In the Name of the Children An FBI Agent’s Relentless Pursuit of the Nation’s Worst Predators

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
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up on operatoport dot com. Okay, here we go. We
got a great guest for you today. Jeffrey Reanick, former
FBI agents, worked on a ton of cases. The Kerry
Stainer case is one of the ones that has most

(02:26):
interest to me. But the Dugar case, the little girl
that was kept in that tenth foy, ten years, twelve years, whatever.
It was some kind of crazy situation at a good
old Jeff Rennick. The book is called In the Name
of the Children and FBI agents relentless pursuit of the
nation's worst predators. And Jeff Reinnick is the most patient

(02:48):
man in America. Okay, I gotta tell the audience, Jeff,
I gotta tell the audience, man. Jeff came on. We
tried to tape the other day and the internet kept
popping out. People are aware. We kept losing our internet
connect and Jeff was a saint. We rescheduled, and then
my internet wasn't even back up. I couldn't even contact
him to tell him I couldn't make the appointment. Okay,
I'm sending a message. I got Vic texting him from

(03:10):
a Lake Tahoe up there. Then when I screwed up
the scheduling yesterday, we screwed that up. But he's back today.
Jeff Reinick, in the Name of the Children, the most
patient man in the world. Jeff Rhinick, how are you.

Speaker 3 (03:22):
I'm fine, Thank you, thank you.

Speaker 4 (03:24):
Man. Hey, listen, I really appreciate it. As a matter
of fact, I've heard the voicemail I just left here.
I said, if I screwed up again, just shoot me. Okay,
no fourth chances for d Opferman tell the audience a
boy yourself who is Jeff Reinick.

Speaker 3 (03:38):
Well And I was born and raised in the Philadelphia
metropolitan area. My family moved out of Philadelphia proper to
a Montgomery County township called Cheltenham. I attended schools there
and then I went to college in Writing, Pennsylvania, at

(03:59):
a small college named Albright. I always wanted to be
an FBI agent, and after I graduated, I went to
work for the FBI as what they call a clerk
or a support employee, with the hope of becoming eligible
to apply for a position as a special agent. Six

(04:22):
months after I got there, the FBI stopped at and
what I did was I went back to school at
night full time and got the equivalent of a second
undergraduate degree in accounting, and then applied to be a
special agent accountant. And that's how I got into the FBI.
My first office was the Chicago Division, where I was

(04:46):
there for about two and a half years. After that,
I transferred to the New York office, which is in
twenty six zero Plaza in Manhattan. I was there for
eleven years. There I met my Lourie, and we're going
on thirty four years of marriage. We have two sons.

(05:07):
My older son is named Joe and he's a mechanical engineer.
My younger son, Jordan, is a police officer in the
area here, and then we ended up choosing to come
out to the Sacramento area to settle and raise our family.
As an FBI agent at the time I was there,

(05:30):
there's predominantly two paths of your career. One is to
do the management route, in which case you're moving every
two or three years. The other is to build up
enough seniority on the street that you could end up
living at a field office where you want to live
and bring out your family. And that's what we did.
And my wife, Lourie, is a fish and wildlife biologist

(05:53):
for the US Fish and Wildlife Service. She retired a
few months ago, and that's who we are. We're very happy.
We have a beautiful home and wonderful family. We have
our first grandson who's eight months old, and we're just
very content.

Speaker 4 (06:13):
I saw in somebody's notes and the press of materials
sent over that you are considered like an anti management
kind of guy, like it was hard to manage it.
What am I getting wrong there?

Speaker 3 (06:24):
No? Yeah, you know, that's an interesting point. Throughout my career,
I was I don't want to say difficult, but a
lot of times the goals and aspirations of the people
in management is to get their clock punch, so to speak,

(06:46):
and to move up to the next position. But those
of us that were on the street when we're working cases,
our goal is to solve the case, to do what
we were hired to do. Many times, in my instant
and because I have somewhat of a rebellious side to me,
I would disagree with management. Sometimes I did it more

(07:10):
in a greater sense than I should have, which was inappropriate,
and as a result, I was labeled as not management friendly.
I received several communications from our headquarters telling me I
was not management friendly and so you know, and occasionally

(07:31):
I would end up being removed from a case because
I disagreed how management was working the case.

Speaker 4 (07:37):
Well, you've been good to me. I'm going to put
a letter in your file, okay, telling how patient you've
been with me. But you said that even though.

Speaker 3 (07:44):
Your free story, I was in nineteen ninety three, I
was the case agent here in Sacramento for the case
it's known as Uniform right, and we had nineteen ninety three,
we had two bombs go off, one and Tibbering, California,
another one in New Haven, Connecticut. And that was an

(08:05):
example where the people in the career development program were
cycling through our office. It was troubling me greatly because
I felt that this was a case where someone had
been killed and we needed to do what we needed
to do. And so you know, I had disagreements with management.
The reason I'm telling you this is because when the

(08:26):
whole thing was over, I got warning the case. I
got one of these letters I called the letter of censure,
telling me that I was pretty much an asshole and
not management friendly. And then after the case, I got
a letter of commendation that was handed to me by
the director telling me what a great job I did. So,

(08:48):
in the tradition of old street agents, I took the
letter of the censure and the letter of commendation and
I framed them side by side and kept that by
my desk in the office.

Speaker 4 (09:02):
Well how did you want to handle that case differently?

Speaker 3 (09:07):
Well, you know that that's a long story. I don't
know if we have enough time to go into it.
I will say that eventually. Uh, I want to. And
I'd like to give acknowledgement to Max Nowell and Jim
Freeman and Terry Turchie, who were the primary three agents
who worked their case out of San Francisco. You know,

(09:28):
they need to be commended on the fact that you
know they did do what was necessary. And if you
read the accounts, you'll see that the FBI did some
things that were not normal for the FBI, such as
publishing Ted Kaczynski's manifesto things like that. The way I
get in trouble with management is because I want to
rush out and do stuff and I don't want to

(09:51):
stop until we're done. And a lot of times, you know,
this doesn't jive with making plans and making arrangements and
doing that. I like to act when you know when
the lead is high, and not lose it. And just
through the various disagreements, you know that's the way it went.

Speaker 4 (10:09):
Well, if you have that kind of personality, how are
you handling retirement now?

Speaker 3 (10:14):
Well, I'm still working in January twenty twelve, I was
summoned by a serial killer named Wesley Shermantine to come
visit him on death row at San Quentin Prison, and
when I took some other people with me and he

(10:35):
gave me the locations of several unrecovered victims that have
been murdered. And since that time, I've been active working
that case and trying to assist the people that are
actively pursuing this case. And I'm very proud to say
that in San Joaquin County, where most of this cases

(10:57):
is out of, they just elected a new sheriff named
Pat Witrow, and I have high hopes that he will
address the needs of the victims families because of my opinion,
that's what comes first.

Speaker 4 (11:09):
Okay, very very cool, very cool. I forgot to mention
you can meet Jeffrey Rennick at the Mystery Writer's Conference.
He's going to be on a panel there in San
Francisco at the end of September, so keep an eye
out for that. And we're going to have a link
to his book and the name of the children on
the Opperaman Report website in our bookstore, but you can
also get it over at the What Is this the

(11:30):
BenBella Books dot Com. You can catch it over there,
so I guess. So they say, in all the stuff
you sent over that to your most famous case, your
biggest case, I guess the monks' most proud of is
the Kerrie Stainer case. What the Yosemite killer they call him?
What can you tell us about that?

Speaker 3 (11:48):
Anything you want to know? I just I just would
like to say that, you know, I've worked a lot
of these cases, and it's important to note that one
case is not more important to me. One victim is
not more important than any other victim. What makes this

(12:09):
case different in my life is the attention and notoriety
I received because of the confession, which was considered to
have come without any forewarning. It was a surprise confession,
and at the time that Terry Stanner confessed, no one
was really looking at him for some of the murders

(12:29):
he confessed to.

Speaker 4 (12:31):
How did Carrie Stanner come on the radar for that?
You'd think that he would have been a suspect right away,
But how did he come on the radar for investigators
in the Yosemiti kill Why don't you first describe what
Thesemiti killers killings were? What that series of murders were,
and then we'll get into Carrie Stanner.

