Vincent F Amen - Michael Jackson Insider

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
It's the Opperman Report and now here is investigator at Opperman.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
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(00:31):
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(00:53):
I play repeats every single day or of the week,
so you can't away all day long. At Opera you
can't get enough. Okay about our guest today, Vincent f Amen,
and you could find him at Vincent f Amen dot com.
You can find him on Twitter, Vincent f Imn, on
Instagram Vincent Fimn. And he purchased the rights to one

(01:13):
of the jurors notebooks and the Michael Jackson Trial there
and it's called the Michael Jackson Trial Juror Notebook and
you can find that on Amazon. Now, mister Amen, are
you there?

Speaker 1 (01:25):
I am here, Thank you, Thank you for having me
on Not.

Speaker 2 (01:29):
Sure sure now before we get into your book here,
Michael Jackson's Trial Juror Notebook, tell us about yourself. Who
is Vincent f Amen?

Speaker 1 (01:36):
Yeah, I'm I grew up in Northern New Jersey. I
went to school in Pittsburgh at a schoolm in Carnegie
Mellon University. And I guess why we're here is to
talk a little bit about Michael Jackson and maybe how
I got associated with it. One of my close friends

(01:58):
was somebody the name of Frank Cassio was going by
Frank Cassio Tyson in the year two thousand, in the
two thousands, and I was acquainted with him and we
were friends in northern New Jersey and he had a
special friend by the name of Michael Jackson. And basically
after college, coming back from Pittsburgh, I united with Frank

(02:21):
and we started a company together and worked together, and
we eventually called out to visit the ranch and work
for Michael. And you know, going back to me, you know,
I grew up and played soccer and and just did
all the normal activities that I guess athletic kids with too.

(02:45):
And that's how I made a lot of my friends
and actually the reason why I became with Frank. Friends
with Frank, he was a good soccer player as well,
and we had done some traveling around the world playing
soccer different countries and uh yeah, that was soccer, not
necessarily semi pro. I mean I did play a year
in college. It was D three, but this was when

(03:08):
we were younger. In high school. We had a club
team and it was like the most exciting thing in
the world to go travel and play soccer against European
teams and South American teams.

Speaker 2 (03:18):
Oh yeah, I bet many. But I noticed also too,
you have a very impressive business career, right, yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:23):
Well we actually, you know two things. I have my
own company that I work on usually at night, doing
a little consulting and things like that. I do a
little bit of everything. I do a lot of business.
We actually have a family business in the northern New
Jersey area. It's funny. It's a little bit of a

(03:44):
high profile restaurant, a four hundred seat restaurant and four
hundred seat banquet hall, and we're in a little bit
of real estate. And you know, I basically run the
business for the family. So that's basically what I do.
And I work on my company usually at night. Is

(04:05):
running a business.

Speaker 2 (04:06):
Twenty four hours a day, seven days a week, the
whole life. Man. I'm from New York myself, and yeah,
it's a different way of life, yeah, Northeast. Okay. So
then you said you got involved with Michael Jackson through Cassio,
Frank Cassio.

Speaker 1 (04:22):
Frank Cassio, Yeah, I met. Our families knew each other
prior to I, me and myself being born as well
as Frank. They were also in the restaurant business as well.
Frank's uncle and father. How they got associated with Michael

(04:45):
was they his father was a manager at the Helmsley
Palace hotel, Michael's one of his Michael's favorite hotels to
stay in New York, and he became friends with them,
and then you know, eventually his childre and we came
very close to him once we got to high school
in the late in the actually in the early nineties

(05:07):
or in nineteen ninety four ninety five. I actually physically
met Frank at a soccer game, actually, and we became
instant friends. And because we had similar backgrounds, our families
knew each other. You know, it was kind of exciting
because I knew about him, he knew about me, and
we finally connected, and it was always funny. I never

(05:32):
really wanted to get to be intrusive about Michael Jackson.
We knew that the family knew Michael Jackson. Back in
the eighties when I was a little child. My father
had a restaurant and the Cassios lived about the town
away in Franklin Lakes, New Jersey. We were in Oakland,
New Jersey, and she actually brought I believe LaToya and

(05:55):
maybe Janet with her. I was a little kid, and
I know LaToya to the restaurant, so, you know, and
the whole where I'm from is this Burden County area
that I lived pretty much my whole life, which is
borders of New York and works its way down in
New Jersey. You know, the community knew of the Cassio's

(06:16):
and their association with Michael. So that's how I became
acquainted with I learned a little bit about Michael being
friends close friends with Frank and then eventually transforming that
many years later into you know, a business relationship with
Frank and then a business relationship working with Michael.

Speaker 2 (06:37):
You mentioned earlier on that Frank had a special friendship
with Michael Jackson. How old was he and how would
you describe this friendship.

Speaker 1 (06:44):
Yeah, from what I know is that, you know, Frank
was a young child. He could have been very young
in his elementary years, and you know, like I was saying,
the father introduced Michael to his family, and there was
an innocant bond. You know, something that I like to
know that many people don't know is that Frank is

(07:04):
one of the closest child to Michael for the longest
number of years. I would say more than the Chandler,
maybe more than Robson and say check which I don't
want to take away anything from them or their story
and their victimization story, but I'm just saying he was
one of the closest childs to Michael. I knew that,

(07:27):
and it was never really portrayed as that as the
years went on. But it's something that I would like
to share. And when I say this at the start
of our conversation, it's going to segue into something later
on that affected my life in a interesting way.

Speaker 2 (07:46):
Oh yeah, I'm familiar with the name of Frank Cassier
from the old Diane Diamond reports from years and years ago.
Supposely the whole family was close to Michael Jackson and
then he went to work for Jackson too.

Speaker 1 (08:00):
Absolutely, when I was in high school with Frank, he
went to like ar Rival High School, public school in
the area. I ended up going to a very strict
Catholic school, and and Frank was never at school when
he was supposed to be at school because he was
always traveling with Michael, whether it was world tours, exotic vacations,

(08:23):
euro Disney, the family would go. As well as him
being alone with Michael and staying with Michael alone as
a child and growing up that way, you know, he
missed a lot of school. This why I still remember this.
The school was like you've missed X amount of days,

(08:44):
which is over the limit. You may not make to
the next greak. That was the influence Michael pad and
from knowing what I knew as a child that he
was telling me is you know, you don't need an education.
Michael pushed this that you really didn't need an education.
You just seems to be good at your your task
that you performed in life, so don't worry about it.

(09:06):
Travel with me. It's something exciting. So he really influenced
him as a child, and then that influence was then
brought on to you know, myself and other close friends
around front.

Speaker 2 (09:20):
And you were Frank, we're about the same age.

Speaker 1 (09:22):
Yeah, we're pretty much the same age is about a
year younger, but but we were in the same grade level.

Speaker 2 (09:28):
Then did you find it strange back then? Looking back
in hindsight, did you find it strange? Oh no, I'm
not in hindsight back then when your friends were Frank,
did you find it strange he was best friends with
this adult male star rot.

Speaker 1 (09:42):
Yeah, I mean I did. I did. I found it
a little bit strange, but interesting, funny. Strange isn't a
certain particular word describing their, you know, relationship. How Michael
dictated to him, you know, you had to be original
and Frank going to school wearing different color of socks
and going to the mall dressed up as someone he's not,

(10:04):
because he would go to our local mall, which was
Garden State Plaza, with Michael pushing him around in a
wheelchair as Michael's dressed up as like an older like
an older woman.

Speaker 2 (10:18):
What other kind of stories did he tell you then,
like that kind of stuff going to the mall?

