Prof Richard Spence : Antisemitism and WW2

Richard “Rick” Spence is a full professor of History. He specializes in Russian intelligence and military history, and his course offerings include Modern Espionage, Anti-Semitism and the Holocaust, History of Secret Societies and the Occult in History.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
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(02:04):
dot com. You get a copy of my book there,
How to Become a Successful Private Investigator at email revealer
dot com. Okay, let's get our guest off mute here
and we'll get going. We've got a really great show today.
I'm really excited about it. We have a professor from
the University of Idaho. His name is Rick Spence. Professor

(02:26):
Rick Spence, and let me pull us up here. Okay,
let's see. He's a full professor of history. He specializes
in Russian intelligence and military history, and his course offerings
include modern espionage, anti Semitism, and the Holocaust, which is

(02:48):
something I think is we see the rhymes of anti
Semitism today, a history of secret societies, and the occult
in history. Professor Spence, you're there, I am here, ed, Hey,
thank you so much for coming on the show.

Speaker 1 (03:00):
Thanks for having me on.

Speaker 3 (03:01):
Tell us about yourself. Who is a Rexpense?

Speaker 1 (03:04):
Who is Rixpense? Well, let's see. Uh, we'll keep the
biography short. I grew up in the beautiful San Joaquin
Valley in California, not the place that tourists tend to visit.
And I've ended up in the Pacific Northwest, which is
another beautiful part of the country legitimately. And I've been

(03:24):
at the University of Idaho since nineteen eighty six. I
did my penance for some years as the chair of
the department, and I thankfully got out of that a
number of years ago. And I guess I've stayed at
the University of Idaho. Partly Irontel I like you said,

(03:49):
and the other part it is that pretty much. I
get to teach what I and what I want, often
out of the mainstream of what you would expect from
emaic door. So maybe real questions here that people might
be interested in is how does someone get into topics
like this and how do all of those topics come together?

(04:10):
Because you went through some of them, the intelligence, Russian
history as a whole, occultism, secret societies, anti Semitism, I'm
a denominator in that. And the thing is there is
the part of the ban combat denominator, I guess is
just my interest in it. But the simplest way to

(04:33):
put it is that all of those different topics sort
of build on each other and maybe if there's one
thing that I've I don't know, I'll figure it out
and they last almost forty years in academia is that
everything connects to everything else.

Speaker 3 (04:52):
So that is so true. That is so true. And
another thing I always it always pops into my head
is a small world. There's a lot small love than
you think. But to get an idea of doctor Professor Spender.
Some of his books are Secret Agent six sixty six,
Alista Crowley, British Intelligence, and The Occult. So that's right, up.

(05:12):
His is aally. Another one is trusting one the Secret
world of Sydney Riley, and then Wall Street and the
Russian World Revolution from nineteen oh five to nineteen twenty
five set there's a world really eclectic, interesting tapis and
like you said, they all weave together, correct.

Speaker 1 (05:27):
Yeah, in Bolster the Russian Revolution, if abby's that in
and I hope people do. It's not only I think
a good introduction to sort of Russian political and economic
history in the early twentieth century, but American as well.
And that's really what that book deals with, is the
connections really going back to the late nineteenth century all

(05:47):
the way up to the nineteen twenties. I sort of
end the book in some way, sort of arbitrarily in
nineteen twenty five, because you've got to cut it off somewhere,
of the interconnections between American industry and finance and Russian
industry and finance, both before and after the Bolshevi Revolution.
But one of the things that if you're reading that book,

(06:08):
you would notice that a character who pomps up on
that again and in is this guy Sydney George Riley,
which is the topic of an earlier book, The Secret
World of Trusso won the Secret World of Sydney Riley
and and Riley might be a good kind of I
guess the question has back, what gets me interested in

(06:30):
these things? And how did I come to them? Well,
I said everything is connected thing else, and so I
came to them mentally. And let's take something like uh
seek societies, which maybe later in the show we can
define what that is and what it is and because
you have to figure out what you're talking about, but
it wasn't something that I have an interest in. And

(06:52):
another way, in terms of a disclaimer, I don't come
to anything nothing. I think I spent like a mop
Scouts and until I got it, And there's a reason
for that. And the reason is that, basically, you know,
I've never liked people telling me what to do. I

(07:12):
hear that I've never particularly enjoyed belonging to an organization
in which I was subordinated to the authority of somebody else.
So part of what interests me about something like a
secret society, like any kind of organization where you does that,
is that, you know, why do people do that? I mean,

(07:33):
I'm interested in it, not because it's something I want
to be a part of but because I think I
want to understand why other people want to be a
part of it, and I guess I'm still looking for
the answer to that. But I find it kind of
fascinating for that reason, because they're just so different from
what I would want to have. But but once you

(07:53):
begin to notice these things, you notice that they're everywhere,
and not only are they everywhere, but that they're much
more pervasive and I'd argue important than they're generally given
credit for. I mean, there's the obvious way that you
can look at it. You can see how people are connected.
You know, people are connected by family relations, they're connected

(08:16):
by work relations, they're connected by the schools they went to.
There are the visible connections between human beings, and then
there are the invisible or much less visible connections connection
and nexus of connections between people that you don't see
unless you're looking for for them, you know. I mean,

(08:38):
you're a private investigator, so I'm sure you come across
that before. Is that you never really know the kind
of you know. Very often what you see publicly about
a person is like the tip of an iceberg. There's
much much more about them than one can find. So Oh,
I guess I'm always trying to figure out what the
what the whole of that the iceberg helps connect with

(09:00):
each other. Finding connections is always fascinating to me. I
guess another way I could describe it, you know, is
that I love a mystery. I like solving puzzles. I
like being given a kind of conundrum that I have
to try to unravel. And So if I was going
to again take Riley as an example, what do I
find interesting about Sidney Riley? Well, first of all, who

(09:22):
was Sidney Riley? Some people out there might know. Some
people might have seen a BBC British TIMS TV series
made in the nineteen eighties that was shown has been
shown numerous times in American PBS. It's Coliley, Ace of.

Speaker 3 (09:41):
Spies, Okay, okay.

Speaker 1 (09:44):
Yeah, and that's Sam Neil, who's gone on to do
many other things. That was sort of his breakout role,
I suppose, And really that show is what introduced me Ryley,
because I watched that on PBS when I ran back
in the early eighties, and and I was fascinated by

(10:05):
it because you know, I am studying Russian history, and
especially I've been studying Russian history in the Revolutionary era,
and that's when Riley's most active. I never heard of
this guy, I mean, his his name had never come up.
So the first thing I assumed was that this was fictional.
You know, this was a fictional character. He's a scarlet

(10:25):
pimpernel like guy someone has invented. But no, I said,
I began to examine it. Now was a Sidney Riley,
and he really was connected to British intelligence, and he
really was involved in various British and other intrigues in Russia.
So that you know that, in some way was kind

(10:46):
of my way drug to this thing, I suppose because
I became and I still am, I became sort of
fascinated with trying to figure out who this guy really
was and how he fit into these other events, because
he gave a whole side, I mean to historical events

(11:07):
that I thought I knew, but again which I hadn't
realized that I was only looking at that kind of
tip of the iceberg, and that Riley was involved with
the whole variety of clandestine operations. So that got me
started on him. And what I've gradually found out, and
I'm still finding things out, is that the whole portrait

(11:30):
which was created in that series, and the book that
the series was based on, which is also a book
that was written by a fellow with the name of
Robin Lockhart British back in the nineteen late nineteen sixties
call again called Riley Ace of Spies. That book. The
series was based on the book loosely, and but the

(11:54):
book was in many ways the kind of basic document
about who he was. It was a kind of point
of departure for everything else. But here's basically what I
figured out. Almost nothing in the original book, and in
many ways even less in the TV series is true.
There really was a Riley. But the most interesting thing

(12:17):
is that he wasn't really Riley at all. I mean,
here again, it's one of those things that in investigations
I suspect you run across, you know, you find out
that someone is really somebody else, that the person that
you think exists is a kind of creation. And that's
what Sidney George George Riley, as an actual person never existed,

(12:40):
or they existed for a very brief period of time.
The real Sidney George Riley was an Irish infant who
died shortly after birth in the eighteen nineties. That infants

(13:00):
birth record was then used to create a British passport
in the name of Sidney George Riley that was given
to someone else. He was given to a fellow who,
up to that point, and this is nineteen hundred, was
known as Sigmund Georgovich Rosenblum. He was Jewish, he was

(13:23):
from the Russian Empire. He was working in Britain for
various chemical companies, and suddenly he gets a new identity,
which of course is always kind of interesting. But here's
the other thing I figured out that is, was Sigmund
Georgiovich Rosenbloom the original name of this person, And I

(13:45):
don't think it was. I think that was simply an
earlier name that he had borrowed from someone else. So
in other words, if you follow it back, you find
out that, yeah, there actually was born in Russian Poland
at such as such a day and such as such
a place, with parents and relatives a Sigmund Georgiovich Rosenbloom.
But it's not the same person who's using that name

(14:08):
in England years later. So you see one of the
ongoing mysteries about Sidney Riley is who he really was,
and of course, the other question you have about that
is that why is he covering that up? Because you
have to assume that there's a reason why someone is

(14:30):
masking their original identity be behind a whole series of
false identities. And that's one of those things that I'm
working on. In fact, I figured out that there are at
least two or three other names that he used at
any given time. He probably is running a couple of
different identities. So is one of those identities the real

(14:51):
guy or are they all sort of rolls or false identities?
The uses and what's the big secret if there is one?
When we sort of assume that he's covering up. So
the other thing that if you run across the name
Sidney Riley, you'll probably almost always see connected to him.
You go out and google it and you'll run across
these things. Ah, Well, Sidney Riley was a role model

(15:12):
for James Bond. Okay, there's this continual effort to connect
Riley through his work with the British Intelligence to James Bond.
That again is one of those things that makes a
kind of great story. But would you sort of back
engineer it when you follow it back with who eventually
said what and how reliable they are. There's no there there, okay,

(15:34):
And really comparing the two, Bond is a fictional character.
Riley's in essence a fictional character played by a real person,
but there's really not much relation between them. And that's
and even trying to describe Riley as a spy, I
think is a kind of diversion from what he really was.

