George Jared : Witches in West Memphis: The West Memphis Three

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
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Okay, welcome to the Opperman Report. I'm your host, private
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(00:44):
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(01:06):
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for thirteen months, and you just got to email me
directly at Opperman Report at gmail dot com. Okay, we
got a great guest for you today. His name is
Jared George. He's got a couple of new books out,

(01:28):
practically back to back. One is called The Creekside Bones.
Reality is more Horrifying than Fiction, which I agree with,
and which is in West Memphis, The West Memphis three
and another false confession. Mister Jared, are you there? Yes,

(01:50):
I keep wanting to call you Jared by your first name. Okay,
for some reason, I want to call you Jared. I
get there, mister Jared George, Jared, tell us about yourself.
Who is George shared?

Speaker 3 (02:04):
I'm an investigative journalist. I've spent a large portion of
my career in the state of Arkansas. I'm originally from
the West Coast. I just I married a woman from Arkansas.
We raised our family here, so I've been here. I've
covered a lot of capital murder cases, politics, business. I'm

(02:24):
just kind of a hodgepodge of everything. I've been a
general Assimer reporter for many years, and you know, kind
of with the experience of covering a lot of these
capital murder cases and things like that, it was kind
of a natural progression for me at some point to
write books about it, and I got involved in the
West Memphis three case. You know, it's an internationally famous case.
I've written more stories about that case than any journalists

(02:47):
in the world, interviewed all those guys and that were
still in prison, interviewed a lot of the forensic experts
who testified at a myriad of hearing things that were
held for them. So that's kind of where I'm at
right now. I currently work for media company based in
The Rock, Arkansas called Talk Business and Politics, and I
primarily cover politics and business now, but I've covered uh,

(03:10):
you know, I just did it again. It's probably at
least a dozen capital murder cases in my career.

Speaker 2 (03:15):
Okay, great, And do you have a website where people
can can contact you and find your information?

Speaker 3 (03:21):
Actually, I just used my Facebook page. It's author George
Jared and it's on Facebook. I found that I'm kind
of an old fuddy duddy with social media, but I've
found in the last year or so that through Instagram
and Facebook I can I am able to keep in
contact with a lot of the people who read my books,
and they can they can message me through there, and

(03:43):
I mean, I'll give out my phone number. I talk
to people all the time about these cases. A lot
of them are just gut wrenching. I mean you wouldn't
think that, you know, like even living in these small
towns out in rural America. Some of them as horrifying
crimes that you can even imagine. And you know, the
Kreek Side books. I tell people all the time, my
first the first line to them is that first chapter

(04:07):
is more horrifying than any movie you've seen a big
screen for any horror nolvelugh you've ever read. And it
really happened to a family for in a little town
called Dalton back in nineteen ninety eight. So but yeah,
they can contact me through Facebook and I'll get right
with them.

Speaker 2 (04:24):
What made you the book Witches in West Memphis? What
made you call it Witches in West Memphis?

Speaker 3 (04:31):
You know, they always compared what happened to Damien Nacholes,
Jason Baal and Jesse Miss Kelly Junior, and then compared
it to the Salem Witch Trials, you know, three centuries ago,
and I just thought it was a kind of an
ironic twist. And so when I was when I was
trying to think of a title for it, it just
seemed like a natural fit and kind of what I do.
You know, most people who read true crime are you know,

(04:54):
are women. And so I went to the gym and
I asked several of my friends, you know, I said, hey,
what do you think about this title? And they liked it.
It seemed to resonate, and so when I thought it
was also a very ironic title, especially once.

Speaker 2 (05:08):
You know the facts of the case them right, because
Damon originally described themselves as a wicked in your investigation,
what did you come up with? What did you find
out to be his true in faith?

Speaker 3 (05:19):
Well, my experience in this case started in two thousand
and eight. They had what they call a series of
Rule thirty seven hearings, and basically what those hearings were.
The guys were convicted in nineteen ninety four. North sent
to prison for killing Michael Moore, Christopher Byers, and Stevie Branch,
three eight year old boys in West Memphis, Arkansas, on
May Fis, nineteen ninety three. The prosecutors in the case

(05:43):
said that these kids were killed in a satanic or
occult ceremony, and the evidence against these three was pretty
There weren't much evidence against them but the prosecute prosecuts
were able to weave a pretty good case. Not pretty good,
but they were able to leave a case together against
these guys, and so they spent They languished in prison

(06:03):
for years. Well, in nineteen ninety six, a documentary came
out called Paradise Lost the Childhood Murders in Robinood Hills.
It was released by HBO, and when it was released,
it started kind of an international purer. People were just
outraged that three people could go to prison based on
this scant evidence. So they started raising money. Guys like

(06:24):
Johnny Depp, the actor, Eddie Vedder, the lead singer for
Pearl Jam, Natalie Mains from the Dixie Chicks. They started
raising millions of dollars to try to get these guys
out of prison. So in two thousand and eight, I
was working at a newspaper in Jonesboro, Arkansas, and Jonesborough
was where the original trials were held. And so one

(06:46):
day I was at my daughter's softball game. I get
a call from editor and she says, hey, can you
go cover it? Hearing to the west, three to them
all and I said sure, I hang up the phone.
I looked at my buddy, I'm like, what's the lesson
of this three? And I then I kind of as
I talked to him about it, I kind of vaguely
remembered I had seen the documentary and I remember when
it happened. I was a teenager at the time, so

(07:07):
I kind of I went home to a little research,
you know. And so the next morning I was in
the courtroom very Barry Bonds, the baseball player. His attorney
Dennis Ruden, who represented him in the Valcos steroids case,
actually represented Damien Nichols at this point in this case,
and so he was in the courtroom and it was
a very short hearing, and you know, I thought that

(07:30):
would be the end of it. I wasn't our Copspeed
reporter at the time. I was just a backup, and
over the summer that reporter actually left our newspaper. And
since I had covered one hearing for that lasted all
twenty minutes, I was automatically the expert in our newsroom
on the West Member three K. So in the fall
of two thousand and eight, they brought in a string

(07:51):
of high profile forensic experts to testify in this case.
The first guy they brought in was a guy by
the name of doctor Warner Spitz, and he is, and
I hate to I hate to use these grandiose terms,
but he is a renowned forensic pathology He writes the
forensic pathology books that people who are studying forensic pathology

(08:15):
to get their doctorates. He's the he's the guy who
writes those books. He's he's on that level. He was
on the Congressional Assassinations Commission for JFK and doctor Martin
Luther King Jr. If I'm not mistaken, And so he
came in and he basically just blasted the prosecution's case apart.
He said that you know that the prosecutors, you know,

(08:37):
they theorized that a large night would do to cut
the victims up, and that just wasn't the case. According
to Spitz. He said that it was a lot of
turtle predation on the bodies, you know, post mortem, he said,
when you know.

Speaker 2 (08:50):
You know, And and let me asalk you for a
second there, because my question was about Damion's faith. And
now that you bring up the turtles, because that kind
of fits into But what did you come up with
in your investigation of Damien's faith? Because originally he said
he was wicking and we see now that and then
you know, we know that when he was in prison
he was part of the OTO and now he has

(09:11):
it a fascination with the OTO. He's a devout follower
of Crowley. What did you discover?

Speaker 3 (09:20):
I gotta be honest with you. I know quite a
bit about like like you know that he did study
Wickan and that he was that he did read a
lot of Alistair Crowley's stuff like that. I think my
focus was more on the stuff I have in the
courtroom because you know, and I told you know, I
told Damien when I interviewed him on death Row, I said,

(09:43):
I don't know if you did this or not. I
wasn't on a disbank. That's not for me to determine,
so I I you know, we talked a little bit
about his religion, but not a lot. He I think
at the time when I interviewed him in twenty ten,
I think he was actually u practicing Buddhism.

Speaker 2 (10:01):
Yeah, he claims to have been a Buddhist wole in prison,
but we uncovered information that he was a member of
the OTO wile in prison. That was his the church
group that he was involved in in prison, not.

Speaker 3 (10:13):
Buddhism, and that may very well be true. Like I said,
I never talked to him about that aspect of his life.
But you know, my interest in the case wasn't I
guess it wasn't as religious for me. You know. I
approached it just, you know, like a news reporter, you know.
I just wanted to get to the facts of the case.

(10:36):
You know, And I've told people many times, you know,
I can't say for certain that they're innocent or guilty.
All I can tell you is I've been in the courtroom,
and I've been I've seen many jury trials, and the
case against them is pathetically weak, so weak in fact,
that the prosecutor even told me that if they had

(10:57):
been retry to a real trial, that they would have
been it. And I got him on the record to
say that.

Speaker 2 (11:02):
Well, let me ask you this, though, Like when you're
judging somebody's credibility, their honesty, if they're lying about their
faith and their religion, wouldn't you take that into consideration.

Speaker 3 (11:13):
Yeah, yeah, I'm sure I would. I The thing about
it is, you know, I always compare It's kind of
like when you you have a there's a like a
line you know, like what are the known facts of
the case, and then what are what are you know,
like opinion based and you know, and listen he I
don't know if you've ever talked to Damien, but he's

(11:35):
a very I don't know, have to I don't know
if the word is. He transitions from things. It seems
to me pretty quickly, you know, like especially religion, you know,
like thought process and stuff like that. If you ever
talked to him, So he may be when I interviewed him,
he might have been a Buddhists that day, and he
may have been something totally different. Facts I don't know.

Speaker 2 (11:52):
Yeah, he seems fairly dedicated to Crowley. His body is
covered with these sigils. His fascination with Crowley. I don't
think you could deny. But now what do you make though?

Speaker 3 (12:04):
No, no, there's no doubt about that.

Speaker 2 (12:06):
But now, like like you said that spits Uh came
up with this theory about that the injuries were created
by turtles. And then here you have a guy who's
who's uh convicted of these murders and he goes out
and gets tattoos of turtles.

Speaker 3 (12:25):
Yeah, I mean it's bizarre. I saw Damien Echols and
Johnny Devin Lil Rock. In April, I talked to him
for a little bit. The state of Arkansas was had
a series of executions that they were going to try
to execute eight people, and I'll be honest with you,
I didn't really talk to him about any of that
type of stuff. You know. I basically just asked him

(12:46):
why I came back to Arkansas, and he just said,
you know, him and Johnny had come back to to
protest the executions because he would have been one of
the eight executed during this round. And you know that
those turtles when it's testified to that, you know, they
they brought up these large, you know pictures and they
were the injuries were triangular indentations on the bodies. I mean,

(13:10):
it was pretty clear. I mean I talked to one,
you know, forensic expert, a guy named doctor Richard super
and he also testified in the case. He was the
he was the forensic old oncologists who I d ted
Bundy is the serial killer. And he testified in the case.
And he told me, he said that just as a
as a forensic pathologist, one of the biggest problems that

(13:31):
he had with the prosecution's case was and I'll say
this just just for the record, at the time when
I'm talking to these guys, I am totally convinced that
these guys are guilty, by the way, because I you know,
I just couldn't believe that the prosecutors and the police
could get this, could get this so wrong. So when
I'm asking these questions, I'm coming from the you know,
opposite side of this. And you know, when I talked

(13:55):
to the suberin he said the first thing that was
alarming to him before he even really examined the photograph,
the autopsy photographs, he said, if you have a knife,
anybody who has a knife and they're using in the
condition of a crime, there's going to be bone piercing injuries.
He said, there is no doubt about it. He said,
you're not going to pull out a knife and just
scrape at their body, because that's essentially what their bodies

(14:16):
were filled with, scrapes. And if you've seen the autopsy photos,
not talk about but there's not one single bone piercing
injury on any of the three boys. But yet they
used an eight inch bladed knife. He said, that makes
no sense to me at all, because I've never heard
of anything like that. It makes no sense. He said,
if you have a knife, you're going to use it,
You're going to do damage with it. There's only one
reason why you're gonna pull it out. And so when

(14:36):
I talk to him, he agreed with about the triangular
indentation and the animal predation on the bodies that caused
most of the most of the damage to the bodies
was caught after the fact, after they die, after post warm.

Speaker 2 (14:50):
What do you make of that bitemark you see? It's yeah, yeah,
you know what I mean. It's been an attributed to
buyers at one point, and it's being attributed to Hobbs
by this. You've seen the coward uh mister doctor Cowart's
video there on YouTube.

Speaker 3 (15:08):
Yes, I believe that the denis from Tennessee. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah.
He contacted me years ago and and I'm again, I'm
just gonna just throw the Saturday. I have a totally
different theory about that wound on Stevie's face when I
saw it. The the first thing, when when I saw
the wound, I thought to myself, that looks like somebody

(15:29):
got hit in the face of the belt buckle, you know,
because it's got the you know kind of like the
uh in the middle of it. Yeah, yeah, that that
is a somebody took a belt and hit him in
the face with a belt buckle, you know, the bite stuff.
You know. Of course, I argued with West Memphis three
supporters for years, you know, back in the day. You know,
they they were dead convinced it was John Mark Byers,

(15:50):
and I would tell them, you know, there's no way
it was John Mark Bers because he was verifiably in
a courtroom taking a defensive driving course with his son
because he had got some kind of traffic violation. And
part of the I don't think was you had to
go through this class with your parents to get your
driver's life back. So he was verifiably not there. And

(16:11):
you know, it's it's the one, I'll say this the
part of the case that really I really started having
some doubts. I had an attorney Philadelphia who flew in
to watch these hearings, and these hearings lasted for weeks
and much longer than the original trials. And one of them,

(16:33):
this attorney came in. He came in with his girlfriend,
and I was sitting out outside the court room and
I was starting to have some doubts. You know, when
you see these forends of guys come in here and
just tear the case apart, you know, you really you
start to wonder. But then a woman asked me, She said, so,
why do you think they're guilty? And I said, well,
I you know, I covered these things, and most of
the time the police have prosecuted get these things right.