Speaker 1 (10:23):
Oh yeah, well, other things were as a child. You know,
we shouldn't really focus on religion. We're all gods, we
all make a decision. You know. He was calling certain
dictators during the Second World War geniuses and I'm not

(10:44):
gonna yeah, And he would portray that on to Frank,
and Frank would repeat that to me, and I said, Frank,
how can someone that's so evil he considered a genius
by Michael Jackson, who had so much influence on people
in the world and supposed to be and who Michael
felt was like the light of the world, a certain

(11:05):
type of profit to the people. And I tell you,
his fans almost treat him like that. You know, you
see his fans fainting, crying following him. He can do
no wrong. So that's some of the areas you know
that I learned he would. He would actually keep Frank
up all night meditating. Don't sleep. Meditation is a way

(11:30):
of being healthy in the mind, and you don't need
to sleep. I still remember, you know, Frank would basically,
you know, uh, basically stay up all night. And he
would say that to me. And when I was at
the we were kids, We're in high school, and he
would say, I put a blanket over my head and

(11:50):
I just meditate while I listened to certain types of music.
I found all of this a little strange, and I,
you know, I always wondered, you know, where did this
come from? And this was all instilled in him by
Michael Jackson.

Speaker 2 (12:05):
Yeah. I had another guest on that was a memorabilia
dealer and he talked about selling a Nazi memorabilia to
Michael Jackson.

Speaker 1 (12:13):
Yeah that's the yeah Germany.

Speaker 2 (12:19):
Now, did did Frank say anything about Michael Jackson using drugs?
Or did he say anything about Michael Jackson's sex life
or romantic life?

Speaker 1 (12:27):
Yeah? He did. And that's why it was a little
little two things. It was a little deceiving, you know.
I looked at Michael as this celebrity. Now I know
about the entertainment world, a lot of people have issues
just as regular as society. People have addictions. Usually when
you know you're in the limelight and you're a leader
in the community, as Michael was being a singer and

(12:48):
being in front of everyone and globally known, you know,
you know, I felt, you know, maybe he's this clon
cut singer that all he does is work, which he portrays.
Frank did didn't mention when we were younger having a
drug problem. As I we got a little older, I
was kind of brought into it because he kind of

(13:09):
Michael kind of again instilled this behavioral trait addiction to Frank,
you know, he he he basically got him hooked on pills,
these percocets and vicodin, and Michael told him, ah, you
need to do this for an escape, and I have

(13:30):
no problem with you doing this in my guidance when
your parents are not around. And Frank was hooked on
these pills. Later, and I knew Frank, you know, growing up,
and he was working for Michael as his personal assistant
in New York, and he was getting these pills from
Michael in different names, and I always wondered, why, you know,

(13:53):
different names? It was to be so that he wouldn't
be caught. I guess the pharmacies, ordering one Michael Jackson
and then ordering you know what, Let's say if it
was weekly vicadin Uh, and it would be in somewhat

(14:14):
of different names so they wouldn't catch onto it. I'll
go back to this level of a little bit of deceit.
Because Michael couldn't see out in public, so he would
dress up like an older eight year old woman being
pushed in a wheelchair. There was this level of playing
with the minds of people, this little level of deceit.
And Frank had many different names. Frank had Frank Potter,

(14:35):
Frank Tyson in all these different names. And then we
later find out and I found out, you know, as
I would, there was a learning kurt with me. I
started to learn information, and as we proceeded, I would
obtain this information and it would just it would just
reside in me. But I learned, you know, Frank was

(14:58):
getting prescriptions for Michael and different names, and he was
giving it to him. They were doing that together. This
is later on UH and drinking when they were fifteen
and sixteen years old. I have some pictures of that
that I turned over actually to the authorities because you know,

(15:18):
all of a sudden, you know, weren't There's a trial
going on, and thomson Etta and the Santa Parte were
just to attorney or start firing off allegations. I'm turning
my head left and right, and I'm like, wow, but
you are doing that. This did happen? This, this, this,
this that, And I started to put the puzzle together

(15:41):
and the reason why I was I had to understand
what surrounded me. So that that's, you know, skipping ahead
a little bit, but inevitably, those were the things that
you know, I saw as growing up and what he
instilled in Frank.

Speaker 2 (15:57):
And I gotta tell you something. You know, I was
no innocent kid and school everyone knows that. But the
thing is, man, if you're an adult and you're giving
these opioids to a kid, that's a lifelong bitch. Man.
You can never you know, if you're bad enough, you're
an adult hooked on these opioids. Man, he got a
kid hooked on there, especially during their development years. I
don't even I don't know anybody, man, I could do that.

(16:19):
That's just such a horrible thing to do.

Speaker 1 (16:21):
Yeah, he got him hooked on it. We all know
from later on in life. Then Michael was taking massive
amounts of these pills like Eminem's and then he got
that he got Frank into that, and you know, they
were staying together alone as a young child, all the
way up eighteen twenty five, so young child, and he

(16:43):
was getting Frank into this. You know, it got to
the point where I knew his family, Frank, and they
were like, why is Frank bringing all these bottles in
medicine with him to like Italy? And why is he
taking all of this? You know. Then I would see Frank,
uh you know, it slowly showed me. You know, he

(17:03):
was keeping in his briefcase and he said, Frank, you know,
how do you get hooked on this Viking it? And
he had no reason. He would always say, you know, uh,
well Michael did, and you know this is an escape
and and but but it's okay that Michael did because
it was when he got burned his hair got burned
during that Pepsi commercial where he got hooked on it.

(17:27):
But you know, like like all people, they have addictions.
But that was an addiction that Michael had. But then
it became an addiction for Frank and Frank was very young.
We had no family.

Speaker 2 (17:37):
Around these late night comedians. You know, they make jokes
about Michael Jackson. But you know when you hear this, like,
that's a whole nother level of getting kids addicted to
drugs just to I guess we're control and manipulation, right, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (17:53):
It seems that way from knowing what I learned. You know, no, no, no, Now.

Speaker 2 (17:58):
He said Frank was using a bunch of fake names.
Did he also have fake IDs?

Speaker 1 (18:03):
No? I didn't see fake ideas. Uh, you know it
was pre nine eleven where and just write a name
down right and everyone would stay fine.

Speaker 2 (18:13):
I mean, now, what about did Frank talk about Michael
Jackson's sex life or his love life? He did?

Speaker 1 (18:22):
He said he was into and this is what led
me to believe he was. He was into women. You know,
even from when I was at the ranch. You know,
Michael picked up a fan I think her name was
Joanna blind Hairley girl woman, and you know I'm hearing
rumors from Frank. You know, we walked in and Michael's
send the room along with her and he's kissing her.

(18:43):
So it further solidified my belief. And I was young
and naive, then I was just gonna out of college.
You know, I didn't know about sexual abuse and molestation
never crusted my mind. And and you know from hearing
these rumors that front that Michael's you know, making out
with women. It's just let me know, maybe this really

(19:05):
isn't what I heard with rumors I heard about that,
the sexual abuse for children. You know, I was questioned
by Santa Barbara saying, didn't you know about ninety three?
You know, why did you go? And I'll get into
that later. But I was in ninety three. I was
in seventh grade. You know. All I heard was jokes

(19:27):
being made about Michael, right. You know, I didn't know
as like a thirty year old or twenty five year
old or thirty year old back in ninety three. Wow,
there could be something going on, you know, generals matched
the description he was in the room alone. I didn't
know any of that. I just heard, you know, jokes
about Michael and ninety three.

Speaker 2 (19:46):
I was in seventh grade, right, And what about you
hear about McCauley, Calkin and Corey Feldman and stuff like that.
Did you hear any things about that?

Speaker 1 (19:56):
You know, Frank was friends with McCauley fulkan he you know,
he deniated anything ever happened with McCauley and Feldman. However,
you know, I believe no. Corey Feldman came out and

(20:16):
said nothing happened. I think that that's that's his position,
and he you know, whether it's true or not, you know,
I believe what he says. I don't know, just like
Frank right now. And I was led and told the
information by Frank, which ild me to believe in what
I've seen while working for Michael. You know, he was
abused and then later now even after writing books and

(20:38):
testifying for him, just like the safe Chuck and robson
Uh situation, you know, later coming out. You know, I'm
basically saying that they were victimized. You know, I have
a little bit of experience with this, with a sex
abuse victium. Probably not gonna want to get into in
this interview with an Epstein vict to my wife, and

(20:59):
I stealed the progression of someone who was is a
sexual abuse victim, revealing little bits of information as well
as coming to a turning point and meeting at face
on and saying having that openness and saying I was
sexually abused and then definitely describing it and going to
the government describing it. So now I see these kids
and I believe these kids that say they were sexually abuse.