(15:57):
He's really a a kind of international conspirator on a
on a very wide scale over a fairly long period
of time. And in terms of doing the things you
tend to think the spies do, you know, of keeping
around cloak and dagger, you know, secret inks, to the

(16:19):
rest of it, he really isn't involved in that. He's
often more involved in that realm of negotiating financial and
business deals back and forth between various entities. He always
seems to have his fingers in a variety of things.
Most people who worked with him in business, either, you know,
the general rule was that he was a kind of

(16:40):
a genius in businessman in some ways also a crook,
never entirely trusted. His relationship with British Intelligence is one
in which they never trusted him. They used him, but
they never trusted him. Now that fact is one of
those things that then spread into other aspects of my work,

(17:03):
and it sort of changed the way that I look
at the history of intelligence and the people involved in it.
Because you would assume generally that the trust is very,
very important, that if you're going to employ people as
agents or as informants of assets of any kind, you
have to be able to implicitly trust them. But again,

(17:25):
the reality is that people tend to be more complicated
than that. And the one thing I eventually figured out
is that the British for a relatively brief period of time,
did employ British Intelligence did employ Sidney Riley, not for long,
but in the time that they employed him, they never

(17:47):
trusted him. Now there's some people who trusted him a
bit more than others, but it was always realized that
this was a very dubious person that we're dealing with.
So why on earth would have anything to do with him?
Simple explanation. The explanation is that this person is untrustworthy.
They're probably only out for themselves, you know, in essence,
you should never trust them any further that you can

(18:09):
throw them. But they have sources of information that no
one else has, So that brings us back remember to
what intelligence is all about. Intelligence is about collecting information
and protecting information, getting the other person's secrets and guarding
your own. Anything which facilitates those two missions, you will use,

(18:35):
and you will use people even though you may not
be able to thoroughly trust them. They are used to.
The question here isn't whether or not Riley or someone
like him was whether they were a nice guy. It
was whether or not they were useful. And that I
simply realized was something that comes up again and again

(18:57):
and again and a number of circumstances. It's almost as
if the argument, you know, if somebody once put it,
the one thing that maybe is most reliable about a
person is that you know they're unreliable the person who
is reliably unreliable. It sounds crazy, but it basically works

(19:18):
like this, This person has contacts or information that's useful
to you, but you can't trust them. But you know
you can't trust them. Therefore you never do. You always
keep them at a certain arm's length. You only use
them as far as the circumstances dictates. So that's the
kind of murky world that I sort of plunge into

(19:41):
and there are lots of other characters like that. It's
the same reason. For instance, somebody wondering why on earth
would British intelligence or any intelligence agency ever try to
use someone as notorious as Alistair Crowley, Well, partly because
he was notorious, and for exactly the same reason I

(20:04):
mentioned for Riley. Because it wasn't because they thought that
Crowley was reliable. Sometimes he was, sometimes he wasn't. It
wasn't because they thought he was a nice person. I mean, yeah,
it didn't even matter whether he was the wickedest man
in the world or not. What mattered was whether or
not he could get information or protect information as needed.

(20:26):
Was he useful?

Speaker 3 (20:28):
So we're gonna have to take a commercial break, but
I have a couple of questions for because we've been
talking about the book Trust No One, The Secret World
of Sidney Riley. Now, now this picture on the book,
is that really him? We are we sure that's him?

Speaker 1 (20:40):
That's him, okay, as sure as you can't be of anything.
That's him?

Speaker 3 (20:44):
Okay. And in his public persona, what did he portray
himself as What do he say he did for a living?
What was he portraying himself as doing?

Speaker 1 (20:51):
It depended. Early on, he poured himself. He portrayed himself
as a chemist, which he was in fact. One of
the things that I've discovered that he held under the name
Sigmund Rosenbloom. He held a number of patents for things
like the refining of animal fats and vegetable oils in
the use and paints in soap. I mean he had

(21:13):
a technical education. He had an education in chemistry. Later
on he would bill himself as a businessman and art
dealer in other cases, someone who is a commission agent
for various companies. He was a jack of all trades,
mostly connected to business.

Speaker 3 (21:33):
Though fascinating. Okay, this's good time to take a break.
We've been talking to Professor Rick Spence, University of Idaho.
I've been talking about the book Trust No. One, The
Secret World of Sidney Riley, and I could see he
wants to segue already into Alista Crowley Secret Agent sixty six,
the Cigarettade and sixty six six Alistair Crowley, British Intelligence

(21:54):
and the occult. Oh my god. All right, we'll be
into this and we'll be right back with more. And
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Welcome back to the Operaman Report. I'm your host, private

(26:38):
investigator Ed Opperman. We're here today with the professor, Professor
Professor Rick Spence from the University of Idaho, which is
an everybody already is fascinated by So, Professor Spence, what
do we know anything nefarious that the good old uh'

(26:58):
Riley was doing there anything it was up to it.
We should be a disturbed about.

Speaker 1 (27:03):
Anything nefarious, just about every just about everything. Let me
give me another example, since we're we're on Riley about
about how the connections leave from one thing to another.
So figuring out who this guy is, which I don't claim,
you know, having for twenty five years tried to peel

(27:25):
the you know, to peel the onion on this fellow,
to eventually figure out to get rid of all of
the sorts of various myths that have attached to it.
That's the other thing that I found is that the
kind of do written myth making about him, so it's

(27:46):
not the gears a body or death clear. First, he
disappears around twenty five, and he disappears to Soviet Russia.
He supposedly arrested, but inter thing interest because in Sylvietia
documents there are two execute right either in un shot

(28:15):
very nineteen twenty five, but in a nerves in nineteenwenty seven.
Now you know, yeah, you know you really can't kill
And remember this this is something that there's are two
or the fount the government which give two different things

(28:39):
for it, and there's never for any attempt to recognize
as that sort of heel back.

Speaker 3 (28:44):
They got, I wouldn't say anything.

Speaker 1 (28:47):
As we sort of peel back the onion on and
I would begin to find more and more more connection.
And giver is an investigator. One of things that that
you realized by this is important is the people that
the persons didn't they meet everything do in the way
with who they live next year now, And in many

(29:09):
games to look at that you find out that it's
mundane or just coincidence. Three is off the little connection
significant one of those signis right then, three guys. The

(29:35):
start of World War one, nineteen fifteen, I was out there,
uh to the First World War, the United States, neubral
country where didn't get mixed the stuff atilt in the war,
in the middle of everythin So through fifteen and sixteen
of nineteen seventeen you have itself this kind of secret

(29:56):
battle on between German and another Allysians agents trying to
manipulate the United States into the war or even to
broke worse supplies, to destroy war supplies. And then there
are there's a huge explosions that make play aditionis plus,

(30:17):
which are basically the work of German agents destroying Allied
munitions manufactured in American factories. So and by the way,
Riley comes to the US in nineteen fifteen from Russia,
where he had been living for about a decade plus.

(30:38):
Warren is there to purchase war supplies Bizarist Russian government.
That's this extensible job. And he sets up a company
and he'd begins and he takes out negotiates contracts for rifles,
artillery shells, barbed wire, medical supplies, you name it. And
he makes a lot of money on commissions on these sums. Now,

(31:01):
the little detail which turns out not is the the
ward businessman and is a broker for warhot as he's
working someone who's agent another businessman in Saint Petersburg or

(31:23):
Petri Grazo. And that is a guy called Obram Shivatovski,
now Abram Shivatowski, it turns out is related to somebody.
In fact, he's the uncle of an historical figure that
I bet that most people have heard of. So if
you never heard O'reiley, which you know you might ever

(31:44):
I have, I bet almost nobody's ever heard of Abram Shivatowski.
But I suspect a lot of people have at least
heard the name Leon Trotsky akay. So Trotsky, of course
is the fellow who will ally himself with Lenin in
nineteen seventeen and become basically the second figure in the

(32:05):
Bolshevik Revolution. In fact, it's Trotsky is the guy that
actually organizes the October revolutionary It's not Lenin, it's Trotsky
who does that. So Trotsky is related to Abramshibatowski. In fact,
Obramjivatowski is Leon Trotsky's uncle. And not only is he

(32:28):
Trotsky's uncle, he's one of a whole group of uncles.
Because it turns out that Obram has a brother David,
and a brother Timothy, and a brother Alarion. There are
four Zivatowski brothers. They're all successful businessmen in Russia. They're
all connected to banks and railroads and high they're all
ruble millionaires. So there's an interesting thing for you. Leon Trotsky,

(32:53):
Russian revolutionary revolutionary Marxian socialists, has on one side of
his family a whole constellation of capitalist millionaires. Abram Jivatowski,
and he is also his favorite uncle. In fact, if
you read through Trotsky and Trotsky's autobiography by Life, you'll

(33:15):
you'll find these little snippets early on in his youth
where he talks about his connection to uncle Obram. He
never gives the family's last name. Uh, there's reason for
that because some people might note. You know, Trotsky ran
into this whole problem later on with a guy named
Joseph Stalin, and Stalin then took it upon himself to

(33:36):
essentially physically exterminate everybody who was related to Trotsky. So
if you were at Juvatowsky in the nineteen thirties, it
was perhaps best that no one, you know, you didn't
want to emphasize that you related the Trotsky. But that
wasn't the problem in this period. So here's the kind
of interesting point of this. The man that Riley was

