November 28, 2025 • 25 mins
The new ‘Yield Mode’ feature integrates Aave to offer non-custodial, onchain yield directly within Tangem’s app. The Black Friday deal wraps up with the $10 bonus in BTC. Also, keep in mind that the deal remains valid from November 21, 2025, to December 9, 2025.Â
~This episode is sponsored by Tangem~
Tangem 20% OFF + $10 BTC ➜ https://bit.ly/TangemPBN
Use Code: "PBN" for Additional Discounts!
GUEST: Marcos Nunes, CEO of Tangem Pay
00:00 Intro
00:10 Tangem Black Friday deal
01:00 Users on Tangem
01:20 Self-custody instant spending
03:30 Tangem swap speed
04:30 Launch date?
05:20 When more providers like coinbase or robinhood?
07:30 Buying crypto directly on Tangem Pay
09:30 How will retailers see transactions?
10:50 Will you need Banking license?
11:30 Including RLUSD yields?
12:50 What blockchains are you using for stablecoins?
14:00 Why not a Tangem POS system?
17:15 Tangem Pay vs bank cards
19:30 Banks using stablecoins
20:30 Will CLARITY Act try to kill privacy and self-custody?
21:30 Are CEX Debit Cards dead?
24:45 Outro
#CryptoÂ
~Black Friday Crypto Wallet Now PAYS YOU!? 💰 Tangem Pay Yield Mode🚨CEO INTERVIEW~
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~ The Best Self Custody Wallet ➜ https://tangem.com/en/ Use Code PBN for Additional Discounts!
~ The Best Crypto Exchange ➜ Coinbase, get up to $200 in crypto - coinbase-consumer.sjv.io/BARRON
~ Looking for the best tax havens for Crypto? Free Month with iTrust Capital ➜ Use PROMO CODE - PAUL BARRON https://rebrand.ly/PAULBARRON
~This episode is sponsored by Tangem~
Tangem 20% OFF + $10 BTC ➜ https://bit.ly/TangemPBN
Use Code: "PBN" for Additional Discounts!
GUEST: Marcos Nunes, CEO of Tangem Pay
00:00 Intro
00:10 Tangem Black Friday deal
01:00 Users on Tangem
01:20 Self-custody instant spending
03:30 Tangem swap speed
04:30 Launch date?
05:20 When more providers like coinbase or robinhood?
07:30 Buying crypto directly on Tangem Pay
09:30 How will retailers see transactions?
10:50 Will you need Banking license?
11:30 Including RLUSD yields?
12:50 What blockchains are you using for stablecoins?
14:00 Why not a Tangem POS system?
17:15 Tangem Pay vs bank cards
19:30 Banks using stablecoins
20:30 Will CLARITY Act try to kill privacy and self-custody?
21:30 Are CEX Debit Cards dead?
24:45 Outro
#CryptoÂ
~Black Friday Crypto Wallet Now PAYS YOU!? 💰 Tangem Pay Yield Mode🚨CEO INTERVIEW~
⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺⎺
Join our community!
Barron Market Edge (FREE)➜ https://www.paulbarronnetwork.com/barron-market-edge-signup
Private Telegram Group (FREE) ➜ https://t.me/+nISqoMxrok40NTcx
Subscribe on YouTube ✅ https://bit.ly/PBNYoutubeSubscribe
X/Twitter 📱 http://bit.ly/PBNtwitter
Get official PBN merch! ➜ https://merch.paulbarronnetwork.com/
~ The Best Self Custody Wallet ➜ https://tangem.com/en/ Use Code PBN for Additional Discounts!
~ The Best Crypto Exchange ➜ Coinbase, get up to $200 in crypto - coinbase-consumer.sjv.io/BARRON
~ Looking for the best tax havens for Crypto? Free Month with iTrust Capital ➜ Use PROMO CODE - PAUL BARRON https://rebrand.ly/PAULBARRON
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Let's get into what we're going to be talking about today,
which is Tangum Pay. You guys have seen our Tangum
cards a lot. They're one of our channel partners. Well,
today we're going to break down how tanguent pay is
going to work. You don't want to miss it. Let's
just jump right in. I want to bring in the
CEO of tanguent Pay, Marcos Nunyez. How are you very good?
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Very good? Thank you Paul for having me here.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Absolutely listen, we're recording this as of Black Friday here
in the United States. Tangum has an amazing deal. You
guys can of course jump over and get twenty percent
off plus a ten dollars bitcoin reward.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
So this is the time.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
If you haven't done self custody yet, this is the
time you want to do it. It's it's worth the
time to go out and do it. And you probably
everybody's off eating you know, you just had turkey. Everybody's
sitting down watching some football. I understand that Americans do
that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Take some time, go out and get this started. We
got to get into this.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Marcos, how many First of all, how many users are
on tangum today that.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Actually holds the hardware Wallet nearly a million monthly active users,
about three hundred and fifty kay majority of Denverar City
in the US.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
That's amazing. Oh, that's amazing.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
A lot of our users are going to be, you know,
watching football as you say.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Yes, yes, for sure.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
You guys also had a big update around Tangent pay.