(21:20):
You know, I didn't understand from Gavin's point of view,
and and you know, how could this happen? You know,
Frank said, this never would happen. I've been around Michael
all these years, and that's one of the reasons why
I went out there, because I directly asked Frank. I said, Frank,
I said, you know, the sheer thing happened, you want
me to come work for Michael. We started to get

(21:42):
associated with Michael and this guy Mark Shaffle, and I
said to him, I said, you know, Frank, does this
really occur with Joe? No, absolutely not. I knew Michael
since I was I knew that was true, and then
later to be let on. You know, it's similar hurtful.
You feel like you've been well, you have been You've
been almost duped, you know.

Speaker 2 (22:05):
So, But I guess Corey Felman he's been open about
his drug addictions, and I guess, and I think all
indications with the Molly Acaulleau Calck, and I don't know
if he's come out public and talked about it. But
that does seem to be that pattern in the air
with the opiate, says, sharing these opiates with this bunch.

Speaker 1 (22:23):
Yeah, it does. You know, I was led information on
that there may have been group activities going on with
Michael and children. You know, when I was at the ranch,
I didn't see anything sexual, but I saw late night
fun get togethers walking around the ranch at one two
in the morning when I would go to the main

(22:46):
house and get like a gatorade or something, come back
with the code and get a gatorade, walk out, and
there's Michael with young children and Frank walking on the
ranch at night. So there were these somewhat group activities
that they were engaged in. And you can come to
the conclusion that there is a possibility that they were
using drugs and drinking at this they trying new Frank
wise with Michael and doing drugs and you know, so

(23:10):
so it's a possibility that the group of them were
doing it.

Speaker 2 (23:13):
Hey, real quick. The Melendez brothers and I was told
that the Milend their father was friends with an architect
down at the Neverland Ranch, and the Melendez brothers used
to go visit the ranch. Have you heard that story.

Speaker 1 (23:26):
I have not heard that. I have not. I have not.

Speaker 2 (23:29):
I have not, Okay, I have not.

Speaker 1 (23:31):
But that's that's that's interesting that there's a little connection there.

Speaker 2 (23:34):
Yeah, I'm trying to get a confirmation that I was hoping. Okay,
so let's see. So now I guess the next stage
of the story is that you start working down there.
What was your role?

Speaker 1 (23:48):
Yeah, so you know again, I went to a business school,
a proceigious business school from Pittsburgh, and so it actually
is very much an interesting story. It was my junior
year going to my senior year, and Frank had asked
me to leave school and come work for Michael. Frank

(24:12):
started up from what graduated from his personal assistant at
seventeen eighteen and to now like a business manager, and
he was the link between the business managers and Michael.
So they would the relationship was managers and people like
maybe they want to get associated with Michael or works
for Michael. They would say, hey, Frank, go ask Michael this,

(24:36):
Go ask Michael that. Because this personal assistant relationship, he's
you're in the room, you're packing for Michael. You have
a very close relationship Michael. So it was almost like
a situation where like a father owns a business and
you're the son, and they go to the son to
get to the father, you know, ask questions, but business
deals together. So that's the relationship between Frank and Michael.

(24:58):
So what happened was when we went out there, Frank
was initially fired from Michael's management team. They sent him
a seasoned assist. Don't use Michael's name, stay away from
the organization. Michael wants to have nothing to do with you.
And it's from looking at it now and looking at

(25:18):
it hindsight. Frank was trying to get back into Michael's
good braces and go back to work from one because
he had a relationship as a child, and two he
enjoyed working with Michael. So I ends up he brought
me in to the picture because Frank and I had
a company together when I graduated college, and that was
in the summer of two thousand and two. By two

(25:40):
thousand and three, I had flown out to Los Angeles
to work with this person named Mark Schaffel who had
a joint company with Michael, Neverland Valley Entertainment, and had
some business feelings to finalize up with Michael, and that's
how we It was almost like Frank got back in,
Mark that back in, and I just gradually was lifted

(26:04):
back into it with him.

Speaker 2 (26:07):
Yeah, it seems to be like a lot of chaos
around Michael Jackson. A lot of shifty business dealings going on,
and so of these people like majestic, magnificent, like these
real courardlies, real out there kind of people. Man, how
do these people get in there?

Speaker 1 (26:21):
Yeah? You know, you have people that just want to
be around Michael Jackson, want to be associated and why
because the money is you know, so they're they're pushing
their fighting. It's always a powered struggle. It's a lot
of manipulation. It's a lot of how can we take
this group out to get in? Oh, we're in. There's
this constant struggle. There's constant hiring and firing. Uh, and

(26:44):
there's constant infighting within it just to be close to
Michael and to do these business deals because they knew,
you know, any business deal like we did with Fox
Fox Channel, the reality shows, the post Bashir, the rebuttle
and the private home videos. It's five million dollar deal
and twenty there's a lot of incentive to work for

(27:05):
Michael Jackson. For me when I went out there was
a college brad. I just wanted a paycheck.

Speaker 2 (27:10):
Yeah, sure, But how these people get in? Like, is
Michael the one in charge? Does he endorse this chaos
or did he try to avoid the cast?

Speaker 1 (27:18):
Well, that's the thing. You have someone like Frank that
knows X y Z, that met these people and he
would bring them to Michael. Then you have someone like
Dieter who he was dealing with merchandising in Germany at
a merchandising company in Germany and had some other the
trademark for Michael in Germany, Dieter Weiser. So then he

(27:40):
comes a business manager, and then Dieter brings Ronald Knizuran,
who was a part of the trial from Vancouver. And
then they're bringing people in, and then they find Michael
finds a guy by the name of Mark Schaffel through
his doctor Arnie Klein, who end up he meets Debbie Rowe,
and then they have came is and Mark Chaffle's in

(28:01):
and then Mark Kaffele brings people in, and then Frank
brought me. So that's how the whole I mean, it's
how life works. But I mean that's how people became
acquaint and we're around like her.

Speaker 2 (28:12):
That's how life works. Yeah, usually with people that are
archaotic junkies. Yeah, you know, like you don't really see
that too much in the you know, five hundred billion
a million dollar you know, music library. And he was
making some wise decisions, right, but.

Speaker 1 (28:32):
He was making some wise decisions. You know. The interesting
thing about me and why he wanted me and he
he he Michael disclosed why he wanted children around. And
one of those as were young people in children are innocent,
which I can say, Okay, that's true. They don't have
this vindictive Let's take this group out and get this

(28:55):
group out so we can make money. So the reason
why he allowed me to come in and he actually
the quote for a reference check with the castios. You
know how he's then, you know, I know he wanted
I was going to bring him out many years ago.
And how is he and and they said, he's fine,
he's he's he's he's he's a worker. You know, he
went to one of the best business wools in the
country and uh, you know, and and and he has

(29:17):
no I don't say this like auterior motives while being
and associated with you, like some of the fraudulent individuals
that came into Michael's life. Again, we were part of
the innocent, the young the night.

Speaker 2 (29:32):
You can see you you're a young guy. You don't
have enough experience to be a threat to me. I
can bring in and kind of like, yeah, I can
control this guy. It's not too much. I have to
watch him in the constant. He's not smarter than me,
you know like that, Yeah, I can see that, I
can see that. It's I've got a long life myself.
Take us through the chronology with Frank Cassio and it's

(29:56):
different allegations were canting allegations and then where does he
stand today?

Speaker 1 (30:00):
Okay, so standing today? So like I you know, I
learned a lot when allegations came out during the trial,
during the investigation. So you're going from two thousand and three,
two thousand and four, two thousand and five. You know,
he had a you know, we all know TMC. Harvey
Leven from TMC. He's a good guy. He really wanted

(30:22):
to find the truth and he tried to interview me
and he would send reporters and Frank when he catches
Frank on the phone, and I have you know, a
clip of the beginning part of it. But he goes,
you know, he goes on TV Harvard. He says, Frank
and I had a forty five minute conversation where he
told me Michael and him slept in bed hundreds of

(30:42):
times together over the years, and they had graphic sexual
conversations in bed at night with no family around, but
about women. So he puts this out. We both had
a joint attorney that I paid for and I retained
by the name of Joe Takakina and in New York and.