(33:57):
working for in New York was Trotzky's uncle, his favorite uncle.
In fact, that an uncle who supported Trotsky. I mean
comes back to this question, how does xist revolutionaries make
ends meet? I mean, they don't have a job, usually
at least, but nevertheless, they seem to travel from one
place to another and more or less constantly have a

(34:19):
roof over their head and food. Oh. The way way
you generally do that, you have rich relations, You have
people will give you the money you I'm a family
basically is Hamil's Revolutionaries was center family and that was
so there this whole relationship between Tronk and then as

(34:39):
I began to unravel it, I realized that Riley himself,
who remember, isn't Riley and maybe Rosenbloom but could be
a number of other people. Full safe threads in his
life also lead back to so first really work working
for Trotsky's own Abram Shibatowski. Mary's than a woman who

(35:03):
comes from Russia and her original her maiden name was
a Dean or Massino. Wow, what's the significance of that? Well,
you begin to figure it out that the Messinos are
another family that's related to the Hievatowskis and Trotsky. So
my actual suspicion, my kind of operative suspicion at this point,

(35:26):
is that the you know, the so called Sidney Riley
is actually entree into this whole sort of world is
because he is he is related to the Jivatowskis and
possibly to Trotsky. Because it's something I've noticed that Abram
Giebatowski and his brothers and others almost always tend to
employ people who are related to almost everybody that they

(35:51):
work with is a cousin of one degree or another,
or a nephew, and you tend to find this whole
sort of large extended family. So the question that I
have is is all things would suggest that the mere
fact that Riley is employed by them was suggest it

(36:11):
as well. So but that you see is why is
why later on Riley shows up as a prime character
in Wall Street and the Russian Revolution, because, as it
turns out, Abram Shivastowski is connected to Tronsky of supplying
money him even in terms of bringing and before and

(36:32):
after the revolution. So after the revolution, what does Abram
Shuwatowski do. He becomes a Soviet financial agent in France
and in other parts of Western Europe. He's still working
with his nephew. So that's that's how these these things
begin to mushroom in a way in terms of how

(36:54):
to expand. And part of that simply came up with
figuring out what the family relationship was between two people,
and then that expands into other ones. So I guess
that's in some ways how it all fits together.

Speaker 3 (37:09):
So you're saying that these Russian revolutionaries later on had
connections to British intelligence and all kinds of shenanigans. As
you might say, well.

Speaker 1 (37:18):
I mean, here's the other history in terms of the
fundamental mystery about much of Riley's career, the kind of
centerpiece of it is that, Okay, here's a guy who's
in New York. He's working as a war contractor. Oh
and the other thing it's worth mentioning is that Leon
Trotsky himself actually comes to New York briefly in nineteen seventeen,
so before the Tzar falls, which the Bolsheviks have nothing

(37:42):
to do with, but before the Tsarist regime collapses in
the First Revolution in March nineteen seventeen. Well, Trotsky's in
New York. He's living in a fairly nice apartment in
the Bronx. He's writing articles for radical newspapers. He's tried
has somebody supplies him with a car, a private car

(38:02):
and chauffeur to send his wife around town on shopping trips.
Where does that come from? The actually, I can tell
you who that comes from. The fellow who supplied carr
and driver was a wealthy And it sounds like it's
an oxymoron, but it's not. It was a wealthy Marxist

(38:23):
businessman by the by the name of Hammer, Julius Hammer.
Did that ring any bells?

Speaker 3 (38:31):
Armond Hammer, armand Hammer's daddy get out of here? Well
I always had suspicions about armand Hammer. Yeah, yeah, that
guy was always.

Speaker 1 (38:41):
Armand Hammer later the sun almost. I mean, Armen Hammer
spends a good deal of his life as a Soviet
agent of influence, and he learned that from his father.
His father, Julius Hammer, was a medical doctor, but he also,
you know, brand, he was a very good business you know.
One of the things I find, you know, I think
it's even true for Trotsky. A lot of people who
are Marxist revolutiontionaries are are you scratch him, a really

(39:02):
good businessman. And the odd thing is that you find
people who appear to be more or leist, doctrinaire capitalist
businessman who scratched them, and they turn out to be socialists.
So there's there's this huge between the two. I mean,
things that you would assume would be mutually exclusive aren't.

(39:24):
In the same way that you've got trotsky Us millionaire uncles,
and those millionaire uncles in some way help support his
political activities and the same thing, and you know, Julius
Hammer is the same thing. Julius Hammer is a successful
businessman and one of the founding members of the US
Communist Party.

Speaker 3 (39:39):
All right, there you go, well and wait, arm Is
armand amerstolelive. He's gone, all right, is gone?

Speaker 1 (39:46):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (39:46):
I like because those who heard on when I was
a young man. Now, what was his story? He was
a Soviet agent.

Speaker 1 (39:51):
Well, his father enlisted him again in business deals with
the new Soviet government. So if you look in the
night eighteen twenties, Julius Hammer, Julius Hammer Negotia was one
of the first people to negotiate a deal between the
Ford Motor Company and the Soviets. Now there's an interesting relationship.

(40:11):
If you think about it. You've got Henry Ford. And
I don't know what Henry Ford, other than manufacturing cars,
is in many ways best known for the nineteen twenties.

Speaker 3 (40:24):
Maybe the Nazi right, well, you know he was.

Speaker 1 (40:28):
Before there were Nazis. Henry Ford, through his you know,
his whole business empire, becomes an active publisher, promoter of
the protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion. All right,
so let's port of this way. Henry Ford, along with
selling lots of other cars, becomes an active promoter of
anti Semitism. Okay, So while he is giving away copies

(40:53):
of the International jew with every new Ford thing, every
Ford purchased simultaneously with that for and the people around
him are doing business with who I mean, Julius Hammer
and his sons are I mean, they have no religious affiliation.
But where would they come from? Where was Julius Hammer
born Russia? What ethnic community was he born into? Jewish?

(41:17):
So Henry arch anti Semite and apparently the arch anti
commist is simultaneously doing business with Russia jew as agent
for the Soviet government, and he's selling them trucks and
cars and tractors.

Speaker 3 (41:35):
Then let me ask you a question then, was what
is because their motivation was money or because that these
beliefs that they portrayed to the public were deceiveless?

Speaker 1 (41:48):
You know, I mean that's what The part to me
that makes it fascinating is again, why, I mean the
connections are there. The simplest reason, really, I think, is
the one that's the most obvious, but you tend to
think it's more implicated. Why would Henry Ford do business
with people? Otherwise he would detest for the money? I

(42:08):
mean that's that's basically why people in his position do it.
It's all about expanding sales and increasing profits. And really
I think you have to see much more to it
than that, I mean, the connect One of the things
that you get is this, I mean, Ford keep an

(42:29):
eye was also very very happy to sell intructors and
make deals with the Nazis. All right, no big deal
for him, and that's what often much of the attention
comes to. But he also was very interested in making
deals with the Soviets. So, for instance, anybody who's ever
heard anything about Russian Soviet history has probably heard about

(42:50):
certainly Stalin and collectivization. There we go in the nineteen
thirty Stalin unleashes a kind of war on the Soviet
peasantry and he collectivizes Russian agriculture. And the key element
in collectivizing Russian agriculture was the introduction of tractors. So

(43:13):
I don't want to get too far into in a
history course here, but basically the essence of collectivization, the
reason why stop Russian agriculture wasn't to make agriculture more productive,
has nothing to do with that. It was about extracting
labor from the countryside. And moving it into industry. So

(43:34):
in other words, what you had to do is you
had to get a lot of peasants off the land,
and he had to get them into factories, you know,
making things like planes and tanks. But in order to
replace human labor, you replace that with mechanical labor. And
that's where tractors become all important. You know, the tractor
was the sort of symbol of Soviet collectivization. Well, what

(43:55):
do those tractors come from. Every one of those tractors
produced in Soviet plants in the late twenties and the
thirties are licensed from Ford. They are exact copies of
Fords and tractors, and Ford Motor Company made money off
of every single one of them. So here you've got,
in the case of Ford Motor Company, a firm which

(44:17):
sells trucks to Hitler, and it sells tractors and other
trucks to Stop. Why because they are ideologically committed to
either one of them? No, because both of them pay
real money. And there you go.

Speaker 3 (44:32):
Okay, But some will say that some will take that
same information and they'll say, well ed, can't you see
that there's secret societies controlling the both ends right, go
down that road. What do you make of that?