(16:55):
You know, cases aren't perfect, but most of the time
they get it right. And she said, well, what's the
one pieces of evidence that you believe definitively says these
guys are guilty? And of course the confession. I said, well,
Jesse's confession who had confessed to murder they didn't commit.
And so she said, well have you read it? And
I said, no, I haven't. And so that night I

(17:16):
went to my office and I pulled the confession out
of a file and I read it, and I was shocked.

Speaker 2 (17:21):
Which confession? Which confession?

Speaker 3 (17:25):
The original one, the one that led to the warrants
where they were.

Speaker 2 (17:28):
Rested, the first confession to police.

Speaker 3 (17:31):
Okay, yes, and he got a lot of and I
know you're aware he got a lot of you know,
just a fundamental fact wrong at the time plays. They
were bound with, you know, their shoelaces, not ropes, as
he said. And this was the key he said. And
in all of his confessions, you know, it's confessed four
or five times, but in every one of his confessions,

(17:54):
I believe I'm right about this. In every confession he
says that the boys were sawtifyed. And that's key to
me because the next expert who testified was a woman
named Janisopope, and she is a pediatric forensic pathologist. She
got on the stand and she definitively said these boys

(18:15):
were not sexually assaulted. And it's really it's disturbing, you know,
but they had they put these huge pictures of the
boys amuses up on on a screen and they had
and this isn't according to me, this is just according
to the expert witness, they had absolutely no and the
Autosi reports indicator as well. There was no bruising, there

(18:35):
was no tearing, there was no semen found, and there
was no sign of an STD and those are those
are the things that that proved sodomy. And she said
it is inconceivable that one, two or three of them
could have been raped in this way by a teenage
boy or boys, and they're not being damn it. She said,
it's simply impossible.

Speaker 2 (18:54):
Okay, But would it be inconceivable for someone who's making
confession to make a self serving confession and I give
all the facts out, or to give even an accurate
facts like if you if you catch your a husband
cheating on his wife, he might say, well, this is
the first time I've ever done it, when meanwhile it's
been going on for years and years. That's kind of right.
Those kinds of things are common, right.

Speaker 3 (19:16):
Well. The thing of it is, though, is I think
with him though since he consistently said the boys were raped,
that part of his story never changed. And even doctor
Frank Peretti, the state medical examiner for Arkansas, who in
the original trials didn't definitively say that the boys were raped,
he left the impression with the jersey, he said they

(19:36):
could have been. And when he was put back on
the stand after all, because he came untestified on this
hearing as well, after ophove and testified, he got on
the stand and he admitted on and he goes with
that in the absence of those three things, and he
said those three things were absent. He said in the
absence of those three things, then there's no proof that
these boys. Then there you could not say that they
were sodomized because they weren't. And for me, just as

(19:58):
a journalist, you know, I mean, I tell people all
the times, I don't care who. I mean, I care
who killed those three boys. But if Damien Echols did it,
then I want him in prison for the rest of
his by direct you know, or whatever the punishment is.
But if it's someone else, if it's Terry Hawes with
some other person, then you know, I you know, they
need to be prosecuted with this. Well when I when

(20:18):
I heard that, what.

Speaker 2 (20:20):
Why do you think then why would miss Kelly make
that first statement to the Buddy Lucas admitting guilt and
this in vomiting, this before he ever talked to the cops.

Speaker 3 (20:37):
The thing about the statement to Buddy Lucas, it has
never been I'm not I'm not sure if he may
or may not have made that statement. This is the
only way I you know, like from my perspective as
far as the way I operate as a journalist, if
it was presented in court, then then I can then
that to mean that it has a veracity, but it

(20:57):
was never presented in court, so to me, it's in
the realm of you know, speculation until they bring it
into the courtroom. He was never I believe I'm right
about this. I don't think he was ever deposed over
that statement or the statement that he made. I could
be wrong about that, but but it's not in the
court record.

Speaker 2 (21:17):
Yeah, but it's in a police reports. And Buddy Lucas
has never recanted this. And we know he had his shoes.
You know he had the shoes, he was wearing them.

Speaker 3 (21:26):
Right. Well, again, I've never interviewed Buddy. Look AT's I've
interviewed a lot. I mean, I've interviewed everybody in this case.
I mean from the jury foreman on down, I mean,
and I never interviewed Buddy. And here's the thing. If
you look at any any case like this, any capital
murder case, there are going to be and you know

(21:48):
that there are going to be an onslaught of false
lead rumors, things that are in police report. I mean
just because of the police force does not mean it's true.
And generally the police usually operate, you know, we can
prove this or if we think there's some validity to this,
but we'll follow this lead. And the thing about it
is this case was so weak from a from a
forensic evidence standpoint that it would be hard for me

(22:12):
to believe if they really thought Buddy that the statement
was made to Buddy Lucas, that they wouldn't pursue him harder.
And if and if they didn't, that's the I mean
that that then they didn't do their job, okay.

Speaker 2 (22:23):
And then okay, then the next confession was, you know,
the two to twelve hour confession. Okay, by the way,
did you have a settle on a time right the
light of that confession?

Speaker 3 (22:35):
Yeah? Well, you know, I you know, I always tell
people that, you know, in the first confession, you know,
you don't hear it was twelve hours, and I'm like, no,
it was only three or four. But you know, I
the confession is the part that's the and kind of
when I wrote the book, people have this really hard
time grasping that people would falsely confess to a crime.

(22:56):
I mean, I didn't think it was possible either, but
was really just ironic. Two years almost to the day
after those three were released from prison in the same
judicial district about fifty miles from West Memphis. A little
girl named Jessica Williams of an eleven year old girl.
She was out in her yard playing on her bike.
She had her puppy in a basket. Her dad looks

(23:16):
out a second time and they're gone. They go immines.
Neighbors start looking for They find her bike on the
side of a gravel road. They spend all night looking
for the Next day, they find her body eleven miles
away in a drainage ditch out in a little place
called Half Mood in Mississippi County, Arkansas, out the middle
of nowhere. In fact, the puppy. Two girls on ATVs

(23:37):
had found this puppy wandering around that area. They took
the puppy to the searchers, and the searchers took puppy
back there and the puppiy that she had led them
right to her body. Well within twenty four hours, her
seventeen year old neighighbor who rode the school bus with her,
confessed to her murderer and even got a couple of
the details right, you know. Of course, there was only

(24:00):
one question in my mind when this came down. They
put him in jail, you know, getting like a two
million dollar bond and I kept asking, this is the
same buster. You have a prosped Westmins three. It's Scott
Ahlington and I kept asking him. I said, Scott, there's
only one problem with the story. This kid didn't have
a car and he was a blow intelligence. He didn't
have a car. The body was miles away and he
was one of the neighbors helping her dad look for her.

(24:21):
So how did he get the body out there in
half an hour with no car? And he said, we
will get this all decided, you know, during the trial,
And I said, okay, Well it went on for eight months.
He just languished in jail. It was just really weird.
Well then I found out that they found one sperm
cell on this girl's body, one and with the DNA
tested the sperm cell, they found out it wasn't his.

(24:43):
It belonged to another neighbor, a guy named Franky Sharp
the third, who had come home early from work and
he had little kids who played with her and so
and they had to release him, you know, after eight
months in jail, and they said we were completely wrong.
And Scott Alington, who at that time before he told
me didn't believe false confessions I don't believe in them.
But after that, I said, city falsely confessed. He goes, yes,

(25:05):
he did, And so I bring that up just because
it is a phenomenon. People will false confessor. I go
and speak at colleges and universities and high schools, and
when I go and speak, one of the first questions
I'll ask people, I'll say, we'd raise your hand if
you would falsely confess to a murder. And I am
telling you it is unbelievable. But kids will raise their

(25:27):
hands and I'm like, and of course I'll have them
come up and I haven't explained why. And it's usually
I'm trying to help the police solve the crime. They
must think I know something that's why they're talking to me,
or I'm trying to protect loved one, or and they
go through server interests. But it's universal. Any place I go,
they raise their heads.

Speaker 2 (25:44):
And now that are the cases. That is that in
the book The Creekside Bones.

Speaker 3 (25:49):
No, it's the last chapter of Witches in Westmen Okay,
because because basically, when you boil the case down, when
you boil the West Ministry case down, it's either you
Jesse's confessions or you don't and because you know, and
to me, when I look at the the concophony of

(26:09):
scientific evidence in the case. And I want to point
this out too, because there's always a misconception about some
of the DNA testing that's been done. And I've told
people many times, you can make a good case against
Terry Hobbs, you know, I've interviewed them before, but it
would not be a definitive case. I mean you there
would still be hoops to jump through. But one misconception

(26:29):
is that the defense teams, you know, that they the
DNA testing was done, it was allowed by the prosecutors,
had to sign off on it. So it wasn't like
the you know, the you know, defense attorneys ran in there,
grabbed all the hairs and then took them to their
own laboratory. The prosecutors were in they are in like
legal possession of all these materials and they still are

(26:51):
to this day because they're they're they're wards of the state.
So any I just want to point that out because
I've had that come up before, and so just just
to know that it is is the prosecutors, it was there.
They were the ones that figned out on it.

Speaker 2 (27:05):
Let's focus on the confessions for a bit. Now, what
do you think made Jesse confess during that we'll call
the twelve hour one we might as well at this point, right,
but that that that confession, the first police confession where
he was there at the police station. What do you
think why? What would motivate him to confess falsely?

Speaker 3 (27:26):
That?

Speaker 2 (27:26):
And also too, while we're at it, how would he
know to pick two guys who didn't have an alibi
and to pick two guys who would later on make
admissions as well? How would he know to pick those
two guys?

Speaker 3 (27:38):
Well, I had the first The first part of that
is is even during the interview process with Jesse, the
police told told him that Damian and Jason were their target.
I mean, the one of the detectives who actually interviewed Jesse,
he had Damien and Damien and Jason's pictures behind his dad,
so and he was known that, and Jesse knew them.

(28:00):
I mean, everyone knew they were going. Everybody in that
community knew they were targeting Damien at I mean they
knew and everyone in the community knew it. I mean
you can go down there, you can talk to people
who think they're innocent or guilty in West Memphis. I
was in the West Memphis newspaper room not too long ago.
In that you know, every half the people in that
newspaper office swear that those three guys are guilty. Everybody

(28:22):
knew who they were after it wasn't a question as
far as the alibis. You know, I've read into like
Jason's alibi. And here's the thing. If Jason had been
tried by himself, he never had been convicted. There's absolutely
nothing that they have on Jason Baldwin. He never made
any statements to the police. His uncle said that he

(28:45):
Motor's yard at around six point thirty to seven o'clock
that night. Jason said he went to Walmart. He had
he had other like people who said, hey, this is
of course one of the things that the original defense attorneys,
one of their you know, I guess bungles was they
did not doing a good job of this publishing their alibi.

Speaker 2 (29:03):
Believe in today, when you ask Chessie what his alibi is,
he gives he gives you a lot on Facebook. You
won't tell you.

Speaker 3 (29:09):
Right, right, I mean, And as far as.

Speaker 2 (29:11):
Not chesse I meant, Chason, I'm sorry, Jason, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (29:15):
Yeah, Jason, And again I haven't. I haven't talked to
Jason in several years. I mean I interviewed him a
few years ago for a feature story I was doing
on the anniversary of the case, you know, And again
I you know, just from the what the facts that
I've been able to glean out of the court record
and things that have been said. One thing that interested

(29:36):
me a little bit was this Jennifer Bearding girl who
claimed that she had talked to Ecchos that night. And
you know, she said the conversation started around eight twenty
that night, and I you know, the thing about it
was and a lot of people who think those guys
are JUSTI will argue that, oh, well, she just making
that sort of because she wants to be a part
of the West Memphis three case. The problem was is

(29:59):
when she testified to she was going to law school,
and I told them if she got up on the
stand and perjured herself that she would never get a
law license. So who would risk their career to lie
for and you know, at that time, a notorious child killer.
I mean, who would do that? That just doesn't make
any sense to me. So I think that she probably

(30:20):
was telling the truth in that instance. And I think
if you looked into those two guys alibis, I don't
think they're perfect, but if I was an attorney, I
could make a case of them and their their original
defense attorneys did not man.

Speaker 2 (30:35):
The jury didn't believe it either.

Speaker 3 (30:38):
No, but I've actually caught it some jurors since then,
and they told me that they changed their mind about
the case.

