October 17, 2025 • 57 mins
Circuit Judge Michael Randazzo is preparing to add “author” to his long list of accomplishments. His debut book, Presiding Over Shadows: From Chaos to Order in the Court, is scheduled for release on September 16, 2025.Randazzo’s journey to the bench has been marked by resilience and achievement. A first-generation college graduate, he earned degrees in Criminology and Criminal Justice from the University of Missouri–St. Louis, completing the Pierre Laclede Honors College program before obtaining his Juris Doctorate from Saint Louis University School of Law in 2010.By 2015, Randazzo was running his own law firm and was named to The National Trial Lawyers’ Top 50 Under 40. His career as a prosecutor included more than 3,000 felony cases and 10,000 misdemeanors before he was elected Circuit Judge. In 2021, he was appointed to Missouri’s 42nd Judicial Circuit and, within a year, became one of the youngest presiding circuit judges in state history. To date, he has participated in more than 75 jury trials.Blending memoir and true crime, Randazzo’s forthcoming book delves into the challenges and contradictions of his life. “I have Italian roots that trace back to the Sicilian Mafia, including Al Capone’s Chicago Outfit and the St. Louis Mafia,” Randazzo said. “The book details some crimes and victimization of my family members. It’s about my family’s history and how it made my path to the bench almost impossible. Even more specifically, it deals with my relationship with my grandfather, who was my hero, despite him being a deeply flawed man.”TwitterFacebookUnterrified Democrat
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
It's the Opperman Report and now here is investigator in
at Opperman.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Okay, welcome to the Opperman Report. I'm your host, private investigator,
Ed Opperman. You can find me at Opperman Investigations and
Digital Friends and Consulting if you reach out to me
through my email Opperman Investigations at gmail dot com. We
have today, we have a sitting judge. Michael Randazzo is
a sitting judge in Missouri right now and he's written
(00:31):
this book. This guy's had some incredible life man presiding
over Shadows from Chaos to Order in the Court. Michael Randazzo.
You can find him on Instagram at Randazzole Law and
Twitter at randazzol Law. But on Facebook he's just Michael Randazzo.
And if you want to meet him in person. October
eighteenth in Bizmarck, Missouri at the Bismarck Coffee Company, there
(00:56):
is going to be signing books and put people in jail.
I guess I sent people to judge Michael Randazza. Are
you there? I am, hey man, this is so exciting.
Before we get into the book, Presiding Overshadows from cast
to Order in the Court, tell us about yourself. Who
is judge Michael Rendezzo.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Well, I'm judge Michael Randazzo, and by all odds, I
never should have been.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
I've had a.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Really eventful life, starting from a berth that was unexpected,
or at least a pregnancy that was unexpected, and a
burst that was premature, and got to spend the first
month or so of my life in the nick U
when I was delivered. My obgu I n who was
(01:45):
supposed to deliver me was on vacation, and so a
veterinarian actually delivered me at the hospital, got delivered and
spent some time and nick you was told, are my
parents told? I wasn't told, but my parents were told
to prepare for the worst, that I was touch and
go many times, and that they would have a special
needs child their whole life. I would be behind developmentally,
(02:07):
both physically and mentally, and the struggles continued from there.
My circumstances when I was released from the hospital were
just as bleak. We were essentially homeless, living in a
very very neat conditions, no running water, no plumbing, and
(02:29):
just scrapping me get by. No one in my family
had ever graduated high school, and I was sort of
the burden at that point and life kind of progressed
and I somehow through a lot of work. I think
(02:49):
my mother turned out to be at least a somewhat
normal child and had a lot of struggle throughout my
childhood as well. But way before my life started, there
were lots of struggles in my family. They always seemed
to run a foul of the law, and I kind
of started taking that trajectory whenever I was a teenager,
(03:10):
I got in a lot of fights, sort to find
myself getting into trouble, got kicked out of school a
couple of times, and almost quit high school, but for
the help of a very persistent teacher. She just wouldn't
let me give up.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
I would have quit, and I.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Found my way through high school, went to college, and
during college I just continue to excel academically. Went to
law school, graduated law school, and have returned to practice
in the area that I grew up in. I've never
lived any more than fifteen minutes from where I live
(03:53):
right now in my entire life. I commuted both to
undergrad into law school and bactice law here in rural
Missouri for fifteen years or so, and in twenty twenty one,
I was elected as circuit judge for Division two of the
forty second Judicial Circuit. And so that's kind of me
(04:14):
in a nutshell. I live here with my family. I
have three kids, Jacob, Joey, and Gracie, and my wife Amanda,
and heavily involved in local sports, youth sports. I've coached
about twenty seasons of different youth sports and I still
coach my daughter's softball team today. And I really will
(04:34):
say that in my life, I.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Coached my dad as a basketball How old is your
daughter a softball?
Speaker 1 (04:40):
So she's fifteen right now. It's a sixteen year old
softball team. So's she's kind of in that age where's
she's really really forming her own identity. And it's much
less coaching and much much more me kind of just
enjoying being on a field with her.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Yeah, that is the most fun. And the best part
is after every play they all fixed their hair.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
They're very worried about looks.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Yeah, but it's so rewarding, man, that kid stuff. Well,
let me ask you a question, because now you said
to what you were delivered by a veterinarian, and I
was wondering, I said, where the hell could this be?
But it was in rural Missouri.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
What year was that, nineteen eighty four, jo a young guy. Yeah,
I just turned forty one. Yeah, I was actually sort
of historically young for the bench. I became the presiding
judge for our circuit. So the judges in a circuit
in Missouri, they elect a judge to be sort of
(05:39):
the judge in charge of all the judges, who does
all the administrative stuff. It's kind of like the HR
Department for the judges. I got elected to that position
about about a year after I took the bench, making me,
and what we believe in our research, the youngest presiding
judge in the history of Missouri's judiciary, so historically young.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Yes, then, okay, you were delivered by a veterinarian. But
it says that your family was excommunicated from the Sicilian
mafia in Missouri.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Yes, yes, so that story is sort of how the
book opens. And my great grandfather, Joseph frand Azo actually
Giuseppe was his actual real name. He was deeply involved
in the Saint Louis mafia, with connections to the Chicago.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
Outfit, you know, back to al Capone.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
And the most notorious of them. I had a great
uncle who I'm named after, Mike Benigno, who was also
deeply involved.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
In the Saint Louis outfit are the.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Saint Louis Mafia in Chicago outfit, and then also went
and became sort of the head of the Miami syndicate
after he served in prison time and h didn't give
anybody up. But when that happened, when my great uncle
went to prison, my grandfather decided that he had had
enough and they worked on a way to sort of
(07:11):
get out, and that didn't happen. Still, as far as
I know, the only case that I know of that
someone was actually allowed to get out alive. But when
he was excommunicated, it was a true excommunication. He was
not even able to have contact with his brother in law, Mike,
who was still in and so he when he was
cut off, he was cut off entirely. Didn't speak about it.
(07:32):
Wasn't supposed to say anything to anyone about anything that
ever happened. And I'm sort of breaking that trust, I
think here today. But I think for far enough removed
from it that I'm okay speaking about it.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Well, it seems like nowadays everybody's talking, yapping away. Man,
you got these guys with their podcast. Yeah, who are
these guys? You know what's going on?
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Yeah, and it's just a different world. Huh. No.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
But do you have like organized crime or mafia in Mark, Missouri?
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Now, I would say no.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
There are some stories in the book about some of
the things that actually my own father did involving organized crimes,
some connections to the actual drug cartels out of Mexico.
And and that's even closer in time, you know, to me,
stuff that I was alive and got to see firsthand.
(08:24):
And and those things existed in Bismarck, you know, here
in rural Missouri town of twelve hundred people.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Wow, yeah, that is a small town. Yeah, but yeah,
it's totally different now after the eighties. I was smuggling
marijuana back in the eighties in my old days from
Mexico that you know. But now it's all cartel stuff.
It's just so rigidly controlled. It's just a whole different
ball game. So I could see how they would have
their their tentacles reaching in there to this little town
(08:54):
in Missouri. What kind of cases do you do? You try?
You don't try, you're not on the bench. Actually you're
just supervised.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
No, no, no, I'm on the bench too, so that
being the presiding judge. When I was doing that, that
also was an additional responsibility. I had to keep my
normal case loads, so it didn't obviate any responsibility I had.
I just got elected to do.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
The extra stuff.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
And so I'm a circuit judge here in Missouri. I
handle felony cases once they get to a circuit court level,
after they've had a preliminary hearing or if there's been
a grand jury indictment, and so the worst of the worst,
all the way to murder. First, that are you know,
capital cases where capital punishment could could actually be imposed.
(09:40):
And then I handle civil cases, domestic cases involving divorces, adoptions,
and eternity cases. And then I also handle civil cases
where their tortue claims and the amount request that is
(10:01):
over twenty five thousand dollars. So really the things that
people think of the most serious, the most litigious type stuff,
that's what I get to do.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
And then what about when you were practice in law,
what kind of lad did your practice?
Speaker 1 (10:15):
So I had a couple of different phases of my career. Initially,
right out of law school, I was a public defender,
I got a ton of experience trying cases there, but
I also ran into an experience that I had a
young child at home, and with my young kid at home,
I just couldn't continue to represent criminal offendents in the
way that I could and be true to them and
also be true to my family. And that was a
(10:37):
huge change and a huge pill for me to swallow,
because I only thought I would ever be a defense attorney.
That's the reason I went to law school. That's what
I wanted to to do. And in practice, once I
had a family and you had young children at home,
kind of came to this realization that this isn't for me,
and so I had to make a career switch. And
(10:57):
so I career switch wise. I went from being a
defense attorney to being a prosecuting attorney, and I prosecuted
cases for about ten years two separate venues. I was
the head elected prosecutor in Reynolds County, Missouri for about
six years. And then when at the end of that
(11:18):
term of my term of service, the judge whose position
I took, he decided he was not going to run
to re election, and I decided to run. And coming
from the smallest county in our circuit with the smallest population.
It was an uphill battle. There were five people that
ran in that election, and I won the election with
a plurality, not a majority. I got about thirty six
(11:41):
percent of the vote and was elected and have served
as a circuit judge ever since.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
So a small town like that, small town politics, like,
isn't there like a club? And if you're coming out
of this poor family, how did you your rise your
way to the top of this situation.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
So that's been the struggle of my life. I mean
that that is literally one of the reasons why I
this book was so important to me, Like I needed
to make sure that people understood the struggles that existed
both in my life, but to sort of cleanse my
children from that sort of ancestral mark of Cain that.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
Was associated with us.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
And and I knew that that was my obligation to
do that if I was in a position to do that.
And so the real way it worked is really getting
ostracized and just proving every step along the way that
I had some words, that I had some value, and
that I was not what people thought my family was.