I was talking to some of your team. This is
a pretty amazing leap forward when you think about financial services.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
I'll go to your website real quick.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
This is self custody instance spending. So explain to me
how I can do this with a self custody wallet
using a Visa essentially the Visa.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Credit card network. How does this work? Explain a little
bit more about it.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
So, from a user perspective, it works exactly the same
as the traditional card. You basically have a pin code
and you can just go into any terminal and as
long as you have balance in your spend account, you
can just you know, tap and pay. So but in reality,
(02:07):
what happens behind the scenes. Essentially, you launch, you send
USDC if you're spending account directly from your hardware ballet.
So you have your hardware wallet account, you swap and
send one click, and then you basically download your visa card.
(02:28):
You would still need to go uh KYC for this
product specifically, the worre your product, your Tangent is not
going to be KYC, or your funds are not going
to be ky Seeds. Essentially, this specific account that is
going to be ky Seeds and everything that you move
into this account. Essentially you can just use any eternal
(02:49):
no addition, please. One hundred dollars is one hundred dollars
in spending, so it almost feels like a debit account
rather than a yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Can I go back same as your can I go
back and forth? Okay, so back and forth. If I
put more in there than I don't want to spend
on the card, I can flip it back over and
start earningield.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
It's not a gift card, it's not a prepaid card.
It's actually an account. So you essentially just spend anywhere,
just like dollars.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Okay, So Marcos, one question I have is the speed
in which transactions occur with this is I would say,
if I have one negative thing I look at around Tangent,
it's the speed in which a swap occurs. I want
to swap, whether it's on change Ley or you know,
many of the other ones that are out there, by
the time it shows back I know it's immediate on chain,
(03:41):
but by the time it shows back up in your wallet,
it might be you know, fifteen twenty minutes in some
cases an hour. What about with going into Tangent pay
is it instantaneous? What's the speed mechanism? Instant Okay?
Speaker 3 (03:55):
Perfect?
Speaker 2 (03:56):
So that basically yeah, I mean we rely on partners
for swap because we don't hold the swap functionality ourselves.
We just display and therefore you see this delays on
the on the swap itself, but effectively once you send
from directly to your wallet, and I mean it's immediately
(04:17):
out there. I mean if even if you have USDC directly,
if you want to use another provider for swap, I mean,
we don't lock in users to do things in our site.
But you just choose and you can dose.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Right Yeah, I'm looking at the website right now. You
can go in drop in your your residence. I know
this is going to be available in the United States
and you can join the wait list right now, So
you guys should do that.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
Yes, when is this going to launch Marcos.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
It's officially launched. We're basically you're using our community users
right now as beta users, but I expect to release
officially to everybody from December fifteenth onwards.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
Okay, and then when when would it be publicly available?
Speaker 2 (05:03):
All right? So December fifteen, we're going to start putting
it out. The more the users that I mean, the
ones that joined the waiting list gets first, and we
progressively deliver throughout the Okay from fifteen words.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Okay, So I'm looking at a couple of things here.
When you look at more providers that are coming, I'm
looking at one of your our screenshots here, just showing
you know the way that this will work. Who's that
going to be? Could we see someone like a coinbase
or a robin hood in here.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
From this swap? You mean?
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Yes, like you've got here just for for transactions, you know,
in terms of availability. Right now, I can use mercurial
if I want to access funds, do we could we
get at some point Coinbase or robin here to be
able to access crypt you know, whether it's USDC or
other crypto funds that I want to move into an asset.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Base you and move via what connects your funds into
Tangent harborre wallet. We're I mean, and we don't connect
those wallets with the hardware wallets, right, So I mean
you can definitely transfer those funds to the spending account.
(06:18):
I mean, the channel will always be via the harbor
wallet and not directly from the hobbying hoods or the
coin basis to the spending accounts. And the only reason
is we still run the KYT on the original funds,
so everything. The way you have to look at the
difference between the storage and the spending is actually in
(06:44):
the spending. We are compliant with everything that we must
be compliant with in order to provide the services. So
it's it's almost like a separate business within a business
because we are running KYT, we're running KYC. We're making
sure the experience of the user is not going through
tons of documentations to just open a bank account to
(07:08):
get the funds in and then you can spend it.
So the idea is that within three to five minutes
you can move whatever you want to spend into that
spending account.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
Perfect.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
We do want you to use the Harbor wallet and
your harbore wallet account in order to go through this
process of spending.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
So, once I'm in the Tangent pay account, would I
be able to buy crypto within that using it like
where you could There's some cards out there where you
just can buy directly in off of the account itself.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Anything like that going to happen.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Basically, it's a visa card and accepts any terminal or
any one of the one hundred and thirty million merchants
all over the world that accepts visa. Right, So, if
you want to buy crypto using that card and simply
massive balance in that account, if you can actually within
the Tungent app, if you can switch between different assets today,
(08:02):
the answer is not yet okay, and simply because I
mean again, let's the purpose is. First, we have a
million users that holds substantial amount of money and they
often have difficulties to offer REMP simply because they have
very complex KYC that they have to go through in
(08:26):
all the countries that we basically serve. And the idea
is to reduce that first pain. Then from there there
is a second pain. I want to go and spend
in my local currency. I don't want to spend in
dollars when I live, you know, in Europe. Then we're
going to allow different types of stables for the different markets,
(08:47):
but the ideas always have stables in the spending account
because the actual wealth should be sitting in the hardware wallet.