Speaker 1 (44:44):
That is? Is there is there some sort of larger
picture to this? I mean, that's a legitimate question to
ask is there something I mean, you sort of brought
it up before the question. I mean, let mean, I'm
go into what I said before. I think you don't
need anything more than profit to explain it. I mean,
I think that in of itself is adequate. But just

(45:05):
because it's an adequate explanation, or let's put it this way,
just because the explanation fits doesn't necessarily mean it's the
whole one for the right one. And it's another one
of those things that I've sort of gradually learned in
doing this stuff. You know, you develop your theories and
you use those to come to various Never take your
conclusions too serious. I mean, never assume that you've got

(45:29):
all of this stuff. And that's one of the part
that I always keep in mind. I don't necessarily have
it all, and there could be some larger So is
there something beyond Henry Ford? Is there something even beyond
Stalin or Truscky or Riley? This is one of the
questions I do ask myself about Riley as to whether

(45:49):
or not, Yeah, who is he really working for? Is
he just working for himself? Is he working in the
interests of a socialist revolution in Russia? Because it turns
out that right himself was always, despite his pretensions, despite
being a successful businessman, was guess what, a revolutionary socialist
at heart. That's why he would I think that partly

(46:11):
explains why he would essentially ally himself with the Shivatowskis
and Trotsky. So Riley ends up being sent into Russia
in nineteen eighteen, right after the Bolshevik rope. So the
Bolsheviks come to power in Russia October nineteen seventeen, all
hell raxlose. But to keep in mind, it's in the

(46:33):
middle of World War One, and what the Bolsheviks did
was that they immediately take Russia out of the war,
thus ending the whole Eastern Front, thus threatening Britain in
France with defeat or at least with a much worse
military situation. So now, if you were a policymaker, a statesman,

(46:56):
or military official in London or in Paris, I let's
just stick with London. You know what you would want
to do. You know, you either want to get those
damn Bolsheviks out of there and replace and get a
Russian government back into power that's going to resume the war.
Or you want to make some deal with the Bolsheviks
you want to make you want to find some accommodation

(47:16):
with them. So remember, in the immediate aftermath of the
October Revolution, nobody really knows quite what they make of
the Bolsheviks. I mean, nobody had really heard of Lantin
or trust where these were like minor figures, and suddenly
they're sort of thrust the oracle stage because they've now
become masters of the biggest country in the world. So

(47:36):
what are these I mean, that's one of the questions
that people would ask, all right, how seriously are they?
Are they revolutionary? I mean, do they really want to
overthrow every government on earth? Or is that just sort
of talk? Or you know, are they practic you know,
are they fanatics or are they practical men that we
can make an accommodation. So British Intelligence, what would later

(48:01):
become MI six, had a different name at the time,
but let's just use that term for it, recruits Riley
in early nineteen eighteen, gives him a military commission, actually
makes him a lieutenant in the Royal Flying Corps and
sends him back to Russia. Now, the general story is

(48:23):
that he goes back to Russia with the aim of
overthrowing the Bolsheviks, bobbles to go in and to organize
his counter revolution. And so if you'd been lost, you
know Book Ace of Spies, if you particularly look at
that television series, it's all based upon these intrigues in
which Riley is a loyal British agent is trying to

(48:45):
overthrow the Bolsheviks. But in reality that isn't what he
was doing at all. See, he was, in essence a
Bolshevik agent that conned the British into sending him back
into Russia to serve their interests. Now, the reason why
the British would do that is it because they trusted him.
It's because he had a connection. And what was his

(49:07):
connection goes back to what I was talking about before.
Riley had a connection to Trotsky, the Bolsheviks Commissar for War. Arguably,
you know, you know, most of people would argue that
Lenin seems to be the lead guy, but everybody would
recognize that Trotsky's number two. Trotsky is in control of

(49:28):
the Red army. Trotsky also Soviet foreign policy. So if
we could send someone back, remember not somebody we'd like
or trust, but someone who threw past business and personal
connections has a link to Trotsky and can convince him
to bring Russia back into the war on the Allied side.

(49:51):
And that's what Riley and other British diplomats are trying
to do. They were trying to work out a deal
with the Bolsheviks to get them BacT onto the Allied side.
Now that eventually fell through, but it doesn't mean that
they didn't try. And then eventually what Riley does is
that instead of trying to come up with a conspiracy

(50:11):
to overthrow the Bolsheviks, he betrays a conspiracy to overthrow them.
There's a whole huge mess that breaks out in the
summer of nineteen eighteen. It's a thing which historically is
known as the Ambassador's plot. And what it had to
do with is it essentially argued that the British, French,

(50:32):
and the American ambassadors in Russia were all involved in
a secret scheme to overthrow the Bolshevik government. And really
that was pretty much true. They were involved in a
really sort of half baked plan to do that. But
the guy who blows the whole thing up and essentially

(50:54):
destroys the entire Allied intelligence system in Revolutionary Russia as
the man who is supposedly working for it, Riley, And
that's what he also spent a number of years trying
to cover up thereafter. So things aren't what they appear
to be.

Speaker 3 (51:13):
But yet in ace of spies they portray him that
they don't portray him as a thwarting this overthrow.

Speaker 1 (51:20):
No, it gets blamed on somebody else, right, Well, that's
what you have to, really blamed it on somebody else.
I mean, they actually, the Bolsheviks came up with somebody
to blame it on. They blame it on a French journalist.
I mean, here's here's the explanation for this. Okay, there's
going to be a secret meeting at the American consulate
in Moscow, and they are going to be representatives of

(51:42):
French and British and American intelligence there. So you're going
to bring all of your key intelligence agents together in
one place, which is a bad idea. And then for
some reason you're going to let this French journalist named
Renee Marshawn hang around even though you know that this
fellow is a pro Bolshevik, that is, he is a

(52:05):
left wing French journalist, a reporter for various French papers,
who was there, who for some reason is now brought
in is what should be the most secret meeting you
would want to have? And you know, the idea is that, oh, yeah,
we saw him sort of eavesdropping and making notes, but
nobody stopped him. Okay, nobody put a bullet through his
head right there and then later so he becomes the

(52:27):
perfect guy to blame it on. Now, the interesting thing
is it eventually comes out, is that Renee marchand wasn't
even that's just invented later on to put someone there,
because you had to have someone who would have had
access to all of these secrets and could have betrayed them,
because if you don't have that, then it all kind

(52:50):
of begins to point in Riley's direction. Why, because he's
the only one who had connections in all of those areas.
He's the only guy who could have bed the whole
thing because he was the only one who had, you know,
his sort of threads going out in each of those areas.
So you come up with a Patsy I guess that's
as good a name as any to blame it on.

(53:11):
And Riley manages to calm the British for a few
more years. In terms of that, he's working for them
all the time, by the way, recruiting Soviet moles inside
British intelligence.

Speaker 3 (53:24):
Incredible fascinating stuff.

Speaker 1 (53:26):
Man.

Speaker 3 (53:27):
I wish I could take a couple of years off
and come up during the university. No, I really do, Man,
I wish I could. I would just love to really
just you sound like you teach a great class too.
I would just love to really immerse myself in this
kind of thing. But we can find a lot of this,
say and trusting no One the secret world of Sydney
Rolly and I suspect as well too in Wall Street
The Russian Revolution nineteen oh five to nineteen twenty four five.

(53:49):
We're here today with the Professor Rick Spence. We're going
to take a commercial break, and when we get back,
I want to really want to get into Secret Agent
six six Aliston Crowley, British Intelligence and occult and Secret
Society and all that other funds fun games and surprises
here on the out of the Red. It's kind of

(54:11):
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Speaker 3 (58:44):
Okay, welcome back to the Opperaman Report. I'm your host
private investigator at Opperman with the Professor Richard Spence. Richard B.
Spence is that you can find him on Amazon. Richard B.
Spence talking about his books on Wall Street in the
Russian Revolution nineteen oh five to twenty five, Trust No One,
The Secret World of Sydney Riley, a mysterious character in

(59:06):
history and the secret Agent six x six Alistair Crowley,
British Intelligence and the occult professor Spence. What can you
tell us about Alistair Crowley and his involvement with British Intelligence? Okay,
what's going on with this guy?

Speaker 1 (59:22):
There's a there's a le question. Yeah, I guess I'll
start out with how, yeah, how I got interested in
Crowley as well? So again, I gosh, you know, I'm
not a follower of Alistair Crowley. I don't make any
antestations for the reality of his mystical experiences or blens

(59:45):
of those those mystical experiences. It could be one or
the other. That's not really what I'm interested in. So
could you know, summon demons? But I was interested as
to whether or not he had, as he played at
various points in his life, he had had had while

(01:00:08):
in the United States, really ship with because probably especially
when he got in trouble for something or or when
he was accused of doing emmotly anti British treason hissings,
which whatever it was that I did in America during

(01:00:32):
the war. No, I appeared to you know, writing anti
British property a magazine. I was doing this constructions from
his Majesty's government that I was English no matter what
outside appearances were, I was always working for England. Now

(01:00:55):
that was one of those things that it was truly dismissed.
I mean, I'm not even I don't think many of
the people who considered them supposed to be fans or
foul followers alis or correctly really took that seriously. And
I can't say it either. But one of the things
things that I knew, Remember, I was working on this
book about Riley and his activity in World War War

(01:01:18):
one m and I was in that core. Of course,
I was the idea that Riley was connected even then,
and he begins this kind of heedful depression of British intelligence.
Now I knew that Cully was New York at the
same time. So here I've got two people, one who
I know was connected to British US and others who

(01:01:40):
claimed to be connected to British intelligence. So ask YOURSELFLF,
could there be some kind of crossover between them? You know,
I got into a scene just looking for some kind
of action. So one of the things for anybody out
there who wants to research inteligence history be able to

(01:02:00):
do research size and secret operations here's where the first
real teachers. The United States, Britain and a number of
other countries have things that you can call free freedom
of information acts, and the idea that many people have
is that makes all government documents open, that you can
appeal to have something opened up. But you know, almost

(01:02:22):
every case, and certainly in the Britain and American cases,
is anything which is deemed be intelligence related or security
related is exempted from those rules. So intelligence agencies bligantly
have a Chinese wall between themselves and the outside world.

(01:02:42):
And there's a reason for that. I mean that the
very simple reason, and you know the argument, and retire
from British intelligence who put it to me quite quite simply.
You know that we're not an archiving agency. That's not
what our function is. Our function isn't going to collect
stuff and store it away so that you can look
at it. I mean generally, remember, we're collecting stuff regarding

(01:03:03):
stuff we don't want other people to see, and we're
getting things from other people they don't want us to see.
So the whole idea that we're some sort of public
agency and we just make this available, it goes against
the whole grain of what the organization is about. So
I want to do research on spies. The big problem
you're going to have is that there's very little original

(01:03:23):
material which is available in less those agents, out of
kindness of their hearts, want to make available to them.
And here I would continue that they almost doing that
with the kindness their hearts. So if they're making stuff
available to you, they want something in return. Never forget that. Now,

(01:03:45):
sometimes it's something you can accommodate, you know, like letting
them see a copy of your bad or something isn't
aware of it. But there are a few exceptions to that,
and one of them go about it. He said. Back
in World War One, before the FBI really existed as FBI,
before there was a CIA, before they were in NSA,

(01:04:06):
before the US really had any kind of national intelligence service,
it kind of drafted the USRB intelligence during the war
to serve that function. So during World War War One
you get this thing that's called THEND The military Intelligence
really is just the army's gu which is kind of

(01:04:28):
bloated up for the war in order to handle most
domes secure. And that agency later became defunct. All of
its records from that period at least through the early
twenties areasify and guy for free, so you could go there.

