August 29, 2025 • 59 mins
On April 20, 1999, two students walked into Columbine High School and changed this country forever. They murdered thirteen people - including 12 students and a teacher - and wounded twenty-one others. Ten of the victims who lost their lives were in the library. So was Heidi. Heidi was a sophomore with sophomore problems. She liked to spend her lunch in the library. When she heard a commotion outside, she brushed it off. It was senior prank season. Even after a teacher ran into the library yelling about a kid getting shot and telling everyone to get under a table, she still couldn’t comprehend what was happening.From her vantage point, she could see the shooters enter the library. It was almost cinematic. It was dark and smoky, and she could see shells falling to the floor. She heard them talk about the bombs they were planning to detonate, and heard them telling everyone that they didn’t need to worry because they’d all be dead soon. Too many did die, but Heidi was not one of them. This is her story.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
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(01:08):
Another exclusive. Guys, never done an interview in since twenty nineteen.
When you put up that content otherwise you find me
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there one hour every Friday night apm Eastern time. This
two hours of brand new podcast content and then as
well play repeats every night of the week. We have
today Heidi Johnson, and she's a survivor of the Columbine shooting, Okay,
(01:35):
and you can find her at Healingwaters dot org and
on Facebook at hl Cortes with a Z. Miss Heidi Johnson.
Are you there?
Speaker 2 (01:45):
I am great to be here, Ed, thank you for
having me.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Yeah, thank you so much. Hey, before we get into
Healingwaters dot org and the whole Columbine shooting which you survived. Yeah,
tell us about yourself. Who is Heidi Johnson?
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Who is high Ay Johnson? What a question? And where
to start with that?
Speaker 3 (02:05):
I am a global development practitioner. I have the amazing
opportunity to work for an organization that I absolutely love,
which has.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Working in this work, working.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
In humanitarian development work, I've been able to travel the
world and go to places that I feel like very
few people get to go to have been exposed to
cultures and have been able to see sites that I
feel like the average person just will never see. So
I feel very fortunate and blessed, but really am passionate
(02:39):
about using whatever power that I have, whatever I've been given,
you know, even as a survivors somebody who made it
that day on April twentieth, to use that power that
I have, the life that I have to make the
world a better place. So I look for opportunities to
(02:59):
do that is much as I possibly can.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Well, well, explain what this is. You're talking about Healing
Waters dot org. Healing Water is international, and what exactly
is that?
Speaker 3 (03:09):
Yeah, so we are an organization that works in providing
safe water solutions.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
So I don't know if many people are aware that
two billion.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
People don't have access to safe water around the world,
and that produces great levels of suffering. At any point
in time, half of the hospital beds around by somebody
who has a water or illness. So, I mean you
think about just the outflows of not having safe water,
you drink unsafe water, the diseases that that can cause,
(03:42):
What that means for productivity, what that means for health.
And so we're providing abundance safe water solutions predominantly.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
In Latin America and Haiti in very.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
Rural and remote areas where people are truly suffering because
they don't have access to water, and we like to
provide water.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
And as we say.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
In abundance, so a lot of solutions will provide enough
water for drinking, which is wonderful and it's a great start,
but it's only a start.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
And so we like to.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
Make sure that people have water for every need. And
we think about how many uses we have water for
here in the West and how often we use it,
and we don't even think twice about it. I mean,
we are so incredibly wasteful with water. I was just
at a water park with my son and just thinking
about how much water is at this at this water
(04:35):
park and what people around the world would give to
have access to something like them. So we provide solutions
that are going to help people have water for bathing,
for cooking, for cleaning, for laundry, for everything that they
possibly need, which is going to help produce the best
outroads out of poverty. So love the work that I
(04:56):
do and being able to be a part of something
that I think is truly transformative in our world.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
You know, that's so true, and you hear these stories.
It's usually the woman of the family, the wife or
the mother of the family that has to be all
day long in one direction and bring back a pot
of water, sometimes on their head. They do it every
day since they're a baby, just just for the family's
daily water. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
Yeah, and that's I mean, that prohibits them from being
able to do to anything any other things.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
That's the whole day.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
And you think about it, if they had if they
had the time, and they had the ability, and they
didn't have to do that, what could they produce, what
could they invent, what could they pursue if that wasn't.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
A barrier anymore? So yeah, I completely agree.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Yeah yeah. So so practically, as a practical matter, what
exactly does Healing Water International do? How does they make
this possible?
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Yeah? So we work with partners on the ground.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
We have teams in Mexico, Haiti, and Guatemala. People that
are from those countries know how to navigate those countries
and those systems build partnerships. We've worked with local municipalities
and we build large scale typically large scale water infrastructure.
So this is using usually groundwater and purifying it so
(06:22):
that it is up to what we say EPA standards.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
It gets rid of difficult contaminants.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
We were just working in a community where the mining
industry dumped a lot of very harmful contaminants in the
river source, and so there were things that could not
just be purified through traditional easy means, and so we
did some really comprehensive engineering and I say we, I
(06:49):
mean our engineering team, but using technologies that are not
i would say really seen in the developing world quite
as much. And so that community just received safe water.
We celebrated and inaugurated that system actually this past week.
And so it's it's building like more large scale water
(07:13):
infrastructure projects, so not so much wells or you know,
household filtration mechanisms. It's doing things that would maybe be
similar to solutions we use.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Here in the US.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Now, the way you and I met was through h
You're a survivor of the Columbine shooting. So tell us
about that. You had to be really young, you had
to be like a freshman.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Yeah, I was a sophomore. I was, and I'm a
young I was a young sophomore. So I was fifteen
at the time, so yeah, I was. I went to Columbine.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
I went to private school all the way through age
grade and really wanted to go to my neighborhood public school,
which was Columbine. A lot of my friends went there,
and so I enrolled freshman year and then was there,
you know, through my sophomore year. So it was towards
(08:08):
the end of the school year. And around that time
it was typical for the seniors to do pranks, I think,
and we had I don't know if it was a
normal high school experience or not, but the seniors could
pull some really.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Amazing pranks.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
I think at one point they had dumped crickets all
the way down the stairs of.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
The school and so they just did some crazy things.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
So anyways, I was in the library.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
I was getting some homework done.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
On April twentieth, nineteen ninety nine, was at a table
there looking out at the mountains. I'm here in Colorado
and just plugging away. I was supposed to be cheerleading
tryouts that evening, and so I was really focused on getting.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Getting my homework done. I had, like I was very
focused on, you know, completing my to do list, and.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
I would say a few minutes into the library period,
I began to hear these loud bangs going off that
were starting to almost shake the library and had no
idea what it was. Was really honestly not too bothered
by it. Thought that maybe it was construction. I thought
(09:29):
that maybe, as I had mentioned, the seniors were throwing
a prank. Like I was like, oh, there's something that's
just happening, you know, and was not really worried at all.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
And so.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
I continued to do my homework and bangs continued, and
started maybe getting a little bit concerned, started thinking, what
is this, you know, this feels a little bit off,
and so U basically what happened at that point is
(10:03):
a pipe bomb, which I didn't know.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
I mean, I know now, but a pipe bomb.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
Went off right outside of the library, and the library
began to fill with smoke. And this all happened so
fast and so slow at the same time. But a
teacher came running into the room and she seemed just
incredibly frantic. I remember, you know, her just looking very distraught,
and she was telling us everybody, a kid has been shot,
(10:30):
a kid has been shot, a kid has been shot.
And she was just saying that over and over again,
and she was like, get under your tables, get under
your tables now. And I got under my table, still
like so skeptical about what was happenings, still not entirely
sure about, like just almost in a state of disbelief.
(10:52):
She goes behind the library desk at the front and
I hear her get on the phone with nine on
one one and she making calls for them and basically
saying what she was telling us that a kid has
been shot. She's a Calmulbine High school. You know they
need emergency right now, police right now. And so she
(11:13):
continues to yell at us because some of the kids
weren't listening, like kids, get under your tables, get under
your tables. So I got under my table, or at
some point in time, got under my table, and I
just remember it was just me there and there was,
you know, a library table with about six chairs surrounding it,
and I pulled each of those chairs as close to
my body as I possibly could and just kind of
(11:36):
couched over into like a little ball. The library was
filling with smoke more smoke at this time, and the
fire alarm started going off. The lights went off, and
it was just what felt like chaos. I could see
(11:56):
the entrance and the exit to the library from my table,
and I looked over to the entrance and I see
these two kind of shadowy figures enter the library, and
I could see make out from what I could see
that they were holding.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Guns, that one of them had.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Artillery strapped to his shoulder, that they're wearing trench coats.
And they said to us, everybody, get ready to die,
is the first thing that came out of their mind
or their mouth.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
And they proceeded to just start shooting.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
And there were three sections to the library. I was
in the third section even and they were separated by books,
so I was in the third section, but I could
still see a lot of what was happening because of
where my table was physicianed, and so at first I
heard a lot of shots and screens, and then it
progressively got closer and closer to me, and there.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Were computer copies directly in front of me.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
One of the first things that I saw them do,
as the shadows continue to move closer and closer to
where the shooters did, is they went and put their
gun directly under the computer cuby and pulled the trigger,
and I remember the.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Kid that was there basically just slump over.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
They walked around my table to where there was a
lot of other students, and I was seeing them point
there their gun under the tables and pull.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
The trigger, and I could hear.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
I could hear students who had been shot, and you
know what they were saying, and you know, they were
saying things like, I can't believe you just shot him,
stuff like that. The shooters continued to talk to us
while we were under our table, saying things like, hey,
(13:53):
if you get up from under your table, we won't
kill you. They were saying many many other horrific things
that I would never want to repeat, using racial slurs,
making fun of particularly jocks, people who were wearing white hats.
(14:15):
And they kept saying so at that time in high school,
it meant that you were a jock.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
And so.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
You know the backstory of the shooters at Columbine is
that they were heavily bullied by the jocks and so
when they came into the library, they were.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
They were really targeting.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
Everybody and wanted to kill as many people as they
possibly could.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
But they did call out people with white.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
Hats uh that day, And so that's one of the
things I remember hearing quite a bit.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Let me ask a question real quick. Now, at this
time when this happened, now, we weren't experiencing these shootings
like we are now all the time, Like kids in
high school today are used to this kind of thing happening. Yes,
What was it though about you that you knew to
go there and make like a little barricade with the
chairs and stuff like? What made you have that presence
of mind to to do that kind of thing?