We don't want to mix, We don't want to confuse
the purposes. If you want to store and grow, that's
where you should use, you know, the hardware wallet and
and all the security around to protect your wealth. The
(09:09):
spending is your weekly money, Your monthly money is your
daily money. You choose, and and and and that should
be available like a debit card, even though uh so
it's mimics. Is your your your bank essentially, so a
bit of what can is going.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
To Yeah, and so they're cracking is launching their debit cards.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
So when you're going to a retailer, will they see
it as a debit card or will they see it
as a credit card?
Speaker 2 (09:38):
They will see it as a credit card, but it
will behave like a debit card, a debit card.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
So this is kind of I'm not seen one of
these before.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
It is we are trying to make something again. The
way to disrupt the world is not by basically saying,
you know, let's re everyone and and and you know,
try to reinvent the will, try to reinvent the network,
trying to reinvent, you know, the point of sale. I
(10:09):
think there's substantial infrastructure out there that we can leverage.
So our idea is to interoperate with the existing infrastructure
and from that moment onwards offer the experience that we
want our users to have. So if it's a debit transaction,
(10:30):
you know, we want them to have that feeling of
debit transaction. If they want credit, we will offer credit
in sometime from now, still in twenty six, but I
want them to behave like this should be their card
for everything they do from now onwards.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Yeah, I want to, and it will roadmap at the end.
But I'm kind of curious, is is there any plan
to get a banking license? I mean, you've got a
credit card or a debit card here at some point
is there would you want an a BA routing where
people could use it for that?
Speaker 2 (11:02):
We definitely don't need that, and we are coming up
with a h wire transfer. Okay, We're coming up with
everything without the need of that license.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Okay, Well, if you're if you're getting we respecting a banker, Okay,
I like that I like that. One other thing I
wanted to hit on also in today's call was to
talk about Tangum yield, because that's that's a big move
forward for Tangum as a whole.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Now, you've got all of these stable coins being powered
by AVE, which is where the yield is working. You
guys have announced this. I'm kind of curious when you
go into AVE. I'm over here on the core instance
there you can kind of see all the stable coins
that are in there. R l U s D is
in there as well. Would I be able to earn
yield on my r l U s D inside Tangum.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Yeah, So we have usd C and usd T basically
on the ute right now. The idea is to actually
connect that to the spending account, so basically you have
balanced sitting in the spending account instead of just you know,
being there not accruing value to the user. The idea
is that basically that money goes directly to your yield account,
(12:18):
and then you can authorize transactions from that yield account.
So we're going to start linking all of this account
behind the scenes as users are interested on, so truly
behaving like a like a bank and normally bankers do
not give yields back on checking the account. Well, we
(12:41):
want to be slightly different in that concept.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
What blockchain are you guys running on for these transactions.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Right now? Polygon? All right, and we've been criticized a
lot about that. Why Polygon? Why not other networks? But
I mean speed costs. We don't want our users to
pay gas fees on these transactions. One hundred dollars should
be one hundred dollars. And we have partnered with the
(13:08):
Polygon guys. They are supporting us in the I mean,
it behaves exactly like a card. It's two seconds, and
you're authorizing on chain balance. That's very important. This is
not off chain balance. This is on chain balance, so
the user are basically authorizing against it's the self custody account.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Okay, all right, these are all good things I think
as we see you guys, I mean we've we've of
course had you guys as a partner for a long time,
and I've seen the development of you know, a basic
you know, self custody wallet into a very active financial
instrument that is just continuing to grow.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
So kudos to everything you guys are doing.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
I'm kind of Okay, So let's take a look at
a couple other things we've We've had two things that
have played into this around payments. Part of this would
be in the area of point of sale terminals, things
like that you've got Burner, we had them on last week.
They're using kind of almost like a little gift card
to where you can use it as at a merchant.
(14:13):
With Tangium pay, you're going right into the visas system.
Is there a potential down the road where you could
somehow incorporate crypto into payment that could possibly link up
to a point a sale system that any retailer could
get access to.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
I will be blunt to answer not in the short term, okay,
and I don't see this happening in the next two
to three years. I would not spend time on this.
And it's not because the guys are doing something that
doesn't make sense. It's quite the country. I think it
makes a lot of sense. But our philosophy is to
disrupt within the existing infrastructure. Intropability allows users and adoption
(14:58):
to be a lot cheaper and faster. And the problem
I mean, I was the co CEO of a very
large financial business. We grew rapidly in fourteen countries, and
the acquiring side we had almost eight hundred thousand merchants.
(15:18):
And the problem of a merchant is, you know, they
are mamas and papa shops. They are not really familiar
with technology. They just want to receive as many currencies
as they can to sell more. They don't want to
think about different devices they want to They don't want
to think about different products. Like if you can give
them one device that transacts a thousand different types of currencies, perfect,
(15:40):
But if you give them five devices to make less
to cost lead, it's very difficult to make them adopt.
