and the Older
Mystery where they've got about about fifty chapters so far

(01:11:14):
where somebody's taken the essence of this case and I've
imagined Sherlock Holmes is investigation, which is quite surreal. But
essentially he was found inside locked back in his bathroom
with heat turned up and were locked from the outside,

(01:11:37):
and all his phones had been showed. His sister became concerned.
So he hadn't turned up to work. He worked with
him walking distance of six He was on sirconmons. He
hadn't turned up to work, and so she phoned I
think his employers, and rather than actually just send somebody

(01:11:59):
around themselves, they sent the police round. The police went round,
they went into the flat. They found this. The minute
they realized he was somebody who was to do with
the security service, they got a bit oh ah, this
is a bit serious. And then ever since then there's
been Then there was an inquest and there were various

(01:12:21):
people tried to claim that he was Again there was
a sexual angle to it, that he was a homosexual.
There's no evidence of that. Even if he had been
so what that there was wearing women's clothes was in
fact he was on a fashion course. None of these
clothes I think he probably bought them in the US
to sell them. And then there was a fascinating conflict

(01:12:44):
between six, the External Security Service, and the police because
there was a policewoman who had put on the case,
Jackie Severa, who had a really good track record as
a murder detective, and six appointed a the aison person
and didn't for it. She only found out at the inquest,

(01:13:05):
at which point she was absolutely livid that he had
nine computer memory sticks in his locker at work that
they didn't tell her about and they didn't allow the
police access to. Was that might have revealed something that
went on. And we did uncover something very interesting about
that case ourselves, just open source stuff. Is because there

(01:13:31):
was a lot of allegation about oh, well, if you
look at his Internet browsing history, he visited sites on
bondage and this, that and the other, implying that it
was auto erotic, you know that he'd locked himself in
this bag. Well, we actually contacted a number of these
websites that you could contact and with the two of them,
like kind of commercial ones, and of the three who

(01:13:54):
replied you could get replies from, they all said that
nobody in the police had ever even bothered content in them.
So if the state thought that he'd met somebody via
one of these sites, then the obvious question is why
did they never contact them. They didn't really believe that.
It's all that was probably m I six meters putting

(01:14:15):
that about and the other really so then they had
an expert when it came in the inquest, and this
expert showed that, you know, he couldn't have really got
in the bag himself and locked it from the inside.
And just after the inquest concluded, then this other so

(01:14:35):
called expert came along and used his daughter, who was
a different height, to apparently lock herself in the bag.
But it was in the open air, not in the
bath And of course the interesting point it's almost like
what was missing is there were no fingerprints anywhere. Well,
if you're going to you know, why would you know
if you're going to get in a bag and you're

(01:14:57):
going to get in the bathroom, it's going to be
fingerprints somewhere. How's he going to wipe off his fingerprints?
And the answer is obviously that somebody there are a
number of candidates might have actually murdered him. I don't
personally don't think that I six murdered him, but I
have a strong feeling that they might have known who did.

(01:15:21):
And of course what's interesting is there was a parallel case.
It's almost like a drawed a contrast between Stephen Lawrence
and David Coplan case of a Russian dissident called lip Vinenko,
who was murdered, probably by Russian agents. They gave him
some polonium tea to drink and he died of radiation.

(01:15:41):
It's a big issue in the UK. But this issue
is that just doesn't seem to have been the interest
in investigating it. And I, you know, spending a lot
of time analyzing the media at you look at stories
and you think to yourself, why is that in that
paper at that time? And what really fascinated me is

(01:16:05):
in between when he must have died and when his
body was found. And interestingly, the temperature was turned up
in his flat and it was summer, it was August,
it was hot, but of course that will aid the
decomposition of the body. And as I'm sure you know,
a really good, simple non traitable method of killing somebody's

(01:16:27):
injecting them with insulin, whether they're a diabetic or not,
because that then gets metabolized in the body in a
short time, and then trace of it because of course
injulen is naturally produced within the body. And the in
between when he probably died and when his flat was
entered on the Monday, the story came out in the