Speaker 2 (15:23):
I mean, I think I was just listening to the
teacher that.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
Came in and was warning us that a kid had
been shot, and she had told us to get under
our tables. And I mean that, I would say, was
me just kind of following what was being told to me?
Speaker 1 (15:41):
And you know the kids doing that too? Is everyone?
Speaker 3 (15:45):
Yeah, everybody got under their tables for the most part,
and kids got under their computer cubbies. Everybody was kind
of just sheltering in place basically. I mean, I think
that the teacher was just trying to tell us something
that would help cover us or protect us at some level.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Because teachers weren't prepared for the teachers.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
Yes, and there was no no frame of reference. No,
we didn't do active shooter drills or that that. Like
you said that, this wasn't. Columbine was one of the
first major mass shootings that happened in our country, and
so this was something that I know just shocked everybody.
(16:27):
And so basically, the shooters after they had shot really
around my section. At one point in time, I could
see their boots through the the you know, slits of
my table as they were walking by, and I could
see their shotgun shells kind of rolling on the ground
(16:48):
as they were firing their weapon. They are continuing to
talk to us, They're continuing to warn us and basically say,
don't worry, You're all going to be dead soon. And so,
you know, I honestly, in that moment, was bracing.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Today.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
I had that experience which I think is common, where
I just was almost my body, my mind was preparing
itself for its last or last moments on earth, and
I was almost essentially saying goodbye to the life that
(17:27):
I had, saying goodbye to my you know, family, my dog,
my friends, and just getting ready for it to be
my last day. They came very, very close to my
table and looked under and I at one point made
eye contact with one of the shooters. He had in
(17:50):
the chaos of everything, shot his nose or hurt his nose,
and so his face was bloody and his eyes were
almost like there was nobody there looking at.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
This person did not look like a person.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
It looked more like a zombie, somebody who had just
completely left.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
And for whatever reason, he didn't shoot me.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
I I don't know what the cause of that was.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
But soon after that they left the library.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
I found out later that they had large pro paane
tank bombs that were underneath us in the cafeteria. So
the library was directly above the cafeteria, and they put
propane tank bombs down in the cafeteria that had not detonated.
If they had, it would have killed all of us.
But we found out from a you know, a bomb
(18:51):
expert later that they had a few wires crossed and
so fortunately those didn't go off. But what they did
was go check on them and try shooting them to detonate. Well,
we took that as a moment of time after and
I could see them leave, as I mentioned, being able
to see the exit to get up I remember getting
(19:15):
up and I saw some of my fellow students, some
who had been shot, people that just looked like.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
They were in total shock.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
And I made eye contact with one of my friends,
still friends with him to this day, and we both
kind of said, like, should we get out of here?
And we went through an emergency exit where we were
greeted by cops to come outside of the school. So
from there we were able to be taken to a
(19:45):
secure location where we basically stayed until finally our parents
were able to come and get us.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
So even the cops weren't ready for this kind of thing.
They didn't know how to handle.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Us, not at all, you know.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
And when I exited the school through the emergency exit,
the cops had their guns drawn at us, so they
had their guns pointed at us, not knowing what was
happening either, and so we kind of ran to them.
I think they could easily tell that we were not,
(20:25):
you know, the shooters, and they motioned for us to
come back behind the cop car. It was just two
of them, two cops, that's it, pointing their guns at
the school and tons of kids who were in this
library situation behind their cop car.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Several of them wounded, and I remember the cops just saying,
you know, take care of the wounded.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
And so we were taking our socks off and making turniquits.
We were trying to stop the bleeding of students. I
heard students asking ones that had been shot, you know,
like trying to just keep them calm, asking them like,
you know, how was your sociology test today? Tell me
about that.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
So, trying our.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
Best as teenagers, almost ending for ourselves at that point
in time. Eventually the cops told us to get into
their cop car. They took care, of course, the wounded
first and got them out, but eventually they came back
and got us, and they took us to a cold sack.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
So that was kind of how we got to a
safer space.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
You mentioned earlier, you're hiding in the copy there right
and you could see their trench coats and their boots.
Now did you recognize these guys? And you know from
school right away and say, hey, those those two guys
Harrison Claibol, did you know them?
Speaker 3 (21:55):
So they had a reputation. Columbine's a big school. I
mean there was you know, a few thousand students there,
and I was a sophomore.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
They were seniors, and.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
So I had heard of them through friends, that there
was a group called the trench Coat Mafia and that
they were, you know, highly bullied and different and you know, kind.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Of ostracized in a lot of ways.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
But I did not have any personal connections to them
at all, or any conversations to them at all.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Just didn't know them.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
So you didn't know their names at all.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
I didn't know.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
But you had seen other people walking around with trench
coats and boots.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
Yeah, yes, And I mean again, it was such a
big school and I didn't register it. I they had
a reputation, but it wasn't something that I had taken
note of or ever thought was going to be threatening
to me in any way.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
You know, never had that sense.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
Like I went to school, they're generally feeling pretty safe
and never would have imagined this happening.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
So so now after you're out there with the cops
and stuff like that, were you ever questioned by the police,
you were an eyewitnessed everything that went on.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
At that point. No, I mean the cops were just
in full chaos mode, it was. And so when we
get to the cold a sack, so many people are wounded.
Neighbors are coming out, they're bringing towels, you know, trying
to help the situation. We have new crews pulling into
(23:39):
the cold a sack interviewing us. You know, we're all
still in absolute shock, and so our ability to articulate
what had happened was very limited. And you know, we
see it was almost like a trifle of More and
more people continue to come to the location over time.
(24:01):
I remember seeing a teacher and she came up and
gave me a hug and was like, Hidie, I'm so
glad you're safe. We at one point in time, got
a lot of other students together and we formed like
a prayer circle and we started, you know, praying for
our school and for the other students and people that
we weren't sure if they were okay. There was just
(24:23):
so many questions at that point in time about everyone
I was. Eventually I was welcomed into the home because
everything's barricaded, so we can't leave this cul de sac.
I was welcomed into one of the homes of a
friend of mine, and you know, they allowed me to
call my parents, and because my parents didn't even know,
(24:46):
like we didn't have cell phones back then.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
That's how long ago this was.
Speaker 4 (24:50):
As I couldn't even get a whole It's not like
I could call my mom and be like, hey, I'm okay.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
So I called my mom.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
She was at work, and she is like, Heidi, are
you okay? And I'm like yes, Mom.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
She's like, did you see people die? And I said yes, mom.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
You imagine I terrified your mom was not here from
you because not you're a mom, right. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Yeah. When she told me, she's like, your dad's gonna
come get you.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
And my dad it took him until like five pm
that night to finally reach me because of all the
barricades and red tape and.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Everything.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
I was going to say too, because you mentioned that
you because made a prayer circle. So when you were
down there in that cubby by yourself, though, were you
you must have been prying, right, I was.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
I mean, you're just like, I mean, you're in a
state of I mean one so much shock and disbelief.
And it's weird when I mean, and I feel like
it's an experience that not a lot of other people
go through, But when you are preparing your self to die,
it's like you are at once very terrified and scared,
(26:07):
and I'm like, I am not ready to die. I'm
not I have so many more things that i want
to do with my life, Like I'm not ready to
leave this earth. But at the same time, you have
like this weird sense of calm and peace, and I
felt that in that moment, and prayer helped me in
that moment to really just kind of stay centered and
(26:31):
not lose the plot and stay very present minded. I
was interviewed by the police, you know, several days after
the shooting happened, and they told me that my account
of the situation was one of the most cohesive ones
that they had, and I think I was. I attribute
(26:55):
it to me just being able to remain calm in
that situation is best so that I could.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
So when you said that you made eye contact with
one of the shooters, do you know now which one
it was Dylan or it was Er It was Eric Harris?
Speaker 3 (27:12):
It was Eric, Yeah, And as I mentioned, he just
looked like he wasn't even there, like just completely like
almost when someone has that glazed over look, that's what
he had. And it was almost like staring at somebody
who was not human.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
I did why he spared you and can you imagine
you must have thought about this a lot.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
I mean, there's a piece in me that and it's
hard because you know, you can kind of go through
a lot of survivor's guilt. And I have definitely worn
the cloak and prep because as I survive, I now
have to do something meaningful and great with my life
(28:04):
because I was spared for a reason.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
And I feel like in some ways that in.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
Looking back and processing and it now being over twenty
years since this happened, is that that created a lot
of pressure on me that you was resulting from a
situation that I did not ask for. I do feel
like I have perspectives on life and on suffering and
(28:33):
an empathy I think for what maybe others, especially in
other parts of the world, who don't have access to
the same level of resources that we have here. I
like being driven more by my empathy and compassion resulting
from experiencing a traumatic event versus me feeling like I
(28:59):
have to pay a debt of some kind.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
I feel like that.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
Makes my work much more genuine and authentic and.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Heart focused, versus me trying to.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
Get out of some sort of guilt that you know,
I survived, So now I have to do something good
and wonderful and meaningful with my life, which I definitely
felt that way for a very long time. Is that, oh, Heidi,
you made it. You shouldn't have, I mean.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Why all?
Speaker 3 (29:33):
And the answer is is, I don't know why I survived.
I don't There's no reason I should have. Honestly, my
section was the deadliest section of the library. It was
where most of the people died, everyone around me. You know,
I went back to the library when it was still
a crying scene to just see where I was kind
(29:56):
of solidify some things in my memory, be able to
you know, walk out empowered as not a victim. And
when I went into the library and I saw the
crime scene.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
I mean it was My table was virtually.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
Untouched and everything surrounding it. The bookcases right next to
me had bullet holes all in them.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
The computer cubbies.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
In front of me were ripped open by bullets, the
other tables, I mean, blood stains everywhere. I should not
have survived. I don't know how and why I did.
And I the best that I can do is just
go on and live life, and live life, as I mentioned,
(30:48):
just full of compassion and empathy and with an understanding
of what survival feels like and use that as a
means to hopefully alleviate some level of suffering in the world.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
Well, it's an extreme trauma to go through something like
that right in your death experience. Did you have some
kind of therapy like at that period of time?