So in my view, using the network is great, and
I think there's a very misunderstanding of the cost and
the payments. Uh, these is not the main problem. The
(16:01):
problem is the tax stack of the banking industry. It's
from Cobo and mainframe, which were created in the sixties,
in the seventies, and the iPhone that my iPhone today
will probably be great in twenty thirty still needs to
talk to the nineteen sixties and nineteen seventies. So you
have so many aggregators, and today between a merchant and
(16:25):
a nicheer you have about fifteen players getting a little
slice of the transaction. So by introducing blockchain accounts in
connected into the visa network, we are able to go
back into that three party model, four party model, or
five party model in the worst case scenario. So I
(16:47):
think we have enough room to reduce the cost of
the transaction without having to go into the hardware or
re educating the merchants. And that's just a plea.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Yeah, if you can get to that level where you
can not only make it convenient but also change the cost,
even if it's just a fraction of a percent, that's
a big deal for a retailer overall. I think obviously
for the consumer side, you're hitting it, you know, in
terms of features though.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
That's normally you know the joke between the chicken and
the egg, Actually, yeah, it's always the egg. So in fact,
in the situation, you start from the issuing side because
that's the demand, and once the bin which is the
number associated with their card, touch the terminal, you can
recognize it's a stable account. From that moment, onward, Circle
(17:43):
or other tether decide to have a partnership with that merchant,
we can route the transaction than.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
That, right, there is a big okay, that changes my
thinking on this differently exactly, and then how merchants have
been able to deal with this in the past. That's
a very interesting point.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
You're just right, I think maybe.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
One tiny step deeper. Not to be too technical again,
but there's something called the single messaging and the dual messaging,
which are how do you deal with authorization, clearing and
settlement in a transaction? So authorize, okay, you can now
both take the goods, and once it's confirmed that transaction
(18:31):
was done by you through the authentication mechanisms, then you
settle with the schemes, so you clear and then you subtle.
The difference between single and dual is that single you
do authorization, clear and settlement in one message, and dual
you do authorizations separate from clearing and settlement. So we
(18:54):
can use the schemes to authorize because the network and
the infrastructures.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Already there, already there.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
But for clearing settlement you can make bilateral agreements with
stable providers, so you don't need to disrupt. You can
still use the schemes, and you can still use the
entire infrastructure of the work.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Exactly, you're something you're completely supplanting the old banking system
at that point, because then you would be looking at
a reroute on how that. I think the key there
is if retailers finally get to the point where there
they feel comfortable with stable coins, you're gonna be big
real retailers going to Tether and Circle and trying this
or someone like Ripple.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
All these guys would be able to do this.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
And maybe a little tip for those that think I'm
a bit crazy, look at Circle payment network well exactly
and try to try to, you know, understand behind the
scenes the move. So I am. I think I've been
in payments too long. I helped to create a lot
of the payment regulation all of the world, so I've
(19:58):
seen enough to understand that we can disrupt sufficiently just
by taking the garfields out before we actually replace technology.
So there's too many you know, people in between there
are not needed that you can just simply blik past them.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Are you at all worried about the Clarity Act here
in the US where if we get some pushback on
self custody. I think there's been questions about self custody.
There's a lot of Congress that are defending this adamantly.
Are you concerned about that at all?
Speaker 3 (20:32):
Right now?
Speaker 2 (20:36):
I mean right now not. I definitely think it's an
important topic. Obviously, we are supporters of the self custody.
The entire product is based on self custody. I am
a believer of choice, so open banking for me is
kind of a self custody concept. Yeah, because it's you know,
the data on chain should be freely moving from different
(20:58):
providers that I choose as a human. So self custody
is the only way for you to actually do this,
and it's full potential. But again, I actually think we
can work around this topic to get over with the authorities.
So hopefully we're called also to influence and this type
of topic. I'm behind the scenes trying to help as
(21:20):
much as possible for sure.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Last question to you, if you think about the centralized
exchange debit slash credit cards that are being touted out there,
what you guys have done is kind of combined the
idea of self custody with yield now along with tangrum
pay that kind of benefits both within one ecosystem. Do
you think the end of centralized exchange debit and credit
(21:45):
cards are coming near? Versus defiant self custody.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
I truly hope, because it's the most expensive mechanism a
user can have from a part, from the safety, security
and all the topics that we're all very familiar with.
I think it's just super costly. And the alternative that
we're bringing it behaves more as a typical financial institution
(22:13):
where users are going to feel more comfortable to migranting.