(12:44):
And in lots of ways I'm not sure I've ever
changed people's minds, but yeah, to be to be honest
and transparent.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
The book is as honest as I.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Can be about my life, about what I've known and
what has happened to me, and also sort of this
shield of protection around my children so they don't have
to go through what I went through because it was
a real struggle. And when I say real struggle, I
volunteered to serve as the city attorney, city prosecutor, city judge,
all three of those positions for the city of Bismarck,
(13:20):
where I grew up, where I lived for free, literally
charged them nothing for my legal services to try to
give back, to try to build some good will with
the community, and they would not accept the offer. So
that really kind of gives you sort of the dynamic
I was dealing with now. Professionally, I felt a lot
of victims, and I think I've done enough good will
(13:43):
sort of not specifically in the city of Bismarck, but
regionally that some of that or most of that taint
is gone.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
That's fascinating. But you know, I'm tempted to ask this question,
how much do you think that is that do your
own I don't want to call like a chip on
your shoulder, but your own like you don't feel good enough,
you know what I mean, Because I can't imagine people
look at you and see you're a judge and they
don't have the utmost respect for you and your accomplishments
and stuff. How much of that is in your head?
(14:17):
And how much is that in reality?
Speaker 1 (14:20):
So I think, to be honest, part of it is
just me battling sort of these demons that exist within me.
I mean, I would acknowledge that and agree with that.
Part of it is true, like during my upbringing, I
was denied chances, denied really opportunities that I think should
have been given to me because of what I came from,
(14:41):
not because of who I was. And part of that,
like I said, part of that certainly is an internal struggle,
but lots of external influence on that as well.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
It must feel great knowing that your daughter, how many
kids you got?
Speaker 1 (14:57):
I have three?
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Yeah, well, hear your kids? You know that they don't
have to worry. You know, their dad's a judge, man.
You know, they have all the respect in the world,
you know what I mean. They don't have to go
through what you did.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Man.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
You know it's a different world for them than it
was for me. I will one hundred percent acknowledge that,
and that's that's part of the point. That was part
of the reason. Then that still is truly my reason
for being and doing there. They are completely my motivation
and everything that I do.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Well, give us an idea, what did you come from me?
So you mentioned hearing the book about your father was
a Mexican cartels who still has an opiate addition to
this day.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
He does. So my mother was and there's some very
graphic details about what happened in her life, but when
she was young, she was sexually molested by multiple men,
including one time she was admitted to a mental hospital
and she was sexually molested by one of the people.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
Who worked in the hospital itself.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
She attempts to a side she had an addiction problem.
My my father during that period of time, you know,
into his teens, he had this proclivity for violence, and
he lived sort of outside the really the controls of anyone. Uh.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
He got into.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Fights and he actually seriously injured some people.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
He was brought on.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
Some charges and was only only released based upon his
own mental state. And so there's a lot of mental struggle.
There's a lot of actual physical struggle that's in my
very close past, you know, my mother and my father,
but going back, each generation has brought with it its
own trauma throughout my history. My as I said, my
(16:51):
great grandfather Joe, he was Italian mafia, the Sicilian mafia,
and he had those own struggles like that. My grandfather
always wanted to be a gangster, like he literally even
on his deathbed, who my grandfather, Nick, Joe's son. He
(17:14):
was my hero, still is to this day. But he
was a very flawed man as well. He ran at
a used car lot. He was a car salesman, and
that business is very exploitative by itself. It's you know,
people that are buying used cars like that, They're coming
there looking for something and you're you're selling them sort
(17:37):
of some hope that their position can get better with this,
you know, this used car that you're selling them. You're
also selling them all the problems that existed before with
that car. And it's a that's a very exploitative business.
I was involved in. It helped sort of pay for
some of the things that I had to have my needs,
my necessary things. But I found it too honest of
(18:02):
a business. So I decided for myself to go ahead
and go to law school.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
That's a good Let me ask you this then, man,
like would you if you come up in a family
like this, Like god, it even says here a butt uncle,
Grandpa Nicko wrestled.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
A grizzly bear.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
You deal with a family like that's a gangsters and
car dealerships and all kinds of stuff like that. There
has to be occasions and then those kind of families
where like, you know, the guy comes in, Okay, everybody,
grab a bat, we're going to we got to some
dirty work. Did Did they toll you tag along on
those kinds of things?
Speaker 1 (18:39):
It wasn't even telling you to tag along. If one
of us was involved in something, we all were.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
And that was and that very much.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
So there's still sort of that attitude in this in
our family, and and that part of that is just
sort of the the culture, the Italian culture, the Sicilian
culture is really family centered and it's it's really us
versus the world. And that's that still was ingrained in me.
So yes, I mean, if there was a fight, everybody
that was there was fighting.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Did you have brothers?
Speaker 1 (19:11):
I did so I have I have two younger brothers.
I have one that is close in age to me,
my brother Kevin, and then I have a very much
younger brother, Dustin, whose details I discussed in the book
as well. My younger brother, Dustin is almost the exact
same age as my son Joey, and they they were
(19:32):
kind of brought up together as closer to brothers than
I'd say that they were, you know, uncle and nephew.
But there's a story behind that, and a big story,
a huge, huge revealing story and big, big shake up
for the family because Dustin is my dad biological child,
but not my mom's, and they are still married.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
I don't get that your mom and dad.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
They remained married, but yeah, my mom and dad remained married,
and my dad had a child with someone else.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
That happens all the time.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
But they yesterday again, But I mean, the story, the
details and circumstances around go ahead. Sorry, sorry, sorry, yesterday.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
The guys. It turns out his real father was a
Catholic priest, okay, and then the church was making their family,
made their family move to another town and bought them
a house in another town, and then forced the father
to divorce the mother, who was with the priest, then
sent the priest to some kind of like a church
prison and us, uh, yeah, that guy's.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Well, I'm not good And I'm not trying to say
that's the most messed up part of the story, that
of my story, but that is a huge, huge portion
of what happened. And sort of my mom and dad
remained together, I guess unhappily or someone unhappily, as they
were before today. But my dad had a child with
someone that was not my mom and everyone that was
(21:03):
not a secret. Out of everything that was a secret
in our family, that part was not a secret, and
there were lots of secrets, and that's kind of what
this is for me too. This is really sort of
a confession.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
And then what about the brothers. Are they take go
down the same path you did or they took their
own road.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
Yeah, so both of my brothers are successful. The youngest
is he's a sophomore in college. My brother Dustin, so
he's my son, is also a sophomore in college. They've
attended college together. They're best friends. That's my son's best
friend in the entire world. But he is not treated
necessarily the same way as my brother that's closer in
(21:42):
age to me. My brother Kevin, closer in age to me,
my best friend in the whole world. I tell a
lot of stories about our life and us growing up.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
But he is a.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Juvenile officer in the same circuit that I work in.
He's worked as a police officer. He owns more businesses,
and he runs on the same side as the law
as I do not like the things that used to
happen with our ancestors. So we have done our best
to sort of purge that just deviance from our family.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
And how did that come about? Because you're growing up
in this and you know you said a teacher influenced you.
But the teacher taught you right and wrong, right from wrong,
and morals and things like that.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Well, it wasn't just that she taught me right right
for wrong. She she she stuck up with me when
it mattered most. I got into trouble in school, I
got cross ways with the principal, and she she literally
put her career on the line. She was willing to
lose her job fighting for me. But to answer the
question in sort of a roundabout way, I knew better,
(22:57):
but I wasn't taught better. And so it was. It
was I saw these influences on the out you know,
other people, other people didn't do those things, other people
didn't act that way. And I knew that there was
a right way and a wrong way to do things.
The easy way was usually the wrong way. And that's
the way that my family had always found their self taking.
(23:19):
And I knew if I wanted to or to change
our trajectory, which which really was my desire, especially once
I had children, if I wanted to change our family's trajectory,
something had to change, and that started with hard work
and sort of how do we how do we change
the perception of this family and what we are.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Yeah, that's so true. Some people just have that in them.
They know right from My daughter was that way, and
from the moment she was born, she always knew right
from wrong and she always wanted to do right and
she's still that way to this day. Now, what about
when you're sitting on the bench now and you see
a young man like yourself that maybe you know, had
the same kind of nameative influences that you did, and
(24:01):
it wasn't didn't have the strength that you did to
turn his back on a life of crime. What do
you have extra empathy for that?
Speaker 1 (24:10):
So I think so, I think that it puts me
in a unique position to have not just empathy, but
real understanding, and it really helps me not take a
cookie cutter approach to justice, which our justice system has
a lot of work that needs to be done. One
of the benefits of me being as young as I
am and being a judge is that I can see
(24:32):
those changes through and you know, I can identify the
things that need to be changed, I can work on
those things, and I can actually see the results of
that change. And really one of the things we need
to do. We can't take a cookie cutter approach to
how we do things we need to do. We should
have empathy in most situations. There are some situations where
they just regardless of whatever they came from, we can't.
(24:56):
We can't accept certain things in society. Those situations and
has to be dealt with a little bit different. But
when I see young men or even older man that
sort of remind me of myself, I always take a
deeper look at what's going on before I rush to
a judgment.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
It's so true. You know, you look at some of
these defendants, you know, and you just say, man, this
guy just never had a chance. You know, you just
never had a chance. You know, this is what he
was brought into parents in one one parent drug addiction
to powery his whole life, and this is all they know,
you know, it's all they know.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
And for the most part, if I'm being real honest,
it was mostly all that I knew. My mom was
sort of this really anchoring force for me, and I
don't want to minimize how much of an impact. And
the only thing I can think of is just literally
out of true love. It was just her ability to
sort of shelter me from some of these bad things
(25:59):
and ensure me not just you know, that these bad
things existed and that the world was a rough place,
but that there was hope that I could do better.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
What about when you were working at the public Defender's office,
you know, someone the hardest working lawyers and the most
experienced lawyers I've ever dealt with public defenders, you know,
but the general public has this attitude like, well they're
the public pretender, you know what I mean, and that
they're not qualified lawyers and that they're not really trying
that hard. How would just what would you say to
(26:33):
someone to advise them and how to appreciate their public
defenders again a free lawyer, and you know, and to
take their advice.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Because so thank you number one, because I will defend
that more than any other part of our system. The
best lawyers that I work with on the whole are
public defenders in Missouri. I came from that as from
(27:00):
the public defender system myself. That's what trained me how
to be a litigator. Part of that struggle is that
you don't get to choose your clients. You know, really
high profile lawyers they get to kind of pick and choose.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
The clients that they want, and.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
They usually choose the ones that choose the ones that
are really affluent, that can afford to pay them and
afford to do the things that are necessary to sort
of buy their way out of justice. Public defenders don't
have that luxury. We would get assigned cases, and so
when that case is assigned to you, you had to
take it good, bad, and different. And usually those people
were coming from those circumstances that we were just talking about.
(27:36):
They're really struggling. If they're getting a public defender, that
means that they are indigent. That Number one just to start,
they don't have money, and they don't have money, which
means they don't have resources. They don't have access to
certain resources. Lots of times, especially in rural Missouri, they
don't even have the ability to get to court. They
don't have a car. We wouldn't have good working phone
(27:57):
numbers for them, wouldn't be able to reach them when
we try to call them. But those those guys go
to battle every single day and they deserve the utmost
respect in what they do. Not only are they qualified attorneys,
I say that they are the best attorneys in our system.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
They're just the least appreciated, you know.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
And when you talk about these defendersies, they don't have
a phone, they don't have a way to get to court,
you know, it's so true. And they don't even know
what the charges are. They don't even understand what they're
being charged with or when their next court date is.