Speaker 3 (31:10):
So I feel like we've grown so much as a
society as it relates to mental health, and I'm so
thankful for that. It was not, It was not at
the forefront when I had went through this, and I
ruthfully white knuckled it for over ten years. Wow. So I.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
I mean I would have panic attacks and would try
to just work through them. I would see things that
would remind me of the shooters and instantly go into.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
A state of panic. I could not be around fireworks
for a very long time.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
I remember being at disney World and my dad had
to pull me into the candy store and lock eyes
with me because fireworks were going off and I was
in a tailspin.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
So, yeah, therapy was not something that I went through.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
I post Columbine, I traveled and I spoke, and I
think that there was a level of almost toxicity in
my survivor hood in that Heidi survived for a reason,
God spared her for a reason.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
Was a lot of the messaging that came out of that.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
And you know, here she is having gone through a
traumatic event and not needing you know, therapy, not needing medication.
And meanwhile I definitely needed all of those things.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
And so.
Speaker 3 (32:49):
When I hit age twenty five, I, after white.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
Knuckling it for ten years.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
I basically had what I would say was a mental
break and I just could not anymore. I definitely did
not want to leave this orth. I wanted to continue living,
but the trauma of what I went through was could
I could not escape it anymore? It was just constant
(33:16):
in my face and constant where I was really unable to,
I would say, function in a healthy way. And so
I really dug in at that moment in time to
pursuing healing for myself.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
And now you were saying that when you were during
that period of time when you were doing those speaking engagements,
was that through the church you were doing church speaking. Yeah,
I went with it myself. Yeah, I had a little
miracle happened. Oh I was to go to prison for
fifteen years. I cannot say that I got out of
that when I got saved and when we work for
(33:52):
a tent ministry. I actually lived in travel with a
tent ministry for many years. But I've seen that, Oh yes,
I know that that circuit they get you, and it's it's.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
It's a circuit.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
Well and it's I mean, there's I mean, I understand why.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
I mean they mean, well, they're well meaning. They mean well,
they're well meaning people, and it is a miracle. You
know you can see that. Yes, but then they start
to hold you to a high stand for me, Yeah,
I agree with that. Yeah, well, now what about though
you had there were so many people that went through
(34:30):
the same thing as you. You had friends at that school.
So now did you form like a little group with
them and go back and revisit the events?
Speaker 2 (34:39):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (34:40):
So, uh there's a few people that I you know,
still am in contact with to this day. We spoke
together and have a lot of shared experiences. I think
being able to share trauma with people is so helpful.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
There's going through something that.
Speaker 3 (35:05):
Is that traumatic where most of society won't know what
that's like or won't know you know, how that feels
and how to recover from that.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
To be able to have allies and people that.
Speaker 3 (35:19):
Have been there is definitely a gift and I feel
bonded to these people for life. You know, we'll go
periods of time where we won't see each other for
a while, but I think just being able to have
(35:40):
people that get it, because not a lot of people
will and you don't feel so alone because it can
be very trauma, particularly a very acute violent trauma, can
make you feel alone. It can make you feel like
am I the crazy one? I mean, there were things
that were rolling through my head post Columbine that I'm like.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
What what is that?
Speaker 3 (36:03):
And it was all just related to what I had
seen in my brain trying to make sense of it,
and so being able to hear that other people had
seen or similar experiences is very affirming and validating and
makes you feel like you're not the crazy one in
the situation.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
You know, when we booked this interview, I was on
the impression that you were like a gun control spokesperson
or something like that. I don't know why, you know,
I'm busy. So now what is your position?
Speaker 3 (36:36):
Now?
Speaker 1 (36:36):
What do you think? This is a I want to phenomenon,
this This situation of kids going to school. What do
you what You've been living this for a long time,
You've been dwelling on the situation, You've had some ideas.
What do you think is the way that's out of
this craziness?
Speaker 2 (36:55):
I mean, and I'm not going to sit here and claim.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
I have You're not going to solve but forrest, come on,
I brought you on the show.
Speaker 3 (37:05):
Yeah, you're like, this is the whole reason you were invited,
and you're going to give us all the answers the
gun violence in the United States. And I mean, I
think hot from a high level is that we we
have not been willing to grapple with this issue the
way that it needs to be done and the causality
(37:26):
behind it as a country, and the fact that this
has become and I think I mentioned earlier on that,
you know, when Columbine happened, it shocked everybody. Everyone was
asking how on earth could this happen? And I think
many were saying, never again are we going to allow
this to happen in our schools where children are and
(37:50):
and children feel unsafe going to school. Never again are
we going to let that happen? And it did happen,
and it happened again and again and again and again,
so much so that it is now part of our
regular conscious as a country, that this is something that
if it happens, it's no longer a front page story.
(38:13):
It's something that maybe is noted, you know, in a
news report. And we have become almost callous to the
fact that this is a regular thing. Uh. I hate
that my son who is going into middle school has
to go through active shooter drills. I hate that that
(38:35):
has to be something that they have to consider and
think about. And I just feel like we have not
done what we need to do as a country to
figure out why this happens here, which we have peer
countries that I could say, we could point to very
you know, similar things too that it doesn't happen in,
(38:59):
So why does it happen here? And you know, I
do think that there is a level of our love
affair with guns that creates a recipe sometimes for these
things to happen.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
But I think that it's it's.
Speaker 3 (39:19):
Very nuanced and deep, and I'm not going to be
somebody that's going to say that it needs to be
a black and white type of solution, And but I
do think that we really, we really need to take
a hard look as to why this is happening, and
I just don't feel like we have.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
I think what we have gotten to.
Speaker 3 (39:40):
Instead is almost just this is the status quo and
have settled into this being a part of what looks
like to live in America now, and almost to the
point where we have worked to manage to it rather
than prevent it it by doing you know, active shooter drills,
(40:04):
by trying to fortify schools. You know, we're trying to
manage it, manage the problem, make sure that we can
maybe reduce casualties when they happen, which I.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
Think has happened.
Speaker 3 (40:20):
Mass shootings are are not maybe as you know, disastrous
as they have been, but I would love to see
us just eliminate the cause. And that's something I think
that there hasn't been an appetite really to do at
a high level.
Speaker 5 (40:42):
And it's become like a political football too, you know,
like yeah, and we just go right back to the
same talking points every single time, and well like hypnotize
in this country, you know, and we have this gun fetish,
like you said that it's a fetish with people with
their guns.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
Yeah, what a You hear these theories about arming the
teachers or bringing cops onto the school. I think that's
a recipe for.
Speaker 3 (41:08):
Well, it's it's like, let's throw more guns at the
gun problem. You know, what this gun problem needs is
some more guns. Like that's it.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
I said, bring the cop on the school. The first
one is gonna be shot as a kid, you know,
and that's some gun shooting.
Speaker 3 (41:27):
God yeah, no I I.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
I again just feel like we need to figure out
the cause behind this, like why is it here?
Speaker 3 (41:38):
You know, We've seen other peer countries like New Zealand
Australia have mass shootings, work to figure it out and
then not have them again at the level that we
do here where it is a constant, regular thing, And
I just feel like we need to figure this out.
We really need to figure this out. And unfortunately it's
(42:01):
like we all say, you know, when the next big
one happens, maybe something will change, And we've said that
and said that, and said that and said that, and
I'm almost of the belief that it's going to just
be incremental change and us not giving up on the
problem and continuing to push forward and really researching what
(42:22):
good policy looks like, you know, not knee jerk, like,
let's just try and figure this out with a band
aid type solution.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
But what is really going to get at the problem.
Speaker 3 (42:36):
And so I have done some advocacy work for bipartisan
gun legislation really working more so to just get guns
out of the hands of people who present a violent
threat to themselves.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Or to others.
Speaker 3 (42:50):
I mean, we talk about mass shootings being a major issue,
but we have to look at, you know, the level
of gun suicides that happen or chilled and who get
a hold of a firearm and end up.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
Killing themselves or others. Uh, there's so much to.
Speaker 3 (43:07):
This problem that's just beyond the horrificness of a mass
shooting that I feel like, you know, domestic violence being
another one, and how many women die at the hand
of you know, their their partner on a regular basis.
And so it's a big problem and I think it's
(43:27):
something that needs a lot a lot of effort.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
And what about when you when you take your kids
to school, you know, you must have a you know,
an eye for you know, weaknesses, And what do you
do they come and consult with you, the say, you know, hey, HII,
you know how do we prevent this over I haven't.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
I haven't done that in a while. I did that
a little bit whereas a part.
Speaker 3 (43:51):
Of a few you know, think tanks on how to
do things, you know, and have I worked at a
school for a period.
Speaker 2 (44:00):
Of time where there was a.
Speaker 3 (44:02):
Shooting that took place at a high school very close
to where we were at, and we had to go
on full on lockdown and I had to man the
door of a particular interests exit just to make sure
that nobody could get in or out. And so, I mean,
it's it's something that is just the reality of our
schools nowadays. And I know that there are protocols that
(44:27):
you know, when my son is at school that they
have to follow, and you know, they're very strict security situations,
which I think can bring a level of comfort.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
But again, I think that it's all just managing.
Speaker 3 (44:42):
This situation that we have created versus really trying to
completely alleviate it.
Speaker 1 (44:49):
No, I've done I've done many many shows on Columbine,
you know, and mostly the conspiracy theory guys come on
the show. You know, Now, what do you make of that?
Speaker 3 (44:57):
Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (44:58):
I've done all was from way back, uh, and some
of them. Looking back, I kind of have some suspicions
about the guests more than I had. But now, what
about yourself? Because you hear these stories with that there
were other shooters there, there were people on the roof
that a lot of these trenchical mafia guys, their parents
were in the local law enforcement FBI, sheriff's department, all
(45:19):
kind of stuff. What do you make of alets have
you been living it?
Speaker 3 (45:24):
Yeah, I mean, having actually been an eyewitness to all
of that, I don't buy a good chunk of it
just from what I have seen personally, you know, as
far as others, I think some of it was born
out of just the sheer level of confusion that was
(45:47):
generated from this traumatous, widespread traumatic event. And there were
so many things that were latched onto, you know, that
were taken from you know, eyewitness accounts that were in
a state of absolute trauma.
Speaker 2 (46:03):
Like things that I thought that I saw, you know.
Speaker 3 (46:08):
Weren't corroborated by the evidence after it happened. And so
I'm very careful of what I would believe as far
as those things are concerned, as it relates to any
type of conspiracy theory. And I will also say too
that just protecting my mental health, I do not dig
(46:28):
into that stuff.