Speaker 3 (12:47):
Sure, And on February fifteenth, Valentine's Day weekend, Carol's son,
her daughter Julie, and their friend Sylvina Paloso traveled from
Eureka to San Francisco International Airport, where they rented a
car and went to the University of Pacific, which is

(13:09):
just south of Sacramento. They did that because Duly wanted
to explore the potential of the cheerleading program. She was
into cheerleading. And then after they visited the University of
Pacific or up, the three of them continued all on
down to El Portal, which is seven miles outside the

(13:32):
gate of Yosemite. They rented a room at Deceedar Lodge,
and at some point after February fifteenth, nineteen ninety nine,
they went missing. And subsequent to their disappearance, about a
week after they disappeared, an insert from Carol's wallet which

(13:56):
had her identifying information, is picked up at a busy
intersection in Modesto, and at this point it was believed
that something had happened, either by way of a car
accident or an assault. We don't know, but for that
while ad insert to have shown up where it did

(14:17):
was definitely out of the norm. And eventually the burned
out car was located about sixty miles from the Cedar
Lodge on March nineteenth. About a month later, in the
trunk of that vehicle where the burned bodies of Carol
Sun and Sylvina Paloso. About a week after that, the

(14:40):
body of Julie was located near at a place called
Don Pedro Reservoir. And at this point, you know, we
definitely have three victims. They've all been murdered. And for
us as investigators, I know you don't see it on
the TV shows, but we care. We care when these

(15:02):
things happen. We feel them ourselves by extension, and there
was a lot of effort put into working this case.
I had somewhat of a disagreement with my management again
and I was removed from this case as well. But
five months later, on July twenty one, nineteen ninety nine,

(15:24):
a naturalist in the employee of the Yosemite National Park
named Joey Armstrong went missing from her cabin which was
in a meadow on the park grounds, and it was
in a small town named Foresta, and it was immediately

(15:45):
noticeable that Foresta was very close to El Pratal, but
the FBI at that time stated that the disappearance of
the naturalist was unrelated to the homicides that had occurred
previous February. And when they started conducting investigation into the

(16:05):
disappearance of Joey, they were able to find a lot
or some pieces of evidence and there was also a
witness who saw Carrie Stainer coming out of the meadow
where Joey Armstrong's cabin was located, and from conducting investigation
at that point they developed Carrie Stainer as a suspect

(16:30):
in the Joey Armstrong case. He was picked up Thursday,
the twenty second of July and interrogated for five hours
by an FBI agent and a park service agent, but
did not admit to anything, and that night he was
released through an error in the county jail. And so

(16:55):
he was then located the following Saturday morning and I
along with two of my partners, were dispatched to make
contact with him where he was located at a nudist
colony named the Laguna del Soul, and it all flowed
from there.

Speaker 4 (17:11):
He lived at the nudist colony No, he didn't live there.

Speaker 3 (17:15):
He actually lived in the Theedar Lodge at Elpertal and
after he was released from the jail, he went back
to his room at the Theedar Lodge, sold off all
of his belongings that he could took the rest and
as we like to say, he was in the wind.

(17:36):
And there was a lot of publicity given trying to
locate him for contact, and from that publicity, the supervisor
caretaker at the Laguna del Soul observed him there and
he wasn't living there. He was simply visiting there, and
that's when they called into the FBI office in Sacremento

(18:00):
to advise he was there, and consequently we were sent
down and we requested that the Sacramento County Sheriffs go
with us.

Speaker 4 (18:10):
So when you go down there to the nudist colony,
what kind of description did you have, because he wasn't
wearing any clothes. If they didn't say what he was wearing,
kind of description did you have to spot him?

Speaker 3 (18:21):
Well, I don't know if you've ever seen the Pink
Pancer movies or the Shot in the Dark, the Peter Sellers,
I've seen.

Speaker 4 (18:27):
A couple of them shows.

Speaker 3 (18:31):
Who was the scene in a shot in the Dark
where Peter Sellers as Inspector Clusseau had to go into
a nudist colony, and what was really funny is that
even though he was a police officer, he was forced
to go in nude and he was carrying guitar around
to hide himself, and it was just, you know, it
was it was funny. It was really funny the movie.

(18:53):
It was one of the funnier scenes in the movie.
So naturally, as we were driving down to Laguna del Soul,
we were wondering if we were going to be allowed in.
We were actually bannering about it on the radio, saying, well,
you know, if they don't let us in with our
clothes on, do we still wear our guns around our waist?
And trying to paint that picture is beyond my ability.

(19:17):
But when we did get down to Laguna del Sol
and the manager was waiting for us, he did comment
pretty strongly that Krriy Stainer was in the restaurant on
the premises having breakfast and that he was fully clothed,
which he caused us to believe the fact that he

(19:38):
was clothed was an issue.

Speaker 4 (19:41):
Oh really that the manager was upset because he was
wearing clothes.

Speaker 3 (19:46):
Apparently. I don't know if you could say it was
upset or whether he was had a higher level of
attention because of it. He had seen the advertisements or
the news stories. He knew Kerrie standing was there, and
you know, he, like many people, when they get that
center of attention, he was quite animated. And he also

(20:09):
made it clear to us that Carrie wearing clothes in
the restaurant was not what he would consider to be
a normal thing.

Speaker 4 (20:16):
Right, that's fascinating, you think, I guess they have one
of those signs of the opposite, right, no shirt, no shoes,
no service, the other way around. Okay, we're with the
We're well, yeah, I wonder if they even sell those signs.
And we're with Jeffrey Reinick. Okay, And the Name of
the Children is the book and FBI agent's relentless pursuit
of the nation's worst predators would be right there. And

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I'm your host, Private investigator at Opperman. We're here today

(24:59):
with Jeffrey reformer FBI agent Jeffrey Reynnick in the Name
of the Children and FBI agent's relentless pursuit of the
nation's worst predators. He's telling us about Carrie Stainer, Thesemiti Killer,
who was the brother of Stephen Stainer. I know my
name is Stephen from that movie back in the eighties.
So what did you know about Carrie when you picked
him up there? Did you know about his history with

(25:20):
his brother in Olent?

Speaker 3 (25:22):
I knew about his brother Stephen. I knew that Stephen
had been abducted in nineteen seventy three by two offenders.
One of them was named Kenneth Parnell. He had been
held for seven years, and the offenders went out and
abducted another seven year old boy when Stephen was no

(25:47):
longer desirable to them. A couple of weeks after the
second boy was abducted, Stephen took him and walked out
to a close by Sheriff's stage, and when they asked
him what his name was, he said, I know, my
first name is Stephen, and Carrie Stainer is the older

(26:08):
brother of Stephen. That's pretty much all I knew. I
had been attending a conference at in Sacramento, and when
I stopped by the office on my way home, I
heard them talking about Carrie Stainer and mentioning who his
brother was. And that's pretty much all I knew.

Speaker 4 (26:26):
What about did you know about Carrie's previous brushes with
the law.

Speaker 3 (26:32):
No, I knew absolutely nothing about him. I had not
been involved in the investigation concerning Joey Armstrong, and I
also had not been involved in the investigation concerning Carol,
Juliet and Sylvina for several months. So when we were

(26:52):
sent down to the Laguna del Sol to pick him up,
we were advised that he was a witness or a
passd boyfriend who was running in fear, and that we
were just the most supposed to make contact with him.

Speaker 4 (27:08):
Okay, that's interesting, But your role in this operation was
to go down there and question him to be his interrogator.

Speaker 3 (27:14):
No, actually, myself, John Bowles and Kate hit Meyer. We
went down there simply to make contact with him and
to follow through with direction that we were getting from
the command post that was addressing the murder of Joey Armstrong.
We were not told to conduct any interviews or anything

(27:36):
other than to attempt to get his permission to be interviewed,
to see if he would be willing to come back
to our office in Sacramento to be interviewed. And also
they wanted to secure his vehicle so that they could
get a search for itt for it.

Speaker 4 (27:54):
So even though he was released on an er, he
still needed his permission to bring him back for questioning.

Speaker 3 (28:00):
Well, yeah, he's you know, in our country, you're innocent
until proven guilty, and especially in this instance, we had
no reason to suspect him to have any kind of
criminal intent. All we were told was that he was
a witness. So absolutely, this was not an arrest, This
was not a detention. It was simply a request by

(28:22):
us for him to come back to our office so
that he could be interviewed. And we did not expect
to be the ones that would be interviewing him. We
just thought we would be the delivery people. And when
we asked his permission to come back with us, he agreed,
and I told him that when he was done, I

(28:45):
would bring him back down to the Laguna del Sol
when he was finished up at the FBI office.

Speaker 4 (28:51):
And once again, though you said he was released on
an error, what charges was he being held on originally
that he was released.

Speaker 3 (28:56):
On when he was picked up Thursday? I believe, but
I don't know one hundred percent certainty that he was
picked up for being in possession of marijuana.

Speaker 4 (29:09):
Okay, all right, so then, okay, let's then what happens
next you're driving back? Does he talking to when you're
driving back? And what happens next?

Speaker 3 (29:17):
Yeah, Well, I at the time was driving a two
door vehicle, and even though we had no reason to
suspect him of anything, we were not arresting him. Just
for officer safety, we still handcuffed him behind his back

(29:38):
and put him in the passenger seat of my car
and belted him and was the seat belt for safety.
And John Bowles was following behind in his car and
we were taking him back to the Sacramento officer of
the FBI so that he could be interviewed. And when

(29:59):
we when we had his permission and we were in
the car, we finally got permission to head up to Sacramento.
I was totally lost where we were. It was. Carrie
Stainer gave me directions on how to get out of
there and the drive it was Route ninety nine. Our
drive Northland Route ninety nine to the office should have

(30:21):
been a forty five minute drive, but because of construction
and laying closures, the drive lasted for about ninety minutes.
And during that time I had asked Carrie previously if
I could ask him about his experience with his brother's abduction,

(30:42):
and he said that was okay. So while we were
in the car driving, I told him a little bit
about myself and the kind of cases I worked. I
told him that I worked cases similar to his brother's case.
I asked him if there was any thing that law
enforcement could do to have been better for his family's needs,

(31:06):
for his needs. And you know, he was somewhat emotional
because he commented that the people who took Stephen and
held them for seven years, they themselves were sentenced to
prison for seven years, which he believed was really unfair.
In addition to that, Stephen had been gone for seven

(31:29):
years and when he came back the country just assumed
that the family would live happily ever after. But that
was not the case because the Stephen that came back
was different than Stephen that had left. He had been
exposed to you know, alcohol, to drugs, to just all

(31:50):
kinds of things that were not really acceptable in the
family circles. And in addition to that, according to Carrie,
Stephen was living reckless life. And eventually, I think about
seven years after he got back, he was killed in
a traffic accident where it was believed that he had

(32:12):
contributed to the occurrence of the accident. And once again
Carrie was upset emotionally because the drivers the other vehicle
had fled the scene a hit and run where his
brother was killed, fled to Mexico. They extra gubted him
back to the United States, but when he came back,
they charged him with a misdemeanor and let him go.