They don't. It's just we happen to come up with
a better system, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
You're absolutely yeah, You're absolutely correct about that. And one
of the ways we do that is transparency. And I
don't think that we are transparent at all in New judiciary,
and that's one of the things that has to change.
We have to be very transparent. But I also think
that we need to humanize the judiciary because when people
think about a judge, they think of this old cantanker
(29:00):
guy sitting on the bench that is barely alive, much
less paying attention.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
To what's going on in the courtroom.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
That, as far as I'm concerned, that image has to change.
We you know, we think that historically there's always backroom
deals going on, there's you know, justice takes place in chambers,
not on the bench, you know, out in the courtroom.
That has to change. We have to quit taking things
up in chambers. We have to quit doing things where
we're having discussions behind closed doors. We need to be
(29:30):
doing things on the record, out in the public, and
when the public has questions.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
We should answer them.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
And that that's something that I've committed to changing. And
that's something that I am as transparent as I can be.
Quite literally at this point, I'm an open book.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
What about though, because you know, we have this public
defenders system, but the prosecutors that they have more money,
they have more investigators, they have more resources. Why don't
we have a more or and why why can't we
just have like, one day you're a defense defense glory
and one day you're a prosecutor, you know what I mean? Like,
why can't if we're really assigning these cases, why can't
(30:07):
we shuffle it around so that there's not this bias
and this one sided the resources.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
So I would I would caution against doing that, and
there's lots of reasons, but I would say one of
the big things that I would say, the problem with
that is that there are people that are much better
suited to be on one side or the other. And
that's for lots of reasons. Some people don't have the
type of entity that it thinks makes to represent some descendants,
they just don't. They don't have the understanding, they don't
(30:38):
have the care, and then sort of vice versa. There
are people that exist that certainly would say, I'm not
going to be the one responsible for taking this man's
freedom away or this you know, this woman's freedom away.
I won't be responsible for that, and so I cannot.
I could never be a prosecutor or, I can never
be a judge, you know, the person who's to impose
(30:59):
the sentence. I can't do that. That would be primarily
why I think if there are some ethical issues with
doing that, it sort of looks like you are just
making one work group and when you're switching chairs like that.
There's been some Missouri cities that have gotten themselves in
trouble because of those type of things where a prosecutor
(31:21):
will be a prosecutor in one jurisdiction in Missouri, they'd
be a judge in another jurisdiction and they'd be a
defense attorney in another, and they were just kind of
playing musical chairs. And the appearance that that kind of
gives to the outside is, well, these are just a
bunch of good old boys. They work with each other,
and if you're not one of them, you're an outsider.
You're not going to get justice because these guys have
(31:41):
to deal with each other every day and they don't
deal with you but one time in your lifetime.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
Then what would this solution be, Like a bigger budget
for the Public Defender's office, So.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
The Public Defender's Office is understaffed, underfunded. I will say
one thing that happened recently in Missouri that actually bought
brought this sort of influx of dollars. We the voters
passed a constitutional amendment to allow marijuana recreationally from marijuana
in the state, which brought along with it tax dollars,
(32:14):
and one third of those tax dollars go directly to
the Public Defender's office. Because of that amendment, they got
a bunch of money over the last couple of years,
and so they are doing a better job at funding,
or we are doing a better job in Missouri specifically
at funding. There are lots of different ways that the
public descender systems are ran across the US. Some of
(32:35):
them don't have a formal system. We have an actual
Missouri Public Defenders system and it's actually the law largest
law firm in the state of Missouri, so the most
number of lawyers, it's the law will be widest spread,
most number of offices. And so I think Missouri sort
of is doing it right. I don't know how some
of the other states fund the things that we do
(32:55):
because we were unique and we passed a constitutional amendment
in Missouri to allow the recreational use of marijuana. Other
states have done that either really legislatively, They've let their
lawmakers make that decision. The people in Missouri voted for this.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Yeah, that raises a ton of money that that wreck weed.
Back in Vegas, they have lines around the block that
they have marijuana stores as big as Walmart over.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
There, and we're seeing that here in Missouri. It's I mean,
it's it's becoming big business. It really is.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
I don't know if that's a good thing, though. Man,
do you want to see your kids smoking pot? You know,
and you know it's kind of it. What do you think?
Speaker 1 (33:39):
I don't So as far as my opinion on it,
it is the law and state of Missouri, and so
you know, whether it should be legal, should not be legal.
I will say many times I view it we are
just substituting one substance for another substance, and we're not
treating the real underlying substance substance use of this abuse issue.
(34:01):
And so if it is a legal alternative to some
harder drugs, there may be some I think that there
are a very small number of people that would do that,
that would use that in lieu of other drugs, other
harder drugs, or other illegal drugs that they would get
their hands on. But I think that that group of
people is very small. There are some people that use
(34:22):
it for pain, some people that use it for other
sort of outlets. Maybe we're keeping those people from using
harder drugs or getting addicted to opioids or certain other drugs.
But I think for the most part, recreational use of
marijuana that was existing before we legalize it as they
or not. People that wanted to get their hands on marijuana,
they could get it, right, It's just what we've allowed
(34:45):
to happen. Now. I think we can tax the you know,
we have tax dollars that are flowing in. We have
some more control, We have control about the quality and
quantity people can have. And you know, we regulated and
Missouri in a way that you can't just sort of
add things, you know, fillers or other drugs to marijuana
(35:09):
when you know sellers or dealers on the street can
do that.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
Yeah. On the other end of that, though, I got
friends that did twenty five years. Man got twenty five
year sentences from marijuana that are just getting out and
then seeing the supermarket they can't out. Can you imagine that.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
Many were required when we passed that constitutional amendment in
Missouri to go back and look at convictions and to
expunge those convictions, and so there were lots of people
that were alleviated from the sort of the repercussions of that,
although it doesn't buy them any of the time they
(35:45):
spent in prison or jail back. And so, I mean,
but I agree the attitudes have changed so much. And
let's be honest, marijuana cases were much easier to prove
than a lot of the more sophisticated drug rings because
people that were selling and buying marijuana, it was usually
for recreational use and it was usually kind of your
(36:08):
your corner drug dealer who had, you know, a little
bit of weed in a uh, you know, dining bag
of weed. And now there have been certainly an uptick
in the usage of alternatives to smoking marijuana in Missouri
(36:32):
because of this amendment as well. But that's that's sort
of an aside, and I mean, I certainly will talk
about that anytime you'd like to. But there people are
using dabs and sort of edibles and certain things that
different administrative messages or MISSUS administration for marijuana and Missouri
then I think existed before. And so there's now sort
(36:54):
of created this vaping market, this sort of edible market
that never existed, and so we're also getting high concentrations
of THHD, and so what we're seeing is there are
some people that are experiencing the type of psychosis associated
with high levels of THHD content in things that they ingest.
And so there's a different problem that we're starting to
(37:16):
deal with, sort of this kind of psychosis that exists
because people are using too much or too high quality
of marijuana.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
They're way too powerful. It's so much more powerful when
I was a kid. And it's not even funny. Now, Now,
what about the judge sits there and he sees every
walk of life. It passes by your desk, him by
the bench. Damn, What do you think is the main
factor when you're watching divorces, you're watching violent crime? What's
(37:44):
the major contributing factor to all us? Is it addiction?
Is it a poverty? What is the main cause out
there of all these brings people a court?
Speaker 1 (37:54):
So I will answer that question, but to give a
little bit more on my background, my undergrads in criminology
and criminal justice, and so I very in very real
way study these things, and I would say there's not
one factor that you can identify that says this will
predict criminality or this is going to predict whether people
(38:17):
follow the law. I would say that across the board,
there's so many different factors that factor into it, but
I would say generally, poverty is a huge motivator. When
people have a lack of resources, they look for alternatives,
and if that pauses them to violate the law, they
cause them to violet the law. If had they been
given a choice, they had the resources that they needed
(38:40):
and been given a choice, they would choose not to
violate the law if they had a chance. I will
also say that there is an overwhelming amount of mental
health cases that we don't address in this country, and
lots of those are co occurring disorders. A lot of
people get addicted to substances because they're trying to sort
of calm their mind in a lack of a better
(39:02):
way to put it, but they're trying to repress those
symptoms of other mental health issues that they have, and
the only way they can do that is sort of
to numb their mind or to be under the influence.
And you know in the in the book, I talk
about opiate addiction and that my dad still struggles with
that and very very much so. I think that that
is a struggle with some underlying mental health diagnoses that
(39:25):
he's never had treated. And I think that that's his
way of sort of dealing or that that type of
world he can cope with. But when he has these
other sort of triggers in his own mind, he doesn't
have the ability to deal with it, you know.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
And like you said, you know, mental health is such
a factor. But poverty will cause you to make bad
decisions when you're constantly stressing over the rent and where
your next meal is going to be, if you're homeless
or you're about to be homeless. When you have that
level of stress in your life all the time, first
of all, you only attract it to other people have
that same levels stress in their life. They're the only
(40:01):
people you want to listen to. You don't want to
listen to that teacher to help you out. You want
to listen to the other guys with the same thing
you are. And you make bad decisions, You make impulsive decisions,
You make stupid decisions, and that's how you want to
be in court, you know, are dealing with the cops,
you know, And.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
I would agree that there's there's this there's a huge
part of our criminal elements that that's the issue. There
are also people that just exist that are just evil,
bad people like those people exist, and we shouldn't we
shouldn't shy from that and just pretend that that doesn't
exist in the world and that we can fix all
of the ills of the world by giving people money,
because really lots of people with power, influence and money,
(40:41):
they still do some really egregious things. They usually think
that they're not going to get caught, or they don't
care if they get caught because they think they have
the type of influence that it takes to get out
of it. And sometimes they're actually right.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
No, you're absolutely right. But if we could direct our research,
if we had less people coming in there because their
minor addictions and their minor uh they're chaos in their life,
we could deal more effectively with those really dangerous folks
that this be about there. You're right, they're a mess,
you know, and they're terrifying kind of people. But we
could deal with them better if you had if your
caseload was cut in half, you know what I mean,
(41:18):
and the cops didn't have to deal What do you
think about this this policing stuff where they talk about
community policing where the instead of the cops dealing with
the bickering between landlords and tenants and those kind of calls,
if we had like a civilian response to that kind
of thing.
Speaker 1 (41:35):
So I do have to at least have a little
bit of personal disclosure. Okay, my wife is a police
officer by trade. My brother Heaven, is a police officer,
and so I kind of view police officers a little
bit different than I think the general public may. I
will say in rural communities there's still a lot of
support for police. The police, that's the only resources we have.
(41:59):
If we make a call to they're going to actually
come out. They they are underfunded, they are under trained,
They're balancing really from call to call here in Rurle,
you know, Missouri, and they they're doing their best just
to keep their own heads above water. If we could
fund the ability to sort of send counselors or send
(42:20):
counseling out to some calls, that would be wonderful. But
I will also say that because of the way that
those calls typically come in and they happen, I think
law enforcement is going to have to be closer on
the standby, especially you know, in the middle of a
city and you're you know, you have a police precinct
that blocks away. That may not be that much of
(42:40):
a response time. There are places in counties that I
work that response times are an hour plus for law
enforcement to get there. And so it's it's not like
stopping anything that's active or ongoing. It's cleaning up whatever
message left when they get there.