Speaker 4 (46:30):
It's not something I go on rabbit trails for or
try to seek out information on.
Speaker 1 (46:37):
I lived through October first in Vegas. You know, we
lived through that and I had to keep my daughter
home from school. Oh no, Yeah, when you're there and
you see the chaos and you understand, it's a different
perspectives than when you know you're reading a book or
watching a movie and you come.
Speaker 2 (46:50):
Up with it there.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
But when you said that you questioned your own account
when you heard other accounts. Give us an example of that.
Speaker 4 (46:59):
I mean, I'm trying to think of an exact example.
There were just maybe things that I thought that I.
Speaker 2 (47:06):
Heard or or saw.
Speaker 3 (47:09):
But you know, when I I mentioned that I met
with the police officers and they are obviously pulling a
bunch of testimony together and have you know, the evidence
from the scene that they're able to use.
Speaker 2 (47:26):
That some of the.
Speaker 3 (47:27):
Things that maybe I thought that I saw, Like I
thought at one point that, you know, a bullet.
Speaker 2 (47:35):
Hit my desk, and it didn't, So that was that
was something.
Speaker 3 (47:41):
When I went back to the library and I was
able to see my desk and my table. I was
able to see like, no, nothing had hit where I was.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
So it was just you know, things like that.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
Well, the FBI could have easily swapped out that desk
before you got vent there.
Speaker 2 (47:57):
Right, you're so in so doubt to me now everything
I hate.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
Jokes, but you know, such a serious situation. But no,
But what about the idea that maybe there were other
shooters in the background that maybe you didn't see. Is
that possible?
Speaker 2 (48:16):
So, and I think I.
Speaker 3 (48:17):
Know where it came from because we were behind the
cop car. There was a lot of confusion about where
the gunmen were and where they were shooting from.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
And so.
Speaker 3 (48:33):
I think that there was a student who you know,
maybe saw something and said something, and so it was
just that level of you know, honestly confusion at the
you know, post the event happening that I think was
the reason why some of those theories popped up. But
(48:54):
I don't think that there was more than one shooter
there more than two.
Speaker 1 (48:58):
Sorry, your group, your group friend your friend group they
call it now or the friend group. Yeah, okay, that
and you must have talked about this over the years.
Do any of them think that maybe there was something
more going on some suspicious no.
Speaker 2 (49:13):
Not that I know of. I think those of us
that honestly lived.
Speaker 3 (49:18):
Through it, like our take being at the absoluteicenter of
this is at least in the circle that I'm in
and the people that I know, is a focus on
how do we go from here without looking back? And
(49:38):
we're not going to like live in the what maybe happened,
didn't happen that type of thing. We know our story,
like I know my truth. I know what I went through.
I know what I lived through, But I'm not going
to try and live in the ambiguity of the event.
I feel like that would be a waste of my
(50:00):
mental time and effort. I want to live in the
now and moving forward and what can I do with
what I went through to help others?
Speaker 2 (50:13):
And I feel like.
Speaker 3 (50:14):
If I were to go down that path, it would
be very bad for my present state. And I could
see I could see my my friends thinking the exact
same way, and the things that they have chosen to
do post Columbine with their lives.
Speaker 1 (50:30):
Must have also seen friends who have have not whether
this as well obviously as you have. You know they
must have come on all kinds after reaction to trauma
people go through, Yes, and you've seen that.
Speaker 3 (50:45):
Sounds of course, and i've you know, one of my
friends sadly committed suicide.
Speaker 1 (50:56):
It's just amazing close brush it's very often.
Speaker 3 (50:59):
Yeah, And the ways that that level of trauma impacted
everybody was.
Speaker 2 (51:09):
I mean, that's a hard thing.
Speaker 3 (51:12):
And I even looking at myself right now, I feel
like I've done a lot of healing, but I still
there are still days where it can get to me and.
Speaker 2 (51:25):
I can still struggle with certain things.
Speaker 3 (51:28):
I'm proud of myself for how far I've come and
the work that I've done and the ways that I
have I feel like use my experience to hopefully.
Speaker 2 (51:39):
Make the world better.
Speaker 3 (51:41):
I feel like I am proud of myself for choosing life. Like,
when you go through this, you have to choose life again.
It's it's very easy to just be like, Okay, well
i'm going to numb out, I'm going to you know,
go through the motions. I'm gonna, you know, kind of
(52:02):
just give up. You could very easily give up after
something like this. And there were times that I wanted
to not necessarily.
Speaker 2 (52:10):
Die, but just not try anymore.
Speaker 3 (52:13):
And I'm proud of myself for choosing to live. You
have to choose to live after.
Speaker 2 (52:19):
Something like this.
Speaker 3 (52:21):
You know.
Speaker 1 (52:22):
I hate to keep dropping these bombs on you, But
just yesterday, just yesterday, I interviewed an old friend of mine.
She's a death duela, you know, like you have a
birth duela. She's a death duelo. Yeah. Oh, the oldest
person in the world. She's just so cool.
Speaker 2 (52:34):
But I believe it.
Speaker 1 (52:35):
I sprang on her. I just spent like two years dying.
I had a hard thing. I was dying. I thought
it was gonna when I dwelled on death the only time.
I couldn't sleep at night. I couldn't breathe it. And
thank god, you know, I had a little procedure on
some medication. I'm great now. So I know what you're
talking about.
Speaker 2 (52:49):
Man.
Speaker 1 (52:50):
I lived on the thinking about death in the afternoon
and all for a long time. Yeah, I know you're
talking about that. Okay, But back to this situation here.
Did you notice any of the political the politicization of
the event. Were there p R groups and like PR
groups for the drug industry, the mental you know, anti
(53:13):
you know, and the gun industry and already did did
they all swoop in and trying to control the story.
Did you notice that?
Speaker 3 (53:21):
Yeah, I mean like and I I, as I mentioned,
was in a very particular religious group. I don't consider
my part of this religious group anymore. I think that
they very much co opted the story in a lot
of ways to.
Speaker 2 (53:38):
You know, with an agenda to tell the story of
you know.
Speaker 3 (53:43):
The miraculous and how God saves people and uses people
and chooses people.
Speaker 2 (53:48):
And and that type of thing.
Speaker 3 (53:51):
I think that, uh I I saw for sure, uh A,
I would say, rally towards trying to bring Christian values
in public spaces and using this as a means of
doing so.
Speaker 2 (54:10):
And back in you know, one.
Speaker 3 (54:12):
Of the efforts that I was a part of, I
don't agree with it now, but was to get ten
Commandments in schools, and that was there was an agenda
behind doing that.
Speaker 2 (54:23):
For sure.
Speaker 3 (54:24):
I spoke with you know, our country's leaders at the
time to get help make that happen. So yeah, I
would say that, I mean as as common in these
types of situations as they get co opted by certain
interest groups who want to use them.
Speaker 2 (54:41):
To meet their own agendas.
Speaker 3 (54:43):
And I was definitely, looking back in hindsight, used as
upon to do those things because I have a compelling
and powerful story, and I think part of where I'm
at now is reclaiming my story and using it in
the ways that I want to, and using it for
the agendas that I I want to and not allowing
(55:03):
myself to be exploited in any way.
Speaker 2 (55:08):
It's it's it's a very per but what was what's difficult.
Speaker 3 (55:13):
About Columbine is it's a very public tragedy that happened.
Speaker 2 (55:19):
Everybody knows.
Speaker 3 (55:20):
I can say to most people, even people that you
know we're young at the time. You know that I
was in the library during the Columbine shooting. Most people
had some sort of frame or reference for what that
means here in the US because of its place in
our history.
Speaker 2 (55:36):
It was a very personal experience for me, and so.
Speaker 3 (55:43):
It's my story is personal to me, and the trauma
that I face as a result is personal to me.
And so I want to be the one who is
calling the shots and driving.
Speaker 2 (55:56):
That car, not letting somebody else.
Speaker 3 (55:59):
Do it anymore.
Speaker 1 (56:00):
You know, if only you had gotten a patent on
bulletproof tank commandments, you could have you could have said
that right now you a billionaire. We have the next
Heidi Johnson. But Heidi Johnson Healing Water Waters or what
Healing Waters.
Speaker 3 (56:19):
Healingwas dot org. Yeah, it's the organization that I work for.
We're doing really good work around the world. I think
meeting a core need and you think about water and
how essential it is, it so much comes out of that,
and so being able to provide safe water to people
is going to change communities.
Speaker 2 (56:38):
Change lives forever.
Speaker 3 (56:40):
So I feel very fortunate to be able to be
a part of that movement.
Speaker 1 (56:45):
And how do you guys fund this Healingwater dot org.
It can't be. There's no profit involved in this, right,
there's not a lot of money making up for No.
Speaker 3 (56:51):
We're not yeah, yeah, I'm not doing this to get
rich by any means.
Speaker 2 (56:57):
No, we we rely on individuals who believe in are
cause and who can uh see the need.
Speaker 3 (57:07):
I think that it's hard here in the United States,
it's hard and maybe other Western countries to be able
to conceptualize the suffering the other people face. And I
think that it's such an easy thing when you're isolated
from that here to not care. Honestly, it's very easy
for people in our state, and I mean it's a
(57:28):
temptation for me as well to just care about me
and mine and even if that means me and my country.
And I feel though, like you know, with us being
the wealthiest country, most powerful country in the nation, that
we have a duty to help others, and having seen
(57:49):
this level of suffering firsthand, I I feel like it's
something that I am always encouraged by people who want
to help. And so we are supported by a group
of many people who have come alongside us to help
us provide these solutions.
Speaker 1 (58:09):
I tell you, if only we could bomb this water
into submission, we would have the problem solved overnight, all
the load of your good wife. Just drop bombs on this. Yes,
we'll come up with another plan. Or if we can
for us somebody to get them more than sell it
back to them right then then we'll get the promom
self that way too as well. Heidi Johnson, thank you
(58:31):
so much, and thank you so much for being flexible
with me about the schedule. And yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (58:34):
Apologize getting old.
Speaker 1 (58:38):
Heidi Johnson Healing Waters dot org. It's called Healing Waters
International and you can find her on Facebook at h
L Quartet c R T e Z.
Speaker 2 (58:49):
Thank you so much, Hiding Yes, thank you, wonderful to
talk to you.