Speaker 2 (30:45):
Okay, So the what motivated Jesse to confess during the
twelve hour confession.

Speaker 3 (30:52):
Well, in the original confession, you know, it starts off,
you know, he said that they caught the boys in
the morning on their way to school, and he said
that they were riding their bikes out to the main
highway to hitch the bus, which obviously was not true. Well,
then he starts shifting, you know, the office'll say, well,

(31:12):
it wasn't nine o'clock, and more than jessere was it
twelve novel? Yeah, okay, that sounds right, and then goes
was it twelve or wasn't two? And so he just
kept moving them along until finally he gets them into
the parameters of where they were. The reason that I
think Jesse confessed because if you read the transcript, of it.
And I've read many confessions. Confessions get clarity to crime,

(31:34):
you know, they they tie up loose end, they say, okay,
you know, like if there's a crime scene, you know,
there's a lamp, you know, broken over here, and there's
a shoe sitting over here, and there's a their door
has been opened, has been forced open in this particular way,
and when somebody comes in and confesses, it clears up
for the police all these different things. Jesse's confession didn't

(31:55):
do any of that. The person was especially, I mean,
it was just a discombobulated rambling and what I think
he was doing and kind of like what I was
talking about with, you know, this this thing where people
think they're helping the police. I think when the police
were leading him through this, he thought he was helping
them by saying, yeah, that's what happened, that's what happened.
And then he made a critical error for him not

(32:18):
realizing that when he said that he chased Michael Moore down,
that that he went from being a witness to being
culpable in the crime. And so I think that's where
he went there. And as far as his other confessions,
you know, he confessed you know, I can't remember when
it was three, four or five times or something like that.

Speaker 2 (32:37):
I don't know he could have been. But wait, what
question though, before we get to the next confessions, before
we get to the next confessions, because because some of
his stuff was confirmed, because there was eyewitnesses that saw
them on the road covered in mud, that.

Speaker 3 (32:53):
Would be the haulings Worth plan. And two of the
four of them have have said since that the that
they that they didn't see them, They said that they
were I mean, they said they were coerced by police
into saying it. And those are their statements. I mean,
I can't you know, I can't speak for them. And
the other two, I mean, I believe they're related to

(33:14):
Dominique Tier, the woman that Davey Nichols had his son
Beth with. And you know, you know that if you
look at their they would be very suspect witnesses and
a regular court wall. I mean, they have very their
backgrounds are pretty sketchy.

Speaker 2 (33:30):
Everybody. Is there anybody in this case that doesn't have
a sketchy background? One person?

Speaker 3 (33:36):
There's not many.

Speaker 2 (33:39):
It is a bunch man. Okay. So but but the
thing is, okay, we can try and punch holes and everything.
But there are witnesses who saw them on the road,
and that does kind of confirm Jesse's confession to twelve
hour confession. By the way, neither one of us believe
it was twelve hours. We're just calling it that because
of the great myth of Paradise lost. But now, what
about the one in the back of the I'm sorry.

Speaker 3 (34:00):
Believe even in the state, even in the statement. So
they said that the statements, and I believe one of
them did testify may it was Jesse's trial, But the
statement was that they saw Damien and Dominie in that area,
not Damien and day right, But they made you're racking,
you're wrecking right here. I haven't thought about some of

(34:21):
this stuff in.

Speaker 2 (34:21):
A really long time, heay me, neither. I didn't just
write a book about it either. You know, when I
was following this thing way back in the nineties, on
using it, way back when it started, and I was
into this thing, I thought they were innocent, and I
contacted the supporters. I tried to get them on our
Bell show and get them on the radio and stuff
like that and help them out. And the more I
got to know these people just the more convinced they
became that they were absolutely guilty, no doubt in my mind,

(34:42):
especially dealing with them all personally, they're just a whole
bunch of sleazy folk. But again, and I but it's
not fresh on my mind either. Okay, trust me, just
from doing this show now. But now the second confession,
this one is Jesse's already been convicted. He's in the
back of a police car. He has no reason. Now,
he's not being and intimidated, he's not being pressured. What
what Why did you do it? Then?

Speaker 3 (35:05):
I'm not sure. Honestly, I don't know. And I will
say this about that confession. I believe that the person
he confessed to, I believe that he's some he had
recanted some of that because he was going to be
brought in. I believe he was gonna be brought in
during one of the hearings and they were going to
put him on the stand because there was there's always

(35:25):
been some speculation about that confession, if Jesse really told
them anything, if there was any if there was any
real information, you know, like maybe they were just having
a conversation about the case. And I think he was
going to be deposed in courting for some reason he
didn't want to be, so he never was because you know,
you know, honestly, if there was a speculator, if there

(35:47):
was a question about it, if I'm a defense attorney,
you know, the first thing I'm gonna do, right, I'm
gonna I'm gonna say, Okay, well, I don't know if
this guy's tell the truth. Let's put him on the
stand game under oath. Let's see he's going to say
and And that didn't happen. So the second and in
the second confession, and I'm trying to remember because I
listened to all of them in court because I played him.
And the second one was a little bit better than

(36:07):
the first one. You know, I think he feared the
details he got more right. And I interviewed Dan Stidham,
you know, the original defense attorney. He's a judge now
in Green County, Arkansas. And I asked him, I said,
how can you explain how he would get more details
right in the later confessions of men? I said, that
is a you know, that is a problem I was thinking.

(36:28):
He said, not at all. He said the only reason
he got him right was because he was in court
and he heard exactly what happened, and so it's set
in his mind. And I can tell you this, and
I don't know if you've ever talked to Jesse mss
Kelly Junior or interviewed him. He is very He is
not there. I mean he is when you immediately I mean,
and you know, my wife's a teacher. He would be

(36:50):
immediately identified as a special needs student. I mean he
has very I mean I wrote a story a couple
of weeks ago when he you know, he still lives
in West Memphis, and he was driving around. Okay, he
can goes back to prison for you know, jaywalking basically,
you know, comes down to it. And he was driving
around in the villa and I in a truck with
no headlights, no insurance, and no driver's life. And I

(37:14):
you know, I called a buddy of mine knewho's a
journalist too, and I'm like, can you I mean, this
guy he has no conception, I mean, and so he
spent a weekend in the Critinton County jail because he
if you're gonna, I mean, anybody would common sense. You know,
if you're gonna drive without a driver's license, you don't
do it when you don't have headlights in your car.

Speaker 2 (37:32):
I mean actually that was his third arrest for that
offence in three months. He had three of us different.

Speaker 3 (37:37):
Yeah, there was, yeah, there was, Yeah, it was. I
didn't write about the first six holes. We didn't know
about him, but the third one I caught window.

Speaker 2 (37:45):
Well you know what, Yeah, you know what's interesting that
the reason how pretty much everybody quot win of it
is because his neighbor, Joanne Henderson Uh, who lives next
door to him and her kids go fishing with Jesse
every day. And she described herself a birth shoot back.
She the one whode the announcement try to raise funds
to get him out of jail with this stupid no
license case, you know, right right, you know, it's just

(38:07):
so crazy. But so I was chatting with her on
Facebook and I have a screenshot of the conversation, and
I said the and she says, well, you know, Jason
Jesse is not a stupid man. He's a very smart man.
And she's with him every single days a matter. As
soon as he got out of jail. He went straight
to no.

Speaker 3 (38:27):
No, he's not. I'm I'm sorry I have to disagree
with her.

Speaker 2 (38:32):
Well, maybe she's not that smart.

Speaker 3 (38:35):
Yeah, no, trust me, if you try to have a
conversation with him, I mean, he's not He's not there.
I mean he is. You know. One time I tried
to talk to him about this tattoo that he has
on the top of the head of a clock. And
this is when he was still in prison, and he
I mean, it was literally incoherent what he was saying
to me. And I was like, this is actually kind

(38:57):
of ironic too, because I was telling somebody that story
at the West Memphis newspaper when I was there a
few weeks ago, and there was a guy in there
who was a reporter but who's also like a preacher.
And he's not from here. He's from Colorado. Him and
his life moved here about three years ago. And I
guess he'd gone into that trailer park where Jesse lived,
and you know, he's you know, trying to get people

(39:18):
to come to their church and all this this and that,
and he he talked to Jesse, and he even sitting
there while I was talking to some of the people
in that newsroom. He said, there is something not right
about him. He is not there, and you know, this
is just some guy who just met him. I mean,
nobody stood out to him just because he's so you know,

(39:38):
not there.

Speaker 2 (39:39):
Yeah, but then again, you know most people convicted a murder,
aren't you know, they very low IQ you know, and
they're not there. You can hardly understand them talking and stuff.
You know, like even if you watch this TV show
the next forty eight hours where they have these interrogations
and people are confessing on TV, you can watch them,
you can hardly understand what the people are saying. They're
so low IQ. You know.

Speaker 3 (40:01):
That's true. I mean, there are several you know, just
to me, I guess the part the part about his
concessions that doesn't make sense to me is when they
are about fasodomy, because you know, when you have the
state medical examiner saying that it didn't happen, when you
have all these and the other three experts, and I

(40:22):
had mentioned Michael Boden, you know, he's pretty I mean
on Fox News and CNN. He's all over the place,
state medical examer for the City of New York. And
he testified for several days and he said and he
validated all these other theories. And I'll say this about
ob Hovin, the woman who said that the boys wor soldom.
She was not paid, She was not a paid consultant.

(40:45):
She flew on her own time. She was just She
said she was shocked and dismayed by this case when
she read about it and started going through the records.
And so I think that when you have every single
scientist who's involved in this case, including the guy who
was actually in the autopsy room examining the body, when
all of those when when the weight of those people,

(41:05):
when all of them say they were not botomized in
the one the guy who confesses to it says they were,
that's a huge problem.

Speaker 2 (41:14):
There was an additional confession where he had his hand
on a Bible and as lawyer was present.

Speaker 3 (41:18):
Right, Yes, that was in I believe in Cray County. Well,
they called, they called Dan had a run up there
and he told him not to of course he told
him not to do it. And I think that one
was recorded as well. He was in there with prosecutors.
You know one thing of you know one thing about
the confession. He were canting them because here's the thing,

(41:42):
and I'm sure you watched Paradise Laws. Sure there's that
moment where where the prosecutors are talking to the family members,
and they tell him if Jesse doesn't testify at Echos Baldwin,
we are not there's a brigade chance. We're not going
to get a conviction. And at that point Jesse he
was offered a deal, you know, to testify against them,

(42:03):
and he didn't take it. And then so he didn't testify.
And the theory was at the time, right around right
around you know, the start of the Eccles Baldwin frial,
that they probably didn't want him to testify anyway because
he was such a plate. Yeah, yeah, he would have
folded like a house of cards.

Speaker 2 (42:22):
And then and confessed again. Probably he probably would have
confessed another time. Its dead, but no, But now the
thing is, no, just think though, here you got three guys, right,
and miss Kelly points the finger at the other two
guys that says, hey, we all did this together. How
come in all these years, not once, uh, Eccles and

(42:44):
Baldwin never said, hey, maybe Jesse did it on his
own with a couple other guys. We don't know what
he did. But they've never even pointed a slight finger
over at Chessie, who's confessed several several times. Instead, they're
pointing fingers at the parents, first ad buyers, and and
now at hops. What would what do you make of that?

Speaker 3 (43:05):
Well, you know, it's fine, actually kind of ironic that
you brought that up, because it really is, because this
is actually a really big point in my head. At
one point in this when I became convinced definitively that
they were innocent. Was I was driving home one night.
It was raining really hard, and you know, I was conflicted.

(43:26):
I mean, you know, you you meet these victims families, uh,
and you write stories about them, and I've written some
pretty graphic stories about these three kids, and you're it
just tears, your tears, your arts pieces, and you don't
you don't want to know what's to believe that, you know,
you don't. I would never want to believe that these
guys were innocent, that they were guilty. I would never

(43:47):
want that in a million years. And so I was
really conflicted. And so one night I'm driving home, and
this was right after I had just done a story
about the DNA that was found, you know, the in
Michael Moore's binding. They found a hair that the d
almost certain DNA mashed for Terry Hobbs. And then his
alibi witness David Jacoby, another hair found on the stop
next to where the body was dumped. And Thompson are

(44:09):
going okay, but then it just dawned on me, like
it just hit me like a rocket. In the faith,
we think of this Westminster three as three as a
as an entity, but actually legally they're three separate people.
And you know that this this mitochondrial DNA testing, you know,
that's guy is so good. In the last few years,
there's been a phenomenon around the country. There are lots

(44:29):
of other cases where people are people think that this
guy or woman who's in prison is innocent, you know.
And so what happens is when the DNA testing comes out,
there's a bunch of people who run out and say test,
you know, test everything, test test, test tests. Those people
who want to test it are generally innocent that people
who don't want to test it are guilty. And with
these three guys, they are in a unique circumstance because

(44:51):
it's three of them. Like you said, is it theoretically
possible that Jesse committed this crime with somebody else? Of
course it is, but this is what what happened. If
they tested DNA tested the stuff that was found, that
the crime scene, and let's say Jesse's hair was found.
It wouldn't convict Eckles and Baldwin in any court of law,
but it would convict them in the court of public opinion.