Speaker 2 (42:55):
Now, I hear you, that must be terrifying too man
to be an hour and out there by yourself with
one other guy, you know, you don't know who else
is going to show up. We're talking to Judge Michael
Randazzo and the book is called Presiding Overshadows From Chaos
to Order in the Court. His life stories is fascinating.
Grew up in a chaotic family, you know, but worked
(43:16):
his way out and now he's sitting on the bench.
You could find him at Randazzo Law on Instagram and Twitter.
He's Michael Randazzo on Facebook. You can meet him in
person October eighteenth in Bismarck, Missouri, at the Bismarck Coffee
Company where he's going to be signing books. Might Judge
Michael Randazzo, what about do you hear these different theories
(43:40):
of how to deal with the cash bail system. Some
people have been saying do it away but all together,
and other people saying, you know, what do you make
of that home debate.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
So cash bail system rewards people that have resources. Again,
I mean, it's just it's cyclical, and what happens in
many cases is people that have the money to bond out.
No matter how much you set that bond out, they're
going to get out. That doesn't make them any less
of a flight risk or any less of a public
(44:12):
safety threat because they have the money to get out.
It actually, if you think about it, really probably makes
them more likely to have the ability to either flee
or to sort of commit additional crimes or influence what's
happening in the crimes they're charged with, because they have
the access to people and resources and connections to sort
(44:34):
of disappear, leave the country, do whatever else they'd like
to do. Poorer people are the ones that are certainly
the most affected by cash bail systems. I will say
as a judge, I do like it when we have
a bonds person on a case when they have to
(44:55):
actually have a bonds person who is holding them accountable
because if they don't show up in court, the bonds
person then has an obligation to go pick them up,
put them in their trunk, and bring them to the courthouse.
Now and the same in all respects are the same
sort of.
Speaker 3 (45:15):
Way.
Speaker 1 (45:18):
They probably don't have the way to access even more
fluid clients in that way they live. You know, certain
people live in gay communities and houses that they're not
they're bonds. People aren't getting in. But when you know,
you know where to go to find a defendant who
just doesn't have resources. There's only so many places in
(45:39):
these small communities where I work for them to go look,
and somebody is going to know where those people are
because everybody knows everybody, and everybody knows everybody's business. And
feel like, I don't think it's such a bad idea
to have some person pre trial monitoring what's going on
with defendants. What I do think the problem is is
(45:59):
people that and just can't afford the same number of
same amount of money. If you have a defendant who
has you know, million dollars, and you have a defendant
who has no money, no dollars, the million dollar defendant's
going to get out of jail most likely for almost
anything they're charged with, unless it's murder or something very serious.
And the defendant who doesn't have any money, if you
(46:21):
set a cash bail, doesn't get out for a seat,
I'll ticket.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
What about the probation and parole and how is your
probation and parole over there? Did you really keep an
eye on people? Because it seems to be lacking in
many ways and then other ways it's a design to fail.
How is it done there?
Speaker 1 (46:43):
Though, as just as a general statement, I do want
to say this, the people that I work with are
very committed to doing what they do. I think I
work with some of the best people at what they
do anywhere in this country my circuit, and so I
will defend the people and their personal actions against anyone.
(47:06):
I do believe that our system is set up in
a way it encourages people to not do their job.
And what I mean by that is in probation and
prol and encourages people not to sort of check in
on people or to drug test them, because if they
do drug test them and they find out that they've violated,
they've got more work they've got to do, and then
(47:29):
they have to, you know, file violation reports, and then
they may have to come to court and testify ab
off those.
Speaker 3 (47:34):
Violations, and then they have to you may.
Speaker 1 (47:36):
Have to recommend sending somebody to prison. And so there's
this there's this sort of incentive to to not do
the job, or to not to kind of not I
shouldn't say not do the job, but to just kind
of look the other way and pretend that things aren't
happening that we all know that we all know are happening.
I have some defendance on in my caseload that will
(47:56):
show up to court. They'll be on probation, and they'll
show up to court, and they're noticeably high while they
are in court. And I'll look and see, Okay, when's
the last time this person's drug tested? And they've been
on probation for a year and they've never been drug
tested like zero. That is a failure. And I'm not
going to say who's necessarily responsible for that, but I
(48:16):
think institutionally so as an institution, our Department of Corrections
in Missouri, they continue to claim that they have too
many offenders, we have too many people incarcerated, We need
to let more people out. But if we were going
to do that. We have to be comfortable with people
still being monitored in the community, and that is a
huge failure right now for us.
Speaker 2 (48:38):
Isn't One of the issues with probation and parole is
the informant the way we rely on informance, confidential informance
and snitches that to make cases. And there's people out
there just because they can generate a lot of cases,
they're professional snitches that they're just allowed to do whatever
they want and over and over and over.
Speaker 1 (49:01):
I would say that that's problem Yeah, I would say
that's very problematic. And I will say most of the
probation officers that I work with, if there's somebody that's
working to provide information for whatever case or case is,
if they're working sort of as an informant for say
a drug task force, they are going to want permission
(49:24):
from the judge to allow them to do that. And
so the judges typically have some oversight and some control
over that in our system, the way our system works
here in Missouri other places I am. I know that
there's sort of this kind of unwritten way that things work,
and if there's no paperwork filed, then probation officers don't
(49:47):
find out about it. Or they let it set on
their desk and tell people complete what they're doing, and
then they sort of absolve them of any responsibility they
had in those circumstances because they were providing information. And
the real truth of it is, most of the time,
and what I've seen in cases, there's this illusion out
(50:08):
there that everybody is going to keep their mouths shut
and nobody's going to talk about the things that happened,
or they're not going to admit to doing something wrong.
When people get handcuffed put on them, they find theirselves
in a jail and they're really facing real hard time
in prison. Most people talk, And so I don't know
how effective even the sniches that you say, but the
(50:32):
people that they're informing, I don't know how really effective
those people are anyway, because they're right there involved in
those crimes. And to be real honest, it's happened more
than once where an informant in that situation that I
know of, the informant has been the one that's actually
(50:52):
responsible for things and sort of looped everybody else into
whatever they had going on to try to inform on him.
Speaker 2 (51:02):
Yeah, usually the guy in town that's the most successful,
his crime is also a snitch, you know what I mean?
It has like a get out of jail free card
man literally a card. He has a card of the Kapa.
He's snitching too, you know.
Speaker 1 (51:16):
Uh. And you can usually tell those people whenever they
get booked in when they say, I need to talk
to this cop like this this officer, I need to
talk to that person.
Speaker 2 (51:24):
And it's just orageous to just walking it up. But
what about this too? So we're running out of time? Okay,
And I'm from I moved to Florida from Vegas and
the criminal justice system, not the justice system in Vegas,
the court system in Vegas, even in family court and
civil court and stuff like that. There's just so much
corruption where the judges they refer custody evaluators and forensic
(51:48):
accountant and you know, and they court order these experts
and they're getting kickbacks. You know, what do we do
about a situation like that? There has to be some
way that we can up police that it into a
way with that kind of corruption, right.
Speaker 1 (52:05):
I mean, I would absolutely be fine with judges being
required to publicly file tax returns. I don't think there's
anything wrong with that. I mean, if if they're getting money,
and you know, forensic audits need to happen. I'm perfectly
fine with that. I would be as transparent about that
as I can be, because I can tell you in
Missouri we have some what are called financial disclosures. As
(52:26):
a judge, so you have an obligation on your own
to say, I got money from this person for this service,
or I had a contract for this thing, you know,
for whatever the service was, or for whatever the item was.
I had a contract for that item with this person.
You have to disclose those things as a judge. But
(52:46):
unless something bad happens and it comes to light later,
there's no way to really police that disclosure. And I
think I think we should do better job of I
think with all politicians. If if you're putting yourself out
there publicly and you say I want to represent the public,
that type of transparency is needed, not just with the judiciary.
(53:07):
I think that's needed across all politics. Like we should
not there shouldn't be things that were publicly advocating for
but privately hiding.
Speaker 2 (53:17):
We're talking to Judge Michael Randazzo presiding overshadows from Casts
to Order in the Court. This book is mostly about
his personal life and his heritage and his family and
overcoming adversity and sharing things like that. And you know,
I have my own, my own track. Things that you
got a chance to talk to a judge, I don't
thinks on my mind, But Judge Randazzo, what would you
(53:37):
like to leave us with as we end the sense
of you?
Speaker 1 (53:43):
So, I think if if you read the book and
you're looking for something, you will find it. My wife
likes to read sort of you know, romance novels and
kind of in the fishy shades of gray esque, you know,
kind of that genre. There's not that, but almost anything
else you're looking for it's in there. There's some really
(54:04):
really bad, heartbreaking things. There's some lighthearted moments, there's some
funny moments, and there's a message of hope. There's a
message that no matter how bad your circumstances are, you
can be better and you can do better. And if
for no other reason, you know, I wrote this book
(54:25):
to try to show my kids that in the world,
bad does exist, and I'm not trying to shield them
from that. I want them to know that people that
are their heroes, like you know, my grandpa Nick, he
was sort of this lynchpin of our family. He was
larger than life, and you know, he truly was my hero.
(54:45):
But he had his own flaws and his own problems,
and we shouldn't hide from those things. It helps us
understand who we are if we know who we truly
came from.
Speaker 2 (55:00):
Judge, Michael Randaza, you're such a young guy. You already
wrote this book about the story of your life. But
what kind of ambitions do you have for the future?
Would I plan? Governor? You know, governor my Randazza.
Speaker 1 (55:09):
Right, So, I honestly I am. I'm very happy where
I'm at right now. I love doing what I'm doing.
I think that I'm where I need to be. Probably
should have never been here, but I got here somehow,
and I think I'm where I need to be. I
would have told you in the past that I didn't
have any ambitions to do anything other than just be
(55:31):
a circuit judge. You know, two years ago I would
have said exactly that. But also two years ago, I
had told you that I was never going to write
a book.
Speaker 3 (55:38):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (55:38):
And out of some just dumb luck or just some
weird motivation, I guess I started writing down stories and
those stories became something that I wanted to make sure
my kids knew about, and that just sort of ballooned
into something that was bigger than a project than I
had started. It turned into a book, and I'm happy
to get these things out there.
Speaker 3 (56:00):
But I also tell you that, as far.
Speaker 1 (56:02):
As the ambitions go, I'm not a writer. I'm not
an author. This is not something I'm going to make,
you know, my life's work. I really think that I
can have the biggest impact on people's lives in the
judiciary where I'm at right now, and that's where I
plan to stay. I won't foreclose any you know, I
won't at least preclude myself from doing anything else ever.
Speaker 3 (56:24):
But I'm very happy where I'm at.
Speaker 1 (56:26):
I can do this job till I'm seventy years old,
and if i want to see changes made in our
judicial system, I've got a long period of time to
do it.
Speaker 2 (56:33):
Judjoy and Dazo, you know I have a reputation for
asking the tough question, so I have to ask you
this right before we leave. Have you ever gotten a
call from Uncle Nick or Grandpa and Nick and one
of these guys and tried to get you to throw
one of your daughters at softball games.
Speaker 1 (56:50):
So I mean, I will say that, you know, part
of those motivations going back, part of the motivation for
me going to law school was because I knew I
had this family that was going to need a lawyer.