Speaker 1 (58:53):
It really was, thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (58:55):
Yep, good bye bye
It's the Opperman Report, and now here is investigator Opperman. Okay,
welcome to the Opperman Report. I'm your host, private investigator
at Opperman. You can get a hold of me at
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(00:23):
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(00:45):
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The Mueller Grand Jury about the Michael Cohn p tapes.
(01:08):
Another exclusive. Guys, never done an interview in since twenty nineteen.
When you put up that content otherwise you find me
Friday nights Sprinker dot com. We do a live show
there one hour every Friday night apm Eastern time. This
two hours of brand new podcast content and then as
well play repeats every night of the week. We have
today Heidi Johnson, and she's a survivor of the Columbine shooting, Okay,
(01:35):
and you can find her at Healingwaters dot org and
on Facebook at hl Cortes with a Z. Miss Heidi Johnson.
Are you there?
Speaker 2 (01:45):
I am great to be here, Ed, thank you for
having me.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Yeah, thank you so much. Hey, before we get into
Healingwaters dot org and the whole Columbine shooting which you survived. Yeah,
tell us about yourself. Who is Heidi Johnson?
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Who is high Ay Johnson? What a question? And where
to start with that?
Speaker 3 (02:05):
I am a global development practitioner. I have the amazing
opportunity to work for an organization that I absolutely love,
which has.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Working in this work, working.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
In humanitarian development work, I've been able to travel the
world and go to places that I feel like very
few people get to go to have been exposed to
cultures and have been able to see sites that I
feel like the average person just will never see. So
I feel very fortunate and blessed, but really am passionate
(02:39):
about using whatever power that I have, whatever I've been given,
you know, even as a survivors somebody who made it
that day on April twentieth, to use that power that
I have, the life that I have to make the
world a better place. So I look for opportunities to
(02:59):
do that is much as I possibly can.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Well, well, explain what this is. You're talking about Healing
Waters dot org. Healing Water is international, and what exactly
is that?
Speaker 3 (03:09):
Yeah, so we are an organization that works in providing
safe water solutions.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
So I don't know if many people are aware that
two billion.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
People don't have access to safe water around the world,
and that produces great levels of suffering. At any point
in time, half of the hospital beds around by somebody
who has a water or illness. So, I mean you
think about just the outflows of not having safe water,
you drink unsafe water, the diseases that that can cause,
(03:42):
What that means for productivity, what that means for health.
And so we're providing abundance safe water solutions predominantly.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
In Latin America and Haiti in very.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
Rural and remote areas where people are truly suffering because
they don't have access to water, and we like to
provide water.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
And as we say.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
In abundance, so a lot of solutions will provide enough
water for drinking, which is wonderful and it's a great start,
but it's only a start.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
And so we like to.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
Make sure that people have water for every need. And
we think about how many uses we have water for
here in the West and how often we use it,
and we don't even think twice about it. I mean,
we are so incredibly wasteful with water. I was just
at a water park with my son and just thinking
about how much water is at this at this water
(04:35):
park and what people around the world would give to
have access to something like them. So we provide solutions
that are going to help people have water for bathing,
for cooking, for cleaning, for laundry, for everything that they
possibly need, which is going to help produce the best
outroads out of poverty. So love the work that I
(04:56):
do and being able to be a part of something
that I think is truly transformative in our world.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
You know, that's so true, and you hear these stories.
It's usually the woman of the family, the wife or
the mother of the family that has to be all
day long in one direction and bring back a pot
of water, sometimes on their head. They do it every
day since they're a baby, just just for the family's
daily water. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
Yeah, and that's I mean, that prohibits them from being
able to do to anything any other things.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
That's the whole day.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
And you think about it, if they had if they
had the time, and they had the ability, and they
didn't have to do that, what could they produce, what
could they invent, what could they pursue if that wasn't.
Speaker 2 (05:42):
A barrier anymore? So yeah, I completely agree.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Yeah yeah. So so practically, as a practical matter, what
exactly does Healing Water International do? How does they make
this possible?
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Yeah? So we work with partners on the ground.
Speaker 3 (05:58):
We have teams in Mexico, Haiti, and Guatemala. People that
are from those countries know how to navigate those countries
and those systems build partnerships. We've worked with local municipalities
and we build large scale typically large scale water infrastructure.
So this is using usually groundwater and purifying it so
(06:22):
that it is up to what we say EPA standards.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
It gets rid of difficult contaminants.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
We were just working in a community where the mining
industry dumped a lot of very harmful contaminants in the
river source, and so there were things that could not
just be purified through traditional easy means, and so we
did some really comprehensive engineering and I say we, I
(06:49):
mean our engineering team, but using technologies that are not
i would say really seen in the developing world quite
as much. And so that community just received safe water.
We celebrated and inaugurated that system actually this past week.
And so it's it's building like more large scale water
(07:13):
infrastructure projects, so not so much wells or you know,
household filtration mechanisms. It's doing things that would maybe be
similar to solutions we use.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Here in the US.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Now, the way you and I met was through h
You're a survivor of the Columbine shooting. So tell us
about that. You had to be really young, you had
to be like a freshman.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Yeah, I was a sophomore. I was, and I'm a
young I was a young sophomore. So I was fifteen
at the time, so yeah, I was. I went to Columbine.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
I went to private school all the way through age
grade and really wanted to go to my neighborhood public school,
which was Columbine. A lot of my friends went there,
and so I enrolled freshman year and then was there,
you know, through my sophomore year. So it was towards
(08:08):
the end of the school year. And around that time
it was typical for the seniors to do pranks, I think,
and we had I don't know if it was a
normal high school experience or not, but the seniors could
pull some really.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Amazing pranks.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
I think at one point they had dumped crickets all
the way down the stairs of.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
The school and so they just did some crazy things.
Speaker 3 (08:32):
So anyways, I was in the library.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
I was getting some homework done.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
On April twentieth, nineteen ninety nine, was at a table
there looking out at the mountains. I'm here in Colorado
and just plugging away. I was supposed to be cheerleading
tryouts that evening, and so I was really focused on getting.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Getting my homework done. I had, like I was very
focused on, you know, completing my to do list, and.
Speaker 3 (09:05):
I would say a few minutes into the library period,
I began to hear these loud bangs going off that
were starting to almost shake the library and had no
idea what it was. Was really honestly not too bothered
by it. Thought that maybe it was construction. I thought
(09:29):
that maybe, as I had mentioned, the seniors were throwing
a prank. Like I was like, oh, there's something that's
just happening, you know, and was not really worried at all.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
And so.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
I continued to do my homework and bangs continued, and
started maybe getting a little bit concerned, started thinking, what
is this, you know, this feels a little bit off,
and so U basically what happened at that point is
(10:03):
a pipe bomb, which I didn't know.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
I mean, I know now, but a pipe bomb.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
Went off right outside of the library, and the library
began to fill with smoke. And this all happened so
fast and so slow at the same time. But a
teacher came running into the room and she seemed just
incredibly frantic. I remember, you know, her just looking very distraught,
and she was telling us everybody, a kid has been shot,
(10:30):
a kid has been shot, a kid has been shot.
And she was just saying that over and over again,
and she was like, get under your tables, get under
your tables now. And I got under my table, still
like so skeptical about what was happenings, still not entirely
sure about, like just almost in a state of disbelief.
(10:52):
She goes behind the library desk at the front and
I hear her get on the phone with nine on
one one and she making calls for them and basically
saying what she was telling us that a kid has
been shot. She's a Calmulbine High school. You know they
need emergency right now, police right now. And so she
(11:13):
continues to yell at us because some of the kids
weren't listening, like kids, get under your tables, get under
your tables. So I got under my table, or at
some point in time, got under my table, and I
just remember it was just me there and there was,
you know, a library table with about six chairs surrounding it,
and I pulled each of those chairs as close to
my body as I possibly could and just kind of
(11:36):
couched over into like a little ball. The library was
filling with smoke more smoke at this time, and the
fire alarm started going off. The lights went off, and
it was just what felt like chaos. I could see
(11:56):
the entrance and the exit to the library from my table,
and I looked over to the entrance and I see
these two kind of shadowy figures enter the library, and
I could see make out from what I could see
that they were holding.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Guns, that one of them had.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Artillery strapped to his shoulder, that they're wearing trench coats.
And they said to us, everybody, get ready to die,
is the first thing that came out of their mind
or their mouth.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
And they proceeded to just start shooting.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
And there were three sections to the library. I was
in the third section even and they were separated by books,
so I was in the third section, but I could
still see a lot of what was happening because of
where my table was physicianed, and so at first I
heard a lot of shots and screens, and then it
progressively got closer and closer to me, and there.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Were computer copies directly in front of me.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
One of the first things that I saw them do,
as the shadows continue to move closer and closer to
where the shooters did, is they went and put their
gun directly under the computer cuby and pulled the trigger,
and I remember the.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Kid that was there basically just slump over.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
They walked around my table to where there was a
lot of other students, and I was seeing them point
there their gun under the tables and pull.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
The trigger, and I could hear.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
I could hear students who had been shot, and you
know what they were saying, and you know, they were
saying things like, I can't believe you just shot him,
stuff like that. The shooters continued to talk to us
while we were under our table, saying things like, hey,
(13:53):
if you get up from under your table, we won't
kill you. They were saying many many other horrific things
that I would never want to repeat, using racial slurs,
making fun of particularly jocks, people who were wearing white hats.
(14:15):
And they kept saying so at that time in high school,
it meant that you were a jock.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
And so.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
You know the backstory of the shooters at Columbine is
that they were heavily bullied by the jocks and so
when they came into the library, they were.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
They were really targeting.
Speaker 3 (14:42):
Everybody and wanted to kill as many people as they
possibly could.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
But they did call out people with white.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
Hats uh that day, And so that's one of the
things I remember hearing quite a bit.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Let me ask a question real quick. Now, at this
time when this happened, now, we weren't experiencing these shootings
like we are now all the time, Like kids in
high school today are used to this kind of thing happening. Yes,
What was it though about you that you knew to
go there and make like a little barricade with the
chairs and stuff like? What made you have that presence
of mind to to do that kind of thing?
Speaker 2 (15:23):
I mean, I think I was just listening to the
teacher that.
Speaker 3 (15:26):
Came in and was warning us that a kid had
been shot, and she had told us to get under
our tables. And I mean that, I would say, was
me just kind of following what was being told to me?