(01:16:49):
UK media about the person who was then the Foreign Secretary,
William Haig. He used to be leader of the Conservative Party,
and it showed a photograph of him and an un
named male walking along you know, very very close, shall
we say, And the obviously insinuation was that maybe this
was some kind of gay gay relationship. And what was

(01:17:11):
interesting for me is that William Haig, who as having
oversight of m I six was that not you know,
was Williams's nominal boss, was quite an independent minded politician
doing he is now because I think he was then
he was immediately as I was taken off that case

(01:17:31):
because he was spending all of that week trying to
save his marriage. And I thought, daft photo has been
has been had for two years, it's now suddenly come
into the public domain. It's almost like knocking a piece
off the chess board. The Foreign Secretary was knocked off
the chess board as somebody who might take an interest.
But because if I think of the you know, one

(01:17:54):
of the reasons, many reasons why I'm not an anarchist
on the one hand and I'm not a conspiracy thingist
on the other is I'm willing to look at you know,
there are individuals within the Secret State or within the
State at times who act with great integrity and it's
it's unfairred to actually just give a blanket condemnation. You know,

(01:18:15):
the police did that that at the coroner, Fiona Wilcox
said when she closed the inquest, I sixth involvement is
still a line of inquiry and Jackie severe, the highly
competent officer who has taken off the case immediately the
inquest ended, said it is highly likely a third party

(01:18:38):
was involved in Gara's death. So what then happened is
you know I mentioned where you know, one thing can
lead into another. Somebody had never heard of before. Called
Martin Hewitt was a Deputy Assistant Commissioner of Metropolitan Police,
so at far higher rank than her. He suddenly began
talking to the media just as the inquest was ending,

(01:19:01):
and I thought, that's interesting, why he's involved in so
I then and he was the person who then basically said,
without quoting the coroner, who obviously didn't agree, and having
Jackie Severe being bumped off the case because she was
too good a policewoman, I think he said, now there's

(01:19:21):
nothing to see here. We think he died alone. There's
no evidence of anything. And I thought that's interesting, and
I began looking into his history and I found, to
my horror and fascination that his political his police career
had involved setting up a whole shadowy body called the

(01:19:42):
Metropolitan Intelligence Bureau, which is now called the Metropolitan Intelligence Command,
which uncovers, sorry which runs a lot of the police
agents infiltrating political groups and none of this. Nobody has
ever covered the Metropolitan Intelligence Bureau in the media other

(01:20:07):
than us. And then the Rabbel rouser Tommy Robinson, who's
currently former English Defense League. In his book, he mentions
being interviewed by somebody from that group, but nobody else
will cover them. And the Guardian newspaper wins plaudits from
people for uncovering secret police operations, but they're all past ones.

(01:20:29):
I think there's an American phrase called the limited hangout, right,
so they cover all these past operations from units that
are no longer going, and all the liberals read it
over there, over there, Moosley and you know, Venezuelan coffee,
and they're all thinking, and you know, they're all thinking,
oh this is Isn't this terrible? The police doing this

(01:20:52):
and the Guardians exposing it fantastic. But the actual stuff
that's currently going on, the Metropolitan Intelligence come out and
nobody's looking at it. And the Gareth Williams case, there's
a number of kind of every now and then. Now
we have various ex Russian spies or gangsters or is

(01:21:14):
there a difference, I don't know. Who appear in various
tabloids claiming that, you know, he knew who the Russian
spy was in g C h Q and that was
why he was killed. Rather implausible rubbish that we've dissected
and analyzed in the magazine. But that's still I say.

(01:21:34):
I don't think M I six did it, but I
do think that they probably have an idea I assume
might have done it. And even though he's one of
their own they're not very interested talking about it.

Speaker 3 (01:21:50):
Now, you bring up an interesting point you mentioned like
limited hangouts. Now, in your reporting and your investigative work,
have you ever been uncovered infiltration by the intelligence agency
is trying to misdirect you or trying to infiltrate the
story and direct you in a certain way.