(32:34):
So there was a lot of emotion in him. I
explained to him that I had resources that if they
could help his family, we could make arrangements to make
them available, counseling things like that that could help his mom,
his dad, and him and his sisters. You know, he's

(32:55):
grateful for that, and then most of the rest of
the time. We were just two guys in a car
driving stuck together on a Saturday, a beautiful Saturday, and
we were just making the most of it. I was
telling him that my wife likes to go camping all

(33:15):
the time because of her fish and wildlife background, and
for me, I don't like to go anywhere without air conditioning,
a bed, and a TV. So we laughed about that
during the ride back. He also, for me, was strikingly

(33:36):
similar to a character I had seen in the movies
when I was in college. The movie was called Billy Jack,
and it was the story of a native American who
had gone to Vietnam, been in Special Forces, received all
kinds of martial arts training, and when he came back
from the war, he came back to his town in

(33:59):
the south Southwest, which was corrupt with businessmen doing their thing.
And this was maybe one of the first movies where
martial arts was one of the themes in the movie,
and Billy Jack was using his prowess with martial arts

(34:20):
to defend and deal with the corruption that was affecting
the school of his girlfriend and then the people he
cared about. And he was an extremely handsome guy. He
always wore this remarkable black hat with a black T
shirt and jeans, and I asked him, did you ever

(34:43):
see Billy Jack? And he said no. And he was
so strikingly similar to Billy Jack that I asked him
several times on the ride and he kept saying no.
And as we were pulling into the office lot, the
parking lot which is an impound and it's secured, got
locking gates. As we were pulling in through the gate,

(35:03):
he looked at me and he recited verbatim one of
the premiere lines of dialogue from that movie, and you know,
I looked at him, he looked at me, and we
both started laughing. So apparently, you know, he had decided
that I had passed whatever, you know, thing he had
set out for me, and he shared it. And we

(35:24):
also talked about the cases that I worked, and that
told these cases take on me. Not to mention the families,
the other investigators, but we just were two guys in
a car having a pleasant conversation and you know, just
going to the office. One of the things that I

(35:45):
tried to stress to him was it was my experience
with victim families that you know, for me, the idea
of the term closure doesn't mean that everything goes away
and you're fine. I liken it to a scar over
a bad wound, and that scar is always there as

(36:07):
a reminder. Sometimes the scar bothers you worse than other times.
But in my opinion, closure was the ability to get
through the traumatic event and pick up your life to
whatever degree you can and move on. And so we
talked about that concept concept of closure.

Speaker 4 (36:28):
Hey, do do you remember what the line was from
Billy Jack that he said, Well, to the best of.

Speaker 3 (36:33):
My memory, ed there, Billy Jack was standing in a
park in town, and I think the last name of
the antagonist was Posner, I forget his first name. And
they're standing there and Postmanners threatening Billy Jack, and Billy

(36:53):
Jack says to him, you know what, I'm going to
take my right foot and I'm going to hit you
up side your head and there's not a thing that
you can do about it, after which he does this
big roundhouse kick and knocks posing her down this kick,

(37:14):
and then you know the fighter is on from there.
And that was the line that he recited to me,
which is a big line from the Boot.

Speaker 4 (37:21):
Yeah, I remember that I was in high school. Now
that was before high school. And when that movie came out,
I had another guy stunt. I think the the the
actor was Tom Laughlin and Billy Jacks. Yes, yeah, Tom
Laughlin was was a neighbor of O. J. Simpson and
Nicole Simpson and when they would have their fights and
the police would come, Tom Laughlin would go over there

(37:42):
and he would be the one breaking up the fights.
He would be over there, yeah, acting as the what
do you call the mediator, trying to negotiate a settlement
to their their fights over there.

Speaker 3 (37:51):
Yeah. Yeah, I think I think. You know, when you
hear on the radio the one hit Wonders, I think
that Billy Jack was almost like a one hit wonder.
It was definitely a sleeper, and uh, I think it was.
You know, it was like one of these movies started
some type of a following and uh and I know
they did subsequent movies, but you know, even Billy jacketself

(38:15):
wasn't that great, and the following movies were even worse,
so I don't think it lasted burn along.

Speaker 4 (38:20):
Yeah, the sequels were horrible, but Billy Jack was a
great movie. It was a cult film, like you said,
at the time, had a usually is.

Speaker 3 (38:26):
So exciting for me when I meet someone else who
has seen that movie.

Speaker 4 (38:29):
Oh no, you're kidding me. We were all doing those kicks,
and it was because Junior High. We all we all
went and bought those boots maral kick at each other
like lunatics.

Speaker 3 (38:39):
I was wearing jeans with my black T shirt, like
you know, walking round and then you know, just what
he would do was just what he would do. Yeah,
it was funny.

Speaker 4 (38:46):
Yeah, and I was in the Bronx, so imagine stuck
out time.

Speaker 3 (38:50):
I did not want to heard a New York accent
in your voice.

Speaker 4 (38:53):
Yeah, well I used to have a New York accent.
I lost it anyway. What with Kerry Stanard? Do you
think maybe if you hadn't had that long ride with
him to sit down and talk and just shoot the
crap with him, that he wouldn't have confessed to you
later on?

Speaker 3 (39:06):
You know, I believe that it contributed. I think that
the time we spent together gave him an opportunity to
assess me, judge me, to determine whether I would be
of help to him with what only he knew he

(39:28):
had to do. We didn't have any idea when I
was being cross examined in the trial, and the defense
attorney was priding me frequently about the fact that institutionally
there was enough information to be able to arrest him.
I didn't know any of this, So I remember that

(39:53):
during the break the media were like screaming, you know,
how could he not have known? How could he not
have known? Which is very frustrating me because I didn't
know because I wasn't told, and the whole time I
was with him, I had never been told anything. The
only thing I actually knew after that day was his
version of the crimes that had taken place. I really

(40:15):
didn't even know what had taken place, according to the investigation.

Speaker 4 (40:22):
Now, during that ride, did he talk to you about
the death of his uncle or because the uncle was
shot to death in his apartment?

Speaker 3 (40:30):
Right, Yeah, we didn't talk about it there. But when
we got to the office and we were once again
told that he was either a witness or like an
old boyfriend fleeing out of fear, we had no idea

(40:52):
what we could interview him about. And what you learned
as an old agent, which I was, is that when
you don't know what to do the interview about the
best thing to do is call in the polygrapher, because
the interview is the platform which the test is done.
So John and I decided we would call in our

(41:15):
office polygrapher, a guy named Harry Sweeney, who is just
beyond anything to describe in terms of how great he is.
And we also I also took the initiative of ordering
a pizza for us because none of us had eaten
and we had taken Carrie from his breakfast. So basically

(41:40):
that's really all we knew. So when the first thing
we did is we asked him to sign what's called
an advisive rights form to acknowledge that his discussions with
us were okay and that he knew his rights. And then,
because we didn't know what to ask him about, we
simply did a biographical interview. And it was during that

(42:01):
interview that he told us about his uncle being murdered
and that the Mercede County Sheriff's Apartment was investigating it.
And because cold cases is one of the things we did,
I told him, you know, maybe we could look into that.
But I never ever suggested to him the idea that

(42:23):
he was the one who killed his uncle, because it
doesn't take a brain surgeon to realize if he started
choosing him of murderers, he's not going to want to
talk to you anymore.

Speaker 4 (42:33):
Do you suspect he murdered his uncle?

Speaker 3 (42:37):
Well, I don't know if what I know is accurate,
but what I know, what I thought I knew at
the time was that his uncle was killed by shotgun
and that Carrie was the last one to have seen him.
And I believe that when Carrie started talking to me
about what he had done, he mentioned that his uncle

(43:00):
had molested him. I believed it to be that uncle
that was murdered. So, you know, you have that suspicion,
But at a time like that, that's not what we
were there about. And he had initiated the contact with me,
and so I didn't ask him about his.

Speaker 4 (43:22):
Uncle, okay. And later on he did say though, that
his uncle had malsted him. Now, now, what about when
he was seven years old? No, when he was when
Steven was seven years old, the same time Stephen was
being abducted, at the time when he was being molested
by the uncle. Now, now what about did he mention
all the history of his family that he had a
very bizarre family, right, A lot of sexual I think

(43:43):
even the father was a creepy guy to talk about
sex to other people and stuff.