(45:12):
And the millions of dollars that were flowing in from
Peter Jackson and all these other guys would dry up,
and there they would be done. And I have to
believe that an attorney sat down with Eccles, an attorney
sat down with Baldwin, and an attorney sat down with
miss Kelly and told them at one point, listen, you
are taking a risk if you guys decided to test
all this stuff, because you may not be guilty, but

(45:35):
somebody else might be. And if they it comes out
like that you, it's going to impegne you too. So
when I thought about that, thought, now, they took a
greater chance than even just somebody asking for DNA testing.
They were trusting that the other two weren't there.

Speaker 2 (45:52):
Yeah, I've heard that theory before. But the thing is,
like I said, but they've pointed that the finger at
hops and buyers. How would they know that MOSCOWI had
nothing to do with it.

Speaker 3 (46:05):
I don't know if you talked to Jason about Jesse before.
I mean literally, I've seen Jason put his arm around
Jesse in court, and you know, Jesse was just following
Jason around. I mean, he just I think and actually,
you know, now that I am thinking about it, they
did ask you know, at the press conference when the
guys were released, they asked Jason about it and they said,
you know that they took advantage of, you know, basically

(46:27):
a mentally incompetent person. And you know that that that
was the whole thing is that is that he just,
you know, he was overwhelmed by by the circumstances of
the police coming after him. And as far as like Buyer,
the thing about Buyers is Hobbes. I don't necessarily now
Damien Echols defense team has definitely gone after Hobbes after

(46:50):
they found the hair, but before them, they didn't go
after him at all. And a lot of it I
think it's this not just them necessarily. I think it's
Westminsister's supporters. I mean, like John Mark Byers. I mean,
of course Echoes thought he probably did it at one time,
but he went after it. And you know, the West
of the three supporters went after him, so I think

(47:10):
it was just kind of a frenzy. And then of course,
when you you know, if you find a suspect, if
everybody else there saying, oh, yeah it was John Mark Bers,
then of course it's just if he says I didn't
do it and somebody else did it, then you're going
to try to find somebody to take that place. So
I don't blame him for blaming other people. I mean,
that's that's a part of it. The hot is interesting
to me though, just for the simple fact that there's

(47:32):
a couple of things that really disturbed me on that front.
Number one, his hair was found on one of the body.

Speaker 2 (47:38):
No, it's not an exact match either the hair of
the DNA. It's not that ninety nine point nine percent
that it's you know, guarantee on the story show it's one.

Speaker 3 (47:48):
And uh yeah, yeah, no it's not. And I and
I I tell people this all the time, it's not.
I believe it's like one, and like there's like a
one in two thousand chance it's not his.

Speaker 2 (47:59):
Wait, just like there was blood found on eckles necklace,
right that they could match one of the victims too,
and even by the way, even if it was Hobbs
hair there, Let's say it's one hundred percent Hobbs hair
in there. These are his kids, man, they're in his house.
They're running around and they're trading. You know, this is
these things happened. You know that's that's nothing right, Yeah, no.

Speaker 3 (48:18):
No, no, And I totally get that secondary hair transfers
are real. Thing. Here's the problem. Here's the problem. There's
a one in two thousand chants or something like that.
You know, it means that a two thousand chances is
only one time would it not be his hair. Now
the Jacoby hair is even worse than that. It's like
a one in one hundred and twenty five percent. The
problem is, what are the chances that both of their

(48:39):
hairs would be in to crime Seed? And I asked
a mathematician about this, and for one of them not
to have been there, it's astronomical. I can't even remember
the number he gave me, but it was astronomical. I
was like, wow. So it's not just it's the fact
that Baltim were there. And here's the thing about Jacoby.
He denied he was with Hobbs when the boys disappeared.
Hobbs has in his own confess and when he talked

(49:01):
to police.

Speaker 2 (49:02):
Yeah, Hobbs, this whole bunch of.

Speaker 3 (49:05):
Confession an interview, his interview. But when he talks to
police about what happened, you know, because he was opened
he was opened up to discovery when he student Nalley Maine.
If you and I've and if you listen to what
he's what he says. He says he was with John
Mark Fires and Dana Moore searching for the boys at
like five thirty six o'clock that night. John marra Byers

(49:28):
has you know, sworn sworn testimony in court said he
was not with us. We and and here's the other
part of that. STEVIEE. Branch disappears that afternoon. His mom,
Pam Hobbs, at work. Terry Hobbs never calls the police
and tells him that he's missing. He walks right past her.
At nine thirty that night when he went to pick
her up from at work, he walks right past her,

(49:51):
goes to a pay phone, calls and tells the police
that his Stepstone's missing. She goes out to the car
and her their daughter. A man is in the car
and she tells and and that says Stevie's missing. He
didn't even bother to tell his wife that her son
was gone. And so to me, you know, like as
a parent, it's just weird to me. And then when
you start, when you start, you know, stacking this other stuff.

(50:12):
You know, his olbywitness say I was not with him,
but he has said this definitively sworn statement, I was
not with houb okay, but has never even data. Moore
has never said that he that he was with them either.
And if he was with them, they gave Regina Meeks
the police report at eight o'clock. Well, if he was
with them, why did her report only have the other
two boys?

Speaker 2 (50:33):
Right?

Speaker 3 (50:33):
Because he hadn't reported it. So if he was with them,
he would have said, hey, you know, my son's missing too.
So all that stuff backed on top of it. Really,
I mean it, you know, like like and I'm sure
you've been in the court room. I mean you know
what I'm talking about. You could make a pretty good
case against it.

Speaker 2 (50:49):
Oh no, well, listen, I could punch holes. And if
the West Memphis three were my clients, I'd be punching
holes all over the place too. If my clients all
made admissions that they were there and they did it.
They were witnesses that saw them, they're in the scene,
and they were blood and fiber that connected them to
the crime. Yeah, I'd go after parents, I'd do all
these kind of things. I'd find witnesses. You put up
billboards with two hundred thousand dollars rewards. If I had

(51:10):
that kind of fund, That's exactly how I do it. Okay,
And I see exactly how they did it and how
they got off of this. But now the thing is
the guys who admitted that they did this and then
were convicted and then pled guilty and had witnesses that
saw them there and had blood there and had fibers there.
These guys Eckles also made first of all eccles before

(51:33):
the crime, said, this is a crime he wanted to do.
He wanted to sacrifice the child to saint. He was
a fan of Crowley. Crowley says, find an eight year
old boy and killed the eight year old boy. You
get the most power, then, he described, asked him in
a confession, well, they probably wanted to do it. They
would get power from doing it. Then he confessed in
front of the softball girls what do you make of

(51:53):
all this?

Speaker 3 (51:54):
Well, first, okay, going back to the softball girls, who
were considered the most credible witnesses of the original trial
by the jurors, one of them has recanted and the
other one, her mother said that her daughter lies. And
that that is as the prosecutor came out with that,
because he was asked the question, you know, during the
press conference when they were released. He said that one

(52:15):
of them has definitely indicated that she was mistaken in
what she said, and the other one, her mom thinks
she's lying. And so he said that they probably would
need to testify have another trial. And as far as
you know, some of these other statements again, and I
can only and this is my perspective as a journalist,
you know, and I'm not a partisan in this case,
you know, I'm truly not. I have to go by

(52:38):
with what they presented in court. And you know, these
statements that Echoes allegedly made, they're not in the court record.
You know, there are people, there are a lot of
speculation about it, and you know, and I you know,
and I like, for me, as a responsible journalist, I
can't get into the speculation. I'm lost, like to prove it. Now,
if one of these people came in like you said,

(52:58):
like we talked about Buddy Lucas, if he came up
to me and said, hey, Jesse told me this, then
I'd write a story about it. The problem I've got
is though, that when you look at all the witnesses
who testified in this case, like Victoria Hutchinson, for instance,
who claimed that she attended to Satana at spot with
Eckles and Miss Kelly. I interviewed her. She told me
straight to my face that she lied. She said that

(53:19):
she didn't know Eckles, that the police she had a
credit card broad charge, which I verified that was you know,
they got rid of it. And she said the reason
they got rid of it was because she agreed to testify.
And she said she just made up the story. Because
one thing that always bothered me about her, because she
was identified as a reliable witness by the jurorsym Miss
Kelly trial, she didn't testify against Eckles involved one and

(53:42):
I never understood that, and then prosecutors never tell me why. Well,
then when I interviewed her, she said at that point
she was living in a hotel in Memphis and that
she was hopped up on drugs all the time, and
she was feeling so much remorse for what she had
done that she said They knew she would crack on
the stand and she would admit that she lied, and
that would blow the case of part And so you know,

(54:04):
like Michael Carson, you know who said that, you know,
Jason told him that he you know, put the kid's
ball in his mouth, which you know, I hate to
say that on our show. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (54:13):
We got wait, we got a break coming up. We've
got a break coming up. We're with George Jared. We're
talking about the book which is in West Memphis, and
when we get back, we'll we'll close up on that
and we'll get to his other book about the Creek
Side Bones reality and more horrifying that the reality is
more horrorfying than fiction. We'll be right back with more
of George.

Speaker 4 (54:48):
And now a word from our sponsors, Archival Revival. The
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(55:11):
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(55:54):
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(56:15):
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(56:36):
Archival Revival dot blogspot dot com. Don't forget this show
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(57:38):
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(57:59):
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Speaker 2 (58:37):
If you need to locate or identify somebody from just
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That's Email Revealer dot com, or you can contact me
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(59:07):
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Speaker 3 (59:32):
Now they approach base everything.

Speaker 1 (59:47):
Prepare your mind to experience.

Speaker 3 (59:52):
American Freedom Radio.

Speaker 1 (59:58):
It's the Operation Report. Join digital forensic Investigator in PI
Ed Opperman for an in depth discussion of conspiracy theories,
strategy of New World Order resistance, hi profile court cases
in the news, and interviews with expert guests and authors
on these topics and more. It's the Opperman Report, and

(01:00:21):
now here is Investigator Ed Opperman.

Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
Okay, welcome back to the second hour of the Opperman Report.
I'm your host, Private Investigator Ed Opperman, and I remember guys,
Member section. Member section has been updated. Oh boy, check
out the member section. I interviewed Michael the Black Man,
Maurice Simonett, the guy you see beside behind Trump holding
up the sign Blacks for Trump and he goes off
on me for ninety minutes. Okay, this guy, So you

(01:00:50):
gotta check that out. And coming up this weekend, I
have Wanita Broadwick and Charles Ortel comes back and tells
us about the Clinton Foundation. But when to Broadwick. I'm
taping with her tomorrow afternoon, and she's coming out with
a brand new book. You better put ice on that,
the story of the woman raped by Bill Clinton. We
need a broadwreck coming up tomorrow. Today, we have an

(01:01:11):
excellent guest. I'm really enjoying this. We have George Jared,
who's a great sport and I want to thank you. George.
He's the author of two books back to back coming out,
The Creek Side Bones, Reality is more horrifying than fiction,
and Witches in West Memphis, which we've been talking about
for an hour, the West Memphis three and another false Confession. George.

(01:01:33):
I really want to thank you because I know it's
not easy coming on a show, you know what I mean?

Speaker 3 (01:01:37):
All Right, Hey, it's part of it, you know, I.

Speaker 2 (01:01:41):
Know, man, But listen, it's so much easy. Go on
a nice show. You're selling your book. Let me tell
you about the Creek you know, and hey, you got
this pan in the ass opera bid busting your balls
over here.

Speaker 3 (01:01:50):
So I promise to you when if you're sitting in
a jail cell with you know, a serial killer, I
actually have that conversation. Talk to anybody. I mean, sometimes you
just have to agree to disagree.

Speaker 2 (01:02:03):
Right, I hear you, man. And that's another thing I
was going to ask you too, because I was going
to ask you earlier on but I really wanted to
get into the meat of the case PTSD. You know,
we're both sort of like in the same kind of
trenches talking to these people and doing these kind of
cases and stuff. Do you have any kind of PTSD
that the stress and the strain of going through these stories,
like you said, talking to these victims and stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:02:24):
I've had. I didn't realize this the one the first
chapter of the Creekside Bones. I was covering dual capital
murder cases for the two guys who were convicted in
that case. And I didn't realize that. My kids and
WTE told me later that I was. I would scream
at night in my sleep, and I you know it
it bothers me, I guess because I've been doing it

(01:02:46):
for so long now, you know, like when you've been
on death row several times, I mean, you know, it
gets to a point where you're kind of defensiized to it,
and I will I will point this out too. The
first murder case I ever recovered is still unsault to
the day. And that was actually with the search party
they found her body. So I saw her. She was
a college student, and I'm friends with her dad, and

(01:03:08):
you know, and he's he's a he's a dentist, a
real good guy, and I've had to have some pretty
graphic conversations with him before about this case, about that case.
So yeah, I mean there's a certain level of that.
But you I mean, you do this long enough, you
just get get you get thicker skin. And like I said,
I've mostly covered politics and business now, which you know,

(01:03:30):
politics could be just almost as bad at some point
then business. You know, it is what it is. So
uh but yeah, a little bit of that.