I know.
Speaker 2 (57:01):
Yeah, but like that goes on on saying, man, we
didn't even have to bring that part up. They must
love having a judgement figet it judge, Thank you so much.
I really enjoyed this, and thank you for being patient
with being a Mike screw up there with the appointment
the other time. I really appreciate that, my friend. Thank
you so much, once again presiding overshadows from cast to
(57:24):
order in the court. Michael Randazzo mean him in person,
October eighteenth, Bismarck Coffee Company and Bismarck, Missouri. Randazzo Law
on Instagram and Twitter, and also Michael Randazzel on Facebook.
Thank you so much,
It's the Opperman Report and now here is investigator in
at Opperman.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Okay, welcome to the Opperman Report. I'm your host, private investigator,
Ed Opperman. You can find me at Opperman Investigations and
Digital Friends and Consulting if you reach out to me
through my email Opperman Investigations at gmail dot com. We
have today, we have a sitting judge. Michael Randazzo is
a sitting judge in Missouri right now and he's written
(00:31):
this book. This guy's had some incredible life man presiding
over Shadows from Chaos to Order in the Court. Michael Randazzo.
You can find him on Instagram at Randazzole Law and
Twitter at randazzol Law. But on Facebook he's just Michael Randazzo.
And if you want to meet him in person. October
eighteenth in Bizmarck, Missouri at the Bismarck Coffee Company, there
(00:56):
is going to be signing books and put people in jail.
I guess I sent people to judge Michael Randazza. Are
you there? I am, hey man, this is so exciting.
Before we get into the book, Presiding Overshadows from cast
to Order in the Court, tell us about yourself. Who
is judge Michael Rendezzo.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Well, I'm judge Michael Randazzo, and by all odds, I
never should have been.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
I've had a.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Really eventful life, starting from a berth that was unexpected,
or at least a pregnancy that was unexpected, and a
burst that was premature, and got to spend the first
month or so of my life in the nick U
when I was delivered. My obgu I n who was
(01:45):
supposed to deliver me was on vacation, and so a
veterinarian actually delivered me at the hospital, got delivered and
spent some time and nick you was told, are my
parents told? I wasn't told, but my parents were told
to prepare for the worst, that I was touch and
go many times, and that they would have a special
needs child their whole life. I would be behind developmentally,
(02:07):
both physically and mentally, and the struggles continued from there.
My circumstances when I was released from the hospital were
just as bleak. We were essentially homeless, living in a
very very neat conditions, no running water, no plumbing, and
(02:29):
just scrapping me get by. No one in my family
had ever graduated high school, and I was sort of
the burden at that point and life kind of progressed
and I somehow through a lot of work. I think
(02:49):
my mother turned out to be at least a somewhat
normal child and had a lot of struggle throughout my
childhood as well. But way before my life started, there
were lots of struggles in my family. They always seemed
to run a foul of the law, and I kind
of started taking that trajectory whenever I was a teenager,
(03:10):
I got in a lot of fights, sort to find
myself getting into trouble, got kicked out of school a
couple of times, and almost quit high school, but for
the help of a very persistent teacher. She just wouldn't
let me give up.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
I would have quit, and I.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Found my way through high school, went to college, and
during college I just continue to excel academically. Went to
law school, graduated law school, and have returned to practice
in the area that I grew up in. I've never
lived any more than fifteen minutes from where I live
(03:53):
right now in my entire life. I commuted both to
undergrad into law school and bactice law here in rural
Missouri for fifteen years or so, and in twenty twenty one,
I was elected as circuit judge for Division two of the
forty second Judicial Circuit. And so that's kind of me
(04:14):
in a nutshell. I live here with my family. I
have three kids, Jacob, Joey, and Gracie, and my wife Amanda,
and heavily involved in local sports, youth sports. I've coached
about twenty seasons of different youth sports and I still
coach my daughter's softball team today. And I really will
(04:34):
say that in my life, I.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Coached my dad as a basketball How old is your
daughter a softball?
Speaker 1 (04:40):
So she's fifteen right now. It's a sixteen year old
softball team. So's she's kind of in that age where's
she's really really forming her own identity. And it's much
less coaching and much much more me kind of just
enjoying being on a field with her.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
Yeah, that is the most fun. And the best part
is after every play they all fixed their hair.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
They're very worried about looks.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Yeah, but it's so rewarding, man, that kid stuff. Well,
let me ask you a question, because now you said
to what you were delivered by a veterinarian, and I
was wondering, I said, where the hell could this be?
But it was in rural Missouri.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
What year was that, nineteen eighty four, jo a young guy. Yeah,
I just turned forty one. Yeah, I was actually sort
of historically young for the bench. I became the presiding
judge for our circuit. So the judges in a circuit
in Missouri, they elect a judge to be sort of
(05:39):
the judge in charge of all the judges, who does
all the administrative stuff. It's kind of like the HR
Department for the judges. I got elected to that position
about about a year after I took the bench, making me,
and what we believe in our research, the youngest presiding
judge in the history of Missouri's judiciary, so historically young.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Yes, then, okay, you were delivered by a veterinarian. But
it says that your family was excommunicated from the Sicilian
mafia in Missouri.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
Yes, yes, so that story is sort of how the
book opens. And my great grandfather, Joseph frand Azo actually
Giuseppe was his actual real name. He was deeply involved
in the Saint Louis mafia, with connections to the Chicago.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
Outfit, you know, back to al Capone.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
And the most notorious of them. I had a great
uncle who I'm named after, Mike Benigno, who was also
deeply involved.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
In the Saint Louis outfit are the.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Saint Louis Mafia in Chicago outfit, and then also went
and became sort of the head of the Miami syndicate
after he served in prison time and h didn't give
anybody up. But when that happened, when my great uncle
went to prison, my grandfather decided that he had had
enough and they worked on a way to sort of
(07:11):
get out, and that didn't happen. Still, as far as
I know, the only case that I know of that
someone was actually allowed to get out alive. But when
he was excommunicated, it was a true excommunication. He was
not even able to have contact with his brother in law, Mike,
who was still in and so he when he was
cut off, he was cut off entirely. Didn't speak about it.
(07:32):
Wasn't supposed to say anything to anyone about anything that
ever happened. And I'm sort of breaking that trust, I
think here today. But I think for far enough removed
from it that I'm okay speaking about it.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
Well, it seems like nowadays everybody's talking, yapping away. Man,
you got these guys with their podcast. Yeah, who are
these guys? You know what's going on?
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Yeah, and it's just a different world. Huh. No.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
But do you have like organized crime or mafia in Mark, Missouri?
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Now, I would say no.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
There are some stories in the book about some of
the things that actually my own father did involving organized crimes,
some connections to the actual drug cartels out of Mexico.
And and that's even closer in time, you know, to me,
stuff that I was alive and got to see firsthand.
(08:24):
And and those things existed in Bismarck, you know, here
in rural Missouri town of twelve hundred people.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Wow, yeah, that is a small town. Yeah, but yeah,
it's totally different now after the eighties. I was smuggling
marijuana back in the eighties in my old days from
Mexico that you know. But now it's all cartel stuff.
It's just so rigidly controlled. It's just a whole different
ball game. So I could see how they would have
their their tentacles reaching in there to this little town
(08:54):
in Missouri. What kind of cases do you do? You try?
You don't try, you're not on the bench. Actually you're
just supervised.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
No, no, no, I'm on the bench too, so that
being the presiding judge. When I was doing that, that
also was an additional responsibility. I had to keep my
normal case loads, so it didn't obviate any responsibility I had.
I just got elected to do.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
The extra stuff.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
And so I'm a circuit judge here in Missouri. I
handle felony cases once they get to a circuit court level,
after they've had a preliminary hearing or if there's been
a grand jury indictment, and so the worst of the worst,
all the way to murder. First, that are you know,
capital cases where capital punishment could could actually be imposed.
(09:40):
And then I handle civil cases, domestic cases involving divorces, adoptions,
and eternity cases. And then I also handle civil cases
where their tortue claims and the amount request that is
(10:01):
over twenty five thousand dollars. So really the things that
people think of the most serious, the most litigious type stuff,
that's what I get to do.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
And then what about when you were practice in law,
what kind of lad did your practice?
Speaker 1 (10:15):
So I had a couple of different phases of my career. Initially,
right out of law school, I was a public defender,
I got a ton of experience trying cases there, but
I also ran into an experience that I had a
young child at home, and with my young kid at home,
I just couldn't continue to represent criminal offendents in the
way that I could and be true to them and
also be true to my family. And that was a
(10:37):
huge change and a huge pill for me to swallow,
because I only thought I would ever be a defense attorney.
That's the reason I went to law school. That's what
I wanted to to do. And in practice, once I
had a family and you had young children at home,
kind of came to this realization that this isn't for me,
and so I had to make a career switch. And
(10:57):
so I career switch wise. I went from being a
defense attorney to being a prosecuting attorney, and I prosecuted
cases for about ten years two separate venues. I was
the head elected prosecutor in Reynolds County, Missouri for about
six years. And then when at the end of that
(11:18):
term of my term of service, the judge whose position
I took, he decided he was not going to run
to re election, and I decided to run. And coming
from the smallest county in our circuit with the smallest population.
It was an uphill battle. There were five people that
ran in that election, and I won the election with
a plurality, not a majority. I got about thirty six
(11:41):
percent of the vote and was elected and have served
as a circuit judge ever since.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
So a small town like that, small town politics, like,
isn't there like a club? And if you're coming out
of this poor family, how did you your rise your
way to the top of this situation.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
So that's been the struggle of my life. I mean
that that is literally one of the reasons why I
this book was so important to me, Like I needed
to make sure that people understood the struggles that existed
both in my life, but to sort of cleanse my
children from that sort of ancestral mark of Cain that.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
Was associated with us.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
And and I knew that that was my obligation to
do that if I was in a position to do that.
And so the real way it worked is really getting
ostracized and just proving every step along the way that
I had some words, that I had some value, and
that I was not what people thought my family was.
(12:44):
And in lots of ways I'm not sure I've ever
changed people's minds, but yeah, to be to be honest
and transparent.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
The book is as honest as I.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Can be about my life, about what I've known and
what has happened to me, and also sort of this
shield of protection around my children so they don't have
to go through what I went through because it was
a real struggle. And when I say real struggle, I
volunteered to serve as the city attorney, city prosecutor, city judge,
all three of those positions for the city of Bismarck,
(13:20):
where I grew up, where I lived for free, literally
charged them nothing for my legal services to try to
give back, to try to build some good will with
the community, and they would not accept the offer. So
that really kind of gives you sort of the dynamic
I was dealing with now. Professionally, I felt a lot
of victims, and I think I've done enough good will
(13:43):
sort of not specifically in the city of Bismarck, but
regionally that some of that or most of that taint
is gone.
Speaker 2 (13:57):
That's fascinating. But you know, I'm tempted to ask this question,
how much do you think that is that do your
own I don't want to call like a chip on
your shoulder, but your own like you don't feel good enough,
you know what I mean, Because I can't imagine people
look at you and see you're a judge and they
don't have the utmost respect for you and your accomplishments
and stuff. How much of that is in your head?
(14:17):
And how much is that in reality?
