Empire City Under Siege - Three Decades of New York FBI Field Office Manhunts, Murders, and Mafia Wa
January 9, 2026 • 54 mins
Empire City Under Siege shares true stories of an FBI Special Agent spanning three tumultuous decades in New York City, beginning in the gritty 1970s when law enforcement refused to let their city be consumed by corruption and violence. Starting as an undercover operative investigating Mafia hijackers in Red Hook, Anthony John Nelson offers a gripping insider’s look at the bureau’s largest field office during one of its most transformative eras.
From narcotics stings in Miami during the height of the Cocaine Cowboys to international manhunts, stolen Picassos, and late-night rides through Mafia hotspots with NYPD legend Kenneth “Kenny” McCabe, Nelson recounts some of the most impactful cases of the pre-Internet age. Each chapter pulls back the curtain on the dangers, strategies, and sacrifices behind the headlines.
Featuring first-hand accounts from agents, officers, and prosecutors, this book honors the courage and commitment of those who fought to restore order, protect the innocent, and reclaim a city once on the brink.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-opperman-report--1198501/support.
From narcotics stings in Miami during the height of the Cocaine Cowboys to international manhunts, stolen Picassos, and late-night rides through Mafia hotspots with NYPD legend Kenneth “Kenny” McCabe, Nelson recounts some of the most impactful cases of the pre-Internet age. Each chapter pulls back the curtain on the dangers, strategies, and sacrifices behind the headlines.
Featuring first-hand accounts from agents, officers, and prosecutors, this book honors the courage and commitment of those who fought to restore order, protect the innocent, and reclaim a city once on the brink.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-opperman-report--1198501/support.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
It's the Opperman Report, and now here is investigator Ed Opperman.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Okay, welcome to the Opperman Report. I'm your host, private
investigator Ed Opperman. Now you can get a hold of
me at Opperman Investigations and Digital for instant consulting if
you reach out to me through my email Opperman Investigations
at gmail dot com. Today's show brings back good old memories.
It's from the Brooklyn, New York City, the gritty nineteen seventies,
(00:31):
as it says to this description here the organized crime
cases back in Brooklyn, New York City, and FBI agents
and stuff like that. Empire City under siege, three decades
of New York FBI Field Office, manhunts, murders and mafia wars.
We have the author Craig McGuire and if you check
him out, this guy's a noted author at Wild Blue Press.
(00:55):
You can check him out a wild Blue press dot com.
His previous books are Carmine and the Thirteenth Avenue Boys
about organized crime, the Columbo Family which is notorious from
Brooklyn and Brooklyn's Most Wanted, the Top one hundred Criminals,
Trucks and creeps from the County of Kings I wonder
if my name is in there the top one hundred criminals.
If it was a little bit one hundred and one,
(01:15):
I might be in here. Mister Craig McGuire, are you there?
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Yes, Ed, how are you? Good morning? And thank you
for having me on your show?
Speaker 2 (01:23):
No, thank you man, and thank you to stand on.
If you heard my intro, those people they run for
the hills before we get into your book here Empire
City under Siege. Who is Craig McGuire.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
I am a Brooklyn born journalist, editor, content creator and
true crime author. Grew up one and raised in Brooklyn
and covered on a number of subjects. I cut my
teeth at the Bay News, so I was a beat
reporter four years, got into magazines and eventually books. Empire
(01:57):
under Siege is just a fantastic ernie that I had
with a former Supervisor's special agent, Anthony John Nelson, who
was also born in Breton, Brooklyn. Uh And it's kind
of the theme that works its way through many of
my works.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
And what part of Brooklyn? I grew up in the Bronx,
so we're natural enemies. But what part of Brooklyn are
you from?
Speaker 1 (02:22):
I grew I was born in Green Point, grew up
in Bedston Hurst and Bath Beach, and then I was
in Staten alf for several raised my kids from Staten Island,
and now I reside in New Jersey. It's kind of
a common migration force.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Mister McGuire. I am also from Staten Island. I used
to own front page peepers in the Staten Island mall
if you might remember that. Of course you do remember,
say you probably owe me money on a paper bill,
mister McGuire, I'm here to collect.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
Okay, all right, I'm from Staten Island too. I left there.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
I went to Vegas and now semi retirement.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
Uh what's what are we going to find here? In
this book? Empire City under Siege.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
For starters, this is like it's a collection of really
good stories about Anthony John Nelson, who started the FBI
in nineteen sixty nine various support positions, both mostly forward
to midnight shifts as radio dispatcher electronics technician before he
(03:29):
was sworn in as a special agent in nineteen seventy
six and entered the FBI Academy at Quantico, graduated in
seventy seven, and then it was assigned to the New
York field office. And this was this is new as
you mentioned before, this is you know, gritty New York
of the nineteen seventies where crime spiked. I think at
(03:51):
one point the murder rate rose to like five murders
per day nationwide, there were nearly three thousand bombings. This
is when organized crime is really cementing strangleholds over so
many different industries and aspects of life. You know, massive
epidemic in in hijackings, UH and and and anthony you know,
(04:13):
plunges into this UH into this really amazing historical period
where New York is really sort of the microcosm for
all these different UH trends in law enforcement and criminality
you know, across the country.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
You know, that's so true.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
You talk about back in the seventies that that's when
New York City organized crime was really at their at
their peak of power. But there was also a lot
of corruption too in an NYPD and and a lot
of guys would retire from FBI and then go work
for criminal defense for organized crime.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Any any information like that in the book.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Uh, yes, there are several corruption cases see interestingly in
in in New York. As an agent, you know, you
cover such a wide range of crimes. When Anthony first
came out, he was an undercover operative uh in organized
crime who actually ran a uh uh a warehouse, an
(05:16):
organized crime affiliated warehouse in Red Hook. And and the
fact he grew up in Red Hook and neighboring park slope.
Uh so he really could walk walk the walk and
talk the talk. Uh and then throughout his career hostage negotiations,
you know, extortions, uh even uh you know violent attacks
(05:38):
aren't airlines, you know, bank robberies, uh, undercovered drug buys.
Where he was you know, posing as as an organized
crime figure from New York going down to uh South Florida,
and this is this is South Florida of the cocaine
cowboys era. It's all of these uh different types of
(05:59):
crimes that really pulled together this rich tapestry. And and
and a lot several of his of his cases, especially
some of the undercover cases and the earlier cases, uh,
were featured throughout New York media. Uh so you have
some really provocative photos from when he recovered uh some
stolen picassos of all things, where he one of his
(06:20):
informants overheard uh that uh, some organized crime figures are
having difficulty unloading some stolen Picassos, and he recovered was
he was able to recover them from uh uh a
an abandoned car parked on a street in Queens. Uh
So that was a pretty provocative image, just such great material.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
But oh wait, wait, wait they had a stolen Picasso
was left in an abandoned car.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Picasso and some matize in in the backseat of an
abandoned car in Queens. Now, if you think about you know,
the recent uh robbery at the Louver and and and
the fact that uh they still have I believe they
still have not recovered those Crown jewels. You know, you
look at some of these crimes and you know the
(07:08):
dramatic consequences uh that can ensue.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
Yeah, you know, I've had.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
On the show a few times Turbo Paul, the art
hostage who's was a former art thief himself from a
UK and now negotiates with the insurance companies, you know
broker's stolen art deals and gets them.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
Back in the circulation.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
And I gotta tell you, man, it's really amazing how
really easy it is to steal this art. Man, there's
a lot of stolen art going around and then it
also do with the art too, with a lot of
money laundering going through the art. But now, how did
they find it in the back of this car?
Speaker 3 (07:43):
They got a tip?
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
You know, one of one of the one of the
strategies that the FBI historically has applied uh to great
success is the cultivation of informants, confidential informance in order
or two sort of unravel larger criminal enterprises. UH. And
and Anthony was very And that's sort of a double
(08:08):
edged sword, right, because you're dealing with these nefarious criminals
who have ulterior motives in some instances, you know, they
actually you know, have fantasy that they're an extension of
law enforcement. So it could be very problematic. Uh. And
there's also a trust uh factor. Anthony was just highly
successful at cultivating uh uh informants and this is just
(08:32):
one of many UH stories in the book that exemplify that,
you know, where he got the tip and uh was
able to recover the stolen artwork.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
Yeah, that's a good question.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
What is Anthony how does he feel about these this
informant process that we have. Well, you know, and there's
really you got pretty bad guys. You know, they're they're
not there but then they make a deal, you know,
and they're dealing with the probation departments pretty much just
a performant that operation, and but then they're out there
committing more crimes. What does he think about that? I
think that system needs to be overhauled. What does Anthony
(09:07):
and John Nelson think about this?
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Uh? More importantly, it's it's when it's not applied properly.
UH is where you have where where where you have
issues like UH a law enforce, law enforcement professional like
Anthony Nelson, UH, which really built his his career on
integrity and trust and how you conduct yourself and that
(09:31):
that that that includes UH in his dealings with confidential informants.
So that was UH, it's it's a different dynamic. So
you you you build that level of trust. But then
it's also you know, you are a member of law
enforcement and you can't turn a blind guy. You have
(09:52):
to be able to anticipate, evaluate, uh and be able
to manage each each circumstance, each informant, you know, effectively.
Because it's also an extension of you know, protecting the
public trust.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Yeah, because you hear about these famous cases like Whitey
Bulderness said, all look at this guy was they will
let him go, and you know, they let him do
whatever he wanted because he was an informant. But the
day to day cases where you see these guys again, yeah,
I am Tory, no dirtbags too, man, Just can't they
get arrested over and over and over. And we were
just dealing with a guy recently who is his daily
routine was to go down to the local convenience store
(10:29):
and strong armed that the eighteen year old girl behind
the counter and stealing his food. You know, he's gotta
arrested over and over and over again. And but because
he was giving them street information, they let him out
over and over. Like the guy's menace to society is
worse than you can get. What if your daughter's working
in that little supermark, that little bookdaga, you know, and
(10:51):
you got to deal with a character like that. Something
has to be done about this album.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
I will say one thing that I was eye opening
for me was like, these aren't just wild guns that
are out there operating independently, especially at the FBI. I understand.
It's it's a sort, it's it's a system, it's it's necessary.
It's too develop informasts. You have to have that level
level of intelligence at the street level and as you
(11:17):
go up to build cases. UH. But at the same time,
it's something that they're very much aware of the the
possibility that it can for corruption, uh, for also just
for mismanagement. So they're constantly looking at and evolving their practices, policies, procedures.
(11:38):
And it's another thing that's a constant theme through the book.
You know, the challenge, just the challenges and technology, you know,
that sort of inhibited cooperation. UH. When you don't have
sexualized databases, when you don't have the level of communications
technologies that you have today, when each investigator has to
go from jurisdiction to juristic to knit to manually knit
(12:02):
together trends and different criminal networks, it makes it much
more challenging. The fact that the FBI has has led
uh the evolution and uh in technology and application of technology.