Speaker 1 (15:41):
And you know the kids doing that too? Is everyone?
Speaker 3 (15:45):
Yeah, everybody got under their tables for the most part,
and kids got under their computer cubbies. Everybody was kind
of just sheltering in place basically. I mean, I think
that the teacher was just trying to tell us something
that would help cover us or protect us at some level.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Because teachers weren't prepared for the teachers.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
Yes, and there was no no frame of reference. No,
we didn't do active shooter drills or that that. Like
you said that, this wasn't. Columbine was one of the
first major mass shootings that happened in our country, and
so this was something that I know just shocked everybody.
(16:27):
And so basically, the shooters after they had shot really
around my section. At one point in time, I could
see their boots through the the you know, slits of
my table as they were walking by, and I could
see their shotgun shells kind of rolling on the ground
(16:48):
as they were firing their weapon. They are continuing to
talk to us, They're continuing to warn us and basically say,
don't worry, You're all going to be dead soon. And so,
you know, I honestly, in that moment, was bracing.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Today.
Speaker 3 (17:06):
I had that experience which I think is common, where
I just was almost my body, my mind was preparing
itself for its last or last moments on earth, and
I was almost essentially saying goodbye to the life that
(17:27):
I had, saying goodbye to my you know, family, my dog,
my friends, and just getting ready for it to be
my last day. They came very, very close to my
table and looked under and I at one point made
eye contact with one of the shooters. He had in
(17:50):
the chaos of everything, shot his nose or hurt his nose,
and so his face was bloody and his eyes were
almost like there was nobody there looking at.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
This person did not look like a person.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
It looked more like a zombie, somebody who had just
completely left.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
And for whatever reason, he didn't shoot me.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
I I don't know what the cause of that was.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
But soon after that they left the library.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
I found out later that they had large pro paane
tank bombs that were underneath us in the cafeteria. So
the library was directly above the cafeteria, and they put
propane tank bombs down in the cafeteria that had not detonated.
If they had, it would have killed all of us.
But we found out from a you know, a bomb
(18:51):
expert later that they had a few wires crossed and
so fortunately those didn't go off. But what they did
was go check on them and try shooting them to detonate. Well,
we took that as a moment of time after and
I could see them leave, as I mentioned, being able
to see the exit to get up I remember getting
(19:15):
up and I saw some of my fellow students, some
who had been shot, people that just looked like.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
They were in total shock.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
And I made eye contact with one of my friends,
still friends with him to this day, and we both
kind of said, like, should we get out of here?
And we went through an emergency exit where we were
greeted by cops to come outside of the school. So
from there we were able to be taken to a
(19:45):
secure location where we basically stayed until finally our parents
were able to come and get us.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
So even the cops weren't ready for this kind of thing.
They didn't know how to handle.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Us, not at all, you know.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
And when I exited the school through the emergency exit,
the cops had their guns drawn at us, so they
had their guns pointed at us, not knowing what was
happening either, and so we kind of ran to them.
I think they could easily tell that we were not,
(20:25):
you know, the shooters, and they motioned for us to
come back behind the cop car. It was just two
of them, two cops, that's it, pointing their guns at
the school and tons of kids who were in this
library situation behind their cop car.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
Several of them wounded, and I remember the cops just saying,
you know, take care of the wounded.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
And so we were taking our socks off and making turniquits.
We were trying to stop the bleeding of students. I
heard students asking ones that had been shot, you know,
like trying to just keep them calm, asking them like,
you know, how was your sociology test today? Tell me
about that.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
So, trying our.
Speaker 3 (21:12):
Best as teenagers, almost ending for ourselves at that point
in time. Eventually the cops told us to get into
their cop car. They took care, of course, the wounded
first and got them out, but eventually they came back
and got us, and they took us to a cold sack.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
So that was kind of how we got to a
safer space.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
You mentioned earlier, you're hiding in the copy there right
and you could see their trench coats and their boots.
Now did you recognize these guys? And you know from
school right away and say, hey, those those two guys
Harrison Claibol, did you know them?
Speaker 3 (21:55):
So they had a reputation. Columbine's a big school. I
mean there was you know, a few thousand students there,
and I was a sophomore.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
They were seniors, and.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
So I had heard of them through friends, that there
was a group called the trench Coat Mafia and that
they were, you know, highly bullied and different and you know, kind.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Of ostracized in a lot of ways.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
But I did not have any personal connections to them
at all, or any conversations to them at all.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Just didn't know them.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
So you didn't know their names at all.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
I didn't know.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
But you had seen other people walking around with trench
coats and boots.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
Yeah, yes, And I mean again, it was such a
big school and I didn't register it. I they had
a reputation, but it wasn't something that I had taken
note of or ever thought was going to be threatening
to me in any way.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
You know, never had that sense.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
Like I went to school, they're generally feeling pretty safe
and never would have imagined this happening.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
So so now after you're out there with the cops
and stuff like that, were you ever questioned by the police,
you were an eyewitnessed everything that went on.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
At that point. No, I mean the cops were just
in full chaos mode, it was. And so when we
get to the cold a sack, so many people are wounded.
Neighbors are coming out, they're bringing towels, you know, trying
to help the situation. We have new crews pulling into
(23:39):
the cold a sack interviewing us. You know, we're all
still in absolute shock, and so our ability to articulate
what had happened was very limited. And you know, we
see it was almost like a trifle of More and
more people continue to come to the location over time.
(24:01):
I remember seeing a teacher and she came up and
gave me a hug and was like, Hidie, I'm so
glad you're safe. We at one point in time, got
a lot of other students together and we formed like
a prayer circle and we started, you know, praying for
our school and for the other students and people that
we weren't sure if they were okay. There was just
(24:23):
so many questions at that point in time about everyone
I was. Eventually I was welcomed into the home because
everything's barricaded, so we can't leave this cul de sac.
I was welcomed into one of the homes of a
friend of mine, and you know, they allowed me to
call my parents, and because my parents didn't even know,
(24:46):
like we didn't have cell phones back then.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
That's how long ago this was.
Speaker 4 (24:50):
As I couldn't even get a whole It's not like
I could call my mom and be like, hey, I'm okay.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
So I called my mom.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
She was at work, and she is like, Heidi, are
you okay? And I'm like yes, Mom.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
She's like, did you see people die? And I said yes, mom.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
You imagine I terrified your mom was not here from
you because not you're a mom, right. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Yeah. When she told me, she's like, your dad's gonna
come get you.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
And my dad it took him until like five pm
that night to finally reach me because of all the
barricades and red tape and.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Everything.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
I was going to say too, because you mentioned that
you because made a prayer circle. So when you were
down there in that cubby by yourself, though, were you
you must have been prying, right, I was.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
I mean, you're just like, I mean, you're in a
state of I mean one so much shock and disbelief.
And it's weird when I mean, and I feel like
it's an experience that not a lot of other people
go through, But when you are preparing your self to die,
it's like you are at once very terrified and scared,
(26:07):
and I'm like, I am not ready to die. I'm
not I have so many more things that i want
to do with my life, Like I'm not ready to
leave this earth. But at the same time, you have
like this weird sense of calm and peace, and I
felt that in that moment, and prayer helped me in
that moment to really just kind of stay centered and
(26:31):
not lose the plot and stay very present minded. I
was interviewed by the police, you know, several days after
the shooting happened, and they told me that my account
of the situation was one of the most cohesive ones
that they had, and I think I was. I attribute
(26:55):
it to me just being able to remain calm in
that situation is best so that I could.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
So when you said that you made eye contact with
one of the shooters, do you know now which one
it was Dylan or it was Er It was Eric Harris?
Speaker 3 (27:12):
It was Eric, Yeah, And as I mentioned, he just
looked like he wasn't even there, like just completely like
almost when someone has that glazed over look, that's what
he had. And it was almost like staring at somebody
who was not human.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
I did why he spared you and can you imagine
you must have thought about this a lot.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
I mean, there's a piece in me that and it's
hard because you know, you can kind of go through
a lot of survivor's guilt. And I have definitely worn
the cloak and prep because as I survive, I now
have to do something meaningful and great with my life
(28:04):
because I was spared for a reason.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
And I feel like in some ways that in.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
Looking back and processing and it now being over twenty
years since this happened, is that that created a lot
of pressure on me that you was resulting from a
situation that I did not ask for. I do feel
like I have perspectives on life and on suffering and
(28:33):
an empathy I think for what maybe others, especially in
other parts of the world, who don't have access to
the same level of resources that we have here. I
like being driven more by my empathy and compassion resulting
from experiencing a traumatic event versus me feeling like I
(28:59):
have to pay a debt of some kind.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
I feel like that.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
Makes my work much more genuine and authentic and.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Heart focused, versus me trying to.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
Get out of some sort of guilt that you know,
I survived, So now I have to do something good
and wonderful and meaningful with my life, which I definitely
felt that way for a very long time. Is that, oh, Heidi,
you made it. You shouldn't have, I mean.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
Why all?
Speaker 3 (29:33):
And the answer is is, I don't know why I survived.
I don't There's no reason I should have. Honestly, my
section was the deadliest section of the library. It was
where most of the people died, everyone around me. You know,
I went back to the library when it was still
a crying scene to just see where I was kind
(29:56):
of solidify some things in my memory, be able to
you know, walk out empowered as not a victim. And
when I went into the library and I saw the
crime scene.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
I mean it was My table was virtually.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
Untouched and everything surrounding it. The bookcases right next to
me had bullet holes all in them.
Speaker 2 (30:23):
The computer cubbies.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
In front of me were ripped open by bullets, the
other tables, I mean, blood stains everywhere. I should not
have survived. I don't know how and why I did.
And I the best that I can do is just
go on and live life, and live life, as I mentioned,
(30:48):
just full of compassion and empathy and with an understanding
of what survival feels like and use that as a
means to hopefully alleviate some level of suffering in the world.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
Well, it's an extreme trauma to go through something like
that right in your death experience. Did you have some
kind of therapy like at that period of time?