Speaker 1 (14:20):
So I think, to be honest, part of it is
just me battling sort of these demons that exist within me.
I mean, I would acknowledge that and agree with that.
Part of it is true, like during my upbringing, I
was denied chances, denied really opportunities that I think should
have been given to me because of what I came from,
(14:41):
not because of who I was. And part of that,
like I said, part of that certainly is an internal struggle,
but lots of external influence on that as well.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
It must feel great knowing that your daughter, how many
kids you got?
Speaker 1 (14:57):
I have three?
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Yeah, well, hear your kids? You know that they don't
have to worry. You know, their dad's a judge, man.
You know, they have all the respect in the world,
you know what I mean. They don't have to go
through what you did.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Man.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
You know it's a different world for them than it
was for me. I will one hundred percent acknowledge that,
and that's that's part of the point. That was part
of the reason. Then that still is truly my reason
for being and doing there. They are completely my motivation
and everything that I do.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Well, give us an idea, what did you come from me?
So you mentioned hearing the book about your father was
a Mexican cartels who still has an opiate addition to
this day.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
He does. So my mother was and there's some very
graphic details about what happened in her life, but when
she was young, she was sexually molested by multiple men,
including one time she was admitted to a mental hospital
and she was sexually molested by one of the people.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
Who worked in the hospital itself.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
She attempts to a side she had an addiction problem.
My my father during that period of time, you know,
into his teens, he had this proclivity for violence, and
he lived sort of outside the really the controls of anyone. Uh.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
He got into.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Fights and he actually seriously injured some people.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
He was brought on.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
Some charges and was only only released based upon his
own mental state. And so there's a lot of mental struggle.
There's a lot of actual physical struggle that's in my
very close past, you know, my mother and my father,
but going back, each generation has brought with it its
own trauma throughout my history. My as I said, my
(16:51):
great grandfather Joe, he was Italian mafia, the Sicilian mafia,
and he had those own struggles like that. My grandfather
always wanted to be a gangster, like he literally even
on his deathbed, who my grandfather, Nick, Joe's son. He
(17:14):
was my hero, still is to this day. But he
was a very flawed man as well. He ran at
a used car lot. He was a car salesman, and
that business is very exploitative by itself. It's you know,
people that are buying used cars like that, They're coming
there looking for something and you're you're selling them sort
(17:37):
of some hope that their position can get better with this,
you know, this used car that you're selling them. You're
also selling them all the problems that existed before with
that car. And it's a that's a very exploitative business.
I was involved in. It helped sort of pay for
some of the things that I had to have my needs,
my necessary things. But I found it too honest of
(18:02):
a business. So I decided for myself to go ahead
and go to law school.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
That's a good Let me ask you this then, man,
like would you if you come up in a family
like this, Like god, it even says here a butt uncle,
Grandpa Nicko wrestled.
Speaker 1 (18:20):
A grizzly bear.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
You deal with a family like that's a gangsters and
car dealerships and all kinds of stuff like that. There
has to be occasions and then those kind of families
where like, you know, the guy comes in, Okay, everybody,
grab a bat, we're going to we got to some
dirty work. Did Did they toll you tag along on
those kinds of things?
Speaker 1 (18:39):
It wasn't even telling you to tag along. If one
of us was involved in something, we all were.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
And that was and that very much.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
So there's still sort of that attitude in this in
our family, and and that part of that is just
sort of the the culture, the Italian culture, the Sicilian
culture is really family centered and it's it's really us
versus the world. And that's that still was ingrained in me.
So yes, I mean, if there was a fight, everybody
that was there was fighting.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
Did you have brothers?
Speaker 1 (19:11):
I did so I have I have two younger brothers.
I have one that is close in age to me,
my brother Kevin, and then I have a very much
younger brother, Dustin, whose details I discussed in the book
as well. My younger brother, Dustin is almost the exact
same age as my son Joey, and they they were
(19:32):
kind of brought up together as closer to brothers than
I'd say that they were, you know, uncle and nephew.
But there's a story behind that, and a big story,
a huge, huge revealing story and big, big shake up
for the family because Dustin is my dad biological child,
but not my mom's, and they are still married.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
I don't get that your mom and dad.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
They remained married, but yeah, my mom and dad remained married,
and my dad had a child with someone else.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
That happens all the time.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
But they yesterday again, But I mean, the story, the
details and circumstances around go ahead. Sorry, sorry, sorry, yesterday.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
The guys. It turns out his real father was a
Catholic priest, okay, and then the church was making their family,
made their family move to another town and bought them
a house in another town, and then forced the father
to divorce the mother, who was with the priest, then
sent the priest to some kind of like a church
prison and us, uh, yeah, that guy's.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Well, I'm not good And I'm not trying to say
that's the most messed up part of the story, that
of my story, but that is a huge, huge portion
of what happened. And sort of my mom and dad
remained together, I guess unhappily or someone unhappily, as they
were before today. But my dad had a child with
someone that was not my mom and everyone that was
(21:03):
not a secret. Out of everything that was a secret
in our family, that part was not a secret, and
there were lots of secrets, and that's kind of what
this is for me too. This is really sort of
a confession.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
And then what about the brothers. Are they take go
down the same path you did or they took their
own road.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
Yeah, so both of my brothers are successful. The youngest
is he's a sophomore in college. My brother Dustin, so
he's my son, is also a sophomore in college. They've
attended college together. They're best friends. That's my son's best
friend in the entire world. But he is not treated
necessarily the same way as my brother that's closer in
(21:42):
age to me. My brother Kevin, closer in age to me,
my best friend in the whole world. I tell a
lot of stories about our life and us growing up.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
But he is a.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Juvenile officer in the same circuit that I work in.
He's worked as a police officer. He owns more businesses,
and he runs on the same side as the law
as I do not like the things that used to
happen with our ancestors. So we have done our best
to sort of purge that just deviance from our family.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
And how did that come about? Because you're growing up
in this and you know you said a teacher influenced you.
But the teacher taught you right and wrong, right from wrong,
and morals and things like that.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Well, it wasn't just that she taught me right right
for wrong. She she she stuck up with me when
it mattered most. I got into trouble in school, I
got cross ways with the principal, and she she literally
put her career on the line. She was willing to
lose her job fighting for me. But to answer the
question in sort of a roundabout way, I knew better,
(22:57):
but I wasn't taught better. And so it was. It
was I saw these influences on the out you know,
other people, other people didn't do those things, other people
didn't act that way. And I knew that there was
a right way and a wrong way to do things.
The easy way was usually the wrong way. And that's
the way that my family had always found their self taking.
(23:19):
And I knew if I wanted to or to change
our trajectory, which which really was my desire, especially once
I had children, if I wanted to change our family's trajectory,
something had to change, and that started with hard work
and sort of how do we how do we change
the perception of this family and what we are.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
Yeah, that's so true. Some people just have that in them.
They know right from My daughter was that way, and
from the moment she was born, she always knew right
from wrong and she always wanted to do right and
she's still that way to this day. Now, what about
when you're sitting on the bench now and you see
a young man like yourself that maybe you know, had
the same kind of nameative influences that you did, and
(24:01):
it wasn't didn't have the strength that you did to
turn his back on a life of crime. What do
you have extra empathy for that?
Speaker 1 (24:10):
So I think so, I think that it puts me
in a unique position to have not just empathy, but
real understanding, and it really helps me not take a
cookie cutter approach to justice, which our justice system has
a lot of work that needs to be done. One
of the benefits of me being as young as I
am and being a judge is that I can see
(24:32):
those changes through and you know, I can identify the
things that need to be changed, I can work on
those things, and I can actually see the results of
that change. And really one of the things we need
to do. We can't take a cookie cutter approach to
how we do things we need to do. We should
have empathy in most situations. There are some situations where
they just regardless of whatever they came from, we can't.
(24:56):
We can't accept certain things in society. Those situations and
has to be dealt with a little bit different. But
when I see young men or even older man that
sort of remind me of myself, I always take a
deeper look at what's going on before I rush to
a judgment.
Speaker 2 (25:17):
It's so true. You know, you look at some of
these defendants, you know, and you just say, man, this
guy just never had a chance. You know, you just
never had a chance. You know, this is what he
was brought into parents in one one parent drug addiction
to powery his whole life, and this is all they know,
you know, it's all they know.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
And for the most part, if I'm being real honest,
it was mostly all that I knew. My mom was
sort of this really anchoring force for me, and I
don't want to minimize how much of an impact. And
the only thing I can think of is just literally
out of true love. It was just her ability to
sort of shelter me from some of these bad things
(25:59):
and ensure me not just you know, that these bad
things existed and that the world was a rough place,
but that there was hope that I could do better.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
What about when you were working at the public Defender's office,
you know, someone the hardest working lawyers and the most
experienced lawyers I've ever dealt with public defenders, you know,
but the general public has this attitude like, well they're
the public pretender, you know what I mean, and that
they're not qualified lawyers and that they're not really trying
that hard. How would just what would you say to
(26:33):
someone to advise them and how to appreciate their public
defenders again a free lawyer, and you know, and to
take their advice.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Because so thank you number one, because I will defend
that more than any other part of our system. The
best lawyers that I work with on the whole are
public defenders in Missouri. I came from that as from
(27:00):
the public defender system myself. That's what trained me how
to be a litigator. Part of that struggle is that
you don't get to choose your clients. You know, really
high profile lawyers they get to kind of pick and choose.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
The clients that they want, and.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
They usually choose the ones that choose the ones that
are really affluent, that can afford to pay them and
afford to do the things that are necessary to sort
of buy their way out of justice. Public defenders don't
have that luxury. We would get assigned cases, and so
when that case is assigned to you, you had to
take it good, bad, and different. And usually those people
were coming from those circumstances that we were just talking about.
(27:36):
They're really struggling. If they're getting a public defender, that
means that they are indigent. That Number one just to start,
they don't have money, and they don't have money, which
means they don't have resources. They don't have access to
certain resources. Lots of times, especially in rural Missouri, they
don't even have the ability to get to court. They
don't have a car. We wouldn't have good working phone
(27:57):
numbers for them, wouldn't be able to reach them when
we try to call them. But those those guys go
to battle every single day and they deserve the utmost
respect in what they do. Not only are they qualified attorneys,
I say that they are the best attorneys in our system.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
They're just the least appreciated, you know.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
And when you talk about these defendersies, they don't have
a phone, they don't have a way to get to court,
you know, it's so true. And they don't even know
what the charges are. They don't even understand what they're
being charged with or when their next court date is.
They don't. It's just we happen to come up with
a better system, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
You're absolutely yeah, You're absolutely correct about that. And one
of the ways we do that is transparency. And I
don't think that we are transparent at all in New judiciary,
and that's one of the things that has to change.
We have to be very transparent. But I also think
that we need to humanize the judiciary because when people
think about a judge, they think of this old cantanker
(29:00):
guy sitting on the bench that is barely alive, much
less paying attention.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
To what's going on in the courtroom.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
That, as far as I'm concerned, that image has to change.
We you know, we think that historically there's always backroom
deals going on, there's you know, justice takes place in chambers,
not on the bench, you know, out in the courtroom.
That has to change. We have to quit taking things
up in chambers. We have to quit doing things where
we're having discussions behind closed doors. We need to be
(29:30):
doing things on the record, out in the public, and
when the public has questions.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
We should answer them.