Speaker 2 (01:03:38):
No, I hear you. I cover a lot of politics too,
you know, but something keeps drawing me back to these
kind of these kind of cases, and it does, man,
it just wears you down. Anyway, me too.

Speaker 3 (01:03:48):
I'm signing up to like I'm getting ready to start
writing a new book, and next week I'm going to
meet with a detective on an eighteen year old cold
case that is kind of like an urban legend in
a town here in Arkansas. And I just had a
blue I saw it at the gym. I'm like, we're gonna,
We're gonna go ahead and get this thing going. And
I don't know a lot about the case, but by
next week I will.

Speaker 2 (01:04:08):
That's another question. I wanted to ask you that because
if these books came out almost back to back, pretty
much in the same year, now, did you work on
them boat at the same time, bouncing back and forth,
or you finished one and started the other.

Speaker 3 (01:04:20):
What happened was is I my original premise. I wanted
to write a book because I get asked to speak
a lot about being a journalist. You know, I've interviewed
I interviewed a physicist who worked in Area fifty one.
I've interviewed a woman who she turned a hundred. She
was one hundred and thirteen the last time I interviewed her,
she was like the fifteenth oldest person in the world

(01:04:40):
or something like that.

Speaker 2 (01:04:40):
You want to know what I had to do her mother?

Speaker 3 (01:04:44):
Yeah, I mean I'm survivers. You know, I interviewed a
kid who died from cancer. I interviewed in like three
hours before he died. I've interviewed a lot of had
a lot of unique experiences in journalism, and so I
get asked to seek about a lot of these things.
Obviously seeing for her case, I actually saw the victim
playing in the books. So I get asked to speak
about all this stuff. So I thought to myself, you know,

(01:05:06):
if if it's interesting enough to have me come in
and talk about it to a group, maybe somebody would
like to read a book about being a journalist. And
so I thought, okay. I started compiling all this stuff,
and I'm like, man, this is a lot. So I thought, okay,
let's just let's just well divide it into two books,
like interesting experiences, you know, like you know, interviewing guy
who worked at Eric fifty one for a few years,

(01:05:27):
and then you know, like the murder cases because from
crime Is, you know, it's a big topic. A lot
of people like to read about it. So I compiled
most of these books together, and you know, I I
you know, when we started the editing process, I took
it to my first editor and we met Nate lunch
and he told me, he's like, man, he goes it's good,
he goes, it's all good. He said that you've got problems.

(01:05:49):
You can't put all this in one book. He says,
you're gonna blow somebody's brain. There's literally their mind been
explode from all this gravity. He says, why don't you
tried to divide it into at least two books? And
so that's kind of what I did now. In order
to write the second book to criticize Zones, I did
have to add a couple more chapters to Bob Castleman case,
which I'm sure we'll talk about a little bit. I

(01:06:10):
had to add that I had. I had to rearrange
a few things, the ordering of it. So it actually
took me a little bit longer than I wanted, just
because I had to to change gears. But it didn't
make sense at the end of the day. It didn't
make sense to me to just basically have a book
about the West Memphis three and then another false confession
and the the intro to the book, however, is the

(01:06:31):
case I was talking about, the Rebecca Gould case, the
college student who Goose case has never been solveding out
to write about it in the second books too. So
that's kind of the thought process. And now I'm I'm
going to try to write at least one more true
crime book I've got, you know, and then after that
I'm going to try to maybe write it, you know,
just an interesting person, you know, a book about interesting

(01:06:51):
people I've met through the years, because I've met a bunch.
I mean I heard you heard in your intro you
said something that I wanted to broader it. Well, you
know Bill Quinton in Arkansas quite a bit, so I've
been around in some so I you know, asked him
questions and stuff like that. So yeah, he just running
everybody down here. This is a crazy place.

Speaker 2 (01:07:08):
Okay. Then hey, how about when you went down there?
Did you see anything with that Mina Arkansas? Because I
interviewed the lawyer for the mom the boys in the tracks,
you know Lynn Ives.

Speaker 3 (01:07:20):
Yes, I am aware of that case. I've read about it.
I've never I haven't done anything with it. I mean
there's already you know, obviously there was a book written
about it, and I know the case is interesting to me.
The problem with cases that old is forensic forensics have
gotten so much better just in the last ten or

(01:07:41):
fifteen years than they were back then. And when you
start talking about a case that is thirty years old.
And I will say this, by the way, I covered
a case last year where it was a fifty year
old cold case murder case, and they finally arrested and
convicted a guy on so you know, I'm not thinking
it's impossible to prove something. But yeah, that's a very
interesting case that for sure.

Speaker 2 (01:08:03):
Oh yeah, that lawsuit, the Freedom of Information Act lawsuit,
if you read that, oh man, it just lays the
whole case out, man. And I got that in the
members section. But but real quick back to Eccles because
you mentioned some of his claims that you know, it's
in exhibit five hundred that was entered into evidence, right,
and and the other thing. Two was with the softball girls. Okay,

(01:08:26):
if you read those police reports of that night there
at the softball field, like, it wasn't just those three girls.
The whole place was an uproar. People were changing their seats,
they were leaving, you know, it was an uproar. All
the little kids are running to their parents. And hey,
he just said he killed them and he's gonna kill
three more. It wasn't just those three girls. And Eccles
is the one who lied about that. He lied about
that twice. First he said that.

Speaker 3 (01:08:48):
Okay, first of all, the reason that there's only two mention,
because those are the only two that testified right, and
there was. And here's the thing. If this is are going,
they testified in court, and nobody else is at the
Baull Park testified. And if the prosecutor had somebody who

(01:09:08):
legitimately heard him say at beside those two, if the
prosecutor had them, and again that's not to say that
it wasn't set. If the prosecutor legitimately had someone else,
then they would have they would have used them, because
these softball girls were kind of unreliable in a couple
of respects, just because they said they couldn't remember or
didn't hear him say anything before or after that one stayment.

(01:09:28):
And now, you know, fast forward to right now, at
least one of them is coming out and saying, no,
it's not true. And the other one, her mom was
going to say, you know, was and the prosecutor told
me was set to say, hey, you know. And this
is all coming from the prosecutor. This isn't me speculating
or something that comes from like an internet board. This
is something the prosecutor said during a press conference. He says,
these these would be not be reliable witnesses at this point.

(01:09:50):
And so when you juxtapose that I mean in a courtroom,
that's what you go by, what you can prove in
a courtroom. And you know, if if witnesses are changing
their stories, that bear that's a that's very problematic. I mean,
you know you tend to I don't give it much
veracity when somebody tells me two competing stories, you know,
and then you know, like I said about Victoria Hutchinson,

(01:10:12):
you know, you know she lied. I mean she And
here's the thing. The judge wouldn't even let her testify
at the hearing because they wouldn't grant her immunity because
they said, well, she might be committing perjury now instead
of back when she made the original statement. And I've
made the statement in the court room, and John Martin
Barnes was sitting right behind me, I said, why don't
you just give Graham immunity. I mean, let's get to

(01:10:35):
the truth of this case. Let's find the truth. That's
what we should strive. Our justice system has to strive
for this, right.

Speaker 2 (01:10:41):
Damon gave two conflicting stories about the softball girls on video.
First he said the first time that they made it up,
and then he says, well he was just joking.

Speaker 3 (01:10:49):
Years later, and so yeah, And here's the thing, Damien
did not help himself out at all with a lot
of the statements that he made. And I told him
that when I interviewed him on Deathel, I said, you know,
a lot of reason you're here right now is because
you said a lot of stupid stuff. And he goes, yeah,
he totally agreed. He said dumb things, you know. And
I say this, and I know you think they're guilty,

(01:11:10):
but I say this in a court where in a
court of law, we have to go where the facts leaders.
And you know, the DNA is powerful evidence to me,
the fact that these witnesses are change. They change your statement.
And here's the other thing about Echols making those If
he made that statement at that softball field and the
girl said that there was a group of people around them,

(01:11:31):
if he made that statement, why hasn't at least one
person come forward and says, you know what, he made
that statement. I heard him say it. Because if you're
not doing that, if you if you heard it, and
you're not doing that, then you're defending a child killer.
And I just cannot believe that all of these people
would defend a child killer. I just can't believe it,
and so you know, and then I talked to you know,

(01:11:51):
like you talked to Pam Hobbs. I've interviewed her a
few times and she's dead. She's dead convinced that Perry
did it.

Speaker 2 (01:11:57):
She said, oh wait, check it out. She's made conflicting
statements on that, and Terry has text messages from her
where she says she doesn't think he did it.

Speaker 3 (01:12:07):
And that's recently she told us she told me to
my face, like my face told me that she thought
he did. And I wrote a story about it. And
here's the thing, and you're right, she is conflicted about it.
Because I was on the phone with her one day
talking to her about something and she said, hold on,
I got to talk to Terry for a minute. Yeah,
clicks over, and I'm sitting here going, okay, last time
I talked to you told me this dude like murdered

(01:12:27):
her son, and now you're just talking to him. And
asked about the last time I talked to her, I said,
how can you justify in your mind if you think
the guy killed her son talking to him? And she said,
quite frankly that they have Amanda together, they have grand
kids together, they still have connections that can't be ignored,
you know. But you know, she told me things like

(01:12:47):
he would keep he kept all the Stevie's possessions in
a trunk, and you know, he wouldn't let her look
at them. And that's just the bizarre our behavior. I mean,
why would you do that? And you know it's not
something I think she's lying about. I mean, think about him.
If you ever meet her, and you know, again it's
it's she was in a Critindon County jail, I believe,
and when Jesse was in the same jail.

Speaker 1 (01:13:08):
You know.

Speaker 3 (01:13:10):
But if you ever meet him and talked to her,
she she does come across as pretty genuine, you know,
you know, and she's she's been. I mean, Terry left
her two weeks after the murders. He moved to you know,
a little town called Arty in Arkansas. You know, they've
been on again, off again for many many years. I'm
into drugs, out of the drugs. You know, it's just
been an Amanda the daughter. You know, Terry tell me

(01:13:31):
what you know. When amy Berg did that movie West
of Mensa, she actually came to Jones and consulted with
me for a while. In the case before she made
the film, and he told me one time he called
me up. He's like, man, I'm so scared that they're
gonna put this memory and because Amanda was at that
time that there was rumors going around that she was
going to see uh Tis and you know, she he

(01:13:56):
teld me. He says, man, I'm scared to death that
they're gonna they're gonna they're gonna con this memory in
her of me beating Stevie and the Spriends up in
our house and uh, you know, and he goes, I'm
just scared of that that that that that she's gonna
think I did it. And I'll why okay, you know,
and I'm like, why would you, I mean, why would
you call it? Tell a report that you know, just weird.

Speaker 2 (01:14:20):
Yeah, there's no shortage of weirdness unfortunately. Yeah. And I
can go into my experience with some of these people too.
It's weird.

Speaker 3 (01:14:28):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (01:14:29):
But but now you talk about the witnesses changing, you know,
years later, changing their statements. Okay, Uh, you are very
familiar with the supporters and the way they stalk people
and harassed people and intimidate people, and oh yeah, yeah,
so well, of course witnesses are gonna Why wouldn't a
witness come forward and support that they heard, uh this

(01:14:51):
what happened at the softball field? Are you crazy? You know,
I get a headache doing these shows, and plus you
you must, you must get headaches doing this too.

Speaker 3 (01:15:00):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, but I guess my perspective is
that I think that most people in general are responsible
enough that Okay, if those girls really heard them make
this statement that that's softball field, if they really heard it,
then there should be no force on her that should
not compel them to walk into a court of law
and say we heard this. I mean, I understand getting

(01:15:22):
harassed by supporters is one thing, but you know there
are laws that stop. You know, basically you can you
can spot for being really harassed, but just the simple
fact you know that, you know, you go right down
the list of witnesses. Tory Hudginson came out that you liked.
Michael Carson looked right into a film, you know, in
that movie West of Memphis. He looked right into the

(01:15:42):
camera that Jason, I'm sorry, I mean, when you start
pulling away all these witnesses, and here's the thing, at
some point, you know, like, if these guys really did
this crime, I would have to think that some point
there would be some like evidence that would surface, you know,
like when they were doing all the DNA testing on
all the stuff that they found at the crimes. At

(01:16:02):
some point, you go, something would have to come up.
Some witness would step forward and say, yes, I heard
Damien Eckill say this at the softball game. You know,
I just keep thinking that there has to be some
goodness in somebody if they really heard these things. I
really thought they were true. But they come out say
you know what they did it, and then you know,
like in the exact epithin keeps happening. You know, there

(01:16:23):
are three women who were on their way to church
that night, and you know, the night of the murders.
You know, they're pulling out of their driveway. The three
boys come through their yard at six thirty. You know,
everybody we're in the South down here, so everybody knows
church starts at seven on a Wednesday, and you know,
at six point thirty they're pulling out of their driveway.
One of the girls knew Christopher's older brother because they
went to school together, and she told him, she said,

(01:16:45):
your brother is looking for you, and he told her,
he said, you're not my boss. You don't tell me
what to do. And at that moment, the girl, the
mom and two girls pull out of their driveway and
as they're pulling out, they look up the road and
the three boys are headed up the road because they
see Terry Hobbs motioning them up the road. They signed
sworn half a David to this story, and when they

(01:17:06):
were interviewed about it, they said, well, why didn't you
say this was in two thousand and nine when the
story came out. They said, why didn't you say something
back in nineteen ninety three and they said in one
of the women who was interviewed, she said, well, I
didn't realize that he was claiming that he didn't see
him that day, because that's Terry Hobbs's story, is that
he did not see those boys that day. These three women,
if they're telling the truth, all that has to happen

(01:17:27):
is these three women are telling the truth, and then
you've got Terry Hobbs and these and the three voice
together at the moment they disappear, and then we'd have.