We look at that through you know, some of the
cases that Anthony had, so like rushing to a hostage
(12:25):
crisis where uh, you know, seconds matter uh, and but
you don't have any way to establish that critical uh
communications up front other than knocking on the neighbor's door
and asking to use a phone or he's and one thing.
It's it's like these little details that really jump out
(12:45):
at me where he's saying, just better make sure that
I have a pockets full of quarters. And then he
sends the agent to run down the block to find
a payphone that's working. It's just these nowadays, these things
that take it for granted. But he he would say, uh,
you don't know what you do. You can't miss what
you don't know.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
When did Nelson retire?
Speaker 1 (13:10):
I uh, I would have probably uh in early early
two thousands. Uh. But remember he also after he retired
from the FBI, he's uh, he served several years in
the Brooklyn District Attorney's Special Investigation.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Sunit okay, gotcha because because just if he was around
in the seventies, like he said, with a pocket full quarters, right, yeah,
oh yeah, I know I was running into it a
pocket phone quarters really even even after I had a
cell phone. It had her cell phone early on, but
what do you call it? The U?
Speaker 3 (13:42):
And nowadays you're right, he's racing to a hostage scene.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Now they got these license plate readers, so he just
get the guy's plate number. You know where he's been
in the past ten years.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
You know where this guy's is.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Yeah, oh, and they get ping his cell phone. You
gotta hold a cell phone. You can get as always
a data where you know every place, where he gets
his coffee in the morning, where he goes to the jim,
you get everything, what cars he's been in. Just what
a difference man, You're right from the seventies today. But
I was wondering before though, Craig McGuire, now, because you
(14:13):
wrote this other book about the local Brooklyn organized crime
guys of Columbo family, how do how do you get
involved in all this?
Speaker 1 (14:19):
What?
Speaker 2 (14:20):
How were you brushing against these guys growing up? How
do you what was your interest in the connection to
all this?
Speaker 1 (14:25):
The you know, when when you grow up in Brooklyn
you have a wide cross section of friends.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
You can't help.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
But yeah, thats just you know, you're you're, you're, it's
it's just an amazing uh you know, culture of different personalities.
And I was actually I worked on one book, uh
that fell apart, but the the the detective Tommy Davis,
who's a legendary detective NYPD. He connected me with Carmine
(14:55):
over COVID and uh we and and actually carm I
who operated on Thirteenth Avenue, which was like three blocks
from my house. So I'm very acquainted with the whole
with the culture, with the setting, with the time period,
even though I'm much younger. And then through through that book,
which which was pretty successful, Tommy introduced me to some
(15:17):
other members of law enforcement. I had another book that
unfortunately fell through, and then one day but Anthony was
offered to be a consultant on that project. And it
really struck me because the most important thing that Anthony
wanted to get across in this in this book was
just to reflect on the positive contributions of law enforcement
(15:40):
in general and how too often today that's taken for granted,
or law enforcement is unfortunately posed overwhelmingly in a negative light,
which I don't think is fair or accurate. And he
also wanted to shed some light on some of his
colleagues in law enforcement, not just the FBI. There's a
lot of folk in the NYPD that are featured in
(16:02):
the book. So I'm sitting there having breakfast with his
lovely wife, Cindy and Anthony, and he's showing me clip
after clip and and I was like, there's a book here. Uh.
He was really reluctant UH to to share more of this,
but UH, God bless Cindy was able to help me
convince him. And I have to tell you Ed it
(16:23):
was it was kind of like night and day. When
you're working with a former UH enforcer Bookie UH for
UH for the Columbo family, and then to work with
with a retired member of law enforcement. It's a totally
different dynamic and it impacts everything from research to UH
(16:44):
follow ups. And the interesting thing that really jumped out
at me. I interviewed several members of law enforcement and
just some some really remarkable legendary characters. UH. And every
time I had a follow up, you know, I did
the interview, preps, share the transcript, maybe had a follow
up question. It was a data point. Most important. We
had to make sure move heaven and art to get
(17:06):
everything accurate as we could. I would I would give
them time and say, UH, get back to me in
a couple of weeks, so by next month, there's no
rush to UH to a person. Every single one of
them would drop everything. UH be so accommodating, halt vacations,
UH and just it be so responsive. And that's not
(17:27):
really the experience that I had with the uh former
members of orchidised crime who were a little bit less uh.
And it was just and it made me think like,
as uh, these these these members of law enforcement existing
and retarded. They they they're different types of people. They
(17:48):
operated a different level, you know, the level of thoroughness
and articulation and accuracy, attention to detail, uh, hustle. It's
just it was. It's pretty remarkable and I just appreciate everything,
all their contributions.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
I can remember working with this PI back and then
when I was in stan Allen and when he was
a cop. He used to like his name was Jerry Rude.
It was a famous the cop and famous PI and
what do you call it? The he would hide like
in a garbage can to do surveillance on people, you know,
and then as the guy's walking by, he jumps out
(18:27):
of the garbage can to arrest him. I remember the
first time I ever went to shake hands with him,
I had a cast on my right hand, so I
went to shake hands with him with my left hand
and he reached for his gun to his arms.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
And then take it to jump on him.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
You know.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
But I want to go back to some of you
said before you're talking about Anthony Nelson that what do
you call it? A He would show you clips and
was this video clips or newspaper clips?
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Newspaper clips? Uh, because I tell you he was. He
It's there's another thing that that I noticed. Well, you know,
we're with these members of law enforcement. You know, I
don't they tend to get a little bit I don't
know if it desensitizes the right word, but you know
(19:12):
a lot of times they didn't realize the gravity of
some of the things that we were discussing. Just some
of the cases and some of the bravery. It's almost
like second nature to them. So Anthony would talk about
you know, he pulled out I think he pulled out
a clipping of the bones case in Brooklyn where you
had members of the proprietors of a funeral home and
(19:33):
mortuary that was on the black market. We're selling you know,
contaminated body parts. And I remember that case, and I
remember how dramatic it was, and there's just it's it's
case after case. You know, he was friends with the
federal de agent Everett Hatcher who was assassinated. You know,
(19:57):
he also worked at kidnapping and.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Marcis Gus s Faracci case right, Yes.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
The.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Governor's Island bomb plot. You know, so and and you
know he was an investigator and he worked with the
whole uh army of other investigators. Uh take down the
Themeo gang. You know the when when they tried to
smuggle I think it was uh uh veal palm or
chicken palm. It's a prison for John Gotti.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Uh yeah, yeah, yeah, And that's what that's what caused
all the problems. And it was MDC or MCC, but
that's what caused a big crackdown. You used to be
able to sneak stuff into to the defendants, but then God,
he screwed it up for everybody exactly.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
And it's just case after ca and you're just blown
away by one of these, like as he's pulling out
and as we're talking about this, sometimes Anthony would say, Craig,
do you think readers would be interested in this? And
I'm and I'm falling out of my chair. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
I remember sitting in and I was talking about the
p I off there. I was sitting in his office
and he was telling me how they would smuggle in salamis,
slices of salami in the tie boxes because you could
bring him in the suits to work of court. Okay,
so then guy, these ties would smell like salami in court,
he said, the dapper don stinking like salami. Oh wow,
(21:23):
I know, man, I know, great stuff. No, but I
want to hear what did you're saying that Anthony Nelson
was involved in the gust Farronchi case.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
He was friends with UH with like the the DA
is also part of the Justice Department, so and and
and uh every hatcher was UH an investigator active in
the New York area. And they also had sort of
the they had shared interest in UH uh the National
(21:52):
Guard UH and and they established a friendship. And actually
like a week before he was at a social event
with his kids. Were there, average average children were there,
And then Anthony was on scene unfortunately in in Staten Island.
I believe it was the West Or Expressway when they
when when they recovered the body. And if you've ever
(22:13):
been on that part of uh Statena, that really is
the end of the that is the end of the earth.
So it's and it's all these little vignettes UH of Anthony,
and he's he's the first one to tell you that
a lot of these cases, these major cases that he
was involved with, he was contributing intelligence. So maybe he
(22:34):
wasn't the one doing the interrogation or he wasn't the
one making the arrest, but he was involved in in
an era where you saw increasing collaboration. And that's another
theme in the book that I don't think is really explored.
You know, obviously there's you know, personality conflicts, you know,
or interagency rivalries, but during this era, just you know,
(22:57):
facilitated by UH technology, by increasing sophistication of these agencies,
new legal statutes like RICO, like changes and provacy law
that sort of encouraged collaboration. And there was a lot
of collaborations, including like the rise of all these joint
(23:17):
task forces that were highly successful. And Anthony had some
really slice of life and then some of the other
folks I interviewed has some really great slice of life
anecdotes of you know how you had all these straight
laced FBI college guys, and then you had all these
these rough and ready NYPD detectives and then you put
them all in a room six each and then within
(23:41):
a week or so, you can't really tell who's who.
So which it's very inspiring.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
You had mentioned before how he grew up in Red Hook, right,
and then later on went to work as undercover, and
so much, especially back in oose days, was a word
of mouth with the organ of crime guys was you
didn't have these databases and stuff like that. They had
access to p I s and stuff, but not the
kind of database that we have today. And so it
was a lot of everyone knew each other, you know,
(24:11):
so you you looked.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Into people's background and stuff.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Did he, ever, when he was undercover have his cover
blown because he grew.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
Up in the neighborhood.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
It's interesting that you you you mentioned that. So when
he came out, remember this is he's he's a child
of the fifties, uh and early sixties, and he he
was in red Hook very early. He came home from
the hospital at Red Oak. It's a Red Hook but
then the family moved to Park Slope. So and initially
(24:42):
in his career, in his uh, in his career, it
served him well because you know, he he did. He
didn't he seemed like an insart. He didn't talk like
an outsidery he you know, he had the general he
carried himself well. He understood Italian to carry a a
rudimentary conversation, and he just had that that that Brooklyn
(25:03):
vibe about him. So he was able to manage this
uh this warehouse supposedly uh uh a mob affiliated warehouse
where he sort of had first ride a refusal uh
when they came in. It wasn't a high traffic spot.