Speaker 4 (01:22:06):
Oh yeah, yeah. I get lots of people who, you know,
forgive me leads that don't need anywhere, or diversions or
you know, and we get quite a lot of as
you probably do, quite a lot of abusive emails just
coming out with saying asking us to investigate things that
will turn out turn out to be nothing, you know.

(01:22:29):
And then usually my colleague Heidi is quite combative, shall
we say so Basically I generally leave her to deal
with them, and she usually sees them off. She was
the person who had the exchange with the former council leader.
I think she saw her off too. So it's but

(01:22:51):
the thing is, you know, to be fair, one of
the things that can corrupt decent journalists is that they're
looking into complex areas. They might come across things of
their own volition, and then once they've shown a certain
degree of promise, then the security services will then approach

(01:23:12):
them and say, you know, oh right, here's a little
bit of information, and they might give them, you know,
eight pieces of good information and what and then they'll
slip in one thing that is really dodgy exact, and
the journalist hasn't because they haven't got their independent critical faculties.
They haven't got a means of actually judging which is

(01:23:34):
the eight and which is the one, and then they
can rationalize it to themselves by saying, well, on balance,
most of what I did was good, I think I
don't think. I think I'm probably somebody that the security
services would reably might take a slightly greater interest in
me as a result of this. Is not sure that

(01:23:56):
hopefully the checks in the post. I think think that
they probably realized having looked at my profile, I think
it's quite important that I don't rely on the magazine
for income, which is just as well because it barely
covers its costs. So therefore, whereas my income is all

(01:24:16):
right otherwise from other means or my wonderful wife, so
they probably think my ideas are fixed, They're probably not
going to get anywhere. And I've got two questioning a
mind to be okay, but you know, for me to
be a very useful asset, I hope hopefully.

Speaker 3 (01:24:38):
Well, we got to take a little commercial break with
doctor Larry O'Hara. We've been talking about the nineteen nine
nine London nail bombing, but also to the Garrett Williams
I guess it called the assassination of naked Man in
a better When we come back, i'd like to ask
you about Tommy Robinson and what your opinion of that
whole thing is. I haven't been following it too closely,
but it has made quite a stir over here. And uh,

(01:25:01):
obviously I believe neither one of us would agree with
his politics or his activities up there, but I would
like to hear what you think about his arrest and
and all that. So we'll be right back with more
of a Doctor de Larry O'Hara.

Speaker 1 (01:25:12):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (01:25:13):
The website is Notes from the Borderland Borderland dot co
dot uk and very very well done website, very thoroughly
researched and annotated there with the footnotes galore footnotes going on,
very well researched. Were right back with more of doctor
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Speaker 3 (01:29:59):
Welcome back to the Opperman Report. I'm your host private
investigator at Opperman. We're here with doctor Larry O'Hara and
we're talking about many many things going on over there
in the UK and his publication notes from the Borderland
Borderland dot co dot UK. And I want to thank
you doctor O'Hara for because might screw up last night

(01:30:20):
with the scheduling. Thank you so much. I want the
audience to know what a kind man and a gentleman
of mister O'Hara is. A doctor O'Hara, I had scheduled
we were supposed to take this last night and it's
one am over there in the UK, but obviously one
am would be Wednesday, not Tuesday for everyone else. But
I kind of got a little confused there and I

(01:30:40):
left our friend here hanging last night. But he came
back for us today. So thank you so much, doctor O'Hara. Now,
Tommy Robinson, what can you tell us what's going on?
I'm not I'm not very familiar with this guy, and
from what I understand, you're not allowed to do that
over there right in England. You cannot stand in front
of a courtroom as the defendants are walking in, declaring

(01:31:01):
that they're guilty. And he was arrested for that. Am
I getting this correct?