Speaker 2 (01:17:35):
To throw away at everything else. Well, okay, are you
aware of the whole story.

Speaker 3 (01:17:41):
That's what I'm saying. If these three women are telling
the truth, and if I'm a prosecutor, you know what
three people I really want to get into a room
and grill, it'd be those three because if he's in there,
if he's in their presence, when he definitively says I
was not with them, and these three women say they
saw him, they signed sworn out the David saying it,

(01:18:01):
And if he's lying and they're telling the truth, then
that means he was with them right around the time
that they that they witnessed it.

Speaker 2 (01:18:09):
Yeah, and see, but it's such a stretch to go
searching on for other people when you have three guys
who said they wanted to do this, they did it,
they confessed to doing it, They admititative friends they did it.
They did failed polygonis.

Speaker 3 (01:18:19):
Now there's there is one misnomer and about I mean,
I've heard that he confessed. If you actually go back
and look at everything that he said to the police,
because I you know, obviously doing my due diligence, I've
got literally I've got a file on this case. I
would go from the floor to the to the ceiling almost.
But if you're back to look at what he said.
He didn't. He never confessed to the crime. What he

(01:18:40):
said was that the officer offers him, he says, well,
you're never going to tell us what happened, and he
said no, And yeah, there's a lot of ways you
can read into that. I mean, like when I like,
when you read it, it's always this is this is
a great exercise and I love this. In politics, you
can take a statement and you can give it to

(01:19:01):
a liberal and they'll read it one way, and you
give it to a conservative and they read it a
different way. It's just really weird, you know. Or an
independent you know, they'll and they'll read it a third
different way. So but he never confessed. I mean that
that he if he had confessed, that would been he
when he was on the stand, they would have said, okay,
you confessed, and that never happened.

Speaker 2 (01:19:20):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:19:21):
But he did know about the confession.

Speaker 2 (01:19:24):
Do what he failed a polygraph and then he said,
if my mother comes, I'll tell you everything, right he
said that, okay.

Speaker 3 (01:19:31):
But again when he was on the stand, he never confessed.
I mean, I mean he didn't. I mean, I you know,
the confession was when he said, hey, I did this,
and I did it you know all stuff. He never
did that.

Speaker 2 (01:19:42):
No, just the softball. But what about are you familiar
with the whole story about true Romance seventy nine Jesse's
internet girlfriend while he was in jail.

Speaker 3 (01:19:54):
Not. No, I'm actually I'm.

Speaker 2 (01:19:56):
Not okay, because there's an incident instance of someone who
was once a supporter. She was donating nine hundred dollars
a month to their commissary fund, okay, And she was
in contact with Jesse all the time. And then when uh,
there was a little dispute and she broke up with
Jesse and and believes that he's guilty. They were putting
notes on her car and stuff at that. So you

(01:20:17):
talk about why don't people come forward, and that that
there's stalking laws. There's people stalking from all over the country.
People are trying to get into my house from Dallas,
Texas because of my mediocre involved in this case, you know, right, Yeah,
So no, I.

Speaker 3 (01:20:33):
Are very friendly. I mean I've been they or they
really you know, and like like I told, like I
told you earlier. I mean I'm not a supporter. I
mean I what I am and I'm just I'm just
a journal, and you know this is what we you know,
and you've done this many times, you know. I go
into a court room, I take a case, I say, okay,
here's the forensic evidence, here's like you can talk about alibis,

(01:20:56):
where the alibi witnesses, and then you take the witness statement.
And like I said, if those three women are telling
the truth, is the game over. I mean, because that
means he was with them at the time, his dnage
at the crime scene, his alibi witness, the DNA at
the crime scene, his alibi witness to say that he
was not with them at the time. That is a
pretty iron clad case. I mean in a court work.
Not defenditive, I'll say that, not defendive, but that's a

(01:21:17):
very strong thing.

Speaker 2 (01:21:21):
Well, well again except that you got the other guy's confessing,
you know, but all.

Speaker 3 (01:21:25):
Right, one guy, one guy, well.

Speaker 2 (01:21:28):
Well, well, the one guy you know who before he
got into the police station he had made admissions and
he confesses several times with the police hand on a bible.
And then the other guy's jailhouse confessions to fellow inmates.
Even Jesse had a jailhouse confession fellow in me. It's
just all over the place, and I can understand now
for years later.

Speaker 3 (01:21:47):
I believe the Jesse ones right now. So again, like
the Jason Balder won, Carson came out and said he
was sorry. I mean, the guy was hopped up on LSB.

Speaker 2 (01:21:55):
I mean, that's the Carson warry, but Jesse had won
his own. Jesse had to sell Maate the rule a
letter to the DA and he said, I don't want
anything from this. I'm just telling you this is a
dangerous guy. You shouldn't be out there walking around.

Speaker 3 (01:22:06):
Oh yeah, no, I'm aware of that. Yeah, yeah, I'm aware.
I mean yeah, and you know Jesse, I mean he
was you know, he's obviously kind of lived a thug
life before and after the you know, I mean, you know,
he's just that kind of that guy. I mean, there's
no other way to say it. I mean, but yeah,
but the Michael Carson thing, I mean I thought that
was a total BS because even even before he came

(01:22:29):
out and said, you know, apologize to Jason for what
he did, I thought that was thes just for simple
fact that it's just a weird you know. Oh he
gives them one sentence, Oh yeah, I put their balls
in my mouth and I'm like, man, I mean, that's
that's not right, that's not real. I mean you can
tell what somebody who's like full of crap and you know,
like eving a real statement.

Speaker 2 (01:22:49):
You know, well, I guess we can disagree on that one.
We're getting we're getting to the end, okay, because we
got to like thirty with ninety minutes. It's one hundred
twice toget like thirty minutes left. And I want to
get into the other book too. Okay, Okay, Now there
was a line I saw in this because only briefly

(01:23:10):
the book is the Creek Side Bones. Reality is more
horrifying than fiction. Something about living in a barrel?

Speaker 4 (01:23:15):
What is that?

Speaker 3 (01:23:18):
Okay, So I'll just tell you the story. Yeah, it
starts on a rainy night in July twenty ninth, nineteen
ninety eight. Family affords me to go to bed. The
La family. There's a knock at the door. A friend
is having car trouble and they live next to the
Elevenport River, this really beautiful river up in northern Arkansas.

(01:23:42):
And so the dad the mom goes in and makes
a glass of tea for the friend, and the death
puts is shoes on. They go down there. The dad
is his name is Carl. He's a great mechanic, So
he goes down there to examine a car. There's a
pounding rainstorm going on. Well, while they're down by the river,
Carl gets shot twice and thrown into the river. The

(01:24:07):
killer or killers returned to the house. I mean they
kicked the door open. The killer had a tire tool
in his hand. So the six year old boy runs
up to him, and I think he ran up to
him because he thought it was his dad. Because the
killer drove the dad's car back it's underburnt, and when
he comes in there, he crushes this kid's head like

(01:24:30):
an eggshell. The forensic pathologists to the friends of pathologist
who testified, said the kid probably would have died from
that blow alone. But then the killer turned the tire
tool to the sharp end and jammed it all the
way through his throat and he blet out right on
the living room floor. So then the mom comes running

(01:24:51):
in to try to stop all this stuff happening, and
the killer hits her in the head, hits her in
the head and body twenty seven times with this tire tool.
The detective who worked at the crime scene. I talked
to him. He said that he has had knifers about this.
It was like a blood bath, and their blood everywhere.
So then the killer goes into the little girl's room,

(01:25:13):
eight year old Felicia, and you can see in the
pictures there's a tire tool drop amongst all of her
stuffed animals. Who's hiding under her bed declare taper wraps
her blanket and from the trunk of the thunderbird getting ready.
When the killer notices something crawling across the yard in
the in the night, it was Lisa. She went up,

(01:25:34):
She climbed up the kitchen window. She was cleared the
next door him. She was trying to get to them. Well,
the killer runs up behind her and as she literally
has her hand on their door, there's a bloody imprint
on the door. He flat to her throat from and
she bleeds out. So the little girl was taken, and
of course everybody was in the pano if they thought

(01:25:55):
that Carl killed his watching son, you took the ship
and then they found it body of the river. A
couple of days later than they knew that he hadn't
done that. Well, then a few years later, in September
two thousand, a hunter is walking and he sees some
bones in the.

Speaker 2 (01:26:13):
Cree hm sleep night.

Speaker 3 (01:26:28):
And so what what the uh? Oh? And well he
the murders that they are being Champion and Bill Shad
were a big work. They were very violent. Billy was

(01:26:49):
the patriarch, and basically word got out that he had
that people's Carl and his family because Carl owed them
a drug dead. There were some people saying it was
like pop plants at one point. So he's can what
they decided to do. Prosecutors again, almost no forensic evidence,
tying needs two to the crime. But what happened was

(01:27:12):
is his wife Mary, Billy's wife Mary, and Chad's mom.
She went to the police and said they killed the family.
And they had been pretty big suspects for the police
for years because Carl had had dealings with them and
there had been a falling out between them. The police
kind of knew that. So they get the sun to turn.
The son says, it was my dad, you know, we

(01:27:33):
lured him out there, We killed them, you know, blah
blah blah the way I'm back and wiped out the family.
And so Billy gets a death sentence, and then Chad
it's thirty seven years for raping on an unrelated rape
of an eight year old relative, and these four capital murders. Well,

(01:27:53):
in two thousand and two thousand and six, two thousand
and seven, somewhere in there, the Arkansas Supreme Court comes
in and rightfully returns their conviction because one witness on
the stand, who incidentally is the same witness is now
she murdered her own husband. Funny enough, she said that
Billy Green scared her and that she thought he had

(01:28:14):
something to do with her nephew's murder, which happened prior
to the labirds. And of course you can't do that.
I mean, at that point, the judges immediately got to
call him a strap, you know, So I started covering
you know, their capitol. In twenty eleven, to make a
long story sort, Chad, you know, testified against his dad
the first time. The second time he said, I'm not

(01:28:35):
doing this. So then the prophet here said, well, if
you're not going to testify, then we're going to take
away your cozy little deal, and we're going to charge
you a four capital murder in that separate count of
child break. And he's like, okay, well did his attorneys
argue it was double jeopardy. I think they almost went
to the US Supreme Court over it. Well, then finally
it was determined that it was not. If he was

(01:28:55):
not going to agree to the plea deal, then the
plea deals didn't exist, which seems right. So he was
charged with Fort Camp's capital murder. And what happened was
is he he told inmates that he kept the girl,
the little girl, in a barrel, and he kept her
strapped up in the garage and he would only bring

(01:29:15):
her out to do horrifying things to him. And the
most surreal moment for me in his trial, maybe the
whole episode, was one of the inmates got on the
stand and you know you've been in there, you've seen him.
You know, when inmates testify, it's one of those things.
I mean, you know, what are they getting out of it?
But this guy seems pretty legit. And he said that

(01:29:38):
the reason that he took the girl, that Chad took
her is because he wanted to enjoy her and because
she was going to die anyway. And I mean you
could if you just saw the look on the jurors faces.
I mean that room, just think how.

Speaker 2 (01:29:57):
Old was little girl. She was a It's just amazing. Now, Yeah,
what is going on down there in Arkansas? What all
these kind of cases like this?