But then uh as he as his career progressed and
(25:24):
he became more visible, including he would go on these
the these night rides with this this really famous uh
detective uh Kenny McCabe. You know, it got to the
point where uh he had to hang up the the
undercover work. Now also remember he was there were a
couple there were a number of cases where he would
(25:46):
be posing as a Gambino associated and he'd have to
go to Fort Lauderdale or or Miami uh for to
do uh undercovered drug buys. Uh. So again, you know
it it's a very unforgiving atmosphere, and then you have
these these criminals are highly superstitious, and you know, he
(26:14):
realized that he had to wind that down. But also
he was also increasing his responsibility because he was such
an amazing investigator and leader of other members. So he
took on some squads and he eventually elevated to be
a supervisory special agent.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
So you mentioned Kenneth Kenny McCabe who was NYPD, and
mister Nelson there was FBI. So how did they hook
up together? And talks more about Kenny McCabe, What.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Was his story.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Kenny McCabe is one of these like rare characters in
law enforcement. He was a member of the New York
City Police Department and detective for eighteen years, mostly as
a detective assigned to the Broken dis Strig Attorney's Office,
and then for I believe twenty years he was an
(27:06):
organized crime investigator for the US Attorney's Office. To say
Kenny McKay was the was law enforcement's most effective weapon
against organized crime in the latter half of the twentieth
century would be an understatement. He had a sort of
(27:26):
encyclopedic knowledge of criminals and not only who they who
they were, and who they were affiliated, were their whole
criminal network, like their whole families. And this is pre databases,
this is where any of that was really in use.
(27:46):
So early on, I think it was seventy seven Anthony's
gets a tip from an informant, I could have been
sheeps at Bay and he's scouting it out. I think
it was not a robbery, was hijacking. So then he's
on site scouting in at and then he sees this
detective who he kind of thinks he and then later
(28:07):
in the day he gets an introduction to Kenny mccab
So they that's the they joined for forces, and they're
they're able to recover the hijacking, and then what grows
is this amazing friendship. I mean, they're both Brooklyn guys.
The thing about Kenny McCabe is there's very little media
on him. Like during that era where you had a
(28:28):
lot of you know, you had really the rise in
sort of this urban organized crime reporting, you know, and
the big press releases and the purp walks, Like Kenny
McCabe wasn't involved with any of that, even though he
was critical to so many of these investigations. So you
don't have as a content producer, you see, there's only
(28:49):
so much you could do with b roll. If you
don't have any actual historical footage, if you don't have pictures,
it all kind of falls apart. So this is one
character that really hasn't gotten that sort of media treatment
that he deserves. I do know his son, Duke McCabe
is trying valiantly, and I do think something's gonna come,
and I wish him the best of luck at that.
(29:10):
So now we're in the late seventies and you have
these two Brooklyn members of law enforcement, ones in the NYPD,
the other one ones in the FBI. So what do
they do at night after shifts? Now, Lincoln, I'm sorry,
Anthony drove a Plymouth Grand Fury with the full police package.
(29:31):
And if you know the vehicle like this, nothing screams
Cotmobile more than the Grand Fury. So what they what
what what started and went on for decades is they
would just go from and make themselves very conspicuous, go
from organized crime clubhouse, the cafe, and just cover that.
(29:54):
They used to be hundreds of them spread all throughout
Brooklyn Queens and they would just out him, go take pictures,
capture license plates, see who's coming in and out. And
what develops is just this amazing collection of stories and
and and and and Kenny was doing this by himself,
(30:14):
Like there's a story in the book where his son
was a basketball star Saverian in bay Ridge, and when
when his son would have away games. Uh his and
his father would take him to the to the basketball game,
you know, before or after they would swing by any
any uh you know uh OC social clubs in the area.
(30:35):
So it's really that that dedication to this, to not
just these battles, this war against uh organized crimes are fascinating.
And one of my favorite stories in the book is
you have so there's UH Anthony's driving the Grand Fury
and you have Kenny McCabe always writing shotgun with the
(30:56):
with his camera and his pen and paper at the ready.
Also uh NYPD detective Ron Cadeautz in the back seat,
and they're on they're in the middle of Bens and
hers by multiple social clubs, and they they're they're on
eighty six Street, large thoroughfare going by either fourteenth or
fifteenth Avenue, stopped at the light, and they look over
(31:17):
in this in this in this car lot, and in
the the doors and windows are open in the in
the office and there's dozens of organized crime members in there.
And then somebody shouts out McCabe and then like rats
from a sinking ship, they're they're just jumping over windows,
over fences to get away. Kenny McCabe's walking shouting out
(31:39):
their names as he's writing them down to later hands
off to their prole off the officers to violate them.
It's just I mean, it just jumps off the page
to me.
Speaker 3 (31:51):
Yeah, the good old days. It's just so different now.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
You know.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Now, what about you mentioned in the book. It's in
the title Mafia war is what what mafia wars? The
one thing I could pick of it was the little
lickey scarfoon in Philadelphia.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Oh, you had the war really refers to the war
law enforcement and taking down all the all the different
five families. So you had Anthony Kenny McCabe, so many
others profiled in the book. Frank Pergola. It just going
(32:28):
through all the different investigations that led up to all
these seminole cases. This is the Windows case, the Commission case.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
I remember the Windows case. That that was the always
get confused. The chin Giganti was Jenevie's right or Lucese
Jenevie's yes, And that was the Windows case.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
Tell us about that they had a contract with the
schools in New York City schools.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Yeah, like so many of these other building unions. It
was the organized crime tax where they were able to
apply you know, pennies two. They also did it with gasoline, uh,
with the unions. It's just people don't realize. Like in
that era. One of the common myths is how organized
crime supposedly protected when in actuality they increased the tax
(33:17):
across all businesses and also flooded the streets with drugs,
you know, and and a lot of this comes up
in the book. You know, Anthony lived not far from
the Gemini Lounge. This was the infamous clubhouse of Roy
de Mayo and his crew where they you know, likely
(33:39):
murdered upwards of one hundred victims and dismembered them and
then dispatched them in the Fountain Dump or some other places.
But all throughout, so it wasn't just And this is
why the use of confidential informants to put together all
(33:59):
of the crow times and the relationships, you know, to
build these massive cases, which is something they historically were
unable to do. The wire tapping began to evolve also
the way in which they conducted investigations, the way and
they processed leads, the way interagency collaboration like remember you
(34:22):
have dea secret service, local law enforcement FBI just all
coming together from different angles. And I don't think that allowed.
That story has really been told too much.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
You mentioned wiretapping, okay, and one of the things we
would do is counter surveillance that I would actually crawl
around in the accentstead of looking for wires, they've looking
for bugs and stuff like that. But when you looked
it up, like the FBI in New York State or
New York City only had like a hundred authorized wire
taps and the rest were all just done. I guess
(35:00):
you might use the expression for daisy wires apps did
mister Nelson or mister McKay, but describe any of that
that they were just doing their own wire taps.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
Uh, No, like anything, it would operate like that just
because it would threatening investigation. And uh, really the larger
challenge was in the technology itself. You know where I'm
sure you remember, you know, years ago there was a
radio shack on every other corner. Uh So there's there's
a story in the book where you know, you had, uh,
(35:34):
the organized crime figures, you know, became very adept at
being able to circumvent UH wires to some extent. You know,
they realized that they were able to realize that. Uh.
For example, when when a conversation started, uh, the whoever
was listening in in law enforcement, after a certain amount
of time, if they're not talking you know, criminal business,
(35:56):
you had to shut it off. So they would talk
about recipes and all this. Then. But then also you
had some some of these colorful characters Anthony brings up.
They would go to radio check and they would pick
up the scanners and they would be able to pick
up uh if there was a listening device nearby. So
you had this constant cat and mouse game. But really, uh,
(36:20):
it all got there. It came down to the integrity
of the investigation, the privacy laws where you would have
to get the uh, get get a warrant from a
judge uh, and do it the right way and set
it up because the last thing you wanted to do
was produce evidence that would fall apart and take down
a whole case because you gathered it illegally.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
Yeah, they would have, like you said, r F RF
transmitter if it was a radio frequency transmitter. If the
bug was a radio frequency transmitter, there were all kinds
of devices you could buy, like these wands that would
pick up the RF signal. And you could even listen
in you know, you could hear, you could talk on here.
But the other one was too is they had these
infinity transmitters that you can put on a telephone. So
what these guys would do is they would take the
(37:03):
phone if they're in a room, they would unscrew the mouthpiece.
Speaker 3 (37:07):
On the phone.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
Because how it worked was it was like they called
it a harmonica tap or an infinity transmitter, that you
would dial the guy's number, that the fac I could
dial the guy's number, and before the last digit, they
would push this tone through the line and that telephone
would become a microphone for the room. So before these
guys would talk, they would unscrew the mouthpiece on the landline.
(37:28):
People don't even know what a landline.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
Tell what is these this? They would unscrew the mouthpiece
so that it wouldn't go through.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
It was total cat and mouse. It was totally constant there.
And that's another thing too, that these guys were, these
street guys would become such experts on the techniques and
the tools that the FBI or the NYPD had to
do their surveillance.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
I tell you. And I also interviewed a former linguist,
linguistic expert, okay, who work for the FBI. She actually
had a you know, administrative role at the FBI, but
uh she was she spoke Italian fluently and she also
spoke multiple dialects. So then you get this interesting first
(38:12):
hand account of uh she got her real estate license,
uh just so she could uh uh uh rent some
apartments in the neighborhood without withdrawing less attention and then
listening in on these on these wire tests and now
you had these are pretty dramatic cases with some pretty
(38:32):
with some very dangerous people. So you're you know, tasked
with sort of interpreting these sort of garbled conversations that
it very thick dialects to get the right information that
can make the difference not just in the case, but
in the ability to safeguard uh these investigators. Remember like
when Anthony's undercover, when when a lot of these folks
(38:54):
I interviewed, they're undercover. They're undercover posing as criminals. So
if they get if if if if they get on
the radar for the wrong reason with any of these
these organized crime guys, they could get killed. So it's
but to hear from it, Anthony is different characters of
you know, like he's like the ultimate g man. Yeah,
(39:16):
but to hear from an administrative professional, someone who's like
very anxious, and she said after a time, you know,
she just couldn't do it anymore. You know, these people's
lives are in her hands and if she gets it wrong.
So that was pretty provocative.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
Yeah, what we worked on the Pizza connection for the defense.
We worked on the pizza connection case with where they
were smuggling the heroine through the pizza pizzaias and what
do you call it.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
So one of the things we would do is we would.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
Get the recordings, the transcripts from the FBI of their
telephone recordings, and then we would listen to the recording
and do our counter transcript. So if they heard them
say something about breaking somebody's legs, we would say, oh, no,
he wanted to cook.
Speaker 3 (39:58):
Them some eggs.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
So we heard what I'm saying, you know what I mean,
we put our own counter transcript. You want to hear
something crazy at one of those pizzerias, My cousin was
working there at the pizzeria. This My little Irish Catholic
cousin with red hair was working in one of these
heroin smuggling pizzerias, answering the phone.