(01:04:50):
But the visit came nineteen seventeen, huge, now three five
card some free. I backed in all the investigations they
were handling, and you know, for someone like me that
that's like the holy grail to go through and look
at who was there. So the thing I knew was

(01:05:11):
that the M I D records were available for that
period and that if and what I wanted to find
out is whether or not Alistair Cruley had ever come
under suspicion. So if he was really involved in germ
profits again, he should have. And so I sent off,
you know, the National Archives to see if there was
a file. There was one. It was a very big one.

(01:05:34):
In fact, it's only about thirty pages long, and you know,
most of it is isn't terribly interesting, but it is sometimes.
You know, one of the things ins of his historical
Risks Others says that you can spend you know, one
of the one of the things historians do is they
spent two part of our life setting in archives. Look, okay,

(01:05:55):
hundreds of hundreds of pieces. Most foot again won't have
anything at work. But you're like a prospector. What you're
looking for is that nugget. What you're looking for is
that page or that paragraph or that sentence in that
paragraph that will provide you with some real information. So
here in Crowley's little file from the Military Intelligence Division,

(01:06:17):
I found out that, Yeah, he came out of their suspicion.
And in fact, at one point in nineteen eighteen, they
were thinking about arresting him because they knew that he'd
written pro German propaganda and he seemed to be associating
with questionable people. So they were ready to pick him up.
But they decided that they would make an inquiry with

(01:06:38):
the British consul in New York. And here I'll actually
read from you the report the reply they got from this.
Let's see, they're talking about Alister Crowley's subject, who had
been formally been investigated by the Justice on charges of
being a German spy. Now that's kind of interesting because

(01:07:00):
it means the mid when they started their investigation, found
out that the US Department of Justice had already investigated
him but apparently hadn't done anything about it. Oh see,
you find out that somebody else looked into him. It
was determined continue the quote here that Alistair Crowley was
an employee of the British Government at present in this

(01:07:23):
country unofficial business of which the British Consul New York
City has full cognizance. It was found that the British
government was fully aware of the fact that Crowley was
connected with German propaganda and it received money for writing
anti British articles. So what did the British told the
Americas to do? Back off? Wait?

Speaker 3 (01:07:43):
Wait, wait, wait wait, The British were paying him to
write anti British articles.

Speaker 1 (01:07:47):
No, the Germans were paying him to write but it was.

Speaker 3 (01:07:49):
Still under the British employment.

Speaker 1 (01:07:51):
But the British knew about this, and they and they
were they didn't have a problem with that, which, in essence,
I mean, you know, the key line of this is
that he is an employee of the British government in
this country on official business of which the British Consul
New York City is full cognizance. Notice the fact that
they don't tell you exactly what the business is. OK.

(01:08:11):
But what this did, what that one basic paragraph did,
is that it meant that when Crowley later claimed that
I was working for the British government in New York
during the war. He wasn't lying. Now it still leaves
a big question what exactly was he doing? What was
the official business that he was part of. Well, initially,

(01:08:32):
you know, I'm working in this book on Riley, so
I don't have time to go too far to this,
but I figured, you know, this is kind of interesting.
It reveals that Crowley I was telling the truth about
something to some degree. So I wrote up a little
article about it. And that article was published in an
academic journal. I think it was the Journal of Intelligence
and International Journal of Intelligence Encounter Intelligence. And here's one

(01:08:55):
of those things about publishing stuff in academic journal almost
as good as speaking a hole in the backyard and
bearing it as a way of fighting or a search.
And I'm not trying to be too down, yeah, but
the reality is is that most academic research and history
other stuff never gets read by people. Uh, it tends

(01:09:15):
not to be And this, you know, this is one
of the reasons why uh, you know, it's one of
the reasons why I'm doing this show, for instance, and
then I will do other shows, because I think it's
important to try to make more of a pubblic outreach
with history. I mean, history is not only interesting, but
as you know, things happened in the past. You know,

(01:09:36):
the present that we live in is just where the
past had gotten to by that point. So if you
want to understand the world you live in now, you
need to have some understanding as to how it got there.
And the problem problem a lot of stuff that passes
for history at least show those is that the reason

(01:10:03):
one is for hissing he's a history. It's sort of
you know, propaganda isn't expertly not cool story store, so
I think that they're you know, to make a large
or there's things ID for then send it to uh

(01:10:27):
In the article, you know, the basic conclusion of the article.
But well look I was telling the sources here and
I left it and when in time I wasn't interesting
to go any further. But that article about to sort
of sort of early in the period of the internet,
well broke year. It was around nineteen ninety and it

(01:10:50):
was quite what it is now. But it began to
be spread around, okay, people who are basically copying and
pissing it from one button board to another. And on
one of the things, you know, what but I see
is that uh elis well, you in a household name
nevertheless has early longmember people all around world who were

(01:11:13):
interested in him as a followers, the people who lead
the genius that he raised spiritually. Here there are the
most evil, bold, none the less they're found with him
or another. Started getting reissants to that, which was a
usual thing. I mean, general academic ar publicaians don't really

(01:11:37):
draw a lot of response. So I started getting letters
and emails from people saying, I read your article, I
thought it was interesting. Can you tell me any more
about it? So you're going to dig into it more?
And so there was this kind of growing course of
people who are saying, there's more of a story here,
don't why don't you look to it? Why don't you
dig into it? Well, all the time I finished the

(01:11:59):
Royal Early Book, I already had another project I was
going to work on gotten back to You by way,
because I got completely distracted into digging more into Crowley's
activities and especially connection with intelligence, and so I didn't
think at first that there was going to be a book,
And guess what there was? Uh? And again this is

(01:12:21):
again one of those things that for anybody who reads
the book, I think you know if you're if you're
interested in Crowley or if you've never heard of him before,
I think you're going to find it a kind of
interest read. It's also again another topic that I have
a lot more little details in it. Them along, there's
always sort of learning more stuff. So what essentially is
Secret Agent six sixty six about? And by the way,

(01:12:44):
the book has the essentially the same title as the article,
because really, yeah, I just couldn't come up with that one.
I still think that that was a kidnaptych of THEO.
So what I began to do is that really just
looking at activities in World War One New York. That

(01:13:07):
was the only thing I'd paid attention to before you
go back and then you go forward. So if there
was more to some sort of you know, if there
was a larger framework to this intelligence connection, it should
have predated and it should have followed the careers. So
I went back to his youth. I looked at his family,

(01:13:28):
his education, and again I began to pay attention to
people that he knew. And that was another point. You know,
all through his life who was close to him, who
sort of you know, insinuated them into a circle. And
one of the things you began to find here is
that you looked into each of these people. Is most

(01:13:48):
of them had their own connections to colations. Now, the
Curleys seemed to have been pretty much surrounded by people
who had intelligence canctions from early only from about the
time he was in Cambridge University in the eighteen nineties
and the late eighteen nineties all the way two. So,

(01:14:10):
and then you began to look at at where he
was and what he did and and how his troubles
For instance, Uh, I'm gonna give you an example, which
is to discussed the sem degree in the book Crowley.
You know, the general image that we have of him
today is I don't know, kind of a job of

(01:14:31):
the hout type character. You know, he's generally imagined as being,
you know, some version of Sydney Green Street, urbidly obese,
they bulbuled ahead. Uh. The picture that most people have
of Ulster Crowley is a little picture that shows have done,
you know, up in the corner of Sergeant Pepper's lonely
Heart's band all them. But that's as the younger man.

(01:14:55):
He was really quite different. Friend, And what are the
things I think off uncreated generally, but Prole is that
clan mountain climber Uh. As a young young man, he
was Catle. And this is the guy who was one
of the first people to attempt to climate to uh

(01:15:18):
you know not you know, a certain sort of anatism.
And students gave him of this. They get more to
this than than the kind of clan overtun that he's become.
And so, you know, about a decade or so before

(01:15:38):
the First World War, Crowley goes on this sort of
extended hiking trip the best way I can describe it,
through southern Chiat. He starts out I think Burma, and
he winds along and what would be the border area
between you know, Vietnam Thailand and today is so of

(01:16:02):
the Golden Triangle territory. And the Golden Triangle is of
course noted today in the vision of opium. And guess
what at the time that Crawley was going through there,
throughout this whole region in southern China and northern Indo China.
That's when the massive cultivation of opium begins. And there

(01:16:24):
are also lots of questions about influence. So the British,
for instance, we're quite concerned about the French trying to
carve out a sphere of influence in southern China. So
here again I guess to give some background to it.
You know, today we think of China as being a
powerful country and becoming more powerful by the day it appears.