So if maybe I want to kind of paint a
little image of Dungeon where we're going so people can
kind of understand a bit of our vision. Imagine that,
you know, two hundred years ago, in Switzerland, we're a
Swiss business. People wanted to, you know, for through security
(22:39):
and safety. They wanted to bring their funds to Switzerland,
and then a manager would have a key and the
user would get a key, and then everything that you
put it in a safe could only be open with
those two keys. And then essentially you would go away
and then your muddy seeding there and you're totally, you know,
happy and secured that that was you know safe. Fast
(23:03):
forward two hundred years, we're replicating the exact same thing,
but without that manager. And what we learn in the
banking system is that one point it's not about just
keeping and storing funds in a secure place, but it's
also growing them over time and what products like they yields,
(23:24):
swaps and the different mechanims that we're bringing the Hopefully
we can come back here in one quarter to present
as well, it will be more about this growth and
this access to credit that users will be able to,
you know, increase their wealth, but at the same time
(23:45):
have the mechanims to spend the wealth. And then the
third block is actually the spending. So the eye buonds
the AH, the wire transfers, the peak skys, so whatever
it is for you to transfer, either because you want
to pay a rent or because you want to you know,
just use a debit card, credit card. So that is
(24:06):
the vision of Dungeum for twenty twenty six. Hopefully if
we can realize you know, fifty percent of that already,
I think our user base in our community is going
to be extremely excited about the banking rails of Fungeon.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
Yeah. Well, I've been watching you guys very closely.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Obviously was one of the reasons we partner with you
is the acceleration of new features, you know, because a
lot of companies kind of set on their hands. In blockchain,
they don't really come out with new products and services.
You guys have kind of been the opposite of that,
So kudos to what you guys are doing. Twenty twenty
six could be a big year for new stuff coming
from We're watching close on this one.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
Marcos.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Hey, it's been great having you on the show. Thank
you so much for coming in today. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Thank you very much. Paul.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
You bet, all right, you guys, you bet. If you
guys know what to do.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
If you are not in our private member group, which
is the Bear and Market Eds, you guys should be
there absolutely free to join, and all you have to
do is click the link down below. We'll also leave
a link down there for Tangum because you guys can
get into self custody. If you haven't done it, you
should be doing that as well. Follow me on x
at Paul Baron. We'll catch the next sign right here
on the Paul Baron Show.
Let's get into what we're going to be talking about today,
which is Tangum Pay. You guys have seen our Tangum
cards a lot. They're one of our channel partners. Well,
today we're going to break down how tanguent pay is
going to work. You don't want to miss it. Let's
just jump right in. I want to bring in the
CEO of tanguent Pay, Marcos Nunyez. How are you very good?
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Very good? Thank you Paul for having me here.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Absolutely listen, we're recording this as of Black Friday here
in the United States. Tangum has an amazing deal. You
guys can of course jump over and get twenty percent
off plus a ten dollars bitcoin reward.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
So this is the time.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
If you haven't done self custody yet, this is the
time you want to do it. It's it's worth the
time to go out and do it. And you probably
everybody's off eating you know, you just had turkey. Everybody's
sitting down watching some football. I understand that Americans do
that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
Take some time, go out and get this started. We
got to get into this.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Marcos, how many First of all, how many users are
on tangum today that.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Actually holds the hardware Wallet nearly a million monthly active users,
about three hundred and fifty kay majority of Denverar City
in the US.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
That's amazing. Oh, that's amazing.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
A lot of our users are going to be, you know,
watching football as you say.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Yes, yes, for sure.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
You guys also had a big update around Tangent pay.
I was talking to some of your team. This is
a pretty amazing leap forward when you think about financial services.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
I'll go to your website real quick.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
This is self custody instance spending. So explain to me
how I can do this with a self custody wallet
using a Visa essentially the Visa.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Credit card network. How does this work? Explain a little
bit more about it.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
So, from a user perspective, it works exactly the same
as the traditional card. You basically have a pin code
and you can just go into any terminal and as
long as you have balance in your spend account, you
can just you know, tap and pay. So but in reality,
(02:07):
what happens behind the scenes. Essentially, you launch, you send
USDC if you're spending account directly from your hardware ballet.
So you have your hardware wallet account, you swap and
send one click, and then you basically download your visa card.
(02:28):
You would still need to go uh KYC for this
product specifically, the worre your product, your Tangent is not
going to be KYC, or your funds are not going
to be ky Seeds. Essentially, this specific account that is
going to be ky Seeds and everything that you move
into this account. Essentially you can just use any eternal
(02:49):
no addition, please. One hundred dollars is one hundred dollars
in spending, so it almost feels like a debit account
rather than a yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Can I go back same as your can I go
back and forth? Okay, so back and forth. If I
put more in there than I don't want to spend
on the card, I can flip it back over and
start earningield.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
It's not a gift card, it's not a prepaid card.
It's actually an account. So you essentially just spend anywhere,
just like dollars.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Okay, So Marcos, one question I have is the speed
in which transactions occur with this is I would say,
if I have one negative thing I look at around Tangent,
it's the speed in which a swap occurs. I want
to swap, whether it's on change Ley or you know,
many of the other ones that are out there, by
the time it shows back I know it's immediate on chain,
(03:41):
but by the time it shows back up in your wallet,
it might be you know, fifteen twenty minutes in some
cases an hour. What about with going into Tangent pay
is it instantaneous? What's the speed mechanism? Instant Okay?
Speaker 3 (03:55):
Perfect?