Speaker 3 (43:48):
No, he I think I should say that. After we
did the biographical interview and had asked for the polygrapher
to come in in the pizza to come in, they
both arrived at the same time, and my partner, John
Bowles came in to where we were and said, Hey,

(44:09):
the pizzas here, the polygraphers here. What do you want
to do first? And at that point Carrie I said, well,
I want to skip the polygraph and I want to
speak to Jeff alone. So at that point we took
him back to the original room we were interviewing him
in and I went out to see my other partner,
Kent Hitmeyer, who was the acting supervisor, and asked him

(44:33):
for guidance, and hit Man said, just you know, go
in and see what he wants. And when I walked
into the room, he was sitting in his chair, he
had his head in his hands, he was kind of
looking off into the corner. I walk in. I said,
you know what's up? And he said, you know, I'm
a bad person. I've done really bad things. I've just

(44:58):
I don't you know. He just Will was describing himself
in very negative, detrimental terms, and I said to him
something that I believe and I say to others, and
that is the good people do bad things all the time.
It doesn't necessarily mean that person is a bad person.

(45:20):
What's important is to understand why a good person would
do a bad thing, and that's what I explained to him.
We needed to go, and he told me that. Through
several more minutes of talking to him, and I was
exiting the room to see Ken Hitmayer to get guidance

(45:42):
from him, and eventually what came out of this is
that he said he could give us closure about the
case we were there, which was Joey Armstrong. And at
the time I didn't know Joey's name, And he also
said there was more. I didn't know what he meant

(46:03):
by that. I was suspecting, like you're bringing up that
it might have been his uncle that he wanted to
talk about. And when I finally asked him, you know
what do you mean by more? He kept saying you
know more, And just out of desperation trying to think
of something, I asked him, do you mean the three

(46:23):
women in Yosemite? And he didn't verbally acknowledge, but he
kind of nodded his head, and that's what he said. Now.
At that time, that was a little hard for us
to accept because the FBI had announced in the media
that two other suspects were in custody for although they
were in custody for other charges, that they were the

(46:44):
ones responsible for the murders in Yosemite. And I said
to him, there have been plenty of contenders for the throne,
but there's nothing here to prove that you're the one.
But I went out and I advised Hitman what he
was saying, and hit Me had sent me back in
one more time just to try and clarify everything. And

(47:06):
when I went back in, carry said, before he does anything,
he wanted to see pictures of little girls, which he
knew we would have in our evidence because of the
crimes we worked, which was child pornography and the resulting assaults.

(47:26):
I asked him if he meant child pornography, but he
would not say the word. So I told him that
I did not have the authority to grant that to him.
And I told Ken, you know what he was saying,
that he wanted to confess to Joey armstrong son Pealoso,
but he wanted to do it in exchange for seeing

(47:48):
child pornography. So what hit Me had decided was that
we would move the interview up to the polygraph room.
And at the time, I wasn't real happy about doing
recorded interviews, and so they had to adapt the room
next door of the observation room so that they could

(48:10):
record the audio and the video of the interview. So
they moved Kirie and I up there. Shortly after we
got there, John came up with the pizza, and I
asked John to stay because we're friends. I feel that
I work better when I'm with other people. Contrary to

(48:32):
what you see in the movies and the TV shows.
You know, you don't automatically know what you're doing. You
don't have a sense of calmness, you don't want to
mess anything up, you don't want to say the wrong thing.
And I always think that, and especially with John Bowles,
he's really really bright that including John in the interview

(48:54):
would be a good thing, and so he stayed and
the rest of the interview, which was six hours long.
You know, we all we did together.

Speaker 4 (49:05):
When I'm sure that you've never had a subject or
a suspect asked for child pornography before.

Speaker 3 (49:13):
That's correct.

Speaker 4 (49:14):
So now were you able to keep a poker face?
Did you? Because I don't know if I could do that.
I mean, I think it would be suddenly so disgusted
and lose all respect for this guy that I was
just kind of getting along with, you know, even if
he did kill his uncle or whatever. You know, I
would just like lose our respect for him. Were able
to keep a poker face about.

Speaker 3 (49:28):
That, well, I wouldn't say it's a poker face ed
because from working so many of these cases, I had
come to the personal belief that many of these offenders,
if not most of these offenders, have themselves experienced some
type of victimization in their early years. I also believe that, uh,

(49:54):
there's a doctor Robert Hare, who wrote a book called
Without Conscience, which is dedicated to to explaining the idea
that some people do not have the capacity to feel
emotion in an instance like that those people are the
ones that can pass polygraphs when they're guilty and things
like that. He Carrious Danner did not strike me that way,

(50:17):
and so I just believed that there was something in
his background that we needed to talk about. One of
the things he had said to me when we were
in the room was that at twelve years of age,
he had been molested by his uncle. And he also
said that throughout his life he had never been able

(50:39):
to be functional with a woman, and this was something
that bothered him greatly. So when he talked about wanting
to see child pornography, I believed that it was probably
resulting from what happened to him when he was molested.

Speaker 4 (50:58):
And there was something else two in the notes about
that when he was a child he would fantasize about
murdering and raping women.

Speaker 3 (51:05):
Yes, he would say that sometimes he could envision world
peace and other times he felt like he could kill
everyone in the world.

Speaker 4 (51:18):
When he was asking for the child porn, was he shameful?
Was he embarrassed he was asking for this? How did
he even get the words out?

Speaker 3 (51:25):
Well, that's interesting. It's a great question that because he
didn't ask for child porn, right he asked for pictures
of young girls. And when I said to him child pornography,
he would not say the word pornography, And I took
that to believe that he was ashamed of what he

(51:45):
was asking for but that what he wanted was something
he wanted more that had greater value to him than
the degree of shame he would feel.

Speaker 4 (51:56):
Okay, we only have a couple of minutes before the break.
There was something else in these notes about common information bias.
Does that come into plane now or is that something
we should tackle after the break?

Speaker 3 (52:06):
I'm not sure what confirmation bias is.

Speaker 4 (52:09):
Okay, So I can find in your notes something about
where is this you talk about confirmation bias, especially when
gross to the seventy murders. What is it and why
do you call? How can it infect investigations? Question?

Speaker 3 (52:23):
Oh? Yeah, I think what you're referring to is when
investigators have a preconceived idea of things about the case,
and a lot of times that will cause people to
look to confirm information they think I have they have,
and not go further to try and work against that

(52:46):
information to see if it is in fact confirmable. And
in this case, when you talk about confirmation bias, I
think that would apply to the other two suspects dikes
in Larwick.

Speaker 4 (52:59):
Yeah, because side there was two other suspects in custody,
but there was a whole group of people that were suspects, right,
and what happened to them? Did Kerrie ever implicate them
or totally they were off the.

Speaker 3 (53:09):
Hook in our time together. And in his confession he
said he did not know them at all, and he
never indicated any knowledge of even associating with them or
who they were, where they'd been. The reason that they
were being looked at is because Michael or I'm sorry,

(53:32):
Eugene Dykes, whose nickname was Rufus, he was given a
polygraph in prison which we all got to observe, and
he failed that polygraph and the polygraph examiner it wasn't
Harry I forget, It was a California Department of Justice examiner,
a good guy, and his responses were such that, well,

(53:59):
if I had done or this is how it would
have gone down. It was something that would be very
easy to mistake for a confession, and at the time
we all believed it might be a confession. And this
is why the intense investigation on Dykes and Larwik and
they were associated with a group of people that their

(54:20):
way of making money was going around and doing identity fraud.
They would intercept mail from the state, for instance, with
driver's licenses. They would open them up, get the information,
the copies, whatever. Then they would reseal the letter and
put it back in the box so the person who
had it wouldn't know that it compromise the same thing
with credit cards. And so they caused the suspicion that

(54:47):
the victims might have become victims because they wanted to
do financial.

Speaker 4 (54:53):
Fraud and you were able to find something that disproved
that they were involved us well.

Speaker 3 (55:05):
No, Actually, at the time that Carrie Stainer confessed, they
were still the main focus of the task force of
the FBI office, And it wasn't until Carrie Stainer confessed
and that we recovered the evidence that he was talking
about in his confession that it was pretty clear that

(55:26):
he was not that he was the one. And I
think it's important to note that I was asked several
times afterwords if Stainer would have committed these crimes in
the presence of Dykes and Larwick, or if they had
been together had an association, And my answer then is
my answer today, I don't believe. And I've never seen

(55:47):
an instance where an offender who is sexually dysfunctional will
do a sexual offense in the presence of other men.
Just imagine because it's depicted in movies and on TV
that when a man is unable to perform in sexual duties,

(56:10):
it's humiliating, it's embarrassing. You know, many times they're looked
down upon because of it. You're not going to find
a guy going out and committing offenses like this in
the presence of men who probably have a too much testosterone.
And Carrie Daaner said in his interview that he did

(56:31):
not know these two guys, had never met them, seen him,
or was aware of them other than what he saw
on the news. And I believe that. Okay.