Speaker 4 (01:31:07):
Yeah? I mean I've not followed it totally, but I
followed it in some detail. I mean, I think there's
a legal aspect and there's the political aspect. As I
understand it, the case that he was commenting on was
one that the judge had previously issued an order that
prohibited reporting from it. And I suppose that is the question.

(01:31:31):
I mean, I don't think there's any doubt that he
is technically he's broken the law in terms of contempt
of court. I think the bigger question to step back
from is to say, well, why as the judge. Why
did the judge issue those that order in the first place. Now,

(01:31:52):
there's two possible reasons, both of which are plausible. The
first reason is the judge might have issued that report
restriction on reporting in order to prevent a trial being prejudiced.
But the other possible reason is the judge might have

(01:32:12):
issued the restriction on reporting to prevent the trial being
reported on because of the nature of the trial. And
of course there that's where you've got law and politics meet,
because although Robinson, I mean, if I would just contrast
it with the trial that's going on now just at

(01:32:34):
this moment of action members that alleged should I say,
there are six neo Nazis who are on trial currently,
charged of membership of a band group, neo Nazi group
called National Action. Now one of them has admitted to

(01:32:55):
pleaded guilty to buying a machete in order to attack
a labor MP. Now that has been all over the
papers today, you know, with a picture of the machete
and him pleading guilty, and yet the trial is still
going on of him and the five others of being

(01:33:18):
members of this group National Action. Now, some people might
say by highlighting in some detail that he's committed pleaded
guilty to this case that probably won't improve the standing
of him or the others in the eyes of the jury,

(01:33:39):
for example. Really, and yet that reporting is allowed. So
I suppose, I mean, you know the reason why Tommy
Robinson is seen as a bit of a He wrote
a very interesting book called Enemy of the State. If
I recall, which, as I've mentioned, which is how he
came up, was the first person I'd ever seen who

(01:34:00):
had mentioned the Metropolitan Intelligence Bureau, and he'd mentioned it
as in fact, he recounts in the book where he
says to my lawyer, there are these people, and nobody
could tell him, Well, if you read our magazine. I
don't know whether he has, but you might now have
time to us. He's in jail. If you read our magazine,
you need find out who they were. So there's a

(01:34:21):
political question about why there was the reporting restriction, and
then there's the narrow legal question that it would appear
that he did the judge told him not to report,
and he did, And I suppose the question is what
the objection against him too. It's probably the reason why

(01:34:43):
the reporting petition was imposed is because the nature of
what he has to say about the crimes and about
the accused is not something that the mainstream media wants
to be broadcast. I think because he's felt it would
harm race relations, and I think that's why the orders

(01:35:05):
have been issued against him.

Speaker 3 (01:35:08):
And the nature of the crime was that these were
Muslim immigrants that were involved in rapes.

Speaker 4 (01:35:14):
Well, it's all allegations, of course, and of course many
of them may well have been born in the UK,
but yet involving in a sexual grooming of of young girls.

Speaker 3 (01:35:25):
Yeah, okay, And is the common over there in the
in England because over here we're not allowed to report
on the names of a victim of sexual abuse of
like a rape victim, you wouldn't be allowed to report
their name. But is a common to have gag orders.
We call it a gag order here. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:35:40):
I mean, I don't think he was mentioning the names
of victims. I could be wrong. I don't think he was, Okay,
I think it's what they I think what it's felt
is there have been a number of scandals in various
towns of sexual abuse of this kind of pattern. I
think the authorities are worried that if that knowledge of

(01:36:03):
that pattern becomes widespread, then that might inflame racial tension.
And of course the counter argument might be that, you know,
the real issue is what happened to these young girls
that you know, is what's happened to them allegedly. Is

(01:36:24):
that less important than maintaining good race relations? You know,
you know, that's a difficult question from the girl's point
of view. I think we know what the answer might be.

Speaker 2 (01:36:37):
Now.