Speaker 2 (31:06):
Yeah, the PBA lawyer for a while.

Speaker 1 (31:11):
Yeah, good, Yeah, And then uh so I'm finding out
that now it's two thousand and four going into two
thousand and five, and I never knew this. Frank said
there was no sleeping in bed to now him telling
Harvey this, then me confronting Frank, and he was confirming
it with me. So there was like a learning curve

(31:31):
behind the scenes that I knew that the public didn't know.
He did let it out to Harvey. And if you
ever asked Harvey eleven, he would testify to what Frank
said right now going through it to your question, Uh,
you know, Frank has always denied everything, but then he
started to reveal, uh, you know, items named in bits

(31:52):
and pieces, namely, you know, when Leaving Neverland came out
the Dan Read documentary that was showing that NHBL. It
was a very interesting It felt like it punched the
Cassios and even me, you know, they were all disheveled.
And then they started to say, you know, we feel

(32:14):
like a family being used by Michael. We may have
been used by Michael. And they started to it's almost
like this repressed memory situation. We started to remember, wait,
there's a possibility of abuse. And then Frank revealed to me.
He said to me, he says, then, you know I
asked me whatever you want, I'll tell you the truth.
I say, okay, Frank, because I was trustworthy about it,
and and I knew Frank for very long. And he goes,

(32:35):
you know, there was this group element Michael asked. Michael
asked Frank to group masturbate with other boys. So now
I'm starting to learn that he starts to reveal this
in bits and pieces. I know he's under somewhat of
a uh. He he wrote his book. He had wrote

(32:56):
his book around twenty eleven. He started to reveal this
information to me after we order his book. You know,
I've read the book. It was in total defense of Michael.
Nothing happened. Father figure never would do this. But then
there was this, you know, dark side to the story
that was ever revealed to the public. That a lot
was revealed to me during the investigation of the trial.

(33:20):
The detective Robell went out to see Frank and me
to our homes and Frank hands me a bag and
there was a child pornography video ordering section in the
magazine that was in the bag with circles around sharply
circles around the videos to be ordered. So once again
I'm in this big situation with Frank and in this trial,

(33:40):
and I go and I confront Frank and he says, yeah.
Then we sat down and we ordered the videos were ordered.
Michael circle with them, the videos he wanted to select them,
and we were going through a phase together and we
were watching these videos of naked families and naked children
France arat. So you start to put the pieces to

(34:01):
the puzzle together, and the victimization and the sexual abuse,
you know, came out over the years. I always, you know,
said Frank, you know you're denying it, denying nine. I
know it's something very hard for him to come forward.
Now we fast forward, and where are we at today.
I get a call from a reporter saying, after leaving

(34:24):
Neverland came out Frank went to an attorney and put
a deal together with the estate. So I'm sitting there
and Frank was a little deceptive to me. He goes, man,
I'm putting an entertainment deal together, and I'm gonna make
money on this deal. And this was right after leaving Neverland,

(34:45):
after we had this conversation and telling me about this
potential sexual abuse, and then all of a sudden, then
the entertainment deal went together. He buys a house, he's
gambling more, he's doing all this stuff. And then I
get a call from a reporter a year ago and saying,

(35:06):
you know, Frank, he got paid. There was a deal
I putuned two together. That was the entertainment deal. And
now Frank got paid, and his last payment, he wanted
more money. He felt that he should have received more money,
so he went to an attorney. From Now we found
out that it's this Howard King, who interestingly enough, was

(35:27):
Mark Schaffel's attorney during the trial. And there was an
extortion attempt. You know, the estate came out and said
you wanted two hundred thirteen million. You we already paid,
there was a ready deal, you sold your life rights.
And if Frank wasn't paid this amount of hundreds of
millions of dollars, there would be allegations in public information

(35:49):
that would go out to the public that would be
not so pleasant for Michael Jackson in the estate. So
now we fast forward again a couple of months later,
which was just recently a couple of weeks ago, where
Frank changed attorneys and it's interesting again to Mark Garrigos,
and I know Mark arrages from the trial, and so
he goes and hires Mark, and it really seemed like

(36:11):
a conflict. I was like, how can Mark Garrigos represent
Michael Jackson and he was a part of the trial,
and now he's representing Frank and instead of two hundred
thirteen million, he's looking for forty four million. You know,
I can rewind a little bit. When this first broke
and the reporter first called me up. You know, I

(36:32):
hadn't talked to Frank for a bit, and I, you know,
like I look with a victim of sexual abuse from
Jeffrey Epstein my wife and I sent a text message
to Frank which I saved, and I said, you know, Frank,
I'm really sorry. I knew you revealed this to me.

(36:53):
I didn't want to in a sense, you know, go
into a view pressure you. I know you're revealing details
to me. I know he was hiding it and covering
up for Michael, and it's a part of the abuse
experience that Frank went through. I said, I'm sorry. You
know my wife and how I deal with this and
I live with a victim, I understand it more than

(37:16):
maybe other people, you know. And then my last namement,
you know, I'm sorry that this happened to you, Frank
and my life even though there's there's issues with the
relationship as because of deception and everything like that of
not telling me and because he didn't tell me, which
you probably couldn't have because he didn't want that out.
But you know, as a friend, you should have said,
maybe this is not for you. When I end up

(37:38):
going there because he knew this information, it was almost
like deceit and deceptive and duping someone. And uh, you
know I did send that message, and then the last
I left off with him like, fine, please don't like
to long get in trouble, you know, storing someone, do
your best of follow the law, you know, because following

(37:58):
the law is interesting. You know. He may have made
a mistake to well life works in certain ways. You know.
He put this entertainment or life right steal, you know,
in exchanged with the estate for money. It was it
was around fifteen million, divided by the five siblings, five
of them together. And he missed that ASA claim window,

(38:21):
that Adult Survivor Act claimed that was open in California.
So he put this deal together before the ASA claims
in California opened up where he can sue for sexual abuse.
That what was one hundred years ago. So he really
didn't receive maybe the level of compensation he should have
received from being abused over all of those years. So

(38:45):
now what does he do He now he's past that,
he realized, wait a second, this wasn't a fair deal.
Maybe the mjestate, Michael Jackson estate got off rather easy,
you know, only giving him three million for all those
times slept in bed with Michael and all the sexual abuse.
And we're just waiting for that information to come out.
Now you know, maybe like the safe Chuck and Robson situation.

(39:07):
I don't know if Frank's gonna actually go out and
detail it, but you know, I've revealed a little bit
of information and uh, you know, maybe he feels that,
and like your question was, you know where we're at now.
You know, we're at the point where this may be
revealed to the public. Frank may be awarded money. The
m J State is, the Michael Jackson state is fighting

(39:27):
it to keep this at a minimum, Like you're not
getting nothing more than what we gave you, so we
may hear more, we may hear allegations in the public.
I know that it's true. You know, every everything led
to that, and that's where we're at today.

Speaker 2 (39:46):
So you don't think there's any possibilities that Frank, you know,
you mentioned some type of gambling situation too, but with
his drug problems over the years, that he could possibly
be making this up, I know, for his own personal game.

Speaker 1 (39:57):
No, no, I don't believe. So. I know, like a
sex abuse victim, it takes a long time for them
to come to terms, so that, yeah, anyone could make
this up. You have the Loo royal fans of Michael Jackson.
If you showed them videos of Michael Jackson engaging in
sexual activity with the child, they would still deny it.