Speaker 4 (56:40):
Well with the Jeffrey Reinick, former FBI agent, The book
is called in the Name of the Children and FBI Agents,
Relentless Pursuit of the Nation's Worst Predators. He'll be on
a panel, the Mystery Writer's Panel in San Francisco with
the end of September. I can get a cup of
his book at the Opperman Report bookstore and also on
Amazon dot com and his publisher you can get over
there too quick. Flny ben Bella Books, Ben Bella Books

(57:06):
and Movie. Right back with more of Jeffrey Reinnick, Right
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(01:01:32):
Opperman Report. I'm your host, Private investigator Ed Opperman. We're
here today with Jeff Reinick, a former FBI agent, is
author of the book In the Name of the Children
and FBI Agent's relentless pursuit of the nation's worst predators.
We've been mostly talking about the Carrie Stainer case. By
the way, you can get ahold of a Jeff. You
could find him at the Mystery Writer's Conference in San

(01:01:54):
Francisco at the end of September, so keep an eye
out for that. Also, his book is available at this
website over here, BenBella books dot com. But also too,
there's a link in the Opperman Report bookstore. We've been
talking mostly about the Stainer case. Fascinating. Stanner was the brother,
the older brother of this. I know my name is Steven,

(01:02:15):
I know my first name is Stephen from that movie
and even another bizarre thing with that, but the guy
who wrote that book about Steven Stannard, he wound up
in jail on some kind of public decency charges. It's like,
what a tragedy, this whole bunch. But then he's telling
us about how Carrie Stanner's asking for chop pornography. He
wants to see pictures of little girls that he believes

(01:02:37):
they have in their evidence. Fascinating. Now, when you're talking
to Carrie, how does he well, First, first of all,
how long was the actual confession interview, that portion of
the interview, how many how much time did you spend
with a mayor?

Speaker 3 (01:02:54):
The professional acted for a little over six hours?

Speaker 4 (01:02:59):
Six hours And that's after the whole long drive and
all that other stuff, and the Pietz and the polygraph
all that stuff, So you spend six hours with them
getting a confession out.

Speaker 3 (01:03:08):
Yeah, you know, it's very important. At least I'm kind
of known for these confessions, and I'm also known for
taking a long time, because it's important to know as
much as you can about what happened so that you
can provide that information to a prosecutor who then turns

(01:03:32):
it into charges in prosecution. And in that regard, what
I like to do with my interviews is first to
have the offender in this case, Carrie explained to me
what he did in his own words as a narrative.
He did that for both cases. Then we go back

(01:03:52):
and this time with questions for me. We go through
it from the perspective of what he observed, he felt,
what he was trying to do. Then we go back
again and I want him to tell me what he
observed from the victim, how he perceived the victims actions, statements, behavior,

(01:04:17):
And then finally we go back and I'm standing. You know,
if I was standing in the room with you there,
what would I see? And I tried very hard to
get as much as you can. I will tell you
that as hard as you try and do that, I'm

(01:04:38):
not sure that if in any interview I've done that,
I've absolutely gotten everything there is. As an example, the
final thing I like to do in my interviews is
ask the offender to write a letter of apology to
the victim. And Carrie, which was a little surprising to me, me,

(01:05:00):
refused to write a letter to any of the victims
except for Julie sunt. He believed that she loved him
and he loved her, and he wrote his letter to her.
And it's in these letters that's been my experience where
you'll find something that you might have missed or it

(01:05:23):
did not come out during the interview.

Speaker 4 (01:05:27):
And can you give us an example of something like
that in a sasence.

Speaker 3 (01:05:34):
You know, I'd like to give you an example of
something that was shocking from a different instance. I was
working an abducted child. Well it was actually not an
abducted child. A child fell to her death in West Sacramento.
I was working with the West Sacramento Police Department along
with a bunch of other FBI guys, and this was
an accidental death where a little girl fell down a

(01:05:56):
right silo. But friends who were with her and knew
this were afraid to report it for fear of the
trouble they would all get in, so they reported it
as an abduction, and I did not do the interview.
There was a fellow, a detective from what Sacramento named

(01:06:17):
Martha Barbosa, was doing the interview of one of the friends,
and in his letter of apology, he drew himself hanging
from a rope. And it was a unbelievable realization of
how this child felt about himself and what had happened,

(01:06:39):
and it was something we did not pick up on
in our contacts with him. That's an example.

Speaker 4 (01:06:47):
You mentioned before that Stayner felt he had a relationship
with son Son. Did he have a prior relationship with
her before the abduction?

Speaker 3 (01:06:56):
Absolutely not, Carrie Stainer. It's my opinion, and sometimes people
judge me over this, but they're welcome to It's my
opinion that Carrie Steiner's goal, the thing he was trying
to obtain from his crimes, was to have intimacy with

(01:07:17):
another person. And he describes his assault on Julie. He
is certain to include and exclaim the parts where he
believed Julie was cooperating with him and Julie was doing

(01:07:38):
everything she could that he requested from her. In one instance,
he described that he left her in the car alone
and she could have gotten out and run away, but
she didn't. And when he was driving with her in
the car, he describes that he was having conversation with her.

(01:08:02):
I believe that in his mind he wanted to believe
that there was a relationship developing between him and Julie's son.

Speaker 4 (01:08:13):
That's heartbreaking. This kid never had a chance, you know,
has brought up in that family and all this stuff.
Did he ever have a normal social relationship with a woman?

Speaker 3 (01:08:25):
It's a great question. And during the confession he said
that he had a normal relationship with the woman who
was his original intended victim, her and her two daughters.
And after this was over, I got to meet her
because I wanted to know for myself whether he did

(01:08:48):
and as I suspected, she very pointedly said that he
was unable to have a sexual relationship with her.

Speaker 4 (01:09:01):
Okay, boy, now, and this in these murders, how did
he target his victims? What made him choose these particular victims.

Speaker 3 (01:09:12):
Carrie during his confession said that all his life he's
had you know, these thoughts and what I believe about
offenders like Carrie and other people is that they develop
in their mind and heart a fantasy of what they
would like to see or be a part of. And

(01:09:36):
in Carrie's case, I believe his fantasy was that he
wanted to have a relationship with two like twelve peri
pubescent girls, realizing they would have a guardian. His fantasy
included killing the guardian so there'd be no interferen what

(01:10:00):
he was doing, and then having sexual relations with the girls,
the girls having sexual relations with each other, and then
after everything was finished, realizing that he couldn't go further,
his fantasy was to kill the two girls.

Speaker 4 (01:10:21):
And how did you come to that conclusion? This is
what do you described to you?

Speaker 3 (01:10:25):
Yes, yes, and I had been attending for years these
law enforcement meetings that were put on by the California
Department of Corrections Paroles. I worked with a lot of
people in California Paroles, most notably Susan Kane, and I

(01:10:50):
was invited to go to these law enforcement meetings, which
were the third Thursday of every month, where sex offenders
were being released on parole, and as a condition of
their parole, they had to agree to sit in a
room with law enforcement officers and to answer any question

(01:11:11):
they were asked. The goal of this was to help
us as law enforcement understand how these people run, what
makes them do what they do. And from attending those meetings,
I believed and expected that he would have a fantasy.
I believed and expected that he would have put a

(01:11:32):
kick together to carry out his fantasy at a moment's notice,
which he did. And then when you know, for instance,
if I were to win the lottery, I would dream
about paying off my bills and what I would you know,
think about it in terms like you're dreaming. But in

(01:11:55):
my opinion, with sets offenders, their fantasies are down to
the most extreme minute detail, and this is what they
lived in their minds day in and day out. And
at some point. What makes Curious the Inner unique is
that he committed to make his fantasy real. And after

(01:12:18):
he made that commitment in his mind, he started preparing
by watching the Discovery Channel, the Learning Channel, trying to
get as much information as he could about how law
enforcement conducts their investigations. And in his instance, he learned
how to misrepresent his goals when he was taking custody

(01:12:43):
of his victims so they would be compliant with his
instructions and so he prepared for over a year, and
because he was working at the Cedar Lodge, he had
the opportunity to observe of all the incoming guests. During
the interview, he said that he had been watching in

(01:13:06):
one of the rooms and he knew the exact room
that there were four girls and they were not eligible
for him to go after because he saw that there
was a man with them and that would not work. Ironically,
we learned in court that the man had left and

(01:13:26):
those girls were alone on the night he committed his crimes. Then,
so he had been watching the incoming visitors and assessing them.
At the same time, he was dating a woman that
lived close by who had two daughters and was the
perfect fantasy victim, and on Valentine's Day of nineteen ninety nine,

(01:13:54):
he was actually at her house with the intention of
carrying out his fantasy on his girlfriend and her two daughters.
But there was a neighbor who stopped in and that
kind of upset his plans. But he was riled up.
He was pretty fired up because he had committee. He
was going to see this through. So when he got

(01:14:15):
back to Cedar Lodge, he wanted to take a chacuzzie,
but the jacuzie was dirty. He serviced the pool in jacuzie.
But then he went for a walk in the parking lot.
And when he did that, and he walked past the
building where Carol and the girls were, that's he could
see in through the curtain. There was a little crack

(01:14:36):
in the curtain he could see in. And this is
what he had been waiting for, an adult with two girls.
And he went back to his room, got his kit,
and then came back to their room to find a
way to gain entry in to carry out the rest
of his fantasy.

Speaker 4 (01:14:56):
A couple of questions, what was in the kit?

Speaker 3 (01:15:01):
Well, depending on the purpose of the kit, different things
will be in there. In his kit, I believe he
had rope, duct tape, a knife, he had a twenty
two revolver, all the things you would need to do
what he wanted to do to tie people up to you,

(01:15:22):
to kill them or threaten them. And he actually, when
he went back to his room, put on a military
type sweater.

Speaker 4 (01:15:34):
Did he tell you why he did that sweater?