Speaker 3 (01:36:37):
I really enjoyed our interview, and in the pre interview
you mentioned that you've done some reporting on Prince at
the murder or the death of Princess Diana's. One of
the most popular shows ever did was the Death of
Princess Diana, and I had this gentleman on who I
guess he had COPD was at the end of his life.
He had a hard coughing a lot, very hard to
hear him. So I do want to do a show

(01:36:59):
on that again in the future. I'd like to invite
you back for that, which we can go into it
in depth, if that's okay with you.

Speaker 4 (01:37:05):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The only thing is, you know, having
looked at it, he wrote about it briefly in two
thousand and three. I think our current view is that
certainly Diana was you know, under observation by the security
services and so on, and it was definitely what you

(01:37:26):
might call a you know, information clean up organization organized
by I five. But I have yet to be convinced
that it was murder. It could have been, there's there's
evidence to show it could have been. But I think
there's there's a there's a good Scottish verdict in the
Scottish legal system when instead of just having the two

(01:37:49):
binary opposites of innocent or guilty, the Scottish they have
a third one of not proven right. And I think
that's the camp where I mean at present, but I've
it's interesting that every now and then you get a
flurry of stories about that about that issue. It is

(01:38:10):
a fascinating case. But I think I'm in the not
proven camp at the moment, which of course is one
of the reasons why we're probably infuriating to people who
can who think we you know, when we come to
investigate an issue, we don't know in advance exactly what
our conclusion is going to be because we look at

(01:38:32):
the effortence, you know, it's that's the way.

Speaker 3 (01:38:35):
It goes, right, And it's so important to then as
you're investigating something, if your first theory or the first
bits of information you found out turned out to be wrong,
you have to make it your turn and go back.
And I keep trying to prove it's right. You know,
you can't keep going.

Speaker 4 (01:38:52):
Like which, But I mean some of the stuff I've
read on on processed dianas like Looney Tude and stuff.
But you know, there's lots of interesting, fascinating stuff. You know,
it is a whole, really fertile area which we will
probably return to in the magazine at some point, just
to show that we do cover some things that other

(01:39:15):
people are covering. It's just that we'll cover it in
our own way.

Speaker 1 (01:39:19):
Now.

Speaker 3 (01:39:20):
You mentioned also too that you have covered uthology UFOs,
and we don't cover that at all here on this show,
but I'd be interested in what you've come up with.

Speaker 4 (01:39:27):
Well. Strange to say, the reason why I covered uthology,
it probably fits with the idea that truth, or with
the reality the truth is stranger than fiction. Is that
in the early nineteen nineties, we tracked an agent provocateur

(01:39:49):
who's called Tim Heppel, and I wrote a kind of
trilogy of publication about him, and he's simultaneously rated right
wing groups and green groups and anarchist groups, and he
tried to encourage the anarchist groups to set up armed

(01:40:11):
cells and all this kind of stuff. And because I
was aware that he was also simultaneously involved in the
right as well, one of the groups he was trying
to do entrap called Green Anarchist. I contacted them and
I said, do you know this person is If I
were you, I'd be very worthy of doing such and such.

(01:40:32):
This is how you should proceed. But I told them
to get him to communicate by letter, and so he
very kindly sent a load of handwritten letters really connecting himself,
showing he was an agent provocateur. And he did some
really cockaated things about passing hit lists of left wing
targets to right wing people and right wing targets to

(01:40:55):
left wing people. And the reason why I got into
ufology is DRY exposed him. He was working for this
five front magazine Searchlight. After I exposed him in a
two pamphlets called he had a pamphlet called at War
with Society, and I produced a counter called at War

(01:41:16):
with the Truth. And what he did is he disappeared
and then about six years later, after I'd written about him,
he resurfaced using a different name to Matthews in the
uthology movements, even had a book published called UFO Aage
which he was urging U boldists to invade military bases

(01:41:42):
and all this kind of stuff. And I thought, he's
trying the same stunts in this area as he was
in others. So, although it's not something I've a huge
interest in, you go where the evidence is. So we
immersed ourselves in the world of euthology and looked at
all the different theories about the age and hypothesis, the
military hypothesis, the ayliness, all these different things, and you know,

(01:42:07):
became became fascinated by it, and we exposed him again
and then he disappeared from that angle. I don't know
what he's going to be into your next maybe seances,
who knows.