Speaker 3 (01:30:08):
Oh man, I got a bunch of them. The last
chapter in the book is about a guy who was
a district attorney or he was a judge for a while.
He was a really prominent attorney. He ended up mailing
a live copperhead snakes to his neighbor because they got
into a dispute, and he went to federal prison over it,
lost his walleye. And then when he got back out,
he started the biggest meth operation in the mid South,

(01:30:32):
and he murdered a dude three days before he was
going to testify an open court about the whole operation.
He just whacked him. And then while this is all
going on, he's peddling Native American artifacts on the side
and claiming insurance on him and he got pops for
insurance fraud by the SAIDs on that. So, yeah, that
case is why anybody who wants any of your listeners

(01:30:55):
want to read that book. That last chapter is insane.
I mean that guy's like the guy from Breaking I
mean he literally he really happened. But anyway, back to
the Green case. So I'll say this and I give
this analysis at the end of it. I don't agree
with the prosecutors in this case completely. I think that Chad,

(01:31:17):
you know, that was the one dependent on Billy, because
Billy was this He was such a bad criminal that
if he didn't even get convicted of these four capital murders,
he would be in jail for the rest of his life.
On other drove related charts. He had that much stackagu
And he testified and this, and you'll find this interesting.
He actually testified in his own at his trial. He
testified in his own defense, you know. And that's unheard

(01:31:38):
of it a captain murder trial for a defendant to testify.
And he did. And here's the thing. And I was
sitting with, you know, a gaggle of reporters from you know,
all over the place, and every one of us thought
the same thing when he testified. We thought that he
was mostly telling the truth, that he wasn't there, that
Chad actually killed the family by himself. And so and
I go through that in that after I just kind

(01:32:01):
of I lay out, you know, all the facts in
the case, what we know about Chad, what we know
about Billy, and then what I think actually happened, and
so and then there's a I've got another chapter in Okay,
it's actually her shorts in the book, and it's about
a woman named Bridget Fellers. She goes for a walk
one day on a road called Peace Valley Road and

(01:32:22):
she vanages and for years. I saw her missing poster
at a at a grocery store one night and I
just kind of kind of remember it well when I
was still in college. Then well, then I started, you know,
for newspaper and asked my editor, I said, have you
ever write about the woman who disappeared? And there was
like posters over and he had no idea what I
was talking to about. So I started doing something big

(01:32:44):
and around and come to find out, I found the
name of this one on half of one of the
missing posters, and I got a number, and so I
was trying to track this vand down forever. Well, one
day my sister comes into visits. She lives at a
and she would come to visit my kids, and she
bought them a sprinkler and it didn't work. So we

(01:33:04):
decided we were going to drive off Peace Valley Road,
the very road where this woman disappeared. We drive down
that road to uh to a lake. We're just going
to go swimming, and as we're sitting there talking, she
has a card in her hand and she had been
talking to a woman in line at the store when
she bought the sprinkler, and the woman was telling her
that she had a Saint Bernard's puppy Debs for sale.

(01:33:26):
And as soon as I heard that, I just kind
of glanced over at the cart and the card was
the was the was the woman I was looking for
at the end, and had her cell phone number on
there and everything, and I knew she was a dog breeder.
I knew that, so immediately I called her, and sure
enough it was the ant. So I went and talked
to her, and I wrote a story about this woman vanishing.

(01:33:46):
She had a couple of kids that were living with
the ant, and so so the police weren't doing anything.
And part of that wasn't just it wasn't incompetence necessarily.
There was actually a jurisdictional matter because the road bifer
kates two different counties, and literally where they ended up
finding her body was on property that was in both counties.

(01:34:07):
So it's hard to you know, determine it, but with
a real I mean where they found her body. They
the guy who killed her was actually her own uncle
who she had accused him of minor sex abuse back
when she was a kid. He had saw her on
the road walking. It was an uncle on the other
side of her family, not related to the aunt that

(01:34:28):
I'm talking about. So what he did is he chopped
her body up and stuffed her in septic tank. Because
they had cadaver dogs that went through his property when
he became suspective, and they never find anything. And when
they went back they found somebody had told him that
he had stuffed the body in the septic tank and
the dogs was hit on it. But when I went
back and looked, they only found like her small bones,

(01:34:50):
and because he had gone in and fished all the
big bones out after the first search of his property.
And what is ironic about that? I went to the
ants house to interview her, and I interviewed her and
I took a picture of a Bridget's son, who was
like two or three at the time, swinging on a
swing as the crow flies. From where I took the picture,

(01:35:12):
the septic tank and the mound of dirt where the
gate on the front of it was right there. It
was only like a few hundred yards away. Because these
two like the ant was on her mom on Bridget's
mom's side, and the uncle was on the dad's side.
They were unrelated, they didn't have any you know, they
lived on the same road, but they had nothing to
do with each other. But I took a picture of

(01:35:33):
the sun and his mom was floating in a septic
tank maybe two three hundred yards away.

Speaker 2 (01:35:41):
It seems like a thread going through all this stuff
is a lot of incests and sexual abuse in these families.
Is that something that goes on lotdown there?

Speaker 3 (01:35:49):
It's something that happens. I mean, I personally think that
stuff like that goes on there, you know, like everywhere.
One thing about it, you know, like I you know,
I grew up on the West Coast, lived in Arkansas,
And to me, it's more, you know, a lot of
these issues that we have and this bleeds through politics, culture, religion,
all this stuff. For me, it's urban versus rural. You know,
you can go an hour outside of New York City

(01:36:10):
and you're going to come across you know, as big
a country bumpkins as you're gonna find anywhere anywhere, and
so you know, or use that terminology. So I think
it's urban versus rule. I think you go to any
rural state, you're gonna you're gonna see a lot of
you know, like and I'm not saying I'm sure there's
plenty of incessant horrible things happening in cities too. I'm
not saying that, you know, being rural creates that. But

(01:36:33):
I think a lot of these issues that we have,
it's not like state versus state. I think it's urban
versus rule. And but yeah, I mean there's, uh, there
is a common thread and you know a lot of
these uh you know, sex is involved in a lot
of these murder cases I've covered. It's just undeniable.

Speaker 2 (01:36:49):
And it does seem too like the more you're isolated
from society and you're you're in your own little kingdom
and your own little world, you know, like you make
your own rules and know everything. So that's getting more
and more extreme and crazy.

Speaker 3 (01:37:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:37:01):
Yeah, Now back to these guys though, Billy and Chad.
Now you're saying that one of the theories is that
this whole thing was over eight plants of marijuana.

Speaker 3 (01:37:11):
Yes, that was a story that circulated for years. And
here's the thing I don't I think that probably it
was over money or drugs, but it was there. They
built a lot of maths and that is obviously a
lot more valuable than marijuana. And I think that I

(01:37:31):
don't think that they I don't think Billy would have
gone to the house that night and killed Carl for
the simple reason that the mom and the two kids
were there. They would know that he left with them.
The crime is super clumsy. The murderer left the murder
weapon at the crime scene. I mean that is like pudn't.

(01:37:53):
This is stupid. I mean, you can't do stuff like that.
And Billy was a sophisticated criminal. He had all sorts
of radios in his house, all sorts of ways to
track law enforcement. I mean he hit informants. I mean,
he was a very sophisticated criminal. If he was in
the house, he's not going to leave the tire tool.
The tire tool could have DNA on it. That could
lead the police right to now. Now, this is what

(01:38:14):
I think happened. I think that Carl went down to
help Bill or Chad fix his car and heads trucks
and the truck did have mechanical problems, documented mechanical problems.
While they're down there, I think they got high on mass.
And I think that Chad had a really bad haben
when he was at parties that he would take out
of twenty two and just shoot it if people were
shooting up in the air trying to scare him. And

(01:38:36):
I think in the darkness, you know they're high mess.
It's raining really hard. They're trying to fix his car.
They get into an argument because Carl did owe them money,
and he said, hey, man, you better better get right
with my dad or else it's going to be a problem.
Because two weeks prior to the murders, Mary Green, Billy's wife,
was tending her flower garden. She heard Billy tell Chad,
you better get my stuff from Carl, and she didn't

(01:38:58):
know what the stuff was, so obviously there was a
tension between him, and I think that Chad got his
twenty two out and just shot at Carl and accidentally
shot it, and then when he panicked, he shot him again,
and then he threw his body in the river. And
then he is the one that went back to the house.
Because here's the thing for all of Billy's all the

(01:39:19):
things that he has known to be, you know, ruthless, horrible,
you know, fell in criminal, one thing that he's never
really I've never found any evidence and maybe out there
I've never known. I've never found that he was convicted
of being a pedophile. Chad was. And here's the thing,
the girl was taken. So the mostivation of the person
who was there was the girl. And so that's why

(01:39:42):
I think he did it. Now, a few days later,
I think that maybe Billy found out that Chad had her,
and he because Chad was living at his grandparent like
an old house out in the middle of nowhere, his
old grandparents house, and Billy probably did take her out
to the creak and splitters throat because there was a
story out there that Chad said he couldn't do it
and Dad told him to kill her, and he told

(01:40:03):
us Dad he couldn't do it because he was a lover,
and so Billy probably did take her out and her
body was found less than half a mile from his house.

Speaker 2 (01:40:11):
So yeah, Now Chad had prior convictions food for child molestation.

Speaker 3 (01:40:17):
Yes he had. He had previously molested a female relative
who was also the same age as eight years old.

Speaker 2 (01:40:24):
And how much time did he get for that?

Speaker 3 (01:40:27):
He got fifty six years. He would happen was yeah,
and I know, I know exactly what you're gonna ask.
Why was he already in jail for that? What happened
was that happened. The relative didn't didn't didn't tell anybody
about it, and until after the first conviction or no, no,
no no, but before the convictions the relatives came out.

(01:40:50):
After it was after the murders the relative came out.
So what happened was is when prosecutors wanted, they were
dead convinced it was Billy that did all of it.
So what they did is they offered Chad. They said, okay,
you got this pending you know, child molestation charge, and
then you got these full capital murder charges. We're going
to wrap this all into one deal thirty seven years

(01:41:10):
if you will turn on your dad and people will go, oh,
that's outrageous, you know they you know, they should have
never done that. The problem was that this case was
very circumstantial and very weak. It was a bunch. There's
no DNA, there's no forensics tying them to the crime.
It is very simply them telling police that the other
one did it and so and then the mom saying

(01:41:31):
that she overheard, and she pieced together some conversations that
she'd had with Billy and Chad, and she testified to
those conversations on the span and so he got fifty
What happened was is when he lost, you know, when
he said, hey, there's the double jeopardy and he lost.
What happened was they said, okay, we're gonna he got
immediately went to trial on the raping the relative and

(01:41:54):
got fifty six years for that. And then after that
is when he got popped on all for capital murder charge.
And you know, I took him, you know, jury two
hours hour to convict him on all four counts and
and he got life in prison, and so did Billy
at the end of it. And I actually pat right
next to Billy right after he was convicted, and he
looked at me and he goes, I did not do this,

(01:42:16):
and I'm like, yeah, but you know, you're in Randolph
County and everybody knows what a horrible person who are me? Like,
You're horrible, you know, And and in my mind I
still think he probably did kill Felicious. So he gets
what he deserves. Anyway, I just sti't think the prosecutors
quite got her. And I told the prosecutor in the
case is a good friend of mine, great guy. But

(01:42:40):
him and I ate lunch one day and I said, now, Henry,
I just I think it's a little I think you're
a little afflents. And I told one of the detectives
at the Arkansas State the least my theory on it,
and he told me flat out, he goes, I think
you're right, he goes. Motivation was a little girl, and
Billy never would have took a girl. He'd killed her
in the house, just like the rest of them.

Speaker 2 (01:42:55):
Yeah, I know what you're saying. I worked on the
defense and the Carmine Presco trial in the Columbus Prime
family in New York back in the early early eighties,
and he was convicted on a charge of loan sharking
because he waved to a guy and a diner. He
waved his hands. Oh my god, I know. But everyone said, hey, look,
we all know he's up to something.

Speaker 3 (01:43:12):
You know that.

Speaker 2 (01:43:12):
They the convicted one. Nat But but real quick, back
to this case. Now, you're saying that he had this
barrel of this little child victim in the garage of
his grandparents' house. What about the grandparents Are they walking around?
What do they know?

Speaker 3 (01:43:26):
No, they they weren't. They were dead. I think they
were either dead or just living in their old like
it was like an old homestead house. It was and
I used the term house loosely. It was basically a
dilapidated shack. But Chad and Billy, you know, Billy, they
couldn't get along. So Chad wasn't living at home, and
you know, the family has the family members get very

(01:43:48):
you know, conflicting, you know, stories on the stand, you know,
and that Knight of the Murders, you know, Billy was
alleged to said, Hey, I gotta go help Chad clean
up a mess. And when he left and Mary said
that he said that of course, and again it's like
we were talking about before, like, how do you interpret
that statement. Well, when I hear him say that, I
think that Chad told him and said, I just actually

(01:44:10):
killed Carl and his whole family, you know, except for Felicia.
And so that's when Billy left that night, and then
from that point on the next five years he's trying
to help his son cover up for it, which for
sure he was. So now the grandparents weren't there, they
didn't know. And you know, I get this question a
lot like when people hear about this day, they're like, Okay,

(01:44:31):
so that guy they're on death row, right, And I'm
like no. Because Mary Green, the mother, and the and
the and the wife, she was the key witness in
the whole thing, and her testimony. The prosecutors felt like
if she if she thought her son might die, that
she would not testify truthfully.

Speaker 2 (01:44:53):
And so.

Speaker 3 (01:44:55):
Her as truthfully. You know, she might fudge on details,
but if it was only life in prison, then she
was going. And she did tested by and it was graphic,
it was horrifying. And I'll tell you one really unique.
This is just mind blowing to me. So Chad the
day after the murders, he's covered in scratching, and his
mom asked him, she said, where have you been? And

(01:45:16):
he said, Mom, I've been running for a jungle. That's
all he would say to her. Felicia Elliott, the eight
year old girl right before she left school, she was
in the second grade. And I've got this. I've actually
got this piece of homework that she did. I've actually
got the physical copy of it. The family gave it
to me on the back of one of the sheep.
The last question that she answered that school year was
if you were if you were in a jungle, who

(01:45:37):
would you want with you? And she said my mom,
my dad, and my little brother and she misspelled the brother.
So when in the courtroom, when when Mary Green made
that statement, it sent kills down my fine because I
had that artwork or I had that homework, and that
very statement was in there.