Speaker 3 (01:15:37):
Well, it was all part of his plan. He wanted
to not stand out or be visible where Carol and
the girls were staying in the five hundred building. At
that time of the year. It was very secluded because
the building was far away from the main office. The
weather was cold and misty, the visibility was less than

(01:15:57):
it could have been. And so when he went out
out to that five hundred building and he saw them,
he was able to do pretty much what he wanted.
And to give you an example of how he planned
and research and how smart he was, that when he
went back to address Carol and the girls, before he

(01:16:20):
went up to their room, he knocked and entered all
of the surrounding rooms. He had the master key, so
he was able to knock make it sound like he
was being let in. He would walk through the room
and then he would come out and he would be

(01:16:40):
simulating conversation. When I asked him why he did that,
he said he wanted to desensitize them so that when
the knock came on their door, it wouldn't be a
shock or a surprise. And he said eventually he got
down to their room, knocked on the door and announced

(01:17:03):
that he was with the lodge and that they were
looking for a water leak and he needed to get
in the room to look for the water leak, and
he believed that since he had done this in all
the surrounding rooms, it wouldn't have come as that out
of the ordinary for them. Carol, to her credit, refused

(01:17:25):
to let him in. She said, absolutely not, you're not
coming in and closed the door. He knocked a second
time and asked the second time, and the second time
Carol again closed the door on him. He was frustrated.
He was trying to think of what he could do
and from his preparations about how people think and react whatever,

(01:17:50):
he knocked a third time, and this time when Carol
opened the door, he said, Okay, we're not going to
come in, but we need to pack up all your
things and we're going to move you to another room
so that we can come in and look for the leak.
Now he knew that they were laying in bed because

(01:18:11):
he gets see through the curtain. They were watching a movie.
They were watching the movie Jerry Maguire that they had rented,
and he knew the last thing in the world they
wanted to do was has to get dressed, pack up
and relocate. So at this point Carol let him in
the room. Now there's a lot of controversy over how

(01:18:32):
he was able to gain control over Carol and the girls.
And what he did was he went into the bathroom
and make he pretended that he was looking for a
water league, but what he was really doing when he
was in there was he got the revolver out of
his bag, and when he came back out into the

(01:18:54):
room where Carol and the girls were, he had his
revolver pointed at them. And once he had the revolver
pointed out at them, of course they were scared and
they were complying with what he was telling them to do.
And he also said to them, I have no money,
I need your car. Just cooperate with me and it'll

(01:19:16):
be fine and I'll leave. And he did this deliberately
because he knew if he told them what he was
really there for, they wouldn't comply, they would fight back.
And so he learned that to gain control was not
only a physical thing but also a mental thing. And
because of having the gun on them, then Carol and

(01:19:39):
the girls did as they were told. Now, some people
find it hard to accept that Carol would have let
him in the room and then he could have gotten
control over them, But consider a bank robbery, for instance,
where a guy alone will walk in with a gun
and control a whole bank full of people. So Carol

(01:20:01):
did what she was supposed to do when the guns
pointed at her, not only for her own welfare, but
for the welfare of the girls. After he gained control
of them, he tied them up. He took the two
girls in the bathroom, and then once they were out
of sight and earshot, he killed Carol by strangling her.

(01:20:25):
When she was dead, he carried her out to their
rental car and wasn't seen again because of the limited
visibility and how secluded the building was. And he put
Carol in the back of the car, which was a
nineteen ninety nine Pontiac Grand Prix, and he said that
when he got her in the back, he kind of

(01:20:46):
pushed her up. And I asked him, you know, why
did you push her up like that, and he said,
because I knew there'd be more. So after he had
Carol in the car, he went back to the room.
He brought the girls out of the bathroom, he cut
off their clothing and began trying to initiate sexual behavior.

(01:21:09):
Julie complied Sylvina did not on Sylvina's part whether it
was because she didn't understand the language that well or
she was not going to comply. But also present with
Sylvina was that she was having her monthly period, and
this was what Carrie Stainer terms as a turnoff to him.

(01:21:32):
So he then took Sylvina into the bathroom, into the bathtub,
and once again strangled her to death. He then came
out into the room with Julie, and he describes that
they began having sex, but it wasn't sex like you

(01:21:55):
and I would think of sex with our wives or
significant other. It was she was complying with him. He
was telling her what to do, and he was trying
very hard to become sexually functional. Because of Julie's compliance,
he was making progress in what he was trying to do,

(01:22:16):
and he convinced himself that Julie was cooperating with him
because she cared about him. And they spent several hours
in the room with that, and then Julie had to
go to the bathroom, and he said he couldn't take
her in the bathroom of that room because her friend

(01:22:37):
was dead in the bathtub, So he used the master
keys and took her to the room next door, and
while she was there, he then went back to the
room five or nine and got Sylvena's body and put
it back into the pontiac. And then while Julie was
going to the bathroom, he also instructed her to shave

(01:23:01):
her a pubic area, because remember, he wants a young girl,
and he wants to simulate the appearance of a child's genitals.
And I'm going shares with you, Ed, I'm not. This
is just a personal thing on my part, but I

(01:23:21):
believe if you look at the age that the offender
was a victim, it will give you the preferred age
of the victims that the offender prefers. So, for instance,
I had a case where a boy was six years
old and assaulted repeatedly by men, and when he became

(01:23:46):
an old enough to experience sexual motivation, his preferred age
was six years older in that area. And so I
believe that if you look at the age that the
offender is victimized, it will give you a pointer to
the preferred age that the offender wants. I think that

(01:24:08):
the victimization stops an emotional clock or some type of
a mental you know, a brain clock that goes towards development,
either in sexual you know, desires. I just think it
stops the It stops the victim from maturing sexually.

Speaker 4 (01:24:31):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:24:31):
That's why you'll see You'll see like in the news.
You can see like, you know, forty year old men.
How can a forty year old man go out with
a thirteen year old girl? And I think that's okay.
But that guy in his mind sees himself at that
age when he's with the girl.

Speaker 4 (01:24:49):
Is my opinion, makes sense. It makes a lot of sense.
You can look at Michael Jackson. It's his excuse, you know,
I feel like I'm a kid, you know, and he's
always wonder if the kids the same age. It's a good
time to take a break. This is really really fascinating
stuff with Jeff Reinick. You can catch them at the
Mystery Writer's panel in San Francisco in September. Now, the

(01:25:11):
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Speaker 4 (01:29:45):
Okay, welcome back to the Opperman Report. I'm your host,
private investigator Ed Opperman. We're here with the retired FBI
agent Jeff Reinick. In the name of the Children, we're
talking about the Kerry Stainer case. So, Jeff, we left
off he had Julie and was still in the room.
He had just molested her and raped her. Then what
comes up next? I guess he kills her next, right.

Speaker 3 (01:30:07):
Well, No, what he does is he takes Julie back
to the room that they were originally in and he
continues this sexual interaction with her, but he realizes that
it's getting late. It's getting you know, to be for

(01:30:29):
I'm thinking three four in the morning, maybe a little later.
And he knows that he can't stay there with her,
and he's got two bodies in the car outside, so
he takes a pink blanket from one of the beds
in the room, wraps it around Julie because she's naked,
and takes her out to the car. He then, also,

(01:30:56):
while Julie was in the other room, he took that
opportunity to pack up the luggage and clothing from all
the women and put that in the car and make
it look as if they had left as a normal
course of their activity. He then leaves the five hundred

(01:31:17):
building and drives to the main office, where he returns
the master keys to their place that they're supposed to
be in. Julie was in the passenger seat of the Pontiac,
and he likes to take this opportunity to say that
she didn't run, she didn't get out or do anything,

(01:31:38):
and he wants to believe that that means she wants
to be with him. But I think for we all
need to realize Julie was heroic. She didn't know where
her mom or girlfriend were. She was complying with him
as a way of trying to get through this, not
only for herself, but for them. He then leaves the

(01:32:01):
Cedar Lodge and he drives west till he comes to
a route called forty nine where he heads north with
Julie in the car. And he says that as they're driving,
he's making conversation with Julie, just ironically, as I was
having conversation in the car with him. That's what he

(01:32:22):
was doing with Julie in the car. And according to him,
he learned from the news that everything Julie had told
him was untrue. She had the ability, the coolness of mind,
and courage to not tell him anything that was truthful

(01:32:44):
about herself, her mom, or her friend. He told her
that he told him that her name was Sarah. And
we have this confirmed because when he did drop off
the car and burned it. Before he burned the car,
he scratched into the hood. We have Sarah. The hood

(01:33:04):
was sent to the FBI laboratory metallurgists who were able
to retrieve what was scratched into the hood of the vehicle.
But we go back he's driving north on forty nine.
He's trying to figure out what he could do. He
actually says that he thinks about wanting to keep Julie,

(01:33:25):
but he knows he can't. He comes to a place
called Bagbee, which is a fishing spot, and he stops
in there to get water. And we actually have a
surveillance video from the local surveillance camera showing a car
pulling in at six am in the morning, and the

(01:33:46):
reenactment of that with a Grand Prix matches exactly, so
we believe that the surveillance video is actually Carrie Steener
driving the Grand Prix with Julie in the passenger seat.
He then drives up to this place called Don Pedro Parks,
and he says he carries Julie to a spot on

(01:34:08):
the hill overlooking the reservoir. When I asked him, you know,
how did you carry her because she's barefoot, she's naked.
He shows me, but then says, you know, like a
husband carries a bride, and he walks her out to
this spot. He spreads out the blanket. Now it's it's

(01:34:28):
got to be forty degrees out there, and she's naked.
She cannot she's not comfortable. She's not having a good time.