Speaker 3 (01:42:19):
It does seem like there's a lot in the UFO proponents,
like the ones who I can attract a lot of
media attention to themselves and do interviews and hosts shows.
It does appear that there's a lot of charlatism, not
just charlotism though, but also like some kind of a
skull ugly that there's some kind of intelligence manipulation of
that group as well.

Speaker 4 (01:42:41):
Yeah, I mean I think. I mean, if I had
to say, well, you know, what do I think is
the most common explanation for UFOs that's most plausible, I
probably fall on the line of that it's a military
hypothesis that probably military aircraft being tested that they don't
want to talk about. I remember once when I was
in I was in the US, and I was in

(01:43:02):
the Nevada Desert when they were developing I can't quite
remember the was it stealth aircraft? And I was with
an American lady and I was half thinking of photographing
it from the ground. Said oh, no, no, you can't
do that. Oh no, no, you'll you'll be in real
trouble if you do that. So, you know, maybe iinslight,
but certainly the thing is a lot of people are

(01:43:24):
looking for, you know, meaning. I think he said why
people get involved in fringe political groups and some fringe
religious groups. People are looking for meaning in their life
about you know, getting a kind of secret knowledge and
power that nobody else understands. And of course, you know,

(01:43:47):
modern day belief in aliens probably replaced what was in
the Middle Ages. A belief in witches and demons.

Speaker 1 (01:43:54):
You know.

Speaker 4 (01:43:54):
That does seemed to be an interesting, interesting parallel.

Speaker 3 (01:44:00):
It seems like more people have or less people have
faith in God you know, or you know, or religious
faith and than have these other bizarre theories or involent well.

Speaker 4 (01:44:11):
I think it was the I think it was the
writer G. K. Chesterton who said, the more people say
they don't believe in anything, the more they believe in everything.
In other words, they have no means, no crack filter
to actually distinguish between what is you know, what is

(01:44:31):
valid and what is invalid. And articles where the Internet
can can encourage that. It can you know, people getting
too self enclosed hermetic communities that can then incubate strange
ideological viruses a terrifying speed.

Speaker 3 (01:44:49):
And it's so easy to produce a meme with a
picture and a quote and and have it go viral
and be repeated by it and just people just accepted
as fact and just share it the galore all over
the place. I actually had a guest on the show here,
Corey Levitan, who was a local Vegas He just left Vegas,
but he's a local Vegas character and he was he

(01:45:11):
used to do those hoaxes. He did the hoax about
finding semen and sperm inside milk, you know, and all
these other things, and inside energy drinks, and he would
do them, you know, and circulate them and then write
about it how he had created these internet hoaxes.

Speaker 4 (01:45:26):
That was the whole roswell thing, isn't it? And then
his crop circles probably hopes as well.

Speaker 3 (01:45:33):
So what are you working on next over there at
the Borderlands.

Speaker 4 (01:45:38):
Well, we are at the moment. I'm taking a slight
step sideways. I'm writing a book on orthodox Orthodox politics.
But I think we're going to have We're going to
probably cover Copeland again in the in the next issue,
and we're probably going to look at this Quiney interesting

(01:46:00):
debate going on about Britain leaving the EU and not
leaving the EU, So we might be covering We've already
covered that in terms of you know, state infiltration of
Antieu groups in order to do them down in the past.
So I think that's something that we might we might
well return to. Yeah, definitely, And.

Speaker 3 (01:46:20):
You do a lot of work exposing the Searchlight publication
and what have you found there.