(40:17):
They would say it's ai no, but we have a
VHS tape from You're nineteen ninety eight. But you know,
so you have those individuals, but then you have the
reality of it, and then they should present this to
the public. What is the sex abuse victim? We learn
a lot about it during the Epstein trial and these
girls and these women with the trafficking, so the public

(40:38):
is more aware of it, even though it's been most
likely going on for many years, this behavior. So now
it really can come to the conclusion that these kids,
you know, there's a similar pattern between all the sex
abusive victims. And you know this is portrayed in maybe
Frank's story and Jimmy Safechalk and Wade Robson's story. And

(41:02):
now you can go back to Gavin R. Visa, right,
and you know he hasn't spoken out, but he may
eventually one day come forward and say, no, this really happened,
and from my belief, happened before the dates that they
set out sneded in during the trial.

Speaker 2 (41:20):
Yeah, we're talking to Vincent f Amn you can find
in Vincent f amend dot com and the book his
book you purchased the rights to and published was Michael
Jackson's Tronger or Notebook. And I know exactly what you're
talking about, because that's one of our specialties when we're
doing a representing sexual battery victims, especially as children. That's

(41:41):
one of our things we do all the time when
I'm working with my attorneys. And you've lived through this
because your wife. But people on the outside they think
it's all black and white. They don't understand all those
shades of gray, the trauma you go through, and then
that causes a lot of uh, you know, it's just
not as black and white as people.

Speaker 1 (42:01):
Think, Thank you very much, it's not.

Speaker 2 (42:04):
And they don't understand.

Speaker 1 (42:06):
Saga is well beyond did he touch a kid or not?
It is way more sophisticated than that.

Speaker 2 (42:15):
Yes, and it's not easy reading through all this, which
reminds me a question. I have a noted don Did
you have any deals with Pelicano and Paul BARRESSI I
did not.

Speaker 1 (42:25):
I was there after that. Pelicano may have been in
jail during the time period that I was there. I
know he just from reading articles he got out of jail.
But I was post that. I think that was during
the nineties, mid nineties to ninety three when they were
associated with Michael Gotcha.

Speaker 2 (42:41):
Well, thank god you avoided that. Now, what about it? Yeah, explosives?

Speaker 1 (42:48):
You know?

Speaker 2 (42:49):
Now, what about you mentioned Cassio's brothers, any indication that
the brothers had issues, which actually.

Speaker 1 (42:54):
He did after leaving Nevland, I got information that Aldo
baby Rubba called my Michael. They called Michael uh ald
the little Aldo Frenk's brother, the youngest, and he was
very confused. He was intense therapy afterwards. It was being
paid for by this politician and gloat in this media

(43:18):
manager from Germany. He gets involved in all this Michael
Jackson uh Saga information. I know he benefits from it.
He was one of the guys that put him, that
got him a band be award. His company did and
organized that. But anyway, so his brother, he paid for it.
His brother was going through intense therapy and and the

(43:40):
first indication of what first came out of Frank's mouth
was he didn't come out fully and say it, but
he's like little Alders having a little problem right now,
al those having a little problem right now and uh
and and then later we find out, after leaving Neverland
and out of being the first one to someone come

(44:02):
forward to a therapist that this had occurred again, the
same thing with Altough. Nothing happened, nothing happened, nothing happened
that was publicly and privately. And then all of a sudden,
leaving Neverland comes out. It's like a punch and uh,
all of a sudden, these memories come back, and they
started to come to the conclusion that no, no, no, I'm
a victim and I've been hiding this.

Speaker 2 (44:25):
Do you have any information? Well, first of all, the
cast your family do they? Do you have any videos?
Does the cast your family have any videos or any
kind of family information?

Speaker 1 (44:33):
Do they have video? Uh of improper conduct? No? I
don't believe they. You know again, you know, it's such
a weird, interesting situation. Get people in our community in
Bournon County, New Jersey that say, why would you let
your kids around Michael. You're allowing them to go to
your Disney and tours alone, turning a blind eye to this.

(44:58):
But you're getting paid money, getting money for restaurants, You're
getting money for this, You're getting gifts you're getting travel
around the world, so you just allowed Michael to do
what they wanted with your children. Kind of a similar
pattern with the other families if you really analyze it.
And the only improper information that I found really was

(45:18):
that that video ordering section with naked naked families that
was at their house. It seemed like they were hiding
information at their house to cover up for Michael, and
I think that's what Frank did. You know, Frank, from
what I feel now, was an abuse victim that assisted
him because maybe he was scared and just being an
abuse victim, this is how it operates. He didn't want

(45:40):
it out and covered up for Michael. He was engaged
in a lot of the behaviors as Michael, and he
may have helped out. Like during the trial we found
out with Gavin and saw he was setting up the
laptop to show these kids pornography in the bedroom with Michael.
Where that whole thing was, I think it was with
got milk, you know, when he was showing these naked

(46:01):
women into them. And then they made the argument that's
how they got that, that's how Michael. One way he
got these kids aroused before he sexually abused them.

Speaker 2 (46:10):
Right, What do you know about some of the destroyed
hard drives that were in the search work weren't.

Speaker 1 (46:16):
Execution, I don't know too much about that. Okay, Yeah,
we were, we were. We were a little bit on
the outside. We were in New Jersey. We kind of
stayed out of the lines. Then we I did fly
out and speak to SNET. And one one reason why
I wanted to clear my name, I felt like I
didn't do anything wrong. I actually helped the family. I
did several things of taking the taking the mother to

(46:37):
family court in front of a judge during the hosted situation.
I took her to court in Los Angeles to win
in his child support against her husband because she showed
me a picture of her beaten by her husband. So
there's a lot of beneficial things I was doing for
the family. And I did my best of care and
help this family, even though being accused and falsely accused
of many things. But you know, we were a little

(46:59):
bit on the outside during the trial. Besides to be
flying out there and we only heard the allegations with
Tom snedd in to his public relations firm, then to
the media, then to us. You know, in the as
you know almost like one in the public. But we
were associated with the trial while being in the public,
listening to these allegations through the media.

Speaker 2 (47:21):
From the outside. I don't know what can imagine what
all that could have been, like, this is the biggest
trial in the freaking world. Man, and a friend of mine
it was a cop down there and worked on all
that stuff too. He's the police chief. Done then now
and it's just chaos. You know, it's like just to meagine,
and you know, I mean, we're not going to make
any friends doing his interview either with the fans.

Speaker 1 (47:48):
So I have to not tell I work in business.
I went to a world school. You know. It seems
like we're having a conversation. You know, your background is
not to slander. Everybody's to investigate, you know, some of
what you've done. And you know, I mean, what the
incentives do we have to to manipulate the public, tell

(48:09):
people what we want to tell them. It is no,
we want to tell the truth. Let people figure it out,
put the information forward. Maybe you know there there starts
to maybe someone in the in the government is going
to listen and watch this and bring and start put
the puzzle together based on what they know, the point
of it is that I have a research background. It's
about sharing information, putting information together, putting this puzzle together,

(48:32):
and getting an understanding of what was really a current
and how and how much these kids are victims, how
big are victims they really are and for a prolonged
period of time.

Speaker 2 (48:42):
Do you think there's any other perpetrators that Michael Jackson
have any friends who was sharing these kids with?

Speaker 1 (48:47):
That's very interesting. You know, during the investigation with Jeffrey Epstein,
you know I heard that Michael was associated or been
to Jeffrey Epstein. Oh really, yeah, there was coming out
of some of the attorneys. I can't name them, but
you know, then they questioned me, I know you were
to Michael, did you did you do know anything that

(49:09):
Michael was associated with Jeffrey EPs And I said, you
know what, let me call hold on and I had
a relationship with Frank. Let me call He goes, Oh,
I have Jeffrey Epstein's cell phone in my uh a
cell phone number in my cell phone. Uh. And I
said all right, and he goes, but no, no, no, Michael
never met him. But then I found out later on
that the attorney that there there could have been a
possibility that they actually met and Frank had him in

(49:32):
his contactless and would speak to him and had spoken
to him. So usually when Frank has speaking to him
and met these individuals, he usually introduced him to Michael,
or Michael wants to get in touch with them, so
he has Frank call them. So they're in some of
the attorneys in this Epstein Uh in this Epstein Uh saga.
You know, we're asking me and my wife, you know,

(49:54):
if there was this association with Michael and they met
and they were in the house together, from what I say,
I don't know, but from what Frank told me, there
was a very good possibility in having him in his
cellphone and speaking to him.