Speaker 2 (03:56):
So that basically yeah, I mean we rely on partners
for swap because we don't hold the swap functionality ourselves.
We just display and therefore you see this delays on
the on the swap itself, but effectively once you send
from directly to your wallet, and I mean it's immediately
(04:17):
out there. I mean if even if you have USDC directly,
if you want to use another provider for swap, I mean,
we don't lock in users to do things in our site.
But you just choose and you can dose.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Right Yeah, I'm looking at the website right now. You
can go in drop in your your residence. I know
this is going to be available in the United States
and you can join the wait list right now, So
you guys should do that.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
Yes, when is this going to launch Marcos.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
It's officially launched. We're basically you're using our community users
right now as beta users, but I expect to release
officially to everybody from December fifteenth onwards.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
Okay, and then when when would it be publicly available?
Speaker 2 (05:03):
All right? So December fifteen, we're going to start putting
it out. The more the users that I mean, the
ones that joined the waiting list gets first, and we
progressively deliver throughout the Okay from fifteen words.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Okay, So I'm looking at a couple of things here.
When you look at more providers that are coming, I'm
looking at one of your our screenshots here, just showing
you know the way that this will work. Who's that
going to be? Could we see someone like a coinbase
or a robin hood in here.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
From this swap? You mean?
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Yes, like you've got here just for for transactions, you know,
in terms of availability. Right now, I can use mercurial
if I want to access funds, do we could we
get at some point Coinbase or robin here to be
able to access crypt you know, whether it's USDC or
other crypto funds that I want to move into an asset.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Base you and move via what connects your funds into
Tangent harborre wallet. We're I mean, and we don't connect
those wallets with the hardware wallets, right, So I mean
you can definitely transfer those funds to the spending account.
(06:18):
I mean, the channel will always be via the harbor
wallet and not directly from the hobbying hoods or the
coin basis to the spending accounts. And the only reason
is we still run the KYT on the original funds,
so everything. The way you have to look at the
difference between the storage and the spending is actually in
(06:44):
the spending. We are compliant with everything that we must
be compliant with in order to provide the services. So
it's it's almost like a separate business within a business
because we are running KYT, we're running KYC. We're making
sure the experience of the user is not going through
tons of documentations to just open a bank account to
(07:08):
get the funds in and then you can spend it.
So the idea is that within three to five minutes
you can move whatever you want to spend into that
spending account.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
Perfect.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
We do want you to use the Harbor wallet and
your harbore wallet account in order to go through this
process of spending.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
So, once I'm in the Tangent pay account, would I
be able to buy crypto within that using it like
where you could There's some cards out there where you
just can buy directly in off of the account itself.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Anything like that going to happen.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Basically, it's a visa card and accepts any terminal or
any one of the one hundred and thirty million merchants
all over the world that accepts visa. Right, So, if
you want to buy crypto using that card and simply
massive balance in that account, if you can actually within
the Tungent app, if you can switch between different assets today,
(08:02):
the answer is not yet okay, and simply because I
mean again, let's the purpose is. First, we have a
million users that holds substantial amount of money and they
often have difficulties to offer REMP simply because they have
very complex KYC that they have to go through in
(08:26):
all the countries that we basically serve. And the idea
is to reduce that first pain. Then from there there
is a second pain. I want to go and spend
in my local currency. I don't want to spend in
dollars when I live, you know, in Europe. Then we're
going to allow different types of stables for the different markets,
(08:47):
but the ideas always have stables in the spending account
because the actual wealth should be sitting in the hardware wallet.
We don't want to mix, We don't want to confuse
the purposes. If you want to store and grow, that's
where you should use, you know, the hardware wallet and
and all the security around to protect your wealth. The
(09:09):
spending is your weekly money, Your monthly money is your
daily money. You choose, and and and and that should
be available like a debit card, even though uh so
it's mimics. Is your your your bank essentially, so a
bit of what can is going.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
To Yeah, and so they're cracking is launching their debit cards.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
So when you're going to a retailer, will they see
it as a debit card or will they see it
as a credit card?
Speaker 2 (09:38):
They will see it as a credit card, but it
will behave like a debit card, a debit card.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
So this is kind of I'm not seen one of
these before.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
It is we are trying to make something again. The
way to disrupt the world is not by basically saying,
you know, let's re everyone and and and you know,
try to reinvent the will, try to reinvent the network,
trying to reinvent, you know, the point of sale. I
(10:09):
think there's substantial infrastructure out there that we can leverage.
So our idea is to interoperate with the existing infrastructure
and from that moment onwards offer the experience that we
want our users to have. So if it's a debit transaction,
(10:30):
you know, we want them to have that feeling of
debit transaction. If they want credit, we will offer credit
in sometime from now, still in twenty six, but I
want them to behave like this should be their card
for everything they do from now onwards.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Yeah, I want to, and it will roadmap at the end.
But I'm kind of curious, is is there any plan
to get a banking license? I mean, you've got a
credit card or a debit card here at some point
is there would you want an a BA routing where
people could use it for that?