Speaker 4 (01:46:24):
Yeah, although in fact I don't think it was primarily US,
but they were in conflict with They had a big
split about about eight years ago, now now it would
be and just at that moment we had you know,
we do get we do have our own human intelligence sources,

(01:46:46):
and we had somebody who was inside at the time
with the split, which is fantastic. So we've got a
load of documentation and evidence from both sides, and then
we published a long article on it. They've largely been
supplanted and sidelined by a group called Hope Lot Hate,
who are a lot more powerful. They've got they've set

(01:47:10):
charitable status, they're rolling in money, and they are very
much a kind of a semi governmental body which is
interested in neutralizing political opposition of any sort and in
fundraising for themselves, but also working very closely with the

(01:47:36):
intelligence services. So in this trial of National Action members,
the chief executive officer and their chief intelligence officer are
both giving evidence as prosecution witnesses. So so, in other words,
blurring the boundary between reporting on things. And you know,

(01:47:59):
obviously it won't it won't come out in court, but
I have a suspicion that you know, wherever those organizations
are involved, then asgen provocateurs aren't far behind, you know, definitely,
but that won't come out in course.

Speaker 3 (01:48:16):
Doctor, we're out of time, but can you what would
you like to leave us with and then also tell
the audience where they could find you if they want
to get a hold of that kind of stuff.

Speaker 4 (01:48:25):
Well, we have, as you mentioned, the website www dot
Borderland dot co dot uk. My inimitable colleague, Heidi responds
to emails at NFB magazine at Yahoo dot co dot uk,

(01:48:46):
so she generally filters things first before they come through
to me, and if anybody's got any sort of evidence
or stories, then contact us and we'll have a look.
And if you feel you want to subscribe to the magazine.
One thing I would say is that people once they
look at one issue, it takes them around three weeks

(01:49:06):
to read it, and then they usually come back and
they order all the back issues because it's kind of
addictive in a good way. I'll leave you with that lot.

Speaker 3 (01:49:15):
Very thorough reporting for sure. How much is a subscription
to the magazine?

Speaker 4 (01:49:19):
Well, unfortunately, I think from the US other figures off
the top of my hand, because criminally the UK government's
abolished printed paper rate, it's probably quite a bit. You know,
I don't know, like maybe about ten dollars for a magazine,
but we do have them available as a PDF downloads

(01:49:42):
as well, which is not as good as the printed thing.
But yeah, but if people visit the website and it's
on there, but it's a lack of printed paper rate,
that's a real big issue because you used to be
able to send publications overseas for quite a cheap rate.
Because that's been got for the last few years. I

(01:50:02):
blame the last good one for that.

Speaker 3 (01:50:03):
Okay, doctor o'harah, thank you so much.

Speaker 4 (01:50:06):
Okay, got it.

Speaker 3 (01:50:09):
Okay, there we had the doctor Larry O'Hara, were talked
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very very inexpensive, and they're also played in the Opperman
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(01:53:12):
It's as cheap as six dollars a month, twenty dollars
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contact me directly at Opperman Report at gmail dot com.
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when you get a discount if you paypound me directly
and you can get a copy of my book. I
want to thank William Ramsey who helps us produce the
show and book guests. You can find William Ramsey, who's
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Speaker 3 (01:54:28):
Okay, welcome back to the Opperaman Report. I'm your host,
private investigator at Opperaman. I want to take our guest,
doctor Larry O'Hara, and we're talking about the nineteen ninety
nine London nail bombings initially a little bit of everything.
And his magazine here that you can purchase is called Notes.

Speaker 1 (01:54:49):
What is it say?