Speaker 9 (01:34:35):
But you want to believe that he wants us to
believe that he is, that she's with him, because she
wants to be that that they're together, much like a
boyfriend and girlfriend. And ironically he says he's he's on

(01:34:57):
the blanket making love.

Speaker 3 (01:35:00):
As he calls it with Julie. He's telling her that
he loves her and he wants to be with her.
And as they're there, he sees that the sun is
starting to come up, and he realizes that he has
to kill her, so he kind of stands her up
on her knees and he comes in from behind and

(01:35:25):
he cuts her throat. In my opinion, he's not experienced
at this because the cut was not even sufficient to
cause death. And in her pain, she motions to him
with her hand that a gun. She wants him to
shoot her because of the paint, and he said he

(01:35:48):
had no bullets in the gun. And therefore he steps
forward again with the knife, and this time he slashes
again and more efficiently and effectively. He waits there as
she dies, after which he takes her down to the

(01:36:08):
brush and covers her over with brush, and then he
actually says he stays there and marbles at the beautiful
scene of the sun coming up down peter A Reservoir.
He then takes the car and he looks for someplace
to dispose of the car and the bodies in the back.

(01:36:30):
He takes all the clothes and luggage and everything off
of the bodies from the car, and he throws a
lot of it away, and then he proceeds up Route
forty nine further till he gets to a town called Sonora,
and there he starts heading east again, which takes him

(01:36:50):
to a higher elevation toward the Sierra Nevada, and eventually
comes to a spot off the road where he pulls
the car in and leaves it there. He has two
hundred dollars that he took from Carrol's wallet. He uses
that money to get back to the Cedar Lodge. He
comes back a couple of days later in his personal car,

(01:37:12):
which was an International Scout, and he spread scales all
through the car and then lights it on fire. And
he says that it was frightening for him because as
the car was burning, the wires for the horn shorted
out and the horn went off. Also, the fire itself

(01:37:36):
was determined to have burned twenty five feet over the car,
reaching the trees above the car, and the fire itself
reached a temperature of a two thousand degrees, which basically
took everything that was left in that car and made
it into this one common molten pool of of things.

(01:38:02):
And then he says he drove away. He took some
of the personal items of Carol and the girls, and
he drove through Modesto and threw a bunch of it
out in Modesto. And that gives us cause to believe
that's how the wallet ended up in Modesto.

Speaker 4 (01:38:25):
Well, let me ask you this, though he disposed that
he's got her car. I think what you called it
was a not a money carlo or.

Speaker 3 (01:38:31):
What grand prix? Grand Prix?

Speaker 4 (01:38:35):
Right, So he has her and the Grand Prix and
he's destroying the Grand Pee. How did he get to
and from that scene with the Grand Prix but his own?
At one point he had to be walking or taking
a cab or something.

Speaker 3 (01:38:45):
Yes, that's exactly what he did. When he parked the
Grand Prix, he had two hundred dollars from Carol. He
used that two hundred dollars to get a cab. He
had missed the last bus that was heading back to
the Yosemite Lodge, so he used two hundred dollars and
hired a cab. The cabby did not claim the ride
because she was hoping to get all two hundred dollars.

(01:39:06):
But when the FBI put out a quarry on the
radio for the cabin to come forward, he immediately came forward,
and that's how he got back to the lodge that night.
Did he drop the grand Prix off and was able
to get his own card to come back a couple
of days later and do the burning.

Speaker 4 (01:39:24):
Now was he concerned about getting caught at all?

Speaker 10 (01:39:26):
After doing this, he once again we come to the
point where he had been preparing for what he was
going to do.

Speaker 3 (01:39:36):
He had read up on trace evidence in evidence collection,
and he was shaving all the hair off his body
so that if he was asked for samples of his hair,
there would be none to take and he would represent
himself as not having hair, and he was hoping that

(01:39:59):
would him from being considered. In addition to that, after
about three weeks, Julie's body still had not been located
and recovered, so he once again went back to Medesto
he got a hold of a He bought an envelope
and paper. Because he'd been watching on the TV, he

(01:40:22):
knew what indented writing is, which is, you know, if
you're writing something the page below, what you're writing is
going to have indentations from what you had written on
the page above. So he actually created indented writing for
us to find, which would cause us to believe that
the offender was Hispanic. He had put down a shopping

(01:40:45):
list of Hispanic foods, he used Hispanic names in drawing
a hard and then he went to Medesto. He found
what he considered to be a Hispanic boy coming out
of a restaurant. Told the boy that he needed the
boy saliva because he didn't want to be pointed out

(01:41:10):
in a paternity test for DNA, and paid the boy
five dollars for the boy to spit into a cup.
He then used the boy saliva and sealed the envelope
that had inside of it a letter with the map
and directions to the location of Julie. And on the

(01:41:32):
top of that letter he wrote the words we had
fun with this one because he wanted the investigators to
believe it was more than one person. He then sent
the letter, and that was how Julie's body was located.

Speaker 4 (01:41:47):
So the body would not have been found had he
not sent this letter with a map to where it was.

Speaker 3 (01:41:54):
That's possible, right, had he not sent the letter. The
letter was the direct reason at the bar he was located.
I have no idea of even guessing how long it
would have been out there if he hadn't sent a letter.
I think that's one of those things we're never going
to know.

Speaker 4 (01:42:12):
How long does he go before he commits this murder
of Joey Armstrong.

Speaker 3 (01:42:17):
He finished, he finished his the murders of Carol, Julie,
and Sylvena, probably around February sixteenth or seventeenth, maybe even
a little later. And then he was in the park

(01:42:41):
and he was looking in the small town of Foresta,
where Joey lived, for what he had believed to be Bigfoot.
He believes he saw bigfoot in the area of Foresta,
and he was up there looking for bigfoot. But he
saw Joey going in and out of her house in
up her truck, which was a I think it was

(01:43:03):
a Toyota Tacoma, and from a distance, she appeared to
be something he'd be interested in, and he says, he
did some research. You and I call that stalking. And
he went back to his truck to get his kit,
which she always had with him, and then he made
contact with Joey and when she turned her back on him,

(01:43:26):
he pulled out the revolver once again. Now this occurred
on July twenty first, so we're about five months after
when he committed the first crime. And he once again
told Joey, I'm just here to take money. I'm desperate.

(01:43:47):
Just cooperate with me and I'll be gone. And he
walked her into the cabin where she lived, took her
to a back bedroom, and then started tying her up.
And when he did that, Joey knew that it was
not right. That you know, this was not what he
represented it to be. And so she then started resisting

(01:44:09):
and fighting back, and in his words, he says, she
was quite wired, meaning she was very strong, very good
at fighting back. He explained that he was actually concerned
about losing control of her, but eventually he prevailed. He
duct taped her up so she couldn't move her hands.

(01:44:33):
He also duct taped her mouth. He took her out
to his International Scout that was parked in front of
Joey's cabin and put her in the back. And when
he did that, he started driving off. And the next
thing he knew, because Joey was so remarkable that she

(01:45:00):
was actually able to launch herself from the back seat
out the passenger window. She hit the ground and got
up started running while she's tied, while her hands are
tied behind her back. In the duct tape of her mouth,
Carrie says it. He stops the truck and he chases

(01:45:21):
her down, but he still cannot get control over her.
So he describes once again that he gets his knife
and he cuts her throat, but once again it cut
his ineffective and he has to take a second cut,
and this time he can tell, because he can see

(01:45:43):
the interior parts of her neck, that this second cut
will kill her. And he held her while she died.
Then after she died, he went back and parked his truck,
then came back and got Joey's body and took it
to a nearby stream. And then he describes, for reasons

(01:46:05):
he doesn't understand or can't delineate, that he beheaded her.
He cut her head off. I asked him why he
did this, and he said, well, you know, it was
just like a job. I just was into it, so
I did it. And I said to him, you know,
I'm an FBI agent, but if they didn't pay me
to be an FBI agent, I'm not going to be

(01:46:26):
an FBI agent. So I believe you got some benefit
out of cutting her head off, and a lot of
people have different theories about that. I'm not going to
try and you know, go into that. But then after
he cut her head off, he took her body and
pushed it along the side of the creek and covered

(01:46:49):
it with weeds. But he took her head. He took
it into the water, and he cleaned the blood off
her face. He grew ruined her hair, almost as if
he was trying to make her appear alive. And then
he said he just spent time with the head. Once again,

(01:47:11):
people have their own theories about what he did with
the head. But then when it was time for him
to leave, he said that he first placed the head
in the stream so that it looked like she was
simply laying there on her back, but then, because he
realized people would be looking for her, he then turned
her head over so that you couldn't see her features.

(01:47:34):
He said that he went back and got rid of
the knife and the duct taping used to bind her.
And what caused him become a suspect is as he
was driving out of the canyon where the metal was,
he had a flat tire and a park employee helped

(01:47:56):
him or assisted in getting help for his flat tie.
And that's how they were able to place him in
the area of Joey's cabin because.

Speaker 4 (01:48:08):
The park employee wrote down his license plate or something.
Excuse me, the park employee wrote down his license plate
number or something or knew him. Is that what happened?