Speaker 3 (40:20):
She's on the transcripts.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
Wow, my total coincidence.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
That's what a small world it was.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
That's why I was saying before and even like your
friend the linguist who has had a you know, we
got a real estate license, like word gets out, you know,
and people know, you know what you're doing, and they
go back to their cousin and their friend they tell them, hey,
you know this one and she's working you know, uh
doing listening to your wiretaps. Like that's how it was
back in those days. There was so much word of
(40:46):
mouth and and things like that.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
It's it's and she lived in the heart of Bensonhurst, right,
and nobody knew what she was doing, so she also
she was living sort of like this double life. And
uh along eighteenth aftern you, it was so even that
an amped up even more of the drama. I just
wanted to mention too, Like you mentioned the pizza connection,
(41:10):
that the first time Duke McCabe, Kenny McCabe's son, everiso
the inside of a courtroom was when his father took
him and when Kenny McCabe was testifying at Pizza at
the Pizza Connection trial, because he testified at all the
major mafia cases of the latter twentieth century, including that one.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
And that's what cab you said, Yes, McCabe, and I
got to look up a picture of this guy, see
what he looks like.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
I don't know you can find a picture. That's That's
the thing. He was. He was very it was just
about the job and his family. And that's why it's
been so challenging to, you know, bring his story to
light again. I really do. And and this was uh
Anthony had had a little really strong relationship with with
(41:57):
with Kenny and and actually they what they would do
is they would go to mamatories like this Italian restaurant
in UH in Brooklyn, and they would have like these
these legendary Thursday afternoon pow wows with all multiple members
of law enforce where they would compare notes and sometimes
they would be like members of organized crime would stop
(42:18):
in and have their lunch, and as soon as you know,
Anthony and Kenny and maybe Ron Candeaux or Frank Pergol
or Tommy Davis or any one of these other legends
came in, you know, they would just skid daddle and uh,
but it's just paints like this. There's so many, so
much of this rich history there that comes across. It
(42:39):
was such a privilege to be able to, you know,
tell some of these stories.
Speaker 3 (42:42):
Did either of.
Speaker 2 (42:43):
These guys McCabe or Nelson, did they become private investigators
after they work for place and were criminal defense?
Speaker 3 (42:50):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (42:50):
They did not. Uh. What they did is they went
to work as investigators for the for the attorneys.
Speaker 3 (42:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
Now, now what about you mentioned before or about the
organized crime dealing drugs? The myth is, oh there was
a they wouldn't allow drug dealing and stuff like that.
Speaker 3 (43:09):
What was your experience and what does that Nelson and
McCain tell you about that?
Speaker 1 (43:12):
Uh? Yeah, this was This is another common theme because
remember they were at the street level and they're prowling,
you know, this whole underground and and they know all
these uh, all the characters and they it's it's a
complete myth. I mean, you wouldn't be able to operate
in these jurisdictions, uh without you know, without being able
(43:36):
to pay into these different different families. Uh. So you
know you had like if you had Castellano in the Gambinos,
you know, Uh, threatening to kill Gotti and his own
the links for it, you know. But the rest of
them there were it was it was rampant drug dealing,
and especially with a crew like the Demeyo crew who
(43:59):
Roy DeMeo was raised to captain on the strength of
his ability to earn and also to uh hit the
army of ki killers at his uh at his beck
and call. But he was a he was a prolific
drug dealer, as were you know, all the Five families had,
you know, certain crews that that that were really heavy
(44:20):
into drug dealing.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
Yeah, even marijuana dealing on Stantoni were you from Staten
Island College of Staten Island and Willowbrook Park well as
run by the scarpuis Great Scarpa, Greag Scarpa Jr. From
Columbo family was running that marijuana over there. What about
uh the other thing too, the other myth is Omerta.
Oh nobody talks you keep you about shut and now
(44:42):
what are these guys? Even without getting arrested, you would
hear these stories of big names, big name guys that
the FBI would come to a house, knock on the
door and they would go for a ride and drive
around in the car with these guys and just gossip
with them all day long.
Speaker 3 (44:57):
Did you hear those kind of stories?
Speaker 1 (44:59):
Uh, but not not not to that extent sort of
It was more of a transactional thing, you know, so
you had it was always there's always some sort of
angle or vested interest that that that these they're not
doing it, you know, for any altruistic purposes. You know,
they're looking for compensation or either either they're they're they're
(45:22):
paid for tips, or they're looking for favorable treatment, or
in some instances you'll have like uh, and one example
Anthony gave is you'll have some of these uh, these
uh degenerate gamblers who also maybe hijackers, they're involved in whatever.
So they'll go and place, they'll owe a lot and
(45:43):
still place a really big bet and then they'll drop
dime on their bookie. Then the book he goes away
and then they don't. So that there's a lot of
that double dealing. And you mentioned like Greg Scarper. Greg
Scarper was notorious for that for leveraging his relationship with
law enforcement to manipulate it to take out his is,
to have law enforcement take out his rivals. So there
(46:03):
was a lot of a lot of that double dealing.
Speaker 2 (46:06):
Yeah, it's like a stew you know, like a stew
of a corruption and all that stuff going on here. Uh,
we're getting towards the end of the time we've been
talking about your book here talking to Craig maguire about
Empire City under Siege, three decades of New York Field Office, manhunts,
murders and mafia wars. What other kind of stories they
have in this book that you haven't told us about yet.
Speaker 1 (46:29):
You know, it's it gives you a really good, good
cross section and it makes you look at at at
law enforcement, you know. You know, prior to this, I
kind of got like the different you know, uh ways
in which it structured. Uh. But then what jumped out
at me was there's there's there's a lot of the
(46:51):
organized crime activity, but then there's so many other things
like when because New York is a large office, it
has these things called resident agencies. There's sort of like
smaller offices in the same jurisdiction. You know, they specialize
in certain crimes. So Anthony was in the Brooklyn Queens
are A office and they would have to respond to
(47:15):
any issues with the airlines. That's federal jurisdiction, so you know,
sort of a round robin, and he has some really
interesting stories about you know, going and and there would
being you had one one guy who tried to set
an air stewardess's air on fire, and then some other
incidents where it's just like beating up the crew and
(47:36):
then he has to respond, you know, all these hostage crises.
Also the VA, you know, unfortunately you have a higher
preponderance of mental illness and PTSD among veterans. So that's
the jurisdiction. They have their own police forces. But then
you have those special categories of crime where the FBI
(47:59):
is called in. It's these really heart wrenching stories about uh,
you know, uh murders uh and uh you know, hostage
crises and then where Anthony and members of his squads
and some of his colleagues they have to respond to
these really terrible situations and it's like life and death
(48:20):
situations where you have to make a decision as an investigator.
And and again getting back to that theme, like it's
the hardest job on earth being a member of law enforcement. Uh,
and how people uh can so quickly judge without taking
it to full context, Like the years of des uh
(48:40):
decens citation uh uh and just all the different consequences
and that that members of law enforcement have to endure.
Speaker 3 (48:52):
I don't know how they do it well NYPD and
New York FBI.
Speaker 2 (48:57):
There there really is no uh law enforcement like that
anywhere in the Guntri probably anywhere on the planet. These
are guys who can show up like the first World
Trade Center bombing, you know, and they're plucking people off
the roof, saving them one at a time.
Speaker 3 (49:11):
You know.
Speaker 2 (49:11):
That was my best man in my wedding was though,
nypdr Aviation. Who's plucking these people off the roof? And
then they just show up with such professionalism and such
We're not even blinking an eye, you know, just it's
just such a I guess professionalism what I'm working. And
a couple of hours later they're standing around drinking coffee
(49:32):
because they got everything under.
Speaker 3 (49:33):
Control, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (49:36):
It's just like they just swoop in, man and just
like just take over, man, and just and have everything
under control. Is such a short amount of time we're
at the panic and stuff. You's seeing some other local agencies. Man,
it's a whole different volume.
Speaker 1 (49:50):
There's a section on the tragic events and the aftermath
of nine to eleven, and they have so many other episodes,
and not just the toll on members of law enforcement,
which I don't think is they're given enough credit in general,
but also on the families, like when when Anthony was active,
especially early in his career, there were no cell phones,
(50:11):
there were no direct communications, no, so invariably so many
times like he's pressed into action and he can't even
notify his wife, you know, and so many different family
events you miss. You know, it takes a toll not
just on on the agent, the officer, the detective, but
the wife, the son, the daughter, the parents, and they're
(50:34):
just in this perpetual state of anxiety and and it
really is. Uh, they are the unsung heroes. And if anything,
you know, that's that's the core message of this book
that I'd like to get out.
Speaker 2 (50:47):
So, uh, Craig maguire, what is your next plan? What's
your next book you're working on?
Speaker 1 (50:52):
I'm trying to get through the promotions here, and I'm
a storyteller. I'm always looking at the stories. I have
a couple of things in the works, as do most storytellers,
but this I really want to give this my full
attention now because I think it's it's great stories, but
it's a great message. And when I look at Anthony,
you know, I admire him and and and these other
(51:14):
these other members of the law enforcement that I was
privileged enough to to interview and and they let me
tell their stories. I just want to give it as
much attention and and I'm not a member of law enforcement.
Uh so I did my best try to keep it accurate,
uh and and paint it. I just uh really appreciate this, uh,
(51:36):
this privilege.
Speaker 2 (51:37):
Craig maguire you can find him at wild bluepress dot com.
He's got several books. Three books up there you could
find real quickly pull him up for you. One is
a Carmine and the Thirteenth Avenue Boys surviving Brooklyn's Columbo
Mob and then.
Speaker 3 (51:56):
Doesn't come up too good. What of that way?
Speaker 2 (51:59):
And this one here we're talking about today is a
city under the siege three decades of New York FBI's
Field Office, Manhunt's murders and mafia wars. And then what's
the other one. The one is about one hundred crooks.
What is that thing called?
Speaker 1 (52:12):
Uh, Brooklyn's most Wanted there it is yeah, I tell
you you knows as a I'm a true crime fan myself,
you know, and a lot of my work I was
a Brooklyn reporter for years, you know a lot of
I just think it's the best place in the in
the world that has such rich history. So this is
my attempt to I took you know, and there's so
(52:33):
many notorious personalities. I just took advantage of that, and
I created a weighted scale system, a notory, a notoriety,
and it just it enabled me to tell all these
little vignette yes and put it and and it was
it was against tell good stories, uh, about stuff that
I would want to read.
Speaker 2 (52:55):
Million stories Yeah, New York City from the seventies and eighties,
and not just organized crime, but also like you said,
NYPD and law enforcement, a million stories man, from that
period of time. And it's just what a rich, rich,
rich history it was. Craig McGuire, Thanks so much.
Speaker 3 (53:08):
Man.
Speaker 2 (53:09):
When the next book comes out, give me cole put
your right on.
Speaker 1 (53:11):
The ear and people keep Yeah, I'll tell you there's
something special going on at Wild Blue Press. You know,
check out check out some of the books there, just
some real If you're a true crime fan, there's just
some amazing material there.
Speaker 2 (53:24):
Well, I heard a little bird told me that they
are publishing a book by John Hickley, Yes, John Hickley Junior. Yeah,
I'm trying to. I just heard about that the other night.
I'm trying to. I'm trying to get him on it.
If you don't get any friends of it, a Wild
Blue T'll want to send them over me first, Okay.