Speaker 2 (50:06):
Incredible small world, you know, it is one way to
look at this, you know. Yeah, But besides Epstein and
anybody else, they don't have to be a celebrity. But
any indication said Michael Jackson had buddies his own age
that he was doing this with.

Speaker 1 (50:19):
Well, you know, it's weird. He would bring people to
the ranch. The current owner of the ranch is Ron Burkle.
I met him, seemed like a good guy. Found out
years later or when I was there, he was there
with a young girl, and he stayed in the house
in one of his guest suites like Elizabeth Taylor Sweet
or the other I forget the name of that. We

(50:40):
did one of these young girls. I'd later find out
years later he was married and he was bringing young
girls to the ranch and she was my age or younger,
because I remember having a conversation with her and I'm at
the ranch and he gets visibly upset with me, like
that's my girl, stay away. I'm like, no, I'm not
trying to pick up your girl, but I'm like a
little younger. You ought to be like the Epstein age. Yeah,

(51:03):
uh so that's possible.

Speaker 2 (51:06):
Burkele people.

Speaker 1 (51:08):
I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 (51:09):
Yeah, Berkele has his allegations around Berkeley.

Speaker 1 (51:12):
Yeah, and I saw I saw a young girl my
age are younger that he brought to the ranch staying
in a little room together. What do you think they
were doing? And and then I find out that's right,
they're alligation. That's why part it to my mind, the allocations,
and who knows, they could have been one of the Epsteiners.
But I'm not going to make that allegation or accusation.

(51:33):
I didn't eve want to put that out. But you
know you're dealing with the young girl. Where do you
get that these all these wealthy men and stuff like that,
we're all connected in some form or fashion.

Speaker 2 (51:44):
What what caused you to part ways with the Michael
Jackson estate the business?

Speaker 1 (51:51):
Okay, so you know the trial was one of them. Uh.
Prior to the investigation the week before, two weeks before,
a month before we were in LA we moved back
out to New Jersey and we started working on a
merchandising project. Think global merchandising project. We're gonna sell Michael merchandise.
T shirts and hats and video games. All of a

(52:14):
sudden we come out to New Jersey. The investigation, Thompson
raised the ranch. That ended it. But now we were
associated still with Mike Call up to two thousand and five.
Me I was still associated with him because I had
to go through the whole investigation and the trial with him,
because my name was associated because I was there and
around the family at that time period and being the

(52:36):
labeled and unindicted coop conspirator. So that was my association
that continued. Where I parted ways was and really broke
the relationship in many ways, was when I found that magazine,
which if you had found it, or someone a detective

(52:56):
or anyone found it, would lead you to the conclusion
that there was an instances or instances of sexual abuse.
I ended up collecting information. I had information, and I
brought it out and had a conversation about an interview,
about a six to seven hour interview with Tom Snedden
and his DA's office to bring light to that, to

(53:17):
inform them of that and to somewhat clear my name
and give a truthful story. After I did that, everything
kind of led up in Santa Barbara. They really late,
you know, all of a time, the media stops for
me in it, because they had their public relations specialists,
you know, put out the information they wanted to. But
at that time period about two months later when they

(53:39):
found out I went in December of two thousand and four,
I didn't tell anyone. By April two thousand and four,
when Thompson ned and filed the motion saying Vincent Amen
went out and met with us, that was the end
of the relationship with Michael Jackson and the Jackson.

Speaker 2 (53:59):
Girl. Yeah, it sounds good, And now what about the
way did you tell him about this indication of child
porn purchasing, and why wouldn't they make it to trial?

Speaker 1 (54:11):
You. Well, we had we had some of an issue
because I had this Joe Takapina at the time, this
attorney that I hired. I have bank I have checks
that I have from the bank that show his name
on it that I still have that I kinged him
when I found this child pornography magazine. Some people call

(54:33):
it legal child pornography, some people called child pornography. Some
people called the video child pornography that he watched U
But Joe Takapina went in a different direction because I
brought Frank in to this defense, my defense, and I said,
you know, Joe, I got a friend, Frank, who's also
involved in this. He should have informed me that there
was a conflict. But Joe's always involved with these conflict

(54:53):
of interests that he don't care. The legal systems don't care.
I don't know that the government doesn't do anything. But anyway,
so there was a conflict. Now I understand the whole
conflict situation because I was twenty at the time. The
legal conflicts. So he chooses Frank over me to represent
Frank because he's a defense attorney. He's a criminal defense attorney,
so he hides information and hides defense. I'm like, no, no, no,

(55:16):
I have to bring this out because he's probably sexually
abusing kids. So I end up having to leave this representation.
And he kicked Frank and then he went on to
somewhat represent Frank. Later on, we find out and I
would love if you got in touch with Jones, said,
you know, where's the child pronong for magazine? I'm in
this office, Frank's next to me. I had it in

(55:38):
my bag to kind of go over it with Joe
and Frank, and Joe goes give me that magazine. Wow,
And I was like, I mean, I'm like, Frank's next
to me, So what was I supposed to do? No,
I'm bringing out to the government. So I handed it
over to him, thinking that he was gonna, you know,
maybe have a conversation with me to call sned In
and he just takes it and hides it and he

(55:58):
still has it to this day.

Speaker 2 (56:00):
Incredible.

Speaker 1 (56:02):
But I go out and even though he did that,
I explained to the DA this is the story that happened.
How I'm telling you. But Joe Takatina has it. I
don't know, they never I don't know where they're scared
of Joe. I want to call him. They didn't want
to investigate it. But that's what happened.

Speaker 2 (56:17):
Incredible, that's an incredible story. Have you ever told that
story before?

Speaker 1 (56:21):
I have, I really haven't told that story before. I
I have done a couple uh docuseries, documentaries, uh two
that are not out yet that are coming out, And
I think I told that in one of my stories.
But uh, you know, then then you know, you see
Joe representing all these all these high level criminals, and
and look, I have no ill will for Joe, but

(56:43):
this is x y Z that happened. Uh you know.
Then he goes out to represent President Trump. Fine, he
leaves his representation, and I'm saying to myself, Joe, I
saw you did with Frank. Who's hiding this? This this
magazine which determines sexual abuse going on? What are you
hiding of all your other clients? I don't think that.

(57:05):
I don't think a defense attorney, a criminal defense there
is supposed to be hiding information so that you can
win a case. I know, I know in a perfect world,
the prosecution is not perfect, and everyone's trying to get
the one up and the edge, but you know, doing that,
and then then he goes on to represent I've been
watching you're on vanderslout. You know what did he put
that mother throat? You know, Natalie Holloway's mother. What do

(57:27):
you put missus Holloway throw? If he was hiding information
or he knew information took that long to get to
a conclusion in the Holloway case. And Joe Takapina and
Rosemary Arnold, I believe from New Jerseys representing, uh this,
you're on Vandersuit down in Aruba, and he's down in Aruba.

Speaker 2 (57:43):
And that's how Like Vandersloon has a lot of money either,
like you know, because he wrote a paycheck, so you
know how how much? Yeah, well you listen, I'm criminal
defense investigating in forty five years. Everyone deserves a vigorous defense.
Everything off, you know. But there's certain cases you don't take, okay,
there's certain people you don't talk to, you know, and yeah.

Speaker 1 (58:06):
You don't hide from the government and from the community.

Speaker 2 (58:08):
Well that's that's it. That's even very dedicated. It's extremely vigorous.
That's extremely vigorous defense, almost like a co defense. What
do you make in this think because almost out of time,
and I'd love to have you back, man. You can
come back.

Speaker 1 (58:24):
Anytime you want to Thank you and speaking to you.

Speaker 2 (58:27):
Great stuff. Man. Now what about and there's so much
more we can talk about, But what do you make
about the Paris Jackson man that she's unfollowed prince and
Michael Jackson Prince of Jackson and on their Instagram and
she's had Michael Jackson tattoos removed? What do you make
of all that? You know anything?