Speaker 3 (31:10):
So I feel like we've grown so much as a
society as it relates to mental health, and I'm so
thankful for that. It was not, It was not at
the forefront when I had went through this, and I
ruthfully white knuckled it for over ten years. Wow. So I.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
I mean I would have panic attacks and would try
to just work through them. I would see things that
would remind me of the shooters and instantly go into.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
A state of panic. I could not be around fireworks
for a very long time.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
I remember being at disney World and my dad had
to pull me into the candy store and lock eyes
with me because fireworks were going off and I was
in a tailspin.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
So, yeah, therapy was not something that I went through.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
I post Columbine, I traveled and I spoke, and I
think that there was a level of almost toxicity in
my survivor hood in that Heidi survived for a reason,
God spared her for a reason.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
Was a lot of the messaging that came out of that.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
And you know, here she is having gone through a
traumatic event and not needing you know, therapy, not needing medication.
And meanwhile I definitely needed all of those things.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
And so.
Speaker 3 (32:49):
When I hit age twenty five, I, after white.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
Knuckling it for ten years.
Speaker 3 (32:55):
I basically had what I would say was a mental
break and I just could not anymore. I definitely did
not want to leave this orth. I wanted to continue living,
but the trauma of what I went through was could
I could not escape it anymore? It was just constant
(33:16):
in my face and constant where I was really unable to,
I would say, function in a healthy way. And so
I really dug in at that moment in time to
pursuing healing for myself.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
And now you were saying that when you were during
that period of time when you were doing those speaking engagements,
was that through the church you were doing church speaking. Yeah,
I went with it myself. Yeah, I had a little
miracle happened. Oh I was to go to prison for
fifteen years. I cannot say that I got out of
that when I got saved and when we work for
(33:52):
a tent ministry. I actually lived in travel with a
tent ministry for many years. But I've seen that, Oh yes,
I know that that circuit they get you, and it's it's.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
It's a circuit.
Speaker 3 (34:05):
Well and it's I mean, there's I mean, I understand why.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
I mean they mean, well, they're well meaning. They mean well,
they're well meaning people, and it is a miracle. You
know you can see that. Yes, but then they start
to hold you to a high stand for me, Yeah,
I agree with that. Yeah, well, now what about though
you had there were so many people that went through
(34:30):
the same thing as you. You had friends at that school.
So now did you form like a little group with
them and go back and revisit the events?
Speaker 2 (34:39):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (34:40):
So, uh there's a few people that I you know,
still am in contact with to this day. We spoke
together and have a lot of shared experiences. I think
being able to share trauma with people is so helpful.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
There's going through something that.
Speaker 3 (35:05):
Is that traumatic where most of society won't know what
that's like or won't know you know, how that feels
and how to recover from that.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
To be able to have allies and people that.
Speaker 3 (35:19):
Have been there is definitely a gift and I feel
bonded to these people for life. You know, we'll go
periods of time where we won't see each other for
a while, but I think just being able to have
(35:40):
people that get it, because not a lot of people
will and you don't feel so alone because it can
be very trauma, particularly a very acute violent trauma, can
make you feel alone. It can make you feel like
am I the crazy one? I mean, there were things
that were rolling through my head post Columbine that I'm like.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
What what is that?
Speaker 3 (36:03):
And it was all just related to what I had
seen in my brain trying to make sense of it,
and so being able to hear that other people had
seen or similar experiences is very affirming and validating and
makes you feel like you're not the crazy one in
the situation.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
You know, when we booked this interview, I was on
the impression that you were like a gun control spokesperson
or something like that. I don't know why, you know,
I'm busy. So now what is your position?
Speaker 3 (36:36):
Now?
Speaker 1 (36:36):
What do you think? This is a I want to phenomenon,
this This situation of kids going to school. What do
you what You've been living this for a long time,
You've been dwelling on the situation, You've had some ideas.
What do you think is the way that's out of
this craziness?
Speaker 2 (36:55):
I mean, and I'm not going to sit here and claim.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
I have You're not going to solve but forrest, come on,
I brought you on the show.
Speaker 3 (37:05):
Yeah, you're like, this is the whole reason you were invited,
and you're going to give us all the answers the
gun violence in the United States. And I mean, I
think hot from a high level is that we we
have not been willing to grapple with this issue the
way that it needs to be done and the causality
(37:26):
behind it as a country, and the fact that this
has become and I think I mentioned earlier on that,
you know, when Columbine happened, it shocked everybody. Everyone was
asking how on earth could this happen? And I think
many were saying, never again are we going to allow
this to happen in our schools where children are and
(37:50):
and children feel unsafe going to school. Never again are
we going to let that happen? And it did happen,
and it happened again and again and again and again,
so much so that it is now part of our
regular conscious as a country, that this is something that
if it happens, it's no longer a front page story.
(38:13):
It's something that maybe is noted, you know, in a
news report. And we have become almost callous to the
fact that this is a regular thing. Uh. I hate
that my son who is going into middle school has
to go through active shooter drills. I hate that that
(38:35):
has to be something that they have to consider and
think about. And I just feel like we have not
done what we need to do as a country to
figure out why this happens here, which we have peer
countries that I could say, we could point to very
you know, similar things too that it doesn't happen in,
(38:59):
So why does it happen here? And you know, I
do think that there is a level of our love
affair with guns that creates a recipe sometimes for these
things to happen.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
But I think that it's it's.
Speaker 3 (39:19):
Very nuanced and deep, and I'm not going to be
somebody that's going to say that it needs to be
a black and white type of solution, And but I
do think that we really, we really need to take
a hard look as to why this is happening, and
I just don't feel like we have.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
I think what we have gotten to.
Speaker 3 (39:40):
Instead is almost just this is the status quo and
have settled into this being a part of what looks
like to live in America now, and almost to the
point where we have worked to manage to it rather
than prevent it it by doing you know, active shooter drills,
(40:04):
by trying to fortify schools. You know, we're trying to
manage it, manage the problem, make sure that we can
maybe reduce casualties when they happen, which I.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
Think has happened.
Speaker 3 (40:20):
Mass shootings are are not maybe as you know, disastrous
as they have been, but I would love to see
us just eliminate the cause. And that's something I think
that there hasn't been an appetite really to do at
a high level.
Speaker 5 (40:42):
And it's become like a political football too, you know,
like yeah, and we just go right back to the
same talking points every single time, and well like hypnotize
in this country, you know, and we have this gun fetish,
like you said that it's a fetish with people with
their guns.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
Yeah, what a You hear these theories about arming the
teachers or bringing cops onto the school. I think that's
a recipe for.
Speaker 3 (41:08):
Well, it's it's like, let's throw more guns at the
gun problem. You know, what this gun problem needs is
some more guns. Like that's it.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
I said, bring the cop on the school. The first
one is gonna be shot as a kid, you know,
and that's some gun shooting.
Speaker 3 (41:27):
God yeah, no I I.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
I again just feel like we need to figure out
the cause behind this, like why is it here?
Speaker 3 (41:38):
You know, We've seen other peer countries like New Zealand
Australia have mass shootings, work to figure it out and
then not have them again at the level that we
do here where it is a constant, regular thing, And
I just feel like we need to figure this out.
We really need to figure this out. And unfortunately it's
(42:01):
like we all say, you know, when the next big
one happens, maybe something will change, And we've said that
and said that, and said that and said that, and
I'm almost of the belief that it's going to just
be incremental change and us not giving up on the
problem and continuing to push forward and really researching what
(42:22):
good policy looks like, you know, not knee jerk, like,
let's just try and figure this out with a band
aid type solution.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
But what is really going to get at the problem.
Speaker 3 (42:36):
And so I have done some advocacy work for bipartisan
gun legislation really working more so to just get guns
out of the hands of people who present a violent
threat to themselves.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Or to others.
Speaker 3 (42:50):
I mean, we talk about mass shootings being a major issue,
but we have to look at, you know, the level
of gun suicides that happen or chilled and who get
a hold of a firearm and end up.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
Killing themselves or others. Uh, there's so much to.
Speaker 3 (43:07):
This problem that's just beyond the horrificness of a mass
shooting that I feel like, you know, domestic violence being
another one, and how many women die at the hand
of you know, their their partner on a regular basis.
And so it's a big problem and I think it's
(43:27):
something that needs a lot a lot of effort.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
And what about when you when you take your kids
to school, you know, you must have a you know,
an eye for you know, weaknesses, And what do you
do they come and consult with you, the say, you know, hey, HII,
you know how do we prevent this over I haven't.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
I haven't done that in a while. I did that
a little bit whereas a part.
Speaker 3 (43:51):
Of a few you know, think tanks on how to
do things, you know, and have I worked at a
school for a period.
Speaker 2 (44:00):
Of time where there was a.
Speaker 3 (44:02):
Shooting that took place at a high school very close
to where we were at, and we had to go
on full on lockdown and I had to man the
door of a particular interests exit just to make sure
that nobody could get in or out. And so, I mean,
it's it's something that is just the reality of our
schools nowadays. And I know that there are protocols that
(44:27):
you know, when my son is at school that they
have to follow, and you know, they're very strict security situations,
which I think can bring a level of comfort.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
But again, I think that it's all just managing.
Speaker 3 (44:42):
This situation that we have created versus really trying to
completely alleviate it.
Speaker 1 (44:49):
No, I've done I've done many many shows on Columbine,
you know, and mostly the conspiracy theory guys come on
the show. You know, Now, what do you make of that?
Speaker 3 (44:57):
Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (44:58):
I've done all was from way back, uh, and some
of them. Looking back, I kind of have some suspicions
about the guests more than I had. But now, what
about yourself? Because you hear these stories with that there
were other shooters there, there were people on the roof
that a lot of these trenchical mafia guys, their parents
were in the local law enforcement FBI, sheriff's department, all
(45:19):
kind of stuff. What do you make of alets have
you been living it?
Speaker 3 (45:24):
Yeah, I mean, having actually been an eyewitness to all
of that, I don't buy a good chunk of it
just from what I have seen personally, you know, as
far as others, I think some of it was born
out of just the sheer level of confusion that was
(45:47):
generated from this traumatous, widespread traumatic event. And there were
so many things that were latched onto, you know, that
were taken from you know, eyewitness accounts that were in
a state of absolute trauma.
Speaker 2 (46:03):
Like things that I thought that I saw, you know.
Speaker 3 (46:08):
Weren't corroborated by the evidence after it happened. And so
I'm very careful of what I would believe as far
as those things are concerned, as it relates to any
type of conspiracy theory. And I will also say too
that just protecting my mental health, I do not dig
(46:28):
into that stuff.
Speaker 4 (46:30):
It's not something I go on rabbit trails for or
try to seek out information on.