Speaker 1 (53:44):
And I know, I know they are a big fan
of yours over there.
Speaker 3 (53:47):
I know, and I'm a big fan. That is too.
Speaker 2 (53:49):
Everybody loves the Opera Report because I run my mouth
for fifty five minutes every day. Hey, Craig Man, thank
you so much. Craig McGuire, once again Empire City under Siege,
three Deck Aides of New York, FBI Field Office, Manhunts,
Murders and Mafia Wars. And you can get that book
there at Wild bluepress dot com.
Speaker 3 (54:06):
Thank you so much, man.
Speaker 1 (54:08):
Thank Dad, You're the best.
Speaker 3 (54:09):
I have a great holiday YouTube Mande
It's the Opperman Report, and now here is investigator Ed Opperman.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Okay, welcome to the Opperman Report. I'm your host, private
investigator Ed Opperman. Now you can get a hold of
me at Opperman Investigations and Digital for instant consulting if
you reach out to me through my email Opperman Investigations
at gmail dot com. Today's show brings back good old memories.
It's from the Brooklyn, New York City, the gritty nineteen seventies,
(00:31):
as it says to this description here the organized crime
cases back in Brooklyn, New York City, and FBI agents
and stuff like that. Empire City under siege, three decades
of New York FBI Field Office, manhunts, murders and mafia wars.
We have the author Craig McGuire and if you check
him out, this guy's a noted author at Wild Blue Press.
(00:55):
You can check him out a wild Blue press dot com.
His previous books are Carmine and the Thirteenth Avenue Boys
about organized crime, the Columbo Family which is notorious from
Brooklyn and Brooklyn's Most Wanted, the Top one hundred Criminals,
Trucks and creeps from the County of Kings I wonder
if my name is in there the top one hundred criminals.
If it was a little bit one hundred and one,
(01:15):
I might be in here. Mister Craig McGuire, are you there?
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Yes, Ed, how are you? Good morning? And thank you
for having me on your show?
Speaker 2 (01:23):
No, thank you man, and thank you to stand on.
If you heard my intro, those people they run for
the hills before we get into your book here Empire
City under Siege. Who is Craig McGuire.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
I am a Brooklyn born journalist, editor, content creator and
true crime author. Grew up one and raised in Brooklyn
and covered on a number of subjects. I cut my
teeth at the Bay News, so I was a beat
reporter four years, got into magazines and eventually books. Empire
(01:57):
under Siege is just a fantastic ernie that I had
with a former Supervisor's special agent, Anthony John Nelson, who
was also born in Breton, Brooklyn. Uh And it's kind
of the theme that works its way through many of
my works.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
And what part of Brooklyn? I grew up in the Bronx,
so we're natural enemies. But what part of Brooklyn are
you from?
Speaker 1 (02:22):
I grew I was born in Green Point, grew up
in Bedston Hurst and Bath Beach, and then I was
in Staten alf for several raised my kids from Staten Island,
and now I reside in New Jersey. It's kind of
a common migration force.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Mister McGuire. I am also from Staten Island. I used
to own front page peepers in the Staten Island mall
if you might remember that. Of course you do remember,
say you probably owe me money on a paper bill,
mister McGuire, I'm here to collect.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
Okay, all right, I'm from Staten Island too. I left there.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
I went to Vegas and now semi retirement.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
Uh what's what are we going to find here? In
this book? Empire City under Siege.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
For starters, this is like it's a collection of really
good stories about Anthony John Nelson, who started the FBI
in nineteen sixty nine various support positions, both mostly forward
to midnight shifts as radio dispatcher electronics technician before he
(03:29):
was sworn in as a special agent in nineteen seventy
six and entered the FBI Academy at Quantico, graduated in
seventy seven, and then it was assigned to the New
York field office. And this was this is new as
you mentioned before, this is you know, gritty New York
of the nineteen seventies where crime spiked. I think at
(03:51):
one point the murder rate rose to like five murders
per day nationwide, there were nearly three thousand bombings. This
is when organized crime is really cementing strangleholds over so
many different industries and aspects of life. You know, massive
epidemic in in hijackings, UH and and and anthony you know,
(04:13):
plunges into this UH into this really amazing historical period
where New York is really sort of the microcosm for
all these different UH trends in law enforcement and criminality
you know, across the country.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
You know, that's so true.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
You talk about back in the seventies that that's when
New York City organized crime was really at their at
their peak of power. But there was also a lot
of corruption too in an NYPD and and a lot
of guys would retire from FBI and then go work
for criminal defense for organized crime.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Any any information like that in the book.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Uh, yes, there are several corruption cases see interestingly in
in in New York. As an agent, you know, you
cover such a wide range of crimes. When Anthony first
came out, he was an undercover operative uh in organized
crime who actually ran a uh uh a warehouse, an
(05:16):
organized crime affiliated warehouse in Red Hook. And and the
fact he grew up in Red Hook and neighboring park slope.
Uh so he really could walk walk the walk and
talk the talk. Uh and then throughout his career hostage negotiations,
you know, extortions, uh even uh you know violent attacks
(05:38):
aren't airlines, you know, bank robberies, uh, undercovered drug buys.
Where he was you know, posing as as an organized
crime figure from New York going down to uh South Florida,
and this is this is South Florida of the cocaine
cowboys era. It's all of these uh different types of
(05:59):
crimes that really pulled together this rich tapestry. And and
and a lot several of his of his cases, especially
some of the undercover cases and the earlier cases, uh,
were featured throughout New York media. Uh so you have
some really provocative photos from when he recovered uh some
stolen picassos of all things, where he one of his
(06:20):
informants overheard uh that uh, some organized crime figures are
having difficulty unloading some stolen Picassos, and he recovered was
he was able to recover them from uh uh a
an abandoned car parked on a street in Queens. Uh
So that was a pretty provocative image, just such great material.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
But oh wait, wait, wait they had a stolen Picasso
was left in an abandoned car.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Picasso and some matize in in the backseat of an
abandoned car in Queens. Now, if you think about you know,
the recent uh robbery at the Louver and and and
the fact that uh they still have I believe they
still have not recovered those Crown jewels. You know, you
look at some of these crimes and you know the
(07:08):
dramatic consequences uh that can ensue.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
Yeah, you know, I've had.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
On the show a few times Turbo Paul, the art
hostage who's was a former art thief himself from a
UK and now negotiates with the insurance companies, you know
broker's stolen art deals and gets them.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
Back in the circulation.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
And I gotta tell you, man, it's really amazing how
really easy it is to steal this art. Man, there's
a lot of stolen art going around and then it
also do with the art too, with a lot of
money laundering going through the art. But now, how did
they find it in the back of this car?
Speaker 3 (07:43):
They got a tip?
Speaker 2 (07:45):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
You know, one of one of the one of the
strategies that the FBI historically has applied uh to great
success is the cultivation of informants, confidential informance in order
or two sort of unravel larger criminal enterprises. UH. And
and Anthony was very And that's sort of a double
(08:08):
edged sword, right, because you're dealing with these nefarious criminals
who have ulterior motives in some instances, you know, they
actually you know, have fantasy that they're an extension of
law enforcement. So it could be very problematic. Uh. And
there's also a trust uh factor. Anthony was just highly
successful at cultivating uh uh informants and this is just
(08:32):
one of many UH stories in the book that exemplify that,
you know, where he got the tip and uh was
able to recover the stolen artwork.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
Yeah, that's a good question.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
What is Anthony how does he feel about these this
informant process that we have. Well, you know, and there's
really you got pretty bad guys. You know, they're they're
not there but then they make a deal, you know,
and they're dealing with the probation departments pretty much just
a performant that operation, and but then they're out there
committing more crimes. What does he think about that? I
think that system needs to be overhauled. What does Anthony
(09:07):
and John Nelson think about this?
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Uh? More importantly, it's it's when it's not applied properly.
UH is where you have where where where you have
issues like UH a law enforce, law enforcement professional like
Anthony Nelson, UH, which really built his his career on
integrity and trust and how you conduct yourself and that
(09:31):
that that that includes UH in his dealings with confidential informants.
So that was UH, it's it's a different dynamic. So
you you you build that level of trust. But then
it's also you know, you are a member of law
enforcement and you can't turn a blind guy. You have
(09:52):
to be able to anticipate, evaluate, uh and be able
to manage each each circumstance, each informant, you know, effectively.
Because it's also an extension of you know, protecting the
public trust.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Yeah, because you hear about these famous cases like Whitey
Bulderness said, all look at this guy was they will
let him go, and you know, they let him do
whatever he wanted because he was an informant. But the
day to day cases where you see these guys again, yeah,
I am Tory, no dirtbags too, man, Just can't they
get arrested over and over and over. And we were
just dealing with a guy recently who is his daily
routine was to go down to the local convenience store
(10:29):
and strong armed that the eighteen year old girl behind
the counter and stealing his food. You know, he's gotta
arrested over and over and over again. And but because
he was giving them street information, they let him out
over and over. Like the guy's menace to society is
worse than you can get. What if your daughter's working
in that little supermark, that little bookdaga, you know, and
(10:51):
you got to deal with a character like that. Something
has to be done about this album.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
I will say one thing that I was eye opening
for me was like, these aren't just wild guns that
are out there operating independently, especially at the FBI. I understand.
It's it's a sort, it's it's a system, it's it's necessary.
It's too develop informasts. You have to have that level
level of intelligence at the street level and as you
(11:17):
go up to build cases. UH. But at the same time,
it's something that they're very much aware of the the
possibility that it can for corruption, uh, for also just
for mismanagement. So they're constantly looking at and evolving their practices, policies, procedures.
(11:38):
And it's another thing that's a constant theme through the book.
You know, the challenge, just the challenges and technology, you know,
that sort of inhibited cooperation. UH. When you don't have
sexualized databases, when you don't have the level of communications
technologies that you have today, when each investigator has to
go from jurisdiction to juristic to knit to manually knit
(12:02):
together trends and different criminal networks, it makes it much
more challenging. The fact that the FBI has has led
uh the evolution and uh in technology and application of technology.
We look at that through you know, some of the
cases that Anthony had, so like rushing to a hostage
(12:25):
crisis where uh, you know, seconds matter uh, and but
you don't have any way to establish that critical uh
communications up front other than knocking on the neighbor's door
and asking to use a phone or he's and one thing.
It's it's like these little details that really jump out
(12:45):
at me where he's saying, just better make sure that
I have a pockets full of quarters. And then he
sends the agent to run down the block to find
a payphone that's working. It's just these nowadays, these things
that take it for granted. But he he would say, uh,
you don't know what you do. You can't miss what
you don't know.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
When did Nelson retire?