Speaker 3 (01:54:49):
Notes from the Borderland and at Borderland dot co dot UK.
I like his reporting, very solver reporting, very thorough research
on here. Like you said, this is something you know,
you don't want sit down and really read this stuff,
and it would come in handy to having their magazine format.
You don't have to read it scrolling up and down
on the internet, Karen, around a big heavy computer or
everywhere you go. Just carry a little magazine. Okay, said

(01:55:12):
doctor Larry O'Hara. And by the way, too, I want
to thank them to again because like I said, we
had them scheduled last night and I had this little
mix up and then today I had had this nightmare
day today fixing the cable modem and going down a coxcable.
They don't want to wait online down there and then
bring it back. And it didn't work, and I couldn't
call them up because now my phone and cable doesn't work,

(01:55:33):
I can't get all of them. So I'd actually drive
over there again a second time. It was a nightmare.
There's a nightmare. I hope they will die. Okay, So anyway,
our new sponsor at cartking dot com. Check them out.
I haven't had a chance to record an ed with
good oldcartking dot com. That's KRT dash king dot com
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(01:55:54):
seven seven one. Now let's see you haven't already have
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advertising vehicle as well too. You can buy one of
these carts. You tell what your ideas, how you want
it design. They'll help you design it. They ship it worldwide,
so you don't have to worry about that. They build
it for you. They ship it worldwide, and you can

(01:56:14):
rent space, like I said, in an airport or a
mall shopping mall to advertise you have a real estate
business to use it as an advertised. People walk by
either they get your brochure, they look at the houses
for sale. You take your cart down, you put in
the garage, you put it back up a couple of
months later and maybe in a different mall, until you
get associare you a new business. So it doesn't just

(01:56:35):
have to be like the coffee business or the beeper
company like I had from a kiosk in a mall
that I had many many years. And it wasn't this
easy back in those days. To get a chiosk built,
you to hire an architect first and then interview a
couple of different builders and fabricators and then have it
built custom built for you pretty much. So this is great.
You can go on a website and have these guys

(01:56:55):
design it for just tell what you have in mind.
It seems like they've built thousands and thousands. I'm going
to be interviewing the owner of the company Karkking dot com.
We'll do a little interview with them to get a
hold of them on the show here and what do
you call it? You'll describe how things work. So once again,
thank you Larry O'Hara. If you like these shows, there's
gonna be a wrap up show about this as a

(01:57:16):
commentary about thirty minutes in the Members section at Oppermanreport
dot com. I'm gonna be talking about my discussion with
Larry here. I made little notes different things I want
to talk about. We were talking about sensationalism in the media.
I want to be talking about Project Veritas, which he
described how these public search lines stuff like that seems
to be getting funding some same place. So we'll be

(01:57:37):
talking about how Project Veritas seems to be getting a
ton of funding, the different things, the intelligence, misdirections and
infiltration and reporting. So that'll be in our member section
at Oppermanreport dot com, where we have about one hundred
and twenty shows. People will get it said. There's an
additional one hundred and twenty shows in the member section.
It's not just the commentaries. It's not just the stuff

(01:57:57):
that you find on YouTube and sprinkering iTunes that that
free stuff, or the stuff you're here live on the radio.
This is extra content that you can only find, you
can only get if you go to the members section
become a member. Extra exclusive content. There's also videos in
there of the there's court documents. There's a ton of
court documents photographs, all my Chippendale's photos when I used
to be a Chippendale's dancer. Did you know that all

(01:58:19):
my nude photos are in there? So you can get
them at opperman Report dot com. It's an adult site
which you can get it there. It's all in there
Oppermenreport dot com. So thank you so much. Thank you
Shane out there who does my audio enhancement. And thank
you Graham who helped them book this guest here. He's
been helping us with a lot of guests here, doctor Larry.

(01:59:14):
Once they're locked in that car that you think they
got to listen to the show. iHeart iTunes, speaker, uh, podbean, podcast, YouTube,
all that stuff played everywhere, if all over place, you
can't miss the show. Ten different internet stations People's Incident Radio,
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(01:59:37):
prices to advertising the show. And that's how you help
support the show. Also become a member Operamandreport dot com.
All contact me for a discount Operaman Report at gmail
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looking forward to being Starckborow's characters.

Speaker 1 (01:59:51):
You got me locked up with www.

Speaker 3 (01:59:54):
Elite darkisour dot com. It's a O I T. E.
Will have his book in the Operaman Report Book Store
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