Speaker 2 (01:45:54):
That's terrific, man. And what about Mary Green? And did
she do any time on all this?

Speaker 3 (01:45:59):
No, she was she had nothing to do with the
commission of the crime. And a lot of her for years,
hers was it was speculation in her mind. She started
putting it together. She left, she left Billy, and then
she started putting it together. And then finally she just
went to police and said, I know they did it
and so and then immediately they bring Chad in, you know,

(01:46:21):
and then he, you know, admits to it, and so
I think Billy. I think Billy has consistently denied having
anything to do with it. So once they had a
couple of witnesses, you know, she was going to testify
and even you know, it's common. I mean, she might
they might have been able to get her, you know,
obstruction of a governmental operation or something like that, for

(01:46:42):
not coming forward sooner, because I think she knew by
two thousand and one that they did it, but it
took her till Hope Free to finally confess or come
in and give give a statement.

Speaker 2 (01:46:52):
So yeah, but my question is, like, first of all,
how long was that little girl in the barrel? And
how many people knew.

Speaker 3 (01:47:01):
At the very least And this is a little bit speculative.
Chad obviously knew because he put her in there, Billy
obviously knew. There's a possibility that another brother knew. There's
I don't think there's any way. By the time the

(01:47:22):
mom found out about that part of the story, it
was years later. She didn't know that Felicia was in
the barrel. And literally she was asked the question, did
you ever ask Chad how long that little girl stayed
in that barrel? And she broke down on the stand
and just cried and cried, and she said, no, I
didn't want to know.

Speaker 2 (01:47:44):
And yeah, do we know, though, do we know how
long that little Felicia was in that barrel?

Speaker 3 (01:47:52):
The speculation is that she was kept in the barrel,
probably for two or three days, at least, for at
least that much time. I think that it's pretty I
think that we can safely establish that she was that
once they found Carl's body in the river, because the

(01:48:12):
media reports at the time, you know, the first three
or four days has happened. They were looking for Carl.
They thought Carl killed his wife, killed his son, and
took off with his daughter. And so at that point
it was I hate to use this term, but it
was it was safe to keep her alive because they
weren't looking for Billy and Chad Green. They were out.
They were out looking in other states. They thought that
they had led states, so they weren't looking anywhere close.

(01:48:34):
They were thinking they were in a hotel somewhere, and
so when they found Carl's body, then they knew it
was probably someone local who was local. And I'm sure
at that point Billy said, you got to get rid
of her.

Speaker 2 (01:48:47):
Just a man a house of horror, as a family
of horrors.

Speaker 3 (01:48:51):
You know, I'm telling you, like I said, if you
when you read that chapter, and I mean, there's some
other gory, grizzly details in there that are just I mean, yeah,
I mean when you read, after you get done reading it,
I mean, it'll hurt your soul.

Speaker 2 (01:49:06):
Yeah, but you gotta imagine even this guy, Billy and Chad,
they didn't have a chance at birth, you know what
I mean. They were born into a family of psychos
and never had a chance. Yeah, well you know that.

Speaker 3 (01:49:15):
It's funny you say that, though, because like some of
the people in their family are very accomplished. You know,
they're not a like Billy. You meet criminals, I mean
most of the time, you know, they have a particular mindset.
Billy was actually pretty intelligent. I mean, he wasn't like
if he had made different choices in life, he probably
could have been a prominent person. You know. Now, Chad

(01:49:36):
is a total I mean there's no life behind those eyes.
I've told people looking in his eyes was like looking
at the eyes of a great white shark. Would kill
and rape anything if it suited, if it pleased him,
and would say nothing of it. He has no remorse.
I mean when that statement was made in court, I
was looking right at him and did not care, didn't flint.
He's like whatever, you know, Okay, I kept this girl

(01:49:58):
in a barrel? Who cares? You know, she was there
for my pleasure and that's that. That's the kind of
guy he is.

Speaker 2 (01:50:04):
And they are they a pro eligible lice to guys.

Speaker 3 (01:50:09):
No, No, they will. They will spend the rest of
their their lives in depth there and definitely incarcerated in prison.
They'll never they will never leave.

Speaker 2 (01:50:18):
Okay, I can live with that. Now, what about you said,
there's another brother who possibly knew. What's he doing keeping
an eye on this guy?

Speaker 3 (01:50:25):
He was originally charged actually in the original when they
were first arrested, he was originally charged and then he
flipped and they found out later he Okay, there's no
doubt in my mind he knew. He knew early on.
He may have known even when Felicia was still wild.
I don't know that for a fact, but there's no

(01:50:47):
because they were the brothers and the dad were pretty
close and they ran this drug operation together, so they
knew the ins and out of all this stuff. Now,
I think it's possible that Billy didn't know for a
couple of days that Felicia was in the barrel. And
the reason is is I think he brought that Chad
probably called his dad and said, hey, I killed the family.
And then you know, you know, in the days after that,

(01:51:08):
there weren't a lot of details coming out, you know,
and so maybe there was some confusion. Maybe Billy didn't
realize that Felicia hadn't been murdered at the house. I mean,
it's entirely possible, because you know what happened in these investigations,
they immediately shut them down. They don't let any information out,
you know. So and then but then when they found
Carl in the river, everybody knew about that, so then
it gets out. And then and then Billy's like, okay, Chad,

(01:51:30):
where's flee Chad. Oh, I've got her in the barrel
off the garage. Okay, well, we gotta get rid of
her now. And and it's and again, this is a
heartbreaking detail. But and I go through this in the
book and I give a lot more detail, but it's
it's alleged that she begged for her life right before
he slipper throat too.

Speaker 2 (01:51:50):
What a horror story, man, we got here, George Jared
give us two hours of his time. Thank you so
much for George. We've got the witches in West Memphis,
the West Memphis three. I think it's called another false
confession and pull us up here, and then the story
is just telling of us just now is the Creekside Bones.

(01:52:10):
Reality is more horrifying than fiction. That's a that's an
ept title, man uh. And you can find both of
these books on Amazon and also too, they'll be in
the description of the show, and also too, we'll have
in the Opperman Report bookstore. George, thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (01:52:25):
Man.

Speaker 2 (01:52:25):
Do you have anything you want to leave us with?

Speaker 3 (01:52:28):
No, Ed, I really enjoyed it, and I'd love to
talk to you again. I've got other juicy little nuggets
I can always throw at you.

Speaker 2 (01:52:36):
If it's a pleasant story, you welcome back.

Speaker 3 (01:52:42):
I got the Pleasure one too.

Speaker 2 (01:52:43):
Otherwise I'm avoiding you, man, Okay, after this one, my god, I.

Speaker 3 (01:52:47):
Got some horrible ones.

Speaker 2 (01:52:49):
There's one murder.

Speaker 3 (01:52:50):
There's a one murder case in that Creek Side Bone
book I didn't even talk about. And it involves the
rape and a horrible, horrifying thing. And I actually knew
the victim. Okay, I wife a teacher, and there was
one or two so you can read that chapter. It's
a got wrenching, heartbreaking story. I won beat reporter of
the year, and only for one reason is because I
actually knew her family as they would tell me, you know,

(01:53:12):
personal intimate detail. And but people can read about it
on there. Her name is Sidney Randall. Beautiful girl. Horrible
thing that happened to her. So but yeah, yeah, I've
got a few bad ones, but I've got some good
ones too, Ed.

Speaker 2 (01:53:24):
I promise, Yeah, let me recover from this one. And
then yeah, if you ever have anything you want to promote,
you get back to me. We'll put you right on here.
Great guests, thank you so much, Ed, Thank you, y'all.

Speaker 3 (01:53:34):
Have a good day.

Speaker 2 (01:53:34):
Hey, good night. George. Okay, then we had George Jared Okay,
the Creekside Bones. Reality is more horrifying than fiction. Is
the one book the woman who were just talking about,
this perfect story about this little girl of Felicia, a
little eight year old girl, my god. And then the
witches in West Memphis, the West Memphis three, another false confession.
We disagree about that. I did a whole bunch of

(01:53:56):
shits fear to the West Memphis Three. I've done like
ten fifteen shows by now. You can find in the
Operaman Report YouTube channel Di's some shows in the member section,
the last interview you've ever done with the Dale Grip.
As you can find in the member section, a lot
of great Oh we're done, hey, thank you so much.
Good night American Freedom Radio. Thank you so much. Thank

(01:54:16):
any for By the way, we're a new time slot
here in American Freedom Radio, so you can sleep late
and then catch us on a on a Thursday afternoon.
Thank you so much. But a lot of great content
in our member second at Oppermanreport dot com. And I'm
offering you a nice, big fat discount right now, thirteen

(01:54:42):
months for sixty bucks. Okay. And we're doing that because
it's the eleventh of the month and all the bills
start coming in, the Spreaker bill and the Voss cast
bill for a week radio, and the Skype bill, and
I got you know, I'm getting a phone call from
the Internet company and they're about shut the it off.
So now we need the funds to cover the show.

(01:55:04):
You know, like people complain, you know this cost to
run the show, But it costs, I gotta tell you
so to keep the shows on the air, live free.
What I asked you to do is support the Member section.
Become a member. I'll give you a discount and keep
the show free on the air, you know, and all
the stations that carry our show. So you go to

(01:55:25):
Oppermanreport dot com you can become a member, or you
can contact me directly at Opperman Report at gmail dot
com and I'll give you a discount. Like I said,
we have a show coming up. I'm taping tomorrow with
one aed Broadrick who was raped by Bill Clinton. More
and more people should just on Morning Joe the other day,
even Morning Joe Scarborough said that he believes that story,

(01:55:47):
and I don't think anybody has any kind of questions
about her story at this time. She just came out
with a new book called You Should Put Ice on
That the story of one day a broad who was
raped by Bill Clinton. And she's gonna be on the
same night as she's on our show, She'll be on
Sean Hannity's show. So we're expecting a lot of traffic

(01:56:11):
from this show coming up. And also in the same
show with one Nita Broderick, we have Charles Ortel. I've
already taped with him. And Charles Ortel is a former hedge,
fun kind of guy, you know, money guy, and he's
been doing research and investigating the Clinton Foundation for many,
many years now and goes into that. As you know,

(01:56:34):
Jeff Sessions, the Attorney General, just reopened the investigation into
the Clinton Foundation. If you listen to Charles Hotel, I've
done a couple of shows with them. Okay, we have
one in the and the archives. You can look up.
Just google Opperaman Report, Charles Ortel, o rt E L
and you'll hear a two hour show I did with
Charles Hotel about the Clinton Foundation, what the Clintons have

(01:56:57):
done in Haiti where they control the i h r C.
Where all the money donated into Haiti to hurricane relief
in Haiti all flows through Bill Clinton who runs that
and and and we talked about the company that was

(01:57:18):
supposed to be building tiny houses in Haiti and how
all that money was stolen. There's no doubt about this
and how they get away with it. And I'm you know, listen,
I'm a leftist. I'm all way far to the left,
you know, I'm not I'm not a a Republican, I'm
not a Democrat. I'm way far to the left of
Hillary Bill Clinton. And but when when you look at

(01:57:41):
the kind of people who would steal money from earthquake victims,
from Haitian earthquake victims, because I've actually had friends from
my church who went down to Haiti as part of
that hurricane relief, and and I've gone back as missionaries
year after year after year, and and nothing's changed. When
when you leave from the airport into town, the sides

(01:58:03):
of the road are housed by people just begging for money.
People coming from the airport have to have some money
and things to give them, and they just stand there
and hope that someone will have charity on them, give charity.
This is what's going on in Haiti. And when you
look at all the hundreds and millions of dollars that
have been donated to relief in Haiti, and it all

(01:58:25):
got stolen. By the way. There's a story that just
came out in Las Vegas Reviewed Journal just last night.
That's this Vegas Strong Fund that's run by Jan Jones,
who's the chairman of the Vegas Strong Fund, announced that
they're not going to be cutting any more checks to
victims of the shooting here at the Man Bay on

(01:58:45):
October first, and the money is going to go They
have diverted somewhere, so it's not going to go to
the victims. As a matter of fact, they've only given
fourteen thousand dollars out of all the money raised, they've
only given up fourteen thousand dollars to twelve actions victims
of the shooting. Okay, so what can you say? You know,

(01:59:09):
it leaves one speechless when you see what happens with
these charities and these funds like the Clinton Foundation and
these Vegas Victims funds. Okay, that all this money gets
converted to people's personal views and it never gets to
the victims. And the further away it gets, I believe
the worst it is when you're talking about tsunamis and

(01:59:31):
earthquakes over there in India and all these different countries.
That money never sees gets to the victims. Hey, because
I've done some shows too about what went on in
Stanton Island with Hurricane Sandy. Anyway, guys, the show is over.
Thank you so much. Check us out. We need a
Broadbrook and Charles Hotel coming up the member section. I'll
give you a great deal. Contact me at Opperman Report

(01:59:51):
at gmail dot com. If you want to advertise on
the show again, email me and I'll look you up
with a great deal. And you'll have your

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