Speaker 1 (29:36):
And that that's something that I've committed to changing. And
that's something that I am as transparent as I can be.
Quite literally at this point, I'm an open book.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
What about though, because you know, we have this public
defenders system, but the prosecutors that they have more money,
they have more investigators, they have more resources. Why don't
we have a more or and why why can't we
just have like, one day you're a defense defense glory
and one day you're a prosecutor, you know what I mean? Like,
why can't if we're really assigning these cases, why can't
(30:07):
we shuffle it around so that there's not this bias
and this one sided the resources.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
So I would I would caution against doing that, and
there's lots of reasons, but I would say one of
the big things that I would say, the problem with
that is that there are people that are much better
suited to be on one side or the other. And
that's for lots of reasons. Some people don't have the
type of entity that it thinks makes to represent some descendants,
they just don't. They don't have the understanding, they don't
(30:38):
have the care, and then sort of vice versa. There
are people that exist that certainly would say, I'm not
going to be the one responsible for taking this man's
freedom away or this you know, this woman's freedom away.
I won't be responsible for that, and so I cannot.
I could never be a prosecutor or, I can never
be a judge, you know, the person who's to impose
(30:59):
the sentence. I can't do that. That would be primarily
why I think if there are some ethical issues with
doing that, it sort of looks like you are just
making one work group and when you're switching chairs like that.
There's been some Missouri cities that have gotten themselves in
trouble because of those type of things where a prosecutor
(31:21):
will be a prosecutor in one jurisdiction in Missouri, they'd
be a judge in another jurisdiction and they'd be a
defense attorney in another, and they were just kind of
playing musical chairs. And the appearance that that kind of
gives to the outside is, well, these are just a
bunch of good old boys. They work with each other,
and if you're not one of them, you're an outsider.
You're not going to get justice because these guys have
(31:41):
to deal with each other every day and they don't
deal with you but one time in your lifetime.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
Then what would this solution be, Like a bigger budget
for the Public Defender's office, So.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
The Public Defender's Office is understaffed, underfunded. I will say
one thing that happened recently in Missouri that actually bought
brought this sort of influx of dollars. We the voters
passed a constitutional amendment to allow marijuana recreationally from marijuana
in the state, which brought along with it tax dollars,
(32:14):
and one third of those tax dollars go directly to
the Public Defender's office. Because of that amendment, they got
a bunch of money over the last couple of years,
and so they are doing a better job at funding,
or we are doing a better job in Missouri specifically
at funding. There are lots of different ways that the
public descender systems are ran across the US. Some of
(32:35):
them don't have a formal system. We have an actual
Missouri Public Defenders system and it's actually the law largest
law firm in the state of Missouri, so the most
number of lawyers, it's the law will be widest spread,
most number of offices. And so I think Missouri sort
of is doing it right. I don't know how some
of the other states fund the things that we do
(32:55):
because we were unique and we passed a constitutional amendment
in Missouri to allow the recreational use of marijuana. Other
states have done that either really legislatively, They've let their
lawmakers make that decision. The people in Missouri voted for this.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Yeah, that raises a ton of money that that wreck weed.
Back in Vegas, they have lines around the block that
they have marijuana stores as big as Walmart over.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
There, and we're seeing that here in Missouri. It's I mean,
it's it's becoming big business. It really is.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
I don't know if that's a good thing, though. Man,
do you want to see your kids smoking pot? You know,
and you know it's kind of it. What do you think?
Speaker 1 (33:39):
I don't So as far as my opinion on it,
it is the law and state of Missouri, and so
you know, whether it should be legal, should not be legal.
I will say many times I view it we are
just substituting one substance for another substance, and we're not
treating the real underlying substance substance use of this abuse issue.
(34:01):
And so if it is a legal alternative to some
harder drugs, there may be some I think that there
are a very small number of people that would do that,
that would use that in lieu of other drugs, other
harder drugs, or other illegal drugs that they would get
their hands on. But I think that that group of
people is very small. There are some people that use
(34:22):
it for pain, some people that use it for other
sort of outlets. Maybe we're keeping those people from using
harder drugs or getting addicted to opioids or certain other drugs.
But I think for the most part, recreational use of
marijuana that was existing before we legalize it as they
or not. People that wanted to get their hands on marijuana,
they could get it, right, It's just what we've allowed
(34:45):
to happen. Now. I think we can tax the you know,
we have tax dollars that are flowing in. We have
some more control, We have control about the quality and
quantity people can have. And you know, we regulated and
Missouri in a way that you can't just sort of
add things, you know, fillers or other drugs to marijuana
(35:09):
when you know sellers or dealers on the street can
do that.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
Yeah. On the other end of that, though, I got
friends that did twenty five years. Man got twenty five
year sentences from marijuana that are just getting out and
then seeing the supermarket they can't out. Can you imagine that.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
Many were required when we passed that constitutional amendment in
Missouri to go back and look at convictions and to
expunge those convictions, and so there were lots of people
that were alleviated from the sort of the repercussions of that,
although it doesn't buy them any of the time they
(35:45):
spent in prison or jail back. And so, I mean,
but I agree the attitudes have changed so much. And
let's be honest, marijuana cases were much easier to prove
than a lot of the more sophisticated drug rings because
people that were selling and buying marijuana, it was usually
for recreational use and it was usually kind of your
(36:08):
your corner drug dealer who had, you know, a little
bit of weed in a uh, you know, dining bag
of weed. And now there have been certainly an uptick
in the usage of alternatives to smoking marijuana in Missouri
(36:32):
because of this amendment as well. But that's that's sort
of an aside, and I mean, I certainly will talk
about that anytime you'd like to. But there people are
using dabs and sort of edibles and certain things that
different administrative messages or MISSUS administration for marijuana and Missouri
then I think existed before. And so there's now sort
(36:54):
of created this vaping market, this sort of edible market
that never existed, and so we're also getting high concentrations
of THHD, and so what we're seeing is there are
some people that are experiencing the type of psychosis associated
with high levels of THHD content in things that they ingest.
And so there's a different problem that we're starting to
(37:16):
deal with, sort of this kind of psychosis that exists
because people are using too much or too high quality
of marijuana.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
They're way too powerful. It's so much more powerful when
I was a kid. And it's not even funny. Now, Now,
what about the judge sits there and he sees every
walk of life. It passes by your desk, him by
the bench. Damn, What do you think is the main
factor when you're watching divorces, you're watching violent crime? What's
(37:44):
the major contributing factor to all us? Is it addiction?
Is it a poverty? What is the main cause out
there of all these brings people a court?
Speaker 1 (37:54):
So I will answer that question, but to give a
little bit more on my background, my undergrads in criminology
and criminal justice, and so I very in very real
way study these things, and I would say there's not
one factor that you can identify that says this will
predict criminality or this is going to predict whether people
(38:17):
follow the law. I would say that across the board,
there's so many different factors that factor into it, but
I would say generally, poverty is a huge motivator. When
people have a lack of resources, they look for alternatives,
and if that pauses them to violate the law, they
cause them to violet the law. If had they been
given a choice, they had the resources that they needed
(38:40):
and been given a choice, they would choose not to
violate the law if they had a chance. I will
also say that there is an overwhelming amount of mental
health cases that we don't address in this country, and
lots of those are co occurring disorders. A lot of
people get addicted to substances because they're trying to sort
of calm their mind in a lack of a better
(39:02):
way to put it, but they're trying to repress those
symptoms of other mental health issues that they have, and
the only way they can do that is sort of
to numb their mind or to be under the influence.
And you know in the in the book, I talk
about opiate addiction and that my dad still struggles with
that and very very much so. I think that that
is a struggle with some underlying mental health diagnoses that
(39:25):
he's never had treated. And I think that that's his
way of sort of dealing or that that type of
world he can cope with. But when he has these
other sort of triggers in his own mind, he doesn't
have the ability to deal with it, you know.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
And like you said, you know, mental health is such
a factor. But poverty will cause you to make bad
decisions when you're constantly stressing over the rent and where
your next meal is going to be, if you're homeless
or you're about to be homeless. When you have that
level of stress in your life all the time, first
of all, you only attract it to other people have
that same levels stress in their life. They're the only
(40:01):
people you want to listen to. You don't want to
listen to that teacher to help you out. You want
to listen to the other guys with the same thing
you are. And you make bad decisions, You make impulsive decisions,
You make stupid decisions, and that's how you want to
be in court, you know, are dealing with the cops,
you know, And.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
I would agree that there's there's this there's a huge
part of our criminal elements that that's the issue. There
are also people that just exist that are just evil,
bad people like those people exist, and we shouldn't we
shouldn't shy from that and just pretend that that doesn't
exist in the world and that we can fix all
of the ills of the world by giving people money,
because really lots of people with power, influence and money,
(40:41):
they still do some really egregious things. They usually think
that they're not going to get caught, or they don't
care if they get caught because they think they have
the type of influence that it takes to get out
of it. And sometimes they're actually right.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
No, you're absolutely right. But if we could direct our research,
if we had less people coming in there because their
minor addictions and their minor uh they're chaos in their life,
we could deal more effectively with those really dangerous folks
that this be about there. You're right, they're a mess,
you know, and they're terrifying kind of people. But we
could deal with them better if you had if your
caseload was cut in half, you know what I mean,
(41:18):
and the cops didn't have to deal What do you
think about this this policing stuff where they talk about
community policing where the instead of the cops dealing with
the bickering between landlords and tenants and those kind of calls,
if we had like a civilian response to that kind
of thing.
Speaker 1 (41:35):
So I do have to at least have a little
bit of personal disclosure. Okay, my wife is a police
officer by trade. My brother Heaven, is a police officer,
and so I kind of view police officers a little
bit different than I think the general public may. I
will say in rural communities there's still a lot of
support for police. The police, that's the only resources we have.
(41:59):
If we make a call to they're going to actually
come out. They they are underfunded, they are under trained,
They're balancing really from call to call here in Rurle,
you know, Missouri, and they they're doing their best just
to keep their own heads above water. If we could
fund the ability to sort of send counselors or send
(42:20):
counseling out to some calls, that would be wonderful. But
I will also say that because of the way that
those calls typically come in and they happen, I think
law enforcement is going to have to be closer on
the standby, especially you know, in the middle of a
city and you're you know, you have a police precinct
that blocks away. That may not be that much of
(42:40):
a response time. There are places in counties that I
work that response times are an hour plus for law
enforcement to get there. And so it's it's not like
stopping anything that's active or ongoing. It's cleaning up whatever
message left when they get there.
Speaker 2 (42:55):
Now, I hear you, that must be terrifying too man
to be an hour and out there by yourself with
one other guy, you know, you don't know who else
is going to show up. We're talking to Judge Michael
Randazzo and the book is called Presiding Overshadows From Chaos
to Order in the Court. His life stories is fascinating.
Grew up in a chaotic family, you know, but worked
(43:16):
his way out and now he's sitting on the bench.
You could find him at Randazzo Law on Instagram and Twitter.