Speaker 1 (13:10):
I uh, I would have probably uh in early early
two thousands. Uh. But remember he also after he retired
from the FBI, he's uh, he served several years in
the Brooklyn District Attorney's Special Investigation.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Sunit okay, gotcha because because just if he was around
in the seventies, like he said, with a pocket full quarters, right, yeah,
oh yeah, I know I was running into it a
pocket phone quarters really even even after I had a
cell phone. It had her cell phone early on, but
what do you call it? The U?
Speaker 3 (13:42):
And nowadays you're right, he's racing to a hostage scene.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Now they got these license plate readers, so he just
get the guy's plate number. You know where he's been
in the past ten years.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
You know where this guy's is.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Yeah, oh, and they get ping his cell phone. You
gotta hold a cell phone. You can get as always
a data where you know every place, where he gets
his coffee in the morning, where he goes to the jim,
you get everything, what cars he's been in. Just what
a difference man, You're right from the seventies today. But
I was wondering before though, Craig McGuire, now, because you
(14:13):
wrote this other book about the local Brooklyn organized crime
guys of Columbo family, how do how do you get
involved in all this?
Speaker 1 (14:19):
What?
Speaker 2 (14:20):
How were you brushing against these guys growing up? How
do you what was your interest in the connection to
all this?
Speaker 1 (14:25):
The you know, when when you grow up in Brooklyn
you have a wide cross section of friends.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
You can't help.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
But yeah, thats just you know, you're you're, you're, it's
it's just an amazing uh you know, culture of different personalities.
And I was actually I worked on one book, uh
that fell apart, but the the the detective Tommy Davis,
who's a legendary detective NYPD. He connected me with Carmine
(14:55):
over COVID and uh we and and actually carm I
who operated on Thirteenth Avenue, which was like three blocks
from my house. So I'm very acquainted with the whole
with the culture, with the setting, with the time period,
even though I'm much younger. And then through through that book,
which which was pretty successful, Tommy introduced me to some
(15:17):
other members of law enforcement. I had another book that
unfortunately fell through, and then one day but Anthony was
offered to be a consultant on that project. And it
really struck me because the most important thing that Anthony
wanted to get across in this in this book was
just to reflect on the positive contributions of law enforcement
(15:40):
in general and how too often today that's taken for granted,
or law enforcement is unfortunately posed overwhelmingly in a negative light,
which I don't think is fair or accurate. And he
also wanted to shed some light on some of his
colleagues in law enforcement, not just the FBI. There's a
lot of folk in the NYPD that are featured in
(16:02):
the book. So I'm sitting there having breakfast with his
lovely wife, Cindy and Anthony, and he's showing me clip
after clip and and I was like, there's a book here. Uh.
He was really reluctant UH to to share more of this,
but UH, God bless Cindy was able to help me
convince him. And I have to tell you Ed it
(16:23):
was it was kind of like night and day. When
you're working with a former UH enforcer Bookie UH for
UH for the Columbo family, and then to work with
with a retired member of law enforcement. It's a totally
different dynamic and it impacts everything from research to UH
(16:44):
follow ups. And the interesting thing that really jumped out
at me. I interviewed several members of law enforcement and
just some some really remarkable legendary characters. UH. And every
time I had a follow up, you know, I did
the interview, preps, share the transcript, maybe had a follow
up question. It was a data point. Most important. We
had to make sure move heaven and art to get
(17:06):
everything accurate as we could. I would I would give
them time and say, UH, get back to me in
a couple of weeks, so by next month, there's no
rush to UH to a person. Every single one of
them would drop everything. UH be so accommodating, halt vacations,
UH and just it be so responsive. And that's not
(17:27):
really the experience that I had with the uh former
members of orchidised crime who were a little bit less uh.
And it was just and it made me think like,
as uh, these these these members of law enforcement existing
and retarded. They they they're different types of people. They
(17:48):
operated a different level, you know, the level of thoroughness
and articulation and accuracy, attention to detail, uh, hustle. It's
just it was. It's pretty remarkable and I just appreciate everything,
all their contributions.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
I can remember working with this PI back and then
when I was in stan Allen and when he was
a cop. He used to like his name was Jerry Rude.
It was a famous the cop and famous PI and
what do you call it? The he would hide like
in a garbage can to do surveillance on people, you know,
and then as the guy's walking by, he jumps out
(18:27):
of the garbage can to arrest him. I remember the
first time I ever went to shake hands with him,
I had a cast on my right hand, so I
went to shake hands with him with my left hand
and he reached for his gun to his arms.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
And then take it to jump on him.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
You know.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
But I want to go back to some of you
said before you're talking about Anthony Nelson that what do
you call it? A He would show you clips and
was this video clips or newspaper clips?
Speaker 1 (18:51):
Newspaper clips? Uh, because I tell you he was. He
It's there's another thing that that I noticed. Well, you know,
we're with these members of law enforcement. You know, I
don't they tend to get a little bit I don't
know if it desensitizes the right word, but you know
(19:12):
a lot of times they didn't realize the gravity of
some of the things that we were discussing. Just some
of the cases and some of the bravery. It's almost
like second nature to them. So Anthony would talk about
you know, he pulled out I think he pulled out
a clipping of the bones case in Brooklyn where you
had members of the proprietors of a funeral home and
(19:33):
mortuary that was on the black market. We're selling you know,
contaminated body parts. And I remember that case, and I
remember how dramatic it was, and there's just it's it's
case after case. You know, he was friends with the
federal de agent Everett Hatcher who was assassinated. You know,
(19:57):
he also worked at kidnapping and.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Marcis Gus s Faracci case right, Yes.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
The.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
Governor's Island bomb plot. You know, so and and you
know he was an investigator and he worked with the
whole uh army of other investigators. Uh take down the
Themeo gang. You know the when when they tried to
smuggle I think it was uh uh veal palm or
chicken palm. It's a prison for John Gotti.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Uh yeah, yeah, yeah, And that's what that's what caused
all the problems. And it was MDC or MCC, but
that's what caused a big crackdown. You used to be
able to sneak stuff into to the defendants, but then God,
he screwed it up for everybody exactly.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
And it's just case after ca and you're just blown
away by one of these, like as he's pulling out
and as we're talking about this, sometimes Anthony would say, Craig,
do you think readers would be interested in this? And
I'm and I'm falling out of my chair. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
I remember sitting in and I was talking about the
p I off there. I was sitting in his office
and he was telling me how they would smuggle in salamis,
slices of salami in the tie boxes because you could
bring him in the suits to work of court. Okay,
so then guy, these ties would smell like salami in court,
he said, the dapper don stinking like salami. Oh wow,
(21:23):
I know, man, I know, great stuff. No, but I
want to hear what did you're saying that Anthony Nelson
was involved in the gust Farronchi case.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
He was friends with UH with like the the DA
is also part of the Justice Department, so and and
and uh every hatcher was UH an investigator active in
the New York area. And they also had sort of
the they had shared interest in UH uh the National
(21:52):
Guard UH and and they established a friendship. And actually
like a week before he was at a social event
with his kids. Were there, average average children were there,
And then Anthony was on scene unfortunately in in Staten Island.
I believe it was the West Or Expressway when they
when when they recovered the body. And if you've ever
(22:13):
been on that part of uh Statena, that really is
the end of the that is the end of the earth.
So it's and it's all these little vignettes UH of Anthony,
and he's he's the first one to tell you that
a lot of these cases, these major cases that he
was involved with, he was contributing intelligence. So maybe he
(22:34):
wasn't the one doing the interrogation or he wasn't the
one making the arrest, but he was involved in in
an era where you saw increasing collaboration. And that's another
theme in the book that I don't think is really explored.
You know, obviously there's you know, personality conflicts, you know,
or interagency rivalries, but during this era, just you know,
(22:57):
facilitated by UH technology, by increasing sophistication of these agencies,
new legal statutes like RICO, like changes and provacy law
that sort of encouraged collaboration. And there was a lot
of collaborations, including like the rise of all these joint
(23:17):
task forces that were highly successful. And Anthony had some
really slice of life and then some of the other
folks I interviewed has some really great slice of life
anecdotes of you know how you had all these straight
laced FBI college guys, and then you had all these
these rough and ready NYPD detectives and then you put
them all in a room six each and then within
(23:41):
a week or so, you can't really tell who's who.
So which it's very inspiring.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
You had mentioned before how he grew up in Red Hook, right,
and then later on went to work as undercover, and
so much, especially back in oose days, was a word
of mouth with the organ of crime guys was you
didn't have these databases and stuff like that. They had
access to p I s and stuff, but not the
kind of database that we have today. And so it
was a lot of everyone knew each other, you know,
(24:11):
so you you looked.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Into people's background and stuff.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Did he, ever, when he was undercover have his cover
blown because he grew.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
Up in the neighborhood.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
It's interesting that you you you mentioned that. So when
he came out, remember this is he's he's a child
of the fifties, uh and early sixties, and he he
was in red Hook very early. He came home from
the hospital at Red Oak. It's a Red Hook but
then the family moved to Park Slope. So and initially
(24:42):
in his career, in his uh, in his career, it
served him well because you know, he he did. He
didn't he seemed like an insart. He didn't talk like
an outsidery he you know, he had the general he
carried himself well. He understood Italian to carry a a
rudimentary conversation, and he just had that that that Brooklyn
(25:03):
vibe about him. So he was able to manage this
uh this warehouse supposedly uh uh a mob affiliated warehouse
where he sort of had first ride a refusal uh
when they came in. It wasn't a high traffic spot.
But then uh as he as his career progressed and
(25:24):
he became more visible, including he would go on these
the these night rides with this this really famous uh
detective uh Kenny McCabe. You know, it got to the
point where uh he had to hang up the the
undercover work. Now also remember he was there were a
couple there were a number of cases where he would
(25:46):
be posing as a Gambino associated and he'd have to
go to Fort Lauderdale or or Miami uh for to
do uh undercovered drug buys. Uh. So again, you know
it it's a very unforgiving atmosphere, and then you have
these these criminals are highly superstitious, and you know, he
(26:14):
realized that he had to wind that down. But also
he was also increasing his responsibility because he was such
an amazing investigator and leader of other members. So he
took on some squads and he eventually elevated to be
a supervisory special agent.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
So you mentioned Kenneth Kenny McCabe who was NYPD, and
mister Nelson there was FBI. So how did they hook
up together? And talks more about Kenny McCabe, What.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Was his story.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Kenny McCabe is one of these like rare characters in
law enforcement. He was a member of the New York
City Police Department and detective for eighteen years, mostly as
a detective assigned to the Broken dis Strig Attorney's Office,
and then for I believe twenty years he was an
(27:06):
organized crime investigator for the US Attorney's Office. To say
Kenny McKay was the was law enforcement's most effective weapon
against organized crime in the latter half of the twentieth
century would be an understatement. He had a sort of
(27:26):
encyclopedic knowledge of criminals and not only who they who
they were, and who they were affiliated, were their whole
criminal network, like their whole families. And this is pre databases,
this is where any of that was really in use.