Speaker 1 (58:45):
I don't know too much about that. I just heard
of the issue in the media where she's saying that
there's improper billing and the executors of the estate, and
she's somewhat vocal, and that's okay. I mean, she has
a right to what her father accomplished and and how
the executors that he put in place turned it around,
because I remember being there. He was in significant debt,

(59:08):
couldn't make the monthly payments and they sold off, you know,
parts of the catalog. And she's been pretty voteful. I mean,
she has a right to be. She is the daughter
of Michael Jackson. I don't know too much about removing
of this. Is you know, someone news to me removing
off tattoos of Michael. Is that what she was engaged in?

Speaker 2 (59:24):
That's what I was told. I was some people gave
me a list of questions to ask you, and I
was they wouldn't know. She has a very interesting Instagram too.
It seems like she's very intellect the occult and you know,
you have.

Speaker 1 (59:37):
To check out. Yeah, I get to worry about something.

Speaker 2 (59:40):
Did you say anything like that at the Netherland Ranch?
And was it run down? Was anything like? Was it
well kept up or was it a situation over there
at the ranch?

Speaker 1 (59:48):
No, it was well kept up. Employees were paid late,
but they kept working. They enjoyed what they did. It
was well kept. Paris and Prince were there were very young.
They were they were little kids. Uh, Michael had Grace
Rowamba as he's baby nanny, babysittle pair that would take

(01:00:11):
care of the kids. And I meant Paris and Prince
when they were just children, you know, they were really young.
Now I see them all growing up and you know,
trying to make their own way, and uh, you know,
I hope the best for them.

Speaker 2 (01:00:27):
When they were little kids, that they seemed like they
were well adjusted because sometimes you see little kids and
they just had that far away look in their eye,
like they're just not and you kind of hurt for them.

Speaker 1 (01:00:36):
But what I mean, they were cared for. They all
their needs were taken care of.

Speaker 2 (01:00:41):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:00:41):
It was just really interesting how Michael was putting on blanket.
I believe it was blanket that or he was covering
all the kids' faces. Yeah, I understand why. And he
didn't want pictures of them, of them to be world renowned.
I mean, they're pretty pretty, they're pretty much uh you know,
celebrities today. You know, they're pretty much in the media,

(01:01:02):
so I guess you couldn't shield that as they got older.
But you know, when they were kids, I think maybe
Michael did do the right thing and protecting his children
by not having their faces plastered all over the media.
Especially when they were young. I didn't see them as distant.
I saw them as you know, they were young. They're
really young, so I saw that. You know, I had
to be three, four or five years old. I mean

(01:01:22):
I'm forty five right now. How old's Paris She's in
her late twenty thirties.

Speaker 2 (01:01:29):
Yeah, seems like a we had to be four years old,
do you have kids that have you raised kids of
your own?

Speaker 1 (01:01:36):
Yeah, I have two children, once on his way to college,
which is great. He's really excited. So I do have
two children of our own, two boys.

Speaker 2 (01:01:44):
So I guess when you were in your twenties, you
didn't have kids then, and you saw Michael's kids. But
looking back now, what do you think they compared to
your own kids? You think they were happy kids.

Speaker 1 (01:01:53):
I do think they were happy kids. They had all
the amenities in the world. They were at the beck
and call, the you know, whatever they want it. People
had to, you know, take care of them. They had
a full time Danny h you know where Michael was
deficient and being with his kids, you know, uh, you know,
because there was again we're back to the drug use

(01:02:15):
and sleeping all day and getting up at night and
working in the studio and then doing drugs. You know.
But at the end of the day, he knew that
he had to have his kids taken care of and
he did do that. I think I don't recall and
remember him being around his family to like, you know,
like in many parents' lives, they have their family around

(01:02:38):
them that assist with their children. I didn't see that
I didn't see missus Jackson, his mother or father, you know,
at the ranch and taking care of the kids, and
his brothers and his sisters. Maybe having a you know,
other American family would but you know, but then since
he didn't have the family around them taking care of them,

(01:02:59):
he had paid employees taking care of him. Which also
people have you know.

Speaker 2 (01:03:07):
And what do you make of that? In Michael's relationship
with his brothers and sisters and his parents, that seems
they the whole bunch seems like really out there.

Speaker 1 (01:03:15):
Yeah, yeah, well I met his father once at the Havenhurst.
I had to go to haven Hurst and pick up
some items for the production. I met his father was
nice to me. I haven't met his mother or the brothers.
I met other family members. He made one of his
family members his personal assistant. I think his name is

(01:03:36):
Anthony Jackson. But you know, so I'm not too familiar
with them, But now I'm getting more When I speak
to people, people are opening up that are close to
the Jackson family and the Jackson stand and I want
to name them some reporters, and they're saying, well, okay,
you have this position. As I've spoken to you and

(01:03:57):
your audience today, and they're saying, you have this certain
position and but but but you know, Michael may be
an abuse victim of Joe Jackson. And I said, I
understand that, and then he went on to abuse. But
we can't use that as justification for abusing children many
many times and many kids. No, but that is a victim.

(01:04:17):
Michael may be a victim of his father. But again,
now we don't have Michael to confirm that.

Speaker 2 (01:04:23):
Yeah, but and you look at other family members, you
know that the like LaToya. You know, I hate to
point at me in this particular, but LaToya who wound
up with that crazy Uh?

Speaker 1 (01:04:32):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:04:33):
Jack Gordon Man, I was, hey, I was out there man,
you know, anyway, is there anything I have an answer
you want the audience to know about?

Speaker 1 (01:04:42):
No? You well, one of the things was was that
I guess you know, going into the trial, you know,
I was around Janner or Vizo. I did my best
to help them. I talk about this on on this
Future shows that I'm I'm on. I tell a lot
about and I can go to many times where I
help this family. And I come to a conclusion with
Janet that you know, whenever she was blamed or did

(01:05:06):
something wrong. She was trying to turn it and blame
someone else, which was me, So I was very hurt
by it. During the trial, she did get me involved
by some of the lies she told. One thing that
still bothers me to this day. I cared about that
family and making sure Gavin went to the doctor. I
was driving them down from the ranch to Kaiser Permanente

(01:05:28):
in Los Angeles, which is one of the hospitals to
have his kidneys checked. In a felp a bottle of urine.
This was a direct line where it's a he shaid.
He said, she said, we're on the way down. She
accidentally or deliberately spills the urine because she knew her
son was drinking with Michael, which she admitted. Okay. She

(01:05:48):
then turns around and blames me. I'm in global media
saying I spilled the urine to Steiny a test I
get out. I just got out of school. All my friends,
the community, they're like, that doesn't make sense, we know
you wouldn't do that. However, just to get that out
still bothers me to this day that she deliberately spilled
this year in because the motive was with her that

(01:06:09):
she knew Michael was drinking with her son, and then
she turns around and blames me because she doesn't want
to get in trouble with Santa Barbara diy attorney's office.
So that's where I can of.

Speaker 2 (01:06:21):
Oh, I got, But what do you think of the
Gavin allegations? What do you do you believe Gavin?

Speaker 1 (01:06:27):
You know now? I mean at first I didn't. Then
when I saw that instance of the magazine, I said, well,
there's a possibility being around Janitor or Viso in her
saying certain things to me like you don't understand. When
I asked her directly, this really happened to your son,
because I would have taken them to the authorities if
she actually came forward and told me this. You know,
I said to her, I said, uh, you know, did

(01:06:50):
this a curse because you don't understand? And I said,
I don't know what that meant. You know, I was
again I didn't know about sexwel abuse and kids out
of college. So there is a possibility that Gavin was abused,
you know, there was There is a very good possibility.
All these kids are coming out now he was strong
enough to come out when he was younger. It'd be
interesting to have him speak, and if he had the

(01:07:11):
strength to you know, he did have strength come out
when he was younger. If he had the strength come
out now, I think more people would be receptive of it.
I don't know if he's gonna want to detail it
like safe Chuck and Robson or maybe Frank coming out soon.
But you know, if he came out and said it
in a certain way to not make himself feel hurt
or bad or embarrassed, I think people would be more

(01:07:33):
receptive to it.