He's Michael Randazzo on Facebook. You can meet him in
person October eighteenth in Bismarck, Missouri, at the Bismarck Coffee
Company where he's going to be signing books. Might Judge
Michael Randazzo, what about do you hear these different theories
(43:40):
of how to deal with the cash bail system. Some
people have been saying do it away but all together,
and other people saying, you know, what do you make
of that home debate.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
So cash bail system rewards people that have resources. Again,
I mean, it's just it's cyclical, and what happens in
many cases is people that have the money to bond out.
No matter how much you set that bond out, they're
going to get out. That doesn't make them any less
of a flight risk or any less of a public
(44:12):
safety threat because they have the money to get out.
It actually, if you think about it, really probably makes
them more likely to have the ability to either flee
or to sort of commit additional crimes or influence what's
happening in the crimes they're charged with, because they have
the access to people and resources and connections to sort
(44:34):
of disappear, leave the country, do whatever else they'd like
to do. Poorer people are the ones that are certainly
the most affected by cash bail systems. I will say
as a judge, I do like it when we have
a bonds person on a case when they have to
(44:55):
actually have a bonds person who is holding them accountable
because if they don't show up in court, the bonds
person then has an obligation to go pick them up,
put them in their trunk, and bring them to the courthouse.
Now and the same in all respects are the same
sort of.
Speaker 3 (45:15):
Way.
Speaker 1 (45:18):
They probably don't have the way to access even more
fluid clients in that way they live. You know, certain
people live in gay communities and houses that they're not
they're bonds. People aren't getting in. But when you know,
you know where to go to find a defendant who
just doesn't have resources. There's only so many places in
(45:39):
these small communities where I work for them to go look,
and somebody is going to know where those people are
because everybody knows everybody, and everybody knows everybody's business. And
feel like, I don't think it's such a bad idea
to have some person pre trial monitoring what's going on
with defendants. What I do think the problem is is
(45:59):
people that and just can't afford the same number of
same amount of money. If you have a defendant who
has you know, million dollars, and you have a defendant
who has no money, no dollars, the million dollar defendant's
going to get out of jail most likely for almost
anything they're charged with, unless it's murder or something very serious.
And the defendant who doesn't have any money, if you
(46:21):
set a cash bail, doesn't get out for a seat,
I'll ticket.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
What about the probation and parole and how is your
probation and parole over there? Did you really keep an
eye on people? Because it seems to be lacking in
many ways and then other ways it's a design to fail.
How is it done there?
Speaker 1 (46:43):
Though, as just as a general statement, I do want
to say this, the people that I work with are
very committed to doing what they do. I think I
work with some of the best people at what they
do anywhere in this country my circuit, and so I
will defend the people and their personal actions against anyone.
(47:06):
I do believe that our system is set up in
a way it encourages people to not do their job.
And what I mean by that is in probation and
prol and encourages people not to sort of check in
on people or to drug test them, because if they
do drug test them and they find out that they've violated,
they've got more work they've got to do, and then
(47:29):
they have to, you know, file violation reports, and then
they may have to come to court and testify ab
off those.
Speaker 3 (47:34):
Violations, and then they have to you may.
Speaker 1 (47:36):
Have to recommend sending somebody to prison. And so there's
this there's this sort of incentive to to not do
the job, or to not to kind of not I
shouldn't say not do the job, but to just kind
of look the other way and pretend that things aren't
happening that we all know that we all know are happening.
I have some defendance on in my caseload that will
(47:56):
show up to court. They'll be on probation, and they'll
show up to court, and they're noticeably high while they
are in court. And I'll look and see, Okay, when's
the last time this person's drug tested? And they've been
on probation for a year and they've never been drug
tested like zero. That is a failure. And I'm not
going to say who's necessarily responsible for that, but I
(48:16):
think institutionally so as an institution, our Department of Corrections
in Missouri, they continue to claim that they have too
many offenders, we have too many people incarcerated, We need
to let more people out. But if we were going
to do that. We have to be comfortable with people
still being monitored in the community, and that is a
huge failure right now for us.
Speaker 2 (48:38):
Isn't One of the issues with probation and parole is
the informant the way we rely on informance, confidential informance
and snitches that to make cases. And there's people out
there just because they can generate a lot of cases,
they're professional snitches that they're just allowed to do whatever
they want and over and over and over.
Speaker 1 (49:01):
I would say that that's problem Yeah, I would say
that's very problematic. And I will say most of the
probation officers that I work with, if there's somebody that's
working to provide information for whatever case or case is,
if they're working sort of as an informant for say
a drug task force, they are going to want permission
(49:24):
from the judge to allow them to do that. And
so the judges typically have some oversight and some control
over that in our system, the way our system works
here in Missouri other places I am. I know that
there's sort of this kind of unwritten way that things work,
and if there's no paperwork filed, then probation officers don't
(49:47):
find out about it. Or they let it set on
their desk and tell people complete what they're doing, and
then they sort of absolve them of any responsibility they
had in those circumstances because they were providing information. And
the real truth of it is, most of the time,
and what I've seen in cases, there's this illusion out
(50:08):
there that everybody is going to keep their mouths shut
and nobody's going to talk about the things that happened,
or they're not going to admit to doing something wrong.
When people get handcuffed put on them, they find theirselves
in a jail and they're really facing real hard time
in prison. Most people talk, And so I don't know
how effective even the sniches that you say, but the
(50:32):
people that they're informing, I don't know how really effective
those people are anyway, because they're right there involved in
those crimes. And to be real honest, it's happened more
than once where an informant in that situation that I
know of, the informant has been the one that's actually
(50:52):
responsible for things and sort of looped everybody else into
whatever they had going on to try to inform on him.
Speaker 2 (51:02):
Yeah, usually the guy in town that's the most successful,
his crime is also a snitch, you know what I mean?
It has like a get out of jail free card
man literally a card. He has a card of the Kapa.
He's snitching too, you know.
Speaker 1 (51:16):
Uh. And you can usually tell those people whenever they
get booked in when they say, I need to talk
to this cop like this this officer, I need to
talk to that person.
Speaker 2 (51:24):
And it's just orageous to just walking it up. But
what about this too? So we're running out of time? Okay,
And I'm from I moved to Florida from Vegas and
the criminal justice system, not the justice system in Vegas,
the court system in Vegas, even in family court and
civil court and stuff like that. There's just so much
corruption where the judges they refer custody evaluators and forensic
(51:48):
accountant and you know, and they court order these experts
and they're getting kickbacks. You know, what do we do
about a situation like that? There has to be some
way that we can up police that it into a
way with that kind of corruption, right.
Speaker 1 (52:05):
I mean, I would absolutely be fine with judges being
required to publicly file tax returns. I don't think there's
anything wrong with that. I mean, if if they're getting money,
and you know, forensic audits need to happen. I'm perfectly
fine with that. I would be as transparent about that
as I can be, because I can tell you in
Missouri we have some what are called financial disclosures. As
(52:26):
a judge, so you have an obligation on your own
to say, I got money from this person for this service,
or I had a contract for this thing, you know,
for whatever the service was, or for whatever the item was.
I had a contract for that item with this person.
You have to disclose those things as a judge. But
(52:46):
unless something bad happens and it comes to light later,
there's no way to really police that disclosure. And I
think I think we should do better job of I
think with all politicians. If if you're putting yourself out
there publicly and you say I want to represent the public,
that type of transparency is needed, not just with the judiciary.
(53:07):
I think that's needed across all politics. Like we should
not there shouldn't be things that were publicly advocating for
but privately hiding.
Speaker 2 (53:17):
We're talking to Judge Michael Randazzo presiding overshadows from Casts
to Order in the Court. This book is mostly about
his personal life and his heritage and his family and
overcoming adversity and sharing things like that. And you know,
I have my own, my own track. Things that you
got a chance to talk to a judge, I don't
thinks on my mind, But Judge Randazzo, what would you
(53:37):
like to leave us with as we end the sense
of you?
Speaker 1 (53:43):
So, I think if if you read the book and
you're looking for something, you will find it. My wife
likes to read sort of you know, romance novels and
kind of in the fishy shades of gray esque, you know,
kind of that genre. There's not that, but almost anything
else you're looking for it's in there. There's some really
(54:04):
really bad, heartbreaking things. There's some lighthearted moments, there's some
funny moments, and there's a message of hope. There's a
message that no matter how bad your circumstances are, you
can be better and you can do better. And if
for no other reason, you know, I wrote this book
(54:25):
to try to show my kids that in the world,
bad does exist, and I'm not trying to shield them
from that. I want them to know that people that
are their heroes, like you know, my grandpa Nick, he
was sort of this lynchpin of our family. He was
larger than life, and you know, he truly was my hero.
(54:45):
But he had his own flaws and his own problems,
and we shouldn't hide from those things. It helps us
understand who we are if we know who we truly
came from.
Speaker 2 (55:00):
Judge, Michael Randaza, you're such a young guy. You already
wrote this book about the story of your life. But
what kind of ambitions do you have for the future?
Would I plan? Governor? You know, governor my Randazza.
Speaker 1 (55:09):
Right, So, I honestly I am. I'm very happy where
I'm at right now. I love doing what I'm doing.
I think that I'm where I need to be. Probably
should have never been here, but I got here somehow,
and I think I'm where I need to be. I
would have told you in the past that I didn't
have any ambitions to do anything other than just be
(55:31):
a circuit judge. You know, two years ago I would
have said exactly that. But also two years ago, I
had told you that I was never going to write
a book.
Speaker 3 (55:38):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (55:38):
And out of some just dumb luck or just some
weird motivation, I guess I started writing down stories and
those stories became something that I wanted to make sure
my kids knew about, and that just sort of ballooned
into something that was bigger than a project than I
had started. It turned into a book, and I'm happy
to get these things out there.
Speaker 3 (56:00):
But I also tell you that, as far.
Speaker 1 (56:02):
As the ambitions go, I'm not a writer. I'm not
an author. This is not something I'm going to make,
you know, my life's work. I really think that I
can have the biggest impact on people's lives in the
judiciary where I'm at right now, and that's where I
plan to stay. I won't foreclose any you know, I
won't at least preclude myself from doing anything else ever.
Speaker 3 (56:24):
But I'm very happy where I'm at.
Speaker 1 (56:26):
I can do this job till I'm seventy years old,
and if i want to see changes made in our
judicial system, I've got a long period of time to
do it.
Speaker 2 (56:33):
Judjoy and Dazo, you know I have a reputation for
asking the tough question, so I have to ask you
this right before we leave. Have you ever gotten a
call from Uncle Nick or Grandpa and Nick and one
of these guys and tried to get you to throw
one of your daughters at softball games.
Speaker 1 (56:50):
So I mean, I will say that, you know, part
of those motivations going back, part of the motivation for
me going to law school was because I knew I
had this family that was going to need a lawyer.
I know.
Speaker 2 (57:01):
Yeah, but like that goes on on saying, man, we
didn't even have to bring that part up. They must
love having a judgement figet it judge, Thank you so much.
I really enjoyed this, and thank you for being patient
with being a Mike screw up there with the appointment
the other time. I really appreciate that, my friend. Thank
you so much, once again presiding overshadows from cast to
(57:24):
order in the court. Michael Randazzo mean him in person,
October eighteenth, Bismarck Coffee Company and Bismarck, Missouri. Randazzo Law
on Instagram and Twitter, and also Michael Randazzel on Facebook.
Thank you so much,
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