(01:16:46):
But back in the early twentieth century, China is is weak.
I mean, despite its size and its population is it
is a very very low point in Chinese territory and history.
And this is when you know, the British extort control
of Hong Kong, and the British get control of qing Tau,

(01:17:07):
and the French control of this and that in powers
and the Japanese are all going in and basically carving
up China. They're establishing spheres of influence throughout the country.
So in the period that Crowley's off wandering through these
border areas in southern China, there's a kind of secret
battle going on as to whether or not British or

(01:17:29):
French influence is going to predominate. And even as Crowley
describes it, what does he do as he's traveling through
the area. Well, one of the things Crowley always did
when he traveled. In fact, he did this in a
kind of almost ritual basis, he kept diaries. He kept
voluminous permanent personal diaries of where he went and who

(01:17:50):
he meant and you know, he'd Ben called them his
magical diaries. But basically there are a record of all
of his connections in all of his travels. And the
one thing that that showed to me is that whatever
other purposes had that Crowley was a very acute observer,
he paid attention to them. And as he's traveling through

(01:18:14):
southern China, well, on the one hand, I don't know,
maybe he was doing it because he couldn't think of
anything better to do, but he's also taking careful notes
of what he sees and what the conditions are and
what the attitude of the locals would be, and each
stopped to visit the Dinish Climac representatives there, I don't know,

(01:18:35):
probably to hand off the reports that he was compiling.
So there was a case of where something that on
the one hand looks like it was a kind of
casual trip taken by someone for entirely personal reasons, when
you began to look closely, he noticed that this was
something in which someone was actually sort of taking notes

(01:18:56):
about where they were and had continue his contact with
British diplomatic and intelligence agents the whole way there, and
that was a kind of new way of looking at
what it was it Crowley was doing. The same thing
comes up in a very different circu in the early
nineteen twenties, around nineteen twenty two nineteen twenty three. Crowley

(01:19:21):
ends up in Sicily, you know, study Sicily, and it's
there that he sets up one of his most you know,
little infamous experiments, a thing called the uh the I
kind of commune to his newd caterd to his new
occult religion, the Lima. Really it was an old run

(01:19:43):
down farmhouse which we'd pretty pretty much turned was sort
of the nineteen twenties version of a hippie commune, complete
with poor hygiene and clothing optional. And he attracted an
number of follower were there, and he had great plans
for turning the stent to do and I kind of
you know, flemic sinters in some ways. Of course that happened.

(01:20:05):
The whole eventually failed and fell apart. But the main
thing that eventually happened, the cause that was that the
Italian authorities, and them right Italian authorities kicked Crawley out
of the country. So Brusilini and his fascists only came

(01:20:29):
to power how Crawley was there. They came to power
in the end of nineteen twenty two. I was Muslini's
march on Rome, were in Midas, being in the making
him Brian star, and the rest, they say, is history.
So the fascists were just sort of established our in
Italy and they're trying to clamp it down and everything,
and they're they're fairly concerned about FIGN influences. So they've

(01:20:49):
got kind apparently this kind of crazy englishmen is able
to take it and his naked followers who are doing
weird things in this firm house in Sicily. So they're
naturally curious and they begin to investigate the reasons for
kicking Crawley out. That the Italian gave was believe that

(01:21:09):
the immoral activities were taking place there that he was
to blame for allthough this is kind of interesting. The
Italian Yeah, they don't take followed up, which to me
suggests that they really didn't care for too much. Wese's
weird which people were doing there, but they wanted to
Crawley out of the way, and the Italians it also

(01:21:30):
revealed that they found what they described as British intelligence
documents in Crolic's personal apartment that in going through his
paper they don't define exactly what they are, but we
found in the British intelligence documents in Croley's possession. Now,
one of the things that becomes pretty clear after that,

(01:21:51):
if you look at his connection with British Intelligence is
that they really pull he screwed up in some way.
And I think the simple section of that is that
he's screwed up by doing the one thing they were
ever supposed to do, which is to leave confidentially lying
around where people can find them. So he kept on out.

(01:22:13):
Maybe it's because he's high on heroin much of the time,
which also doesn't speak we Nevertheless, that was then the
happens really that he was a spot, and I think
they had probably pretty good reasons for suspecting that. Turns
out that one of the one of the people that

(01:22:34):
Crowley had some contact with was well, there was the
British consul. Here's another British consul in the nearby Sicilian
town of Palermo. All right, a guy whose last name
and whose name was Reginald McBean right, not mister bean
but original McBean, but close enough. So Crowley over here

(01:23:00):
is in his commune with his naked followers, and that's
not to and he goes. He visits Pollermo regularly and
he has meetings with the British consul. Why is he
doing that now, Reginald McBean isn't just the British Consulate.
Here's where things get kind of interesting, and here's where
our little friend's secret society is. Turns out, Reginald McBean

(01:23:24):
is a British diploma bat but he is a card
caring member of number of Sikh societies. One of them
is the Theosophical Society. Okay, I don't know how many
people have heard that still around the day. Theosophy he
was founded back in the nineteenth century by a Russian
woman the name of Helena Blavati, and she claimed to

(01:23:47):
communicate with ascended masters. I don't know, Bahamas floating over
to him. He is somewhere. They gave her nopli petting messages,
and she knew all the secrets of human history, and
he turned into a fairly lucrative movement. There are people
who still argue today to whether Bolovotsky was a bling fraud.
But nevertheless there were people who By the way, if

(01:24:11):
my sort of examination of things like secret societies and
occult groups has taught me anything about this is that
you can sell virtually anything to anybody.

Speaker 3 (01:24:20):
That's the truth. A sucker born every minute. That someone
might have said, we're born every minute.

Speaker 1 (01:24:25):
And you know, I'm not going to pick on any
particular thing. I'm just saying that, you know, there are
people who will fall for it, and it will pay
good money to fall for so. So the other interesting
thing about Bovat, you know, just to show these connections
and that it's not just Crowley. You know, the other
thing that Helena Blovotsky, the founder of theosophy, was at

(01:24:45):
the same she was of Russian intelligence. Digit In fact,
there's a whole letter in which she offers her services
to the Tsaris government that while pursuing these spiritual pursuits,
I can collect all kinds of information and deliver it
to you. While now see, the thing is is that
Crowley is not a one off. The connection between apparent

(01:25:09):
occultism and less apparent intelligence activities are something that run
through It's everywhere. These two things continually lead back and
forth on and part of the reason is that, you know, Blavatsky, supposedly,
in her study of Buddhism and Hinduism, made trips to India,

(01:25:30):
and that fit perfectly with the interest of Russian intelligence,
which was always interested in what the British were up
to in India. Therefore, the two things simply melded together
in the same way that Crowley's tripped through southern China
fit perfectly with British interests and trying to figure out
what the French were doing and what was the size
of the opium crop that was being produced in those areas.

(01:25:53):
So the British consul in the early twenties in Palermo,
a man with us Crowley had as regular contact, is
not just a theosophist. He's not just a follower of
the Secret Society. He's the head of the Theosophical Society
in Italy. But that's not all. He also is the

(01:26:13):
head of a particular Masonic right. Well, first of all,
he's a Freemason, but then pretty much everybody was. But
he also is the kind of grand of the Egyptian
Masonic Right of Memphis and Miswriting. Now, that again is
one of those things that I think most people, you know,

(01:26:34):
most people have probably heard of freemasonry, Egyptian freemasonry wants
that Well, it's one of those things that some Masons
recognize as legitimate as some don't, because it's you know,
it's one of those things that freemasonry is a Whatever
freemasonry yours might be isn't necessarily what others have. It's
it's a it's not a brand name. It's a generic

(01:26:58):
that many people use and some lloyd in different ways.
So I would just say that anyone doing research and
that if you run across references to freemasonry, you need
to look further than that name and figure out exactly
what type is being involved, because there are lots of
different types. So min and misery is this kind of

(01:27:29):
higher So I don't I don't go into to this,
but you know standard blue LA free masonry degree. Uh,
and then you become a master Mason one two, three
and young that because a student there is a right right, rush, right,

(01:27:53):
mimi and the other way by. Some of them recognist
each other, and some of them centered in your europe
plandet than uh, there's no fund raiment and in the
right how they looked like people sort of Marie because
you know, more conciles and you get more sort of

(01:28:14):
jeweled pins with them. I mean, I think for a
lot of people that's what it is, but there's something
a little important for the rest of them, and more
secretation membership is much much more selecutive. So for instance,
so cards, you can't even get into the skin unless

(01:28:34):
you are already a man. You have to complete the
first degrees and cause the more more selective part secret
society and funding societies are kind of proteach. First of all,
most of them are secret in the sense that nobody's

(01:28:57):
about them. Mhm. I secret societies to be perfect example,
openly they're there, they're not y hot. But the secret
partiety or parents, he is what takes space within the

(01:29:19):
lodge or more importantly, white play in the lodge once lodge,
meeting people because he typically do whether it's the opposite
for a free scenery, the Scottish right age can right.
Whatever you do, you sectively recruit. That's a key point
in the secret. So society recruitment is selective. They don't

(01:29:42):
take everybody. They're choosing. Some are more choosy thither, but
they take this persistent and they don't use someone else.
So the why to create within the society or even
in individual, older group, whatever it's called. You create like

(01:30:03):
minded people. I mean people who probably going to be
recruited into that group are the ones that the people
who are already there find simpatios. They're injury and when
you keep an eye that in most of these ass
is one negative vote can disqualify a person for membership.
You see why it is very important that they seems

(01:30:24):
to be like minded with the rest. So your group
sort of like minded people and they come into a
private environment where they swear binding loads of loyalty to
each other and to the organization. You swear them to secrecy. Now,
one of the things you've created there, aside from whatever

(01:30:46):
the organization does itself, you know, whatever its doctrines are,
and its meetings and the rest of that, you have
created a select group of people sworn to secrecy. Now,
imagine what o their uses You could put that to.
One of the things that you found frequently is that

(01:31:08):
Masonic or other logics that secret societies are used as
the incubator for political activity, may become sort of peatree
dishes for revolution because they're perfect for and Remember that
doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the doctrines that
the society itself is preaching. It has to do with
the people who are in it. It has to do

(01:31:31):
for instance, generally speaking, in Masonic logies, you're not supposed
to talk about religion or politics. You know, there's supposedly
topics you're not supposed to go into, and for the reasons,
they can cause arguments. But again, it's not necessarily what
happens meeting, but what happens later. Maybe you've created a
community of people that can meet under other circumstances. Those