Speaker 1 (46:37):
I lived through October first in Vegas. You know, we
lived through that and I had to keep my daughter
home from school. Oh no, Yeah, when you're there and
you see the chaos and you understand, it's a different
perspectives than when you know you're reading a book or
watching a movie and you come.
Speaker 2 (46:50):
Up with it there.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
But when you said that you questioned your own account
when you heard other accounts. Give us an example of that.
Speaker 4 (46:59):
I mean, I'm trying to think of an exact example.
There were just maybe things that I thought that I.
Speaker 2 (47:06):
Heard or or saw.
Speaker 3 (47:09):
But you know, when I I mentioned that I met
with the police officers and they are obviously pulling a
bunch of testimony together and have you know, the evidence
from the scene that they're able to use.
Speaker 2 (47:26):
That some of the.
Speaker 3 (47:27):
Things that maybe I thought that I saw, Like I
thought at one point that, you know, a bullet.
Speaker 2 (47:35):
Hit my desk, and it didn't, So that was that
was something.
Speaker 3 (47:41):
When I went back to the library and I was
able to see my desk and my table. I was
able to see like, no, nothing had hit where I was.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
So it was just you know, things like that.
Speaker 1 (47:54):
Well, the FBI could have easily swapped out that desk
before you got vent there.
Speaker 2 (47:57):
Right, you're so in so doubt to me now everything
I hate.
Speaker 1 (48:05):
Jokes, but you know, such a serious situation. But no,
But what about the idea that maybe there were other
shooters in the background that maybe you didn't see. Is
that possible?
Speaker 2 (48:16):
So, and I think I.
Speaker 3 (48:17):
Know where it came from because we were behind the
cop car. There was a lot of confusion about where
the gunmen were and where they were shooting from.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
And so.
Speaker 3 (48:33):
I think that there was a student who you know,
maybe saw something and said something, and so it was
just that level of you know, honestly confusion at the
you know, post the event happening that I think was
the reason why some of those theories popped up. But
(48:54):
I don't think that there was more than one shooter
there more than two.
Speaker 1 (48:58):
Sorry, your group, your group friend your friend group they
call it now or the friend group. Yeah, okay, that
and you must have talked about this over the years.
Do any of them think that maybe there was something
more going on some suspicious no.
Speaker 2 (49:13):
Not that I know of. I think those of us
that honestly lived.
Speaker 3 (49:18):
Through it, like our take being at the absoluteicenter of
this is at least in the circle that I'm in
and the people that I know, is a focus on
how do we go from here without looking back? And
(49:38):
we're not going to like live in the what maybe happened,
didn't happen that type of thing. We know our story,
like I know my truth. I know what I went through.
I know what I lived through, But I'm not going
to try and live in the ambiguity of the event.
I feel like that would be a waste of my
(50:00):
mental time and effort. I want to live in the
now and moving forward and what can I do with
what I went through to help others?
Speaker 2 (50:13):
And I feel like.
Speaker 3 (50:14):
If I were to go down that path, it would
be very bad for my present state. And I could
see I could see my my friends thinking the exact
same way, and the things that they have chosen to
do post Columbine with their lives.
Speaker 1 (50:30):
Must have also seen friends who have have not whether
this as well obviously as you have. You know they
must have come on all kinds after reaction to trauma
people go through, Yes, and you've seen that.
Speaker 3 (50:45):
Sounds of course, and i've you know, one of my
friends sadly committed suicide.
Speaker 1 (50:56):
It's just amazing close brush it's very often.
Speaker 3 (50:59):
Yeah, And the ways that that level of trauma impacted
everybody was.
Speaker 2 (51:09):
I mean, that's a hard thing.
Speaker 3 (51:12):
And I even looking at myself right now, I feel
like I've done a lot of healing, but I still
there are still days where it can get to me and.
Speaker 2 (51:25):
I can still struggle with certain things.
Speaker 3 (51:28):
I'm proud of myself for how far I've come and
the work that I've done and the ways that I
have I feel like use my experience to hopefully.
Speaker 2 (51:39):
Make the world better.
Speaker 3 (51:41):
I feel like I am proud of myself for choosing life. Like,
when you go through this, you have to choose life again.
It's it's very easy to just be like, Okay, well
i'm going to numb out, I'm going to you know,
go through the motions. I'm gonna, you know, kind of
(52:02):
just give up. You could very easily give up after
something like this. And there were times that I wanted
to not necessarily.
Speaker 2 (52:10):
Die, but just not try anymore.
Speaker 3 (52:13):
And I'm proud of myself for choosing to live. You
have to choose to live after.
Speaker 2 (52:19):
Something like this.
Speaker 3 (52:21):
You know.
Speaker 1 (52:22):
I hate to keep dropping these bombs on you, But
just yesterday, just yesterday, I interviewed an old friend of mine.
She's a death duela, you know, like you have a
birth duela. She's a death duelo. Yeah. Oh, the oldest
person in the world. She's just so cool.
Speaker 2 (52:34):
But I believe it.
Speaker 1 (52:35):
I sprang on her. I just spent like two years dying.
I had a hard thing. I was dying. I thought
it was gonna when I dwelled on death the only time.
I couldn't sleep at night. I couldn't breathe it. And
thank god, you know, I had a little procedure on
some medication. I'm great now. So I know what you're
talking about.
Speaker 2 (52:49):
Man.
Speaker 1 (52:50):
I lived on the thinking about death in the afternoon
and all for a long time. Yeah, I know you're
talking about that. Okay, But back to this situation here.
Did you notice any of the political the politicization of
the event. Were there p R groups and like PR
groups for the drug industry, the mental you know, anti
(53:13):
you know, and the gun industry and already did did
they all swoop in and trying to control the story.
Did you notice that?
Speaker 3 (53:21):
Yeah, I mean like and I I, as I mentioned,
was in a very particular religious group. I don't consider
my part of this religious group anymore. I think that
they very much co opted the story in a lot
of ways to.
Speaker 2 (53:38):
You know, with an agenda to tell the story of
you know.
Speaker 3 (53:43):
The miraculous and how God saves people and uses people
and chooses people.
Speaker 2 (53:48):
And and that type of thing.
Speaker 3 (53:51):
I think that, uh I I saw for sure, uh A,
I would say, rally towards trying to bring Christian values
in public spaces and using this as a means of
doing so.
Speaker 2 (54:10):
And back in you know, one.
Speaker 3 (54:12):
Of the efforts that I was a part of, I
don't agree with it now, but was to get ten
Commandments in schools, and that was there was an agenda
behind doing that.
Speaker 2 (54:23):
For sure.
Speaker 3 (54:24):
I spoke with you know, our country's leaders at the
time to get help make that happen. So yeah, I
would say that, I mean as as common in these
types of situations as they get co opted by certain
interest groups who want to use them.
Speaker 2 (54:41):
To meet their own agendas.
Speaker 3 (54:43):
And I was definitely, looking back in hindsight, used as
upon to do those things because I have a compelling
and powerful story, and I think part of where I'm
at now is reclaiming my story and using it in
the ways that I want to, and using it for
the agendas that I I want to and not allowing
(55:03):
myself to be exploited in any way.
Speaker 2 (55:08):
It's it's it's a very per but what was what's difficult.
Speaker 3 (55:13):
About Columbine is it's a very public tragedy that happened.
Speaker 2 (55:19):
Everybody knows.
Speaker 3 (55:20):
I can say to most people, even people that you
know we're young at the time. You know that I
was in the library during the Columbine shooting. Most people
had some sort of frame or reference for what that
means here in the US because of its place in
our history.
Speaker 2 (55:36):
It was a very personal experience for me, and so.
Speaker 3 (55:43):
It's my story is personal to me, and the trauma
that I face as a result is personal to me.
And so I want to be the one who is
calling the shots and driving.
Speaker 2 (55:56):
That car, not letting somebody else.
Speaker 3 (55:59):
Do it anymore.
Speaker 1 (56:00):
You know, if only you had gotten a patent on
bulletproof tank commandments, you could have you could have said
that right now you a billionaire. We have the next
Heidi Johnson. But Heidi Johnson Healing Water Waters or what
Healing Waters.
Speaker 3 (56:19):
Healingwas dot org. Yeah, it's the organization that I work for.
We're doing really good work around the world. I think
meeting a core need and you think about water and
how essential it is, it so much comes out of that,
and so being able to provide safe water to people
is going to change communities.
Speaker 2 (56:38):
Change lives forever.
Speaker 3 (56:40):
So I feel very fortunate to be able to be
a part of that movement.
Speaker 1 (56:45):
And how do you guys fund this Healingwater dot org.
It can't be. There's no profit involved in this, right,
there's not a lot of money making up for No.
Speaker 3 (56:51):
We're not yeah, yeah, I'm not doing this to get
rich by any means.
Speaker 2 (56:57):
No, we we rely on individuals who believe in are
cause and who can uh see the need.
Speaker 3 (57:07):
I think that it's hard here in the United States,
it's hard and maybe other Western countries to be able
to conceptualize the suffering the other people face. And I
think that it's such an easy thing when you're isolated
from that here to not care. Honestly, it's very easy
for people in our state, and I mean it's a
(57:28):
temptation for me as well to just care about me
and mine and even if that means me and my country.
And I feel though, like you know, with us being
the wealthiest country, most powerful country in the nation, that
we have a duty to help others, and having seen
(57:49):
this level of suffering firsthand, I I feel like it's
something that I am always encouraged by people who want
to help. And so we are supported by a group
of many people who have come alongside us to help
us provide these solutions.
Speaker 1 (58:09):
I tell you, if only we could bomb this water
into submission, we would have the problem solved overnight, all
the load of your good wife. Just drop bombs on this. Yes,
we'll come up with another plan. Or if we can
for us somebody to get them more than sell it
back to them right then then we'll get the promom
self that way too as well. Heidi Johnson, thank you
(58:31):
so much, and thank you so much for being flexible
with me about the schedule. And yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (58:34):
Apologize getting old.
Speaker 1 (58:38):
Heidi Johnson Healing Waters dot org. It's called Healing Waters
International and you can find her on Facebook at h
L Quartet c R T e Z.
Speaker 2 (58:49):
Thank you so much, Hiding Yes, thank you, wonderful to
talk to you.
Speaker 1 (58:53):
It really was, thank you very much.
Speaker 2 (58:55):
Yep, good bye bye
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