(27:46):
So early on, I think it was seventy seven Anthony's
gets a tip from an informant, I could have been
sheeps at Bay and he's scouting it out. I think
it was not a robbery, was hijacking. So then he's
on site scouting in at and then he sees this
detective who he kind of thinks he and then later
(28:07):
in the day he gets an introduction to Kenny mccab
So they that's the they joined for forces, and they're
they're able to recover the hijacking, and then what grows
is this amazing friendship. I mean, they're both Brooklyn guys.
The thing about Kenny McCabe is there's very little media
on him. Like during that era where you had a
(28:28):
lot of you know, you had really the rise in
sort of this urban organized crime reporting, you know, and
the big press releases and the purp walks, Like Kenny
McCabe wasn't involved with any of that, even though he
was critical to so many of these investigations. So you
don't have as a content producer, you see, there's only
(28:49):
so much you could do with b roll. If you
don't have any actual historical footage, if you don't have pictures,
it all kind of falls apart. So this is one
character that really hasn't gotten that sort of media treatment
that he deserves. I do know his son, Duke McCabe
is trying valiantly, and I do think something's gonna come,
and I wish him the best of luck at that.
(29:10):
So now we're in the late seventies and you have
these two Brooklyn members of law enforcement, ones in the NYPD,
the other one ones in the FBI. So what do
they do at night after shifts? Now, Lincoln, I'm sorry,
Anthony drove a Plymouth Grand Fury with the full police package.
(29:31):
And if you know the vehicle like this, nothing screams
Cotmobile more than the Grand Fury. So what they what
what what started and went on for decades is they
would just go from and make themselves very conspicuous, go
from organized crime clubhouse, the cafe, and just cover that.
(29:54):
They used to be hundreds of them spread all throughout
Brooklyn Queens and they would just out him, go take pictures,
capture license plates, see who's coming in and out. And
what develops is just this amazing collection of stories and
and and and and Kenny was doing this by himself,
(30:14):
Like there's a story in the book where his son
was a basketball star Saverian in bay Ridge, and when
when his son would have away games. Uh his and
his father would take him to the to the basketball game,
you know, before or after they would swing by any
any uh you know uh OC social clubs in the area.
(30:35):
So it's really that that dedication to this, to not
just these battles, this war against uh organized crimes are fascinating.
And one of my favorite stories in the book is
you have so there's UH Anthony's driving the Grand Fury
and you have Kenny McCabe always writing shotgun with the
(30:56):
with his camera and his pen and paper at the ready.
Also uh NYPD detective Ron Cadeautz in the back seat,
and they're on they're in the middle of Bens and
hers by multiple social clubs, and they they're they're on
eighty six Street, large thoroughfare going by either fourteenth or
fifteenth Avenue, stopped at the light, and they look over
(31:17):
in this in this in this car lot, and in
the the doors and windows are open in the in
the office and there's dozens of organized crime members in there.
And then somebody shouts out McCabe and then like rats
from a sinking ship, they're they're just jumping over windows,
over fences to get away. Kenny McCabe's walking shouting out
(31:39):
their names as he's writing them down to later hands
off to their prole off the officers to violate them.
It's just I mean, it just jumps off the page
to me.
Speaker 3 (31:51):
Yeah, the good old days. It's just so different now.
Speaker 1 (31:56):
You know.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Now, what about you mentioned in the book. It's in
the title Mafia war is what what mafia wars? The
one thing I could pick of it was the little
lickey scarfoon in Philadelphia.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Oh, you had the war really refers to the war
law enforcement and taking down all the all the different
five families. So you had Anthony Kenny McCabe, so many
others profiled in the book. Frank Pergola. It just going
(32:28):
through all the different investigations that led up to all
these seminole cases. This is the Windows case, the Commission case.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
I remember the Windows case. That that was the always
get confused. The chin Giganti was Jenevie's right or Lucese
Jenevie's yes, And that was the Windows case.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
Tell us about that they had a contract with the
schools in New York City schools.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Yeah, like so many of these other building unions. It
was the organized crime tax where they were able to
apply you know, pennies two. They also did it with gasoline, uh,
with the unions. It's just people don't realize. Like in
that era. One of the common myths is how organized
crime supposedly protected when in actuality they increased the tax
(33:17):
across all businesses and also flooded the streets with drugs,
you know, and and a lot of this comes up
in the book. You know, Anthony lived not far from
the Gemini Lounge. This was the infamous clubhouse of Roy
de Mayo and his crew where they you know, likely
(33:39):
murdered upwards of one hundred victims and dismembered them and
then dispatched them in the Fountain Dump or some other places.
But all throughout, so it wasn't just And this is
why the use of confidential informants to put together all
(33:59):
of the crow times and the relationships, you know, to
build these massive cases, which is something they historically were
unable to do. The wire tapping began to evolve also
the way in which they conducted investigations, the way and
they processed leads, the way interagency collaboration like remember you
(34:22):
have dea secret service, local law enforcement FBI just all
coming together from different angles. And I don't think that allowed.
That story has really been told too much.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
You mentioned wiretapping, okay, and one of the things we
would do is counter surveillance that I would actually crawl
around in the accentstead of looking for wires, they've looking
for bugs and stuff like that. But when you looked
it up, like the FBI in New York State or
New York City only had like a hundred authorized wire
taps and the rest were all just done. I guess
(35:00):
you might use the expression for daisy wires apps did
mister Nelson or mister McKay, but describe any of that
that they were just doing their own wire taps.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
Uh, No, like anything, it would operate like that just
because it would threatening investigation. And uh, really the larger
challenge was in the technology itself. You know where I'm
sure you remember, you know, years ago there was a
radio shack on every other corner. Uh So there's there's
a story in the book where you know, you had, uh,
(35:34):
the organized crime figures, you know, became very adept at
being able to circumvent UH wires to some extent. You know,
they realized that they were able to realize that. Uh.
For example, when when a conversation started, uh, the whoever
was listening in in law enforcement, after a certain amount
of time, if they're not talking you know, criminal business,
(35:56):
you had to shut it off. So they would talk
about recipes and all this. Then. But then also you
had some some of these colorful characters Anthony brings up.
They would go to radio check and they would pick
up the scanners and they would be able to pick
up uh if there was a listening device nearby. So
you had this constant cat and mouse game. But really, uh,
(36:20):
it all got there. It came down to the integrity
of the investigation, the privacy laws where you would have
to get the uh, get get a warrant from a
judge uh, and do it the right way and set
it up because the last thing you wanted to do
was produce evidence that would fall apart and take down
a whole case because you gathered it illegally.
Speaker 2 (36:41):
Yeah, they would have, like you said, r F RF
transmitter if it was a radio frequency transmitter. If the
bug was a radio frequency transmitter, there were all kinds
of devices you could buy, like these wands that would
pick up the RF signal. And you could even listen
in you know, you could hear, you could talk on here.
But the other one was too is they had these
infinity transmitters that you can put on a telephone. So
what these guys would do is they would take the
(37:03):
phone if they're in a room, they would unscrew the mouthpiece.
Speaker 3 (37:07):
On the phone.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
Because how it worked was it was like they called
it a harmonica tap or an infinity transmitter, that you
would dial the guy's number, that the fac I could
dial the guy's number, and before the last digit, they
would push this tone through the line and that telephone
would become a microphone for the room. So before these
guys would talk, they would unscrew the mouthpiece on the landline.
(37:28):
People don't even know what a landline.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
Tell what is these this? They would unscrew the mouthpiece
so that it wouldn't go through.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
It was total cat and mouse. It was totally constant there.
And that's another thing too, that these guys were, these
street guys would become such experts on the techniques and
the tools that the FBI or the NYPD had to
do their surveillance.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
I tell you. And I also interviewed a former linguist,
linguistic expert, okay, who work for the FBI. She actually
had a you know, administrative role at the FBI, but
uh she was she spoke Italian fluently and she also
spoke multiple dialects. So then you get this interesting first
(38:12):
hand account of uh she got her real estate license,
uh just so she could uh uh uh rent some
apartments in the neighborhood without withdrawing less attention and then
listening in on these on these wire tests and now
you had these are pretty dramatic cases with some pretty
(38:32):
with some very dangerous people. So you're you know, tasked
with sort of interpreting these sort of garbled conversations that
it very thick dialects to get the right information that
can make the difference not just in the case, but
in the ability to safeguard uh these investigators. Remember like
when Anthony's undercover, when when a lot of these folks
(38:54):
I interviewed, they're undercover. They're undercover posing as criminals. So
if they get if if if if they get on
the radar for the wrong reason with any of these
these organized crime guys, they could get killed. So it's
but to hear from it, Anthony is different characters of
you know, like he's like the ultimate g man. Yeah,
(39:16):
but to hear from an administrative professional, someone who's like
very anxious, and she said after a time, you know,
she just couldn't do it anymore. You know, these people's
lives are in her hands and if she gets it wrong.
So that was pretty provocative.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
Yeah, what we worked on the Pizza connection for the defense.
We worked on the pizza connection case with where they
were smuggling the heroine through the pizza pizzaias and what
do you call it.
Speaker 3 (39:42):
So one of the things we would do is we would.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
Get the recordings, the transcripts from the FBI of their
telephone recordings, and then we would listen to the recording
and do our counter transcript. So if they heard them
say something about breaking somebody's legs, we would say, oh, no,
he wanted to cook.
Speaker 3 (39:58):
Them some eggs.
Speaker 2 (40:00):
So we heard what I'm saying, you know what I mean,
we put our own counter transcript. You want to hear
something crazy at one of those pizzerias, My cousin was
working there at the pizzeria. This My little Irish Catholic
cousin with red hair was working in one of these
heroin smuggling pizzerias, answering the phone.
Speaker 3 (40:20):
She's on the transcripts.
Speaker 1 (40:22):
Wow, my total coincidence.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
That's what a small world it was.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
That's why I was saying before and even like your
friend the linguist who has had a you know, we
got a real estate license, like word gets out, you know,
and people know, you know what you're doing, and they
go back to their cousin and their friend they tell them, hey,
you know this one and she's working you know, uh
doing listening to your wiretaps. Like that's how it was
back in those days. There was so much word of
(40:46):
mouth and and things like that.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
It's it's and she lived in the heart of Bensonhurst, right,
and nobody knew what she was doing, so she also
she was living sort of like this double life. And
uh along eighteenth aftern you, it was so even that
an amped up even more of the drama. I just
wanted to mention too, Like you mentioned the pizza connection,
(41:10):
that the first time Duke McCabe, Kenny McCabe's son, everiso
the inside of a courtroom was when his father took
him and when Kenny McCabe was testifying at Pizza at
the Pizza Connection trial, because he testified at all the
major mafia cases of the latter twentieth century, including that one.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
And that's what cab you said, Yes, McCabe, and I
got to look up a picture of this guy, see
what he looks like.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
I don't know you can find a picture. That's That's
the thing. He was. He was very it was just
about the job and his family. And that's why it's
been so challenging to, you know, bring his story to
light again. I really do. And and this was uh
Anthony had had a little really strong relationship with with
(41:57):
with Kenny and and actually they what they would do
is they would go to mamatories like this Italian restaurant
in UH in Brooklyn, and they would have like these
these legendary Thursday afternoon pow wows with all multiple members
of law enforce where they would compare notes and sometimes
they would be like members of organized crime would stop
(42:18):
in and have their lunch, and as soon as you know,
Anthony and Kenny and maybe Ron Candeaux or Frank Pergol
or Tommy Davis or any one of these other legends
came in, you know, they would just skid daddle and uh,
but it's just paints like this. There's so many, so
much of this rich history there that comes across. It
(42:39):
was such a privilege to be able to, you know,
tell some of these stories.