(01:31:51):
oaths of secrecy don't just extend to the meeting itself,
but extend to all of their activities. So if other
people are brought into this who then become involved in
a political conspiracy, become involved in hatching plans for a revolution,
it's a perfect place to do it. I mean, you know,
the one of the things, if you're going to plan

(01:32:12):
a revolution, you need a certain amount of secrecy because well,
let's put it this way. Every revolution is based on
conspiratorial action. It has to be. And that's true for
the French Revolution, the American Revolution, the Russian Revolution, any
of them. All revolutions have to be plotted in secret.
Putting in secret, you're going to be hanging at the

(01:32:34):
end of a rope pretty quickly. Revolutions are by their
nature conspiratorial enterprises, and secret societies are the perfect cover
for those activities. So how does that get us back
to Reginald McBean and the Theosophists and the Right of
Memphis and Misrael. Well, Reginald McBean was friends with an

(01:32:57):
Italian Sicilian nobleman the name of the Duke de Cicoro,
and the Duke Dissoro was also a Theosophist. He was
also an Egyptian freemason. He was involved in other secret
societies as well, you know, a full born occultist, you know,
very similar to with a wide range of interests. But

(01:33:19):
he was also an important figure in Italian politics. And
as it turns up sorrow a first kind of befriended Mussolini,
but then he turns on it because of political immy.
The Italians, that is the Fascist attack proley out as

(01:33:40):
a suspected British spy and the reason and what they
really are suspicious about are his connections to McBean and
McBean's connections to cesorrow, because I think in some way
the British are mixed up with trying to support anti
fascists through these secret societies. You know, in other words,
things that otherwise might look sort of eaten actually have

(01:34:01):
a more political purpose. All that kind of comes to
ahead probably is kicked out, I think in twenty three,
but a few years later, in nineteen twenty six, somebody
tries to assassinate Benito Mussolini. And then somebody turns about
out to be not an Italian but a British woman,

(01:34:24):
and furthermore a British Theosophist by the name of Violet Gibson.
So you can imagine how some creative Sussolini's secret police
might begin to wonder. And by the way, Violet Gibson
is a member of the Theosopist and it turns out
she knew Reginald McBean, and she also has links to

(01:34:44):
the Duke, to Sigaicero. And what the Fascist police began
to think is that there's all some sort of you know,
anti fascist plot which is operating under the cover of
these irregular Masonic lodges and Theosophical Society, and that Violet
Gibson would recruited to try to kill Mussolini. Now, eventually

(01:35:07):
the Italian police come to the conclusion that now she's
crazy or that's the general, and they again kick her
out of the country. But the little details in that
is that what they suspected. This is kind of interesting,
and I emphasized the words suspected because as as far
as they could go is that she had been hypnotized

(01:35:27):
into making the attempt. I see, this kind of takes
us off into kind of like mk ultra territory in
nineteen twenties Italy. Specifically, they got the idea that she'd
been hypnotized at no. But it also led them back
to a question. Okay, I don't know who was it
that could possibly be an expert on hypnosis. Guess who
that was?

Speaker 3 (01:35:48):
Mister Crowley.

Speaker 1 (01:35:49):
Ali, So if you wanted to and Crowley was. Crowley
was a practiced hypnotist. He knew how to hypnotize people individually.
He also loved you know. His idea was to invite
people over for dinner and then to gradually hypnotize all
the guests around the table, basically just to see if

(01:36:10):
he could if he could do it. I mean, here,
here's an example of something that Cruley would do. And
this goes back again to World War One New York
and later Curly was. You know, one of the things
he has a deserved reputation for is being one of
the pioneers in recreational drug use. Except for him, it
wasn't recreational. It was more religious. I suppose, you know,

(01:36:33):
Drugs like ether, which was apparently his favorite mesculated were
used in his ritual in order to create an enhanced
psychedelic state that would open him to the higher powers,
or I don't know, just have fun. Take your pick.
So one of the things that Crawley liked to do

(01:36:53):
was to dot. It was to invite people over for dinner.
And apparently he was a fair and mean book and
fixing curries. He could fix you out. He'd learned this
and his travels in the East, and so he would
fix a highly spiced meal, which you know, if anybody
don't know that, what will invite you over for dinner
and gives you a highly spiced meal. Here's something to

(01:37:14):
be put on. Because the idea is that they're trying
to disguise he would be in various doses of mescaline
and by the guest question, might come up. Where on
earth would he get mescaline? You know? And in nineteen sixteen, well,
it turns out that the active ingredients and paeote mescaline
was synthesized by Park Davis Pharmaceutical Labs in Michigan around

(01:37:39):
that time. What Alistair Crowley did, He simply went to Detroit,
went to the Park Davis labs and bought a big
bag of mescaline because you know, there was absolutely no
restriction of it. He's got like a pound of mescaline
that he's carrying around everywhere, so he's got plenty of this,

(01:38:01):
So that's why he came. But he would he would
dose his guests and he would keep notes on this. Again,
he's fastidious notekeeper. He would note how many people were there,
how large they were, male or female, what the particular
dosage was, and then he would set back and watch
what the effects were. And he was keeping notes on

(01:38:22):
the effects of a psychedelic drug on different subjects under
different circumstances and trying to see how they came out.
So here's the question. Was he doing that just because
he was curious or was he doing that to collect
information that might have been useful in other circles he'd
some point down the line. So it's one of those

(01:38:45):
little details that if you look at his what he
was doing a few years before, and then you look
at a later accusation that he was involved in hypnotizing
or allegedly involved and hypnotizing this woman to carry out
an assassination. You know, I don't know whether he really did,
but it's an intriguing possibility. And it simply another indication

(01:39:06):
is how if you begin to simply consider the possibilities
of what someone is doing, that what you see is
not everything. There a whole variety of vistas tend to
open up.

Speaker 3 (01:39:20):
Let me ask a quick question before you get because
almost weren't out of time. Did you ever look into
the whole connection between a Crowley and Pierce Bush's mother,
Barbara Bushes?

Speaker 1 (01:39:32):
There we go, that would have come out.

Speaker 3 (01:39:34):
Sorry, Pauline Pierce, who'd you go up with that?

Speaker 1 (01:39:37):
Pauline Pierce? You know whether or not Barbara Bush Alister
Crowley's illegitimate man. And I remember that very well because
I was on a I can't remember what the show was,
it was a fall and uh, you know the interesting
thing about that is you never know what question people
are going to ask, and I never heard of that before.
And someone goes, have you heard about Barbara Bush being

(01:39:57):
Alistair Crowley's daughter, and that you know, No, no, that's
a new one. So I was intrigued by that one.
It's an interesting story, but I will absolutely guarantee you
that there's nothing to it.

Speaker 3 (01:40:09):
Oh really, no, no, there's and yeah, and I didn't go.

Speaker 1 (01:40:15):
Into the idea that there there wasn't necessarily anything to it.
Now true, Barbara Bush, you know, if you if you
give her a ball, you know, pointed Crowley like Ed.
You know, if you imagine her as the job of
the hut like Croley, then you can imagine there's all
you really have to do is to look at a
picture of her and her actual father, who I think

(01:40:35):
is Mervin Pierce, and you'll see him much stronger and
all those you know, pictures are a much stronger resemblance.
She looks like her dad, Alistair Crowley. The other thing
is that for this to happen, her mother was supposed
to go to Paris and she was hanging out and
you know, and and she was impregnated by Alistair Crowley.

(01:40:55):
But but the timing on on Barbara Pierre, you know,
on Barbara's birth doesn't really match with the time that
Crowley and she would have been there. Furthermore, and looking
at passenger records, and I spend way too much of
my time looking at passenger records. You know, Barbara Pierce
never makes those or whether her mother never makes it travels,

(01:41:15):
is never anywhere near Paris at the time that she
could possibly have been impregnated by Alistair growing all right,
so the timing just doesn't work.

Speaker 3 (01:41:24):
Okay, So you know, it's an interesting but.

Speaker 1 (01:41:27):
It's one of those stories. It's based upon a kind
of superficial resemblance between the two and it's true, but
that would be you know, pretty darn interesting.

Speaker 4 (01:41:37):
But it is.

Speaker 1 (01:41:38):
That's when I can say that, no, I mean interesting
thing is you go back through this again. Its sort
of you back engineer the story. They first appeared so
far as I'm not able to tell on a blog
in two thousand and six. And the interesting thing there
is the day that it appeared in two thousand and

(01:41:59):
six was April first. And you know, it's not that
everything that appears and apes is a joke, but some
things are. So if you run across the story and
you find out that it's something that appeared on a
website or a blog or somewhere else on April Fool's Day.
You want to add a little bit more suspicious about
it than you might have been might have been otherwise.

Speaker 3 (01:42:20):
Okay, then what do you have with he assisted in
the escape of Rudolph Hess well.