Speaker 2 (11:02):
We definitely don't need that, and we are coming up
with a h wire transfer. Okay, We're coming up with
everything without the need of that license.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Okay, Well, if you're if you're getting we respecting a banker, Okay,
I like that I like that. One other thing I
wanted to hit on also in today's call was to
talk about Tangum yield, because that's that's a big move
forward for Tangum as a whole.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Now, you've got all of these stable coins being powered
by AVE, which is where the yield is working. You
guys have announced this. I'm kind of curious when you
go into AVE. I'm over here on the core instance
there you can kind of see all the stable coins
that are in there. R l U s D is
in there as well. Would I be able to earn
yield on my r l U s D inside Tangum.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Yeah, So we have usd C and usd T basically
on the ute right now. The idea is to actually
connect that to the spending account, so basically you have
balanced sitting in the spending account instead of just you know,
being there not accruing value to the user. The idea
is that basically that money goes directly to your yield account,
(12:18):
and then you can authorize transactions from that yield account.
So we're going to start linking all of this account
behind the scenes as users are interested on, so truly
behaving like a like a bank and normally bankers do
not give yields back on checking the account. Well, we
(12:41):
want to be slightly different in that concept.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
What blockchain are you guys running on for these transactions.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
Right now? Polygon? All right, and we've been criticized a
lot about that. Why Polygon? Why not other networks? But
I mean speed costs. We don't want our users to
pay gas fees on these transactions. One hundred dollars should
be one hundred dollars. And we have partnered with the
(13:08):
Polygon guys. They are supporting us in the I mean,
it behaves exactly like a card. It's two seconds, and
you're authorizing on chain balance. That's very important. This is
not off chain balance. This is on chain balance, so
the user are basically authorizing against it's the self custody account.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Okay, all right, these are all good things I think
as we see you guys, I mean we've we've of
course had you guys as a partner for a long time,
and I've seen the development of you know, a basic
you know, self custody wallet into a very active financial
instrument that is just continuing to grow.
Speaker 3 (13:50):
So kudos to everything you guys are doing.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
I'm kind of Okay, So let's take a look at
a couple other things we've We've had two things that
have played into this around payments. Part of this would
be in the area of point of sale terminals, things
like that you've got Burner, we had them on last week.
They're using kind of almost like a little gift card
to where you can use it as at a merchant.
(14:13):
With Tangium pay, you're going right into the visas system.
Is there a potential down the road where you could
somehow incorporate crypto into payment that could possibly link up
to a point a sale system that any retailer could
get access to.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
I will be blunt to answer not in the short term, okay,
and I don't see this happening in the next two
to three years. I would not spend time on this.
And it's not because the guys are doing something that
doesn't make sense. It's quite the country. I think it
makes a lot of sense. But our philosophy is to
disrupt within the existing infrastructure. Intropability allows users and adoption
(14:58):
to be a lot cheaper and faster. And the problem
I mean, I was the co CEO of a very
large financial business. We grew rapidly in fourteen countries, and
the acquiring side we had almost eight hundred thousand merchants.
(15:18):
And the problem of a merchant is, you know, they
are mamas and papa shops. They are not really familiar
with technology. They just want to receive as many currencies
as they can to sell more. They don't want to
think about different devices they want to They don't want
to think about different products. Like if you can give
them one device that transacts a thousand different types of currencies, perfect,
(15:40):
But if you give them five devices to make less
to cost lead, it's very difficult to make them adopt.
So in my view, using the network is great, and
I think there's a very misunderstanding of the cost and
the payments. Uh, these is not the main problem. The
(16:01):
problem is the tax stack of the banking industry. It's
from Cobo and mainframe, which were created in the sixties,
in the seventies, and the iPhone that my iPhone today
will probably be great in twenty thirty still needs to
talk to the nineteen sixties and nineteen seventies. So you
have so many aggregators, and today between a merchant and
(16:25):
a nicheer you have about fifteen players getting a little
slice of the transaction. So by introducing blockchain accounts in
connected into the visa network, we are able to go
back into that three party model, four party model, or
five party model in the worst case scenario. So I
(16:47):
think we have enough room to reduce the cost of
the transaction without having to go into the hardware or
re educating the merchants. And that's just a plea.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Yeah, if you can get to that level where you
can not only make it convenient but also change the cost,
even if it's just a fraction of a percent, that's
a big deal for a retailer overall. I think obviously
for the consumer side, you're hitting it, you know, in
terms of features though.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
That's normally you know the joke between the chicken and
the egg, Actually, yeah, it's always the egg. So in fact,
in the situation, you start from the issuing side because
that's the demand, and once the bin which is the
number associated with their card, touch the terminal, you can
recognize it's a stable account. From that moment, onward, Circle
(17:43):
or other tether decide to have a partnership with that merchant,
we can route the transaction than.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
That, right, there is a big okay, that changes my
thinking on this differently exactly, and then how merchants have
been able to deal with this in the past. That's
a very interesting point.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
You're just right, I think maybe.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
One tiny step deeper. Not to be too technical again,
but there's something called the single messaging and the dual messaging,
which are how do you deal with authorization, clearing and
settlement in a transaction? So authorize, okay, you can now
both take the goods, and once it's confirmed that transaction
(18:31):
was done by you through the authentication mechanisms, then you
settle with the schemes, so you clear and then you subtle.