Speaker 3 (01:48:16):
Well, the park employee and you know, I think they
somehow knew his name, knew who he was, so they
didn't I mean, there was no doubt who he was,
but of course they didn't associate it at the time
with having anything to do with Joey. But when they
came back to investigate and they saw that he's coming

(01:48:36):
out of there the same day that she goes missing,
that's when they start investigating Carrie Steiner and they develop,
you know, information that leads to the conclusion that that
he's the guy.

Speaker 4 (01:48:51):
Is there any evidence that he was stalking other victims
besides this too.

Speaker 3 (01:48:56):
He says that, you know, his girlfriend and her two
daughter were his originally intended victims. In my opinion, he
was always looking for an opportunity. That's what these people do.
They're always looking for that opportunity. And I've been told
that before from the Laguna del Saul he was going

(01:49:20):
to be heading up the Sacramento to commit more murders.

Speaker 4 (01:49:25):
Did he have people picked out? H he was just
going at a scout.

Speaker 3 (01:49:29):
You know, I really I don't know that much. After
Carrie Standard confessed, I really didn't know that much about
what was going on in the actual investigation. The only
thing I knew for sure was what he had told me.

Speaker 4 (01:49:43):
What about any indications of necrophilia, that he was having
sex with the dead bodies or anything like that.

Speaker 3 (01:49:49):
Well, bear in mind that he's not capable of gaining
an erection, So you know, it's an opinion as to
what he was doing with the or even the head
for that matter.

Speaker 4 (01:50:04):
Now do you find it odd that his first victim
he chose a group of three women, Like, wouldn't it
be more logical that he would start off with one
that would be more easier to handle.

Speaker 3 (01:50:15):
Well, that would be you know, that's something based on logic,
But these guys have fantasies, and these fantasies are not
based on logic. The vision on imagery and his fantasy,
which we established at the beginning of the interview, was
to have two girls approximately twelve years old, and that
they would have a guardian. It wasn't a question of
the logic of whether he should start like a beginner

(01:50:37):
and work his way up. It was an issue that
when he saw them, they fit his fantasy and that
you know, clicked off the switch that had him go
on to do what he did.

Speaker 4 (01:50:50):
Have you been in touch with Carrie since his conviction.

Speaker 3 (01:50:54):
Well, ironically, I started out with this as the case agent,
and then at a point during the case, because I
was at odds with some of the management decisions, I
was removed from the case and I really didn't have

(01:51:14):
much information. But in two thousand and four or five,
I forget which it was, the case was reassigned back
to me and I took the opportunity to find I
don't want to say disposed. I resolved all of the

(01:51:36):
evidence issues. I arranged with the Mariposa Sheriff's Department to
get a hold of the car and have hit destroyed
so no one could be trying to buy it on
the internet. All the things that weren't needed as evidence
for his appeal process were destroyed.

Speaker 4 (01:52:00):
But have you spoken to Cary since he's been in prison.

Speaker 3 (01:52:04):
Yes, I have, in the process of resolving his cars
in that and you know, I got to tell you
that the night, the day and night that Carrie confessed,
one of the things I promised him is that I
would go down and prepare his family for what was
coming and the next morning, or I should say, that

(01:52:25):
night when I got home, you know, everything seemed a
little surreal for us, and my wife and I stayed
up and tried to come up with how do we
tell these people what's going to happen to their only
remaining son. And so I went down very early the
next morning, and I spent several hours with the Stainers,

(01:52:47):
telling them what had happened and what was going on.
And by doing that, I think they believed that I
was a good person, and so I have. I had
been in touch with the Stainers. And then when I
was trying to resolve Carrie's vehicles so that no one
else could get them and put them on these sites,

(01:53:09):
I had to talk to Carrie from prison to get
his permission to destroy the cars and to get titles
to them, and that's when I talked to him. His
defense attorney causes him to believe that everything I did
with him was a manipulation and that I wasn't sincere

(01:53:30):
and it was all about manipulating him into the confession.
I was not. That's not who I am, that's not
what I did. It bothers me that he thinks that,
But I have no recourse. There's nothing I can do
about that.

Speaker 4 (01:53:47):
And you said there was a trial, so ultimately he
played not guilty and they tried to have a confession
thrown out.

Speaker 3 (01:53:52):
No, they were Actually there was a political struggle a
little bit between the United States Department of Justice Janet
you know, and the local attorney general, the California state
attorney general. And what happened was the Feds wanted to

(01:54:18):
prosecute first because they felt they could get the death
penalty and that the death penalty would be done much
quicker than the state's death penalty. But Joey's mother, Leslie,
who is an amazing woman, does not believe in the

(01:54:39):
death penalty, and because of that, federally, Carrie was allowed
to plead guilty to what he had done. He received
the federal sentence of life without the possibility of approval,
and ironically, when he stood in federal court to account
for what he had done, a lot of what he

(01:55:00):
had said was what he had written in the letter
that I had asked him to write to Julie. And
then after that he was transferred to the state custody
and the state Attorney General's office through a prosecutor name
George Williamson, Mike Canzanieri and Kim from Mariposa County, they

(01:55:21):
prosecuted him for special circumstance and he ended up getting
the death penalty from the state. Is currently on death
row awaiting, you know, going through his final appeals before execution.

Speaker 4 (01:55:39):
Jeff, we're at a time I got to tell you though,
Jeff Rennick Reinick, this is one of my favorite shows. Okay,
I really enjoyed this, and this is really really great.
The way told the story is excellent, and the name
of the children an FBI agents relentless pursuit of the
nation's worst predators. I'd like to have you back because
I know there's a lot more in this book than
just the stainer came real quick like in two minutes,

(01:56:02):
Can you give us an idea of what because I
know there's a lot too in there about PTSD and
how to deal with Trump, and there's a lot of
stuff in his book how it affected his family. There's
a lot of stuff in his book. Can you give
us real quick like in the next minute and a
half two minutes, what else we can find in the book?

Speaker 3 (01:56:17):
Well, what you'll find in the book. What The book
started out to honor my family at their request to
leave something behind, and when they saw what I had written,
that's where the process of it turning into a book,
you know, the book was, I'm agreeing to the book
to honor my family, and I want people to understand

(01:56:39):
that the other there's other cases of children being killed
in heinous ways, But most importantly, I think is to
understand what these cases did to me and what that
costs for my family and the realization that I'm alive
today talking to you, not a victim of a suicide,
because of my wife Lori and my sons, and the

(01:57:03):
realization that life is worth living to be with them.

Speaker 4 (01:57:08):
Jeff Reinick, I can't thank you enough again, especially with
all the problems we had with the technical stuff and
the scheduling this stuff. I can't think it of it.
I'd like to have you back right away to talk
about the rest of the book and again all this
stuff we talked about, the PTSD stuff, how it affected
your family and all this as soon as we can. Okay,
thank you so much.

Speaker 3 (01:57:24):
Okay, thank you, thank you.

Speaker 4 (01:57:27):
So they had Jeff Reinick. The book is called In
the Name of the Children, An FBI agents relentless pursuit
of the nation's worst predators. We had. We've done a
couple of other shows on this that I could go
on for another two hours of this guy. You know,
I really enjoyed this show. A lot of details about
this case. We've done two other shows with this Stephen
sans Ai. We did depending two hours with him, who

(01:57:49):
was a bail bondsman who was chasing down one of
the people involved in this case. And also to a
woman too who believes sincerely that she was being stalked
by Steiner and and and these other characters. Since area
has a whole group these other people that were arrested
and held and suspects that it was a lot more
than just stainer. A lot went on in this case.

(01:58:09):
Let let's just say that I'm gonna have to go
back and listen to the first two shows again and
then I maybe I'll have Jeff back. And by the
way too, there is a lot more in this book.
We only touched on the very one topic. The standardcase
is only one topic in this book, the dougurt case.
He was involved in that little girl who was holding
a tent there. It was like a unibomber. This guy

(01:58:30):
was involved in a lot of stuff. Jeffrey Reinick, thank
you so much. Hey, by the way too, you know
I'm gonna do I have a little twenty minute interview
with Jeffrey Reynick. I'm gonna put it up in the
member sections. It's the woman that was aborted because we
had so much technical information, technical difficulties. But I'll throw
it up in the member section, a little twenty minute,
thirty minutes in the member section. If you'll like the show,
that's where we have additional content, additional shows in the

(01:58:53):
member section at Oppermanreport dot com. If you want a discount.
I know a lot of people in their memberships are
running out because a lot of people signed up this
time last year. You contact me directly at Oppermanreport at
gmail dot com and I'll hook you up with a discount.
I'll give you one thirteen months for sixty dollars. So
you can email me at Opermanreport at gmail dot com

(01:59:16):
Oppermanreport at gmail dot com, and I'll give you a discount. Otherwise,
you go straight through the website Opermanreport dot com. You
can sign up there seventy four for a year, or
twenty dollars for three months, or six dollars for a month.
Thank you so much, jeff Reinick and the name of
the children excellent storyteller. I'm glad that we had those
problems because this year we really spent a lot of
time more on the standard case than we would have

(01:59:38):
had time for in the first two interviews. So thank
you so much, Jeffrey

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In the Name of the Children An FBI Agent’s Relentless Pursuit of the Nation’s Worst Predators

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