Speaker 3 (42:42):
Did either of.
Speaker 2 (42:43):
These guys McCabe or Nelson, did they become private investigators
after they work for place and were criminal defense?
Speaker 3 (42:50):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (42:50):
They did not. Uh. What they did is they went
to work as investigators for the for the attorneys.
Speaker 3 (42:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
Now, now what about you mentioned before or about the
organized crime dealing drugs? The myth is, oh there was
a they wouldn't allow drug dealing and stuff like that.
Speaker 3 (43:09):
What was your experience and what does that Nelson and
McCain tell you about that?
Speaker 1 (43:12):
Uh? Yeah, this was This is another common theme because
remember they were at the street level and they're prowling,
you know, this whole underground and and they know all
these uh, all the characters and they it's it's a
complete myth. I mean, you wouldn't be able to operate
in these jurisdictions, uh without you know, without being able
(43:36):
to pay into these different different families. Uh. So you
know you had like if you had Castellano in the Gambinos,
you know, Uh, threatening to kill Gotti and his own
the links for it, you know. But the rest of
them there were it was it was rampant drug dealing,
and especially with a crew like the Demeyo crew who
(43:59):
Roy DeMeo was raised to captain on the strength of
his ability to earn and also to uh hit the
army of ki killers at his uh at his beck
and call. But he was a he was a prolific
drug dealer, as were you know, all the Five families had,
you know, certain crews that that that were really heavy
(44:20):
into drug dealing.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
Yeah, even marijuana dealing on Stantoni were you from Staten
Island College of Staten Island and Willowbrook Park well as
run by the scarpuis Great Scarpa, Greag Scarpa Jr. From
Columbo family was running that marijuana over there. What about
uh the other thing too, the other myth is Omerta.
Oh nobody talks you keep you about shut and now
(44:42):
what are these guys? Even without getting arrested, you would
hear these stories of big names, big name guys that
the FBI would come to a house, knock on the
door and they would go for a ride and drive
around in the car with these guys and just gossip
with them all day long.
Speaker 3 (44:57):
Did you hear those kind of stories?
Speaker 1 (44:59):
Uh, but not not not to that extent sort of
It was more of a transactional thing, you know, so
you had it was always there's always some sort of
angle or vested interest that that that these they're not
doing it, you know, for any altruistic purposes. You know,
they're looking for compensation or either either they're they're they're
(45:22):
paid for tips, or they're looking for favorable treatment, or
in some instances you'll have like uh, and one example
Anthony gave is you'll have some of these uh, these
uh degenerate gamblers who also maybe hijackers, they're involved in whatever.
So they'll go and place, they'll owe a lot and
(45:43):
still place a really big bet and then they'll drop
dime on their bookie. Then the book he goes away
and then they don't. So that there's a lot of
that double dealing. And you mentioned like Greg Scarper. Greg
Scarper was notorious for that for leveraging his relationship with
law enforcement to manipulate it to take out his is,
to have law enforcement take out his rivals. So there
(46:03):
was a lot of a lot of that double dealing.
Speaker 2 (46:06):
Yeah, it's like a stew you know, like a stew
of a corruption and all that stuff going on here. Uh,
we're getting towards the end of the time we've been
talking about your book here talking to Craig maguire about
Empire City under Siege, three decades of New York Field Office, manhunts,
murders and mafia wars. What other kind of stories they
have in this book that you haven't told us about yet.
Speaker 1 (46:29):
You know, it's it gives you a really good, good
cross section and it makes you look at at at
law enforcement, you know. You know, prior to this, I
kind of got like the different you know, uh ways
in which it structured. Uh. But then what jumped out
at me was there's there's there's a lot of the
(46:51):
organized crime activity, but then there's so many other things
like when because New York is a large office, it
has these things called resident agencies. There's sort of like
smaller offices in the same jurisdiction. You know, they specialize
in certain crimes. So Anthony was in the Brooklyn Queens
are A office and they would have to respond to
(47:15):
any issues with the airlines. That's federal jurisdiction, so you know,
sort of a round robin, and he has some really
interesting stories about you know, going and and there would
being you had one one guy who tried to set
an air stewardess's air on fire, and then some other
incidents where it's just like beating up the crew and
(47:36):
then he has to respond, you know, all these hostage crises.
Also the VA, you know, unfortunately you have a higher
preponderance of mental illness and PTSD among veterans. So that's
the jurisdiction. They have their own police forces. But then
you have those special categories of crime where the FBI
(47:59):
is called in. It's these really heart wrenching stories about uh,
you know, uh murders uh and uh you know, hostage
crises and then where Anthony and members of his squads
and some of his colleagues they have to respond to
these really terrible situations and it's like life and death
(48:20):
situations where you have to make a decision as an investigator.
And and again getting back to that theme, like it's
the hardest job on earth being a member of law enforcement. Uh,
and how people uh can so quickly judge without taking
it to full context, Like the years of des uh
(48:40):
decens citation uh uh and just all the different consequences
and that that members of law enforcement have to endure.
Speaker 3 (48:52):
I don't know how they do it well NYPD and
New York FBI.
Speaker 2 (48:57):
There there really is no uh law enforcement like that
anywhere in the Guntri probably anywhere on the planet. These
are guys who can show up like the first World
Trade Center bombing, you know, and they're plucking people off
the roof, saving them one at a time.
Speaker 3 (49:11):
You know.
Speaker 2 (49:11):
That was my best man in my wedding was though,
nypdr Aviation. Who's plucking these people off the roof? And
then they just show up with such professionalism and such
We're not even blinking an eye, you know, just it's
just such a I guess professionalism what I'm working. And
a couple of hours later they're standing around drinking coffee
(49:32):
because they got everything under.
Speaker 3 (49:33):
Control, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (49:36):
It's just like they just swoop in, man and just
like just take over, man, and just and have everything
under control. Is such a short amount of time we're
at the panic and stuff. You's seeing some other local agencies. Man,
it's a whole different volume.
Speaker 1 (49:50):
There's a section on the tragic events and the aftermath
of nine to eleven, and they have so many other episodes,
and not just the toll on members of law enforcement,
which I don't think is they're given enough credit in general,
but also on the families, like when when Anthony was active,
especially early in his career, there were no cell phones,
(50:11):
there were no direct communications, no, so invariably so many
times like he's pressed into action and he can't even
notify his wife, you know, and so many different family
events you miss. You know, it takes a toll not
just on on the agent, the officer, the detective, but
the wife, the son, the daughter, the parents, and they're
(50:34):
just in this perpetual state of anxiety and and it
really is. Uh, they are the unsung heroes. And if anything,
you know, that's that's the core message of this book
that I'd like to get out.
Speaker 2 (50:47):
So, uh, Craig maguire, what is your next plan? What's
your next book you're working on?
Speaker 1 (50:52):
I'm trying to get through the promotions here, and I'm
a storyteller. I'm always looking at the stories. I have
a couple of things in the works, as do most storytellers,
but this I really want to give this my full
attention now because I think it's it's great stories, but
it's a great message. And when I look at Anthony,
you know, I admire him and and and these other
(51:14):
these other members of the law enforcement that I was
privileged enough to to interview and and they let me
tell their stories. I just want to give it as
much attention and and I'm not a member of law enforcement.
Uh so I did my best try to keep it accurate,
uh and and paint it. I just uh really appreciate this, uh,
(51:36):
this privilege.
Speaker 2 (51:37):
Craig maguire you can find him at wild bluepress dot com.
He's got several books. Three books up there you could
find real quickly pull him up for you. One is
a Carmine and the Thirteenth Avenue Boys surviving Brooklyn's Columbo
Mob and then.
Speaker 3 (51:56):
Doesn't come up too good. What of that way?
Speaker 2 (51:59):
And this one here we're talking about today is a
city under the siege three decades of New York FBI's
Field Office, Manhunt's murders and mafia wars. And then what's
the other one. The one is about one hundred crooks.
What is that thing called?
Speaker 1 (52:12):
Uh, Brooklyn's most Wanted there it is yeah, I tell
you you knows as a I'm a true crime fan myself,
you know, and a lot of my work I was
a Brooklyn reporter for years, you know a lot of
I just think it's the best place in the in
the world that has such rich history. So this is
my attempt to I took you know, and there's so
(52:33):
many notorious personalities. I just took advantage of that, and
I created a weighted scale system, a notory, a notoriety,
and it just it enabled me to tell all these
little vignette yes and put it and and it was
it was against tell good stories, uh, about stuff that
I would want to read.
Speaker 2 (52:55):
Million stories Yeah, New York City from the seventies and eighties,
and not just organized crime, but also like you said,
NYPD and law enforcement, a million stories man, from that
period of time. And it's just what a rich, rich,
rich history it was. Craig McGuire, Thanks so much.
Speaker 3 (53:08):
Man.
Speaker 2 (53:09):
When the next book comes out, give me cole put
your right on.
Speaker 1 (53:11):
The ear and people keep Yeah, I'll tell you there's
something special going on at Wild Blue Press. You know,
check out check out some of the books there, just
some real If you're a true crime fan, there's just
some amazing material there.
Speaker 2 (53:24):
Well, I heard a little bird told me that they
are publishing a book by John Hickley, Yes, John Hickley Junior. Yeah,
I'm trying to. I just heard about that the other night.
I'm trying to. I'm trying to get him on it.
If you don't get any friends of it, a Wild
Blue T'll want to send them over me first, Okay.
Speaker 1 (53:44):
And I know, I know they are a big fan
of yours over there.
Speaker 3 (53:47):
I know, and I'm a big fan. That is too.
Speaker 2 (53:49):
Everybody loves the Opera Report because I run my mouth
for fifty five minutes every day. Hey, Craig Man, thank
you so much. Craig McGuire, once again Empire City under Siege,
three Deck Aides of New York, FBI Field Office, Manhunts,
Murders and Mafia Wars. And you can get that book
there at Wild bluepress dot com.
Speaker 3 (54:06):
Thank you so much, man.
Speaker 1 (54:08):
Thank Dad, You're the best.
Speaker 3 (54:09):
I have a great holiday YouTube Mande
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