Speaker 1 (01:42:28):
More, if Craley had any rule with Rudolph Hess and
and the whole Hiss thing is a you know, that's
another one of these episodes, I guess, you know. Just
to give a kind of little brief background, Rudolph Hess
was for a long time one of the most important
members of the Nazi lead. He's an old friend of
Half Hitler. He and he had off sort of went

(01:42:50):
through a party the ways when World War two broke out,
because Rudolf Past was absolutely convinced that Britain and Germany
shouldn't fight each other. So he argued that there were
two area in countries and they should really be allied.
The whole idea that Germans and Englishmen were killing each
other was a travesty, and so in May nineteen forty one,
Rudolph has jumped in a measure spent one ten and

(01:43:12):
as the general story goes went on this wild personal
peacemaking effort to fly to England to negotiate a separate
peace deal, and said he crashed and he was captured
and spent the rest of his life in captivity. So
it's usually explained. The usual story you get is that, well,
Rudolph has was just sort of crazy and he did
this crazy thing, and it's really just because this kind

(01:43:34):
of looney attempt by this guy that has no particular significance.
That again is one of the but there are all
sorts of theories around it, and that itself doesn't quite
hold up one. Rudolf has had a strong interesting thing
in the culture, yes, but there's no indication that he
was actually crazy. The other thing is that there was

(01:43:57):
in May nineteen forty one a very strong peace movement
in Britain. Because to give a little sort of snapshot
as to what the situation was in May nineteen forty one,
Hitler hasn't invaded Russia, right, so in May nineteen forty one,

(01:44:18):
Britain has been chased off the continent. France fell about
a year before. The Germans are in the process of
conquering the Balkans, and apparently getting ready to invade the
Middle East. Rommel is being sent into North Africa. So
in May nineteen forty one, America isn't in the war
and Russia isn't in the war. Hitler and Stalin are

(01:44:40):
still quasi allies, and anybody with any brains in London
would have been looking for a way to get out
of a war they were losing. Britain was losing the war.
He avoided being invaded the year before, and they never
knew when that would come up again. So the idea
that there is no one in England who would have
been willing to discuss a separate piece is wrong. There

(01:45:03):
are lots of people. So Hess was going there with
the possibility of fire. I mean, the idea of coming
it with some sort of deal wasn't absurd. So I
think that's part of the reason why hen Pass appeared
to be crazy and nobody in England would ever had
anything to do with him, and why he was kept
under wraps thereafter. There are other intriguing theories. I don't
think Crowley has anything, but he might have, and that Hess,

(01:45:25):
who was a great believer in astrology, was looking at
his astrological charts for what appeared and was was convinced,
probably by doctor astrological forecast. It was being fed to
him through his smollar vager who was working for the British.
Let's say something for you. Another crossover between in intelligence

(01:45:47):
hand the accaullt to encourage him to do this. The
Nadya Hinds of the British captivity. The most interesting thing
of where I think he probably passed cross issues. Yes,
whether or not Crowley was involved he interrogating Hiss after
his capture. There is the statement from a British Nazi sympathizer.

(01:46:11):
There were quite a few of those, by the way,
got the name of I think his name was John Gaster,
and he was interned in a place. When the war
broke out in Britain, there was a thing called the
Defence Regulation eighteen B, and Defense Regulation eighteen B allowed
the Churchill government to basically arrest and hold without trial

(01:46:33):
or charge for the duration of the war anyone that
considered to be a security threat. So that's the thing
that they could just grab you and make you disappear
for a while. Now. Gaster says that, and I can't
remember whether he says he saw this personally or heard
it from someone else. So it's that kind of a tale.
But one of the things that ran was their own

(01:46:54):
version of Guantanamo, you know, a black site, a prison
that isn't supposed to exist, which, by the way, just
for anybody out there, the one place you never want
to get sent to is a prison that doesn't exist,
because once you get there, neither do you. But it
was a thing called ham Common. He was there was

(01:47:17):
a former I think boys reformatory school, which I guess
fits sort of in the outskirts of London. But this
had been turned by British intelligence into a special prison
off the map, where interrogations of high importance Nazi prisoners
and others took place. So the idea here is that Kess,

(01:47:40):
who was always supposed to have been held at someone else,
was seen there at the same time that Crowley was
seen there. Okay, So ultimately, even that's not a lot
to go by that somebody says that they saw Rudolph
As at ham Common black prison site and that Crowley
was there as well. Now, that of itself I wouldn't

(01:48:00):
pay much attention to except for this, Okay, that's what
somebody claims. So we come back to the question, Okay,
what don't we know? When World War Two broke out
in nineteen thirty nine, Crowley was much older than he
was before, he was in poor health, but nevertheless he
is invited to contact the chief of British Naval Intelligence,

(01:48:25):
the fellow with the name of Admiral Godfrey. Okay, Now
that's kind of significant because, as I've been able to
piece together, you'll see in the book, the aspect of
British intelligence that Crowley was working for in New York
during World War One was navel intelligence. See, this is
one of these little tricky things we talk about. A

(01:48:46):
British intelligence or French intelligence or Soviet intelligence is if
it's a single thing, and it never is. You know,
CIA isn't the NSA, it's not the DIA, and therefore
five and it's not naval intelligence. All right, So you
have an intelligence is a house of many rooms, so
you have different agencies doing different things, and they don't

(01:49:08):
talk to each other a lot. So it's entirely conceivable.
In fact, it's pretty routine that six could consider someone
a suspect that is actually being run as an agent
by six, and you want it that way. See, there's
actually a purpose in having your assets suspected by your

(01:49:30):
cousins and another agency of being enemy agents, because you
want to convince the enemy agents that that's what these
people are sure, I mean A gives back to Croley's
World War One activity where he's writing German propaganda. The
reason he wrote German propaganda was to convince the Germans
that he was on their side. And the thing that

(01:49:50):
Kroley consistently claims is that it was all con on
the Germans. I want theirs by acting and speaking in
a way that seemed to be sympathetic to them, but
that my whole purpose was to spy on them, which
he was able to do. So you sometimes have to
create this whole and therefore it's very effective if that

(01:50:12):
if the Germans start hunting around you, you want them
to find that I six suspects him of being a
German agent.

Speaker 3 (01:50:20):
God, let me let me ask you, because we only
have about five minutes left, let me let me ask
you this. Did Do you think that the British intelligence
that their their interest in Crowley was despite his activity
with the Occult, or perhaps that increased their interest in
him and utilizing him. Do you think they they took
advantage of his occult beliefs and practices.

Speaker 1 (01:50:41):
They took advantage of the occult practice in the sense
that he gave him a whole set of connections that
other people didn't have. Okay, so remember one of the
things about secret societies, occult brotherhood, sisterhoods et cetera. Is
remember they exist below this. They're part of the sort
of unseen connections. They're part of that iceberg that we
don't see. But there are there are connections between people.

(01:51:04):
You know, It's like those connections between Reginald mcbeing the
British consul and the ducas Zero and Crowley. You wouldn't
you wouldn't see those connections unless you understood the secret
societies they were part of. So one his occult connections
gave him access to people in information others outside of
that framework you didn't have. But but there's always this possibility. See,

(01:51:27):
here's really the thing that a lot of times people
don't want to touch. But it's the it's the ultimate
spooky question about the fault, and that is what if
it works right? Well, if Sun the aid of higher
powers to need your effort, would you do that? Would

(01:51:48):
you be willing to try, and if you're doing your
job right, you're going to be willing to try. And
in that case, Crawley offered a whole of avenues of
potential information or influence than others didn't have. So I

(01:52:08):
don't know. Did they ever get magic to work? I
don't know, Probably not, but I'll bet they tried and wouldn't.

Speaker 3 (01:52:20):
It seems like they keep trying too, because they probably
wasn't the last one of this. You know, when you've
got when you've got.

Speaker 1 (01:52:26):
The US Army paying people the steric ghosts, they stop
their heart. You know. There's a term for that that
I didn't come up with, but a friend of mine did,
and he calls it the weaponization of magic. If you
could find out that this stuff existed, would you weaponize it?
And my only answer to that is you'd weaponize it
the same way they weaponize everything else they think they

(01:52:48):
will work.

Speaker 3 (01:52:49):
Yeah, it's a shame. I think if they have a
person knew that their government was willing to do that,
they might object to it, you know what I mean.

Speaker 1 (01:52:56):
See, that's why you're not supposed to know.

Speaker 3 (01:52:58):
Yeah, right, that's Professor Rick Spence tell people how they
can find you if they want to they want to
get a hold of you.

Speaker 1 (01:53:05):
Uh, well, if you want to reach me, I'll give
you my email address. Uh it's our Spence R S
P E N C E at you Idaho U I
D A H O dot E d U. Or you
can just go in and google University of Idaho and
then find the history to perment in. A variety of
details are there, and you can find out the classes

(01:53:27):
I teach and all the rest of that. And I
guess at the universe we went to say, if you're
thinking about going to college somewhere, you check into the
University of Idaho. There I've done my duty. You can
find my books on Amazon, and I guess, uh wherever
find books are sold. And if you're interested in any
of those topics, I really urge you to to check
them out. Uh. And if anybody has something interesting to say, uh,

(01:53:51):
you know, information to offer, by all means contact me.

Speaker 3 (01:53:54):
Excellent. I'd like to have you back to to talk
about modern espionage and also anti Semitism, which seems to
be on the rise to as well.

Speaker 1 (01:54:01):
Oh yeah, and I can. I can tell you about
a guy named Ruth and uh he brings in all
this stuff you never heard of him, but you should.

Speaker 3 (01:54:08):
Let's let's do that for sure. Then, thank you so much,
Professor Richard Spence. Sure can I okay? So we had
Richard Spence a University of Idaho. All the excellent books listen.
I love this guy's presentation, So I'm sure that the
books are are are right up there.

Speaker 1 (01:54:25):
MAYL.

Speaker 3 (01:54:25):
Wall Street and Russian Revolution, Trust No. One, The Secret
World of Sidney Riley and Secret Asian six six siss
Alister Crowley, British Intelligence and the Occult. I actually believe
that I tried to someone sent me that book, and
I tried to contact the Professor Spence once before, and
just I don't know what just fell through. Who knows

(01:54:46):
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(01:56:08):
thank you so much. Welcome back to the Opperman Report.
I'm your host private investigator at Opperman. You can find
a link to my work at email revealer dot com.
I want to think our guest, the Professor Rick Spence
from the University of Idaho, Wonderful Books. Here is Secret
Agent sixty y' six, Ansir Crowley, the British Intelligence and

(01:56:29):
the Occult Trust No. One, the Secret World of Sydney
Ryley and wall Street, and the Russian Revolution. But we're
gonna have back to to talk about antisemitism, which is
just to become so blatant it's not even funny anymore.
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(01:57:10):
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(01:58:13):
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(01:58:34):
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(01:59:18):
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Speaker 1 (02:00:37):
H