The difference between single and dual is that single you
do authorization, clear and settlement in one message, and dual
you do authorizations separate from clearing and settlement. So we
(18:54):
can use the schemes to authorize because the network and
the infrastructures.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Already there, already there.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
But for clearing settlement you can make bilateral agreements with
stable providers, so you don't need to disrupt. You can
still use the schemes, and you can still use the
entire infrastructure of the work.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Exactly, you're something you're completely supplanting the old banking system
at that point, because then you would be looking at
a reroute on how that. I think the key there
is if retailers finally get to the point where there
they feel comfortable with stable coins, you're gonna be big
real retailers going to Tether and Circle and trying this
or someone like Ripple.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
All these guys would be able to do this.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
And maybe a little tip for those that think I'm
a bit crazy, look at Circle payment network well exactly
and try to try to, you know, understand behind the
scenes the move. So I am. I think I've been
in payments too long. I helped to create a lot
of the payment regulation all of the world, so I've
(19:58):
seen enough to understand that we can disrupt sufficiently just
by taking the garfields out before we actually replace technology.
So there's too many you know, people in between there
are not needed that you can just simply blik past them.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Are you at all worried about the Clarity Act here
in the US where if we get some pushback on
self custody. I think there's been questions about self custody.
There's a lot of Congress that are defending this adamantly.
Are you concerned about that at all?
Speaker 3 (20:32):
Right now?
Speaker 2 (20:36):
I mean right now not. I definitely think it's an
important topic. Obviously, we are supporters of the self custody.
The entire product is based on self custody. I am
a believer of choice, so open banking for me is
kind of a self custody concept. Yeah, because it's you know,
the data on chain should be freely moving from different
(20:58):
providers that I choose as a human. So self custody
is the only way for you to actually do this,
and it's full potential. But again, I actually think we
can work around this topic to get over with the authorities.
So hopefully we're called also to influence and this type
of topic. I'm behind the scenes trying to help as
(21:20):
much as possible for sure.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Last question to you, if you think about the centralized
exchange debit slash credit cards that are being touted out there,
what you guys have done is kind of combined the
idea of self custody with yield now along with tangrum
pay that kind of benefits both within one ecosystem. Do
you think the end of centralized exchange debit and credit
(21:45):
cards are coming near? Versus defiant self custody.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
I truly hope, because it's the most expensive mechanism a
user can have from a part, from the safety, security
and all the topics that we're all very familiar with.
I think it's just super costly. And the alternative that
we're bringing it behaves more as a typical financial institution
(22:13):
where users are going to feel more comfortable to migranting.
So if maybe I want to kind of paint a
little image of Dungeon where we're going so people can
kind of understand a bit of our vision. Imagine that,
you know, two hundred years ago, in Switzerland, we're a
Swiss business. People wanted to, you know, for through security
(22:39):
and safety. They wanted to bring their funds to Switzerland,
and then a manager would have a key and the
user would get a key, and then everything that you
put it in a safe could only be open with
those two keys. And then essentially you would go away
and then your muddy seeding there and you're totally, you know,
happy and secured that that was you know safe. Fast
(23:03):
forward two hundred years, we're replicating the exact same thing,
but without that manager. And what we learn in the
banking system is that one point it's not about just
keeping and storing funds in a secure place, but it's
also growing them over time and what products like they yields,
(23:24):
swaps and the different mechanims that we're bringing the Hopefully
we can come back here in one quarter to present
as well, it will be more about this growth and
this access to credit that users will be able to,
you know, increase their wealth, but at the same time
(23:45):
have the mechanims to spend the wealth. And then the
third block is actually the spending. So the eye buonds
the AH, the wire transfers, the peak skys, so whatever
it is for you to transfer, either because you want
to pay a rent or because you want to you know,
just use a debit card, credit card. So that is
(24:06):
the vision of Dungeum for twenty twenty six. Hopefully if
we can realize you know, fifty percent of that already,
I think our user base in our community is going
to be extremely excited about the banking rails of Fungeon.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
Yeah. Well, I've been watching you guys very closely.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Obviously was one of the reasons we partner with you
is the acceleration of new features, you know, because a
lot of companies kind of set on their hands. In blockchain,
they don't really come out with new products and services.
You guys have kind of been the opposite of that,
So kudos to what you guys are doing. Twenty twenty
six could be a big year for new stuff coming
from We're watching close on this one.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
Marcos.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Hey, it's been great having you on the show. Thank
you so much for coming in today. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
Thank you very much. Paul.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
You bet, all right, you guys, you bet. If you
guys know what to do.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
If you are not in our private member group, which
is the Bear and Market Eds, you guys should be
there absolutely free to join, and all you have to
do is click the link down below. We'll also leave
a link down there for Tangum because you guys can
get into self custody. If you haven't done it, you
should be doing that as well. Follow me on x
at Paul Baron. We'll catch the next sign right here
on the Paul Baron Show.
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