Speaker 2 (01:07:35):
There was such an avalanche of opposition though from the fans,
you know, it's just yeah, overwhelming, you know. And how
is his health now? Did he overcome the CANCID?

Speaker 1 (01:07:44):
You know from when I was there, he did. From
when I was there. Did he have one kidney and
then he had to have a checked. I think it
was he had the tumor in his kidney. I had,
you know, just as I'm having conversation with you, I
had this very intimate conversations with his mother because I
was around Janet ur Viso, and and he he beat

(01:08:05):
the cancer and then he just had to have follow
up off cancer post cancer treatment. And then one of
the things was was having kidney dye tests, which I
took him for getting the bottles for him to do
this urine test and having his urine tests. And I
don't know where he's at now, but it seems like
he's healthy and he's maintained being cancer free, which is

(01:08:26):
gonna lose. And and back then from when I met him,
which was two thousand and three February March, you know
he had already beaten it. Interested in follow up post cancer,
post cancer treatment of idiot.

Speaker 2 (01:08:44):
Yeah, what a life he's been through to just you know, yeah,
now what about what you know? One of the things
real quick, Chris Tucker. You know that whole story about
Chris Tucker put on a pick him up on his
private plane, and do you know anything about that?

Speaker 1 (01:08:57):
Yeah? I was around there when Chris Tucker was there.
Chris Sucker was staying on the ranch, uh with Michael,
kind of like best friends with Michael staying at the
ranch all the time, traveling with him. I don't look,
I have to recall this, have to go through my notes.
Are you talking about the plane flight where Michael where
he used Chris Stucker's plane and he was Michael offered

(01:09:18):
him whining the cocaine or oh no.

Speaker 2 (01:09:21):
I didn't hear that story. I'm thinking about when the
story broke with up this shaer of thing, Michael, Michael
Jackson told Chris Ducker, hey, go scoop up Gavin and
get him out of there away from the press.

Speaker 1 (01:09:34):
Okay there, I mean, there's always a possibility. I know
they were in a private plane down to the Turnberryer
in Miami actually Miami, uh, for a press conference. I
didn't hear that, which is possibility, you know in the beginning,
Michael panicking. But you know I found out. I knew

(01:09:55):
at the time he won on another private jet and
that's when he gave Gavin alcoholic we want.

Speaker 2 (01:10:01):
Right, okay. And interesting that Chris Tucker later on appears
on the Jeffrey Epstein plane.

Speaker 1 (01:10:07):
Oh he's on the He's on the flight logs.

Speaker 2 (01:10:10):
Yeah, along with Bill Clinton and I think Kevin you.

Speaker 1 (01:10:14):
Know, there's a lot of Yeah, there's a lot of
the A level A list uh and uh politicians involved
him going to these islands and on the flight logs,
and I know, well all well to about that and
dealing with that situation.

Speaker 2 (01:10:31):
It is a small world, as they say, Vincent f
a man you could find an Vincent f Ammen dot com.
He's on Twitter, he's on Instagram. He hardly uses it though,
but check it out anyway. Michael Jackson's trial duror notebook
and what's in that book?

Speaker 1 (01:10:48):
Well, you know, it was really difficult to kind of
conceptualize what I wanted to do with it. Uh, you
have to you have to know a little bit about
the trial. Do some reading about the trial, and then
it will make more sense. I wanted to publish what
this duror offered. You know, I originally purchased the notebooks.
I read through it. It was good chronological order and

(01:11:08):
and and and uh, and the summarization of what the
witness has said, which now is my point. What does
a juror note based on physical and verbal evidence to
ultimately come to a conclusion? You had about one hundred
and eighty wigguses, and there's a there's about what is
there almost four hundred pages to my book? And and

(01:11:29):
and if you you couldn't even you know, if you
put all the trial transcripts on top of one another,
it be twenty feet tall. So what does he capture?
What or what does heart or he capture as a
duror to ultimately come to a conclusion of herdict. So
that's what I try to answer, And that's the kind
of question I put out in my book. I actually,
you know, lightly edited the book I wanted to give.
I wanted to show the public this is what a

(01:11:51):
drawer notes down during a trial. How would that be
beneficial to defense attorneys or prosecutors?

Speaker 2 (01:12:00):
Details in the book that the public wouldn't be aware
of that you'd like them to know.

Speaker 1 (01:12:04):
Well, you know, one of the things was jenneral Viso
accused everyone of holy her hostage. Yeah, ron Z, don't.
The prosecutor of Santa Barbara's just int theaters attorney who
tried the case, his wife, who was a witness at
the trial, Luis Polanco, basically said she had hostage syndrome.

(01:12:26):
That's in my Joran notebooks. That was highlighted, and that
was one of the allegations that people helped her hostage.
And her friend at the time, Lewis Planker, who helped
the family, said, you know there's a problem here, and
it's in trial transcripts, it's in the jury notebooks, and
he really really, you know, put a little attention to
this in the books. Is that she said that this

(01:12:47):
Janet or Viso, the mother of Gavin, had hostage syndrome.
I know you have to be a psychiatrist and this
and that and the certification. But for someone in the
public that you know, that is a somewhat celebrated celebrity
to come to a conclusion and she's you know, intelligent,
and she testified to come to a conclusion that she

(01:13:08):
had hostile syndrome. Se my joint notebooks. In the trial transcript,
most people wouldn't hear that, and that was the main
part of the allegation. And the funny thing is is
that ron Tonan went on to marry her. So my
position is with him. Please ask her about that. Excuse
me of holding her hostage. But your wife said she
had hostage syndrome. Have that conversation at breakfast.

Speaker 2 (01:13:29):
There's so many twists and turns in this story. Man,
how about you writing a book? Man?

Speaker 1 (01:13:34):
From your perspective, you know, I I did have a
I have an agent. I can go through I go
to uh out in London. I can write a book
about my experience. I can now, you know, I waited.
I can go into this Epstein. What is it like
being a husband of Epstein victim. I can put that
together of understanding of sexual abuse of these children of

(01:13:56):
Michael Jackson sphere and uh. I will eventually write a book.
I I you know, honestly, I have all my notes
and I have a book that I have has to
just be edited. One day I may put it out.
You know. I have to deal with the Jackson fans,
which is fine, you're just doing it for money and
this and that. I'm doing it the story out.

Speaker 2 (01:14:18):
And you mentioned before that you participated in a couple
of documentary film projects in the works now that are
coming out. What can we look forward to?

Speaker 1 (01:14:24):
Yeah, one is Dan Reid's network UK Channel four. I'm
allowed to say that I'm gonna be on that was public.
I'm gonna be on that next year. It's in editing
and it's eventually out. So Channel four is gonna be out.
I think they're gonna release it The Neverland Leaving Neverland.

Speaker 2 (01:14:41):
Two.

Speaker 1 (01:14:41):
They couldn't go to HBO because Jackson the State sued HBO,
so they didn't have the distribution in the United States,
so they went with this YouTube. That's gonna be interesting
to see next year. How it's gonna be distributed in
the US, it's gonna be in the UK and probably Europe.
And then there's I can't discribe. I can't I'm not
allowed to disclose the other one. There is another docucrees,

(01:15:02):
but I'm under confidentiality of who and where. But it's
gonna be a streaming service that's gonna be worldwide.

Speaker 2 (01:15:10):
Gotcha. Well, after that one comes out, the top secret one,
I'd love to have you come back and we'll fill in.
But otherwise and can come back. An't tell me why
I told me.

Speaker 1 (01:15:17):
This is great. It was great speaking to you. I
enjoyed it. And uh, I hope this was impactful and
your audience gets an understanding of you know, what I've
been through in the information I'm able to present to
you and your audience.

Speaker 2 (01:15:28):
Yeah, and you come up so genuine. You know what
I mean that people really need to see this. You
know that they're some behind the scenes and they're honesty
and genuine. Vincent f Amen, Vincent fi men dot com.
You can find them on Twitter Vincent f im N
A m E N. And also to the book is
Michael Jackson's Trial Juror Notebook. Mister Amen, thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (01:15:49):
Thank you very much. It's a pleasure. Good okay, good
night to